Military Review

Kurt Tank. Long-term link. Part of 2

Kurt Tank. Long-term link. Part of 2

A year later, in 1936, Kurt was able to negotiate the production of the second batch (500 units) of Fw-56А-1 as a training aircraft for pilots mastering the Ju-87 dive bomber, which was one of the main tasks of the German Luftwaffe.

Among the German designers continued the race for speed. And in 1937, Kurt was able to beat the competition by presenting a completely new experimental model of the Fw-187 aircraft. The designer (this has already become a tradition) first tested the plane and, of course, was fascinated by his creation, giving him the name "Falcon" for his quick climb and excellent picking.

During the testing of the factory testing program, Captain Hans Zander, who was sent from the Luftwaffe Flight Test Center for this purpose, confirms that the new fighter surpasses the Messerschmitt counterpart in its speed and combat qualities - Bf-109B-2. "Falcon" developed speed on 35 km / h greater than Messerschmitt.

For victories followed by a series of failures. Firstly, the double Fw-187V-3 created and ready for testing in one of the flights proved to be not the best: the right engine caught fire. The pilot was barely able to reach the ground and finally ditched the plane during an emergency landing on the ground dug up by pits. The plane was written off under the net.

Secondly, Kurt had to endure the death of his famous first-born "Falcon" and his pilot Bauer, who was a very risky one and in one of the flights decided to show off and please the audience with aerobatics. Flying over the airfield, he abruptly tries to make a “dead loop”, but the plane, not reaching the top point of the loop, freezes and then collapses into a flat spin. When colliding with the ground, the plane receives almost 100-percent damage. The pilot is killed.

These accidents led to the fact that the Ministry aviation among most officials, the Messerschmitt fighter Bf-109 enjoyed unquestioned authority, and he had hopes for gaining air supremacy.

Kurt's planes were, as they say, "in the wings." But Kurt remembered his work in the company of an opponent and knew all the strengths and weaknesses of the aircraft produced by Willy Missershmitt. Kurt was able to play on the fact that Willy considered speed as the priority, and not the safety of the devices created.

In the summer of 1937, Kurt seeks reception in Berlin from the head of the Technical Department of the Ministry, General Ernst Udet. The meeting was also attended as experts by the chief engineer of the Luftwaffe, General Lakht and the Deputy Minister of Aviation, General Milch. Kurt spread out in front of them the blueprints of the draft design of the future single-engine front-line fighter, the main distinguishing feature of which was the use of a principled new engine. The radial two-row air-cooled engine became a “trick” of the new fighter and received approval from the three main persons of the Luftwaffe, who knew very well that competition between leading designers would eventually bring something completely new and unusual to their industry. So it happened. Tank also proposed such a design that, if necessary, make a quick replacement of failed parts through the use of standardized technological joints. It was also a new word in design development.

Due to Kurt's assertiveness, the initial contract for the creation of three new types of aircraft was obtained.

Kurt liked to give the names of birds to his planes. Apparently, he knew about it or was a very good hunter. And the new device, which received a bird's nickname, was no exception: the designer called it "Gray Shrike" (Wuerger). Although in Germany the red-headed shrike is found. But the designer could not call his brainchild a word causing involuntary associations with the Red Army. A distinctive feature of this bird of prey is a rather large head and extreme secrecy, lives in the most deaf places and, if hungry, pounces on its prey promptly and mercilessly tormented it. That, however, corresponded to the general view and was another main feature of Fw-190. It was this designation that was invented by officials in the German Ministry of Aviation.

The Gray Shrike created only twelve people. They carefully thought out and developed every detail taking into account the most modern requirements received from specialists of the Aerodynamic Research Institute. Therefore, the unique wing mechanization, profile, and all of the fuselage lines were created in collaboration with a number of other institutions involved in aircraft construction.

But the most difficult thing was to make in reality the engine that was only in draft designs. As soon as the first prototype of the aircraft was ready, and it rose into the sky, it turned out that there was simply a monstrous overheating of the cockpit. The tester even had to wear a gas mask. But over this problem the team under the leadership of Kurt fought long and in vain.

Over time, we managed to overcome many unpleasant moments for the designer, in particular, the main problem was solved: the motor was cooled by operating the fan with 12 blades, which was launched during takeoff and landing.

In the midst of work on a new fighter, in 1939, a delegation of Russian engineers arrived at the Kurt factory. Polikarpov and Yakovlev were able to see only Kurt’s demonstration flights on Fw-56А-1. They did not see the new fighter. But Kurt greeted the guests not only with his flights, but also with a German camp lunch: long tables were laid, each guest could spread his signature pea soup. In response, the Soviet embassy organized a large reception, where there were vodka and caviar. So it was started.

Kurt in Russia was not. And Russian designers did not like. Subsequently, Yakovlev recalled: “... of medium height, firmly-cut man with a hoarse voice, with gray hard eyes. This is a typical fascist Prussian. On his face there are scars from student duels ... Kurt Tank, on the first day of our visit to the plant, sat in the cockpit of the training aircraft and showed the class of aerobatics: well, they say, be surprised - the chief engineer and the director of the plant flies with us. After a lot of fireworks aerobatics Kurt Tank left the plane smug and smiling ... "

Each of the parties, despite the diplomatic moves, knew that sooner or later they would have to show their creations on the battlefield. And here everything depended on the talent and speed of the design bureaus, both from the Soviet side and from the German side. Everyone hurried. Everyone was preparing for war. But Kurt was still late with his designs. His fighter will appear in the Russian sky only in 1942 year.

But first, the plane will be tested in combat conditions in Belgium and France, knocking down enemy planes one by one. The British intelligence officers, having received information about the appearance of the new aircraft, began to hunt for a valuable trophy, but they could not manage to get a valuable copy until he got into their hands: the German pilot had mistakenly landed on an English aerodrome. So the British were able to easily and thoroughly study the entire internal stuffing of the aircraft. And she could not help but surprise.

“The successful engine control lever acting through the central post undoubtedly facilitated the piloting of the aircraft, providing trouble-free and economical adjustment of the engine. Of great interest was the scheme of a bonnet with an armored front ring, allowing for the placement of an oil radiator and oil tank in it, the pumping of oil from the engine directly into the oil tank.

The BMW 139 two-row radial air-cooled engine was born from the idea of ​​connecting two 9-cylinder BMW 132s, which were refined during operation on three-engine passenger junkers and four-engine “Condor” Kurt Tank. The power of the new BMW engine bribed, it was a quarter more than the best V-shaped liquid-cooled engines.

The motor has one dual magneto.

Takeoff power of the motor - 1530 l. with. at 2700 rpm (Pk = 970 mmHg. Art.).
Motor rated power - 1460 l. with. at 2400 rpm (Рk = 935 mmHg. Art.), At the height of 4970 m.
Maximum (one-minute) motor power - 1760 l. with. at 3000 rpm (Pk = 990 mmHg. Art.) At the height of 5500 m.
(The data is borrowed from here: German planes. Research Institute of the Air Force KA, 1944 year.)

The aircraft was also distinguished by powerful armaments: two hundred kilogram bombs, MG 151 guns were mounted on the wings and in the middle - the guns of the Erlikon MGFF: a three-layer trim over the guns served as defense and fortification. Feature of the guns - synchronize them for firing through the screw.

The Soviet Yaks were able to resist such an aircraft on the eastern front.

Do not think that the fascist authorities favored the aircraft designer. On the contrary, despite all the merits, Kurt could be among those punishable to the fullest extent of the law.

It is known that in 1942, Kurt Tank, despite his rank and high position, appeared before a military tribunal under the chairmanship of Hermann Goering, because he could not launch the production of the twin-engine Ta-154 night bomber. The main reason the aircraft designer could refer to and thereby save his life was the lack of appropriate raw materials and equipment, bombed by British troops.

So, in Germany, Kurt had the most "fruitful" list of created aircraft: FW-58 Weihe; FW-187; FW-189; FW-190A1 - A4; FW-190A5 / А6; FW-190A7 / A8; FW-190D; FW-190F; FW-190G; FW-200; Ta-152; Ta-xnumx.

He was also able to start designing an aircraft equipped with a jet engine, but Kurt was able to continue this development only in Argentina, which received excellent cadres thanks to German specialists and was able to create his combat-capable aircraft equipped with jet aircraft relatively quickly.

After the end of the Second World War, according to some eyewitnesses, Kurt contacted the Soviet representatives and clarified their working conditions. But Kurt refused to cooperate and was able to go to the British zone of occupation, from where he reached Argentina with a fake passport in the name of Pedro Mattis. In the same way, even more 60 German designers and workers from his company reached the country.

They were able to agree with the Argentinean command on the continuation of work on the modification of the aircraft Ta-183, then followed the order for the development of the Pulka II fighter jet, which became the first Argentine jet aircraft. After the coup against Peron and the coming to power of the new government, which required immediate results, and when they did not follow, it was decided to buy ready-made planes in America, in 1954, Kurt stopped all work in Cordoba in Argentina and moved to India a year later. offered his knowledge. Although before emigrating to India, Kurt again tried to start anew to cooperate with the new government of Germany, but his desire to build airplanes was resolutely rejected: after the war, Germany had no right to do that.

Kurt goes to India. Thus was created the interceptor plane HF24.

He leaves no hope to return to his homeland, in Germany. Finally, through long negotiations, he is allowed to return. This happened in the 1970 year, when he was already 72 of the year.

He lived, of course, a happy life, despite the fact that many happy lives ended under the wing of the airplanes he created. He died 6 May 1983, at the age of 85 years in Munich, under the Soviet Victory Day. Maybe this is how fate punished him ...
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  1. Filxnumx
    Filxnumx 1 March 2016 07: 02
    The author unconditionally took into account the comments on the previous part of the article and on technical issues, the questions of the combat use of Kurt Tank's planes are practically not affected. The theme of Tank's work abroad was touched very casual. It is already obvious here that this article is translated and technical topics are removed specially.
    But there are bloopers in this push too. The author writes that the Fw-190 was armed with MG151 guns installed in the wing and MG-FF, installed somewhere "in the middle." Although the diagram below clearly shows that the MG-FF cannons are installed in the wing behind the propeller swept area (about half the wing span) and, accordingly, are not equipped with a propeller firing synchronizer. From the same diagram, it is clear that there were not only cannon, as the author writes, but machine-gun and cannon modifications.
    And do not present Fw-190 as a brilliant insight. This is just an imitation of Polikarpov.
    1. mark1
      mark1 1 March 2016 08: 03
      Quote: Fil743
      This is just an imitation of Polikarpov.

