Military Review

Media: Russia has bypassed the United States in the fight against the military bureaucracy

95
In one of the spheres of military innovations, Russia has definitely bypassed the United States - we are talking about reducing bloated and inefficient command and control devices in the armed forces, writes Portal Portal.




“Historically, the headquarters, which are bureaucratic apparatus, as a rule, continue to increase in size, if they are not periodically reduced. In 2008, Russia managed to reduce the size of its General Staff, ”the newspaper quoted as saying Look.

For the purpose of designating the General Staff, the journalists for some reason use the Russian word "stavka", apparently, by analogy with the Supreme Commander’s Headquarters.

“At the end of the Cold War, the size of the Soviet General Staff grew to almost 10 thousand employees. This is more than ten times more than it was during World War II, and many experts noted that such a large “rate” was much less effective than a more compact version of wartime, the resource notes. “Already in the 1991 year, during the collapse of the USSR, there were appeals to do something with this problem.”

The real reorganization of the General Staff (the reform of Serdyukov) began, according to the author, in 2007.

“As a result, the conservatives were stunned by the scope of the reduction - thousands of high-ranking officials, officers and qualified experts left their posts. However, the exact staffing of the General Staff is a state secret, ”writes resource.

According to the author, there is also talk of excessively bloated military leadership in the United States. The actual size of the Committee of Chiefs of Staff is 4 thousand troops. And 5 thousand people are in the civilian management of the Pentagon.

“Such a“ two-headed ”“ stake ”is not only more Russian, but less effective, because the defense ministry and the general staff often compete and give different answers to the same question,” the article says.

"This only gives reason to believe that reducing the" stakes "in the United States will be a much more complicated process than in Russia," the resource notes.

The author draws attention to China, which followed the example of Russia, significantly reducing the central administration of the PLA.
Photos used:
Vladimir Fedorenko / RIA News
95 comments
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  1. Michael67
    Michael67 27 February 2016 12: 58
    20
    Well, of course. Kinks would be even less. It was when everything that was possible and not was dispersed. And then in a new way ... "We are ours, we will build a new world ...". Subordinates keep quiet, but they patch holes. God grant that it does not happen again.
    1. olegfbi
      olegfbi 27 February 2016 13: 02
      10
      Good, then of course, good!
      But is there a balance between necessary and sufficient? We do not know this, since the staff of the General Staff is State Secret! It remains only to hope that it is observed, given \ remembering Serdyukov's "purges"!
      1. iliitchitch
        iliitchitch 27 February 2016 13: 14
        18
        They dispersed the Arbat Parquet District - and even the enemies started talking about the effectiveness of our army. And what could be the best score.
        1. sub307
          sub307 27 February 2016 14: 21
          11
          "iliitchitch:" ... and even the enemies started talking about the effectiveness of our army. "Yeah ..." started talking "... almost "bros" ..., "partners" right in all areas. And in general - if "state secret", how do they know the true scale of the reorganization and its effectiveness?
          1. cniza
            cniza 27 February 2016 15: 31
            +7
            Quote: iliitch
            They dispersed the Arbat Parquet District - and even the enemies started talking about the effectiveness of our army. And what could be the best score.


            When the enemy praises it is alarming, but when it recognizes the strength in you then it’s nice, but you can’t relax.
            1. iliitchitch
              iliitchitch 27 February 2016 21: 17
              +2
              Quote: cniza
              Quote: iliitch
              They dispersed the Arbat Parquet District - and even the enemies started talking about the effectiveness of our army. And what could be the best score.


              When the enemy praises it is alarming, but when it recognizes the strength in you then it’s nice, but you can’t relax.


              The fact of the matter is that they don’t flatter, but rather scared themselves, and who relaxes?
              One of the Amazons of the stool, I remember, asked in all seriousness: "Why is the soldier standing near the flag at night? Let him go to sleep." About post # 1, in the guards unit there was a case. So we have not stepped forward in recent years, but jumped far and efficiently. You cannot imagine such a denseness.
              1. Maxom75
                Maxom75 27 February 2016 22: 45
                +2
                the place of these Amazons in the bathhouse, where they should be used for the purpose of which they were able to reach, they are not capable of more at the Ministry of Defense. Women are not for war, but for social, health and love.
                1. iliitchitch
                  iliitchitch 27 February 2016 23: 39
                  0
                  Quote: Maxom75
                  place of these Amazons in the bathhouse


                  Yes, anywhere, but what would not get into their own business.
                2. Sergej1972
                  Sergej1972 28 February 2016 00: 22
                  +1
                  The bath is needed exclusively for washing and for nothing more. Everything else is a perversion.)
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. sgazeev
            sgazeev 27 February 2016 21: 18
            0
            Quote: sub307
            "iliitchitch:" ... and even the enemies started talking about the effectiveness of our army. "Yeah ..." started talking "... almost "bros" ..., "partners" right in all areas. And in general - if "state secret", how do they know the true scale of the reorganization and its effectiveness?

            In the morning, take a walk around the building and immediately understand. So they counted with calculators. The headquarters of the Ground Forces were given under the Center of the Moscow Region. They were removed to the area away from prying eyes. request
          4. terehvlad
            terehvlad 28 February 2016 07: 54
            0
            from the same place and where the Strategy page considers the VKS unguided bombs to be "inaccurate" https://youtu.be/WgYbiCGYy2c?t=31
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. vic58
          vic58 27 February 2016 14: 45
          +3
          Fear Danians bringing gifts !!
          1. Nick
            Nick 27 February 2016 15: 55
            +2
            Quote: vic58
            Fear Danians bringing gifts !!

