Military Review

Cathar locks (part of 3)

That would have been a generous gift I -
Horse mighty - I would for the king

Under Balagierom carried patrols sensitively.
In Provence, Cros and Montpellier - Massacre.
And the knights are like a flock of crows,
Shameless bastard robber.
Peire Vidal. Translation by V. Dynnik

The ruins of the castle Peyperpertyuz. As you can see, the castle was ideally tied to the terrain, so getting to its walls was very difficult. And the entrance to it was defended by several walls, one after another!

Cathar locks (part of 3)

View of the mountain and the castle of Montsegur. My first thought was how people got there, and most importantly, how did they build this castle there? After all, to look from the bottom and it is hard - the cap falls off!

Yes, but what helped Qatar to hold out for so long against the army of the Crusaders, who in abundance had throwing machines and various projectiles for them? Their faith and fortitude? Of course, this and the other helps in many ways, but Carcassonne gave up because of the lack of water, although it was a first-class fortress at that time. No, the Cathars in France were helped by their locks, built in such hard-to-reach places, that it was extremely difficult to take them by storm or siege. About Carcassonne, which is today the largest fortified citadel of Western Europe, having 52 towers and three whole rings of fortifications with a total length of more than 3 km, there was already a large article on TOPWAR pages, so it makes no sense to repeat. But about many other Cathar castles the story will now continue.

Puylorance Castle

Not far from Carcassonne is Peypertürz Castle, and he, like the neighboring Puilorans, Caribus, Aguilar and Therme castles, was one of the outposts of the Cathars, which were located south of Carcassonne. And it was not just a castle, but a small fortified city at the intersection of the Corbières and Fenuied mountains - with the streets, the cathedral of Sts. Mary (XII-XIII centuries) and fortifications 300 m long and 60 m wide - in fact a kind of Small Carcassonne. The fortress wall, the castle and the donjon Saint-Jordi were built by order of Louis IX, who wished to have an impregnable fortress here. But the old castle located below was built before the crusade against the heretics and belonged to Guillaume de Peiraperties, the most influential lord in these parts. For twenty years, Guillaume fought with the royal troops and conquered the king only after the suppression of the 1240 uprising of the year — the last attempt of the Count of Tranquale to win back Carcassonne.

Just below the fortified village on the spur between the hollows of two rivers at a distance of only half a day on foot from Carcassonne, in the direction to the southeast, the ruins of Senessors Castle Sessak rise. Moreover, the ties between them were long-standing and strong, because Roger II Tranquawel (died in 1194) chose the lord de Sessac as guardian for his nine-year-old son Raymond Roger, the future new viscount of Carcassonne.

In the courtyard of the castle Sessak.

At the end of the 12th century, there were many heretics of both sexes in Sessak: “perfect” and deacons received “believers” in their homes and directly in the castle itself.

Donjon and several vaulted halls that have reached our time date back to the epoch when the castle was captured by Simon de Montfort, who met no resistance here. Senor Sessak himself "went to the partisans" and therefore was considered an exile. Before the establishment of peace, the fortress repeatedly changed hands. In the 13th century it was restored by the French, and in the 16th century it was also rebuilt.

Donjon one of the strongholds of seniors Cabaret.

They used Cathars and four senor cabaret locks — the cabaret castle itself, the Surdespine castle (or Fleurdspin), the Curtine castle and Tour Reginae — real eagle nests on the tops of steep mountains surrounded by gorges and located close to the triangle within direct view of each other. They are also called Lastur castles, since they are located in the commune of the same name. They are only two or three hours on foot to the north of Carcassonne. The mountainous landscape here is harsh, but these lands are rich in deposits of iron, copper, silver and gold, which brought wealth to the Cabar lords. At the end of the XII century, these possessions belonged to the brothers Pierre-Roger and Jourdin de Cabare, the major vassals of the Viscount of Carcassonne. They harbored the heretics and patronized their churches, and hosted the troubadours — the singers of courtly love, which they themselves also indulged in, so that it left a noticeable mark on their family chronicle.

The next castle is the lords of Cabaret. The one that was in the previous photo is visible in the distance. And it becomes absolutely clear that it was simply impossible to besiege all four of these locks at once, and to take them in turn - only time to lose!

