Military Review

Steel and tin

158
Continuation of the article "Veterans - relatives"


In Stahl und Blech

Article published in the Swiss Arms Magazine (Schweizer Waffen-Magazin) N 3-2009
Posted by: Laszlo Tolvaj


How similar are the 1933 TT pistols and the 1911 Colt, the Shpspina PPSh and Thompson M1A1 submachine guns of the same calibers differ. Conceptually soviet weapon almost all indicators exceeded "Tommy-gan."


In the background, the Thompson M1А1 caliber .45ACP with 30-charging magazine, in front of the PPSH-41 (caliber 7,62х25) with a drum magazine on the 71 cartridge and 35-charging sector magazine. Both samples are on combat platoon and safety


The first generation of submachine guns originated during the First World War. The goal was to create compact weapons for firing at short and medium distances in a positional war. The United States entered the war late and did not have their own software, and for similar purposes they used Winchester MXNXX Trench Gan pump-action rifles, which were almost as good as PP. Germany was the only country with a significant number of BG Bergmann / Schmeisser MP-1897 caliber 18 Pair. About 9 units entered the army, but the war soon ended. In the interwar period, the development of PP continued in many countries. In America, Auto Ordnance Corp. were manufactured by the design of John Thompson caliber .10000 ACP. The weapon had a semi-free shutter design of John Bliss. The shutter consists of two parts connected by an H-shaped connecting element. The movable drummer is located in the cylindrical extension of the locking part, on the opposite end of which there is a triangular “trigger”, which is actuated by the movable part of the bolt (which also has a reloading handle) at the moment when the cartridge completely enters the chamber. Subsequently, this complex structure gave way to a simple free gate with a fixed drummer, but more on that later.

The first batch of Colt 15000 Thompsons hit the market in 1921. Their characteristic feature is the front retention handle, which in the 1928 on the Thompsons ordered by the Navy was replaced with a conventional wooden forend.
With the beginning of the Second World War, the release of the M1928 model was increased, but they remained very expensive.

Cost reduction


The Thompsons, manufactured by Colt, can be called luxurious: they cost 229 dollars, which corresponded to about a monthly salary of a worker. Since the beginning of 2MB, through small changes, the cost has decreased to 209 dollars, by the time the United States entered the war - to 70 and, ultimately, to 45 dollars. A huge step forward, if we consider that almost all parts were made by fur. - processing. Further cost reduction was possible only by introducing a new design, which became the Grease Gun М3, consisting mainly of stamped parts, which the Americans undoubtedly spied from the Germans and the Russians.


In the background is the 1928А1 model with a compensator and a Luman sight, an 50-charging magazine and a barrel fin. At the front - a simplified version of the M1A1


But the Thompsons have undergone significant changes in order to reduce the cost. Using the models 1928А1 and М1А1 as an example, we will look at how this was achieved. Let's start with a flame arrester - on a cheaper model, it was completely abandoned. This made it possible not only to save a few centimeters of length and grams of weight, but also about a dozen working steps in the manufacture. At the same time, whether the tossing of weapons increased while shooting was another matter requiring special study.

Next - the trunk. He lost his cooling fins. The design of the receiver has also been changed - but this is more likely to reduce weight than production costs. "The course of radical weight loss" had to stand the sight - an adjustable rear sight, consisting of approximately 10-parts, gave way to a stamped piece of tin with a hole-diopter. To protect against damage dioptr protected massive cheeks.

And finally - the butt. On the M1А1 model, it became rigidly fixed to the receiver, while on 1928А1 the butt was removable with a push-button lock. On the change in the design of the shutter, we have already mentioned. In addition, the reloading handle moved from top to right (which apparently did not particularly affect either the mass or the price).

The 50-charging drum shop provided high firepower, but was so heavy, uncomfortable, expensive to manufacture, and difficult to recharge, that the military soon abandoned them. Instead, box shops with 20 and 30 cartridges with their chess arrangement were developed. If with the 1928А1 model both types of stores could still be used - the box-shaped ones were inserted from the bottom, and the drum was pushed in from the side, then on the M1-1 they refused recesses for the drums on the receiver.


The PPS drum shop has a smaller diameter, but its capacity on the 21 cartridge is larger


Steel and tin
On the left - a PPSH shutter with a reloading handle and a slide guard on it. On the right is the Thompson bolt from 3 details



Potential for economy: from above - monolithic shutter М1А1, from below - the initial version of three parts



Variants of the Thompson sights and detachable stock M1928А1


Shpagin - weapons for mass production



Soviet submachine guns have proven themselves on all continents and in all climatic conditions as an effective and reliable weapon. In the picture - PPSh with full ammunition


If Thomson symbolizes the “American dream” by its appearance, the PCA awakens the images of the Cold War. The “Soviets” managed long before the Americans to create mass weapons. And the point here is not even in the differences of the political system, but rather in the fact that the Russians at that time had a great combat experience. When the “councils” in the 30s developed the PP for the new cartridge 7,62х25, no one could yet know about the future World War II. Their first PP of the 1927 model of the year, designed by Tokarev, also used Nagan revolver cartridges, and this combination turned out to be, to put it mildly, not optimal.

In 1934, the PPN 1934 was adopted. Degtyarev design, which has already undergone some changes in 1938. After the Soviet-Finnish 1939-40 war, they were again refined and got drum shops on the 71 cartridge. With the beginning of 2MB, it became clear that PPDs are not suitable for mass production and PPSH-41 was adopted to replace them.

Its author was George S. Shpagin, for his services to the Fatherland, awarded three orders of Lenin. He managed to rationalize the already fairly simple construction of PPD-40. Shpagin made 95 parts from 87, for the manufacture of which only 7,3 machine hours were needed instead of 13,7. If we compare the salaries of the workers, the PCA was many times cheaper than Thompson.

In total, about 6 millions of PPShs were manufactured, which were also produced under license in “fraternal” countries and were widely used throughout the world until the 60s. The weapon, in fact, consists of a single stamped piece, about 50 long, see, which simultaneously serves as the cover of the receiver, the barrel cover and the muzzle compensator. Receiver, store neck and parts USM also manufactured by stamping. Only the barrel and bolt are machined.


Barrel casing is also a muzzle compensator


The drum shop, although smaller than Thompson’s, had the same drawbacks, so soldiers at the front preferred 35-sector charge stores. A powerful cartridge and a relatively light shutter mean a higher rate of fire - about 900 rounds per minute. Shooting single does not have high accuracy, as the shot occurs when the shutter is open. Therefore, marking the sight on 100 and 200 meters is unlikely to be realistic. And on the first models the gradation was right up to 500 meters!


Muzzle slices - from left to right: М1А1, ППШ with a casing - compensator, Thompson with a compensator



PCA before incomplete disassembly


Chuck concept


Characteristics of 7,62X25 and .45ACP cartridges (numbers through the slash - for PP and pistols)



In addition to manufacturing technology, it is the caliber that is the main difference between these systems. The Soviets abandoned the .45ACP due to its low penetration and preferred the 7,62x25 cartridge with its light, high-speed bullet with a gentle trajectory. With its smaller mass and volume, the soldier could carry more ammunition, and the stopping power did not play a big role then. If we consider the specific energy, the cartridge TT with its approx. 15 J / mm2 almost 4 times more powerful than .45 ACP. , and the muzzle energy is about 1,5 times higher. But with impulse (IPSC-factor) everything is quite the opposite. On the ballistic properties of ammunition and shooting from both samples we will discuss in the next article. (For some reason, there was no continuation - comment of the translator)



PS Translator's Note (Slug_BDMP)
Of the converted in semi-automatic PPSH shot once.
In general - impressive.
On the one hand, it is very heavy, especially with a drum shop, but on the other, it makes recoil almost imperceptible.
The attachment is comfortable.
Fuse - did not use, so I will not say anything.
The sight is very good - a clear contrast picture.
Descent - VERY tight, but it doesn’t interfere
But loading a drum is entertainment for masochists. In general, I wonder how the fighters did it in a combat situation, but with frozen fingers.
Insert the drum is also not very convenient. Best of all, it turned out, put the weapon on the table with the neck upwards, insert the drum and push the top with your fist. Store latch is also not very comfortable.
Shooting is nice. He shot at a standard pistol target, standing and from his knee. Shot a pack of cartridges - 50 pieces, mostly fast series - all the holes in the "black circle".
Author:
Originator:
Swiss Weapons Magazine (Schweizer Waffen-Magazin) N 3-2009
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  1. Great-grandfather of Zeus
    Great-grandfather of Zeus 24 February 2016 06: 35
    +5
    Not an expert, but I will say that any weapon has its own "clone" for a simple reason - often the course of design thought for solving a certain problem is very narrow and there are a minimum of solutions in this direction.
    1. Maksus
      Maksus 24 February 2016 10: 02
      +7
      PPSh is good of course. But the real pearl of war was PPS - a lekgy, compact, and much more convenient. And comparing Thompson and PPSh is not entirely correct - the first one was originally made under .45, only then 9mm versions appeared.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. db1967
        db1967 24 February 2016 14: 54
        +2
        PPP is also the most technologically advanced.
        And his Finnish clone under 9x19 IMHO and now would be nice.
        IMHO, it’s better than a variety of attempts to do something normal under a 9x18 PM cartridge.
        1. AK64
          AK64 24 February 2016 15: 50
          +1
          PPP is also the most technologically advanced.

