Military Review

Army of one war

306
Cheap oil is a factor of peace in Transcaucasia


The armed forces of Armenia and Azerbaijan were formed during the Karabakh conflict. Baku has lost not only almost all of the NKR, but also significant areas beyond that. For two decades, Azerbaijan has been preparing for a new war over Karabakh.

Since the Armenian side has the advantage of defending in well-fortified and equipped positions, the attacker needs to achieve significant superiority in strength in order to count on victory. Therefore, the country conducts massive purchases of military equipment in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Israel, Turkey, South Africa. In fact, from scratch created its own defense industry, which is engaged in the licensed assembly of armored vehicles and MLRS, the manufacture of small weapons.

On the ground


Ground forces in the main territory of Azerbaijan include four army corps: 1 (headquarters in Barda), 2 (Beylagan), 3 (Shamkir), 4 (Baku). They include 130, 161, 171, 172, 181, 190, 193, 701 (also 1), 702 (2), 703 (3), 706 (6-I), 707-I (7-I), 708-I (8-I), 712-I (12-I), 888-I motorized rifle, 191-I Mountain Rifle Brigade, 777-I regiment of special forces. In the enclave autonomous region of Nakhichevan, a special separate combined-arms army is deployed, consisting of three motorized rifle brigades.

In service there are 12 launchers TR "Point". Tank The fleet includes 100 of the latest Russian T-90S and 379 T-72. 98 obsolete T-55s were decommissioned, their further fate is unclear. Azerbaijan closely cooperates in the military sphere with Israel, so it is likely that the Azerbaijani T-55 will turn into heavy infantry fighting vehicles like the Israeli "Ahzarit". There are 88 BRDM-2, 20 BMD-1, 63 BMP-1 and 21 BRM-1, 186 BMP-2, 101 BMP-3. The number of armored personnel carriers and armored vehicles is approaching one thousand - 3 Ukrainian BTR-3Us (Azerbaijan has refused further purchases), 40 BTR-60, from 179 to 239 BTR-70, 33 BTR-80 and 70 BTR-80A, 11 BTR-D, 55 South African Matador and 85 Marauder (produced under license in Azerbaijan itself), at least 35 Turkish Cobras, 393 MTLB. More than half of all this equipment is listed not in the Armed Forces, but in the VV and border troops.

Artillery includes more 150 ACS - 25 2S9, 18 2S31, 66 2S1, 16 2S3, 18 2S19, 5 Israeli ATMOS-2000, 15 2S7. It is assumed to purchase 36 Turkish SAU T-155. Towed implements - 199 D-30, 36 M-46, 16 2А36, 24 D-20. Mortars - 400 2B14, 107 PM-38, 85 M-43, 10 Israeli CARDOM. Great attention is paid to the development of reactive artillery, without which successful offensive actions against powerful Armenian fortifications are impossible. There are 44 Soviet MLRS BM-21 and 20 Turkish T-122, 30 Turkish T-107 and 20 TR-300, 18 Russian TOC-1, 30 Smerch, 6 Israeli multi-caliber Linx. There are 10 Ukrainian ATGM Skif, 100 Russian Kornet, Soviet 150 Malyutka, 100 Fagot, 20 Konkurs, 10 Metis. Anti-tank guns: 72 D-44, 72 MT-12.

Military air defense includes 3 of the Buk-М1 and Belarusian Buk-MB (18 PU) divisions, by the Israeli Barak-8 (9 PU) division and the outdated Soviet Krug (27 PU), 150 ЗРР division short range (80 «Wasp», 8 Belarus-Ukrainian "Tetrahedron», 54 "Boom-10», 8 newest "Tor»), 300 MPADS "needle" and 18 «Bolt-3», 40 SoL-23-4 « Shilka.

In the sky


Air force include 843th mixed aviation regiment (VVB "Kala"), 416th fighter-bomber regiment (Kurdamir), 408th fighter (Zeynalabdin-Nasosny), 422th reconnaissance (Dallar), 115th training (Sangachaly) and transport (Zeynalabdin-Nasosny) squadrons. In service with up to 5 Su-24 bombers, 33 Su-25 attack aircraft (including 4 combat training Su-25UB) and up to 5 Su-17 (1 Su-17U), 15 MiG-29 fighters (2 UB) and up to 4 MiG-21 (1 more in storage), 32 MiG-25 interceptors. Only MiG-29 and Su-25 are relatively modern, 6 MiG-25PD interceptors and 4 MiG-25RB reconnaissance aircraft were modernized. The combat efficiency of the remaining aircraft is in question. Probably all of the Su-24, Su-17, MiG-21 and most of the MiG-25 were withdrawn from the Air Force with no chance of return. The Air Force includes 2 transport IL-76s (1 more in storage), up to 23 training L-39s, more than 50 combat (27 Mi-24s, 24 latest Mi-35Ms) and about 100 multi-purpose and transport helicopters (up to 82 Mi-17s) and Mi-8, 7 Mi-2, 6 Ka-27 and Ka-32).

Army of one war


Ground defense includes 2 ZNS S-300PMU 2 (16 PU), 1 ZRS-C NXXX (200 PU), to 4 S-C-13 divisions.

And the sea


Azerbaijani Navy consists of ships and boats inherited from the Soviet Caspian flotillacomplemented by turkish and american patrol boats. The largest is the extremely obsolete patrol guard (frigate) of project 159A. The entire fleet is very outdated, has no missile weapons, therefore it is currently the weakest in the Caspian Sea (more - “Museum on the High Seas”). Perhaps, the construction of 6 patrol ships under the Israeli project OPV-62, which will be equipped with universal Spike-NLOS missiles, will partially change the situation.

But in general, in terms of the quantity and quality of military equipment, the pace of its renewal, Azerbaijan is clearly striving to become one of the three strongest in the post-Soviet space. However, Baku’s plans in the field of military construction may change greatly due to falling oil prices.

From junior to senior


It is more than obvious that the Karabakh problem is not solved peacefully due to the mutually exclusive positions of the parties. At the same time, the current status quo suits everyone except Azerbaijan. It is extremely difficult to assume that he spends so much money on strengthening the Armed Forces for something other than changing the situation militarily. Moreover, the purchased equipment (T-90 tanks, MSTA self-propelled artillery system, Smerch MLRS and TOC-1А) is clearly intended to crack the Armenian defense in Karabakh. The question is at what point in Baku they decide that they have achieved decisive superiority, and to what extent this assessment will be adequate.

Russia in this case finds itself in a delicate situation: it was she who sold all the offensive weapons to Azerbaijan. It is difficult to assume that Moscow did not understand what this technique was intended for — against our closest ally in the CSTO. The situation is doubly difficult because long-term strange flirtations with Ankara (the main ally of Baku) ended in the expected failure and tough confrontation. In this regard, the new war between Armenia and Azerbaijan can very easily develop into an armed confrontation between the “senior comrades” - Russia and Turkey. Moreover, there remains a significant likelihood of their direct military confrontation due to Syria.

The peculiarity of the situation is that the “older” ones do not border on their “younger” allies, but they border on the “younger” opponents: Russia with Azerbaijan, Turkey and Armenia. And there is far from a zero probability that the domestic equipment sold by us to Baku will fight not only against our closest ally, but also against the Russian army.

If a war breaks out between Russia and Turkey, which will also drag in Armenia, a strong temptation will arise in Baku to strike at Karabakh from the north, taking advantage of the fact that the Armenian armed forces are fully engaged on the Turkish front. However, in this case, Azerbaijan itself has a chance to get a strike from the north, from Russia. Moreover, there is a significant likelihood that Iran will not only sympathize with the Russian-Armenian coalition, but also directly fight on its side. Then Azerbaijan will also get from the south, which will make for it zero chances not only for victory, but also for survival. Because of this, Baku will first monitor the situation at the front, and if it begins to take shape in favor of Turkey, refrain from participating in the war. However, in this case, Azerbaijan will be able to forget about Karabakh at least - for decades, at most - forever.
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  1. tundra
    tundra 19 March 2016 07: 06
    +5
    It is twisted there so that the devil breaks his leg.
    1. Altona
      Altona 19 March 2016 10: 50
      +2
      Quote: tundra
      It is twisted there so that the devil breaks his leg.

      ---------------------
      Sivkov and Khramchikhin, two geopolitics. Again, they play the soldiers, measure themselves with cannons, tanks and airplanes. In addition to official channels, there are unofficial ones for both Azerbaijan and Turkey. And not the fact that Ararat may be on the other side.
      1. hedgehog in the fog
        hedgehog in the fog 19 March 2016 12: 29
        +3
        all do not fight, the people for what should die ??? because of a bunch of oligarchs sorting out relationships?
    2. Megatron
      Megatron 19 March 2016 12: 43
      +1
      It is more than obvious that the Karabakh problem is not being resolved peacefully because of the mutually exclusive positions of the parties.


      Everything is decided. Azerbaijan, Armenia and Karabakh are part of the Russian Federation.
      And again there is nothing to divide, everyone lives peacefully and well. hi drinks
      1. 52
        52 19 March 2016 13: 46
        -3
        Everything is decided. Azerbaijan, Armenia and Karabakh are part of the Russian Federation. - again feed the parasites? Is it not enough of the past of the USSR? Maybe they should also take back sprat eaters?
        1. Megatron
          Megatron 19 March 2016 14: 16
          +6
          Well, Azerbaijan has never been a parasite, since the time of tsarism, oil was extracted there, in the vicinity of Baku, as far as I remember, there were the first wells in the world, then they scooped it with almost buckets.

          Everything needs the right approach. And if you dispose of funds like our medveputy no money is enough.
          1. 3MGK
            3MGK 19 March 2016 23: 49
            +3
            Yes it is. Only oil was produced mainly by Russian and Armenian engineers and industrialists. The share of the Russian population in Baku was, as I recall, about 33%, of the Armenian 30.
            1. Seal
              Seal 20 March 2016 14: 17
              -1
              From the memoirs of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich, grandson of Nicholas the First.
              "On December 6, 1902, I was promoted to Rear Admiral and, in my new position, took a seat on the Council of Ministers as the youngest member of the government in the history of the Empire. Articles inspired by Witte began to appear in the newspapers, with sharp criticism of my The rest of the members of the Council of Ministers, with the exception of the military and naval ministers, rallied around their omnipotent colleague and shared his hatred for the Grand Duke who had got into their midst.
              I managed to get our government hard to lift so that a new shipping line would be organized connecting our southern ports to the Persian Gulf and a significant subsidy from the government would be provided to four Russian shipping societies, which began to compete successfully with the Germans and the British.
              This first victory of mine gave me courage ...

              Then he goes on to describe his struggle against the sale of oil lands to private hands at a cheap price, in which he was defeated.
              "Most of the ministers were against me. Oil-bearing lands were sold for a pittance to enterprising Armenians. Anyone who knows the pre-war value of the enterprises of the" Armenian trust "in Baku will understand what enormous sums were lost for the Russian state treasury irrevocably


              Maybe someone knows the details?
          2. aws4
            aws4 20 March 2016 01: 25
            +2
            Yes, only during the Soviet Union there were only 2 non-reporting republics, this is the RSFSR and Belarus can still be attributed to Ukraine, but because of the large number of defense plants, it also could not be self-sufficient, so it turns out three with Ukraine .... but Azerbaijan with all its oil and gas production and land, which was beautiful compared to the same Armenia, could not develop itself and required constant injections from the center .... in fact, what prevents them from becoming the richest country in the post-Soviet space if they have a lot of oil and gas ????? and why, with all this, they worked in abundance both in Russia and work as they went to Russia and go ???))))))))))))))))))))))) turn on the brain. ... look at the needs, oil production, stocks and oil prices at different times and you will understand that already in the USSR, oil production in the Caucasus was NOT significant as under Tsarist Russia ... and since the 60s, the proceeds from it were not even enough for self-sufficiency Azerbaijan SSR
            1. Megatron
              Megatron 20 March 2016 12: 47
              +3
              Azerbaijan, with all its oil and gas production and excellent land compared to the same Armenia, could not develop itself and required constant injections from the center.

              Nevertheless, the USSR can be said to have won the war on Baku oil, it was not in vain that the fascists were so frantically torn there.

              in fact, what now prevents them from becoming the richest country in the post-Soviet space if they have a sea of ​​oil and gas ????? and why, with all this, in abundance did they both work in Russia and work as they went to Russia and go ???

              About the same thing that constantly bothers us, but we have not only oil and gas, but also the entire periodic table, forest, somewhere around 40% of the world's arable land .... you can list until the evening.

              A very, very harmful tale about donor regions.

              I agree, so much can be agreed on, in Russia there are also few donor regions.
              1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Seal
              Seal 20 March 2016 12: 47
              +4
              Here, as they say, bare numbers.
              1. Bakht
                Bakht 20 March 2016 12: 54
                0
                Thanks for the interesting information ... But immediately questions arise. I take what I know.
                Production in Azerbaijan is 8 evergreens per year. This makes even with the 7 millionth population as much as 56 billion. And consumption is 16 thousand. That makes 102 billion. There have never been such figures in the budget of Azerbaijan.

                Good statistics. That's where to add it - I can’t imagine. Well, as always, detail is needed. And then on a joke

                There are two generals American and ours
                Russian boasts:
                - Our soldier receives 2000 calories per day!
                “So what, and our malt receives 4000 calories a day,” the American answers.
                - You lie the NATO face, the soldier cannot eat two bags of swede a day !!!
                1. Seal
                  Seal 20 March 2016 14: 08
                  -1
                  Thanks for the interesting information ... But immediately questions arise. I take what I know

                  Maybe look here.
                  http://historylib.minfin.ru/items/show/98
                  1. Bakht
                    Bakht 20 March 2016 14: 30
                    +3
                    Thanks for the link. But .... There are 198 pages in small print. The figures are for 1981-1985. And in rubles. And the official rate of 67 cents per dollar. Now it’s hard to say exactly how much this amounts to.

                    If you think it is necessary, then you can look and try to think. But honestly, this is hellish work.

                    I question the current statistics. I will explain why. In the USSR, inaccurate statistics were drawn to a criminal offense. Therefore, the lies were much less. We take the current situation. The preamble of all rating agencies says that they are NOT RESPONSIBLE for the figures given. I am not kidding. They determine the creditworthiness of states and organizations, but are not liable. This leads to such wild distortions that Lehman Brothers received the highest rating just before default. Or MEA lost 1 million barrels per day. Irresponsibility breeds hack. Therefore, to believe the current statistics is very, very fraught with sideways.

                    No one is sinless. But I believe the Soviet data more. Last done in Azerbaijan. I do not want to spread, but just a couple of days ago I was in full swing, from the digital, which was provided by very, very respectable people. Complete nonsense. But you have to accept, because there are simply no others.
                2. Seal
                  Seal 20 March 2016 14: 20
                  -1
                  And you, judging by everything, are an Azerbaijani and possibly even a Bakuer - will you enlighten what the Grand Duke meant?

                  From the memoirs of Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich, grandson of Nicholas the First.
                  "On December 6, 1902, I was promoted to Rear Admiral and, in my new position, took a seat on the Council of Ministers as the youngest member of the government in the history of the Empire. Articles inspired by Witte began to appear in the newspapers, with sharp criticism of my The rest of the members of the Council of Ministers, with the exception of the military and naval ministers, rallied around their omnipotent colleague and shared his hatred for the Grand Duke who had got into their midst.
                  I managed to get our government hard to lift so that a new shipping line would be organized connecting our southern ports to the Persian Gulf and a significant subsidy from the government would be provided to four Russian shipping societies, which began to compete successfully with the Germans and the British.
                  This first victory of mine gave me courage ...

                  And then he goes on to describe his struggle against the cheap sale of oil lands to private hands, in which he was defeated.
                  "Most of the ministers were against me. Oil-bearing lands were sold for a pittance to enterprising Armenians. Anyone who knows the pre-war value of the enterprises of the" Armenian trust "in Baku will understand what enormous sums were lost for the Russian state treasury irrevocably
                  1. Bakht
                    Bakht 20 March 2016 14: 35
                    +3
                    We recently had a conversation about "documents". I don't know what this is about. I am not a know-it-all and cannot grasp the immensity. Moreover, history is not my profession, but a hobby. Of course, I devote a significant part of my time to her.

                    Do you mean shipping lines or land sales? Without any reference, I can say that many were engaged in oil in Baku. Including Armenians. There were both Nobels and Azerbaijanis. It seems that there were no Russian oil producers. Although the Russians worked as engineers and even in high positions. But in Baku, the names of Azerbaijani, Armenian oil producers and Nobels are well-known.
                    1. Seal
                      Seal 20 March 2016 17: 53
                      0
                      I mean selling oil lands to private hands for nothing. What was there in Baku for the mafia, the resource of which even the Grand Duke of the Empire, the grandson of the Emperor Nicholas the First, could not overcome.
                      1. Bakht
                        Bakht 20 March 2016 18: 19
                        +1
                        I can search. But I read that many lands were inherited. Lucky oil barons bought some sites. Surely there was a sale of state lands. At that time, geological exploration, as we now understand it, was not even in its infancy. Everyone grabbed the ground. Someone is lucky, someone is not. But I won’t be able to say so in detail. There are some legends about the most famous oil producers. To be honest, I was not very interested in this topic.
                      2. Bakht
                        Bakht 20 March 2016 18: 26
                        +1
                        Unfortunately, M. Suleimanov's book "The Days Past" has disappeared. This is not a document in the literal sense of the word. Memories, legends, stories. But the idea of ​​pre-revolutionary Baku is excellent. From the very first lines, a case is described of how the governor Vorontsov-Dashkov lost the case in court for a plot of land on which oil was later found.

                        http://royallib.com/read/suleymanov_manaf/dni_minuvshie_istoricheskie_ocherki.ht
                        ml # 0
              2. hardrokc
                hardrokc 20 March 2016 13: 52
                +2
                Quote: Seal
                Here, as they say, bare numbers.

                "Naked Figures" of the newspaper Soviet Russia for 1992. could say whatever they wanted. Their value is about the same as the inscription on the fence.
                Especially "touches" the consumption per capita in the RSFSR, about $ 1000 a month. Today it is about 1680 modern dollars a month. Or about 118 thousand. modern rubles per person per month... It’s not even funny. It’s not even funny at all. What, then, in the RSFSR, did they manage to consume in such quantities? Almost no cars were bought. Summer cottages too. Did the blue chickens really cost that much? Or the bones from the "soup set"?
                By the way, Turkey. As if almost nothing was produced in the USSR. And today, according to Credit Suisse, he lives richer than anyone. Paradox.
                1. Bakht
                  Bakht 20 March 2016 13: 58
                  +3
                  This post talks about the level of your perceptions. I agree that tsifiri are strange. But consumption is not just about chickens and cars. Let's say kindergarten or school. Or a free circle at the Pioneer House. Or institute. Or a ticket to the sanatorium. Or paid sick leave. Or penicillin in a pharmacy for 3 kopecks. A lot of things can be found.
                  1. hardrokc
                    hardrokc 20 March 2016 14: 14
                    -1
                    Quote: Bakht
                    Let's say kindergarten or school.

                    And what, kindergartens have gone somewhere? Not at all. And there is no need to tell me about their "terrible price". And about the school too.
                    Quote: Bakht
                    Or a free circle at the Pioneer House

                    And now there are plenty of them. There are also paid ones. Choose for every taste.
                    In addition, all this, such trifles that they are simply not worth mentioning.
                    Quote: Bakht
                    Or institute. Or a ticket to the sanatorium. Or paid sick leave. Or penicillin in a pharmacy for 3 kopecks. A lot of things can be found.

                    No matter how much you scrape on the bottom of the barrel, you cannot scrape together 118 thousand modern rubles per person per month (more than 1,4 million per year). Well, you won't succeed. Therefore, the figures of Soviet Russia, and even in 1992, are quite the expected "filkina letter". Bullshit, to put it simply.
                    1. Bakht
                      Bakht 20 March 2016 14: 37
                      +2
                      These warheads were a significant part of the subsidies. Do you want more suseki? 5 cents on the bus. New York is more expensive. Much more expensive. These are all DOTATIONS in people. Feudalism is a little like.

                      Stay with your WRONG opinion.
                      1. hardrokc
                        hardrokc 20 March 2016 15: 38
                        -3
                        Quote: Bakht
                        These are all DOTATIONS in people. Feudalism is a little like.

                        I want to upset you. All these "subsidies" were first taken away from these very people. And then the taken away PARTLY was returned in the form of "subsidies". And the good wizard did not come in a blue helicopter. And he didn't scatter subsidies.
                        Quote: Bakht
                        5 cents on the bus. New York is more expensive. Much more expensive.

                        What about New York? 5 kopecks in 1990, this is about 10 ruy in 1915. Directions are now more expensive. But how many people were there in a month? Funny money.
                        By the way, electricity in the USSR cost a lot of money. 8 rubles per kW * h for modern rubles. 40 modern rubles cost 1 kg of a loaf of bread. A suit of the local factory "Kosorukaya seamsta" (I personally bought it in a store) cost almost 38 thousand modern rubles. Good jeans from speculators (there were no good ones in the store) cost 40 thousand modern rubles. Gasoline AI-93 cost about 80 modern rubles per liter. Soviet cigarettes with the sawdust filter cost 60-140 modern rubles per pack.
                        So, no la-la about "subsidies".
                        Quote: Bakht
                        Stay with your WRONG opinion.

                        Agreed
                      2. Bakht
                        Bakht 20 March 2016 15: 44
                        +4
                        Stop. The argument is pointless because you have a strange way of reducing everything to modern numbers. This is ABSOLUTELY incorrect. Since childhood, I paid taxes to the savings bank. I was so taught. All utilities we have (family of 4 people) fit into 10-12 rubles. I remember that very well. At the salary of father and mother, it was just a penny. Gasoline also cost a penny. My brother bought Izh-Moskvich on credit (!) And therefore I know that he never complained about gas prices. And he was a simple engineer.

                        I'm serious. This is not an argument. This is some kind of conversation between the blind and the deaf. I tell you that life was much easier then. I bought jeans from speculators 1 time for 200 rubles. But by that time I could afford it.

                        So the donations were not "la-la". A very real and tangible help. But you can't prove it.
                      3. hardrokc
                        hardrokc 20 March 2016 15: 57
                        0
                        Quote: Bakht
                        Since childhood, I paid taxes to the savings bank. I was so taught

                        You could not do this. The taxes withheld from you at the place of issue of money.
                        Quote: Bakht
                        fit into 10-12 rubles. I remember that very well. When the salaries of father and mother were exactly a penny

                        In fact, the average salary in the late USSR was 180 rubles. per month. Therefore, 12 rubles was not a penny at all.
                        Quote: Bakht
                        Gasoline also cost a penny

                        I already brought you how much it cost at gas stations. You could buy stolen cheaper, but A-76.
                        Quote: Bakht
                        and therefore I know that he never complained about gas prices

                        Why complain? There was no choice anyway.
                        Quote: Bakht
                        I bought jeans from speculators 1 time for 200 rubles.

                        I wrote to you about 40 thousand modern rubles. This is approximately 200 of those rubles. Where have you seen jeans today for 40 thousand. rubles?
                        Quote: Bakht
                        But you can’t prove it.

                        Of course, there were some subsidies. But you must take into account the average salary. 180 of those rubles, which is approximately 36 thousand modern rubles. And this is the average salary, there were plenty of people who received 24-28 thousand per month. In addition, remove at least 13% from them; under the USSR, salaries were called BEFORE taxes were paid.
                      4. Bakht
                        Bakht 20 March 2016 16: 29
                        +1
                        You write again that I am telling a lie ....

                        The rent, gas, everything was paid at the place of residence. Income tax is another 13%. Now we have 35% with a high salary.
                        No stolen gasoline. And what do you always suspect me of some fraud? Jeans for 40 rubles. I don’t know ... I didn’t buy it in Russia. But in the States I saw 000 dollars. I bought for 400 dollars myself. 40 bucks to pay for pants even in the States seemed to me wastefulness.

                        Do not tell me about before and after .... A cleaning lady received 80 rubles. And nothing was removed from her. A ticket for a Baku-Moscow plane cost 40 rubles. You do not want to understand that comparing the prices of that time is now unproductive. Transfer 30 kopecks for bread for today and see all the meaninglessness.

                        Take 100 Soviet rubles and buy 300 loaves of bread, or 50 kg of meat, or 25 kg of oil. And translate these same products into modern prices. I do not know Russian prices. And then you will find out how much it cost 100 wooden rubles in the current calculation. In Azerbaijan, I can say that 50 kg of meat will cost $ 250. For bread the same $ 100, for butter about 200 bucks. According to my calculations, parity is obtained. Plus or minus a tram stop.

                        These are all purely material things. But in theory. So you know what in the current conditions there is a deficit? Moreover, the total deficit. I once caught up on such comparisons a couple of months ago. I wrote and now I can repeat that we live in conditions of total deficit. But you won’t believe me. :-)
                      5. hardrokc
                        hardrokc 20 March 2016 16: 57
                        +1
                        Quote: Bakht
                        You write again that I am telling a lie ....

                        You leave me no choice. Because write that after the institute they received 300 rubles / month (all received 110-120 rubles). And after 3 years, it’s already 600 rubles (as a union minister or doctor of sciences, professor of the capital’s university). And this is with an average salary in the country of 180 rubles / month.
                        Quote: Bakht
                        A cleaning lady received 80 rubles. And they didn’t take anything off her

                        And I'm about the same. And you somehow instantly turned out 300, and then 600. Fiction.
                        Quote: Bakht
                        A ticket for a Baku-Moscow plane cost 40 rubles.

                        8000 modern rubles. Now it costs the same.
                        Quote: Bakht
                        Transfer 30 kopecks for bread for today and see all the meaninglessness.

                        Why 30 kopecks? 1 kg. a loaf was worth 20 kopecks (were different). 20 kopecks is about 40 modern rubles. Roughly speaking, it costs the same.
                        Even now you can find cheaper.
                        Quote: Bakht
                        Take 100 Soviet rubles and buy 300 loaves of bread, or 50 kg of meat, or 25 kg of oil.

                        Will you walk with your bare ass? And under its own power?
                        Quote: Bakht
                        So you know what in the current conditions there is a deficit? Moreover, the total deficit. I once caught up on such comparisons a couple of months ago. I wrote and now I can repeat that we live in conditions of total deficit.

                        I believe it. Some infantile persons are sorely lacking Brezhnev. Deficit. And some, Dzhugashvili. Also deficit. And there are still many who are missing someone or something.
                      6. Bakht
                        Bakht 20 March 2016 17: 03
                        0
                        I ask about today and purely economic fact. What is now in short supply. Moreover, the total deficit. Do not need Brezhnev and Stalin. What goods are in short supply now?
                    2. atalef
                      atalef 20 March 2016 17: 23
                      0
                      Quote: Bakht
                      Do not tell me about before and after .... A cleaning lady received 80 rubles. And they didn’t take anything off her

                      Filmed income and childlessness (if there were no children)
                    3. Bakht
                      Bakht 20 March 2016 17: 33
                      0
                      I didn’t get that much. But I remember that they did not shoot. Childlessness seems to have been filmed. But that the cleaning lady did not have children? ... :-)

                      Addition. Looked on the Internet

                      The maximum tax rate on wages of workers and employees is 13% (for wages over 100 rubles per month). Significant benefits are established for certain categories of income tax payers. Low-paid workers are exempted from paying tax (non-taxable Income tax minimum wage of workers and employees is 60 rubles, for certain areas - 70 rubles per month)
                2. atalef
                  atalef 20 March 2016 17: 22
                  0
                  Quote: hardrokc
                  In fact, the average salary in the late USSR was 180 rubles. per month. Therefore, 12 rubles was not a penny at all.

                  180? generally less, but for 12 rubles, I lived in a hostel for a week
                  Quote: hardrokc
                  I wrote to you about 40 thousand modern rubles. This is about 200 rubles

                  I agree, normal jeans cost 1-1.3 monthly engineer salaries.

                  Quote: hardrokc
                  under the USSR, salaries were called BEFORE taxes

                  belay
    3. Seal
      Seal 20 March 2016 17: 49
      0
      By the way, Turkey. As if almost nothing was produced in the USSR
      Why didn’t she produce anything?
      TURKMENISTAN Soviet Socialist Republic (Turkmenistan) is located in the south-west. Central Asia. It borders on the south with Iran and Afghanistan. In the west it is washed by the Caspian Sea.
      Area 488,1 thousand km2.
      The population of 2581 thousand people. (January 1, 1976).
      The ethnic composition (according to the census of 1970, thousand people) is Turkmens 1417, Russians 313, Uzbeks 179, Kazakhs 69, Tatars 36, Ukrainians 35, Armenians 23, etc.
      The average population density is 5,3 people. per 1 km2 (January 1, 1976) - the lowest among the Union republics.
      In the national economy of the USSR, the Turkmen SSR is distinguished by the oil, gas, chemical industry, and carpet production. agriculture specializes in the production of cotton, karakul smushki, raw silk. Turkmenistan has developed economic ties with all union republics. In 1975, industrial output exceeded the 1940 level by 10 times, and the 1913 level by 70 times.
      The most important power station is Mary State District Power Plant. Particularly fast growing oil (deposits of Leninskoye, Barsa-Gelmes, etc.) and gas (the most important deposits are Shatlyk, Naip, Achak) industry. The chemical industry is represented by the extraction of sodium sulfate (Kara-Bogaz-Gol Bay), iodine, bromine, sulfur, production of mineral fertilizers, sulfuric acid, etc. Light and food industries play a significant role. Engineering is developing.
      Gross agricultural production in 1975 compared with 1940 increased by 4 times. Agricultural land in 1975 amounted to 30,4 million hectares (62,3% of the total territory), including arable land - 0,8 million hectares, hayfields - 0,01 million hectares and pastures - 29,3 million hectares. In 1975, the area of ​​irrigated land reached 819 thousand hectares. Of great importance in the development of the economy of the republic and especially agriculture is the Karakum Canal named after V.I. Lenin. Agriculture provides over 71% of the value of gross agricultural output (1975). Leading agricultural sector - cotton growing. The area of ​​fruit plantations is 20 thousand hectares in 1975 (3 thousand hectares in 1940), vineyards - 11 thousand hectares (4 thousand hectares in 1940). Gross harvest of fruits and berries is 38 thousand tons in 1975 (5 thousand tons in 1940), grapes - 63 thousand tons (16 thousand tons in 1940). In livestock farming, the main place belongs to karakul breeding. Great work is underway to irrigate and improve desert pastures; as of November 1, 1975, 63,4% of all pasture land was flooded. Sericulture is developed. In 1975, 3928 tons of cocoons were harvested (1631 tons in 1940).

      I don’t know if they still pick cotton there or not, but the gas and oil industries with such a small population are quite enough for the prosperity of Turkmenistan. So, there are no paradoxes.
      1. hardrokc
        hardrokc 20 March 2016 18: 09
        +1
        Quote: Seal
        Why didn’t she produce anything?

        No, I refute the data of the newspaper Soviet Russia quoted by you. Therefore, I write "as it were".
        Quote: Seal
        I don’t know if they still pick cotton there or not, but the gas and oil industries with such a small population are quite enough for the prosperity of Turkmenistan. So, there are no paradoxes.

        And I think so. But what about the data from the newspaper Soviet Russia for 1992?
    4. Seal
      Seal 20 March 2016 18: 32
      0
      The bare figures of the newspaper Soviet Russia for 1992 could say anything.

      In any case, this is better than nothing at all. This is at least some texture that can be discussed. And if there is no texture at all - then what to discuss? The volume of screams on the topic of whether some republic was subsidized or not? Like, who shouts louder - is he right? It is only among savages in disputes that the winner is the one who shouts louder than others that it was he who had the greatest number of sexual contacts with the mothers of opponents.