Simon de Montfort did not succeed in capturing Cabaret. In 1209, the fighting here did not last long: too many people were required for the simultaneous siege of all the castles, and too much time was needed for their sequential seizure, since the use of siege machines against the locks located on the tops with a steep ascent was excluded. Meanwhile, the garrison, which included a lot of "expelled" seniors, ambushed, attacked a convoy of crusaders from fifty spearmen and one hundred infantrymen and took Senor Pierre de Marley hostage, de Montfort's companion, who at that time was just the three locks and besieged.

Here they are - all the locks of the senors of Cabar one by one ...

At the end of 1210, several seniors leave the cabaret and surrender to the crusaders. Minerva Castle was surrendered, then Terme Castle. Pierre-Roger realized that, in the end, he could not resist, and hurried to save all the "perfect" and "believers" who were with him, after which in 1211 he surrendered to his own prisoner Pierre de Marly, while at the same time saying that surrendered will be saved life.

The modern layout of the Terme castle as it was in 1210.

Ten years later, his son Pierre-Roger Jr. conquered all three of these locks and father’s lands, after which more than thirty rebel lords gathered in the Cabaret, which turned him into one of the centers of resistance of the Cathars, which stopped only in 1229, when Louis IX forced the patrons of their lords to make peace with him. But even before this, all heretics, including their bishop, had been evacuated and sheltered in safe places. The last uprising took place in August 1240, when Raymond Tranquavel again led his army to Carcassonne. Señoram de Cabaret and their mother, the noble lady of Orbri, then managed to regain all these castles, but in October it was all lost again, and this time forever.

When Simon de Montfort captured the region of Minervois in the spring of 1210, he failed to capture two locks: the Minerva and the Vantage. Minerva Castle became a place of refuge for his lord Guillaume de Minerva and several other lords who were expelled from their lands. In mid-June, Montfort approached a castle with a large army. The village and the castle were located on a rocky spur of a limestone plateau, where the gorges of two mountain streams converged, which almost completely dry up in summer. The narrow passage to the plateau was blocked by a castle, the village was surrounded by steep ravines, and the walls and towers of the castle were a continuation of this natural defense, so sending troops to the assault under these conditions turned out to be simply impossible. Therefore, Montfort chose to surround the castle, setting at each position on the catapult, and the most powerful of them, even having a proper name - Malvoisin, Monfort put in his camp.

A non-stop bombardment of the castle began, walls and roofs collapsed, stone cores killed people, the passage to a single well with water was destroyed. On the night of June 27, several volunteers managed to take by surprise and destroy the gun crew at Malvauzin, but they, in turn, were caught in place and did not have time to set it on fire. There was a strong heat, there was no possibility to bury the numerous dead, which greatly facilitated the task of the Crusaders. In the seventh week of the siege, Guillaume de Minerv surrendered, uttering the condition that all the vanquished would be saved. The Crusaders entered the fortress, occupied the Romanesque church (it has survived to the present day) and offered the Cathars to renounce their faith. One hundred and forty "perfect" men and women refused and went up to the fire themselves. The remaining residents went to reconciliation with the Catholic Church. When Minerv was taken, he gave up and Vantazhu. Later, the fortress was destroyed, and only ruins remained of it, including the octahedral tower "La Candela", resembling with its masonry Narbonne Gate in Carcassonne. Only a few stones left here and there today remind of the walls of the once mighty castle of Seniors Minerv.

It was cramped in the castle Munsegur, what to say!

Known to almost everyone who has even heard a little about the Cathars, the castle of Montsegur was built in Ariege on the top of a steep and lonely cliff Raymond de Perey by the son of heretics Guillaume-Roger de Mierpois and his wife Furniers de Perey. This was done at the request of "perfect" of the four Qatari dioceses of Languedoc, gathered in 1206 year in Mironpois. They felt that if information about the impending persecution of them is confirmed, then Montsegur (which means “reliable mountain”) will be a safe haven for them. Raymond de Perey set to work and built a castle on the very steep part of the cliff and a village next to it. From the very beginning of the war in 1209 and until the siege in 1243, Montsegur played the role of refuge where the local Cathars were hiding when the Crusaders approached this area. In 1232, the Toulouse Bishop of Cathars Gilaber de Castres arrived in Montsegur with two assistants and "perfect" - only about thirty high-ranking clergymen accompanied by three knights. He asked Raymond de Pereyat to agree that Montsegur would become “house and head” for his church, and, having weighed all the pros and cons, would take this step.

