Military Review

Russian folk wrestling (Middle Trans-Urals) (1 part)

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When it comes to popular military tradition, it immediately appears fist fight. So it was in the 19-th century - the Song of the merchant Kalashnikov M. Lermontov, so it remains today - the famous scene from the "Siberian Barber" N. Mikhalkov. But the struggle was widespread among the people. It is mentioned that in the thesis work of A. Kharlampiev about 20 types of popular struggle and means of self-defense are described. Where are they? What did you look like? Why do we know little about them? This and other questions are answered by Andrei Alexandrov, a historian who studies the Russian popular struggle, and specializes in the popular fighting tradition of the Middle Trans-Urals.


Russian folk wrestling (Middle Trans-Urals) (1 part)

AQUARELS F.G. Solntseva. CLOTHES OF THE RUSSIAN STATE. 1869 CH.3


- Introduce yourself, please - tell us about yourself how long and why you became interested in the popular struggle.

- I was born in Ukraine, in the family of an officer of the Soviet army, but historical roots from Siberia and the Volga region. I am a historian and ethnographer by profession, I have been engaged in field ethnography since 2001. The love of history manifested itself early in 5 years: for the first time in the magazine "Murzilka" in 1980, he learned about the Battle of Kulikovo - he "fell ill" with history. Yes, and his father instilled a love of history and exercise. Then he started flipping through his sister’s history books, and in the fourth grade he decided that I would become an archaeologist. After graduation, he entered the Tyumen State University at the Faculty of History. Interest in domestic martial arts began with the books of MN Lukashov, then classes on the “Buza”, and his own search in order to critically approach the work of colleagues in this field and get to the bottom of the truth. He took up ethnography six years after graduation. The first expedition was to the native village of my maternal grandfather, in a. Molchanovo, Tyumen region, Tyumen region, and nearby villages 10-30 km. from Tyumen. The first experiment was very successful: the material went quite easily, the old people willingly shared information about their lives, about wrestling on the belts, games, power competitions, fist fights.



- By the way, there are still a lot of old people left who can share knowledge about the folk tradition?

“They still remained, but the last attempt showed that the material was hard to go: old people die, get sick, memory weakens, they get tired during intercourse. But there are unexpected discoveries, perseverance is rewarded ... From one respondent you can’t take the full information ...

- What region tradition are you studying? In percentage terms, how much did you manage to learn about the military tradition of these places? According to your estimates.
- Basically - the Middle Trans-Urals, more precisely the agricultural south of the Tyumen region, where the "old-timers" and "new settlers" live who arrived during the Stolypin reform. In addition, I collected materials in the Lysogorsky district of the Saratov region, in the homeland of my father, as well as in the Sverdlovsk, Omsk, Novosibirsk regions, Kurgan ... I think I managed to learn about the local tradition on 80-90%. For many years, I can say that most often the information is of the same type, but often “shoots” new terminology, techniques, other facts, so that the ethnographic questionnaire constantly has to be improved, the research prospects are broadened. I consider a competition-applied culture through the prism of a person’s entire life - this is the so-called “biographical method of research”. Immediately you understand - "man-made" was woven into the fabric of the lives of individuals and the whole community, even the region.

- Were there attempts to collect the national military tradition in the Soviet era? Excluding the well-known story about the creation of sambo and the attempts of the journalist B. Chesnokov. After all, numerous ethnographic expeditions were carried out.

- No, I was at school at the time .... And in Soviet ethnography, only a few were engaged in this topic. N.P. Novoselov, B.V. Gorbunov, B. Chesnokov, and, perhaps, everything ... In my research, I rely not only on my own ethnographic material, but also on materials from my colleagues and predecessors, on archival materials, periodical materials up to the Soviet and Soviet period, memories, diaries, and so on, and using the whole complex of sources to restore the general and exact picture from the pieces of the “historical puzzle”. All the other Soviet ethnographers only dealt with this topic in a series of other research topics, without deeply plunging into this industry. They began to study this topic extensively only at the end of the 1980-s - 1990-s.

- Why not?

