Military Review

125 years of Russian trilinea

73



The wars of the second half of the XIX century clearly showed the increasing importance of the rapid-fire weapons. Its advantage was so obvious that everywhere hastily began the search for means and ways to increase the speed of firing old rifles and the design of new ones. By that time, the world had known the first Spencer multiply charged systems (used in the American Civil War), Wetterly (adopted by the Swiss army in 1869 g). Winchester (used by the Turks in the war with Russia 1877-1878) All of them had stores in the form of long narrow tubes, placed either in the butt (Spencer) or under the barrel (Wetterly, Winchester). Carabiners Spencer and Winchester used a cartridge with a small charge and had very mediocre ballistic qualities that the infantry troops did not satisfy. The Wetterly rifle was heavy, had an unreliable mechanism and an outdated cartridge. For these reasons, the aforementioned “stores” are not widely used.

At that time, the six-pin shines (15,24-mm) of Terry-Norman, Karl, Krnka and 4,2-linear (10,67-mm) rifle were in service with the Russian army. All singly charged, reworking.



The issue of replacing outdated systems with new ones in Russia was raised in 1878 year. The gun department of the Artillery Committee, in its May decree, "recognized it necessary to begin work on the test rifles." But, since there were no completely satisfactory samples of this type of rifles, the experiments focused mainly on testing various temporary devices that accelerate firing.

However, tests have shown that such devices are ineffective. They did not give a big increase in the rate of fire, and the costs of their introduction required “very significant”. In view of this, they were not accepted for service.

In 1882, captain Sergey Ivanin Mosin took over the work on the new system. The first task that the gunsmith set for himself is to increase the firing rate of a single-shot rifle using a convenient constant accelerator. For the experiments, Mosin chose the 4,2 linear jib with a sliding gate, which at that time was the most perfect in the Russian army. Mosin redid it, having built in the butt rack magazine on 7, 8 cartridges. The rifle had a contactor, which fixed the store feed mechanism in the rear position, which made it possible to conduct firing in the same way as from a single-shot system.

The tests carried out on the Mosinsky sample showed that he was quite progressive and successful in his idea of ​​placing the cartridges in the store, supplying them and the method of filling the store with cartridges, but it requires a radical redesign of the mechanism parts and a major change in some parts of the rifle. In May, 1883, on the orders of the Minister of War, a Commission was formed to test magazine guns, headed by a permanent member of the Artillery Committee, Major General Chagin.

By this time, commissions had already presented the multiply charged rifles of Mosin, Lutkovsky, the weapon master Kvashnevsky, the Russian designers Major-General Veltischev and Colonel Khristich. Later, rifle samples were received from lieutenant colonel Vladimirov, staff captain Mitkevich, master Kharitonov, foreigners Ivens, Schul-goff, Gra-Kropachek, Mauser, and others. Of all the tested samples, the systems of Kvashnevsky and Mosin turned out to be the most successful.

In the 1885 year, after eliminating the deficiencies, the Mosinskaya model received a positive assessment, and was given preference. The Commission decided to "put the gun of the Captain Mosin system" on a military test to determine its suitability. In the 17 paragraphs of its conclusion there were various recommendations for changing individual weapon parts, including the proposal to increase the magazine’s capacity to 11 cartridges.

125 years of Russian trilinea


The Tula Arms Plant was given an order for the urgent manufacture of 1000 new rifles. In 1887, Sergei Ivanovich presented the Commission with three improved samples of his rack system. All recommendations were taken into account. In addition, the designer made a number of significant improvements on his own initiative. Despite this, members of the commission believed that the gun needed further improvement. Mosin and without that so thoroughly changed the scheme of the rifle that it could not be counted among the remake ones. Therefore, it was more expedient to develop a completely new system for a new small-caliber cartridge with a new smokeless powder. Smokeless (pyroxylin) powder appeared by that time abroad and in Russia had a huge advantage over smoky (nitrate-gray-coal): it was much stronger, did not leave solid combustion products. This made it possible to reduce the weight of the charge, move on to an even smaller caliber of weapon, and improve its ballistic qualities. In France, such a rifle was already in service, of which Russia was informed by its military agent.

Intensive experiments in this direction were carried out in other countries. This forced the commission to stop working further with the 4,2 linear weapon. S.I. Mosinu was allowed to design a reduced-caliber multi-shot rifle. A permanent member of the Weapons Division of the Artillery Committee, Colonel Rogovtsev, has already worked on a single-shot 3,15-linear (8-mm) system in Russia. According to his drawings, the Petersburg Cartridge Plant produced a small batch of cartridges and bullets. The sleeves are brass, the bullets are made of hard alloy of lead and tin with a copper sheath. Under this cartridge, Mosin began developing his small-caliber rifle. He was in a hurry. In addition to the French army, shop weapons during 1884-1887 entered service with the German and Italian armies. Only Russia was not particularly in a hurry, chose samples, tested.

In September 1887, S.I. Mosin finished his 3,15-linear rifle with a rack and pinion magazine. In the same year she passed the tests, which showed that the designer took into account all the main instructions of the commission. The latter referred to the presented system as a whole favorably, but did not recognize it as satisfactory. The designer was given new recommendations.

Meanwhile, the European armies were rearming with feverish speed. In 1888, the new store system was adopted by Germany, in 1889, by England, Austria-Hungary, Switzerland, and Denmark. Russia still did not have a suitable model. The Minister of War, General Vannovsky, seriously considered the introduction of "shops" unnecessary. He reasoned like this: “The West does not decree us; we and singles are stronger. We teach the soldier: shoot rarely, yes aptly. ” In addition, the minister was afraid of a large expenditure of ammunition. During a conversation with the chairman of the commission, General Chagin, he once admitted: “I tell you according to conscience, Alexander Mikhailovich, I don’t believe in shop rifles enough. Excessive ammo consumption! ”

Therefore, the military ministry was in no hurry to take a sample of a magazine rifle, postponing the rearmament of the army for the future, and first of all required to work on developing a new single-shot weapon of a smaller caliber. Due to the fact that the creation of a small-caliber rifle acquired paramount importance, in October 1889, the Commission on the Testing of Magazines Rifles was renamed the Commission on the development of a small-caliber rifle.

Mosin took up the construction of a reduced-caliber single-charge system. In a very short time he managed to prepare the first sample. Further work on its improvement continued until January next year. Mosin took the Frenchman Lebel’s rifle, which was then considered the best, as a basis. She has undergone the following changes. The caliber with 3,15 lines has been reduced to 3-x (7,62-mm). Several transformed trunk. In contrast to the Lebelev, Mosinsky design allowed to fire with a closed bayonet. Mushka remained Berdanovskaya, because the soldiers got used to her. The gate Mosin modified. At the suggestion of the commission, he also designed the receiver, and in two versions. One of them envisaged the alteration of weapons in the store. The bayonet for the trilinea was developed by the gunsmiths of the Sestroretsk plant.



In 1889, Russia became aware of the appearance of “shops” in Germany, loaded with 5 cartridges. The time required to enter the pack in the receiver required as much as the loading of a single-shot weapon. In this system was the main achievement in the design of the magazine weapons. Now the main drawback of magazine rifles was eliminated - slow loading and, as a result of this, the requirement to use a supply of ammunition only at the most necessary moment.

At the end of 1889, the Belgian manufacturer Leon Nagan offered Russia his latest sample of a 3,15 linear magazine rifle, loaded from the holder. It differed in ease, convenience in the address, simplicity of the device of the accelerator. However, the tests found that the magazine mechanism of the Belgian rifle is malfunctioning. The commission pointed out to Nagan a serious defect and, moreover, recommended redoing the system under a three-line cartridge, ensuring that the bolt adheres to the receiver using a separate battle larva.

Simultaneously with Nagan, the captains Mosin and Zakharov, who were directly involved in the work of the commission, worked on the development of an acceptable rifle sample. They set themselves the task of redesigning a convenient and durable shutter, to improve the mechanism of the store. Mosin set to work with enthusiasm. In the small semi-handicraft workshop of the shooting range of the Oranienbaum officer school, he worked tirelessly for almost four months. In February, 1890, Sergei Ivanovich presented to the commission a three-line original. The shutter in it was a special design. He had a battle larvae with symmetrical protrusions and freely understood without the help of a screwdriver. The store was a trapezoid metal console with a door opening down and a feed mechanism attached to it. He charged with plate clips. A completely new piece in the Mosinsky system was a cut-off reflector attached to the receiver. This finding allowed the designer to solve the problem of a clear and reliable supply of cartridges in a single-row store being charged from the cage, which foreign gunsmiths unsuccessfully fought over.