Donjon Castle Montsegur. Inside view.

Taking as assistants an experienced warrior, and his cousin, and subsequently his son-in-law, Pierre-Roger de Mierpois, he composed the castle garrison of eleven "exiled" knights and sergeants, infantrymen, horsemen and riflemen, organized his defense. In addition, he also provided all the necessary inhabitants of the village located next to him, whose population numbered from 400 to 500 people. Food and feed supplies, escort and protection of the “perfect” during their visits to the villages, land tax collection - all this required constant traveling, therefore the garrison of Montsegur constantly increased, and its influence grew; Many sympathizers, artisans and merchants came to the castle, keeping in touch with the holy people, whose abode could be seen on the horizon from virtually any place in Languedoc.

The first and ineffectual siege of the castle by the troops of the Count of Toulouse, which thus maintained the appearance of cooperation with the king, dates from 1241. In 1242, Pierre-Roger, at the head of the experienced warriors, raided Avignon, killed the priests and brothers-inquisitors gathered there, and devastated everything in his path. This served as a signal for another uprising in the Languedoc, which, however, was brutally suppressed. In 1243, all rebels, except the Cathar of Montsegur, signed the world. The French decided to destroy this nest of heresy and besieged the castle in early June, but until mid-December nothing much happened in its vicinity. Shortly before Christmas, two "perfect" secretly removed the church treasury to the cave of Sabartes. Meanwhile, the royal troops still managed to get to the top, and throwing guns were set at the walls of the castle. It ended with the fact that 2 March, Pierre-Roger de Mierpois, nevertheless surrendered the fortress, soldiers and ordinary people left it, they were saved life and freedom, but the "perfect" of both sexes, including their Bishop Marty, was offered a choice - renounce faith or go to the fire. A few days later, roughly 15 numbers, the fortress was opened, and 257 heretics, men, women, and even children, went up to a fire surrounded by a fence of spears. This place to this day is called the Field of the Burned.

Legend says that in those days when the walls of Montsegur were intact, the Cathars kept the Holy Grail there. When Montsegur was in danger, he was laid siege to the armies of Darkness in order to return the Holy Grail to the tiara of the Prince of the World, from which he fell when the angels fell, at the most critical moment a dove descended from heaven, which with its beak smashed Montsegur into two parts. The keepers of the Grail threw him into the depths of the cleft. The mountain closed again, and the Grail was saved. When the army of Darkness nevertheless entered the fortress, it was already too late. The furious crusaders burned all the accomplished not far from the cliff, there now stands the Pillar of the Burned. All of them died at the stake, except four. When they saw that the Grail was saved, they left through underground passages into the bowels of the Earth and continue to perform their mysterious rites in underground churches there. Such here history about Montsegure and the Grail tell in the Pyrenees still today.

After the capitulation of Montsegur, the peak of Keribus, ascended to the height of 728 m, in the very heart of the Upper Corbières, remained the last impregnable refuge of heretics. There they could stop during their wanderings - some for a while, and some forever. The citadel was surrendered only in 1255 year, eleven years after the capture of Montsegur, most likely after the departure or death of the last "committed", such as, for example, Benoit de Thermes, the main bishop of Razes, about which from the year 1229 he received Asylum in this castle, there was no news. Keribus is a rare type of dungeon with truncated edges; Today it has a large gothic hall open to the public.

Castle Keribus.

Another similar castle - Puilorance, like Keribus, was built on a mountain 697 meters high. At the end of the tenth century, he moved to the abbey of Saint-Michel de Cuix. The French northerners did not succeed in capturing this fortress, in which the seniors expelled from everywhere found shelter. But after the end of the war, it was abandoned. However, this is probably the reason why its defenses are so well preserved: the donjon of the XI-XII centuries. and the serrated clumps with round towers on his sides seem to be challenging to time. It was possible to get into the castle only along a ramp with partitions, and the steepness of the rock protected its walls from stone cores and from possible digs for them.

