Military Review

Why Night Hunter Loses to Longbow

360



We are accustomed to believe that our helicopters are among the best in the world, and some of them have no equal at all. However, as we know, as a result of a long-term tender, the Indian Ministry of Defense ultimately decided to purchase American Ap-64D helicopters Apache Longbow (“Longbow” from English - “Longbow”), and not Russian Mi- 28HNE "Night Hunter". Is "Apache" superior to our "Mi"? Let's try to figure it out.

It is known that electronic equipment has become an important part of helicopter armament. The effectiveness of reconnaissance and control greatly depends on it. weapons. The beginning of the creation of the Mi-28HE helicopter was a response of the Soviet Union to the appearance of the American Apache helicopter. It should be recalled that the completion of work on the Mi-28HE fell on the period of Russian reforms, when the backlog of our country from the West in electronic, micro- and nano-electronic, as well as computer technologies continued to increase. Today, none of the created models of Russian weapons can not be provided for 100% elements of domestic production. The backward element base causes an increase in the mass, dimensions of the apparatus and its insufficient efficiency and reliability.

Let us consider which combat characteristics of the Apache helicopters forced the Indian Defense Ministry to purchase them.

EXPORT DIGNITY AN-64D "APACH LONGBOU"


The on-board radio-electronic equipment (avionics) of the Apache helicopter and the homing heads of various modifications of the Hellfire missile were developed under conditions of a high level of development of radio-electronic and other technologies. The Hellfire anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) was constantly upgraded and went from a second-generation missile (AGM-114A) from a semi-active laser seeker to a third-generation missile (AGM-114B) using a radar (HL) GPS.

When creating an ATGM complex for the Apache, the task was to significantly reduce the time the helicopter was under enemy sighting when hitting missiles thanks to highly intelligent avionics and the ability to launch a salvo launch of long-range missiles using armored vehicles.

The main advantage of the Apache Longbow helicopter avionics is that by the time the helicopter reaches the optimum height for salvo firing, targets are already determined in order of importance and the missiles are aimed at them. The avionics of the American helicopter, having the ability to determine the differences between anti-aircraft complexes and wheeled vehicles, as well as other targets, significantly increases the survivability of the Apache on the battlefield.

The onboard electronic equipment "Apache Longbow" provides: automatic detection of fixed and mobile targets at the maximum firing range; identification and determination of the degree of importance of each goal in five classes (classifies and allocates priority); tracking of targets, the coordinates of which are relative to the helicopter are transmitted to the rocket, if it is located outside the capture zone by the homing head; the transfer of the exact coordinates of the detected targets to other helicopters, strike aircraft or ground points.

The tandem warhead (warhead) of the Hellfire rocket due to the imperfection of the Russian dynamic defense (DZ) design tanks (the length of the DZ element is 250 mm) has a probability of overcoming it of 0,8–0,9 and armor penetration of 1000 mm, which ensures a high probability of damage to armored vehicles.

The high level of development of electronics allows the US DoD to start adopting a fourth-generation universal universal JAGM ATGM from the 2016 for installation on various ground forces, air force and naval forces. The new missile installed on the Apache will have an 16 km firing range, which will significantly increase the effectiveness of hitting enemy tanks (the firing range of ATGM from aircraft - to 28 km). As a result, thanks to the long-range JAGM missile firing range, the helicopter does not enter the enemy's short-range attack zone.

This ATGM has the following main tactical and technical characteristics: armor penetration - 1200 mm, type of warhead - cumulative tandem / high-explosive fragmentation, type of guidance system - inertial, digital autopilot and multi-mode homing, type of propulsion system - RTDT, launch weight of the rocket - 52 kg , rocket length - 1,72 m, rocket body diameter - 0,178 m.

INSUFFICIENT LIFE

The Mi-28HE helicopter is designed to engage ground and air targets. In the reference editions are listed components of the avionics of this machine. But for some reason there is no assessment of the conformity of the appearance of the avionics with the functional purpose of the attack helicopter. Particular attention in this regard deserves the analysis of the process of destruction of armored vehicles and other ground targets using the “Attack” anti-personnel missile system, which forms the basis of the Mi-28HE ammunition. In this case, to control the rocket, a semi-automatic guidance method is used, in which the gunner holds the sight on the target, and the guidance system automatically leads the rocket to it. The coordinates of the rocket relative to the sighting line are determined using the optical system (located on the Mi-28HE) and the tracer mounted on the rocket. The control commands from the helicopter are transmitted to the rocket by radio.

ATGM “Attack” has the following main characteristics: rocket mass - 42,5 kg, mass transport and launch container with a rocket - 48,5 kg, rocket diameter - 130 mm, firing range - 6000 m, average flight speed - 400 m / s, warhead - tandem, rod, SLM (volume-detonating mixture), warhead weight - 7,4 kg, armor penetration - 800 mm, probability of overcoming the built-in DZ 500 mm long - 0,5.

The use of the Attack ATGM is extremely dangerous, since the total time for a visual search for a ground target and a missile control is longer than the response time of modern air defense systems. Reaction time is understood as the time from the detection of a helicopter to the launch of an anti-aircraft missile from a launcher, which for a short-range anti-aircraft missile system (ZRPK) is 4 – 10 с. The Mi-28HE is most susceptible when firing at a range of 4 – 6 km, which requires an increase in flight altitude to ensure reliable visual contact with the target. With the price of the helicopter equal to the price of 3 – 4 tanks, it is doubtful that the Mi-28HE with the second-generation anti-tank systems will solve the problem of destroying targets, taking into account the cost-effectiveness criterion.

In relation to the solution of a particular combat mission, 7 variants of the Mi-28NE ammunition are provided, consisting of various combinations of obsolete ammunition: ATRA ATGM, Igla anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAM), and unguided aviation missiles (NAR) S-8 and S-13, as well as shots to the 30 mm cannon 2A42. The “Attack” missile can be equipped with either a cumulative tandem warhead for hitting armored vehicles, or a rod for hitting air targets, or a warhead equipped with a volume-detonating mixture to hit ground targets.

In fact, the Attack ATGM is a modernized version of the second-generation Sturm missile. But today it is unacceptable to equip expensive second-generation attack helicopters and anti-aircraft missiles of the second generation. Only the installation of third-generation anti-tank guided missile systems and modern avionics will improve the efficiency of helicopter armament.

The 2А42 helicopter gun has a mass twice that of the Apache helicopter’s M230 gun, and the ammunition of the latter is almost three times that of our helicopter, all with the same caliber. Note that if the M-230 gun was specially designed for the Apache helicopter, the 2-42 was “borrowed” from the BMP-2.

The results of the comparison of weapons and avionics of the Mi-28HE and AN-64D helicopters are not in our favor.

The Igla anti-aircraft missile system was put into service in the 1983 year. The probability of hitting a fighter with a single anti-aircraft Igla guided missile equipped with a thermal homing head is 0,4 – 0,6. The speed of the fighter should not exceed 300 m / s. When shooting targets for thermal noise, the probability of their being hit by one missile defense will be 0,2 – 0,3.

Uncontrolled C-8 aircraft missile (maximum firing range - 4 km) with a cumulative fragmentation warhead has armor penetration 400 mm, which is sufficient for effective destruction of unarmored and lightly armored vehicles. But Mi-28HE using this weapon can be shot down not only by short-range air defense systems, but also as a result of shelling by portable anti-aircraft missile systems ("Stinger", "Mistral") that are in the battle formations of the enemy.

The media notes that the Mi-28НЭ has a high level of combat survivability, the crew cabin of which is fully armored. But is it really? Anything that flies cannot have a serious reservation. What kind of reservation can we talk about when small arms are capable of disabling rotary-winged cars? For example, the 12,7-mm armor-piercing and incendiary bullet (index 7БЗ-1) penetrates the armor with a thickness 20 mm at a distance of 1500 m. At the same time, the crew’s armored box is made of 10-mm aluminum alloy sheets on which ceramic tiles are glued. This design can save the crew from bullets caliber 7,62 mm.

The main drawback of the Mi-28HE is obsolete weapons, unable to hit targets without entering the enemy's short-range air defense system. These helicopters in the ranks of the army aviation are unlikely to make a significant contribution to the aviation support of the Ground Forces.

INFORMATION TO THOUGHT


The meeting of the State Commission, chaired by Air Force Commander Alexander Zelin, at which a decision was made to adopt the Mi-28HE helicopter, took place on the last days of the 2008 of the year. It should be noted that the creation of this machine lasted 30 years. A year before this event, the article “Peculiarities of military scientific research on the substantiation of the concepts and appearance of promising aviation complexes” appeared in the journal “Military Thought” (No. 8 for 2007 year), prepared by a team of authors: Colonel Ph.D. A.L. Gusev, Lieutenant Colonel Ph.D. A.K. Denisenko, Colonel Dr. of Sc. Vs Platunov. In this work, a great deal of attention at the initial stage of the creation of aviation complexes (AK), including helicopters, was paid to military-scientific research related to the substantiation of the concepts, looks and requirements for the promising and modernized AK. It can be assumed that after this article there was no instruction to carry out work on the basis of the modernization of the Mi-28HNE to substantiate the new weapons and the avionics, which would really correspond to the new attack helicopter. It is puzzling that this article, being a breakthrough in the AK methodology, turned out to be unused in relation to the Mi-28H helicopter.

The Mi-28HE helicopter was intended mainly for the defeat of American tanks. But the Americans actively improved the armored vehicles, as a result of which modifications from the M1 to the M1А1, М1А2, М1А2 SEP appeared. To date, thousands of tanks have been upgraded. For example, a Mi-28HE helicopter is completely useless to fire an MkNUMXA1 SEP tank with an Attack missile, which is equipped with a highly effective active protection system. Modernization of the Abrams should end in 2 year.

It must be assumed that the creators of the Mi-28HE did not follow the modernization of foreign armored vehicles and did not carry out adequate technical measures. This is evidenced by the fact that the tactical and technical tasks and tactical and technical requirements issued to the creators of the Mi-28HE in the 1978 year, through the 30 years needed to be clarified. But that did not happen.

What did the Americans achieve by winning the tender, where the attack helicopters were presented? They strengthened the Indian army "Apache" to fight with Chinese tanks. This is a review of the US policy of containing China. Following this event, the Apache helicopter base will be organized, where American instructors will be able to conduct training sessions on helicopter materiel and piloting. Ammunition storage facilities and helicopter repair shops will be equipped.

Russia for a long time gave up its place in India in attack helicopters, which harmed the Mi-28HE brand. This situation requires disassembly and adoption of appropriate decisions in order to prevent a crisis in the creation of domestic attack helicopters.
Author:
Originator:
http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2016-02-26/8_hunter.html
360 comments
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  1. Igor39
    Igor39 28 February 2016 05: 49
    24
    The Hindus chose what they needed.
    1. aktanir
      aktanir 28 February 2016 07: 34
      57
      good material, indeed, it seemed that in a category such as attack helicopters, we were lagging behind. And I think this gap is 10-20 years. Something needs to be done. And it is interesting what then constitutes K-50/52.
      An American Apache with 4 generation birds that hit 16 km with a penetration of 1200 mm of armor will be an extremely dangerous weapon in regional and local conflicts, since it leaves the tanks completely defenseless. Each unit will have to put a medium-range air defense system, which is unlikely.
      1. ArhipenkoAndrey
        ArhipenkoAndrey 28 February 2016 08: 11
        33
        The author has beautifully painted the advantages of an American car and is very adequate to our capabilities, the difference in approach and perception. I agree with the element base and, as a result, the increased possibilities of using Apache helicopters are growing, but 1. their maintenance and service grows at times, in comparison with Russian technology; 2. the use of the latest electronic warfare equipment on the battlefield directly; 3. the use of various means of optical-visual protection, which significantly reduce the range of the power supply, well, etc. plus the "Apache" has much lower combat survivability on the battlefield, and so on. It turns out that India has bought an extremely expensive toy and an almost complete dependence on service and maintenance. And the winnings are very dubious, like a suitcase without a handle.
        1. corporal
          corporal 28 February 2016 09: 12
          27
          Do not forget that "Apache" was used in real battles. And as an advertisement, the appearance of numerous videos on YouTube.
          Quote: ArhipenkoAndrey
          the win is very dubious

          It seems to me that your conclusions are doubtful.
          1. kot11180
            kot11180 28 February 2016 11: 59
            48
            "Apache" was used in real battles with whom? Iraq, Islamic militants. Neither had any serious air defense systems, so this is not an indicator.
            1. avia1991
              avia1991 28 February 2016 12: 36
              23
              Quote: kot11180
              "Apache" was used in real battles with whom?

              Whoever it is used with - it has shown its effectiveness against armored targets in real battles. Was ours used? If you know where - bring info. All the masters are waving flags - especially when a relatively adequate review is published: here it is just a matter of itching to shout "but our deer are faster anyway!" wassat
              1. kot11180
                kot11180 28 February 2016 17: 06
                29
                Against which armored vehicles, specify? T-54, T-55 or old T-72, so I say this is not an indicator. There is no air defense, which means there is no serious opposition. And MI-28 is now used in Syria, but there is no information on the assessment of its actions. Again, it is not used to combat armored vehicles, so comparisons will not work. So I don’t wave the flags.
                1. Lord blacwood
                  Lord blacwood 28 February 2016 20: 04
                  -4
                  As it is, there is no air defense. And "Stingers", "Needles".
                  1. kot11180
                    kot11180 28 February 2016 21: 54
                    +6
                    As it is, there is no air defense. A "Stingers", "Needles" this is the near zone where the meaning of the high-tech filling is lost, and just the vitality is important
                2. avia1991
                  avia1991 28 February 2016 21: 21
                  +2
                  Quote: kot11180
                  MI-28 is now used in Syria, but there is no information on the assessment of its actions.

                  First, is it used? The big question. Secondly, Iraq was going to buy, and it seems that they have already delivered something - but there is no information either.
                  And thirdly, if they are silent, it means that the effectiveness of the application is still in question. Otherwise, for the sake of advertising, they would certainly have painted it - it's not like in the USSR, we have advertising - the engine of trade!
                  1. kot11180
                    kot11180 28 February 2016 21: 57
                    +7
                    Why would they paint. The T-90 there is the BTR-82, but there are a lot of weapons, but they don’t paint much. And I heard that MI-28 in Syria is working from helicopter pilots.
                  2. spravochnik
                    spravochnik 29 February 2016 10: 25
                    +2
                    Quote: avia1991
                    Secondly, Iraq was going to buy, and it seems that they have already delivered something - but there is no information either.

                    As this is not information. There are also photos and videos.
                    1. avia1991
                      avia1991 29 February 2016 20: 33
                      0
                      Quote: spravochnik
                      There are also photos and videos.

                      Quote: vvp2412
                      they cut into them in full and hollow the bearded because of their skill ..

                      I am talking about the analysis of combat use, if anyone does not understand.
                      1. Sergey Teltsov
                        Sergey Teltsov 28 October 2017 14: 06
                        0
                        it’s just ridiculous for you to say “about the analysis of combat use” ..... how are you facing this problem? .... the one-sided article is far from the truth .... only a real war will answer the question of who is right! ... but considering the experience of past wars .... there are simple truths, a weapon that is effective and easy to maintain always wins ..
                  3. vvp2412
                    vvp2412 29 February 2016 10: 52
                    +6
                    You are behind the times. Last year, several pieces were delivered to Iraq. And they cut into them in full and hollow the bearded because of their skill ..
                    In Syria 28 - also appeared on the frames of the Syrian media.
              2. bmv04636
                bmv04636 28 February 2016 17: 20
                +3
                in Iraq is used for your information
              3. spravochnik
                spravochnik 29 February 2016 10: 24
                +1
                Quote: avia1991
                Was ours used? If you know where - bring info. All the masters are waving flags - especially when a relatively adequate review is published: here it is just a matter of itching to shout "but our deer are faster anyway!" wassat

                For example, the Iraqi Air Force is used.
            2. aksakal
              aksakal 28 February 2016 14: 40
              81
              Quote: kot11180
              Iraq, Islamic militants. Neither of them had any serious means of air defense, so this is not an indicator.

              the Houthis do not have them either, but recently they managed to shoot down the Saudi Apache. It seems like a grenade launcher. Does this tell you about the Apache survivability? In my opinion, quite.
              The most offensive thing is that the Russians also have powerful ATGM systems that can hit 10 km away, on the basis of the same Kornet it could be modified, which could be adapted to a helicopter, there are already developed radars of the Crossbow type, which prevents all this from being finalized ? And what does the element base have to do with it? Is the fact that the Russian processor is 2 grams heavier than the American one, is of fundamental importance for helicopters, the carrying capacity of which is calculated in tons? Are you seriously considering making my sneakers laugh? As far as I understand, the author of SABZH begins to talk about the lag in radio electronics, and then he gives an example:
              "The main advantage of the Apache Longbow helicopter avionics is that by the time the helicopter reaches the optimum height for salvo firing, targets are already determined in order of importance and the missiles are aimed at them. The avionics of the American helicopter, having the ability to determine the differences between anti-aircraft complexes and wheeled vehicles, as well as other targets, significantly increases the survivability of the Apache on the battlefield.

              On-board electronic equipment "Apache Longbow" provides: automatic detection of stationary and moving targets at maximum firing range; identification and determination of the degree of importance of each goal in five classes (classifies and prioritizes); tracking goals
              "- dear, what does radio electronics have to do with it? This is a typical software approaching artificial intelligence, which was developed for Apache and not developed for Russian helicopters. That's all. Russia is lagging behind in software? After the unmanned Kamaz, which surpasses almost all foreign It’s not lagging behind ... It's just that helicopter developers have no idea about artificial intelligence, or the grandmother has been squeezed, because such grandmothers are not used to paying for something INTANGIBLE ... Do you remember that a professional helicopter pilot laid out everything about Russian helicopters about garlic? the sloppy joystick told me about how the developers of the same MI-28 did not want to remake their own joint for their native MO, but as soon as the foreign exchange contract loomed, they eliminated everything? It's all from the same opera. The main thing is not the country's defense, but fat in your pocket. And the fat can be hindered by both the alteration of the helicopter due to their own shortcomings, and the need to pay some programmers who need to nii have no relationship. Don't you think it's time to make organizational conclusions about Rosvertol?
              1. avia1991
                avia1991 28 February 2016 15: 37
                40
                Quote: aksakal
                Don't you think that it’s time for Rosvertol to make organizational conclusions?

