Military Review

Foreign press: PAK FA is not the fifth generation fighter

190
The development of new weapons and military equipment has always attracted the attention of specialists, the general public and the press. Such attention is manifested in the form of a mass of publications, disputes, etc. Quite often debaters and analysts come to very interesting conclusions. From time to time, relying on some arguments, the authors of such materials are trying to debunk certain "myths" that allegedly occur in some projects. A few days ago there appeared another article of this kind.


The 18 February edition of IHS Jane's Defense Weekly published Royben F. Johnson’s article “Singapore Airshow 2016: Analysis — PAK-FA’s Asian Export Hopes Style” (“Singapore Airshow 2016: Analysis — Asian Export Hopes of the PAC Project FAs are faced with a lack of fifth-generation qualities. ”) The title clearly shows that the author of the article and his sources doubt the prospects of the Russian project PAK FA / T-50 and believe that it does not fully meet the requirements for the fifth generation of fighters.

IHS Jane's author recalls that at the recent air show in Singapore, the United States introduced its fifth-generation fighter Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor. In addition, there were statements about plans to sell a significant number of the latest F-35 Lightning II fighter jets to countries in the Asian region. Currently, a number of Asian countries are particularly interested in fifth-generation fighter aircraft, which can be satisfied with the help of supplies of American-made equipment.



Representative of american aviation industry told IHS Jane's that several countries are currently developing their own fifth-generation fighter projects. Nevertheless, according to him, not all such developments can be attributed to a new generation of aircraft.

Thus, a representative of the company Lockheed Martin recalled the Russian project of the aircraft PAK FA, which is positioned by the developer as a fifth-generation fighter. However, in the opinion of the American specialist, the PAK FA belongs to the fifth generation only in words. He believes that the fifth generation is not only a specific form that provides stealth.

According to the plans of the Russian industry, the new aircraft PAK FA / T-50 in the future will be delivered to Asian countries that already have experience in operating Su-based technology. Indonesia, Malaysia and Vietnam are considered potential buyers of such fighters. China, in turn, falls out of this list, as it develops its own projects of similar equipment.

The unnamed Russian specialists referred to by RF F. Johnson believes that exporting T-50 aircraft may face some problems. The main reason for this is the onboard equipment and aircraft components. Despite a significant increase in cost, they lack the technologies of the fifth generation. In the context of such problems, the new PAK FA aircraft can be compared to the existing Su-35 fighter, which has already become the subject of export contracts.

The main onboard systems of the fighter T-50 RF Johnson calls the radar "Irbis" and the engine type "117С." Both of these products are offered for installation on the PAK FA, and are also used on the Su-35 aircraft. In addition, according to IHS Jane's, some other units of the two fighters are also unified. Referring again to unnamed specialists, the author assumes that the new equipment, which will be installed only on T-50, will only be a further development of the existing Su-35 systems.

As you can see, unnamed experts and the author of the publication IHS Jane's Defense Weekly doubt the prospects of the newest Russian fighter, referring to the features of its on-board equipment. It is noteworthy that similar publications in recent days have appeared not only in “Jaynes”. Consider another similar article from another publication.

February 24, the American edition of Business Insider, published an article by Jeremy Bender entitled “Russia's new fighter jet is the 5th-generation 'in name only'” (“The newest Russian fighter belongs to the fifth generation only in words”). As can be seen from the title, the author of this material also tried to study the Russian project PAK FA / T-50, and the results of this study were not entirely pleasant conclusions for the Russian industry. J. Bender believes that the newest Russian aircraft does not meet the requirements of the fifth generation fighter.

His article, the author of Business Insider begins with a reminder of current projects. Currently, the United States continues to develop its second fighter of the fifth generation Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II. At the same time, the Russian industry is engaged in its own project of similar technology. Bender argues that the Russian project PAK FA ("Advanced Aviation Complex of Frontal Aviation"), also known as T-50, has some features that do not allow it to be rightfully attributed to the fifth generation of fighters.

Further J. Bender refers to IHS Jane's article and cites the main facts from this material. Thus, it is argued that the Russian industry unreasonably classifies the PAK FA project to fifth-generation fighter aircraft, which is due to the lack of appropriate technologies and components. In particular, the author of Business Insider mentions the argument regarding the engines: the T-50 has the same powerplant as the Su-35 generation "4 ++". Also mentioned is the unification of some other systems.

According to the author of Business Insider, even the differences in the onboard equipment of the new aircraft do not allow it to be rightfully attributed to the fifth generation of fighters. At this time, J. Bender builds his judgments on the basis of last year's publications of analysts of the portal RealClearDefense, who at one time got access to some documents of the Ministry of Defense of India. This country is showing interest in the Russian project and is considering the possibility of jointly developing a fighter based on it.

According to RealClearDefense, the PAK-FA / T-50 project has several technical and technological problems associated with certain elements and components. Among other things, problems include insufficient engine performance, low reliability of the existing radar station, as well as insufficiently low stealth indicators.

The question of stealth characteristics, according to Bender, is worthy of a separate consideration. Previously, analysts from RealClearDefense wrote that in 2010-11, estimates of such indicators of the latest Russian aircraft were carried out. Then the calculations showed that the effective dispersion area (EPR) of the T-50 aircraft is at the level of 0,3-0,5 sq. M.

At the same time, representatives of the US Air Force hinted that the EPR of the F-22 fighter is approximately equal to 0,0001 sq.m. The newer F-35 Lightning II fighter differs from the F-22 in lower stealth, since its ESR is at 0,001 m. In both cases, the effective area of ​​dispersion of American fifth-generation fighter jets is much smaller than that of the newest Russian aircraft.

J. Bender ends his article with a reminder of the current plans of the Russian Air Force. At the moment, it is planned to order 12 T-50 aircraft. It is mentioned that previously it was planned to buy about 52 aircraft, however, due to technical and economic problems, it was decided to reduce plans.

***

It should be noted that IHS Jane's Defense Weekly and Business Insider were not the only publications that published "sensational" news about the inconsistency of the T-50 aircraft to the requirements of the fifth generation of fighters. Such messages soon spread across other foreign media, and also got into the domestic press.

The latest foreign publications contain quite serious “accusations” that are hardly worth ignoring. Published information and assumptions require further consideration and analysis. In this case, as often happens, with a more detailed examination, the sensation turns into something strange and, at least, ambiguous.

First of all, it is necessary to pay attention to the attempts of the foreign press to study the characteristics of promising technology. So, comparing the EPR of the F-22, F-35 and T-50 fighters looks extremely strange and can hardly claim to be a serious research. The exact values ​​of these characteristics have not yet been announced and are unlikely to become public in the foreseeable future. The lack of accurate data on this score forces professionals and technology lovers to resort to various assessments, which, for obvious reasons, may not be true.

This is not the case with stealth indicators, but also with other characteristics. If part of the main indicators of foreign technology has already been published, the exact characteristics of the Russian PAK FA still remain a secret. Thus, comparing domestic and foreign equipment, it is necessary to rely on unofficial estimates, assumptions, etc. false information. It is hardly worth waiting for such comparisons to be true and prove to be objective.

Interesting statements RF Johnson and J. Bender regarding the onboard equipment of the T-50 and Su-35 aircraft. On these two aircraft, some unified units and units are used, which, according to foreign authors, adversely affects the characteristics of the newer PAK FA, and also does not allow it to be considered a fifth-generation fighter. In this case, foreign experts and journalists noted one of the features of the new projects, but at the same time they ignored the concepts of the 5 and 4 ++ generations.

Thus, a characteristic feature of the Su-35 fighter, attributed to the 4 ++ generation, is the use of the most modern onboard equipment, engines and other systems that meet the requirements of the fifth generation. At the same time, however, due to the use of other components, first of all the “old” glider, the Su-35 cannot be fully the fifth generation fighter. It was decided to single out a similar technique with characteristics higher than the fourth generation and part of the equipment of the fifth generation into the conditional generation “4 ++”.

Thus, the unification of components and assemblies, primarily engines and radar, is not a minus for the T-50, but a plus for the Su-35. Thanks to this approach, a plane with an “old” glider can compete with a completely new model in terms of a number of characteristics, and the use of used components and components reduces the cost of equipment. The interpretation proposed by the foreign press of such an approach to the creation of aviation technology looks doubtful.

Yet the most interesting feature of the current situation is revealed at the beginning of the article from IHS Jane's Defense Weekly. Roiben F. Johnson writes that the American aviation industry is currently making plans to sell F-35 aircraft to Asian countries. At the same time, Asian countries are considered as buyers by Russian enterprises. Thus, Asia has already become a “battlefield” between manufacturers of weapons and equipment, and in the foreseeable future there will have to be a new “battle” for contracts for the supply of fifth-generation fighters.

If this is taken into account, it ceases to amaze the fact that the shortcomings of the project PAK FA / T-50 RF. Johnson was told by a representative of the American company Lockheed Martin, which developed both modern projects of fifth-generation US fighters. Thus, the statements of this representative are very similar to a not too successful attempt in advance, even before the start of competition, to spoil the image of a potential opponent. The press, in turn, gladly picked up the statements and made a “sensation” of them.

The result is that the shaft of publications about the incompliance of the T-50 aircraft with the requirements for the fifth generation of fighter aircraft goes back to the desire of one of the foreign companies to prepare in advance for the competition and change the opinion of the responsible persons in their favor, even using dubious methods. As they say, nothing personal - only business.

It is noteworthy that the PAK FA / T-50 project is still at the stage of preparing aircraft for deliveries to the Russian armed forces, and the development of an export modification, apparently, has not even begun yet. However, potential competitors did not wait and began to attempt to fight with an opponent in advance. One can imagine what the representatives of the foreign industry will say when the start of full-fledged work on the export modification of the T-50 or the negotiations on the supply of such equipment to foreign countries will be announced.


The article "Singapore Airshow 2016: Analysis - PAK-FA's Asian export hopes stymied by lack of 'fifth-generation' qualities":
http://janes.com/article/58166/singapore-airshow-2016-analysis-pak-fa-s-asian-export-hopes-stymied-by-lack-of-fifth-generation-qualities

The article "Russia's newest fighter jet is 5th generation 'in name only'":
http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-newest-fighter-jet-is-fifth-generation-in-name-only-2016-2
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  1. Vladimirets
    Vladimirets 29 February 2016 07: 16
    53
    "A representative of the American company Lockheed Martin, which developed both modern projects of the fifth generation of the USA fighters, told RF Johnson about the shortcomings of the PAK FA / T-50 project."

    Well, if such an "authority" told, then of course. laughing
    1. ImPerts
      ImPerts 29 February 2016 07: 31
      17
      Well, how can you not dip your competitors in der ... mo? Nothing personal just business!
      1. DanSabaka
        DanSabaka 29 February 2016 07: 58
        59
        But what difference does it make to which generation "experts" refer our T-50?
        Yes, even if they compare with I-16, by the coincidence of the number of pilots and bearing planes wink .....
        What matters is not a shortcut, but real combat capabilities ....
        1. subbtin.725
          subbtin.725 29 February 2016 09: 46
          19
          Quote: DanSabaka
          But what difference does it make to which generation "experts" refer our T-50?

          True, everything is learned in practice. In Syria, Russia showed a little how to fight, and some who somehow immediately became depressed.
          1. Tibidokh
            Tibidokh 29 February 2016 14: 13
            33
            Quote: subbtin.725
            some who somehow immediately became moody.