In the castle of Carcassonne and now you can make a movie, which, by the way, they are doing there!

Puyver Castle is located in the Kerkorb area. It was built in the XII century on the shore of the lake (it disappeared in the XIII century) on a mound, towering over a nearby village. The open landscape here pleases the eyes much more than the wild cliffs, on which most of the Qatari castles are located. And, nevertheless, this castle also belonged to the Cathars - the feudal Congost family, connected by numerous marriage with noble families of heretics throughout Languedoc. So Bernard de Congost married Arpaix de Mierpois, sister of the lord of Montsegur, and his captain's cousin. At Puywere, she surrounded herself with a retinue of enlightened people, poets and musicians, which was fashionable in that era in the Provencal lands and lived to its fullest pleasure, without denying anything to herself. Shortly before the crusade against the heretics, she felt unwell and asked to be taken to the “perfect”, where she died after receiving “consolation” in the presence of her son Guillaume and loved ones. Remained loyal to the Qatari heresy, Bernard died in Montsegur in 1232, while Guillaume and his cousin Bernard de Congost later participated in the devastating raid on Avignon with the Monsegur garrison. Both of them will protect these sacred places to the very end.

This castle itself, when in the autumn of 1210, Montfort approached it with its troops, was held for only three days, after which it was taken and handed over to the French lord Lambert de Turi. At the end of the century, it became the property of the Bruyere family, thanks to which in the 15th century it was greatly expanded and re-enclosed with a magnificent fortress wall. The square donjon of the castle consists of three rooms, one above the other. In the upper hall you can see eight wonderful consoles with sculptural images of musicians and musical instruments, reminiscent of the times of the lady of Arpaix, so far from our days, and belonging to her retinue "troubadours of love".

One of the most unusual Qatari castles is the Ark Castle, built for some reason on a plain. Its walls are low, but there is an impressively large donjon!

Here it is - the donjon of Ark Castle!

Side tower donjon castle Ark. Inside view.

Ark Castle was also erected not in the mountains, but on a plain, and now only its donjon with four corner towers is left from it. The castle wall that surrounded the castle was almost completely destroyed, but the elegant silhouette of a four-story donjon, currently covered with soft pink tiles, rises above the surroundings as before. Its internal structure also testifies to the great skill and ingenuity of the masters of the Languedoc of that distant pore, which managed to create such strong and monumental structures that they resisted not only against the cruelty and unreasonableness of people, but also for many centuries successfully resisted both the forces of nature and even the most implacable time.

And as a memory of that time, at the foot of Montsegur, there is still a cross on the “Field of Burnt”!
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  1. alekc75
    alekc75 April 1 2016 07: 43
    when they begin to write about our fortresses, we know very little our history of fortresses!
    1. kalibr
      April 1 2016 09: 51
      When? Probably when associate professors of provincial universities will be paid so much that they can just take it and ... go see Pskov or Novgorod, and then sit down and write about what they saw. And not on vacation, but in the academic year, in free time from classes. And there are also universities in cities where there are our fortresses, and these universities have departments of Russian history, where you can write and ask - "why are you not educating people, huh?" That's how it is ... But, by the way, there is a very good book by Nosov about Russian fortresses.
      1. AK64
        AK64 April 1 2016 12: 53
        Probably then, when the associate professors of provincial universities will be paid so much that they can take it like this and ... go see Pskov or Novgorod, and then sit down and write about what they saw.

        So-so .... Associate professors have enough money for Languedoc, but doesn’t mean for Pskov?
        1. kalibr
          April 1 2016 21: 37
          "And not on vacation, but in the academic year, in free time from classes."
    2. Vend
      Vend April 1 2016 09: 59
      Quote: alekc75
      when they begin to write about our fortresses, we know very little our history of fortresses!

      They write often. It’s more difficult to break through such articles. For example, I already wrote about Ladoga, on the site you can see here
      You can also read about the fortress of the north of Izborsk, here is the link
      1. kalibr
        April 1 2016 10: 37
        Well, you see ... And it’s unlikely that any obstacles were repaired to you in these materials.
        1. Vend
          Vend April 1 2016 12: 40
          Quote: kalibr
          Well, you see ... And it’s unlikely that any obstacles were repaired to you in these materials.