            And where are those gifts ...?
        4. jPilot
          jPilot 27 February 2016 15: 12
          +4
          But I doubt that it was the "Arbat Parketny Okrug" that was sacked, I know in the units themselves, yes, all the headquarters services were sacked and all functions were transferred to DEPARTMENTS, but there is no way to get through to these departments. Earlier, he doubted receiving a monetary allowance, went, asked a question, sorted it out, paid extra. And now the truth, you will find hell.
          1. Nick
            Nick 27 February 2016 16: 03
            +2
            Quote: jPilot
            But I doubt that it was the "Arbat Parketny Okrug" that was sacked, I know in the units themselves, yes, all the headquarters services were sacked and all functions were transferred to DEPARTMENTS, but there is no way to get through to these departments. Earlier, he doubted receiving a monetary allowance, went, asked a question, sorted it out, paid extra. And now the truth, you will find hell.

            I explain that the reduction of staff services in units does not mean that the general staff has not been reduced either. There are no cause and effect relationships that allow us to draw such a logical conclusion. Make friends with logic, and some doubts will disappear when you carefully consider the situation.
            1. jPilot
              jPilot 27 February 2016 21: 02
              0
              My friend, my post is not so much about reducing the general staff (I don’t doubt that they have reduced posts, but rightly), but about the mess that happens with departments, and the logic has nothing to do with it. But there is an incident, there is no desire to paint.
        5. Nick
          Nick 27 February 2016 15: 53
          +2
          Quote: iliitch
          They dispersed the Arbat Parquet District - and even the enemies started talking about the effectiveness of our army. And what could be the best score.

          That's it! The level of planning, the quality of the conduct, the effectiveness and efficiency of training and combat operations, this is what can serve as an assessment of the work of the General Staff, and with this we are getting along.
          1. gladcu2
            gladcu2 27 February 2016 21: 19
            0
            Nick

            In any case, reductions shorten the connection and response time for requests.
            Reductions create a redistribution of the load on performers and increase specialization. The level and responsibility of execution is growing. But with an excess of sticks, breaking in narrow places is possible. For example, with overloading a specialist, he can quit and take his experience with him, and a new specialist will not be guaranteed to complete the task until he has gained experience. But there is also the danger that a new specialist will begin to create a task for his level, changing the system work and introducing the destruction of mutual understanding.

            When reducing, it should be noted that some of the functions of the system can be transferred to computer processing. For the sake of what actually reductions are made.

            And a very important component of the reduction is to reduce the tension of the relationship policy within the team. When the sword of Damocles hangs due to non-employment.

            Abbreviations are an unpleasant thing. Nobody likes this. Neither subordinates, nor superiors. This is partly why Serdyukov can be justified, since he had to clean these Avni stables. Good or bad, but did as he did. The system itself will be installed with the help of employees who have been preserved.
        6. sgazeev
          sgazeev 27 February 2016 21: 13
          +1
          Quote: iliitch
          They dispersed the Arbat Parquet District - and even the enemies started talking about the effectiveness of our army. And what could be the best score.

          There were more clerks in uniform. The main staff plowed.
      2. Baikonur
        Baikonur 27 February 2016 13: 15
        +1
        Quote: olegfbi
        We do not know this, because ... - State secret!
        But the Strategy Page portal knows everything! bully
        Russia has definitely bypassed the United States - it is about reducing the bloated and ineffective command and control apparatus in the armed forces, writes the portal Strategy Page.
        Oh, these are America’s !!!
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. NIKNN
          NIKNN 27 February 2016 13: 57
          12

          A bureaucrat is an official whose level of authority exceeds his level of competence.
          1. Rostovchanin
            Rostovchanin 27 February 2016 14: 39
            0
            the graph is certainly beautiful, but if you take the scale, then the 2009 curve should be at the 1996 level ...
      3. Giant thought
        Giant thought 27 February 2016 19: 40
        +1
        In this business, we are definitely well done.
      4. Dilshat
        Dilshat 27 February 2016 22: 25
        0
        Good deed. The main thing then would be spread to the whole citizen.
    2. MASK
      MASK 27 February 2016 13: 07
      +2
      We are still "chess players" ..!
      1. atalef
        atalef 27 February 2016 13: 11
        +1
        Quote: MASK
        We are still "chess players" ..!