                What are you speaking about?! everything has already been done there: the "effective manager" Taburetkin - that is, Serdyukov, muzzle has been introduced to the Board of Directors.
              2. TOR2
                TOR2 28 February 2016 15: 44
                22
                Quote: aksakal
                and the need to pay some programmers who have nothing to do with the company
                Here you are right in the top ten. Some programmers will write something, and no more, and then they will just drive the garbage under the TK. In order for the software to be effective, programmers must know the subject area very well. And it is very difficult and costly to raise such a specialist. So it turns out, and for what then gentlemen directors will buy "LAND ROVER" of the maximum configuration.
              3. Stiletto_711
                Stiletto_711 28 February 2016 18: 13
                +5
                Quote: aksakal
                The most offensive thing is that the Russians also have powerful ATGM systems that can hit 10 km away, on the basis of the same "Kornet" could be modified, which could be adapted to a helicopter

                ATGM "Kornet-EM" with ATGM 9M133FM-3, having a range of 10 km, still remains a complex of the 2nd generation and problems with the "time of visual search for ground targets and missile control" about which the author writes about its use will not go anywhere.
                Quote: aksakal
                And what does the elemental base have to do with it?

                Despite the fact that for some types of ERI nomenclature in Russia there are no real (that is, rhythmically issued by enterprises with established mass production) replacements for imported products.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 28 February 2016 18: 17
                  +5
                  What do you dislike about "Hermes-A" / "Klevok"?
                  1. Mercenary
                    Mercenary 2 March 2016 14: 03
                    0
                    Quote: Spade
                    What do you dislike about "Hermes-A" / "Klevok"?


                    Hello dear! Already a marshal, well, what was to be expected! I was banned by the army general, for which I still did not understand, since I was one year old I couldn’t get here, I just read the news from the phone and read the comments. How are you?
                2. Stiletto_711
                  Stiletto_711 28 February 2016 18: 32
                  0
                  Sorry, a reservation was made not to the ATGM 9M133FM-3, but to UR, it was with a high-explosive warhead
              4. iConst
                iConst 28 February 2016 18: 54
                +4
                Quote: aksakal
                This is a typical software approaching artificial intelligence, which was developed for Apache and not developed for Russian helicopters.

                - Not typical. And what does approaching mean?
                AI, in fact, is based on computational algorithms - that is, software.

                But you need to distinguish between AI and the software part of fire control systems.

                Of course, AI can be integrated into the fire system of a combat vehicle, but this is wrong and ultimately leads to a dead end.

                AI should be seen as an operator giving orders and not "tied" to the fire control system itself. This achieves modularity - the essence of flexibility and potential for modernization.
                1. aksakal
                  aksakal 28 February 2016 22: 53
                  +2
                  Quote: iConst
                  Not typical. And what does approaching mean?
                  AI, in fact, is based on computational algorithms - that is, software.

                  - here we are talking about different AIs. Confusion in terms, you don't know what you understand by AI, but by artificial intelligence I mean exactly intelligence, not some algorithms, that is, something that can think like a person. That is why I wrote "approaching AI", implying that in the Apache this system does not yet know how to think like a person, but already some elements, in particular, the ability to recognize and some elements of analysis are already there. You write about some algorithms and for some reason call it artificial intelligence. At the moment, AI, in the sense that I understand it, has not been created and is unlikely to be created in the next decade. To avoid confusion, I ask you to call algorithms and software algorithms and software and not AI.
                  Quote: iConst
                  AI should be viewed as an operator giving orders and not "tied" to the fire control system itself.
                  - already there is one - the pilot himself, why is there an AI? And here is the operator which quickly provides: automatic detection of fixed and moving targets at maximum firing range; identification and determination of the degree of importance of each goal in five classes (classifies and prioritizes); tracking goals, in translation from military to mathematical - recognition and classification of recognized objects by categories - such an operator would be useful, and it is in Apache and, to my surprise, it is not in our helicopters.
                  Quote: TOR2
                  And to grow such a specialist is very difficult and costly.

                  - so they are. Didn't Sukhoi boast that the T-50 is so intelligent that it sometimes seems to be alive? Someone stuffed the T-50 with this software, and this someone works in Russia and is its citizen. And there are practically no differences in the combat use of the T-50 and helicopters - both of them attack from the air and must recognize the target from a height and direct a rocket at it. Well, there are differences, well, it's not a question of modifying that brow for a helicopter.
                  1. Red_Baron
                    Red_Baron 15 May 2017 02: 57
                    +1
                    Quote: aksakal
                    and I mean artificial intelligence precisely intellect, and not some algorithms, that is, something that can think like a human being.

                    Well, you have seen enough of science fiction films, and therefore you write complete nonsense. There never was and never will be what you say. Human evolution so far confirms this. By the way, I’ll tell you a secret, a person also thinks often with algorithms that depend on instincts, habits, training, and so on. So please leave your tales for Murzilka magazine - there they are more appropriate.
                    Quote: aksakal
                    At the moment, AI, in the sense, as I understand it, has not been created and is unlikely to be created in the next decade.

                    It will not be created at all, I wrote above why, if there is some kind of copy of the human brain separate from a person, then it will be completely different even in meaning.
                    And you know that the next decade will not be created yet - photon torpedoes, teleportator, time machine, antimatter emitter, light swords. Will you, on occasion, apply all the ideas of science fiction writers to technology? Do you mind that helicopters do not work on gravitational thrust? In my opinion, it's time to use combat flippers instead. What do you think?
                    Quote: aksakal
                    That is why I wrote "approaching AI", implying that in Apache this system does not know how to think, but already some elements, in particular, the ability to recognize and some elements of analysis already exist.

                    Of course not. The more you believe in fairy tales, the more nonsense you imagine. There is no analysis, the algorithms are the simplest in comparison.
                    Quote: aksakal
                    To avoid confusion, I ask you to call algorithms and software algorithms and software and not AI.

                    In the ordinary world, not in your Martian, AI is just called a set of algorithms. Read Sholokhov - how grandfather Schukar used the dictionary. It looks very similar.
                    Quote: aksakal
                    - so they are. Didn't the Sukhoi boast that the T-50 is so intelligent that it sometimes seems like it is alive?

                    This is just another tale of techies for ordinary people. Which is then replicated. There is an AI, which is a set of algorithms in accordance with what is happening, performing certain actions. Similar mechanisms are everywhere around you, even in your browser, only "Dry" did not brag about them and you do not know anything about them.
                    Quote: aksakal
                    And there are practically no differences in the combat use of the T-50 and helicopters - both of them attack from the air and must recognize the target from a height and send a missile at it.

                    Why didn’t you write this phrase first, after it you don’t have to read the rest at all. You absolutely do not understand what you are writing, you absolutely do not understand what happens when a helicopter attacks.
              5. derik1970
                derik1970 29 February 2016 10: 52
                +6
                Sorry my friend, but until our helicopter pilots present the finished product for testing, we can definitely say that we have nothing like an Apache helicopter. And all the talk, if only if it were all empty talk, including about programmers or something else. And our electronics are the most armored, and there isn’t it if you really look. By the way, the gunsmiths say that the cannon that the ATGM needs to be done the same specifically for the helicopter, and not adapt from the BMP and beat yourself in the chest with your left heel. We still live by the fact that in the days of the USSR they came up with, built. And you are right the helicopter designers and not only, it is necessary to specifically press in terms of product development and expediency, or maybe it's time to open the sharashki for this. hi
              6. prosto_rgb
                prosto_rgb 29 February 2016 12: 59
                0
                Quote: aksakal
                Don't you think that it’s time for Rosvertol to make organizational conclusions?

                Soon Serdyukov will do it!
                No wonder that the managers of Russian Helicopters put him in the top.
                1. aba
                  aba 1 March 2016 01: 03
                  +1
                  No wonder that the managers of Russian Helicopters put him in the top.

                  here you can only say Lavrov ...
                  1. prosto_rgb
                    prosto_rgb 6 March 2016 18: 15
                    0
                    Quote: aba
                    here you can only say Lavrov ...

                    and then, they will be the most censored of all possible ...
              7. al.popoff
                al.popoff 29 February 2016 21: 28
                +1
                To avoid jambs, you need to pay normally to everyone, starting from the janitor at the factory, where they make helicopters, ending with designers.
              8. user
                user 29 February 2016 22: 20
                +1
                the Houthis do not have them either, but recently they managed to shoot down the Saudi Apache.


                When the mattresses invaded Iraq, then an old man knocked down Apache from the drill (11 mm. English rifle of the late 19th century), and you're talking about a grenade launcher. By the way, in front of the camera, he bragged (whoever didn’t shoot it - a hero) that he would take another wife for the $ 20 received (premium for a helicopter).
            3. mav1971
              mav1971 28 February 2016 15: 54
              11
              Quote: kot11180
              "Apache" was used in real battles with whom? Iraq, Islamic militants. Neither had any serious air defense systems, so this is not an indicator.


              Well, at least take an interest in what you write about again.
              Well, for self-education.
              Iraq - 2 times and both in normal air defense. don't downplay Iraqi air defense.
              It's just that any air defense is "carried out" by definition.
              Although supersaturated, at least sparse.
              No 100% air defense in principle.
              It's all about the quality of the blow.
              The Sauddites are now chasing them in Yemen.
              Israel has been using Apaches for 25 years in a constant approach to combat.
              Afghanistan - exactly the same conditions as our pilots flew.
              The experience is really combat.
              1. kot11180
                kot11180 28 February 2016 18: 01
                0
                And I'm interested in and not only about this. Is normal air defense in Iraq? Speaking in your language - bring Old. But simply extol everything Western without giving specific facts a lot of mind is not necessary.
                1. mav1971
                  mav1971 28 February 2016 20: 11
                  +6
                  Quote: kot11180
                  And I'm interested in and not only about this. Is normal air defense in Iraq? Speaking in your language - bring Old. But simply extol everything Western without giving specific facts a lot of mind is not necessary.



                  First of all.
                  No one extols the western.
                  I know perfectly well how the Mig-25 shot down Hornet, how the Mig-29 shot down the Tornado, how the Mig-23 and 29 damaged "permanently" the F-111 in the amount of 3 pieces, and this same pilot of the Mig damaged the B-52 in the same flight, who barely limped to the base.

                  I know that Iraqis from visual observation posts shot down to 70-80% of daytime launches of tomahawks along the route with MANPADS and anti-aircraft small caliber, because of which the Americans stopped launching the daytime completely.
                  And what of the 300 missiles launched according to alternative data. those. indirect documents. all reports, all orders and others, received the effectiveness of all in 50%.

                  But still, the Iraqis simply did not have a chance to survive.
                  on 1991 year.

                  Radar station
                  P-12
                  P-14
                  P-15
                  P-18
                  P-15M
                  P-35
                  P-37
                  TRS-2215
                  TRS-2230
                  Thomson-CSF Volex III

                  SAM systems or batteries.
                  15 C-75
                  28 C-125
                  22 Cube
                  16 Wasp
                  24 Roland
                  MANPADS "Strela-2", "Strela-3" and "Igla-1"
                  Plus an unknown number of captured Kuwaiti Hocks and Krotals.

                  Aviation.
                  only that. where there is the possibility of intercepting air targets.
                  75 "Mirage F.1"
                  208 MiG-21
                  123 MiG-23
                  33 MiG-25
                  41 MiG-29

                  not a little.
                  1. kot11180
                    kot11180 28 February 2016 22: 04
                    0
                    I don’t argue, Iraq had a lot of money, but the question is how to use it - trained calculations, the presence of a radar field, etc. (in Arab countries, all this has always been low). The coalition had an overwhelming advantage.
                    And finally 70-80% of the daily launches of tomahawks along the route using MANPADS and anti-aircraft small caliber, this is too unbelievable even for modern anti-aircraft guns.
                    Sincerely.
                    1. mav1971
                      mav1971 28 February 2016 23: 18
                      +8
                      Quote: kot11180
                      I don’t argue, Iraq had a lot of money, but the question is how to use it - trained calculations, the presence of a radar field, etc. (in Arab countries, all this has always been low). The coalition had an overwhelming advantage.
                      And finally 70-80% of the daily launches of tomahawks along the route using MANPADS and anti-aircraft small caliber, this is too unbelievable even for modern anti-aircraft guns.
                      Sincerely.


                      Do not believe it, but the Iraqis made the simplest scheme.
                      We set up observation posts along the entire border, each 5-7 kilometers around the perimeter.
                      And also in the depths.
                      In the simplest way, they determined the direction and time of approach with an accuracy of a minute or two. To the point of impact.
                      They knew that those tomahawks needed reference points.
                      In dangerous areas, they put up MANPADS posts and fired after knowing when they would fly.
                      They hit a lot of rockets.

                      The radars did not have a constant inclusion, for they understood that wild caresses were constantly bartering.
                      and the slightest inclusion - immediately hit.
                      HARMs and ALARMs were released more than 2000 pieces.
                      But all the same, on 4 day, all air defense ceased.
                      All communications have been cut.
                      and all
                2. tforik
                  tforik 1 June 2016 17: 38
                  0
                  So you can take the whole ball and say that no one has normal air defense. Which of the countries of the Warsaw air defense treaty is better than the Yugoslav, for example?
                  The reality is that the United States today can break through any air defense without heavy losses.
              2. Lord blacwood
                Lord blacwood 28 February 2016 20: 07
                +4
                In Iraq, obsolete air defense systems were suppressed by electronic warfare, and in Afghanistan the experience is really real.
                1. mav1971
                  mav1971 28 February 2016 23: 29
                  +6
                  Quote: Lord Blacwood
                  In Iraq, obsolete air defense systems were suppressed by electronic warfare, and in Afghanistan the experience is really real.


                  Iraqi air defense was considered the strongest in the region, by the way.
                  do not forget - they recently had a war with Iran, in which they got a dofig of experience. the use of aviation and air defense was intense.

                  In Iraq, air defense was suppressed by NARM missiles. Of which more than 2000 have been released.
                  And not only Wild Weasels, who were simply teeming with the expectation of turning on the radar.
                  And so many fighters carried 1-2 NARM missiles, regardless of the actual combat mission.
                  Shot without hesitation.
                  1. yehat
                    yehat April 13 2016 12: 00
                    +3
                    The main problem of the Iraqis was that it was very difficult to disguise something.
                    desert, flat table. Ideal ground for attack
                    in the mountains or in the jungle it would be completely different.
                    to the attacker's hand was the fact that the Iraqis were forced to disperse their forces to defend the territory, and the Americans could, on the contrary, concentrate the strikes.
                    Remember, for a regular strike on a target, where 2-4 aircraft flew in Georgia, the Americans flew a whole warrant with cover aircraft - electronic warfare, air defense, backup vehicles, radar group, surveillance and reconnaissance - reached 30+ purely auxiliary boards. And on the attacked object from the power of 1-2 radar, and a pair of batteries in the best case. And often the attack was supported by ground-based spotters, satellite surveillance, UAVs, and with preliminary rocket fire at Al Tomahawk.
            4. Lord blacwood
              Lord blacwood 28 February 2016 20: 01
              0
              In Afghanistan, the mountainous terrain, and MANPADS is easy to use (and this is good enough for the terrorists).
              1. Conrad
                Conrad 29 February 2016 18: 44
                0
                Quote: Lord Blacwood
                MANPADS are easy to use (and terrorists have enough of this good).

                And here is the question! And where do the terrorists get this good? They have all the nations that have MANPADS production in the enemies are listed. And the black market is not bottomless - a pair of three MANPADS, well, a dozen and all will immediately cover the entire business. Etoges are not Mujahideen - fiery fighters against Soviet tyranny.
            5. yehat
              yehat April 13 2016 11: 46
              0
              in Iraq, he was a good run-in.
              not all of his advertising theses have been confirmed, but you should not ignore its application there and work on errors.
              however, in the same Iraq its instability to shelling with conventional small arms was revealed, which for such a machine is a serious weakness.
              1. yehat
                yehat April 13 2016 12: 09
                +1
                another weakness of Apache revealed in Afghanistan - engine weakness.
                for highlands, the engine is too weak.
                This is the same problem faced by the USSR army, which entered the Afghans, 8 Mi-24 and Mi-28 were not adapted to operations in the mountains. Why do you think the Americans buy our transport helicopters to Afghanistan? Because they are better suited than "them" for the area.
          2. ArhipenkoAndrey
            ArhipenkoAndrey 28 February 2016 15: 31
            -1
            CONCLUSIONS MAY BE AND Doubtful - THIS SHOULD BE CONSIDERED, but those who have come across ultra-modern American technology understand this perfectly well, it works perfectly and well only under ideal conditions, with excellent service and with a stupid and obviously weaker armed enemy and a large number of servicing, highly qualified personnel , an example with the "Apache" DB in Iraq - a peasant was shot down from a caramultuk - hitting an optical-sighting-navigation device, the result - a forced landing with the rescue of the crew, it was exploited by the "invincible" and "super-advanced" Americans themselves.
            1. Lord blacwood
              Lord blacwood 28 February 2016 20: 11
              +2
              ArhipenkoAndrey, the case of a peasant has not been confirmed, especially since it was reported by Iraqi media (controlled by Saddam Hussein).
              1. Conrad
                Conrad 29 February 2016 18: 45
                0
                Quote: Lord Blacwood
                all the more so as the Iraqi media reported (controlled by Saddam Hussein).

                And the American refuted by no one controlled by definition !!!
              2. Idiot
                Idiot April 3 2016 12: 56
                0
                And the BBC refuted. So it is necessary: ​​do not trust anyone except the American media.
              3. Idiot
                Idiot April 3 2016 12: 56
                0
                And the BBC refuted. So it is necessary: ​​do not trust anyone except the American media.
              4. yehat
                yehat April 13 2016 12: 03
                0
                at least 1 case of Apache being shot down by a single bullet from Kalash was recorded by the Americans themselves. They simply transfer such cases into the category of unconfirmed, in need of verification, etc., in order to obscure the issue. Or do you believe F15 statistics against our aircraft?
          3. Max T.
            Max T. 28 February 2016 20: 32
            +1
            Do not forget, too, that our helicopter is the "son" of "Crocodile". And he rolled around the world no less than APACH.
            1. avia1991
              avia1991 28 February 2016 21: 11
              +2
              Quote: Max T.
              our helicopter "son" "Crocodile"

              Two completely different cars, despite the unification. So the comparison is incorrect.
          4. avdkrd
            avdkrd 15 January 2017 21: 03
            0
            Quote: Corporal
            Do not forget that "Apache" was used in real battles. And as an advertisement, the appearance of numerous videos on YouTube.

