Military Review

Automatic Sa vz. 58 (Czechoslovakia)

56
Main rifle weapons armies of Eastern Europe for several decades were Kalashnikov assault rifles of various modifications and versions. The influence of the Soviet Union and the desire of the leadership of various countries to save on the creation of their own weapons led to this. However, not all countries in the region began purchasing Soviet weapons or producing them under license. For example, the Sa vz submachine gun was in service with the Czechoslovak army for several decades. 58 own development, created as an alternative to Soviet weapons.


The appearance of the Sa vz. 58 (Samopal vzor 1958 - “Automatic machine of the 1958 sample”) was associated with the signing of the Warsaw Pact and subsequent events. Soon after the founding of the Warsaw Pact, the member states began to standardize weapons and military equipment. In order to increase the overall fighting efficiency and simplify a number of important tasks, it was proposed to use the same or at least similar samples. In particular, one of the first steps in this direction was the adoption by all armies of the ATS of the intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm. Most of the ATS countries decided to adopt the Soviet automatic machine design MT. Kalashnikov. Some states began to buy ready-made Soviet-made samples, others purchased a license and launched their own production.

Czechoslovakia, proceeding from the desire to support its design school and industry, made a different decision. In 1956, the transfer to new ammunition was decided to be carried out in two stages. The first implied alteration of the available self-loading carbines vz. 52 under the new intermediate cartridge of the Soviet sample. In the framework of the second stage of the transfer, it was planned to create a promising automaton, originally designed for the use of the cartridge 7,62х39 mm. This approach allowed the army to be transferred to a new ammunition, as well as to avoid the use of foreign samples, thereby supporting its weapon industry.


General view of the Sa vz. 58. Wikimedia Commons Photos


The creation of a new weapon was entrusted to the company Česká Zbrojovka (Uherski Brod). The development manager was the engineer Jiri Chermak. Initially, in the secret documents, the new project appeared under the name Koště ("Broom"). The task of the project was to create a new automatic weapon under the intermediate cartridge 7,62х39 mm with characteristics at the level of the Kalashnikov assault rifles of the Soviet development. It was planned to produce new weapons at Czechoslovak enterprises, which affected some of the project requirements.

The easiest way to achieve the required characteristics was to copy or borrow ideas from Soviet weapons. Nevertheless, the designers under the leadership of I. Chermak decided to develop their own project based on original ideas. The result of this approach was the emergence of weapons that have a certain external similarity with the Soviet AK / AKM. However, the internal units of the two types of weapons had a lot of differences, which make the Broom product a full-fledged original design.

Prospective automatic weapons should have used automatics based on a gas engine. At the same time, the Czechoslovak designers did not copy any decisions of M.T. Kalashnikov and used in their project completely new ideas. As a result, the Koště automatic machine received a very interesting design and an unusual composition of the internal units.

The machine received a milled receiver box of the original design. The outer contours of this unit had a rectangular shape, and inside a set of guides was provided, along which the parts had to move. In addition, there were fastenings for springs, firing mechanism, etc., inside. The box received a shortened lid, which was supposed to close only the back part of it. The front of the receiver, in turn, should have closed the upper part of the bolt group. For attaching the cover to the receiver, a front latch and a rear pin were provided. An interesting feature of the project was the use of pins without the possibility of complete extraction: when removing parts, the pins remained in their fastenings.


Incomplete disassembly of the machine. Wikimedia Commons Photos


In front of the receiver, on a massive monolithic block, on top of it was located the base of the sight, which also served as a support for the gas piston. It had a transverse through-hole for fastening the top cover of the forearm. Under the base of the sight in the box was fixed trunk. Directly in front of the forearm, there was a gas discharge unit with a chamber, which was responsible for the movement of the piston. In the muzzle of the trunk was a node equipped with a front sight and attachments for the bayonet.

An automatic machine designed by I. Chermak was completed with a rifled barrel of 7,62 caliber mm 390 mm long (51 caliber). In the middle of the trunk there was a vent hole connected to the corresponding outdoor units. Initially, the barrel of the machine was not completed with any additional devices, but later several variants of flame arresters appeared, which are necessary for solving special tasks.

The main element of the gas engine of the new machine has become a piston with a short stroke. It was made in the form of a metal rod with several thickenings. An enlarged front part of the piston entered the chamber of the gas exhaust unit, and a narrow shank with an emphasis should be placed in the hole of the base of the sight. There was also a piston's own return spring. During firing, the piston under the influence of powder gases and springs had to make reciprocating motion, pushing the bolt group and returning to its original position. To provide the required thrust to the slide group, the piston could move only a few centimeters.

The bolt group of the Koště submachine gun had an interesting structure, and also differed noticeably from the aggregates of other weapons of this class. Its main element was a slide frame of a complex section: its upper part was triangular, the lower part was rectangular. The entire length of the bolt carrier had cavities of various configurations, for example, at the back there were four holes located by a rhombus. The upper part included the return spring of the bolt group, two medium ones lightened the part, and the lower one was intended for a moving drummer. In the lower rectangular part of the bolt group, there were devices for mounting the shutter and controlling the movement of its parts. On the right side of the frame there was a handle for cocking the weapon.


Pin mounting cover receiver. Further extraction is not possible. Photo Novarata.net


Actually the machine shutter consisted of two main parts: the body and the larvae. The latter was responsible for locking the barrel before firing. During the movement of the bolt group, the bolt parts had to engage with the frame guides and move as necessary. With the extreme front position of the bolt, the swinging larva went down and captured the combat stops of the receiver. When uncoupling after a shot, the larva had to climb up and release the bolt.

A through channel for the installation of a moving drummer was provided inside the bolt carrier. The latter was made in the form of a massive tubular part with a thickened back part and edges on a narrow part. During firing, such a drummer had to catch on a whisper's tooth or move forward under the action of its own combat spring, producing a shot. Rollback and cocking of the drummer were made when the bolt movement backward.

A curious feature of the Broom project was the use of the original receiver cover, designed to hold two springs at once: return and combat. At the rear of the triangular cover was a mount for two springs. Above, directly under the "arch" of the cover, there was a return spring of the bolt carrier. Under it, below the level of the side faces of the cover, there was a combat spring of the drummer. To maintain the correct position, both springs had their own guides. The top was worn on the wire device, and the bottom was equipped with a relatively thick metal rod. When installing the cover on the receiver box, both springs had to go into the corresponding holes of the bolt group and the drummer.

The trigger mechanism of the automaton was built according to a shock pattern. He had a minimum of parts, but could provide firing single shots and bursts. When pressing the trigger, the sear should have let go of the drummer. The principles of the interaction of the sear and the drummer depended on the mode of fire. Above the pistol grip, on the right side of the receiver, there was a small flag of the fuse-translator of fire. Being turned down, the box blocked USM. His turn forward or back allowed to fire in the desired mode.


Gate group in the analysis. From left to right, top to bottom: bolt carrier, bolt larva, drummer and bolt. Photo Novarata.net


New ammunition box magazines for 30 cartridges 7,62x39 mm were proposed for the supply of ammunition. To a certain extent, they resembled the shops of a Kalashnikov assault rifle, however, they had several differences. So, the new design of the feeder and some other innovations were used. In addition, over time, the production of aluminum casings was started, which led to a noticeable reduction in the weight of the structure.

The store should be placed in the lower receiving window of the receiver. At the rear of the window was a spring-loaded latch. Due to the use of a relatively long lever, we had to modify the design of the trigger guard. Its relatively wide front part was divided into two halves, the left one having a concave shape and did not prevent the use of the latch.