        1. Mengsk
          Mengsk 27 February 2016 13: 15
          -26 qualifying.
          - In the military environment it was not fatal, in general ... it was necessary to fight purely with the civilian bloated and ineffective apparatus. In the end, without money, roughly speaking, there is no army. With the economy in its current form, the Russian army would not turn into an analogue of the African ones - a couple of jeeps, a machine gun and a bunch of blacks / Caucasians with Kalashnikovs from the 50s.
          1. RomanS
            RomanS 27 February 2016 13: 43
            15
            Dear Mengsk, to get rid of the illusions of the Russian army, take an interest in the number of exercises for 2015. I especially recommend paying attention to the types of troops participating in them and their number. A Kalashnikov 50 years and today is a very effective weapon.
            1. iliitchitch
              iliitchitch 28 February 2016 03: 36
              -1
              And the military operation in Syria, obviously, is being carried out for candy wrappers from "Bear in the North". Obviously, the number of exercises has decreased. It will be necessary - they will add, but we will not surrender Assad, and this is not at all about Assad.
          2. VP
            VP 27 February 2016 14: 09
            +4
            You wouldn’t rush to this resource if it would threaten Russia.
          3. vic58
            vic58 27 February 2016 14: 49
            0
            Dear, not everyone tolerates a "big brother" in themselves and puffs up like a frog through a straw ... hi
          4. Red_Hamer
            Red_Hamer 27 February 2016 18: 01
            +1
            Bored on the island? Dream, dreaming is not harmful!
    3. Tulip
      Tulip 27 February 2016 14: 06
      +6
      Unfortunately, this is one of the features of the Russian character. If you walk, so until the pig squeal. If you fight, until victory or death. If you break, so to a clean wasteland.
      1. Paranoid50
        Paranoid50 27 February 2016 16: 58
        +3
        Everything is so, to the maximum, no half measures. Still, to the heap - we slowly harness, but drive fast. We create problems ourselves and solve them ourselves. So we are ...
        1. iliitchitch
          iliitchitch 27 February 2016 22: 14
          0
          Quote: Paranoid50
          Everything is so, to the maximum, no half measures. Still, to the heap - we slowly harness, but drive fast. We create problems ourselves and solve them ourselves. So we are ...


          But what about? There is a sign with a skull and bones hanging on a post, it is written: "Don't get in - it will kill!" ... One hundred pounds, we have people who will climb in and check, do you have any doubts? And this is not stupidity, quite understandable curiosity. To rob us (the centuries-old dream of some, um, "civilizers"), you have to climb on the pillar and check. Their intestines are thin.
    4. Denis Obukhov
      Denis Obukhov 27 February 2016 16: 35
      0
      The Russian General Staff, whether inflated in number or not, has always been steeper and more professional than the American military leadership. For Russia, traditions, experience, history. For the Russian army, the history of military victories, brilliant operations. It was led by military geniuses, and they have no number! What about the Americans? Where is the history, traditions of victories, generals? Where is the fighting spirit of soldiers who are able to fight and endure in inhuman conditions, if necessary, and defeat. The history of the Americans did not notice. Therefore, there is no need to draw a parallel, at least some, between the Russian and American army and its leadership: this is even indecent!
      1. sgazeev
        sgazeev 27 February 2016 21: 24
        0
        Quote: Denis Obukhov
        The Russian General Staff, whether inflated in number or not, has always been steeper and more professional than the American military leadership. For Russia, traditions, experience, history. For the Russian army, the history of military victories, brilliant operations. It was led by military geniuses, and they have no number! What about the Americans? Where is the history, traditions of victories, generals? Where is the fighting spirit of soldiers who are able to fight and endure in inhuman conditions, if necessary, and defeat. The history of the Americans did not notice. Therefore, there is no need to draw a parallel, at least some, between the Russian and American army and its leadership: this is even indecent!

        We had professionals, and they were Psaki, Kirby and other trash. drinks
    5. Tor5
      Tor5 27 February 2016 17: 51
      +4
      Unfortunately, sometimes they cut not those and not there.
    6. The comment was deleted.
    7. UralMan
      UralMan 27 February 2016 18: 32
      -2
      Quote: Michael67
      Kinks would be even smaller

      Yeah, it was with a mustache .... they were shot before the war of the military specialists of the royal school ... well then ... remember what happened
      1. Yuri Y.
        Yuri Y. 27 February 2016 19: 57
        0
        Quote: NIKNN
        A bureaucrat is an official whose level of authority exceeds his level of competence.

        I did not understand the units on the chart. 1004.3 million people bottom figure, so many people in Russia do not live. If 1.0043 million people it’s normal, less than the Soviet period, 2-2.4 million people. Probably confused with China))). Although here it is not clear who goes for the plow then))).
    8. sgazeev
      sgazeev 27 February 2016 21: 10
      0
      Quote: Michael67
      Well, of course. Kinks would be even less. It was when everything that was possible and not was dispersed. And then in a new way ... "We are ours, we will build a new world ...". Subordinates keep quiet, but they patch holes. God grant that it does not happen again.

      In the Union of the Ministry of Defense there was a "paradise group", marshals, generals served as inspectors to the grave. Now they seem to have been left as consultants, of course there is no time for "paradise".
  2. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 27 February 2016 13: 00
    +5
    At least some benefit from this thief (Serdyukov) was. He was not from the military, and did not support corporate interests. He waved with an ax, only slivers flew.
    1. Mengsk
      Mengsk 27 February 2016 13: 16
      +2
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      At least some benefit from this thief (Serdyukov) was. He was not from the military, and did not support corporate interests. He waved with an ax, only slivers flew.


      - He created his "corporation" and stole more than anyone before him.
    2. avvg
      avvg 27 February 2016 13: 17
      12
      At the request of Pentogon, it is possible to send Serdyukov to them as an "effective manager" to exchange experience.
      1. sgazeev
        sgazeev 27 February 2016 21: 28
        +1
        Quote: avvg
        At the request of Pentogon, it is possible to send Serdyukov to them as an "effective manager" to exchange experience.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. gladcu2
      gladcu2 27 February 2016 21: 32
      0
      Mountain shooter.