- The question is interesting, I can only guess. B.V. Gorbunov defended his first thesis (Ph.D.) in 1989. Before him, nobody so carefully summarized this material. On the other hand, there was a strict ban on karate, and on other martial arts that could be confused with karate, besides there was a severe struggle between Soviet power and hooliganism, so the ethnographers didn’t even touch upon many topics, and the people didn’t really talkative, especially those who participated in group fights, went with weapons. Well, in the 1990-s. On the wave of interest in martial arts, a surge of interest in their native culture began ...

- By the way, do not know, N.P. Novoselov was engaged in the practical implementation of his thesis, or was everything at the level of theory?

- As far as I know, N.P. Novoselov did not engage in the practical implementation of his work, written in 1946. However, the writing of his work coincided in time with the realization of collective boxing (essentially collective fist fighting) among the ranks of the SA and Navy in the Far East on the eve of the war with Japan. But it was the embodiment of the idea of ​​the Soviet boxer K.V. Gradopolov, which in 1930-ies. combined boxing and Russian wall fight ...

- What are the differences between the Russian national struggle and the struggle of other nations?

The Russians had several types and varieties:
1) wrestling on belts tied around the waist;
2) wrestling on belts tied over the shoulder and around the waist;
3) wrestling on belts tied crosswise over the shoulder and around the waist;
4) fight with mutual fixed grip with one hand gates;
5) fighting with mutual grip with two hands on the shoulders or straps, missed under the shoulders as the straps on the satchel;
6) struggle with mutual grip with one hand on the arm near the elbow;
7) the fight against arbitrary capture of the body or clothing of the enemy;
8) struggle to girth, etc.

Surely there are such varieties that we have not fixed at all, there is information on this subject, but at the moment it is not enough. Many nations had similar types of struggle, but all have differences in technique. For example, take similar types of belt wrestling in Russian and Kazan Tatars. The Russian belt is tied with a knot in the front, they are used with feet and gray hair with rolling on the back, fighting in the stalls before holding, in any position or on one or two shoulder blades, or on the “four shoulder blades” - when the buttocks and so on are pressed to the ground. Therefore, a set of techniques and preferences is different. Most often, the Tatars do not tie a belt with a knot, most of them fight without a step, before throwing or touching the ground with a third point. Tatars are Muslims, the tradition of Muslims does not allow knots in clothes (otherwise Allah will not hear the prayer), therefore even the fabrics are woven so that there is not a single thread with a knot. In addition, the Sharia cannot intentionally damage clothing, soil human blood and other secretions of clothes (Allah does not hear such clothes), and cause injuries to a person with deformation of body members and organs, especially strikes to the face (face is the image of an angel). Therefore, the Pahlevans in the struggle are trying to observe the rules of Sharia. Islam did not encourage fist fights, but fighting, horse racing, military exercises with a blade, and especially shooting, are encouraged (the latter is a valid reason for being absent from prayer). But in the Russian struggle was not so regulated by the Orthodox faith.

- The popular struggle is more power-based or technical?

The struggle, for those who can fight, is technical, and for those who cannot, or have not adapted to the grip, for example, with a belt with two hands, or behind the goal with one hand, the struggle will be more forceful. In addition, the opponent's weight plays a big role - in the tradition there were no weight categories, the loser left, the winner remained to fight the next opponent, until he left, or no one came to him. For a tired wrestler, even technically, the struggle will be power.

- What is known about the old Russian struggle? Does it coincide with what you found on expeditions?

- We can judge the Old Russian wrestling only by brief references in the annals, for example, The Tale of Bygone Years in the plot of Jan Usmar against the Pechenegs, and Prince Mstislav the Departure with Adyg Rededy, as well as miniatures from the chronicles, frescoes of the Sofia Cathedral in Kiev, the bas-reliefs of the Dmitrovsky Cathedral in Vladimir, the iconographic stamps of the struggle of St. Nestor of Thessalonica with the gladiator Liem, St. Andrew of Tsaregradsky with a demon, St. Joak with the angel ... In general, this is similar to what we find on expeditions, but I cannot speak 100% confidently , similar - not in when thou identity.

- Tell us about the types of struggle of the Slavic peoples.