Accessories of the first version of the machine should have been made of wood. To the rear wall of the receiver was attached wooden butt of a characteristic curved shape with a butt pad. Inside the butt, a channel was provided for storing a case with accessories. Under the receiver was a wooden pistol grip. To protect the hands from the heated barrel and the gas engine, the machine has received the shank of the combined wooden-metal structure. Its lower part was made in the form of a wooden device, fixed under the trunks. The top one was made of inner metal casing and outer wooden “shell”. The inner casing was supposed to protect the wooden part from the direct influence of powder gases from the chamber.

The latest series of machines received fittings of a different type. While maintaining the shape and size of the parts were molded from plastic with filling in the form of wooden chips. Such butts and handles were cheaper, but not inferior to wooden ones according to their main characteristics.


Trigger brace and store latch lever. Photo Novarata.net


Sights consisted of a fly on a stand above the muzzle of the barrel and an open mechanical sight mounted above the chamber. The sight had markings for firing at a distance of up to 800 m. It was proposed to adjust the sight by changing the angle of the main rail and, as a result, the height of the rear sight.

The machine gun was equipped with a bayonet-knife with a single-sided blade and a wooden handle. For mounting on the weapon, the handle of the bayonet had an L-shaped metal part with a longitudinal groove and a latch. The protrusion should have included the corresponding protrusions of the muzzle of the barrel. With the help of the latch with the button bayonet was fixed in the desired position. For carrying the bayonet were leather sheath with a loop for hanging on the belt.

The original design of the automatics was supposed to work according to new principles. By placing the store in the receiving shaft and cocking the bolt, the shooter could set the fuse-translator in the desired position and fire. When the slide group was moved backward, the return and combat springs were compressed, and the hammer was fixed in the rearmost position. Moving forward under the action of the return spring, the slide frame was supposed to seize the upper cartridge from the magazine and send it to the chamber. Then the swinging larva of a lock made lock.

When the trigger was pressed, the drummer was released, which, under the action of the mainspring, would go forward and hit the cartridge primer. When fired, the powder gases should have been vented through the upper vent hole in the engine chamber and put pressure on the piston. The latter at the same time moved back and hit the front of the bolt carrier. After receiving the impulse, she rolled back and produced a shutter release. When moving back, the liner was thrown away, and the drummer was on the stop. The gas piston returned to its original position under the action of its own spring.

Automatic Sa vz. 58 (Czechoslovakia)
The bayonet and its scabbard. Photo Ak-info.ru


The total length of the new weapon reached 845 mm with a barrel length 390 mm. Machine gun with wooden fittings without ammunition weighed 3,1 kg. The mass of weapons with the magazine increased by about 500. Used automation provided the technical rate of fire at the level of 800 shots per minute. The effective range of fire, despite the marking of the sight, remained within the 400-500 m.

An order to begin developing a new machine has been received in 1956 year. It took about two years to complete all the necessary work, from design to testing. In the 1958 year, according to the test results, the new weapon of the Koště project was approved by the military and was put into service. The machine has received the official designation Samopal vzor 58 or abbreviated Sa vz. 58.

Soon the Czechoslovak industry mastered the mass production of new machines, and the troops began to receive these weapons and learn how to use them. Over the next few decades, the Sa vz. 58 was the main small arms of the armed forces of Czechoslovakia.

Based on the basic design of Sa vz. 58 created several modifications that differed from each other in only a few details. The processing of automation and internal units was considered inappropriate. The basic version of the machine was considered Sa vz. 58, also known as Sa vz. 58P (Pěchotní - "Infantry"). He had a wooden butt without the possibility of folding. A version of Sa vz was also developed. 58V (Výsadkový - “Landing”), which received a metal folding butt. Such a butt consisted of a U-shaped attachment on the receiver, a metal strap and a shoulder rest. To reduce the size of the weapon, the butt turned to the right and fit along the receiver.


Amphibious assault Sa vz. 58V with a folding butt and a modern body kit. Wikimedia Commons Photos


Based on the "infantry" machine based modification, designed for use with a night sight NSP-2. This machine was equipped with appropriate mounts. In addition, in order to avoid “blinding” the sight with a flash of a shot, a flame arrester of new design was mounted on the barrel. This version of the weapon was called Sa vz. 58Pi.

Bringing its development to mass production, Czechoslovak designers began to develop its design. Already in the mid-sixties, I. Chermak and his colleagues began work on the use of new cartridges. The result was the emergence of two interesting prototypes. In 1966, the AP-Z 67 automatic rifle (Automatická puška) was introduced for 7,62x51 mm NATO. Four years later, the project ÚP-Z 70 (Útočná puška - "Assault rifle"), which involved the use of an intermediate cartridge 5,56х45 mm NATO. These projects were not brought to mass production.

After experimenting with ammunition, the Česká Zbrojovka team proceeded with other weapons processing. The result of this in 1976 was the emergence of an experimental machine (Experimentalnbra zbraň) EZ-B, built on the layout of bullpup. At the same time Ruční kulomet (light machine gun) KLEČ was created with the barrel extended to 590 mm. In the future, there were unsuccessful attempts to create on the basis of the machine Sa vz. 58 sniper rifle and submachine gun chambered for 9x19 mm Parabellum.

The enumeration of modifications of the base machine can be completed by mentioning the development of a sufficiently large number of civilian versions of weapons that differed from the prototype by various design features. In particular, the possibility of automatic fire was removed, the dimensions of all weapons and the length of the barrel were changed, and other changes were made.


Automatic with a closed bayonet and magazine pouch for stores. Photo Armoury-online.ru


Start customer Sa vz. 58 became the army of Czechoslovakia. Mass production of these weapons allowed for several years to abandon the use of outdated systems. Armed Czechoslovakia such machines consisted until the collapse of the country. In the future, the independent Czech Republic and Slovakia continued to operate the existing machine guns, although they attempted to put new weapons into service. Despite all the efforts that have been made, Sa vz. 58 has been used for several decades. In accordance with modern trends, relatively old automatic machines were equipped with Picatinny slats, new sights and other additional equipment, which to a certain extent enhanced their characteristics. Only at the beginning of this decade, the Czech Republic was able to complete a full rearmament and master the CZ-805 submachine guns. Slovakia continues to use old weapons.

Having completed the rearmament of its army, the Czechoslovak industry began exporting arms. Sa vz automatons. 58 were supplied to a significant number of foreign countries. third world. According to reports, deliveries were made in about two dozen countries. In addition, in one way or another, weapons fell on other armed formations. For example, along with the armies of Czechoslovakia, Angola, India, Vietnam, etc. Sa vz. 58 was used by Ulster loyalists (Northern Ireland).

Production of Sa vz. 58 lasted until 1984. For a quarter of a century, Czechoslovak enterprises managed to produce about 920 thousand automatic machines of several modifications. A characteristic feature of this weapon, according to shooters, was the high quality of performance and the corresponding reliability. Probably, this opinion is true, which indirectly confirms the duration of the use of weapons: the latest series of machines have more than thirty years and they, along with the older "brothers", are still used.

In the mid-fifties, Czechoslovakia decided not to purchase foreign weapons and not to collect them under license. On the contrary, it was decided to develop our own automatic machine, which allowed us to preserve our design school, as well as to provide industry with jobs. Both of these tasks have been successfully solved. In addition, the machine fully complied with the requirements and was able to reach mass production, providing the country with military weapons for half a century. This allows you to read the Sa vz machine. 58 is a successful model of small arms and a good competitor of the Soviet Kalashnikovs, as an alternative to which it was created. Nevertheless, the competition turned out to be very conditional, as clearly indicated by the number of weapons produced.