          Nope: Wall or Amerovsky M3.
          Walls generally were made in garages. The hardest part is the spring

          And his Finnish clone under 9x19 IMHO and now would be nice.

          What is it? The only thing he was "good" was the price.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. _my opinion
          _my opinion 24 February 2016 15: 51
          0
          Quote: db1967
          PPP is also the most technologically advanced.
          .

          I agree - PPS was even simpler and cheaper to manufacture than PPSh, but a decision was made to concentrate on the production of PPSh ... they were afraid to reconfigure production.
          I will add that PPS-42 was developed (by the Soviet designer-gunsmith Aleksey Ivanovich Sudaev in 1942) and began to be produced in besieged Leningrad. In 1943 it was improved and became known as PPS-43. In total, about 5000000 PPP units of both modifications were produced.
          1. AK64
            AK64 24 February 2016 15: 57
            0
            In total, about 5000000 PPP units of both modifications were produced.


            PPP? What are you doing? Wiki writes - 2 million. But this is a fair exaggeration.
            I would say "over a million pieces" (but definitely less than two).
            PPSh - up to 6 million pieces
            1. Chtononibrator
              Chtononibrator 24 February 2016 22: 14
              0
              Quote: AK64
              I would say "over a million pieces

              Yes brost, the exact amount has long been known.
              1. AK64
                AK64 24 February 2016 22: 27
                0
                Yes brost, the exact amount has long been known.


                Well, if you were informed, then of course I pass. I'm silent ...
                / and spread his hands /
            2. sibiryouk
              sibiryouk 25 February 2016 11: 41
              +1
              Approximately 1.2 million total release, data from Fedoseyev.
          2. gross kaput
            gross kaput 25 February 2016 00: 01
            0
            Quote: _my opinion
            . A total of about 5000000 were issued.

            They only attributed the extra toe, 5 million is PPSh, and PPS is much less.
      3. carbine
        carbine 24 February 2016 17: 18
        -10 qualifying.
        Quote: Maksus
        But really the pearl of war was the faculty

        Yes? And what is its "pearl"?
        What about "good is never cheap" and "cheap pays twice"? Will the lives of yuser "pearl products" be counted and added or traditionally taken as zero?
        1. AK64
          AK64 24 February 2016 19: 09
          +2
          Yes? And what is its "pearl"?


          Its "pearl" was that in the first version, that of the 42nd year, there was only a tiny leather bumper under the shutter that was not metal. It could be produced even in besieged Leningrad (which they did).
          yes and for the rest differently better PPSh
          1. carbine
            carbine 24 February 2016 19: 22
            -10 qualifying.
            Quote: AK64
            It could be produced even in besieged Leningrad (which they did).

            And pitchforks and axes could even be made from improvised materials. Which of these? The best army weapons are forks and axes?
            1. AK64
              AK64 24 February 2016 19: 54
              +3
              You can hardly imagine what the Germans did in the 45th: the German version of the Wall is ... something.

              And what about Amer’s M3? Is it a model of army weapons or what? But the Americans are rich.
              And the evolution of British weapons in the war is also not in the direction of "as it were," but quite the opposite.

              About forks and axes: You, apparently, are not aware that Voroshilov almost gave the order to forge peaks.

              Pi-ki!

              So what is better, peaks or PCA?

              The choice is between what and what?

              It is clear that being rich and healthy is much better than being poor and sick. And it is absolutely amazing why so many people are sick for some reason. And the poor ...
              1. carbine
                carbine 24 February 2016 21: 26
                -10 qualifying.
                Quote: AK64
                And what about Amer’s M3? Is it a model of army weapons or what? But the Americans are rich.

                Oiler? Very beautiful and well-made weapons. Everything is simple, the barrel was shortened, n / s bullets were reduced. As a result, we got an RPVF of the order of 185 m (that is what a correctly made cartridge means), and the DEP fell sharply to 225 m. The result was a simple and cheap automatic carbine (machine gun carbine) with balanced TTX. With the whole, there was no longer any need to bother, but experienced soldiers had nothing to do with such weapons.
                I repeat, a very beautiful and competent work. Almost like a 19-K mod 1932. from the German BYTAST.
                Quote: AK64
                Voroshilov had almost given the order to forge peaks.

                And who was to blame for the lack of weapons? He and others held weapons closer to the border. To a little blood and on foreign territory.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 24 February 2016 21: 51
                  +3
                  Very beautiful and well-made weapons.


                  I'm not talking about "grammar", I'm talking about construction: a typical wartime ersatz. And by the way, getting out of it into something smaller than a large tank by 100 m is possible only by accident. (As well as from all PP)

                  But I understand that you somehow do not consider getting into it. The main thing is to kill.

                  And who was to blame for the lack of weapons? He and others held weapons closer to the border. To a little blood and on foreign territory.


                  Do you ever think about it? Or is it no matter what? Losses in killed and captured by the fall of 1941 amounted to about 3.6 million. Losses of the "missing", who were then found somewhere else 400 thousand. Guess where their rifles are. Plus, the soldiers, being surrounded and shooting cartridges, often lost their rifle. Or "lost" - why drag it, this weight, if there are no cartridges anyway?

                  After all, they lost not only rifles, but also almost all artillery, almost all tanks ... Also, you think, "in warehouses"?

                  Yes, and Churchill and other British, in your opinion, if you also get stupid idiot: he didn’t have any rifles or guns left in 1940 - he was ready to buy any old stuff from the Amers from the WWII.
                  Also, and "a little blood" was going?

                  Not everyone has an ocean
                  1. carbine
                    carbine 24 February 2016 22: 40
                    -4
                    Quote: AK64
                    typical wartime ersatz

                    Erzats ersatzu strife. But wartime weapons should still be different from peacetime weapons. in my opinion.
                    Quote: AK64
                    getting out of it into something smaller than a large tank by 100 meters is possible only by chance

                    The diopter sight was marked up to 100 yards (91 m). The problem was the location of the front sight and the length of the sighting line, and not the length of the barrel. The customer’s requirements were met this way, and the rest was sneezing, apparently.
                    Quote: AK64
                    But I understand that you somehow do not consider getting into it. The main thing is to kill.

                    Do not exaggerate. Why do I mention the DPRVF everywhere?
                    Quote: AK64
                    Also, you think, "in warehouses"?

                    There is such a thing, mob reserve and reserve for imagining. These weapons are in stock in peacetime. Including artillery and shooting.
                    Quote: AK64
                    in 1940 he had no rifles or guns at all

                    Maybe. But they could trample. The air battle of 1940. in the skies over Britain they won. And without air support in the canal, they had nothing to do. In addition, Germany was not at all preparing for war with Britain. And so in 1940. she had extremely few submarines.
                    Therefore, the problems with the rifle and guns for the British were not critical. And then they did a lot of things themselves, besides the Yankees helped.
                    Quote: AK64
                    Also, and "a little blood" was going?

                    He’s also going to. For this, Germany was set up by Poland. Only at first everything went wrong. But the British did a little blood and on foreign territory did.
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 24 February 2016 23: 01
                      -2
                      Erzats ersatzu strife. But wartime weapons should still be different from peacetime weapons.

                      Let's do it again, loudly and in chorus: a wartime ersatz.