- The Eastern Slavs, those who today are called Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians, had practically no differences in martial arts. In the Middle Trans-Urals under Stolypin, many “new settlers” came from the Russian and West Russian provinces of the Russian Empire. By the way, they didn’t call themselves Ukrainians and Belarusians, in Siberia they called themselves Russians, or at the place of their exit to Siberia - “Mogilev”, “Chernigov”, “Vitebsk”, “Volyn”, or by a local nickname given to Siberians - “Ukrainians” , “Self-propelled guns.” According to the similarity of the dialect, “old-timers” were so called and “Kursk”, “Smolensk” and other representatives of the transitional wide dialect zones. The term “Ukrainians” and “Belarusians” were imposed during the 1926 census and 1920-s of., And then picked up by Soviet ethnography became a hostage of poly It was a political division, justified by scientists, and when we understand this, it becomes clear why the “separate” nations play games, hand-to-hand and power competitions among the Eastern Slavs are the same on 30-90%. “New settlers” avoided Ukrainization and Belorussification and did not have time to merge with the “old-timers”, including culturally, since the “great war”, revolution and civil, and then collectivization and affiliation to collective farms soon began. So their way of life turned out to be to the delight of the ethnographers to be mothballed by a certain life frame.

As for the Siberian Cossacks, the set of games and competitions they have is the same as that of the peasants, because the Cossacks on 95% consisted of Siberian peasants "old-timers" transferred to the military class, and such a large translation for the 19 century was 3. If we compare the hand-to-hand competitions of the Siberian Cossacks with the Ural, Don and Kuban competitions on the scientific works of V.А. Pechnyak, V.V. Remmler, A.V. Yarovoy, A.S. Alexandrova (my namesake), the similarity is also obvious, despite the local regional and class differences. We were in the framework of a large single ethnocultural space.

- What about the types of struggle of the Slavic peoples in general?

The first description of the techniques of the Slavs dates back to the 6th century. The Byzantine historian Procopius of Caesarea gave a description of the capture of a Goth by a Slav, who in an ambush seized him with his hands and brought him to the Byzantine camp. Apparently, it was about capturing across the body with a grip and pressing both hands to the body, and squeezing the abdomen to deprive the breath, and, most likely, from behind - so it is safer for the attacker. A similar seizure was held by the Russian conqueror Yan Usmar in the 10th century. (PVL), who initially strangled the Pechenegs with his hands, after having torn him off the ground, and then killed him with a blow to the ground. It was probably from such a capture that the struggle was born in the girth across the body and the struggle on the belts. In Western Slavic languages, the term "struggle" literally translates "for the belt." For example, “free-style wrestling” will sound like “free for a belt”, and “sambo” - “sambo for a belt”. From struggle to girth by the waist, there probably arose a struggle in an armful with a grip over the shoulder because the hand during the seizure can walk and often goes up, and then the struggle for the collar, and on the girdles, with the seizure tied over the shoulder and crosswise . Our ethnographic materials show that the fight against arbitrary seizure appears where the belt for a fixed seizure disappears, which guides and limits excess freedom, which is better for initial training.

- So it turns out that the struggle is not belt not borrowed from the nomadic peoples? If it is in the Western Slavs, who practically did not contact with the Mongols. It is believed that the nomads understand the emergence - to pull the enemy from the saddle.

- There is such a struggle in North and South America, known in England, in France, Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians. Practice shows that grabbing a belt on a horse is dangerous for a grabber: first, it’s very difficult to put your hands under your belt on foot, and what to say about it during a race, and when you grab a horse on a belt, you have to roll over, with which the attacker is most easily pulled off the horse. Rather, they themselves used grip to capture the retreating - from the back.

In the 2 part: the people's OFPs and TFEs, teaching methods, competition rules, the “applied section” of the national combat tradition and much more
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  1. Riv
    Riv 29 February 2016 07: 58 New
    +1
    Well, here it is again ... "Somewhere there is something like that, but nobody really knows anything." The techniques are completely different (how many ways of tying belts are there?), The Tatar struggle with the Russian, the traditions of Islam are mixed in a bunch, and it is good that the Nanai boys were not dragged into the struggle.