            In real battles against whom? Under what conditions? Again, the tactics of using American and our machines are completely different. All that Apache pilots can be proud of today is either shooting "from around the corner" at previously reconnoitered targets, or shooting correspondents from cannons. For firing ATGMs at maximum range, from the position of hovering behind an obstacle, against reconnoitered targets, neither the Apache nor the Mi-28 is needed. NURSami Apache practically does not work, it has been turned into a damn expensive scalpel and is used only against a technically weak enemy.
        2. Alex 1972
          Alex 1972 28 February 2016 09: 15
          36
          Quote: ArhipenkoAndrey
          The author beautifully painted the advantages of the American car and is very adequate to the possibility of our

          The key thing the author writes about, in fact, is that we are lagging behind anti-aircraft missiles and this did not become known today, for a long time, long ago I read about this problem and honestly thought it was a sinful thing that we solved it, but no ...
          Plus to the author, for raising the problem.
          1. opus
            opus 28 February 2016 19: 43
            +1
            Quote: Alexey 1972
            this is what we are behind in missile defense

            on avionics in general
            But catching up


            on PT the same.
            Hermes is good
            1. goose
              goose 29 February 2016 14: 24
              +1
              The heaviest NATO missile weighs 65 kg, the usual mass of anti-aircraft missiles is 45-49 kg.
              So Hermes is out of place here. Other specifics.
              And also our anti-tank missiles need to be made more in a larger caliber, because penetration of a cumulative warhead is highly dependent on it.
        3. avia1991
          avia1991 28 February 2016 10: 37
          20
          Quote: ArhipenkoAndrey
          It turns out that India bought an extremely expensive toy and an almost complete dependence on maintenance and upkeep.

          As for the "dependence" - you cannot say that, because the terms of the contract are unknown. Hindus, as a rule, require the ability to assemble equipment at home, on their own, and staff training. They are no less pragmatic in these matters than the Chinese!
          And as for the high cost - so you need to consider the required frequency and complexity of maintenance, the service life of the equipment up to medium and overhaul, etc. And in this matter, our helicopters - believe me! - do not give a head start to the Americans. And then: it is cheaper to maintain an expensive helicopter, which is less likely to be shot down than a cheap one - but "clumsy" and outdated, which will have to be bought new in a day.
          If the Mi-28 had appeared in service AT LEAST 20 years ago, of course, by now it would have confidently competed with the Apache. And so .. wasted time, there is no one to be offended. Now the gap can only be reduced by creating something fundamentally new - like "Armata" for tankers, for example.
          1. avia1991
            avia1991 28 February 2016 13: 25
            +3
            Quote: avia1991
            avia1991

            It's sad that, as most often happens, there is no clear justification for the "cons". wassat What is difficult to formulate, what do you disagree with? Or, as Zakharova says about the State Department: "Their rudeness is explained by the absence of any arguments"? laughing
            1. Bayonet
              Bayonet 28 February 2016 15: 37
              +2
              Quote: avia1991
              It is sad that there is no clear rationale for the "minuses", as often happens.

              What justification is there - only emotions! To justify, you need to have knowledge in this area.
          2. ArhipenkoAndrey
            ArhipenkoAndrey 28 February 2016 15: 45
            +1
            That’s what it’s like, Americans will never sell the latest technologies that can be copied, NEVER, sorry this is their principle of selling, they will sell, but they will never establish a complete set for release.
            1. avia1991
              avia1991 28 February 2016 23: 37
              +1
              Quote: ArhipenkoAndrey
              Americans will never sell the latest technology that you can copy,

              "Apache" was developed in the early 80s, the technologies are new only in the filling, which can easily be stipulated as components supplied "exclusively from the USA". Everything else is no longer a secret.
          3. xtur
            xtur 28 February 2016 18: 48
            +2
            > If the Mi-28 appeared in service AT LEAST 20 years ago, of course, by now it would have confidently competed with the Apache. And so .. wasted time, there is no one to be offended. Now, only the creation of something fundamentally new can close the gap - like "Armata" for tankers, for example.

            the article dealt with a lag in software and electronics, but you need to do a brand new helicopter - Thy wonderful deeds, Lord
            1. avia1991
              avia1991 28 February 2016 21: 36
              +2
              Quote: xtur
              the article was about lagging in software and electronics,

              OPA-A .. but it seemed to me - they are trying to compare helicopters! .. Or are you talking about another article? wassat
              Quote: xtur
              you need to do a brand new helicopter
              ??? You, sorry, are reading - or are you trying to think for me?
              Quote: avia1991
              Now, only the creation of something fundamentally new can close the gap - like "Armata" for tankers, for example.

              WHERE is here about a fundamentally new helicopter?
              The "body" of the Mi-28 is quite enough. Make a modern filling, taking into account the development trends of electronic warfare and air defense systems, install the latest weapons - and it will be fundamentally new! Who would do ..
          4. t7310
            t7310 April 7 2017 18: 53
            0
            [quote = avia1991] [quote = ArhipenkoAndrey] And so .. waste time, there is no one to be offended. Now, only the creation of something fundamentally new can close the gap - like "Armata" for tankers, for example. [/ Quote]

            k50 with new missiles, no?
        4. Bayonet
          Bayonet 28 February 2016 15: 17
          14
          Quote: ArhipenkoAndrey
          plus the "Apache" has much lower combat survivability on the battlefield, and so on.

          The first case of combat use of Boeing AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopters took place in the early hours of Operation Iraqi Freedom, when helicopters from Unit 1-3 of the US 3rd Infantry (Mechanized) Division struck an Iraqi observation post near border with Kuwait. In this raid, 31 AH-64Ds were damaged. Each of them had at least six holes from shells of 23 mm caliber and shrapnel (a number of Western sources provide data on 15-20 hits on average). On one Apache, an engine was broken by a grenade fired from an RPG-7, and the crew managed to reach the northern regions of Kuwait on one engine. 11 of the 31 damaged helicopters were returned to service within four days, the rest of the helicopters required a longer time to repair.
          Is the Apache's survivability so low?
          1. ArhipenkoAndrey
            ArhipenkoAndrey 28 February 2016 15: 40
            0
            I wrote about this, the helicopter is beautiful but with a obviously weaker enemy with rather outdated weapons, and there are different holes too - it's still a combat helicopter, a front-line machine and a result of 11 out of 31 speaks of poor maintainability - less than 50% sorry but this is only in the minus car.
            1. avia1991
              avia1991 28 February 2016 15: 54
              +8
              Quote: ArhipenkoAndrey
              it's still a combat helicopter, a front-line machine

              If by "front line" you mean the battlefield - then you misunderstand the concept of "Apache": this is a helicopter for fighting armored targets, first and foremost. For this, the filling, and the palette of weapons, and the tactics of use are sharpened: ambush-tracking-identification-distribution-quick rise + attack-care of an obstacle. And all this - at the maximum distance from the targets! "Apaches" should not be engaged in the fight against infantrymen!
            2. Sandov
              Sandov 28 February 2016 19: 50
              +1
              Like it or not, Americans will have to somehow catch up and overtake, otherwise we will not see victory.
        5. bodzu
          bodzu 28 February 2016 15: 44
          +4
          This article is not about a helicopter but about its weapons. All questions to developers and manufacturers of weapons.
        6. psiho117
          psiho117 28 February 2016 17: 21
          17
          Quote: ArhipenkoAndrey
          "Apache" has much lower combat survivability on the battlefield,

          Yah? Do not tell me - a sample of what military conflicts you made to make such a loud statement? And so that with figures and facts - they say, Apache of small-caliber ZA and MANPADS was shot down 20 pieces for so much, and our MIs did not suffer losses in a similar situation, due to the highly protected design?
          Well, is there really no sample? So why are you throwing slogans here?
          It turns out that India bought an extremely expensive toy and an almost complete dependence on maintenance and upkeep. A win is very doubtful turns out well, like a suitcase without a handle.

          No, it turns out that India bought a highly effective all-weather strike complex, consisting of the world's best (at the moment) attack helicopter, a complex of guided high-precision weapons for it, and the infrastructure for maintenance \ repair \ training.
          And which of the above could we offer?
          You can even put a hundred minuses to the article, but this does not level the backlog.
          How much do we promise a sub-radar radar for our helicopters?
          What about weapons?
          Americans adopt a 4-generation missile with a range of 24 km, we have the 2nd generation with a range of 6 km.
          is it really not clear that this wretched range is now completely insufficient, and even the guidance principle is outdated?
          Well, yes, we are waiting for Hermes. I’m only afraid that he’s in the same place as the Crossbow.
          You can minus, cheers patriots ...
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 28 February 2016 17: 49
            +7
            Quote: psiho117
            No, it turns out that India bought a high-performance all-weather strike complex, as part of the world's best (at the moment) attack helicopter,

            Here I would argue ... "Alligator" and "Shark", I would so underestimate ...
            And as for the 28th, I’ll say this, the machine is good, but there is always a feeling that she is missing something all the time.
            Milevtsy "hacked to death" "Akula", maybe the Kamovites climbed on their patrimony, although all the time they were engaged in helicopters for the Navy.
            It would be more logical to put the KA-50 into the series, taking into account all modern developments and arsenal, and the Alligator with them as a command vehicle ...
            1. avia1991
              avia1991 28 February 2016 23: 43
              +2
              Quote: NEXUS
              Kamovtsy climbed onto their estates, although all the time they were engaged in helicopters for the Navy.

              No, they were simply "pushed" there all the time - although they regularly took part in army competitions. "Tupolev effect" in helicopter construction .. wink
              Of course, it would be much more objective to compare the Apache with the Ka-52: the tasks are more similar, the PRICE, again .. I'm afraid the comparison will not be in favor of the American wassat
              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS 29 February 2016 12: 40
                +2
                Quote: avia1991
                I'm afraid the comparison will not be in favor of Americanos

                But in fairness, I must say that the Alligator has a lot to develop. I won’t be surprised if the KA-52 will undergo modernization very soon, albeit a new relatively machine.
          2. Professor
            Professor 28 February 2016 18: 10
            +8
            Quote: psiho117
            Americans adopt a 4-generation missile with a range of 24 km

            Which one?

            Quote: Valera999
            The tender is lost, no one will give Indians 4 generations

            It’s hard to sell something that does not exist in nature.
        7. Lord blacwood
          Lord blacwood 28 February 2016 19: 59
          +2
          It takes a lot of money to have a good technique. What is the point when the technique is cheap, when the more expensive technique surpasses it. Of course, purchased helicopters need to be serviced. And "Apache" was used in battles, and in the mountains of Afghanistan and over the cities of Iraq (where it is very easy to use MANPADS).
        8. Platonich
          Platonich 29 February 2016 05: 25
          +2
          "Very doubtful": the range of the APACH strike is 16 km and our range is 6 km (and then with a stretch) and fucking cheap operation, when not a single helicopter (ours) returns from the battle - there will be nothing to operate. Well a very dubious win haha!
          1. planar
            planar April 28 2016 07: 33
            +1
            You at 16 kilometers first see where you will shoot. Then we'll see - who has longer
        9. planar
          planar April 28 2016 07: 04
          +2
          Weakly the author knows our car. It looks like he studied her characteristics from the movie "Rambo III". Wait, there was no night hunter! Well, that's why the article turned out to be one-sided. The author was clearly working out the cookies.
      2. 73bor
        73bor 28 February 2016 09: 38
        36
        As far as I know, the Apache is not armored at all, according to avionics, the Mi-28 meets the requirements of the Ministry of Defense and if it is not much inferior, but on the Apache there is no such complex as Vitebsk, and it is unlikely to be. not because of avionics or missiles, but because of problems with the gearbox and surging during missile launches! The author is disingenuous about booking the Mi-28, the booking of the cockpit can withstand the hit of 20-mm shells in any projection, and the glazing is only in the frontal, in addition, there is an armored partition between the cockpits of the pilot and the operator!
        1. PSih2097
          PSih2097 28 February 2016 12: 42
          +2
          Quote: 73bor
          And the tender wasn’t lost due to avionics or missiles,

          Dear, the professor talked about this two years ago, but there’s also the Ka-52
        2. avia1991
          avia1991 28 February 2016 14: 17
          +6
          Quote: 73bor
          As far as I know, the Apache is not armored at all

          Sucks you know. Although booking is weaker than ours, it protects against 12,7mm bullets.
          Quote: 73bor
          booking a cabin can withstand hit 20 mm shells in any (ANY! wink ) projection, and glazing only in the frontal

          In the frontal projection, glazing withstands hit by 12,7mm bullets. It will not protect from a shell. Side windows, being 2 times thinner, provide protection against bullets 7,62 - no more.
          This is not in favor of "ours is worse or better": simply, in order to compare in garlic, it is necessary to take objective data.
          1. adept666
            adept666 28 February 2016 14: 59
            +1
            Side windows, being 2 times thinner, provide protection against bullets 7,62 - no more.
            I added shelling below the video, look at 2:31 minutes.
            1. avia1991
              avia1991 28 February 2016 15: 40
              0
              Quote: adept666
              below the video added pounding,

              Looked about the side I take the words back hi
              However, no one tried to shoot bullets from the gun’s windshields - so it’s not all the truth to ascribe to me! wink
              1. adept666
                adept666 28 February 2016 16: 08
                +3
                However, no one tried to shoot bullets from the gun’s windshields - so it’s not all the truth to ascribe to me!
                I agree with this, I think even 14,5 glass can not stand at such a distance (but from 400-500m I think quite), not like 20 mm. Moreover, even the board is not armor-piercing 20mm, but holds high-explosive fragmentation from 10m and it is clear that it almost penetrates. But whatever it is, it's still the coolest helicopter armor to date, on Apaches there were cases of crew injuries during shelling from a Kalashnikov assault rifle. hi
                1. otter.1
                  otter.1 1 March 2016 23: 00
                  0
                  And now this is strong- I agree with this, I now think, it seems to me now- ARGUMENT.
              2. otter.1
                otter.1 1 March 2016 22: 58
                +1
                When you bring in such crap that it is disgusting to read, I worked in Torzhok. Vyb there said it about the reservation, you would also say what terrible resistance Apache felt in Iraq - you would be bombarded with gangs. I didn’t want to write, well, this is unbearable. Do you, like Nadezhdin, study everything on Wikipedia?
        3. Mercenary
          Mercenary 2 March 2016 14: 12
          0
          Quote: 73bor
          As far as I know, the Apache is not armored at all


          Rather insufficiently armored ...
          The cockpit is covered from the sides and bottom with kevlar and polyacrylate armor plates that can withstand a 23-mm projectile hit. The engine and transmission are not armored, the principle of protecting more important structural components by less important ones is applied, many parts are oversized and have increased strength, also withstanding the hit of a 23mm projectile. Caliber "Shilki" for example
      3. da Vinci
        da Vinci 28 February 2016 10: 30
        +9
        Enough with the developments of the late 70s, and with this sauce rake up the remaining financing. On the existing base, you can create a good car in 3-4 years. angry
        1. ArhipenkoAndrey
          ArhipenkoAndrey 28 February 2016 15: 42
          +1
          What a speedy, GOOD car you are in 3-4 years from scratch, I would like to see such a specialist, or rather a team of specialists plus a plant.
          1. avia1991
            avia1991 28 February 2016 15: 46
            +1
            Quote: ArhipenkoAndrey
            for 3-4 years from scratch, I would like to see such a specialist.

            Read about the development of domestic convertiplane. Recently just started ..
            Nobody says that a new development should be done "from scratch", without using existing experience, and projects that were once shelved.
          2. Bayonet
            Bayonet 28 February 2016 15: 55
            +2
            Quote: ArhipenkoAndrey
            What a speedy, GOOD car you are in 3-4 years from scratch, I would like to see such a specialist, or rather a team of specialists plus a plant.

            Now you will begin to give Stalin's sharashka an example! hi
          3. otter.1
            otter.1 1 March 2016 23: 05
            0
            Well, have you seen the nickname? What about the sea? Yes with this flag ......
        2. otter.1
          otter.1 1 March 2016 23: 04
          0
          Do not you recall my dear friend Apache development year? Of course, I understand that in order to remake Longbow, they leave the car a naked monocoque, but you are just talking about it.
          I understand that with such a nickname it's not like a helicopter, the lunar module can be bungled, so try it.
      4. Professor
        Professor 28 February 2016 10: 30
        21
        Quote: aktanir
        An American Apache with 4 generation birds that hit 16 km with a penetration of 1200 mm of armor will be an extremely dangerous weapon in regional and local conflicts, since it leaves the tanks completely defenseless.

        When the 4th generation ATGMs appear then we'll talk.

        In this case, the crew’s armored box is made of 10-mm sheets of aluminum alloy, on which ceramic tiles are glued. Such a design can save the crew from 7,62 mm caliber bullets.

        It seems to me that the author is mistaken. Aluminum is only a substrate, and ceramics can in principle hold 50-caliber bullets.
        1. Pimply
          Pimply 28 February 2016 11: 27
          +8
          Quote: Professor
          It seems to me that the author is mistaken. Aluminum is only a substrate, and ceramics can in principle hold 50-caliber bullets.

          12.7 in the Russian classification
        2. 19001900
          19001900 28 February 2016 13: 02
          +4
          The author didn’t make a mistake faster, but he cunningly said that there is a video of test bombardment of the cabin with a 12,7 caliber bullet (glazing)
        3. otter.1
          otter.1 1 March 2016 23: 07
          0
          Quite right, I didn’t write about it here, but a complete sensation, a gathering of amateurs.
      5. Vadim237
        Vadim237 28 February 2016 10: 31
        +4
        Our army needs a third-generation ATGM.
        1. jjj
          jjj 28 February 2016 10: 50
          +4
          The author of the so-called analysis is a well-known "polymer worker". You shouldn't pay attention to his opuses at all
          1. Valera999
            Valera999 28 February 2016 14: 09
            +4
            The tender is lost, no one will give Ptur to the Indians of the 4th generation, Mi28 is all exactly good, I will not give it up)))) !!!! Apache like all the American shit, Apple shit, medicine shit, chemistry shit and a point !!!! Author Bullshit ??
            1. Bayonet
              Bayonet 28 February 2016 15: 41
              -3
              Quote: Valera999
              Apache like all the American shit, Apple shit, medicine shit, chemistry shit and a point !!!! Author Bullshit ??
              1. otter.1
                otter.1 1 March 2016 23: 11
                +2
                You shouldn't be like that, although I'm not a fan of the American "military-industrial complex"
                But Apache is a tight machine and unfortunately in terms of on-board electronics the comparison is not in our favor.
          2. mav1971
            mav1971 28 February 2016 16: 02
            16
            Quote: jjj
            The author of the so-called analysis is a well-known "polymer worker". You shouldn't pay attention to his opuses at all


            Polymer, not polymer, but there are good sayings.

            Old Russian "Until the thunder breaks out, the man does not cross himself ..."