Created by S.I. Mosin system was a prototype of the famous three-line, which was later adopted by our army. There were three new elements in it: the mechanism of the rifle itself, the method of loading with the new holder, the new cartridge with the new ballistics. According to experts, in its constructive qualities, it stood above its contemporary foreign designs.

Tests Mosinsky rifle gave positive results. In general, his trilinek satisfied the high demands of the commission. True, some other design flaws were discovered, the technical roughness to which the commission indicated. Mosin eliminates them, stubbornly continuing to improve their creation. Nagan also did not waste time in vain. Having learned about the cut-off reflector of the Russian gunsmith, the Belgian, after five and a half months, introduces a similar detail into his gun. During 1890, parallel tests of two systems went on: S.I. Mosin and Nagant. Both were evaluated about the same, and both claimed to be adopted for service.

The final comparative military check of these guns lasted from December 1890 to 18 March 1891. The Tula factory fully fulfilled the order, having made Mosin 300 rifles. Because of the rush, they were not well-established. Nagan, in violation of the contract, presented only 100 copies. But they all differed impeccable production performance. Tests gave almost identical results on accuracy and rate of fire. But the Naganovsk samples had fewer breakdowns and delays. Therefore, although the constructive solution of the Mosin system was also the best, the troops spoke in favor of the Nagant rifle. Their opinion has influenced many members of the commission. However, after a detailed consideration of this issue, given the cheapness and ease of production of the Mosin rifle, the commission nevertheless decided it in favor of Mosin.



20 March 1891, at a meeting of the Weapons Division of the Artillery Committee, it was recognized that the gun of Nagant was more difficult to manufacture than the Mosin design. The inspector of weapons and ammunition factories, General Bestuzhev-Ryumin, preferred the Mosin model. More resolutely in defense of the merits of Russian equipment and our designer, an authoritative weaponry specialist, a professor at the artillery academy, Lieutenant General Chebyshev. Taking into account not the finishing and debugging of individual types of weapons, but the practicality and reliability of the structure as a whole, he said: “The system of Captain Mosin has tremendous advantages over the system of Nagant”.

After the final finishing touches made by Mosin with the help of the staff captain Zalyubovsky, two rifles were remade for the Nagan holders, and one for the Mosinsky lamellar holders. On April 13, the Minister of War presented the tsar with a report “On the approval of a three-line gun sample proposed by Captain Mosin”. It was stated that the Russian designer’s system in many respects is preferable to the foreign Nagan system, both in terms of simpler design and lower cost of production, and also because Russian arms factories can master it more quickly in gross production.

By this, it was recognized that the Russian designer S. I. Mosin in a creative competition with eminent foreign gunsmiths achieved an outstanding victory, creating the most perfect, at that time, model of small arms. It was witnessed by the Americans. Their military attache in Russia, cavalry lieutenant Henry Allen addressed Mosin with a letter in which he offered the Russian designer to transfer his invention to the United States. Of course, for the appropriate reward. But Mosin did not even answer him.



16 April 1891, the rifle of Captain Mosin, was finally adopted by the Russian army. But contrary to the tradition that has developed in all countries, assign the name of the inventor to the weapon - the Mosinsky gun remains nameless. In his submission, the Minister of War proposed to call her the “Russian rifle of the 1891 model of the year”. But the king did not even agree with that. He crossed out the word "Russian" and "commend the deigns of the highest: to call this rifle a three-line rifle of the 1891 model of the year."



Thus was born the domestic three-line. She was distinguished by such a perfect design that she quickly gained recognition not only at home, but also abroad. In 1900, at the World Paris Exhibition, along with other products of Tula gunsmiths, the S.I. Mosin system received the highest award. In 1930, a latch against the bayonet was inserted into it, a new aiming frame, a namuchnik with a bayonet was transferred to the body of the front sight, the shape of the front one itself was changed, the false rings of Fedortsev and some other details were adopted. Easy handling, reliable operation, and the high ballistic qualities of the Mosin rifle ensured its enviable durability. After a flintlock she has the greatest service record. With the Mosino trilinea, Russian soldiers went to the enemies of the fatherland in the Russo-Japanese and the First World War, beat the interventionists at a difficult time for the country, and even half a century after the creation, during the Great Patriotic War, this rifle made an indisputable contribution to the victory, reaching the Soviet soldiers to the very walls of the Reichstag.



Sources:
Chudinov G. Designer S.I. Mosin. Tula: Priokskoe book publishing house, 1990. C. 91-127.
Mavrodin V., Mavrodin Val. Russian rifle. L .: Leningrad State University, 1984. C. 113-121.
Chelnokov S. Mosin vs Nagant // Masterwork. 2007. No.24. C.29-36.
Parkin P. Rifle S.I. Mosin // Militaryhistorical magazine. 1971. No. 5. S. 122-126.
Andreev I. 7,62-mm rifle of the 1891 / 30 model of the year // Technique for young people. 1973. No.1. C. 50-52.
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  1. semirek
    semirek 25 February 2016 06: 47 New
    31
    ... He got up alone, and a three-line rifle beats from his knee, on a tarpaulin belt,
    Yes, ammunition with the head that are scary steel armor ...
    A. Tvardovsky "Vasily Turkin"
    Glory to the Russian gunsmith S.I. Mosin! Glory to Russian weapons!
    1. Rarog
      Rarog 25 February 2016 20: 36 New
      11
      Not Alexander Trifonovich of course, but modern folk prose from the vastness of the World Wide Web:

      Everything is relative.

      M16 - Wedges when dirty
      AK47 - Works when dirty
      Three-line - The mud is afraid to pester her
      M16 - Hundreds of moving parts held together by dozens of bolts and screws
      AK47 - A pair of dozens of moving parts held by a handful of rivets and ugly welds
      Three-line - three moving parts, two screws.
      M16 - You would rather die than break your expensive rifle in hand-to-hand combat
      AK47 - with your assault rifle you can beat off well in hand-to-hand fighting
      Three-ruler - Your rifle is a cool spear with the ability to shoot
      M16 - if the striker breaks, you send the rifle to the factory under warranty
      AK47 - if the striker breaks, you buy a new one
      Three-line - If the striker breaks, you spin it a couple of turns further into the shutter
      M16 - More difficult to manufacture than many aircraft
      AK47 - Used by countries that do not have money for airplanes
      Three-line - Aircraft shot down from it
      Owner's favorite drink
      M16 - Coca-Cola
      AK47 - Tea and Kvass
      Three-line - Kvass and Tea
      M16 - Makes a small hole, everything is neat, in accordance with the Geneva Convention
      AK47 - Makes a big hole, sometimes tears off limbs, does not comply with the Geneva Convention
      Three-line - One of the reasons for the creation of the Geneva Convention
      M16 - perfectly shoots small rodents
      AK47 - perfectly shoots enemies of Russia
      Three-line - perfectly shoots light equipment of the enemies of Russia
      M16 - once in the river, it stops working
      AK47 - hitting a river, still shoots
      Three-ruler - once in the river, usually used as a paddle
      M16 - Weapon Shit
      AK47 - Weapon of the Warrior!
      Three-line - Victory Arms!
      M16 - The grenade launcher is heavy, but can put a grenade in a window 200 meters away
      AK47 - If anything, the grenade from the grenade launcher can be thrown into the window with your hand
      Three-line - Grenade out the window? Hit through the wall, a bullet pierces almost a meter of brick
      M16 - You can put a silencer, a small cartridge does not give a lot of sound
      AK47 - In principle, you can put a silencer, but it’s better just to press enemies to the ground with continuous fire
      Three-line - Why a silencer, when after the first shot of the enemy there will be no more?
  2. tchoni
    tchoni 25 February 2016 07: 13 New
    +5
    Interesting topic. It would be nice to supplement it with relevant articles about fellow-rival-opponents. And if the series ends with a comparative "test drive" of at least a Mauser, Lee-Enfield, and Mosinki - it would be cool at all!
    1. Captain45
      Captain45 25 February 2016 08: 25 New
      +5
      Quote: tchoni
      And if the series ends with a comparative "test drive" of at least a Mauser, Lee-Enfield, and Mosinki - it would be cool at all!