      Well this, you old man, have bent over from hot. Although their train of thought went in a similar direction.
      1. Aleksandr72
        Aleksandr72 1 March 2016 09: 23
        Both Kurt Tank and Nikolai Nikolayevich Polikarpov created their fighter planes (FV-190 and I-185 and their development, respectively) under powerful double-row star-shaped air-cooled engines, both designers deliberately went to reduce the wing area and, accordingly, increase the specific load on the wing. Here's how describing the point of view of Polikarpov N.N. to this constructive solution:
        Polikarpov wrote "... an increase in the load per 1 m2 of a fighter wing is an inevitable and progressive phenomenon ..", and argued for this, using specific examples and figures. "... A sharp increase in the power of modern fighter engines makes it possible to significantly increase the load on 1 m 'of the wing without deteriorating vertical maneuverability (and this is what today is combat maneuverability).
        TsAGI in its quasi-scientific work on the selection of the load per 1 meter of the wing "accidentally" overlooked such a powerful factor (which essentially determines the vertical maneuverability) as the load of 1 hp. motor power ...
        The truth of the above is visible at least from the fact that the Yak-7 with a load of ... 177 kg / m 'has a vertical speed at the ground of 16,5 m / s, and the I-185 M-71 with a load of 235 kg / m' - 20 m / s ...
        Climbing time of 5000 m for Yak-7 - 5,3 minutes, for I-185 M-71 - 4,7 minutes ...
        Thus, it is obvious that the time has come to take high loads on 1 m 'of the wing, but at the same time it is necessary to work hard on the selection of the wing and its mechanization ... "

        But if Kurt the tank in his FV-190 put only 2 synchronized guns (not including sighting machine guns, first 7,92-mm caliber, and then 13 mm), and the rest of the guns from 2 to 4 were placed in the wing outside the area, swept by a screw, then Polikarpov in projects - the development of I-185 (unfortunately, not yet embodied in metal): it is I-186 and I-187 all four ShVAK guns were synchronized (two over the engine, two at the root of the wing).
        I have the honor.
        1. Kostya Andreev
          Kostya Andreev 1 March 2016 21: 22
          Quote: Aleksandr72
          I-187 in

          Sorry for the tediousness. but as far as I remember, from "KR" then two above the motor. two in the wing outside the area swept away by the propeller, 150 rounds per barrel. drop-shaped flashlight, motor m-71
      2. dauria
        dauria 1 March 2016 18: 26
        Well this, you old man, have bent over from hot. Although their train of thought went in a similar direction.

        smile That's right, the man said. When the Blaser and Tank team in the 38th only sculpted a prototype, the I-16 was already deemed unsuitable for further modernization. 3 years from 34 to the 37th with us, and only with us was armed with a plane, which showed what should be a fighter. And at 43-44, Polikarpov was already dying of cancer ... The Germans had a similar train of thought laughing , but only appeared 5 years later ...
    2. Fitter65
      Fitter65 1 March 2016 10: 56
      The aunt in the article presented only one of the weapons options for the FW-190 aircraft, and each modification besides the factory ones carried the U index, there were also field ones bearing the R index. For example, the FW-190A-5 fighter had 17 factory and 4 field modifications.
      And to say that the FV-190 is an imitation of Polikarpov ... you would have asked the girl for at least a bit of knowledge, she is 3 times ahead of you in my question on this issue. Something about all the planes can be said to be a simple imitation of the Wright brothers' airplane. No, I of course I heard everything but this !!! So soon you Vitalika (who works as mayor in Kiev) surpass the connoisseur you are our fool
  2. inkass_98
    inkass_98 1 March 2016 07: 21
    About HF24 Marut (the spirit of the storm) could have been written in more detail, and a different photo was attached (although it is from there, from the German Museum of Aviation laughing )
    Modification HF-24
    Wingspan, m 9.00
    Length of aircraft, m 15.87
    Aircraft Height, m ​​3.60
    Wing area, m2 28.50
    Weight, kg
    empty 6159 aircraft
    normal takeoff 8951
    maximum takeoff 10908
    Fuel l
    domestic fuel 2495.75 + 400.1
    PTB 4 x 454.6
    Engine type 2 turbojet engine HAL (Rolls-Royce) Orpheus BOr.2 Mk.703
    Thrust unformed, kN 2 x 21.57
    Maximum speed km / h
    at height 12200 m 1083 (M = 1.02)
    at sea level 1134
    Practical range, km 1772
    Combat radius of action, km 1445
    Maximum rate of climb, m / min 2591
    Practical ceiling, m 13000
    Crew, people 1
    Armament: four 20-mm guns Aden Mk.2 with 120 cartridges for a gun and PU Matra Type 105 with 50x68-mm NUR.
    The combat load - 1814 4 kg hardpoints
    4 454 or 227 kg bombs or napalm tanks, or
    4 PU Matra Type 116 18x68 mm NUR or 105 mm cassette NUR Brandt T-10
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 1 March 2016 07: 36
    Despite the blunders, the author’s article turned out .. I agree with Filxnumx that this article is translatable ... and much points to this ..
    1. efimovaPE
      1 March 2016 09: 06
      No, not transferable.
      1. Zerstorer
        Zerstorer 1 March 2016 09: 59
        Pauline, let me make a few comments:
        1) BMW139 was installed on the prototypes of the FW-190. BMW-801 was installed on production vehicles. On the FW-190D Jumo-213.
        2) Armament and armor changed from version to version. There were also sets of additional equipment and equipment installed in parts.
        3) The biography is given very briefly: he was born, studied, built many planes, died. It seems to me that it can be given in more detail, and if necessary, divided into chapters.

        For the diligence and complexity of the topic +
        1. Bayonet
          Bayonet 1 March 2016 14: 37
          Quote: Zerstorer
          The biography is given very succinctly: born, studied, built many planes, died.

          There is a book, I think you can find it on the Internet. hi
      2. Zerstorer
        Zerstorer 1 March 2016 09: 59
        Pauline, let me make a few comments:
        1) BMW139 was installed on the prototypes of the FW-190. BMW-801 was installed on production vehicles. On the FW-190D Jumo-213.
        2) Armament and armor changed from version to version. There were also sets of additional equipment and equipment installed in parts.
        3) The biography is given very briefly: he was born, studied, built many planes, died. It seems to me that it can be given in more detail, and if necessary, divided into chapters.

        For the diligence and complexity of the topic +
      3. Stas57
        Stas57 1 March 2016 10: 10
        Quote: efimovaPE
        No, not transferable.

        means use a source having a terrible first
      4. opus
        opus 1 March 2016 23: 39
        Quote: efimovaPE
        No, not transferable.

        little about Ta154 .. Kurt still "did" 154

        and about Focke-Wulf Ta .400 forgot wink

  4. Miner
    Miner 1 March 2016 08: 14
    MG 151 guns were installed on the wings and MGFF Erlikon guns in the middle

    "Middle" ... an interesting translation of the concept of a center section :)

    And the guns were installed exactly the opposite - the more powerful and heavier MG 151/20 in the center section, while the lighter MGFF - in the wing consoles.
    1. efimovaPE
      1 March 2016 09: 07
      This I did not understand.
  5. sevtrash
    sevtrash 1 March 2016 09: 13
    The article is somehow incomprehensible - a little about planes, a little more about the designer. As a result, some superficial, if only that was.
  6. npzh
    npzh 1 March 2016 09: 22
    It is known that in 1942 Kurt Tank, despite his rank and high position, appeared before a military tribunal under the chairmanship of Hermann Goering for not being able to arrange the release of the twin-engine night bomber Ta-154.

    Apparently, the Germans had a time machine. The Ta-54 was planned as a night fighter, work on a preliminary design began in September 1942, in the annex to the TTZ it was stipulated that the conclusion of the contract involves the beginning of flight tests on July 15, 1943.
    How Tank could be judged in 1942 for Ta-154 - I do not understand.
    1. Andrey591
      Andrey591 2 March 2016 13: 02
      Work on the preliminary design began in September 1942. By October 14, the developers carried out all the necessary calculations, and another five days later the preliminary design was submitted for consideration by the commission. The new combat aircraft was offered in single and double variants of the ALL-WEIGHT FIGHTER, capable of operating at any time of the day.
  7. Rash
    Rash 1 March 2016 09: 59
    In this article, as in the past, there are many technical inaccuracies.
    But is it forgivable for a woman? smile
    In any case, she writes much better than some novice male authors - interesting and sincere.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 1 March 2016 10: 17
      Quote: Rash
      But is it forgivable for a woman?

      Of course, it’s excusable. And if she didn’t print this oh.neu (through U), they would forgive her definitely. .Well, after all, she has interesting articles that are easy to read and written with knowledge of the matter. Well, and here ... am
    2. Stas57
      Stas57 1 March 2016 10: 43
      Quote: Rash
      But is it forgivable for a woman?
      In any case, she writes much better than some novice male authors - interesting and sincere.

      why excusable?
      oh, mimimi, well, let's turn TopVar into a Rentw, they’re writing the same thing about flying saucers ....

      I am categorically against such an approach, we already have lamers on any issue, even a dime a dozen.

      This I did not understand.

      you forgive me, maybe it’s just better not to take on what you don’t know?

      read yesterday

      In 1935, Kurt managed to get a state order for the manufacture of more than five hundred Fw-56А-1 aircraft.

      A year later, in 1936, Kurt was able to negotiate the production of the second batch (500 units) of Fw-56А-1 as a training aircraft for pilots mastering the Ju-87 dive bomber, which was one of the main tasks of the German Luftwaffe.

      total 1000 aircraft Fw-56А-1 1935-1936

      open any directory and find out
      Focke-Wulf Fw 56
      From May 1935 to December 1936, 445 aircraft were manufactured for the Air Force, 45 aircraft were exported (6 Bulgaria, 9-Austria, 28 in Hungary and 2 in Bolivia). Fw 56 was also purchased by private individuals.
      In total, the 1935 Fw 36 was built at 514-56.
      approximate total number of 900-1000 aircraft built to 1940! yearösser-553

      surpasses the analogue of Messerschmitt - Bf-109В-2 in its speed and combat qualities. "Falcon" developed a speed at 35 km / h greater than Messerschmitt.

      As a result, the Luftwaffe headquarters refused to believe that the speed of the experienced Focke-Wulf fighter was 80 km / h faster than that of the vaunted Messerschmitt. It was believed that Zander had been deceived by the incorrect readings of the instrument. To prove that there was no mistake, Blaser, on Zander's advice, placed a pitot tube in the bow of the Fw-187V1, eliminating any interference with the instruments. Subsequent tests fully confirmed the previous figures.