            So.
            The modern Russians of the 30 years came up with the idea that thunder would not strike a new saying in their home.
            "The hedgehog is a proud bird, until you kick it - it won't fly!"
            I decrypt.
            Hedgehogs are a proud, narcissistic designer.
            Love self-love.
            Their sense of greatness is beyond.
            how - "we are doing the defense of the country."
            But in fact - you see everything. that the realities of technology are slightly at odds with the words of the designers.
            But the author of this article makes a kick, soberly arranging in places.
            Without exaggerating or belittling anyone. All in fact.
            You need to kick in order to work. instead of resting on the laurels of military-patriotic television.
            I am sure that the author wants our weapons to be bought not for its cheapness or corruption scandals, but for a clear advantage.
            Total.
            Then my soul will be calm. Then I will be glad.
            Then there will be no criticism.
            And polymers have nothing to do with it.
        2. 23424636
          23424636 28 February 2016 21: 28
          -2
          Rostec completes the supply of the Whirlwind -1 to the troops, what you call the 3 generation, Just an article in a commercial in case someone squeezes out technological secret. The author of a registered scribbler is worse than enemies.
          1. mav1971
            mav1971 28 February 2016 23: 50
            +9
            Quote: 23424636
            Rostec completes the supply of the Whirlwind -1 to the troops, what you call the 3 generation, Just an article in a commercial in case someone squeezes out technological secret. The author of a registered scribbler is worse than enemies.


            Why are you lying like that?
            First.
            Whirlwind-1, also known as 9М127-1 - is also semi-active.
            All the same forces the pilot to keep the target in direct line of sight.
            All the same, it forces the helicopter to be kept in danger of defeat, deprives it of the evasion maneuver in the folds of the terrain, etc.

            Second.
            Do not know the topic, do not carry nonsense.
            July 16 2015 year.
            Single day of acceptance of military products
            Meeting with the President of the Russian Federation.
            The delivery program of the Whirlwind-1 anti-tank missile system to the Armed Forces was almost completely disrupted.
            Kirov plant Mayak did not deliver 326 guided missiles Vortex-1. The manufactured materiel did not pass the tests, the characteristics are not confirmed. The pre-production schedules of the enterprise are disrupted.
            A similar situation has developed for the supply of Vortex-1 rockets by the Kalashnikov concern. Not delivered 1972 guided missiles. Reasons: poor processing of design documentation and failure to carry out full-fledged production activities.
            And this is not what I came up with.
            This site is official. President of the Russian Federation.
            http://www.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/50005
            Read at your leisure - your mind will increase.

            They also called the author of the article, and not only are they a liar, but also a boor ...
            1. 23424636
              23424636 29 February 2016 22: 14
              0
              read the news from October 23, 2015 where expert Colonel Murakhovsky on the radio Sputnik talked about the features of Whirlwind-1 - they implemented the principle of forgot and shot. Therefore, do not pant and call the author for admonition.
        3. aksakal
          aksakal 28 February 2016 23: 10
          +2
          Quote: Vadim237
          Our army needs a third-generation ATGM.

          - Hermes is often mentioned - is he, by chance, not of the third generation? ATGMs in Russia were mainly developed by Shipunov and Gryazev, and Shipunov, as far as I understand, was an opponent of "fire and forget" anti-tank missiles. I don’t remember how I argued, in about the same way as Suvorov also said, "that the bullet is a fool, but the bayonet is great." That the missile "fired and forgot" can be fooled, with electronic warfare and interference to take aside, and the "Cornet" is accompanied by the operator to the tank itself, and the interference is not a hindrance to it. Moreover, the signal arrives at the rear of the flying rocket. The "attack" works on the same principle. Well, for a ground operator, this may all be correct, but for a helicopter, being in the zone of enemy air defense fire for an extra second is very dangerous. So for the helicopters it will be necessary to develop a separate anti-tank system with a long flight range and on the "fire and forget" principle. Moreover, it is necessary to entrust this on a competitive basis to both the Shipunovsky and Tactical Missile Armament, and to a heap to some other developer. And to hold a competition between them honestly.
      6. Maz
        Maz 28 February 2016 11: 20
        +9
        And what about our air defense, will they look at Apache flying over the battlefield? The author concealed a lot of things and did not show in comparison - the article is superficial. http://rusvesna.su/recent_opinions/1456643105
        1. Botanologist
          Botanologist 28 February 2016 11: 54
          17
          Some kind of flat article. It seems that the helicopter needs only to attack tank wedges. IMHO, the vast majority of the work falls on the fight against infantry in positions and vehicles. And here the Mi-28 has more opportunities, and it is better protected.
          If we consider the fight against tanks, then immediately need to decide - with single tanks, vehicles in positions or when breaking through an echeloned fortified area. In the first case, both Mi and Apache will complete the task without problems. In the second case, Apache is better, there is no need to argue. Well, when the air defense of the fortified area breaks through, if there are no clinical woodpeckers at the headquarters, helicopters should be wary of MANPADS first of all, because the rest of the systems must be either turned off by the beginning of their attack, or their "dead zones" have been identified. Here, too, the equalized samples have parity.
          But still, we are waiting for the over-muzzle radar at the Mi-28, without it, Apache will definitely win.
          1. avia1991
            avia1991 28 February 2016 14: 29
            +4
            Quote: Botanologist
            It seems that the helicopter needs only to attack tank wedges. IMHO, the vast majority of the work falls on the fight against infantry in positions and vehicles

            You just named two different tasks that correspond to the concept of the Apache (first) - and the Mi-28 (second). Just because these are initially two helicopters of different purpose. laughing
            In fact, the Mi-28 has enough shortcomings, as well as advantages. The main disadvantage is the impossibility of producing a quick salvo when leaving an ambush - controlling an ATGM via a radio channel takes time .. And only an effective electronic warfare system can save the situation. Although it does not protect against small arms, you will have to rely on the armor and squint of the shooters ..
            In general, another five years to "clean up the tails" - and you can fight wink
            We are waiting for the sub-radar at the Mi-28
            And you have been waiting for someone for a long time - it has been there for a long time: the Mi-28N and NE are equipped with it regularly. Only the Mi-28 did not have "no letters"
          2. mav1971
            mav1971 28 February 2016 16: 09
            +1
            Quote: Botanologist
            Some kind of flat article. It seems that the helicopter needs only to attack tank wedges. IMHO, the vast majority of the work falls on the fight against infantry in positions and vehicles. And here the Mi-28 has more opportunities, and it is better protected.
            If we consider the fight against tanks, then we immediately need to determine - with single tanks, equipment in positions or when breaking through the echeloned fortified area.


            And why be determined?

            For example, a good enough Iraqi air defense created by Soviet and French specialists was demolished by the Apaches.
            They often command centers and field headquarters.
            The tank crowds of Iraq were also not destroyed basically by the same Apaches. Both single and fortified areas.
            The chip about 7 tanks with 1 Apache, as I understand it, is completely fixed and was not doubted by any of the specialists.
            Much. combat helicopters did a lot in Iraq.
            1. Botanologist
              Botanologist 28 February 2016 17: 16
              +3
              Quote: mav1971
              For example, a good enough Iraqi air defense created by Soviet and French specialists was demolished by the Apaches.


              The Apaches demolished the first air defense lines, with the support of drones and aviation. And they walked just through the "dead zones", on PMA and with external target designation. Mi will cope with such a task worse because of the different types of missiles. But it will, I think, also effectively, although there may be losses.

              Quote: mav1971
              The tank crowds of Iraq were also not destroyed basically by the same Apaches. Both single and fortified areas.


              What are the fortified areas with developed air defenses in Iraq 2 weeks after the start of the Desert Storm? All air defense was carried out in the first week, and the main load fell on the F-16, 15 and 111. And the destruction of tanks in fortified areas without air defense is a "favorite dish" for any attack helicopter.
              1. mav1971
                mav1971 28 February 2016 17: 34
                +6
                Quote: Botanologist
                Quote: mav1971
                For example, a good enough Iraqi air defense created by Soviet and French specialists was demolished by the Apaches.


                The Apaches demolished the first air defense lines, with the support of drones and aviation. And they walked just through the "dead zones", on PMA and with external target designation. Mi will cope with such a task worse because of the different types of missiles. But it will, I think, also effectively, although there may be losses.


                There were no sensible drones in the 1991 year ...
                External target designation was a group of American and English special forces.
                What went through the dead zones. so honor and praise to the intelligence specialists who identified these same zones.
                It was a well-calculated operation, no matter how offensive it sounded for us.
                This cannot be taken away.
                The role of Apache in that war is huge.
                Why exactly Apache, but because. that others were not there. :)
                There would be many helicopters at the same time - they could reason about the role and capabilities of everyone. But no.
              2. Lopatov
                Lopatov 28 February 2016 18: 04
                0
                Quote: Botanologist
                And the destruction of tanks in fortified areas without air defense is a "favorite dish" for any attack helicopter.

                And even in this they managed to liquidate a liquid. Karbala. From the side of the Iraqis there are only obsolete anti-aircraft artillery systems and riflemen. The task is not completed, 28 of 29 helicopters are damaged, one is lost, the crew is in captivity.

                And all this at night, the Americans were sure that they would have an advantage in NVD.
            2. n.kolesnichenko
              n.kolesnichenko 28 February 2016 22: 02
              +1
              Nobody argues about the merits of the "Apache" BUT, the Iraqi air defense system was suppressed by the Kyrgyz Republic and the coalition aviation - therefore, the "Apaches" could destroy Iraqi armored vehicles with impunity! With normal military air defense, nothing would have happened. Remember the lessons of Vietnam !!!
              1. mav1971
                mav1971 28 February 2016 23: 53
                +1
                Quote: n.kolesnichenko
                Nobody argues about the merits of the "Apache" BUT, the Iraqi air defense system was suppressed by the Kyrgyz Republic and the coalition aviation - therefore, the "Apaches" could destroy Iraqi armored vehicles with impunity! With normal military air defense, nothing would have happened. Remember the lessons of Vietnam !!!


                Initially, Apaches began to work on air defense.
                It was with the Apache attacks that the invasion of the United States and its adjacent began.
                And only then went aviation and the Kyrgyz Republic.
        2. PSih2097
          PSih2097 28 February 2016 13: 18
          +8
          Quote: Maz
          And what about our air defense, will they look at Apache flying over the battlefield?

          based on the article ...
          A new rocket mounted on the Apache will have a range of 16 km, which will significantly increase the effectiveness of the destruction of enemy tanks (firing range ATGM from aircraft - up to 28 km). As a result, due to the long-range firing of the JAGM rocket, the helicopter does not enter the affected zone of an enemy air defense system of short-range action.

          Tunguska / Tor will not reach, if only by Buk, but again the response time to the turntable, provided that the pilots of the enemy's electronic warfare vehicles get drunk / smoked / sniffed / gotten hamburged ...
          1. n.kolesnichenko
            n.kolesnichenko 28 February 2016 22: 04
            0
            Will our electronic warfare equipment be "silent" at this time?
      7. Bersaglieri
        Bersaglieri 28 February 2016 11: 37
        +5
        The Ka-52 with the Hermes-A complex is a real competitor to the current LongBow modification.
        And the Mi-28 will "catch up" to this level only in the currently developed modification NM2
      8. valken
        valken 28 February 2016 11: 45
        +7
        you generally understand what it means to hit at 16 km with penetration of 1200 mm armor, for a small, pretty rocket with an active radar - this is damn phantasmagoria. the elemental base is the same for everyone. it's all about the programs. and all of these amrakets PR public health. one of the 10000 may have flown to 16km in a flat desert on a clear day into a stationary plywood object.
        1. mav1971
          mav1971 28 February 2016 16: 18
          +6
          Quote: valken
          you generally understand what it means to hit at 16 km with penetration of 1200 mm armor, for a small, pretty rocket with an active radar - this is damn phantasmagoria. the elemental base is the same for everyone. it's all about the programs. and all of these amrakets PR public health. one of the 10000 may have flown to 16km in a flat desert on a clear day into a stationary plywood object.


          Well, read the characteristics of modern English, American aviation ATGMs ...
          When starting from an airplane - up to 20 km.
          From helicopter to 11-12 km.

          This is not fiction or phantasmagoria.
          This is real science and technology.
          They are very expensive due to their technology. By 150-200 thousand dollars. 5-8 times more expensive than the 2 generation.
          But they do it anyway.
          1. KaPToC
            KaPToC 28 February 2016 21: 12
            -1
            Americans write the launch range of aircraft missiles when starting from a moving airplane or helicopter. That is, this rocket will fly 11-12 kilometers if the helicopter gives it additional energy due to its own speed. As always, the Americans exaggerate the parameters of their technology a little bit, EXERVISE a bit, about the size of their own conceit.
            1. Valera999
              Valera999 28 February 2016 21: 54
              0
              They always exaggerate everything and what’s next, there’s nothing exactly to answer, even for 7-9 km.
              There is no such mobility as Apache's Mi28. Their technology was shot, forgotten a long time ago, and ours only have wires with a Laser, it’s really funny to compare.
              1. KaPToC
                KaPToC 29 February 2016 20: 32
                0
                You go on, why did you break off?
                Shot, forgot, missed.
                He remembered, looked, cried.
                EW tools perfectly fight against homing weapons, the electronic brain of a rocket is easy to fool.
                Americans are preparing to fight with the Papuans, Russians are preparing to fight with the Americans, do you feel the difference?
            2. goose
              goose 29 February 2016 15: 36
              +1
              Quote: KaPToC
              EXERCISE A LITTLE OVER

              Well, why is it not so much, for example, in the F-16C directories the payload is indicated 9,24 tons, but the devil is in the details, this is actually not a combat load, but the payload of all the pylons. The actual combat load cannot exceed 4 tons. And so in many ways, marketers give green as sour, and real combat characteristics are 2 times lower, and the price is twice as high.
          2. planar
            planar April 28 2016 07: 42
            0
            And in flight, they sing the US anthem and fart strawberries. Leave these tales for handouts.
        2. Bersaglieri
          Bersaglieri 28 February 2016 19: 08
          0
          Hermes-A flies on 20 + and breaks 1000 + for DZ, and with GOS. All in rocket format weighing up to 100kg. Not cheap, as noted below;)
          1. mav1971
            mav1971 28 February 2016 20: 42
            +3
            Quote: Bersaglieri
            Hermes-A flies on 20 + and breaks 1000 + for DZ, and with GOS. All in rocket format weighing up to 100kg. Not cheap, as noted below;)


            Is Hermes put into the series?
            I heard he remained at the layout stage ...
            So there is no such Hermes-A rocket.
            1. Bersaglieri
              Bersaglieri 29 February 2016 12: 04
              0
              Was ready for the series even more than 5 years ago
        3. Bersaglieri
          Bersaglieri 28 February 2016 19: 09
          0
          Do you, apparently, think that the GOS should weigh at least 40 kg? ;)
      9. Litsvin
        Litsvin 28 February 2016 14: 31
        +8
        What is there to say. This project "Mi-28" was initially "lobbied" and adopted into service not because of its performance characteristics, but thanks to, if it can be simply said, "interpersonal ties." This helicopter will never achieve the glory of the Mi-24. It was necessary to immediately tie up with the "cheap" Milevsky helicopter (as the official "propaganda" says, although it turned out to be not cheap at all), and all resources should be given to KB "Kamov", whose helicopters are better in all respects. The Ka-52 is the helicopter that should be in service and that needs to be produced in mass quantities and improved. And let the Mil design bureau develop a transport direction - replace the Mi-8 and Mi-26. The same picture is with the MiG-29. We have already discussed this on another thread of the forum. Why take this aircraft into service if its "opponent" Su-27 in battle alone replaces three MiG-29s, and for some important performance characteristics, the MiG-29 is not comparable with the Su-27? ?? Such things "arise" precisely because of the lobbying of the interests of "KB", while the interests of "common sense" and the country's defense capability are receding into the background. The "leaders" of the state, the Ministry of Defense and the military industry need to gain wisdom and roll up the Mi-28 topic as unpromising. Those Mi-28s that they did, let them fly. And to transfer production facilities for the production of "Ka-52". This helicopter is the future for the next 20 years, and maybe 30.
        1. aksakal
          aksakal 28 February 2016 23: 28
          +5
          Quote: Litsvin
          and give all the resources to the Kamov Design Bureau,

          Quote: Litsvin
          We have already discussed this on another thread of the forum. Why take this aircraft into service if its "opponent" Su-27 in battle alone replaces three MiG-29s, and for some important performance characteristics, the MiG-29 is not comparable with the Su-27? ?

          - even if there is some truth in your statements, I still do not agree. Convert Milevtsi to transport helicopters - Kamovtsy will become monopolists and will swell very quickly. they will bend prices and drive along. Same thing with airplanes. That is why it is necessary to support both equivalent developers. Let one do worse on this topic - just buy it less, but still buy it so that it does not go broke and does not lose interest. But it can recoup in the next subject or in the next generation. It is problematic for the state to support two, but it is necessary. Well, you can reduce costs by developing modularity and compatibility. That is, for example, to identify parts and components in helicopters that have already reached the peak of perfection and cannot be improved in any way, make them a common standard and oblige developers to use them directly in the technical task. Then helicopters in many nodes will be compatible and interchangeable. And for exceptions, you can provide procedures if, nevertheless, one of the developers came up with the idea that those nodes can still be improved, modified, or canceled altogether due to a constructive idea ... During these procedures, you can change the terms of reference if there is a conclusion that this will lead to improvement.
        2. goose
          goose 29 February 2016 15: 41
          0
          Probably optimal.
      10. opus
        opus 28 February 2016 19: 45
        +4
        Quote: aktanir
        And it is interesting what then constitutes K-50/52.


        Hermes / Hermes-A / Klevok-A / Hermes-K complex

        "Hermes-A" on Ka-52 helicopter






      11. bmv04636
        bmv04636 28 February 2016 22: 12
        +2
        and about the cannon the author lazyulsya forgot to compare them by efficiency and range. And this gun on our Mi-28 was not in vain.
        1. Arthur Evnevich
          Arthur Evnevich 19 September 2017 21: 23
          0
          It was said that the firing accuracy of 30 mm in the 28th was lower than that of a crocodile due to the layout: the gun was handed out like an Apache.
      12. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 29 February 2016 02: 42
        +3
        Yes, we are not lagging behind in "helicopters", but in weapons! Until now, there are praises of the aging complex "Vortex-V" and "dreamy statements" about what a wonderful Hermes ATGM will be ... if it is eventually created!
      13. drilled
        drilled 29 February 2016 14: 31
        0
        Recently there was news, it seems that Pyndos mistakenly sent this missile to Cuba after exercises in Europe. I think ours are already delving into her guts.
      14. Kadavercianin
        Kadavercianin 29 February 2016 22: 11
        0
        Hmm, everything in the world goes on a cycle and the same topics are raised endlessly.
        There was already an article dedicated to the fact that there is an Apache, that there is a night hunter and what is the root of their differences, so I advise you to read it if someone else has not read it, 2012 article:

        http://topwar.ru/19830-luchshie-v-svoem-klasse-mi-28n-i-ah-64d-apache-longbow.ht
        ml

        Please, read it first, and then judge, otherwise it comes out: "I have not read, but I condemn."
      15. user
        user 29 February 2016 22: 13
        +1
        Russia permanently lost its place in India on attack helicopters, which harmed the Mi-28NE brand.