      On VO there was an article "Two rifles of two world wars" by Ryabov Kirill, there was a comparison between a mosinka and a Mauser, the article was long ago, rummage in the archive, I have no links left.
      1. tchoni
        tchoni 25 February 2016 10: 36 New
        +1
        Mauser is not the only three-ruler classmate. And the idea of ​​a series of articles is not to rewrite directories. And in comparison and juxtaposition. Plus convenient when articles are nearby.
  3. bionik
    bionik 25 February 2016 07: 25 New
    22
    Sergey Ivanovich Mosin 1849 - 1902
  4. bionik
    bionik 25 February 2016 07: 30 New
    13
    Soviet soldier kisses a sniper rifle Mosin during the delivery of weapons.
  5. alex-cn
    alex-cn 25 February 2016 07: 32 New
    +5
    Here, a few days ago, a photograph from Syria - a militia, with a carbine 44goda, with an integral bayonet! I'll try to find!
  6. bionik
    bionik 25 February 2016 07: 32 New
    +4
    Assembling carbines of the Mosin system at the Izhevsk Machine-Building Plant.
  7. aszzz888
    aszzz888 25 February 2016 07: 34 New
    +5
    A magnificent - and still - a weapon! Truly standing in the forefront of the number and quality of manufactured rifles unsurpassed!
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 25 February 2016 09: 37 New
      -1
      The Mauser-1898 rifle (Gewehr 98) appeared in 98.
      She will probably be cooler than Mosinki.
      As a hunting and sporting gun is still used.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Bosk
        Bosk 25 February 2016 09: 53 New
        13
        The steepness of the 98th lies in the fact that it is better known in the world than "Mosin", again, do not forget that the "German product" in the world itself is put higher, but in technical terms these are rifles of the same level, as it was necessary to shoot and the difference did not feel great.
        1. karbine
          karbine 25 February 2016 21: 05 New
          -5
          Quote: Bosk
          I had to shoot like that and didn’t feel the big difference.

          The Mauser had 2 main problems.
          1. Shutter. The shutter is better than a Russian rifle, but overall sucks. Suitable for hunting, not for war.
          2. Cartridge. The paradox is that the Wehrmacht was the ONLY army that did not have a rifle cartridge. Absent as a class. And the Wehrmacht did ONLY only with a machine-gun cartridge. It is for this reason that German MGs are incorrectly called single machine guns; there are no single machine guns on a machine gun cartridge. These are shortened easel machine guns in various variations.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Bosk
            Bosk 25 February 2016 21: 20 New
            +5
            Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that MG is still a single machine gun, from my point of view, if not the very first, then one of the first precisely uniform machine guns. After all, what’s the matter here, the main thing in a single machine gun is not the cartridge but the versatility of application, here we see on the example of the same MG42 that it could be used both from the bipod and on the machine, again we do not forget the easily replaceable barrel ..., in this is the main difference between single machine guns from manual and easel ...
            1. karbine
              karbine 25 February 2016 21: 45 New
              -5
              Quote: Bosk
              but it seems to me MG is still a single machine gun, from my point of view, so if it's not the very first then one of the first precisely unified machine guns.

              If you have a desire, then you can call it "German unified machine gun". Because the generally accepted single machine gun in those days was somewhat different.
              Quote: Bosk
              After all, what’s the matter here, the main thing in a single machine gun is not the cartridge but the versatility of application, here we see on the example of the same MG42 that it could be used both from the bipod and on the machine

              An easel machine gun mounted on a bipod is called an easel machine gun on a bipod. A single machine gun delivered to the machine is called a single machine gun on the machine. The cartridge used, here is the fundamental difference between them.
              Quote: Bosk
              again, easily replaceable barrel do not forget ...

              What is this about? Not a specific option.
              Quote: Bosk
              this is the main difference between single machine guns from manual and easel ...

              In the cartridge, first of all.
              1. gladcu2
                gladcu2 4 March 2016 02: 44 New
                0
                karbin

                How do you succeed in flogging complete nonsense with a pseudo-scientific style.

                Seriously, you have amazing abilities. You are like Jim Carrey in a movie, but you are from the realm of expression. Both comedians.
          3. alpamys
            alpamys 25 February 2016 21: 27 New
            +3
            Quote: karbine
            Quote: Bosk
            I had to shoot like that and didn’t feel the big difference.

            The Mauser had 2 main problems.
            1. Shutter. The shutter is better than a Russian rifle, but overall sucks. Suitable for hunting, not for war.
            2. Cartridge. The paradox is that the Wehrmacht was the ONLY army that did not have a rifle cartridge. Absent as a class. And the Wehrmacht did ONLY only with a machine-gun cartridge. It is for this reason that German MGs are incorrectly called single machine guns; there are no single machine guns on a machine gun cartridge. These are shortened easel machine guns in various variations.

            this is nonsense belay
            But nothing that the MG34 / 42 was made under the Mauser rifle cartridge? and what is the difference between a machine gun cartridge and the guilty one ??????
            1. karbine
              karbine 25 February 2016 21: 47 New
              0
              Quote: alpamys
              But nothing that the MG34 / 42 was made under the Mauser rifle cartridge?

              This is nonsense. There was no rifle cartridge in the Wehrmacht. It was a machine gun (a separate type of rifle).
              Quote: alpamys
              and what is the difference between a machine gun cartridge and the guilty one ??????

              You, or make a verdict. Or ask questions. All together will not work. Therefore, learn the materiel. Learn the differences, understand what the conversation is about.
            2. gross kaput
              gross kaput 25 February 2016 22: 33 New
              +3
              Quote: alpamys
              What is the difference between a machine gun cartridge and a guilty one ??????

              This clown alludes to cartridges with heavy and light bullets, in Germany, initially there were two S cartridges with a light bullet weighing 10 grams for rifles and an SS with a heavy 12,8 bullet for heavy machine guns, the Germans refused the S bullet only this was repeatedly banned miracle does not know that the Germans did not abandon the light rifle bullet as such - instead of the cartridge with the S bullet for rifles, cartridges with the SmE bullet with a steel core were adopted, so this clown simply does not know that the Germans did not abandon the light bullet as such, but simply reduced the cost production and at the same time increased penetration. But what about the use of machine gun cartridges with SS bullets in rifles? but in any way, in principle it is possible but comrades fascists from something sculpted on the boxes with them the stencil "fur MG" - that is, for machine guns. laughing
              1. karbine
                karbine 25 February 2016 23: 37 New
                -2
                Quote: gross kaput
                This clown

                What is this? One that is funny and with a strange name Big Scribe?
                Quote: gross kaput
                bullets with heavy and light bullets

                Yeah, i.e. you understood the essence of my lectures in 2-3 weeks of study. I am amazed. I did not expect such success from you. It seems you can’t give any hope.
                Quote: gross kaput
                in Germany

                Great, we switched to Germany. About Britain, after I poked you with a face there, will you not write? I don’t think so. Then, let's move on to Germany. Since you want to poke here a couple of times ... Well, you know.
                Quote: gross kaput
                instead of a cartridge with an S bullet for rifles, cartridges with a SmE bullet with a steel core were adopted

                Those. 11,53g bullet, is it a rifle? Can I laugh right now? No, Big Scribe, this time again you did not manage to get out.
                This time it turned out not so shamefully as with the British Mk.VII rifle bullet weighing 9,53 g, the existence of which you did not know and assured that the British from the Anfields shot a Mk.VIII machine gun bullet weighing 11,34 g. But it also turned out funny.
                By the way, Scribe. Have you noticed the strange similarity in the weight of the British Mk.VIII machine gun bullet (11,34g) with your supposedly "German light rifle bullet" SmE weighing 11,53g? No? And I noticed. SmE and SS, these are 2 bullets of a German machine gun cartridge. You can also use the armor-piercing SmK weighing also 11,53g in the "light rifle burn".
                There is no need to "invent facts" again. I'm tired already.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      3. tchoni
        tchoni 25 February 2016 10: 40 New
        +8
        Mauser has a number of advantages over the three-ruler, both in terms of ease of use and purely constructive ones.
        like a "bent" bolt handle, a slightly more comfortable grip when shooting,
        a more progressive cartridge with a groove instead of a flange; a two-row magazine with a staggered arrangement of cartridges.
        But, all these advantages are uncritical and insignificant. The rifles themselves are very close both in ideology and in consumer properties.
        By the way, rifles based on the three-ruler are quite often found in hunting weapon stores now.
        And during the Balkan showdown, and other fraternal get-togethers, in the press of the armory it was the order of publications of "practicing" snipers, dedicated to the advantages of the mosinka over the SVD precisely as a sniper rifle.
      4. sibiryouk
        sibiryouk 25 February 2016 11: 10 New
        +3
        Fundamentally, the same thing, differences in small details - flag fuse, butt shape, bent shutter handle, another caliber 7.92.
        1. shasherin.pavel
          shasherin.pavel 25 February 2016 19: 35 New
          +5
          I already wrote about the caliber measurement system more than once: Russian gunsmiths measure caliber by the internal parts of the barrel, where two tenths are + cut, that is, if we measure the bullet, we get 7, 82 mm. But the bullet speed is 7,62 = 804 m / s., And the initial energy is 3814 J., and Mauser = 737 m / s., The initial energy is 3490 m / s. At three hundred meters 2167 J. and 1972 J., respectively.
          1. marshes
            marshes 25 February 2016 19: 52 New
            0
            Quote: shasherin.pavel
            cutting, that is, if you measure the bullet, we get 7, 82 mm

            Like a German Kurz? laughing
            as well as TT cartridges, they approached Mauser BOLO, the Bolshevik. laughing
            There is a difference in hundredths. smile
            By the way, according to the reference book of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, there, not only in caliber 7.63 but also in 9 luger, they produced pistols, and in other calibers, even Browning 9x17.
          2. alpamys
            alpamys 25 February 2016 21: 01 New
            0
            Quote: shasherin.pavel
            I have already written about the caliber measurement system more than once: Russian gunsmiths measure the caliber by the internal parts of the barrel, where two tenths are + cut, that is, if we measure the bullet, we get 7, 82 mm. .