      These accidents led to the fact that in the Ministry of Aviation among the majority of officials, the Messerschmitt fighter Bf-109 enjoyed indisputable authority, and hopes were pinned on him for winning air superiority.

      Even Hitler, who was present at the exhibition, was very impressed, but the expected reaction from the Technical Department was not followed. The opinion of the latter was thatusing two engines on a single fighter is too much luxury. And although the Tank’s project promised a greater range than single-engine fighters being tested, it didn’t help - the theory prevailed that the best defense for a bomber was speed, which precluded the use of any escort fighter. Thus, there was no need to create a twin-engine fighter.
      The task for the new fighter was actually Tank’s proposal, with the exception of one point - Jumo 210 engines were required to be installed on the experimental aircraft, as all DB 600 produced were already "scheduled" for two years in advance for higher priority developments.

      It's enough?
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 1 March 2016 11: 20
        By the way, yes
        I liked it
        The Soviet Yaks were able to resist such an aircraft on the eastern front.

        why yaki
        why not the same type (star-shaped air-cooled engines) La-5fn or La-7?
        why not landlis?
        1. Cap.Morgan
          Cap.Morgan 1 March 2016 19: 24
          Quote: Stas57
          By the way, yes
          I liked it
          The Soviet Yaks were able to resist such an aircraft on the eastern front.

          why yaki
          why not the same type (star-shaped air-cooled engines) La-5fn or La-7?
          why not landlis?

          But Yaki could resist. Could. Everything is correct)))
  8. Fitter65
    Fitter65 1 March 2016 10: 11
    The tester even had to wear a gas mask. But over this problem, the Kurt team under the leadership fought for a long time and in vain.
    I, a BLONDINK in the kitchen, I PICTURE VERY QUICKLY, though I read slowly. And what I write I don’t read at all ...
    Honestly I didn’t even read further. Unambiguously -.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 1 March 2016 11: 17
      These are automatic translation errors. But the author does not understand the technical meaning.
      1. Fitter65
        Fitter65 1 March 2016 11: 36
        Yes, it makes no difference, if you print an article that has communicated on the Internet, then at least correct the grammatical and stylistic errors. And if you’re still a complete sucker like that (grows in the garden of the bull, the cow doesn’t) get into it. ..
  9. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 1 March 2016 11: 14
    "He died on May 6, 1983 at the age of 85 in Munich, under the Soviet Victory Day. Maybe this is how fate punished him ..."

    He smiled ... at 85 in 1983. It's like living up to a hundred years now. Fate would punish everyone like that.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 1 March 2016 11: 16
      Quote: voyaka uh
      He died 6 on May 1983, at the age of 85 years in Munich, on Soviet Victory Day. Maybe so fate punished him

      yeah, it’s especially funny that he died 5 June .
      oh, this journalism, senseless and merciless
  10. bober1982
    bober1982 1 March 2016 13: 33
    The article is interesting in any case, although the flaws in aviation terminology are immediately evident. And it’s also unusual to constantly remember Tank himself, it turns out to be crony. And so the article is a well-deserved plus.
  11. Parsec
    Parsec 1 March 2016 13: 45
    Quote: inkass_98
    Practical range, km 1772
    Combat radius of action, km 1445

    This relationship of practical range and combat radius is doubtful.
  12. Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 1 March 2016 19: 28
    I'm interested in something else.
    How did the work of Kurt Tank affect the establishment of design schools in Argentina and India?
    What was the fate of the aircraft created after the war?
  13. kvs207
    kvs207 1 March 2016 20: 10
    Quote: Stas57
    means use a source having a terrible first

    There is not all "translation". This piece, for example, is taken from Yakovlev's book "The Purpose of Life".

    “... In the midst of work on a new fighter, a delegation of Russian engineers came to Kurt’s plant in 1939. Polikarpov and Yakovlev could only see Kurt’s demonstration flights on the Fw-56A-1. They did not see the new fighter. But Kurt welcomed the guests. not only by their flights, but also by a German camping lunch: long tables were laid, each guest could pour himself a branded pea soup In response, the Soviet embassy organized a big reception, where there were vodka and caviar.

    Kurt in Russia was not. And Russian designers did not like. Subsequently, Yakovlev recalled: “... of medium height, firmly-cut man with a hoarse voice, with gray hard eyes. This is a typical fascist Prussian. On his face there are scars from student duels ... Kurt Tank, on the first day of our visit to the plant, sat in the cockpit of the training aircraft and showed the class of aerobatics: well, they say, be surprised - the chief engineer and the director of the plant flies with us. After a lot of fireworks aerobatics Kurt Tank left the plane smug and smiling ... "
  14. Dekabrev
    Dekabrev 1 March 2016 23: 20
    It is necessary to criticize, it is necessary to correct, but you might think that on this site there are few jambs.
    Recently, the "spruce goose" was credited with speeds from a fighter and a crew of three for a twenty-hour flight, and few people, in general, noticed. Yes, and you can be indignant without rudeness, especially since the author reacts adequately to criticism.
    By the way, the topic is really complicated. One FW-190 had so many modifications!
    By the way, Pulke II was not the first Argentine jet aircraft. There was also Pulke I (author - Emil Devotin). Pretty bad plane. However, neither the first nor the second in the series did not go. The first was not needed by anyone, and the second was too tough for Argentinean industry.
  15. PKK
    PKK 2 March 2016 04: 12
    For whom is this article written? Every self-respecting lover of various weapons has long studied the majority of publications on this aircraft, on the designer. And such a short article will not give anything informative. In addition, it’s strange for a woman to write articles about military aircraft, it’s like a peasant about bras write.There are ITR women who have deep knowledge of technology, but the author is clearly not related to them. Although there is one interesting thing, I can’t say that I didn’t guess. Kurt was arrogant about the delegation of designers from the USSR, and this pride ruined the Third Reich project. in order to unite with the USSR and conquer the whole World, the Nazis imagined themselves to be the only people. So now, pride does not allow them to unite with Russia. But there is no way out and the Germans will have to flee from Europe to Siberia.
  16. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 4 March 2016 20: 06
    Oh right they said - sorry Madame, well, do not disgrace, you don’t need to write about German aircraft designers even of World War II with stamps in your mind without knowledge of texture.

    Everyone was in a hurry. Everyone was preparing for war. But Kurt was still late with his developments. His fighter will appear in the Russian sky only in 1942 year.

    Comrades, I have become a pad!
    The author apparently does not know that the year of not even creation, but the release of the Fw-190 series, is 1941. And it was created SPECIALLY LIKE A WESTERN FRONT AIRCRAFT! As a machine capable of equally withstanding heavy fire from the gunners of heavy bombers and of maneuvering combat against the masses of cover fighters. Until 1944, the Messers were quite enough for the Eastern Front.
    (In the 1943-44 on the Soviet-German front, Fw-190 were used mainly as STURMARS, replacing partly more effective, but much more vulnerable Ju-87).

    And it was in August 1942 that Tank's "Fokkers" staged a nightmare in the skies over the French Dieppe, essentially exterminating the invasion air forces and thereby disrupting the opening of the Second Front by the Anglo-Saxons in 1942! we don't like to write about this since the Soviet era, accusing the West of all sins, but they actually broke their teeth a couple of times about the Nazi "Fortress Europe" trying to open bridgeheads ...

    Quote: Stas57
    "Soviet Yaks were able to resist such an aircraft on the eastern front."
    why yaki why not the same type (star-shaped air-cooled engines) La-5fn or La-7? why not landlis?

    That's it ! I would say that the aircraft of the Yakovlev Design Bureau were generally much inferior to the Fw-190m. But just La-5 type FN and even more so La-7 and Airacobra - these were things on which it was possible to fight at least partially on an equal footing with "Fokkers".
  17. Dekabrev
    Dekabrev 4 March 2016 23: 17
    I read the recollections of one fighter pilot flying on la-5. How he once got involved in a maneuvering battle with the Bf-109. In short, long gymnastics on bends almost to exhaustion. Then without saying a word, he himself is surprised, scattered in different directions without saying a word. And he himself notes the equal maneuverability of the Bf-109 and La-5. From which we can conclude that any Yak is more maneuverable than La, and therefore more maneuverable Bf-109 and, especially Fw-190.
    I suspect that in the 44th and 45th on the eastern front, the Germans used the Fw-190, first of all, as an attack aircraft that did not require fighter cover, and not as a plane to gain dominance in the air or as a cover fighter. The Bf-109 did not have an advantage over Soviet fighters in maneuverability, but had an advantage in rate of climb, especially at high altitudes, and the Fw-190 did not have this advantage either. Their happiness was only in the fact that Jacob had very weak weapons, and so they would not have fun at all.
  18. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 5 March 2016 19: 17
    Quote: Aspeed
    But he really appeared in the Russian sky in the year 1942.
    More precisely since the winter 42-43. Relatively noticeable from the spring-summer of 43, but really massively only from the summer of 44.

    And yes, the Fokkers were created exactly as aircraft of the Western Front (there was such an American problem as the "unkillable" P-47 Thunderbolt and super-armed and high-speed Tempests and Typhoons).

    Quote: Aspeed
    Soviet pilots generally considered the Messer a more dangerous opponent than the heavy, inert and not too maneuverable FV-190
    Here the point is different - the fact that the Messers were pilots "sharpened" precisely for air battles. And the Fw-190 was also built as a "battlefield aircraft" - and because of its high reliability, ease of piloting and high resilience of the crews, less trained emergency pilots were planted on it for 43 years.

    Quote: Aspeed
    But the drafters of the Manual on the fight against enemy fighters in the 1943 year
    Well, the paper will endure everything ...

    Quote: Aspeed
    In short - in a one-on-one battle, even the worst Soviet fighter - the heavy Yak-7 42 of the year - was tearing the FV-190 as he wanted in any maneuver.
    If everything was so openwork, then why is the loss statistics talking about the exact opposite? and why did we objectively capture air supremacy on the Soviet-German front only in the summer and fall of the 44 year, when the Luftwaffe was already strategically blown away?

    Quote: Dekabrev
    From which we can conclude that any Yak is more maneuverable than La, and therefore more maneuverable Bf-109 and, especially, Fw-190.
    Much depends on the specific skill of specific pilots. A newcomer to Messer doesn’t really do much for the pros at Ishachka.

    Quote: Aspeed
    in close combat, Yaks are more maneuverable than the Lavochkins - this is a fact. Yak-1B and Yak-9 are more maneuverable than La-5FN, Yak-3 and Yak-9U outplayed La-7.
    One correction - most domestic even aviation enthusiasts apparently still do not understand enough the Luftwaffe combat method. Read what a cross falcon attack or bait game is. The Germans had a law - battle on the verticals.
  19. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 5 March 2016 20: 18
    "Thunderbolt" is just a complete analogue of the Fw-190 - overweight, universal, in fact, no escort attack aircraft, by the way, it is mid-altitude aircraft (these are not Mustangs with Spitfires).