                      But this is rich America! And not beggar quilted jackets (in which a quilted jacket instead of a bronzer.)


                      The diopter sight was marked up to 100 yards (91 m).


                      Who cares what it says on the sight? A small and light machine in which a heavy shutter runs: where do you get there?


                      There is such a thing, mob reserve and reserve for imagining. These weapons are in stock in peacetime. Including artillery and shooting.

                      So they took it out. Armed with something army picking autumn 1941? Just raked everything. The artillery of the tsar’s tsar was used up until the end of the 43rd, and even longer.

                      Just the loss of 6 million pieces of guns can not provide for planning inappropriately.
                      And if this could have been imagined, then all plans should be urgently reviewed.

                      Well, you don’t understand, I see
                      1. carbine
                        carbine 24 February 2016 23: 49
                        -3
                        Quote: AK64
                        But this is rich America! And not beggar quilted jackets (in which a quilted jacket instead of a bronzer.)

                        If you are about the M3, then I still consider it a good weapon. Yes, the customer apparently put forward understated requirements. Therefore, the line of sight was made short. But potentially the M3 was very good. I even think that the ideal one during the 2MB would not be Thompson, but a modified (not so much cheaper) model based on the M3.
                        Quote: AK64
                        A small and light machine in which a heavy shutter runs: where do you get there?

                        Nevertheless, at 100 yards he showed quite a decent accuracy. And then, a heavy shutter, this is not necessarily an imbalance. There could well have been balanced masses, yet a firm. You can probably see in YouTube whether the arrow is very sausage or not.
                        Quote: AK64
                        Well, you don’t understand, I see

                        I understand everything, but I will not present my opinion on this issue on this thread. The topic is different.
                      2. AK64
                        AK64 25 February 2016 07: 00
                        +1
                        If you are about the M3, then I still consider it a good weapon.

                        That is, you think his normal army weapons? So that's great.
                        It is not clear why the Americans themselves didn’t leave it in service after the war: inexpensive, and even just cheap, and everything, in your words, is just excellent.


                        Yes, the customer apparently put forward understated requirements. Therefore, the line of sight was made short.

                        Fingering started ...
                        "the customer is viable ...." Well, well.
                        So why did rich America release this miracle-judo at all?

                        Nevertheless, at 100 yards he showed quite a decent accuracy.

                        Yeah - if you clamp it in the machine


                        And then, a heavy shutter, this is not necessarily an imbalance. There could well have been balanced masses, yet a firm.

                        Yes, you look at the drawing: regular software. Ordinary. Unusual only super simplicity.

                        Arrow PPSh also did not "sausage", but only at 50m it scattered three meters. And MP38 / 40 is the same. And Stan. And even a much more modern Uzi.

                        But it’s not the Americans, then! And the Americans - they balanced. Sure sure.
                      3. karbine
                        karbine 25 February 2016 10: 30
                        0
                        Quote: AK64
                        It is not clear why the Americans themselves didn’t leave it in service after the war: inexpensive, and even just cheap, and everything, in your words, is just excellent.

                        Do not distort. Good for wartime.
                        Quote: AK64
                        So why did rich America release this miracle-judo at all?

                        And who knows? They had the whole gamut of weapons. Garand at 400m (without optics), Thompson at 300m (firing table with unloading space marked up to 500yards / 459 m), M1 / ​​M2 at 200m, Colt at 50m and now they made M3 at 100m. We see that it was. Although I wrote to you, if you make the sighting line a little longer, then the M3 could well replace the M1 / ​​M2.
                        Quote: AK64
                        Yeah - if you clamp it in the machine

                        Do not tell. Impulse of return of M3 5,01 kgm / s. This is a lot. But not so much. For example, the recoil momentum of M16A1 is 5,02 kgm / s, and M16A2 is 5,28 kgm / s.
                        In addition, do not forget about the automation, there is no gas outlet from the trunk, which means there is no noticeable impulse of spurious forces. Therefore, they could well balance the mechanism.
                        Quote: AK64
                        The arrow PPSh also did not "sausage", but only at 50m it scattered three meters

                        The PPSh firing table from NSD says something else.
                      4. AK64
                        AK64 25 February 2016 13: 10
                        0
                        Do not distort. Good for wartime.

                        That is, a military ersatz. Or is it "good"? Or is it an ersatz?

                        You generally figure it out - a good one, or a good ersatz, what kind of pluralism in a single brain, you know.

                        And who knows? They had the whole gamut of weapons. Garand at 400m (without optics), Thompson at 300m (firing table with unloading space marked up to 500yards / 459 m), M1 / ​​M2 at 200m, Colt at 50m and now they made M3 at 100m. We see that it was. Although I wrote to you, if you make the sighting line a little longer, then the M3 could well replace the M1 / ​​M2.

                        Cheered ...
                        No, well, with such outstanding numbers, I absolutely can’t understand why the Americans didn’t leave the M№ in service at least until Vietnam? After all, the numbers are oh-hoo!

                        Do not tell.

                        I will say and say it again: find the PP, any, and shoot. And THEN tell all these tales.

                        The PPSh firing table from NSD says something else.

                        You are an amazing person ... For some reason, I decided that you understand ...

                        No, well, it’s necessary: ​​I’m talking about dispersion, and he’s telling me about the curvature of the trajectory ... Full guard ...
                        \ and shook his head dejectedly \
                      5. karbine
                        karbine 25 February 2016 18: 34
                        0
                        Quote: AK64
                        You can figure it out - is it a good one, or a good ersatz,

                        But what, it has not been read?
                        Quote: karbine
                        Good for wartime.

                        Quote: AK64
                        No, well, with such outstanding numbers, I absolutely can’t understand why the Americans didn’t leave the M№ in service at least until Vietnam? After all, the numbers are oh-hoo!

                        Colt stayed.
                        Topic M1 / ​​M2 closed without heirs. In general, a weapon was very rare and exotic. Serially the same was released only by the Dominicans and after the war. It was completely unsuitable for the army. But it was ardently loved by all kinds of terrorists. In particular, there are lots of photos of Guevara with these weapons.
                        The Thompsons had a jamb from the RPVF. It was impossible to fix this on a cartridge with a classic bullet. And Thompson wartime also with DEP. There were no more. Therefore, Thompson wartime was replaced by the post-war (brought into the norm of the DEP), and Thompson (post-war) was then replaced by the M16 (without letters). In principle, this weapon is exactly the same, but the M16 has a normal RPVF.
                        Garand was replaced by M14. She is somehow not praised, but the Americans probably know better.
                        Quote: AK64
                        You are an amazing person ... For some reason, I decided that you understand ...
                        No, well, it’s necessary: ​​I’m talking about dispersion, and he’s telling me about the curvature of the trajectory ...

                        You can also attach the PPSH accuracy table. And you already make your own conclusions.
                      6. AK64
                        AK64 25 February 2016 19: 27
                        +1
                        But what, it has not been read?
                        Good for wartime.


                        That is, pluralism in a single brain
                        Well, here only eletropharesis will help

                        But actually everything is clear already:
                        1. Everything American is good without talking, this is an axiom.
                        2. Everything European --- actually, of course, bad, but at the same time much better than Soviet / Russian
                        3. All Soviet / Russian --- anathema! anathema! anathema! And even their regulator is bad.

                        Sense to speak?
                        That's right: there is no


                        And he will insist - and in the emergency I will send, where is the place for him
                      7. karbine
                        karbine 25 February 2016 19: 58
                        -4
                        Quote: AK64
                        1. Everything American is good without talking, this is an axiom.

                        and this also did not read? American, by the way.
                        Quote: karbine
                        Topic M1 / ​​M2 closed without heirs. In general, a weapon was very rare and exotic. Serially the same was released only by the Dominicans and after the war. It was completely unsuitable for the army.

                        Quote: AK64
                        Everything European is actually bad, of course, but at the same time much better than the Soviet / Russian

                        Those. for some reason about the infamous Hungarian PP Danuvia 43M in your brain for some reason didn’t delay? About the Italian weapon arr. 1938 About the British rifleman? Yes, a lot more.
                        And if the German rifleman in almost all was slop, then this is not my problem. All claims against the Wehrmacht.
                        Quote: AK64
                        3. All Soviet / Russian --- anathema! anathema! anathema! And even their regulator is bad.