        Well, what did you want, after losing the Ka-50 contest in Russia, the team rushed to eliminate these shortcomings, although now they claim to have made a new helicopter, and then lobbied for adoption. The Ka-50 is Arseniev, many even on the map will not immediately find it, and the Mi-28NE is the capital of our country, these are the pies in geography.
      16. yehat
        yehat April 13 2016 11: 36
        0
        but I think the article is biased. Everything is too smooth about Apache.
        1. Firstly, about the classification of targets: among Americans, the sophisticated AEGIS cruiser system could not distinguish a passenger airliner from a combat aircraft, and the helicopter avionics are much more primitive. I'm not at all sure that she will cope adequately with the classification.
        2. Hellfire2 - OUT OF DATE. all modernly protected tanks cannot be hit with the first missile. Most of her will be knocked down or taken away, but what will she pierce in her forehead?
        which modern tank will NOT stand this rocket? Even a relatively weakly protected new leopard will withstand, not to mention the T90 with new DZ, armature and Chinese tanks, in which half of the frontal projection has protection MORE than a meter of reduced armor.
        I don’t even want to continue. All facts about longbow are raised to heaven, and all facts about mi28, on the contrary, are omitted below the baseboard. Hence the unsightly comparison.
        Yes, the 28th has problems, but in fact, the longbow is simply more convenient as a purchase product - logistics, spare parts availability, English documentation, operating experience.
        The Indians' choice of TTX machines depended no more than 20%. That is the truth. A minus to the author for bias.
      17. planar
        planar April 28 2016 07: 02
        0
        An attempt to throw a ram into a turbine. The author of the article compares the Apache, which in Iraq, the grandfather from the Berdanka knocked down with the Night Hunter. Halffires with an attack. And let's compare halffire with a whirlwind, and immediately everything will not be so sad. In addition, 2a42 was developed specifically for turntables. They began to put it on the armored personnel carrier and bmp later. Yes, and the Apache nurses will be weaker. As regards air-to-air missiles, the bourgeois craft also has nothing to boast of. It remains only to boast of electronics, but even this has not allocated Apache in a number of attack helicopters for a long time. It turns out not the gravedigger of Russia's imperial ambitions, but a rather ordinary obsolete expensive service vehicle suitable for dispersing sheep flocks. And yet, first get into the night hunter from an anti-aircraft gun, and then we'll see who has stronger armor.
      18. Achilles
        Achilles 20 May 2016 16: 32
        +3
        I consider the Mi-28N unworthy to occupy the first place in the ranks of military vehicles, explain why:

        Ask if there is a complex of optoelectronic suppression of anti-aircraft missiles on the Mi-28N, without which it is deadly dangerous to fly over the battlefield today?

        Ask if there is a radar station on board the Mi-28N that can illuminate the situation on the battlefield and indicate the location of the enemy to the crew?

        Ask if there are elements of network-centric combat control on board the Mi-28N, without which in a modern battle no combat unit can interact in a coordinated manner?

        Ask if there is a missile defense system on board the Mi-28N from enemy aircraft, without which an army helicopter simply cannot live in modern combat?

        Well, and finally, ask if there is a system for jet ejection of pilots on board the Mi-28N that allows the crew to survive in the most difficult conditions?

        I answer: there is none of this on the Mi-28N.

        I supplement: all of the above are on Ka-52 helicopters, which today are still ranked among “secondary vehicles” by some high-ranking officials who are not able to replace the “main combat helicopter” in the troops.

        And one more fact: on all combat helicopters of the world there is a duplicated control system. This means that any of the two crew members can control the helicopter. This is the same guarantee of survival of a combat vehicle, such as, for example, armor. So imagine - on the Mi-28N there is no second control knob. In the event of a pilot’s wound or death, the navigator-operator (like on the Mi-24, Ka-52, Mi-8AMTSh, Ka-29TB, Apache, Cobra, Tiger, Agust and other combat vehicles) will not be able to bring the car to the base - because there is nothing . Is that the Milevtsi recently announced that they had begun production of a combat training modification of the Mi-28UB, on which the second control stick and the Mi-28NM would still be - the Mi-28N modernization project, the development of which began in 2009. In the course of it, an over-muzzle radar of type H025 was installed, as well as a duplicated control system, thanks to which the navigator-operator can also control the helicopter. But the MI-28NM has not yet entered service.
        I don’t want to cast a shadow on Mil Design Bureau, because their Mi-26, Mi-24, Mi-14 helicopters and, of course, Mi-8 are really amazing machines that hardly anyone can surpass.
      19. core
        core 10 January 2017 12: 41
        +1
        what good material are you talking about, "comparative" analysis: apache all good is highlighted, mi-28 all negative is underlined.
        and even the Indians to the An-64, no one promised a 4th generation rocket.
        who said that a missile launcher launched from 15-16 km on a tank is more dangerous for him than a missile going from a distance of 4-5 km. for a helicopter safer.
    2. Homo
      Homo 28 February 2016 12: 12
      +1
      Quote: Igor39
      The Hindus chose what they needed.

      And this "necessary" is not always practicality and performance characteristics, but also politics (and sometimes mainly politics)! hi
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    4. tiketa55
      tiketa55 29 February 2016 13: 47
      +1
      No Indians chose not what is needed, but a good rollback, our rollback was stolen.
    5. planar
      planar April 28 2016 06: 56
      +1
      Or that they were forced to choose. The dancers have long been sitting on Uncle Sam’s hook.
    6. Oml
      Oml 17 January 2017 14: 24
      0
      You can read about the "works" of the author. Quite purposefully with him.
      http://www.onolitegi.ru/2010-02-02-17-33-09/58-ra
      stopshin-mm.html

      About comparisons, here
      http://mikle1.livejournal.com/6054324.html
    7. Blondy
      Blondy 26 January 2017 11: 47
      0
      Well, here is the result of lobbying the “night hunter” in front of the Kamov helicopter helicopters. But the people still know the hell when MI pointed to the weaknesses of the 28th.
  2. report4
    report4 28 February 2016 05: 58
    +8
    Has the author woke up and remembered the 2011 tender? This is the "hot news".
    To be honest, the "article" is some kind of vyser. They also dragged American tanks for some reason. "Analysis" in the best traditions of couch analysts.
    Turntables are bought for a specific task, as evidenced by their number - only 22 pieces. Again, the author never said what was happening with these deliveries and the tender at the moment.
    1. bracket
      bracket 28 February 2016 08: 01
      +5
      definitely is really "you ... r" ...
      1. olafcik
        olafcik 28 February 2016 09: 14
        11
        all because the site to which the author refers is a very sly site "independent military review" and it is located ...
        Determine location:
        SITE - nvo.ng.ru
        IP - 188.40.89.58
        Country Germany
        Organization Hetzner Online AG
        In fact, this is another foreign scribble of Russia, ostensibly in the RU domain, but in reality located in Germany ...
        Nothing special - an element of the Internet war.
        1. atalef
          atalef 28 February 2016 09: 32
          31
          Quote: olafcik
          all because the site to which the author refers is a very sly site "independent military review" and it is located ...
          Determine location:
          SITE - nvo.ng.ru
          IP - 188.40.89.58
          Country Germany
          Organization Hetzner Online AG
          In fact, this is another foreign scribble of Russia, ostensibly in the RU domain, but in reality located in Germany ...
          Nothing special - an element of the Internet war.

          By the way, and check where the VO servers are located?
          1. Valera999
            Valera999 28 February 2016 14: 19
            +7
            The difference in the equipment of Apache and Mi28 is obvious, the tender is lost. And you refer to sources of information. What is the difference in the source, if the Mi28-Exportny backwardness from Apache is obvious. even if this source will be inferior in electronics from the Mi28 Pentagon itself, it needs to be modernized for its army. I hope the priests of specialists from the military-industrial complex have already burned, and the backs of his head are combed, and they know what to do with Mi28, and are not looking for where you are from))
          2. avia1991
            avia1991 28 February 2016 23: 53
            +2
            Quote: atalef
            By the way, and check where the VO servers are located?

            laughing ! Surprisingly - but here I will support you!
            Apparently, comrade is not aware that most of the servers available to us are located in Europe ..
            Quote: olafcik
            Determine location:
            SITE - nvo.ng.ru
            IP - 188.40.89.58

            Dear, my site, in the RU domain, also "hangs" over the hill - like most others. Following your logic, you, my dear, in Russia "in the ring of enemies"! laughing
        2. Hon
          Hon 28 February 2016 11: 20
          +5
          Maybe, but Apache won the tender anyway.
        3. Pimply
          Pimply 28 February 2016 11: 28
          +8
          Quote: olafcik
          all because the site to which the author refers is a very sly site "independent military review" and it is located ...
          Determine location:
          SITE - nvo.ng.ru
          IP - 188.40.89.58
          Country Germany
          Organization Hetzner Online AG
          In fact, this is another foreign scribble of Russia, ostensibly in the RU domain, but in reality located in Germany ...
          Nothing special - an element of the Internet war.

          Damn, what nonsense
          1. vlad_vlad
            vlad_vlad 28 February 2016 13: 30
            +9


            Pimpled (3) RU  Today, 11:28 ↑



            Quote: olafcik

            all because the site to which the author refers is a very sly site "independent military review" and it is located ...
            Determine location:
            SITE - nvo.ng.ru
            IP - 188.40.89.58
            Country Germany
            Hetzner Online AG
            In fact, this is another foreign scribble of Russia, ostensibly in the RU domain, but in reality located in Germany ...
            Nothing special - an element of the Internet war.

            Damn, what nonsense


            Ha! do not stop there:

            the true reason is that Windows is a spiritless, sinful, and heavenly invention. therefore, everything that is written on a computer with Windows is a lie and slander.
          2. The comment was deleted.
        4. mav1971
          mav1971 28 February 2016 16: 21
          +1
          Quote: olafcik
          all because the site to which the author refers is a very sly site "independent military review" and it is located ...
          Determine location:
          SITE - nvo.ng.ru
          IP - 188.40.89.58
          Country Germany
          Organization Hetzner Online AG
          In fact, this is another foreign scribble of Russia, ostensibly in the RU domain, but in reality located in Germany ...
          Nothing special - an element of the Internet war.


          Do you generally distinguish the owner of the site and hosting?
          Well, you can’t be so bad ...
    2. mav1971
      mav1971 28 February 2016 17: 26
      +2
      Quote: report4
      Has the author woke up and remembered the 2011 tender? This is the "hot news".
      To be honest, the "article" is some kind of vyser. They also dragged American tanks for some reason. "Analysis" in the best traditions of couch analysts.
      Turntables are bought for a specific task, as evidenced by their number - only 22 pieces. Again, the author never said what was happening with these deliveries and the tender at the moment.


      Signed in September 2015 of the year.
      Hindus will receive 30% of the value of this contract through the production of part of the components on their territory.
  3. PKK
    PKK 28 February 2016 06: 00
    +9
    As always in Russia, winter came suddenly. A very important component of the Striking forces has become obsolete. In the event of a serious conflict, our helicopters will beat as partridges. We will only have to fight back by planes. I would like to hope that somewhere in the bowels of the military-industrial complex new weapons are forged in huge quantities that will appear suddenly shocking the enemy. As it was, for example. with Armata. The Stalin method of educating leading cadres was not applied in a timely manner. The new leadership, in exchange for the shot, would have worked much more actively and would have created acceptable weapons.
    1. corporal
      corporal 28 February 2016 09: 29
      +5
      Quote: PKK
      , would work in sharashka much more actively

      1st is not the 37th request
      2-dominance of old-timers and their undercover games.
      3- lack of normal competition.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 28 February 2016 10: 32
        +2
        And KAB Kamova and Milha than you are not competitors.
      2. goose
        goose 29 February 2016 15: 46
        0
        No, everything is easier. There are no orders for which money is paid, there are modest orders for modernization.
    2. MACCABI-TLV
      MACCABI-TLV 28 February 2016 11: 00
      16
      Quote: PKK
      . The Stalin method of educating leading cadres was not applied in a timely manner. The new leadership, in exchange for the shot, would work in sharash much more actively and would create acceptable weapons.

      "The West has always been afraid of Stalin, and therefore worked in good faith, without waiting for reprisals!" (C) smile
    3. alexmach
      alexmach 28 February 2016 11: 15
      +2
      IMHO kakraz still in the education of leading personnel, Stalin gave a blunder. He crushed the "ardent revolutionaries" which, in general, was necessary for the country, and brought out a new variety - Soviet bureaucrats. Which ultimately pissed away the union.
      1. Chisayna
        Chisayna 28 February 2016 12: 55
        -2
        Comrade Stalin, Russia should say thank you, not only for the "fiery revolutionaries" but also for the "doctors of poisonous pests" for the Comintern, for a lot.
      2. Stiletto_711
        Stiletto_711 6 March 2016 14: 01
        0
        Not in any way justifying Stalin's mistakes, I will note, he crushed, along with the "fiery revolutionaries" and the Trotskyists, who looked at Russia as fuel in the fire of the world revolution. So who knows, to ignite the "fiery revolutionaries" give them such an opportunity Stalin.
    4. Bayonet
      Bayonet 28 February 2016 15: 49
      +7
      Quote: PKK
      in huge quantities, which will appear suddenly, stunning the enemy. As it was, for example. with Armata.

      laughing Amused with a huge amount of Armat and a dumbfounded enemy!
      To drive you into a sharashka, maybe what's worthwhile and bungle? Or is this method for others?wink
    5. Conrad
      Conrad 28 February 2016 17: 04
      +1
      Quote: PKK
      In the event of a serious conflict, our helicopters will be killed as partridges, only aircraft will have to fight back.

      You can think much better on ATGM aircraft? !!!
      1. teron
        teron 29 February 2016 15: 54
        0
        No, the infantry will have to fight back with the help of a Kalashnikov and a famous mother.
  4. report4
    report4 28 February 2016 06: 12
    10
    Quote: PKK
    In the event of a serious conflict, our helicopters will be killed as partridges, only aircraft will have to fight back.

    You won't believe it! In the event of a "serious conflict," the helicopters of either side will not even take off. Due to their low speed and small combat radius, they are only suitable for chasing the Papuans across the deserts.
    1. Mooh
      Mooh 28 February 2016 11: 38
      +7
      Yeah, of course, and the Soviet Union riveted them in thousands to Papuans to drive through the desert. There were no other tasks.
  5. Strashila
    Strashila 28 February 2016 06: 23
    24
    The Apache Longbow avionics provide: automatic detection of stationary and moving targets at the maximum firing range; identification and determination of the importance of each target in five classes (classifies and prioritizes); tracking targets whose coordinates relative to the helicopter are transmitted to the rocket if it is outside of the target homing head's capture zone; transmission of the exact coordinates of detected targets to other helicopters, attack aircraft or ground points. "... all electronics work according to the same logic, but after looking at the use of systems with" high intelligence "by the Americans in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria ... to become a real target ... hospitals, wedding corteges, excavators.
    Let’s get back to operation ... American equipment will be able to work at 100% humidity and 50 degree heat ... ours can, it is proved in practice.
    The American will work only in the system ... there is still something to be bought for this helicopter ... the helicopter is only for the performer, reconnaissance and target designation are carried out by completely different systems, and that’s what else they need to be bought.
    Buying Apaches for Indians will create a lot of questions ... with an expensive solution.
    1. SPACE
      SPACE 28 February 2016 07: 29
      11
      Quote: Strashila
      there’s still something to buy for this helicopter ...

      And also, to buy additional terrain folds and other objects of protection, because of which the Apache will safely observe and fire))) Even after "fired-forgot", it must be equipped with a "remembered-appreciated" system that will determine the degree of damage to the object, this is not air defense , where it just disappeared from the radar screen))) And of course, his avionics are so unique that they will reveal camouflaged objects and calculate false targets, but like his invisible brother f 35 no one will see or hit him))) In general, the main concept works USA "shoot from the corner" but this concept is not for large-scale warfare, but for local tasks is redundant.
      1. Strashila
        Strashila 28 February 2016 07: 33
        +9
        "And of course his avionics are so unique that they will reveal camouflaged objects and calculate false targets" ... all this until our electronic warfare is turned on.
        1. evge-malyshev
          evge-malyshev 28 February 2016 11: 10
          -3
          Quote: Strashila
          "And, of course, his avionics are so unique that they will detect disguised objects and calculate false targets" ...


          All this until our electronic warfare switches on.
          It’s not without reason that Breedlaw’s point is played by the superiority of our electronic warfare equipment.
        2. sa-ag
          sa-ag 28 February 2016 16: 05
          +4
          Quote: Strashila
          all this until our electronic warfare switches on.

          Let me remind you of the words of the head of KRET "... any emitting device is direction finding", after that there are organizational conclusions that are incompatible with life
    2. Kent0001
      Kent0001 28 February 2016 09: 54
      +3
      But the grandmothers will get the Americans for this, not us. We are lagging behind in technical terms, and we should not try to justify this lag.
    3. Pimply
      Pimply 28 February 2016 11: 33
      +6
      Quote: Strashila
      .. all electronics work according to the same logic, but after looking at the use of systems with "high intelligence" by the Americans in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria ...

      Electronics can reduce the likelihood of hitting civilian targets. Or do you want a perfect pure war? And you think, for example, that in Syria our only strike military targets? Especially in the fight against an unconventional army mixed with civilians? Good morning, wake up. Thanks to modern technology, civilian casualties are several times smaller than they could be. Previously, you think everything was cleaner? Just thanks to modern information technology, we know about these incidents.
  6. tchoni
    tchoni 28 February 2016 07: 25
    10
    The author is a little disingenuous. He takes one problem and writes about its solution using various systems under strictly defined conditions, moreover, favorable for one of the systems.
    And now let's go back to the beginning a bit and imagine that both Apache and Mi28 are forced to support a banal infantry attack, adjusted by a ground-based aircraft gunner, fired with nurses and other amenities. And then the armor mi28 will be oh, by the way ... I think so.
    1. Mera joota
      Mera joota 28 February 2016 08: 58
      +8
      Quote: tchoni
      And now let's go back to the beginning a bit and imagine that both Apache and Mi28 are forced to support a banal infantry attack, adjusted by a ground-based aircraft gunner, fired with nurses and other amenities.

      As it will be with the Americans, without an UAV, of course.
      The PAN establishes the coordinates of the target to be hit, sends it to Apache, where the operator enters the target data into the JAGM and that one makes a launch because of the fishing line, the missile hits the target, the infantry moves on.
      Or. The PAN sets the coordinates of the target, illuminates it with a laser target indicator, transmits data about the target to Apache, because of the fishing line it launches Hellfire, the missile hits the target, the infantry moves on.