    If there is a school, then where are its students doing? The hall should be. The teacher’s garden plot will go to the extremes, but if today is here, and tomorrow is there, then these are some homeless people. Suppose tomorrow Belov enlightens, decides to quit karate and engage in Russian wrestling. Where should he go?
    What did their teacher and older students write? It would be interesting to read their research. No such? Sadly ... Are seminars being held? Here the Dark One, for example, conducts them. What are the traditions of the school based on?

    And most importantly: what is it called ???
    1. Saling
      Saling 29 February 2016 09: 24 New
      +5
      As one clever person said: "No, for God's sake - everything is better than alcoholism with drug addiction. Or what is even worse, but ... a reason for creativity" (c). wink
      1. Riv
        Riv 29 February 2016 09: 57 New
        +2
        Than alcoholism is certainly better. And much more is better. But...
        There are people who practice karate. They never achieved anything, because this occupation is nothing to do. There are those who come to the gym to train. They get degrees and belts, but they don’t know whether they will win the next fight. And there are people who study karate. They never lose fights because they never fight for the sake of bullshit.
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 29 February 2016 13: 48 New
      +4
      Think, smart guy! Before the revolution of 1917, life in the village could not change socially for a century! Fist fights (including "wall"), fair fighting were commonplace for villagers - the whole village was a school! Everything "collapsed" after the "October" revolution and civil war ... plus the "construction of the century", repression, VOV, evacuations. "displaced persons" ... The centuries-old foundations collapsed, traditions were lost ... Fistfight on Shrovetide? Are you okueli ?! This is hooliganism! Hooligan fight! Where should the police look? Here are the grounds for asserting that in Russia there was and is not "martial arts"! Well, what should I do? Is it possible to remind "about the gopher"? "Do you see a gopher in the field? No? And he is there!"
      1. Riv
        Riv 29 February 2016 15: 57 New
        +2
        I will never be able to explain to the "professors" of the Russian style that the Russian style has never been reduced either to combat without weapons, or to combat with melee weapons, or to archery, or to firearms. That this style is in no way less than a thousand years old and all their newfangled kundstyuk is nothing more than spoiled air.

        The Russian style should be understood as comprehensive training. And not some kind of martial arts (on the belts, or on the fingers, if you like), but the full range of skills necessary to win the battlefield. It was on the battlefield, not at a beer fair. The first of the formalized schools of the Russian style was obviously the school of A.V.Suvorov, with his "Science to Win". The selection for it was extremely harsh: "Here are three recruits for you, make one soldier out of them." What is characteristic: they did it. That is why the prince put both Europe and Turkey in the positions he wanted. And after him they put on for another hundred years.

        So I would advise those wishing to study the Russian style to begin with, to start serving in the Soviet Army there are about five years old. There the selection was similar, only a much smaller percentage was selected from the recruits. It is a pity that the army is no longer there. Modern Russian, despite all the technical innovations, looks pale next to it.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 1 March 2016 03: 31 New
          +1
          Quote: Riv
          It is a pity that the army is no longer there. Modern Russian, despite all the technical innovations, looks pale next to it.

          So, who would argue ?! But not me! I agree! And the sun was brighter, and the grass was greener, and the girls were more accommodating, and the sausage was 3 rubles .....
      2. Rivares
        Rivares 29 February 2016 19: 59 New
        0
        Quote: Nikolaevich I
        the fairs were a common occurrence for the villagers - the whole village was a school! Everything "collapsed" after the "October" revolution and civil war

        Collapsed not only then. Christians were unobtrusively forbidden (and also not encouraged now) to study martial arts.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 1 March 2016 03: 58 New
          +1
          Quote: Rivares
          Christians were unobtrusively forbidden (and also not encouraged now) to study martial arts.