                        What did you want from the "cooks" who ruled that state? Small arms are a very complex topic. Much more difficult than many. Therefore, "nuggets" have no place here.
                        In addition, I already wrote that starting from the 70s glimpses of consciousness began to be traced in the Soviet rifle design idea. Those. some kind of school began to appear. And before that, where did she come from?
                        Quote: AK64
                        And he will insist - and in the emergency I will send, where is the place for him

                        No problems. Bye.
                        PS. Learn the materiel. You and her are very bad. At the same time, you will not disguise this ignorance by incursions, it is too obvious.
              2. Kunar
                Kunar 16 March 2016 07: 55
                0
                And they called him the devourer of cartridges))) Although all the software sin))) Although, of course, WEAPONS OF VICTORY!
      4. Idiot
        Idiot 10 March 2016 20: 50
        0
        In 1940, in the case of the landing of the Germans on the island, British troops were advised to disable the enemy tanks by stuffing rails and logs between the rollers. And there was so much metal that they cut off all the fences in all the adjoining territories and in the squares. So ...
      5. Idiot
        Idiot 10 March 2016 20: 50
        -1
        In 1940, in the case of the landing of the Germans on the island, British troops were advised to disable the enemy tanks by stuffing rails and logs between the rollers. And there was so much metal that they cut off all the fences in all the adjoining territories and in the squares. So ...
    2. Chtononibrator
      Chtononibrator 24 February 2016 22: 11
      +1
      Quote: carbine
      well-made weapons

      Yeah, straight masterpiece. Even the reload handle could not be made normal, I had to change it on the next version.
  • AK64
    AK64 24 February 2016 19: 54
    0
    You can hardly imagine what the Germans did in the 45th: the German version of the Wall is ... something.

    And what about Amer’s M3? Is it a model of army weapons or what? But the Americans are rich.
    And the evolution of British weapons in the war is also not in the direction of "as it were," but quite the opposite.

    About forks and axes: You, apparently, are not aware that Voroshilov almost gave the order to forge peaks.

    Pi-ki!

    So what is better, peaks or PCA?

    The choice is between what and what?

    It is clear that being rich and healthy is much better than being poor and sick. And it is absolutely amazing why so many people are sick for some reason. And the poor ...
  • kugelblitz
    kugelblitz 24 February 2016 20: 01
    0
    Well, there were no opportunities for a mahogany fore-end and a lamb leather strap. wassat
  • Civil
    Civil 24 February 2016 18: 42
    +1
    Grandfather praised the faculty (the commander of the machine-gun platoon 112 of the Moscow-Prague cavalry division), but before that, the MP-40s were old in breakouts (then they had to be surrendered), the beast said the car.
    1. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 18: 51
      -13 qualifying.
      Quote: Civil
      but before that, MP-40s were old in the breakthroughs (then they had to be surrendered), the beast said the car.

      The beast machine was called the Thompson submachine gun. And the MP40 was so-so little animal. But in comparison with Soviet crafts, of course, a beast.
      1. gladcu2
        gladcu2 24 February 2016 20: 54
        +2
        Carbine

        Writing the army to Tommy Gun is a step of stupid leaders. Or a crime.

        This is a household gangster weapon. It was even affordable for units. Like a gangster weapon Tommy Gun is excellent.
        But as an army, it’s just useless.

        I heard a story. They say that Tommy Ghana who came on Lend-Lease with the Sherman, version 12 mm. Do not break 2 sweatshirts from 50 meters.

        I didn’t check, I don’t know.
        1. carbine
          carbine 24 February 2016 21: 05
          -6
          Quote: gladcu2
          Army Tommy Gun, this is the step of stupid leaders. Or a crime.

          Terrible crime, nightmarish stupid leaders. Only here stupid criminal weapons somehow stood in service right up to the 60s. And even after 1 MV it was modernized under a stronger cartridge.
          Quote: gladcu2
          This is a household gangster weapon. It was even affordable for units. Like a gangster weapon Tommy Gun is excellent.

          Do not confuse commercial weapons and army ones. Normally he stood, quite affordable for the American army.
          Quote: gladcu2
          But as an army, it’s just useless.

          Well yes. A quarter of a century of useless production for the army. But the AK with the same service life in the army is called "legendary" by some. Although the US has a choice of weapons, at least fill up. And in the USSR there was no alternative.
          Quote: gladcu2
          I heard a story. They say one hundred Tommy Ghana who came on Lend-Lease with the Sherman, version 12 mm. Do not break 2 sweatshirts from 50 meters.

          Yes, what sweatshirt? He didn’t even shoot at all. And if he shot, then back, in the arrow. But the legendary ....
          1. Chtononibrator
            Chtononibrator 24 February 2016 22: 27
            +1
            Quote: carbine
            stood in service right up to the 60s.

            What, right in Vietnam were the Thompsons in every department?
            Quote: carbine
            A quarter century of useless production for the army.

            What is a quarter century? Do you even know the years of Thompson production? This info is easy to find.
        2. AK64
          AK64 24 February 2016 21: 07
          +2
          Writing the army to Tommy Gun is a step of stupid leaders. Or a crime.

          Nevertheless, Churchill in the 40th was happy to get everything that was found.

          I heard a story. They say that Tommy Ghana who came on Lend-Lease with the Sherman, version 12 mm. Do not break 2 sweatshirts from 50 meters.

          This is no more than a bike.
          That is, of course, I understand that you are knitting a quilted jacket, which is a great armor, and that therefore, the Russians do not need armor - and there will be enough quilted jackets. But all the same, it would be necessary to know the measure in fantasies
        3. psiho117
          psiho117 24 February 2016 21: 35
          0
          Quote: gladcu2

          I heard a story. They say that Tommy Ghana who came on Lend-Lease with the Sherman did not break 2 sweatshirts from 50 meters.
          I didn’t check, I don’t know.

          Most likely this is really a bike - as are the stories about the non-penetration of helmets \ car doors. Still, this is not a cartridge from Nagan. But I suspect that their source nevertheless contained some facts - for example, they shot very frozen cartridges (Nagan had such stories, bullets in their fur coats were stuck), or the bullet hit the helmet and didn’t strike at the end. And there it started ... A soldier's telegraph - he is such a thing ...
  • Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 24 February 2016 06: 53
    +2
    Descent - VERY tight, but it doesn’t interfere

    I now think that a soft descent is good, but not when you often crawl or cross the forest. A fuse is good, but God saves a safe person.
    Sorry about the fuses did not say anything plainly.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 24 February 2016 09: 34
      +3
      Quote: ShadowCat
      Sorry about the fuses did not say anything plainly

      He held in his hands PPSh. Fuse = cross slider on shutter. My father said that he was not particularly reliable and gave an example when a fighter jumped from a cart, missed the machine gun and got a shot / to death /.
      1. Chukcha
        Chukcha 24 February 2016 14: 44
        0
        Similarly. My dad told me that there was the same case in their unit - a soldier, coming from duty, threw the machine gun on the table from his shoulder. As a result, a bullet to the side, also unfortunately to death.
        1. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok April 10 2016 14: 23
          0
          Quote: Chukcha
          Similarly. My dad told me that there was the same case in their unit - a soldier, coming from duty, threw the machine gun on the table from his shoulder. As a result, a bullet to the side, also unfortunately to death.

          what if you take an idiot ... when he does not follow the elementary rules for handling weapons. And the shot occurred precisely because the PPSh did not stand on the fuse.
          I speak not by hearsay, I had to shoot from the PPSh in the 80s and I can assure that he himself will not be removed from the fuse. There the design is very thought out.
          1. the fuse moves across the loading handle (located on it in a T-shaped groove) and in extreme positions has a fairly tight spring-loaded stopper.
          2. In the on position, the fuse enters the groove on the shutter cover and is pulled by a very tight mainspring.
          But I don’t know how a whisper behaves when falling, but theoretically it can with a strong blow and does not keep the shutter in the back position.
  • D-Master
    D-Master 24 February 2016 06: 59
    14
    Admiring the Kalashnikov diamond that created the legendary AK-47, which with upgrades will be the best until the advent of laser weapons or anything else, we forget about the pearl of the Soviet arms production machine PPSh. As the author of the article says: Its author was Georgy Semenovich Shpagin, for his services to the Fatherland, he was awarded three orders of Lenin. He managed to rationalize the already quite simple design of the PPD-40. Of the 95 parts, Shpagin made 87, for the manufacture of which only a 7,3 watch machine was required instead of 13,7 Due to its extreme simplicity and high reliability, the Soviet Army received weapons in the amount necessary for victory. A total of about 6 million PCA was manufactured.
    And it’s very nice to read translated articles by Western authors who really look at things and conduct a real analysis, without snobbery and Russophobic foam on the lips.
    1. goose
      goose 24 February 2016 16: 36
      +1
      And yet, the main thing in the fate of PPS and PPSh is a successful cartridge from TT. Good ballistics corrected some inclinations of simplified weapons. TT itself is an ideal scalpel. Still a store more modern ...
      1. AK64
        AK64 24 February 2016 16: 56
        -4
        And yet, the main thing in the fate of PPS and PPSh is a successful cartridge from TT.


