Military Review

The most hated German plane for the Soviet infantry, or again about the FW-189

183
"Focke-Wulf" model 189, better known to the domestic reader as the "frame", is perhaps the most widely known German aircraft of World War II. It is usually mentioned immediately after the Me-109 fighter and Ju-87 bomber. However, apart from the memoirs of the front-line soldiers, high-quality and publicly available studies on Fw-189 did not appear in the USSR before the 1991 year, and only in the last 15-20 years many works about it have been published. Much has been written about the features of the creation and technical characteristics of this machine, and even on the website "Military Review" there was a similar article. But it should be said that the Russian-speaking reader may not be so familiar with some features of combat use and some more points considered in the proposed article.


In the Russian literature, Fw-189 is referred to as a scout, spotter, gun driver, and “battlefield aircraft”, but this aircraft was classified by the Germans only as “nahauf klärungs flug zeug” (“tactical reconnaissance aircraft”) and belonged to the same class together with machines such as, for example, Henschel Hs-126, Hs-123, Fizeler Fi-156. True, according to its characteristics, he occupied a certain intermediate position between them and the category of “long-range high-altitude reconnaissance and high-speed bombers” (which included such machines as Ju-88, Ju-188, etc.).


A pair of Fw-189 from the Hungarian Air Force and from the Luftwaffe units in the camouflage of the Eastern Front of the early war period

Also a common misconception is the view of the Fw-189 as some kind of Luftwaffe super-airplane. In fact, this stereotype was formed due to three factors.

First, the veterans of the Red Army who survived the war simply did not remember the other, even more primitive tactical intelligence officers used by the Germans in 1941-1942.

Secondly, more effective and almost invulnerable to the Soviet fighter aviation other types of high-speed reconnaissance, mainly used by the Germans in 1943-1945, were hardly noticeable and difficult to recognize even for pilots, not like for ground forces. As a result of this, in the memoirs of our veterans, these types of Luftwaffe planes are mentioned only as “a German scout flew in the sky” or “German planes that scouted high above us”, etc. While the very characteristic silhouette of the “frame”, which mainly worked at low and medium heights, was clearly visible and easily recognizable.

Thirdly, the Soviet pilots, especially in 1941-1943, because of their (largely) poorly trained training, began to consider the Fw-189 a kind of honorary trophy and also contributed to the creation of the stereotype that the “frame” was then a super-plane. Of course, this is the brainchild of KB prominent German aircraft designer Kurt Tank It was distinguished by the highest survivability, and Soviet fighters in the first half of the war mainly had weak weapons. However, in favor of the opinion that the “frame” was, in general, a reasonably accessible target for a trained pilot, it is evidenced that the Soviet Air Force had 17 aces, on their account there were 4, and two even had 5 shot down Fw -189.

And even despite the fact that since 1943, many of the Fw-189 were withdrawn by the Germans from the front line or transferred to the allies, appearing on the Soviet-German front "frame" even in 1944-1945. continued to be considered exemplary trophies (for example, the great Soviet ace Alexander Pokryshkin said that the pilot who shot down Fw-189, as it were, passed a sort of exam for flight skills). However, starting from the spring-summer of 1943, the leadership of the Luftwaffe, focusing on the increased combat effectiveness of the Soviet air force, decided to abandon any low-speed tactical reconnaissance and light attack aircraft in the front line units, transferring them to the rear and using them as airplanes and for anti-partisan actions. At the same time, the basis of the front-line intelligence officers of Germany in the 1943-45. began to make high-altitude high-speed vehicles, the best modifications of which at high speeds, good rate of climb and a large practical ceiling (far exceeding in this Fw189) became extremely difficult targets for the Red Army Air Force. Therefore, the Soviet pilots, in fact, even the entire second half of the war still continued to hunt for rare enough on the front lines, but remaining the same low-altitude and slow-moving “frames”.

By the way, lovers of military equipment of the Second World War will be interested in the little-known fact that at the present time there is only one instance of Fw-189 in the world that carries out real flights. This machine, while carrying out a reconnaissance mission in the Soviet Arctic, was attacked by a group of Hurricanes on 4 on May 1943 of the year. And, although the plane received many holes, and one crew member was killed, the German pilots were still able to get away from their pursuers. True, it was not very far to leave - because of the failure of a number of systems, the crew was forced to make an emergency landing in the tundra, in which another crew member died, and the first pilot was injured (the damaged plane was going at a low altitude, he could no longer climb, and, accordingly, the crew did not have the opportunity to jump with parachutes). The surviving pilot was named Lothar Mothes. He avoided being caught by Soviet patrols and in two weeks, eating only berries and mushrooms, could still reach the German positions; He was placed in the hospital and after a few months he resumed his combat missions.

In 1991, his plane was found by the Russian-English search engine community and transferred to the UK for recovery. Over the course of several years, this Fw-189 was reconstructed and in 1996, the heavily aged, but war-surviving Lothar Motyes again sat at the helm of his own fighting vehicle (it was not the aircraft of the same type, but his own that flew). stories technology of the Second World War. Since then, this Fw-189, brought to a flightable state, periodically participates in historical airshows in the UK.

Now we will consider a question on quantity of the made cars of this type. Here the situation with the "frame" is very similar to the stories of some veterans and modern journalists, according to which almost any large German tank turns out to be a "Tiger", and any self-propelled guns - "Ferdinand", because, judging by the memoirs of Soviet front-line soldiers, the Germans were just thousands of Fw-189, literally constantly filling the sky and there were no other aerial reconnaissance aircraft. However, in reality, the situation was completely different: the cumulative figure of all built Fw-189 - 864 units, of which 830 are serial units, i.e. The “frame” was quite a medium-sized car (for example, the same “JU-87” laptezhnikov ”built at least 5709 units, and all types of Ju-88 of all types produced more than 15000).

And that, probably, will also seem surprising to the Russian reader, so this is what the Germans never considered the “frame” to be an outstanding aircraft, since they really had outstanding machines in abundance (for example, the same Messershmidt Me-262 and Arado Ar-234 ). The fact that the Fw-189 was a kind of "gray workhorse" is evidenced by the fact that the production facilities of the Focke-Wulf factory in Bremen, where the "frames" were originally made, in the middle of the war, it was decided to release for the production of "really necessary »Other types of aircraft. The assembly of Fw-189 was continued at two plants located not even in Germany, but in the territory of other countries - “Aero Vodochody” near Prague (still existing concern, known by such machines as, for example, L-39 and L-139 ) and at the Avions Marcel Bloch enterprise near Bordeaux (the future concern Dassault Aviation, which produced the famous Rafale fighters). Accordingly, in the Bogemia protectorate in 1940-1944. At least 337 was produced, and in Vichy France - 293 Fw-189, not counting non-serial samples.

Moreover, the Germans themselves believed that technically it was outdated by the beginning of the 1940-s aircraft, and this despite the fact that its serial production began in the year 1940. In fact, they released Fw-189 in 1940-1942. mostly forced, because more advanced types of air reconnaissance were at the stage of bringing to production. And exactly the same opinion was the Soviet delegation, which visited Germany as an ally of the USSR with the aim of purchasing new weapons in 1939. Paradoxically, but the Soviet technical representatives of Fw-189 were not interested in anything, except for an unusual design, and the Soviet test pilots "coolly" reacted to the "frame" on which they carried out test flights. As a result, thanks to such a serious underestimation of this machine, after World War II, some Soviet commanders, for example, Marshal Ivan Konev, could only complain that "throughout the war, our army did not have a single aircraft similar to the German Fw- 189.

And again we see a paradox: the Fw-189 (like the same Ju-87), a rather modest airplane in terms of flight data, but actively interacting with ground forces and easily recognizable by the enemy, becomes a characteristic “military brand”, while the more effective , faster and less vulnerable models remain in its shadow.

Having considered the issue of production, we turn to the issue of the combat use of the "frame". He is not as banal as it seems. Firstly, one of the common misconceptions is that Fw-189 was used only on the Soviet-German front, and only as a close reconnaissance aircraft. However, as long as the combat situation allowed, in 1941-1942. Several squadrons of the Fw-189 were actively used in parts of the Luftwaffe in the North African theater. For actions in North Africa, even the special “tropical” type Fw-189 Trop was created, equipped with anti-dust filters, special cabin light protection and a special unit for drinking water. However, after the Western allies seized air supremacy over North Africa and defeated the Axis forces near El Alamein in the autumn of 1942, and then the surrender of their armies in Tunisia in the spring of 1943 in Fw-189 in the Mediterranean. At the same time, this rather low-speed (max. Speed ​​350-430 km / h) and low-altitude (maximum practical ceiling 7000 m) machine was clearly not suitable for operations in Western European theaters.

However, their service on the Eastern Front, where initially the Red Army Air Forces were not sufficiently effective, was much longer. In general, however strange it may seem to the Russian reader, as of 22 June 1941, in parts of the German Air Force involved in Operation Barbarossa, there really wasn’t a single “frame”. But in November 1941, the first batch of Fw-189 was redeployed to act against the Red Army, and since December 1941, this aircraft has gradually become the main tactical reconnaissance officer of the Eastern Front. In the 1941 year, relying on the wishes from the front, they are created in the Kurt Tank Design Bureau, and in the 1942 year they are introduced into the series of modifications of the “frame” as a light attack aircraft with various types of reinforced weapons (they usually replaced two 20-mm guns in them) but there were other modifications). In addition to changes in the set of weapons, cockpit and main aircraft units in assault modifications covered armor, although this did not improve the already very mediocre flight data Fw-189.

It should be noted that the increase in the combat effectiveness of the Soviet Air Force in 1942-1943. primarily affected the most slow-moving German aircraft, and as already noted, since the summer of 1943, the “frames” are mainly reoriented towards fighting the partisans (which they successfully conducted in 1943-1944) not only in the occupied part of the USSR, but also in the territories of Yugoslavia and France). In this functional role, Fw-189 also proved to be as successful as earlier as a day-to-day tactical reconnaissance, primarily due to the absence of allied high-speed fighters in the rear areas and very weak anti-aircraft partisan equipment.


Fw-189 in autumn camouflage is fighting with Soviet fighters

In addition, some of the Fw-189 was transferred to the satellite countries of Germany: 14 machines were transferred to the Slovak Air Force; 16 machines were transferred to the Bulgarian Air Force; minimum 30 vehicles entered the Hungarian Air Force; several dozen aircraft entered the Romanian Air Force.

And according to practically unanimous reviews of pilots of these countries, the Fw-189 was a fairly stable and very tenacious aircraft, with an excellent overview and excellent navigation devices, the shortcomings of which were low speed and insufficient climb. And, however surprising it may seem again, but despite the small number of aircraft transferred by the Reich to their satellites, it was on the Eastern Front as part of the above-mentioned countries that they were able to successfully complete the war before they left the war (which indirectly confirms that Soviet fighter pilots even in the 1944-45 years nevertheless continued to remain fairly average qualifications). And the last sortie of the "frame" was generally carried out on the Eastern Front 8 of May 1945, when, it would seem, there should be no longer any conditions for its use ...

We have not yet considered all the options for the combat use of such a fairly versatile machine as the Fw-189. And although, in the opinion of the Soviet side, the “frame” produced the greatest impression as a neighbor intelligence officer, the Germans assessed his merit in this capacity rather meagerly, since for the second half of the war, the Luftwaffe had more efficient aircraft for this purpose. However, one of the main areas of its combat use, along with anti-partisan actions, in the second half of the Second World War was its use as a night air defense fighter.

Now let's try to dispel the misconception about the unofficial nicknames Fw-189. Of course, the Soviet soldiers called him "frame" ("crutch" - it was the nickname of other tactical intelligence officers, such as Hs-1265, Hs-123, Fi-156, which was "inherited" by Fw-189). In the Wehrmacht, Fw-189 was usually called the “flying eye” (however, it was the universal nickname for all reconnaissance aircraft). However, with the 1942-1943, with the transition of this aircraft to the night air defense missions, the nickname “owl” stuck to it. In Russian, the name of this bird does not have any ominous shades, in German its name “uhu” simply imitates the frightening cry of an owl, but, for example, in English the owl is called “eagle-owl” - “eagle-owl”, which emphasizes the predatory the nature of this bird.

By the way, it should be said that another German air defense aircraft also wore the nickname “eagle owl” - this was Heinkel He-219, a truly terrifying killer machine in the hands of an experienced pilot, much more effective as a “night hunter” than Fw-189 (although fortunately for the Allies, they were made smaller in 3 than even Fw-189, there are only 268 units, and the Germans did not use them on the Eastern Front).

It is also worth noting such a little-known fact, like the fact that in 1940-1942's. “Frame” was used as a “flying headquarters” by a number of Wehrmacht generals for personal reconnaissance of enemy positions. True, with the 1943 of the year, the top officers in Germany no longer took such a risk, using more advanced types of aircraft. In the spring of 1944 of the year, the Luftwaffe leadership issued a special circular that specifically prohibited the use of Fw-189 during the day in the front line, even with strong fighter cover.

Of course, due to the low speed and medium altitude, the “frame” turned out to be a mediocre night fighter of German air defense, but on the Eastern front in this capacity Fw-189 showed itself to the full. The fact is that before the war in the USSR several thousand small U-2 (Po-2) airplanes were built, used mainly as training machines (more than 33000 were produced, this was the second most massive Soviet war plane after IL-2). After a considerable part of them died in the summer of 1941 in the course of attempts to use this aircraft during the daytime storming of enemy columns, from autumn-winter 1941, Po-2 was transferred to the role of a night bomber, often with female pilots. That was the beginning of the famous night witch shelves. And precisely as a “night hunter” on light bombers, Fw-189, according to German estimates, showed itself very well. The first steps in this direction were made in the 1942 year, but the Fw-189 in the variant of the night air defense fighter began to be used en masse from the summer-autumn 1943.

Strange as it may seem, when describing the combat activities of the Po-2, Russian authors usually say nothing about the adequate response of the Luftwaffe to the massive night raids of light bombers. The fact is that since the 1942, the Germans have formed special “Stor kamf staffel” (“Battle Squadrons of Persecutors”) out of obsolete types of aircraft (mainly biplanes), which became ineffective in day operations and whose “night hunt for flying witch ". This squadron initially included the Fw-189 part. Later, from 1943, the “night hunters” of the Fw-189 were consolidated into their own special units, the Nahauf klarungs gruppe and the Nacht jagd gruppe, which they were used to until the end of the war.

As it turned out, the disadvantages of the “frame” in this role turned out to be advantages: excellent maneuverability and excellent visibility were successfully complemented by good stability in flight at all height ranges, including supersmall ones, and the possibility of flying at low speeds. The Fw-189 version of the “night hunter” version was equipped with a radar, a high-precision radio altimeter, weapons were added, and the “frames” converted in this way not only turned out to be an enemy of the Soviet infantry, but also the main killer of the Soviet “night witches” altitudes - this is the lack of altitude for parachuting, and therefore our girls pilots often did not even take a parachute with them to facilitate the aircraft).


Fw-189 Bulgarian Air Force on the Eastern Front

Combat use of the "frame" as a night fighter on the Eastern Front was carried out as follows.

1. When the Wehrmacht became aware that regiments of Soviet night light bombers were operating in this sector, a “squadron of nighttime pursuers” was called up, who had previously taken off at night to hunt. The Wehrmacht and air defense units were instructed not to use anti-aircraft guns and a searchlight, so as not to blind their aircraft and not accidentally knock down their own.

2. The German ground-based air defense systems detected and transmitted the direction of passage through the front line of the Po-2 group. Having received this information, Fw-189, already on duty in the air, such quiet "eagles-night owls", began to sneak up to the usually unseen Soviet pilots (who were blinded by the spark of their motor in the night mist, and the sound of foreign motors drowned out the sound of their own "coffee mill ").