On the materials of the sites:
http://world.guns.ru/
http://armoury-online.ru/
http://ak-info.ru/
http://novarata.net/
http://vhu.cz/
http://forum.valka.cz/

Detailed photo-review of the disassembling machine:
http://novarata.net/vz58-pictorial.php
Author:
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  1. Bongo
    Bongo 3 March 2016 06: 19
    10
    The machine received a milled receiver of the original design.
    This certainly affected the cost of manufacture, but strangely enough did not make the weapon heavy. Without cartridges Sa vz. 58 weighed only 2.9 kg - not even bad for weapons with a milled receiver.
    1. serega.fedotov
      serega.fedotov 3 March 2016 09: 42
      10
      Quote: Bongo
      The machine received a milled receiver of the original design.

      I saw close-up pictures of this box, a milling machine's nightmare!
      Although the first AK 47, the weight of the receiver cover was 1kg300 g. But our gunsmiths were able to switch to stamped ones, but the Czechs could not.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 3 March 2016 10: 51
        +6
        Quote: serega.fedotov
        Although the first AK 47, the weight of the receiver cover was 1kg300

        Why fantasize? the receiver cover of the AK was ALWAYS made by stamping from a sheet. In the AK-47, which went into series production in 1949 under the name "AK", the receiver was also stamped, the milled box appeared on the AK in 1951, since it was not possible to obtain high-quality stamping of the box with acceptable rigidity and a low percentage of defects. 1955 the box was once again modified, improving the manufacturability of milling, and finally they switched to a stamped box in 59 years - by adopting the AKM.
      2. castle
        castle 3 March 2016 11: 40
        -1
        The Czechs did not, could not, but did not want to. Better expensive, but that their warriors were more confident.
        1. Irkutian
          Irkutian 3 March 2016 14: 41
          +9
          Sorry, did someone once feel insecure with AK?
        2. gladcu2
          gladcu2 3 March 2016 18: 15
          0
          The Czechs did not need mass weapons for the militia. In an army that does not fight weapons, it lasts a long time and its losses are minimal. And therefore, you can allow more expensive samples.

          Of course, the middle ground is difficult to determine
      3. gladcu2
        gladcu2 3 March 2016 18: 12
        0
        serega

        The lid and receiver are two things.

        A milled receiver may have a degree of advantage over a stamped one. Although the stamped box is an undoubted technological success.

        The bottleneck in AK is the connection of the barrel and receiver. For example, according to users of the Chinese AK series for the American segment of YouTube. The backlash of the Chinese begins with 3000 shots.

        Therefore, milling the receiver, perhaps not bad.
      4. PKK
        PKK 3 March 2016 19: 48
        0
        All this is good, but without a border, the assault rifle is not so interesting. There is nothing to strive for those who don’t have a border. The receiver’s cover on the pin didn’t fly off when fired from a grenade launcher, but God didn’t.
  2. vital.33
    vital.33 3 March 2016 06: 38
    +5
    Does the open shutter not affect reliability? Well, I mean, are you shooting time ?, it is raining for example, it is pouring earth, dust, etc ...?
    1. castle
      castle 3 March 2016 11: 45
      -5
      Does not affect. If you do not do atrocious tests, which weapons, in a real battle, will never experience. Between us. In Vietnam, the American M-16 did not work badly in the rainy season. Those who were not stoned.
      1. vital.33
        vital.33 3 March 2016 19: 16
        +1
        Well, I read about the M-16, and contrary to 90% of the opinion, I do not consider it "bad". I know that the soldiers were simply incorrectly informed at the beginning, and then the gunpowder in the cartridges was not "of that system" ... And then it worked quite well. And by the way, if anyone has watched the series "Retaliation", about SAS, there they often ran with vz. 58, though in such a body kit that I barely recognized her ... precisely by the open shutter ...
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Jackking
        Jackking 1 May 2016 12: 20
        0
        Yes, it worked perfectly, I just had to attach a rammer. But it was attached in no case not because of the poor work of the bolt group, but purely for aesthetic reasons :)))
  3. dmi.pris
    dmi.pris 3 March 2016 07: 13
    +7
    Well, actually the Czechoslovak arms school has always been famous for its original designs.
    1. Jackking
      Jackking 1 May 2016 12: 16
      0
      Especially in supplying the Wehrmacht for the war in the east ...
  4. inkass_98
    inkass_98 3 March 2016 07: 33
    +7
    The goal was good - the preservation of their own weapons school, which the Czechs managed to do. Everything else is secondary. In the end, it turned out to be a reliable assault rifle anyway, but with its cockroaches - more parts, shooting from an open shutter, no ramrod at hand (on the other hand, he remained only in our AK, the rest of the assault rifles and assault rifles of such a device as a constantly wearable attribute haven't had for a long time).
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn 3 March 2016 07: 51
      +1
      It has long been known that Czechs are the only ones in the police department who developed their weapons, but did not bother about its design, and the design was successful ...
      He seemed to shoot from a closed shutter, just a drummer type trigger.
      1. dmi.pris
        dmi.pris 3 March 2016 11: 05
        +1
        They were not the only Poles to make their own small arms. The Chekhs simply always were very good gunsmiths and had a good manufacturing base - Skoda, CZ.
        1. carbine
          carbine 3 March 2016 12: 04
          -9
          Quote: dmi.pris
          They were not the only Poles making their own small arms.

          Then the Romanians and the Chinese. In fact, all these Kbk wz. 88 Tantal, LADA and others, these are variations on the AK-74. And only Sa vz.58 is an independent development.
          You can recall Vz.52 (carbine + RP) under the original cartridge 7.62 × 45mm. Here they were clearly better than SCS and PKK. But AK was generally superfluous. Inexplicable weapon of unknown purpose. But the USSR loved to be so weird.
          By the way, in the case of adopting the Vz.52 pair, the Sa vz.58 analogue on the cartridge 7.62 × 45mm would most likely not have appeared.
    2. Mobius
      Mobius 3 March 2016 08: 57
      +7
      After experiments with ammunition, the Česká Zbrojovka team began other weapons processing. The result of this in 1976 was the appearance of the experimental machine (Experimentální zbraň) EZ-B, built on the layout of bullpups.

      I searched the net and found a bullpup sample of 1975:


      http://strangernn.livejournal.com/842466.html
    3. gross kaput
      gross kaput 3 March 2016 10: 53
      +2
      Quote: inkass_98
      open shutter shooting

      Why does VZ shoot from an open shutter? didn’t you confuse him with the PC for an hour?
    4. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 6 March 2016 17: 49
      0
      For the machine gun, firing in bursts from the open shutter to the closed one does not affect accuracy. Solitary - yes. But if the firing rate is high, then with a closed shutter self-firing of a weapon is possible due to strong heating of the chamber or a change in the properties of gunpowder in the cartridge due to its strong overheating. Plus with an open shutter - better barrel cooling.
  5. Amurets
    Amurets 3 March 2016 08: 24
    +1
    Czechoslovakia has always been famous for its weapons since the time of Austria-Hungary and for its designers, probably starting with Silverst Krnk.
  6. baudolino
    baudolino 3 March 2016 08: 29
    +2
    That means what Samopal looks like).
    1. Mobius
      Mobius 3 March 2016 10: 10
      +4
      Quote: baudolino
      That means what Samopal looks like).


      Samopal looks like this:
  7. karbine
    karbine 3 March 2016 08: 40
    +1
    In 1966, an automatic rifle (Automatická puška) AP-Z 67 was introduced under the 7,62x51 mm NATO cartridge. Four years later, the project ÚP-Z 70 (Útočná puška - “Assault Rifle”) appeared, which implied the use of an intermediate 5,56x45 mm NATO cartridge.