        No! Just not that! Not again!
        \ And grabbed his head \

        Better go to the recent topic about TT and Colt and see what exactly is written about this particular cartridge. Well, so as not to be repeated.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. carbine
        carbine 24 February 2016 17: 30
        -6
        Quote: goose
        And yet, the main thing in the fate of PPS and PPSh is a successful cartridge from TT. Good ballistics corrected some inclinations of simplified weapons. TT itself is an ideal scalpel. Still a store more modern ...

        I read, and a mean male tear broke through me. I understood only one thing, around enemies. Well, after all, what masterpieces were adopted in the 30s. So what? Their enemies immediately after the Second World War were removed from production, and then also from weapons.
        Do not tell me why so? Why were they not exposed and punished? Maybe now it’s not too late to renew the production of those masterpieces and rearm the army on them?
        But seriously, do not write nonsense.
    2. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 17: 25
      -10 qualifying.
      Quote: D-Master
      Admiring the Kalashnikov diamond that created the legendary AK-47, which with upgrades will be the best until the advent of laser weapons

      I have a stink in my goiter. What can you argue with such users? Unless you ask, why are these "diamonds" so inexpensive relative to competitors?
      Quote: D-Master
      we forget about the pearl of the Soviet weapons production machine PPSh.

      No no. Thanks to such ascetics like you, people will never forget about this UG. Only he does not know that it was precisely the UG. You won’t tell him that. And forbid others to do this. All according to the training manual.
      1. Chtononibrator
        Chtononibrator 24 February 2016 22: 35
        +1
        Yah? Well, read on the site Memory of the People the docks of war veterans in 1945 about the rifleman, so to speak from the experience of the war. Cheto there is not about yr pps. Or do you need more trust sofa experts?
    3. aba
      aba 27 February 2016 03: 22
      0
      we forget about the pearl of the Soviet weapons production machine PPSh.

      Our Civil Defense teacher (he went through the entire war in the infantry) at the institute said: "PPSh is good in defense, pours like peas, but Schmeisser was more powerful."
      1. karbine
        karbine 27 February 2016 18: 42
        0
        Quote: aba
        "PPSh is good in defense, pours like peas, but Schmeisser was more powerful."

        1. Not more powerful, but more lethal. PPSh DE 690 J, MP40 580 J. But DEP at PPSh 35 m, at MP40 60 m.
        2. There was nothing good from the PPSh and in the defense. The defense battle begins with 400-450 m. DPSF at PPSh 260 m. About the ridiculous DEP I wrote above. A significant number of soldiers of the Red Army were armed with this useless Erasatz, instead of normal weapons. Hence the loss in many ways.
  • bionik
    bionik 24 February 2016 07: 06
    +3
    PP Thompson "Tommy-gun", better known as the weapon of American gangsters during the "Prohibition".
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 24 February 2016 11: 44
      +4
      Quote: bionik
      PP Thompson "Tommy-gun", better known as the weapon of American gangsters during the "Prohibition".

      Capitalism.
      Since the PP did not have time for the war and the army did not receive a mass order for the PP (a limited batch of "Tommy-Guns" was bought only by the ILC for its units in Latin America), then we will sell it to those who have money. It is necessary to recoup the development and production. smile
      By the way, in addition to illegal gangsters, "Tommy-gun" was also in service with legal gangsters. Pomnitz, the demonstration of workers at the Ford plant was shot by the armed PP Thompson private security company, which included parole members of the organized criminal group.
      1. Alex
        Alex 24 February 2016 18: 21
        +5
        At the words "PP Thompson" the first association is "There are only girls in jazz." There he could even be included in the list of actors.
  • Hubun
    Hubun 24 February 2016 07: 07
    +5
    PPSh is still a symbol of the Soviet soldier-liberator for me. Recently acquired a collection of himself, albeit castrated in pneumatic, but 43 years old, so there is military glory
    1. WUA 518
      WUA 518 24 February 2016 11: 18
      +2
      Quote: Hubun
      albeit castrated in air

      The 7,62 mm submachine gun of the 1941 model of the Shpagin system (PPSh) is a Soviet submachine gun developed in 1940 by designer G. S. Shpagin under the cartridge of 7,62 × 25 mm and adopted by the Red Army on December 21, 1940 . PPSh was the main submachine gun of the Soviet armed forces in World War II.

      Manufactured by PPSh CX - Molot Arms plant

      Certified in free circulation without licenses and permits.

      It shoots with blank cartridges 10x31 mm.
      1. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 24 February 2016 16: 15
        0
        Quote: Hubun
        albeit castrated in air, but 43 years old, then there is military glory

        Quote: WUA 518
        Manufactured by PPSh CX - Molot Arms plant
        Certified in free circulation without licenses and permits.
        It shoots with blank cartridges 10x31 mm.

        Those who do not like rubber women can buy an authentic PPSh (modification of the "Hammer") under the name VPO-135, chambered for the 7,62x25 cartridge. True, a license is already needed to purchase rifled weapons.
  • avva2012
    avva2012 24 February 2016 07: 07
    -5
    There is another minus in Thompson's high rate of fire. In combat conditions, unlike gangster showdowns, not very well. Designers understood this naturally. The Germans went farthest (slower). The MP-40, at least of all the really used samples in the war. I don’t know if there is a relationship, but the German has a small diameter gas pipe, so it just froze in frosts. Therefore, not in vain in all respects, PPSh was second only to Sudarev’s software. The rate of fire at that already: 700 alt / min.
    1. PKsh
      PKsh 24 February 2016 08: 03
      +9
      Interestingly, where is the mp-40 vent pipe?
      I do not think that the low rate of fire is good, with this type of weapon when the battle is fought on a "short" (IMHO).
      1. Fotoceva62
        Fotoceva62 24 February 2016 08: 53
        +1
        “... The base of the firing pin also served as an emphasis for the reciprocating spring, which was completely surrounded by a telescopic casing of steel tubes, forming together with them and the base of the firing pin a separate assembly unit that did not require disassembly for maintenance during normal operation of the weapon. Due to the compression of the air inside the system of tubes, they worked as a primitive moderator of the rate of fire, bringing it to an acceptable value for weapons of this class — about 600 rounds per minute, which made it possible to abandon the separate mode of firing with single shots in the USM, greatly simplifying its design. In addition, the reciprocating spring inside the tube system was reliably protected from dirt and mechanical damage ... "
        1. AK64
          AK64 24 February 2016 09: 20
          +4
          These are not "gas pipes", this is a "telescopic shutter" (from two tubes as a extendable antenna)

          Is that the difference, no?
      2. avva2012
        avva2012 24 February 2016 08: 53
        +1
        I agree, I wrote something lightly. PP itself was more prone to pollution, but certainly not for this reason. hi
      3. brn521
        brn521 24 February 2016 11: 51
        +2
        Quote: PKsh
        Interestingly, where is the mp-40 vent pipe?

        Apparently, the pneumatic damper of weapons of early releases was meant.
      4. carbine
        carbine 24 February 2016 17: 34
        -1
        Quote: PKsh
        I do not think that the low rate of fire is good, with this type of weapon when the battle is fought on a "short" (IMHO).

        Taki, good. Specially set.
        And the high rate of fire was good only for aviation and specialized anti-aircraft machine guns.
    2. AK64
      AK64 24 February 2016 09: 18
      +2
      I don’t know if there is a relationship, but the German has a small diameter gas pipe, so it just froze in frosts.