          An article about Izborsk failed.
    3. Vedzmin
      Vedzmin 10 February 2018 12: 05
      What are the cheap lamentations? The Internet is in front of you, but you cannot find information or books about Russian fortresses ?!
  2. parusnik
    parusnik April 1 2016 07: 58
    Even before the outbreak of the Albigensian Wars, rumors spread throughout Europe about the untold treasures of the Cathars. It was assumed that they were all hidden in the caves and dungeons of Montsegur. After the Cathar fortress fell, the crusaders did not find anything more or less of interest in it. Three months before the fall of the citadel, two "perfect" left the fortress. According to later written reports, they brought out the treasures of the Cathars - gold, silver and coins, which were first hidden in a fortified mountain cave, and then in some other fortress. The besiegers presented soft conditions for the surrender of the fortress: all soldiers were granted forgiveness for their crimes , and also allowed free exit from the fortress along with their property and valuables, all “perfect” were declared freedom if they renounce their heretical delusions and bring repentance to the Inquisition for their sins. To discuss these conditions, the defenders of Montsegur asked for a two-week truce. During the truce, despite all the dangers, four more "committed" fled on the night of March 16 and took with them the legendary treasure of the Cathars. The "perfect" ones bore the names Hugo, Eckar, Clamen and Emwell. I don't know anything more about them. I myself organized their escape, they took our treasures and documents with them. All the Qatari secrets were contained in the bundle. " ... It's hard to believe in the "Holy Grail" ..
    Thank you for a walk in Languedoc ...
  3. Riv
    Riv April 1 2016 09: 46
    Romance ... Unless of course you remember how it stank in castles besieged over the years. But today we are not talking about this, today we are talking about something else.

    Cathars (fr. Catiers, that is, "cat worshipers") - a contemptuous nickname that has become a common name. Christian heresy, preaching the equality of good and evil, while the material world was considered exactly evil, ruled by Satan. It has a very long history, but they managed to "organize", having formed their own church, only in the XII century. At the same time, the resulting structure turned out to be very strong. She relied on large feudal lords who remained independent from the royal power and was viewed by the feudal lords as a counterbalance to the unifying tendency of the Roman Church. It is obvious that it was beneficial for the Pope to support precisely absolutism. If the king is obedient, then it is easier to plant Catholicism through him, and if not, we will incite our neighbors against him. In general, it was more profitable for the monarch to be obedient. Thus, the new (or rather very old, but stimulated) heresy was immediately regarded by the Catholic Church as enemy number one. The war was inevitable and it began.

    It was then that the Inquisition was created. Initially, oddly enough, as a deterrent. Having taken a city where catharism prevailed, the troops usually did not stand on ceremony, letting in everyone who did not have time to escape, according to the principle: "The Lord will recognize his own!" Waste of human resources did not suit the Pope. Therefore, they tried to persuade the "lost" to come to terms with Catholicism and renounce heresy. Punitive measures were usually not applied to those who agreed and repented. It was then that the inquisitors would get mired in corruption and start hunting witches, and at that time the word "inquisitor" meant an impartial judge. Thanks to the authority of the Dominican monks, the result was achieved, the mass auto-da-fe ceased.

    And then - sieges, assaults, taken castles of rebellious seniors ... Romance of the civil war.
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid April 1 2016 12: 46
      Yes, many Treasures can be revealed --- someone is lucky: the treasures of Captain Morgan, Stepan Razin, "the gold of the Church", "the gold of the Party" ...
  4. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer April 1 2016 10: 41
    Fortress of San Marino.
    Located at an altitude of more than 700 meters above sea level at the top of Monte Titano.
    Two of the three castles are built on cliffs overhanging the abyss. View of the fortress of Chest (Fratta)
  5. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer April 1 2016 10: 44
    View of the fortress of Gauita (San Marino)
    1. kalibr
      April 1 2016 11: 57
      It is not very far from Rimini, and some of the hotels on the beach are just 2 km away. But this will be the goal of the next "race".
  6. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 April 1 2016 11: 07
    Dear Vyacheslav, as always, presented excellent material! Indeed, like a walk along the Languedoc!