3. It is possible that the Po-2 pilots, not seeing the lights of the searchlights and the work of the anti-aircraft guns, even calmed down, assuming that they were not noticed, and they successfully passed the front line. But the whole horror of the situation was that they were just noticed and night fighters opened their hunt for them. At the beginning, Fw-189 intercepted the Po-2 group with an airborne radar (sometimes even 2 radars working in different ranges were put on the “frame”), then visually and then attacked, often with almost no noise, in the planning. And of course, you can imagine what the Poe-2 did with the poor X-guns or four machine guns. Indeed, it can be said that such a method of attack caused an absolutely clear association with the eagle owl's night hunt.

By the way, the fact that the crew of Fw-189 consisted of three people, while working in the cockpit as a single team, in clear interaction with ground units, and having excellent equipment, played a very important role in detecting the target. At the same time, the pilot and the observer on the Po-2 sometimes just did not even hear each other, having the most primitive navigation equipment (and the pilots of light night bombers simply could not even dream of on-board radars).

And, probably, it is worth noting a very important point: the author never once mentioned in the reminiscences of the Soviet “night-maidens” who survived the war the Fw-189 attacks. This is simply an amazing fact, which testifies to the fact that, perhaps, our “light bombers”, our “light bombers”, actually did not really know the whole war! Although this is easily explained: apparently, those who have already seen the eagle owl attacking them in the darkness of the night could no longer tell anything more about it, and their partners thought that, apparently, their anti-aircraft guns shot down their friends. Some, apparently, thought that they were attacked by night Me-109s or described by some other types of Luftwaffe planes ... In general, one way or another, it was precisely in the role of the "night hunter" that Fw-189 turned out to be very effective exactly when he was almost unable to function as a day scout.


Light bomber Po-2 (Y-2) in battle

We now turn to the issue of losses Fw-189. The fact is that only Soviet pilots, and only fighter aircraft pilots, 795 claimed victories over Fw-189. Theoretically, it would seem possible, but then to the share of losses of the Reich air defense, North Africa, the "night hunters" of the Eastern Front, and most importantly, the losses from anti-aircraft fire from the ground and non-combat operational losses (which often amounted to 40% and even more from aircraft produced), there are only 60 aircraft, which is absolutely unrealistic, and therefore the issue requires further study.

At the end of our article, we will explain another myth about the “frame”: it is sometimes said that the Soviet pilot who shot down the “frame” was allegedly given an order. In fact, this was not (perhaps with some very rare exception), but almost always in the air regiment, where a successful fighter served, after the battle came a delegate from infantry formations, over which the shot down frame hung, and always handed the pilot a sincere thanks (mostly liquid) for the care of ground forces.
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  3. bionik
    bionik 28 March 2016 08: 30 New
    +7
    YouTube has a teaching film for fighter pilots of the USSR Air Force during the Second World War. Brief characteristics and methods of dealing with the German multipurpose tactical scout Fw189 "Rama" are given. Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nH_o-b5Qi8Q
    1. Now we are free
      Now we are free 28 March 2016 09: 38 New
      23
      Many thanks to the author for the article. Fw-189 is a legendary plane, and although he was on the side of the enemy in WWII, for example, I always aroused sincere interest and respect as an uncommon enemy covered with a veil of secrets and myths like the "Invincible Tigers / Invisible Ferdinands / Elusive U submarines" by the Dönitz Boys ".
      Thanks again for the fact that thanks to the article, the reason for the death of many of our pilots of light bomber PO-2s finally became clear to me ... It is unfortunate that fearless girls had practically no chance against the night hunter Fw-189, moreover, they simply they didn’t assume that it existed, and from the moment of the take-off of the fearless PO-2, its fate, like that of its beautiful crew, was predetermined ... sad sad sad.

      P.S. Everything aches in my chest from what I read, as if I found a grave and discovered the secret of the death of my idol / first love, even my childhood years (I really loved the characters Masha Popova and Zoya from "Only old men go to battle") ... Rest in peace as a pilot night bomber aircraft. Honor and praise to you "Night witches", bow to you to the ground for your courage and military work.
      1. miv110
        miv110 28 March 2016 10: 16 New
        31
        I could not resist and decided to answer. the author very artistically replicates the well-established legend about the women's shelves on the Po-2. I am forced to quote: "More than 60 regiments and squadrons of Po-2 * night bombers made up that air armada, which the Nazis did not expect to meet. And among all this mass of air units, contrary to popular belief, only the 46th Guards NBAP was All the rest are male. The misconception about the “femininity” of the U-2 is so deep that we have to use the term “male air regiment”, as if military aviation is not a man's business ... "(http://www.airpages.ru /ru/u2_1.shtml). In addition, it is completely unclear how effective the use of the Fw-189 as a night fighter was (nice, but nothing confirmed - not a single number or links to documents)
        1. bocsman
          bocsman 28 March 2016 11: 15 New
          14
          Quote: miv110
          I could not stand it and decided to answer. the author is very artistically replicating an established legend about women's regiments on Po-2.

          Here, here is replicating legends! And what a shame the Gebel's! Let's leave the technical characteristics and combat use of the described aircraft, but why sing "fascist songs" about the weakness of the Soviet Air Force about the "unfortunate" "Night Witches". There were no unfortunates there, everyone did their duty at the call of their hearts! Since he was understood - Voluntarily! And if you believe the author, the herd of sheep was seated in PO-2 and sent to slaughter! All pilots and navigators were exclusively volunteers and not from the street, but at least instructors from air clubs. How is it in the song "You don't need to feel sorry for us, and we would not spare anyone!"
          1. Andrey NM
            Andrey NM 28 March 2016 18: 25 New
            10
            In Russian, the name of this bird does not have any ominous shades, in German its name “uhu” simply imitates the frightening scream of an owl, but, for example, in English the owl is called “eagle-owl” - “night owl”, which emphasizes the predatory the nature of this bird.

            I think that "Vanka infantry" and the young girl at the handle of the Po-2 did not care deeply how the Germans translated the owl into English and how they "ugukala" at the same time.

            Strange as it may seem, when describing the combat activities of the Po-2, Russian authors usually say nothing about the adequate response of the Luftwaffe to the massive night raids of light bombers. The fact is that since the 1942, the Germans have formed special “Stor kamf staffel” (“Battle Squadrons of Persecutors”) out of obsolete types of aircraft (mainly biplanes), which became ineffective in day operations and whose “night hunt for flying witch ". This squadron initially included the Fw-189 part. Later, from 1943, the “night hunters” of the Fw-189 were consolidated into their own special units, the Nahauf klarungs gruppe and the Nacht jagd gruppe, which they were used to until the end of the war.

            Apparently, these "night hunters" were so "effective" and "adequate". Germans are very fond of bragging about their victories. Hartmans, Grislavsky, even rudels knocked down inept "ivans" in batches. How many "aces" flying on "frames" have we heard about?
            Throughout the war, three women's regiments were formed: the 586th fighter, 587th bomber and 588th (later 46th Guards) night lights. The night lights lost 32 people during the entire war. This is from October 1941 to May 9, 1945. 16 crews. The most difficult night for them was in August 1943, when they lost 4 crews, three of them were shot down by one Bf-110 G-2 fighter, and one by ground fire. The name of this German is known, he himself was forever "landed" by our pilots a month later.
            By-2 groups did not fly often at night, more often they worked on the target at intervals to hang over the target all night.
            ... they began to sneak up on Soviet female pilots who usually saw nothing (who were blinded by the sparks of their engine in the darkness of the night, and the sound of other people's engines drowned out the sound of their own "coffee mill")

            Pearl. Blind and deaf girls fly to bomb the enemy ... Well, they heard other people's motors, but they didn’t have enough to turn their heads to the sound of mind. Well, that's fine.
            1. stalkerwalker
              stalkerwalker 28 March 2016 18: 33 New
              +3
              I was touched by 2 radars on the Fw-189 laughing
              Where did they shove them in?
              wassat
              1. opus
                opus 28 March 2016 22: 20 New
                +2
                Quote: stalkerwalker
                I was touched by 2 radars on the Fw-189
                Where did they shove them in?

                Only one FuG-212 Liechtenstein C-1 radar with an unusual square shape of the dipole antenna on the "Wuhu" variants, after successful use on the "Owl" variant

                +
                schräge Musik (The MG-81Z machine gun in the rear of the cab was replaced by the MG-151/15 machine gun (sometimes MG-15/20))



                Radars were then:
                1. Kirill38
                  Kirill38 13 August 2017 05: 37 New
                  +1
                  Schrage-Music is that thing. Having received an airplane with such a thing from the factory, the Germans almost always removed it as an ineffective and weighting aircraft. And it's against the Lancaster! Try to get out of it into a single Po-2! (Survey at the radar-only forward, but not at the top)
            2. Warrior2015
              28 March 2016 19: 32 New
              +4
              Quote: Andrey NM
              I think that "Vanka infantry" and the young girl at the handle of the Po-2 did not care deeply how the Germans translated the owl into English and how they "ugukala" at the same time.

              But we are not infantry "Vanka" in the trenches and not young girls at the helm of Po-2 and we are analyzing combat use 70 years after the war?

              Quote: Andrey NM
              Pearl. Blind and deaf girls fly to bomb the enemy ... Well, they heard other people's motors, but they didn’t have enough to turn their heads to the sound of mind.
              I just described the situation how the battle pattern could have developed.
              1. Andrey NM
                Andrey NM 29 March 2016 02: 24 New
                +6
                There are wonderful collections of memoirs of night-night pilots. Veterans rarely mention fighters there, and these were mainly day flights or shot down against the background of the backlight.
                History has no subjunctive mood. How could and how happened - different things, no need to invent anything. Now one misfortune is that veterans are dying and there is nobody else to ask or check, so perversions on the Great Patriotic War begin.
        2. Amurets
          Amurets 28 March 2016 11: 15 New
          +5
          As far as I remember, M. Raskova formed three women's regiments: a regiment on Pe-2 planes; a fighter regiment and a regiment of night bombers. I don’t remember more than purely female regiments.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. bocsman
        bocsman 28 March 2016 10: 42 New
        23
        How unpleasant was the author's mention of the "not very effective" Soviet pilots even at the end of the war! So much has been written on this topic! Each type of air formations had their own tasks for bombers - to bomb from scouts - to conduct reconnaissance from attack aircraft - to storm, etc. And the fighters have to cover their actions! They were not faced with the task of knocking as many enemy aircraft as possible! Read the memoirs of Soviet pilots. Awarded for downed ones? Yes ! But the same for the successful completion of combat missions! And if the pilot, having shot down an enemy plane, allowed the loss of those planes whom he covered, he could well end up under a tribunal! Until now, "Goebel's" hundreds of lists of "downed" Soviet aircraft (we are convinced of the "truthfulness" of the Western world every day!) Do not take into account the tactical benefits of shooting down one or two cover aircraft, but at the same time allowing the bombing of bombers or attack aircraft targets. Well, Soviet fighters were not faced with the task of shooting hundreds of enemy aircraft. Although if the situation demanded it could do that. Examples are available. So I do not agree with the author about the "weakness" of our pilots!
        1. yehat
          yehat 29 March 2016 07: 56 New
          +1
          the author did not talk about weakness. But I said that we had big problems with coordination and quality of work of ground services. Because of this, each pilot at the right time in the war could make 3-4 flights less than a German. See how many sorties the Germans did on fighter jets and pieces.
          It happened that during active battles 1 German regiment of fighter jets made more than 4 of our sorties. This is not good - the Germans sometimes literally fell out of the cabs from fatigue and quite a few disasters and losses occurred precisely for this reason, but this was reflected in the statistics as a plus.
        2. Bogatyrev
          Bogatyrev 4 December 2018 00: 33 New
          0
          It must be said that the point here is not in the effectiveness of Soviet pilots, but in the fact that the Red Army Air Force practically did not practice "free hunting". The main missions were to escort bombers and attack aircraft and intercept the same enemy aircraft. The hunt for single targets and scouts was most likely carried out last. All planes were busy with the main work. Hence the vitality of the frame.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. siberalt
        siberalt 28 March 2016 13: 30 New
        +1
        It seems that it would be more correct to talk about the engineering thought of this aircraft. At least "two-tails" are held in high esteem now.
      6. hohol95
        hohol95 28 March 2016 23: 05 New
        0
        "Hateful" Frame "Fw 189" AUTHOR ANDREY KHARUK! Better read this book
      7. Kirill38
        Kirill38 13 August 2017 05: 40 New
        +1
        I did not read about the Luftwaffe aces on the Fw-189 that shot down a lot in 2! Very strange))
  4. Amurets
    Amurets 28 March 2016 08: 43 New
    +2
    The author is a plus. The machine’s analysis was done well. I was especially impressed by the use of the Fw-189 as a night fighter in the role. I would never have thought about this. I know that the Me-110, also with radar, was used as a night interceptor.
  5. EvilLion
    EvilLion 28 March 2016 08: 52 New
    18
    And what, 40's radars could see something on the background of the earth? It is for clipping the reflection from the ground that there are Doppler radars, and the attack and most importantly, the detection of a low-flying target like a helicopter (and the U-2 is still wooden to the heap, and most likely practically radio-transparent) is a very non-trivial task even for an 4 fighter th generation. It is very likely that the target will be detected earlier visually, with which at night there would be a problem.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 28 March 2016 09: 02 New
      +4
      Very well written and interesting material, even to me, a person far from aviation, it was interesting to read. I learned a lot.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 28 March 2016 23: 06 New
        +1
        "Hateful" Frame "Fw 189" AUTHOR ANDREY KHARUK! Better read this book!
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 28 March 2016 09: 02 New
      0
      Very well written and interesting material, even to me, a person far from aviation, it was interesting to read. I learned a lot.
    3. Warrior2015
      28 March 2016 09: 17 New
      +4
      Quote: EvilLion
      It is for clipping the reflection from the ground that there are Doppler radars, while the attack and most importantly, the detection of a low-flying target like a helicopter (and the U-2 to the heap is also wooden, and, most likely, almost transparent)
      Yes, you are absolutely right. In fact, it was possible to determine only by the radiation of the motor - and even then the approximate direction to the group. The Fw-189 was almost the only attempt of its kind. The rest of the night fighters on the Eastern Front, the Germans had various junk like He-51, low-speed and of course without any radar, with visual detection, but in general there were enough of them against Po-2.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 28 March 2016 09: 33 New
        +3
        At night, this rattler can be noticed only from some kind of "special effects" like the release of sparks or flame from the engine, but it can be detected from the ground, and there is a fig of a shooter.

        Duty in the air, with the rather dubious combat effectiveness of the U-2 themselves, which were more likely a worrying factor than a real threat, looks rather costly and stupid.
      2. TT62o
        TT62o 5 November 2018 13: 48 New
        0
        Radiation and reflection are slightly different things in radar. The motor, if radiates, then thermal energy.
    4. Now we are free
      Now we are free 28 March 2016 10: 45 New
      +2
      Although in several comments it is questioned that "Rama" was the cause of such significant losses among PO-2 due to the weakness of the radar against the background of the ground, I think it was still the reason why many PO-2 did not return from sorties. :
      account of the excellent review FW-189 (Almost all-glass cabin light +3 crew members)
      - attacks from above and not from the ground what are already used to in their night bombing PO-2
      -second volley that left no chance for PO-2
      -corrections from the ground (the article says about this that the "Owls" worked without rifle / searchlight assistance)
      -controllability of Fw-189 which, again, the PO-2 pilots did not expect from German planes at low / ultra-low altitudes from which the PO-2 worked. (Fw-189 was planned no worse than PO-2).
      - "Owls", as stated in the article, knew exactly where the PO-2 + would pass. They took off immediately after receiving a signal from the positions of the German troops about the passage of "Night Witches" over them.
      -As described in the article, visually detect the "Owl" planning on them and, accordingly, the PO-2 had no chance to dodge + I repeat, the "Owl" maneuvered by no means worse than the PO-2.
      -Pilots PO-2 (due to the action at low altitudes) did not take parachutes and, accordingly, witnesses who could tell who really shot them down ...