      So you can here
      http://historylib.minfin.ru/items/show/98
      search hi
  2. Megatron
    Megatron 20 March 2016 14: 09
    +2
    Again some heresy.
    1. Bakht
      Bakht 20 March 2016 14: 14
      0
      Or the problem is that people lived at that time. And for some reason, they still remember the old prices. And do not forget how to think.

      Conversation in the clinic
      - I need an ear-eye doctor
      - There is no such doctor. There are ear-throat-nose and optometrist
      - No. I need an ear-eye. Because I do not see what I hear!

      But the poster is good. With your permission, I will download it to my memory. I will scare modern students that Lenin used the Internet. :-)
  • 3MGK
    3MGK 19 March 2016 23: 50
    0
    Industry was developed in Armenia and we were never a parasite.
    1. aws4
      aws4 20 March 2016 01: 27
      +3
      everywhere there was developed industry in all republics but Armenia was also subsidized
    2. Seal
      Seal 20 March 2016 12: 48
      0
      And you, please, sign in receipt
  • eugraphus
    eugraphus 20 March 2016 03: 17
    +1
    In the USSR there were only two non-subsidized republics - the RSFSR and Azerbaijan. Now the situation has changed for everyone. Anyone who thought that subsidies from the center under the USSR and loans from the IMF and other capitalists were one and the same thing were deeply mistaken. Got loans, actually lost sovereignty, squandered the remnants of the Soviet legacy. In my opinion, in the post-Soviet space, things have not gone yet, more or less things have gone from Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Russia. Well, maybe Belarus and Turkmenistan, but I doubt something for them.
    So Azerbaijan in alliance with Russia is far from the worst option.
    1. aws4
      aws4 20 March 2016 05: 33
      +2
      lying very nice .... why are you doing this ???
    2. aws4
      aws4 20 March 2016 05: 35
      +2
      although that’s not understandable here .... Azerbaijani))))))))))))))))))))))))
    3. Victor jnnjdfy
      Victor jnnjdfy 20 March 2016 11: 02
      +2
      In the USSR there were donor republics: the RSFSR, the BSSR and the Kazakh SSR (the latter was not always a donor). The remaining republics were subsidized.

      The highest GDP per capita was in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, and then in the RSFSR. But the small and "proud" Baltic states ate much more than they produced.
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 20 March 2016 11: 19
        +2
        A very, very harmful tale about donor regions. There are no donors in a single organism. All are needed. The brain does not work separately from the heart, legs do not walk if there is no stomach. And if an abscess occurs in a small appendix, then the body dies. Even a physically developed athlete can die of inflammation.

        I know such a story about Azerbaijan. Real, because I was personally acquainted with the person who offered it. Of the 400 million tons of oil produced in the USSR, Azerbaijan has produced 14 million in recent years. There was an offer in the USSR State Plan to withdraw from Azerbaijan a plan for oil production. The entire volume of Azerbaijani oil could compensate for Tyumen. And in Azerbaijan, on the basis of the oil industry, to create experimental production and run in new production methods. Make Baku the country's oil academy.
        The offer was rejected. For many reasons. One of them is the quality of the oil produced. None of the Kazakh, Tyumen and Bashkir oil could be compared in quality with the Baku oil. In such cases, they say "the spool is small, but expensive."

        Well, in fact: after 25 years of independence, NONE of the republic (including the Russian Federation) did not reach self-sufficiency. This is even impossible in principle.
        1. hardrokc
          hardrokc 20 March 2016 11: 38
          +1
          Quote: Bakht
          Well, in fact: after 25 years of independence, NONE of the republic (including the Russian Federation) did not reach self-sufficiency.

          What kind of miracle is this, "self-sufficiency"? Some kind of new word in economic science.
          Quote: Bakht
          A very, very harmful tale about donor regions. There are no donors in a single organism. All are needed.

          It has been 25 years since there is no "single organism". And some of his "organs" somehow live. Some even live well and get rich. Maybe the concept of "a single organism" in relation to public education is wrong?
          1. Bakht
            Bakht 20 March 2016 12: 03
            +2
            Don't like "self-sufficiency", take the economic term "autarchy".

            The fact of the matter is that "somehow they live." And what about "not bad" .... And who lives "not bad"? I will not even write about some economic miracles. Just take a close look at the monitor and tell me what are we discussing? Each topic has problems. In each topic - the influence of the United States (generally the West) on politics and economy is not that of Azerbaijan or Ukraine. But the impact on the politics and economy of Russia. If you think that the Russian Federation wanted to spit on the opinion of the West, then you are strongly and strongly mistaken. You cannot even sell your own commodity (oil) at your own price. Whichever one is appointed - that one will receive.

            I consider "a single organism" to be a very good definition for the state. If there is better, then I am not proud and will accept it with pleasure. If you look closely at the attempts at "import substitution", you will see that even such a colossus among the CIS as the Russian Federation is very vulnerable. Now a roasted rooster has pecked and something spun. But this is now. And for all 25 years, the role of a raw material appendage has been de facto. This is not me saying, all economists of any school in the Russian Federation say this. From Glazyev to Gref.
            1. hardrokc
              hardrokc 20 March 2016 13: 10
              -1
              Quote: Bakht
              Don't like "self-sufficiency", take the economic term "autarchy".

              Then you first decide what you are writing about. Personally, I still didn’t understand what you had in mind in terms that were completely incoherent.
              Quote: Bakht
              And what about "not bad" .... And who lives "not bad"?

              I agree, "not bad" is a loose concept.
              To make it clearer. To the levels of Europe and North. Nobody can match America (see the "momentary" report of Credit Suisse). Likewise, no one reaches the world average.
              Turkmenistan and Estonia are pulled to the level of the countries of the Asia-Pacific region.
              Latvia, Lithuania, Georgia and Azerbaijan are pulled to the level of Latin American countries.
              Russia, it is not clear. Either at the level of poor Latin American or rich African countries.
              The rest are drawn only to the level of African countries. Someone, poor, someone richer.
              Say "poor"? How to say. The USSR never rose above African countries in terms of living standards. Therefore, the current position in this rating of Russia is a clear progress. And those who are higher than her in the rating are still successful.
              As for those who are lower in the ranking, many of them did not find anything and did not lose anything. Unless Ukrainians, Belarusians, Tajiks and Moldavians most likely lost. It is difficult to judge here; real Soviet statistics do not exist.
              Quote: Bakht
              then you will see that even such a colossus among the CIS,

              Everything in the world is relative. The same mythical CIS, this is nothing more than an inconspicuous trifle on economic world map.
              Quote: Bakht
              And all 25 years the role of a raw materials appendage was secured de facto.

              I want to surprise you, this role has always been assigned to Russia. That's generally always, all the years of its existence. As for the role of the appendage in terms of hydrocarbons, this role was assigned to the USSR in 1961 at the XXII Congress of the CPSU. It was then that a program was adopted to increase oil production by 4,75 times, and gas by 14,8 times. The program was planned to be fully operational by 1980. It was with its launch that Khrushchev linked "the building of communism in the USSR."
              And he was surprisingly right. 1974 to 1986 The USSR was swimming in petrodollars. I littered with money left and right. And then "happiness" collapsed along with oil prices. And the "single organism" followed. So, you know what "Soviet-style communism" looks like.
              Want to plunge into it again? Will not work. There is no money for "Soviet-style communism". Therefore, one can only plunge into "Soviet-style socialism" (I would like to point out separately, not even "developed Soviet-style socialism," namely, "Soviet-style socialism"). And this is the GULAG with its slave labor, executions of "enemies", etc. etc. And periodic hunger. I would not recommend it. You may not be on a tower with a machine gun, but inside the zone, with a shovel.
              1. Bakht
                Bakht 20 March 2016 13: 36
                +1
                I am determined. It was originally about donor republics. I think this concept is incorrect. I wrote about this. Bad term. Each district produces something of its own. It is not necessary to have the entire lineup. So you can write any region in the donor. Hence the comparison with the body.

                Relative well-being is an equally obscure term. You compare just on the basis of monetarist concepts. But Soviet civilization was not monetarist. And to compare it with capitalist positions is incorrect. It has never been market-oriented and successfully competed precisely in the sphere of providing the basic needs of the entire mass of the population. I already wrote about statistics in another post.

                I will not argue about the CIS. Of course, in monetarist realities - this is a trifle that does not deserve attention.

                Your last paragraph does not surprise me anymore. I heard these tales for a long time. All this is precisely propaganda. And not the most truthful. Especially the passage about the Gulag. You are not the first to claim that in the USSR there was "slave labor in the Gulag." The USSR with its industry, science, and other achievements was not built in the GULAG. It was built by normal labor. The achievements of Stalinist socialism (not communism) are so impressive that no one can compete with it. But through the efforts of the liberal press, few people know about this. I can tell you a trifle. The rationing system after the war was abolished in the USSR earlier than in Great Britain. Equality before the law for all citizens without exception in the USSR was achieved earlier than in the United States. With that, in the USSR it was necessary to restore fifteen hundred destroyed settlements. In the absence of external borrowing. And someone else will tell me about inefficiency? Yes, it was a super efficient economy. And there was enough money for everything. Not dollars, but money.

                Always remember that there was no market economy in the USSR. And it is necessary to approach the assessment of merits with this FACT in mind. Profit was not the main goal. Book of Kara-Murza "Soviet Civilization" 2 volumes.

                PS is a necessary addition. What is statistics. In the USSR, I received 300 rubles and I had enough for everything. In the post-Soviet era, I received $ 2. It was also enough. But under the USSR, my life was easier. This is my subjective opinion. That's all the statistics.
                1. hardrokc
                  hardrokc 20 March 2016 15: 11
                  0
                  You compare just on the basis of monetarist concepts.

                  I’ll tell you more, all of them. The essence of man is just that.
                  And Soviet civilization

                  There was no such, do not fantasize.
                  She has never been market

                  Of course. The "Stalinist" USSR functioned on the basis of slave-holding TAR, "developed socialism" on the basis of feudal TAR. Where do market relations come from? They still had to grow up to them.
                  and successfully competed just in the sphere of providing the basic needs of the entire population

                  Who are you telling this to? I myself felt this "provision". Do not want anymore.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  that in the USSR there was "slave labor in the Gulag"

                  Read the reports of the Gulag itself on the development of products within it. LARGE slaveholding enterprise.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  The achievements of Stalinist socialism (not communism) are so impressive that no one can compete with it.

                  Are you in yourself? Is that poverty you call "impressive successes"? This does not take into account the fact that a significant part of the population was not destitute, they were simply slaves. She worked for soldering gruel and a place on the bunk.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  The card system after the war was canceled in the USSR earlier than in Great Britain.

                  This is because the USSR could not provide the normal norms for the distribution of products, the supply of products from the USA after the Victory ended. And I didn’t want to be "blockaded" for propaganda purposes. The population was left to fend for themselves, because there was no guaranteed distribution. To be proud of this sin, it ended in post-war famine.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  Yes, it was a super-efficient economy.

                  Everything was. Only there was nothing to eat. There was nothing to pull on the ass. You are a big dreamer.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  Always remember that in the USSR there was no market economy

                  In ALL slave and feudal states from ancient history, THERE WAS NO MARKET ECONOMY. Descendants of the inhabitants of those states should be proud of this?
                  There was nothing unique in the USSR. Through the efforts of the Bolshevik renegades (Stalinists), he simply lingered on his development. But delays in development are not accepted.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  In the USSR I received 300 rubles

                  Do not fantasize. Not everyone got that much.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  But under the USSR, it was easier for me

                  Of course. Before you there was no choice where to spend them. There were no goods and services. And there is no choice, no problem.
                  Plus, 300 rubles in 1990, that's about 60 thousand ($ 875) now. So don't be fancy about "$ 2000".
                2. Bakht
                  Bakht 20 March 2016 15: 28
                  +1
                  You don't know anything about socialism. It happens. Soviet civilization is not my term but Kara-Murza S.G. Professor, author of works on the history of the USSR. I think he knows more about us in the subject. If you do not want to know more, then there’s nothing to talk about.

                  Well, you still believe in what you want to believe. But not the facts. I was born and raised in the USSR. And he was educated in the USSR. Correctly. And in the west, people received education. But not everyone was able to go from a worker to a professor. Or from an orphanage to the president. Anyway.

                  I'm just about myself. Do not insult me ​​that I fantasize. I could be wrong but I never lied. I received 300 rubles as a young specialist. And he lived in a dormitory for young professionals for 1 ruble per month. Three years later, I received 500 rubles. With prizes of almost 600. And I received 2 thousand bucks after socialism. Rather, he started at $ 100 a month, and ten years later he had 5000 evergreens. So 2000 is not a myth but an average assessment of my work. Those who did not wipe their pants in the offices could earn. And then and now.

                  Which I wish to everyone.
                3. hardrokc
                  hardrokc 20 March 2016 16: 15
                  +1
                  Quote: Bakht
                  Soviet civilization is not my term but Kara-Murza S.G. Professor, author of works on the history of the USSR.

                  So what? Why should I listen to the terms of different Moors? does he know what he invented for himself there?
                  Quote: Bakht
                  I think he knows more about us in the subject.

                  Not sure at all. I'm just in the subject of what a "professor" is. And you probably didn't.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  But not everyone was able to go from a worker to a professor. Or from an orphanage to the president.

                  Why are you doing this? To the rain?
                  By the way, if we're talking about this. It is VERY BAD when "rags to riches" really is. It doesn't have to be that way. In any normal country there is a national elite for this. In Russia, this elite was purposefully slaughtered by the Bolsheviks. From this and all her subsequent troubles.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  I received 300 rubles as a young specialist.

                  You are fantasizing. After graduation, young specialists received 110-120 rubles a month. Even lieutenants (there were crazy salaries in the army) after schools received 200 rubles a month. I very well remember these numbers.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  Three years later, I received 500 rubles.

                  400-450 rubles per month received the republican minister and doctor of sciences, professor at the republican university. 500-600 rubles received the Union Minister and Doctor of Sciences, professor at the Union University. Civilians. In the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Moscow Region there were other salaries. Therefore, your 500 rubles in 3 years, this is fantasy.
                  Although, who knows. Maybe you worked in some semi-criminal sharashka. You know better.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  With premiums of nearly 600.

                  Alles Kaput. I would be in your place then I would have drawn a toe from behind.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  and ten years later he had 5000 evergreens.

                  Congratulations to you. Giant salary for a third world country. I applaud while standing.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  Those who did not wipe their pants in the offices could earn. And then and now.

                  Now it can. Then it was difficult. The Criminal Code treated such earnings extremely negatively.
                4. Bakht
                  Bakht 20 March 2016 16: 47
                  0
                  You do not know anything.

                  We open the box. Personal example. After graduation, a young specialist geophysicist asks for Sakhalin. There are no vacancies and I am going to Turkmenistan. Barsa-Helmes area near Nebit-Dag. Translated as "you will not come back". The salary of an engineer is 140 rubles. The regional coefficient is 60%. More than 200 tugriks are already doing this. Engineers received a quarterly bonus of 60%. That's another 80 rubles a month. So I got about 300 from the first day. Well, maybe 250. Three years later I transferred to a helicopter party. Medical Plaque 80 hours a month. No more. Every hour of flight is 3 rubles. This is an additional 240 rubles. And the salary and the ratio. And prizes. Minuses? I planted my hearing there from noise and vibration. I have flown almost 8 hours on the Mi-2000. And two falls from a height of 600 meters. Lucky. They were good flyers. First time sat down on autorotation. The second time the island turned up over the sea. The flyers joked that "the helicopter does not fall. It descends quickly." So 600 rubles is not a fantasy, but a harsh reality. And there was no need to ascribe a zero.

                  Well, then the collapse of the Union and the import campaign. The fact that I was able to work as a senior shift around the world and I had foreigners subordinate probably means something. Do you know the salary of a freelancer in the marine geophysical party? Google it. Precipitate. I worked a month - you can lie on the couch for a year. Or 2 years. Watching on request.

                  And your last phrase. I had no problems with the Criminal Code. There was an option. Get a job in an office after college. That is, to the head office. I would receive 120 rubles and not waste my time now. Yes, about the professor. Don't be so sure. And you won't look funny. I know one professor who had 60 copyright, 35 students with PhD degrees. Medals and prizes from the USSR and from abroad. Author of three monographs. This is my father. And his brother, my uncle, is a professor. And my aunt is a candidate for medical sciences. And my great-grandfather was a choban. Sheep graze. So what about the elite, you again hit the sky with your finger. And I studied with the best oilman in the Soviet Union, academician Mirzadzhanzade. Personally known :-) You can google it too. He taught at the "kerosene stove".

                  I have the honor ...
                5. hardrokc
                  hardrokc 20 March 2016 17: 17
                  +1
                  Quote: Bakht
                  District coefficient of 60%.

                  Regional coefficient they just didn't pay. Therefore, this is not an indicator of the "national average". You would also cite BAM or harmful production as an example. The example is incorrect.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  Engineering received a quarterly premium of 60%.

                  The quarterly premium in self-supporting organizations was 60%. But she was only in self-supporting organizations. And there were few (but there were). In addition, not every quarter.
                  The example is incorrect.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  This is an additional 240 rubles. And salary and ratio. And bonuses. Minuses? I put a rumor there from noise and vibration.

                  I say, if there were surcharges, then for harm to health. Therefore, your examples are incorrect. Health costs more.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  So 600 rubles is not a fantasy, but a harsh reality.

                  Actually, I wrote that the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Internal Affairs received on separate grids. GA, too, I just didn’t finish this. And the people there were not many at all, regarding the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  Do you know the salary of a freelancer in the marine geophysical party?

                  You will also cite the salary of an astronaut as a "typical example".
                  Quote: Bakht
                  I know one professor who had 60 copyright, 35 students with candidate degrees. Medals and prizes from the USSR and from abroad. The author of three monographs.

                  What did you mean?
                  Quote: Bakht
                  And his brother, my uncle, is a professor. And aunt kenedidat medical science

                  And what is this about? What's so cool here? Well, people learned, well done. What's next?
                  Quote: Bakht
                  And my great-grandfather was a choban. Sheep is passing. So what about the elite, you again hit the sky with your finger.

                  Who did you write to the elite? Professors and PhDs? Do not make me laugh, for God's sake. These are just educated people.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  I have the honor

                  If you are a nobleman, then I am happy for you. Although the estates were abolished almost 100 years ago. If not, do not tell.
                6. Bakht
                  Bakht 20 March 2016 17: 26
                  +1
                  The conversation was that I was lying about the salary. I got this money. And he didn’t lie in anything.
                  You wrote about the elite. You look funny. Are the nobles the elite? You still write to our elite pop music. The elite are those people who, through their labor, strengthened the country. That is a miner and an oilman. Breadman and professor. You just somehow disrespectful to the professors. I wrote to you that people from a worker reached scientists. This is the elite. And the nobles swept the country. Read about the elite at your leisure. You are ridiculous if you consider the nobles the elite of the country.

                  We have a fundamental disagreement. Different upbringing and different experience. Hence the priorities. For me, the nobility is not a sign of elitism. The elite are ordinary workers. And scientists. There is no other elite in the country. And it cannot be. Do not be funny.
                7. hardrokc
                  hardrokc 20 March 2016 17: 48
                  +1
                  Quote: Bakht
                  The conversation was that I was lying about the salary.

                  I wrote "fantasizing". These are two different things. You may just not remember.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  You look funny. Are the nobles the elite?

                  Did I write something about the elite nobles?
                  Quote: Bakht
                  The elite are those people who, through their labor, strengthened the country. That is a miner and an oilman. Breadman and professor.

                  Gee-gee. What kind of elite is this?
                  Quote: Bakht
                  I wrote to you that people from a worker reached scientists. This is the elite.

                  This is called rags to riches. Action worthy of all respect. But this is NOT the elite.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  This is the elite. And the nobles swept the country.

                  Which one? Russia? So they did not expect that the Bolsheviks would begin to cut them. They are the Bolsheviks at one time, when they had such an opportunity, did not cut. They did not know how to behave with this gang. They paid for it.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  You are ridiculous if you consider the nobles the elite of the country

                  Actually, we are talking about the events of 100 years ago. What are the nobles now? Where do they come from?
                  Quote: Bakht
                  I nobility is not a sign of elitism.

                  And 100 years ago, the Bolsheviks did not think so. And just the nobles were plagued by the root. Who were able to reach. And who didn’t lick them.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  The elite are ordinary workers. And scientists.

                  Workers, these are workers. He and the definition of a separate is not supposed. Artisans, perhaps. The communists made this a cult of workers. And then they did not know what to do with this cult.
                  Scientists are educated people. And nothing more.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  There is no other elite in the country.

                  This is the trouble, that is not. And in all countries there. Still have to grow the elite. Only it is very long and costly. But there is no other way. There are no nation states without a national elite.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  And can not be.

                  You have no idea how any national democratic state works. It is run by the national elite. At the same time, it does not matter who and what state post holds. As a rule, these are not members of the elite, but "hired managers". Something like clerks with a collective owner (elite). At the same time, the population chooses "clerks". There are no members of the national elite.
                8. Bakht
                  Bakht 20 March 2016 17: 56
                  0
                  This is your "gee-gee" is the essence of the problem. You have no idea what an elite is. And even more so, you don't know how to educate her. "From dirt to Kings"? Snobbery and rudeness. You will go at least half of this path. And be sure to find out what the elite is. And then you don't even have a definition.
                9. hardrokc
                  hardrokc 20 March 2016 18: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: Bakht
                  Snobbery and rudeness. You will walk at least half of this path.

                  Actually, I wrote that this action is worthy of every respect. What else do you want? What is rudeness? That I had to write "ku" 3 more times?
                  And the fact that I do not AUTOMATICALLY recognize your "professors and candidates of sciences" as the national elite is my right. And snobbery is not necessary here.
                10. Bakht
                  Bakht 20 March 2016 18: 16
                  0
                  Rudeness lies in your "gee-gee" You do not consider the workers for the elite? Gee-gee. And gee again. The elite are by definition "the best people". And if a worker receives an order for his labor, he is an elite person for society. That is, the best. And if a person has gone from a worker to a professor, then he is the best of his kind. And also belongs to the elite. Or do you think that the elite is a position? Or rank? This is work. Stakhanov and Korolev are also elite people. And Pokryshkin and Landau. They are completely different. But they are the elite of the country. And they all worked. How the damned plowed without thinking about rewards. Are you going to grow them in a test tube?

                  I wrote "I have the honor" Are you pinned that I'm a nobleman? No, I'm not a nobleman. I am Choban's great-grandson. And I'm not at all ashamed of that. My great-grandfather was a choban, my grandfather was a mathematics teacher, my father was a professor. And yet I have this very honor. But you will not understand this.

                  I'm tired honestly. It is all useless. You are what you are. I will not change either. For me, a good worker is far superior to a manager. If only because I saw a lot of good workers and a lot of bad managers.
                11. hardrokc
                  hardrokc 20 March 2016 19: 03
                  +1
                  Quote: Bakht
                  You do not consider workers for the elite?

                  Can you show me the country where they were considered or are considered such an elite? Including the USSR, if you wish.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  The elite are by definition "the best people".

                  Yes. That's right, "the best people", in quotation marks. Because not necessarily the best. But MANDATORY included in the circle of the elect. And in Russia this circle will be formed, but a little later, with time. Because the old "circle of the elect" was destroyed by the Bolsheviks. And they did not form their own, could not and / or did not want to.
                  There will be no workers in this new circle. I don’t know the professors. Maybe a couple will hit. But not on the basis of education.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  And if a person has gone from a worker to a professor, then he is the best of his kind

                  He is simply well educated. And that’s all. Professor, this is just a certain level of education.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  And also applies to the elite.

                  To your home? May be.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  Elite people include Stakhanov and Korolev. And Pokryshkin and Landau.

                  M-yes.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  I wrote "I have the honor" Are you pinned that I'm a nobleman? No, I'm not a nobleman.

                  Then your phrase is funny. The estates were canceled 100 years ago. Then why do you read the code of noble honor? What side is he to you?
                  Quote: Bakht
                  And yet I have this very honor.

                  It is not "the same honor". "I have the honor" is a very specific phrase at the time. Meaning a very specific thing. With the abolition of estates, it was also abolished.
                  Quote: Bakht
                  For me, a good worker is far superior to a manager.

                  Since no one would object to this.
                12. Bakht
                  Bakht 20 March 2016 19: 47
                  0
                  As I say, you do not understand the meaning of the word "elite". Since you do not decipher your definition, it is difficult to argue. You gave a hint at the "circle of the chosen". Is this a Masonic lodge?

                  I do not accept some definitions. The elite are precisely the best people. Without any quotes. The circle of elect included Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Minister Kozyrev. Is this the elite? These are worms. You don’t understand why I refer workers and scientists to the elite? Or politicians? The position and rank does not matter. It matters mind, conscience and .... honor. Yes, the very honor that you make fun of. What a noble honor? You do not know the meaning of this word? Honor is a norm of behavior, a code of moral principles. Moral, not monetarist. Therefore, Western encyclopedias of management do not fit. Any normal person should have it. But apparently, modern liberals do not understand this.

                  I don’t really like the works of Maxim Kalashnikov. A lot of pathetic. But as for the elite, I completely agree with him

                  The principle "the elite must, be trained and lean" is unshakable. That for the highlanders of the Caucasus, who sent their children to a harsh upbringing in other people's families, that for a state with nuclear warheads and a space fleet.
                13. hardrokc
                  hardrokc 20 March 2016 20: 19
                  +1
                  Quote: Bakht
                  You do not understand the meaning of the word "elite".

                  No, you do not understand the meaning of the term "elite". And the principles of people belonging to this circle of persons. As well as their goals and objectives.
                  In addition, you turned the conversation about the meaning of the phrase "I have the honor" upside down. Which suggests that you do not understand its meaning.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  • hardrokc
    hardrokc 20 March 2016 11: 21
    +1
    Quote: Victor Jnnjdfy
    But the small and "proud" Baltic states ate much more than they produced.

    I have never been a Baltic. But it is necessary to assume who and what might have eaten not according to the Soviet curve statistics (in fact, "phony literacy"), but according to the post-Soviet one. When everyone became very independent. And the statistics have acquired a more or less correct form.
    We look at Allianz 2015 (for 2014) - the level of total accumulated wealth in the country per capita:
    RF - 100%
    Estonia - 1222%
    Latvia - 951%
    Lithuania - 748%
    Ukraine - 115%
    Kazakhstan - 45%
    https://www.allianz.com/v_1443702256000/media/economic_research/publications/spe
    cials / en / AGWR2015_ENG.pdf
    We look at Credit Suisse 2015 (for 2014) - the level of accumulated wealth of individuals over 20 years:
    RF - 100%
    Turkmenistan - 383%
    Estonia - 303%
    Lithuania - 193%
    Latvia - 179%
    Georgia - 159%
    Azerbaijan - 152%
    Kazakhstan - 48%
    Armenia - 46%
    Kyrgyzstan - 42%
    Moldova - 27%
    Tajikistan - 23%
    Belarus - 13%
    Ukraine - 12%
    http://publications.credit-suisse.com/tasks/render/file/index.cfm?fileid=C26E382
    4-E868-56E0-CCA04D4BB9B9ADD5
    On the basis of these data, one can already begin to make some assumptions. And "Soviet statistics" is not entirely serious.
    1. Bakht
      Bakht 20 March 2016 12: 11
      +1
      We, as always, leave the topic. But this is inevitable. And I'm easily looking for some :-)

      Just the Soviet statistics were close to real. And what we see now can only be called manipulations. Just yesterday, Suddenly, the International Petroleum Agency (a solid organization, by the way) discovered that it was mistaken in the amount of oil. For two years we were told about an oversupply of supply - 1,0 1,5, 2,0 million barrels of excess daily and prices are going down. And yesterday, it HAPPENED that the MEA estimates were erroneous by 1 million barrels daily. What other statistics will we be offered?

      According to Soviet statistics, at the end of the 80s it was said that NONE of the republic is self-sufficient. NOT ONE. I remember the data on Azerbaijan. The republic provided itself with grain by 45%. Therefore, we are now critically dependent on wheat supplies from Kazakhstan. Why did the plants stop at our place? Yes, because steel was needed for pipe rental. And they brought her. And so on all positions.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. hardrokc
        hardrokc 20 March 2016 13: 25
        +1
        Quote: Bakht
        Just the Soviet statistics were close to real.

        Do not make me funny.
        Quote: Bakht
        that NONE of the republic is self-sufficient. NOT ONE. I remember the data on Azerbaijan. The republic provided itself with grain by 45%.

        Now I understand the meaning of your term. It is from the past, from the time of the dense star-bearing feudalism (the USSR was called, maybe remember). Today, people live differently. They drive decent cars. They fly on good planes. And enjoy the fruits of the international division of labor. Everyone, even the poorest.
        Quote: Bakht
        Why did the plants stop at our place? Yes, because steel was needed for pipe rental.

        You write, sorry, nonsense. Pipe rental needs markets to sell it. There are such markets, there will be pipe rental. Even if there are no plants, they will build it. There are none of them, even if the existing plants are blocked up with steel, nothing will happen.
        1. Bakht
          Bakht 20 March 2016 13: 48
          0
          And you do not laugh. I don’t laugh at today's statistics. Right now they brought some tsifiri. So they do not even fit with common sense. And the fact that MEA lost 1 million barrels of oil per day is also modern statistics. Yes, for such statistics in Soviet times, the entire Goskomstat would go in orderly rows to Magadan. By the way, to the point. So I laugh with your statistics.

          What is the division of labor, I know. And they always lived like that. You live with the stamps and slogans of modern office plankton. What does feudalism know? I will tell you. Now he. What is the main wealth considered the indispensable condition of the classics of socialism? I can not ask. You still don’t know. NOT a salary and not a car. And not even airplanes. Free time!. This is the main value. A 7-hour working day was introduced in the USSR. And a five-day work week. Then, before the war, I had to return an 8-hour working day. Do you know what feudalism is? This is what we have now. 10 hour working day at 6 day week. This is the norm now in the post-Soviet space. And who is a beggar?

          It’s as if I don’t know what sales are needed. The sale was huge. Pipe-rolling plants stood idle in Baku. And pipes for the pipeline were imported from Malaysia. Although the contract should have been made in Azerbaijan. But from your point of view - why develop production in the colony? We will bring it from Malaysia, and let the local workers put their paw. So you wrote nonsense. I'm sorry. So we still have sales. And all these years has been. But there are no pipes.
          1. hardrokc
            hardrokc 20 March 2016 14: 07
            +1
            Quote: Bakht
            So I laugh with your statistics.

            This is not my statistics. These are statistics from Credit Suisse and Allianz. And you laugh or cry from their statistics, this is your business.
            Quote: Bakht
            You live with the stamps and slogans of modern office plankton. What does feudalism know?

            Crying over my wretchedness. And even sob.
            Quote: Bakht
            What is the main wealth considered the indispensable condition of the classics of socialism? I can not ask. You still don’t know. NOT a salary and not a car. And not even airplanes. Free time!

            That's it! You have opened my eyes to many things. The richest, it turns out, are unemployed, unemployed pensioners and children. Just by a strange coincidence, all of them (except for children) belong to the category of the poor. But in fact they are rich. I enlightened.
            Quote: Bakht
            Do you know what feudalism is? This is what we have now. 10 hour working day at 6 day week. This is the norm now in the post-Soviet space.

            Can you give an example? For example, a modern article of the Criminal Code for parasitism?
            Quote: Bakht
            The sale was huge.