          And somehow I don’t “want” to reproach Christianity for excessive pacifism ... If the church was “dissatisfied,” it was not the “fistfight” itself, but a “relic” of paganism ... in the form of a fistfight! they could sometimes "scold" the "flaming" flock, but they did not make "sharp movements" ... they did not go into trouble! That is why fistfights in the villages were commonplace before the "social revolution of the 17th"; and some time later ... And in times of trouble, when the adversaries approached, monasteries "turned" into fortresses, and monks into warriors! With the blessing of the higher clergy! That was the "peaceful policy" of the church to defend the country when necessary!
  2. Buzater
    Buzater 29 February 2016 09: 34 New
    +5
    Andrei Vadimovich Gruntovsky, St. Petersburg. Competitions in the North-West in Russian fist fight. The Cossacks of Veliky Novgorod have a good school. And they fight in a peculiar way, you can immediately recognize them. Wall-mounted battles are regularly held both in Novgorod the Great, and in Vologda and St. Petersburg. Both individually and joint walls. So the traditions were and will be. And this is the main point. for me it’s better that Buzo’s guys do it than how monkeys jump into a kimano on taekwondo or there is no practical application of caroeiro there. and here the interest in the guys and in the story wakes up well and to a healthy lifestyle.
    1. Riv
      Riv 29 February 2016 09: 50 New
      0
      No, not better. By analogy, you can study plumbing on your own, or under the guidance of a half-drunk plumber. Or you can study at a vocational school and come out with a working discharge, which your skill will confirm to any understanding person. You can send the "Lunokhod" to the moon, or you can say: "Why? I can see everything from here too."

      School is primarily a discipline. Strict requirements for beginners and an order of magnitude more severe for masters. What discipline can be wall-to-wall in battles? Toys are all that.
      1. g1v2
        g1v2 29 February 2016 10: 15 New
        +5
        Well, the series of articles is not primarily advertising, but fact-finding. For example, I’ve written about many types of martial arts about which the author writes and have never heard. It is clear that most of these styles are a form of historical reconstruction, and the number of styles and schools whose skills can really be useful is limited. In addition, in the army, as a rule, those who need it are taught a concentrated squeeze from different schools and styles, imprisoned for killing or neutralizing the enemy. In the police, other needs and training are slightly different, since the task is, as a rule, to neutralize a person with a minimum of injuries. In sport - the third task and the basis is still entertainment, otherwise people will not watch. For self-defense, in general, other training and specific skills in order to be saved and not to sit for excess. All these types of schools have evolved over the years and have been polished by people who know what and for what purpose people need.
        So I was engaged in judo and karate, but in my life the methodology for hand-to-hand combat from the 70s of the graduation, presented by an acquaintance of the officer, helped me much more. Everything is short and capacious there. No spectacular pa, just bare pragmatism and functionality.
      2. Buzater
        Buzater 29 February 2016 10: 35 New
        0
        My friend, the wall is a tradition, and believe me, it is above all discipline. not to be confused with foodball fan clubs. There are no "SCHOOLS" as such, this is something oriental - SCHOOL. here it is the Novgorod tradition of fist fighting, Vologda, etc. look for the sake of interest the video is on the network different. a lot of course bileberdy in the form of Kadochnikov and others like him. And toys or not ... our guys take part in competitions with boxers, sambists, hand-to-hand fighters, in a knife fight and take prizes. maybe it's toys. but from these games the head, muscles and, most importantly, the spirit - develop. And this is the main point. :)
        1. Riv
          Riv 29 February 2016 11: 24 New
          +3
          Well, yes ... Discipline ... Like any re-enactor, or tolkinian. :)
          And the prize-winning place in a knife fight - in a memorial, definitely.
          And yes! How did I forget ?! COSSACKS OF GREAT NOVGOROD ... I heard about Don Cossacks, about the Urals, too, but about Veliky Novgorod - alas. Perhaps this is some kind of new Cossacks, well, like the Jewish one.
          1. Saling
            Saling 29 February 2016 11: 49 New
            0
            Oh for nothing you raised this topic wink Now experts run with stories about the Novgorod Ushkuiniki, from whom, allegedly, the Don Cossacks came wink
            1. Riv
              Riv 29 February 2016 11: 56 New
              +1
              Yes, they have already run ... Let yourself think. :)
              Our people are not looking for easy ways. So to think: why run from Vyatka to the Don, when the whole Vyatka was in prison and villages? Set sail for fifty miles, built a hut - and live. The landlords there never happened.
              1. co-creator
                co-creator 1 March 2016 15: 57 New
                0
                Quote: Riv
                Our people are not looking for easy ways. So to think: why run from Vyatka to the Don, when the whole Vyatka was in prison and villages? Set sail for fifty miles, built a hut - and live. The landlords there never happened.