            Mauser bullet has 8.2mm
          3. gross kaput
            gross kaput 25 February 2016 22: 41 New
            +3
            Quote: shasherin.pavel
            that is, if you measure the bullet, we get 7, 82 mm

            and if we take a micrometer and measure it, we get 7,92 - 0,05 smile
        2. gross kaput
          gross kaput 25 February 2016 22: 40 New
          +2
          Quote: sibiryouk
          In principle, the same

          Duc "pryntsypialno" and Berdanka the same - it also has a longitudinally sliding bolt,
          and if not "in principle" then bolt action groups of the Mauser type are still used in many even modern rifles, but for some reason the Mosinsky is not endowed with such popularity, maybe because there are really serious differences? laughing
          1. kumaxa
            kumaxa 26 February 2016 11: 36 New
            0
            just need to see who produces this popular hunting weapon. all the same Mauser!
      5. Slavs69
        Slavs69 25 February 2016 11: 14 New
        12
        Quote: voyaka uh
        As a hunting and sporting gun is still used.

        The mosquito is also still used as a hunting weapon (KO-44, KO-91 \ 30M). And the honor and pleasure of owning KO-44 are chalk (the stamp of 1947 on the barrel). He rightly procured the beast until the trunk resource came out completely (the range of bullets went incredible). Is it abruptly because German?
      6. Squelcher
        Squelcher 25 February 2016 13: 03 New
        +3
        But Mosinka is still used, by special units as a sniper :) In the above privacy, you will give it to some SGA police services.
      7. Now we are free
        Now we are free 25 February 2016 15: 03 New
        +9
        Quote: voyaka uh
        In 1898, the Mauser-98 rifle (Gewehr 98) appeared. It will probably be abruptly Mosinki. As a hunting and sporting gun is still used.

        Greetings Alexey hi
        It would be strange to leave such a comment with your technical knowledge ... It would have been painted more technical than Mauser 98 / K98 MUCH rifle Mosin.
      8. The comment was deleted.
      9. alpamys
        alpamys 25 February 2016 18: 05 New
        +2
        Quote: voyaka uh
        The Mauser-1898 rifle (Gewehr 98) appeared in 98.
        She will probably be cooler than Mosinki.
        As a hunting and sporting gun is still used.

        before K98, the Germans released the G88 circuit almost Mosinskaya
      10. shasherin.pavel
        shasherin.pavel 25 February 2016 19: 16 New
        +5
        Quote: voyaka uh
        perhaps it will be abruptly Mosinki.

        According to the memoirs of veterans, snipers sometimes preferred the Mauser, but only because the shot from it was quieter and the flame was less when fired. But in terms of accuracy at a long range, Mauser was close to SVT-40, that is, a satisfactory sighting range of 600 meters. German snipers also write about this. And in the Red Army there were shooters who shot from Mosinka at 1000 meters. You can also recall the Polish writer author "Four tankmen and a dog", where an officer of the old army notes the sound of the bolt at the three-line, and the dripping of the Polish Army says: "It knocks, but at least a handful of sand in the breech was blown off and shoot further."
      11. karbine
        karbine 25 February 2016 20: 50 New
        -2
        Quote: voyaka uh
        The Mauser-1898 rifle (Gewehr 98) appeared in 98.
        She will probably be cooler than Mosinki.

        Abruptly. But also garbage. The second behind the European. Immediately over the Russian.
        Quote: voyaka uh
        As a hunting and sporting gun is still used.

        And it was necessary army. This is the whole hitch.
      12. The comment was deleted.
      13. semirek
        semirek 25 February 2016 20: 58 New
        +2
        In Russia, the farther to the north, the more three-ruled lines, of course illegal, but any self-respecting northern hunter, somewhere in the taiga outside Khanty-Mansiysk, has a Mosin rifle.
      14. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok April 1 2016 10: 57 New
        +1
        Quote: voyaka uh
        The Mauser-1898 rifle (Gewehr 98) appeared in 98.
        She will probably be cooler than Mosinki.
        As a hunting and sporting gun is still used.

        1. Three are still used as hunting;
        2. Sports ??? storyteller however
        What's better? The fact that it was created 7 years later and therefore corrected 2 inconveniences, namely, a direct charging handle and a fuse that requires a lot of effort. But this is the drawback of all the first shops. For some reason, other problems appeared, in particular, the fragile ejector, which breaks if the cartridge is placed immediately in the chamber and the shutter is closed. Such a Mauser himself once held in his hands ...
    2. karbine
      karbine 25 February 2016 20: 48 New
      -3
      Quote: aszzz888
      A magnificent - and still - a weapon! Truly standing in the forefront of the number and quality of manufactured rifles unsurpassed!

      In count. More special advantages are not observed.
      1. xan
        xan 25 February 2016 21: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: karbine
        In count. More special advantages are not observed.

        read the discussion above, maybe you’ll get something.
        1. karbine
          karbine 25 February 2016 21: 51 New
          -3
          Quote: xan
          read the discussion above, maybe you’ll get something.

          Is it just fleas. And I do not need them.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  8. Per se.
    Per se. 25 February 2016 07: 48 New
    +8
    On the sniper version of the rifle, an elongated and curved bolt handle was used, mainly for the possibility of reloading with the optics attached to the rifle. But what was difficult to equip all rifles after modernization in the 30s with a bent grip bolt? The curved and elongated bolt handle firstly reduced the very force on the bolt when reloading, and, most importantly, it made it possible to fire with reloading without interrupting the aiming line. For example, the Germans made a curved handle on all their Mauser 98K, with which the entire Wehrmacht fought. The costs are low, the efficiency is increasing, it is a pity that the bent handle on the Mosinka has become the property of only snipers.
    1. zoknyay82
      zoknyay82 25 February 2016 08: 46 New
      +4
      Apparently there was not enough time and money to improve the "mosinka". The "kurts" had a much more convenient fuse, but the war was going on, there was no time for that.
    2. Ivan Tartugai
      Ivan Tartugai 28 February 2016 18: 25 New
      +2
      Quote: Per se
      The costs are low, the efficiency is increasing, it is a pity that the bent handle on the Mosinka has become the property of only snipers.


      Of course, the location of the shutter handle of the Mauser 98k is more ergonomic and aesthetically pleasing than that of the 1891/30 rifle. But such a solution to the shutter handle, as in the Mauser 98k, is more effective only if the fighting will take place in fairly warm weather + 8 ° C and above, i.e. so that the fighter’s fingers do not freeze or are protected by quality-made gloves. What is almost impossible to provide at a temperature of about ―10 ° С and lower even with gloves.
      In cold weather, especially below 0 ° C, when shooting in three-toed mittens, the efficiency of firing from a rifle of the 1891/30 sample, the famous Mosinki, is significantly higher than that of the Mauser 98k.
  9. parusnik
    parusnik 25 February 2016 07: 50 New
    +6
    Served "Mosinka" ... and served well .. Thank you ..
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. bionik
      bionik 25 February 2016 08: 14 New
      +5
      Quote: parusnik
      well served .. thanks ..

      And in the sniper version she was in the service right up to 1963, until they adopted the SVD.
  10. gla172
    gla172 25 February 2016 07: 54 New
    26
    About the Mosin rifle (three-ruler).
    M16 - Wedge when dirty.
    AK47 - Works when dirty.
    Trehlineyka - It has not been clean since the moment of issuance of troops in 1891

    М16 - Hundreds of moving parts fastened with dozens of bolts and screws.
    AK47 - A pair of dozens of moving parts held together by a handful of rivets and the ugly seams of a drunken Russian welder.
    Trilinek - three moving parts, two screws.


    M16 - You would rather die than break your expensive rifle in hand-to-hand combat.
    AK47 - with your automatic machine you can fight well in hand-to-hand combat.
    Three-ruler - Your rifle is a cool spear with the ability to shoot.