            In your fantasies? Where exactly?
            Quote: Bakht
            And pipes for the pipeline were imported from Malaysia

            And you did not think that it could be cheaper?
            Quote: Bakht
            and let local workers put their paw

            Let them work where it is profitable. And not where they want to work.
            Because today you will put barriers on the importation of pipes. And tomorrow they will put barriers on your export of oil and gas. And you have kirdyk happen. Stick, it is about two ends.
            1. Bakht
              Bakht 20 March 2016 14: 18
              0
              There is no point in arguing. I'm only talking about pipes. The sale was at the construction of the Baku-Tilisi-Ceyhan pipeline. And then on the construction of the gas pipeline. And now pipes are needed for the oil industry. Different and good. That's what kills you, that prices were cheaper. This is clear. But the supply of pipes was recorded in the contract. And it was said there that the supply does not depend on price, but only on the possibility of a local producer. But the money outweighed.

              One must not live in quarterly reports, but in the interests of the state. If you live only on profit, then there will be a full kirdyk. It’s an axiom from the height of my years. I’m not even going to argue.
            2. hardrokc
              hardrokc 20 March 2016 15: 16
              +1
              Quote: Bakht
              One must not live in quarterly reports, but in the interests of the state.

              "The interests of the state" are the interests of the majority of its inhabitants. They coincide with the interests of these residents, such a state has the right to exist. Doesn't match, doesn't. Everything else is propaganda nonsense. And dictatorship.
              Quote: Bakht
              If you live only on profit, then there will be a full kirdyk.

              If you live without profit, but only with "high and correct motives," then just kirdyk will be. Why go far? Look at the USSR.
            3. Bakht
              Bakht 20 March 2016 15: 31
              0
              Live profit. I am sure in kirdyk. And soon. Your flag often changes. Do not want to read about the profits of the great Russian philosopher A. Zinoviev. Well, there was an anti-Stalinist .... Not for you couple. Then he stated that he was greatly mistaken in his youth.

              I cannot recommend it to you. Judging by your posts here you will not be interested. "Russian Tragedy".
            4. hardrokc
              hardrokc 20 March 2016 15: 46
              +1
              Quote: Bakht
              Do not want to read about the profits of the great Russian philosopher A. Zinoviev. Well, there was an anti-Stalinist .... Not for you couple. Then he stated that he was greatly mistaken in his youth.

              You know, I have read many such "philosophers" at one time. Marx, there with Corefan Engels. Ulyanov named Lenin. Campanella. T. Mora. I do not recommend that you read them all. They write nonsense. Here, right there.
              You better master some specialty you need. And meet your growing needs on your own. If only the state did not bother you. And it will interfere, change the state. And continue to satisfy.
              Here is a simple and understandable recipe for a "long and rich life."
  • andj61
    andj61 20 March 2016 14: 51
    0
    Quote: eugraphus
    In the USSR there were only two non-subsidized republics - the RSFSR and Azerbaijan.

    Actually, three are also Belarus ... repeat
  • Akuzenka
    Akuzenka 24 March 2016 23: 18
    0
    Shprotoedov - in the geyropu, and the territory, to us.
  • VB
    VB 19 March 2016 14: 26
    0
    The decision is right. These are five laughing
  • Siberia 9444
    Siberia 9444 19 March 2016 07: 14
    +2
    We are armed (selling) modern Russian weapons to Azerbaijan yet a knitz.
    1. avt
      avt 19 March 2016 09: 23
      +16
      Quote: Siberia 9444
      We are armed (selling) modern Russian weapons to Azerbaijan yet a knitz.

      wassat What? Will they go to Moscow on it? Well, to restore the stalls demolished by Sobyanin near the metro, which the brother of the owner of Cherkizon, Izmailov, controlled and washed. Well, let's take the fuck out, "Bird" and for a "sanitary" week, we'll close in Moscow the European, the Moscow shopping center and something else, maybe not for little things, well, "Lublizon." will go to storm.
      1. Altona
        Altona 19 March 2016 10: 54
        0
        Quote: avt
        .So they’ll immediately turn around and go to storm Baku.

        --------------------
        Yes, and how? We can still block all money transfers to Azerbaijan. And this is probably a lot of money, given the level of consumption in the capital.
        1. Yeraz
          Yeraz 19 March 2016 15: 16
          +3
          Quote: Altona
          We can still block all money transfers to Azerbaijan. And this is probably a lot of money,

          This is a very small amount of money. Before you write a hundred times, I’ve told many people here, papaetsya and learn a little bit about the economy.
          Money transfers play a significant role for Tajikistan, Armenia and Kyrgyzstan, and partly Uzbekistan. This could have influenced Azerbaijan in the 90s. Right now it does not play a role.
          And the reason is simple. Many have become citizens of the Russian Federation, many live in Russia as families because it is not profitable to send money there, many have houses here, their children grew up or were already born in Russia, study at schools and universities in Russia and serve in the Russian army. And a new generation already does not work in the markets, like most of the older generation.
          1. avt
            avt 19 March 2016 15: 31
            +1
            Quote: Altona
            We can still block all money transfers to Azerbaijan.

            Quote: Yeraz
            This is very little money.

            Well, probably yes, Tajiks, Kyrgyz and other Uzbeks are probably sending more, well, if that's the case in private, piece from the nose, in proportion to say so.
            Quote: Yeraz
            .And the new generation no longer works in the markets, like most of the older generation.

            laughing No, well, again, sellers even try to dial locals - they don’t shine with the same Central Asian migrant workers, running into the FMS openly, but that’s how they left the market ....laughingThere is no need to tell fairy tales, yes - there are no puddles "with" Cherkizon "anymore, but there are places further from the center of Moscow" Lublizon "and clothes, and vegetables for a couple with dags, and they keep coffee boxes, take a ride at least The Moscow Ring Road is thoughtful - you will learn a lot of interesting things, but God forbid, of course, or the diaspora will collect money for it, just like the Armenian in this case, it has already happened and there is nothing unknown here.
            1. Yeraz
              Yeraz 19 March 2016 16: 17
              +1
              Quote: avt
              but that’s how they left the market like that .... There’s no need to tell tales

              And I didn’t say that I left.
              Firstly, these markets have become scanty.
              And I talked about the younger generation. The oldest is still represented there, but the new does not go there. This is rare.
              Quote: avt
              But God forbid, of course, or the diaspora will collect money for it, just like the Armenian one, in this case, it was already and there is nothing unknown here.

              Of course, they will collect money. But the middle class will give it. The Azerbaijani billionaires will not give, since they are FSB-controlled people, since it is not possible to own such assets without close contacts and a roof from above. Therefore, no one counts on them in Azerbaijan.
              1. avt
                avt 19 March 2016 16: 39
                0
                Quote: Yeraz
                Firstly, these markets have become scanty.

                They retreated beyond the Moscow Ring Road to the region, again, many expanded to shopping centers ,,, Cherkizon "no, but the old markets remained.
                Quote: Yeraz
                The Azerbaijani billionaires will not give, since they are controlled by the FSB

                Well, of course, you can take hell with Alikperov, but people like Izmailov's brother, and in fact, Telman himself will be explained with an excavator, if they do not understand humanly that “the Turks will not get off with tomatoes” and that Luzhkov is not the mayor of the capital.
          2. Chisayna
            Chisayna 19 March 2016 15: 39
            0
            I’m not at all sentimental, but I almost started to cry after such words. Many became citizens of the Russian Federation, study at schools and universities of Russia. They serve in the army of the Russian Federation. Oh, where is my handkerchief. Well, Russia and Azerbaijan have been directly related for centuries. Then why are you occupy a pro-Azerbaijani position. If you are in most citizens of the Russian Federation?
            1. Yeraz
              Yeraz 19 March 2016 16: 24
              0
              Quote: Chisain
              I’m not at all sentimental, but I almost started to cry after such words. Many have become citizens of the Russian Federation, study at schools and universities of Russia. They serve in the army of the Russian Federation. Oh, where is my handkerchief. Well, Russia and Azerbaijan have been directly related by centuries.

              What other relationship, I'm talking about the fact.
              Quote: Chisain
              Then why do you take the Azerbaijan position. If you are in most citizens of the Russian Federation?

              And that is, if Russian has become a US citizen or Germany, he must be pro-American or pro German and not be pro-Russian ????
              I don’t remember that my acquaintances, upon receipt of the Russian passport, would sign such a point))))
              We are citizens of the Russian Federation, not patriots of the Russian Federation. Azerbaijani blood flows in us. The Russian state understands this perfectly. Therefore, Muslims in Caucasians have a limit in living in state structures, especially in power structures. And if you are Ogly, that is, an Azerbaijani, it’s still a big limiter. For example, Armenians and Ossetians don’t have it. More precisely, they have less restrictions. Everyone understands perfectly well. Russia knows perfectly well who is who with the red passport. It’s one thing to throw Chechens against Ukrainians in Donbass, but try to throw them against the Turks, there they will not shoot at them, but rather the opposite.
              Therefore, owning a passport does not mean being anti to one’s blood and historical homeland.
              1. Chisayna
                Chisayna 19 March 2016 16: 54
                +5
                It’s clear that we are citizens, but not patriots of the Russian Federation. It’s perverted. Why do you need law enforcement agencies to protect your countrymen in vegetable markets?
                1. Yeraz
                  Yeraz 22 March 2016 01: 12
                  +1
                  Quote: Chisain
                  And then why do you need law enforcement agencies in order to protect their fellow countrymen in the vegetable markets for sure.

                  I personally do not. My family has a concept of honor. Only 1 person served in the army of the Russian Federation from close relatives, all the rest are only in Azerbaijan, although everyone was born and raised in the Russian Federation. But, there is a considerable category that goes to the Ministry of Internal Affairs with these thoughts.
              2. Altona
                Altona 20 March 2016 00: 07
                -1
                Quote: Yeraz
                We are citizens of the Russian Federation, not patriots of the Russian Federation. Azerbaijan blood flows in us. The Russian state understands this perfectly.

                ----------------------------
                For such a phrase BOOOOL SUCH A MINUS! EVEN TWO! DO NOT PUT IN THE WELL AND DO NOT BIT THE GIVING HAND!
                PS By the way, in solidarity with Turkey on the military issue, you are in solidarity with the terror that it supports. Before that, even the Turkish General Staff had not thought of. All these are the games of Erdogan and Chavushoglu.
                1. Yeraz
                  Yeraz 20 March 2016 01: 00
                  -1
                  Quote: Altona
                  For such a phrase BOOOOL SUCH A MINUS! EVEN TWO! DO NOT PUT IN THE WELL AND DO NOT BIT THE GIVING HAND!

                  What ??? what other well ??? Russia brought my relatives to Russia, we didn’t ask here. They stupidly took it and threw it here, they gave our lands to others. And we don’t bite anything. We have been living civilized for 100 years. And we openly express our thoughts as a man. Or how does a rat sit and admit false patriotism, as others do ???
                  Quote: Altona
                  By the way, in solidarity with Turkey on the military issue, you are in solidarity with the terror that it supports.

                  And why did you get this ??? Not supporting in many respects the policy of Russia does not mean its complete rejection. Also, supporting Turkey does not mean supporting its entire policy.
                  And for Turkey, one thing, and Erdogan is different. We perfectly remember that Erdogan tried to open the border with Armenia and only after the protests of the Turkish people realized that he had gone wrong. And Isil’s support in overthrowing Asaad is also not right, like his whole Syrian policy .
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. Altona
                    Altona 20 March 2016 12: 57
                    +1
                    Quote: Yeraz
                    What ??? what other well ??? Russia brought my relatives to Russia, we didn’t ask here. They stupidly took it and threw it here, they gave our lands to others. And we don’t bite anything. We have been living civilized for 100 years. And we openly express our thoughts as a man. Or how does a rat sit and admit false patriotism, as others do ???

                    ------------------
                    This is how Russia brought it? Oh no no no? It turns out that Russia is "dragging by the hands." How civilized is it? “Economically actively” we rob the local population. And we openly admit our disloyalty, nothing is absolutely threatened for this. And why like a rat? I am quite myself sitting in my homeland, I write openly about this and have not stayed in any city, in which I have stayed even more than 6 months. I list the cities - Moscow, Baku, Minsk, Nizhny Novgorod, Chelyabinsk, Kstovo, Bor, Arzamas, Cheboksary, Kazan, Klin, Ulyanovsk, Vladimir, Tsivilsk, Yekaterinburg, Kirov. He lived in Moscow for 6 years, in Nizhny and Chelyabinsk for 4 years.
                    1. Yeraz
                      Yeraz 22 March 2016 01: 17
                      0
                      Quote: Altona
                      Is this how Russia brought it ??

                      It’s just that the soviets came. They went up to the mountains and took people who vaguely imagined what Russia, the USSR and Russian were thrown to the front in Leningrad.
              3. Sergej1972
                Sergej1972 21 March 2016 22: 22
                0
                In fact, any citizen of the Russian Federation must be its patriot.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. garnik64
        garnik64 19 March 2016 14: 11
        +3
        Telman Ismailov is a mountain Jew. Therefore, his business went so well.
        1. cumastra1
          cumastra1 19 March 2016 14: 39
          0
          + Highland Jew, funny immediately surfaced - Jewish Highlander (with a sword which)
        2. cumastra1
          cumastra1 19 March 2016 14: 39
          0
          + Highland Jew, funny immediately surfaced - Jewish Highlander (with a sword which)
          1. garnik64
            garnik64 19 March 2016 16: 05
            0
            This is which with BRAINS.
        3. 3MGK
          3MGK 19 March 2016 23: 52
          +1
          probably a descendant of the Khazars
          1. garnik64
            garnik64 20 March 2016 21: 51
            +1
            They claim that they are pure Jews, descendants of the Jews of the Persian Empire. They know the history of Azerbaijan very well. They have witnessed polemics between Azerbaijanis and them.
      4. Seal
        Seal 20 March 2016 19: 11
        +1
        Yes, there now, as they say, "keep the oil" not only they.

        Now, the sole owner of Danvesta is businessman Arthur Asatryan, known by the nickname Don Pipo. The publication recalls that in 2013 the Italian authorities put him on the international wanted list in connection with the murder of criminal authority Ded Hassan. “Neither the search nor the crisis prevented Asatryan from expanding the Danvesta kiosk network to several hundred ...”, RBC notes. And further notes: “Danvesta’s business has not been affected by the street trade reform launched by Sobyanin in 2011. Some of the places that the company’s kiosks occupied in the center of Moscow were auctioned off at some point, but shortly before the competition, these lots were removed from the auction and the previous contracts were extended with the company. Also, Danvesta turned out to be an almost exclusive producer of new-style stalls. Danvela CEO Manvel Hovhannisyan is a member of the public council of the city’s trade department. According to this agency, by the end of 2015, Danvesta had kept all 142 kiosks in the capital. Get comments from company representatives failed. They say that they don’t have a "press specialist."

        http://russia-armenia.info/node/24782
        http://hayastannews.com/news/108674.html

        Arthur Asatryan, aka Don Pipo, was born (1971) and raised in Etchmiadzin, where he is very famous. He currently resides in Italy. Villa Arthur, located in Rome, which has 4,8 hectares, was once the residence of the President of Italy.
        We present the luxurious mansion of Don Pipo, located in Etchmiadzin, which has an excellent architectural solution.

        http://www.slaq.am/rus/news/156092/
        1. garnik64
          garnik64 21 March 2016 21: 51
          0
          He himself lived in Etchmiadzin, perhaps there was such authority, there are enough of them. If they proved that he was the killer of Grandfather Hassan, he would not be alive. I read that this is the work of Rovshan Lenkoransky, who is hiding. At the expense of his business, this is a question for Sobyanin and Kolokoltsev. But in general, you can plant everyone with their eyes closed, starting with Usmanov, at least before him (Asatryan).
    2. gergi
      gergi 19 March 2016 21: 49
      0
      All to fuck! Having sold them armaments, they made them dependent on maintenance, ammunition, spare parts, upgrades and so on and so forth. They don’t even jerk. Do not sell, we will sell our flat friends. And will set! Will make! Provoke! Do we need this, homegrown strategists?
      1. 3MGK
        3MGK 20 March 2016 00: 05
        -1
        The only thing is that countries that consider themselves civilized and have at least some moral principles categorically do not sell offensive weapons to Azerbaijan. About 5 years ago, South Korea refused a multi-billion dollar contract (after which Az. Turned to Russia), and when Turkey sold its self-propelled guns, Germany demanded to remove its engines from these plants (Russia now installs engines). In Russia, it is simply called business. But when, about 10 years ago, Armenia wanted to draw a large diameter Iranian pipe through its territory, Armenia was branded a traitor in the Russian press.
        1. Seal
          Seal 20 March 2016 19: 50
          0
          But when, about 10 years ago, Armenia wanted to draw a large diameter Iranian pipe through its territory, Armenia was branded a traitor in the Russian press.

          Can you link to articles in our press on the topic you have indicated?
          1. garnik64
            garnik64 21 March 2016 22: 09
            0
            The anti-Armenian is clogged up in your computer, you are on the links. Http://www.xalqqazeti.com/en/news/analytics/19295 Armenia would have earned currency for the transportation of gas, but alas, Russia does not need competitors. The President of Armenia is trying not to spread such issues.
            link first hit.
  • Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 19 March 2016 07: 25
    +5
    By and large, the situation for Azerbaijan is no different from the rest of the former Soviet republics.
    Refusing to unite with Russia, they have gained only one problem, which they cannot solve in their favor ...
    1. Mahmut
      Mahmut 19 March 2016 08: 01
      +4
      Refusing to unite with Russia,

      Really refused? And is there a document?
      1. miller66
        miller66 19 March 2016 11: 56
        +5
        Quote: Mahmut
        Refusing to unite with Russia,

        Really refused? And is there a document?


        Why do you need pieces of paper?
        Look at things
        For example - joint exercises with Turkey
        1. Yeraz
          Yeraz 19 March 2016 15: 18
          -3
          Quote: miller66
          For example - joint exercises with Turkey

          Well, it was necessary with Russia, which supports Armenia that has seized Azerbaijan’s lands and receives weapons from Russia for nothing ??? Any president of Azerbaijan will be hanged by eggs if he goes to fraternize with Russia while Russia supports Armenia. If Russia at least maintains neutrality, then many will be for Russia.
        2. Mahmut
          Mahmut 19 March 2016 17: 24
          +3
          Look at things
          For example - joint exercises with Turkey


          What is the topic of the teachings? Attack on Russia, or the fight against certain terrorists?
          Azerbaijan is a member of the CIS, but unlike Russia, the Bialowieza conspiracy did not tarnish itself. This is judged by deeds. In addition, Russia and the Turks not so long ago were almost among the bros. So why is Azerbaijan rushing to Turkey? C the fact that the Turks offered a more profitable oil transit?
          1. Yeraz
            Yeraz 20 March 2016 01: 04
            +1
            Quote: Mahmut
            Attack on Russia, or the fight against certain terrorists?

            Well, only full can imagine the attack of Azerbaijan and Turkey on Russia))
            Of course the fight against terrorists, well, maybe even the Armenians))
            Quote: Mahmut
            So why is Azerbaijan rushing to Turkey? C the fact that the Turks offered a more profitable oil transit?

            Hooray-patriots can not see and understand anything.
  • cyber
    cyber 19 March 2016 07: 55
    -1
    This is some kind of slander in the sale of weapons. Immediate interests in dollar terms outweigh common sense and a sense of self-preservation.
    1. Alex 1972
      Alex 1972 19 March 2016 08: 30
      +1
      Who do you consider to be a more valuable ally for Russia, Azerbaijan or Armenia?
      1. saigon
        saigon 19 March 2016 08: 44
        +9
        I just beware of believing in an ally Armenia. Armenia pursues only its goals. She needs Russia as a defense against Azerbaijan and Turkey and not more than that.
        1. garnik64
          garnik64 19 March 2016 09: 37
          +2
          And Armenia for Russia, as a bridgehead. Believe me, if Armenia was unnecessary for Russia, there would be no Russian base on its territory.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 19 March 2016 09: 54
            +9
            A foothold for what?

            During the threatened period, the base will be completely blocked (Georgia, Azerbaijan) from supplies, only an "air bridge"

            But there will be problems - Armenia is a deeply pro-NATO country. The level of its integration with the North Atlantic bloc is perhaps the highest in the post-Soviet space, except for the Baltic states.

            So the utility of this base is near-zero. In the event of any exacerbation of the situation, its functionality will be seriously limited.
            1. Karlos
              Karlos 19 March 2016 10: 33
              +4
              During World War I, Patriotic Armenia was a bridgehead, about pro-NATO Armenia, do not carry nonsense, moreover frank. To block Armenia from Georgia, are you serious or just to say this?
              1. saigon
                saigon 19 March 2016 11: 01
                +3
                Russia has no direct connection with Armenia; there is no current through Georgia. Geography cannot be fooled either (this is not a science of history, but a fact without double or five options). And I don’t think that Georgia will allow aid to Armenia through its territory. But I simply can’t believe in the victory of Azerbaijan over Armenia. A bunch of tanks and armored personnel carriers with infantry fighting vehicles is not an army of high combat efficiency. Moreover, one should take into account there is not a plain, although there are no rocks on the line of contact. Yes, and the war in the NPO showed what the Azerbaijani army was worth or what it represented the army at that time.
                1. Talgat
                  Talgat 19 March 2016 23: 10
                  +1
                  Quote: saigon
                  Russia has no direct connection with Armenia; there is no current through Georgia.


                  The main connection goes through Iran. Iran supports Russia and Armenia; tk is an adversary of Turkey. Saudis and the USA
              2. Lopatov
                Lopatov 19 March 2016 11: 36
                +9
                Quote: Karlos
                about pro-NATO Armenia, do not carry nonsense

                State bodies Armenian authorities are sitting on NATO servers.
                NATO specialists participate in the formation of the military doctrine of Armenia, the reform of its armed forces, the formation of the military budget, and military education policy.

                In general, type "NATO Armenia" in a search engine, and finally get rid of illusions about this "Ally"
              3. Seal
                Seal 20 March 2016 20: 28
                -1
                Let's start with the fact that during the First World War there was no Armenia. As well as there were no Georgia and Azerbaijan. There were Erivan, Kutaisi, Tbilisi, Baku and so on provinces of the Russian Empire. All of us in Transcaucasia was, so to speak, "our bridgehead." Although he (the bridgehead) was not needed in FIG. For in 1914, after the outbreak of the First World War, we had to refrain from war with Turkey with all our might. Moreover, at the very beginning of the First World War, Turkey was not at all going to get into it. The Sultan was against the war, the Grand Vizier was also against the war. Of the Young Turks triumvirate, only Enver Pasha stood firmly on the side of Germany for immediate entry into the war. Yes, the Germans were pulling Turkey into the war with all their might. But it is not a fact that the Germans alone, without the help of the Armenians, would have managed to drag Turkey into the First World War. However, during the entire period of peace with Turkey, Armenian "vigilantes" (in modern language - international terrorists) moved from Russian territory to Turkey and committed "acts of retaliation" there against Turkish officials, officers and soldiers, policemen, mullahs and simply Turks and Kurds. And the worst thing is that the Armenians were strenuously spreading rumors that they were doing all this almost on the orders of the Russian authorities. It is clear that information about the bloody raids of retaliation and information about rumors reached Istanbul and all of Turkey. And in three months, public opinion in Turkey was already so much for the war with Russia that at the end of October 1914, Evner-Pasha, who was like a war minister, at his own peril and risk, authorized the withdrawal of the Turkish fleet, including the former Goeben and Breslau from German crews to shell our shores. As a result, a state of war was declared between Russia and Turkey. Russia was put in conditions of war on two fronts and lost the ability to receive help from the allies in the Black Sea ports. It was necessary to urgently start building a railway from Murmansk (Romanov-na Murman), which was commissioned only in December 1916.
                On the Caucasian front, it is clear that we won. However, these victories of ours did not have the slightest impact on the course of the First World War as a whole. We were retreating on the German front. After the war, Field Marshal Ludendorff let slip that: "If we had not been able to involve Turkey in the war on our side, Germany would not have held out until 1916."
                But the Germans, with the active help of the Armenians, managed to drag Turkey into the war. World War I dragged on. Our armies suffered millions losses. The people and the army began to tire of the war. A pre-revolutionary situation was created. How it all ended - everyone knows.
                1. garnik64
                  garnik64 21 March 2016 22: 27
                  0
                  I’m not going to prove anything to you. You write a box that only paid or I can not write. Cheap provocateur.
              4. Seal
                Seal 20 March 2016 20: 37
                0
                Domestic, Armenia

                There was no sovereign Armenia in the Great Patriotic War either. neither sovereign Georgia, nor sovereign Azerbaijan.
                And again we didn't need any "bridgehead" in FIG. For during the Second World War, Turkey behaved extremely correctly. In World War II, Turkey until the beginning of 1945 occupied an exclusively neutral position, and in 1945, like most countries in the world, declared war on Germany. But her neutrality actually helped us HUGE in the war. For Turkey withstood all the frenzied pressure from both Hitler and Mussolini - but it did not open the straits for their warships (Italian surface ships and German submarines). The only thing that the Germans managed to push through the straits a pair of self-propelled barges (without weapons) under the guise of commercial ships. And that's all. And then the Germans armed these barges. The Turks cut through (or we tapped the Turks) - and even self-propelled barges stopped letting through. All other barges, torpedo boats, and so on, the Germans and Italians had to deliver either along the Danube, or brought in disassembled form by rail and assembled in Constanta.
                And now just imagine that in 1941 or in 1942 an Italian battleship would appear on the Black Sea with cruisers and escort destroyers with the complete domination of the Germans in the air !!! That was ??? Yes, even if not a battleship, but a pair of Italian cruisers !!
                But we, unfortunately, did not appreciate the position of Turkey at that time.
                1. genisis
                  genisis 21 March 2016 11: 56
                  +2
                  After Germany’s aggression against the Soviet Union, the Turkish government officially declared its neutrality, but a number of measures taken by Ankara prove that Turkey was actually a satellite of Nazi Germany during the war. As the German ambassador Franz von Papen reported to his government, Turkish President Mustafa Ismet Inönyu assured him at the beginning of 1942 that "Turkey is highly interested in the destruction of the Russian colossus." When taking office as prime minister in August 1942, Shyukryu Sarajoglu told Papen that “as a Turk, he longs for the destruction of Russia” and that “the Russian problem can be solved by Germany only if at least half of all living in Russian Russians "[German politics in Turkey (1941-1943). Documents of the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Vol. P. M., Gospoddizdat, 1946, p. 98].
                  1. Bakht
                    Bakht 21 March 2016 12: 08
                    0
                    What measures prove that Turkey was a satellite of Germany? Well, except for the words, of course.

                    Senator Truman also spoke some words. Then in the 44th he became vice president, and in the 45th president of the United States
                  2. Seal
                    Seal 21 March 2016 13: 03
                    0
                    Quote: genisis
                    but a number of measures undertaken by Ankara prove that Turkey during the war years was actually a satellite of Nazi Germany

                    And what are these "measures"?
                    The president said

                    The Prime Minister said

                    Oh, how terrible this "series of measures" is - I'm already afraid !!!
                    He said it was air shock. And that’s it !!!
                    And not the fact that they said, since all this is known from
                    How the German ambassador Franz von Papen reported to his government
                    .
                    Yes, what Hitler wanted to hear was what he reported.
                    It is necessary to look at CASES, at CASES - not words.
                    In words, the Armenians are "the best friends and allies of Russia." And on business? Allies, damn it, when do you recognize Crimea as part of Russia ???
                    1. genisis
                      genisis 21 March 2016 13: 19
                      +1
                      So, on September 9, 1941, the German command led the German patrol ship "Seefalke" through the straits into the Black Sea, which was a gross violation of the Convention on the Straits and caused a submission from the USSR to the Turkish government. In August 1941, the Turkish authorities gave permission for the Italian auxiliary ship Tarvisio to pass through the straits into the Black Sea, in connection with which the Soviet government also made a presentation to Turkey. 4. XI 1942, the Soviet government again drew the attention of the Turkish government to the fact that Germany intends to pass through the straits, under the guise of merchant ships, auxiliary warships with a total displacement of 140 thousand tons, intended for the transfer of military forces and military materials of the Axis countries to the Black Sea, and that the passage of these ships would be in clear violation of the Montreux convention. In June 1944, the Soviet government protested to the Turkish government against the passage through the straits from the Black Sea to the Aegean by German military and military auxiliary vessels of various tonnages such as Ems (1944 ships) and Kriegstransport, which took place in late May and early June 8. "(5 ships) participating in naval operations in the Black Sea. In addition, the Turkish authorities repeatedly passed German high-speed barges through the straits in 1942-1943. The dimensions of the threat posed to the security of the Black Sea were such that the Soviet High Command had to remove a significant number of armed forces from the main directions of the theater of operations to defend the Black Sea region.

                      In the light of these circumstances, even England and the United States were forced to admit the unsatisfactory Montreux convention. At the Potsdam Conference of 1945 (...) the governments of the USSR, England and the USA agreed that this convention should be revised as not meeting the conditions of the present, and that as a next step, this issue will be the subject of direct negotiations between each of the three powers and Turkish government.

                      In accordance with the decision of the Potsdam Conference, the Government of the USSR began negotiations with Turkey. By a note of 7. VIII 1946, it proposed to the Turkish government that the following five principles be the basis of the straits regime: 1) straits should always be open for passage of merchant ships of all countries; 2) straits should always be open for passage of military vessels of the Black Sea powers; 3) passage through straits for military vessels of non-Black Sea powers is not allowed, with the exception of special cases; 4) the establishment of a regime of straits as the only sea route leading from the Black Sea and to the Black Sea should be the competence of Turkey and other Black Sea powers; 5) Turkey and the Soviet Union, as the states most interested and able to ensure freedom of merchant shipping and security in the straits, jointly organize the defense of the straits to prevent the use of the straits by other states for purposes hostile to the Black Sea powers.

                      Soviet proposals, fully justified by the lessons of the entire long history of the issue of the straits, were not, however, accepted by Turkey. 24. IX 1946 The Soviet government sent a new note to the Turkish government on this issue, in which it thoroughly analyzed the arguments of the Turkish government and proved their failure. But this time too, the Turkish government, under the influence of the Anglo-American imperialist circles hostile to the Soviet Union, refused to promote a fair resolution of the issue of the straits.

                      Thus, the issue of the straits, having gone through various historical phases and having largely changed its form, and partly its content, still remains unresolved at the present time.

                      And so no one let anyone go anywhere.
                      That is why you always so cautiously say that you are lying?
                      1. genisis
                        genisis 21 March 2016 13: 27
                        +1
                        After their visit to the Crimea in 1941, Turkish generals Ali Fuad Erden and Hussein Husnu Erkilet traveled to Wolfschants and discussed various strategies for waging war against the USSR with Hitler, in which Turkey played an important role. The territory of Turkey was actively used by fascist Germany for air espionage, the transfer of its agents, sabotage and reconnaissance groups and special airborne landing forces to the territory of the Caucasus region. In 1941-1944 Turkey, contrary to the terms of the convention on the Black Sea Straits, passed through the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus German and Italian mine loaders, minesweepers, submarines, PLO ships, landing ships and military transports that were used against the Soviet Black Sea Fleet. In addition, Turkey supplied the Third Reich with strategic raw materials of great importance to it (chrome and copper).