                Honestly laughing Apparently people did not know this at that time and fled already to Altai. It was a pity you weren’t explaining where to build a hut.
              2. The comment was deleted.
            2. co-creator
              co-creator 1 March 2016 15: 55 New
              0
              Quote: Saling
              Now experts run with stories about the Novgorod Ushkuiniki, from whom, allegedly, the Don Cossacks came

              Maybe the Cossacks didn’t come from them, but in essence this is one and the same estate. The name here does not matter at all. Here they took the peasants in Siberia recorded in the Cossacks and nothing is fine.
          2. Rivares
            Rivares 29 February 2016 20: 02 New
            0
            Quote: Riv
            And yes! How did I forget ?! COSSACKS OF GREAT NOVGOROD ... I heard about Don Cossacks, about the Urals, too, but about Veliky Novgorod - alas

            I will enrich your piggy bank of Cossacks.
            According to Russian chronicles, as previously thought, the first mention of Cossacks (Ryazan) dates back to 1443/1444
          3. co-creator
            co-creator 1 March 2016 15: 53 New
            0
            Quote: Riv
            I heard about Don Cossacks, about the Urals, too, but alas about Velikovgorod. Perhaps this is some kind of new Cossacks, well, like the Jewish

            Well, because the Cossack is not a nationality, but above all an estate. Before the Troubles, Cossacks lived quite well, for example, in Moscow. In Novgorod, such comrades called ushkuiniki.
  3. Saling
    Saling 29 February 2016 11: 11 New
    +1
    Demand creates supply. There is a fashion to return to the roots - get an excellent bribe for loot. wink The main thing is more "ancient Slavic roots" or mysterious words like "SMERSH", "NKVD", "SPAS". By the way, there are three types of spas: apple, honey and nut :-), and BUZA is a word of Turkic origin))) This is the name of the intoxicating drink. The roots of the school of the drunken master can be traced)))
  4. eugraphus
    eugraphus 29 February 2016 11: 19 New
    +3
    As I read in the Spark of Perestroika years, how nations created the USSR, and especially national culture, in the USSR. Bukharin was still alive, who came to Beshkek and talked with locals about folk dances. They say - we were just not up to dancing. We need to graze cattle, to survive constantly. But Bukharin didn’t let up, -Well, what kind of national movements do you have? Do you simply approach a grazing horse or something special? -Well, we’re getting quietly. - Here you have the basis for the national elements of dance.
    And it seems to me that most of the collected about Russian fighting styles are also sucked from the finger.
    Take our Kamchatka, the entire local entography is a solid remake, stylized as a local flavor. But it is in great demand. Several ensembles have multiplied, without which there is not a single holiday, they go on (though not numerous) tours. The souvenir shops are packed with "national" souvenirs. How else the school of Koryak wrestling was not invented. (Due to the fact that martial arts on the peninsula are at their best).
    Life is hard and even sulfur. Not up to high art often. The harsh surrounding beauty is enough. But when he breaks away from his usual life and nostalgia gnaws, artificial substitutes appear. As a child, in the northern region of the Omsk region, I heard how men under the barrage of moonshine that just did not poison. Even as a bear they fought. Come to them at that moment, ask about the styles of local wrestling, such would be told, Japan is resting.
    1. Riv
      Riv 29 February 2016 11: 35 New
      +2
      Fighting Nanai Boys. Not invented by us ... :)
    2. Saling
      Saling 29 February 2016 11: 53 New
      0
      That there is absolutely nothing left of "the implementation of collective boxing (in fact, collective fist fighting) among the rank and file of the SA and the Navy in the Far East on the eve of the war with Japan"? wink. And how impressive it would look: a collective fist fight of the Navy in a submarine. wink
    3. andrew42
      andrew42 29 February 2016 15: 10 New
      -1
      No, it is not sucked from the finger. It has simply been thoroughly trampled down and pressed in until now. Cause? - Engaging in Russian martial arts is unthinkable without familiarizing yourself with the national military culture in particular, and the national culture in general. Yes, precisely to those cultural "pagan" strata that our priests do not like so much, and from which those in power so panic, knocking on the table with Article 282 for or without reason. In his youth he tried to study Buza. They said that it is necessary to teach at the latest from the age of 11. Because the style of fighting is not training "by divisions", one must feel it with all nature, one must live in this, even if one went to the forest for firewood. Compared to the same style of Kadochnikov (and he was engaged in this after the institute), - Buza, this is heaven and earth. Kadochnikov is a derivative, combat concepts such as Buza are the basis. It is clear that not only Buza. There are many systems. There is an emphasis on fist technique, according to the same Belov. There are fist-wrestlers like the same "booze". I can only agree that in the Slavic tradition of "pure struggle" I somehow did not observe. Apparently, for thousands of years there was no time to trample in pairs in a clearing. More and more circular combat, and jumping with 2 swords on horsebacks. Something like this. We need to look for the bearers of the tradition and learn. And the nuts are tightened right now, these are not the loose 90s. For example, if you pull out a towel with a swastika, wipe your face, different "ekshperts" will drag you to the court.