      I watched the story of one of the still living “night witches” on the Zvezda TV channel, and so she was just talking about what the worst thing for them was if a mysterious German night fighter came out on them. As an example, in just one night, he shot down three PO-2s without ground support ...
      1. yehat
        yehat 28 March 2016 11: 42 New
        0
        they didn’t take off to intercept !!! put yourself an il-2 and see how reluctantly the plane is gaining altitude and how leisurely it is. They would not have time in a trite !!
        on the other hand, the plane could take off for a barrage within 2-5 hours, which, in general, is enough,
        to wait for the attack.
        1. Warrior2015
          28 March 2016 19: 34 New
          0
          Quote: yehat
          they didn’t take off to intercept !!! put yourself an il-2 and see how reluctantly the plane is gaining altitude and how leisurely it is. They would not have time in a trite !!
          on the other hand, the plane could take off for a barrage within 2-5 hours, which, in general, is enough,

          By the way, this is exactly what I pointed out in the article - read it carefully. "Night hunters" were raised in the air in advance.
          1. yehat
            yehat 28 March 2016 22: 26 New
            +1
            it is not said to you)))
    5. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 11: 34 New
      +2
      in the 40s the radio waves were the same as now)))
      yes, it wasn’t so hot, but the search had to be literally 1-3 kilometers away, not further. I remind you that the radiation power drops in a cube from a distance. Compare this task with a radar in GAI. Not so difficult.
      I suppose there were problems in the exact bearing to the target, but an excellent overview helped here.
      1. Warrior2015
        28 March 2016 11: 57 New
        0
        Quote: yehat
        I suppose there were problems in the exact bearing to the target, but an excellent overview helped here.

        Yes, there were problems, and I am talking about it. But of all the "night hunters" on the Eastern Front, the Fw-189 was essentially the only one with a radar.
        1. stalkerwalker
          stalkerwalker 28 March 2016 18: 35 New
          +3
          Quote: Warrior2015
          The Fw-189 was essentially the only one with radar.

          And then laughing with two...
          Do not make me laugh...
          wassat
        2. Kirill38
          Kirill38 13 August 2017 05: 30 New
          +1
          Read at your leisure about the Luftwaffe counteracting night raids by British aviation. German night fighters were brought from the ground, and of course not by auditory sensations - but according to the data of Frey's radar (Würzburg to the heap)
      2. EvilLion
        EvilLion 28 March 2016 13: 02 New
        0
        The detection distance is proportional to the root of the 4 degree from the EPR.
        And the attenuation of any waves is proportional to the square of the distance.
        1. yehat
          yehat 28 March 2016 14: 17 New
          0
          2 in physics)))
          waves in a 3 dimensional medium propagate
          and at small such distances there is actually no reflection from the earth and atmospheric layers
          1. alean245
            alean245 29 March 2016 12: 50 New
            0
            2 in physics)))

            Yeah. You. Google the basic radar equation and the basic radio equation.
            and at small such distances there is actually no reflection from the earth and atmospheric layers

            belay No comments
            1. yehat
              yehat 29 March 2016 15: 17 New
              0
              twenty five again. Let me give you the Schrödinger equation and say that according to it, pink crocodiles fly in the sky! Each general theoretical equation has an agreed scope of fair application and there are assumptions that must be remembered when applying the equation! How many shkoloolo got burnt on college exams using mindlessly simplified equations from school?
              read at your leisure, and then shake the equations. What can be the reflection from the ground when the target object is several times closer to the radar than the reflection point "behind" the search object along the antenna focus axis? the second degree is valid for large distances in the atmosphere (moreover, the signal is reflected both from the ground and from ionized layers from the stratosphere and therefore propagates relatively flat) and for ONE-WAY communication - i.e. let it go, but did not accept the reflection. For a close location, the distribution is THREE-DIMENSIONAL and the requirements for the decrease in power are different, since it is required not only to send, but also to receive a reflection. Again, a lot depends on the characteristics of the directional antenna, and therefore the third degree is also not entirely accurate.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. alean245
                alean245 30 March 2016 14: 39 New
                -1
                twenty five again. Let me give you the Schrödinger equation and say that according to it, pink crocodiles fly in the sky!

                Forward. I really want to see it. laughing
                Every general theoretical equation has a specified scope of fair application and there are assumptions to keep in mind when applying the equation! How many shkololo burned out in college exams, applying mindlessly simplified equations from school? read at your leisure, and then shake the equations. What can be the reflection from the ground when the target object is several times closer to the radar than the reflection point "behind" the search object along the antenna focus axis?

                In Kogan's book, a short-range radar system is defined as a system with a range comparable to the size of interacting objects (in our case, aircraft). Strictly speaking, for a theoretical description of such a case, of course, it is necessary to solve the Maxwell system of equations. But, excuse me, the case of short-range radar for the "frame" and PO-2 is limited at best to tens of meters. If this is the range of the FW-189 radar, then why is such a radar needed at all? If there is any sense in using such a radar, then at a distance of kilometers (because it is difficult to imagine any other task other than search for a radar with such an antenna). Judging by the size of the radar antennas, their range is one meter or one decimeter. Considering the fact that the linear dimensions of such an antenna are of the order of the wavelength, the far zone for them starts from a distance of 10-100 wavelengths (i.e., a maximum of 100 meters). The theoretical equations of radar and radio communication for such distances are quite applicable. Of course, Shirman and other luminaries can be called shkololo and for such cases head-on solve the system of Maxwell's Equations, taking into account all the electrodynamic features of the target and the source of the field. You can, if you have a quantum super computer lying somewhere under your bed. You can also hammer nails with a microscope, etc.
                the second degree is valid for long distances in the atmosphere

                Everything is relative. For a healthy radio telescope, the far zone starts in the Earth’s orbit, for a symmetrical vibrator, the far zone can be considered with sufficient accuracy to be a region 20 times its length or more. In practice, the equations of radar and radio communications are quite successfully used for relatively small distances.
                (moreover, the signal is reflected both from the earth and from ionized layers from the stratosphere and therefore propagates relatively flat)

                Ionized layers are not in the stratosphere.
                Again, a lot depends on the characteristics of the directional antenna, and therefore the third degree is also not entirely accurate.

                And which one is accurate? smile
      3. gladcu2
        gladcu2 29 March 2016 13: 35 New
        +1
        yehat

        PO-2 low flying target. It is difficult to notice during the day against the background of the earth, and at night a timbol. Unless on secondary grounds. Such as exhaust, the red color of the heated exhaust gases from PO-2. On the other hand, with a full moon sky, the attacking plane itself is clearly visible.

        Attacking the night land is difficult. Radars will not give 3D projection. Determine the distance to the ground, visually not very, there is a risk of being stuck.
      4. gladcu2
        gladcu2 29 March 2016 13: 40 New
        0
        yehat

        Apparently from the ground suggest. The speed of PO-2 is not big. Indeed, the search radius can be reduced to effective limits.
        On the other hand there are no photos
        PV, with radar. Reflections on assumptions also lead away.
  6. Warrior2015
    28 March 2016 08: 57 New
    +1
    Quote: Amurets
    Particularly impressed with the role in the use of the Fw-189 as a night fighter.
    Dear Amurets, thank you! The problem is that I have not seen any mention of the Fw-189 in this role in our sources, while the Germans considered its use as a "night hunter" quite successful.


    Quote: Amurets
    I know that the Me-110, also with radar, was used as a night interceptor.
    You're getting ahead of myself, I'm working on the material. :) The fact is that they tried to use the "frame" in the night air defense of the Reich - but limited and not very successful, it was still rather slow and not particularly high-altitude. And the Me-110 was the main (but again not the best) "night hunter" in the German air defense. But it was practically not used in this capacity on the Eastern Front.
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 28 March 2016 09: 13 New
      +2
      Quote: Warrior2015
      And the Me-110 was the main (but again not the best) "night hunter" in the German air defense. But it was practically not used in this capacity on the Eastern Front.

      If you mentioned that there will be a sequel, I would not mention the Me-110. I first learned about the fact that the "Rama" was used as an interceptor from this article. I wish you success in writing new materials. I also want to add that during the Second World War During the war, suitable twin-engine aircraft were widely used precisely in the role of night fighter-interceptors: Pe-2; Pe-3; Mosquito; Lighting precisely because a radar could be installed in the nose, free of the engine.
    2. Cap.Morgan
      Cap.Morgan 28 March 2016 22: 50 New
      +1
      The use of the Yu-88 was more successful. The machine is big powerful, there is where to place radars and a battery of guns. Schrage music for example.
  7. baudolino
    baudolino 28 March 2016 09: 26 New
    +1
    Interesting article. Thank.
  8. Warrior2015
    28 March 2016 09: 32 New
    +2
    Quote: Amurets
    I also want to add that during the Second World War, suitable twin-engine aircraft were widely used precisely in the role of night fighter-interceptors: Pe-2; Pe-3; Mosquito; Lightning precisely because of the fact that in the bow, engine-free, it was possible put a radar.
    With pe-2 and pe-3, not everything is clear, primarily in terms of the quality of radars, and in general this was not particularly relevant on the Soviet-German front.

    But in Western Europe, yes. The Lightnings did not particularly show themselves in this capacity, and the Mosquito turned out to be the main enemy of the German "night lights".
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 28 March 2016 11: 23 New
      +3
      Quote: Warrior2015
      With pe-2 and pe-3, not everything is clear, primarily in terms of the quality of radars, and in general this was not particularly relevant on the Soviet-German front.

      Pe-2i and Pe-3, due to the small number of radars, were used only in the Moscow air defense zone. Pe-2i were in single copies during testing at the Air Force Research Institute and were limited in scope. Otherwise, I agree with you.
  9. Stas57
    Stas57 28 March 2016 09: 37 New
    +2
    Firstly, surviving war veterans of the Red Army simply did not remember the other, even more primitive tactical scouts used by the Germans in 1941-1942.

    Of course, the Fi 156 Storch and even the Hs-123 were the primary scouts of the initial period. Crutch ...

    this is what they say "Russians on Po2 shelves" flew - see Storch - the main messenger-reconnaissance aircraft of the Wehrmacht of the first half of WWII
  10. Warrior2015
    28 March 2016 09: 52 New
    +3
    Quote: Stas57
    of course the Fi 156 Storch and even the Hs-123 were the main scouts of the initial period. this is what they say "Russians on Po2 shelves" flew - see Storch-
    It's just that when the Red Army Air Force switched to night use of the Po-2, their losses sharply decreased (although to be honest, German pilots in 1942-1943 reached the point where they did not simply shoot down Po-2 if they saw a single car during the day, just for some of them well it was just a murder - and such cases are described by our veterans. It's just that in some squadrons of DAY fighters it got to the point that when the pilot, when flying out in the daytime, declared Po-2 as a victory, then, of course, they wrote down victory for him, but often they did not give him a hand) ... But at night, of course, no one spared the "night witches" ...

    Quote: Now we are free
    It is unfortunate that the fearless girls had practically no chance against the night hunter Fw-189, moreover, they simply did not assume that he existed and from the moment the take-off PO-2 took off, his fate as well as his beautiful crew was predetermined.
    It was this fact that shook me to the core when working on the material! Those. his most dangerous enemy in the air - and not know?!? I deliberately tried to find at least ONE mention of the actions of the Fw-189 as a "night hunter" in the Soviet memoirs of our "night witches" - and never met ...

    But the chances for the "night witches" were - firstly quantitatively - only a few hundred "frames" that were required literally everywhere and only a small part worked as "night hunters" - and tens of thousands of Po-2.

    Secondly - it was banal at night near the ground to find small nimble "sewing machines" was very difficult, even with a radar.

    Thirdly - Fw-189 - as a night hunter was a rarity, the bulk of German "night hunters" on the Eastern Front were also a few outdated biplanes, just as primitively equipped as the Po-2, and of which there were also an extremely small number.
    1. alebor
      alebor 28 March 2016 10: 42 New
      +4
      A little clarification.
      Calling all Po-2 pilots "night witches" is still a bit of an exaggeration. By 1943, up to 70 air regiments were formed, equipped with this type of aircraft, and only one of them was female. So, the probability that the plane was piloted by "witches" and not "sorcerers" or "magicians" was about 1/70 (which, of course, does not at all beg for the merits of the 46th Guards Taman Aviation Regiment).
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. bocsman
      bocsman 28 March 2016 10: 58 New
      +7
      Quote: Warrior2015
      just for some of them well it was just a murder

      Oh, what a "noble" enemy the Soviet pilots had !!! My friend, you've obviously read the memoirs of the beaten German "ases"! It is harmful to believe in Hitler's offspring! And especially about their nobility! Well, they were neither knights, let alone humanists. And they always knew how to breach. Like that kid with a fermented mug, - I put ten of them, and the twentieth just smashed his mug! They also chased single defenseless PO-2s and hit the pilots descending by parachute, tried to finish off the downed pilots on the ground, bombed and fired cannons at civilian refugees and hospitals. So do not attribute to these bastards something that has never happened! Especially from their words!
      1. Warrior2015
        28 March 2016 12: 02 New
        -4
        It seems to me that it is not worth it to utterly indiscriminately utter everyone — we are all people, and among people there are scum and bastards, and people of honor.

        Quote: bocsman
        so that it is not necessary to ascribe to these bastards something that has never happened! Especially from their words!

        Incidentally, the episodes in which German day fighters spared single Po-2s I took just the same from the memoirs of our veterans. Do you propose to consider this nonsense?

      2. gladcu2
        gladcu2 29 March 2016 13: 52 New
        0
        bocsnan

        It is very difficult to organize an attack on a low-speed, low-flying, maneuverable, tenacious target. The probability of being the victim himself is extremely significant. Therefore, suicide was meant. And they didn’t give in, because they didn’t believe, and who would specifically seek confirmation, the wreckage of a cheap plane made of plywood and stretch marks.

        Most likely so.
    4. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 12: 19 New
      12
      about the fact that the pilots of the Messers did not attack in 2 due to moral reasons, rather this is the exception. Many more reasons were that the Messerschmitt couldn’t maneuver and hang on the tail at a low altitude and very low speed in 2, and attacks on the aisle due to the difference in speeds and low altitudes were the causes of a series of bf109 crashes to the ground.
      Also, the weight of the volley was not enough for the Messerschmitt for a convenient shelling "on the pass."
      In addition, the declining messer risked being fired on from the ground or being below the Red Army fighters without the "energy" to escape the attack. If at that moment even the old I-16 or Lagg-3 was nearby, then the German pilot was at risk of not returning from the departure.

      That is why the pilots simply chose not to get involved with this "boodyag" and stay in a comfortable position in search of a less problematic attack.
    5. Proxima
      Proxima 28 March 2016 18: 38 New
      +8
      Quote: Warrior2015
      It’s just that in some squadrons of DAY Fighter aircraft it came to the point that when the pilot, when leaving in the daytime, declared Po-2 as a victory, then of course they recorded a victory, but often they didn’t give a hand)

      This is the same in which memoirs of the "blond knight of the Reich" did you subtract such nonsense? (If these are "memories of OUR VETERANS" - take the trouble to give a link - I DO NOT BELIEVE!). And for the bombed-out Red Cross trains, columns of refugees, for shot parachutists, etc. - no one gave them a hand either?!? Probably, they immediately put them against the wall ... Think what you write!
  11. AK64
    AK64 28 March 2016 10: 05 New
    +3
    Congratulations to the author with excellent material.

    Unfortunately, earlier in the USSR and Russia the role of this particular aircraft was somehow not considered. Most likely, because there was no similar machine --- and a coherent service, and even an understanding of this concept and role in battle --- did not exist.
    1. Taoist
      Taoist 28 March 2016 10: 38 New
      0
      You are not right. Take an interest in the work of IL-2 KR or the tasks that Su 2 solved ...
      Another question is that we greatly lost to the Germans in this regard from the organizational point of view.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 March 2016 12: 10 New
        +4
        Su-2, Il-2KR, American "Owl" Curtiss O-52, fighters ...
        In short, this topic was very problematic.