    Interestingly, nowhere can I find information about Czech weapons on a 5,45x39 mm cartridge. I wonder if that was? It is clear that now no one in their right mind will make weapons on such a cartridge. But then?
    Judging by the number of "compliments" that 5,45x39 mm are periodically placed in the special literature in Czech, apparently they did not have a weapon on it. It is a pity that even then the Czechs did not start doing this. It would be interesting to compare this weapon with the AK-74 / RPK-74. Still, the Czechs, this is a fairly serious school for the design of small arms. They could well argue with the design of the AK descendants.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. MORDVIN13rus
      MORDVIN13rus 3 March 2016 22: 06
      0
      It’s strange to hear from you:
      Quote: karbine
      Interestingly, nowhere can I find information about Czech weapons on a 5,45x39 mm cartridge. I wonder if that was? It is clear that now no one in their right mind will make weapons on such a cartridge. But then?

      Moreover, several posts previously mentioned a Czech automatic machine with a caliber of 5,45X39 mm

      Quote: carbine
      carbine Today, 12:04 ↑ New
      Quote: dmi.pris
      They were not the only Poles making their own small arms.
      Then the Romanians and the Chinese. In fact, all these Kbk wz. 88 Tantal, LADA and others, these are variations on the AK-74. And only Sa vz.58 is an independent development.
    3. MORDVIN13rus
      MORDVIN13rus 3 March 2016 22: 09
      0
      Look for info about LADA / CZ 2000, since you can’t use Google hi
      1. karbine
        karbine 3 March 2016 22: 27
        0
        Quote: MORDVIN13rus
        clean info about LADA / CZ 2000, since you can’t use Google

        I can use Google. And there is a link (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8CZ_2000). But I had in mind the original Czech weapons at 5,45x39 mm. LADA, it's still a remake. It looks like the original Czech design, like Sa vz.58 by 7,62x39 mm, was not on the 5,45x39 mm cartridge. Sorry.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  8. tracer
    tracer 3 March 2016 08: 43
    +5
    Good stuff. With the same caliber, it is much more crowded than SCS. Under the receiver, various side mounts are available, including paw tails. Of the minuses, I note a terribly terribly difficult descent. This is a serious minus.
    Another minus is the susceptibility to coroding from the use of live ammunition and improper cleaning. The barrel with the chamber rusts very quickly. Despite the good quality, the appearance resembles a hunchbacked horse.
    1. karbine
      karbine 3 March 2016 08: 50
      +3
      Quote: tracer
      With the same caliber, it is much more crowded than SCS.

      Exactly more crowded? The barrel for SCS is 520 mm, and for Sa vz. 58 390 mm. In principle, a shorter barrel is not a sentence. But on a longer trunk, greater accuracy is much easier to achieve.
      In general, it would be interesting to find somewhere NSD with shooting tables. Even in Czech.
      1. gladcu2
        gladcu2 3 March 2016 18: 21
        +1
        karbin

        There is no point in talking specifically about the accuracy of army weapons. The difference in the accuracy of fire for units of small arms in the same company is enormous.

        For the army there is a single criterion - the effective range of fire.
        1. karbine
          karbine 3 March 2016 18: 33
          -3
          Quote: gladcu2
          For the army there is a single criterion - the effective range of fire.

          Here SKS will have more anyway. The cartridge is the same, but for SCS n / s 735 m / s, and for Sa vz. 58 705 m / s.
          But for some reason it seems to me that the tracer originally had in mind AK, and not SCS.
        2. castle
          castle 3 March 2016 22: 06
          +1
          An effective range of fire is good, but you have to hit the target.
    2. castle
      castle 3 March 2016 09: 29
      +6
      For 5,45x39 mm, the LADA / ČZ 2000 system (Česká Zbrojovka 2000) was created. You will find more or less detailed information at https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8CZ_2000
      I will return to vz. 58. During the shooting, the reliability of the AK 47 and vz.58 was compared. Both machines showed the same reliability. Due to the fact that the processing of parts vz.58 was more accurate, vz.58 showed higher firing accuracy and higher accuracy, despite the fact that the barrel of vz.58 is shorter than that of AK. Thanks to the shorter barrel, the recoil of the vz.58 is softer than that of the AK. At one time, I had enough with vz.58. I have one legally at home.
      1. karbine
        karbine 3 March 2016 10: 03
        -1
        Quote: hrad
        Thanks to the shorter barrel, the recoil of the vz.58 is softer than that of the AK

        Yes, it should be softer already because DE is slightly smaller, 1963 J against 1991 J for AK. And the work of automation matters, but it is different for them.
        Quote: hrad
        For 5,45x39 mm, the LADA / ČZ 2000 system was created

        Fedot, but not the one, unfortunately. Not an independent development, but a modification of the AK-74 with the goal of unification. In addition, a 382 mm long bobbin trunk is embarrassing. Although it would be interesting to compare such an automatic with different AK-12s and the like.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  9. sevtrash
    sevtrash 3 March 2016 08: 57
    +2
    There is not enough comparison with the M16 and AK, in accuracy, reliability, performance.
    1. karbine
      karbine 3 March 2016 09: 13
      -3
      Quote: sevtrash
      There is not enough comparison with the M16 and AK,

      With M16? How can it be compared with the M16? This is a different weapon. It must be compared with AK and StG44. These are weapons of exactly the same class.
      1. sevtrash
        sevtrash 3 March 2016 17: 42
        +1
        Quote: karbine
        With M16? How can it be compared with the M16? This is a different weapon. It must be compared with AK and StG44. These are weapons of exactly the same class.

        And what's the point of comparing with the StG-44? This weapon has long been gone. And M16 was the main weapon of the opposing bloc then. It would be logical to compare.
        1. karbine
          karbine 3 March 2016 17: 51
          -5
          Quote: sevtrash
          And what's the point of comparing with the StG-44? This weapon has long been gone.

          So AK has long been gone.
          Quote: sevtrash
          And M16 was the main weapon of the opposing bloc then. It would be logical to compare.

          Then compare with it the AK-74.
          1. sevtrash
            sevtrash 3 March 2016 20: 09
            +2
            Quote: karbine
            So AK has long been gone.

            It is strange that you do not want / do not want to understand.
            The Czechs made their main weapon for the infantry and fired it at the same time as the AK and M16 family, the main weapon of the Warsaw bloc and NATO, respectively. It would be logical to compare them with each other.
            What is illogical / unacceptable for you? Someone's mind?
            1. karbine
              karbine 3 March 2016 20: 34
              -1
              Quote: sevtrash
              The Czechs made their main weapon for the infantry and fired it at the same time as the AK and M16 family, the main weapon of the Warsaw bloc and NATO, respectively.

              No. You can’t understand in any way that during the times of AK (even rather AKM) and vz.58, no M16 existed. The U.S. Army at that time was armed with M14 rifles.
              Quote: sevtrash
              It would be logical to compare them with each other

              It is logical to compare weapons of one generation. If you want to compare the M16 with something, compare it with the AK-74. And with Czech LADA or ČZ 2000.
              1. sevtrash
                sevtrash 3 March 2016 22: 29
                0
                Quote: karbine
                No. You can’t understand in any way that during the times of AK (even rather AKM) and vz.58, no M16 existed. The U.S. Army at that time was armed with M14 rifles.

                Sa vz. 58 was produced from 1958 to 1984. And the M16 family from 1961 in operation, from 1964 officially adopted, is produced to the present.
                Well, on the basis of which you decided that the M16 did not exist during the time of AK and Sa vz. 58? Do you live in some other universe? At another time?
                1. karbine
                  karbine 3 March 2016 23: 03
                  +1
                  Quote: sevtrash
                  Well, on the basis of which you decided that the M16 did not exist during the time of AK and Sa vz. 58? Do you live in some other universe? At another time?

                  I wrote it for whom?
                  Quote: karbine
                  It is logical to compare weapons of one generation. If you want to compare the M16 with something, compare it with the AK-74. And with Czech LADA or ČZ 2000.