    Quote: Aspeed
    The versions of the PV-190 that replaced the Ju-87 could indeed put pilots off the dive, but it’s very difficult to call these guys unprepared.

    The problem was that:
    1) .Pilot pilots preparing for the 2-3 of the year at Ju-87, in principle, are not prepared for fighter combat, but only hastily retrained.
    2) .Pilots were delivered different and not different squadrons, but even squadrons. And the young pilots were generally thought that it was better to direct it to the more promising survivability fighter-attack aircraft of the Tank Design Bureau.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Yes, even near Stalingrad they could not do what they wanted in the air - the air bridge was covered.
    This is a big mistake. In fact, even near Stalingrad, even on the local section of the front of the Air Force of the Red Army, they could not organize a powerful air umbrella. Remember how mostly German transporters flew into the boiler and back? WITHOUT ESCORT ALONE !!! This is how to understand something in general? Effective counteraction to enemy aircraft ??? And the main losses of He-111T were generally suffered on the ground from tank breakthroughs ...

    Quote: Aspeed
    That is, he is not that he is not afraid of one-on-one messers, he is absolutely sure that he should, he simply had to give it to him. don't you think this is significant?
    The level of Kozhemyako's flying skills is much higher than the average level of Soviet pilots of that period ... The Germans repeatedly describe cases when on several "pieces" in 43-44. without an escort (!!!), they fought off attacks that were many times superior to Soviet fighters.

    Quote: Aspeed
    All these beautiful show-offs and stories about swift attacks from above are conversations from a series of hunting tales.
    This is from the section on how to effectively complete a combat mission. How at one time for several attacks in each to bring down an enemy aircraft (for example, those who got into a defensive circle).

    Quote: Aspeed
    The task is simple - to prevent striking at our targets or to provide our bombers / attack aircraft with the conditions for working on enemy targets.
    Again, there are different types of tasks: there is free hunting, i.e. the destruction of any enemy aircraft in the air, but there are cover operations. These are two big differences.

    And yet - the speed and density of the German bombers were basically enough to complete the tasks.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Here are three nines of Pe-2, hung with bombs at the most, I can’t, and they are covered by eight yaks, zoned in height and tasks - and come on, invent your own "falcon attacks". Try it.

    There are a number of unknowns in this task that both sides should see (I do not introduce the factor of flight mastery). Indicate them so that I can answer in a qualified manner:
    1). The size of the attacking group of Messers (or Fokkers.) And the height of the approach.
    2). The height at which the battle order of Soviet aircraft is built.
    3). The area where the clash takes place, its remoteness in one direction or another from the front line.
    4). Weather over the site of the planned battle.
    5). To the target or from the target is the Soviet air group.
  20. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 5 March 2016 22: 52
    Quote: Aspeed
    Heavy high-altitude escort fighter. Speedy, distant, heavy.
    I will answer with one sentence - If it were a long-range high-altitude fighter, then there would be no catastrophe of the Swiss raids.

    Quote: Aspeed
    There were no special squadrons for the young pilots, and the units were armed with the same aircraft
    There were training squadrons in the frontline, do not confuse the Luftwaffe with the Red Army Air Force. And with the 2 floor of 43 it was quite so that one squadron was on Me, the other on PV.

    Quote: Aspeed
    The result is known - 6 army was starving.
    When the Germans (more precisely Goering and Co.) soberly assessed the possibilities and adequately concentrated their forces - everything was ok - see Demyansk. When the torn uniforms on the chest, proving that everything will be fine, is the result of Stalingrad. The strength of the opposition of the Soviet Air Force is approximately equal ...

    Quote: Aspeed
    The level of flying skills Kozhemyako - the average Soviet pilot. On such as he pulled the war.
    He survived the war. This alone proves that he flew very professionally and was of a good level in the flight skills class.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Yeah, and even in Rudel shot ISa single shots
    He spoke only about Soviet light and medium tanks.

    Quote: Aspeed
    But for the Luftwaffe in 44, there was nothing left but a free hunt. They were no longer able to carry out any other tasks efficiently, only to try to catch them on a hunt when I called out.
    The last surprising, even tactical, namely STRATEGIC VICTORY of the Luftwaffe in the East is the Poltava operation, read. Summer 1944. And so - 3 \ 4 forces since the summer of 44 of the year at the backlashes have been concentrated against the deployed strategic air attack of the Anglo-Saxons. Look at the losses of the strategic Allied bombers in Europe and be horrified .. and yes, they didn’t do any backlash, because they were incapable ...

    Quote: Aspeed

    1) 8 fighters, equal forces.
    2) Pe-2 at an altitude of 2000 meters, covering Yaki - layered in height from 2500 to 3500 meters
    3) 10 km behind the front line, the target is 25 km from the front line of the railway station
    4) Perfect, not a cloud.
    5) To the goal.

    Well, let's get started. The forces are not equal, you have more aircraft on 27, but that's nothing.
    You are the commander of a Soviet officer (as part of a group or at headquarters - choose). I am the commander of the German officer (no matter where - in the air group or in the guidance group from the ground).
    If you say that Yaki, then suppose you have Yak-7, 1943 year. Well, or choose what you like.
    You did not indicate the type of fighter in my group. I choose 4 Me and 4 Foki, if you do not mind. You can specify otherwise.
    While we saw your armada on the radar and confirmed by observers of long-range ground reconnaissance (the Germans had this in the East if that), we got up. You do not have field radars (and there will not be an entire war, only Lendlizovskie air defense in Moscow). You are going to the front line while we are waiting for you. What are your next steps? Can you return to the base and save your life?
  21. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 6 March 2016 00: 25
    Quote: Aspeed
    Poltava was taken back in September 43 of the year.

    Well, how can this be so?!? A person seems to be reasonably competent about aviation in the Great Patriotic War and does not know about the Luftwaffe raids on the Poltava airfield, as a result of which the American shuttle raids of strategic bombers STOPED?! ???? You probably don’t even know about shuttle raids ... But it happens, after all they didn’t write about it in the Soviet books, because how to write, because the shameful page and every Soviet person knows that air pilots captured the air supremacy in the battles over the Kuban in the spring of 43 of the year, and here already the summer of 44, and even before the allies, they were completely, uncomfortable.

    Quote: Aspeed
    And then - I seem to know who I'm dealing with. You are the same stupid troll who argued that the 12,7 mm machine gun is the best air weapon
    Firstly - do not be rude, but I communicate correctly. Secondly - you’re clearly mistaken, this is the first time I’ve been on a forum and certainly not a fan of the American type of air weapons. At least in air combat any cannon is better than a machine gun, which, for example, was also proved by the experience of confronting Mig and Saber in Korea (in the case with equal pilot training).

    The P-47 was neither escorting nor distant, unfortunately for American pilots. Just Mustangs were missing. The question of who copied whom - P-47 Foku or vice versa - is debatable. Perhaps a line of independent development.

    I will not argue, there were field radars in the backlash in the East, I can prove it without problems, of course there was no such a dense network as in Europe, but they were used. About the radar of the USSR, let's not, it's ridiculous. Read better about the organization of domestic air defense in the war.

    I understand that you do not want to participate in the military-historical modeling of the confrontation and shamefully "merge"? So we write it down in the combat log - "A Soviet air group approaching from the enemy's side of up to 35 vehicles with ideal visibility, only seeing a raised air interception group at heights, not taking a fight and not reaching the front line, suddenly turned on the opposite course, pouring bombs on its own troops." WE SUPPOSE THAT THE COMMAND OF THE SOVIET AVIATION UNIT WILL BE PUNISHED IN THE APPROPRIATE MANNER. Do you recognize? Or maybe we’ll try to calculate the multi-way nevertheless in order to understand the features of the Luftwaffe air battle? I give you a choice of options! and I - at your choice - have 4,5 times fewer cars, what are you afraid of ?! Choose any period and any configuration of my air group except the fall of the 44 spring of 45! (although you can take them, but then your task will be complicated because the battles will already be in Europe)
  22. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 7 March 2016 02: 00
    Quote: Aspeed
    Is partisan night raid on Poltava a Luftwaffe strategic operation?

    This is precisely a strategic operation that has given a specific STRATEGIC result - the end of the trans-European "shuttle raids" of the B-17x. The Soviet Air Force did nothing of the kind even in '44.

    Quote: Aspeed
    there the speed of the P-47 is about 680 km per hour, even in earlier versions, and the PV-190 barely pulls 600 km per hour.

    I will not delve into the characteristics, but it is well known that Fw190 in most types was not a high-altitude interceptor, but even the difference you indicated is quite tolerable. And a little fact - against aircraft of the allies of KB Kurt Tank, aircraft such as Fw-190D-9 and Ta-152 were created in the middle of the war, which easily fought with almost any similar machine.

    Quote: Aspeed
    R-47 went into production in the 1941 year, when there was no need for any attack aircraft.
    The need for some kind of universal aircraft - non-escort fighter-attack aircraft was revealed by the Spanish War, the experience of which the Yankees studied well.
    The reason for the use of "Thunderbolts" in Europe, first of all, is that their range for the Pacific TVD did not fit at all, in Europe the distance is still shorter.

    Quote: Aspeed
    The only funny thing is your dense ignorance of Soviet radars.
    You are not reading carefully. I didn’t say I don’t know about Soviet radar, I said it’s funny. Factors 2: firstly, quality, especially in comparison with German and English, do you seriously think that the "sound trap" and its heirs were good at determining the target by sound bearing?

    Then it’s just a question, and if everything was so openwork, why did Stalin almost beg Churchill, and then Roosevelt to send him radars? and it was western radars that were considered the best?

    And the second is a scanty amount, which was additionally superimposed by the factor of destruction of installations located on the border at the beginning of the war. As I already said, the USSR's radars were used mainly in the air defense of Moscow and Leningrad, even in the "Victory arsenal" Gorky was NOT ENOUGH, but you say ...

    And yet - for the whole war, even after receiving parts from England and the USA, the USSR produced about 600 radars, while the Reich riveted about 4000 "Würzburgs" alone. where they were, then of such quality and size that the pilots just took them off !?