    Quote: Riv
    Obviously, it was beneficial for the Pope to support absolutism.
    Yeah, of course, before the advent of which in France there were 300 years ... wink

    Quote: Riv
    Having taken a city where catharism prevailed, the troops usually did not stand on ceremony, letting in everyone who did not have time to escape, according to the principle: "The Lord will recognize his own!"
    In one of the articles of this cycle, it was already discussed that this was the ONLY example of this kind, namely the intimidation action at the beginning of the military campaign, after which it was basically not practiced.

    And so, the Catholic Inquisition appeared in the 11 century, when the first strong spiritual problems appeared, they just don't know much about it, after which this institute went through a number of stages.
    1. Riv
      Riv April 1 2016 12: 20
      You again? Do not forget to take the pills, wear black socks, as I advised you and do not meddle with your people with normal people.

      Purely for clarification, why exactly black socks: absolutism is a political system in which the supreme power is not limited to representative institutions. What representative institutions could exist under Louis the Eighth?
      And the absolute monarchy is a kind of monarchical form of government (the difference is clear?), And the same Louis the Eighth adhered to this particular form.

      Well, you do not know the question - sit upright. Why show your absolute (well, attached ...) stupidity?
      1. AK64
        AK64 April 1 2016 12: 52
        Boor, and boorish ignorant: the writing about the Cathars above is a fantasy: you can find more on Wiki.
        1. Riv
          Riv April 1 2016 15: 07
          You know better from Pendostania. Did you think that the Soviet system of education was ineffective?
          1. AK64
            AK64 April 1 2016 15: 26
            The photo is in essence

            / and suggested a banana /
  7. Uncle Murzik
    Uncle Murzik April 1 2016 12: 02
    informative article, thanks to the author! grandiose structures, it is difficult to imagine how they can be stormed!
    1. Riv
      Riv April 1 2016 12: 30
      And they were not stormed. The complexity of the approach to the castle is not only a plus, but also a minus. It was enough to block (just dig a good ditch across) the road leading to it and the garrison ceased to pose a threat. Let them sit until each other begins to eat, or the water runs out. Only loners will be able to get out of the fortress on steep slopes. And when they start farther from the cholera and dysentery from the walls further than they see, they will surrender themselves.

      Have you watched "Arrows of Robin Hood"? Completely unhistorical. In fact, to climb tall walls - there were few fools.
  8. nnz226
    nnz226 April 1 2016 12: 04
    That's interesting: they built castles on top of the rocks! And where was the water taken ??? During a siege, thirst is the main enemy! Or a rock drilled through a rock to an aquifer?
    1. Riv
      Riv April 1 2016 12: 37
      Yes, hollowed. Under the same Carcassonne were deep catacombs. The main local legend there is about the treasures hidden in them. Sometimes they even find something.
      In fact, the stone for construction in the catacombs was most often taken. About Odessa heard how they formed? The same thing, only on a smaller scale. Why carry blocks to distant lands, if there is a rock under your feet? And of course, they nibbled the rock outside, as they could.
      1. xan
        xan April 1 2016 14: 22
        Carcassonne is understandable, but how to dig a well for Montsegur? It is hard to believe that you can hollow hundreds of meters in a rock. Anyway, you can build a castle in an impregnable place, but a castle is needed where it can not only protect, but also create acceptable conditions for existence.
        1. Riv
          Riv April 1 2016 15: 02
          But they did. Why not? There is time. Drive a dozen convicts with pickaxes into the tunnel and say that there is a will on the other side of the rock. If you do not give the norm - do not feed. Dead - pound a dozen more.
        2. AK64
          AK64 April 1 2016 15: 28
          how to dig a well for Montsegur?

          There was a tank, they collected rainwater. This is a pretty common practice.

          Think about who built it and how much it cost. And for what. (The territory is safe!)