      When Serdyukov and Vasilyev began to be shielded from the ship system, it became clear that the tasks they performed were necessary for the state. As we see over time, the state opens its cards.

      Moreover, as a person who has an idea of ​​the Russian Federation only by the means of information, I just can’t get into one thing. The Russian defense complex is fully loaded. Satellite production and production work, but complaints in the comments on employment are nonetheless serious.

      Of course, I understand the crisis in the integration into the global system has affected all countries. But, in Russia it should be easier, in that case.

      And the third. When evaluating my judgment, do not ask how you care. There is a matter of weight. If countries have strong states, then such countries will survive and let others survive. But in the world there is a steady trend towards the destruction of states. It is annoying.
  3. Zoldat_A
    Zoldat_A 27 February 2016 13: 00
    19
    By budding, are they breeding there in the Arbat military district? No matter how much they cut, but more and more of them ...

    I wouldn’t credit me with Taburetkin’s reduction of the Arbat VO, because he had bad goals. Not an increase in efficiency, but a stupid calculation that each general sits in some office, and not in the smallest one ... Less generals - more space in Arbatsky VO for sale, Vasilyeva on tsatska ... That's all Serdyukov's "optimization" of 2007-2008 ...
    1. demon1978
      demon1978 27 February 2016 13: 05
      +9
      Quote: Zoldat_A
      By budding, are they breeding there in the Arbat military district? No matter how much they cut, but more and more of them ...


      Almost guessed !!!! yes But sooner-CAM yes He climbed himself-drag all relatives !!!!! and there will be HAPPINESS to you !!!! fellow
    2. olegfbi
      olegfbi 27 February 2016 13: 05
      +2
      By budding, are they breeding there in the Arbat military district?

      But "budding" is characteristic of any bureaucratic apparatus! Military staff officers are no exception, they are people too!
    3. SRC P-15
      SRC P-15 27 February 2016 13: 41
      +1
      Quote: Zoldat_A
      I wouldn’t credit me with Taburetkin’s reduction of the Arbat VO, because he had bad goals.

      And you do not allow the thought that Serdyukov was set this goal: to reduce the overgrown generality as far as possible. And how he should have done it, this is the tenth thing, the main thing is that there should be a result. Who set this goal, I think it’s not worth explaining. A person from the generalist milieu could not have done this - everyone is tied up, so Putin chose a civilian, who, in turn, someone recommended to him, most likely Medvedev or Zubkov. This seems to me to be Putin’s mistake: it was necessary to put his own person, then there would be hope that the reform would have passed with a smaller corruption component. Or maybe Putin didn’t deliberately set his own person, knowing in advance what the result would be, but as we know, he doesn’t give up his people.
      1. Zoldat_A
        Zoldat_A 27 February 2016 13: 56
        +7
        Quote: СРЦ П-15
        And you do not allow the thought that Serdyukov was set this goal: to reduce the overgrown generality as far as possible.

        The fact that Taburetkin, like A. Matrosov in the bunker, threw himself in a chest, not sparing himself, in the fight against the swelling general, like by leaps and bounds - I do not admit!

        And that he was allowed to steal, just to quietly reduce the "general's foam" with someone else's hands - I also do not admit. In the army, any reduction is done at once - an order and that's it. And nothing else is discussed with anyone. He himself went through two reductions, until he left in terms of service. True, God did not deign to vilify the generals' stars - so it is for the best. Although, when we start to cut something "according to the directive", they do not look, "on the belt" of the person or "on the floor". They drive stupidly and that's it. For the execution of someone's "secret plan" hardly anyone would use Taburetkin.

        Most likely, as I wrote above, he quickly linked the issue of reduction with the issue of freeing up areas, transferring them to "non-target assets" and selling them. And here, Vasilyeva is in place, by the way ... As they say, he reported on the "directive", and did not forget himself, his beloved .... Further obscene ...
        1. SRC P-15
          SRC P-15 27 February 2016 14: 30
          +7
          Quote: Zoldat_A
          General stars, however, God did not allow

          This is your trouble! If they were a general, then perhaps they would have served more. smile
          But seriously: you know how we are reducing, even by order: after a while, two people are already sitting in the place of one person (general). Here it was necessary to shake up the entire system, remove the nepotism and mutual responsibility in the generals. If possible, take cash flows from their hands, which were often used for other purposes. The notorious summer cottages did not grow from scratch. Land used for other purposes, the same had to be taken from the high command. Working in manure and staying clean is very difficult. Although I did not defend Serdyukov, he knew what he was going on and what he could expect. hi
          1. Zoldat_A
            Zoldat_A 27 February 2016 15: 31
            +7
            Quote: СРЦ П-15
            If they were a general, then perhaps they would have served more.

            Where else! Two and a half dozen calendars and one and a half times more length of service ... And so he gave everything to his homeland that he could. Although, even if they had offered - would have refused - I did not want to serve in the army of the beginning of the 90's. I do not like it when the commanders betray you - worse than a shot in the back ...
            1. SRC P-15
              SRC P-15 27 February 2016 15: 40
              +3
              Quote: Zoldat_A
              . I do not like it when the commanders betray you - worse than a shot in the back ...