    M16 - If the firing pin breaks, you send the rifle to the factory under warranty.
    AK47 - If the striker breaks, you buy a new one.
    Trilinek - If the hammer breaks, you twist it a couple of turns further into the bolt.

    М16 - More difficult to manufacture than many airplanes.
    AK47 - Used by countries that have no money for airplanes.
    Trilinek - Aircraft were shot down from it.

    М16 - The butt melts under a magnifying glass.
    AK47 - Under the magnifying glass, you can consider Vietnamese dirt that is still working instead of lubrication.
    Three-line - Under the magnifying glass you can see the impregnated tree BLOOD.

    Owner's favorite drink:
    M16 - Cognac.
    AK47 - Vodka.
    Trilinear - Brake fluid drained along the frozen trunk.

    M16 - Makes a small hole, all neatly, in accordance with the Geneva Convention.
    AK47 - Makes a big hole, sometimes tears off limbs, does not comply with the Geneva Convention.
    Trilinek - One of the reasons for creating the Geneva Convention.

    М16 - Excellent shoots small rodents.
    AK47 - Perfectly shoots the enemies of the revolution.
    Trilinek - Excellent shoots light equipment.

    М16 - Once in the river, it stops working.
    AK47 - Once in the river, it still shoots.
    Three-ruler - Once in a river, it is usually used as a paddle.

    М16 - Weapons for defense.
    AK47 - Weapons for attack.
    Trilinek - Victory Weapons!

    М16 - A podstvolnik is heavy, but it can put a grenade out the window for 200 meters.
    AK47 - If anything, a grenade from a grenade launcher can be thrown into the window by hand.
    Three-line - Grenade out the window? Hit through the wall, the cartridge pierces almost a meter of brick.

    М16 - You can put a silencer, a small cartridge does not give a lot of sound.
    AK47 - In principle, you can put a silencer, but it’s better just to press enemies to the ground with continuous fire.
    Three-line - Nafig silencer, when after the first shot everything will go deaf in any way?
    1. erased
      erased 25 February 2016 08: 57 New
      10
      Everyone was waiting to post this text. I already wanted it myself.
    2. Mr. Pip
      Mr. Pip 25 February 2016 09: 39 New
      -3
      Quote: gla172
      Trilinek - Aircraft were shot down from it.

      Judging by the enchanting description, the Russian heroes lost their butt in a melee attack - there is no need to spend ammo on any louse laughing
      1. sibiryouk
        sibiryouk 25 February 2016 11: 04 New
        0
        Rocket "BUK", also shot down!
      2. erased
        erased 25 February 2016 13: 02 New
        +7
        It seems that by the fall of 1942, volley fire was fired at low-flying enemy aircraft. Also, a special order allowed fire from light and heavy machine guns. The effectiveness of this was not very high, but Fritzevsky airplanes fell. In addition, the infantry fire was driven away by attack aircraft and dive bombers, and forced to bomb aimlessly.
        So the Mosin rifle showed itself here too.
        1. bionik
          bionik 25 February 2016 14: 10 New
          +8
          Quote: erased
          It seems that by the fall of 1942, volley fire was fired at low-flying enemy aircraft.

          Senior Lieutenant F.D. Snipers Lunin conduct volley fire on enemy aircraft.
  11. Igor39
    Igor39 25 February 2016 08: 08 New
    +8
    Versions
  12. qwert
    qwert 25 February 2016 12: 48 New
    +2
    Quote: erased
    Everyone was waiting to post this text. I already wanted it myself.

    Same. There was simply no time to search. I immediately remembered about him when I read the article)
  13. snc
    snc 25 February 2016 13: 17 New
    +7
    Forgot to mention that due to the design of the shutter with large gaps, Mosinka was superior in reliability to classmates. Lee Anfield had the advantage of a detachable 10-round magazine, but the British charged her, however, also from the clips on top.
    1. shasherin.pavel
      shasherin.pavel 25 February 2016 19: 49 New
      +1
      Quote: snc
      Lee Enfield had an advantage

      if you pull the trigger with your middle finger and jerk the shutter with your index and anonymous fingers, then the rate of fire can be brought to 30 v / m. And this is not a bike, it was practically shown by modern shooters on television.
      1. semirek
        semirek 25 February 2016 21: 04 New
        +2
        It's like Said from the white sun of the desert, remember? where he gives a doublet with one hand from under the horse.
      2. karbine
        karbine 25 February 2016 22: 00 New
        -1
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        And this is not a bike, it was practically shown by modern shooters on television.

        Focus on the NSD, not the circus performers.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. karbine
      karbine 25 February 2016 21: 58 New
      -3
      Quote: snc
      Forgot to mention that due to the design of the shutter with large gaps, Mosinka was superior in reliability to classmates.

      It did not add reliability at all. But for this (and not only) reason, the Russian rifle gave a fire density 2 times less than Anfield and 1,5 times less than Mauser.
  14. otto meer
    otto meer 25 February 2016 13: 53 New
    +4
    Quote: snc
    but the British charged it, nevertheless, also from the clips above.
    Everything is very simple, although the rifle had a detachable store, but it was issued only one for the rifle (such a delivery set), the rest in packs. T.ch. in England there are also enough fools. smile
  15. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 25 February 2016 14: 17 New
    +3
    And there’s such a saying-SIMPLE (AY) AS A THREE-LINE. What always distinguishes Russian weapons is simplicity, reliability, efficiency. It only begins to reach the capitalists when resources run out during the war (English sten for example).
    1. karbine
      karbine 25 February 2016 22: 02 New
      -2
      Quote: Dimon19661
      What is always different Russian weapons-simplicity, reliability, efficiency

      Do not fantasize. I heard about the same thing about Moskvich when the Zhiguli just appeared. However, opinion quickly changed.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  16. marshes
    marshes 25 February 2016 16: 10 New
    0
    It’s not a big question, they showed it on the STAR. The accuracy of the shooting was also provided by the four-sided bayonet, figured +, like a zahivernie. And it said that shooting was required with a bayonet. Then there were options that the shelf could be fired without a bayonet, as there is a half-carbine, carbine .
    Up to the 60s, breeders had carbines, then changed to a single-barrel 16, the mosin’s carbine, dry, I would say. Kurts and Springfield are more comfortable weapons for hunting.
    But I dream of a RUGER MINI-14 self-charger under 7.62x39.
  17. tolancop
    tolancop 25 February 2016 16: 45 New
    +3
    I read the commentary comparing the three-line and 98K and immediately remembered an episode from the old Polish film "4 Poles, Georgians and a Dog". The episode is this: a Polish officer stomps out of captivity and met his former subordinate, who was fighting against the Germans. We sat for a while. The officer picks up a three-ruler, twitched the bolt and ".. knocks, our Mauser did not knock ..." to which he received an immediate answer "But he is not afraid of any dirt .." (I cannot guarantee the accuracy of the quote, but I can guarantee the meaning).
    IMHO, "not afraid of dirt" is one of the characteristic features of Russian (Soviet) weapons.
  18. kalibr
    kalibr 25 February 2016 16: 59 New
    0
    But contrary to the tradition prevailing in all countries to assign the inventor the name of a weapon, the Mosin rifle remained nameless. The Minister of War in his submission proposed to name her "Russian rifle of the 1891 model of the year." But the king did not even agree with this. He crossed out the word “Russian” and “deigned to command the highest: to name this rifle a three-line rifle of the 1891 model of the year”.
    What a bad king! But in fact, another repeatedly propagated myth like the drowning of knights in the Peipsi flood. In fact, everything was a bit wrong .. But the devil, as you know, is in the details.
    1. shasherin.pavel
      shasherin.pavel 25 February 2016 19: 57 New
      -1
      Quote: kalibr
      What a bad king!