    So you don’t want to return to the base? Are you afraid of the NKVD? laughing
    summer 43, you have 8 Yak-7 as I understand it, I have 4 МE109G and Fw190.
    I'll just show you how the Luftwaffe worked.
    Also clarify your order of battle before approaching the front line - which bombers are used? traditionally troikas in trapezoidal formation on the same echelon or a primitive usual "swarm"? where and how are the "hawks" located?
    When an approach is discovered, my fighters are rapidly gaining height, trying to climb higher; the nearest free hunting patrol couple (constantly on duty near the front line) was instructed to follow the enemy group with an indication of its approximate route and altitude (someone will fly in, someone will not fly in, it’s not known, but this will not hurt).
  23. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 9 March 2016 21: 26
    Quote: Aspeed
    Year of release in a series of dora and that you remind? Which P-47 opposed them?
    But the main thing is not even that - it’s obvious to you even now that the P47 is a high-altitude escort fighter?

    Yeah, who proved to be ineffective in battles in this capacity back in 1943 and since then was used mainly as an attack aircraft.
    At the same time, the P-47 is one of the main universal fighters on the European theater of war, even in the 45 year. Moreover, it was considered the most protected and powerful among fighters of both the USA and England.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Is FV-190 still not a high-altitude fighter? Well, why did you say that?

    I have never claimed that Fock was a high-altitude interceptor; I just said that vertical fighting is the norm for backlash. Do not misinterpret.

    Quote: Aspeed
    There are no descentless attack aircraft. Thunder, for example, at low altitudes is simply a victim for any flying Me-109 or PV-190.
    Well, yes, yes, but the problem is that it successfully refutes the combat use of Fw190, and P47. And another problem, all fighters in Western Europe were engaged against strategic bombers, and at low altitudes, the troops were mainly covered by anti-aircraft artillery.

    Quote: Aspeed
    10 radar was enough for all of Moscow’s air defenses, with a margin and overlapping zones. Domestic, who stood at the post in December 1941 year.
    I think I’ve already said everything about radars, about their quality, about the fact that they weren’t enough even to effectively cover cities other than Moscow (in the 43 year, even Gorky leveled the ground, not to mention a number of other cities deep behind the front line - and this not air supremacy?).

    Quote: Aspeed
    And by whom and where were they "considered the best" there?
    I do not want to get involved in a non-thematic debate. In response to your words that Soviet radars were the coolest in the world, while completely ignoring my arguments, I will simply give one fact: captured German radars and ultra-long-range communications stations were actively used in the USSR until 1970x. And it is not necessary to talk about the successful integrated interaction of the field squadrons of the Soviet front-line aviation with the radar.

    Quote: Aspeed
    the Air Force’s linear and dive bombers NEVER used a swarm, ONLY low-speed gulls and I-16 worked in the 41 year.
    I have personally read descriptions of German pilots who spoke of the use of the "swarm" by apparently poorly trained regiments of fighters and light bombers even in 1944.

    By the way, do you even know that your fighters in 1943 should still work in three-piece links, and not in four-four in German style? (So ​​in the Soviet Air Force 43, only a few guards regiments worked)

    So, radars and ground reconnaissance groups have found your group far beyond the front line.
    High-altitude scouts Fw189 and Ju-88 coordinate the course and accompany your group at a distance.
    Pairs on a free hunt gather to the invasion zone, like antibodies in the human body to invading viruses.
    My sector cover fighters climb higher and higher.
    A small but good strike group - 6-9 He111 rises at the far airfield at the cover of 4 Me109, until then - I won't tell you, there will be a little surprise.
  24. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 10 March 2016 23: 20
    Precisely because the P-47 failed as a long-range high-altitude escort fighter and Mustangs were requested.

    Why - at least the Schweinfurt and Nuremberg raids will give you an answer.

    The quantitative prevalence of the P-47 in the European theater of operations in 1943 does not mean at all that it was a good plane, just some were even worse, while others were not in decent quantities. As soon as the allies had such, from the summer of 44 they switched mainly to "work on the ground."

    Moreover, it is Mustang - type B, then D is considered to be the very aircraft that made it possible to carry out a SUCCESSFUL strategic air attack on the Reich. R-47 is not considered such an aircraft.

    Quote: Aspeed
    For self-education, quotes for you, from the same instruction. On the 1943 year, following the results of the battles of the 42 year.

    I will not even enter other documents. You do not understand that you yourself are testifying against yourself. You must understand that the RECOMMENDATION TO INTRODUCE the battle formation "para-link" instead of "troika" means that this is a TACTICAL NEWS? and what was used by literally several guards regiments, only gradually spreading to the entire USSR Air Force?

    I emphasize again - I describe LUTFWAFFE STANDARD ACTION PRACTICENo fantasies. And for you, as a fan of the Soviet Air Force, EVERYTHING AFTER 70 YEARS, the banal principles of the backlash action turn out to be NEW.

    Quote: Aspeed
    what kind of "light bombers" were in service with the Air Force in 44?
    In general, the Germans classified the Pe-2 in 43-45. precisely as a light bomber (in order to distinguish them from heavy / horizontal bombers, including the Lendleut Marauders and Mitchels), so I believe that when describing the "swarm" in 44 by German pilots, they meant exactly "pawns". Or is the Pe-2 light-weight heavy roots a discovery for you too?

    I am not saying anywhere that the P-47 was an excellent attack aircraft (there was only one ultra-precise mass attack aircraft - the Ju87). But the Thunderbolt was an excellent SLOW attack aircraft (like the Fw190). Soviet attack aircraft IL2 and even more so the German Ju87 were not escortless.

    About radars, I already answered everything, I’m no longer ready to repeat myself.
    If everything was so openwork with Soviet radars and there were enough of them everywhere, then how was Gorky and other cities-centers for the production of armaments bombed by backlashes EXACTLY IN STRATEGIC OPERATIONS even of the 1943 of the year?

    Lutfwaffe had a law: anti-aircraft guns provide cover over the front and over important objects. In the zones between them and behind the front, fighters are hunting - so as not to interfere with each other.

    The Soviet Air Force did not think of this 3 year - and during the cover of cities, their own anti-aircraft guns were often fired anywhere, knocking down or damaging their own fighters, trying to hunt for bombers in the night.

    Once again I ask you to clearly describe your order of battle - where and in what forms the formation of the "hawks" and what formation the bombers are in. I have everything just at the top of the four Me, just below the four Fock.
  25. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 14 March 2016 14: 52
    Quote: Aspeed
    An aircraft that is simply unable to accurately hit ground targets, you consider an excellent "escortless attack aircraft", but at the same time you yourself understand that it could not be an "attack aircraft", because it couldn’t hit anything on the ground.
    Then comes Ii-2, too, "I couldn't get a damn thing into anything" in your opinion? To make it clearer, I will outline the situation using the example of the P-38: in the Pacific theater of operations, he turned out to be one of the best fighters in terms of efficiency (for the 2nd half of 42 - 1st half of 43, for sure), while in the European theater of operations he did not become famous as an escort. but it turned out to be an effective multi-purpose vehicle, a kind of American analogue of the Mosquito.

    Quote: Aspeed
    wonderful German radars cover the entire space from Berlin to Vladivostok
    This is unnecessary, it was enough from the Crimea to Finland. request If you doubt the effectiveness of the German air defense, built specifically on the radar, then try to answer your question: why did the Soviet Air Force not carry out ANY strategic air operation against the Reich?
    While there were airplanes and pilots, there were a number of attempts, but consistently unsuccessful.

    Quote: Aspeed
    the USSR at that time simply did not have high-altitude and night air defense fighters did not visit you?
    If anything, the Red Army Air Force had high-altitude night fighters even in the 41 year (MiG-3 they were called). In 42 and 43. they were both they and other types of aircraft, including land lease (especially Spitfire). It’s another matter that neither the interaction of all services nor the proper training of pilots was achieved by the Soviet command. Or, in 44, there were no nightlights? and on the Poltava field the Germans smashed as they wanted both Soviet and American cars. And if the Soviet Air Force was so effective, then why the Reich Air Force in both 43 and 44. were able to carry out strategic operations in the East, while in the West European and Mediterranean theater of operations for some reason they didn’t succeed in this from the 1941 of the year?

    Quote: Aspeed
    Or do you seriously prove that the German anti-aircraft guns did not mistakenly shoot down German planes, just as the Soviet ones also mistakenly shot down the Soviet ones?
    The problem is that the Soviet command just did not think of the most banal basics for most of the Second World War. And the effectiveness of Soviet anti-aircraft gunners - I just keep quiet, it's ridiculous. Even the pilots of weak "Stuks" were not particularly afraid of their fire even during the day, while even pilots-night lights of heavy backlash bombers were afraid to fly against the air defense forces of the Western Alliance.

    Quote: Aspeed
    I’m shocking you now - there is still a very widespread opinion in the USA that, as an escort, the R-47 was BETTER than the Mustang. That's just Mustang cost 2 times cheaper
    Well, firstly at 35%, and not at 2 times. Secondly, how can a fighter having 2 times shorter range, having worse visibility from the cockpit and made of more primitive materials at a more expensive price turn out to be the best escort? (the range of 1480 km. at P-47 versus just amazing 3320 km at P-51)
  26. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 14 March 2016 22: 48
    If you want an adequate dialogue, remove rudeness, or simply stop communication.

    And let's figure out the accompanying factors, otherwise it makes no sense to write 2-3 huge posts; when we come to a mutual understanding of the situation, then we will continue our "team game".

    Quote: Aspeed
    Gallay did not use the P-47 as an escort high-altitude fighter. And in the front combat units they were not.
    But do you know where they were? In air defense

    Those. if something does not fit into the theory you are defending, then you no longer trust a professional with a capital letter, a test pilot who is personally familiar with many types of aircraft, and not some Anglo-Saxon, but your own, Soviet?

    In fact, the "Thunder" in the USSR were in the assault naval squadrons, so, in general, there is no question of any altitude.

    Quote: Aspeed
    I won’t ask by what magical signs the French distinguished an assault focus from a fighter one in the air, but it’s terribly curious - how does the fact you cited, even if it is true, prove that the FV-190 pilots were trained less?

    It's simple - the French pilots themselves said, according to the combat formation and in height - fighters at the top by fours, attack aircraft at low or medium altitudes in thick formations. If such a simple fact is unknown to you, this does not speak in favor of your competence.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Oh, and by the way, Soviet pilots also said that the former bombers transplanted from the Yu-87 turned out to be more dangerous opponents than pure fighters on the PV-190.

    I met the opposite opinion, expressed by the German aces on the situation of 44-45, when all the bomber pilots were transferred to protect the Reich - that the bomber pilot had to be retrained for a long time for fighter combat, otherwise it was quickly shot down, because he was used to slow maneuvering with large aircraft and other tactics.