                        The most tense situation became in the summer of 1942, after the start of the German offensive against Stalingrad and the Caucasus. An all-out mobilization was carried out, the Turkish armed forces reached the number of one million people. With the beginning of the battle for Stalingrad, about 750 thousand Turkish soldiers were pulled up to the Soviet border. Expecting the imminent defeat of the USSR, Turkey also took internal measures. On November 11, 1942, under the pretext of "Turkization" of the economy, a property tax ("varlyk vergisi") was introduced, according to which non-Muslims (Armenians, Greeks, Jews and Levantines) had to pay five times more than Muslims. Since Christian and Jewish families were required to deposit in cash amounts commensurate with or even exceeding the total value of these families' property, this led to their complete ruin. The property of taxpayers, including furniture and household utensils, was confiscated and sold for a song at a hammer, and able-bodied men from such families were arrested and sent to forced labor (quarrying stones, building roads, mining mines). More than 2 non-Muslims were sent to labor camps. However, the victory of the Soviet troops radically changed the situation and plans to attack the USSR were curtailed. Confiscations and arrests of non-Muslims stopped, labor camp prisoners were released, and property tax debts were canceled; the authorities also took steps to end anti-Semitic agitation.
                      2. Seal
                        Seal 21 March 2016 15: 23
                        0
                        With the start of the battle for Stalingrad, about 750 thousand Turkish soldiers were pulled to the Soviet border.

                        Well ? Why did Turkey send 750 thousand soldiers to our border? Was she going to attack us? Yes, in the event of the fall of Stalingrad and the capture of the Caucasus by the Germans - Turkey would no longer be able to attack us - there would be Germans everywhere. But the fact that she took care of her safety in advance is a fact. Indeed, in the ranks of the German troops advancing in the Caucasus, there was Corps "F" - Felmi, whose task was to operate in the Arab East. That is, the Turks more than thoroughly feared that the Germans, having defeated the Red Army, could violate the Turkish border.
                        Property of taxpayers, including furniture and household utensils, was confiscated and sold for nothing
                        This is the internal affair of the Turks. Turkey was preparing to repel German aggression, and the population of all the warring countries did not have a sweet time.
                      3. genisis
                        genisis 21 March 2016 15: 37
                        +1
                        http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/1654063
                  3. genisis
                    genisis 21 March 2016 13: 29
                    0
                    The last attempt to keep Turkey in the sphere of German influence was the visit of Turkish generals and staff officers to the Eastern Front and the English Channel on June 25 - July 7, 1943. In the presence of German field marshal Erich von Manstein, the Turkish delegation led by the chairman of the Turkish National Defense Committee, Jemil Jahit Toidemir, demonstrated the maneuvers of the tank divisions concentrated in the Kharkov-Belgorod area prepared for the attack on Kursk.
                    From Belgorod, the Turks arrived in Wolfschants, where Toidemir held a lengthy meeting with Hitler and Keitel. To enhance the impression of the maneuvers of tank divisions on the Eastern Front, the Turkish delegation was invited to the English Channel to inspect the heavily fortified points of the Atlantic Wall. But, as you know, Hitler's window dressing did not save Germany from defeat, and the Turkish hyena, with its cunning and expectant tactics, quickly joined the ranks of the anti-fascist coalition. On February 23, 1945, Turkey formally declared war on Germany to become one of the founding countries of the United Nations (together with Yugoslavia). The very Yugoslavia, which Germany and Turkey, and by no means formally, was slaughtered alive fifty years later ...
                  4. Seal
                    Seal 21 March 2016 15: 29
                    -1
                    and turkish hyena
                    Oh, how Nazi rushes about you, just like from a sewer pipe of huge diameter. Do you even understand what you wrote? You accused Turkey of the fact that Hitler’s window dress did not impress the Turks. You should have a sedative drink, otherwise you can burst from your anger.
                  5. genisis
                    genisis 21 March 2016 15: 39
                    +1
                    "The Caucasus has stood, the Caucasus has won. Veterans remember." Tbilisi, 1973, p. 130-131.
                    On July 4, in a conversation with the leaders of the Transcaucasian republics, Stalin announced:
                    ... the front is far away from you, but you are in a danger zone. We cannot be sure of Turkey's neutrality ... "

                    But you know better
                  6. Seal
                    Seal 21 March 2016 15: 44
                    0
                    Are you going to quote the entire State Political Publishing House?
            2. Seal
              Seal 21 March 2016 15: 03
              -1
              Well, here's a good example of Nazi arrogance and stupidity. How many times have I already explained to various Armenians - no, everything is not for horses. Well, not even "not into horses", but ...
              So again they are about the same thing
              So, on 9. VII 1941, the German command led the German patrol ship "Seefalke" through the straits into the Black Sea

              In various variations, there is also the "SKR Seelfalke", the patrol boat "Zellfalke" and even the "large warship Seelfalke".
              But in fact ... let's check if my Nazi opponent knows what type of ships the Seelfalk belongs to? I give it until the evening.
              And what type of ship do you refer to
              In August 1941, the Turkish authorities gave permission to pass through the straits into the Black Sea to the Italian auxiliary vessel Tarvisio
              you know
              Doesn't know either !! Well, let him also look until the evening. I'll flush him in the evening !!!
              And these
              In June 1944, the Soviet government protested to the Turkish government against the passage through the straits from the Black Sea to the Aegean by German military and military auxiliary vessels of various tonnages such as Ems (1944 ships) and Kriegstransport, which took place in late May and early June 8. "(5 ships) participating in naval operations in the Black Sea.
              were so civilian that Turkey, which had just announced its accession to the allies, found no reason not to release these vessels.
              http://www.wunderwafe.ru/Articles/Krum/index.htm
              While in Crimea the command of the 17th Army and the naval commandant of Crimea planned to evacuate the army, the struggle for the annulment of Hitler’s decision continued at the “highest level”. Meanwhile, the withdrawal of German troops from Crimea had an impact on Turkish politics. On April 21, the Turkish government, under pressure from England and the United States, announced the end of the month's supply of chromium ore to Germany. At the same time, it was stated that Turkey is not a "neutral", but a "union" state. Hitler became even more afraid that, despite the optimistic reports of the German ambassador in Ankara von Papen, she could at any time not only break off diplomatic relations, but also openly enter the war.

              By the way, we still need to see if these ships passed through the straits or were interned by Turkey.
            3. genisis
              genisis 21 March 2016 15: 10
              +1
              I'll flush him in the evening

              Better to spoil your wife, if you have something
            4. Seal
              Seal 21 March 2016 21: 58
              -1
              We proceed to the indicative flogging.
              A decent person, before posting accusatory information - checks it. But my opponent is not one of those. Why would he check something? Yes, he does not know how to do it.
              Let's start with the terrible escort ship Seefalke.

              A little internet search and we find a book about the history of shipwrecks by Joseph N. Gorza, "The Rise of Sunken Ships."
              Per. from English.- L .: Shipbuilding, 1978.-352 p., ill. eleven
              http://vkrymu.net/book.htm
              We read:
              18 May 1928 city three tugs: " Seefalk"," Simeon "and" Pontos ", which belonged to one German company, began to tow the cruiser.

              So here it is our terrible Seelfalke. It turns out that back in 1928 he worked as what he actually was from the moment of construction - tugboat.
              And what is the terrible military support vessel Tarvisio?
              Again a small search on the Internet and we find the book "Battleships of the type" VITTORIO VENETO "from the series" Warships of the world ".
              http://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/1007020/Titushkin_-_Lineynye_korabli_ti


              pa_Vittorio_Veneto.html
              In this book, there is a mention of two tankers, which studied the effectiveness of underwater protection.
              The most characteristic feature of battleships of this type should be considered the well-known constructive underwater protection of the Pugliès system, practiced by the Italians from 1921 to 1931 with field tests on specially converted tankers Brennero andTarvisio»giving very encouraging results.

              So, the terrible Tarvisio turned out to be quite a peaceful tanker.
              Yes, during the war, tankers are supplied with fuel by naval vessels, and a machine gun and even a small cannon can be mounted in tow. But neither a tanker nor a tug themselves are warships. Even if during the war they formally belong to the auxiliary fleet (and during wars in almost all countries of the world civilian vessels were usually requisitioned and became military auxiliary) - it is precisely these that are easiest to pass off as peaceful commercial vessels. By the way, after the war, the Turks recognized that the Italians gave them guarantees that Travisio was an exclusively commercial vessel. I don’t know how, after entering the Black Sea, the Travisio tanker fought with our Black Sea Fleet, the possibly evil and terrible Italian tanker across the sea was chasing our battleship “Paris Commune” (it’s “Sevastopol” from 31.05.1943) - stories about this is unknown. request
              So what's the bottom line? And in the bottom line, we have an old German tug missed in the Black Sea and an Italian tanker not of the first freshness! That's just it. hi
              This is what happens when an opponent, like a hungry dog, pounces on the first bone that comes across. And drags her on public display. I hope this question is now closed once and for all?
              Yeah, no matter how. I am more than sure that in a week some Armenian will write somewhere that the bad Turks did not comply with the Convention and in 1941 missed the German destroyer Seefalke and the Italian cruiser Tarvisio. angry
            5. Bakht
              Bakht 21 March 2016 22: 08
              0
              A bit off topic. I just remembered how in some very "serious" book devoted to the war in the Pacific Ocean, the author confidently wrote that the Japanese had sunk only "the Prince of Wales battle ship and the battle cruiser Repals". Difficulties in translation :-)
            6. Seal
              Seal 21 March 2016 22: 40
              0
              I somehow laughed very much at one dubbed film, where there is an episode when a plane crashes and an American pilot, while talking with his crew about what happened to the plane, periodically broadcasts "Mayday !!! Mayday !!!" " So the dubbing was like this. The conversations of the pilot with the crew in raised voices were interpreted by a male simultaneous interpreter. And when the pilot broadcasts his Mayday, a female synchronized swimmer would step in and say in such a charming, cheerful voice: "May day, May day." And after all, formally everything is correct.
            7. Bakht
              Bakht 21 March 2016 23: 06
              0
              laughing

              This is a classic of the genre. When the radio courses took place, this video was shown to us as a sample

            8. genisis
              genisis 22 March 2016 10: 14
              0
              I would love to spit in your face, you bastard.
              You are a Nazi, a liar and a bastard.
              All the rest of your nonsense spread out on the site is just as false as the abomination against 89SD and Colonel General Gurgen Dalibaltayan.
            9. Seal
              Seal 22 March 2016 17: 32
              0
              Well, that's what I’m talking about. See all !!!
              They stole the victory from the women of the 52nd Riga Guards Rifle Division and brazenly appropriated it to themselves.
              And now this stolen victory, this Nazi does not hesitate to flaunt here.
              But even here, in the Prize sheet, it was not possible to hide the truth.
              Here, I ask everyone to make sure. Written in faded black.
              "As a result of a skillful flanking maneuver, the German fortress in the Humboldt Heine park was blockaded. And its garrison was forced to surrender completely."

              And what do we see from this text? And we see how well, simply by the ears, we tied the 89th Armenian division to the surrender of the garrison of the anti-aircraft complex No. III in Humboldthayn. Flakpaare III Humboldthain).
              But they pulled it in elegantly. To be, so to speak, "clean" and in front of the 52nd Guards Riga SD and in front of other troops who were close and knew how it was. If that - you can always get out, they say:
              But you, what, we do not encroach on the feat of women of the 52nd Guards of Riga. Did we say somewhere in the award sheet that this 89th division stormed and forced the capitulation of the Flakpaare III Humboldthain garrison? No ! We only point out that the 89th Armenian Division is skillfully bypassed The Flakpaare III Humboldthain Anti-aircraft Tower and thereby blocked it. Well, the garrison surrendered, of course, not to the 89th Armenian division, but to the 52nd Riga.

              Damn, well, arrogant !!!
              What does it mean - "blocked" the anti-aircraft tower, located in the park. Humboldt on May 3, 1945, when the Berlin garrison had already surrendered? Yes, the Germans themselves climbed into this anti-aircraft tower, barricaded themselves in it and were not going to break through anywhere. And where could you break through in Berlin on May 3, 1945? And in fact, this anti-aircraft tower itself did not pose any threat to our advancing troops.
              The personnel took refuge in the towers, barricaded the entrances, and attempted to fire attackers from anti-aircraft guns. However, for ground targets 128 mm. the guns could shoot no closer than 8 kilometers because of the inability to lower the trunks below 10 degrees, and the tower had no spotters of fire at the leading edge, which could give target designation. Small-caliber guns were quickly destroyed by the fire of Soviet artillery and tanks, against which small-caliber anti-aircraft guns were powerless.

              But of course it was necessary to force the garrison of this tower to capitulate. What did the translator of the 52nd Guards Riga Zina Stepanova. She talked for almost an hour. About four years of the war, about millions of corpses, about destroyed cities and mutilated fates ...
              History has not preserved her exact words. And now, of course, it’s a pity that nobody wrote this speech, and we don’t know what words were saved by thousands, if not tens of thousands of human lives. Something she told them so that the Germans suddenly obeyed. They conferred quietly among themselves and declared that they accept the offer.
              At 12 o'clock on May 3, 1945, the personnel of the third complex surrendered.

              That's how Armenians lie in everything.
              And you, Mr. Armenian Nazi with the nickname Genisis, are actually the most vile, false Nazi bastard. Yes, and absolutely dumb. Which, as they say, looks in the book, but sees - nevermind.
  • garnik64
    garnik64 21 March 2016 22: 40
    0
    http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/dic_diplomatic/1031/%D0%9F%D0%A0%D0%9E%D0%9B%D0%9
    8% D0% 92% D0% AB Your Turks pissed off the Soviet Union, and therefore did not let it through. I am sure you know the truth, but provoke it.
    1. Bakht
      Bakht 21 March 2016 23: 59
      0
      Quote: genisis
      В 1941-1944 гг. Turkey, contrary to the terms of the convention on the Black Sea Straits, missed through the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus, German and Italian mine loaders, minesweepers, submarines, PLO ships, landing craft and military transports, which were used against the Soviet Black Sea Fleet.


      Quote: garnik64
      Your Turks pissed the Soviet Union, and therefore did not miss.I am sure that you know the truth, but provoke.


      Somehow I got confused. So they missed or did not miss :-) We should decide.
  • garnik64
    garnik64 19 March 2016 11: 30
    0
    Yes, this is a task to reach out to every Russian. Armenians are grateful to the Russian Empire. With the advent of the Bolsheviks, everything turned upside down. The enemy Turkey, which waged 13 wars with Russia, became a friendly country, and you suspect Armenia of treason. Despite arming offensive weapons of the enemies of Armenians and potential enemies of Russia. But we remember the action of Soviet Russia towards Armenia. That is, the transfer of Nagorno-Karabakh, Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan, the territory of the Kara region and the Surmalinsky district, to the Turks. And even if you know about the transfer of Soviet Russia in 1920 Turks, 6 thousand rifles, 5 million rounds, 17600 rounds, more than 200 kg of gold. A year later, 10 million rubles in gold, 33 thousand rifles, 58 million rounds, 327 machine guns, etc. And you doubt us. And if this continues to continue, I am Russophile, I will support the west.
    1. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 19 March 2016 12: 28
      +7
      Yeah, and in 1991 Armenia was overwhelmed by a russophobia. Do you think we do not remember the wave of struggle with Russian culture and Russian schools? Armenia from the Russian Federation is not from a good life - the Janissaries are nearby. If there were no Turks and the problems of Karabakh / Artsakh, you would not have remembered us.

      And the simplest question is: what are the benefits of the Russian Federation from Armenia as an ally?
      1. garnik64
        garnik64 19 March 2016 12: 48
        0
        Armenia and Russia are united by a common enemy, I hope Turkey will not become a friend in some fantastic way. I lived in Armenia since 1990. I don’t have to write the truth. Perhaps there were scum, but only for Western media.
        1. cyber
          cyber 19 March 2016 12: 57
          +6
          Just do not attribute your enemies to Russia! Turkey is now really an enemy, Azerbaijan is not an enemy of Russia today, but a client laughing
          Gratitude of Armenians to Russian can be seen in the Russian Krasnodar Territory in all its glory.
          1. sergo42
            sergo42 19 March 2016 15: 44
            +2
            And not only in the Krasnodar Territory, but throughout Russia
          2. garnik64
            garnik64 19 March 2016 16: 18
            -2
            I live in Krasnodar, please recall (thanks of Armenians to Russians). Regarding Turkey, and tomorrow, friend, then we will wait together on the 14th for the war with Turkey.
            1. cyber
              cyber 19 March 2016 17: 44
              +3
              They give Russians jobs in their stalls, hotels, and shops. They help steer cities in city halls ... keep order in resort towns laughing
              Well, you probably know better - voice it yourself ...
            2. garnik64
              garnik64 19 March 2016 20: 47
              +2
              In 2000, I moved to Krasnodar. And nationalist slogans were just being promoted. Armenians, owners of outlets, shops did not take non-Russians as sellers. Every tenth in the Krasnodar Territory is an Armenian. I came across the newspaper "Top Secret", (on the cover of a skinhead.) The treasury of the Krasnodar Territory accounts for 38% of cash flows from Russians of Armenian origin. So maybe we will work, and not make claims. Do not forget that there were always many Hamshen Armenians on the coast, they were even before the conquest of these places by Russia. And Circassogians lived in Armavir. The Armenians were one of the state-forming peoples of the Byzantine Empire, and it included the coast of the Black Sea.
            3. Seal
              Seal 20 March 2016 21: 24
              0
              Do not forget that there have always been many Hamshen Armenians on the coast, they were even before Russia conquered these places

              Lies. There wasn’t much. Many Armenians were part of the Turkish administration of Anapa Pashalyk. But these Armenians went to Turkey with all the Turks after the transfer of the lands of the Russian Empire.
              Even the Armenians kept the points of purchase of slaves on the coast. But we harshly stopped the slave trade and these Armenians also evacuated to Turkey.
              And in Armavir, the Circassians lived

              Armavir arose from the Armenian (or Circassogai) camp, which settled near our military fortification Durable Trench. The Durable Okop fortress was supposedly built in 1784 according to the plan of Herman von Ferzen, which means that the camp could not have arisen before 1784. As stated on the website of the city of Armavir, Circassian Armenians (there were also those who for so many years the slave trade had become so familiar with the Circassians that they were no longer raids, but constantly lived among the Circassians) in 1836 they turned to the head of the Kuban line, Major General Baron G. F von Zassu asking "to take them under the auspices of Russia and give them the means to settle near the Russians."
              Simply, the Armenians of all in the Caucasus got so much that they drove them from everywhere and beat them severely. And the only salvation for them was to be placed closer to our military camps. What Circassian Armenians did.
              Over time, the Durable Trench, as a military fortification, lost all significance, the troops moved deep into the Caucasus, and the Armenians, who were already deep in the rear of the Russian Empire, remained and began to live, calling their camp Armavir, which soon became a city. And it goes without saying that the Armenians immediately began to compose that it was their land and that they had been living here since prehistoric times.
              The Armenians were one of the state-forming peoples of the Byzantine Empire, and it included the coast of the Black Sea.

              Firstly, the northern coast of the Black Sea has not been part of Byzantium since the 12th century AD.
              Secondly, if on these grounds you want to show us some rights, then why do not you show them to Egypt, which also once was part of Byzantium. And why not present Turkey, which is generally located on the former Byzantine territory.
              And thirdly, do not forget that the Byzantines themselves drove you, Armenians, from the territory of Byzantium, after you decided that the Latin knights of the Crusaders were stronger and joined them, betraying the Greeks. Have you forgotten how the Bulgarians, Greeks, and Polovtsy slaughtered the Armenian cavalry detachment, which you detached to help the first Latin emperor Baldwin in his campaign against Bulgaria in 1205? And how then the Nicene Greeks slaughtered 20 thousand already peaceful Armenians at Adramittia?
              The Franks were expecting the emperor’s brother. The brother of the emperor Henry rushed to Constantinople from distant Adramitti, eagerly awaited by all; on the way, he reluctantly left to the mercy of fate 20 Asia Minor Armenians, who linked their fate with the Franks to their misfortune: the Greeks cut the unfortunate.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Seal
          Seal 20 March 2016 20: 53
          0
          Yes, type in any search phrase: "an Armenian or a native of Armenia raped, stabbed, killed, stole, crushed" and so on and more, do not ask stupid questions. Are you a Russophile ?? In this case, one can say only one thing: "Lord, save Russia from such friends, and we will deal with the enemies ourselves."
          Scorched eyes of "Miss Charm Sochi" Eleanor Kondratyuk remember? And how, after that, your whole diaspora hid Grigoryan, who was hid already in a timber industry enterprise owned by an Armenian in Karelia. After these games of hide and seek, the Sochi police had to be heavily cleaned up.
          Do you remember the bombings in Moscow in 1977 and in the Moscow metro in particular? Only according to official data, during the explosion in the subway (the first explosion in the world in the subways), EIGHT innocent Muscovites died. And about 20 were injured.
          Do you remember the five of our paratroopers shot by Armenians in the center of Gyumri (then Leninakan) in July 1992?

          And tell me, a resident of the Krasnodar Territory. How did it happen that the Armenians own more than half of the land on the Black Sea coast? After all, it’s not you who fought with the Circassians, but we !!!
          And now the Circassians are very offended and say that you Russians did not do well. You won us in fair battles, not the Armenians. And we recognized that you are stronger. But we never recognized and do not recognize the stronger Armenians. And you gave our land to the Armenians. Not good !!!
      2. 3MGK
        3MGK 20 March 2016 00: 41
        +1
        You yourself, of course, know better, I only remember in January 1990, when the Azerbaijanis finished the Armenians and switched to Russians. And the Shamkhor of 1918 can be remembered, and the fact that before 1917 there were more Russians in Baku than the Az., And now?
        1. Seal
          Seal 20 March 2016 21: 28
          0
          And the 1918 Chamhor can be remembered

          Let's see where the legs grow from? And they grow from the article by I. Stalin “Counter-revolutionaries of the Transcaucasus under the guise of socialism” published in the newspaper Pravda No. 55 and 56; March 26 and 27, 1918
          “We declare that among the culprits of the Elizabethan events, the former leader of the Caucasian Social Democracy, now the so-called“ father of the Georgian nation ”—Noy Nikolaevich Zhordania, should be named. It was under his chairmanship that the presidium of the regional center decided to disarm passing trains and arm national regiments at their expense. A telegram was sent under his signature to the Elizabeth Muslim Muslim National Committee on the disarmament of echelons that had accumulated near Shamkhor. He, Noah Jordania, sent delegations from Tiflis with the same order to disarm the echelons. This was officially stated by a member of the delegation as a soldier Krupko at a crowded meeting of the Civil Committee in Elizavetpol. Noah Zhordania and his always assiduous assistant N. Ramishvili sent an armored train led by Abkhazava, who distributed weapons to Muslims and helped them shoot thousands of soldiers and disarm trains.
          Noah Jordania is justified by the fact that he did not sign telegrams. Dozens of people, Armenians and Muslims, claim that the telegram is signed by him and that this telegram exists. Zhordania said that he, having learned about the complications, spoke with Abkhazava by telephone, asking him not to disarm the echelons by force and let them in. Abkhazava is killed; this statement cannot be verified, but we admit that the conversation was ...
          If you leave the dead, to whom, according to the proverb, you can blame everything, there are living witnesses who refute the testimony of Jordan and confirm both the address of the telegram and the signature of Jordan and the sending of the delegation with the order to disarm, etc.
          Why does Jordan not hold them accountable if they tell a lie? Why does he and his friends want to “hush up the case”? . "... No, citizens of Zhordania, Ramishvili and KO, you have a heavy responsibility for the blood of thousands of soldiers killed on January 7-12. Can you justify this felony? But we are not talking about personal justification. In this case, Jordan interests us not as a person, but as the leader of a party making politics in the Transcaucasus, as the most authoritative and responsible representative of the Transcaucasian government. He did his criminal case, firstly, by order of the Presidium of the regional center and the Interethnic Council and, secondly, undoubtedly, with the knowledge of the Transcaucasian Commissariat. The accusation that we throw in the face of Jordan extends to the entire party of the Mensheviks, to the regional center, to the Transcaucasian Commissariat, where the states of Chkhenkeli and Gegechkori, in a close and open bloc with Muslim beks and khans, are doing everything to ruin the revolution. We are talking about Zhordania and Ramishvili, because their names are associated with telegrams, with orders, sending a “robber” armored train. From them, an investigation should be started to clarify the truth. But there are still names that need to be named, there is another nest of criminals that needs to be swept away ...

          After I.V. Stalin rode through the Georgian Mensheviks, then he went on to accuse the Musavatists.
        2. Seal
          Seal 20 March 2016 21: 29
          0
          So, I. Stalin in his article “Counter-revolutionaries of Transcaucasia under the guise of socialism” published in the newspaper Pravda No. 55 and 56; dated March 26 and 27, 1918, decided to cite (or the editorial board of Pravda decided to cite) excerpts from Baku newspapers.
          So again we must return to the Baku newspapers and to the number of victims indicated in these newspapers.
          And we again returned from where we started. Yes, the Baku newspapers wrote all kinds of horror films. But let's look at the testimony of the pilot Alexander Ter-Martirosov, who saw everything from above with his own eyes: “There are 7 trains with troops on the railway to Akstafa. Closer to Astafa and Shamkhor are fighting. In the villages closest to the railway, there are fires. There are many burnt and broken wagons at stations and half-stations. All around are fragments of them. Part of the paths dismantled. Some cars continue to burn. One can see many corpses and traces of robbery ... ”
          Which is characteristic. Character selectivity. Why do current Armenians prefer to look at the situation with the eyes of the editors of Baku newspapers, rather than with the eyes of their compatriot Ter-Martirosov? And this is not the first time. It was already: “The Turks are the most deceitful people in the world, but the Turkish tribunal 1919-1920. - the most truthful tribunal in the world. ”
          So why such selectivity? Most likely because Ter-Martirosov simply honestly stated: “the cars continue to burn. One can see many corpses and traces of robbery ... ”, but did not indicate that there are many corpses of refugees and Russian soldiers. Again. The observer pilot, an Armenian by nationality, indicated that “corpses” were visible to him from above. Why do we have to agree that among these corpses there was not a single corpse from among the attacking fighters of the Georgian national regiment or the Musavat division? Just because subsequently obviously for political reasons, did I.V. Stalin refer to the newspapers? But we all know how freely I. Stalin handles numbers. For example: “During the six weeks of the war, Nazi Germany lost over 1 ½ million German soldiers killed, wounded and captured.”
          Judging from this expression, which is given in the article of I. Stalin: “Abkhazava is killed; this statement cannot be verified .. ”- the commander of the Georgian armored train was killed. And if the commander of the Georgian armored train, Captain Abkhazava, was killed, it means that in Shamkhor there really was not disarmament and beating of soldiers, but there was a battle, and this battle was serious.
          Since commanders of armored trains do not go on the attack.
        3. Seal
          Seal 20 March 2016 21: 30
          +1
          . Rather, this witness has the greatest share of truth:
          The historian V.P. Buldakov describes what happened according to the materials of the commission of inquiry: “The Russian troops leaving the front left part of the weapon for the Armenians, who were compelled to think more about the danger of the Turkish invasion. This unnerved the Azerbaijanis. January 9 (new style) 1918 at the station Shamkhor one of the military echelons was stopped detachment with an armored train Transcaucasian Regional Council. Within two days, while negotiations were underway, thousands of Azerbaijani peasants, counting on their share of arms, gathered on the one hand, and on the other three more military echelons. The shooting began, one of the shells landed in a huge tank of oil. Burning oil poured into the lowland, where the Azerbaijanis settled with their carts. Soon several more fuel tanks exploded, after which the flame swept over part of the cars, including in the oncoming passenger train, following to Tiflis. “The number of those killed and burned alive on either side could not be counted, but the victims were in the thousands.”
          As pilot Ter-Martirosov saw from the air.

          So another legend was dispelled, which the Armenians persistently promote.

          By the way, the composition of the Transcaucasian Commissariat, which gave the order to disarm our echelons.
          • E.P. Gegechkori - Chairman and Commissioner for the Ministry of Labor and Foreign Affairs, Menshevik
          • A. I. Chkhenkeli - Commissar of the Interior, Menshevik
          • D. D. Donskoy - commissar of the military and naval, SR
          • H. O. Karchikyan - Commissioner of Finance, Dashnaktsutyun
          • F.-H. Khoysky - Commissar of Public Education, Musavat
          • Sh. V. Alekseev-Meskhiev - Commissioner of Justice, Socialist Federalist
          • M. Yu. Jafarov - Commissioner of Trade and Industry, Musavat
          • H. A. Melik-Aslanov - Commissioner of Railways, Musavat
          • A. V. Neruchev - Commissioner of Agriculture and State Property and Religions, Social Revolutionary
          • G. Ter-Ghazaryan - Food Commissioner, “Dashnaktsutyun”
          • A. I. Oganjanyan - Commissioner of Charity, “Dashnaktsutyun”
          • H. Khasmamedov - Commissioner of Control, Musavat

          Of 12 people, 3 are Armenian!
          And what kind of company was gathered there: Mensheviks, Dashnaks, Musavatists - it’s nice to see it expensive. hi
        4. Seal
          Seal 20 March 2016 21: 31
          0
          Moreover, the main monetary post is understandable among Armenians. Peace to the world - to Armenians - money.
          This means that the order was also given to the Armenians to stop our trains.
          But were the Armenians among those who stopped the trains? Most likely WERE !!!
          We look at whom the Transcaucasian Commissariat sent to disarm the echelons.
          1. The main force is an armored train led by Abkhazava. THIS IS A GEORGIAN armored train.
          2. The Musavat statistics division (well, though the division didn’t pull on the regiment, but, nevertheless, it goes everywhere like a “division”).
          3. Georgian regiment.

          Well, it’s clear that the Armenians were hardly in the Musavat division, but what about the Armenians in the Georgian armored train and in the Georgian national regiment?

          In the magazine “Karabakh 88” we read the article by V. Sargsyan “SAMTSKHE-JAVAHK and NORTH LORI: how to lose their homeland ...” and we come across paragraph 12
          “... It is noteworthy that in 1917, during the nationalization of the army in Transcaucasia, the Armenians of Sgnakh or Gori were called up to the Georgian regiments, and the Armenians of Akhalkalak and Borchalu (North Lori) were called up only to the Armenian regiments ((9) 1928, April 28, . 89.) ... "
          So, we fix that it is written in black and white that: "..in 1917, the ARMENIANS of Sgnakh or Gori were called up to the Georgian regiments ...".

          So, most likely (possibly), the Armenians were in the Georgian regiment.
          That is, our echelons on the orders of the Transcaucasian Commissariat, in which almost 40% were Armenians, were disarmed by the Azerbaijanis (the Musavat division and the coming peasants, who most likely almost all died), the Georgians (the armored train and the Georgian regiment) and the Armenians (who served in these Georgian formations).

          The term “Shamhor massacre” roams the Internet. And as I understand it, it wanders solely from the submission of the masters of the Armenians. And what turned out? That in Shamkhor there was not at all a spontaneous attack by some unknown “Azerbaijani bandits” on trains with returning Russian soldiers. And there was a purposeful military operation of the Transcaucasian Commissariat for the disarmament of the echelons of our soldiers. That they participated in it on the orders of the Transcaucasian Commissariat, in which 40% were Armenians - and the Musavatists (the Musavat division, though it is still not clear how many soldiers were in it - 1000 people or 100 people), and the Georgian national regiment and Georgian armored trains. It turned out that in order to stop the trains - the units of the Transcaucasian Commissariat simply dismantled the railroad tracks. What was a FIGHT. As a result of which a number of our soldiers were killed and wounded. But hardly there were a lot of them. In any case, not 5 thousand and not 2 thousand. Perhaps several hundred dead and wounded. This is also a lot. But we must assume that our front-line soldiers didn’t give up their lives and were injured. Unfortunately, the loss of troops of the Transcaucasian Commissariat is not reported anywhere. I believe that they were at least NOT LESS THAN ours. And considering that even the commander of the Georgian armored train was killed ... and by the way, where did this Georgian armored train go in that battle? What about him is no longer visible and not heard? Didn’t our soldiers go home on it ??
          And who suffered the main losses here? I believe that these categories. We read again: “Burning oil poured into the lowland where the Azerbaijanis settled with their carts. Soon several more fuel tanks exploded, after which the flame covered a part of the wagons, including in the oncoming passenger train that was heading to Tiflis ... ” That is, the main victims were the Azerbaijani peasants who arrived to rob the trains and the passengers of the oncoming train to Tiflis.