            Now I will sign almost as a real expert that the F-22 is not a 5th generation aircraft. To do this, try to find fault with the AFAR of this AN / APG-77 (V) 1 aircraft.
            1. So, open the website designation systems and the official sites Northrop Grumman and Raytheon;
            2. We look at the history of the creation of AN / APG-77 (V) 1;
            3. AN / APG-77 (V) 1 - such an upgraded version of AN / APG-77 was created on the basis of technical solutions used to create AFAR AN / APG-80 (which is for F-16E / F). Thus, the latest F-22 radar uses 4th generation technology. A SHAME!

            One could calm down on this, but no. They provoked me very much. angry

            4. AFAR AN / APG-80 (using the technologies of which AN / APG-77 (V) 1 was created for the F-22), created using technologies ... PULSED DOPLER AN / APG-68! Hurray, the enemy is defeated! fellow
            5. We will finish so that I do not suffer ... wink AN / APG-68 is based on the decrepit AN / APG-66. Fuuuu-22!
            6. Thus, the radar AN / APG-77 (V) 1 for F-22 originates with the slot AN / APG-68. But how does he even fly with such a radar ?! belay

            All this is of course a joke. Radar AN / APG-77 (V) 1 and AFAR AN / APG-80 give an idea of ​​the level of development of American science. And I am proud that our scientists can compete with the Americans on equal terms, with less funding.
            But imagine two options for publishing a similar "exhaust" in relation to the radar: Western and domestic.
            We will write - the West is indignant and declares that we are raving.
            The West writes - we are indignant and declare that they are raving ... and in general they have same-sex marriages there. wassat
            There, the Chinese generally stated that our T-14 is significantly inferior to the Ex VT-4.
            This dishonest game of Americans and Kytays in common people is called advertising.
            1. Evrepid
              Evrepid 2 March 2016 10: 26
              +2
              It’s necessary not to write about it here, but in the article of Jane’s magazine, it will be more effective
              1. Tibidokh
                Tibidokh 2 March 2016 17: 58
                +4
                Quote: Evrepid
                It’s necessary not to write about it here, but in the article of Jane magazine

                No way, Comrade Captain! soldier
                I am ashamed to write in such "democratic" magazines. I have already tried to write about the shortcomings of the VT-4 at the Chinese forum. It was based on the VT-4 modernization plan. I proceeded from the fact that since they were going to release an improved version, then there is still something to improve in it. So he is not the best. I sat for a long time with a dictionary, sculpted a comment with a serious and not biased approach ... The comment did not pass moderation ...
                I think things are even worse in Merica. It is only in words there is freedom of speech.
              2. Vlad.by
                Vlad.by 22 November 2016 00: 35
                0
                Right now they will immediately print a refutation. Ha ha 3 times
        2. AK64
          AK64 29 February 2016 11: 41
          +1
          But what difference does it make to which generation "experts" refer our T-50?


          This is anti-advertising: T-50s will be sold, well, they’re trying to scare potential buyers in advance
          1. Andrey Skokovsky
            Andrey Skokovsky 29 February 2016 15: 02
            +5
            it is easier to be with such applications from foreign "partners"
            if anyone has doubts, then welcome to the official training battle
            the result of which will decide who is 5, who is 6, and who is an imposter ....
            1. aiden
              aiden 29 February 2016 20: 41
              +1
              with us and 4+ will make them 5
          2. aleksey980
            aleksey980 29 February 2016 20: 34
            +1
            Quote: AK64
            This is anti-advertising: T-50s will be sold, well, they’re trying to scare potential buyers in advance

            The best advertisement will be if, before the end of the Syrian campaign, they can prepare at least a couple of planes for full combat operation and show them in action, even on existing engines.
        3. Maxom75
          Maxom75 29 February 2016 19: 26
          +2
          I wonder why they don’t throw stones at China. Maybe because the Chinese general remarked that F-22 could destroy 6 Chinese planes, then we will send 10 to intercept one of the remaining ones will still bring down F-22 /))
          1. Ka-52
            Ka-52 2 March 2016 17: 03
            0
            Rather, they feel the breath of a competitor, and the Chinese plane is not considered a competitor. hi
      2. Dam
        Dam 29 February 2016 11: 14
        +9
        Of course, he flies, and real fighters of the 5th generation proudly stand and scare everyone with the word STELLZ. Yes, and the dough are unmeasured! No, this is finally not a fighter, well, 5th generation cannot cost so much. How now to persuade NATO allies to tumble money into the flightless F 35
      3. Aleksandr72
        Aleksandr72 29 February 2016 13: 50
        12
        Well Duc, this was to be expected. Especially against the background of the fact that the promoted F-35, as they say, did not go. Yes, it is known that this "fighter" was produced in the amount of one and a half hundred copies, which against the background of the PAK-FA / T-50 can be considered a large series (at least until the T-50 went into mass production). But, the development company Lockheed Martin was counting on completely different (by an order of magnitude) volumes of orders for its F-35 Lightning II. In the meantime, I just had problems with this plane. And then there is the development of a competitor PAK-FA is approaching the final stage. There is something to sound the alarm from. Well, try to crush a competitor while he is still in the cradle. And in this business - black PR, all means are good. Especially if the media - their own, the American ones - will print anything, publish it, show it on TV, etc.
        I'd like to see serial PAK-FA in combat units.
        I have the honor.
        1. 73bor
          73bor 29 February 2016 21: 25
          0
          About the released F-35s, it is safe to say (not a secret) that the aircraft is not combat ready, there is no whole range of weapons, problems with operation, and the cost doesn’t want to decrease!
      4. Nick
        Nick 29 February 2016 15: 30
        +2
        Quote: ImPerts
        Well, how can you not dip your competitors in der ... mo? Nothing personal just business!

        Underestimating a competitor’s capabilities leads to incorrect actions. It’s good for us
      5. NEXUS
        NEXUS 29 February 2016 17: 38
        +9
        Quote: ImPerts
        Well, how can you not dip your competitors in der ... mo? Nothing personal just business!

        Here, in addition to competition, there is another point.
        The requirements for new-generation fighters are different for everyone. In fact, even the SU-35 can be classified as a 5th generation fighter (if stealth is not at the forefront). In all other respects, the 35th surpasses both the "raptor" and "Lighting".
        With regards to the F-35, so what kind of fighter is it of the 5th generation, if the speed parameters are not maintained? And in terms of functionality, there are a lot of questions. And as for the EPR of mattress fighters, the numbers voiced by the Americans are just their words.
        The same story is happening with PAK FA as with Armata ... they will also vote that it is cardboard. But I just want to look at those pilots on the same Raptor who would like to stand up against the T-50.
        Not long to wait for the premiere of the serial PAK FA. It will be very interesting to listen to these experts Lockheed and Boeing.
        1. KKND
          KKND 29 February 2016 17: 48
          -9
          Quote: NEXUS
          Not long to wait for the premiere of the serial PAK FA

          I remember you in 2015 promised that the T-50 will go into production in 2016. And where?
          Quote: NEXUS
          In fact, even the SU-35 can be attributed to the 5th generation fighter (if you do not put stealth in the forefront)

          Why bother with AFAR and stealth? Let's rivet the MiG-31 and everything will be in "chocolate"
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 29 February 2016 17: 59
            +7
            Quote: KKND
            I remember you in 2015 promised that the T-50 will go into production in 2016. And where?

            We’ll wait and see ... The 16th year has just begun. As regards promises, these are not promises, but statements by officials, which I voiced (and not only me).
            Quote: KKND
            Why bother with AFAR and stealth? Let's rivet the MiG-31 and everything will be in "chocolate"

            The statement was made by a man who poorly understands why the 31st was created, and under which these long-range interceptors are imprisoned, and they were created to combat the Kyrgyz Republic and high-altitude reconnaissance and bombers, and not for battles with enemy fighters.
            1. KKND
              KKND 29 February 2016 18: 06
              -7
              Quote: NEXUS
              The statement was made by a man who poorly understands why the 31st was created, and under which these long-range interceptors are imprisoned, and they were created to combat the Kyrgyz Republic and high-altitude reconnaissance and bombers, and not for battles with enemy fighters.

              This is sarcasm, if anything, caused by your
              Quote: NEXUS
              With regards to the F-35, so what kind of fighter is it of the 5th generation, if the speed parameters are not maintained?

              И
              Quote: NEXUS
              . In all other respects, the 35th surpasses both "lizard" and "Lighting".

              Do not give out wishful thinking.
              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS 29 February 2016 18: 14
                +6
                Quote: KKND
                Do not give out wishful thinking.

                Name in what "lizard" and "Lighting" are superior to SU-35S. EPR is not taken into account because it is from the words of mattresses and none of our experts, or at least European ones, did not measure the stealth of these fighters.
                And I would like to compare not only the aircraft themselves, but also the arsenal.
                By the way, lightning is generally not correct to compare with either the 35th or the T-50, since the latter are heavy fighters to gain air supremacy, and the F-35 is a light fighter-bomber, with which it has duties, in any modification does not do very well.
                1. KKND
                  KKND 29 February 2016 18: 37
                  -4
                  NOT expert in the EPR theory of the dinosaur, it will be the first to see the SU-35C and the first to launch the AIM-120C AMRAAM.
                  Of course, our pilot will record the exposure and begin to interfere and maneuver, but the question is whether he can get away from the missiles.
                  In the BVB, our SU-35S will most likely do the Raptor with the whole question of whether it will live to see the BVB.
                  All I wrote is spheroconin. Specifically, the raptor has only 2 advantages over the 35C EPR and Radar and a lot of disadvantages, but these advantages are key.
                  1. NEXUS
                    NEXUS 29 February 2016 18: 54
                    +7
                    Quote: KKND
                    All I wrote is spheroconin. Specifically, the raptor has only 2 advantages over the 35C EPR and Radar and a lot of disadvantages, but these advantages are key.

                    I repeat, the characteristics of the EPR in the lizard are given out by the Americans, which means that the grandmother at the entrance could have said the same truthfulness would be the same. On the radar, it’s debatable ... I’ll explain why .. The raptor, flying, is not always in the best position to irradiate the enemy’s radar and not the fact that our 35th lizard will see earlier.

                    Quote: KKND
                    AIM-120C AMRAAM.

                    The maximum launch range of this missile is 105 km ... let's say our R-37 has a maximum range of 300 km, and the KS-172-400 km.
                    And now, on the radar of the SU-35S ... the target detection range with an RCS of 0,01m is 90 km (I am convinced that this figure is greatly underestimated) ... that is, the lizard will be able to launch its AIM-120C AMRAAM, entering the detection zone by the radar SU-35. And one more thing, what is 100 km on a collision course for supersonic fighters? In my opinion, this is a "dog dump." And now we read your thesis:
                    In the BVB, our SU-35S is likely to be hit by a "Raptor"
                    1. KKND
                      KKND 29 February 2016 19: 17
                      -5
                      Quote: NEXUS
                      The maximum launch range of this missile is 105 km ... let's say our R-37 has a maximum range of 300 km, and the KS-172-400 km.