      What is the "gas outlet" of the MP ??? O_o

      In MP, to quench speed, a rather complex telescopic shutter
      1. Black Colonel
        Black Colonel 24 February 2016 10: 54
        +2
        In my humble opinion, to reduce the rate of fire, they increase the length of the shutter’s free play, which is observed in the MP-40.
        1. AK64
          AK64 24 February 2016 11: 09
          0
          see the "folding telescope" inside?
          Well, tell me - why is it there

          (answer: exactly what slows down the shutter)
    3. Black Colonel
      Black Colonel 24 February 2016 09: 45
      +2
      "... was second only to PP Sudarev"
      Actually, PP Sudaev
      1. avva2012
        avva2012 24 February 2016 13: 09
        +1
        That's, for sure, not my day, an extra "p" smile.
        But, nevertheless, PPS, in particular, went into production as a PP with a slower rate of fire than the PPSh? And, what is he the best software of the second world? In this, at least right?
        1. AK64
          AK64 25 February 2016 07: 11
          0
          In this, at least right?


          Wrong because the criteria for the "best" are not clear.
          PPP was not bad in terms of balance of symptoms.
          But PPSh was not bad in terms of balance of attributes (although of others).
          And Stan was not bad in terms of balance of attributes.
          And again, Tommy Gun was not at all bad, according to a number of signs (and by the way he had a rate of fire of 600-700 - like at the teaching staff)

          All PP is equal to junk. But in order to judge and argue which one is the best --- you must first submit the criteria. And remember that the criteria may be different for different countries.

          But about the PPSh / PPS: the cartridge they had was unimportant, and, as a result, the unimportant lethality. For the "trench broom" it still did not go far, but to equip them almost entirely with an army ...
          But this claim is no longer against Sudaev / Shpagin / Diagterev - what kind of cartridge they did to them. The very same PPs themselves could well work on both 9mm Steam and 9x25. (I won’t give a tooth, but I heard somewhere that the Germans reassigned something from the Soviet 9mm pair)
    4. Prapor-527
      Prapor-527 24 February 2016 17: 33
      0
      Quote: avva2012
      PPSh, second only to PP VesselsрEve.
      "Sir", the designer of the teaching staff was Alexei Ivanovich Sudaev. hi
  • Tjeck
    Tjeck 24 February 2016 07: 11
    -18 qualifying.
    Why compare PPSh with Thompson if PPSh has a specific ancestor? This is a Finnish submachine gun `` Suomi '', in fact, the PPSh is its simplified version designed for mass production. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomi_(%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B5%
    D1%82-%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BC%D1%91%D1%82)

    Moreover, Thompson as an army weapon proved extremely bad
    1. AK64
      AK64 24 February 2016 09: 24
      +3
      Why compare PPSh with Thompson if PPSh has a specific ancestor? This is a Finnish submachine gun `` Suomi '', in fact, the PPSh is a simplified version of it intended for mass production.


      Nope.

      On Suomi PPD hang, although it is no more than "similar".
      There is still a very big difference between PPA and PCA, this is not at all a "simplification", as written in this completely illiterate article.

      Well, if "at all": Both Suomi and PPD have a common ancestor, MP-18 Bergman. Hence the similarity.
      (Although the Lahti drum is certainly better than Bergmanosky - but this is a rationalization, not an invention.)
      1. Tjeck
        Tjeck 24 February 2016 10: 26
        -1
        Well, I would say that a little more than just similar .. But what can I say, a person who is not fond of weapons figs will distinguish Soma from PPSh from 10 meters.

        What exactly is stupid in that article? For me, an article as an article is no different from this one about Thompson and PPSh. Already just because stamped parts were used on the PPSh, it can be called simplified, there are pros and cons to this.

        Well, so you can come and for example call a cannon (unicorn) the progenitor of D-30, and in fact it is. But in this case they made decisions from a specific sample.
        1. AK64
          AK64 24 February 2016 10: 48
          +3
          Well, I would say that a little more than just similar .. But what can I say, a person who is not fond of weapons figs will distinguish Soma from PPSh from 10 meters.

          Oh, well, "will not distinguish"! If you wrote "it will not distinguish from the PPD", then I would still agree. And so there are many differences, even from the PPD, and the first is the disproportionately long barrel of the Suomi. (There is a Swedish license, so on the contrary, it has a disproportionately short barrel.)

          But take Bergman, MP-18 or MP-28, and take away the store from all the software: will it distinguish or not?

          What exactly is stupid in that article? For me, an article as an article is no different from this one about Thompson and PPSh. Already just because stamped parts were used on the PPSh, it can be called simplified, there are pros and cons to this.

          Yes article ... frankly nonsense ... A bunch of nonsense is written.
          (I know, I know - now they will say “write it yourself!” To which I will answer: a WHAT FOR should I write if there are tons of literature on the issue?)

          Well, so you can come and for example call a cannon (unicorn) the progenitor of D-30, and in fact it is. But in this case they made decisions from a specific sample.


          NO! Well, what evidence do you have that "took from the sample"? Yes, you look at the early versions of Suomi - there is generally ... a guard. Diagterev made a viable automatic machine as if not earlier than Lahti. (again, look at early versions of the Lahti machine gun.)
          Daghterev took the disc more or less accurately from Lahti: there was no such disc before Lakhtit.
          Once again: pay attention to the long trunk of Suomi - it is longer than all the others. And the rest are comparable: MP-18/28, PPSh, PPD, PPS - the length of the barrel by eye is approximately the same.
          So even by the length of the trunk, not Suomi in the parents of the PPD.
          MP-18 is their (and Thompson's) common ancestor.

          And Thompson has to be blunt about the unfortunate child, mainly because of the price. (At the time, Ford cost $ 499, which is a "miracle" 249! Only gangsters could afford that.)
          1. AK64
            AK64 24 February 2016 11: 01
            0
            And by the way, the PPD was originally with a small horn (for 20 rounds, or something; too lazy to check). But it was the same PPD. Well, as a result, the Finnish Stalin said "and they have more than ours!" - well, they attached this stupid disk
    2. Forest
      Forest 24 February 2016 09: 55
      +3
      We got to know Suomi late enough to copy. And so, if you find fault, then almost all the weapons are clones, so the gas outlet, there due to the shutter.
    3. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 17: 42
      -8
      Quote: Tjeck
      Moreover, Thompson as an army weapon proved extremely bad

      And PPSh, what, okay? It is only on various forums that he is praised. But actually there’s nothing at all. Although, if you compare it with a slingshot, then immediately there is something.
      1. Tjeck
        Tjeck 24 February 2016 20: 27
        +1
        Yes, PPSh is primitive - essentially a barrel + stick .. But Thomson is hardly even an army weapon.
        1. carbine
          carbine 24 February 2016 20: 56
          -3
          Quote: Tjeck
          But Thomson is hardly even an army weapon.

          Well, why? Faithfully (in army versions) served in the armies of different countries (in two main versions, military and post-war time) until the 60s, until they were replaced by M16 (without letters) on the cartridge M193.
          In fact, the post-war Thompson had one serious jamb, there was a short range direct shot. This jamb was eliminated by radically changing the cartridge.
          It should be understood that the Thompsons were quite an "adult" weapon. Yes, wartime Thompson had some insufficient power and therefore pulled only on the assault (i.e. weakened) author. rifle (in modern terminology). But the post-war Thompson on the .45 ACP + P cartridge was devoid of this drawback and was quite a full-fledged army author. rifle.
          And weapons like the "European submachine gun" were not made in the United States. Even the M1 Carbine was a semi-automatic carbine, i.e. weapons a step higher than submachine guns.
          1. Forest
            Forest 25 February 2016 09: 25
            0
            In addition to Thompson, the Americans practically did not have adequate automatic weapons, and therefore used what they had. Even with a reinforced cartridge, it was inferior in range and accuracy to almost any PP on a European theater.
            1. karbine
              karbine 25 February 2016 11: 24
              +1
              Quote: Forest
              In addition to Thompson, the Americans practically did not have adequate automatic weapons

              How was it not? There were, but there were no submachine guns. But they (and not only them) did not need them, tk. there were the Thompsons. Submachine guns are not weapons at all. For some reason, the PPSh is considered a “cool machine” in the USSR. Actually, it sucks for the army. It can also be somewhere in urban battles, in forests it can be used. But for a conventional war, these are not weapons.
              Quote: Forest
              Even with a reinforced cartridge, it was inferior in range and accuracy to almost any PP on a European theater.