          Like this. If you take any conventional assertion, the Armenian statement - then upon careful consideration it turns into .. in general, it appears in a completely different form than today's Armenians and their predecessors fantasized about falsifying history.
          That's it, gentlemen, Armenians. Everywhere you look - FALSE everywhere
        5. genisis
          genisis 21 March 2016 12: 05
          +1
          Everywhere you look - FALSE everywhere

          That is, our echelons by order of the Transcaucasian Commissioner, in which almost 40% were ARMENIANS

          Of 12 people - 3 - Armenian


          3 out of 12 is 25%
          Well, think about it, I'll say "almost 40%", it will sound more significant

          And so everywhere
        6. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 13: 23
          -1
          3 out of 12 is 25%
          Well, think about it, I'll say "almost 40%", it will sound more significant

          Thanks. I wanted to write "a quarter" was distracted. Fixed in other places.
          More, as I understand it, you have nothing to complain about?
          Then what does your this mean
          And so everywhere


          Here I can give a sufficient number of examples of Armenian lies.
          About how you are lying about some Armenian gunners who allegedly refused to shoot at the advancing troops of Ivan the Terrible and for this allegedly accepted martyrdom.
          http://sobesednikarmenii.ru/index.php/diaspora/82968-puteshestvie-v-istoriyu-arm
          yanskoj-moskvy
          Oh, and here http://www.nt.am/ru/news/168504/
          your sci-fi
          Then the Armenian gunners were tied to cannons with iron chains, and a soldier with drawn swords was placed behind.


          About how you brazenly stole a victory from the 52nd Riga Guards Rifle Division, having appropriated the capture of the Anti-aircraft Tower in the Humboldhain Park in Berlin your 89th division.

          http://janarmenian.ru/news/26544.html

          The 89th Armenian Taman three-time-bearing rifle division, the only one of all national formations, took part in the Sturm of Berlin and defeated a strong garrison, which had strengthened in the center of the capital, in Humboldt-Hein. For this operation, the division was awarded the Order of Kutuzov II degree.


          About how you brazenly call an accomplice of the Germans to drag Turkey into World War I, Andranik is either a Russian general or a general of the Russian service ..
          https://democrator.ru/petition/pomogite-spasti-pamyatnik-generalu-russkoj-armii/

          Although he was not even the ensign of our army.
        7. genisis
          genisis 21 March 2016 13: 42
          +1
          http://www.pobeda1945.su/division/4543

          I read about 89 division here

          "The division took part in the storming of Berlin, and defeated a strong garrison, fortified in the center of the capital, in Humboldt-Hein. For this operation, the division was awarded the Order of Kutuzov, II degree."

          Given your love of historical documents, it is enough to find a prize sheet where it will be written, for which all the same the 89th was awarded the Order of Kutuzov.
          And then you have again -
          you brazenly stole a victory from the 52nd Riga Guards Rifle Division


          So return her victory to the 52nd Riga Guard SD
        8. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 15: 38
          0
          Quote: genisis
          So return her victory to the 52nd Riga Guard SD

          I’m returning. Here the Armenians write about their 89th Taman Rifle Division.
          And not just anybody who writes, but a whole Armenian general - Colonel Gurgen Dalibaltayan.

          http://janarmenian.ru/news/26544.html

          The 89th Armenian Taman three-time-bearing rifle division, the only one of all national formations, took part in the Sturm of Berlin and defeated a strong garrison, which had strengthened in the center of the capital, in Humboldt-Hein. For this operation, the division was awarded the Order of Kutuzov II degree.


          It would seem that one could not believe the whole Armenian colonel general !!!

          But no, we already know that:
          a) the 89th division did not have the word "Armenian" in its name
          b) that it was far from the only one of the national formations that took part in the Sturm of Berlin.
          So let's see, maybe this Armenian colonel general also lied in this that the 89th division:
          c) defeated a strong garrison, fortified in the center of the capital, in Humboldt Heine

          We are making some efforts to find and find a VERY INTERESTING MATERIAL! There he is !!

          http://regnews.ru/politics/zhenshchiny-voyna-8-marta-583/

          But the most “female” feat of the Great Patriotic War belongs, perhaps, to the lieutenant Zinaida Petrovna Stepanova-Serova, translator of the intelligence department of the 52nd Guards Rifle Division of the Guard. Young Muscovite, student of the Moscow State Pedagogical Institute of Foreign Languages. Maurice Thorez reached Berlin a respected soldier, one of the best in the reconnaissance division. During the war she was repeatedly awarded and noted by the command. And, probably, she didn’t even realize that the main feat was waiting for her at the very end of the war.
          May 2, 1945 it became known that the Berlin garrison capitulated, his commandant surrendered. However, the battle continued on the site of the Riga division in the area of ​​the Humboldthein park. The group of Germans surrounded there occupied an advantageous and well-fortified position on a hill (now it is called the "Humboldthein Heights"). And their armament had almost everything that could be imagined in such circumstances: anti-aircraft towers, trenches, multi-storey cellars, pillboxes with circular embrasures.
          And most importantly - there were many German soldiers and officers outside the walls of the fortress, who firmly decided to fight to the end. All random people such as Volkssturm and forcibly mobilized in the Wehrmacht by that time had already fled. There were mainly two types of people left in Humboldtain: ideological patriots who decided to die with the Reich, and SS men. The latter understood very well that they could not live in Soviet captivity, and they did not see any reason to give up. And so they fought zealously, repulsing the attack after attack, which cost us time after time the lives and lives of soldiers ...
          And then the reconnaissance translator Stepanova decided on an almost suicidal step - she volunteered to speak with the surrounded Germans. Together with Lt. Col. Popov and radio operator Kalmykov, she drove right under heavy fire to the northern fortress of Humboldthein. And all three stood there, mortally risking, until on the tower they noticed their white, parliamentary flag.
          When, finally, they managed to get into the underground bunker - the headquarters of the fortress, the two generals listened without interest to the proposal and refused to stop the resistance. And at the same time they reported that they decided to shoot the parliamentarians.

          Continued below
        9. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 15: 42
          0
          Part 2
          And here the translator Zina Stepanova accomplished her feat. She talked for almost an hour. About four years of the war, about millions of corpses, about destroyed cities and mutilated fates ...
          - We killed each other for four years, but today - the war is over! Ended up, understand? There is no more reason to fight, not one. Enough to kill each other already, stop doing this madness, ”she didn’t say, the woman screamed in the face of the men.
          History has not preserved her exact words. And now, of course, it’s a pity that nobody wrote this speech, and we don’t know what words were saved by thousands, if not tens of thousands of human lives. Something she told them so that the Germans suddenly obeyed. They conferred quietly among themselves and declared that they accept the offer.
          On that day, about 52 German soldiers and officers surrendered to the 7000nd Riga Division. Who would have perished all and at least the same (and, most likely, 3-5 times more) of the Red Army soldiers were taken with them, if one Russian woman did not manage to convey to two years of war men such simple, but so difficult for them words: the war is over "


          So who to believe? To the Armenian Colonel-General or to the material posted on the website "Milestones of Victory: the most feminine feat of the Great Patriotic War, or Why March 8 was not celebrated at the front."

          We look where more specifics.
          Here in the description of the hostilities of the 52nd Riga Division there is a HUGE MASS OF CONCRETE about taking this anti-aircraft tower.

          But in the description of the hostilities of the 89th (Armenian) division, there are no specific details at all. Only a standard set of phrases is given, such as "the 89th division defeated a strong garrison fortified in the center of the capital, in Humboldt-Heine."

          Therefore, I personally trust much more concrete, abundant with the smallest details, testimony of veterans of the 52nd Riga Division, rather than Armenian stories absolutely not containing any specifics and examples.

          It turns out that Colonel General Gurgen Dalibaltayan lied!

          Well, the Armenians are replicating this lie in thousands of their sites, from where it spreads to tens of thousands of non-Armenian sites.

          So, the feat was accomplished by the women of the 52nd Riga Division, and the Armenians appropriated the glory of this feat. This is how they, Armenians "heroes", do not have their feats, so they stole the victory from women!
        10. genisis
          genisis 21 March 2016 15: 49
          0
          So who to believe?


          Yes, believe who you want

          Find the award sheet and read

        11. Seal
          Seal 22 March 2016 18: 09
          0
          Divisions are awarded with decrees, not award sheets. In the award sheets they could write and wrote anything. And the higher award departments had to carefully check everything. And out of 10 award sheets, God forbid half was satisfied.
      3. Bakht
        Bakht 22 March 2016 01: 14
        0
        If you can, then accept my five cents. I am not strong in documents, and even more so to this day I have not been very interested in the military way of each division of the Red Army. But your polemic pushed me to search in literature.

        What is being revealed? The Humboldt Heine district was one of the most fortified in Berlin. There was a third air defense tower and bomb shelter for civilians. It accommodated up to 18 people. During the advance of the 000rd Shock Army, this region fell into the strip of the 3th Guards Corps consisting of the 39th Guards, 52th Infantry and 64th Infantry Divisions. I give the names as given in the directory. In life, I can’t believe that one division took such a fortified area, moreover, after bloody battles. The navel would break.

        So it is quite possible that all three divisions took this air defense tower together. It is best to record this feat at the expense of the entire 39th GVSK. Judging by the documents, the fortress was not taken by storm, but indeed the garrison capitulated. Isaev cites data that the number of prisoners was insignificant and suddenly after April 28 the army reported 20 prisoners immediately.

        So the feat was collective. Like the whole war, by the way.
      4. genisis
        genisis 22 March 2016 10: 50
        0
        Bakhtiyar, I took your five cents.
        Read the award sheet, which I found on the site is a feat of the people.
        I admit honestly, I did not look who else was awarded for the assault on the HUMBOLZHINE park.
        I don’t know what data Isaev provides, according to the award list, the division coped with the task within 4 days of fighting.
        5128 Fritz surrendered.
        From other award sheets it follows that many fighters were awarded for the assault from 01/05/1945 to 04/05/1945
      5. genisis
        genisis 22 March 2016 11: 04
        0
        Here is the award sheet of the Hero of the Soviet Union, Major General Kozin Nester Dmitrievich, commander of the 52 Guards SD
      6. genisis
        genisis 22 March 2016 11: 06
        0
        In the award sheet, the assault on the HUMBOLTSHEIN park is not mentioned.
      7. Seal
        Seal 22 March 2016 18: 37
        0
        Damn, but the number doesn’t mean anything? Award sheet dated May 3, 1945. And combat reports of combat work over the past day from units to higher headquarters arrive in the evening. The garrison of anti-aircraft complex No. III in Humboldthain (Flakpaare III Humboldthain) capitulated on May 3, 1945 at 12-00.
        http://www.saper.etel.ru/fort/zenit-basni-berlin.html
        A report on this to the higher headquarters would have arrived no earlier than 20-00 03.05.1945/XNUMX/XNUMX
        By this time, the award sheet has already been signed.
        And actually, and what could be included in the award list of Major General Kozin Nester Dmitrievich, commander of the 52 Guards SD? What did his scout persuade the garrison of anti-aircraft complex No. III in Humboldthein to surrender without a fight? So this feat is a personal feat of a reconnaissance scout, not a division commander.
        Unlike you, we do not confuse state wool with personal wool.
  • Bakht
    Bakht 22 March 2016 17: 28
    +1
    These award sheets only confuse the matter. According to all documents, these divisions were part of the 39th GVSK. And the signatures are different and the case numbers are different. For the 89th division it is 39th corps, and for the 52nd it is 12th GVSK

    What is it all about? If about the third air defense tower in Humboldtheim, then it was stormed by 12 GvSK. There was no 89th division. It is necessary to carefully look at the composition of the case. According to Wikipedia, this is complete nonsense. So you can’t focus on it.

    If we are talking about the same object, then this is the 52nd division.
  • Bakht
    Bakht 22 March 2016 17: 35
    0
    During the assault on Berlin, the command post of the defense sector of the city "G" under the command of Oberst Schaefer was located in the combat tower of the complex. The third anti-aircraft complex blocked part of the Soviet 12th Guards Corps. The personnel took refuge in the towers, barricaded the entrances, and attempted to fire attackers from anti-aircraft guns. However, for ground targets 128 mm. the guns could shoot no closer than 8 kilometers because of the inability to lower the trunks below 10 degrees, and the tower had no spotters of fire at the leading edge, which could give target designation. Small-caliber guns were quickly destroyed by the fire of Soviet artillery and tanks, against which small-caliber anti-aircraft guns were powerless.
    After the general surrender of Berlin at 12:3 on May 1945, XNUMX, the personnel of the third complex surrendered.

    http://www.saper.etel.ru/fort/zenit-basni-berlin.html
    Major General Filatov Alexander Alekseevich commanded the 12th GVSK (30.04.1945/09.05.1945/XNUMX - XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX)
    http://samsv.narod.ru/Korp/Sk/gvsk012/default.html
    Which is fully consistent with the award sheet. So the 52nd division was directly related to the assault on this fortified area.
  • Seal
    Seal 22 March 2016 18: 02
    0
    The 89th Taman Rifle Division was part of
    38 Rifle Corps, which in turn was part of the 3rd Shock Army. The 38th Rifle Corps was not guards.

    From my answer to Genis.
    Iditotooo !!!
    I wrote to you in Russian that in the Decree on awarding the 89th Rifle Division with the Order of Kutuzov nothing was said about Humbolt Jaime. And there really is nothing said. For the Decree on the rewarding of an entire division is a state act verified in all respects. And not personal award sheets, which were composed in a multitude.

    And you, write that
    The 89th Armenian Taman three-time-bearing rifle division, the only one of all national formations, took part in the Sturm of Berlin and defeated a strong garrison, which had strengthened in the center of the capital, in Humboldt-Hein. For this operation, the division was awarded the Order of Kutuzov II degree.


    The 89th Armenian division of the anti-aircraft tower garrison did not smash. This is even seen from the award sheet on Safaryan.
    Where it is written in Russian that the 89th division, led by him, bypassed the German fortress in the Humbolt Jaime park.

    I, unlike this ragged man, before writing, shoveled the mass of combat reports of the 38th Corps. And the corps itself mainly (except for the 52nd Riga) was in reserve, and the 89th division was in reserve. The combat reports mention the parts that are in contact with the enemy. If the unit is not mentioned in the combat report, this means that this military unit has no contact with the enemy. Well, in those days, there were no references to the 3th division in the fighting 89rd strike army.
  • genisis
    genisis 23 March 2016 12: 34
    0
    It's about storming a fortress in HUMBOLZHEIN park
    In the award order it never occurred to anyone to divide it into towers and so on.

    Here is an excerpt from the scout award order 9th battery 531 ap 89 sd for actions before the assault fortresses in the park HUMBOLZHEIN

    The same order for the storming of the fortress in the HUMBOLZHEIN park awarded several more people.
    The commander of the 531th artillery regiment, Major Matveyev, in the order does not divide the fortress into towers and minarets, but simply writes "a fortress in the HUMBOLTSHINE park"

    531 artillery regiment of the 89th infantry division of the 33rd Army of the 1st Belorussian Front
  • Seal
    Seal 22 March 2016 17: 35
    0
    Well, that's what I’m talking about. See all !!!
    They stole the victory from the women of the 52nd Riga Guards Rifle Division and brazenly appropriated it to themselves.
    And now this stolen victory, this Nazi does not hesitate to flaunt here.
    But even here, in the Prize sheet, it was not possible to hide the truth.
    Here, I ask everyone to make sure. Written in faded black.
    "As a result of a skillful flanking maneuver, the German fortress in the Humboldt Heine park was blockaded. And its garrison was forced to surrender completely."

    And what do we see from this text? And we see how well, simply by the ears, we tied the 89th Armenian division to the surrender of the garrison of the anti-aircraft complex No. III in Humboldthayn. Flakpaare III Humboldthain).
    But they pulled it in elegantly. To be, so to speak, "clean" and in front of the 52nd Guards Riga SD and in front of other troops who were close and knew how it was. If that - you can always get out, they say:
    But you, what, we do not encroach on the feat of women of the 52nd Guards of Riga. Did we say somewhere in the award sheet that this 89th division stormed and forced the capitulation of the Flakpaare III Humboldthain garrison? No ! We only point out that the 89th Armenian Division is skillfully bypassed The Flakpaare III Humboldthain Anti-aircraft Tower and thereby blocked it. Well, the garrison surrendered, of course, not to the 89th Armenian division, but to the 52nd Riga.

    Damn, well, arrogant !!!
    What does it mean - "blocked" the anti-aircraft tower, located in the park. Humboldt on May 3, 1945, when the Berlin garrison had already surrendered? Yes, the Germans themselves climbed into this anti-aircraft tower, barricaded themselves in it and were not going to break through anywhere. And where could you break through in Berlin on May 3, 1945? And in fact, this anti-aircraft tower itself did not pose any threat to our advancing troops.
    The personnel took refuge in the towers, barricaded the entrances, and attempted to fire attackers from anti-aircraft guns. However, for ground targets 128 mm. the guns could shoot no closer than 8 kilometers because of the inability to lower the trunks below 10 degrees, and the tower had no spotters of fire at the leading edge, which could give target designation. Small-caliber guns were quickly destroyed by the fire of Soviet artillery and tanks, against which small-caliber anti-aircraft guns were powerless.

    But of course it was necessary to force the garrison of this tower to capitulate. What did the translator of the 52nd Guards Riga Zina Stepanova. She talked for almost an hour. About four years of the war, about millions of corpses, about destroyed cities and mutilated fates ...
    History has not preserved her exact words. And now, of course, it’s a pity that nobody wrote this speech, and we don’t know what words were saved by thousands, if not tens of thousands of human lives. Something she told them so that the Germans suddenly obeyed. They conferred quietly among themselves and declared that they accept the offer.
    At 12 o'clock on May 3, 1945, the personnel of the third complex surrendered.

    That's how Armenians lie in everything.
    And you, Mr. Armenian Nazi with the nickname Genisis, are actually the most vile, false Nazi bastard. Yes, and absolutely dumb. Which, as they say, looks in the book, but sees - nevermind.
  • Bakht
    Bakht 22 March 2016 18: 12
    0
    I made a mistake with the case number. It was hard to see on a copy of the order. This is the 38th building. And not even the guard. Indeed, Lieutenant General Tereshkov Aleksey Dmitrievich commanded. Nothing about anywhere in the assault Humboldheim did not find anything.

    During the storming of Berlin, the commander of the 3rd shock alternated divisions. And in a day he brought one to the second echelon. Judging by what they write in various sources, the 52nd division took an active part there. Wikipedia cannot be trusted. These are all free articles. The composition of the buildings was constantly changing. The award list for Commander 52 was signed by the commander of the 12th GVSK, and as of May 1, there was no member of the 12th Corps of the 52nd Division. She is part of the 38th building. Well, how could the corps commander write a performance for the commander of a foreign division?

    All this is a matter of specialists, not amateurs. It is a fact that the fortified area was not taken, and the garrison surrendered.
  • Seal
    Seal 22 March 2016 17: 47
    +1
    Iditotooo !!! A moronic nazi idiotoo!
    I wrote to you in Russian that in the Decree on awarding the 89th Rifle Division with the Order of Kutuzov nothing was said about Humbolt Jaime. And there really is nothing said. For the Decree on the rewarding of an entire division is a state act verified in all respects. And not personal award sheets, which were composed in a multitude.
    And you, Armenians, write that
    The 89th Armenian Taman three-time-bearing rifle division, the only one of all national formations, took part in the Sturm of Berlin and defeated a strong garrison, which had strengthened in the center of the capital, in Humboldt-Hein. For this operation, the division was awarded the Order of Kutuzov II degree.


    The 89th Armenian division of the anti-aircraft tower garrison did not smash. This is even seen from the award sheet on Safaryan.
    Where it is written in Russian that the 89th division, led by him, bypassed the German fortress in the Humbolt Jaime park.
  • Seal
    Seal 22 March 2016 18: 22
    -1
    They stole the victory from the women of the 52nd Riga Guards Rifle Division and brazenly appropriated it to themselves.
    And now this stolen victory, this Nazi does not hesitate to flaunt here.
    But even here, in the Prize sheet, it was not possible to hide the truth.
    Here, please make sure. Written in faded black.
    "As a result of the skillful workaround the German fortress in the Humboldt Heine park was blockaded. And her garrison was forced to surrender completely. "


    And what do we see from this text? And we see how well, simply by the ears, we tied the 89th Armenian division to the surrender of the garrison of the anti-aircraft complex No. III in Humboldthayn. Flakpaare III Humboldthain).
    But they pulled it in elegantly. To be, so to speak, "clean" and in front of the 52nd Guards Riga SD and in front of other troops who were close and knew how it was. If that - you can always get out, they say:
    But you, what, we do not encroach on the feat of women of the 52nd Guards of Riga. Did we say somewhere in the award sheet that this 89th division stormed and forced the capitulation of the Flakpaare III Humboldthain garrison? No ! We only indicate that the 89th Armenian Division skillfully walked around The Flakpaare III Humboldthain Anti-aircraft Tower and thereby blocked it. Well, the garrison surrendered, of course, not to the 89th Armenian division, but to the 52nd Riga.


    Damn, well, arrogant !!!
    What does it mean - "blocked" the anti-aircraft tower, located in the park. Humboldt on May 3, 1945, when the Berlin garrison had already surrendered? Yes, the Germans themselves climbed into this anti-aircraft tower, barricaded themselves in it and were not going to break through anywhere. And where could you break through in Berlin on May 3, 1945? And in fact, this anti-aircraft tower itself did not pose any threat to our advancing troops.
    The personnel took refuge in the towers, barricaded the entrances, and attempted to fire attackers from anti-aircraft guns. However, for ground targets 128 mm. the guns could shoot no closer than 8 kilometers because of the inability to lower the trunks below 10 degrees, and the tower had no spotters of fire at the leading edge, which could give target designation. Small-caliber guns were quickly destroyed by the fire of Soviet artillery and tanks, against which small-caliber anti-aircraft guns were powerless.


    But of course it was necessary to force the garrison of this tower to capitulate. What did the translator of the 52nd Guards Riga Zina Stepanova.
    She talked for almost an hour. About four years of the war, about millions of corpses, about destroyed cities and mutilated fates ...
    History has not preserved her exact words. And now, of course, it’s a pity that nobody wrote this speech, and we don’t know what words were saved by thousands, if not tens of thousands of human lives. Something she told them so that the Germans suddenly obeyed. They conferred quietly among themselves and declared that they accept the offer.

    At 12 o'clock on May 3, 1945, the personnel of the third complex surrendered.

    That's how Armenians lie in everything.
    And you, Mr. Armenian Nazi with the nickname Genisis, are actually the most vile, false Nazi bastard. Yes, and absolutely dumb. Which, as they say, looks in the book, but sees - nevermind.
  • genisis
    genisis 22 March 2016 18: 57
    +1
    Here is the award sheet of Stepanova Zinaida
    And you can go to yug
  • Seal
    Seal 22 March 2016 20: 11
    -1
    What isn’t like that again? What, all the same, May 2, and not May 3? Well, this absolutely does not play any role.
    I said that we do not confuse personal wool with the state. Even if when drawing up the award sheet for Major General N. Kozin Since the capture of the Flakpaare III Humboldthain garrison was already known, this episode could not enter the general's award sheet. Since it was a personal feat of the translator-reconnaissance Z.P. Stepanova.
    Our generals, unlike you, do not steal the feats of others and ascribe to themselves. Well, at least Major General N.D. Kozin did not steal and ascribe to himself someone else's. Moreover, he has his merits above the roof.

    The main thing is that even now you hope to be convinced that the 89th division did not destroy the strong garrison, which strengthened in the center of the capital, in Humboldt-Heine. And the division was awarded the Order of Kutuzov, II degree, not for this operation at all.
    And the garrison captured Z.P. STEPANOVA from the 52nd Guards Riga Division.
    http://podvignaroda.mil.ru/?#id=42751408&tab=navDetailDocument

    So if you still have at least some remnants of what normal people call "conscience", then remove from your sites false information that
    The 89th Armenian Taman three-time-bearing rifle division, the only one of all national formations, took part in the Sturm of Berlin and defeated a strong garrison, which had strengthened in the center of the capital, in Humboldt-Hein. For this operation, the division was awarded the Order of Kutuzov II degree.

    and return the well-deserved feat to the one who committed it - the Guard to Senior Lieutenant Stepanova (Serova)
    Zinaide Petrovna from the 52nd Guards Riga Rifle Division.
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  • genisis
    genisis 22 March 2016 22: 05
    +1
    Are you, besides being a liar, a blind man?
    This is an excerpt from the award sheet of Stepanova Zinaida.
    It clearly says, for which she was awarded the Order of the Patriotic War of the XNUMXst degree.
    And when you finish reading, go where I sent you, that is, to yug.
  • genisis
    genisis 23 March 2016 11: 48
    0
    Here is an excerpt from the order to award the scout of the 9th battery 531 ap 89 sd for actions before the assault on the fortress in the park HUMBOLTSHAYN

    But then you definitely know that 89sd did not take such actions, but was in reserve. And everyone who died these days as part of a division assaulting Berlin, they were not there either, because such a Nazi abomination, like you, said so.

    The same order for the storming of the fortress in the HUMBOLHEIN park awarded several more people.
    But the commander of the 26 artillery regiment of the 1945 rifle division, Major Matveev, who signed the order on May 531, 89, of course, knows much less than Sergei Petrovich aka Seal
  • genisis
    genisis 21 March 2016 14: 05
    0
    German collaborator in drawing Turkey into World War I


    Here, as usual, an alternative to your version
    http://rusplt.ru/ww1/history/avantyura-turetskogo-napoleona-13991.html

    Interestingly, did the Germans know that it was the Armenians who helped them drag Turkey into World War I?
    Can you give any documentary evidence?
  • Seal
    Seal 21 March 2016 15: 52
    0
    Interestingly, did the Germans know that it was the Armenians who helped them drag Turkey into World War I?

    Theoretically, the Germans might not have known that the Armenians were also helping them. But most likely they knew. After all, they read the newspapers, but in the newspapers they probably wrote in great detail about the bloody sorties of Armenian warriors from the territory of Russia to the territory of Turkey.
    Can you give any documentary evidence?
    Confirmation of what - did the Germans know or not? So it doesn’t matter at all. Or the fact that Armenian combatants committed acts of retaliation in Turkish territory? I apologize, but you have the entire Armenian segment of the Internet clogged with the exploits of your Armenian fidain (or fedain) heroes in Turkish territory.
    They are definitely heroes for you. This is not a rebuke. Just from yours, from the Armenian point of view, they are really heroes. You have your own, Armenian truth.
    But only for us they are German accomplices. For they acted not in favor of Russia, but of Germany.
  • genisis
    genisis 21 March 2016 14: 56
    +1
    So, most likely (possibly), in the Georgian regiment the Armenians WAS

    With the same probability they were not there - just your guess.

    BY ORDER OF THE TRANSCASIAN COMMISSIONS, in which 40% were ARMENIANS

    Oh, again they wanted to write "a quarter" - but it turned out 40%
    True, for the life of me I don’t understand how you can "a quarter", i.e. 25%, write in numbers like 40%?
  • Seal
    Seal 21 March 2016 18: 10
    -1
    Oh, again they wanted to write "a quarter" - but it turned out 40%

    What does it mean - again?
    True, for the life of me I don’t understand how you can "a quarter", i.e. 25%, write in numbers like 40%?
    Jinx yourself.

    I've told:
    I wanted to write "quarter" distracted

    He remembered incorrectly that something was connected with the four - that’s what he wrote 40.
    Why do you dig into the tenfold importance of the details. They showed you your impudent lies about this episode.
    With the same probability they were not there - just your guess.

    Not with the same. There are grounds for my assumption.
    First of all, what I have already indicated.

    In the magazine “Karabakh 88” we read the article by V. Sargsyan “SAMTSKHE-JAVAHK and NORTH LORI: how to lose their homeland ...” and we come across paragraph 12
    “... It is noteworthy that in 1917, during the nationalization of the army in Transcaucasia, the Armenians of Sgnakh or Gori were called up to the Georgian regiments, and the Armenians of Akhalkalak and Borchalu (North Lori) were called up only to the Armenian regiments ((9) 1928, April 28, . 89.) ... "

    So, we fix that it is written in black and white that: "..in 1917, the ARMENIANS of Sgnakh or Gori were called up to the Georgian regiments ...".

    And the second is demographic statistics. As of 1917, there were no less Armenians in Tbilisi than Georgians themselves.

    So, most likely (possibly), the Armenians were in the Georgian regiment.
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  • 3MGK
    3MGK 20 March 2016 00: 36
    +1
    You have incorrect information. There has never been any Russophobia in Armenia, even after Operation Ring. In Armenia, there was a struggle not against Russian schools, but for Armenian ones: only those of Russian origin were allowed to go to Russian schools. This is due to the fact that in Soviet times Russian schools were better financed, it was prestigious to study there, and the level of education was higher, and it got to the point that the Russian language in Armenia itself began to supplant Armenian. Maybe they went too far, as is usually the case in such cases.
    1. Bakht
      Bakht 20 March 2016 01: 09
      +2
      You have the wrong information. The persecution of the Russian language in Armenia was worse than in the Baltic states. You can only compare with Western Ukraine. Do not make me angry. After all, I can also quote from the Armenian media for the 90s.
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 20 March 2016 09: 54
        +3
        I love the cons. The rate of insanity and lack of evidence. Therefore, the continuation of the denial of lies about friendship ...

        In Armenia, the purity of the experiment was aggravated by the fact that in this, the most mononational of all the republics of the former USSR, there was, accordingly, no ground for real contradictions between the Russian-speaking and, so to speak, “titular-speaking” (which took place in the Baltic states, Moldova , Central Asia, Ukraine), and the persecution of the Russian language was carried out, so to speak, from the principle. The newspaper “The Voice of Armenia”, describing the situation, wrote on March 29, 1991: “...” Persecution of the language ”, so, to paraphrase the words of Griboedov, one can obviously determine the attitude to the Russian language that has developed recently in our republic ... Increasingly indignant votes of other deputies: why do we have so many monuments to Russian writers?»
        And in another place: "...The measure of patriotic feelings is the degree of rejection of all Russian: that is, the more I hate the Russian language, Russian books, Russian broadcasts, Russian newspapers, etc., the greater I am a patriot ”(“ Republic of Armenia ”, 1991, No. 32).
        The Russian edition in the leading state publishing house of the republic was liquidated, and indeed the first politically colored act of vandalism regarding the monument to Pushkin was committed in Armenia; almost simultaneously, a monument to Chekhov was demolished.
        And after gaining independence Nowhere, even in the Baltic countries, Russian schools were not closed so massively and unconditionally as in Armenia (only Western Ukraine is an analogy).
        1. SokolfromRussia
          SokolfromRussia 20 March 2016 10: 22
          +1
          This is from the book Ksenia Myalo quotes. By the way, she was one of the first in her publications to draw attention to the problem of Russophobia in Armenia.
        2. Bakht
          Bakht 20 March 2016 11: 10
          0
          Quite right. One of the best books that reveals the picture of that time. KG Myalo "Russia and the last wars of the 20th century". Desk book. Not only is it electronically. She is always at hand on my shelf.
    2. garnik64
      garnik64 20 March 2016 13: 54
      0
      Along with quotes from the media of the Caucasian Tatars, to the media of the Azerbaijanis of our day.
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 20 March 2016 13: 59
        +1
        Why don't you like quotes? If they are given correctly, they give an idea of ​​the mood of society.
  • Otshelnik
    Otshelnik 19 March 2016 13: 10
    +2
    Insolence is the second happiness .... don’t powder people’s brains ... your dad’s GDP himself said that you began to be brought to the Caucasus 300 years ago ... date references? And Irevan was not yours once ... probably a picture of a French artist I saw, isn’t it? (the old Irevan is not visible in the picture and nothing Armenian is visible on it, Yerevan is the only "ancient" city in the world without a historical center. http: //www.1news.az/authors/oped/20111227040758310.html
    In 1655, the French traveler Jean Tavernier visited Irevan. In his book written on travel notes, Tavernier described the city of Iravan and its fortress, and also included a city plan in his book. According to Tavernier, the Irevan fortress was erected on a hill near the banks of the Zangi River, had 5 towers and was surrounded by a strong protective wall. In the fortress there was only one gate opening to the north. Tavernier noted that the inhabitants of the fortress consisted of Muslims.