          Not surprisingly, the peasants remained Catholics, and the Cathars were feudal lords and a small part of the bourgeoisie.
      2. kalibr
        April 1 2016 19: 31
        Yes, in Karksson I saw a well in the tower to the left of the entrance and ... at the bottom a lot of coins! And a well right in the city, under a beautiful roof. But I don’t know about the above locks. There were probably tanks too.
    2. kalibr
      April 1 2016 19: 29
      In Montsegur there was a rainwater collection tank. It rains there often.
  9. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid April 1 2016 12: 50
    Thank you very much for the continuation of the wonderful topic! I was surprised to learn about the castle of Arc. It turns out that it was Qatari !!! And Joan of Arc ??? A lot of contradictory things are being written about her now.
    1. Riv
      Riv April 1 2016 13: 25
      Well what are you! Jeanne will be born two hundred years later in another locality. The Cathars had by then become a forgotten story. Although ... What if the name of his father came just from those places? What if the father, although considered a peasant, was one of the descendants of the Cathar nobles? Jeanne, after all, played court games beautifully, including those requiring the possession of a sword, owned weapons, and she carried armor not at all like a peasant. What if catarism persisted in the family? After all, they burned her not for witchcraft, but just for heresy ...
      How to know? ..
    2. AK64
      AK64 April 1 2016 13: 35
      I was surprised to learn about the castle of Arc. It turns out it was Qatari !!! And Joan of Arc ???

      And so the fomen are born ....
      Are there few Malivans in France, that is, Arches, that is, arches ??
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid April 1 2016 13: 45
        That's why I ask people whose opinion I trust, because I have heard about Jeanne’s highness for a long time and in different subjects.
        Thank you for your reply!
        1. AK64
          AK64 April 1 2016 13: 50
          It is believed that Jeanne is the illegitimate daughter of the king (apparently, Charles 6th). Hence her amazing career
          1. Riv
            Riv April 1 2016 14: 57
            This is exactly conspiracy theology.

            It is not enough to be the daughter of a king. Jeanne from childhood should have been raised as a noblewoman. Is this real in a peasant family, even if it is prosperous? If the king suddenly decided to take care of the bastard, then why didn’t he attach the child to a decent family? There was nothing shameful in this. Bastards of the nobility ran in herds and taking care of their own, even illegitimate child, was even considered a good form. This was also useful from a practical point of view: what if you have no more children? Recognize the bastard - and here it is, the heir.

            Another nuance: the noble bastard received the parent coat of arms, with an additional band on the left. It was customary. If Jeanne had the right to the emblem of the royal house - she would undoubtedly have taken advantage of this right.

            However, you are there, in the States, from childhood all the nobles, including blacks ...
      2. Riv
        Riv April 1 2016 14: 58
        "- But you never know Pedro in Brazil? And do not count! .."
    3. kalibr
      April 1 2016 19: 32
      Jeanne was from another Arch! This one is southern, and that one is northern!
  10. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 April 1 2016 18: 16
    Quote: Riv
    If the king suddenly decided to take care of the bastard, then why didn’t he attach the child to a decent family?

    So, for reference, some people who believe that they understand the subject - the family in which Jeanne-Virgo - D'Arca grew up - were not actually peasants, even wealthy ones, they were impoverished noblemen, a kind of analogue of the Polish gentry or Russian noblemen-odnodniks.

    And they were hardly related to the heresy of the Cathars. Judging by the Protocols of the Zhanna-Deva trial, everything is generally muddy there; the visions there are very different, the fact that the girl communicated with the world of spirits is for sure. But the big question remains - which ones. And if the Catholic Church dropped the accusation of heretical a few years later, then nobody was going to recognize her as a saint for 500 years, they said that everything was very ambiguous and there were not enough grounds for canonization. And only at the beginning of the 20 century they decided ...
    1. Riv
      Riv April 1 2016 19: 13
      What? Who communicated with the spirit world ??? Survived! On topvar, they are seriously discussing spiritualism. :))

      "Jacques d'Arc was born in 1375 or 1380 in Seffon, diocese of Troyes, Haute-Marne, as testified by his descendant - Charles du Lis. The house where he was born later passed to his younger son - Jean d'Arc. How and the Jeanne Museum in Domrémy, this house decorated with a corresponding plaque has survived to this day.
      Having married Isabella Roma, he moved to Domremi, where he was engaged in arable farming, owned "twenty hectares of land, of which 12 was arable land, four - meadows, and four more - forests", horses and a fairly large herd of sheep and cows. "

      This, by the way, is from a wiki. Nobleman, yeah. With a pitchfork.

      "In 1429 he received the title of nobility and with it the aristocratic surname du Lys."