              It was from this that it was necessary to rid our Army in the first place! And according to the state of our Armed forces now, we can conclude: by joint efforts we managed to do what was intended. It has become prestigious to serve in the Army, with the new equipment that began to enter the troops, now the devil himself is not afraid of us! hi
        2. gladcu2
          gladcu2 27 February 2016 21: 36
          0
          Zoldat

          Theft of Serdyukov is an inevitable side effect. But the fulfilled duties he fulfilled. Not good and not bad. Something like that.
    4. SPACE
      SPACE 27 February 2016 13: 42
      +2
      Quote: Zoldat_A
      I wouldn’t credit me with Taburetkin’s reduction of the Arbat VO, because he had bad goals. Not an increase in efficiency, but stupid the calculation that each general sits in some office, and not in the smallest ... Less generals - more space in Arbat VO for sale

      Really stupidly fool
    5. sgazeev
      sgazeev 27 February 2016 21: 30
      0
      Quote: Zoldat_A
      By budding, are they breeding there in the Arbat military district? No matter how much they cut, but more and more of them ...

      I wouldn’t credit me with Taburetkin’s reduction of the Arbat VO, because he had bad goals. Not an increase in efficiency, but a stupid calculation that each general sits in some office, and not in the smallest one ... Less generals - more space in Arbatsky VO for sale, Vasilyeva on tsatska ... That's all Serdyukov's "optimization" of 2007-2008 ...

      Oh sorry Pasha Mercedes left early, he would introduce his son. lol
  4. Blackmokona
    Blackmokona 27 February 2016 13: 02
    +2
    Only the reduction of the apparatus occurred with the reduction of the army, then there would be to know the number of apparatchiks per 1000 troops.
    1. creak
      creak 27 February 2016 13: 10
      +3
      Quote: BlackMokona
      Only the reduction of the apparatus occurred with the reduction of the army


      We shorten the apparatus, lengthen the coil ... drinks
    2. creak
      creak 27 February 2016 13: 10
      0
      Quote: BlackMokona
      Only the reduction of the apparatus occurred with the reduction of the army


      We shorten the apparatus, lengthen the coil ... drinks
  5. Navy7981
    Navy7981 27 February 2016 13: 05
    +6
    The main thing is that our GS is effective.
  6. xam0
    xam0 27 February 2016 13: 06
    0
    In time, they changed the Minister of Defense, Shoigu's normal army began to develop, and with a stool it is generally not known what they were at war with now. They sent good specialists to Syria, turned the tide there in all directions.
  7. Great-grandfather of Zeus
    Great-grandfather of Zeus 27 February 2016 13: 08
    +1
    Now, if they also effectively fought corruption and bureaucracy in the country. ..
    1. yuriy55
      yuriy55 27 February 2016 14: 01
      +1
      Quote: Great-grandfather of Zeus
      Now, if they also effectively fought corruption and bureaucracy in the country. ..

      I remember Chukovsky had something in relation to the situation:
      "We the enemy would
      On the horns
      Only the skin is expensive,
      And horns aren't cheap these days either.


      Who lives fun freely ... here (interesting)
      http://www.rbc.ru/economics/15/10/2014/543cfe56cbb20f8c4e0b98f2

      Here are two pictures with arrows:
      1. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 27 February 2016 14: 59
        +2
        Quote: yuriy55
        Here are two pictures with arrows:

        The counting system is the same as the temperature in the hospital. The higher apparatus receives a lot, clerks, especially in the federal regions - a penny, but on average it turns out fine. smile
    2. gladcu2
      gladcu2 27 February 2016 21: 50
      -1
      Great-grandfather.

      It is believed that corruption will be dealt with.
      GDP has a principle, to fulfill its promises. This is a good principle. Needed. While the libers were given more to manage, the state was to sell. This is the fulfillment of a promise on certain conditions. GDP holds the word. But the agreement will end with the re-election of the government. And to this government, legally prepare an alternative. Old people, as he is not criticized in the Goblin essay, is nevertheless one of those who are for the state, but not only with criticism of the government, but also with proposals. In other words, they form a pro-state, nationally oriented political system. With a clear distinction where the state is integrated into the international system, and where its own, which is not to touch, and all went to ...
  8. demon1978
    demon1978 27 February 2016 13: 09
    0
    Quote: demon1978
    Quote: Zoldat_A
    By budding, are they breeding there in the Arbat military district? No matter how much they cut, but more and more of them ...


    Almost guessed !!!! yes But sooner-CAM yes He crawled through himself-drag ALL the relatives !!!!! (well, or the one whom you consider them) and you will be HAPPINESS !!!! fellow
  9. Gray brother
    Gray brother 27 February 2016 13: 13
    +4
    The Americans have bases around the world, of course, they have more personnel. It is incorrect to compare, as it seems to me.
    But they love bureaucracy - yes, this cannot be taken from them. For each kind of troops they have a separate ministry.
    1. Lt. Air Force stock
      Lt. Air Force stock 27 February 2016 13: 33
      +1
      Quote: Gray Brother
      The Americans have bases around the world, of course, they have more personnel. It is incorrect to compare, as it seems to me.
      But they love bureaucracy - yes, this cannot be taken from them. For each kind of troops they have a separate ministry.