                  How can one compare an automatic army rifle (M16) with a self-loading assault (i.e. weakened army) rifle with the option of choosing a fire mode (i.e. with integrated PP) (AK)? They decided to compare the elephant with a hippopotamus? By what criteria?
                  1. sevtrash
                    sevtrash 3 March 2016 23: 48
                    0
                    Quote: karbine
                    I wrote it for whom?

                    You would first remember what you wrote
                    Quote: karbine
                    You can’t understand in any way that during the times of AK (even rather AKM) and vz.58, no M16 existed. The U.S. Army at that time was armed with M14 rifles.

                    You don’t even know when the M16 was adopted?

                    Quote: karbine
                    It is logical to compare weapons of one generation.

                    It remains to assume that under the word "generation" you have hidden your own special meaning, if you do not know or refuse M16 to be in service at the same time as Sa vz. 58.

                    Quote: karbine
                    By what criteria?

                    By the criterion of the main small arms of the respective armed forces. Apparently, the debate about the comparative advantages and disadvantages of the AK and M16 passed by you. It’s even strange.
                    1. karbine
                      karbine 4 March 2016 00: 01
                      0
                      Quote: sevtrash
                      You don’t even know when the M16 was adopted?

                      Certainly not in the 50s, like AKM and vz. 58. And not in the 40s, like AK.
                      Quote: sevtrash
                      It remains to assume that under the word "generation" you have hidden your own special meaning, if you do not know or refuse M16 to be in service at the same time as Sa vz. 58.

                      "Uncle, you do *** k"? How long can you write that M16 can only be compared with LADA and ČZ 2000 from Czech weapons? Don't you know anything about weapons at all? Not boom boom at all?
                      Quote: sevtrash
                      Apparently, the debate about the comparative advantages and disadvantages of the AK and M16 passed by you. It’s even strange.

                      What could be the debate? Have you seriously decided to compare the Tiger and the T-70? What are the benefits of AK? They are not and cannot be, in principle, because these weapons are completely different classes. A debate on this subject can only be empty chimes. They have a carriage time, and there is no knowledge on the topic. Completely.
                      Even the AK-74 does not roll against the M16A1. In this case, the AK-74 is fundamentally better than the AK (this is generally a weapon of different classes). But M16A2 will be better than M16A1.
                      To make it clearer, RPK-74 in ballistics will be somewhere around M16A1 (but accuracy is noticeably worse).
                      1. karbine
                        karbine 4 March 2016 00: 43
                        0
                        Quote: karbine
                        (but accuracy is noticeably worse).

                        Refers to the accuracy of automatic fire.
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      2. alexqazw
        alexqazw 3 March 2016 19: 01
        0
        It seems you yourself invented some classes of your own, unlike the generally accepted ones
        1. karbine
          karbine 3 March 2016 19: 38
          -3
          Quote: alexqazw
          It seems you yourself invented some classes of your own, unlike the generally accepted ones

          Of course. All these pistols, submachine guns and other assault rifles, I came up with all this. Do not doubt.
  10. Belimbai
    Belimbai 3 March 2016 09: 21
    0
    Yeah, you’ll take it into blind hell .... and even more so.
    1. karbine
      karbine 3 March 2016 09: 48
      -5
      Quote: Belimbai
      Yeah, you’ll take it into blind hell .... and even more so.

      Why collect it and disassemble it blindly?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. stannifer
      stannifer 3 March 2016 12: 33
      0
      Quite normal.
  11. Bolhevik
    Bolhevik 3 March 2016 09: 49
    +3
    It would be better if they were engaged in motorcycles, Java for their economy is much more promising artisanal AK.
  12. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 3 March 2016 10: 03
    0
    self-propelled hang-assault rifle ........- sounds like music))))
    1. michajlo
      michajlo 3 March 2016 20: 08
      0
      Greetings Vladimir!

      I cannot but clarify your "Russian Czech" (language) "visadnoy", since "landing" and "paratrooper" in Czech are pronounced accordingly as "Wadzajki/ výsadkářsky "and "visadage/ výsadkář ", where the letter" er / ř "is pronounced as" zh ", this makes a" softening sign "over the letter from the simple" era ".

      Michael, Smolensk.
  13. uzer 13
    uzer 13 3 March 2016 10: 23
    +3
    [quote] [/ With the same caliber is much more hefty SCS.]

    Where does this information come from? In the training, the SCS was a standard weapon. Two rounds of 100m turned out to be 10 and 9 (0.5 MOA) without any optics. Maybe we’ll start to learn how to shoot, or they just do what they write about the poor accuracy of army weapons. The AKM issued 10,9, 8 and 1 under the same circumstances, it is about XNUMXMOA. Just in high school it was military affairs as an object, and shot every week.
    The Czechoslovak assault rifle is made based on the SCS and the Fedorov assault rifle with some elements of Walter R38. There’s only a good drummer in it, everything else can be called not very successful technical solutions, moreover, not very suitable for real military operations. If dust gets into the shutter it is definitely it will jam what we constantly observe on American rifles. The design of the magazine latch is generally useless. Yes, and expensive to manufacture.
    1. karbine
      karbine 3 March 2016 10: 54
      -3
      Quote: uzer 13
      Fedorov assault rifle

      Yes? Really?
      Quote: uzer 13
      If dust enters the shutter, it will definitely jam, which we constantly observe on American rifles.

      I hesitate to ask, where do you have the opportunity to "constantly observe" this? Sitting on the couch and browsing the Internet? Apparently there. After all, M16, with and without it, is constantly going crazy only there. It remains to be wondered at how they even manage to fire shots from it.
      1. Chisayna
        Chisayna 3 March 2016 11: 31
        0
        You, the same couch warrior on the Internet.
        1. karbine
          karbine 3 March 2016 14: 36
          -1
          Quote: Chisain
          You, the same couch warrior on the Internet.

          What was that? I forgot to drink Zelenka today?
          1. Chisayna
            Chisayna 3 March 2016 14: 48
            0
            And what about inetnye warriors zielonka favorite drink? Yeah, that's why it begets you, drink greens.
            1. karbine
              karbine 3 March 2016 14: 51
              -2
              Quote: Chisain
              And what about inetnye warriors zielonka favorite drink?

              Since you are a bespontovy troll, I turn you off. I do not go to the Internet barking. This is not interesting to me.
              1. cth; fyn
                cth; fyn 4 March 2016 09: 32
                +1
                Yes, you only go yapping and do it. You don’t have any special knowledge. Everything that you write can be found on the censor and similar resources, where Russian weapons in the barrel style are used to blame. The TT does not crawl into the loophole of the T-90 tank, therefore it was a bad gun.
            2. The comment was deleted.
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    3. gross kaput
      gross kaput 3 March 2016 11: 45
      0
      Quote: uzer 13
      100m turned 10 and 9 (0.5 MOA)

      As I understand you! because using terms such as derivation, MOA, thousandth, etc. you immediately feel so knowledgeable and cool! Another meaning of these terms was understood, it would be generally great laughing 1 MOA (Minute Оf Angle - angular minute) in a circle of 360 degrees, in 1 degree 60 angular minutes, 1 angular minute is equal to a circle of 1 inch at a distance of 100 yards or transferring to the metric system 2,54 cm at 91 meters or 2,9 cm on 100 m.
      Quote: uzer 13
      .If dust gets into the shutter, it will definitely jam, which we constantly observe on American rifles

      And how many American rifles have you observed? laughing
      Such people touch me - with such confidence to talk about what you do not understand - these are five laughing
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. stannifer
      stannifer 3 March 2016 12: 45
      +1
      From dust, this shutter certainly does not jam.
      1. uzer 13
        uzer 13 3 March 2016 16: 31
        +3
        I’ll answer right away to you all. I still shoot from the same weapon, it’s just called differently. Well, you friends have heard something about him, or something like that.
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 3 March 2016 17: 42
          -4
          Quote: uzer 13
          I still shoot from the same weapon

          Perhaps you are collecting the same minute groups? laughing Judging by the state of a certain civilian Kalashoid in the hands of "I shoot" here it is too loudly said, rather it is necessary to read "I have."
          Quote: uzer 13
          Well, you friends heard something about him, or something like that.