    4. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 1 March 2016 04: 23 New
      +1
      Once I read a newspaper article that a certain "small people of the North" has its own "indigenous" style of martial arts! That, who owned this style, the bear was not afraid! Moreover, the journalist "noted" that this style in "our time" was divided into "pure" original original style ("old-fashioned"); and "remake". That is, "modernized" by the technique of karate. So much for the “fight of the Nanai boys!” To my regret, I cannot remember either the ethnic group mentioned by the newspaperman, nor the name of this “style”! Maybe who else has seen this "article"?
  5. Buzater
    Buzater 29 February 2016 12: 01 New
    -1
    :)))) Well, the guys parted the gimp. Shaking hands - not tossing bags :))) Although there is a lot of fairness in the comments, but I’ll repeat it better let the fight of the Nanai boys be - than a pivasik and tanchiki on the sofa :)))
  6. Saling
    Saling 29 February 2016 12: 43 New
    +1
    So it is so. But there is a Russian proverb: "We wanted the best ...". I am plagued with vague suspicions whether this will do good wink . Somehow it does not work without alcohol among fans of ancient sources wink Vaughn "martial arts" was called BUZA)))) Buza is a low-alcohol, thick and sweet drink of Bashkirs, Kazakhs, Kirghiz, Tatars, Crimean Tatars. In the Tatar language, the word "buza" has another meaning: scandal, noisy disorder. And how do you know "what do you call a yacht .." wink Maybe all the same for the health of good people, the tanks will be calmer.
  7. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 29 February 2016 16: 08 New
    +2
    Here is the real story of the people's struggle. Real, and the story of the struggle of the warrior people, and not desperately pouting cowards like the Japanese and Chinese. There were no "schools" there were and could not be super techniques, secret techniques, miracles ...
    Why practically all kinds of belt wrestling? Because this is the easiest way to prohibit fighters from using real combat techniques. These are not Japanese, they twist each other's necks with a fever, their hands are pulled out of the joints, the collarbones will be pulled out of the shoulder! And it is necessary to train strength, endurance, coordination, and most importantly - it is necessary to give the opportunity to hot fighters to play off the seething force without killing.
    The warriors shouted, pushed themselves, now it will reach the sabers. The men shouted at the holiday, look at whom they would unscrew the head ... well then there is a way out, they throw a cry - go out to fight! That's good, mighty uncles tinker, get tired, sweat, it seems like they crushed one another, like won. And okay, and good.
    And mortal combat is with a weapon. And it is really to death, only children dabbled with wooden sticks, which means that it is not suitable for all kinds of competitions (in the current sense), do not put fighters for fun. This, and only this place can be occupied by the struggle of peoples who are really and fiercely at war. No clandestine "rotten salmon falls from the tree" kicks. There is no need to look for a miracle battle with your bare hands, it does not exist, has not been and will not be!
    Another thing is that melee is necessary, and our people understood it like no other. But a real, combat, reaching all real goals melee is a wall-to-wall battle. But only. Everything else is strange and unhealthy cadavres of the era of unnatural arms bans.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 1 March 2016 04: 55 New
      +1
      I think that the "rejectionists" of Russian styles simply "lack romanticism"! Whether it is "Vostok" (!): The style of a jungle cat, who was pinched by "personal belongings" in the fork of a century-old fig tree! Or, the style of a non-drunken monk, whose cherished bottle of pivasik was "stolen" in the morning! Sounds like? Sounds! And the "blow of a crazy crane with its beak on the power line support"? And in Russia ....? .... "As a lady, right now, in the face!" Where is "romanticism"? So the "rejectionists" do not recognize the "Russian styles"!
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 1 March 2016 05: 31 New
        +1
        PS "There were no Russian styles and there are no ..."? What was it? Nothing? Why Russian hand-to-hand combat has always been effective against enemies and is always terrible for them? Why did the enemy fear the Russian soldier in hand-to-hand combat? And what is "style"? In some "ryu-kanas" they make them "memorize" the techniques "piece by piece" in training .... in others, they "distribute" techniques into groups based on one basic technique; and "inspire" students to master the basic techniques .. . and there are those who argue that in martial arts it is necessary to rely on natural instincts and "fixed" reflexes. It turns out that the "people" can "understand the style" - each in its own way! And, if the village constant "practice of wall fighting" helped the soldiers of the Russian army "keep the line"; taught them to "feel the elbow with their comrades"; overcome fear, not be afraid of pain, blood, then what do you still need? What is the "style"?
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 3 March 2016 19: 22 New
          0
          Quote: Nikolaevich I
          Why did the enemy fear the Russian soldier in hand-to-hand combat?