      Not quite so, US commands: European, Asian, African, etc., etc., are not subordinate to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but only directly to the US Secretary of Defense and the US President. Breedlove, who heads the US European command and concurrently commands the combined forces of NATO in Europe, commands all the arms and types of NATO forces in Europe, and he and the Air Force and Ground Forces and the Navy are subordinate.
      1. Gray brother
        Gray brother 27 February 2016 14: 07
        0
        Quote: Lt. air force reserve
        Not quite so, US commands: European, Asian, African, etc., etc., do not report to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but only directly to the Secretary of Defense

        No positions are indicated here, only structures.
        Quote: Lt. air force reserve
        , he and the Air Force and Ground Forces and the Navy are subordinate.

        So they have all the commands in the provinces, arranged. Therefore, they are separately shown.
      2. Sergej1972
        Sergej1972 28 February 2016 00: 28
        0
        These commands are subordinate to the KNSh. To the US Secretary of Defense, no command is directly subordinate.
    2. Horst78
      Horst78 27 February 2016 14: 31
      -1
      I remember the Germans had a general headquarters for each kind of troops. And these general staffs fought without coordinating actions among themselves.
      1. Gray brother
        Gray brother 27 February 2016 14: 56
        +1
        Quote: Horst78
        the Germans had their own general staff for each kind of troops.

        But not the ministries.
        The Americans also have about the same brothel in intelligence, they call it the "US Intelligence Community", quite recently the Serbs-hostages were covered by an air strike.
  10. Great-grandfather of Zeus
    Great-grandfather of Zeus 27 February 2016 13: 15
    0
    “Russia has bypassed the USA” -ag, overtook, cutting off at the turn. ..
  11. vglazunov
    vglazunov 27 February 2016 13: 28
    -1
    The bureaucracy begets bribes, the higher the rank, the heavier the suitcase full of money. There is only one way to solve the problem: 1. Return the confiscation of property. 2. Shooting either humanely and American-style electric chair.
  12. dengy12
    dengy12 27 February 2016 13: 34
    +1
    and meanwhile somewhere in a parallel universe
    . Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin instructed the Minister for Development of the Far East, Alexander Galushka, to explain why the American company McKinsey participated and became the winner in the Russian competition to create a concept for the development of the Northern Sea Route.



    Earlier, a consortium with McKinsey’s participation won the competition held by the Ministry for the Development of the Russian Far East to develop a conceptual framework for a competitive model for the development of the Northern Sea Route.

    On the eve of the commander of the combined forces of NATO in Europe, US General Philip Breedlove said that the United States is studying the possibilities of containing Russia in the Arctic. "Russia's claims do not directly affect the United States, but they affect our three allies," the general said at a congressional hearing. Breedlove did not elaborate on how exactly it is planned to contain Russia, but noted that the United States "has the ability to do this," and Russian actions in the Arctic "cause concern."
  13. Lopatov
    Lopatov 27 February 2016 13: 40
    +2
    Document circulation must be reduced. Especially on paper. Otherwise, all these "cuts in bureaucracy" are just a temporary phenomenon.
    1. SPACE
      SPACE 27 February 2016 13: 52
      -1
      Quote: Spade
      Document flow must be reduced. Especially paper.

      Paper workflow, an integral and important part of any large and complex system, as a means of control, including the population of fools, hat-throws and all other ebills, by chance squeezed into the machine.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 27 February 2016 14: 10
        +2
        This is not a "means of control", it is "a means of justifying the need to contain." An overly bloated bureaucratic apparatus.

        As a battery commander, I used up one and a half to two packs of standard sheets per month. This is not counting what was entered in various kinds of "magazines", "books" and so on. If not for the presence of a clerk, among other things freelance, i.e. I took him away from combat training, I would be engaged exclusively in writing
        As an NS, I already had 3-4 packages. And there were two scribbles. Also freelance.
        Little of. in our division there were 9 aunts in the position of radiotelephone operators. And we saw them only at the field reviews. Because 3 worked at the division headquarters ("assigned"), 4 at the regiment headquarters, one at the rear headquarters, two at the regiment's deputy technical officer, at the RAVist and at the ATshnik.
        And everyone was busy with papers, papers, papers ...
  14. Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 27 February 2016 13: 51
    0
    Any bureaucratic / bureaucratic system strives to increase its number. Sometimes it is advisable, but more often it is not. A scientific approach is required here. In Russia, after the reduction, an increase immediately follows - a periodic endless process.
  15. Cat man null
    Cat man null 27 February 2016 14: 17
    +5
    Quote: Mengsk
    Quote: Mountain Shooter
    At least some benefit from this thief (Serdyukov) was. He was not from the military, and did not support corporate interests. He waved with an ax, only slivers flew.

    - He created his "corporation"

    - yeah, before that, "thinning out" the "old" .. Do you think that no one stole before Serdyukov? Neither the personnel (everything that could be reached and sold / changed? About cooks in canteens - I am silent, this is a separate category laughing )? And in warehouses - they didn’t steal (oh well belay)? Well, and above - there certainly no one stole?

    Quote: Mengsk
    and stole more than anyone before him

    - exactly - more? For what, excuse me, the period we will count (about "how" - I am already silent wink)

    Quote: http://topwar.ru/91505-voennoe-deystvie.html
    ... And igniting the idea of ​​creating a military police, he encroached on the powers of the Prosecutor General and the Investigative Committee. The FSB reacted nervously to this: they considered that the creation of such a powerful intelligence service inside the Ministry of Defense would make it difficult for the military counterintelligence to work in the troops ...