                      Do not be such a naive philistine, the ranges for any Air-to-Air missiles are taken from the ceiling. I explain. The rocket on the pylon already has kinetic (aircraft speed relative to the Earth's surface) and potential (aircraft height relative to the Earth's surface) energy.
                      The target of this rocket also has the same energy. A rocket has fuel whose energy it converts into kinetic and, if necessary, into potential energy. The target and the missile can perform a variety of maneuvers and to determine unambiguously the range of the missile’s flight, it does not seem possible to depend too much, for example, on altitude, speed, velocity vector, maneuvers, etc., both the target and the carrier and the missile
                      1. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 29 February 2016 19: 31
                        +6
                        Quote: KKND
                        Do not be such a naive philistine, the ranges for any Air-to-Air missiles are taken from the ceiling. I explain. The rocket on the pylon already has kinetic (aircraft speed relative to the Earth's surface) and potential (aircraft height relative to the Earth's surface) energy.
                        The target of this rocket also has the same energy. A rocket has fuel whose energy it converts into kinetic and, if necessary, into potential energy. The target and the missile can perform a variety of maneuvers and to determine unambiguously the range of the missile’s flight, it does not seem possible to depend too much, for example, on altitude, speed, velocity vector, maneuvers, etc., both the target and the carrier and the missile

                        Dear, all of the above you apply to the American missile. What mattresses are long-range missiles, we have a medium-range missile R-27 (130 km), R-33 (228 km), R-77 (175 km), R- 40 (up to 80 km) ... By the way, does the target have better maneuverability than a missile? And what if there are two missiles launched?
                        In all of the above, you did not take into account one moment - as soon as the target was captured, then there is a conversation between the rocket and the target, and there will be someone more lucky.
                      2. KKND
                        KKND 29 February 2016 19: 46
                        -4
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Dear, all of the above you apply to the American missile. What mattresses are long-range missiles, we have a medium-range missile R-27 (130 km), R-33 (228 km), R-77 (175 km), R- 40 (up to 80 km) ... By the way, does the target have better maneuverability than a missile? And what if there are two missiles launched?

                        Naturally, all this is true for any explosive missiles, and the Americans do not have such heavy and high-energy missiles as ours. The whole question is whether they are effective against highly maneuverable goals. It seems that they are designed to destroy heavy bombers and high-altitude drones. You yourself wrote
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        The statement was made by a man who poorly understands why the 31st was created, and under which these long-range interceptors are imprisoned, and they were created to combat the Kyrgyz Republic and high-altitude reconnaissance and bombers, and not for battles with enemy fighters.

                        Quote: NEXUS
                        In all of the above, you did not take into account one moment - as soon as the target was captured, then there is a conversation between the rocket and the target, and there will be someone more lucky.

                        After capture there is a radio correction on modern missiles of medium and long-range air combat.
                      3. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 29 February 2016 19: 54
                        +7
                        Quote: KKND
                        The whole question is whether they are effective against highly maneuverable goals.

                        The thing is that the lizard did not live up to expectations as a fighter of a new generation, due not only to cost, but also to many defects and diseases from which it has not yet been cured. In the 11th year, production was closed and the assembly lines of these were dismantled. " miracle fighters. "
                        Where is the Raptor used now? Has he ever dealt with enemy fighters? You sit and talk about his high maneuverability and the EPR radar, but in fact, all this was injected into your head mattresses with your eternal love for advertising.
                        Of course, there are achievements on 5th generation fighters that were driven in by a lizard, but the Raptor is not just a working combat fighter complex, but rather a laboratory for studying and improving systems and components for truly new generation combat vehicles.
                      4. KKND
                        KKND 29 February 2016 20: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        The Raptor is not so much an operational combat fighter complex, but rather a laboratory for the study and improvement of systems and components for truly new generation combat vehicles.

                        Such a laboratory that they built as many as 187 serial ones, what do you think, by what year will PAK FA build as many?
                      5. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 29 February 2016 20: 51
                        +5
                        Quote: KKND
                        Such a laboratory that they built as many as 187 serial ones, what do you think, by what year will PAK FA build as many?

                        And where have all these 187 pieces been used since the 90s? And the mattresses have not been one company since then.
                        By the way, regarding the EPR of the dinosaur ... tell me, do the Raptors have no pylons for the external suspension of missiles, or will they only load missiles in the internal compartments in real combat conditions? Or do rockets have no EPR at all?
                        And now back to the characteristics of the SU-35S radar ...
                        with ESR 3 m²:
                        detection at heading courses: 350-400 km (in the area of ​​100 sq. degrees, against the sky)
                        And immediately look at the range of the same P-37 or P-33 wink
                        Here is an excerpt from the wiki about the use of the Raptor:
                        By February 2015, F-22s had completed at least 112 combat missions in the sky of Syria

                        That is, they bombed something, but with what result it is modestly silent ... laughing
                        One 11-hour flight is described, in which the F-22 clearly demonstrated its versatility, completing the attack mission, reconnaissance of the enemy’s ground forces, aiming other planes at the target and escorting bombers

                        350 million Scout! laughing .
                      6. KKND
                        KKND 29 February 2016 21: 14
                        +1
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        And where have all these 187 pieces been used since the 90s?

                        He entered service in the combat unit in 2005. And this is primarily a fighter for gaining superiority in the air. He has very limited ability to work on the ground.
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        By the way, regarding the EPR of the dinosaur ... tell me, do the Raptors have no pylons for the external suspension of rockets, or in real combat conditions will they only load rockets in the internal compartments?

                        With natives it is possible and on an external sling. With a serious opponent, a score of 0-1 in favor of the rash is also a result.
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Now back to the characteristics of the SU-35S radar

                        Stop reading Vika. am
                        if you consider it to be true in the last resort as you explain https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-300
                        In particular, a range of 300 km is written there for target detection locators.
                        And for you with an EPR of 3 m²: detection at oncoming courses: 350-400 km (in the zone of 100 sq. Degrees, against the sky)
                        With a much smaller antenna and radiation power of the SU-35S radar.
                        If this is true, then due to what it is achieved and why then AFAR?
                        And which of us believes in fairy tales more?
                      7. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 29 February 2016 21: 26
                        +4
                        Quote: KKND
                        Stop reading Vika.

                        And I give you figures from "open" sources laughing
                        For me, a wiki is not a source, it is not a source, but a murzil magazine ... wassat
                      8. KKND
                        KKND 29 February 2016 21: 36
                        -3
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        laughing wassat

                        You can essentially answer, or just water?
                        And now, in general, we switched to emoticons
                      9. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 29 February 2016 22: 02
                        +3
                        Quote: KKND
                        You can essentially answer, or just water?
                        And now, in general, we switched to emoticons

                        I basically answered you above. Read carefully, dear.
                        Quote: KKND
                        In particular, a range of 300 km is written there for target detection locators.
                        And for you with an EPR of 3 m²: detection at oncoming courses: 350-400 km (in the zone of 100 sq. Degrees, against the sky)
                        With a much smaller antenna and radiation power of the SU-35S radar.

                        Here is an excerpt from a wiki ...
                        In addition, the fighter has a promising Irbis phased array antenna with a phased array, which today has unique characteristics in terms of target detection range. By its characteristics, this radar is close to what is on the F-22. On colliding courses, Irbis-E can detect targets at ranges up to 350-400 km.

                        Regarding IRBIS-E, I’ll tell you my opinion ... I believe that in the near future Irbis, Kupolov and Bars will be replaced by new AFARs that are developing and testing ... the same ZhUK-AE instead of the Irbis, Kupolov and Bars. Creation of national AFAR works KRET and NIIP them. Tikhomirova. And time will tell there.
                      10. KKND
                        KKND 29 February 2016 22: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        In addition, the fighter has a promising Irbis phased array antenna with a phased array, which today has unique characteristics in terms of target detection range. By its characteristics, this radar is close to what is on the F-22. On colliding courses, Irbis-E can detect targets at ranges up to 350-400 km.

                        Did you get it from here? http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201411041339-lmhe.htm
                        Will they say on the Patriotic Channel that we urgently need an AFAR? Otmazyvatsya that PFAR no worse. Although why then need AFAR?
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Regarding IRBIS-E, I’ll tell you my opinion ... I believe that in the near future on the SU-35,30,34 they will put in place of the Irbis, Kupolov and Bars new AFAR that are developing and testing ... the same ZhUK-AE.Nad Creation of national AFAR works KRET and NIIP them. Tikhomirova.

                        This is the most important thing. Let us be behind, but I think we will make excellent AFAR and compete with the West.
                        Patriotic tales just do not have to write about the miracle of radar stations that a raptor will see for 300 km, and work to eliminate the backlog.
                        We were able to MIG-31 with HEADLAND the first in the world to make. hi
                      11. NEXUS
                        NEXUS 29 February 2016 22: 26
                        +3
                        Quote: KKND
                        This is the most important thing. Let us be behind, but I think we will make excellent AFAR and compete with the West.
                        Patriotic tales just do not have to write about the miracle of radar stations that a raptor will see for 300 km, and work to eliminate the backlog.
                        We were able to MIG-31 with HEADLAND the first in the world to make.

                        I don’t think that we are far behind. The operation in Syria is proof of this.
                        And returning to our conversation, I repeat once again, the SU-35C is no worse than a lizard, and maybe even better. Well, as for the PAK FA, there’s nothing to say. Besides, it will be (sure) a modified car, without any special children’s diseases that can soon be cured, which did not happen with the pangolin and I doubt what will happen to Lightning, because of the exorbitant costs.
                      12. KKND
                        KKND 29 February 2016 22: 42
                        -2
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        I do not think that we are far behind

                        Well, how much, not much ... They already have f-15, f-16, f \ A-18, f-22 flying with them, and in our country only the Bug is brought to mind.
                        According to rumors, the PFAR will also be put on the PAK FA to start ...
                        We don’t have a single serial fighter with AFAR ... And there the French fledged something for themselves and the Chinese fouled something.
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        Well, with regards to the PAK FA, there’s nothing to say. In addition, it will be (I'm sure) a modified car, without any special childhood illnesses

                        If we put the wing on the wing at least in 2017 without childhood diseases, PAK FA will be a cool click for the Americans. They put their Raptor from the late 80s to 2005 on the wing.
                        Quote: NEXUS
                        what will happen to Lightning, by virtue of the exorbitant costs.

                        It will be necessary they will print money. Well, an American citizen will be worse off, nothing, the 80s weren’t sugar either.
                  2. Falcon
                    Falcon 1 March 2016 13: 08
                    0
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    same ZhUK-AE


                    Well, Zhuk-AE is definitely not for the T-50. At least "E" is "export".

                    The "Belka" is planned there.
                  3. NEXUS
                    NEXUS 2 March 2016 02: 13
                    +2
                    Quote: Falcon
                    The "Belka" is planned there.

                    Exactly - Radar H036 Squirrel
                    5 will stand on PAK FA! AFAR, and not just one like Raptor ...
                  4. Falcon
                    Falcon 2 March 2016 11: 04
                    0
                    Quote: NEXUS
                    5 will stand on PAK FA! AFAR, and not just one like Raptor ...


                    Not certainly in that way. Rather 3 AFAR. The second two are the identifier of one's own / another's; they are a little bit embellished by journalists as usual.
                  5. NEXUS
                    NEXUS 3 March 2016 15: 29
                    +1
                    Quote: Falcon
                    Not certainly in that way. Rather 3 AFAR. The second two are the identifier of one's own / another's; they are a little bit embellished by journalists as usual.

                    No, not three, and even I think not five ... there is a lot of information on this and it is different. But I believe that there will be at least five.
                    Although three is still better than one. wink
      6. Sergei1982
        Sergei1982 1 March 2016 05: 24
        0
        In particular, a range of 300 km is written there for target detection locators.
        Well, the detection range of the S-300 in the circular sector and the number of targets are in the hundreds, while the Irbis has 400 km only in the area of ​​100 square degrees, and the detection capabilities are also much more modest than 30 targets.
      7. Falcon
        Falcon 1 March 2016 12: 59
        0
        Quote: Sergei1982
        only in the zone 100 sq hail


        I heard that in the zone 15 * 15 degrees.

        By the way, it’s more important not to determine but to capture the target.
  2. NEXUS
    NEXUS 29 February 2016 19: 58
    +2
    Quote: KKND
    The whole question is whether they are effective against highly maneuverable targets.