          Well, yes, we’re wretched and wretched to the man who in the training was given twice to bang from SKS and once from AKM laughing
          Once again, for those who are in the tank - the diameter of 10 standard targets 4 10 is 20 cm, nine -2,9 cm heap in one minute per hundred meters is 1,8 cm half a minute 100 cm, that SKS that AKM is considered to have good accuracy when per 100 m R-5 of at least 7 rounds of 2,4 cm, which is approximately equal to XNUMX MOA.
          So what about the accuracy of AK and SCS, as well as in what and how it is customary to measure now, you really only heard and a photo with a civilian Kalashoid in your hands does not automatically make you an authority on this issue.
          PS And about the heap of SCS, tell this to someone else
          1. uzer 13
            uzer 13 3 March 2016 22: 12
            +2
            You should learn to behave yourself.
            1. gross kaput
              gross kaput 3 March 2016 22: 25
              +1
              And it would not hurt you to learn the materiel before cleverly writing nonsense.
              1. uzer 13
                uzer 13 4 March 2016 01: 07
                0
                Then you need to read the manual on the small arms case for AKM, especially the main tables, and the information on the site of the BPZ manufacturer of hunting cartridges. This is called training the equipment. You just did not learn it. The manufacturer stated the accuracy of the battle 10cm circle on the hunting cartridge 100m.A machine according to the table, even the poorest one, should give an accuracy of 3x4cm per 100m. when shooting solo. Cartridges are different, that's the thing.
                1. gross kaput
                  gross kaput 4 March 2016 12: 23
                  0
                  Quote: uzer 13
                  And the machine according to the table, even the poorest one, should give an accuracy of 3 by 4 cm per 100 m

                  The automatic machine "even inferior" according to the NSD must show the accuracy of at least 15 cm per 100m
                2. gross kaput
                  gross kaput 4 March 2016 12: 52
                  0
                  Quote: uzer 13
                  And the machine according to the table, even the most inferior one, should give an accuracy of 3 by 4 cm per 100 m. when shooting single

                  We continue to form - we take a plate from the NSD AKM and carefully delve into the given figures - this plate gives information not about technical accuracy, but about dispersion, which is not quite the same, but conclusions about accuracy can be made based on it, you just need to carefully understand the given data with single fire from AKM for the best shooters per 100 total deviation (total deviation of 100% of shots) that vertically and horizontally 10 cm (better half 4 cm). Those. the normal accuracy of AKM is a circle with a diameter of 10 cm by 100 meters, in practice, from a stop, a pile is usually in the region of 8 cm, good accuracy of 7 cm, all the same is quite true for SKS, only out of the box SKS usually shows accuracy worse than AK - the trouble is in the iron backlash in the wood and the quality of the trigger.
                  Quote: uzer 13
                  The cartridges are different, that’s the thing.

                  The matter is not in the cartridges, but in the absence of knowledge and unreasonable expectations
                  accuracy from AK to 4 cm.
  14. uskrabut
    uskrabut 3 March 2016 10: 32
    +6
    The dubious use of the venture to create the obviously worst version of the weapon. I personally did not like the shutter device - a lot of caps came out in contrast to the AKM. The article says nothing about the reliability of the machine in different climatic zones, and without this it is difficult to judge weapons. I did not like how to pick out the store, it turns out only with the left hand and with your finger you still need to get into this recess. For me, AKM is the best automatic machine in the world.
    1. carbine
      carbine 3 March 2016 11: 03
      -17 qualifying.
      Quote: uskrabut
      For me, AKM is the best automatic machine in the world.

      The PCA was forgotten. For scoops, this is "our everything." PPSh and AKM. Two little good products that they persistently call "the best in the world."
      1. uskrabut
        uskrabut 3 March 2016 11: 13
        +8
        To each his own. To whom checkers, and to whom to go. And if someone cannot hit the target, then this is the problem of a bad dancer.
        I'm proud to be a SHOVEL.
        I have the honor, most respectable.
        1. carbine
          carbine 3 March 2016 11: 52
          -6
          Quote: uskrabut
          I'm proud to be a SHOVEL.

          That's your business. Someone like you is proud to be Soviet. Someone by the fact that he is Russian. Someone by the fact that he is Norwegian, for example. That's all people and different.
          1. Chisayna
            Chisayna 3 March 2016 12: 07
            +4
            This is not the point. And the fact that you seemed to call it. PPSh and AKM are not very suitable for scoops, it’s our all. Why are they not good for anything? You are probably a repatriate, you live in one very small country, the size of a bug,
            1. carbine
              carbine 3 March 2016 13: 18
              -8
              Quote: Chisain
              You're probably a repatriate, living in one very small country, the size of a bug,

              Do you want to insult this? It didn’t work out. It turned out funny.
              Quote: Chisain
              And why are they of little use?

              And because if you don't cut anything in the shooter, then you need to read, not write. For example, about "a small country the size of a bug."
              Quote: Chisain
              And the fact that you called like. PPSh and AKM are hardly suitable for anything

              This is not a name-calling, this is a fact. The first is bad PP. Even for its age. Second, it is an assault (i.e., weakened) self-loading rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire at close ranges (in fact, an integrated PP). Why did the soldier need this? He needed a normal, not weakened, self-loading rifle with a normal effective range. Of course, nowhere else in the world has such a "weapon" been mass-produced.
              The first one was removed from production back in 1947. (individual weapons on the cartridge 7,62x39 mm went into production only since 1949). The second, in 1974. It would seem that the questions were removed even then. But until now, crowds of "PPSh and AK witnesses" crawl on the Internet, who "know very well that this is the best weapon in the world." True, they cannot say exactly why.
              1. Chisayna
                Chisayna 3 March 2016 13: 49
                +5
                How do you get an Internet warrior? Did you take it into service, AKM, PPSh and take it out of service? Look at my avatar. You see a monster, weighing more than 100 (one hundred) kg. It’s got from the SCS, the distance is 350-400 meters. I doubt that you generally shot from something.
                1. karbine
                  karbine 3 March 2016 14: 24
                  -10 qualifying.
                  Quote: Chisain
                  How do you get an interesting warrior.

                  Korezhit? Specify the place where he is wrinkling, otherwise I don’t feel anything?
                  Quote: Chisain
                  You see a monster, the weight is more than 100 (one hundred) kg

                  1000. In such cases, 2-3 times not camilleph. It is necessary immediately and globally.
                  Quote: Chisain
                  It was obtained from SCS, a distance of 350-400 meters.

                  And what's this? By the rain, apparently.
                  Quote: Chisain
                  I doubt that you even shot from anything.

                  And it's the rain. Some peasant raincoat. General phrases, no specifics. Apparently, he does not own it.
                  PS. Write a letter. In the Ministry of Defense. With the requirement that the SCS back into service. And clearly indicate the return address. And wait for "representatives". In white coats.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. Avantageur
                  Avantageur 4 March 2016 00: 16
                  0
                  Quote: Chisain
                  You see a monster, the weight is more than 100 (one hundred) kg. It was obtained from the SCS, the distance is 350-400 meters. I doubt that you shot at all from anything.