    IMHO, the article shows quite well where the "corruption" cases came from: Serdyukov, "on the way", stepped on the corn of a couple of very serious departments. Incl. and the RF IC, right? And how in the Russian Federation "things are sewn", you can find out .. yes, almost anywhere request

    What is not the version?

    All IMHO, of course. You can already throw hats, banks, piles .. and buns laughing
  16. Damask
    Damask 27 February 2016 14: 23
    +3
    There was time in production in 1999, 765 people worked, two economists, three in vocational schools + a computer and three accountants with 2 computers with a cashier, the rest by objects + workers, now in 2016 everyone has computers there, 6 economists, 8 accountants, 2 departments of vocational schools for 6 people, 160 people for objects. There is a difference. Count it the whole country.
    1. veteran66
      veteran66 27 February 2016 16: 11
      0
      Quote: Damask
      Count it all over the country.

      Well, if production has grown overall, then it's not so bad. All the advanced countries have embarked on the path of intensive labor, and we are all engaged in extensiveness, that’s uncompetitive.
  17. killganoff
    killganoff 27 February 2016 14: 26
    0
    Apparently, soon, they will begin to praise Serdyukov odes on all TV and radio channels! ...
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. digo
    digo 27 February 2016 14: 44
    +5
    Quote: Mountain Shooter
    At least some benefit from this thief (Serdyukov) was. He was not from the military, and did not support corporate interests. He waved with an ax, only slivers flew.

    what It only seems that it was at the time of Serdyukov that a truly global reconstruction of the Russian army began. Those. Specialist put "Baryga" Minister of Defense, so that the West relaxed, and rubbed its hands with joy, seeing how it collapses and breaks, and the remnants of the Soviet Army are plundered ..
    ... And then... belay Opachki !, and where is Crimea ??? Do quilted jackets ??? Opachki !, and why ento the Russian Federation flew from the Caspian ???
    As the saying goes: "Suddenly out of nowhere, appeared in the mouth .. be."
    PS. By the way, what if Serdyukov FSBeshnik is undercover? hi
  20. ARES623
    ARES623 27 February 2016 16: 10
    +2
    The explosive increase in bureaucracy occurred during the introduction of computer technology in the office system. Reports became an order of magnitude more, correspondence - two orders of magnitude. When we commanded a company, we had one typewriter obtained illegally, and everything else - manually. A pair of clerks barely coped with the volumes. And taking into account that the MCP of the times 85-90 of the last century spoke all the languages ​​of the peoples of the USSR, except Russian, the writing by the clerk was not an idle question. But they did it.
    Of course, it is possible that they won something in the Armed Forces, in the national economy the bureaucracy is multiplying like mold - actively, without stopping. The capital of our subject is about 70 inhabitants. When a new management structure is created in our "government", the clerks are gathered in it directly from the street, the main thing is that without housing problems. Those more solutions and requests are coming. The fact that our army is better than the amer's in this respect is not an indicator of how good it is with us, it says that they are generally creepy. But, with their budget, their bureaucracy is tolerant, but about the reforms from "Buratino", we need to talk with those who really serve today - how our army is flown, repaired, fed, supplied during the period of combat training. Not everything is so rosy.
  21. Aleksandr1959
    Aleksandr1959 27 February 2016 16: 18
    0
    Optimization ... and other "AI", it is likely that it is good ... but, given how and by whom they are usually carried out, there is a real danger of "throwing out the baby with water". ...
    One "optimization" of military education of what cost our Armed Forces. The example of the Zhugarin Academy will go around for a long time.
  22. vlad-53
    vlad-53 27 February 2016 16: 26
    +1
    It is necessary to reduce, but it is necessary to understand who to reduce. And then, as it turns out, they reduce the technicals. And the high ranks, which have nothing special to do in the service, remain.
  23. A.Lex
    A.Lex 27 February 2016 16: 52
    +1
    As one movie hero said:
    - Remember, gentlemen! Corruption will destroy this country! (with)
    And this is not about Russia ...
  24. surok12
    surok12 27 February 2016 17: 48
    0
    After reading the comments, I recalled a joke:
    The forest, all who caught the hare being fucked, the council of the forest got together and decided not to fuck, and if an incident occurred, then consider it after a written statement from the hare. After some time they ask the hare how the changes are. He answers - e..t as well, only scribble has increased. There are no options.
  25. atamankko
    atamankko 27 February 2016 18: 01
    0
    The headquarters are swollen, scribbled darkness, you can’t make out who anyone, all in poses
    cancer - reduction had to be taken for a long time, but thoughtfully.
  26. Sergey-8848
    Sergey-8848 27 February 2016 18: 01
    0
    In fact, the idea of ​​creating the General Staff as a governing body, rather than clicking on spurs, is attributed to the Prussians (Bismarck, of course). That's who you need to ask about the need and need of different main directions, departments, departments, etc.
  27. Goha
    Goha 27 February 2016 19: 20
    0
    Quote: olegfbi
    Good, then of course, good!
    But is there a balance between necessary and sufficient? We do not know this, since the staff of the General Staff is State Secret! It remains only to hope that it is observed, given \ remembering Serdyukov's "purges"!

    Everything is in the internet. With a list of department heads. What state. a secret? And from whom? From simple hard workers.
  28. Jarilo
    Jarilo 27 February 2016 20: 06
    +2
    [quote = Zoldat_A]By budding, are they breeding there in the Arbat military district? No matter how much they cut, but more and more of them ...