      The situation with the Mi-28.
      The PAN establishes the coordinates of the target and transfers it to the Mi-28, it goes to the target and begins its visual search to adjust the PAN, after which it hits the target with the selected ammunition.

      In the case of Apache, the helicopter is at a safe distance for it; in the case of Mi-28, the helicopter is forced to expose itself to possible enemy fire.
      1. tchoni
        tchoni 28 February 2016 10: 58
        10
        I would agree with you, but often, with the support of the infantry, tasks are set something like this: "to the right of the fork there is a greenhouse, behind it there is a ravine. Dobani there, the mortarmen dug in there along the way. And then walk on the greenery. There are spirits scurrying around."
        It’s me that not all goals are targeted. Not always they can be highlighted. It is not always possible to use precision munitions. And army aviation is often the only way to support a unit operating in isolation. (e.g. intelligence).
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Conrad
        Conrad 28 February 2016 17: 37
        +2
        Destruction of mobile, small-sized, mainly armored targets at the forefront and in tactical depth is the main task of Army Aviation (AA Charter)
        And here’s the question for you as an expert on modern combined arms combat: And with what accuracy
        Quote: Mera Joota
        PAN sets the coordinates of the target to be hit,
        if the target, for example, T 72 (3 * 7 m. roughly) and you need to hit it not in the picture area, but in a weak spot? How to solve this problem?
        Quote: Mera Joota
        the operator enters the target data into the JAGM and the latter makes a start due to fishing line

        Let me explain: 1500 mm of armor penetration, no matter where in the tank, does not destroy it, and even, sometimes it is not guaranteed to be disabled! And if the target is a machine-gun nest? (0,5 * 1m) And a tank, an infection, can maneuver, hide behind the folds of the terrain, a machine gunner, a reptile, change positions and other participants in the battle do not sit and do not wait for smart ammunition to fly to them, like the Iraqis from of ambulance crews in rollers on the Yu tube!
        My firm opinion: without real personal observation of the battlefield by the weapon operator, a helicopter (any) is no more useful than ordinary "smart" or not very artillery, but it is much more expensive.
        But if the helicopter "hangs" (figuratively) over the battlefield, the weapons operator and the pilot personally take part in the battle, identify and hit targets at the request of the infantry in real time, this is not artillery, this is army aviation, which multiplies the power of the infantry tenfold ... (Although this kind of combat use is terribly terrible for the crews!) For such a battle, completely different qualities are required from the machine than those described in the article! Reservations, mobile precision small arms and missiles with good armor penetration.
        For shooters with MANPADS, the supported infantry should "worry" - don't let them raise their heads! (Like the destruction of ATGMs and grenade launchers, the task is not for tankers, but again for supporting infantry)
    2. Nikolay K
      Nikolay K 28 February 2016 10: 24
      +4
      The task is to support the infantry attack from the last century. It is only the Papuans and the "moderate" opposition in Syria that can be so drenched until they have elementary MANPADS. Otherwise the turntables sprinkled like peas. India, apparently, is not going to fight the Papuans. She needs attack helicopters to destroy tank formations. And for this task, our Attack is fundamentally unsuitable. And no matter how good the carrier is, the final result of its work is important.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 28 February 2016 11: 13
        +5
        Quote: Nikolai K
        The task is to support the infantry attack from the last century.
        She needs attack helicopters to destroy tank formations


        Everything is exactly the opposite. It is precisely the "destruction of tank formations" that is a task from the last century.

        Modernity requires much greater versatility.
      2. tchoni
        tchoni 28 February 2016 11: 28
        +6
        Quote: Nikolai K
        The task is to support an infantry attack from the last century. It is only the Papuans and the "moderate" opposition in Syria that can be so drenched until they have elementary MANPADS.

        You don’t have to talk about yesterday. Task as a task. It is more common than the task of destroying tank wedges. And not to be ready for its implementation means to doom yourself to the loss of people and technology.
        Regarding the "Attack", its range, as well as the range of the "helfire", very often depends on the source which the performance characteristics leads. As, however, and armor penetration.
        But, in general, it is about the same in terms of performance characteristics. Each with its own advantages and disadvantages. Helfaer implements the principle of shot-and-forget. The attack is a radio command. The military is still arguing which is better. Right now, the general trend is to combine these two methods. Some modifications of helfire implement it. I haven’t heard about the attack yet. To steer the attack, as the person writes in the article on the tracer, is not necessary. You need to hold the marker on the target.
        By air defense - for every sly ass there is a thing with a screw - and here. And the complexes of electronic warfare, and thermal traps, and dipole, and heat dissipators, and armor, and duplication of control systems, even two daizhki working on one screw - all this is here. the Americans imprisoned the helicopter under precision weapons, ours, under the influence of the Afghan experience, made them as universal as possible.
        Helicopters are of the same age, ATGMs are practically the same.
        I can not say anything about the circumstances of a particular tender and the reason for Apache's victory.
        But, like that, to smear the car on the basis of isolated facts and outright fraud is very laughable. Don't believe me? - type in the Internet "stronghold against armata" - you will learn so many new things.
  7. Hooks
    Hooks 28 February 2016 07: 30
    +5
    "Today, none of the samples of Russian weapons being created can be 100% provided with elements of domestic production."
    Well, yes, of course, a particular advantage of the Western avionics is the ability to quickly replace failed Chinese components!)
    Sold the Indians, well, that is not much.
    1. Strashila
      Strashila 28 February 2016 07: 36
      +1
      "Well, yes, of course, a particular advantage of the western avionics is the ability to quickly replace failed Chinese components!" ... and in these microcircuits, the Chinese comrades left a bunch of "black doors", so not only Americans can get into the Apache system .. developers, but also the Chinese ... manufacturers, but the disgusting thing is that China is the same for India is a potential enemy.
    2. 73bor
      73bor 28 February 2016 09: 41
      +1
      That is what the congressmen were surprised, why are there Chinese microcircuits on the Tomahawks?
  8. engineer
    engineer 28 February 2016 07: 51
    -3
    uh guys. modern means of electronic warfare will negate all the advantages of a powerful bius. there were examples. with the same American destroyer. so the good old inertial systems and contact fuses will be most effective. not super bells and whistles.
    1. mav1971
      mav1971 28 February 2016 16: 28
      +3
      Quote: engineer
      uh guys. modern means of electronic warfare will negate all the advantages of a powerful bius. there were examples. with the same American destroyer. so the good old inertial systems and contact fuses will be most effective. not super bells and whistles.


      Engineer, I’ll also tell you - find the story of the story about the American destroyer.
      For self-education.
      This is useful.
      so knowledge is obtained.
      And the brain begins to work correctly.
      Learning to analyze.
      That would not look at all ... Well, it’s unpleasant to look at such a "decsat" ...
  9. letinant
    letinant 28 February 2016 07: 56
    11
    The article is of course complete IT. Comparison of APACH and MI-28H, generally about nothing. Before writing, you need to know the subject, the latest ATGM ATGM modifications hit the target more than 10km. AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire

    Firing Range, m 0.5 - 9000
    Rocket flight speed, M 1.1
    Rocket weight, kg 45.7
    Case Diameter, mm 178
    Length, mm 1630
    Swing stabilizers, mm 326

    This is the one that flies 16 km. This is what I need, I repeat the article IT.

    ABRAMS stuck, M1A2SEP modification on which they installed color LCDs and replaced hinged armor plates with depleted uranium by unknown what. Voprs, where is active protection and how color LCDs protect against ATGMs.

    Well, at least I first studied the subject, I dug up the information in five minutes.
    1. Alex 1972
      Alex 1972 28 February 2016 09: 33
      -1
      Quote: letinant
      and replaced the depleted uranium hinged armor plates with unknown what

      So in 5 minutes, as you say, it is already known what was replaced.
      2nd generation uranium armor was replaced by 3 generations of uranium armor.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 28 February 2016 10: 36
        +2
        And how did they replace the armor on these tanks - the hulls were cut.
    2. mav1971
      mav1971 28 February 2016 16: 36
      +1
      Quote: letinant
      The article is of course complete IT. Comparison of APACH and MI-28H, generally about nothing. Before writing, you need to know the subject, the latest ATGM ATGM modifications hit the target more than 10km. AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire

      Firing Range, m 0.5 - 9000
      Rocket flight speed, M 1.1
      Rocket weight, kg 45.7
      Case Diameter, mm 178
      Length, mm 1630
      Swing stabilizers, mm 326

      This is the one that flies 16 km. This is what I need, I repeat the article IT.

      ABRAMS stuck, M1A2SEP modification on which they installed color LCDs and replaced hinged armor plates with depleted uranium by unknown what. Voprs, where is active protection and how color LCDs protect against ATGMs.

      Well, at least I first studied the subject, I dug up the information in five minutes.



      Learn for yourself.
      Brimstone and the latest helphyres fly from helicopters to the 10-12.
      From Aircraft or UAV to 20.

      Attack 1М120Д - also can fly of course not on 10, but on 8 it is easy ...
      After all, we are talking about cumulative versions, on the 10 the version with a high-explosive warhead flies.
      But
      she is not in the army.
      BUT
      her - it is necessary to accompany the entire flight along the line of sight.
      Those. the helicopter must always be on the line of fire.
      There is no trace of the principle of "fire and forget".
      Accordingly, for modern combat - not adapted.
      Only, as they say here, "drive the Papuans."
  10. yuriy55
    yuriy55 28 February 2016 07: 56
    13
    And I liked the article for its frankness and kind criticism of the Russian manufacturer. The entire government can ride a Lada-Kalina in front of the camera, and drive to work BMW и Ford.

    Only real competition and the correct perception of events allows us to create such types of weapons, from which a potential adversary starts diarrhea. Well, the shortcomings have been identified, time allows us to create (modernize) our Mi-28 NE in such a way that neither "long bows" nor "Gnarled hands" can reach its characteristics.
    soldier
  11. Yurmix
    Yurmix 28 February 2016 08: 03
    +2
    It must be assumed that the creators of the Mi-28NE did not monitor the modernization of foreign armored vehicles and did not carry out adequate technical measures.

    What does the author consider under those events? and only on-board weapons with electronics is the whole story. All the same, the first thing to do is to compare the performance characteristics of both and the reliability of the work in practice, Apache Apaches, where are the vidyushkas of vaunted devices with their aces? All the same, the author should have paid attention to REB which could be applied in 10 years by amerikoses, but for now it was possible not to write such one-sided articles.
    1. samuil60
      samuil60 28 February 2016 10: 04
      +2
      Yeah. Despite the fact that our guys worked quite effectively in Syria, and something is not heard that at least someone was shot down. And ISIL has more than enough of any small air defense of American and European production from ISIS! In addition to the sophisticated technology, you need quite a bit more - the ability to fight without fear of losing your precious life. And the Americans with this - somehow not very ...
      1. 73bor
        73bor 28 February 2016 10: 40
        +4
        I’m just wondering how ours are fighting in Syria, and only one was shot down, and then, treacherously, our home was falling more at that time due to flying accidents!
        1. sds87
          sds87 28 February 2016 13: 51
          +2
          Are you sure that you have all the information about the operation in Syria? Only what they want to tell us reaches us. Real losses are classified and can be voiced not by Russia, but by another observer country. Information will be dispensed only when the political games go.
          1. Maegrom
            Maegrom 28 February 2016 15: 06
            0
            Of course they would not tell, but the problem is in YouTube. At every air defense at least one person with a camera yes, do not worry.
          2. Trophxnumx
            Trophxnumx 28 February 2016 23: 14
            0
            Even if the Russian Defense Ministry classified its losses, our enemies would know them, and modern geopolitics and political logic is such that our "partners" would try to make sure that everyone, and especially the Russians, knew about these losses, but fortunately they are not. More questions will be ???
        2. sa-ag
          sa-ag 28 February 2016 16: 09
          +2
          Quote: 73bor
          I’m just wondering how ours are fighting in Syria, and only one was shot down, and then treacherously,

          And who betrayed whom? I don’t remember Erdogan swearing oath to Putin, do not repeat on TV
      2. sa-ag
        sa-ag 28 February 2016 16: 08
        +2
        Quote: samuil60
        Yeah. Despite the fact that our guys worked quite effectively in Syria, and something is not heard that at least someone was shot down. And ISIL has more than enough of any small air defense of American and European production from ISIS! In addition to the sophisticated technology, you need quite a bit more - the ability to fight without fear of losing your precious life. And the Americans with this - somehow not very ...

        And what about the clashes with the American army in Syria?
        1. fzr1000
          fzr1000 29 February 2016 01: 52
          0
          Of course not, and the "blacks" are not American, not Chinese, not Russian, but only locally made MANPADS and ATGMs.
  12. baudolino
    baudolino 28 February 2016 08: 11
    +7
    The preferences of the Hindus - this is still not the ultimate truth.
    1. goose
      goose 29 February 2016 16: 03
      0
      Moreover, a similar competition in Sweden was won by the Mi-28, where Apache was there, and the Tiger, and others.
  13. midashko
    midashko 28 February 2016 08: 12
    +6
    No wonder: they again forgot about the ammunition, as well as for the Armata tank, we all want to leave with old ammunition. Of course, it is more efficient to report on the creation of a new car. But without new ammunition and control systems, this is just a beautiful shell.
    The ammunition industry has not practically developed since the 90s, but continues to degrade and die: there are no personnel, research institutes have pensioners or highly efficient managers, there are no wages, factories are ruined, and there is practically no state defense order either. Apparently, the collapse of the conventional ammunition industry has passed the point of no return and reforming it no longer makes sense; it is required to create this industry from scratch.
  14. eugraphus
    eugraphus 28 February 2016 08: 19
    11
    The future belongs to high-tech weapons. And all the talk that the "brick" is more reliable than electronics in 100% humidity and heat, complacency for those who are preparing for the last war. An excuse for those who mold a cannon from an armored personnel carrier to a modern helicopter. You can calm yourself down that it's cheaper, faster, you don't need to readjust the power ... But in the end we still lose. Why wait until "the roast cock has pecked"? Like in 2008, when we suddenly saw that we were lagging behind in drones, in communications, in high-tech materials ... Well, it's good that we made the right conclusions. Any electronics are not perfect at first, then they are being finalized, unless of course they are working on it, and not looking for reasons for inaction.
    1. Mooh
      Mooh 28 February 2016 11: 51
      +6
      "Cannon from an APC" is not at all such an epic file as described in the article. It is heavier, not because it is not adapted to the helicopter, but because it is more powerful, longer-range, and has significantly better armor penetration. We have a bulk of short-barreled light air cannons, and the 2a42 was installed on the helicopter quite deliberately.
  15. ava09
    ava09 28 February 2016 08: 27
    +7
    Quote: aktanir
    in a category such as attack helicopters, we are lagging behind. And I think this gap is 10-20 years. Something needs to be done.

    The statement about nothing ... We are lagging behind in the element base for radio electronics since the time of Khrushch, who called cybernetics "The Corrupt Girl of Imperialism", but this is not enough, today we put Chubais and other criminals like Ponomarev on Skolkovo. And if we can somehow cope with other problems, then through its agents of influence, the West does not give us a chance to somehow correct the situation in electronics. And in modern conditions, this is the basis of all foundations, without it "breakthroughs" in any other area are useless.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. creak
      creak 28 February 2016 10: 03
      +5
      Quote: ava09
      this is not enough, today we put Chubais and other criminals on Skolkovo, such as Ponomarev.

      Quote: ava09
      , The West does not give us a chance to somehow rectify the situation in electronics.


      It turns out where the dog is buried - it turns out the policy in the field of electronics development is determined by Chubais and Ponomarev, and not the Government and the President?
      From the very beginning, no one took Medvedev's favorite toy, Skolkovo, seriously (but the budget was mastered) and it was never even close to being an analogue of Silicon Valley and it never defined anything ...
      So far, Vice Premier Rogozin, and not unknown to anyone Ponomarev to electronics, is stepping into the defense industry complex. The orders for VIVT and the corresponding requirements for it are being developed by the Moscow Region headed by Shoigu. Are these agents of influence, or is the West simply preventing them from working?
      And this again, the omnipresent West does not allow us to develop electronics, and not our own inertia and unwillingness to keep up with the times and the habit of living the old way, until the roasted rooster pecks in a famous place ...
      Everything is just like in this ditty:
      If suddenly Proton fell
      Washington is guilty ...
      And who else, really? .. what
      Of course, if they weren’t pests (no, they used to be, now they are agents of influence) we would show them all ... am
      And so the bourgeoisie knit us hand and foot and our special services cannot do anything ...
  16. meandr51
    meandr51 28 February 2016 08: 31
    +7
    Undeservedly forgotten Ka-50. He had real circular protection from 13 mm armor-piercing bullets and a small frontal projection. The criticism of having one pilot is unconvincing. They did a great job in Chechnya. Just hardware intrigues and stupidity of officials.
    1. sabakina
      sabakina 28 February 2016 11: 08
      +7
      Quote: meandr51
      Undeservedly forgotten Ka-50. He had real circular protection from 13 mm armor-piercing bullets and a small frontal projection. The criticism of having one pilot is unconvincing. They did a great job in Chechnya. Just hardware intrigues and stupidity of officials.

      I absolutely agree with you! I remember a newspaper article where it was said that the pilots of the KA-50 were persuaded to stay after a business trip, because the Mikoyans were simply incapable of what KA-50 was "doing" ... And I also remembered. There the military said: "Everything that is shown in the movie" Black Shark "is true!"
      The article was in the Russian newspaper for 20 ... a shaggy year.
      1. tforik
        tforik 1 June 2016 20: 18
        0
        Cool film. Although it ka50 fights with the Papuans)

        Not sure if he also had fun flying at a well-protected base in the USA)
  17. engineer
    engineer 28 February 2016 08: 32
    +1
    there is a shield on every sword. there are already amy shells. which destroy electronics in a radius of 3-5 kilometers. and there are ways to modernize. I'm not talking about actions in terms of the use of nuclear weapons. electromagnetic pulse and ionizing radiation guaranteed to destroy all semiconductor equipment. so the lamps are still useful. checked. within a radius of 200 kilometers from an explosion of 100 kilotons, all communications fail.
  18. BS59
    BS59 28 February 2016 08: 52
    -1
    the author wrote nonsense full of this from the area they have more money they are stronger than American helicopters in the same Afghanistan and specifically this Apache does not have to fly since this technique is very unreliable in dust conditions they just fail without any enemy most of all and most effectively our mi-24 and mi-8 are practice and not couch experts! but the Indians were in full again and again regretted that they contacted with capricious Americans
    1. Mera joota
      Mera joota 28 February 2016 09: 12
      -2
      Quote: BS59
      American helicopters in the same Afghanistan, and specifically this Apache, do not have to fly since this technique is very unreliable in dusty conditions

      What a discovery ... They are not there and never have been?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Alex 1972
        Alex 1972 28 February 2016 09: 41
        11
        What a discovery ... They are not there and never have been?
        Dear couch general.
        Link specifically for YOU. hi
        1. RomanS
          RomanS 28 February 2016 11: 20
          +2
          Visual video of the use of a helicopter in conditions of fire resistance. Yankee Bravo! As always the greatest (the pilot himself hoots from coolness). Thank you for the video.
        2. Pimply
          Pimply 28 February 2016 11: 38
          +3
          Quote: Alexey 1972
          What a discovery ... They are not there and never have been?

          he is not a sofa general. He makes fun of the frame, which wrote garbage about dust
        3. Valera999
          Valera999 28 February 2016 22: 04
          0
          Well, they are fattening with Helfaire for the 1st person, they even shoot, they are completely insolent ((
    2. kote119
      kote119 28 February 2016 10: 08
      +4
      Apaches fly normally in Afghanistan, and all conflicts unleashed by Americans from 91 g took place in deserts and mountains, and if Apache has any disadvantages, they do not particularly affect its use in difficult conditions
    3. mav1971
      mav1971 28 February 2016 16: 47
      +4
      Quote: BS59
      the author wrote nonsense full of this from the area they have more money they are stronger than American helicopters in the same Afghanistan and specifically this Apache does not have to fly since this technique is very unreliable in dust conditions they just fail without any enemy most of all and most effectively our mi-24 and mi-8 are practice and not couch experts! but the Indians were in full again and again regretted that they contacted with capricious Americans


      Those. the Americans. the Dutch, the British flew and fly in Afghanistan on hang gliders ...
      Well, really do not carry nonsense.
      Full of countries use Apaches both in hot and humid and alpine climates.