    Quote: Aspeed
    How durable, but completely unarmored, Thunderbolt ???
    Oh well, completely unarmored? laughing That is why the Germans considered the P-47 the most "unkillable" of all American fighters, moreover, both anti-aircraft gunners and fighters. And 8x12,7 mm machine guns are terrifying power precisely when attacking ground columns, but in air combat it is still better than a cannon.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Soviet bombers calmly and without fuss bombed Berlin, starting from 41 of the year -
    Hmm, I won’t even comment. There were only a few purely propaganda attempts to bombard Berlin, only with scanty results and heavy losses, which stopped almost immediately. In fact, only the first raid was successful, because Reich air defense simply did not expect a strike from the east.
  27. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 16 March 2016 14: 53
    Quote: Aspeed
    What Gallay said fits perfectly - and not into my theory, but into reality

    Which means that your theory is fantasy, and the opinion of the professional Soviet pilot Gallay is an argument.

    Quote: Aspeed
    In general, the Thunder in the USSR was primarily in the air defense, which does not negate the fact that several dozen were transferred to the sailors and used by them as drums. As if one does not exclude the second.

    Which does not mean that they were the best long-range fighter of high-altitude escort, on which you insisted.

    Quote: Aspeed
    there just fighters flew at low altitude and in dense groups. And the French could not know this, so it seems that again you tell tales. A reference to how the French described this result?

    So they flew in 44-45. it’s not fighters, but Fw190 in the variant of an attack aircraft or a fighter that carried out assault missions, moreover with inexperienced pilots. Which the Frenchmen filled in numerous times (again, the question is exactly how many, because they had extremely liberal crediting of victories - there was a concrete indication of the Soviet command to this).

    Quote: Aspeed
    Or is there simply nothing for you to explain a strange fact - after fairy tales about German superradars blocking everything from the Baltic to Black, it’s impossible to explain how then Soviet bombers flew to bomb Berlin, thousands of kilometers over enemy territory?
    In the summer of 1941, the Luftwaffe command did not wait (and reasonably) for Soviet strategic bombing raids on the main territory of the Reich.
    Firstly, due to the fact that it knew (and it actually happened) that the bulk of the distant bombers would be used by the Soviet Air Force in the needs of front-line cover and no more where it would die.
    Secondly, the air defense squadrons, which were planned for cover, simply lacked strength, because they were not numerous and were involved in daytime operations, both for free hunting and escort, and even in assault. And after the first days when the Soviet Air Force suffered terrible losses, the Luftwaffe relaxed and decided that everything, in general, should not be expected from the Soviets of long-range bombs. And here again, and again ...

    The Reich air defense system was deployed in the summer of 41 only against England, and even then it was far from full capacity, but was only being formed. When the backlash leadership realized that it was the USSR that raided Berlin, it ordered to strengthen both anti-aircraft and radar cover + raised night squadrons of night fighters, and everything, the raids quickly stopped. And more than the strategic bombing operations, the Soviet Air Force did not undertake the entire war.

    I propose not to argue because of each particular, because we are not studying the technical task for the invention, but to return to discussing the tactical situation in the air, without rudeness (note, I am conducting the dialogue very correctly, you continue to behave quite unbound; provoking and being rude towards your opponent does not at all indicate your competence). It’s just that for once the WWII site has an understanding of the Second World Man in aviation and I personally will be offended if you show inadequacy and the dialogue does not work out.
  28. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 17 March 2016 02: 25
    Quote: Aspeed
    Show FACTS testifying to the fact that the main US long-range escort fighter P-47 Thunderbolt was unsuitable for the role of a long-range escort fighter.
    He praised him as a fighter. The P-47 was suitable as an escort fighter, I said that the P-51, especially the Type D, was much better. At the same time, with a range with hanging tanks, you have something out there, you will have to dig, my range is indicated exactly without the DPB for the Mustang D. I will say more - P-47 even the Navy type with a very long range did not even show itself in the Pacific Ocean. At the same time, the P-47 N yes, had a very large combat radius, it is 1900 km., But it is with hanging tanks.

    The new P-47 flashlight was received only starting with the modification of the D-5, i.e. the summer of 43 is technologically advanced, and since the fall of 43 is in the troops in Europe.

    And another fact: the P-47 is like a high-altitude worker - for a long time he had a problem with the pressurization system in additional gas tanks, so he had difficulties at high altitudes in Europe.

    In general, the situation with him is the same as with the P-38 - a magnificent fighter over the Pacific Ocean in 42-44. and no fighter over Europe in the 43-45 years, transferred mainly to assault missions.

    In 1943, due to the insufficient range of the P-47 over Europe, it was not recognized as very good, and from 1944, when the Mustangs began to arrive in an increasing number, gradually began to be transferred to the role of attack aircraft or free hunter, but not a long-range escort.

    Regarding that the P-47 was unusable as an attack aircraft, here are the official figures: "The P-47 fighter-bombers destroyed 86000 wagons, 9000 locomotives, 6000 tanks and 68000 other vehicles." It is clear that it is not a fact that all this was in real life, but at least a lot.

    Why did the P-1943 fail in 47? Yes, because strategic bombers formations were thrown (the Americans recall in 42-43 they bombarded during the day, unlike the British, who flew against the Reich industry with 1941 only at night) due to insufficient range and the Germans specially waited for this moment, attacking relatively defenseless bombers, repeatedly organizing massacres. With the advent and use of P-51 and P-38 as escorts, the situation became much better and the Germans did not succeed in repeating 43.

    But you do not seem to know one fact that speaks in favor of your theory. The fact is that more than half of all USSAF aces over Europe flew exactly on the P-47, often continuing to do this until the end of the war. All other aircraft piloted by American aces account for less than half. But this situation is determined by two factors: 1. They basically began to fight with the 1943 of the year, and therefore fell in love with the P-47, the former main fighter in Europe. 2.P-47, as I said, was the most unkillable among American fighters, equally suitable for escorts and for free hunting.

    Regarding the armor, I specifically clarified it again for you - and so, the aircraft is not just overly heavy, and accordingly it is different as an attack aircraft — the cockpit armor protection, the armor protection on the engine, and the incredible structural strength as such, which allowed pilots to survive even during very hard landings.

    By the way, about the additional tanks - the Thunderbolts were structurally provided for them only starting from the D series.

    And in favor of Thunder as an attack aircraft: he could take bombs like Pe-2 - up to 1100 kg (more precisely, even more, when overloaded, Pe-2 could take up to 1000 kg of bombs). As the saying goes, feel the difference - the American fighter is superior to the main Soviet dive in bomb load, and at the same time, he allegedly worked poorly on the ground ?!
  29. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 17 March 2016 16: 59
    Quote: Aspeed
    On the Eastern Front, Thunder was only suitable for carrying mail.
    So he was bad that they answered the USSR’s requests to give him a bit more Lendlisis - we won’t put an end to it.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Another question is that the P-51 is a more versatile machine, it may try to portray something below, while the Thunder on small ones is just a log.
    No, just Mustang is a superesortnik. But in Korea they began to use it as an attack aircraft, and in general were not particularly pleased, and so they even tried to resume the production of Thunderbolts and take the remaining cars and use them!

    And you say - it’s bad at low altitudes ... The fact is that the Mustang is a much more unstable car, and with massive shelling from the ground, everything that only shoots is important.

    Quote: Aspeed
    . Work on small goals - ships,

    No, here it is precisely in the factor of pilot training and banal luck. And the small ships in the Pacific .. hmm, recall the size of Yamato with Musashi?

    Quote: Aspeed
    . But Lightning was much better for attack.

    But for some reason Thunderbolt is considered the best stormtrooper in terms of targets destroyed and endurance, immunity! Reservation and structural stability at Laiting were worse, although it could be pulled home on one engine, and the gondola arrangement of weapons allowed the installation of even very large caliber guns (37mm for example).

    In general, the Western alliance did an excellent job without a specialized attack aircraft and dive bomber, oddly enough for our worldview, and brought the Luftwaffe out of the skies of Europe whatever one may say (which our Air Force could not do until the Germans themselves were "blown away" under the pressure of the Anglo-Saxon air offensive) ...

    In fact, the Germans during 1943 also abandoned special "tank destroyers" and Ju-87 dive bombers, and generally held out normally for another year. Bypassing the enemy's numerical pressure with the actual ersatz attack aircraft Fw-190 (well, their assault subtypes F and G).

    Quote: Aspeed
    You read at least an interview with Punev, who just flew on Pe-2. He clearly describes why the Pe-2 laid bombs accurately and not a single fighter could repeat this.

    I don’t remember that, but I suppose that it was like an ordinary dive bomber, in fact, thanks to the dive angle. And right off the bat I ask a counter question - do you know that basically (in their basic, poorly trained mass) Soviet "pawns" did not bomb from a dive, eh? tough twist of the problem, right? How do you rate bombardment from the horizontal in 80% of all sorties, even in the second half of the war? apparently from great intelligence and the highest training ... For example, do you imagine the German Ju-87 attacking from the horizontal?

    We get to the tactical situation. Do you want to change the type of fighter? because you are much inferior and few of yours will return home ... now, if they took the P-39 Aerocobra, I would have problems. Or at least change the battle order of the bombers? although you have a classic Soviet model, that’s how they flew, such a group ...

    Your group will certainly bomb the station, it seems like you have designated 10 km of the entire distance from the front, I can hardly do more than one attack, and even that. But then ...
  30. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 18 March 2016 23: 33
    Quote: Aspeed
    Unlike the same silt that flew in, stood over the target, and hollowed it to green, left - and the next group of silts went right there.

    They were shot down most of all ... One of the most shot down aircraft of the Second World War ... Their pilots were truly suicide bombers, and their shooters (after the reverse shooter appeared on IL-2) were suicide bombers ...

    Now about the tactical situation.

    Remember, you yourself wrote that:
    Quote: Aspeed
    2) Pe-2 at an altitude of 2000 meters, covering Yaki - layered in height from 2500 to 3500 meters
    3) 10 km behind the front line, the target is 25 km from the front line of the railway station
    4) The weather is perfect, not a cloud.

    Ideal weather with early detection and at low altitude of your group - this is called the Arctic fox crept unnoticed. Remember, I wrote about the two frontiers of air defense - a linear front and a heap over the target - the standard scheme of German air defense on the Eastern Front?

    Quote: Aspeed
    Here rushing three nines Pe-2, hung with bombs at the most I can’t, and cover them zashelonnuyu in height and tasks eight yaks - and come on, invent your "falcon attacks".