      From Alexander I to Nicholas II, not a single king could believe that the Russians were capable of inventing something and looked into the mouth of foreigners. And what problems did Soviet inventors have: do foreigners have an analogue? not! Sorry, wait until something like this appears abroad, then compare and accept. Well, at least the military ... and there were enough problems when comparing with foreign equipment.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 25 February 2016 20: 26 New
        +5
        You do not know Russian history well! Just under Alexander the Third, the attitude to Russian history, Russian inventors, and in general everything Russian was put at the forefront! What were the names of the Russian battleships launched into it? What uniform did he introduce in the army? There were simply reasons why he could not do otherwise. But I want to write about this myself ... and with the details!
    2. moskowit
      moskowit 25 February 2016 20: 54 New
      +2
      Indeed, it is very difficult to believe that Alexander the Peacemaker, an adherent of everything Russian, who dressed the army in the most comfortable uniform of the Russian style, so categorically stood up for the "namelessness" of the rifle, without any particular reason. The answer can be found in the book by V. Fedorov (the father of the machine gun) "History of the rifle". The book was published in 1940. It is easy to find it on the net ... In it, our renowned gunsmith gives a fully substantiated analysis of the authorship of rifle assemblies and parts based on the conclusions of the commission and Mosin himself.
      I wanted to put excerpts from the text, but the book was published in a format that does not allow this to be done ... Or I just don’t know how to work with this format ...
  19. DimYang
    DimYang 25 February 2016 17: 40 New
    +3
    He shot from the sniper version in the shooting range when he was a boy, really liked it. Even though the shoulder hurt and was blue. Accurate reliable weapons. Decommissioned from the army and given to the DOSAAF shooting gallery. Yes, there was time in the Union. Now I don’t even know how it’s not before.
  20. engineer
    engineer 25 February 2016 17: 42 New
    +4
    the weapon is beautiful. but there is no limit to perfection. waiting for gaussovok and blasters.
  21. aiw
    aiw 25 February 2016 18: 21 New
    +5
    "She was distinguished by such a perfect design that she quickly gained recognition not only at home, but also abroad."

    Mdya ... the three-ruler was created under the cartridge with a rim, for which the technological tolerances are lower. The domestic industry was not ready for the production of weapons under a partron without a collar. How many then our gunsmiths racked their brains when designing a power supply system for tape machine guns ...

    The bolt handle of the mosinka is not ergonomic, the length and weight with the bayonet are excessive. For comparison, "The bolt group is also of Lee's design, but with improvements of the Anfield arsenal. The bolt handle is located in its rear part and is bent down. The bolt is locked by two lugs in the rear part of the bolt, behind the cutouts in the receiver. This locking somewhat reduces the length and the working stroke of the shutter, which, coupled with a conveniently located loading handle and a relatively large magazine, provides a high practical rate of fire - trained British soldiers could fire up to 30 aimed shots per minute! Such a rate of fire during the First World War more than once gave the advancing Germans the impression of machine-gun fire - and against them were only infantry with rifles. " - http://world.guns.ru/rifle/repeating-rifle/brit/smle-lee-enfield-r.html (about Lee-Enfield).

    Reliability and manufacturability yes ... but singing praises as a unique weapon in terms of performance characteristics is not worth it. But those who fought with her and won - yes, true Heroes.
    1. tchoni
      tchoni 25 February 2016 21: 00 New
      +3
      Quote: aiw
      Such locking slightly reduces the length and stroke of the shutter, which, together with a conveniently located loading handle and a relatively large capacity magazine, provides high practical rate of fire - trained British soldiers could fire up to 30 aimed shots per minute! Similar

      A soldier with a mosinka - 25 shots :-) Healing the rate of fire for five shots is, of course, powerful! Crushes the illusion of machine-gun fire.
      Lee Enfield was charged the same way as the mosquito - with five rounds of clips, so the combination of actions was almost the same. the gain was only in that ten shots accounted for one less cycle of opening-closing the shutter. The rest was given by the ergonomic shutter handle and its shorter stroke. But, these were only insignificant moments that the average shooter had a result that, I think, would have turned out to be approximately the same.
      Lee-enfield weighed almost as much as a mosquito, and was designed for the same cartridge with a hem.
      I’ll even say a little more. The Americans, switching to the automatic springfield rifle and leaving a charge, were able to raise the rate of fire to 40-45 rounds per minute. no more
      1. karbine
        karbine 25 February 2016 22: 17 New
        -1
        Quote: tchoni
        A soldier with a cap of arms - 25 shots

        why 25? Write already 250. To fantasize, so to fantasize (see the attached picture from the NSD of the Russian rifle).
        Quote: tchoni
        The Americans, switching to the automatic springfield rifle and leaving a charge, were able to raise the rate of fire to 40-45 rounds per minute. no more

        The M14 rifle is automatic only in RuNet. Just like ABC with ABT. Actually this is selective-fire rifle, i.e. self-loading rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire. Those. something like AKM, but cooler. A selective-fire weapon rate of fire is usually 40-60 rounds per minute.
        1. tchoni
          tchoni 25 February 2016 22: 40 New
          0
          Correct correctly m1 garand instead of springfield :-) (case, my mistake).

          And about the rate of fire - talk with the owners. The acquaintance’s carbine based on a mosquito seems to be called a VPO, so he dropped a clip from him for six to five seconds. True, for the sake of justice, it is worth saying that the handle of the shutter there is a curve and the caliber is not standard.
          1. karbine
            karbine 25 February 2016 22: 48 New
            -1
            Quote: tchoni
            Correct already correctly m1 garand instead of springfield

            I should have meant it by the "springfield automatic rifle"?
            But it is self-loading. And she has a rate of fire of 25 (I don’t remember exactly, so I can be wrong) shots per minute.
            Quote: tchoni
            The acquaintance’s carbine based on a mosquito seems to be called a VPO, so he dropped a clip from him for six to five seconds.

            This is his problems. There is NSD. This is an official document.
            Quote: tchoni
            True, for the sake of justice, it is worth saying that the handle of the shutter there is a curve and the caliber is not standard.

            Who knows, who is there and what has been revealed.
            1. tchoni
              tchoni 26 February 2016 08: 14 New
              +1
              Read the story of the adoption of the very M-1 guarantee for arming. What kind of experiments did the Americans do when comparing springfield with garand? What kind of rate did the soldiers show?
              About the name - I repeat - my mistake - I repent - when I wrote, I was impressed by the celebration of February 23.
              And who won what - so, in my opinion, the Vyatka factory tried to hammer.
              1. carbine
                carbine 26 February 2016 23: 09 New
                -4
                Quote: tchoni
                Read the story of the adoption of the very M-1 guarantee for arming. What kind of experiments did the Americans do when comparing springfield with garand? What kind of rate did the soldiers show at the same time?

                You spoil your eyes in vain and read fairy tales. There is NSD, read them. This is a document. And the rest is tyrnete fantasies.
                1. tchoni
                  tchoni 1 March 2016 15: 10 New
                  +1
                  What are you riveted to my eyes? -) They clearly saw that from the three-ruler REALLY shoot 20-25 times per minute. And here are the official papers? Are you sure that the methodology for testing the rifle at a rate of fire was the same in different countries and even within the same country? Someone is testing as part of a company and on command, someone individually. Someone takes an average zzoldat, someone is a specialist, beside riflemen who has never done anything. Then they write different numbers in different reference books. And, still, the numerals in the directories are accused of political and other addictions of the author. So read fairy tales and think about them. Sometimes they are a storehouse of wisdom. And then a pure theory, it is dry ...
            2. tchoni
              tchoni 26 February 2016 09: 51 New
              0
              a little more about rate of fire. Found a piece of video. Direct shutter. High-speed shooting from the Mosin Rifle: https://youtu.be/lE9EDKuN7vc
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. AK64
      AK64 25 February 2016 23: 31 New
      +5
      Mdya ... the three-ruler was created under the cartridge with a rim, for which the technological tolerances are lower. The domestic industry was not ready for the production of weapons under a partron without a collar.


      You will be surprised, but Lee Enfield to whom you sing praises here also works on cartridges with a rim. Yes Yes.

      How many then our gunsmiths racked their brains when designing a power supply system for tape machine guns ...

      So did they "break"? Did you break anything?

      The bolt handle of the mosinka is not ergonomic, the length and weight with the bayonet are excessive. For comparison, "The bolt group is also designed by Lee, but with improvements in the Anfield arsenal. The bolt handle is located in its rear part and is bent down. The bolt is locked by two lugs in the rear part of the bolt, behind the cutouts in the receiver. This locking somewhat reduces the length and the working stroke of the bolt, which, coupled with a conveniently located loading handle and a relatively large magazine, provides a high practical rate of fire - trained British soldiers could fire up to 30 aimed shots per minute! Such a rate of fire during the First World War more than once gave the advancing Germans the impression of machine-gun fire - and against them were only infantry with rifles. "

      Firstly, such fast music played for a very short time, and as soon as the professionals were dissolved in the mass appeal, the high-speed shooting ended. That is, the point is not in the screw itself, but in the professionalism of users.
      Secondly, the British themselves were not at all delighted with their shutter, and believed that "the Germans have a lot of ours better." And not without reason. There were reasons for that too lazy to go into.
      Thirdly, about the working move - crap: the working move is slightly shorter than Mauserny - due to the locking features of the latter. For three, the locking was also on the receiver and the shutter speed was determined only by the length of the cartridge.
      Fourth, it would be nice to understand that Britain was then Razikov at 6 was richer than Russia, and 50 years more developed as a minimum (yes, perhaps a hundred or more). With all the consequences.