      From there. He received the nobility two years before his daughter was burned. Do you understand?
      Your attempts to show off your knowledge here are dull and helpless, like Petrosyan at KVN.
  11. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 April 1 2016 20: 07
    Quote: Riv
    This, by the way, is from a wiki. Nobleman, yeah. With a pitchfork.

    Read about how many Polish grassroots noblemen or Russian noblemen nobles, according to which I have already told you, conducted their households, and maybe you will change your mind.

    Quote: Riv
    What? Who communicated with the spirit world ??

    You have probably forgotten that Jeanne was tried by the church court on charges of "witchcraft, heresy and summoning spirits"? or didn't you? laughing But you obviously didn’t read the judicial protocols, what really ... And there oh, how many interesting things ... Therefore, 500 of the years Zhanna was not canonized.

    Quote: Riv
    He received the nobility two years before his daughter was burned. Do you understand?
    Everything is dull there. You probably don't know that Jeanne's father Jacques d'Arc was not just a "peasant" (in your opinion), but he could read, write and count very well, so much so that he was in charge of collecting taxes from the Domremy district.

    Even the original 15 century tax collection document, compiled and certified by him personally, has been preserved !!!

    Do you understand? yes A simple peasant, of course ...

    Now about the mother of Jeanne Virgin. You still say that her name was Roma? So, this is just her nickname from the locals! In fact, her mother's name was Isabella де Wooton. It was simply inappropriate in Soviet books to speak of aristocratic roots, it was easier to say that a simple girl from the people took it and rose.

    Another thing is that Isabella de Vouton herself was ashamed of her noble origin, despite the poverty of her financial situation, and she herself preferred to be called "Roma".

    You see, the aristocracy is different. It is only in the Soviet representation that all the nobles live in castles and arrange feasts. There was another aristocracy, with much more modest incomes.

    Quote: Riv
    Your attempts to show your knowledge here are dull and helpless,
    Unfortunately, your level of knowledge does not even allow you to make such an attempt. wassat
    1. AK64
      AK64 April 2 2016 04: 32
      Everything is dull there. You probably don't know that Jeanne's father Jacques d'Arc was not just a "peasant" (in your opinion), but he could read, write and count very well, so much so that he was in charge of collecting taxes from the Domremy district.

      Considering Jeanne's set of skills (to dance, ride a horse, embroider a bisseur, read and write, wield arms, maintain a carte conversation, not at all embarrassed by the nobility, did not blow her nose in her skirt, and did not wipe her hands on the skirt after eating, played well the games of the nobility, and t / d and t / p ....)
      she was brought up. Seriously brought up.

      So the nobleman was hardly poor. "Poor" in the sense of "not a graph" is possible. But someone paid for the upbringing of Jeanne.
  12. Andr-nik
    Andr-nik 29 May 2021 23: 12
    Cathars or simply distorted Tatars, from the banks of the Volga, ALBIGOYTSY or simply white Goyim. Goy you are a good fellow?
    The distant ancestors of the Russians who went to conquer the World, those same 10 tribes of Israel, who conquered Livonia (modern Europe) and became military garrisons in the conquered lands. It was during the Great Troubles in Russia that the Satanists - the Latin Patriarchs (and not the Crusaders) of the Vatican, who fled from Judea (or Byzantium), began the war of the papists to destroy the Qatari garrisons. This war continues to this day, and Russia-Russia is losing its lands occupied by NATO troops.
    It was the garrisons of the Cathars (Tatars) who in 1185 accepted the wife and children of the deposed and executed Byzantine emperor Andronicus Comnenus (Jesus Christ) into their ranks and created the Semei (clan) church of his wife Mary Magdalene. It was in the Qatari garrisons during the papist wars that the heirs of Andronicus and Vera (Veronica), the wife of Jesus and his First Apostle, hid, and it was just before the fall of the castle of Montsegur that a breakthrough of a small detachment was carried out, which was able to break through the cordon of the papists and go to Russia with the heirs of blood Isus. This blood is among us, it has survived to this day. And a little time will pass and the throne of Russia will be headed by a Man, in whose veins flows the Roman or Royal blood, the blood of Jesus Christ, or as he was called in Russia, Prince Andrei Bogolyubsky.