    As it is familiar, everything is in the classic clichés of Soviet military art and communist propaganda. "I can't do anything with bombs", and even on an external sling! - means that the Pe-2 will explode even from a close hit of an anti-aircraft shell.
    Moreover, with such a load, even the official cruising speed of the Pe-2 is 360 km \ h. Afterburner systems like Pe-2 didn’t. That allegedly about 400 km \ h is said - it is not known with what bombs; it’s more realistic to say that with such an overload, the Pe-2 speed, and even when trying to maintain a tight formation, is 300-320 km \ h.

    Well, a dive attack with such a bomb load on the Pe-2 is simply IMPOSSIBLE due to the structural defectiveness of the aircraft (only possible with a load of 400 kg. And with bombs only on the external load). Therefore, except for bombing from the horizontal, your group has no option ...

    So, all of the above means that when passing the front line of air defense - at a low altitude, with a simple tightly compressed formation, with ideal visibility - losses from anti-aircraft artillery fire are simply terrible, because there is a "puff pie" there (various anti-aircraft guns from 20mm to 88mm) ...

    The only plus point for your group is that the German frontline defense line is stretched out on the Eastern Front and therefore does not mean a very large concentration of ZA barrels per km of front.

    Total, your group loses at least 3 bombers downed and several cars (say 5) are damaged and begin to lose speed (in my opinion, at least with such initial data). What are your actions regarding damaged bombers?

    My fighters dispersed in 2 sides of your group in pairs one above the other at altitudes of 5-6 km. and get ready for an attack, staying away from your formation, waiting for when the ZA will finish working out. Thus, you fell into a fire environment: behind you is the front line of air defense, in front of the air defense of the target, and on the sides are my fighters.

    My high-altitude scout flies near the horizon, reporting the courses and heights of groups of combatants; ground headquarters coordinates a combat operation involving ground-based air defense, radar, spotter aircraft and fighters. The accompanying group goes to the place of the alleged battle. Free hunting pairs are being pulled up.

    Do you agree and what are your actions? Would you like to ask for help from your own or return home, dropping bombs earlier, "mistakenly bombing" on an allegedly inaccurately found target?
  31. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 19 March 2016 15: 01
    Unfortunately, no substantive answer.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Pe-2 front air defense has long passed, using anti-aircraft maneuver :)
    At low altitude in perfect weather? I already wrote above why there will be losses. Or do you really think that you will pass the front line without loss, while walking at low speed in a thick formation?!?

    Quote: Aspeed
    fabulous high-rise spotters, who were not there either,
    Did not have ? I even get tired of listing their types - Fw189, Ju88, Do215, Ju-188 ...
  32. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 21 March 2016 09: 17
    Quote: Aspeed
    I inform you

    According to the rules of the Russian language, one should write "you"; using a treatment with a small letter, you demonstrate disrespect for the interlocutor, I thought that you had it by accident. but as it turned out - constantly, so alaverds.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Front-line air defense does not represent an even line of 88-mm cannons standing close to each other in six rows from the Black Sea to the Baltic.

    Examples of this can rarely be found even in the stationary air defense of the "Old Reich", of course, on the Eastern Front, this was not even close, and I am not talking about this anywhere.
    But don't you think that for your group, slowly walking at a low altitude in a dense group, not even a "puff pie" will suffice, but a single "terrible 88mm" anti-aircraft gun? with its rate of fire up to 20 rds / min., with an excellent guidance system using an anti-aircraft fire control device, with the Ubertransunger 37 data transmission system, is it possible even without pairing with a distant radar (for the Eastern Front and the front line)?

    About the effectiveness of German front-line air defense, without even taking of course the allegedly controversial achievements on the Eastern Front, for example, the anti-aircraft regiment of Colonel Walter von Hippel, who defended the pontoon crossings over the Meuse in one day on May 14 on 1940 of the year, shot down and damaged 150 aircraft of the Western Allies.

    Therefore, I consider the losses from front-line air defense in 3 downed and 5 damaged to be quite real and MINIMUM, because your statements that your group allegedly just went through the front line without losses, just on an anti-aircraft maneuver are ridiculous.

    Quote: Aspeed
    At least the fact that the detection range under ideal target conditions is of the order of 3-4 kilometers,
    I repeat again. your group acts abruptly, as usual. The Germans, on the other hand, fought with the SYSTEM, a complex, this is especially evident in the actions of aviation and tank troops. I already mentioned about ground reconnaissance groups, including and behind the front line, air reconnaissance spotters were also perfectly used precisely for coordinating air combat (which the Red Army Air Force apparently did not think of) + radar early warning and short-range escort.
    This means that they didn’t let your group out of sight, and with excellent radio communication between all the units, my attack groups were banal to yours, German pilots simply didn’t even need to fumble through the sky, looking for Soviet planes, they clearly knew in what square and at what height is the enemy. Those. the invasion group is coordinated and led by three systems - ground data + radar data + aerial reconnaissance data. This is certainly not commonplace, but evidence of a qualitatively different way of fighting the Luftovaff than the Red Army Air Force. Hope so clear?

    Pay attention to the marks of victories specifically over the planes of a single 88. East front, just the end of 42-beginning of 43.
  33. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 21 March 2016 16: 25
    Quote: Aspeed
    They could not do this either technically, due to a lack of technical ability, nor organizationally, or simply because of a VERY small amount.

    Technically, they did this without question. Quantity - yes, there were few of them. But I’m not saying that EVERY case of an invasion of a group of bombers an escort aircraft was expelled, or that, when reconnaissance, it always found such a group and became a marker aircraft. I say that in our case this happens to show exactly the interaction of all systems.

    Quote: Aspeed
    And accordingly, the data that I presented to you is IDEAL for the Germans. And they found it as quickly as possible, and managed to get to the interception line - they turned out to be close by.
    Attack, what are we waiting for?
    Ideal - it is debatable here, for example, for dagger attacks of single fighters, which are just engaged in free hunting over the front line or near it, cloud cover is better. But for the complete destruction of your group - the weather is perfect.

    And I'm waiting for the anti-aircraft guns to split the group’s formation and create a herd of damaged vehicles behind.

    Quote: Aspeed
    that the Germans, instead of concentrated cover for key objects at the front or in the rear, will scatter single guns along the front hundreds of kilometers in the hope that "now they will fly, and we will crash unexpectedly!"
    Well, you read about it with the tankers. And no hundreds of kilometers of the front. Are we describing battles in the active sector, in the immediate rear of the front, with active logistics - or is your group going to bomb station Maloye Kukuyevo, where is the 1 German train and then in transit?

    By the way, besides the "eight-eight", the Germans had a lot of different beggars FOR - 57mm, 37mm, 20mm., Double, quad, etc. In ideal weather and at low altitude it all works for your group by the way.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Yes, look for the expense of 88-mm shells for one shot down too :)
    And you for comparison - look at the consumption of shells from Soviet anti-aircraft guns for one REALLY downed Luftwaffe aircraft. Be very surprised.

    And so, according to the recollections of the pilots of the "pawns" - the most terrible enemy - precisely the 88th anti-aircraft guns, in each sortie invariably collecting bloody tribute from bomb groups, and only then fighters, and only then any anti-aircraft trifle.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Tactically, the German pilots by 43 were not particularly smart, had no advantage over the Air Force combat regiments
    Yes, they didn’t differ at all, that even spring xnumx years over Hungary, for example, they shot down IL-2 simply in packs (up to 18% of the composition of the assault regiments !!!), while, oddly enough, even according to Soviet estimates, during this period and on this section of the front it was IL-2 that shot down more fighters, than anti-aircraft guns.

    That's about how it all happened - in the background, just the Pe-2 group passes the front line.
  34. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 21 March 2016 23: 39
    Quote: Aspeed
    FV-189 maximum speed 370 km / h, ceiling 7300 - tell us how he became a "high-altitude" corrector, and how did he manage to get to the interception line in time with such a low maximum speed and climb rate?

    Fw189 was not the best and was used forcibly, and 7 km is also a good height, isn't it?

    Especially for you climbed into the literature.
    We take at least Ju-88 - type B - a special high-altitude scout, who became the ancestor of Ju-188.
    Type D1 - high-altitude long-range reconnaissance with a range of 5000 km.
    Ju-88 H-1 is also a long-range reconnaissance version with a range of 4800 km.

    I’m glad - there were even Ju-88 R-2 - a night reconnaissance interceptor with an on-board radar FuG 220 SN-2 (these were of course used mainly in the West, but also in the East also covered the front from possible raids of serious night bombers - on Po-2 Of course, they did not pay attention).
    Ju-88 S-2 - a variant of the long-range high-speed reconnaissance bomber with a speed of 615 km \ h. at the heights of 8-10 km. Not so, huh?
    Ju-88 T-1 - long-range high-speed reconnaissance. Speed ​​to 640 km \ h.

    The Red Army Air Force doesn’t have any analogues at all, neither in speed, nor in equipment, nor in the presence of airborne radars? And you say - you wouldn’t have time, didn’t see, couldn’t detect, intercept and accompany. EVEN NIGHT monitoring of the air front space took place.

    It’s just too lazy to write about other types, it’s often even cooler there (for example, the high-speed high-speed reconnaissance observer Ju-188T - in general, the speed is up to 700 km / h, although this is already 1944).

    Quote: Aspeed
    About how German anti-aircraft guns work in air defense? Do tankers?

    About how "no 88s" were on the front lines, and how they heaped through Soviet tanks, being perhaps the most terrible anti-tank weapon of the Wehrmacht in 41-42.

    Quote: Aspeed
    Yeah, it works. Anti-aircraft guns - that's what they need. But where is it about the Luftwaffe tactics?
    Those. Do you acknowledge that your group was badly battered when crossing the front line?

    Quote: Aspeed
    And this speaks of the tactical advantage of the Luftwaffe? :) Thanks, laughed.
    Exactly ! Because having an adversary that is numerically superior not many times more, but multiple, often by an order of magnitude, they not only still flew, but also inflicted serious losses! Do you have any idea what would happen if in 1945 18% would have been the level of losses among the air forces of the Western Alliance, like the Soviet IL-2, when they stopped the crashes of the strategic bombers with 7% losses?

    So, how many cars in your opinion from your group follow the path of this Pe-2, shot down by an anti-aircraft gun just when approaching the front line?
  35. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 22 March 2016 19: 10
    Quote: Aspeed
    If Rama is a high-altitude spotter, and at a speed of 370 km per hour, he is also a fighter spotter (!) -

    Conducting reconnaissance and art-correction, he easily, having discovered an invasion group, could switch to its support. Once again emphasizing - this is not the best model, I have already indicated the best. But the Ju-88 S-2 was not even close to the USSR - accordingly, there was no adjustment to air combat! (unless the commander was not with the group or the battle did not go visibly over the NP). And among the Germans, the whole battle was tied to inter-structural interaction between air defense, fighter aircraft, radar, ground front-line and long-range air reconnaissance.