    The French traveler and collector Jean Chardin, who visited Irevan in 1673, described the Irevan fortress as follows: “The fortress is more than a small city. It is oval in shape, its circumference is four thousand steps and there are approximately eight hundred houses in it. Only purebred Safavids live there ... Three thousand soldiers were allocated for the defense of the fortress. The ruler’s palace inside the fortress ... In the northern part of the fortress, on a hill, there was a small fortress. The distance between them is about a thousand steps. It is fortified with double walls and artillery. It can accommodate two hundred people. They call her Kechi-gala. ”
    1. garnik64
      garnik64 19 March 2016 14: 23
      +2
      Sorry, how old are you? Why do you think everyone is idiots? Ask the Persians. Georgians, Greeks, Assyrians, ...
    2. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 19 March 2016 16: 39
      +2
      The only thing I can add here is that the Muslim population of the fortress is not an indicator. On the example of the Balkans, there is a tendency that the fortress in the occupied lands was always occupied by a Turkish garrison with families and attendants. And in the rest of the city, Christians could live.

      In the example of modern Serbian Niš (antique Nais). Very ancient city, known before our era. The remains of ancient Roman and Byzantine fortifications still survived on the territory of the Niš fortress. Immediately behind them are the Turkish walls and aries, powder cellars. While the whole city was inhabited by Serbs, the Turkish garrison and Muslims were sitting in the fortress.
  • cyber
    cyber 19 March 2016 14: 36
    +1
    Do you really think we need Russophiles? We don't need Russophobes! And there is no need to frighten Russia with a change of mood. Support even the devil himself! All your "alliance and Russophilia" is expressed in this phrase of yours
    And if this continues to continue, I am Russophile, I will support the west.

    Are you not afraid that then Russia will support Azerbaijan?
    1. Yeraz
      Yeraz 19 March 2016 15: 21
      +4
      Quote: cyber
      Are you not afraid that then Russia will support Azerbaijan?

      Well, when Armenia broke down about the vehicle, Putin came to Baku, signed arms contracts and voila they quickly rushed into the vehicle)))
    2. garnik64
      garnik64 19 March 2016 21: 04
      +2
      You are trying to scare. We are waiting for a war, it is a pity that few people support me in this of the Russians. Although in the Karabakh war there were real heroes from the Russians.
      1. Bakht
        Bakht 20 March 2016 01: 24
        0
        Of course there were
        This is how one of the last true heroes of the Soviet Union died (not to be confused with the three "heroes of August 1991") Oleg Babak, a Poltava resident, lieutenant of the 21st special purpose brigade of the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation (Sofrinskaya), which from June 1989 to July 1991 performed combat missions in Baku, Nagorno-Karabakh, in the area of ​​the Armenian-Azerbaijani border. On April 7, 1991, on Bright Resurrection, Lieutenant Babak, the head of the outpost in the tiny mountain village of Yukhary Jibikli on the border of Azerbaijan and Armenia, died in a battle on the Goris-Kafan road section - by all indications, from a bullet from Armenian fedayeen militants. The Russian army was no longer inviolable for them
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  • aws4
    aws4 20 March 2016 01: 45
    +2
    it's true....
  • Seal
    Seal 20 March 2016 21: 51
    -1
    And yet, if you know about the transfer of Soviet Russia in 1920 to the Turks

    Yes, we know, we know. And we also know that Comrades Frunze and Voroshilov for some time led the group of our advisers at Ataturk.

    Do you know that we have paid back our investments a million times?

    Please note that we began to help Ataturk AFTER he helped us and deceived Azerbaijan, saying that our 11th army is in transit through Azerbaijan to help Turkey fight the Entente. Azerbaijan may have suspected that the Turks were deceiving them, but Atatürk, who was already the master of the entire eastern part of Turkey, was for Azerbaijanis the only hope for help against us. And the Azerbaijanis pretended to believe. As a result, we occupied all of Azerbaijan almost without a fight for 2 days. Moreover, all oil fields fell into our hands safe and sound. The Turks followed this wink

    As the Azerbaijani M.E. Rasulzade wrote:
    Quote: 23424636
    “A part of the Ottoman Turks operating in Baku involuntarily misled people with these words:“ The approaching Red Army is led by a Turk named Nijat-bek. The regiments of this army are made up of Turks. A large number of soldiers come from the Turks of the Volga region. This Army goes to the aid of Anatolia, fighting against deadly enemies. The resistance shown to this Army will be tantamount to hampering the salvation of Turkey. From the point of view of great Turkic unity and the Muslim community, this is tantamount to betrayal. " A day later, it turned out that all these high words were a bluff. It was just a political ploy. ”


    The former head of the organization to combat the counter-revolution of Azerbaijan, Nagy Sheikhzamanli, in his memoirs evaluated the role of the Turks in this way:
    Quote: 23424636
    When the Red Army approached our northern borders, Azerbaijani authorities ordered the governor of Cuba to dismantle the rails for at least one kilometer. The governor executed this order the next day. However, the lying Khalil Bey deceived our general, saying: “My Pasha, the government dismantled the rails on the border. The Red Army will not be able to proceed from here to Anatolia to assist Ataturk. Please take appropriate action. ” The deceived Azerbaijani general ordered the restoration of the railway


    That is, in fact, we bought all Azerbaijan from Ataturk for 10 million rubles in gold, which "cost" a million times more expensive. The young Soviet republic received a source of oil that we badly needed, without which Soviet Russia most likely would not have survived. And then, relying on Azerbaijan, we occupied both Armenia and Georgia, restoring the borders of the Russian Empire in Transcaucasia in almost full original form.
  • Seal
    Seal 21 March 2016 02: 12
    +1
    Armenians are grateful to the Russian Empire. With the advent of the Bolsheviks, everything turned upside down

    Or maybe all the same a little earlier? Having ascended the throne, Alexander III first expels from the public service the Minister of the Interior and possessing a whole bunch of powers Loris-Melikov. Then Emperor Alexander III instructs the new Minister of the Interior, Tolstoy, to take measures against Armenian nationalism as a whole. As a result, by the end of the 1880s in the Russian Empire, almost all Armenians were dismissed from government posts, in 1885 Armenian schools were closed, in 1889 the history and geography of Armenia was excluded from school education. But Emperor Nicholas II took up especially the bringing to life of the Armenians. At first, in 1897-1899 laws were passed on the transfer of parish schools of Armenia to the Ministry of Education. And on June 12, 1903, the Regulation “On the Concentration of Property Management of the Armenian-Gregorian Church in Russia in the possession of government institutions” was adopted. According to it, all real estate (including profitable land) and capital belonging to the Armenian church and religious institutions passed into the jurisdiction of the state. True, this cannot be called complete confiscation, since the share of their owner, the Armenian religious institutions, was allocated from the proceeds from the sale of confiscated property and cash.
    And only 1905, when, frankly, the Russian Empire was no longer up to the Armenians, forced Nicholas II to turn off this right path.

    In order to prevent another attempt to present everything as either Turkish or Azerbaijani propaganda - get a reference
    http://www.nv.am/mir-i-mi/25060?task=view hi
  • Seal
    Seal 20 March 2016 19: 54
    +1
    If Armenia did not need our bases on the territory of Armenia, they would not exist. And since the Armenians are doing everything to keep these bases - and we don’t take money for land under the bases, and utility bills for the most favorable conditions - the conclusion is clear.
    You can even conduct an experiment. Let’s offer the Armenians to pay us for holding bases on the territory of Armenia and see what will happen lol
  • 3MGK
    3MGK 20 March 2016 00: 24
    +1
    Not certainly in that way. Each, of course, pursues its own interests, but the Armenians have a special attitude to the Russians. I think this is because they fought side by side for 200 years and, being in a Muslim environment, were looking for co-religionists - Orthodox Christians.
    1. Seal
      Seal 20 March 2016 22: 16
      0
      I think this is because they fought side by side for 200 years and, being in a Muslim environment, were looking for co-religionists - Orthodox Christians.

      Sorry, but you have almost 40% of the border - this is the border with Georgia. Do you think Georgia is also included in the Muslim environment of Armenia?
      And since when did the Gregorians suddenly become Orthodox? You deny the Holy Trinity !!
      Friend is known in trouble. You need to look in the years when Russia was not easy. For example, 1918,

      In 1918, the fate of Russia was decided oh how far from Armenia.
      And here is your proposal to see when it really was not easy for me to like. Let's watch.
      Armenia has never been and could not objectively be our allies, because only a sovereign state can be an ally. Armenia in the historically foreseeable period was not a sovereign state. And all historical fantasies, as it was a great state in the Stone Age, are irrelevant.
      But the Armenians could be allies in private, so to speak. Let's see the story.
      In the history of Russia, in fact, there were not many moments when we really needed help. You can re-read on the fingers.
      Well, for example, we would not have been hindered by assistance in the attack of Khan Mamai in 1380 year.
      What, did the Armenians come to our aid? No.
      "The same autumn came Prince Mamaia of the Horde with his like-minded people, and with all the other princes of the Horde, and with all the power of Totarskoy and Polovtsy, and in addition to this, he ponaimov rati, Bessermen, and Armen, and Fryaz, Cherkasy, and Yasy, and Burt ...

      Novgorod IV Chronicle. PSRL. T. 4, part 1. P. 311
      The "Armenians" mentioned in the annals are hardly Ethiopians :)))
      The Armenians (in this case, the Crimean Armenian slave traders) went to Mamay as mercenaries and were beaten together with the Tatars by our ancestors on the Kulikovo field.
      Or here is the year 1612. Representatives of many peoples of Russia joined the Militia of Minin and Pozharsky. The militia included Tatars, Bashkirs and some Siberian princes. But not a single Armenian was recorded in the militia of Minin and Pozharsky.
      1709 year. The war with Sweden. Charles XII near Poltava. Did at least one Armenian come to Poltava to help our army? No, I didn’t come.
      1711 year, Prut trek !! The Turks surrounded our entire army, led by the king. Have the Armenians raised an uprising somewhere in Turkey to help us? No, they didn’t raise it !!
      Crimean War, 1853-1856. Maybe in these years, the Armenians raised an uprising somewhere in Turkey to help us? No, they didn’t raise !!!
      The Armenians "helped" us only when our troops shed their blood in Transcaucasia in the interests of protecting Armenians (and Georgians).
      When it came to the vital interests of the Armenians themselves, they never helped us.
      What else is not clear to you?
      And in 1914 it was extremely important for us that Turkey did not enter the war !! What did the Armenians do? The Armenians fanned the war between us and Turkey with all their might, thereby helping our enemies the Germans. In two weeks, the Armenians hoped to enter the train of our armies in Constantinople, and then with the help of the Americans, who had already recognized the “right of nations to self-determination,” turn their backs on “Russian tsarism” and begin to build Greater Armenia. But God marks the assault.
      1. garnik64
        garnik64 21 March 2016 22: 57
        0
        Ask why one of the chapters of St. Basil’s Cathedral is named after Gregory the Illuminator.
  • 3MGK
    3MGK 20 March 2016 00: 17
    0
    Friend is known in trouble. You need to look in the years when Russia was not easy. For example, in 1918, you can search the Internet for the murder of Russian soldiers at the train station of Shamkhor.
  • Seal
    Seal 20 March 2016 19: 59
    +3
    And we are not and cannot be allies, except for our army and navy (and special services my supplement) Neither Armenia has ever been and will not be our ally, nor Azerbaijan. But Azerbaijan needs to be tied to us. He is much more valuable.

    In the interests of the state, Russia does not need Azerbaijan, not Armenia. This is easy to prove. While there, in Transcaucasia, a conflict is smoldering, from which we are supposedly equidistant (but still a little closer to Armenia) Azerbaijan (seeing this and not hoping for our help in returning Karabakh) will inevitably drift towards Georgia, and therefore into side of NATO. And thus give the opportunity for Europe and the Ukrainians to build all sorts of intrigues for us, such as Chinese transit or deliveries of Turkmen gas to Ukraine and further to Europe. And the Armenians will constantly promote us for money, to their loud songs that they are our only friend and ally in the Transcaucasus. What is our national interest here? Constantly losing money directly (gifts to Armenia) and indirectly (the transit that had to go through us - goes past us)? Is this our state interest? Let's imagine that Georgia is or has already joined NATO and see what is more dangerous for us: a) if Azerbaijan joins NATO then b) if Armenia joins NATO then Let's start with the latter. If Armenia joins NATO (especially when Georgia is already a NATO member), this will not affect the weather in any way. Well, let's just assume that somewhere in the back of Georgia, far from our border, another Georgian region will appear. Well, or if Georgia is not a NATO member, then we can assume that NATO member Turkey has one more area in the east. And that's all. Armenia’s joining NATO does not create absolutely any problems for us. We do not have common borders with Armenia. But if Azerbaijan joins NATO, especially when Georgia is already a member of NATO, then look at the map. We are instantly cut off from Iran. Communication is only by sea. And NATO ships will appear in the Caspian Sea. Moreover, having appeared in the Caspian Sea, NATO can begin to control the eastern side of the Caspian. Do we need it? It is vitally important for us to urgently change the vector of politics from pro-Armenian to involving Azerbaijan in our orbit. If we tie Azerbaijan to ourselves, we will thereby completely deprive our Central Asian "friends" and Kazakhstan of any illusions that they have the opportunity to pull their pipelines to Europe, bypassing Russia (or Azerbaijan, which is tied to us). By tying Azerbaijan to us, we will cut the eggs and Ukraine and Georgia, which have already lathered up for rail transit to China past Russia through the Black and Caspian Seas.
    And if Azerbaijan falls out of this chain, then to hell with it, and not Chinese transit. There is no one to replace Azerbaijan. Armenia has no access to the Caspian Sea. And Armenia ... yes, to hell with us, we need this Armenia, located in such a bum of the world that it is impossible to get into it from Russia by land without the consent of Azerbaijan or Georgia. And by the sea - this is through Iran and there are another thousand miles, and all with mountains, mountains. It is beneficial for us that Azerbaijan, with our help or with our connivance, regain Karabakh. Then our Azerbaijan is tight !!
    And only after that, when we will tightly bind Azerbaijan to ourselves, only then will it be possible to gradually feed Armenia with weapons. So that Azerbaijan clearly understands that if it tries even a little bit to loosen the rope that ties it to Russia, then the Armenians may again begin to take Karabakh. Herein lies the interest of state Russia.
    1. garnik64
      garnik64 21 March 2016 22: 59
      +1
      Write obvious bullshit and so much.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 19 March 2016 08: 13
    +8
    Well, what is the war with Turkey? What is it about? For Turkey, with all its ambitiousness and attempts to drag NATO into protecting its interests, this will be the last war. And if Erdogan does not understand this, then the Turkish General Staff understands this. He is not ready to participate in suicide, and most likely he will remember that Erdogan is the president in the PARLIAMENTARY republic, and in general the prime minister in Turkey is the prime minister! Which, too, was completely frostbitten, of course, but he was far from Erdogan. And the attempt of the Turks to touch Europe for the most sensitive place - for the wallet - is still unknown how it will end for them.
    And without global "turmoil" Azerbaijan and Armenia will not cope. It's just that the Armenians will fight to the death, and the Azerbaijanis will die for what? And oil posed such problems to Azerbaijan that it would not be up to "cheeks" to survive.
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 19 March 2016 09: 46
      +2
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      then the Turkish General Staff understands this. He’s not ready to commit suicide

      the fact that the Turkish General Staff understands this doesn’t mean anything, there are currently loyal fighters to Erdogan, and not loyal ones, either at home or behind bars.
    2. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 21 March 2016 22: 40
      0
      Despite the formally modest powers of the President of Turkey, he is now popularly elected, which gives him great legitimacy. Most importantly, Erdogan is the de facto leader of the parliamentary majority, and his prime minister.
      Turkey is now a de jure parliamentary republic with enhanced presidential power, de facto closer to a mixed (semi-presidential) republic. And the goal of Erdogan is to build a presidential republic in his state.
  • Xent
    Xent 19 March 2016 10: 33
    +2
    Well, somehow they finally listened and wrote about the Azerbaijani army.
    Comparisons show that Azerbaijanis have such superiority in armament that they can easily break the Armenians. Well, we Armenians are just waiting for this, and are so tired of those keyboard snipers and heroes in front of the monitors.
    However, the author probably forgot about such trifles as the S-300 and, for example, the MLRS < > ... Yes, it's nothing, it's important that we ourselves know !!!
    1. Bongo
      Bongo 19 March 2016 11: 18
      +4
      Quote: Xent
      Well, somehow they finally listened and wrote about the Azerbaijani army.
      Comparisons show that Azerbaijanis have such superiority in armament that they can easily break the Armenians. Well, we Armenians are just waiting for this, and are so tired of those keyboard snipers and heroes in front of the monitors.
      However, the author probably forgot about such trifles as the S-300 and, for example, the MLRS < > ... Yes, it's nothing, it's important that we ourselves know !!!


      When listing the available equipment and weapons, the author made a number of serious errors. The indicated information corresponds to the 2012 year.
      1. Yeraz
        Yeraz 19 March 2016 15: 22
        +1
        Quote: Bongo
        The indicated information corresponds to 2012.

        Yes, there are many things that are not indicated.
      2. SokolfromRussia
        SokolfromRussia 19 March 2016 17: 12
        0
        Here is "Military balance 2016" reports:
        AIFV 206: 20 BMD-1; 43 BMP-1; 33 BMP-2; 88 BMP-3; Xnumx
        BRM-1; 7 BTR-80A
        APC 568
        APC (T) 336 MT-LB
        APC (W) 142: 10 BTR-60; 132 BTR-70
        PPV 90: 45 Marauder; 45 Matador
        ARTY 542
        SP 87: 122mm 46 2S1; 152mm 24: 6 2S3; 18 2S19 Msta-S;
        155mm 5 ATMOS 2000; 203mm 12 2S7
        TOWED 207: 122mm 129 D-30; 130mm 36 M-46; 152mm
        42: 18 2A36; 24 D-20
        GUN / MOR 120mm 36: 18 2S9 NONA; 18 2S31 Vena
        MRL 100 +: 122mm 52 +: 43 BM-21; 9 + IMI Lynx; 128mm
        12 RAK-12; 220mm 6 TOS-1A; 300mm 30 9A52 Smerch
        MOR 120mm 112: 5 CARDOM; 107 PM-38
  • Kenneth
    Kenneth 19 March 2016 11: 05
    +4
    What we sell to Azerbaijan is sold for money, to Armenia for our loans. We actually contain Armenia, worse than Belarus
    1. SokolfromRussia
      SokolfromRussia 19 March 2016 12: 29
      +3
      Exactly. Money is spent on its weapons, on various assistance, on the maintenance of a military base. Huge money from the Russian Federation pumps out the Armenian diaspora. And what is the benefit for Russia?
      1. garnik64
        garnik64 19 March 2016 21: 18
        +1
        102 base contain Armenians. And the diaspora earns.
        1. SokolfromRussia
          SokolfromRussia 20 March 2016 10: 23
          +1
          Of course, the Armenians ... Our MO contains it. Earns or not, but the fact remains that money is being pumped out of the Russian Federation to Armenia.
    2. garnik64
      garnik64 19 March 2016 21: 14
      0
      And you do not sell and do not give loans, but simply impose an embargo on the supply of weapons in the Caucasus. After all, Russia does not want war in the CIS countries.
      1. Seal
        Seal 20 March 2016 22: 25
        0
        After all, Russia does not want war in the CIS countries.
        Yes, fight for your health, as much as you like. The main thing - do not drag us into your Transcaucasian showdowns. There is enough for us and our North Caucasus above the roof.
  • cyber
    cyber 19 March 2016 11: 38
    +7
    Here, the friend asked above who is the greatest ally? Armenians or Azerbaijanis?

    Armenians now have only enemies around and their very survival depends on Russia! They cannot afford to betray Russia, otherwise Azerbaijan and the Turks will crush them. So their devotion to the CSTO and Russia is based on their weaknesses. Believing without looking back to the weak is very dangerous. If tomorrow Geyropa and the USA offer the Armenians support, they will not need Russia. After all, the United States and Europe will become guarantors of their protection against possible aggression by Turkey and Azerbaijan. Even more so than with Russia.

    Azerbaijan is using Russia in a different way. This is blackmailing the West with the possible rapprochement between Azerbaijan and Russia. From time to time they "get closer" then "get closer". Such a pendulum of begging for their interests from the West and Russia. Who will please Azerbaijan more like that and we will.

    It is very naive and stupid to call both of them "allies", they are only guided by their own interests. Some people need Russia to survive, while others can raise the stakes by bargaining for their interests with the West. Russia, while supporting both of them with weapons, does not allow the West to strengthen its positions for the time being. Rather, until the moment when the West will not raise the stakes and turn them all into its service.
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth 19 March 2016 12: 19
      +6
      Allies are determined by common interests and close economic and other ties. America has such allies. And what we call customers. True, unlike the Roman clients, who were obliged to support their patron under any conditions, ours will throw us, as they have already thrown us many times. Because the type is proud and independent, which does not stop them from begging for help and benefits.
    2. Stena
      Stena 19 March 2016 13: 09
      +1
      Quote: cyber
      Here, the friend asked above who is the greatest ally? Armenians or Azerbaijanis?

      These are not allies, but partners.
      But we have only 2 allies - the Russian army and the Russian fleet.
      You should never forget about this ...
      1. Travian
        Travian 19 March 2016 16: 05
        0
        three - another VKS
    3. Yeraz
      Yeraz 19 March 2016 15: 32
      +4
      Quote: cyber
      does not allow the West to strengthen its position for the time being.

      It’s called Russia controls the conflict, because it is dependent on the supplier of weapons. And 80% of the armaments of Azerbaijan and almost 100% of the weapons in Armenia are Russian weapons. Consequently, all its parts and various services are in Russia’s hands. Yes, you can find similar parts in other countries, but this is only hemorrhagic.
      Quote: cyber
      The West will not raise rates or turn them all into their service.

      Here you are right. Both countries take weapons stupidly because the USA and the West refuse to sell weapons or, as in the case of Armenia, give them weapons.
      Azerbaijan at least somehow dilutes weapons with Turkey and Israel. But this is a certain segment. Israel and Turkey do not make good helicopters and airplanes, and much more.
      But, as soon as the West decides to place a bet, Azerbaijan will immediately buy up everything Western. Thanks to the close integration of the armies of Turkey and Azerbaijan, Azerbaijani officers and soldiers are familiar with NATO technology and the only ones in the CIS who can fly both instantly and on land and on 16. By the way, the Turks also know how to fly to SU and MIG.



      Here from the latest exercises.


      AZERI PILOTS FULFILLED ON F-16 Fighter Jets -
      March 12, 2016 17:45 - Army.

      TURAZ Şahini-2016 flight exercises continue.

      As Vesti.Az reports with reference to the press service of the Ministry of Defense, according to the scenario of the exercises, the pilots of the air forces of Azerbaijan and Turkey completed familiarization flights.

      Before the flights, a briefing was held for pilots. Weather conditions and other technical issues were discussed.

      Then Turkish pilots performed flights on MiG-29 fighters and Su-25 attack aircraft, and Azerbaijani pilots on F-16 fighters.

      The teachings are ongoing.

    4. garnik64
      garnik64 19 March 2016 16: 53
      +1
      Everything is in the hands of Russia, and if it behaves like (in the words of Vysotsky) and is not a friend and not an enemy, but like that, then you have to keep in touch with Brussels. There are comments on YouTube by the former head of the Ministry of National Security of Armenia. The deputy minister of defense of Turkey, asks his colleague in the United States for permission to send Turkish troops to Armenia. To which he replied that you would deal with Russia. And if we agree with her (Russia), to which the Amer deputy answered, then you will deal with us.
      And at the expense of enemies, look at the political map of the world. And do not forget yourself.
  • Adik89
    Adik89 19 March 2016 12: 07
    +1
    There will be no war! Nobody has gone crazy there. Even the Turks were not idiots, they won’t go to a direct war with Russia. Which Turkey, even the United States, together with Europe.
    1. Kenneth
      Kenneth 19 March 2016 12: 22
      0
      A military conflict between Az and Ar is quite possible. It will be decided by a blow to Karabakh, quick and effective. Armenia - maximum accept refugees. Our maximum advocates at the UN for resolving the problems peacefully, and then they will provide repair services for military equipment Az.
      1. saigon
        saigon 19 March 2016 14: 43
        0
        Well, yes, of course, a quick and effective blow is direct to the NPO. There, forgive the plateau, there is defense and how many people dig there. God knows. Another trifle on both sides is hot Caucasian guys. Here are just the Armenians, as it were, less hot. Resistance for more.
        1. Kenneth
          Kenneth 19 March 2016 16: 17
          +3
          There, forgive only the tanks and apply, and used quite successfully. Further, the war in Karabakh was actually a partisan war, of poorly trained semi-partisan units. Now a well-armed manpower army of Az will hit the NK, strictly within its jurisdiction. And the army of Ar can risk intervening and become an aggressor for the entire world community and fly under the appropriate sanctions. And even Russia in this case will not help her. Thus, the already overwhelming advantage of Az over NK will play
      2. Yeraz
        Yeraz 19 March 2016 15: 35
        +1
        Quote: Kenneth
        Our maximum advocates at the UN for resolving the problems peacefully, and then they will provide repair services for military equipment Az.

        Russia will not allow this conflict to be resolved. Both countries will flee instantly.
        Another thing, if the USA and Europe specifically fit here, the alignment will already be different.
        1. Kenneth
          Kenneth 19 March 2016 16: 18
          +2
          Do not run away. It will be ATO Az on its territory. Moreover, the NK controls the occupied territories of Az to the NK not related.
    2. Nicola Bari
      Nicola Bari 19 March 2016 14: 22
      0
      In this case, war is possible as a way to "bleed off steam" of social tension. More precisely, one of the reasons for its beginning. But then everything can twist as you like.
  • Chisayna
    Chisayna 19 March 2016 14: 04
    0
    Azerbaijan, like a battered boxer, wants a rematch. But other thrashing makes itself felt.
  • Ima tsoh
    Ima tsoh 19 March 2016 17: 37
    -9
    You read reviews and think about how people became primitive capitalists in their judgments. The Bolsheviks inflicted Ar. treasonous act exposing Ar. to slaughter the Turks - they handed over to the Turks the Nakhchivan Armenian region, Karabakh, the Black Sea coast with the adjacent territories of Kars, and more. The territory of Turkey is 70% Armenian lands. This story is now repeated in the same way as the Kurds. Catherine 2 farsightedly relocated inviting Armenians from Crimea and eastern Ar. to the territory of the Rostov, Krasnodar and Stavropol regions, thereby creating the last buffer in front of plain Russia from the then ISIS. In the North Caucasus in the republics are still fighting that are presented as anti-terrorism. It’s not enough for you to understand what is happening. And the policy of Russia that woke up after the downed plane is who are the Turks. It’s very strange. And real steps must be taken after ten times analysis and then done. Armenia is a small country now but quite influential. And many useful and important steps for Russia are laid by it. But they do not write about it, but present it as their own.
    1. cyber
      cyber 19 March 2016 17: 59
      +4
      What are the "many useful and important steps" - please give an example. And in terms of influence, if it doesn't bother you. Who can Armenia influence in the Caucasus?
      1. Seal
        Seal 21 March 2016 17: 53
        0
        What are the "many useful and important steps" - please give an example.

        One Armenians proudly answered this question to me on the MIC website: "Armenia did not protest against Russia's annexation of Crimea." That's how it is !! Armenia did not protest !!! How brave they are, these Armenians !!! How useful and important it is for us that Armenia did not protest.
        When asked why our so-called "best friend" and "most loyal ally" has not officially recognized Crimea as part of Russia for almost 2 years now, none of the Armenians answered.
    2. Seal
      Seal 20 March 2016 23: 46
      +1
      Catherine 2 farsightedly relocated inviting Armenians from Crimea and eastern Ar.

      Sorry, but this is BAD !!!
      Relocation from the Crimea.
      Firstly, non-Armenians were resettled. More precisely, not just Armenians, but all Christians. And first of all, the Greeks.
      Suvorov’s papers contain detailed relocation reports. One of his statements, compiled on September 16, 1778, states that
      The number of immigrants from Crimea to Russia is: Greeks 18 407 souls, Armenians 12 598, Georgians 219 and Wallachians 162 souls (TsGADA, f. Gosarkhiv, rank XVI, d. 588, part 12, l. 390).

      And the main question - why? Official version -
      “In the Crimean Khanate, almost all crafts and trade were in the hands of Armenians and Greeks. Taxes collected from them accounted for a significant part of the income of the Khan's treasury. The tsarist government sought above all to economically weaken the Crimean Khanate and make it even more dependent on Russia. ”

      But let's look at things realistically. By this time (1778), the Russian economy was so much more powerful than the economy of Crimea that if it hadn’t been for such a large number of Greeks and Armenians to be expelled from Crimea, on the contrary, add that the economy of Crimea would have amounted to no more than 0,01% of the economy of the Russian Empire.
      What then ?
      Let us recall that, having ascended the throne as one of the first state affairs, Catherine II in 1764 secularized monastic lands in order to seize church possessions and abolish part of the monasteries.
      In 1778, everyone already understood that Crimea will not be Russian today, tomorrow. Actually, part of the Crimea - Kerch and part of the Kerch Peninsula came back to us in 1774.
      And then it turned out that in Crimea, huge land areas belonged not to the Tatars, but to the monasteries of one or another Christian denomination: Greek, Armenian-Gregorian and even Armenian-Catholic. That was news !!! If Crimea is ours, it means the Decree on secularization will also apply to it. But even Catherine II and her “cabinet of ministers" did not want to look like "robbers" in the eyes of the new subjects, whom they were preparing to free from the "Tatar yoke." Therefore, the Plan of eviction from the Crimea of ​​all Christians was prepared. And without fail - the conclusion of all monasteries and monks.
      The execution was entrusted to A.V. Suvorov, who understood everything from a half-word.
      Catherine II characterized Suvorov as follows:
      “Suvorov is very loyal to me and highly incorruptible; he easily understands when an important matter arises in the secret office; I would like to trust only him, but I must keep in check his severity so that it does not go beyond the boundaries that I have prescribed for myself. ”
      . True, some argue that these words refer to father A.V. Suvorov - to V.I. Suvorov. But V.I. Suvorov retired in 1768, and this statement was first recorded after the suppression of A.V. Suvorov Pugachev uprising. Yes, in August 1774, Lieutenant General A.V. Suvorov, at that time already one of our most successful generals, was recalled from the 1st Army, located in the Danube principalities, and it was to him that Count Panin entrusted the command of the troops that should were defeated the main Pugachev army in the Volga region. In other cases, perhaps Pugachev would take Moscow as well. But Suvorov is Suvorov. Pugachev was defeated, caught and delivered to A.V. Suvorov, who conducted his first interrogations. And then he personally delivered Pugachev first to Simbirsk, and then to Moscow.
    3. Seal
      Seal 20 March 2016 23: 46
      0
      So, A.V. Suvorov was not only a great commander, but also a statesman. He completed the task. Only a few hundred Christians remained in Crimea. Of these, 288 people (60 Greeks and 228 Armenians) remained "for trade, wintering and for their own punishments," as Suvorov wrote in the statement. The inhabitants of Kerch, which, according to the Kuchuk-Kainardzhiyskiy world of 1774, became part of Russia.
      In fact, the Greeks and Armenians, despite all the hardships that fell on their lot, did not want to leave Crimea at all. Kozlovskiy Greeks said: “Though they will chop us with sabers, we still won’t leave anywhere! ..” Armenians also begged the khan to save them from such a misfortune. In the family of Popovs from the village of Styl in the Donetsk region, a tradition is kept (from the great-great-grandmother of the mistress), according to which, in the Crimean Styl no one knew that they were going to resettle. Everything was unexpected: some people arrived on carts and began to rush residents: "Let's leave! Get ready!". Nobody wanted to leave, people had to be forced to almost force. Many were sure that they would come back. Did not return.