      So do not look down on the ancestors - they made a very good rifle for своих of opportunities.
      1. aiw
        aiw 26 February 2016 22: 57 New
        +1
        "You will be surprised, but Lee Anfield, to whom you sing the praises here, also works on rimmed cartridges. Yes, yes."

        I know. And what, ALL rifles of that time were made under a cartridge with a rim? I'm not talking about 2MB and up to the present

        "So they broke it? Didn't they break anything?"

        If you don’t know, then chew rather than speak. Well, or walk about direct feed for example ...

        "So don't look down on your ancestors - they made a very good rifle for their capabilities."

        What I'm talking about - there are two big differences between "a good rifle for its capabilities" and "the best weapon in the world." I do not argue with the first, the second is an obvious nonsense.
        1. AK64
          AK64 27 February 2016 00: 51 New
          +3
          I know. And what, ALL rifles of that time were made under a cartridge with a rim? I'm not talking about 2MB and up to the present

          As we see, the leading industrial power of that time - Britain - did not complex at all. So what are your current facilities?

          Making trunks is a very painful process. And if the flange on the cartridge allows you to reduce the percentage of rejects from 50% to 20№ - then you need to make a flange and not bother. And if it decreases from 30% to 20%, then it is also necessary. The percentage of defects in the production of trunks was already huge.

          Everything is exactly like that: a banal economic calculation. And the flange does not affect the ballistics (whatever the "experts" of the "carbine" type say there).

          If you don’t know, then chew rather than speak. Well, or walk about direct feed for example ...


          You are stupid and rude, that’s what.
          Compared to the rejection of the barrels - the organization of the cartridge supply in the machine gun is a trifle. Moreover, you will certainly not believe it, but the "two-story" feed has its own advantages. Among them, for example, the self-cleaning of the cartridge.

          In addition, the sleeve is anyway conical - you look at the drawings of the cartridges on occasion. Conical sleeves. Of course, they do it for flashing, but it has its drawbacks.

          What I'm talking about - there are two big differences between "a good rifle for its capabilities" and "the best weapon in the world." I do not argue with the first, the second is an obvious nonsense.


          About "The best in the world" came up with the same as you - that is, lamers. Engineers look at the criteria. There is no "best in the world": there is always a set of criteria that more or less satisfies, and according to which the "best" can be. "best" without specifying criteria is just chatter. Any technical product is created for conditions and criteria.

          So the three are ingenious precisely because Mosin piled a device that meets the criteria perfectly.

          I explain: all countries then began to sculpt army multi-exercises. But NOBODY, except for Mosin, was able at the first attempt to create a screw so that the two worlds passed. That is, they created good rifles - the same Lee Anfield - but not on the first try! With the exception of Lebel and three, Everything that was created the first time was discontinued before the WWII. But Lebel is byak. (And by the way with the flange you hate, and also the insanely conical sleeve - and as soon as these French soldiers made machine guns, huh?)

          All first pancakes came out more or less lumpy.
          That is, Mosim by some miracle, on the first attempt, built a rifle that satisfactorily worked for 60 years. This is genius.
          1. carbine
            carbine 27 February 2016 01: 45 New
            -2
            Quote: AK64
            And the flange does not affect the ballistics (whatever the "experts" of the "carbine" type say there).

            Bah. Yes, you, dear, have already descended to frank slander. I would be with you for 1 square. ms * at did not sit down. Nope. And do not dream. You are not worthy of such happiness.
            Quote: AK64
            So the three are brilliant precisely because Mosin piled a device that meets the criteria perfectly

            Whom? You? So you are not the standard. But the fact that the three-ruler was the most sloppy European instance is a fact.
            Quote: AK64
            But NOBODY, except for Mosin, was able at the first attempt to create a screw so that the two worlds passed.

            Those. again shovel higher, faster, stronger. But performance characteristics are not important.
            In addition, Anfield was not discontinued due to its advancement. Three of the production because of its slop removed. But they made it worse (SVT-40). Therefore, they returned. Will you compare forced abandonment with deliberate abandonment in production? I do not recommend it.
            Quote: AK64
            then created the first time

            Full crap, not a criterion.
          2. AK64
            AK64 27 February 2016 05: 15 New
            +1
            I correctly understood that the minus is the recognition that there is no reason to argue on the topic, argued,

            Well, let's set off the slime. Less and more.
  22. Denis Skiff
    Denis Skiff 25 February 2016 19: 25 New
    -4
    Well, as they say, not a happy serf though an ox in f ... go shorter forest.
    Quote: voyaka uh
    The Mauser-1898 rifle (Gewehr 98) appeared in 98.
    She will probably be cooler than Mosinki.
    As a hunting and sporting gun is still used.
    chat and learn history


    М16 - More difficult to manufacture than many airplanes.
    AK47 - Used by countries that have no money for airplanes.
    Trilinek - Aircraft were shot down from it.
  23. karbine
    karbine 25 February 2016 20: 46 New
    -2
    It is completely incomprehensible to fuss "patriots" around the most bullshit European rifle. No, I understand, they would fight for something worthwhile. But for the three-line, somehow it is not a camilfo. However, given that they are fighting for the post-war AK, what to take from them?
    Quote: Technical Engineer
    16 April 1891, the rifle of Captain Mosin, was finally adopted by the Russian army. But contrary to the tradition that has developed in all countries, assign the name of the inventor to the weapon - the Mosinsky gun remains nameless. In his submission, the Minister of War proposed to call her the “Russian rifle of the 1891 model of the year”. But the king did not even agree with that. He crossed out the word "Russian" and "commend the deigns of the highest: to call this rifle a three-line rifle of the 1891 model of the year."

    Blah blah blah.
    Did the Nagan just run past there? And for these runs, did you receive an award for the development of a rifle? And Mosin got a gulkin's nose for adapting it to Russian production conditions. Simply put, ruined. As a result, it became easier to make it, but the performance characteristics became "none".
    Although the king had a conscience. I decided not to write what kind of rifle it was. The gentlemen of the Bolsheviks later were not so painstaking.
    1. Wheel
      Wheel 25 February 2016 20: 51 New
      +4
      Quote: karbine
      It is completely incomprehensible to fuss "patriots" around the most bullshit European rifle. No, I understand, they would fight for something worthwhile. But for the three-line, somehow it is not a camilfo. However, given that they are fighting for the post-war AK, what to take from them?

      If I am not mistaken, the sixth reincarnation of the great specialist in small arms ... laughing laughing laughing
      For how long?
      1. alexqazw
        alexqazw 29 February 2016 11: 14 New
        +1
        second new? masked bastard
    2. tchoni
      tchoni 26 February 2016 15: 55 New
      +1
      You, as I understand it, that cheaper than 100 bucks per serving is not tasty? Go sit in the field with this rifle. So, that would tire every day like a dog, so that before you fall asleep there was no energy left even to take off your shoes. Immediately there will be a correct vision of priorities.
      1. karbine
        karbine 26 February 2016 19: 16 New
        -3
        Quote: tchoni
        So, that would tire every day like a dog, so that before you fall asleep there was no energy left even to take off your shoes.

        You do not bother me with thick snot. And you will tell fables to Pushkin when the boobs grow and are sold into slavery (to the fortress).
        I know well enough common truth, the more convenient the tool, the less tired you are when working with it. From the Russian rifle tired very much. From Anfield, much less. From Mauser, somewhere in between. This is if you squeeze the same performance characteristics from them.
        Quote: tchoni
        to get tired every day like a dog

        Not a dog, but withЕtank. Dogs are especially tired. Is that barking tired. And withЕtank, this is the horse that came first at the races. In Arabic. Greetings from the days when Muscovites were Muslims. The Orthodox Church called those times the word "yoke".
        1. alexqazw
          alexqazw 29 February 2016 11: 18 New
          +1
          so you burned, protoucr.
  24. alpamys
    alpamys 25 February 2016 21: 17 New
    +2
    Manlicher M95 in my opinion is much cooler than the Mauser and the Mosin, no jerking of the handles, just pull the shutter towards you to reload
    1. AK64
      AK64 25 February 2016 22: 17 New
      +1
      Manlicher M95 in my opinion is much cooler than the Mauser and the Mosin, no jerking of the handles, just pull the shutter towards you to reload


      Manliher later, however, Mauser, however: when later, lessons can be learned from someone else's experience.
      However, I do not think that such a shutter in Russia could be massively done.