        "The reconnaissance aviation of the SA Air Force, consisting of 18 separate air squadrons and one regiment, is armed with Il-2 aircraft, which, due to their technical condition, do not ensure the fulfillment of the combat training tasks facing it.
        The IL-2 aircraft is not adapted for flying at night, in the clouds and in difficult weather conditions, therefore, the KRA flight personnel are deprived of the opportunity to improve in piloting technique and in combat use at night and in difficult weather conditions.
        On September 1, 1950, the KRA was equipped with serviceable IL-2 aircraft by only 83%, and the percentage of staffing is systematically reduced due to aircraft failure due to their deterioration and lack of replenishment with new aircraft.
        Based on the foregoing, I would consider it necessary to ask the USSR Council of Ministers to oblige the MAP to organize the serial production of the Su-1949 aircraft with the ASh-12FN engine tested in 82 during 1951-52. in the amount of 185 combat and 20 combat training aircraft "
        (c) Air Force Commander Colonel-General Zhigarev P.F.


        In July 1943, tactical and technical requirements for an army reconnaissance-spotter of artillery fire, November 1943. in KB P.O. Sukhoi completed the preliminary study of the project, and ... The topic died out. Until 1946

        Quote: Taoist
        Another question is that we greatly lost to the Germans in this regard from the organizational point of view.

        This is by no means true. On the contrary, in terms of organization they overtook, just traditionally did not have a specialized aircraft.

        This unacceptable situation manifested itself in the pre-war years, several "released" in the post-war years (Su-12, then Mi-1 KR, Mi-1TKR, Mi-2KR), and then the most powerful problems appeared again. A full-fledged replacement for the artillery spotter on the basis of the Mi-2 was never created, the helicopters based on the Mi-24 were not particularly suitable, on the basis of the Mi-8 they were redundant, therefore they were all created in scanty numbers. Up to the present. There is still no full-fledged UAV-spotter of artillery fire, although there are a lot of proposals.
    2. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 11: 26 New
      +4
      the frame could only be knocked down by a pilot who had fully learned the basics of air combat, attacks "on the pass" and well-coordinated work in pairs. 60 percent of combatant fighter pilots did not have sufficient qualifications to reliably and without a high risk of knocking down a "frame", often a hunting couple, when hunting for a frame, lost one car, but did not always shoot down the target. And at the beginning of the war, because of the statute, which actually prohibited free hunting, the lack of walkie-talkies, etc. the frame was very rarely knocked down.
  12. Taoist
    Taoist 28 March 2016 10: 35 New
    +6
    Well, in fact, although "Rama" became a kind of symbolic plane of the Second World War (along with Laptezhnik), I would not write off everything only "for hunting stories". First, the Rams often not only conducted tactical reconnaissance, but also adjusted the artillery fire. The spotter was always very carefully covered by both fighters and anti-aircraft fire. With its high maneuverability, excellent visibility and a crew of three, the frame was a difficult and dangerous target - in any case, when I was in the IL-2 squad, the attack on the frame was part of the mandatory examination program. Even AI was a daunting task. It is clear that this is a simulation - but even in the simulation, the back became wet at times ...
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 11: 48 New
      +2
      you can confidently shoot down the frame for instant-3 or yak-1 after 4-5 attempts in the il-2 simulator, it is not so difficult. the main thing is simply not to follow the direct course of rapprochement from behind.
      the problem was different - because of the review, the frame quickly detected the pursuer and began the evasion maneuver, including going under the cover of air defense batteries. And a couple of fighters (loners were forbidden to attack) had time from strength to 2-3 attacks (tanks not rubber), from which the frame had a good chance to escape by maneuver.
    2. Warrior2015
      28 March 2016 19: 40 New
      0
      Quote: Taoist
      Firstly, Rama often not only conducted tactical reconnaissance but also corrected artillery fire. The proofreader was always very carefully covered by both fighters and anti-aircraft fire.

      As it turned out, in 1941-42. - they didn’t cover very tightly, and on the whole it was enough. But starting from 1943, even covering with fighters did not help, and since 1944 there was a direct indication that the Fw-189 should not be used in the front line during the day (i.e. during the day - only rear operations and at night - hunting).
  13. belovur
    belovur 28 March 2016 10: 54 New
    +3
    The article is informative, but the author, with such a "breath", talks about German aviation, and vice versa with disdain for Soviet aviation, which immediately becomes clear. from what "sources" the information was used!
    1. Warrior2015
      28 March 2016 12: 29 New
      0
      Quote: belovur
      The article is informative, but the author, with such a "breath", talks about German aviation, and vice versa with disdain for Soviet aviation, which immediately becomes clear. from what "sources" the information was used!

      And forgive me from what sources was the information taken when, 70 years after the war, Soviet authors did not even try to understand the topic, but only "beat drums and blew into pipes"? and what to do if the fact that the Germans have squadrons of "night hunters" is a revelation for the Russian reader?
      1. Taoist
        Taoist 28 March 2016 13: 33 New
        +4
        Well, I would not sign for all "Russian readers" ... Since childhood, I have been collecting military memoirs and other military literature ... And taking into account the fact that my childhood is the 70s ... For me personally, a lot of what is now they say with such a "breath" was the "open secret". It later became fashionable to pass off generally banal things as "exposing" ... Much was known in the USSR and was quite accessible - only it was necessary to know where to look ... Well, there were definitely no outright lies like "rezun" on the shelves ...
        There were such wonderful stores in the USSR - "Military Book" was called. Almost everything could be found there. Another question is that as a rule it was not "scientific pop" as it is now, but special literature.
        1. Cap.Morgan
          Cap.Morgan 28 March 2016 15: 48 New
          -2
          Quote: Taoist
          Well, I would not sign for all "Russian readers" ... Since childhood, I have been collecting military memoirs and other military literature ... And taking into account the fact that my childhood is the 70s ... For me personally, a lot of what is now they say with such a "breath" was the "open secret". It later became fashionable to pass off generally banal things as "exposing" ... Much was known in the USSR and was quite accessible - only it was necessary to know where to look ... Well, there were definitely no outright lies like "rezun" on the shelves ...
          There were such wonderful stores in the USSR - "Military Book" was called. Almost everything could be found there. Another question is that as a rule it was not "scientific pop" as it is now, but special literature.

          How do you distinguish lies from a rezun lie Sovinformburo?
          Multiple superiority in tanks and aircraft over the Germans was an open secret for you, for example? Did you already know about this then? Why were you silent !!!
          Yes, in the wonderful War Book stores in scarlet binders with gold stamping were the works of Marx, Lenin, Engels, materials of congresses and party conferences, a corner of the agitator ...
          Any worthwhile literature had to be subscribed .... it simply wasn’t.
          I do not know what you mean by the words "you could find almost everything."
          A series of pioneer heroes?
          Could you, for example, buy the "Encyclopedia of Tanks" like now?
          No no and one more time no.
          There were very, very serious problems with books in the USSR.
          For example, there were definitely no Western authors. So how then to make an objective picture?
          1. Taoist
            Taoist 28 March 2016 16: 07 New
            +3
            You know, it's easy to tell the difference ... I am aware of the problems with books in the USSR, but I can hardly find much that I have in my library (and bought in those years). Published in our country and foreign authors (not in mass circulation. Yes, but published) E. Roskill's monograph for example "Fleet and War" I grabbed if memory serves in 1976 ... Yes, and I remember Manstein's memoirs somewhere at the same time. .. (yes, with the appropriate comment, of course, but they were published in the USSR) Later, when I was already studying at a military school, I sent books home with parcels for the entire cadet's salary, there were so many books on the topic in our military shop and no one bought ...
            Desire should have been simple. But just the Rezunoids for illiteracy and beat ... Unfortunately, Google does not replace brains ...
          2. Alf
            Alf 28 March 2016 19: 21 New
            0
            Quote: Cap.Morgan
            For example, there were definitely no Western authors.

            In the mid-50s in the USSR there was a powerful ejection of memoirs of German generals. There was Manstein (lost victories) and Guderian, etc. Those who wanted could make a decent library.
            1. Cap.Morgan
              Cap.Morgan 28 March 2016 23: 00 New
              +1
              Quote: Alf
              Quote: Cap.Morgan
              For example, there were definitely no Western authors.

              In the mid-50s in the USSR there was a powerful ejection of memoirs of German generals. There was Manstein (lost victories) and Guderian, etc. Those who wanted could make a decent library.

              Only these books did not stand on the shelves of the store. Not in every library they could be taken to read. In the mid-50s, books for a brief period really appeared, but they were quickly snapped up.
              I could only boast of the memoirs of Zhukov, Kovpak, Medvedev, Babadzhanyan ...
              Nekrasov also had "In the trenches of Stalingrad" and a book about the defense of Moscow ....
          3. yehat
            yehat 29 March 2016 07: 48 New
            0
            Quote: Cap.Morgan

            How do you distinguish lies from a rezun lie Sovinformburo?

            everything is simple. when you read real memoirs without slogans and written in a simple unprofessional language, this is usually true.
            in addition, there are / were veterans in the families who also told something.
        2. gladcu2
          gladcu2 29 March 2016 14: 02 New
          0
          Taoist

          Unfortunately I have to argue with you. Your age, also read enough military memoirs. Technician of youth and young technicians.
          The information was the same and not widely available. There were many stereotypes. Naturally, censorship, and without it in any way, is the strategic security of the state.

          That is, Ratnik’s article can be attributed to the category of opinions, but publications of other authors confirming the opinion should be classified as knowledge.
      2. bocsman
        bocsman 28 March 2016 14: 21 New
        0
        Quote: Warrior2015
        and what to do if the fact that the Germans have squadrons of "night hunters" is a revelation for the Russian reader?


        This is not true. The memoirs and not only specifically indicate the presence of Hitler Air Force night units. But the revelation for me was the ennobling of the Luftwaffe.

        Ну I would not sign for all "Russian readers"
        Much in the USSR was known and quite accessible - you just had to know where to look ... Well, there were definitely no open lies like "rezun" on the shelves ...

        Here is the answer. From a competent person.
        1. samoletil18
          samoletil18 29 March 2016 07: 45 New
          0
          In the libraries, memoirs of both our military commanders and foreigners in Soviet times were pretty battered. Zachachit, there was interest. Moreover, the departments in the libraries were by age. Consequently, interest was at all ages. In 1983 in Volgograd I bought a book about the partisan movement in those places. I acquired it only because of the lack of awareness of this in those places: the steppes, and the partisans for me then could only live in the forests. By the fortieth anniversary of the Battle of Stalingrad, there was some magnificence in bookstores: only the teenager had little money. But the book remained with the parents - the younger sister studied at the historian. But my ancestors from dispossessed, she was engaged in collectivization. I somehow spoke with her why I didn’t take up the war when I was writing my dissertation, because my great-grandfather was surrounded near Stalingrad right from the train, on the way to the place of formation. And while they did not drink the swamp and ate everything, right down to the tadpoles, fighting off with batons, exhausted, they were captured. Two shoots. The first failed, the Kalmyks passed. That’s all we know. It turned out she also did this. And I found only an article in one of the central newspapers of the perestroika era, with the corresponding subtext, apparently, the people are a hero, and the top is gouging. Mom’s information on this issue is also not very much. He tried to clarify something in his youth. It turned out that there were many such echelons during the German offensives.
          Who knows, maybe the same scout from the air pointed to that echelon, or discovered where the railway can be cut without much resistance.
        2. AK64
          AK64 30 March 2016 02: 07 New
          0
          From a competent person.


          / cute smile /
          Doesn’t it make mistakes in words?
    2. AK64
      AK64 28 March 2016 12: 32 New
      +2
      The article is informative, but the author, with such a "breath", talks about German aviation, and vice versa with disdain for Soviet aviation, which immediately becomes clear. from what "sources" the information was used!


      Bullet fool - well done bayonet!
  14. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 28 March 2016 11: 18 New
    +4
    In general, no matter how strange it may seem to the Russian reader, on June 22, 1941, there really were not a single “frame” in the German Air Force units involved in Operation Barbarossa.

    Funny but in the book Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organizational and Statistical Analysis and Military Simulation (Volume IIA) it is alleged that on the eve of Barbarossa, the German group in the East had 8 Heeresaufklärung Staffels, fully equipped with FW 189 (5 of them were in the Luftflotte 2, which supported GA "Center"). Another 10 Heeresaufklärung Staffels were partially equipped with "frames".
    And that on 21.06.41/416/XNUMX the "frames" accounted for a quarter of XNUMX close reconnaissance and liaison aircraft of the backlash in the East.
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 12: 00 New
      0
      it is not true. At the beginning of the war on June 22, the Germans in aviation had all sorts of trash, like the he-51 and so on. Moreover, in the state of reconnaissance aircraft in the army there were NO frames at all. The main scouts were heinkels and fizlers. Due to the lack of reconnaissance aircraft, the bf-109e and bf-109f were often helped. Guderian writes in his memoirs that the 109th fighter regiment for a month and a half performed all the functions of its troops — fighters, reconnaissance, and attack aircraft. There are quite a few frames of the chronicle, where close storms of the advancing part are carried out by light storms 50-100m above the ground (they have a speed of no higher than 150km / h)
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 28 March 2016 12: 46 New
        +3
        Quote: yehat
        it is not true. At the beginning of the war on June 22, the Germans in aviation had all sorts of trash, like the he-51 and so on. Moreover, in the state of reconnaissance aircraft in the army there were NO frames at all. The main scouts were heinkels and fizlers. Due to the lack of reconnaissance aircraft, the bf-109e and bf-109f were often helped.

        You see what is the matter ... if in the summer of 1941 there were no "frames" on the Eastern Front, then how did these "frames" end up in the lists and tables damaged or lost on 22.06.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX? what
        For example, board w / n 0057 (5J + BH):
        1 (H) 31, bei Grodno, FW189A-1, w / n 0057 (5J + BH), 100%
        Or board w / n 0158:
        1 (H) 31, (Grodno), Fw189, w / n 0158, 0%

        In addition, according to the same Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organizational and Statistical Analysis and Military Simulation (Volume IIB)For example, 1. (H) / 31 on June 21, 1941 had 12 FW-189s. The same number - in 1. (H) / 12. And 3. (Pz) / 23 and 2. (H) / 13 had a mixed composition of "frames" and "crutches".
        1. yehat
          yehat 28 March 2016 13: 04 New
          +1
          if we are talking about the fact that 1 (H) 31 was based in Carolyn near Brest in Belarus in 41, then I have the impression that we are only talking about the 2nd month of the war. Because the basing was far from that (Nellingen, Feb 1941 - they only got new cars there), and according to Guderian’s memoirs, it was precisely in the first 2 months that he was deprived of effective reconnaissance due to a shortage of aircraft and he had to regularly ask in violation of his charter a friend who commanded a regiment of fighters. Then, the front was very deep, went away from the bases and it was at this time that the frame was in place.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 28 March 2016 15: 39 New
            +3
            Quote: yehat
            according to Guderian’s memoirs, it was precisely in the first 2 months that he was deprived of effective intelligence due to a shortage of aircraft and he had to regularly ask in violation of the charter of his friend, who commanded the regiment of fighters

            Guderian, as it were, to put it mildly, has no special faith. He, like any memoirist, loves to shift his doorposts to neighbors, bosses and the enemy. smile
            Mtsensk alone is worth something - when "typical example of backward Bolshevik technology"suddenly turned into a tank flying through the mud with impenetrable armor and an all-devastating cannon. smile
            Or "specially created at the request of Guderian commission for the study of T-34"which turned into an ordinary planned"Commission for the Study of the Use of German Tanks on the Ostfront".
            1. Stas57
              Stas57 29 March 2016 17: 26 New
              0
              Mtsensk alone is worth something - when "a typical example of backward Bolshevik technology" suddenly turned into a tank flying through the mud with impenetrable armor and an all-devastating gun. smile
              Or "a commission for the study of the T-34, specially created at the request of Guderian," which actually turned into an ordinary planned "commission for the study of the use of German tanks on the Ostfront."

              everything is not so simple there
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 March 2016 12: 18 New
      +1
      The Germans also had problems with the materiel 8)))

      The Henschel Hs-126s were forcedly used for correction (only in the first three months of the war, the total losses in downed and damaged ones amounted to about 80 aircraft) and even the Fi 156 "Storh"
  15. rubin6286
    rubin6286 28 March 2016 11: 31 New
    +5
    The author’s article repeats a number of detailed publications on the features of the creation and technical characteristics of the plane of World War II - the German close reconnaissance and artillery spotter Fokke-Wulf-189, nicknamed “Rama” on the Eastern Front, and in this sense is of no interest.
    The story about the peculiarities of combat use is based on “literary fabrications” written off or subtracted from various sources (about “night battles” with Po-2, poor training of Soviet pilots, arrival at the air regiment, where a fighter who shot down “Rama” “a delegate from“ infantry units ”, for giving the pilot sincere gratitude (mostly liquid) for taking care of the ground forces”, etc. etc.), generating polemic comments, i.e. exchange of opinions of people who have read a lot or a little on the proposed topic.