    The administrative system is initially created to serve those involved in production. After some time, the administrative system budgets and begins to reproduce itself independently of those who are engaged in production. Those. service staff, suddenly, after some time, turns into owners and begins to grow regardless of the real needs of production. The correct system is when production formulates needs, and the administration is formed for these tasks. If production can do without administration, then it is really not needed, or not needed in the form in which it currently exists. This will be a real living system that adapts to current tasks and needs, rather than sitting out pants.
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 27 February 2016 20: 22
      0
      Quote: Jarilo
      This will be a real living system that adapts to current tasks and needs, rather than sitting out pants

      Your system will not work

      Quote: Jarilo
      The administrative system is initially created to serve those involved in the production

      Yeah, exactly .. but the service includes, for example:
      - protection of the facility (barn, factory .. country wink)
      - finding a sales market (for a cowshed, a factory) .. with a country, it's a little more difficult there, but the "theme" is the same ..
      - finding and acquiring resources (buildings and structures, machines, silos, "Mistrals", for example laughing)
      - and many many others

      Quote: Jarilo
      The correct system is when production formulates needs, and the administration is formed for these tasks

      - And who is your "production"? Milkmaid, cut, design engineer? Or is it .. some kind of administration? belay

      Quote: Jarilo
      If production can do without administration

      - can not. Makhnovshchina it will be, not "production" request

      In general, I repeat: what you described will not work. A-priory. hi
      1. Jarilo
        Jarilo 28 February 2016 01: 16
        0
        Let's imagine that administration is a canteen in an enterprise. The dining room is free, fed by those who work in this enterprise. At the same time, the administration decides how much you have, and the administration has the task of saving money, i.e. food, because the owner of the company wants to minimize costs and increase revenues. Is everything normal with logic? Is everything right? Yes, everything is logical and correct within the framework of this system. Those. it is necessary to change the system itself, otherwise we will all be sitting on a starvation diet, because in this system it does not work differently.
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null 28 February 2016 02: 31
          +1
          Quote: Jarilo
          Let's imagine that administration is a canteen in an enterprise. The dining room is free, fed by those who work in this enterprise. At the same time, the administration decides how much you have, and the administration has the task of saving money, i.e. food, because the owner of the company wants to minimize costs and increase revenues. Is everything normal with logic? Is everything right?

          - nah..

          Understand already (I wrote about this there above .. schematically): the inalienable tasks of the administration of the enterprise, in addition to "feeding", are:
          - to decide how much, what and in what time frame, and at what price this enterprise should produce. And to do so that the enterprise produces it. "In the given parameters". So, no?
          - decide how much and how much raw materials, consumables, where, at what price, and at what time it is necessary to purchase, so that the enterprise .. yes stupidly did not get up, due to the lack of some small bolt, for example. And get it all. So no?
          - monitor the state of fixed assets (buildings, constructions, equipment -...) of the enterprise, so that the enterprise .. well, at least not get up. And better, of course - it developed, blossomed and smelled. So no?
          - pay-minimize taxes ..
          - protect yourself, beloved .. I'm talking about the enterprise, not about the administration wink
          - and many many others.

          Thus, it turns out that the administration is the governing body of the enterprise. Head, like .. sadly request

          And not at all a "dining room" (stomach .. or there is a mouth, say), as you described there.

          Quote: Jarilo
          Those. it is necessary to change the system itself, otherwise we will all be sitting on a starvation diet, because in this system it doesn’t work differently

          Suggest your way how to change. True, very interesting hi
          1. Jarilo
            Jarilo 28 February 2016 10: 14
            0
            With everyone, "So, no?" I agree, but these are the same workers.
            Free dining / administration is much more expensive. It is necessary that the money be managed by those who earn them their labor and pay to those who help them in this work. Now the system works in such a way that money is accumulated, depersonalized and plundered as belonging to no one in the form of ineffective projects with contractors from their own and kickbacks. In this system, how much do not earn will not be worthwhile.
  29. tchoni
    tchoni 27 February 2016 20: 31
    +1
    There was garbage left - to defeat the civilian bureaucratic apparatus, which, as you know, has almost doubled since the time of stagnation, with a similar reduction in the number of its population.
  30. Vlad5307
    Vlad5307 27 February 2016 22: 03
    0
    Quote: sub307
    And in general - if "state secret", how do they know the true scale of the reorganization and its effectiveness?

    From where the State Department received the "famous" report of Khrushchev on the "cult of Stalin", when it had not yet been read even at the Congress of the CPSU! laughing
  31. pine tree
    pine tree 28 February 2016 01: 39
    0
    just for our specialists, theory is equal to practice. and there haven’t fought so much, not when
  32. faterdom
    faterdom 29 February 2016 00: 09
    +1
    Praise from partners to Serdyukov (albeit clumsy, so clumsy) from a series of praises to Kudrin, or Nabiullina from them.
    It should be treated accordingly.
    I remember in the 80s the commander of the unit liked to conduct anonymous questioning of soldiers in relation to his officers.
    And then, those who most of all received epithets like "beast", "fascist", "bastard" strongly acquired in his eyes in comparison with those who are "good", "normal" and so on. Because even the approximate fulfillment of the duties of a platoon or company commander did not in any way imply the second category of answers and epithets, but it smelled strongly of the first.