    Missiles "AIR-AIR", by definition, are created to destroy highly maneuverable targets, which are actively capable of using both electronic warfare systems and false targets, etc.
  3. KKND
    KKND 29 February 2016 20: 04
    -4
    The P-33 has a maximum overload of 16g, the P-77 has 30g. What is it for?
  4. NEXUS
    NEXUS 29 February 2016 20: 06
    +5
    Quote: KKND
    The P-33 has a maximum overload of 16g, the P-77 has 30g. What is it for?

    And what about Raptor or any other fighter? What overload can a pilot withstand and what turns and somersaults is a manned vehicle capable of? wink
  5. KKND
    KKND 29 February 2016 20: 15
    -3
    Overload operational no more than 9,5g short-term may more. If a modern fighter with 9g can easily shoot down the P-33
    Why do you need a P-77?
  6. Falcon
    Falcon 1 March 2016 13: 02
    0
    Quote: KKND
    P-33 has a maximum overload of 16g


    R-33 8g has overload
  7. gvozdan
    gvozdan 1 March 2016 19: 30
    0
    You are aware that the R-37 has a speed of 6 M. I have little idea how to maneuver to dodge an object moving at a speed of 1,6 km / s. This is 2 times faster than the initial velocity of an airgun shell.
  8. NEXUS
    NEXUS 1 March 2016 19: 41
    +1
    Quote: gvozdan
    You are aware that the R-37 has a speed of 6 M. I have little idea how to maneuver to dodge an object moving at a speed of 1,6 km / s.

    I suspect so that you do not have to maneuver, but you need to pray ... you release the helm and so soulfully:
    Our Father, Thou art in heaven
    Hallowed be your name
    Thy will be done
    Thy kingdom come on earth, as in heaven.
  • KKND
    KKND 29 February 2016 19: 27
    -4
    Quote: NEXUS
    And now, on the SU-35S radar ... the target detection range with an EPR of 0,01m 90 km

    The big question is because Rlo 64n6e, by its characteristics, detects a MiG-21 type target at a distance of 250 km, and this with a much larger antenna diameter and radiation power.
    Data from Wikipedia or from advertising "Irbis" appears to be most likely false, unless our UFOs have been disassembled wassat
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 29 February 2016 19: 37
      +7
      Quote: KKND
      Data from Wikipedia or from advertising "Irbis" appears to be most likely false, unless our UFOs have been disassembled

      Don't be smart, dear. Raptor's EPR data is a much more fun tale.
      With regards to Irbis, as history shows, our developers are more likely to say that they underestimate the characteristics of products, and do not drain the numbers that feed the mattresses of such fans of Disney tales like you. laughing
    2. KKND
      KKND 29 February 2016 20: 01
      -1
      Quote: NEXUS
      Don't be smart, dear. Raptor's EPR data is a much more fun tale.
      With regards to Irbis, as history shows, our developers are more likely to say that they underestimate the characteristics of products, and do not drain the numbers that feed the mattresses of such fans of Disney tales like you.

      I admit, I was an amateur of American fairy tales, but I seemed to be ill.
      The EPR of the Raptor is a secret behind seven seals, but considering that our T-50s also make it inconspicuous, it looks like "stealth" is not such a fairy tale.
      That the mattresses that ours do are "unmatched in the world", but it is very difficult for an ordinary person, like me, to figure it out. And our AFAR is developing despite the super-duper "IRBIS" request
    3. Falcon
      Falcon 1 March 2016 13: 06
      0
      Quote: NEXUS
      Don't be smart, dear. Raptor's EPR data is a much more fun tale.
      With regards to Irbis, as history shows, our developers are more likely to say that they underestimate the characteristics of products, and do not drain the numbers that feed the mattresses of such fans of Disney tales like you.


      Andrew!
      Doesn’t look like you! Usually you don’t get personal wink
    4. NEXUS
      NEXUS 1 March 2016 19: 27
      +2
      Quote: Falcon
      Andrew!
      Doesn’t look like you! Usually you don’t get personal

      I'm sorry, but I could not resist treating myself to simple Soviet sarcasm drinks
  • Falcon
    Falcon 1 March 2016 13: 05
    +1
    Quote: NEXUS
    And now, on the SU-35С radar ... the target detection range with EPR 0,01m 90 km (I am convinced that this figure is greatly underestimated) ...


    Maybe overpriced? There is also a capture parameter, and for purposes with low ESR it is very important. Since it is still necessary to distinguish it from noise.
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 1 March 2016 19: 28
      +1
      Quote: Falcon
      Maybe overpriced? There is also a capture parameter, and for purposes with low ESR it is very important. Since it is still necessary to distinguish it from noise.

      I'm not talking about 0,01 m, but about 90 km ... I believe that the figure is at least twice as large wink
  • aleksey980
    aleksey980 29 February 2016 21: 32
    +4
    Quote: KKND
    in theory, the lizard’s EPR will allow the first to see the SU-35S and the first to launch the AIM-120C AMRAAM

    That's just the point, that in theory. All these comparisons are not worth a damn, because they are taken on a one-on-one basis. In fact, such a clash is complete garbage, because it does not solve anything.
    The real military operations will take place not at all 1 on 1, with all the attendant goodies, such as: a network of radars of different ranges, including their Avaks and our AWACS, active radio-electronic countermeasures, layered air defense, etc. And here it is not the super indicators separately that will play the most decisive importance, but an effective and balanced combination of all the characteristics. Moreover lot more important than the qualities of the technology itself, the tactics of applying these qualities will be to achieve the most effective result in the performance of tasks.
  • Falcon
    Falcon 1 March 2016 13: 12
    0
    Quote: NEXUS
    Name in what "lizard" and "Lighting" are superior to SU-35S. EPR is not taken into account because it is from the words of mattresses and none of our experts, or at least European ones, did not measure the stealth of these fighters.


    Ну our B-2 was calculated. There they gave 0,01m

    By the way, an important advantage is all the aim-9 angle guidance according to DAS. By doing so, they justify unnecessary over maneuverability for the aircraft.
  • Kite
    Kite 2 March 2016 20: 37
    +1
    Quote: NEXUS
    .And with regards to the EPR of mattress fighters, the numbers voiced by the Americans are just their words

    - they are so easily confused in the orders of numbers, they wrote that the EPR is 1 sq.cm (0,0001 sq.m). So the numbers are manipulated from misunderstanding or when fitting to the result with default conditions on the frequency band and type of radar, when tested in favorable static conditions.
  • Nevsky_ZU
    Nevsky_ZU 29 February 2016 07: 33
    +8
    Foreign press: PAK FA is not the fifth generation fighter


    I have no doubt that the T-50 PAK FA meets the requirements of the 5 generation, but the reason for such publications was the delay in testing and the pre-production T-50. Let me remind you, if it’s good to google in Yandex, then somewhere in the 2012 / 2013 year, we were promised the first pre-production arrivals to the VKS (then the RF Air Force) in the 2016 area of ​​the year, and in some places even in the second half of the 2015 year. Today it’s hard to believe even in the first half of 2017 of the year. request
    1. karpah
      karpah 29 February 2016 10: 26
      -11 qualifying.
      This is a flying iron and a child prodigy. monstrous cut dough. That is what I constantly read on this resource when it comes to any delay and childhood illness F-35.
      1. Wheel
        Wheel 29 February 2016 11: 24
        15
        Quote: karpah
        This is a flying iron and a child prodigy. monstrous cut dough. That is what I constantly read on this resource when it comes to any delay and childhood illness F-35.

        What are you, what are you!
        The car is super!
        Take as much as possible! laughing
        1. karpah
          karpah 29 February 2016 15: 25
          -15 qualifying.
          And we are going to take. We are talking about 4 F-35 squadrons with our weapons and our avionics, and it will be much better than the basic F-35. And in addition, the possibility of acquiring the F-15E squadron to work on ground targets after the 35th suppress anti-aircraft defense is being weighed. And let me say one more thing. Patriotism is a good thing, but a true patriot should see everything in real light, and not through pink glasses. I love my country no less than you do mine, but this does not prevent me from recognizing the unsatisfactory position of sniper business in the linear units of the IDF or my user dislike of Galil. And you guys, if you look at the statistics of air battles of Soviet aircraft against Western ones, starting from the 50s, you will understand that the ratio of losses at times is not in favor of Soviet aircraft .. And after testing our MIG-29 Air Force 20 years ago, purchases of F -16, as the pilots were convinced that the MIG-29 was not a threat. This is true, even if it is unpleasant for someone.
          1. Vladimirets
            Vladimirets 29 February 2016 15: 48
            10
            Quote: karpah
            If you look at the statistics of air battles of Soviet aircraft against Western ones, starting from the 50s, you will understand that the loss ratio at times is not in favor of Soviet aircraft ..

            Are planes already flying on their own? Somehow you simplify: Soviet versus Western. request Let Korea see where the Soviet pilots really flew. There, the ratio of losses at times in favor of the so-called. UN troops? belay
            Quote: karpah
            MIG-29 is not a threat.

            Is it really quite that even planes against it can not be bought, or even the Saber can cope with the MiG-29?
          2. aleks 62 next
            aleks 62 next 29 February 2016 15: 50
            +8
            .... after the 35th suppress anti-aircraft defense ...

            ... They still need to reach that air defense .... "Stealth" can only be in a narrow RF range (these are the laws of physics), for example, for aircraft radars operating in the centimeter and millimeter ranges, and for decimeters 35 -ka will glow like tree for Christmas ... In Yugoslavia, it showed at one time (f-117 shone very well on weather radars !!!!) .....

            .... if you look at the statistics of air battles of Soviet planes against Western ones, starting from the 50s, you will understand that the ratio of losses at times is not in favor of Soviet planes ..

            ...... So who was sitting there at the helm ???? .... Technique, but people control it ... I can recall that I-16 in capable hands gave, if not a light, then it’s worthy to stand against ME-109 .....
            1. karpah
              karpah 29 February 2016 21: 39
              -7
              Do you have any complaints about the aerobatic skills of Soviet pilots? Then I dare to tell you about the results of the only air battle in history between Israeli and Soviet pilots over the Suez Canal in July 1970. Score 5: 0, I can name by name the downed, dead and saved pilots.
              1. Nightrain
                Nightrain 29 February 2016 21: 53
                10
                Score 5: 0, I can name by name the downed, dead and saved pilots.

                You forgot to mention only one detail)) It was a whole special operation involving the best aces of Israel, with lengthy preparation and luring into a trap, in order to "teach the Soviets a lesson." In my opinion, there are even memories of Israeli pilots on this topic.
          3. Nightrain
            Nightrain 29 February 2016 17: 54
            13
            And you guys if you look at the statistics of air battles of Soviet aircraft against Western


            Well, come on, give statistics on Vietnam. Even without taking into account all those thousands shot down with the help of air defense systems. The historical period is almost identical to many Arab-Israeli wars. You Israelis are seriously mistaken in translating the realities of their Near. East to the whole world. Well, lucky you live in an environment surrounded by peoples historically not able to fight (or forgotten how). As an example - toothless Saudis in Yemen, armed to the teeth with the latest Western weapons. Having won a victory over semi-literate neighbors, you imagined yourself to be a great military power, this can be costly when confronted with a serious motivated opponent, God forbid, of course, if this ever happens, but the story is unpredictable.
            1. gvozdan
              gvozdan 1 March 2016 19: 44
              +3
              Who are you arguing with? America's best advertisers and traders made by the sons of Israel)))
          4. shans2
            shans2 29 February 2016 19: 28
            +5
            Take it, take it, you still don’t have any choice, you’ll take any, the f-15,16 issue will stop, the old ones will wear out, you won’t release yours .... but Jews love to pee, the losses of American and Soviet planes in Korea are clearly visible, like in Vietnam ....
          5. aiden
            aiden 29 February 2016 20: 52
            +2
            pilot skill is of utmost importance. looked at the statistics of air battles in Vietnam. And she says the opposite. MIG-21 hurt f-4, and about the MiG-29, thanks to m *** ku who hijacked this plane, and someone studied it thoroughly
          6. Wheel
            Wheel 29 February 2016 23: 24
            +6
            Quote: karpah
            And we are going to take.