    So why, nevertheless, not the Yu-87 dive, the Messerschmitt fighter, namely the FV-189 was for the Soviet infantry the most hated German aircraft ?. Why was it tenacious and very stable?

    The author should pay more attention to the technical aspect of the topic. To do this, you need to have some technical knowledge. Speaking about the survivability of the aircraft, you need to tell what is meant by this term, how is it provided in general and how is it organized on this machine? Similarly, with the concept of "stability of the aircraft." Explain to readers what a broken flight profile is, what it affects and what additional benefits does the crew give over the battlefield?

    I could tell about it myself, but it is not my plan to organize a "educational program" for young people.
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 12: 50 New
      +3
      the frame earned the hatred of the infantry because, according to its intelligence, shelling or an air raid was usually very accurate. In addition, she could hang over her head for hours. It was because of this that she was so hated. The fact is that at the end of 41 and in 42, often camouflage was the only way to repel the German attack and survive, and the frame minimized this possibility.
      Messers infantry were on the drum. And they were more likely afraid than hated.
    2. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 16: 08 New
      +1
      about "stories" and "literary fabrications"
      about the poor training of pilots: I managed to read something first hand, including one ace from the Leningrad fighter regiment. he told a lot of things. Their regiment was based where the Electrosila factory in St. Petersburg was located. About the training of pilots of the Air Force.
      1. Learning before the war. In their elite part of the fighters there were only THREE pilots who controlled the i-16 well and were versed in battle tactics, despite the experience gained in Spain, Mongolia and China. And I remind you that the i-16 was a difficult machine and its ownership was considered a measure of maturity and skill. Of these three, two were unit commanders. The rest were ordinary pilots who mainly flew the i-15 and tried to master the MiG-1. There was not one who, on June 22, was able to fly well on new types of aircraft. NO ONE!!!
      2. Until 44, fighters suffered heavy losses, and by the end of 42, the old charter also interfered significantly. This greatly influenced the survival of pilots and the accumulation of experience.
      3. The Air Force had very serious problems with the tactics of using machines - if the traditions of piloting were very serious, the tactics of using fighters were somewhat backward - building with deuces appeared relatively recently, coordination from the ground and the work of services at airfields were a very weak spot. This all led to the fact that our Air Force very rarely could really take advantage of the numerical superiority.
      4. Shooting training. In order to accelerate training, shooting training was conducted very weakly and sometimes only theoretically. Many novice pilots let out all their ammunition to no avail.
      5. navigation. There were no radio compasses on the fighters and often either no radios or they worked poorly. There was no special navigational training. Often an experienced officer led the battle, and the rest just behind him and on the way back after the battle, many could not find the airfield, there were altogether landing on the enemy airfield.
      6. The problem with LAgg-3 is characteristic. This plane required thoughtful piloting without loss of speed, and many pilots did not know how to do this, which is why they lost to the Germans in battle and therefore called the car a lacquered coffin. There is a lack of skill.
      7. Many pilots did not know how to use additional wing mechanization, engine adjustment during flight, etc.

      In general, there were problems in the training of pilots and there were many of them. And the cars, unlike the German ones, had less automation and, at times, had unpleasant features (like splashing glass with oil, overheating the cabin, weak wings on the Yak-1, a sight that could kill during a hard landing, jamming the cabin, instability of the cobra and etc.), which took away part of the pilots' attention.
      1. hohol95
        hohol95 28 March 2016 23: 13 New
        +1
        Let me ask you - These three pilots were not by chance A.K. Antonenko; Brinko P.A. and Golubev V.F.? Or are they not? And who then brought down the Finns over Hanko and the "green-hearted" over Leningrad? And how, with such training, the Red Army Air Force could survive in the winter of 1941?
    3. Fayter
      Fayter 1 November 2018 21: 32 New
      0
      And if you ask, please, would I personally be very interested?
      It was not in vain that they played tank games; they aroused such a great interest among youth in military history, and this is evidenced by the large number of visitors to museums and exhibitions.
  16. sevtrash
    sevtrash 28 March 2016 12: 04 New
    +2
    Thanks for the article, information new to me, I have not read it before, though I have not looked for it.
    Regarding radars and attacks from above on low-flying Po2 - in those days, could radars distinguish a target from the background of the earth?
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 19: 42 New
      0
      Damn got their templates !!!
      modern planes see this far and for them reflection from the ground is important
      and when the distance to the target is 500-2000m, the target is visible in contrast, because reflection from it is many times more powerful. Another thing if you look at a plane from 10 km, which is 200 m from the ground - then reflection from the ground already has a close in power order of radiation with reflection from the target.
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 28 March 2016 20: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: yehat
        Damn got their templates !!!
        modern planes see this far and for them reflection from the ground is important
        and when the distance to the target is 500-2000m, the target is visible in contrast, because reflection from it is many times more powerful. Another thing if you look at a plane from 10 km, which is 200 m from the ground - then reflection from the ground already has a close in power order of radiation with reflection from the target.


        ... The main types of ground-based German radar installations are the Fraya type radars, the large and small Würzburg, and the Hording radars. Aircraft radar installation - type "Liechtenstein".
        It should be noted that the fighter’s radio sight (Liechtenstein type locator) has a depth of up to 8000 m, depending on the flight altitude. At altitudes below 3 m, it is practically of little use, since at a viewing angle of 000 °, which this device has, at a low height, strokes (pulses) from ground objects appear on the oscilloscope screen. Roughly speaking, target detection using the Liechtenstein instrument is possible to a depth proportional to the flight altitude. For example, at a flight altitude of 30 m, the locator detects a target at an average distance of 4000 m.

        Fighters armed with a Liechtenstein-type aircraft radar are what the Germans call the "cat's eye." For the most part, Liechtenstein instruments are installed on multi-seat fighter-interceptors and “cruisers” “Yu 88”, “S-6” and “Me-110”, operating on the principle of free flight - target search.
        Having a good connection with the ground, fighter interceptors are roughly guided by ground-based location installations on our aircraft. At the entrance to the coverage area of ​​the aircraft locator (at a distance of 4-000 m, depending on the flight altitude), the fighter turns it on and goes closer to the bomber. From a distance of 8-000 m, he opens sighting fire in sight ...

        ... Our aircraft can and should also use the disadvantages of a Liechtenstein-type radio sight, which at altitudes of less than 3 and due to the reflection of ground objects gives very inaccurate readings ...
        http://www.airpages.ru/lw/vvf_1944_19_2.shtml

        Do you have other information? Please provide a link? Or, in your opinion, was there another radar? give a link? Or does your "Template" not allow?
        1. yehat
          yehat 28 March 2016 20: 41 New
          0
          yes others. we are talking about detection at distances of not more than 2 km and a small difference in height
          (no more than 200-300m)
          in the same way, the angle of view is more than sufficient. because the target at such a distance is CONTRAST.
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 28 March 2016 21: 01 New
            0
            Quote: yehat
            yes others. we are talking about detection at distances of not more than 2 km and a small difference in height
            (no more than 200-300m)
            in the same way, the angle of view is more than sufficient. because the target at such a distance is CONTRAST.


            Besides your views / "templates", can you provide a link about the effectiveness of Liechtenstein for low-altitude targets?
      2. sevtrash
        sevtrash 28 March 2016 20: 20 New
        +1
        The first generation of radar systems, which appeared during World War II, made it possible to only approximately estimate the range to the target and the direction to the right / left and higher / lower and only at short range. The antenna was made in the form of arrays of fixed pin antennas, separately receivers and emitters. The radar allowed only to bring the interceptor to the target area, then the detection and the attack itself were carried out visually. At the end of the war, parabolic antennas appeared, which made it possible to more accurately assess the distance and direction to the target.
        http://wap.tsushima8.borda.ru/?1-5-0-00000016-000-0-0-1207586470
  17. Warrior2015
    28 March 2016 12: 16 New
    0
    Quote: yehat
    you can confidently shoot down the frame for instant-3 or yak-1 after 4-5 attempts in the il-2 simulator, it is not so difficult. the main thing is simply not to follow the direct course of rapprochement from behind.
    It was best to use a group of fighters when attacking from different directions. But the skill level often did not allow this - the article provides an example when the "frame" was able to survive the attack of a whole group of Lendleigh Hurricanes.

    Quote: miv110
    In addition, it is completely not clear yet how effective was the use of the Fw-189 as a night fighter
    In terms of numerical indicators - most likely very mediocre. Just against the background of a heap of outdated biplanes in the squadrons of "night pursuers" - still a little higher.

    Quote: bocsman
    All the pilots and the navigator were exclusively volunteers and not from the street but at least instructors from air clubs.
    Yah ? truth ? and do you believe that? at all Po-2 to seat instructors from air clubs - while untrained greenery even planted on IL2?!?

    Quote: Taoist
    Possessing high maneuverability, excellent visibility and a crew of three people, the frame was a difficult and dangerous target - in any case, when I was in the squad (IL-2), an attack on the frame was part of the mandatory examination program.
    And the article just pointed out that until 1945 it was a kind of high-quality exam of a fighter pilot.

    Quote: Alexey RA
    It's funny, but the book Operation Barbarossa: the Complete Organizational and Statistical Analysis and Military Simulation (Volume IIA) states that on the eve of Barbarossa, there were 8 Heeresaufklärung Staffel fully equipped with FW 189 on the eve of the German group in the East
    Finally!!!! Well, at least someone has information that the "frames" were scouts in the summer of 1941! It's just that, to be honest, most publications claim that it was not - which seemed to me a very strange fact.

    Quote: yehat
    At the beginning of the war on June 22, the Germans in aviation had all sorts of trash, like the he-51 and so on. Moreover, in the state of reconnaissance aircraft in the army there were NO frames at all.
    Probably this issue needs to be worked out, tk. as close scouts for the Germans in 41-42. on the Eastern Front, all kinds of rubbish really flew. But at least since the fall, 41 "frames" have appeared - and maybe partly and have been used since the beginning of "Barbarossa" - as already mentioned above.

    Quote: rubin6286
    namely, the FV-189 was for the Soviet infantry the most hated German aircraft ?. Why was it tenacious and very stable?
    The article as many as three points about this clearly explains - why. And about the technical aspect - in general, that is, there is a lot of publication on this topic, and I have already explained that I will consider only little-known episodes of combat use.
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 12: 36 New
      0
      about the survivability of the frame: it was more indirect than real.
      it was very difficult for the plane to leave on 1 engine. For clarity, try in the IL-2 on the frame, even with the gained altitude, simply turn off 1 engine and reach the airfield 15-20 km. The task is not trivial. The cabin was armored rather nominally than real. Unless the aircraft itself was all-metal and the design feature added strength to it.
      They didn’t shoot her down because of the high maneuverability combined with the presence of defensive weapons, the absence of an extensive and saturated network of air defense batteries in 41-42, due to poor coordination of fighter formations and spotters with the advanced, due to common problems with fighters. The survivability of the machine was also helped by the review and the large crew and handling - even if the pilot was injured, the plane could land. And another thing: the car was well planned and 1-2 km with the engines turned off could fly easily.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 28 March 2016 13: 00 New
      +1
      Quote: Warrior2015
      Finally!!!! Well, at least someone has information that the "frames" were scouts in the summer of 1941! It's just that, to be honest, most publications claim that it was not - which seemed to me a very strange fact.

      The strangest thing is that there is a table of losses (damaged and destroyed) of backlash machines on 22.06.41 (according to Bundesarhiv-Militaerarhiv. RL 2 III / 1177 Flugzeugunfalle und - verluste des fliegenden Verbanden seit 30.05.1941/02.08.1941/XNUMX bis XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX).
      And it has 4 FW-189s. belay
      http://airforce.ru/history/ww2/22june41/index.htm
    3. bocsman
      bocsman 28 March 2016 14: 33 New
      0
      Quote: bocsman

      All the pilots and the navigator were exclusively volunteers and not from the street but at least instructors from air clubs.
      Yah ? truth ? and do you believe that? at all Po-2 to seat instructors from air clubs - while untrained greenery even planted on IL2?!?

      Meant in women's units ! And do not distort! Yes, at the initial stage of the war, everything was and pilots poorly trained as well.
      And in the subject. For that matter. And what is the future pilot who entered the flight school not a volunteer!?
      1. yehat
        yehat 28 March 2016 15: 25 New
        +1
        Quote: bocsman
        For that matter. And what is the future pilot who entered the flight school not a volunteer!?

        to be a pilot was much more convenient than a simple infantryman.
        and in the rear it was often more difficult than at the front,
        so people went to flight schools and for career / selfish interests.
        In addition, if there is a war, you are a guy and you are 18 years old, anyway you find yourself in a war, and you could only influence how it will be
  18. yehat
    yehat 28 March 2016 12: 25 New
    +1
    about the fact that we did not have a similar scout and spotter ... were! After they put an end to the su-2, they were transferred to spotters + scouts and they coped with it very well.
    So bad that near Stalingrad and Kursk fighters actively hunted them.
    1. AK64
      AK64 28 March 2016 12: 30 New
      +2
      about the fact that we did not have a similar scout and spotter ... were! After they put an end to the su-2, they were transferred to spotters + scouts and they coped with it very well.


      Yes, they coped with it badly, badly. At least a review from the cockpit compare. That alone is enough.
      And the crew: in Su-2 only 1 person could be engaged in observation, and in FV-189 - 2 observers.

      It’s not only that: readers didn’t understand the message.
      It's not about the plane: the Germans FV was part of what was later called reconnaissance complex. For the Red Army Air Force, at that time it was simply unattainable construction (not a separate aircraft, namely the complex)
      1. yehat
        yehat 28 March 2016 12: 44 New
        0
        the su-2 had a perfectly glazed cabin, no worse than on the frame, an overview

        the problem was more likely in another - the frame could well observe the earth from afar using its equipment (from 5 km in height you could see a tank or a gun under you, at a distance of 20 km you could see the movement of a convoy of equipment or a train)

        and the Su-2 review was mainly due to the eyes of the pilots.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 28 March 2016 13: 11 New
          +1
          Quote: yehat
          the su-2 had a perfectly glazed cabin, no worse than on the frame, an overview

          Not the fact that no worse.

          Firstly, it is necessary not only to observe the target and breaks, but also to measure deviations.
          Secondly, the target must be observed almost constantly, and at the same time not to be on the trajectory of their own shells.