      Hot, dusty sand.
      Egypt
      Bahrain
      Sauddites
      Emirates
      Kuwait
      Qatar
      Israel.

      Hot and humid
      Indonesia.
      Singapore
      India now.

      Wet
      South Korea
      Taiwan.

      These are countries.
      Americans and British use Apaches around the globe at all of their bases.
      And where it is very cold the same. like Alaska.
  19. oracul
    oracul 28 February 2016 08: 52
    +3
    It would be extremely naive to think that you can occupy some niche in the market, and then just cut coupons. India, and other arms buyers alike, are trying not to put their eggs in one basket. This is, firstly. Secondly, as financial opportunities expand, many have a desire to buy more expensive and sophisticated Western "toys". So, people take advanced smartphones and iPhones, even when there is no real need for it. We must calmly work on improving military equipment and making it more and more effective. It is strange that the author took the liberty of assessing negatively the professionalism of the people who made the decisions.
  20. black
    black 28 February 2016 08: 56
    +1
    Article minus. The 2A42 gun hit the BMP-2 from aircraft. The gun is aviation. If the author does not know this, there is nothing to swindle at the analytical article. Americans sell their Apaches with one hand, and our MI-17 with the other. Where is the combat use of these Apaches? Continuous advertising.
    1. Igor39
      Igor39 28 February 2016 09: 09
      +4
      2A42 was installed on BMP 2 for the first time, but BMP 2 did not fly, at least I did not see it.
    2. kote119
      kote119 28 February 2016 10: 12
      +1
      Quote: black
      Americans sell their Apaches with one hand, and our MI-17s with the other.

      they buy not for themselves Mi-17, but for the army of Afghanistan
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 February 2016 10: 38
      -5
      In terms of armor penetration, our gun is inferior to the American one.
      1. avia1991
        avia1991 28 February 2016 15: 15
        +2
        Quote: Vadim237
        In terms of armor penetration, our gun is inferior to the American

        This is not true pure water: with the same caliber, our shell has a length of 50 + mm longer, plus a more powerful powder charge! Effective range - 4 km against 2 at Apache. And what is more powerful, tell me? Given that the 2A42 was originally designed to combat lightly armored targets? ..
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 28 February 2016 17: 22
          +3
          But the truth is that we are not armed with a cumulative 30 mm shell, and the M270 gun that is located on the Apache has armor-piercing cumulative M789 with armor penetration of 300 mm homogeneous armor, our 30 mm BOPS penetrates 1000 mm armor at a distance of 47 meters, and we are not in a hurry to release new ammunition.
          1. Forest
            Forest 28 February 2016 19: 25
            0
            Where did you find such numbers? We never had a BOPS for the gun, for 2A42 they are only available in Europe, and standard armor-piercing guns are even inferior to KPVT. The cumulative M230 pierces 60, but not 300 mm.
          2. goose
            goose 29 February 2016 16: 22
            +2
            Quote: Vadim237
            armor-piercing - cumulative M789

            That's all GD does for the M230.
            MP - M788 TP - M977 TP-T - M789 HEDP
            Indicate here armor-piercing cumulative.

            I would laugh about a cumulative in a caliber of 30 mm, and even piercing> 10 calibers.
            The sense of reality refuses you.
      2. sandrmur76
        sandrmur76 28 February 2016 21: 54
        0
        The gun does not penetrate, unless of course it does not rush. It penetrates the projectile drinks And the muzzle energy surrenders to me that 2A42 is higher. And no one forbade to renew the ammunition.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 29 February 2016 10: 45
          0
          Only with us ammunition are in no particular hurry to update.
          1. goose
            goose 29 February 2016 16: 32
            0
            There is a punch, penetration of 54 mm at a distance of 1 km, at an angle of 60 mm. Almost any common BMP is enough.
  21. Ramzes33
    Ramzes33 28 February 2016 09: 01
    0
    Article plus. The use of Mi-28NE in real combat conditions with different climatic conditions and opponents of various qualifications will allow us to assess the shortcomings and refine the turntable. The priority seems to be the completion of ATGMs to the level of shot-forgot with minimal time for target detection, aiming, launch.
  22. Hammer
    Hammer 28 February 2016 09: 01
    +5
    For example, it is completely useless for a Mi-28NE helicopter to fire an Ataka rocket with an M1A2 SEP tank, on which a highly effective active defense system is installed

    Clear. I wasted my time. Till
    1. to persuade
      to persuade 29 February 2016 00: 22
      0
      Fired from behind? Ah, the same
  23. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 28 February 2016 09: 03
    10
    The article is dubious, to put it mildly. Firstly, it was published back in 2004. Secondly, our helicopter lost the tender due to the incompleteness of the main gearbox and problems with the detuning of electronic equipment. This has long been eliminated. Many characteristics of the machines cited by the author are sucked from finger. What does our helicopter really have -
    The BREO Mi-28N complex, in terms of its technical characteristics, meets the requirements for aircraft equipment of the 5th generation. The main developer - Federal Research and Production Center "RPKB"

    The complex of on-board electronic equipment Mi-28N provides:

    automated distribution of goals in a group
    combat use of the helicopter around the clock and in adverse weather conditions;
    performance of combat missions at extremely low altitudes;
    interaction with helicopters of the group, air and ground command posts (KP), aircraft guides;
    joint (parallel) use of weapons by the pilot and operator;
    the ability to adapt new and already used TSA;
    operation of helicopters at considerable distances from airfields and bases due to the use of the principle of equipment maintenance according to technical condition.
    The main structure of the complex includes:

    a unified computing system that provides information processing via a single interface based on Baget-53 computer;
    information and control field of the cabin based on multifunctional liquid crystal indicators MFI-10-6M and multifunctional console PS-7V using a video recording device;
    navigation equipment as part of the high-precision ANN-2000 and the strapdown SBKV-2V-2 course-line with integration with a satellite navigation system, Doppler speed and drift meter (DISS) and an air signal system (SHS), a long-range radio navigation system (RSDN);
    integrated system for detecting radio-electronic and laser radiation and a UV radiation direction finder;
    automatic control system (ACS);
    weapon control system;
    helmet-mounted target designation and indication system;
    surveillance and sighting station for detecting and recognizing objects, aiming, capturing and auto tracking objects on television and thermal imaging channels. The structure includes: a system of stabilization of the line of sight, a system of automatic tracking of targets, an optical-television channel, a thermal imaging channel, a laser range finder;
    Pilot observation and piloting system with night vision goggles, designed for round-the-clock field survey, search and detection of objects (landmarks and obstacles). Composition: low-level television channel, thermal imaging channel, laser range finder;
    helicopter flight complex;
    the on-board communications system KSS-28N-1, provides automatic telecode data exchange with ground control centers and other aircraft equipped with equipment that provides oncoming work; far and near open and classified radio communication through a cryptographic protection product and HF modem. The complex provides simultaneous operation (reception - transmission) through three communication channels, including two telephone channels and one telecode. It works in the mode of the high-pass filter and the frequency hopper
    The avionics also includes the ATT (heat-and-television machine) of the Okhotnik family, developed by the Federal State Unitary Enterprise GRPZ. This product on the Mi-28N helicopter performs the functions associated with the intelligent processing of video images, as a result of which it becomes possible to see the phono-target picture in any weather conditions at any time of the day. For the first time of all Okhotnik models, ATT implements a high-speed digital interface for transmitting video signals during vibration and roll of the helicopter, and automatic detection and tracking of targets is also provided.

    Also, a helicopter is capable of reconnaissance and target designation for combat helicopters and aircraft.


    How nice, right?
    1. Alex 1972
      Alex 1972 28 February 2016 09: 47
      0
      Quote: Dimon19661
      How nice, right?

      Yes, it’s not very bad! And it pleases!
      But would this data be read in the form of a comparison table with Apache?
    2. sevtrash
      sevtrash 28 February 2016 12: 29
      +3
      Quote: Dimon19661
      How nice, right?

      Sounds like a good idea. Well, and comparative data with the effectiveness of the defeat, range? The article is, and you? Compared to Apache? Moreover, if you consider the article since 2004, did Apache and its equipment stay in place during this time?
      In general, it is clear why the Indians chose Apache. Apparently, there is no more effective means of defeating armored vehicles than Apache. Moreover, with such stories of combat use. For the Indians, this is a guarantee that they will knock out even Chinese, even Pakistani tanks.
    3. mav1971
      mav1971 28 February 2016 16: 50
      +1
      Quote: Dimon19661
      The article is dubious, to put it mildly. Firstly, it was published in the distant 2004 year,
      How nice, right?


      I do not know about the article, but the supply contract has just been signed. Literally in the fall of 2015 of the year.
      If there were flaws with the 2004 of the year and they were not eliminated for so many years, then all the designers with jigsaws in Siberia ...
      And praise them is not necessary ...
  24. Leonid L
    Leonid L 28 February 2016 09: 12
    +3
    Tenders are also different, it is enough to remember the victory of "Rafale" for the Indian Air Force.
    1. sevtrash
      sevtrash 28 February 2016 12: 45
      +2
      Quote: Leonid L
      Tenders are also different, it is enough to remember the victory of "Rafale" for the Indian Air Force.

      I read that during the 1999 White Sea operation in the Kargil conflict, the Indians gained a very successful experience of using the Mirage 2000N / TN with guided weapons - they destroyed pillboxes, command posts and more at night. Then it turned out that the Mi24 could not operate in the highlands.
      This makes it clear where they got their interest in Rafal and Apache.
      Who cares - http://vpk-news.ru/articles/5489
      1. Leonid L
        Leonid L 28 February 2016 16: 25
        0
        After the "Syrian experience", everything should change both with contracts and with modernization
  25. exe_74rus
    exe_74rus 28 February 2016 09: 35
    10
    An article a decade ago.
    The author deceived a lot and did not say anything.
    At the moment, it does not reflect anything at all.
    Especially touched, a comparison of guns.
    30mm American M203 and 30mm Soviet 2A42 are two big differences.
    It is impossible to overheat the Soviet gun. This tool was made for use in dusty, overheated conditions of armored vehicles. Soviet guns at times more accurate and armor-piercing. Americans generally abandoned armor-piercing shells. And BC Americans had to increase precisely because of the curvature of the gun. For guaranteed destruction of single targets, they have to release up to ten shells. They can’t get corny.
    What else, the MI-28 today is not an attack but an attack helicopter. This is a battlefield helicopter. The American cannot do this, but don’t put him in it. He is too susceptible to fire. That is why Americans prefer to drive Bedouins on MI-24.
    Well and the most important thing. The direct competitor of Apache today is not MI-28 but KA52. Here you and the radar and the developed SLAs and avionics and aerobatics at altitude.
  26. CTABEP
    CTABEP 28 February 2016 09: 41
    +3
    Of course, the question raised in the article about ATGMs is very logical, but the rest is doubtful. What are 20mm armor penetration at 1500m? A 12,7x108 BS on 750 meters pierces 20mm, and the B-32 is even smaller, and this is at a right angle - so the MI-28 cabin can protect itself from such bullets. Further, the gun - yes, the American is lighter - but still the muzzle energy is less (and armor penetration, despite the cunning shells), and off-shells are lighter - so here, too, not everything is clear.
    1. Forest
      Forest 28 February 2016 10: 44
      0
      That's how the penetration of 12,7 is about 15 mm at 400 m at right angles, but here the data of some kind of automatic gun are generally announced. But with the American gun, yes, penetration by cumulative shells is higher - 60 mm at any distance.
  27. geek2101
    geek2101 28 February 2016 09: 44
    0
    I didn't put anything in the article, I didn't understand what the author's "message" was ...
    Need to develop new weapons systems? - So they are already being developed, and even have been developed, but have not yet been transferred to the operators.
    The economic situation today, as they say, does not favor wide gestures.
    Our advantage has always been the ability to do with a minimum of high-tech (read unreliable, requiring special working conditions) equipment to achieve the same level of efficiency as that of an adversary that has been cluttered with technology.
    Plus, of course, the development of relatively cheap ways to counter these expensive and high-tech means, which usually cost the enemy "a pretty penny" and nullified his many years of work and investment.

    In short, Sklifosofsky. If we cannot compete with the enemy in economic terms, then we must use what has always been called
    "Russian ingenuity".

    Minus one. I allow it. winked
  28. Vanya2013F
    Vanya2013F 28 February 2016 09: 51
    -6
    Milevtsy fellows, cheap and you can make 1000 such buckets, but Kamovtsy (I'm talking about the Ka 52) in the ass. And even though this machine is much better than Apache, the Ka-52 is not exported and ordered to the troops because of the enormous cost and Arsenivtsi is always in the ass. There is no funding for the plant. The Milevtsevs are all in chocolate. Loading on the very tomatoes.
  29. adept666
    adept666 28 February 2016 09: 57
    11
    In this case, the crew’s armored box is made of 10-mm sheets of aluminum alloy, on which ceramic tiles are glued. Such a design can save the crew from 7,62 mm caliber bullets.
    The author would not hurt before any nonsense to bring here a little to dig deeper into the topic.
    So a maximum of 7,62 bullets? laughing
    due to the imperfect design of the dynamic protection (DZ) of Russian tanks (the length of the DZ element is 250 mm)
    Here it is that Mikhalych! Well, all of us have a bad Mi-28 full zero, no dynamic protection for tanks, missiles sucks, grenades and those of the wrong system. crying We all go surrender to the Americans without a fight laughing
    I don't even want to comment on the rest, it is indicative to recall how the Apaches worked with their allies as "hellfire", something the electronics did not help to figure out hu-iz-hu.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 28 February 2016 10: 47
      0
      I wonder why they did not experience the armored resistance of the cockpit to the penetration of armor-piercing bullets of 14,5.
      1. adept666
        adept666 28 February 2016 12: 03
        0
        I wonder why they did not experience the armored resistance of the cockpit to the penetration of armor-piercing bullets of 14,5.
        It makes no sense, from 10 meters B-32: 14,5 × 114 mm will pierce the armor of a stationary armored capsule with a probability of 60%. To set the KPVT to a range of 500 meters (let’s say emulating the actual situation of the battle, because you can hardly get into a helicopter from it at a longer range) it will be difficult to aim at the cockpit with single shots (although they may have fired at someone who knows the movie of some shaggy manufacturing years and state secrets as it were, 12,7 holds quite confidently even glass). Moreover, such a caliber is used by a small number of systems: a pair of machine guns and one sniper rifle (but you can’t shoot too much with helicopters from it). But 7,62 and 12,7 are quite sniper and widespread calibers. Shelling the cabin from a distance of 7-10 m. Such systems as we see is useless, that to speak about real conditions there from 100 meters everything starts. smile
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 28 February 2016 14: 14
          0
          The world is already full of large-caliber sniper rifles and their prevalence in the world is growing every year, one of them is an NTW caliber of 14,5, an effective firing range of 2500 meters - to destroy low-flying helicopters, it is very cheap and effective.
          1. adept666
            adept666 28 February 2016 14: 39
            +2
            to defeat low-flying helicopters, it is the most cheap and effective.
            Well, well ... you don’t disagree so much, get from a distance of 800-1000 meters into a target moving at a speed of 150-250 km / h. In the hover mode, take-off / landing, while parking at the base airfields it is still possible, but not in flight. But the main danger for the helicopter is still fragments from missiles.
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 28 February 2016 17: 07
              0
              If the guys are snipers and will work in tandem, then they will fall with a high probability.
              1. adept666
                adept666 28 February 2016 21: 01
                +1
                If the guys are snipers and will work in tandem, then they will fall with a high probability.
                Unfortunately (or fortunately) I am not a sniper, but I did not see how snipers work at a distance of 800-1000 meters and would not say that it would be realistic to get into a helicopter at such a distance with its horizontal flight even with a spotter. Moreover, one should not get to any places, but to vulnerabilities.
          2. Hecate
            Hecate 28 February 2016 16: 48
            0
            Not everything is so simple. For example, Mi-28 rotors withstand the impact of a 20 mm gun.
          3. Lopatov
            Lopatov 28 February 2016 18: 10
            0
            Not only that, the Barrett M82A2 was designed specifically for this.
            1. adept666
              adept666 28 February 2016 20: 57
              0
              Not only that, the Barrett M82A2 was designed specifically for this.