      As the Armenians themselves write
      http://noev-kovcheg.ru/mag/2012-02/3039.html#ixzz43TUHrORj
      Half of the migrants died from cold, hunger and disease during the transition, which lasted for a year and a half. The people were thrown into a hungry, cold, deserted steppe. People had to winter in the bare steppe in dugouts and tents, many went crazy from the cold. The Rostov historian Vladimir Sidorov in private conversations called the mentioned actions of the tsarist authorities genocide. Archimandrite Petros Markosyan also died during the transition.


      Archimandrite died, and ... with him. The main thing has been done. Crimea has been cleared of unwanted Christian landowners.
      But Muslim Tatars could not be reckoned with.
      I believe that A.V. Suvorov made sure that all the papers (who had) the right to own land in the Crimea during the resettlement were "lost." In any case, none of the evicted subsequently claimed any rights and did not try to sue.
      1. genisis
        genisis 21 March 2016 12: 25
        +2
        Tell me, who was Suvorova's mother Avdotya Fedoseevna Manukova by nationality?

        Only, of course, with documentary evidence, of which you have in abundance
        1. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 16: 20
          +1
          Documentary or other evidence that Avdotya Fedoseevna Manukova was an Armenian or a semi-Armenian does not exist in nature.
          One hundred years ago, in the July issue of the magazine "Historical Herald" for 1891, an article by M.I. Pylyaev under the name "Father of Suvorov" ... The father of Generalissimo Suvorov - General-General and Senator Vasily Ivanovich Suvorov was born in 1705 in Moscow. "His ancestral home was on Tsaritsynskaya Street, the current Bolshaya Nikitskaya." He knew several languages ​​and, as M.I. writes Pylyaev, translated the famous work of Vauban (French military engineer. - A.B.) "The foundation of fortresses." “Married was V.I. Suvorov on Avdotya Fedoseevna Manukova; her father served under Peter I as a clerk and described Ingermanland by tracts. "


          Posted by: Hayasa Ararat
          Source: http://shkolazhizni.ru/culture/articles/44319/
          © Shkolazhizni.ru

          Could a clerk be an Armenian? Well, he could be purely theoretical, if he adopted Orthodoxy. But let’s go on the other side.

          The progenitor of the Manukyan (Manukov) family, who asked the Russian Empire for approval of princely dignity, which they were denied, is Manuk bei Mirzoyan (roman. Emanuel Mârzaian; 1769, Ruschuk - 1817).
          Suvorov was born in Moscow on November 13 (24), 1729. That is, the ancestor of "his mother's clan" has not yet been born)) And the time difference between the birth of Suvorov and the birth of a relative, the noble family of Manukovs (Manukyans) is exactly 40 years :)

          The real father of Avdotya (Evdokia) Fedoseyevna Suvorova, is Theodosius Semenovich, belonged to the old family of the Moscow serving nobility, since 1725 he was vice-president of the Votchin college. Russian, orthodox. Not about any Armenian roots, no mention.
  • cyber
    cyber 19 March 2016 18: 20
    +1
    Catherine 2 farsightedly relocated inviting Armenians from Crimea and eastern Ar. to the territory of the Rostov, Krasnodar and Stavropol regions, thereby creating the last buffer in front of plain Russia from the then ISIS.


    Yah? Maybe the reason for the resettlement of Armenians from Crimea was still different? It seems that in the speeches of Armenians resentment against Russia sounds? Why all of a sudden? Few Russia helped the Armenians for centuries? It seems to be a lot! How could they and helped. After the last earthquake, how many Armenians were relocated to the Kuban? They gave everyone housing in the first place. It seems they’ve never offended ... or is it not enough?
    1. garnik64
      garnik64 19 March 2016 21: 42
      -1
      There is no offense, it’s just that Russia is not confident, its actions are not understandable. 84 served in Chirchik, as the Uzbeks decided to beat the Russians. They presented as Muslims against the Russians, so that the Turkmens stood up for them. I think you understood whose side I was on .Tatars of the Union republics supported the Uzbeks, and the Russians abstained. I would like the Russians to support the Armenians without hesitation.
      1. iouris
        iouris 19 March 2016 23: 42
        -1
        No offense. Peace in Transcaucasia is possible. For this, Armenia and (or) Azerbaijan should become regions within the superpower, based on Russia. On the other hand, it is beneficial for the Russian Federation that potential allies are arming themselves, have large defense budgets, and the youth are undergoing serious military training.
      2. cyber
        cyber 20 March 2016 06: 45
        0
        Well, Russia supports the Armenians and Armenia! It’s just that it’s probably impossible without hesitation, all the same, you have a real madhouse going on in the Caucasus. The fact that Azerbaijan has not yet attacked Armenia more than eloquently speaks of Russia's support for Armenia. Russia considers both Azerbaijan and Armenia as its partners. All the same, they once lived in one state, a huge number of Armenians and Azerbaijanis live in Russia. Therefore, everything is done so carefully both in your support and in relations with Azerbaijan. You, Armenians, look at everything "from your bell tower." And you put yourself in the place of Russia and everything will immediately become clear. Russia needs both Armenia and Azerbaijan as friends.
        1. garnik64
          garnik64 20 March 2016 14: 15
          0
          Azerbaijan is not a problem. The problem is Turkey, with which Russia periodically fraternizes to the detriment of Armenia. Their goal is a great Turan. And they are doing everything to achieve their goal. Look at the border between Nakhichevan and Turkey. There was no common border, the Turks exchanged a distance of 7 km with the Persians, three times more for the plot. Think about why?
          1. Bakht
            Bakht 20 March 2016 14: 39
            0
            Give the text of the contract? Or will you find it yourself? The problem is an excessively large appetite. Is there a glass factory in Armenia? It would be necessary to look in the mirror.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. 3MGK
      3MGK 19 March 2016 23: 39
      -3
      Did the Armenians help Russia a little? Everything was mutual. Look on the Internet, about three hundred generals of Armenian descent for 200 years, 200 thousand soldiers only in the First World War. But, unfortunately, after the Armenian volunteer detachments and the local population helped the Russian troops on the Caucasian front, territories were returned here, and on the Balkan front, Russia continued to strengthen its positions, roughly speaking, we became a bargaining chip. And after the Russians left, the Turks began to take revenge on the Armenians (and before that they lived relatively peacefully, almost all of Turkey’s foreign trade was in the hands of the Armenians). And in 1915, the Russian command deliberately slowed down to let the Turks destroy the Armenians in order to get Armenia without the Armenians. In 1920, Russia and Turkey jointly attacked Armenia and divided, and in the summer of 1992, in the Nagorno-Karabakh, the Russian landing troops led by Shamanov broke into the Armenian defense for the Azerbaijanis. So things are not going smoothly here.
      1. cyber
        cyber 20 March 2016 07: 25
        +2
        3MGK, you shouldn't have said that "the Russian command deliberately hesitated." Russia itself was at war. Ottoman Armenians fought on the side of Turkey before the genocide began. Russian Armenians fought on the side of Russia. Everything was so intertwined there that my head was spinning! During the Balkan War, for example, about 8000 Ottoman Armenians fought in the Turkish army. And the British celebrated their special valor! Those. fought well against the Russian troops!

        After the conclusion of a treaty between the Turks and Germany, Turkey entered the First World War and announced mobilization, incl. and the Armenians were drafted into the Ottoman army. For example, at Sarykmash, the troops of the Turkish Enver Pasha were defeated by Russian troops (assisted by Russian Armenian volunteers). Enver himself was saved from death by an Armenian Ottoman officer! After that, of course, Enver, on the contrary, accused the Armenians of treason. Do you understand what kind of "porridge was brewed"? Armenians fought against Russia and for her! Nevertheless, after the beginning of the Armenian genocide, Russia unconditionally sided with the Armenians ...

        The Armenian author G. Ter-Markarian, in his work “How It All Happened,” wrote: “For the sake of historical justice and honor of the last Russian Tsar, one cannot remain silent that at the beginning of the disasters described in 1915, on the personal order of the Tsar, the Russian-Turkish border was ajar and huge crowds of exhausted Armenian refugees accumulated on it were let into Russian land ... Near the border, right under the open sky, there were many tables at which Russian officials received Armenian refugees without any formalities, handing a royal ruble for each family member and a special a document giving them the right to freely arrange throughout the Russian Empire during the year, using all types of transport free of charge. Here, feeding of hungry people from field kitchens and distribution of clothes to the needy were arranged. Russian doctors and sisters of mercy distributed medicines and provided emergency care to the sick, wounded and pregnant. In total, more than 350 thousand Turkish Armenians were then allowed to cross the border and find refuge and salvation in Russia. ”

        As soon as the massacre of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire began, the collection of assistance to victims and refugees began throughout Russia, committees began to arise. For example, in Nakhichevan-on-Don (in the past, a city on the right bank of the Don River, now part of the Proletarsky district of the city of Rostov-on-Don), the Circle Assembly Committee was formed in favor of the Armenian refugees, and later renamed the Armenian Committee.
        1. garnik64
          garnik64 21 March 2016 23: 09
          0
          Everything is correct +
        2. Bakht
          Bakht 21 March 2016 23: 22
          0
          Did not read G. Ter-Markaryan. Just enlighten. What border was opened in 1915?
          1. cyber
            cyber 22 March 2016 01: 02
            0
            Judging by this map and deportation routes, we are talking about the border in the areas of modern Georgia.

            https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Armenian_Genocide_Map-
            en.svg / 1920px-Armenian_Genocide_Map-en.svg.png
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. genisis
        genisis 21 March 2016 12: 28
        +1
        Photo taken in June 1992.

        At that time, Azerbaijani Minister of Defense Rakhim Gaziev in Gandzak was preparing to take Martakert and Shaumyan with the help of Russian airborne forces. Photo taken during verification of units of the 328th Airborne Regiment of the Russian Federation
      4. Seal
        Seal 21 March 2016 21: 14
        -1
        And after the Russians left, the Turks began to take revenge on the Armenians (and before that they lived relatively peacefully, almost all of Turkey’s foreign trade was in the hands of the Armenians).

        And not only external, but also almost everything internal. But besides the Armenians there were also merchants such as Greeks and Jews. And you believe that the Turkish peasants, who had to give their products of their labor for nothing to the resellers - Armenians, Greeks and Jews - were delighted with you?

        And in 1915, the Russian command deliberately slowed down to let the Turks destroy the Armenians in order to get Armenia without the Armenians.


        Well, the fact that we wanted to get some more Armenia is rubbish. We wanted to get the straits. So for their sake we would give the Erivan province - in FIG we needed it. And the fact that sooner or later is none of your business. When they came, then they came. Say thank you for coming. And you see, they took the fashion - to criticize that the Russians came to the rescue late. The Poles come out with one substance that we arrived in Warsaw late to the Great Patriotic War. Armenians - that we came to help them late. Ugh, in a word.

        on the Caucasian front, Armenian volunteer units and the local population helped the Russian troops, they returned territories here, and on Balkan front Russia continued to strengthen its position, roughly speaking, we became a bargaining chip.
        What other "Balkan Front"? What kind of "Balkan Front" did we have in 1915?
        And on the German Front, we fought the bloody battles that you never dreamed of all 1915. And retreated. As we, in 1915, on the German Front, we needed our troops, which we were forced to keep on the Caucasian Front.
    3. Seal
      Seal 21 March 2016 00: 03
      0
      My version is a little higher. And the number of resettled Greeks was greater than the number of resettled Armenians.
  • Karlos
    Karlos 19 March 2016 23: 51
    +1
    Okay, for the very near-count Count Loris-Melikov, First Minister of Internal Affairs of Russia, hell. Serebryakov (Artsatagortsyan), the founder of Novorossiysk, the Lazarev brothers, Lianozov, Tarasov, Mantashev (founder of the tank oil and gas industry), Aivazovsky, March 5, USSR, etc., etc. are all Armenians.
    1. Chisayna
      Chisayna 20 March 2016 00: 23
      +1
      Are you Armenian? Add Zatikyan, for objectivity.
      1. garnik64
        garnik64 20 March 2016 14: 19
        -1
        Who pleaded not guilty, and the accomplice had an "iron" alibi.
        1. Chisayna
          Chisayna 20 March 2016 16: 14
          0
          Well then, remember, a group of senior lieutenant Shapovalov from 21 VDBr, when your fidains tried to take away ZU-23-2. Or the fidains also had an alibi.
          1. garnik64
            garnik64 20 March 2016 22: 33
            -2
            Well, you will remember how many people (Armenians) handed over to the Azerbaijani riot police, the participants of the "RING" operation. Who went missing. Let's not talk about it. Not boys, after all. I want to be confident in my friends. Whatever they use us, for the sake of keeping Azerbaijan in its arms. There are other ways.
            1. Seal
              Seal 21 March 2016 01: 08
              0
              Well, you will remember how many people (Armenians) were handed over to the Azerbaijani riot police, the participants in the "RING" operation.

              Yes, you have a conscience. You, who most actively contributed to the incitement of the war between Russia and Turkey in August-October 1914 and thereby helped the Germans to drag Turkey into the First World War on the side of Germany. If Turkey had remained neutral, then, as Ludendorff said after the war, Germany would have surrendered by the end of 1916. After which we would calmly take the straits from Turkey. But the Armenians put their own interests first. You didn't need a strong victorious Russia. You needed a victorious at its last gasp, bloodless Russia, which you can send in three letters under the pretext of "bloody tsarism" and, with the help of the United States, begin to build a Great Armenia.
              You have used us in your interests for 200 years. It’s not a sin for us to use you at least once in our interests. Nothing personal, but Russia's interests are above the interests of Armenia hi
              1. garnik64
                garnik64 21 March 2016 23: 18
                -1
                Comrade, this is 1990 -1994. Stop now, give out your fabrications for the truth.
        2. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 07: 35
          0
          Who pleaded not guilty, and the accomplice had an "iron" alibi.
          That is, you now express no confidence in the investigative actions of the investigative brigade of the KGB of the USSR and the decision of the Supreme Court of the USSR
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zig9t-c5Mg
    2. Seal
      Seal 21 March 2016 00: 19
      +2
      Okay, for the very near Count Loris-Melikov, the first Minister of Internal Affairs of Russia
      What did the true Russian emperor Alexander III first ascend to the throne do? First of all, the true Russian Emperor Alexander III kicked Loris-Melikov. And the new Minister of the Interior, Count Tolstoy (not a writer), was given the task of expelling all Armenians from more or less significant government posts.

      Lazarev brothers

      The most "important" brother in the period 1828-1829 led the fleet left for the blockade of the Dardanelles. And when, on October 8 (old style), 1831, in the cruise chamber of the 84-gun battleship Ferschampenoise, which was stationed on the Small Kronstadt roadstead and just from the Mediterranean Sea, a fire broke out, the ship burned out to the bottom. Killed 48 crew members and a lieutenant of the naval artillery corps not from the crew, trying to save the drowning. It is difficult to describe the anger of Emperor Nicholas I, who was informed about the death of one of the best ships at the home quay wall. When the sovereign found out that Ferschampenoise was also carrying on its board a certain load of delicate papers, his indignation grew into a firm conviction: the ship was deliberately burned in order to destroy those papers! Only in 1855, the historiographer of the Russian fleet, Alexander Petrovich Sokolov, in his "Chronicle of the wrecks and fires of the ships of the Russian fleet from its beginning to 1854" lifted the curtain over what was considered a terrible state secret: "Among other ship and crew affairs, the archive of the economic part of the sailing squadron in Greek waters, who was on the ship for delivery to Russia. This was the first censorship allowed mention of what exactly was on board the burned-out Ferschampenoise. This allows a different look at the reasons that forced the emperor to turn his famous "Basilisk gaze" to the case of the death of "Ferschampenoise". When Rear Admiral Mikhail Lazarev reported to the emperor the conclusions of the commission that the fire had arisen due to spontaneous combustion, Nikolai replied: "And I tell you that the ship was burned!" They burned all financial documents for the entire time of the sailing of the squadron that blocked the Dardanelles Strait, the maintenance costs of which (under the command of Lazarev) exceeded the planned ones several times. And any check could easily reveal this corruption. But the pike was thrown into the water. It was appointed to investigate the causes of the fire ... it was Lazarev who was appointed.
      I can still make out Baghramyan, Isakov (Isakyan) - order! lol
      1. cyber
        cyber 21 March 2016 06: 20
        0
        Of course it’s interesting. I order Baghramyan and Isakyan! winked
        1. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 22: 18
          +2
          About Baghramyan.
          That's about Baghramyan. In 1941, he was the chief of the operations department of the Headquarters of the Southwestern Front at Kirponos. But given that the head of staff was our former military attache in Berlin (yes, the same Tupikov who warned) General V.I. Tupikov, who was appointed July 29, 1941, and before that, since 1940, was our military attache in Berlin. Yes, before being sent to Berlin, the cleverest military specialist V.I. Tupikov was the chief of staff of the Kharkov Military District. But Kharkov VO is the territory east of Kiev VO. That is, the territory of the Kiev Military District at the time of its appointment V.I. Tupikov did not know, but simply did not have time to study. But what about Baghramyan? But for Baghramyan, the Kiev Military District is almost native. Indeed, back in June 19434, he was appointed chief of staff of the 5th Cavalry Division (Kiev Military District).
          Baghramyan was lucky in the early 30s. He was lucky to get to the cavalry advanced training courses for the commanding staff, where his classmates were G.K. Zhukov, K.K. Rokossovsky and others.
          Upon their completion, in October 1936 he was appointed to the post of chief of the operational department of the army headquarters. During the mass purges of the Red Army, he, who served in the "bourgeois Armenian army", was collected incriminating material, but the future commander was saved thanks to the intercession of A. I. Mikoyan.
          Then again the Academy, after which Baghramyan again returned to the Kiev Military District.
          In September 1940, he finally received an assignment to the army for the post of chief of the operational department of the headquarters of the 12th Army of the Kiev Special Military District (KOVO). Already in November 1940 he was transferred to the post of chief of operations department - deputy chief of staff of the Kiev Special Military District.
          That is, no one knew better than Baghramyan the region of Kiev HE. And it was Baghramyan who was the chief of the operational department of the headquarters of the Kiev Military District from the beginning of the war until the death of the leadership of the South-Western Front.
          It would seem that in a situation where the head of the Headquarters of the South-Western Front, the cleverest Vasily Ivanovich Tupikov, does not know much about the theater of operations, because he himself did not serve in those places at all, the main role was to be played by the chief of the operations department of the headquarters of the South-Western Front Baghramyan, for whom this theater of operations is his home. But .... but no role of Baghramyan in August September 1941 on the South-Western Front is not visible at all. Moreover, the head of the operations department of the Headquarters of the Southwestern Front at the most critical time for the front generally turned out to be far from the Headquarters of the front, behind the line of the front in Headquarters with the Commander-in-Chief of the South-West Troops Marshal of the Soviet Union S.K. Tymoshenko with a certain "special task."
          In general, in 1941 Baghramyan did nothing to withstand the Kirponos South-Western Front, and in 1942, already being the chief of staff of the new South-Western Front, Tymoshenko also substituted this front. But Mr. Baghramyan began to win only when we drove the enemy to the West. And then always having a larger number than the Germans. And not himself, but under the guidance of some real military commander, whose instructions he (Baghramyan) carried out. Baghramyan did not carry out any independent operations. Maybe that's why he, being the front commander, remained in the generals, not having received the rank of Marshal. And the Order of Victory, which was received by real commanders, Baghramyan did not receive.
        2. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 22: 20
          +1
          2. From the memoirs of Baghramyan.
          With the beginning of World War II, the Kiev Special Military District was transformed into the Southwestern Front. While remaining in the position of the chief of the operational management - deputy chief of staff of this front, I.Kh. Bagramyan during the Lviv-Chernivtsi (June-July) strategic defensive operation participated in organizing the first major counterattacks of the mechanized corps in the region of Dubno, Rivne and Lutsk. However, the Soviet troops failed to repulse the enemy’s blow in the border battle. On July 6, 1941, the 1st tank group of Kleist immediately broke through the line of fortifications on the old state border, where the Soviet command hoped to create a solid defense and stabilize the front line. The defensive operation in Western Ukraine ended in the defeat of Soviet troops. Northern Bukovina and Western Ukraine were left, the enemy went to Kiev. Although the defense in Ukraine still retained some stability, the troops of the southwestern strategic direction were not able to use their numerical superiority to repel the attacks of the aggressor. Possessing the initiative and preserving the offensive capabilities, the German Army Group South was preparing a strike from the area west of Kiev south to the rear of the South-Western and Southern Fronts.

          Well, that’s all, with the exception of the very first that “With the beginning of World War II, the Kiev Special Military District was transformed into the South-Western Front” - true. The complete failure of Baghramyan. But the South-Western Front was formed on June 19. Memoirs of Baghramyan himself.
          “Among the requests received on June 19, I remember the telegram of the new commander of the 12th Army, General Ponedelin. He asked the commander in which cases anti-aircraft artillery could open fire if German planes invaded our airspace.
          General Kirponos ordered the chief of staff to reply as follows:
          "The fire can be opened:
          a) if a special order is given to the Military Council of the district;
          b) upon the announcement of mobilization;
          c) when the cover plan is put into effect, unless there is a special prohibition;
          d) The Military Council of the 12th Army knows that we do not fire anti-aircraft artillery on German aircraft in peacetime. "
          This answer is yet another convincing evidence that the Soviet side did everything possible to avoid an armed conflict, not to give the Nazis the slightest reason for violating the non-aggression pact, although it took increasingly decisive measures in case the conflict could not be avoided.
          On the same morning (let me remind you that we are talking about June 19, 1941 - my footnote), a telegram from G.K. Zhukov arrived from Moscow that the People's Commissar of Defense had ordered the creation of a front-line administration and by June 22, transfer it to Tarnopol. It was ordered to keep this "in the strictest confidence, about which to warn the personnel of the district headquarters." We already had everything thought out in advance. According to our calculations, it was not only difficult, but also too noticeable to transport the entire front-line administration by road. Therefore, it was decided to use the railway as well. The commander of the district ordered a train echelon to be sent from Kiev on the evening of June 20, and the main headquarters convoy - in the morning of the next day.
        3. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 22: 21
          0
          3. - What about the troops? I asked the chief of staff.
          - So far, an order has been received only regarding the district administrative apparatus. And you need to, without wasting time, prepare all the documentation on the district’s operational plan, including the state border cover plan, and send it by train to the General Staff no later than June XNUMX by train. After that, together with your department, you will follow us in motor vehicles so that you can be at the place in Tarnopol no later than seven in the morning of June twenty-second.
          Naturally, I expressed surprise that the command leaves for the command post without an operations department: after all, if something happens, it will not be able to command troops without at hand either officer operators or secret communication specialists. But the proposal to leave two or three commanders with me, and the others, headed by my deputy, to be sent simultaneously with the Military Council, was not approved by Purkaev. This is not necessary, he explained: by the morning of June 22 the operations department will already be in Tarnopol, and before that it is unlikely to be needed.
          “So everything is going according to plan,” the general impatiently waved his hand, making it clear that there was nothing to waste time talking.
          In the evening of June 20, we spent departing by train, and in the middle of the next day - leaving by car.
          In fact, it turns out that the Kiev district was saved only by the fact that the Germans delivered the main blow to the north, towards Pavlov. Since according to Purkayev’s explanations given to them after the war, due to the fact that the District Headquarters (KOVO) had essentially ceased to exist, and the Headquarters of the South-Western Front had not yet begun work, since the operations department together with the encryption department were “where “Something on the way, at the entrance to Tarnopol”, there was no one to decrypt the encryption coming from Moscow. But since Moscow also phoned all the western military districts by phone, the Chief of Staff of the KOVO Purkaev began phoning the commanders of the armies and individual corps. However, as Purkayev writes in an explanatory note about the outbreak of war, some commanders refused to accept the order of putting them on alert by telephone, saying that the encryption should be transmitted in the established order.
          The operational and encryption departments of KOVO (SWF) with Bagramyan headed, I repeat, at that time traveled along the roads of Ukraine. On purpose or not, I don’t know. But I only know that the second great Armenian Isakov came to work only after lunch on June 22, 1941.
        4. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 22: 25
          +1
          4. Let us consider the service of the Khrushchov jo after l. Baghramyan after the death of IV Stalin.

          As Marshal Zhukov became Minister of Defense, Khrushchov quickly slipped Baghramyan into his Deputies.
          We look at the dates.
          a) Zhukov became Minister of Defense in February 1955.
          b) March 11, 1955 I. Kh. Bagramyan was awarded the title of Marshal of the Soviet Union and he was soon appointed Deputy Minister of Defense. That is, he was appointed Deputy Zhukov.

          But Zhukov, an experienced apparatchik, quickly figured out that his former comrade-in-arms was no longer his comrade-in-arms, but Khrushchev’s jo-liz, who was assigned to follow him. Therefore, Zhukov, at the first opportunity, quickly got rid of this spy, translating Baghramyan into science. So on June 8, 1956 I. Kh. Bagramyan became the head of the Higher Military Academy named after K. E. Voroshilov (in 1958 it was renamed the Military Academy of the General Staff).
          Khrushchov then did not resist the displacement of his mother, because he himself (Khrushchov) badly needed the help of the authoritative and respected fighting Soviet Marshal Zhukov, and not the unauthorized Baghramyan in the army, who received the marshal from the hands of Khrushchov after Stalin's death. Moreover, in the fall of 1956 an uprising began in Hungary, which Zhukov abandoned to suppress, and in the summer of 1957 the Plenum of the Central Committee of the CPSU was dangerous for Khrushchov. That is, Zhukov at that moment needed Khrushchov like air, so Khrushchov quite calmly swallowed the fact that Zhukov had expelled his appointee from the post of his deputy.
          But then the Plenum passed, and it was extremely successful for Khrushchov. The so-called "anti-party group of Malenkov, Molotov, Kaganovich and Shipilov, who joined them," was overthrown by Khrushchov with the help of Zhukov. And, as they say, "the Moor has done his job - the Moor can leave" - ​​soon Khrushchov got rid of Zhukov as well.
          And as soon as Khrushchov removed Zhukov from the post of Minister of Defense, what did he do?
          That's right, Khrushchov immediately returned Bagramyan the position of Deputy Minister of Defense.
          We look at the dates:

          1) Zhukov was dismissed in March 1958
          2) Baghramyan returned to the chair of the Deputy Minister of Defense on June 2, 1958.

          But now Baghramyan didn’t just take the seat of the Deputy Minister of Defense for combat drill or combat training.
          Baghramyan, as befits a sneaky Armenian, was again appointed Deputy Minister of Defense of the USSR on June 2, 1958 - Head of Logistics of the USSR Ministry of Defense (later Deputy Minister of Defense of the USSR - Chief of Logistics of the Armed Forces of the USSR).
          That is, Baghramyan became the HEAD OF THE SOVIET UNION in the rank of Deputy Minister of Defense.

          About the operation "Anadyr". Since the Anadyr operation was carried out precisely by the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union and consisted in the movement of a certain kind of military cargo to Cuba, it is not surprising that the head of this operation was the one who was entitled to this by his post - Deputy Minister of Defense of the USSR - Chief of Logistics of the Armed Forces of the USSR Bagramyan
        5. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 22: 28
          0
          The reasons for the survival of Baghramyan:
          1. Personal and long-standing acquaintance with Zhukov.

          Indeed, we have long been familiar with Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov. At one time, both commanded the cavalry regiments, and in 1924-1925 they studied together in Leningrad, at the Higher Cavalry School. But I really didn’t even want to use, so to speak, personal connections. And then my friend Major General Rubtsov arrives in Moscow for his family. We studied together at the academy, and then worked as teachers. A few months ago, Rubtsov left for the army. This man was a capable, great connoisseur of the headquarters service (he arrived at the academy from the post of chief of staff of the rifle corps). The meeting brought us mutual joy.
          “Well, where, where and what are you doing now?” I asked.
          “Zhukov’s,” he answered proudly. - Head of Operations.
          - Oh, and you're lucky! But I just can’t escape.
          - Listen, - Rubtsov caught fire, - ask George Konstantinovich. Will help. He knows you well. In short, write a letter quickly, and I will hand it to him personally.
          On that and decided. The letter was short, in the form of a report: "The entire army service took place in the troops, I have a passionate desire to return to duty ... I agree to any position."

          ... .. Holiday days flashed quickly. However, even during the rest, the thought did not leave me: what will Zhukov answer me? When he had already lost hope, a telegram arrived. Army General Zhukov reported that at his request the People's Commissar appointed me to the troops of the Kiev Special Military District. I was ordered to immediately leave for Kiev.


          2. With Konev.
          In these disturbing June days, I especially remember one meeting. Plunging headlong into work, I did not notice how someone entered my office.
          - Hello, Comrade Colonel! - I suddenly heard a resounding cheerful voice.
          Looking up from the map, he saw before him his old friend. It was Lieutenant General Ivan Stepanovich Konev. For the first time, fate brought us back in 1927, in the Gurzuf sanatorium, where we met quite closely [80]. My new comrade was distinguished by a straightforward character and wit. He read a lot, devoting it to every free minute.
          We talked a lot about the problems of army life that troubled us. As a result of these conversations, I had an opinion about Ivan Stepanovich as an original and creatively thinking commander who was not only a great expert in tactics, but also a good methodologist of combat training of troops. I noticed in Konev some special ability to distinguish in the development of military affairs the sprouts of a new, progressive one. Everything stereotyped caused extreme irritation in him, and here even a friendly disposition did not save from harsh criticism.
          We somehow made friends easily. This was facilitated, of course, by the fact that our service interests coincided in many respects: both then commanded regiments.
          A few years later we met at the walls of the MV Frunze Academy. Although I studied at the main faculty, and he studied at a special faculty, we found time for a friendly conversation.
        6. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 22: 28
          0
          3. With Antonov (Chief of the General Staff at the end of the war, chief of the Operations Directorate of the General Staff since December 1942).
          “And in my place arrived my classmate at the Academy of the General Staff, Major General Alexei Innokentievich Antonov. He was surprisingly similar to his predecessor in character, in intelligence, and in education. Even in appearance, there was some elusive resemblance between him and Malaidin. Before military service, Antonov also managed to complete the full course of the gymnasium and the first course of the forestry institute. He, just like Malandin, graduated from the cadet school in World War I. Since 1919 - in the Red Army, on the fronts of the Civil War. We first met him in 1936 at the Academy of the General Staff, where he arrived from the post of chief of the operational department of the Kharkov Military District. But he did not even have time to study, and the year he was urgently recalled from the academy and appointed chief of staff of the metropolitan military district. Then he taught at the Military Academy named after M.V. Frunze. And shortly before the war, fate brought us together again.
          Solving organizational and mobilization issues, Antonov was able to quickly understand the situation and appreciate the importance of the border cover plan. He has provided tremendous help in all our work.