            So I say - take more!
            One hell - a freebie.
            Quote: karpah
            Patriotism is a good thing, but a true patriot should see everything in real light, and not through pink glasses.
            You are the first to accuse me of owning pink glasses. laughing drinks
            Quote: karpah
            And you guys, if you look at the statistics of air battles of Soviet aircraft against Western ones, starting from the 50s, you will understand that the loss ratio at times is not in favor of Soviet aircraft ..

            Korea - not in favor of Soviet aircraft?
            Vietnam - not in favor of Soviet aircraft?
            Your war with the Arabs, yes.
            But an interesting point - Israel is fighting with the Arabs and crumbling Soviet equipment on papier-mâché, while in Vietnam, Soviet technology is crushing American papier-mâché Well, that’s exactly 67 and 73 years old ...)
            Perhaps the main thing in laying between the helm and seat?
      2. Приговор
        Приговор 29 February 2016 12: 19
        +5
        Dear, if you do not like this resource so much, you can leave it at any time convenient for you. I think that nothing particularly negative for this resource will happen. If you like to read laudatory odes for the F-35, I have no doubt that such material in sufficient volume you will find in the wonderful Israeli press. I wish you good luck and all the best!
      3. Berg berg
        Berg berg 29 February 2016 12: 51
        +8
        Try to advertise the T-72 tank in Israel and write that it is several times better than Merkava! It will be especially funny if you register that Merkava is brought to the battlefield in auto trailers and the resource of his independent movement is only 100 km, and then a full cap. repair!
        1. karpah
          karpah 29 February 2016 15: 36
          -10 qualifying.
          Firstly, not 100, but much more. Secondly, it is complete idiocy over long distances in its territory to distill tanks under its own power. Because it is an unreasonable consumption of a resource, fuel and the destruction of roads.
          1. mashine
            mashine 29 February 2016 18: 26
            10
            It seems the son of Israel did not understand the irony
          2. Idiot
            Idiot April 3 2016 00: 13
            0
            This once again confirms the fact that Israel is used to fighting in greenhouse conditions with an almost toothless enemy. Imagine: the Germans are preparing for Operation Citadel, bringing tanks to their positions on trucks ...
          3. Idiot
            Idiot April 3 2016 00: 13
            0
            This once again confirms the fact that Israel is used to fighting in greenhouse conditions with an almost toothless enemy. Imagine: the Germans are preparing for Operation Citadel, bringing tanks to their positions on trucks ...
  • Pig
    Pig 29 February 2016 07: 45
    +9
    "" if such a "authority" told ""
    yeah ... ridiculously straight ... the dude from Lockheed Martin will praise direct competitors ...
    1. No login
      No login 29 February 2016 11: 04
      +4
      Quotes from articles published on VO.
      Davydenko said that during the development of the aircraft, Sukhoi Design Bureau simulated the air battle of the T-50 with the F-22. “I think we will have competitive prices. As for the cost / performance criterion, our aircraft is much better, ”the designer added.
      Putin: Russian T-50 fighter is better than American counterparts
      In the opinion of EXPERTS FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, the American "fighter of the future" F-35 will become easy prey for the Russian fifth-generation T-50 aircraft and modern anti-aircraft missile systems such as the S-400/500 or Pantsir-S1. WE UNDERSTAND WHY.

      And why are they worse than our "authorities"? Should you have praised and called your planes flawed? Don't be ridiculous, everyone wants to present their product in the best possible light.
  • ziqzaq
    ziqzaq 29 February 2016 08: 07
    11
    If PAK FA is not a fifth generation fighter, then your fu 35 is not a plane at all, but a cart ....
  • g1v2
    g1v2 29 February 2016 10: 01
    11
    That people like to throw pontoons. The fifth is the fifth. Armament and military equipment is a tool and its task is to ensure superiority over the enemy. If our Su35c, belonging to the fourth generation, is able to withstand their fifth and even surpasses it in some moments, then the more advanced T50 will be even cooler. And the fifth generation or the twentieth is absolutely not important. Personally, I believe that the fifth generation is a dead end generation and the sixth will not rely on it - maybe only some technologies will migrate. However, in any case, the superiority of their air force over our VKS does not rest on a couple of hundred f22 and f35, but on several thousand f15 and f16. Simply put, they have stupidly more fighters than ours, just like we have more tanks.
    1. Serg 122
      Serg 122 29 February 2016 10: 40
      +1
      The representative of Lockheed Martin recalled the Russian project of the PAK FA aircraft, which is positioned by the developer as a fifth-generation fighter. However, according to the American expert, PAK FA refers to the fifth generation only in words. He believes that the fifth generation is not only a specific form that ensures stealth.

      These and not so tell! Their planes are also exceptional, as are themselves. Only now they won’t bring them to mind ...
      1. kartalovkolya
        kartalovkolya 29 February 2016 16: 33
        +2
        Here's an example of another so-called nonsense. amerovsky "analyst" from the cycle: "... my uncle saw how the master ate ..."! And the meaning is astonishingly simple, Russia successfully squeezes the US in the arms market, and especially modern aircraft and their companies are ready to "jump out of their pants" to moan the PAK FA! It's like the story of their super duper stealth F-117, which the Yugoslavs landed with an old air defense system! In short business and nothing personal! And in general, pay less attention to the nonsense of any overseas analysts!
  • Civil
    Civil 29 February 2016 18: 49
    0
    Yes, we're late. Yes, there are questions about the engine. BUT it is necessary to do, a lot and often.
  • 73bor
    73bor 29 February 2016 21: 18
    0
    The guys from Lockheed Martin made a uniform false start, the thief and the hat is on fire, it is interesting who else in Asia wants to sell a "golden plane" !?
  • kugelblitz
    kugelblitz 29 February 2016 07: 29
    +4
    Why then not immediately deny him the right to be an airplane? Haskada iksperdy finely swim. wassat
  • Hammer
    Hammer 29 February 2016 07: 30
    11
    Meanwhile, PAK FA sets a climb rate
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 29 February 2016 23: 38
      +2
      Quote: Hammer
      Meanwhile, PAK FA sets a climb rate

      And this is with the FIRST STAGE engine! wink
  • Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 29 February 2016 07: 32
    +2
    The dog barks, the caravan goes ...
  • ImPerts
    ImPerts 29 February 2016 07: 36
    +4
    Even if the T-50 is taught to simulate civilian airbuses on radar monitors, it will still be an underflight. If before our aircraft were considered a poor imitation of SA, stuffed with rusty iron, unable to even budge. They don’t say that now, they are discussing the effective use of the armed forces and are talking about a budget shortage, which does not allow us to talk about a modern combat-ready army.
    The same thing is said about the T-50.
    The flag in their hands, a drum on the neck!
  • qwert
    qwert 29 February 2016 07: 39
    +5
    So that Americans do not blather there, all this is nonsense, with the exception of this fact:"J. Bender ends his article with a reminder of the current plans of the Russian Air Force. At the moment, it is planned to order 12 T-50 aircraft. It is mentioned that earlier it was planned to buy about 52 aircraft, but due to technical and economic problems, it was decided to cut plans."
    I generally see no reason to invest in such an expensive development if the purchases of a new car will amount to several dozen units. These are not volumes for such a large country as ours, especially which the United States "loves" so much, and which has such a neighbor as China.
    1. vvp2412
      vvp2412 29 February 2016 10: 07
      +4
      This is only the first batch. Imagine, su-35 also buy a few pieces, not hundreds!
  • 1536
    1536 29 February 2016 08: 06
    +4
    Previously, in all defense research institutes, design bureaus and factories, a poster hung in the checkpoints: "A chatterbox is a godsend for a spy!" Times have changed now. We now have girls giving interviews on all defense issues, being "press attaché", heads of the press service, etc. Apparently, someone blurted out something without thinking to foreign "partners", or in a drunken shop let slip about some design flaws. Here is American intelligence and began a campaign to eliminate competitors from the market in the face of Russian aircraft companies.
    Airplane in development. Only after the end of the test and the use of the aircraft in battle, let’s see the 5 of the generation, or some other.
    I now think that the Americans generally do not have airplanes that meet the modern requirements of war and air battles. Some toys in beautiful candy wrappers, where you can comfortably spend time. But what about our military media? Now you have to answer!
    1. looker-on
      looker-on 29 February 2016 09: 05
      +5
      I now think that the Americans generally do not have airplanes that meet the modern requirements of war and air battles. Some toys in beautiful candy wrappers, where you can comfortably spend time.

      You are very wrong. F16,18 and 22 are very dangerous opponents. The A-10 attack aircraft, although they want to collapse, is still a very cool fighter.
      1. vvp2412
        vvp2412 29 February 2016 10: 10
        +3
        F-22 - a very non-dangerous thing .... For the simple reason that it is very expensive, and he is not allowed to fight. Just to show the flag ...
        And there are only about 180 pieces ...
        1. alexmach
          alexmach 29 February 2016 10: 41
          +2
          only about 180 pieces

          Take an interest in how many Su-35 we have and how many are planned. How many are going to buy the T-50? 70-80?
    2. Forest
      Forest 29 February 2016 09: 36
      +2
      So F-15, F-18, F-22 are so far the strongest air fighters from those participating in the hostilities. And the entire development of aviation focuses on their strengths and weaknesses.
    3. KaPToC
      KaPToC 29 February 2016 20: 46
      +1
      The Americans have a beautiful F-18
  • Farvil
    Farvil 29 February 2016 08: 10
    +4
    PAK FA is not a fifth generation fighter. It is the sixth generation and it has no equal.
    1. Blondy
      Blondy 29 February 2016 10: 18
      +4
      Quote: Farvil
      PAK FA is not a fifth generation fighter. It is not sixth generation and its peers

      Although all these "generations" are just marketing gadgets, like stars in hotels, they, like hotels, must provide a certain "set of services". PAKFA, is designated to provide a "set of services" for only the fifth generation. But there is no need to be upset, they are also working hard to provide a set of sixth generation services, although still in the initial phase.
  • tchoni
    tchoni 29 February 2016 08: 28
    +8
    What do you want? Nothing personal - just business. But we regularly read on VO about the schools of Fy35 - so what do we want from them? What would they be silent? Pipes. Wrong people. They love money too much to be silent.
    And to write a lie and half-truth is not the first time. Even if caught on a nonsense - to apologize and go on. But the residue in the heads will remain. That's why the calculation of such articles, especially in authoritative publications, such as the same jane published.
    Thanks to Cyril for vigilance.
  • edeligor
    edeligor 29 February 2016 08: 36
    +7
    in Singapore, the United States introduced its fifth-generation fighter Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor. In addition, statements were made about plans to sell a significant number of the latest F-35 Lightning II fighters to Asian countries
    This is the motto of the emergence of these reasoning of American "divine" engineering and the press. The worst thing is that these conjectures are beginning to copy our scribblers! Those who dealt with maintenance, God forbid, the design of military aviation equipment, know what a level of secrecy - to the point of paranoid! I do not argue that the product is still raw, without native engines, without AFAR, but! The most important thing, in my opinion, the quality of fighter 5 has been achieved, it is supersonic cruising flight speed.
    PS. They are most infuriated by the fact that someone without theft and copying, especially the billions of dollars in investments, was able to achieve results in creating sophisticated equipment and began to compete with them.
  • Warm Padded Jacket
    Warm Padded Jacket 29 February 2016 08: 49
    +2
    own shirt closer to the body)))
  • da Vinci
    da Vinci 29 February 2016 09: 03
    +1
    T 50 now resembles a concept car at the exhibition. Unfortunately, the exhibition dragged on. request
  • mpzss
    mpzss 29 February 2016 09: 03
    +3
    They know that the principle: PRICE-QUALITY is clearly not on their side, so they started * tearing their hair!
    1. Fat
      Fat 29 February 2016 14: 09
      +5
      Quote: mpzss
      They know that the principle: PRICE-QUALITY is clearly not on their side, so they started * tearing their hair!