      And Manliher’s cartridge was weaker. (Which, however, is good because Russian is very redundant)

      And yes: the best PMV screw.
    2. karbine
      karbine 25 February 2016 22: 26 New
      -1
      Quote: alpamys
      Manlicher M95 in my opinion is much cooler than Mauser and Mosin

      The Austrians generally had a good school of rifle construction. Unlike the "famous Germans". In addition to Mannlicher, you can still remember Steyr on the native 9 × 23 mm Steyr cartridge.
      After 1MB, everything in those parts somehow died out. Is that Kirali with his PP during 2MV noted.
    3. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok April 1 2016 12: 18 New
      0
      Quote: alpamys
      Manlicher M95 in my opinion is much cooler than the Mauser and the Mosin, no jerking of the handles, just pull the shutter towards you to reload

      And how many times do I have to pull something to reload and not lose ammo? laughing At least take a closer look at what kind of video you upload.
      Yes, the rifle was more perfect and much younger, but at the same time more problematic.
  25. alpamys
    alpamys 25 February 2016 22: 51 New
    -1
    Quote: gross kaput
    Quote: alpamys
    What is the difference between a machine gun cartridge and a guilty one ??????

    This clown alludes to cartridges with heavy and light bullets, in Germany, initially there were two S cartridges with a light bullet weighing 10 grams for rifles and an SS with a heavy 12,8 bullet for heavy machine guns, the Germans refused the S bullet only this was repeatedly banned miracle does not know that the Germans did not abandon the light rifle bullet as such - instead of the cartridge with the S bullet for rifles, cartridges with the SmE bullet with a steel core were adopted, so this clown simply does not know that the Germans did not abandon the light bullet as such, but simply reduced the cost production and at the same time increased penetration. But what about the use of machine gun cartridges with SS bullets in rifles? but in any way, in principle it is possible but comrades fascists from something sculpted on the boxes with them the stencil "fur MG" - that is, for machine guns. laughing

    I don’t even know about different cartridges for MG and rifles, what’s the salt?
    Ps. Yesterday, the current in the dash shot with K98 1938 good
    1. alpamys
      alpamys 25 February 2016 23: 27 New
      0
      Quote: alpamys

      I don’t even know about different cartridges for MG and rifles, what’s the salt?

      I found it myself, heavy bullets were used only to combat aircraft, but not specifically for the MG.
      Für die Maschinengewehre MG34 und MG42 wurde vor allem für die Flugzeugbekämpfung das Geschoss weiterentwickelt (sS = schweres Spitzgeschoss, SmK = Spitzgeschoss mit (Stahl) Kern, SmKL = Spitzgeschoss mit (Stahl)
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 25 February 2016 23: 47 New
        +2
        Quote: alpamys
        only for fighting aircraft, but not specifically for MG

        Well, smoke, then translate the entire text and you will be happy - in this case we are talking about a typical equipment for a cartridge strip for anti-aircraft fire - a heavy bullet / armor-piercing / armor-piercing-tracing and then in the same order.
        Further with regards to
        Quote: alpamys
        specially for MG

        We open the directory of 1947. ammunition and study
        1. alpamys
          alpamys 26 February 2016 00: 12 New
          0
          Quote: gross kaput
          Quote: alpamys
          only for fighting aircraft, but not specifically for MG

          Well, smoke, then translate the entire text and you will be happy - in this case we are talking about a typical equipment for a cartridge strip for anti-aircraft fire - a heavy bullet / armor-piercing / armor-piercing-tracing and then in the same order.
          Further with regards to
          Quote: alpamys
          specially for MG

          We open the directory of 1947. ammunition and study

          studied sS-schweres Spitzgeschoß for MG and?
          read page 20.
          http://www.waffen-welt.de/bilder/DiePatrone7.92x57.pdf
          Wurde 1914 eingeführt um die Leistung des MG
          08 auf große Entfernungen zu verbessern.
          Obwohl fast zeitgleich mit der
          Patrone s
          entwickelt bestand zunäch
          st kein Bedarf an diesem
          schweren geschoß. Erst als die verwendung
          des MG immer bedeutender wurde und im
          Feuerkampf zB bei Flugzeug
          en größere Entfernungen eine
          Roller spielten, wurde das
          sS
          Geschoss
          wieder interessant.
          Bis 1918 wurde die
          Patrone sS
          fast ausschließlich der Verwendung im Luftkampf vorbehalten,
          erst ab 1918 erhielten
          auch die Maschinengewehr
          e der Infanterie die
          Patrone sS
          to
          Use.
          Es sollte bis etwa 1930 dauern, bis die
          Patrone sS
          sich soweit durchgesetzt hatte, dass sie auch
          als Standardpatrone
          für Gewehre diente

          sS was introduced to improve the firing range for the MG08, later it began to be used to combat aircraft and somewhere since 1930 as a standard rifle cartridge.
      2. AK64
        AK64 25 February 2016 23: 48 New
        0
        I found it myself, heavy bullets were used only to combat aircraft, but not specifically for the MG.


        Not quite so: a heavier bullet flies farther and retains lethal ability longer: The resistance is the same, but the mass is higher, and the acceleration of braking is lower.
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. karbine
        karbine 26 February 2016 00: 05 New
        -1
        Quote: alpamys
        I found it myself, heavy bullets were used only to combat aircraft, but not specifically for the MG.

        Weighted, these are sS. They were also used for Mauser rifles (complete insanity). Conventional for machine guns Wehrmacht were SmE (11,53 g). And there were no lungs in the Wehrmacht at all.
        In fact, independent machine-gun cartridges did not exist. There were machine gun modifications of rifle cartridges. They are with heavy bullets (Mk.VIII in the British, "D" in the USSR, SmE and sS in Germany). While ordinary rifle cartridges are lightweight (Mk.VII for the British, "L" in the USSR).
        Single machine guns in all countries were made on conventional rifle cartridges. And only in Germany the single machine guns were on machine gun cartridges.
        1. karbine
          karbine 26 February 2016 00: 09 New
          0
          I can’t post 2 photos at once, so I post the second separately.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      5. The comment was deleted.
      6. karbine
        karbine 26 February 2016 12: 14 New
        -1
        Quote: alpamys
        weighted bullets were used only to combat aircraft, but not specifically for MG.

        Apparently for the machine guns of the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine.
        1. alpamys
          alpamys 26 February 2016 20: 16 New
          0
          Quote: karbine
          Quote: alpamys
          weighted bullets were used only to combat aircraft, but not specifically for MG.

          Apparently for the machine guns of the Luftwaffe and the Kriegsmarine.

          recently fired here with such cartridges, several pieces broke through, the marking is a little incomprehensible but the SS is visible, maybe in the know what is it?


          http://s33-temporary-files.radikal.ru/0dc5384fd9eb4eff8f53ed7f06adf31e/-88693455
          .jpg
    2. gross kaput
      gross kaput 25 February 2016 23: 37 New
      +3
      the point is that they used a heavier bullet for firing from machine-gunners, which made it possible to shoot not by direct fire, over areas over long distances, almost all armies between the world wars were fond of this, for this, special fine-tuning mechanisms, automatic dispersion mechanisms, panoramas were introduced on the machines type of artillery, the calculations were specially trained to use all this economy, and for this, it required a heavier bullet with a large lateral load and, accordingly, flying further, but patro with a bullet and has a greater impact, and therefore there was a conditional division of cartridges for stankachey with severe bullet for rifles with a light, more comfortable shooting. True WWII showed that in the absence of large masses of cavalry and non-positional warfare, fire from closed positions and over long distances does not make practical sense.
      1. alpamys
        alpamys 26 February 2016 00: 29 New
        -1
        Quote: gross kaput
        the point is that they used a heavier bullet for firing from machine-gunners, which made it possible to shoot not by direct fire, over areas over long distances, almost all armies between the world wars were fond of this, for this purpose special thin-guiding mechanisms, automatic dispersion mechanisms were introduced on the machines

        As it turned out, not only ... I myself got confused already laughing sS were for snipers and for the Brandenburg regiment produced special sS cartridges (shells are painted green and a reduced charge of gunpowder) for firing with a silencer.
        The ss nahpatrone
        Für Sondereinheiten mit Schalldämpferwaffen,
        zB die Division Brandenburg, waren die
        Nahpatronen vorgesehen.
        Dabei handelt es sich um normale sS Patr
        onen die mit einer ve
        rringerten treibladung
        versehen waren um die Unterschallgeschwi
        ndigkeit des Geschosses zu erreichen.
        Geladen wurden 0,5g Platzp
        atronenpulver. Die geschwind
        igkeit des geschosses blieb
        damit unter der Schallgeschwindigkeit mit einer V0 von ca. 260m / s
  26. salavat
    salavat 23 March 2016 10: 45 New
    0
    I would buy a couple of mosquitoes, in the basement I would dig it, for a rainy day.