          4. With others.
          Spacious study familiar from previous visits. The commander was sitting at the table and sweepingly wrote the resolution on some document. Nearby lay an open folder with papers waiting for their turn. Seeing me, Zhukov threw a pencil on the table. The stern face softened with a smile. He got up, held out his hand:
          - Hello, Ivan Khristoforovich. You and I haven't seen each other for a long time.
          I again remembered the Higher Cavalry School in Leningrad. A. I. Eremenko, G. K. Zhukov, N. L. Mishuk, K. K. Rokossovsky, P. L. Romanenko, Ya. A. Savelyev, S. P. Sinyakov, V. I were in our study group Chistyakov. There were longer conversations with the assistant to the commander for military educational institutions, General Vasily Yevlampievich Belokoskov, the chief of artillery, Lieutenant General Nikolai Dmitrievich Yakovlev, the head of the political propaganda department, brigade commissar Andrei Ivanovich Mikhailov, the deputy chief of staff of the district for organizational and mobilization issues - work at the Academy of the General Staff - Lieutenant General German Kapitonovich Malandin, chief of communications Major General Dmitry Mikhailovich Dobykin and other persons in the district’s leadership.


          So, acquaintances, acquaintances, acquaintances.
        7. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 23: 27
          0
          Isakov (Isakyan).

          For a start, it is not clear where Isakyan (Isakov) was all the same at the very moment the war began

          People's Commissar Kuznetsov writes (about the events 3-4 days before the start of the war).

          “I invited Rear Admiral V.A.Alafuzov to my place - he replaced Admiral I.S. Isakov who had left for the Black Sea.
          - Is it possible to interrupt the teaching in the Odessa region? It was June 16 or 17.
          On June 18, the Black Sea Fleet returned from the exercise area to Sevastopol and received an order to remain in readiness No. 2. "

          So, we see that on June 18 the fleet returned to Sevastopol !! Where is Isakov? On the same day, he urgently left (flew) to Moscow, without even having analyzed the exercises !! And where did it go?

          Read on to Kuznetsov.

          "On June 22, at 12 noon, the Soviet government addressed the people with a statement about the treacherous attack by fascist Germany. The whole country learned about the outbreak of war.
          I don’t remember, on my own initiative or on behalf of Stalin in the evening I contacted V.M. Molotov. He oversaw our people's commissariat, solving current issues. The conversation concerned the situation in the fleets. I order the deputy chief of the Main Naval Staff, V.A. Alafuzov, to inform the General Staff more often about what is happening in the fleets. Himself, in turn, tried to get the latest data on the situation on land fronts.
          My deputy admiral I. S. Isakov, who arrived from Sevastopol, entered the office with a quick, energetic step. Instead of the usual report on his trip and the Black Sea Fleet’s teachings conducted under his leadership, he asked for time to understand the situation and only then report on his thoughts.
          - Good, - I agreed.


          Like this. Comrade flew out Isakov from Sevastopol to Moscow on June 18, and he deigned to appear in the People’s Commissariat of the Navy only in the EVENING on June 22. The war went on for almost a day !!! Where did the chief of the General Staff of the Navy of the USSR, Comrade Isakov, oversleep the beginning of the Great Patriotic War?
          About this, he himself and history are silent !!!
        8. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 23: 28
          0
          Further. Read.
          "At the beginning of the Second World War, 1941, Isakov was already an Admiral and Deputy People's Commissar of the USSR Navy. From the very beginning of the war, Isakov coordinated the combat operations of the Baltic Fleet, Ladoga and Chud flotillas with ground forces in the defense of Leningrad in Leningrad."

          Let's dwell on this for now and see what kind of powerful flotillas were Chudskaya and Ilmenskaya, that a naval commander with the rank of Admiral and the posts of Chief of the Main Staff of the Navy and Deputy Chief of Staff of the Navy should "coordinate" their combat operations. Commissar.
          Wonderful military flotilla.
          In early July 1941, the division made its first voyage along Lake Peipsi. The core of the division was training ships: Narva and Plyussa were wheeled steamers with a displacement of less than three hundred tons. And “Issa” and “Embach” - screw gunboats, had armored cuttings and platforms for two guns. But there were no artillery weapons on the cannons or on the ships. The fuel for the ship's boilers was ... firewood.
          On July 8, 1941, the flotilla base was relocated from Tartu to Gdov. Fascist troops were approaching the ancient city. It was necessary to support the lakeside flank of the Red Army with fire. And there’s not a single gun on the flotilla.
          Ilmen Military Flotilla.
          Composition: Three river tugboats of the Volkhovo-Ilmen Shipping Company Izhorets No. 9, Ulyanovsk and Karakozov, two boats of the KM type No. 99 and 100, two boats ZIS No. 306 and 309, one boat of the Soltsy type flue. Izhorets No. 9 had one 45-mm anti-tank gun on wheels, one 82-mm mortar, one quad anti-aircraft machine gun mount, two M-1 machine guns on Sokolov’s machine gun, one light machine gun and rifles. Ulyanovsk and Karakozov were armed with one 82-mm mortar, one quad anti-aircraft machine-gun mount, two Maxim machine guns, one light machine gun and one rifle.

          Yes, this is the true level of the Deputy People’s Commissar. :)))
        9. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 23: 30
          0
          The Ladoga military flotilla was certainly stronger than the Peipsi and Ilmensky flotillas. But in 1941, she was mainly involved in escorting civilian ships with the population and valuables being evacuated from Leningrad, and delivering food and ammunition to Leningrad. And when on November 17, 1941 Lake Ladoga froze completely, the operations of the Ladoga military flotilla ceased.

          Well, in 1942, Isakov was engaged only in the south.

          How did he coordinate the Baltic Fleet? Well, firstly, Zhukov has already told how, when he arrived in Leningrad in September 1941, he simply drove the sailors, who, in his opinion, did nothing to defend the city.
          And secondly, it would be logical to assume that Admiral Tributs, who had been the Baltic Fleet Commander throughout the war, at least somehow noted Isakov’s coordinating and guiding role in his post-war memoirs. But no. The Tributus does not tell us anything like this in its memoirs. He generally does not mention any instructions, orders or advice of Isakov.
        10. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 23: 37
          0
          And about the Kerch operation, with which Isakov also managed to lead.
          Alas. But there was probably no more mediocre landing operation than Kerch’s, and probably won’t. Then everyone dumped in bad weather. Yes, the wind was. But in the northern part of the Kerch Strait, where the main landing was carried out, the wind does not disperse the wave. The reason for the failure of the operation? Yes, the fleet is completely unprepared for this landing operation. On the eve of the operation, a number of large ships left with replenishment in Sevastopol. It was assumed that they would have time to return and take part in the Kerch operation. But the ships for some reason did not return from Sevastopol. More precisely, they returned, but then, when they were not needed, because the Kerch Strait was FROZEN. By the way, it was on ice, without any landing operation, that the bulk of our troops crossed to the Crimean coast.
          What did the Deputy People’s Commissar - the Chief of the General Staff of the Navy Admiral Isakov, who was actually assigned to ORGANIZE the airborne crossing - is unknown. Either he withdrew and did not give orders, or he gave orders, but his orders were not executed by his subordinates. Both are equally bad.
          After that, somewhere in the Caucasus, he came under fire (or bombing) from a German plane and Isakov's leg was torn off. He was treated for a long time, but then I. Stalin allowed him to take up the former position of Chief of Staff of the Navy. What else he "coordinated" there is unknown. Not one of the commanders of the fleets mentions any valuable guidance from Isakov.
          But he received the title of Admiral of the USSR Fleet, and after the war, in 1965, the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. For the successes achieved in the "leadership of the fleets" recourse
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. genisis
        genisis 21 March 2016 10: 30
        +2
        Let's have Amazasp Babajanyan, Nelson Stepanyan, Amayak Babayan
        1. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 23: 46
          0
          Eat what they give.
          General Bagrad Isaakovich Arushanyan
          At the beginning of World War II, the 12th Army, where Arushanyan was the chief of staff, was included in the South-Western Front, which included in the border battles west of the city of Stanislav, and in the second half of July the army as part of the Southern Front defended in Uman the direction during which Arushanyan, being the chief of staff of the 12th army, was surrounded in the area of ​​the city of Uman. In early September, together with a group of 5 fighters, he left the encirclement and crossed the front line near the village of Ozyory on the Dnieper. On October 13, 1941, by the order of the commander of the troops of the Southwestern Front, S.K. Timoshenko Arushanyan was appointed to the post of chief of rear services - deputy commander of the troops of the Southwestern Front. Well, here again, as Armenians - so immediately to the post of chief of rear services. Or the chief of staff. And then they are also proud that the Armenians have many heroes and generals. Of course, if all the rear and headquarters are occupied by the Armenians.
          And from the beginning of November, he served as chief of staff of the 56th Army, which participated in the Rostov defensive and offensive operations, and then in the offensive and defense in the Taganrog region and in the Rostov direction.
          In June 1942, Bagrad Isaakovich Arushanyan was arrested by the NKVD, the reason for which was his being surrounded in 1941. At the end of the investigation in July 1943, Arushanyan was sent to study at an accelerated course at the K.E. Voroshilov Higher Military Academy, after which in December 1943 he was appointed to the post of deputy commander of the 4th shock army (1st Baltic Front ) involved in the Nevel, Polotsk and Rezhitsky-Dvinsk offensive operations. From August 10 to August 23, 1944 he commanded the 14th Rifle Corps, which participated in the final stage of the Belarusian offensive operation and the liberation of the city of Viesite.
          On August 23, 1944 Arushanyan was appointed commander of the 11th Guards Rifle Corps (2nd Guards Army, 1st Baltic Front), which participated in the Baltic offensive operation, for which Bagrat Isaakovich Arushanyan was awarded the Order of the Red Banner. In December, the 2nd Guards Army, which included a corps under the command of Arushanyan, was included in the 3rd Belorussian Front and soon took part in the East Prussian offensive operation and the liberation of the city of Darkmen and the village of Nordenburg. For the exemplary fulfillment of the command tasks during the capture of the city and the fortress of Pillau, the 11th Guards Rifle Corps was awarded the Order of Suvorov of the 2nd degree, and Lieutenant General Arushanyan - the Order of Kutuzov of the 2nd degree.
          Like this. The first stage of the war is one defeat.
          Then a whole year - the most intense period of the war, was under investigation. Then, apparently at the request of his former boss, Bagramyan was released. Yes, how successful - right to the academy. And he returned to the troops already in December 1943, when ours already inexorably drove the Germans.
          1. genisis
            genisis 22 March 2016 00: 05
            +2
            Your slops - eat yourself.
            I had enough of your vile lies about the 89 Taman Division.
            The dead do not shame
          2. genisis
            genisis 22 March 2016 01: 46
            +1
            You have already sat down in a puddle with the 89 Taman Division, now you will be educated about Ivan Khristoforovich, and documented. No matter how you are now easily trying to throw dirt on people who are no longer there, documents always speak much better.
            1. genisis
              genisis 22 March 2016 01: 53
              +1
              But the false Nazi, Sergei Petrovich, knows much better than Mehlis and Popov.
      4. garnik64
        garnik64 21 March 2016 23: 40
        +1
        The historian Shirokrad has a different opinion about Alexander 3.
    3. Seal
      Seal 21 March 2016 00: 35
      +1
      Quote: Karlos
      , March 5, USSR


      Why do you climb everywhere with yours: Yes, you know how many marshals Armenia gave during the war? Yes, we know! NO ONE !! All are post-war Khrushchev political marshals. There are NO Stalinist marshals among Armenians!

      It seems that we should be grateful to you for the fact that the Armenians deigned to go to the Great Patriotic War. None of all the peoples of the USSR, who sent their representatives to the front, demands that we, the Russians, be grateful to them for taking part in the war. Nobody except Armenians !! Armenians want their "merits" to stand apart. Moreover, they position themselves that they were our "ally". What kind of "allies" you are. The enemy has declared war on the whole country. You are part of the country. You were obliged to go to war. And if you refused, you would all be shot as deserters. And you demand gratitude for the fact that you went to war? By the way, why do you demand gratitude from us? If you stand on your hummock, then Hitler's Germany did not attack the RSFSR. Hitlerite Germany crossed the borders of Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldavia. So demand from them the recognition of your merits. And Russia, as well as Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan and so on, provided assistance to Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and Moldova in repelling the aggression of Hitler's Germany.
      JV Stalin absolutely rightly believed that the rank of marshal can be awarded only during the war for a specific military leadership. What such previously unknown military achievements and merits were suddenly discovered in 1955 by Baghramyan, Biryuzov, Grechko, Eremenko, Moskalenko, Chuikov, that they were all awarded the title of marshals in 1955? What, some kind of commander's decisions surfaced that no one knew about until 1955? There is simply no military political leadership, in the person of Khrushchov, bought. To oppose them to military marshals and especially Zhukov. And Baghramyan had to be shot twice. The first time was in September 1941, when he, the head of the operations department of the Front Headquarters, abandoned his front headquarters and "miraculously got out of the front line." The second time Stalin himself wanted to shoot him for the Kharkov operation. More than a million soldiers of the Red Army have blood on Baghramyan. And for what such previously unknown merits by the Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of May 7, 1965 "for the skillful leadership of the troops, courage, courage and heroism shown in the fight against the German fascist invaders, and in commemoration of the 20th anniversary of the Victory of the Soviet people in the Great Patriotic War war "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Isakov I.S. was awarded the title of Hero of the Soviet Union. Well, in commemoration - that's understandable. Can you give at least one example of either "skillful leadership of the troops" or "courage, courage and heroism" displayed by Isakov in the fight against the German fascist invaders? You are simply unable to understand the Russian state mentality with your mercenary mentality. It is our duty to speak up for the defense of the Motherland. This is a sacred duty. We are not proud of this. How can you be proud of fulfilling a holy duty? On the contrary, we despise and shoot those who did not. And you, with your mentality, elevate this duty to yourself.
      1. hardrokc
        hardrokc 21 March 2016 01: 11
        0
        Quote: Seal
        Stalin absolutely correctly believed that the rank of Marshal could be appropriated only during the war for a specific military growth.

        Yes? But what about:
        K. E. Voroshilov
        M.N. Tukhachevsky
        S. M. Budyonny
        A. I. Egorov
        W. K. Blucher
        S.K. Timoshenko
        G. I. Kulik
        B. M. Shaposhnikov
        L. P. Beria
        N. A. Bulganin
        All of them received the rank of marshals in peacetime and under Dzhugashvili.
        1. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 02: 27
          +1
          K. E. Voroshilov; M.N. Tukhachevsky; S. M. Budyonny; A. I. Egorov; W. K. Blucher;
          S. K. Timoshenko; G.I. Kulik; B. M. Shaposhnikov
          these are all pre-war marshals.
          L.P. Beria received the rank of Marshal before the Second World War ended. Yes, and on a special occasion. July 9, 1945, when replacing the special titles of state security with the military, L.P. Beria was awarded the title of Marshal of the Soviet Union.

          So, the only exception is Bulganin. He received the title of Marshal along with the post of Minister of Defense of the USSR.
  • pooop
    pooop 20 March 2016 01: 06
    -2
    Provocative article. In the discussion, nothing but a skirmish (with an attempt to figure out who is good and who is bad), I did not read. Sense to post this on the site?
  • Bakht
    Bakht 20 March 2016 01: 13
    0
    All this is nonsense and a game of toy soldiers. Arrow attack draw on the map. All became Napoleons. Especially Khramchikhin. Today, there is tension on the front line. Moreover, everything is lacking for Khramchikhin. For 10 days they entered into a regime of silence. How it will be carried out is still unknown. But then they added kerosene to the fire with this article.
  • Zai pali
    Zai pali 20 March 2016 06: 24
    +2
    There are no fraternal peoples. If the Americans beckon Armenia with sweets, they will immediately sell Russia.
    1. Seal
      Seal 21 March 2016 00: 45
      0
      Yes, they have long been guided by the States.
      We read the Noah's Ark magazine No. 21 (204) for the second half of November (16-30) 2012.
      http://www.noev-kovcheg.ru/mag/2012-21/3548.html
      "Most of all, the US accepts Armenian citizens from the Transcaucasian countries. Among American voters, the number of voting Armenians has grown significantly over 10 years. Thus, in 10 years 19.469 people from among those who moved from Armenia to the US received American passports. For comparison: the number of Georgians, By the way, it should be noted that the number of Armenians receiving American passports is growing from year to year, while in 5840 their number was 9300, according to armtoday.info. , then in 2007 this figure has already reached 1500 thousand. In terms of the number of permits for permanent residence in the United States, the so-called "green cards", emigrants from Armenia are also in first place. In 2010-3, about 2001 thousand citizens of Armenia. In this regard, 2010 was a record year, when their number exceeded 30 thousand. For 2006 years, the number of Georgians who received the "green card" amounted to 6 thousand, and the number of Azerbaijanis - 10 thousand. Since the total number of Caucasians living in the United States, even in this case the number of representatives of the Armenian community exceeds the number of Azerbaijanis and Georgians combined. Moreover, according to official data, the total number of the Armenian community in America in 13 was 11 million, while the number of Azerbaijanis living in the United States is only 2010 thousand, and the number of Georgians is 1.536 thousand. Thus, according to the US Census Bureau, over 23% of the Transcaucasians living in the country are of Armenian origin.

      A rare, even the rarest Armenian family in Russia or Armenia does not have relatives in the United States. I don’t understand how Armenians are allowed to our state secrets.
      By the way, this is precisely why our "most loyal ally" Armenia still refuses to recognize Crimea as part of Russia.
      Armenian lobby in USA does not allow angry It is there the second most powerful after the Israeli.
      ... The Armenian National Committee of America still retains the second line, which, compared to last year, has noticeably increased. So, in the group on Armenian affairs of the Congress today are 113 lawmakers against 92 in 2013. In addition, members of the Armenian caucus are the chairmen of the following committees: on international affairs (the House of Representatives and the Senate), on external allocations (the House of Representatives and the Senate) and the leader of the Senate Democratic majority. The Armenian lobby managed to maintain the allocation by the US government of free financial assistance to Armenia and the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, lobby for the adoption by the state of California of a resolution recognizing the independence of the NKR, as well as the adoption by the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs of the "Act in support of justice on the Armenian Genocide" and the "Act on the Return of Christian Shrines Confiscated by Turkey."
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 21 March 2016 00: 51
        +1
        Quote: Seal
        A rare, even the rarest Armenian family in Russia or Armenia does not have relatives in the United States. I don’t understand how Armenians are allowed to our state secrets.

        I know (saw personally) the director of one very serious FSUE, whose wife lives in America .. and he himself is Ukrainian .. about how belay
        1. Seal
          Seal 21 March 2016 02: 29
          0
          I know (saw personally) the director of one very serious FSUE, whose wife lives in America .. and he himself is Ukrainian .. about how
          Too bad. Not that he is Ukrainian, but that his wife lives in America. By the way, America is big. Cuba is also America hi
      2. garnik64
        garnik64 22 March 2016 00: 17
        0
        By the way, that is why our "most loyal ally" Armenia still refuses to recognize Crimea as part of Russia.
        == Before that there was Nagorno-Karabakh.
        These 1500000 million people have more influence in the United States than 5000000 (according to the "demographer") in Russia. Why?
  • Xent
    Xent 20 March 2016 10: 39
    0
    Quote: cyber
    Armenians now have only enemies around and their very survival depends on Russia! They cannot afford to betray Russia, otherwise Azerbaijan and the Turks will crush them. So their devotion to the CSTO and Russia is based on their weaknesses. Believing without looking back to the weak is very dangerous. If tomorrow Geyropa and the USA offer the Armenians support, they will not need Russia. After all, the United States and Europe will become guarantors of their protection against possible aggression by Turkey and Azerbaijan. Even more so than with Russia.

    Dear Gayropa and America have repeatedly offered and are offering all this to us, but I will answer with the words of a NATO expert, he told me personally. “I respect you for the fact that after all that we do for you, you still remain with Russia and not with us like Georgia, Moldova or the Baltic states. You don't believe NATO can provide you with protection. >>
    1. Bakht
      Bakht 20 March 2016 11: 37
      0
      These are all fairy tales and legends. Who can protect the country? Russia, NATO? Maybe Papua New Guinea? Or the Martians? The mere recognition that someone ensures your independence, speaks of the failure of the state. "I am so tough and strong, but without a prop I will be devoured." In this regard, the position of Azerbaijan is preferable. They may eat us, but we are not counting on anyone. And we do not expect help from anyone.

      Armenia compares favorably with Azerbaijan in that no propaganda slogans replace the benefits for the country. So in this case, Armenia successfully uses material support from the West and military support from Russia. Nothing personal - the country's interests are more important. And who provides these interests is not important.

      At this point in time, support from NATO is disadvantageous to Armenia. We are all on the verge of a big schucher. And the cards have not yet been revealed. Armenia can support Muslims against Christians. And even against the interests of Russia. This has already happened. And more recently.
      1. garnik64
        garnik64 20 March 2016 22: 45
        +1
        That's right. Besides the support of Muslims against Christians. Russia's interests coincide. You want to remind Georgia. Personally, I consider them fraternal people. In a foreign land we are always together. It’s not in vain that when sending troops to Baku, the Georgian soldiers were not given weapons.
  • Bakht
    Bakht 21 March 2016 11: 11
    0
    Jonathan Parish, NATO Deputy Assistant Secretary General for Political and Defense Planning, noted that Armenia is an important partner of NATO, and on behalf of NATO thanked Armenia for participating in NATO operations in Kosovo and Afghanistan

    Armenia supports NATO's efforts in Kosovo. That is, he is on the side of Albanian Muslims against Serbian Christians. Which fully fits into the main trend of the Armenian policy "the right of nations to self-determination".

    So if necessary, Armenia will support Muslims as well. It will be necessary and will join NATO. What is wrong here?
    http://analitikaua.net/2016/na-povestke-otnosheniya-armeniya-nato/
    1. cyber
      cyber 21 March 2016 16: 41
      +1
      Armenians manage to combine CSTO membership and partnership with NATO. Tin ... am
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. garnik64
      garnik64 22 March 2016 00: 31
      0
      And where did you read that the Armenians are for the Albanians, against the Serbs. Rather, they protect the Serbs. A Serb will not fight against the Armenians for Muslims. And the Greek can be included. They have tried it for themselves, they know what it is. The only one they (Armenians) can support from Muslim countries is Iran, Talyshstan against another Muslim country.
  • Seal
    Seal 21 March 2016 15: 54
    -1
    Quote: genisis
    Yes, believe who you want

    That is, are you not going to apologize for the stolen victory?
    1. genisis
      genisis 21 March 2016 16: 06
      +1
      And what will they apologize to me for?
      What do you have to do with the Great Patriotic War?
      And who stole from whom and what?
      You are already full .yuyu carry.
      Find the award sheet of the 89th Taman and 52 Riga, and then. Publish.
      1. Seal
        Seal 21 March 2016 17: 42
        0
        Find the award sheet of the 89th Taman and 52 Riga, and then
        Yes, I found it a long time ago. After which I suspected your sites and your generals of lying. There is no mention of any Humboldheim in describing the merits of the division for awarding the Order of Kutuzov there.
        So, take your .... back to yourself. He honestly earned you. hi
        1. genisis
          genisis 21 March 2016 17: 50
          +1
          Here you are a clown, Sergey Petrovich.
          We have long found a prize sheet, and refer to a newspaper publication.
          According to Suvorov’s mother, there is no documentary evidence, but her pope is Russian, Orthodox.
          So add at the end "I swear by my mother")))
          1. Seal
            Seal 21 March 2016 18: 15
            -1
            Quote: genisis
            Here you are a clown, Sergey Petrovich.


            Well, if someone is a clown, it’s you, dear Nazi.
            So I answered you literally:
            Documentary or other evidence that Avdotya Fedoseevna Manukova was Armenian or semi-Armenian - in nature does not exist.

            Here's how to make one of what I supposedly said
            There is no documentary evidence for Suvorov’s mother


            Well, they had neither shame nor conscience, nor did they.
            And other people's victories steal and .... pah, in short.
          2. Seal
            Seal 21 March 2016 18: 19
            0
            refer to a newspaper publication.

            No, he just hit his head on something today. And three times in a row, no less.
            I repeat specifically for the bruised Nazis.
            I found a decree on awarding the 89th division with the Order of Kutuzov.

            And the publication is a description of the actions of women of the 52nd Guards Riga Rifle Division.
            1. genisis
              genisis 21 March 2016 18: 27
              +1
              If there is documentary evidence of the non-Armenian origin of Suvorov's mother, they will be enough to confirm her origin. Instead of this documentary evidence, the phrase "really" aka "I swear by my mother" was used.
              And the award sheet of 52 divisions was not found by chance? But I also asked about him. Why were 52 awarded the Kutuzov Order? There you will read the answer.
              I say - you are a clown.
              1. Seal
                Seal 21 March 2016 21: 24
                -1
                You will see the clown in the mirror. And the Nazi clown. The 52nd Guards Riga Rifle Division was awarded the Order of Kutuzov II degree 26 April 1945 of the year. Which absolutely excludes the award for Berlin. Most likely for heroism in the battles in Pomerania in January-February 1945.
                1. genisis
                  genisis 21 March 2016 22: 10
                  +3
                  You know, even though you are a rare abomination, but I want to thank you.
                  Thanks to your slops, the heroic deed 89SD went to the site a feat of people and read out orders on the awarding of real people. Not the Nazis like you, but the true sons of their country.
                  And you continue your great-power chauvinism.
                  Thank God the dog barks, the wind wears, the caravan goes
                  1. genisis
                    genisis 21 March 2016 22: 37
                    0
                    And now, clown, read here
                    http://podvignaroda.mil.ru/?#id=44821772&tab=navDetailDocument
                    on rewarding the scout of the 9th battery 531 ap 89 sd for actions before the assault on the fortress in the HUMBOLTSHAYN park
                    1. genisis
                      genisis 21 March 2016 23: 01
                      0
                      And read here, clown
                      1. genisis
                        genisis 21 March 2016 23: 19
                        0
                        Do you have enough documentary evidence of the assault on the fortress in the HUMBOLTSHEIN park with 89SD forces?
                        Even if you apologize for the previously spilled dirt on the fighters of the Taman division, you still remain a vile liar.
  • Xent
    Xent 21 March 2016 18: 15
    -1
    I just didn’t understand why they started comments about the Second World War and the Armenians. Citizens of the Armenian SSR and the Armenians of the USSR participated and died for victory in the Second World War. How many of them were privates, sergeants, junior officers, colonels, generals ... 300 out of 000 died, their memory must be respected.
    My grandfather's father was drafted into the tsarist army in 1914, he started the war in the German front, after the wound continued in the Turkish front, from 1917 he participated in the Armenian-Turkish war. In 1941 he was drafted into the Red Army, 1943 was transferred to the reserve after being wounded, his grandmother’s brother died, the second went missing during the Second World War. I mean that in each of our families there were participants both under the tsarist and communist authorities, and we should respect their memory. And the title here absolutely does not matter !!!
    1. Seal
      Seal 21 March 2016 18: 24
      0
      Citizens of the Armenian SSR and Armenians of the USSR

      But what, did the Armenian SSR have the right to its own citizenship? Why do you think so ? Under the USSR, there was only one citizenship in the whole country - Citizen of the USSR. There were no "citizens of the Armenian SSR" or "citizens of the Georgian SSR" and could not be. There could be citizens of the USSR of Armenian nationality. Or "Citizens of the USSR living in the territory of the Armenian SSR".
    2. Seal
      Seal 31 May 2016 22: 51
      -1
      Yes, total of persons of Armenian nationality were called up no more than 270 thousand. Of these, 83,5 thousand died. Why do you always overestimate your numbers several times. There are also archives of the USSR Ministry of Defense.
  • Xent
    Xent 21 March 2016 18: 28
    +1
    Quote: Seal
    And since when did the Gregorians suddenly become Orthodox? You deny the Holy Trinity !!

    My dear, the Armenian Church has always been Orthodox, the Armenian Orthodox Apostolic Church. And I advise you to read more deeply about our church and its history, I damn it didn’t know that we deny the Holy Trinity ...
    1. Seal
      Seal 21 March 2016 21: 25
      -1
      damn, I didn’t know that we deny the Holy Trinity ...
      Hope you know it now hi
  • cyber
    cyber 21 March 2016 19: 05
    0
    With this article, there is clearly a case where comments are much more interesting than the article itself. Seal and Bakht are especially impressive. Very informative comments!
  • Sergej1972
    Sergej1972 21 March 2016 22: 52
    0
    I can’t find a comment, the author of which claims about 5 million Armenians in the Russian Federation. One must think before citing such figures. In the Russian Federation, from 2,5 to 3 million Armenians. Of these, about half are in the Krasnodar Territory, Rostov Region and Stavropol Territory.
    1. cyber
      cyber 22 March 2016 00: 19
      0
      Search by fragment "there are more than 5 million Armenians in Russia" winked

      About the number of Armenians in Russia, here is the video https://youtu.be/tJgLEdbI2Ak voiced by the amount of 2.5 million Putin and says that there are more Armenians in Russia than in Armenia itself.
    2. cyber
      cyber 22 March 2016 00: 19
      0
      Search by fragment "there are more than 5 million Armenians in Russia" winked

      About the number of Armenians in Russia, here is the video https://youtu.be/tJgLEdbI2Ak voiced by the amount of 2.5 million Putin and says that there are more Armenians in Russia than in Armenia itself.
    3. garnik64
      garnik64 22 March 2016 02: 47
      0
      Seal (1) RU March 20, 2016 19:39 ↑
      And let's hypothetically imagine, for a moment, that the war is between Armenia and Russia. And we have an order of magnitude more Armenians in power and other power structures than Azerbaijanis. Anyway, in our country there are less than two million Azerbaijanis, and our President not so long ago at a meeting with the Armenian President joked that he is actually the President of the Armenians, since there are 2,5 million Armenians in Russia. And this is without taking into account the Armenians of the Rostov Region, Krasnodar and Stavropol Territories, where they have been living for more than 100 years. Given these Armenians (who remain Armenians anyway), there are more than 5 million Armenians in Russia.
  • cyber
    cyber 22 March 2016 00: 27
    0
    I found here a selection of famous and influential Armenians.

    Patrick Devedjian - Member of the French Parliament, former chairman of the Union for the Popular Movement party
    Kenneth Khachikyan is President of the Armenian National Committee of America.
    Varujan Voskanyan - Minister of Economy of Romania, President of the Union of Armenians of Romania.
    Charles Aznavour - the world famous chansonnier (named CNN the greatest pop singer of the XNUMXth century), the National Hero of Armenia.
    Yuri Dzhorkaeff - a famous football player, world and European champion in the French team.
    Edward Jerejyan is a former adviser to US Presidents Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, US Ambassador to Syria and Israel.
    Kirk Kerkorian - billionaire, president of “Trancida Coorporation”, National Hero of Armenia.
    Murad Topalian is a former executive director of the Armenian National Committee of America.
    Benon Sevan is a diplomat, former assistant to the UN Secretary General.
    George Dokmejyan is a former Attorney General and Governor of California.
    Mark Geragos is a well-known lawyer and president of Geragos & Geragos.
    Paul Krekorian is Chairman of the Los Angeles City Council.
    Joseph Hokeydonyan - Assistant Prime Minister of Australia for Civil Service.
    Alain Prost - four-time Formula 1 world champion
    David Nalbandian is a world famous tennis player.
  • Xent
    Xent 22 March 2016 11: 08
    +1
    Quote: Seal
    damn, I didn’t know that we deny the Holy Trinity ...
    Hope you know it now hi

    Dear, do not say something about which you absolutely do not know anything, go learn history Christianity will know a lot of interesting things.