                  He took a dog shot ... Here you go, flayer.
              2. dzeredzavkomimu
                dzeredzavkomimu 3 March 2016 22: 42
                0
                at least laugh, cry, you know the wise guy whom you remind? of the Red Army generals in the year 39, who claimed that the PP was not suitable for dispersing demonstrations and for war, but self-loading rifles with an aiming range of at least 1000 meters were needed, so at the beginning of the war 200 ppd. And bad PP ... for its time ... it’s still fighting in Agan and the same Americans are dragging them as a second weapon, you’ll find the video yourself. You are one of those who claimed that jet fighters only need rocket launchers, and guns are not needed. And about AK in general ridiculed, Maybe about 16 m w? what is her ... powerful and efficient .. cartridge? Nowhere else in the world has been created more? Well, yes, the Germans have their own .. assault ... did you make a couple of pieces? And at the expense of the best? look at the discovery program, there is an American-top- The 10 best assault rifles, AK took first place, at the end of the program the interior designer of the Colt company, which produces 16 m, gives an interior view, his words are, if there will be a sunset in Western civilization, the only thing I want is for AK 47. Questions more Is it? Or are you better at amers understanding weapons and saw more weapons than they are?
                1. karbine
                  karbine 3 March 2016 23: 25
                  -3
                  Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                  Do you know the wise guy whom do you remind?

                  A. Another local "smart guy" came running. And where do you only come from in such quantity.
                  Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                  Generals of the Red Army in the year 39, who claimed that the PP is a weapon for dispersing demonstrations and is not suitable for war

                  Apparently they looked at PPSh and PPD. And they were absolutely right. Full UG.
                  Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                  and need self-loading rifles

                  And right again. They were different from you, ignoramus, and understood a lot about weapons. Therefore, they were generals, not cleaned toilets.
                  Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                  A bad PP ... for its time ... still fighting in Agana and the same Americans drag them as a second weapon

                  What are you. The first and only. And they change their rubybikes to gerych. All the same, they are bespontovye. All polls with PPSh. Like sowing. Koreans with faculty.
                  You have absolutely problems. Big ones.
                  Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                  Well, yes, the Germans are their own .. stormmaker .. a couple of pieces done?

                  And what, after the war, also released? In the underground workshops of your name?
                  Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                  see the discovery program

                  Ah, there they are, where such deep knowledge comes from. No, I'm far from you. I do not get information from the discovery. I fell behind hopelessly.
                  Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                  top 10 best assault rifles, AK took first place

                  My friend, an assault rifle, this is a weakened army. Maybe among the weakened AK-74 and the best, I do not know. Only M16A2, this is an army rifle. Full, not weakened. Did you understand the difference?
                  Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                  the only thing I want is AK 47

                  Wow. He even wants the AK-47. Boy, he may want at least a star from the sky. He doesn’t need it for war. And for war, no one needs AK-47 (except for rogues). Even the USSR refused it in the 70s. Did you catch the difference? A man needs HZ for what. And for war, it does not need anyone who appreciates the lives of their soldiers. Try to remember this.
                  Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                  Do you still have questions? Or are you better at understanding amers in weapons and saw more weapons than they are?

                  You remind the stupid of a famous joke. He also heard a ring, but did not understand what he was talking about.
                2. The comment was deleted.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. Dam
              Dam 3 March 2016 21: 17
              +2
              No, he's just a dumb troll. It spars on all shooting topics and carries the same garbage everywhere. Just ignore. This creature, under the nickname Zeus and the current one, is absolutely not original in retyping the same heresy from topic to topic
              1. karbine
                karbine 3 March 2016 21: 41
                -3
                Quote: Damm
                No, he's just a dumb troll.

                Yeah. So the "clever" troll theorist has arrived. The one that claims that the enemy should not be destroyed. He must be injured. So that 4 people dragged him to the rear. Plus one more orderly. And the insufficient power of Soviet weapons, it is just for this reason, for organizing more wounded animals.
                Seen enough shkolota films about war. And figs knows what. Nobody will drag this wounded man anywhere. He will take his screw and, in response, will close up such a strategist-theoretician a fool between the eyes. He just won't be aware that the enemy must be wounded. Whether he read the revelations of such "author" is hardly likely.
                1. dzeredzavkomimu
                  dzeredzavkomimu 3 March 2016 22: 50
                  0
                  and have you seen enough professional? from the word onal? You go tell the Germans about the insufficient power of Soviet weapons
                  1. karbine
                    karbine 3 March 2016 23: 50
                    +1
                    Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                    and have you seen enough professional? from the word onal?

                    Whoever has pain hurts about that. Does it hurt a lot? And did not try not to disturb? Try it, take a break.
                    Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
                    You go tell the Germans about the insufficient power of Soviet weapons

                    Why would I tell them what they knew without me? You need to tell this. An activist who considers PPSh a full-fledged army weapon.
      2. alexqazw
        alexqazw 3 March 2016 19: 11
        +1
        PPSh and AKM are really of little use, only to fight and no matter what. A work tool, not a toy for pampering like you.
        1. karbine
          karbine 3 March 2016 19: 41
          -5
          Quote: alexqazw
          PPSh and AKM are really of little use, only to fight and no matter what.

          I want to upset you; they’re just not very good at fighting.
          Quote: alexqazw
          not a toy for pampering like you.

          You, boy, go, poke your neighbor. Maybe at least he pummels your neck. Hamov must be taught a culture of behavior.
          1. dzeredzavkomimu
            dzeredzavkomimu 3 March 2016 22: 54
            -2
            and what was good for a war?
        2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Mobius
        Mobius 3 March 2016 21: 39
        0
        Quote: carbine
        The PCA was forgotten. For scoops, this is "our everything".

        You, skull-faced, of course, are not a "scoop" of some kind, you are wiser than everyone gathered here to discuss the article, but the fact that a split personality happened to you in the comments is so little things, just a spring aggravation.
      4. dzeredzavkomimu
        dzeredzavkomimu 3 March 2016 23: 17
        0
        are you better at the Germans and Americans in weapons versus, although the German super auto rifle was removed from the run
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. castle
      castle 3 March 2016 11: 26
      +3
      I respect your personal opinion. But, in the case of AK and vz.58, your personal opinion of what is better and what is worse is not an objective criterion for assessing the real situation. Or, as they say in the Czech Republic, the best beer is the one you are used to.
      1. bunta
        bunta 3 March 2016 12: 12
        +3
        Quote: hrad
        Your personal opinion of what is better and what is worse is not an objective criterion for assessing the actual state of things.

        So what's the matter? Give passport data on ballistics and the results of real reliability tests. From + 50 to -50, with a barrel filled with water, dusting, soaking in a swamp slurry, etc.
        1. castle
          castle 3 March 2016 13: 04
          +2
          Judging by the essence of the questions posed by you, you have information to which we received answers, acting in a real situation. You’ve got cards in your hands, but don’t lie.
          1. bunta
            bunta 3 March 2016 14: 24
            +7
            The answers you received in a combat situation are also interesting to me. But no more than that. I am only interested in official information. I would like to take a look at the real ballistic tables that go to the NSD, or whatever the Czechs call this document. Or is he not in nature?
            As for reliability tests.
            Here is my Sturmgever test chart. Ten items. Everything is indicated down to air temperature and the names of shooters. Based on this document, I’m sure, and with a clear conscience I can say that AK is more reliable than a storm trooper.
            And the phrase "according to the results of firing, product B showed reliability comparable to product A" is an empty phrase for me. With a disguised attempt to cling to someone else's glory.
          2. The comment was deleted.
  15. bunta
    bunta 3 March 2016 11: 23
    +3
    Here is a good report. And about precision and about reliability:
    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/04/joe-grine/gun-review-czech-vzor-58/
    1. castle
      castle 3 March 2016 11: 34
      0
      You rummaged well! But this article is not entirely about the machines that we worked with.
  16. tolancop
    tolancop 3 March 2016 12: 10
    +4
    Quote: hrad
    ... During the shooting, the reliability of AK 47 and vz.58 was compared. Both machines showed the same reliability. Due to the fact that the processing of parts vz.58 was more accurate, vz.58 showed higher firing accuracy and higher accuracy, despite the fact that the barrel of vz.58 is shorter than that of AK. ....