          I have already returned to the topic. What is soldier hand-to-hand combat? A fight in a pub, or what? Who on the battlefield was "afraid" of an unarmed soldier? Damn, people of the plague are getting too much ...
  8. Tanysh
    Tanysh 29 February 2016 16: 51 New
    +4
    Interesting comments - everybody is very willing to judge what he doesn’t know about.
    I don’t presume to judge because any nation had a system of survival, and the struggle at the fair is only a piece of the general system. Once we talked with one "specialist" who is a big fan of being called "GURU" about combat dances. How he painted the combat hopak and capoeira only
    he could not answer the question how will he dance hopak on the rocks? On the rocks it is necessary on tiptoe like a lezginka path the narrow place is scarce. And the Mari dance, in the sand and swamps, you don’t want to trample, you will otherwise get bogged down.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 1 March 2016 04: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: Tanysh
      how will he dance hopak on the rocks?

      Rocks in the steppes of Ukraine? request recourse Cool !
  9. Mentat
    Mentat 1 March 2016 20: 43 New
    0
    Quote: andrew42
    No, it is not sucked from the finger. It has simply been thoroughly trampled down and pressed in until now. Cause? - Engaging in Russian martial arts is unthinkable without familiarizing yourself with the national military culture in particular, and the national culture in general. Yes, yes, precisely to those cultural "pagan" layers

    The fact that now they are trying to wholesale "certain elements" to the masses under the guise of "cultural historical layers" is financed from the United States and is stupid, idiotic, anti-ROC propaganda, which has nothing to do with culture or history. ... The reaction to this will be appropriate.

    And the nuts are tightened right now, these are not the loose 90s. For example, if you pull out a towel with a swastika, wipe your face, different "ekshperts" will drag you to the court.

    In Russia there is no ban on the swastika symbol, you just lie. There is a ban on specific images, including the swastika, which are symbols of German Nazism.
  10. boo-048
    boo-048 3 March 2016 23: 39 New
    0
    about Sharia in general HA-HA, especially when the battle is on
  11. boo-048
    boo-048 3 March 2016 23: 41 New
    0
    Tatars have no such rules in the struggle to mix Sharia fool
  12. Hurray
    Hurray 5 March 2016 06: 05 New
    0
    We need to see how the rural boys of this or that people amuse themselves. If you are fighting like that, then there are some traditions in this area.