      You're right. And the experts are right. The most important discrepancy between the T-50 and the requirements for technology of the 5th generation - PAK FA is not expensive enough
  • guzik007
    guzik007 29 February 2016 09: 05
    +2
    Nothing, nothing, a war plan will show.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 29 February 2016 09: 06
    +2
    And the fool understands that this statement is a marketing move in the struggle for the market. The military does not hang up labels on the aircraft, the TTX and LTX of the aircraft of the likely enemy are important to them in order to be able to counter it.
  • Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 29 February 2016 09: 17
    +2
    I immediately make a reservation that all my knowledge about aviation is gleaned from open sources and extremely superficial. Recently I came across a discussion of the T-50 EPR and the following thoughts were voiced there: the EPR in the T-50 is higher than that of its American competitors, primarily from the architecture of the t / c engines, they are straight-through, rather than S-shaped, and the fuselage design left the engines themselves outside but not inside the case. It would be interesting to read the opinion of technically competent aviation enthusiasts on these arguments.
    Thank you.
    1. ImPerts
      ImPerts 29 February 2016 09: 31
      +6
      Also not strong in mathematics, but in the same disputes this was discussed and the opinion was such that here, for the sake of super-maneuverability, super-invisibility was brought. American principle, crept up, fired, dumped. They do not imply maneuverable combat at short distances.
      Yes, and the declared EPR at F-22. It is not verified by independent experts.
    2. Forest
      Forest 29 February 2016 09: 40
      +4
      For F-35, standard nozzles were made, because eventually decided to sacrifice stealth in exchange for flight performance. Moreover, the EPR difference turned out to be small, and taking into account new search devices (such as OLS dryers) - in the future is useless.
    3. Mountain shooter
      Mountain shooter 29 February 2016 09: 44
      +6
      The compressor blades are clearly visible to the radars in the frontal projection of the airplane, so the Yusovsky designers "hid" the inlet sections of the engines behind the bends of the air intakes. But nothing can be gained without losing it. It is clear that such air intakes are less efficient than the Raptor flat nozzles. As a result, our team felt that the game was not worth the candle, and decided that an EPR the size of a neckerchief was not a big price to pay for the excellent flight characteristics of the T-50. And all these EPRs relate to the centimeter and millimeter range of radars. Long-wave radars are indifferent to the shape of an object comparable to their wavelength. And since there was a hint that the T-50 has antennas integrated into the skin of the aircraft, I cannot guarantee that it will see any "invisible" at the limit of range. Well, further - the faster, more maneuverable and with a better trained pilot will win. I think so!
      1. Falcon
        Falcon 29 February 2016 10: 53
        0
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        And all these EPRs belong to the centimeter and millimeter range of radar operation. Long-wave radars are indifferent to the shape of an object comparable to their wavelength.


        As the bottom of the wave increases, the EPR of the object decreases in the square. And do not repeat the notions of our propagandists that meter radars perfectly see the stealth.
        The basics of radar tell the exact opposite.

        Meter radars see further, since the attenuation coefficient is less. but they only see larger objects. Such as the aircraft AWACS or F-15C on tonsils hung with missiles
        1. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm 29 February 2016 14: 12
          +4
          Quote: Falcon
          Meter radars see further, since the attenuation coefficient is less. but they only see larger objects.

          Not larger objects, but commensurate with the wavelength, an object the size of an F-35 will be noticed, moreover, it is very noticeable in the infrared range.
          In the meter range it is impossible to ensure the accuracy of the direction finding of the object and the high-quality guidance of the missiles.
          All meter radars are only surveillance, i.e. giving preliminary designation. To clarify the parameters of the target and missile control, shorter waves (decimeters-centimeters) are needed, and in this range the magnitude of the EPR of stealth means of air attack is very small.
          If the position of an inconspicuous aircraft is known only approximately, then this is enough for modern cm radars with a phased array to take it for tracking at relatively large distances - because it will be known where to look for it.
          1. Falcon
            Falcon 29 February 2016 14: 54
            -6
            Quote: saturn.mmm
            an object the size of f-xnumx will notice


            Just not. Since he has an EPR 0,1M
            1. kugelblitz
              kugelblitz 29 February 2016 15: 22
              +3
              EPR for centimeter and millimeter waves is one thing, and for meter waves it's completely different. Moreover, the EPR of stealth is primarily designed for scattering and partial absorption of radiation, therefore, the return signal is output corresponding to the obtained EPR. Such a room with meter-long waves does not roll, because there simply are no such materials as aerodynamic surfaces do not go out.
              So a meter range radar will see and even give an approximate bearing in the direction for a narrowly directed centimeter (millimeter) radar antenna, which due to the large radiated power will allow you to pinpoint the exact coordinates and send a missile there, or aim an interceptor ...
              1. Falcon
                Falcon 29 February 2016 18: 51
                -4
                Quote: kugelblitz
                EPR for centimeter and millimeter waves is one thing, and for meter waves it's completely different. Moreover, the EPR of stealth is primarily designed for scattering and partial absorption of radiation, therefore, the return signal is output corresponding to the obtained EPR. Such a room with meter-long waves does not roll, because there simply are no such materials as aerodynamic surfaces do not go out.
                So a meter range radar will see and even give an approximate bearing in the direction for a narrowly directed centimeter (millimeter) radar antenna, which due to the large radiated power will allow you to pinpoint the exact coordinates and send a missile there, or aim an interceptor ...


                it's mine. Why did I give a formula for calculating the EPR of an object?

                Here it is quite clear that the EPR is inversely proportional to the SQUARE wavelength. No paints are needed anymore, it already falls in a SQUARE at a meter range.
                1. bk316
                  bk316 29 February 2016 22: 01
                  +3
                  Explain to me, stupid, what is in this formula j.
                  1. Falcon
                    Falcon 1 March 2016 12: 34
                    0
                    Quote: bk316
                    Explain to me, stupid, what is in this formula j.


                    The distribution of electric surface current in the area
                    1. bk316
                      bk316 1 March 2016 17: 08
                      +3
                      I realized thanks, but then you are wrong.

                      Because in the EPR formula, the wavelength is also under the integral, and I can easily set the surface shape and current distribution such that the function will not be monotonically decreasing from the wavelength, it will have beats, even probably resonance.

                      Maybe that's why you are minus (not me)?

                      And by the way, when they write to you about the value of F-35, they’ll probably mean linear dimensions, just when the size and wavelength are equal for some distributions of j, there will be resonance. You count the integral, numerically it's easy.
                      1. Falcon
                        Falcon 2 March 2016 10: 59
                        0
                        Quote: bk316
                        Because in the EPR formula, the wavelength is also under the integral, and I can easily set the surface shape and current distribution such that the function will not be monotonically decreasing from the wavelength, it will have beats, even probably resonance.


                        This is taken into account. Here a special case is given, for a convex surface, for clarity.
                        The EPR of a complex object is calculated by DOR.

                        At the receiving point, a set of parietal signals reflected from different parts of the object simultaneously arrives. They have random phase relationships, since the reflection points are located unpredictably from each other and change over time. With some addition of OD, an increase in the resulting amplitude occurs - the effect of a brilliant point, and at other positions a decrease in the amplitude and a failure of the DOR.

                        All complex goals are a combination of brilliant points and resonant elements. Therefore, the DOR has a complex multi-leaf nature, and the number of petals and dips between them, like the width of the petals, depends on the ratio of the largest target size to the wavelength!

                        Quote: bk316
                        Maybe that's why you are minus (not me)?

                        Yeah, I’m getting it. You yourself believe that why? It’s just not a scribble - the rest is not important. I am always for CONSTRUCTIVE criticism!
                      2. bk316
                        bk316 2 March 2016 19: 24
                        +3
                        I realized it’s still more complicated, is it generally calculated or just measured?

                        Quote: Falcon
                        You yourself believe that why?

                        Purely a hypothesis, but 1 out of 10 minuses may well be why.
                        You still demand a lot from people,
                        how many specialists in radar, or at least applied mathematicians (like me)? Integral over the surface at school do not pass. Yes, and I already forgot everything, a quarter of a century of programming knocks mathematics out of my head laughing
                      3. Falcon
                        Falcon 3 March 2016 14: 58
                        0
                        Quote: bk316
                        I realized it’s still more complicated, is it generally calculated or just measured?


                        At the Institute of Radio Engineering and Electronics of the Russian Academy of Sciences, the B-2 EPR was considered. By mathematical modeling.
                        They got 0,01m. But this is only an estimate.
                        We vryatli will be able to check them. The article is simply furious wassat Professor Sokolov Andrey Vladimirovich wrote. He has many articles on this subject (aircraft radar)

                        In general, in reality, they are measured in anechoic chambers


                        or on special stands. It is impossible to count.
            2. Tjeck
              Tjeck 1 March 2016 06: 23
              +2
              Who cares about the formula when you see the world in pink laughing Anyway, why guess at the coffee grounds when what f-22/35 and what t-50 are classified, time will tell ..
            3. Falcon
              Falcon 1 March 2016 12: 44
              +1
              My friends!
              I AM IMPRESSED!!!

              15 cons for stating laws of physics and radar! fellow good




              Grandfather Einstein rolled over in his grave.

              For everyone for whom physics does not correspond to the Patriotic mood, I give one more opportunity to take me away in this comment! fellow good hi

              It seems really wasting my time here.
    4. Idiot
      Idiot April 3 2016 00: 20
      0
      Without a formula, I would not understand anything. I didn’t set a minus, I put a plus. Always reverent in mathematics.
  • FID
    FID 29 February 2016 09: 24
    12
    Yes, I don't give a damn what the imported "iksperts" write ... The main problem of the T-50 is the motors (it is not known when the motors developed EXACTLY for the T-50 will be) and avionics ... Our developers of avionics and software (software), often BETTER than their foreign colleagues. But ... Where is our domestic microelectronics? It is possible to state with deep regret - while in the anus ... There are developments in Zelenograd, but we are lagging behind, we are lagging behind .... Therefore, our avionics developers are now guided by China, and, it should be, by domestic manufacturers ... I think the main reason why India will abandon the T-50 ...
    1. No login
      No login 29 February 2016 10: 41
      +1
      According to one pilot (1st grade, colonel, instructor in Syria, instantly 23ml), Soviet planes are the best glider, and US planes are traditionally the best electronics. And for no one, I think, it will not be a secret that a huge number of components in the PAK FA are of foreign manufacture. It may even have come under sanctions. And what to replace?
      1. bk316
        bk316 29 February 2016 12: 45
        +4
        Quote: No login
        And not for anyone

        Well, first of all, not "not" but "not". Secondly, I’m probably the same no one, enlighten what foreign components are used in huge quantities in the T-50.
        Only please, without the "words of the pilot"
    2. bk316
      bk316 29 February 2016 12: 53
      +2
      Quote: SSI
      but lagging, lagging ..