              Nonsense. The firing table in the NSD is marked at 500yards / 459m. No more for army weapons.
              But Thompson "fell" at a distance of 280 m. A PPSh at 35 m. A MP40 at 60m. Did you notice the difference?
              1. Forest
                Forest 25 February 2016 21: 01
                0
                I have an 410 m sight on Saig 1500, but shooting at such a distance is like a finger into the sky. PPSh hit targets up to 200 m, MP-40 slightly smaller. But Thompson just had the smallest range of normal combat among all the PP.
                1. karbine
                  karbine 25 February 2016 21: 17
                  0
                  Quote: Forest
                  PPSh hit targets up to 200 m, MP-40 a little smaller. But Thompson just had the smallest range of normal combat among all the PP.

                  And can you even prove it with something?
                  1. Forest
                    Forest 26 February 2016 09: 55
                    0
                    This is everywhere, you just need to look at the data of the cartridge and weapons.
                    1. karbine
                      karbine 26 February 2016 19: 34
                      +1
                      Quote: Forest
                      This is everywhere, you just need to look at the data of the cartridge and weapons.

                      Looked. I didn’t notice anything bad. Good weapons on a good cartridge.
            2. AK64
              AK64 25 February 2016 13: 20
              0
              In addition to Thompson, the Americans practically did not have adequate automatic weapons, and therefore used what they had. Even with a reinforced cartridge, it was inferior in range and accuracy to almost any PP on a European theater.


              - Yielded to what?
              - Don't you hear? Lost in the theater!


              Well, if in the theater, then it’s clear ...
              Just tell us what exactly was Thompson inferior to? AND?

              Well, about "there were no weapons", too, of course, delivered ...
              Well, really, well, where did Amers get weapons? They handed out all the weapons under Lend-Lease, huh ...

              In general, well enough already to feed on fairy tales? Or not enough?
              1. Forest
                Forest 25 February 2016 21: 13
                0
                The most important thing is in the firing range and ballistics, the penetration of a bullet was worse, which in a city or forest can be critical. Mass surpassed all analogues. In addition to Thompson, there were M50, accurate, but complex and unreliable, M3, with a low rate of fire and even worse ballistics than Thompson. Or did they already have M14 in service?
                1. karbine
                  karbine 25 February 2016 21: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: Forest
                  bullet penetration was worse

                  So what? were everyone hiding behind the rails?
                  Quote: Forest
                  In addition to Thompson, there were M50, accurate, but complex and unreliable, M3, with a low rate of fire and even worse ballistics than Thompson. Or did they already have the M14 in service?

                  But what about the M1? And Springfield with Anfield?
                  1. Forest
                    Forest 26 February 2016 10: 15
                    0
                    Door, board, sheet of metal, slate - during the battle in the city there is a lot of garbage that can delay the bullet. Garand self-loading, Springfield generally store.
                    1. karbine
                      karbine 26 February 2016 10: 40
                      0
                      Quote: Forest
                      Door, board, sheet of metal, slate - during the battle in the city there is a lot of garbage that can delay the bullet.

                      You confuse the war with WHO. War is a little different. There are few sheets of metal and slate in the field.
                      Quote: Forest
                      Garand self-loading, Springfield generally store.

                      Did you mean only automatic weapons? But why would they need something different with Thompson? You understand, comparing PPSh and MP40 with Thomson, you are comparing completely different weapons. It’s even wrong to compare the butterdish with European PP.
                      Those. this is how to compare Garand and M1 Carbine. What's better? Of course, Garand.
                      1. Forest
                        Forest 26 February 2016 17: 06
                        0
                        Fights in Europe were often built in cities, fortunately the population density was high, in the USSR there were many villages, there are a lot of thin boards there.
                        Initially, he wrote that Thompson held out in the troops for a long time because of the impossibility of replacing him with another automatic weapon.
                      2. karbine
                        karbine 26 February 2016 19: 31
                        +1
                        Quote: Forest
                        Fights in Europe were often built in cities, fortunately the population density is high

                        Well, let's still arm the army with special weapons for each specific area.
                        Quote: Forest
                        Initially, he wrote that Thompson held out in the troops for a long time because of the impossibility of replacing him with another automatic weapon.

                        Why change it? It was impossible to fit it on a classic cartridge. Therefore, it was replaced when they came up with a new cartridge. Everything is simple and logical.
                      3. Forest
                        Forest 26 February 2016 19: 52
                        0
                        Well, if almost all fights take place at short distances, in cities, villages, industrial districts - then it makes no sense to invent something else. When using another pistol cartridge, Thompson's characteristics can be circumvented. What really set him apart in comparison with European PPs is the amazing quality.
                      4. karbine
                        karbine 26 February 2016 22: 07
                        0
                        Quote: Forest
                        When using another pistol cartridge, Thompson's characteristics can be circumvented.

                        You know, I'm pretty good at ballistics. Therefore, I ask you not to compare Thompson with European submachine guns. This is not a submachine gun, this is an SMG. Those. "junior machine gun". Translated into Russian, approximately automatic. Only this machine gun with performance characteristics from a weakened (assault) rifle (wartime Thompson), to a machine gun with performance characteristics of an army rifle (post-war Thompson). And nothing to do with European PPs.
                        Therefore, a classmate of Thompson's wartime is the AK-74. And Thompson's classmate after the war is M16A1. At the same time, the M16A1 is not a classmate of the AK-74.
                        Of course, both the AK-74 and M16A1 are noticeably better than their ancient Thompson classmates. But how old are they?
                        And comparing Thomson with European PPs is like comparing a corn machine with a Tu-154. Type also flies. And with the help of another cartridge TTX Thompson could only worsen. He had the optimal cartridge, until a new type of cartridge (small) was invented. That is why he stood up to the "small" in service.
                      5. Forest
                        Forest 26 February 2016 22: 33
                        0
                        In the West, in general, PP is called SMG. And the .45 cartridge with good stopping power but poor range and quick loss of energy in flight doesn’t compare with modern intermediate small things. So then MP-40, and PPSh, and Sten occupied the niches of modern assault rifles or assault rifles / carbines according to the western designation.
                      6. carbine
                        carbine 26 February 2016 22: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Forest
                        In the West, in general, PP is called SMG.

                        In the West, PP is called machine pistol.
                        SMG (as well as AW, LMG, SFW, GPMG, etc.) is an indicator of the rate of fire of a weapon. Earlier in the USA, only Thompson's SMG possessed an SMG rate of fire (80-100 rounds per minute). Because of the cartridge that was also used in the Colt-Browning pistol, this weapon in tyrnets is erroneously called PP. In fact, this is far from the case.
                        In Europe, only PP had SMG rates up to the 60-70s. But at the same time, SMG and PP are not the same thing.
                        Quote: Forest
                        And the .45 cartridge with good stopping power but poor range and fast loss of energy in flight doesn’t compare with modern intermediate small things.

                        Actually, "little things", it's just a different technological level. But the weapons are of the same class. See above for what corresponds to what. At the same time, Thomson, with a known hemorrhoid, was quite allowed to fight for 500 yards (459 m). At least the range table in the NSD is marked like this.
                        Quote: Forest
                        So the MP-40, PPSh, and Sten occupied the niches of modern assault rifles or assault rifles / carbines according to the western designation.

                        No. MP40 and Sten, these are typical PP. Those. weapons for combat at 100 m. In addition, the PP are fig because of the fig cartridge.
                        PPSh, this is not an army weapon, but rather a hunting one (if you remove some options). And army weapons, as you know, are a special case of hunting weapons. Under the "game" of a certain size. In principle, it was possible to use it for the army, but it is not very desirable. Because of the extremely fig bullet.
                        It is clear that there was no other. But to give out a thing that is unsuitable for the army as something particularly outstanding is generally too much.
                      7. Forest
                        Forest 27 February 2016 13: 00
                        0
                        This is not a western designation, but German. I don’t know how to fight with anyone at all from a distance with a cartridge, which by 100 m loses a huge amount of energy. I don’t know, maybe you met .45, which is not affected by air, but even 7,62х39 and 5,56х45 on 500 m lose a significant part of their energy. But the PPSh cartridge up to 200 m carries enough energy to kill a person, breaking through winter clothes. I don’t know where you found information about the incredible power of .45 and such a high range of Thompson’s battle. The effective combat range for .45 is 80-100 m. 7.62x25 to 200 m due to a much better initial speed and lower flight losses. Yes, the stop action of 7,62x25 is almost 4 times less than .45, but this is not the main thing for a bullet.
                      8. karbine
                        karbine 27 February 2016 18: 30
                        0
                        Quote: Forest
                        but even 7,62x39 and 5,56x45 per 500 meters lose a significant part of their energy.