          The Su-2 could not hang over the target all the time while shooting and controlling the shooting. First of all, due to the lack of a normal view down
        2. AK64
          AK64 29 March 2016 15: 04 New
          0
          the su-2 had a perfectly glazed cabin, no worse than on the frame, an overview


          No worse than no worse - you know better: apparently sat in both?

          the problem was more likely in another - the frame could well observe the earth from afar using its equipment (from 5 km in height you could see a tank or a gun under you, at a distance of 20 km you could see the movement of a convoy of equipment or a train)


          The frame is part of what, in the 60s, was already called the "shock-expanding complex". Only a part. And the Germans made a samol as part of the complex. Therefore, the frame is not just well glazed, it is not just an overview from it --- for example, it also had an excellent walkie-talkie. For a raid with such tasks, a walkie-talkie is a must.
      2. Taoist
        Taoist 28 March 2016 13: 39 New
        +1
        Well, you bent it ... If we talk about RUK, then it is more likely that Su2 pulls with its eres, decent bomb load and weapons ... And Rama, forgive 4 bombs with a caliber of 50 kg ... And the almost complete impossibility of an attack ... When an attack aircraft tried to dazzle on the base of an owl "the plane did not fly."
        HAND means that he himself destroys the identified targets ... But Rama could only do this by directing artillery or dive-bombers.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 28 March 2016 15: 10 New
          0
          Quote: Taoist
          HAND means that he himself destroys the identified targets ...

          Not always. Complexes in which the tasks of reconnaissance of targets and subsequent striking at them are assigned to various means are also called RUK.

          As I remember the picture from the ZVO: AWACS with Jistars and RC-135 antennae circled on top, satellites above them, and information from the reconnaissance component goes to the ground / air control gear and then to artillery, MLRS, ATACMS and air force projectiles. smile
          1. Taoist
            Taoist 28 March 2016 16: 35 New
            0
            Well, in our "tactics" when we talked about the RUK, it was always not remote guidance that was meant, but identification and defeat with the help of on-board means and weapons. Unless it was implied that information in real time is also transmitted "for further use"
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 28 March 2016 17: 04 New
              0
              Quote: Taoist
              Well, in our "tactics" when we talked about the RUK, it was always not remote guidance that was meant, but identification and defeat with the help of on-board means and weapons.

              Wrong.
              HAND is a reduction into a single complex of intelligence and weapons of various subordination bypassing intermediate instances.

              For example, the Tipchak UAV is subordinated to the Army's NRViA. Art. the division is subordinated to the NA regiment. In the normal version, the coordinates of the target from the MFA headquarters of the army are lowered to the MFA headquarters of the division, from there to the regiment, and from there the NSh of the division.

              We put the UAV control machine next to the NSH division machine, and transfer the data directly. This will be the HAND.

              For example, 2S19 division, Zoo radar, SNAR-10 radar. One of the options for HANDS. "Leapard" detects the convoy, transmits information to the NSh of the division. Zoo service, shoot to kill, SNAR-10 control of movement stops.
        2. AK64
          AK64 30 March 2016 02: 17 New
          0
          Well, you bent it ...


          This is not me "bent".
          What you are talking about was called "free hunting", and has been officially applied since mid-1942. And not officially, without orders, apparently from the first day of the war.
          In today's terms, what you're talking about is the AC-130.

          Naturally, neither "free hunt" nor the AC-130 are in any way sideways to reconnaissance and strike complexes.
  19. tchoni
    tchoni 28 March 2016 12: 43 New
    +3
    I’ll be smart again :-)
    1) The author tries to paint the "frame" as a super night hunter. The killer of Russian female pilots (although the proportion of female air regiments among night bombers is negligible. Only 2 out of 60). At the same time, the author does not bother to think about how realistic this is at all: a) a light-engine aircraft flying at a low altitude and having in its composition very few iron parts with acoustic, radar and other ground detection means. (and on the part of the u-2 they also installed silencers, and the pilots, when approaching the enemy positions, tried not to make much noise)
    b) how to use the not-so-perfect radar to detect the same light-engine and not too burdened with iron aircraft?
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 13: 12 New
      +1
      I repeat: the radar was not much better than what the traffic police now have.
      The Germans reached this level in 42 years. And from a distance of a couple of kilometers you can confidently detect-2. By the way, the iron there is not only the engine: a machine gun, part of the cockpit, part of the chassis, body parts, bombs in the end - I think there was definitely a kilogram of 200 iron on it.
      besides, it is not at all necessary to pinpoint the exact coordinates with a tracking radar - it is enough to get a bearing on the vague outlines of a group of aircraft. I doubt that the 2-squadron can be confused with a flock of geese.

      ps you are probably led astray by modern requirements when you need to detect a target from a distance of 30-60 km. At such a distance, finding 2 is much harder
      1. tchoni
        tchoni 28 March 2016 16: 53 New
        +1
        Much more advanced than the German radar MiG17 "emerald" saw at night a Tu4-type bomber (EPR from 10 to 15 square meters) at a distance of about 11-12 km. EPR U2, as it seems to me, at most angles, I think is no more than the EPR of a cruise missile (i.e. about 1 square meter, or even less). According to the basic radar equation, the detection range is directly proportional to the RCS. Consequently, u-2 was detected "as an emerald at ranges of less than a kilometer. An indirect confirmation of this is the effectiveness of U2 during the Korean War.
        Earlier radar "Gaines 2" ensured the location of the BOMBER at a distance of only 3-4 km. And you gosorite y-2 for 2 km ... Yes, for an hour, against the background of the underlying surface ..
        1. yehat
          yehat 28 March 2016 19: 02 New
          0
          You want to say that the Germans could not create a compact high-frequency transmitter with a directional antenna, the waves of which will be reflected from the piece of iron, the size of a Lada engine at a distance of 2 kilometers under ideal conditions (air, no obstacles) and at the same time be powerful enough to receive it? Sorry, but even Popov’s radio experiments in the Russian Navy half a century earlier, even before the radio patent, already allowed this to be done.
          1. AK64
            AK64 30 March 2016 02: 23 New
            0
            you want to say that the Germans could not create a compact high-frequency transmitter with a directional antenna,


            Could not --- and this is a fact.
            The Germans believed that it was impossible to make a magnetron.


            Sorry, but even Popov’s radio experiments in the Russian Navy half a century earlier, even before the radio patent, already allowed this to be done.


            "Something was reflected from something and started somewhere" has little to do with radar (radar). Because the locator is precisely the angle of the target and the distance, and not just "somewhere, something from something."
      2. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 28 March 2016 19: 18 New
        +3
        Quote: yehat
        I repeat: the radar was not much better than what the traffic police now have.

        Quote: yehat
        You want to say that the Germans could not create a compact high-frequency transmitter with a directional antenna, the waves of which will be reflected from a piece of iron, the size of a Lada engine at a distance of 2 kilometers under ideal conditions (air, no obstacles) and yet powerful enough to receive?

        I also watched the movie "The Hyperboloid of Engineer Garin" ..... laughing
        And Tesla conducted some mysterious experiments ....
        And the Tatar-Mongol yoke was not .... laughing
        Give the dimensions and performance characteristics of those radars that "poked" in a number of 2 (two!) Pieces into the "frame" cockpit ....
        And there were no air-to-air missiles under the pilot's seat?
        1. Warrior2015
          28 March 2016 22: 06 New
          +2
          Quote: stalkerwalker
          And there were no air-to-air missiles under the pilot's seat?

          And for you, is this discovery that rockets and even bombs against planes were used in the Luftwaffe? laughing
    2. Trigger-Happy
      Trigger-Happy 28 March 2016 13: 42 New
      +1
      I think there was no difficulty detecting a 200-liter barrel even with the old primitive radar. If now a ball of 5 cm in diameter is detected, it is only a matter of distance.
      1. stalkerwalker
        stalkerwalker 28 March 2016 20: 29 New
        +2
        Quote: Trigger-Happy
        I think there was no difficulty detecting a 200-liter barrel even with the old primitive radar. If now a ball of 5 cm in diameter is detected, it is only a matter of distance.

        At the Station of Young Technicians, as a child, I remember that the detector receivers were collected .... And, imagine, they received something ....
  20. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 28 March 2016 13: 11 New
    +4
    I’m in shock-war, these guys are not a computer game. How can I give examples of flights on a computer simulator ???
    As for the article, the frame was a dangerous enemy for the pilots, read the memoirs. Everything, regardless of the number of aircraft shot down, indicates the difficulty of fighting the frame. Yes, they shot down, but they themselves suffered losses. For Soviet pilots FW.189 "frame" in 1943 The city remained a difficult but honorable trophy. Many fighters will agree with the opinion of General B.N. Eremin: “In order to overwhelm this aircraft for sure, it was necessary to fire on the cockpit. But with the amazing maneuverability of the“ frame ”, it was not easy to do this. Glazov managed to open fire, but, obviously, it was necessary to literally cut the beam so that the "frame" would fall ... "N.E. Glazov, mentioned in this episode, was one of many who later died in battle with FW.189. On the combat account of the excellent pilot, Hero of the Soviet Union, there were 475 sorties, 13 personally and 5 in the group of downed enemy aircraft, when on June 30, 1943 he collided with a German spotter. A similar collision for V.D. Lavrinenkov ended on 24 August 1943 with a parachute jump over the territory occupied by the enemy ...
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 13: 26 New
      0
      Quote: Dimon19661
      I’m in shock-war, these guys are not a computer game. How can I give examples of flights on a computer simulator ???

      Of course, it’s full of conventions, but the controllability of the aircraft and the general potential of the performance characteristics can be understood
      for example, it is very difficult for the frame to "pull" on 1 engine, because the trimmer fails to compensate for the "pull" of the car to the side
    2. Alf
      Alf 28 March 2016 19: 44 New
      +2
      Quote: Dimon19661
      I’m in shock-war, these guys are not a computer game. How can I give examples of flights on a computer simulator ???

      These "pilots" on the IL-2 and the "tankers" of the WOT have already gotten fed up.
      1. yehat
        yehat 28 March 2016 19: 56 New
        +1
        Well, before comparing the frame with the tank laughing
        1. Alf
          Alf 28 March 2016 21: 23 New
          +2
          Quote: yehat
          Well, before comparing the frame with the tank

          Not yet evening... laughing
  21. qwert
    qwert 28 March 2016 13: 22 New
    +3
    A big request to the author. Indicate the source.
    For example, the only thing I learned new from the article is that in the comments they later declared Goebels propaganda. I would like to dive into the source to understand how it was or not.
    And so the question remained.
    So do not hesitate to write the source.
    1. bocsman
      bocsman 28 March 2016 14: 50 New
      0
      that in the comments later declared Goebels propaganda

      The propaganda of Goebbels is the "nobility" of German pilots, the combat accounts of the "ases" of 100, 200, 300 aircraft, the fearlessness of the "knights of the sky"! And it is difficult to lie about the performance characteristics, although it is possible but easily verified. Something the sky did not empty after the departure of Melders and his aces. On the contrary, each aspired to fight with the vaunted specialists, so much so that they were already removed to the west in the forty-third. Because the losses were catastrophic. And from the message that in the air Pokryshkin the Fritzes started diarrhea!
  22. iouris
    iouris 28 March 2016 13: 40 New
    +2
    In my opinion, the bottom line is that the Germans had what they later called reconnaissance and strike systems (without precision weapons), but we didn’t. Only now with the advent of UAVs does the problem receive an adequate resolution.
    Despite the "shortcomings" of the "Rama" after the war, it seems that the Sukhoi Design Bureau was working on the creation of such an aircraft, and even flight tests were carried out. However, close cooperation between the Air Force and the Ground Forces had not been established before the start of the war in Afghanistan.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 March 2016 13: 49 New
      +2
      Quote: iouris
      However, close cooperation between the Air Force and the Ground Forces was not established before the war in Afghanistan.

      ?
      But what about the Su-12 and the spotter helicopters art. fire? There is even an article in the Shooting Rules "shooting with a helicopter"
    2. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 13: 59 New
      +1
      Quote: iouris
      However, close cooperation between the Air Force and the Ground Forces was not established before the war in Afghanistan.

      this is not true
      in the USSR, a whole range of front-line intelligence officers were released before the events in Afghanistan and much attention was paid to interaction. There is only one "but" - part of the reconnaissance was on helicopters and specials. reconnaissance vehicles on the ground. The scouts were highly specialized. In the 70s, the USSR army was a well-oiled machine, including in intelligence. Moreover, the advisers had vast experience - wars in Vietnam, Korea, Arabs with Israel, Cuba, Africa
  23. Trigger-Happy
    Trigger-Happy 28 March 2016 13: 59 New
    -7
    I am very jarred by the fact that our men sent women to death in these buckets !!!! Their effectiveness tended to 0, by and large, against the background of the general picture of hostilities. With the same success, you can try to stop the train from the PM. But no, as always it is Russian - "must". One had to have extraordinary courage to carry out missions on these aircraft. In general, Russian women once again covered up the punctures and sloppiness of men, losing their young lives instead of giving new ones .......... sad ...
    1. Dimon19661
      Dimon19661 28 March 2016 14: 16 New
      +4
      But you are not confused by the fact that it was the Patriotic War ?, and the women, by the way, were volunteers.
      The results of the combat activity of the U-2 were impressive. For example, the navigator of the link of the 97th guards night bomber aviation regiment, guard lieutenant, Hero of the Soviet Union Vasily Dmitrievich Kiz made 640 sorties, blew up 27 warehouses with fuel and ammunition, destroyed 7 bunkers, the observation post, 168 buildings and structures, destroyed 24 cars and 4 aircraft on the ground. At the same time, individual pilots accounted for more than 800 sorties, and some (Hero of the Soviet Union Irina Fedorovna Sebrova) - more than a thousand.

      On especially busy nights, ground crews provided up to 12 sorties of each U-2. The number of flights depended on the length of the dark time of day.

      According to the recollections of Soviet pilots flying the U-2, after the factory completion of the aircraft in 1942, the bomb load was significantly increased - up to 250 kg (in some cases - up to 500 kg), sorties were sometimes made up to fourteen times per night. “Kaffeemühle” (coffee grinder), “Нaltsnähmaschine” (sewing machine) - this is what the Wehrmacht soldiers called the U-2, which delivered a lot of trouble for the enemy in the front line.

      U-2 could operate in the most adverse weather conditions. So, in February 1944, in extremely difficult weather conditions, the U-2 hit anti-tank bombs on a column of enemy armored vehicles in the area of ​​the city of Korsun-Shevchenkovsky. As a result of this airstrike, the last attempt by the Germans to break out of the encirclement was thwarted.

      But the main ones for use, of course, were the functions of a reconnaissance and communication aircraft. There was also a sanitary option. Due to the ability to take off from any platform, it was widely used when working with partisans. It was actively used to evacuate the population. In February 1943, during the Osveisk tragedy, up to several dozens of passengers per flight (mainly children) were transported to U-2.

      In addition, the U-2 aircraft were also used to parachute small sabotage and reconnaissance groups and individuals.
      1. yehat
        yehat 28 March 2016 15: 07 New
        +1
        I don’t understand how you can detonate a pillbox with Po-2?
        it just didn't have such bombs
        1. Taoist
          Taoist 28 March 2016 16: 37 New
          +1
          Ampoules with KS - a thing rather rotten for pilots, but it was especially fun for those who were pouring 200-300 kg of fire mixtures based on white phosphorus onto their heads ... you won’t burn up, you’ll get poisoned ...
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 28 March 2016 15: 26 New
        +3
        Quote: Dimon19661
        So, in February 1944, in extremely difficult weather conditions, the U-2 hit anti-tank bombs on a column of enemy armored vehicles in the area of ​​the city of Korsun-Shevchenkovsky. As a result of this airstrike, the last attempt by the Germans to break out of the encirclement was thwarted.