      I just want to write an article ....
      Our domestic electronics where ALWAYS was (in relation to non-domestic)
      But it never stopped to make the best aircraft, missiles and electronic warfare equipment.
      No questions why?
      But I know why, because when the vast majority writes on forums on electronics and computers, they think about stumps and Windows. And neither one nor the other for the same T-50 is needed.
      1. FID
        FID 29 February 2016 13: 12
        +2
        Quote: bk316
        But I know why, because when the vast majority writes on forums on electronics and computers, they think about stumps and Windows. And neither one nor the other for the same T-50 is needed.

        You’re my connoisseur ... Can you tell me on what element base the KSU-130 (Yak-130 control system) or EDSU-476 (Il-476 control system) is built ??? At least transmitters CLS (code lines of communication)? Please note, I specifically only voiced military topics ...
        1. bk316
          bk316 29 February 2016 14: 12
          +2
          Well, if you want to understand, let's decide what is the element base.
          What is your definition?

          And about KSU-130, as you know, it consists of a lot of what, to be honest, I saw only UUP-6 UK-9 produced by OAO UPZ, I didn’t notice the pentium there. Moreover, I did not see the assembly system, but the hardware and software architecture was published and in my opinion there is nothing to do in any component or am I wrong?
          1. FID
            FID 29 February 2016 14: 56
            0
            And on the UPU and on the Criminal Code, and on the Central Exhibition Complex, and on the HC, and on the UE there are (in a greater number) elements of US development made in Taiwan ... And what will I decide, with what? 1NT251A rarely where you will meet ... Even resistors, God forgive me ...
            1. bk316
              bk316 29 February 2016 17: 16
              +2
              Attention, you quoted:
              "But I know why, because when the vast majority write on the forums about electronics and computers, they think about stumps and Windows. And neither one nor the other is needed for the same T-50. "
              And now you are writing about 1NT251A.

              Is this what is being determined, or do you think that we cannot produce resistors? here 90nm processors can doand resistors can not?

              When they talk about the element base, somehow they mean everything different: some about resistors, others about VLSI.

              And do not confuse people with products that they have never seen and will not see.
              Take a simple mother from ASUS, read what is written on mikruh, and you will see what is present: single capacitors, transistors, ICs and VLSIs such as the south bridge, that is, representatives of 3 generations of the element base.

              So I say that for the T-50 you do not need those VLSIs that we really can’t do. And that we put Chinese (not Taiwanese) resistors, because it’s cheaper.

              But all that you saw on existing planes can do, well, almost everything. Believe me, I can order a pass to Angstrom if there is an admission.
              1. FID
                FID 29 February 2016 18: 47
                +2
                Quote: bk316
                But all that you saw on existing planes can do, well, almost everything. Believe me, I can order a pass to Angstrom if there is an admission.

                I apologize, why do I need to go to Angstrom? Admission ... I only received a passport in 2010 for business trips ... And 90nm is the day before yesterday, but if you read my posts carefully, I praised Zelenograd ... And I, as an operator, are very concerned about those elements (M / cx, resistors, capacitors), which I have to change ...
                1. bk316
                  bk316 29 February 2016 21: 10
                  +2
                  Quote: SSI
                  And 90nm is the day before yesterday

                  Yesterday's sooner.
                  And Angstrom is just an example, you look at the production there and you will immediately realize that everything that they did in the USSR will be done. So do not worry about resistors and capacitors - this is purely an economy cheaper in Taiwan to buy in Taiwan, it will be necessary to do with us.

                  But what really excites me (maybe because it's my specialty) is all that the microcode has. Certification of the FSTEC is not just profanation, but we know what happened. And everything that is used in connection is especially worrying. They dismantled K-60, but the fact that they replaced the export one is not our devices themselves, but the controllers are gone, that is, even the controllers of our development, but the production is in China. It seems that everything is certified for the absence of bookmarks, but this is in batches ...
            2. Mercenary
              Mercenary 2 March 2016 17: 09
              0
              Quote: SSI
              And on the PMU and on the Criminal Code, and on the Central Exhibition Complex, and on the HC, and on the UP are (in a greater number) elements of US development made in Taiwan ...


              It's called industrial espionage and ... that's okay. Now we steal, then from us, so we clone. Why reinvent the wheel? Stole from the "probable" thought up and - alga.
    3. alexmach
      alexmach 1 March 2016 02: 25
      +1
      Where is our domestic microelectronics? It can be noted with deep regret - while in the anus ... There are developments in Zelenograd, but behind, behind ....


      And it cannot be otherwise. There cannot be an advanced industry working only for the military. For one "military" chip it is necessary to produce 100 "peaceful" ones, then only the industry will be able to work at the world level. Even if you minimize the product range as much as possible.
    4. Mercenary
      Mercenary 2 March 2016 16: 57
      -1
      Quote: SSI
      The main problem of the T-50 is motors


      And what about "motors" not this way?

      You need to turn the screw in the wrong direction, how are the technicians used to?
  • tacet
    tacet 29 February 2016 09: 25
    +2
    Funny opinions. One gets the impression that the judgments (especially about the radar and other equipment) of the authors were inspired by the "hunt for Red October" by Tom Clancy.
  • nrex
    nrex 29 February 2016 09: 29
    0
    There is no smoke without fire, at this stage some deviations from the full list of capabilities of this aircraft as a fifth generation fighter are possible. But this machine has not yet entered the army, and as everyone knows, it is undergoing tests. In the near future we will not learn about the full characteristics of this complex, we will not find out overseas specialists. Take for example a cruise missile caliber. According to the performance characteristics, the flight range should be 300 km, but in fact, as we all saw 1500, but this is not all, there is already talk that the flight range can reach 3000 km. So is the case with the T-50. Why do we need to tell all the features of the machine. Let them think, itch. strain, and articles of this kind can be initially provocative. We must trust our designers if we said the fifth means the fifth, because 4 ++ is already visible in business.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 29 February 2016 09: 33
    +6
    The arguments about the ultra-low EPR of Amerov’s prodigy, from the point of view of physics, do not stand up to criticism.
    You should always include the radar ranges on which these results are obtained. Meter radars (long-wave) are good at observing any "Invisible" as they see an aircraft of any shape, as a linear object of this size. Fortunately, our S 400 type air defense systems have this range. Well, when a rocket with an active seeker approaches the "invisible" at a close distance, it will see it at any RCS.
    Well, throwing mud at a competitor, especially one as dangerous as ours, is in the order of things. The other day, striped-eared pharmacists were literally bile when our vaccine against Ebola turned out to be many times better than theirs. And so everywhere.
    1. KKND
      KKND 29 February 2016 17: 29
      0
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Well, when a rocket with an active seeker approaches the "invisible" at a close distance, it will see it at any RCS

      In more detail, what kind of EPR can the S-400 head see from 300 meters so
  • aviator1913
    aviator1913 29 February 2016 09: 38
    +1
    I hope our industry will respond to this not with a press conference, but with new developments and the T-50 fighters that have been commissioned by the Aerospace Forces. You can endlessly listen to the "+" "-" PAK-FA, while it is not in the troops in the required quantity, these conversations will be empty.
  • antiexpert
    antiexpert 29 February 2016 09: 50
    +3
    let's figure it out, what is the 5th generation technology for?
    in order to successfully gouging a country that has third-generation air defense and air defense
    with the 4th generation, even the 5th generation will have such losses that few will decide to send expensive equipment.
    and against the generation even 4 ++ there will not even be a thought about how to start)))
    1. vvp2412
      vvp2412 29 February 2016 10: 17
      +1
      the accumulation of technology ....
      1. antiexpert
        antiexpert 2 March 2016 00: 36
        0
        the most important sign of the 5th generation is the cosmic value and the highest degree of cut and corruption, that’s what technologies this is)))
  • the47th
    the47th 29 February 2016 09: 53
    0
    American journalists love to measure their mythical "generations". Maybe because there is nothing else?
  • Andy
    Andy 29 February 2016 09: 56
    +1
    This time, J. Bender builds his judgments on the basis of last year’s publications by analysts of the RealClearDefense portal, * which at one time gained access to some documents of the Indian Ministry of Defense *. This country is interested in the Russian project and is considering the possibility of joint development of a fighter based on it.

    these mowgli and close to the development should not be allowed!
  • 2s1122
    2s1122 29 February 2016 10: 02
    +3
    I don’t understand why the fuss is, let’s call the T-50 whatever they want, even though it’s an airship laughing but from this the power and technical dangers of a new product will not disappear good
  • Belousov
    Belousov 29 February 2016 10: 08
    0
    Did someone seriously think that the Americans would praise a direct competitor? Another thing is that we ourselves give rise to these gossip by delaying the deadlines and reducing the declared number of aircraft.
  • Yurmix
    Yurmix 29 February 2016 10: 12
    +3
    Well, of course, the Caspian with border boats was a puddle for you, but it won’t happen, unexpectedly like a child’s diorrhea for you, the Caliber doesn’t fly 500 km. And the little shoes reported how much, on-board electronics and other bells and whistles right on the plates presented. Maybe you’ll cheat about Armata yet, but not everyone knows what it is. By and large, Russian weapons will have to be surprised oh how many many times, and you write, write to the Yankees, maybe it will feel better. laughing
  • vladimir_krm
    vladimir_krm 29 February 2016 10: 21
    +1
    Bgg ... whose cow would mumble, but Lockheed Martin wouldn’t have lost his ears :)
  • Almatinets
    Almatinets 29 February 2016 10: 23
    +1
    reminds cheap marketing: in our shampoo there are more proteins, keratins ... blah blah blah
  • X Y Z
    X Y Z 29 February 2016 10: 42
    +5
    It's very funny when you read how these American guys are running around with this "invisibility", which is actually called stealth. They consider this characteristic to prevail over all the others and write off any technique that, in their opinion, does not fully possess these properties. Reminiscent of the suffering of an old maid who rushes about with her innocence and does not know where to put it. Moreover, the analysis of modern radars, given in one of the articles, suggests that the promising technology will perfectly detect all these "invisible things". But if we consider all this from the point of view of marketing, then the mysterious invisibility certainly weighs heavily on the imagination of the buyer. Maybe they don’t need anything else?
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 29 February 2016 11: 42
      0
      "Moreover, the analysis of modern radars given in one of the articles suggests that
      that a promising technique will perfectly detect all these "invisible" "////

      Will be in about 10 years. But stealth does not stand still. On glider surfaces
      there will be sensors that learn from which direction and at what frequency the plane is probing.
      And special elements will dynamically change the properties of absorbing materials at this frequency so that there is no back reflection.
      1. Wheel
        Wheel 29 February 2016 23: 35
        +2
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Will be in about 10 years. But stealth does not stand still. On glider surfaces
        there will be sensors that learn from which direction and at what frequency the plane is probing.
        And special elements will dynamically change the properties of absorbing materials at this frequency so that there is no back reflection.

        Yeah, introduced ...
        The sensors found out which side and at what frequency the plane was probing ..., a black man came out with a spray of paint and paints all this direction. laughing

        Learn a little physics, or what?
      2. NEXUS
        NEXUS 29 February 2016 23: 46
        +1
        Quote: voyaka uh
        And special elements will dynamically change the properties of absorbing materials at this frequency so that there is no back reflection.