              Firstly, it is 12,7, not 14,5. Secondly, it was created to defeat light-armored vehicles, including for the failure of radar antennas, as well as aviation equipment in basing places. What makes you think that she is against flying helicopters? request
    2. killganoff
      killganoff 28 February 2016 12: 00
      -6
      Who told you that this particular cabin is used on the serial machine MI-28N? For the sake of deploying avionics and armaments it is necessary to save on something.
      1. adept666
        adept666 28 February 2016 12: 30
        +3
        Who told you that this particular cabin is used on the serial machine MI-28N? For the sake of deploying avionics and armaments it is necessary to save on something.
        Forgive me, but I have never heard more stupid things in my life))) Why develop comprehensive protection, conduct tests, spend a lot of time, effort and money (you don’t need to put one glass into a newspaper to put it in a newspaper laughing ) so that later put another cabin on the helicopter))) For advertising? Duc for advertising and it would not be necessary to strain so would they take sheets of homogeneous armor from the tanks and would be happy - would withstand 33 millimeters on board at a right angle from 10 meters. laughing If you carefully watched the video, then there is not just an armored capsule, but a real cabin with a full dashboard, a pilot's seat and the living pilot himself.
    3. Conrad
      Conrad 29 February 2016 19: 10
      0
      Actually amazing! Mi 28, and 7,62 gives numerous cracks. And here I was, in the parking lot in Korotich, I saw the Mi-24A in the parking lot with a 7,62 bullet in the glass-hour dope and put it on my forehead from 50 m. So, there were no numerous cracks. A flat entrance, a bullet in the glass as in an exhibition. And the review as it was!
      Degrading in 20 years?
      1. adept666
        adept666 1 March 2016 16: 53
        0
        Degrading in 20 years?
        No, the sentry does not have cartridges with armor-piercing bullets, in addition, equipment is usually fired with cartridges 7H14 (7,62 mm rifle sniper cartridge with an armor-piercing bullet) or 7-BZ-3 (7,62 mm rifle cartridge with an armor-piercing incendiary bullet B- 32). The latter is used against aviation. And the distance there is 7-10 meters, not 50.
  30. Hecate
    Hecate 28 February 2016 10: 12
    +5
    1) ATGM ,, Attack '' has 10 modifications, with a launch range of up to 10000 meters and can use radio command, or laser-beam guidance systems. 2) Regarding the booking in general, fake. The Mi-28 bulletproof glass can withstand a 12,7 mm bullet hit. 3) The decision of the Indians is rather a political one. India has bought weapons in different countries before in order to be on the safe side and not get into the history that Russia got into with Mistrals, Ukrainian turbines and German diesels. For example, the Indian Air Force was simultaneously armed with: Soviet MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-27, MiG-29, Su-7, British Jaguar, French Mirage.
  31. Matsuda Kabushiki
    Matsuda Kabushiki 28 February 2016 10: 18
    +3
    I was surprised by the author’s doubt about the MI-28 armor protection, what did he compare it to a tank or something, compared to the Apache on MI-28 the crew’s protection is much higher. On YouTube there is a test video of the Mi-28 armored capsule.
  32. Achilles
    Achilles 28 February 2016 10: 20
    +1
    The author did not mention the most important thing, as far as I know, an electronic warfare system is currently being installed on our helicopters, namely "VITEBSK" which, in turn, fights well with all the missiles fired into the helicopter (when approaching the missiles go to the side), it turns out all the advantage in arming Apache goes to naught
  33. Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 28 February 2016 10: 28
    0
    Copying military equipment can reduce the time it takes to create your weapon. But this path never leads to the level of the original. China is a case in point. When Russia was inferior in some way to a probable adversary, it often found an asymmetric (unexpected for the adversary) way out of a predicament. Goal for fiction is cunning. So says the popular wisdom. Not all performance characteristics of military systems appear in the open press. Maybe it’s not so bad. But there is undoubtedly something to work on ...
    1. paxil
      paxil 28 February 2016 12: 55
      +3
      Quote: Pvi1206
      Copying military equipment can reduce the time it takes to create your weapon. But this path never leads to the level of the original.

      Yes, it is precisely noticed, the Chinese are great copywriters. But they could not copy the S-300, it turned out a miserable parody, but the thing is that in the export version there is a completely different filling, and even they could not lick it. As a result, it turned out that a couple of complexes were cheaply built for Tajiks. Who will tell them secrets? laughing . We tried to copy engines from the SU-30, we couldn’t, only then they began to beg for a patent for the production of engines. Yes, they learn fast, they don’t need to create anything from scratch, they finished everything, they called it their own way. Our automobile industry and consumer goods from them take an example, otherwise it's damn Chinese. wassat I am sitting on a typing text here on a Chinese computer, calling on a Chinese telephone, a Chinese car, a Chinese walk-behind tractor, a TV, also a maidin tea, a kettle and that Chinese one feels like I’m living in China. bully
      1. Valera999
        Valera999 28 February 2016 22: 20
        0
        They could not repeat the production technology, there were no necessary machines, knowledge or documentation.
  34. Matsuda Kabushiki
    Matsuda Kabushiki 28 February 2016 10: 33
    +4
    So the video has already been posted. I wonder what would happen to the vaunted Apache? After such tests ?.
    1. adept666
      adept666 28 February 2016 12: 10
      +1
      So the video has already been posted. I wonder what would happen to the vaunted Apache? After such tests ?.
      Sieve laughing There was such a joke, I saw it somewhere in one of the programs (although it may be an army bike). At one of the exhibitions at the exposition, Apache was placed next to our crocodile (Mi-24), our pilot approaches the miracle of the American engineering school, there the Apache pilot stands and tells the audience that there are such systems, this kind of weapon it allows you to shoot because the front line without entering the affected area, ours went to the car, tapped on the skin and said: yes, with such protection behind the front line you really have nothing to do. laughing Well, this is a joke of course Apache is a very good machine for its purposes and conditions of use.
  35. bratchanin
    bratchanin 28 February 2016 10: 42
    -2
    The author is well done, a good article. Beats pride, so we must silently make the best for 30 years ahead.
  36. Forest
    Forest 28 February 2016 10: 48
    +4
    I wonder what the goal was set by the author, inventing his own performance characteristics for technology? Apache, of course, is a good car, but the designers themselves would like to get the characteristics that the author wrote. Mi-28 generally came up with data from nowhere, looking at the oldest versions of the Mi-2 drums, probably.
  37. solovald
    solovald 28 February 2016 10: 56
    -1
    Good article, honest. If the specifications of the avionics avionics specifications contained therein correspond to the realities, then the results of some tenders on the arms market become clear. It somehow becomes uncomfortable ... a modern helicopter (relatively recently adopted by the RA), developed according to the technical specifications of 1978.
    1. Forest
      Forest 28 February 2016 11: 59
      +1
      Apache is not newer, only honesty in the article, where fantastic in the form of super-piercing bullets and somewhere missing armor in a compartment with KAZ on Abrams were invented - no.
    2. planar
      planar April 28 2016 15: 11
      0
      nonsense. The article is custom-made and thoroughly false. And you less believe what you read on the Internet.
  38. Maz
    Maz 28 February 2016 11: 06
    +5
    Maybe we are lagging behind in something, but egypt buys a ka-52 and india is thinking of building a plant for the production of Mi helicopters. This is the first thing. Secondly "Longboy" is designed for use in light and comfortable conditions of absolute superiority. The author did not give characteristics for comparison in terms of linear speed, range, ascent speed, power-to-weight ratio of the power plants of the Mi-28 helicopter, survivability of engines, work in the mountains, satellite orientation system, bomb armament, carrying capacity ... Conclusion: the author either did it on purpose, or does not cut in the subject. Rather the first. For too professionally stated. For a civilian it will completely fail, but it won't work for me.
    1. CRASH
      CRASH 28 February 2016 12: 52
      +5
      Egypt buys those KA52s that were built for the Mistrals. The MI plant in India, if it went beyond the "talk", then stalled for a long time. All of the above, no one needs it, if the Apache can destroy the tank for 1Hkm just by looking out of the bushes, and ours must hang over the bushes until the rocket reaches, while guessing "They will shoot down, or the rocket will reach first."
      1. cedar
        cedar 28 February 2016 18: 53
        +1
        Quote: CRASH.
        Egypt buys those KA52s that were built for the Mistrals. The MI plant in India, if it went beyond the "talk", then stalled for a long time. All of the above, no one needs it, if the Apache can destroy the tank for 1Hkm just by looking out of the bushes, and ours must hang over the bushes until the rocket reaches, while guessing "They will shoot down, or the rocket will reach first."

        Let it hang, the main thing is that the Mi-8 hangs nearby with the "AB Lever".
        And what, the addition to the link of assault helicopters of an EW helicopter will not hurt.
      2. goose
        goose 29 February 2016 16: 52
        0
        The Whirlwind missile flies at full range for 9 seconds. Not very long.
        1. CRASH
          CRASH 29 February 2016 20: 48
          0
          But she is not all exactly how long the rocket flies, if there are several of them, and they are in battle formation. Let's hope for the "priority" of the target is on our machines.
    2. Valera999
      Valera999 28 February 2016 22: 25
      0
      Thank you laughed heartily.
  39. serverny
    serverny 28 February 2016 11: 06
    +1
    For example, it is completely useless for a Mi-28NE helicopter to fire an Ataka rocket with an M1A2 SEP tank, on which a highly effective active defense system is installed

    For such a frank, ordered lie in a decent society, faces are beaten. Yes, and referring to an article from 2004.

    The author whose order you are working out?
  40. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 28 February 2016 11: 27
    0
    The main reason why Russia loses tenders is ugly maintenance and the provision of spare parts for machinery. That service too.
    1. Valera999
      Valera999 28 February 2016 22: 34
      -3
      Correctly, we do not have a production culture, respectively, there is no culture of service, everything follows from each other, and this is the backwardness of Electronics (satellites still work 1.5 times less than their foreign counterparts), but how can one not recall cooperation with France in this article? to equip electronics (sights), which, due to some events, was covered by NATO.
      On one mechanics in owls. now you won’t leave the battle.
      1. goose
        goose 29 February 2016 16: 56
        +1
        Quote: Valera999
        Correctly, we do not have a production culture, respectively, there is no service culture

        Hey, you sofa technologist, at least go to the factory and see how you need to work. We do not have normal marketing, because it is they who are happy with after-sales service. We have many unemployed engineers, logisticians, everything would be at the level if it were organized by a person with a technical education, and not a small shoot of the Directorate, with a humanitarian inside.
  41. RomanS
    RomanS 28 February 2016 11: 31
    +4
    Of course there is an article, but the information is presented slyly. Its undoubted plus is that you begin to raise reference information on the compared helicopters and their performance characteristics. Thus, raising your level of erudition and common sense. And about what the Indians will buy, it's their problem. "Rafali" are still being purchased, and how many have been supplied to the troops?
  42. Volgobalt
    Volgobalt 28 February 2016 11: 59
    +1
    I remember the phrase "Arms Race", and if you slowed down, you lost not only the race, but also your life!
  43. Navy7981
    Navy7981 28 February 2016 12: 43
    0
    As for the guns: The total weight of the 2a42 minute salvo is about 300 kg. Penetration up to 50 mm, at a range of up to 1000 m. M230 -180 kg armor penetration - 25 mm. at a distance of 500 m. For the rest of the component I do not know.
    1. Forest
      Forest 28 February 2016 14: 17
      +1
      Penetration with a standard projectile for 2A42 - 15 mm at 1000 m, for M230 - 60 mm at any distance, because cumulative warhead.
      1. Navy7981
        Navy7981 28 February 2016 21: 52
        0
        Quote: Forest
        Penetration with a standard projectile for 2A42 - 15 mm at 1000 m, for M230 - 60 mm at any distance, because cumulative warhead.


        oh how !? Well, maybe. True, the KPVT per kilometer of armored personnel carriers is dismantled into parts, and I myself saw how BMP 2 in one southern country spread the production output of an even more southern country to 1200–1300 meters. Well, maybe of course I saw something wrong and wrong. Although in this case I was rather surprised that they hit, damn it. A cumulative 30 mm are of course awesome armor penetration. By the way, they were made because the muzzle energy of the American projectile is extremely low, but I'm not saying that the Amer gun is bad - it is a different, specially designed air gun, due to the large number of ammunition, it works wonderfully in manpower, light equipment and temporary fortifications . Not much will seem. 2a42 gun designed for installation on armored vehicles, having the appropriate return, etc. etc.
        1. Forest
          Forest 29 February 2016 00: 42
          0
          If you are talking about the South African MRAP - then nothing surprising - purely due to energy, it broke the connections, because build quality until recently left much to be desired. The standard blank for 2A42 pierces on 500 m about 25 mm but normal, while the KPVT on 500 m takes a B-32 30 mm bullet. On the kilometer, the 2A42 is superior, but it will not break anything adequately armored. And 60 mm penetration for firing at the tin in the form of an IFV or armored personnel carrier is quite enough, and it will sew through the stern of the tank with proper luck.
      2. goose
        goose 29 February 2016 17: 04
        0
        Kerner - a standard projectile, penetration 54 mm at an angle of 60 degrees per 1000 m, if you lead to a 0-degree American, who actually is not in the army, it will be 90mm, as it were, more.
        1. Forest
          Forest 29 February 2016 19: 44
          0
          ZUBR8 at 1000 m under 60 the hail pierces only 28 mm, this is, firstly, secondly, a rare thing, the purchase of modern ammunition is scanty, mainly Soviet stocks are used.
  44. The comment was deleted.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 28 February 2016 12: 52
      0
      Better than which cars? laughing

      They invited five firms to participate in the competition.
  45. Navy7981
    Navy7981 28 February 2016 12: 54
    0
    Quote: sevtrash
    Quote: Leonid L
    Tenders are also different, it is enough to remember the victory of "Rafale" for the Indian Air Force.

    I read that during the 1999 White Sea operation in the Kargil conflict, the Indians gained a very successful experience of using the Mirage 2000N / TN with guided weapons - they destroyed pillboxes, command posts and more at night. Then it turned out that the Mi24 could not operate in the highlands.
    This makes it clear where they got their interest in Rafal and Apache.
    Who cares - http://vpk-news.ru/articles/5489

    Strange, in Afghanistan they kind of worked in the highlands?
  46. SkyMaXX
    SkyMaXX 28 February 2016 12: 56
    +8
    The fact that the Indians chose Apache is their business, most likely they did not seriously compare the Mi-28 and Apache, they just chose the American car as a ready-made spent shot complex, which has long shown itself to be good.
    But the Mi-28 is a completely different machine, it was created taking into account the tests of the Mi-24 and Mi-8, which were subjected to in Afghanistan and in Chechnya. It was necessary to create a fundamentally new powerful helicopter with powerful armor and a convenient sighting and sighting station in conjunction with a radar, which, by the way, hasn’t been asked in series by the way.
    Design Bureau has created an excellent helicopter, with the best survivability at the moment, it is not so scary to throw it into the sea of ​​fire. It is impossible to shoot down with small arms and even a large 12,7 mm caliber, as well as fragments of 30 mm HE shells are not able to hit a helicopter, it is also very likely that the helicopter will survive when it hits 1-2 MANPADS, they simply will not break through the armor.
    Here is the notorious Apache, it’s just that it’s not possible that the MANPADS will receive serious damage even from small arms 7,62, since there is no full reservation, only the cockpit is slightly protected.
    That's what I agree with the author of the article, this is what it is necessary, not for helicopter pilots, namely manufacturers of missile systems, to create third-generation ATGM missiles, although this is probably the main problem with conservative military officials who always need current weapons and they are bad interfere with the adoption of new developments.
    By the way, at the expense of the American JAGM rocket, adoption is delayed for several reasons, for example, even the AH-64E Guardian does not have such a long-range optical sighting station to see the target at a distance of 16 km, so while there is no point in the new rocket, you can not worry. And besides, in many conflicts of the last 30 years, many have noticed that Hellfire lacks speed and maneuverability to hit targets at speeds above 120 km / h, and launches on air targets in Yugoslavia in 1999 and Iraq 2003. they didn’t lead to anything, they miss, so that the helicopter should hover or fly on counter-catching courses at low speed, and not even do simple maneuvers.
    But our STORM / ATTACK, and in particular the VORTEX, are sufficiently adapted to attack on high-speed helicopters, if only because the missiles are supersonic, unlike Hellfires. And the Whirlwind generally stands apart, because it was developed as a universal missile and was specially made narrow and long, and if the missile misses an air target, then a non-contact fuse is still able to set fire to an enemy machine.
    And for some reason, the author did not take into account the Ka-52, which also stands apart. He is able to exactly like Apache, find several targets at once in automatic mode thanks to the standard radar (unlike the Mi-28) and simultaneously attack 2 (!) Of them at once. Here infa about the targets is immediately transmitted to the optic-electronic complex Shval, the pilot-sniper immediately spotted, selects a priority target and attacks. The difference from Apache is that the complex must lead the rocket to the end, and Apache can drop this business and leave, and the rocket itself will fly. I admit it. Recently, we still had problems with the production of Whirlwind missiles, but with the beginning of 2016, production was finally launched. By the way, the Ka-52 is equipped with electronic warheads that protect the Stinger from MANPADS. No one has it.
    Yes, about the Abrams, in Iraq, the Sturm-S complexes easily hit any Abrams tank with one missile, whose author is lying, if the Sturm could, then the attack can.

    Everything is not so bad as the author is painting, but the enemy really needs to be known in person. And of course we need new 3rd generation ATGMs. Moreover, not only for helicopters, but also for infantry fighting vehicles and infantry.
    1. Valera999
      Valera999 28 February 2016 22: 36
      -2
      These are all words about what will happen and an article about what is now .. ((
      1. goose
        goose 29 February 2016 17: 09
        0
        Quote: Valera999
        These are all words about what will happen and an article about what is now

        Become old, compared the experimental developments on Apache + lies with the already outdated weapons of 7 years ago.
  47. 23424636
    23424636 28 February 2016 13: 07
    +3
    the author clearly overdid it without going into the intricacies of technical comparisons, it’s already evident in style that this person is on the other side of the barricades. and the light obser with the word Russia lost the Indian market for a long time already, the author is Russophobe and works for the US State Department. As for our technology, I believe that lost profits will result in new contracts and developments.
  48. barbiturate
    barbiturate 28 February 2016 13: 12
    +5
    The author greased the article at the end, and it was so interesting to read and everything seems to be right, but why is this?

    "For example, it is completely useless for a Mi-28NE helicopter to fire an Attack missile on an M1A2 SEP tank, on which a highly effective active protection system is installed. The modernization of the Abrams should be completed in 2020."

    It’s something you don’t see active defense systems on American tanks, especially on this modification, and the second: is it possible that with an effective KAZ the Hellfire missile will suffer less and go astray worse? But the author dropped our missile and helicopter in this regard, not fair)
  49. aleksandrs95
    aleksandrs95 28 February 2016 14: 29
    +1
    Yemenis shot down the Emirate’s Apache just the other day, with small arms. Here and the conclusion. Apaches are easily lost in ambushes, with large-caliber weapons. Millions of dollars fall into pieces, I want to notice a failure. And how Apaches work at night is impressive, but that's all. Very vulnerable to counteraction This is where Our MI-28 is almost like a tank.
    1. Valera999
      Valera999 28 February 2016 22: 44
      -2
      Mi24 is also good at large and not very good, not the whole helicopter in armor, do not be naive, weight is everything, the Mi-28's pilot's seats are well protected from large calibers, that's all.
  50. warviking
    warviking 28 February 2016 14: 35
    +2
    It is necessary to add to all comments that with close weight and size characteristics of the MI-38H helicopters, the combat load is 2300 kg compared to 770 kg for the APACH-64.