    Quote: Aspeed
    In general, part of the information on the computer, part on the shelves next to the table, and here it’s specially for you to climb into the depths of the bookcase. smile

    Quote: Aspeed
    In parallel, two options were issued specifically for reconnaissance over the Atlantic - Ju.88h-1 and H-2 ...

    Ju-88 was the main Luftwaffe bomber and reconnaissance, and these models were used for long-range reconnaissance] and coordination of combat interaction on all military operations.
    Specialized for long-range reconnaissance also produced:
    - Fw-200 (equipped with FuG-200 Hoentwal radar). And for example, 1 of them were shot down on the East Front in the 1941 year, 9 were shot down on the East Front. in 42, etc., which proves including their application here, and not just over the Atlantic.
    - Ju-290 (range 6200 km)

    And you never answered, how is it for example Do217 (560 km \ h speed, ceiling 9500 m) and not suitable as a high-altitude long-range reconnaissance?!?

    Quote: Aspeed
    Moreover, all of their equipment - ADDITIONAL CAMERAS - and not a word on any adjustment of fighters.

    Excuse me, but for coordination of actions in the battle area, what is especially needed for that time, except for developed radio communications? Airborne radars were, but not on all models (on night scouts were on many).

    About fighting and even just flying at night it’s better not to talk at all - because here the Red Army Air Force godlessly lost the Luftwaffe in almost everything.

    Quote: Aspeed
    True, not all - Ju-86 forgotten.
    He was not the best, and then what? You did not say why this Ju-188 is not suitable for this purpose?

    And here's another rare photo of a shot down "pawn". It seems to be just either autumn 42 - or spring 1943. This is how I mentally prepare you for the loss of your group. :)
  36. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 23 March 2016 00: 52
    Well, persuaded, there is simply no desire to argue on every point, suppose that IT HAPPENED IN A STRANGE IMPORTANCE that completely violated ALL the complex Luftwaffe interaction in this sector of the front. For example, the Soviet offensive in combination with a number of non-systemic factors.

    Suppose that the ground posts of reconnaissance aircraft, located behind the front line, were forced to abruptly relocate or were captured due to the many Soviet troops who arrived in the area of ​​attack, leaving the front sector unattended.

    Suppose, for some reason, the team of a lonely German terrestrial radar in this section of the front accidentally discovered a liter bottle of Ukrainian moonshine hidden in the 5 cellar and temporarily failed, drinks and no one else besides them understood this equipment, and early detection of an invasion group at least for 100-150 km did not work.

    Suppose that shortly before your visit to us, carrying out the scheduled flight, the high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft Ju-88 suddenly, soon after reaching the desired area, reported to the ground command post "Aufiderzein kamarady, I am going home! My engine sneezes in all modes, apparently the Russian is partisan again something mixed into the fuel! " - and again nobody saw your group. request And since there are few high-altitude scouts, while he rises from a distant airfield, until he reaches the sector, they have generally called, but time has been lost ...

    Suppose that your planes were discovered only when approaching the front line, but even then, small frontal anti-aircraft guns, from 88x to 20 millimeters, were already involved in repelling the Bolsheviks ground attacks, and it became corny to them to care for some planes that are clearly marching to the rear, not intending to strike at them, when exactly they are attacked by the mass of Soviet tanks and infantry.

    Thus, ideal conditions were created for your group and it still broke through without loss (which is surprising and is already included in the annals of your regiment!) Beyond the front line. lol As soon as they learned that you had passed the front without losses, at the command post of the regiment they began to pour out "People's Commissar's alcohol" into mugs.

    The only thing we managed to do was to raise into the air the duty units allocated for the air defense sector, and to pass the approximate invasion zone to the pairs of free hunters, but without radar and various intelligence we do not know exactly where they are, and we do not know exactly where your group is. .. Pilots cursing had to leave the already bottled, but unfinished cognac ... angry

    But nevertheless, having approximately calculated the target and the sector of location, our fighters nevertheless found the invasion group, and settled down on its sides (in each strike group, a pair of МE109G and Fw190A). Your bombers in a single wedge-shaped order with triples at the same height, but where exactly and in what order are the fighter cover relative to the combat order of the bombers?
  37. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 23 March 2016 19: 07
    In general, for your education, excuse me, you are clearly at odds with European and German sources, but focus on Russian literature. A corrector was a plane that was not capable of high-speed high-altitude reconnaissance. In the 1943, the Luftwaffe abandoned slow and not high spotters even on the Eastern Front due to high losses (although it used every kind of garbage in the 41-42, for example, in the assault units, it had even been removed from production and almost removed from the front units Hs-123) .

    It’s just that the bet on good maneuverability (like on the Fw-189), the strength of the structure and the large firing sectors have not justified itself, and the speed, altitude and rate of climb became the main factor in single cars.

    The emphasis for combat use was placed on universal high-speed vehicles, which showed excellent speed characteristics at various altitude ranges, which could combine the functions of a reconnaissance, artillery spotter and battle coordination machine, while successfully escaping the pursuit of most enemy fighters.

    For the successful fulfillment of all these functions, they needed (except for speed and excellent navigation equipment) excellent visibility, excellent multichannel radio communications, an automated radio direction finder and airborne radar, as well as a set of various photos and even movie cameras, including stereoscopic cameras.

    About Ju-188, by the way, even in VO there is an article:
    but we will not consider them, as I understand it, new horizons have opened up when you learned about German bombers at speeds up to 700 km / h. (Ju-188T)

    We will discuss at least Ju-88, about which there was also an article on VO:

    You say that they were easily shot down by Soviet fighters. Well - at a speed of 550 km \ h even at an altitude of 5000 m? Ju-88 is generally 610 km \ h. in 1943, we won’t talk about 640 km / h, because this is 44 year (by the way, the Ju-88 speed characteristics did not change much at medium and high altitudes - for example, the same type S on 6000 m gave 600 km / h, and on 8000 m - 610 km \ h).

    Well, it’s good that you know how the military order of the guards regiments of the Soviet Air Force was built. We are talking about ordinary IAPs, which often fly by three more at the beginning of the 43 year.

    I made so many concessions to you that the mention of the absence of an "air clearing group" (which became standard practice in the Soviet Air Force only in 1944) does not even deserve attention.

    It’s interesting, but what kind of miserable slander of the existing forces of the Luftwaffe do you mean at the 1 half of the 1943 year? by chance not those who fought over the Taman Peninsula, over Kharkov and over the Kursk-Oryol arc? lol

    You said a lot of empty words about the "near cover", but the exact altitude and the exact order of battle have not been painted. The only thing that I understood from your confused explanation is that on each side of the bombers there are 2 fighters next to them and 4 are on top.

    And one more simple question - how many aircraft we have equipped with not even high-quality, but just radio communications from the Red Army Air Force at the beginning of the 43 year? Well, so be it, we’ll agree that your regiment is one of the best at the front, and the vehicles are new, and the pilots are relatively trained, and the communication is at its best — well, let's say the Yankov radio sets. laughing
  38. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 24 March 2016 18: 56
    Quote: Aspeed
    And nowhere else spotters like FV-189 and were not used due to the lack of conditions - a ground front line.
    Are you completely apart? apparently you have grassy grass! wassat And so there was nothing else, the North African, Balkan, Western European theater of operations? and "Frames" were used there EVERYWHERE? even over France during anti-partisan actions against the "Macy"?
    even in VO there is an article about him!

    Once again - "frames" fought not only in the East, but also in Africa, and the Balkans, and even over France, and tried to use them in the air defense of Germany. It's just that since 1943, after the adoption of the new concept, they were withdrawn from the units of the first line to the anti-partisan struggle or transferred to the allies of the Reich (Hungarians, Romanians and Slovaks).

    By the way, to the question of the combat capability of the Red Army Air Force - a little unpleasant news for you, but in the Hungarian Air Force, the last "frames" managed to fight on the Eastern Front until the spring of 1945. I wonder where were your valiant Soviet fighters, who allegedly shot down high-speed bombers in batches and did not finish off such an easy target?

    In general, the record of one crew of Fw-189 - 1500 sorties! and one - 2000!

    You will probably be interested, but the Fw-189 showed itself in a VERY amazing role - it turned out to be the most formidable night hunter against the Po-2, which is probably so beloved by you, due to its excellent maneuverability, visibility, low speed and due to the fact that it felt good and near the ground. They put a radar, a high-precision radio altimeter, added weapons a little - and the "frames" not only turned out to be the enemy of the Soviet infantry, but also the main killer of the Soviet "night witches" (and battles at ultra-low altitudes are a lack of altitude for a parachute jump and therefore our girls pilots often did not even take a parachute with them).

    Figuratively speaking, when it became known that regiments of Soviet night light bombers were operating in this sector, several Fw-189s flew in, which flew out at night to hunt. The Wehrmacht and air defense units were instructed not to use anti-aircraft guns and searchlights, ground-based means detected and transmitted the direction of passage of the Po-2 group, and such quiet "night owls", already on duty in the air, sneaked up on the pilots who usually saw nothing (who were blinded by the sparks of their engine and drowned out the sound of their "coffee mill"), detecting them with a radar, and then visually (sometimes attacking while gliding). And you understand what you did with the poor Po-2 two 20mm cannons, which replaced the course machine guns of the Fw-189 in the "night hunter" version. Well, they really attacked like owls!

    What is most interesting, in the memoirs of the surviving Soviet "night lighthouses" I did not see any mention of this, which, in my opinion, indicates that our "light bombers" DIDN'T KNOW their most dangerous enemy AT ALL! Those. apparently those who saw the "Rama" attacking in the darkness could no longer tell anything more, and their partners apparently thought that they were shot down by anti-aircraft guns ... Some thought that they were being attacked by night Me-109e ...

    And in general, the Germans classified the Fw-189 as nahaufklärungsflugzeug - i.e. a tactical reconnaissance aircraft / aircraft for close interaction with the troops. Dot. Here he is either a scout, a spotter, a close-range reconnaissance officer, or a "battlefield plane."

    In one class, by the way, with Hs-126, Fi-156, etc. Those. In 2, the Germans carried it there too. Even Bf-108 (there was such a moth!) Here.
  39. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 25 March 2016 21: 59
    Our conversation with you led me to think of writing an article that I hope to post on VO, let's continue our substantive discussion a bit later.
  40. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 26 March 2016 00: 27
    Only facts, kitty, only facts! It is necessary to honor the criminal code! @ Ostap Bender. laughing