        First, in Abrams, the negro-loader on the autoloader should be changed to normal, and then we'll talk about the sensors. hi
      3. onega67
        onega67 1 March 2016 05: 48
        0
        And all this will cost so much that it will be better to use this invisibility on earth without taking off !!!
  • alexmach
    alexmach 29 February 2016 10: 46
    +5
    Well, if you look formally, then Ibis is really not an AFAR. And there is no engine of the second stage and will not be earlier than 2017, and without it there is no even afterburning supersound ...

    Another thing is that in American planes, not everything from the fifth-generation fantasy list is there.

    We need to pragmatically bring the T-50 to the necessary characteristics, and in the meantime, buy more SU-35.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 29 February 2016 11: 38
      +3
      I think so too. Launch production as is. And the new engines
      and AFAR to put on new planes in the future and replace with already flying ones.
      And establish joint production with India.
      Time is expensive. Soon, the Chinese, not only Americans, will begin to sell the 5th generation.
  • red_october
    red_october 29 February 2016 11: 39
    +2
    The heading clearly shows that the author of the article and its sources doubt the prospects of the Russian PAK FA / T-50 project and believe that it does not fully meet the requirements for the fifth generation of fighters.
    In my opinion, all this fuss with the "fifth generation" and inconspicuousness resembles some kind of marketing ploy, similar to the advertising "head and shoulders", when there is "Shampoo No. 1" and "other shampoos". An inquisitive viewer should not doubt the existence of an alternative reality.
    The Americans are running around with their legend of the "invisible" and the fifth generation, saying that it exists, and here and there, and in the F-35 and F-22 it is 100% implemented, not like these barbarians Russians. "Fifth Generation" means F-22/35. Dot.
    I have no doubt that these fighters have a ton of breakthrough solutions in avionics and so on and so forth. The question is whether this machine is ready to conduct real combat operations, even according to the scenario of a "network-centric war" in a specific theater of operations against an enemy armed not even with a PAK-FA, but with an air group of standard Su-30SMs led by, say (!) A-50 or A-100? And produce the specific desired result. The specific result is a criterion for the effectiveness of a fighter, and not its belonging to the legend of the invincible "fifth generation" promoted (including in many respects) by PR specialists and marketers "Lockheed Martin".
    There is nothing to bother with these nonsense and calmly improve the Su-30 / 34 / 35 and PAK-FA. If industry intelligence provides some information about the F-35 / 22 - even better. Sin is not to take advantage. I hope this happens.
  • surrozh
    surrozh 29 February 2016 11: 55
    0
    Already afraid, then there is something! Surely price-quality-service with similar characteristics.
  • Termit1309
    Termit1309 29 February 2016 12: 00
    +3
    Quote: voyaka uh
    Time is expensive. Soon, the Chinese, not only Americans, will begin to sell the 5th generation.

    For China, the problem of engines is even more acute. Until the engines themselves can do it, for us they are not competitors.
  • Lekov L
    Lekov L 29 February 2016 12: 09
    +4
    Royben F. Johnson and comrade Jeremy Bender (apparently a descendant) at a meeting of the "small council of people's commissars" (c) decided:
    - to consider any planes that fly well and can be controlled by pilots without correcting their mistakes with an American-made on-board computer unworthy of the high rank of the 5 generation;
    - recognize that 5 generation airplanes can be produced only in the USA;
    - The entire Asia-Pacific region to stop trying to purchase aircraft from unworthy manufacturers;
    - approve this resolution unanimously (2me votes) and oblige all countries of the world to comply strictly.
    And if SU 35 is not even quite 4 ++, but closer to 5-, then this is not their competence, so the issue is not being considered.
    I think so, but I - air defense: he did not fly and disturbed others. winked I can be wrong.
    Respectfully..
  • qwert
    qwert 29 February 2016 12: 09
    0
    Quote: vvp2412
    This is only the first batch. Imagine, su-35 also buy a few pieces, not hundreds!

    These are procurement plans for the first three years. Modest batches of four per year. Su-27 were purchased at 60 units per year. And by the way, Su-35 could also be bought in dozens, not pieces. But, it would be if our country's defense capability were the oligarchs' authorized profit.
  • qwert
    qwert 29 February 2016 12: 11
    0
    Quote: Termit1309
    For China, the problem of engines is even more acute. Until the engines themselves can do it, for us they are not competitors.

    Having 600 Su-27 fighters of the latest series, against our 97 Su-27 and Su-35, they can very quickly reach the Urals. And low quality with a small resource of Chinese engines will not prevent them from doing this.
  • Palladin
    Palladin 29 February 2016 12: 15
    0
    Well, let them not recognize, but when our PAK FA meets their 5th generation airplanes in the air, everything will fall into place, it will turn out to be the 6th generation for them.
  • Termit1309
    Termit1309 29 February 2016 12: 20
    +1
    Quote: qwert
    Having 600 Su-27 fighters of the latest series, against our 97 Su-27 and Su-35, they can very quickly reach the Urals. And low quality with a small resource of Chinese engines will not prevent them from doing this.

    Maybe right up to the English Channel?
  • wow
    wow 29 February 2016 12: 33
    0
    "foreign" press of law - the T-50 is not an aircraft of the 5th generation, but already the 6th ...!
  • bk316
    bk316 29 February 2016 12: 33
    +4
    And I'm not surprised.

    No one paid attention to the name of the expert?

    Dzhemeri Ostapovich Bender, worthy successor of the case of Ostap Ibragimovich,
    only Ostap knocked down money on Nyuvasyuki, and Dzhemeri on PR F-22.
  • Red_Hamer
    Red_Hamer 29 February 2016 13: 14
    0
    Lockheed Martin spokesman recalled
    It would be strange to praise a competitor!
    Moreover, they did not take us seriously for a long time, and now they have opened their mouths! Excited!
    "So you are going the right way, comrades!"
    Remember the movie "Office Romance"?
    -How do you like the boots?
    - Very defiant, I would not have taken such.
    - So, good boots, you have to take it!
  • sergeyzzz
    sergeyzzz 29 February 2016 13: 24
    +1
    How it comes to a giraffe. the first samples of the T-50 really did not correspond to the 5th generation, because engines still passed ground tests, the radar was also not native, the latest flight samples should have a complete set.
  • Romanenko
    Romanenko 29 February 2016 14: 27
    +4
    Well here, of course, you can understand them in something, if the F-35 is a 5th generation aircraft, then the T-50 is clearly not from this company. Do not pay attention to statements of this kind of media, let them play and convince each other that PAK FA is a deep modernization of PO-2, and Armata is a modified O8 steam engine (sheep), but for God's sake, what is it to us ???
  • Tambov Wolf
    Tambov Wolf 29 February 2016 14: 47
    0
    Yes, even if at least the first generation will be called, the main thing is to beat the "lizards". And the US chatter should not be taken into account at all.
  • Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 29 February 2016 14: 52
    +1
    How can you take these articles seriously? The T-50 is not a production aircraft, it is a prototype. It will go into series with other engines, with modified avionics, even with a different name. More than one foreign air defense system has never taken him to escort in order to at least somehow judge his EPR. All the main characteristics of the aircraft are classified.
  • partizan86
    partizan86 29 February 2016 15: 22
    +1
    What difference does it make to which generation? The main thing is that the aircraft performs its tasks better, or at least not worse than its competitors.
    The Israelis refused to purchase American news for a simple reason. This toy will not move until it downloads the update (a problem common among modern technology.). They decided that they don’t need such a gift, and even more so, for that kind of money.
  • karpah
    karpah 29 February 2016 15: 29
    -5
    Quote: karpah
    And we are going to take. We are talking about 4 F-35 squadrons with our weapons and our avionics, and it will be much better than the basic F-35. And in addition, the possibility of acquiring the F-15E squadron to work on ground targets after the 35th suppress anti-aircraft defense is being weighed. And let me say one more thing. Patriotism is a good thing, but a true patriot should see everything in real light, and not through pink glasses. I love my country no less than you do mine, but this does not prevent me from recognizing the unsatisfactory position of sniper business in the linear units of the IDF or my user dislike of Galil. And you guys, if you look at the statistics of air battles of Soviet aircraft against Western ones, starting from the 50s, you will understand that the ratio of losses at times is not in favor of Soviet aircraft. And after testing our MIG-29 Air Force 20 years ago, the purchase of F-16 was reduced, as the pilots were convinced that the MIG-29 was not a threat. This is true, even if it is unpleasant for someone.
    1. Dimon19661
      Dimon19661 29 February 2016 15: 57
      +7
      Show pliz statistics from the 50s, where the losses of Soviet aircraft are many times more than American ones. It’s interesting to look. About the MIG-29, you really rented them from Poland. But from your forum,

      On the MiG-29 flew 3 Israeli test pilots, each managed to complete about 20 flights.

      I liked the automatic landing and automatic stabilization systems (for example, if the pilot has a "vertigo").

      The maneuverability of the aircraft is comparable to the F-15 and F-16, and the thrust ratio is better than the F-15.

      The weapon system (a combination of a radar, a helmet-mounted sight and missiles, as well as an IRST thermal imager) is good. The ability to carry missiles with guidance radar gives him an advantage over aircraft without such missiles (in 1997, the Israeli F-16 did not have medium-range missiles).

      At the same time, it was noted that the Israeli helmet-mounted sight is better, but the MiG-29 is still good.

      The aircraft is reliable, durable, easy to maintain.

      Disadvantages:
      1) the ergonomics of the cockpit are not well thought out, the integration of various systems is not good enough, the pilot is not always able to take advantage of all the information received from the aircraft systems in time.
      2) the ability to attack ground targets is very limited;



      And mind you, these are the reviews of your pilots. And you stopped buying because of a cut in the budget of the Air Force. So you don’t need about pink patriotism, you’re truly ambitious.
    2. Feka
      Feka 29 February 2016 20: 29
      0
      Quote: karpah
      Patriotism is a good thing, but a true patriot should see everything in real light, and not through pink glasses.
      Our colleague from sunny Israel speaks the truth, therefore, as a patriot of his country who has drunk his rose-colored glasses on drink, I will also allow myself to express my opinion (well, according to the text of the article, respectively). The Russian PKP "Pecheneg" is not a machine gun, since it uses the same cartridge as in Mosin's "three-line". Even the automatic fire mode, belt feed, a box for belts, bipods and other "pribluda" do not make it a full-fledged machine gun, but rather a "three-line" for "4 ++". Especially depressing is its 80% compatibility with another older "non-machine gun" PKM. The presence of "non-scatter" tapes not only does not allow competing with more advanced Western models at all, but even claim to be a "three-line" at "5". hi
      Quote: karpah
      my user dislike for Galil
      Don't you like cats? You just don’t know how to cook them. No. For me, "Kalash" is better, especially with a grenade launcher.
  • HMR333
    HMR333 29 February 2016 16: 01
    +1
    the essence of these articles is only to try to somehow promote your stub F35 which is still not ready to have a bunch of breakdowns))) and it costs like F22)) well, they have much better equipment especially remember their oxygen system on F22 because of which the pilots lost consciousness and .... because of which they were forbidden to fly at high altitudes))) as the author says, I learned this from a specialist of such a special specialist that I won’t even tell you about him)))) I remember I got a video from American engineers who gorilla about his trash F35 that it would be better both cheaper and more efficient to make 3 models of special modifications (fighter. bomber. attack aircraft) than one F35
  • hobot
    hobot 29 February 2016 18: 55
    +1
    It’s easier to be, and then people will stretch.
    We start mass production - we will help someone in a military conflict with the participation of PAK FA and that’s it.
    Better not to come up with advertising. Syria is an example.