        According to the official version of this event, the use of U-2 in those conditions was the only possible solution: weather conditions were such that with difficulty, IL-2s from 291 shads that just took off could not reach the target. And then Novikov ordered to load U-2 PTABs from 208 nlbad. In the first wave of Germans, 91 cars attacked, 63 cars delivered a second blow. The result - the German counterattack was thwarted.
      3. Trigger-Happy
        Trigger-Happy 28 March 2016 17: 07 New
        0
        What could be easier than quoting Wikipedia, right? .....
    2. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 14: 27 New
      +4
      firstly, not men sent, but all were equal
      secondly, not all ladies were highly qualified pilots and could pilot the latest fighters. I recall that the i-16, aerocobra, lagg-3 were pretty moody.
      the stability of women in overloads and stresses of air combat was even lower evaluated.
      Therefore, it was logical that some of the women served in the crew of Po-2
      At the same time, there was no discrimination - women served everywhere, were both tankmen and long-range aviation pilots, etc. True, in the Navy, sailors grumbled due to superstition.
      Lastly, Night 2 sorties were considered relatively safe. Compare with statistics
      sorties on il-2.
      Those women were no match for modern blondes plying between a cozy office and shops in their car.
    3. Taoist
      Taoist 28 March 2016 14: 48 New
      +2
      Here is another victim of the "rhesunoids" ... wassat
      Brain infection however ...
      Maybe you will regret Hannah Reich, she also flew on a "bucket" called Stork ...?
      1. Trigger-Happy
        Trigger-Happy 28 March 2016 16: 07 New
        -6
        the infection in your ass ... is sitting !!!! You need the last two letters of the nickname on. ..UN ... replace !!!!
        1. Taoist
          Taoist 28 March 2016 18: 05 New
          +3
          But you should not be rude. At least ... This is harmful to health (including mental) and does not demonstrate anything but your stupidity. Unlike some, I do not hide my name and face.
    4. bocsman
      bocsman 28 March 2016 14: 57 New
      0
      Quote: Trigger-Happy
      I am very jarred by the fact that our men sent women to death in these buckets !!!! Their effectiveness tended to 0, by and large, against the background of the general picture of hostilities. With the same success, you can try to stop the train from the PM. But no, as always it is Russian - "must". One had to have extraordinary courage to carry out missions on these aircraft. In general, Russian women once again covered up the punctures and sloppiness of men, losing their young lives instead of giving new ones .......... sad ...

      Read literature! They did not send, but they themselves were eager to fight, to beat the Nazis! Who does not understand that this "trend" was such then. Not in "louboutins" with pumped lips to catch oligarchs and to defend the Motherland!
      1. Trigger-Happy
        Trigger-Happy 28 March 2016 16: 02 New
        0
        It’s understandable that they were torn, the party said it was necessary, and the Komsomol replied - IS !!! The girls' commanders had enough conscience to let such tasks, in my opinion, is stupid and not effective.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 28 March 2016 17: 53 New
          +1
          Quote: Trigger-Happy
          It’s understandable that they were torn, the party said it was necessary, and the Komsomol replied - IS !!! The girls' commanders had enough conscience to let such tasks, in my opinion, is stupid and not effective.

          Ja, ja ... Kinder, Küche, Kirche! smile

          Women's aviation regiments are the flip side of gender equality in the USSR. Women really were eager for the front. And the Soviet leadership was forced to take the path: can not prevent - lead.
          All the same, women penetrated into combat units by hook or by crook. Most of them were in medicine and air defense (including my blockade grandmother, who served in Leningrad in the calculation of the radar). But besides the anti-aircraft gunners there were female snipers, female intelligence officers, female tankers and even female sailors.
    5. Alf
      Alf 28 March 2016 20: 02 New
      +1
      Quote: Trigger-Happy
      I am very jarred by the fact that our men sent women simply to death in these buckets !!!!

      But the fact that instead of an 8-hour working day people didn’t work for 12 hours, and often stayed for a day, slept near the machine for a couple of hours? Or. In your opinion, are men guilty of having gone to the front? Or do you just care that they were RUSSIAN people?
      So I dare to recall that in Germany and in the USA and in Britain, female labor during the war was also widespread. And did Hitler put the 15-16-year-old boys under arms in order to detain Russian tanks and extend their life?
      And about the women in the Luftwaffe. There is very little information, but there is.
      But I would also recommend for general development to take an interest in Countess Melitta Schenck von Stauffenberg (sister of the famous killing agent for the Fuhrer Klaus von Stauffenberg).
      As well as female pilots of the Reich, Liesel Bach, Ellie Beinhorn and Beata Ouse.
      And also Rosa Maria Mayer, who fought with JG 77 in the south of Russia.
      a character that our pilots nicknamed "White Rose". She flew in the southern theater, in the area of ​​operations of JG 52 and one of the regiments of JG 77. She is mentioned by the attack pilot Ivan Arsentiev. She was a full-fledged fighter, cut off his friend and not only him. Arsentiev drew attention to her, because she flew without a helmet - she had headphones, a throat phone around her neck and a shock of blond hair tied in a ponytail. A white rose was painted on board under the cockpit - hence the nickname. She was also mentioned in several other memoir books. This is a really interesting lady. She was most likely in the JG 77 group.
      all greetings! my grandfather is a veteran, when he was alive, told such a story. somewhere at the beginning of the war he saw how a German plane was shot down. the pilot turned out to be a young girl with white hair.

      Think of the American pilots who drove the Cobras through Alaska. Remember the British who drove Spitfire from factories to military units.
      1. Alf
        Alf 28 March 2016 20: 07 New
        +1
        Ellie was born on May 30, 1907 in Hanover. Her desire to become a pilot arose after attending a lecture in 1928 by Hermann Kohl on flying across the Atlantic Ocean. Contrary to the wishes of her parents, she moves to Spandau at the age of 21 and spends her small savings on flight training. Training takes place at the airport of Berlin-Staaken.
        Unfortunately, none of the sources on the Internet provide intelligible information about what Ellie was doing during the Second World War. But based on the fact that Ellie, after her first marriage, had the surname Rosemeyer-Beinhorn, and based on the fact that there were not so many experienced pilots in Germany, it can be assumed that Ellie is the very Rose Maria Mayer, who fought with JG 77 in southern Russia. Our pilots nicknamed her "White Rose". She flew in the southern theater, in the area of ​​operations of JG 52 and one of the groups of JG 77. She is mentioned by the attack aircraft pilot Ivan Arsentiev. She was a full-fledged fighter, cut off his friend and not only him. Arsentiev drew attention to her, because she flew without a helmet - she had headphones, a throat phone around her neck and a shock of blond hair tied in a ponytail. A white rose was painted on board under the cockpit - hence the nickname. She is also mentioned in several other memoir books. Most likely, she was a member of one of the JG 77 groups. Arsentiev met with her more than once or twice, but he was lucky.
  24. digger
    digger 28 March 2016 14: 15 New
    +3
    Registered specifically to leave a review. To obtain the title of Hero of the USSR, a fighter had to shoot down 10 enemy planes at the beginning of the war, by the year 43 this figure was raised to 15. An attack aircraft on an IL-2 should make 100 sorties for attack. And in order to get a GSS for PO-2, it was necessary to make 500 sorties for night bombing. Many pilots at PO-2 had over 700 sorties. Conclusion - the probability of dying from a night fighter among pilots on PO-2 was significantly lower than on pilots on IL-2. The probability of meeting a night fighter was extremely low. Why 700 or more sorties for some pilots? Because during the night they made up to 7 sorties. At a low speed of PO-2, this suggests that the airfields were not far from the front line and the time spent on the enemy’s territory was limited to 5–10–15 minutes. times less than attack aircraft. The FV-5 was not a super night fighter.
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 15: 12 New
      0
      7 flights were in time, because the complexity of take-off and landing, preparation of the machine was very small. The same Pe-2 very rarely made more than 1 departure per day.
      at the same time, the Germans managed to send a piece to the combat mission 6-7 times a day. A typical example is when Rudel was shot down over the Kursk arc, and after 2 hours he was already in the air in another car.
    2. bocsman
      bocsman 28 March 2016 15: 18 New
      0
      41-42 years 20 b.v. 42-43 y. 30 b.v. , 43-80 b.v. 44-45 years 100 successful sorties. Mastery grew; the GCC award bar grew.
      The same thing happened with the PO-2 pilots.
      And another interesting point. The Germans captured near Stalingrad were asked what they were most afraid of? Answer Po-2! I will not quote verbatim but the essence is that it will get dark all the time and there is nowhere to hide;
      1. yehat
        yehat 28 March 2016 15: 30 New
        0
        we are talking about the fact that, at night, they actively bombarded night parking, focusing on light and did it almost soundlessly. The Germans were afraid of this vague expectation.
        I lit a fire, and the bomb falls on top of you.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 28 March 2016 18: 03 New
          +1
          Quote: yehat
          The Germans were afraid of this vague expectation.
          I lit a fire, and a bomb falls on top of you

          Bedcheck Charlie. smile
          However, this is already from another war.
          He is not seen by the radar. The Sabers are useless against him - they fly only during the day. We tried F-82 Twin Mustangs armed with T-6s, even flew the B-26 Invader - all to no avail. Only the Marines in the night Corsairs managed to shoot them down - but not everywhere and not always. They arrive regularly. And even if their bombs do not hit anywhere, we still have to run for cover instead of sleeping.
          (c) a summary of the memoirs of pilots and technicians from the Suwon base, where on the night of June 16-17, 1951, Po-2 burned the Saber.
  25. dvvv
    dvvv 28 March 2016 15: 02 New
    0
    Quote: digger
    FV-189 was not super night

    --I agree! I have never heard or read that there were night interceptors designed to intercept the Po-2.
    Firstly, they were very weak and low-risk aircraft that were used from poverty and poverty and could not deliver the Germans a big threat.
    Secondly, how could those miserable radars detect Po-2 if it is almost all plywood! Where did such radars come from, and for the sake of what trouble should the Germans make all this?
    They would use radars against Amer and Anglitsky air armadas that also swept away cities at night.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. bocsman
      bocsman 28 March 2016 15: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: dvvv
      Firstly, they were very weak and low-risk aircraft that were used from poverty and poverty and could not deliver the Germans a big threat.


      So in the beginning, the Soviet command thought and the Germans laughed "Rus-plywood"! But the weapon proved to be so effective that the number of regiments was brought to sixty! And the Germans themselves tried to create something similar. So much for poverty and despair! And at the expense of the "big threat" read above. And in addition to being directly involved in combat missions, the regiments performed the functions of postmen, messengers, air ambulances, and delivering bosses to different units, in general, a jack of all trades!

      They would use radars against Amer and Anglitsky air armadas that also swept away cities at night.

      Here, here with civilians (Dresden, etc.) in the future Soviet occupation zone.
  26. Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 28 March 2016 15: 22 New
    0
    A very good article.
    The author really underestimates Rama somewhat. He had excellent visibility and getting close to him was not easy.
    And Ramu and Storch even planned to produce in the USSR. Indeed, for a scout, speed is not the main thing.
    It’s not always possible to rush over the battlefield to consider goals.
    1. Alf
      Alf 28 March 2016 20: 14 New
      +1
      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      And Ramu and Storch even planned to produce in the USSR.

      Soviet experts came to the conclusion that the same characteristics of the aircraft as the Fi 156 in the USSR did not appear. JV Stalin instructed to urgently release such a plane. To complete the assignment, A. S. Yakovlev, being the deputy commissar of the aviation industry for experimental aircraft construction at that time, recommended the lead engineer of his design bureau O.K. Antonov. Antonov brilliantly coped with the task, and already in September the Soviet version of the Fi 156 was built, but due to the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, the aircraft never went into serial production, and the test samples were destroyed. [2] In addition to the multi-purpose machine, which received the designation communications aircraft, they also created a sanitary one. The first was supposed to be used for communications, transportation of people, small cargoes, reconnaissance and adjustment of artillery fire, the second - for transporting two wounded on a stretcher and one sitting. [3]

      In mid-1947, the chief artillery marshal N.N. Voronov asked to create a reconnaissance spotter for artillery units. All the main designers refused to develop such an aircraft, only P.O. Dry. The experience and results of military operations of the German “frame” FV-189, as well as similar allied vehicles, were carefully analyzed. The aircraft, designated Su-12 or RK (reconnaissance spotter), was designed and built in an incredibly short time - in just 150 days. If necessary, it could be used for aerial photography day and night, as well as as a bomber. Factory flight Su-12 tests were launched in December 1947. They were conducted by test pilots N.D. Fixon, M.L. Gallay, S.N. Anokhin. Initially, the aircraft power plant consisted of two ASh-82M engines. During the tests, these engines were replaced with serial ASH-82FN with weather vane screws. In 1948, the aircraft was transferred to state tests, which were carried out at an artillery range. The aircraft showed good flight data: the maximum speed is 531 km / h, the flight range was 1140 km, and its duration was 4 hours 18 minutes. The conclusion of the tests said: “The aircraft can be successfully used to perform the tasks of adjusting artillery fire and reconnaissance in the interests of artillery and command troops. Recommend the Su-12 aircraft for adoption by the Air Force with the elimination of all the shortcomings and defects ... "The main" defect "of the aircraft was the lack of knowledge of cannon weapons, it was not possible to eliminate it. The aircraft was not launched into the series - the era of jet aviation was beginning, and an aircraft of this purpose was no longer needed.
  27. Lex.
    Lex. 28 March 2016 15: 27 New
    +2
    There were Soviet analogues of the same Mr. 37 Grakhovsky, it is strange that he was not launched into the series
    1. AK64
      AK64 29 March 2016 15: 11 New
      0
      There were Soviet analogues of the same Mr. 37 Grakhovsky, it is strange that he was not launched into the series


      Nothing strange: the frame itself is not important, it becomes important only as part of a reconnaissance strike complex. In the Red Army, it was problematic to create such a thing organizationally.
      (The interaction of aviation and mechanized groups was somehow managed to be organized somehow only by the 44th.)
  28. qwert
    qwert 28 March 2016 16: 02 New
    0
    I’ll say this. Do not argue with Alexey RA. hi He just doesn’t say anything. Always with evidence, with numbers, links. And no compromises bully Therefore, it is better to listen and maybe look at the topic from the other side.

    At the beginning, Fw-189 spotted the Po-2 group with a radar (sometimes even 2 radars operating in different bands were placed on the “frame”), then visually and then attacked, and often this happened almost silently, on planning.
    That's because the author did not indicate where it came from. Honestly, it's hard to believe. German locator FuG 202 "Liechtenstein" aircraft with an operating frequency of 490 MHz was able to detect English BOMBERS at a range of 4 km (!). The question is what kind of EPR did Po-2 have? Could those locators detect it? Unlikely
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 March 2016 16: 47 New
      0
      Quote: qwert
      The question is what kind of EPR did Po-2 have? Could those locators detect it? Unlikely

      The plywood "Mosquito" also did not have a very large EPR, nevertheless they were shot down.

      Two radars were designed to operate at different ranges. Liechtenstein seemed to have had a minimum wage of 200 meters.

      In addition, there was a night IR sight, which, against the background of the earth, could well detect the Po-2 engine
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 28 March 2016 18: 23 New
        0
        Quote: Spade
        Two radars were designed to operate at different ranges. Liechtenstein seemed to have had a minimum wage of 200 meters.

        They write that the decimeter "Liechtenstein" FuG 212C-1 was put on the bedside lamps based on the "frame".
        Plus, they had ... specific armament: due to the fact that the entire nose was occupied by antennas, instead of an upper mobile defensive installation, they had to put a fixed MG.151 / 20 ("Schrage Musik" installation). It is still a pleasure to conduct aimed fire from such an installation ... especially at night and at a target flying at low altitude.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 28 March 2016 18: 58 New
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          instead of the upper mobile defensive installation, we had to install a stationary MG.151 / 20 (installation "Schrage Musik"). It is still a pleasure to conduct aimed fire from such an installation ... especially at night and at a target flying at low altitude.

          Still, it would be a pleasure ... There, after all, under the goal it is necessary to fly.

          It only seems to me that night fighters on the Eastern Front were by no means exclusively intended for the fight against Po-2. It’s just that they were an extremely difficult target for the 110th, the main German night fighter. At night, near the ground, at a speed close to the stall speed ...

          Quote: Alexey RA
          They write that the decimeter "Liechtenstein" FuG 212C-1 was put on the bedside lamps based on the "frame".