    From my point of view, the thesis that the accuracy of fire is determined by the accuracy of manufacturing is very controversial. Proceeding from it, a sample made on precision equipment and micron tolerances must mold all shots into 10-ku. I believe that the accuracy of manufacture of both the "Czech" and the "Rus" were close, and the design of the machine gun affects the accuracy much more.
    By the way, from my point of view, the achieved accuracy of manufacturing a mass automatic machine does not apply to its advantages at all. You have to pay for accuracy at the production stage, since it costs more and pay at the operation stage (the lower the permissible accuracy, the easier the repair, the higher the interchangeability of parts, etc.).

    I do not hail the Czechoslovakians who decided to arm themselves with weapons of their own design, but I believe there is no reason for special enthusiasm.

    Generally speaking, the unification of weapons within a single military bloc is not the last thing. And if Czechoslovakia decided to arm itself with its own models, and the command of the bloc, read the USSR, did not mind, then most likely for very practical reasons. I think that Czechoslovakia was ALLOWED to do this, taking into account the existing strong design school. The beginning of the development of the Czech machine gun coincides with the work on the elimination of childhood diseases "Kalash". As a result, the Department of Internal Affairs received another sample of the machine. A good machine gun came out, and if it turned out better than the AKM, they could well consider transferring ALL OVD armies to the Czech machine gun. But since there was no noticeable difference, they left it "as is."
    But these are just my assumptions.
    1. Andrey77
      Andrey77 3 March 2016 12: 49
      +3
      That's right. It makes no sense to put a high-precision (and expensive) barrel on consumer goods. So the Czechs didn’t. But Czech rifles are wonderful! They do not compare with ours. I really took the Swiss (SHR), but licked at Czechs for a long time.
    2. bunta
      bunta 3 March 2016 14: 44
      +1
      Quote: tolancop
      I think that Czechoslovakia was allowed

      Nobody forbade anyone and did not allow anything. There was no political or technical reason to ban or allow military development. But the encouragement was present. In addition, these coulomets were brought to us and tested in full.
    3. dzeredzavkomimu
      dzeredzavkomimu 3 March 2016 23: 14
      -1
      the accuracy of the weapon depends largely on the bullet and rigidity of the barrel, when shooting slowly, you can see how the AK barrel bends, plus the butt axis below the axis of the barrel, that's a toss. At m 16 they are on the same line, the bullet is lighter and smaller, the barrel is better processed, that's why it’s more accurate, and it’s almost 20 years younger than AK, although it was remade from an A 15 hunting rifle, chambered for 7.62-51, but as noted in a report to the US Congress made by US military inspectors in 1969, for the reason M16 refused in Vietnam, it was said - .. dirty .. gunpowder, undershot of the cartridge due to weak return pr dinners and light shutter. frames, jamming of the magazine for 30 rounds (recommendation, equip no more than 25) and high HYDRAULICITY of the barrel leading to its bloating in a very humid environment. Here it is still modernized
      1. karbine
        karbine 3 March 2016 23: 43
        0
        Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
        barrel stiffness

        Stiffness, wise guy. Tell the teacher tomorrow to put a deuce in Russian for you. From me.
        Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
        when shooting slowly, you can see how the AK barrel bends, plus the butt axis below the axis of the barrel, that's a toss. At m 16 they are on the same line, the bullet is lighter and smaller, the barrel is better processed, that's why it is more accurate and it is 20 years younger than AK

        But the one that is AK-74, it is younger than M16A1. And it will be weaker. What did they say about this in the universal reference book (discovery)?
        Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
        So it’s still being modernized

        Is it right still? This is where they hung such noodles? Discovery again? Remember, smart guy, on the M16A2 all the upgrades are over. A long time ago. In fact, there is no fundamental difference between A2 and A4.
        Quote: dzeredzavkomimu
        the bullet is lighter and smaller

        Why flies on? Have you studied physics at school yet? It can be seen that he has not yet reached. You will get more.
      2. bunta
        bunta 4 March 2016 10: 07
        +2
        Trunks fluctuate all. And at emok too. Here are just those fluctuations that you observe occur after the bullet takes off.

        The "axis" of the butt. There is no such detail. There is the heel of the back of the butt combined with the axis of the barrel. Such a combination was carried out at the AKM. Long :) before M-16. It has practically no effect on accuracy, since during shooting this heel usually sticks out above the shoulder (fulcrum).

        I’ll just keep silent about the rest.
        1. Andrey77
          Andrey77 22 March 2016 16: 28
          0
          He means the "Streetline" scheme, one could have guessed, and not jerked. :)
  17. castle
    castle 3 March 2016 14: 37
    +9
    Lord! Let’s try to do so, we will leave your political points of view aside, and here we will really deal with technical issues and discussions about the technical and practical side of the issue. I know, not only from the Czech Republic and Slovakia, the guys who worked with vz. 58, many of them worked with AK, just had the opportunity. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about devices, not politics.
    1. Massik
      Massik 3 March 2016 18: 30
      +1
      An objective opinion about this machine can be represented here by 5% of the audience, the maximum that the rest can give "saw, held, shot - once" and a bunch of idle reasoning.
      Strange, but the article does not at all mention braced loading with an attached store. Or is it another song? laughing
      1. gladcu2
        gladcu2 3 March 2016 22: 36
        -1
        Massik

        No one associates a charge-loading from the point of view of critical necessity. Therefore, this issue did not deserve attention.
        1. Massik
          Massik 4 March 2016 19: 52
          0
          Quote: gladcu2
          Massik

          No one associates a charge-loading from the point of view of critical necessity. Therefore, this issue did not deserve attention.
          wassat Yeah, that means M16a1 and AKM which have absolutely nothing to do with this machine have earned ??? wassat
  18. PKK
    PKK 3 March 2016 19: 57
    0
    Quote: Chisain
    And what about inetnye warriors zielonka favorite drink? Yeah, that's why it begets you, drink greens.

    Do not touch Zelenka! This is my favorite Living Water! Influenza treats in two nights. Nothing beats it.
  19. karamultuk
    karamultuk 3 March 2016 21: 26
    0
    how fun it is to read the comments of experts who have never held this typewriter in their hands. I own one like that. Easy to disassemble. Easy to clean. light, soft recoil, very handy and gives excellent accuracy despite the short trunk. unlike the canadian meal, in my memory no one rusts in any way. although I know a lot of them, we drag them on the hunt and in the mud and snow. Probably better parties have come to us. We have this extremely popular barrel. If compared with Izhmash crafts etc. Conversion of military weapons, this is a very high-quality and reliable product. For 7 years I have not had a single wedge in any conditions. In the war, the Afghan dushmans are gavnyuki also used it for no reason. I note two drawbacks: the problem of attaching optics, tinkering over the ears is simply unbearable, especially in the presence of a muzzle brake. in all other respects, if you compare, thank God not in war, but in civilian life, the Czech gaze is an excellent apparatus.
  20. MRomanovich
    MRomanovich 4 March 2016 05: 13
    0
    vz58 coaxial with a machine gun on the T55. Apparently a soldier’s homemade product.
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  23. SlavaSSL
    SlavaSSL 7 March 2016 20: 13
    +1
    I have one. A very double impression. The shops are full of guano, you can’t even drop them, you can’t hold on to the forearm in the original body kit after 20-30 shots, the burns are provided. There’s no need to put a target: you can screw the trunk number in place, of course there are tuned covers, but they cost a little cheaper than the carbine itself. Pros: eats all the cartridges, bolt delay, high-quality performance.