          They write that on the Me-110 he "ate" about 50 km / h
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 28 March 2016 18: 06 New
      0
      Quote: qwert
      Do not argue with Alexey RA. hi He just doesn't say anything. Always with evidence, with numbers, links. And no compromises

      Need to argue. We are all human beings, we are all mistaken - including myself.
      Vaughn, recently in a discussion on Japanese MCTs at Midway, confused the fate of the MCT "Mikuma" and "Mogami". fool
  29. The comment was deleted.
  30. vvkroxa
    vvkroxa 28 March 2016 16: 54 New
    +2
    I am not strong in this topic, I need to read literature, but somehow I hardly believe in the effectiveness of German radars. As far as I remember from what I read earlier, the Germans generally splashed the appearance of radars from the same British. And when the British installed masts with radars on the coast for early warning of German air raids, the Germans for a long time could not understand what kind of crap. At the same time, an early warning worked and the Germans had decent losses. Only after a considerable time were these events connected together. And so that in 42 there were effective radars on airplanes from scratch? Very doubtful. I do not believe.
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 March 2016 19: 23 New
      +1
      tired of repeating already! the notch of an English bomber at a distance of 4 km and 2 at a distance of 2 km is a completely comparable technical problem, whereby a bomber must be accurately detected in order to visit and catch, and by 2 it was approximately enough - because the distance is very short and in-2, having a 2-3 times lower speed, ANYWHERE could not escape.
      That is why I am sure that the radar helped the Germans.
      let's count a little: take EPR-2 equal to 1 parrot. We will estimate the bomber at 10.
      Let's say the radar sees a bomber with 4 km. If you calculate which EPR radar will detect from 2 km,
      let's calculate: sufficient resolution with 4 km is 10 parrots / (4 * 4 * 4) =10/64
      calculation for PO-2: 1/2 * 2 * 2 =1/8. There are very close radar sensitivities.
      Of course, the calculation looks artificial, however, it shows how much easier it is to catch the radar at half the distance.

      As for the link above about the Americans in Korea, their sabers flew at an altitude of 5-7 km.
      2 fly at an altitude of 200-500m. This distance is already 2.5 times higher, and the relief, combined with the difference in height, often made it difficult to detect. Therefore, the Americans experienced great difficulties. Again, how skillfully did they use the radar? How exaggerated?
      1. Kostya Andreev
        Kostya Andreev 28 March 2016 21: 53 New
        +1
        who to believe? on VO there is an article dedicated to "Mosquitoes" of the Royal Air Force. it describes that "German radars poorly "saw" the plane, detecting the "Mosquito" only at a short distance, since the bomber had metal only engines and some controls. "
        And how could they see a small airplane glued from wood and sewn from rags?
        I remember reading somewhere that even the direction finders did not help, because there is little heat from the engine
        1. yehat
          yehat 28 March 2016 22: 35 New
          -3
          it all depends on the range of direction finding and the value of the range.
          the mosquito’s bearing was useful when it was tracked for several kilometers and then in a good position, otherwise it was commonplace not to intercept because of its speed
          2 is another matter. Noticed even point blank, he could not leave.
          therefore, for the first "they saw badly", but for the other they saw and that was enough.
          I suspect that if the mosquito had shone 5 times more actively than in -2, it would still be said about "poorly visible".
  31. Warrior2015
    28 March 2016 20: 00 New
    +2
    I am very glad that my article, as they say, hooked on a living thing - and finally the question of precisely coordinating tactical interaction was raised!

    Quote: yehat
    about the survivability of the frame: it was more indirect than real. it was very difficult for the plane to leave on 1 engine.

    I agree in part! The main thing here is the amazing strength of the hull - as, by the way, traditionally with all the aircraft of the Kurt Tank Design Bureau (HE BY THE BOTTOM WAS A TEST FLYER OF HIS CARS!). Thanks to its unique design, the "Rama" could often return to the base WITHOUT A WING. This could not be done by any aircraft of the German Air Force more.

    Quote: Taoist
    When an attack aircraft tried to dazzle at the base of an owl, "the plane did not fly."
    Well, why - they used the options for a light attack aircraft, but in general so-so. Just how much the same universal turned out to be an airplane ?!

    Quote: tchoni
    ) The author tries to paint the "frame" as a super night hunter.
    Absolutely not! Others were good night hunters there! I just showed the rare aspects of its combat use and examined a number of myths.

    Quote: yehat
    Lastly, Night 2 sorties were considered relatively safe.

    I completely agree. And above I painted why.

    Quote: digger
    Conclusion - the probability of dying from a night fighter among pilots on PO-2 was significantly lower than on pilots on IL-2

    Yes exactly. The chances of dying on the Po-2 in the NIGHT sortie were much less than the crew of the Il-2, albeit sitting in an armored capsule, but when flying on the attack day.

    Quote: dvvv
    I have never heard or read that there were night interceptors designed to intercept the Po-2.
    Firstly, they were very weak and low-risk aircraft that were used from poverty and poverty and could not deliver the Germans a big threat.
    THEREFORE, SO I DECIDED TO WRITE AN ARTICLE! This is completely new material for most Russian readers. And by the way, from their poverty and poverty, the Germans on the Eastern Front began to reduce all rubbish into a squadron of night hunters against Po-2

    Quote: Cap.Morgan
    The author really underestimates Rama somewhat. He had excellent visibility and getting close to him was not easy.
    First of all, it was apparently apparently underestimated by the Germans themselves, and also by Soviet technical specialists who purchased weapons in Germany in the 39-40s, and then during the war, Soviet pilots greatly overestimated.

    Quote: Spade
    Only it seems to me that night fighters on the Eastern Front were by no means intended solely for the fight against Po-2. It’s just that they were an extremely difficult target for the 110th, the main German night fighter.
    For Me110 and other normal "night lights" there was enough work in the West. Any trash such as Hs-2, Hs-126, He-123, etc. flew against the Po-51 with their harassing bombing raids. Just against this background, the Fw-189 stood out completely in terms of its armament, maneuverability, and equipment.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 March 2016 21: 20 New
      0
      Quote: Warrior2015
      For Me110 and other normal "night lights" there was enough work in the West. Any trash such as Hs-2, Hs-126, He-123, etc. flew against the Po-51 with their harassing bombing raids.


      http://wunderwafe.ru/HistoryBook/LuftAces/Night/15.htm
      1. Warrior2015
        28 March 2016 22: 11 New
        +2
        Thanks, very correct link! But we are talking about special squadrons aimed at fighting Po-2 at night, and not at universal squadrons of night fighters capable of shooting down everything from DB-3 to Po-2. And trying to hunt for Po-2 at He-111 is damn simply insanity ...
  32. Olezhek
    Olezhek 28 March 2016 21: 29 New
    0
    since they had really outstanding cars in abundance (for example, the same Messerschmidt Me-262


    Do you really consider Me 262 an outstanding fighter?
    And what, I'm sorry, he turned out?
    1. Warrior2015
      28 March 2016 22: 02 New
      +1
      Well, at least by the fact that it was launched into the series and was actively used in the ranks in various fields, which the Allies, for example, did not have. Let's not discuss Me-189 in the topic about Fw-262, ok?
      1. Olezhek
        Olezhek 29 March 2016 14: 03 New
        0
        Let's in the topic about Fw-189 not to discuss Me-262, ok


        OK - but you know - a good literate article, and as opposed to the middle peasant scout start Great Patriotic War shows "magnificent" (possibly) fighter and bomber the end Great Patriotic
        It is somehow illogical, do not you think?

        With a rhythm, you beat down the whole quarter, monsieur ... S.
  33. Olezhek
    Olezhek 28 March 2016 21: 44 New
    0
    Nahauf klarungs gruppe

    Nah-Aufklarungs-Gruppe is somehow so sure. yes or Nahaufklärungsgruppe
  34. Warrior2015
    28 March 2016 22: 38 New
    +1
    Quote: Sevastopolets15
    Moreover, German radars poorly "saw" the aircraft, detecting the "Mosquito" only at a short distance, since the bomber had metal only engines and some controls. It turns out that the "owl" had an excellent radar, detecting Po-2, made in the same way as the "mosquito", mostly made of wood?
    So it’s sorted out already that the output to the X-NUMX passage sector is according to the instructions of the ground; then pointing to the group on the radar and directly hunting and attack - visually.

    By the way, "Mosquito" radar operators on German night fighters saw quite well, but comparatively worse with mastodons of the "Liberators" type. Moreover, the Mosquito had two motors, and even a bunch of navigation equipment in the cockpit.

    Quote: Olezhek
    Nahaufklärungsgruppe
    I tried to lighten these long German technical terms for the article as much as possible to make it more clear. And so the correct spelling is exactly the same.

    Quote: Sevastopolets15
    And about the zero efficiency, I won’t even argue and prove it-Trigger-Happy, read the memories of the same German warriors, they really hated the work of Po-2 at night.

    Harassment bombing - does this term tell you anything? Anxiety, basically sleep deprivation! (by the way, "Mosquito" was engaged in one of the use cases - the same, provoking air raids over German cities even when there was no real serious raid - a flock of Mosquitoes just flew in and dropped at least some bombs).

    Quote: Olezhek
    The night was dark, no one saw anyone.
    Well, find me at least one mention of the Fw-189 attacks on the Po-2; there are none, occasionally in the memories of our "night lighthouses" mentions of some mysterious night fighters slip through, and only ... Moreover, as the article specifically indicated that the command of the "owl" units (and other German "night lights"), when their the planes flew out to hunt, asked the Wehrmacht not to use any anti-aircraft searchlights or open anti-aircraft fire from the ground. In order not to blind your eyes and so that your own people are not shot down by chance.
  35. hohol95
    hohol95 28 March 2016 23: 15 New
    0
    Argue, argue ......... Why argue, find books on SU-2 and FW-189 from EXMO !!! And the whole argument!
  36. hohol95
    hohol95 28 March 2016 23: 16 New
    0
    And at the same time on P-5! The legendary plane !!! He was a reconnaissance and attack aircraft, spotter, torpedo bomber, but who he just was not!
  37. complete zero
    complete zero 29 March 2016 00: 10 New
    -1
    It was really difficult to knock it down (and even for Mig) a high-altitude air-cooled ICE, a three-stage supercharger ... in general, this pepelats felt really good at altitudes of 7-8 km ... unlike ours (Soviet cars)
  38. hardroc
    hardroc 29 March 2016 02: 36 New
    0
    Quote: Warrior2015
    Fw-189 Bulgarian Air Force on the Eastern Front

    This is an exaggeration. Such aircraft were not and could not be. The USSR and Bulgaria, until the time of the Soviet attack on Bulgaria (September 1944), were not at war. Throughout the war, embassies functioned and countries maintained diplomatic relations.
  39. Warrior2015
    29 March 2016 10: 58 New
    0
    Quote: hohol95
    And at the same time on P-5! The legendary plane !!! He was a reconnaissance and attack aircraft, spotter, torpedo bomber, but who he just was not!
    If you like him so much and if he was such a super-plane, then create an article about him! open the topic!

    I wrote an article in which the topic of little-known areas of combat use of Fw-189 was revealed, and as it turned out for many, the raised aspects of the issue were absolute news.

    Quote: full zero
    It was really difficult to knock it down (and even for Mig) a high-altitude ICE of air cooling, a three-stage supercharger ... in general, this pepelats felt really good at altitudes of 7-8 km ...
    Are you talking about the "frame"? it has already been repeatedly indicated that the counter was not only in the engines but in the unique strength of the structure itself.

    Quote: hardroc
    Such aircraft were not and could not be. USSR and Bulgaria, until the Soviet attack on Bulgaria (September 1944)
    The term "Eastern Front" is a broad concept that includes the confrontation between Germany and the satellite countries and the USSR with the allies, and there were "frames" in Bulgaria - see above for supplies.

    By the way, I was very surprised that for some reason information about not just a reconstructed, but a flying copy of the Fw-189 in the UK caused no reaction, and the pilot, who made a hard landing on it, survived the war, found himself and was able to board the plane again! Personally, before working on the material, this was completely unknown to me, moreover, I also did not see such cases in relation to our pilots ...
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 29 March 2016 11: 20 New
      0
      Quote: Warrior2015
      and there were "frames" in Bulgaria - see above for deliveries.

      Nobody argues with this.
  40. Olezhek
    Olezhek 29 March 2016 14: 16 New
    +1
    Whereas a very distinctive silhouette of the “frame” that mainly worked at low and medium heights was clearly visible and easily recognizable.
    other types of high-speed scouts, mostly used by the Germans in 1943-1945, were hardly noticeable and hardly recognizable


    They have already written, but I will write again: the 189-th chip was precisely in the ability to hang over our positions for a long time and low, causing and adjusting the artillery and the attacks of the dive bombers / bombers
    This is a real "hit" for the infantry.
    If someone "whizzed high and fast in the heavens" - it is far from so scary.
  41. Warrior2015
    29 March 2016 15: 59 New
    0
    Quote: Olezhek
    189's trick was precisely in its ability to hang over our positions for a long and short time, causing and correcting artillery fire and strikes by dive bombers / bombers
    This is a real "hit" for the infantry.
    If someone "whizzed high and fast in the heavens" - it is far from so scary.

    The fact is that, as noted above, in this hypostasis of the artillery spotter Fw-189, as well as the more primitive Hs-126 and Storch, for example, were used on the Eastern Front only in 1941-42. Beginning in 1943, not only the quantitative, but also the qualitative growth of the Soviet Air Force began to affect, and from the summer of 43 the "frames" were gradually transferred to other areas of activity. In the spring of 1944, a direct order appeared prohibiting the use of the Fw-189, even with strong fighter cover as an artillery spotter during the day in the front line, only for rear operations or at night. Well, the Germans simply could not have successfully used the constantly hanging slow spotters from 43-44 years. There was only one option - "just whistled high in the sky."
  42. Dekabrev
    Dekabrev 29 March 2016 22: 47 New
    0
    At the very beginning of the discussion, a reference to a very good film for fighter pilots. Everything is simple and businesslike there. It was impossible to twist the bends on the fighter. It was only necessary to go in from the front from below or from the side. Shot and rolled off. Otherwise, you will receive it yourself. From such angles, from the first call in a short burst only a sniper could get into a maneuvering aircraft. And the frame was sure to maneuver, since only the pilot who did not notice the attack did not maneuver, and with six eyes on board and such a view as the frame did not notice the attack. By the way, I read, somehow, the memories of a fighter. So he argued that the planes shot down, mainly during an unexpected attack, if the attacker did not notice this attack, then he does not maneuver and you can aim well. And they rarely shot down in a dog dump. This mainly concerned maneuverable aircraft, since that fighter flew at the end of the war and almost did not see German bombers. By the way, Hartman, it seems, claimed that he shot down most of the aircraft according to one scheme - he dived behind the attacker away from his tail a little lower so that he could not see and fired from behind from below. That's the whole secret of craftsmanship. Of course, all his movements were honed to automatism and his eyes were trained, but he himself did not describe the wealth of receptions. Here is the reason for the survivability of the frame. Silently not sneak up, do not hang for a long time behind, do not aim. Therefore, only an ass, who could immediately get to the right place in a short burst, could bring down, well, or if he was lucky.
  43. complete zero
    complete zero April 3 2016 09: 58 New
    +1
    Quote: Aspeed
    Quote: full zero
    It was really difficult to knock it down (and even for Mig) a high-altitude air-cooled ICE, a three-stage supercharger ... in general, this pepelats felt really good at altitudes of 7-8 km ... unlike ours (Soviet cars)

    ... it sounds especially cool if you remember that the maximum ceiling of the "frame" with its two dead low-power engines is 7300 meters. And the real flight altitude is not more than 5000 meters, because
    1) Above 5000, he barely keeps in the air
    2) Even with 5000 "frame" on the ground does not see anything, but it is, in fact, a spotter, and must observe the ground, see artillery explosions, for example. Therefore, the real flight height of the "frame" is no more than 3000.

    who sang such a fable to you ... do not read old newspapers