                        At 500 meters without optics no one is fighting. Self-loading army weapons on an open sight are used at 400 m, automatic (not Soviet, but real automatic rifle or full-automatic rifle) at 400-450 m.
                        Quote: Forest
                        But the PPSh cartridge up to 200 m carries enough energy to kill a person, breaking through winter clothes.

                        You are my dear. No energy in itself kills anyone. And even electric. She will only kill if you put your fingers in the socket. So it is with bullets. If the right bullet has enough energy, it will kill. And the wrong will kill. Only here the energy of the right and wrong bullets will need different. Wrong much more. Therefore, a bullet, with a lot of energy, it will be much easier to pass through. Simply put, a PPSh bullet is guaranteed to kill the enemy at a distance of 35 meters. And then, how lucky. And no clothes here will save, these are Internet bikes.
                        Quote: Forest
                        I don’t know where you found information about the incredible .45 power and such a high range of Thompson’s battle.

                        The Thompson bullet has no "incredible power". But this "fool" has a diameter of 103,5 square meters. mm. And the TT bullet has a diameter of 48,4 square meters. mm. Feel the difference. To achieve the same "lethality", the PCA bullet requires more than 2 times more energy than the Thompson bullet. In this case, the likelihood of a "draft" (ie, marriage) for a PPSh bullet with such an energy will be much greater than that of a Thompson bullet.
                        Quote: Forest
                        The effective combat range for .45 is 80-100 m. 7.62x25 up to 200 m due to a much better initial speed and less loss in flight.

                        "Destructive range" .45 wartime 280 m, PPSh bullets 35 m, muzzle velocity, this information is nothing. The initial energy of the bullet matters. Wartime Thompson has 466 J, PPSh 690 J. And then pure physics and external ballitics begin. Ballistic coefficient Thomson's bullets 0,195 (manufacturer's data), while PPSh has about 0,135, i.e. much worse. At a distance of 200 m, the residual energy on the target for Thompson is 166 J, for PPSh 241 J. And then see above the cross-sectional area of ​​the bullets.
                        Quote: Forest
                        Yes, the stopping effect of 7,62x25 is almost 4 times less than .45, but this is not the main thing for a bullet.

                        This is the main thing for army and hunting weapons in general, in principle. And absolutely unnecessary for sports and civilian weapons. In not so "affectionate" times, as now, the stopping effect of a weapon was more precisely called a lethal effect. But then the generals somehow softened, and began to discuss the stopping effect of weapons. Well, like, they're not killers.
                      9. Forest
                        Forest 27 February 2016 20: 03
                        0
                        I don’t know where you read about the slaughter distance for 7,62x25 in 35 m, but the slaughter range of the bullet, EMNIP, is about half a kilometer, and not at all on the 35 m. First, you yourself wrote that on the 200 m the bullet .45 slides where to. stronger than that of 7,62x25, while .45 has muzzle energy in the 600 region, while 690 J of the TT cartridge is only for post-war bullets. A stopping action is the ability to stun an adversary, for example, a shotgun will not break through a heavy bulletproof vest, but may give a temporary shock to an adversary, while an assault rifle will break through an armor and the enemy will die. But the stopping action is that 5,56, that 5,45 is much smaller than 7,62x25. The rubber bullet of an injury generally has a stopping effect tremendous, but this does not make the injury more dangerous than an automatic machine. I don’t know where you read about 35 and the slaughter distance 7,62x25 and 280 for .45, but this is not only not found anywhere, but it also contradicts the laws of physics.
                      10. karbine
                        karbine 28 February 2016 18: 28
                        0
                        Quote: Forest
                        I don’t know where you read about the slaughter distance for 7,62x25 in 35 m

                        At a distance of 35m, a PPSh bullet, if it hits well (not tangentially, not right through), will kill the enemy with a probability of ~ 100%. Further this distance, options are possible. High-quality weapons are not made based on "options". The standard "lethal range" distance for PP is about 100-110m.
                        Quote: Forest
                        First of all, you yourself wrote that a .200 bullet rolls much stronger at 45 m

                        I did not write anything about "rolling". I don't understand the meaning of this term.
                        Quote: Forest
                        Stopping action is the ability to stun an adversary

                        A stopping effect is the ability to overcome the threshold of pain shock. Which entails lethal consequences. And stun, it's stun.
                        Quote: Forest
                        But the stopping effect is 5,56, which 5,45 is much less than 7,62x25.

                        Actually noticeably more. The bullets are different, their wound ballistics are completely different.
                        Quote: Forest
                        I don’t know where you read about the 35 m slaughter distance of 7,62x25 and 280 for .45, but this is not only not found anywhere, it also contradicts the laws of physics.

                        Not located and not located. Learn wound ballistics. I recommend starting with the basics, with the formulas of Josseran and Hatcher. They are simpler. Then it will be possible to move on to those that are more complicated.
                      11. The comment was deleted.
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  • Siberia 9444
    Siberia 9444 24 February 2016 08: 41
    +1
    The Nazis also realized that the PCA is more reliable. And that passed PPS Thomson smokes on the sidelines. He held the PPSh heavy with a tambourine of more than 5 kg but on the other hand he would smash the enemy’s head to smithereens.
    1. aiw
      aiw 24 February 2016 09: 28
      -3
      Well, in WW2, the American marines on the islands of Quiet Oken did not make easy walks, we just know too little about it.
      1. AK64
        AK64 24 February 2016 09: 32
        +2
        Well, in WW2, the American marines on the islands of Quiet Oken did not make easy walks, we just know too little about it.


        Yes, but they made the M4 (not Tommy-gun). Or, more often, self-loading.

        There is too much milled in Thompson, it’s a guard from the point of view of the technologist.
        1. gladcu2
          gladcu2 24 February 2016 21: 07
          0
          AK 64

          It makes sense to distinguish between Army Thompson and Gangster Tommy Gan. There are already significant differences associated with the adaptation of weapons to army use.
    2. otto meer
      otto meer 24 February 2016 12: 51
      0
      Quote: Siberia 9444
      The Nazis also realized that the PCA is more reliable. And that passed PPS Thomson smokes on the sidelines. He held the PPSh heavy with a tambourine of more than 5 kg but on the other hand he would smash the enemy’s head to smithereens.
      They didn’t understand anything, they just had very little of their own, and the need will compel.
    3. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 17: 51
      +1
      Quote: Siberia 9444
      The Nazis also realized that the PCA is more reliable.

      Onеnli-ponеwhether. And they’ve got a lot of thingsеwhether. That's what fell into their hands, thenеwhether. Thompson is there at the end, they tooеyou.
      7.62 mm Selbstladegewehr 257 (r) Former russian AVS-36
      7.62 mm Selbstladegewehr 258 (r) Former russian SVT-38
      7.62 mm Selbstladegewehr 259 (r) Former russian SVT-40
      7.62 mm Selbstladegewehr 251 (a) Former American Rifle, caliber. 30, M1 (Garand)
      7.62 mm Selbstladegewehr 310 (f) Former french Fusil Mitrailleur RSC Mle 1918
      7.62 mm Selbstladekarabiner 455 (a) Former American Carbine, Caliber. 30, M1
      G-221/223 (Jugoslavians) War reparations after WWI
      G-299 or 98 (Polish) idem
      Gewehr 24 (Czech) build under license
      Gew 29/40 (Austrian)
      Gew 262 (Belgian)
      Gew 289 (Polish)
      Gew 290/298 (Jugoslavian) build under license
      Gewehr 98/40 (original 8 mm Huzagol 35M from Hungary)
      Gewehr 33/40 (manufactured in CZ Brno or Waffenfabrik Brno)
      Gewehr 98 (Austrian Repetier Gewehr 1895 in 8 mm)
      Gewehr 306 (Greek, Italian or jugoslavian G-9
      Gewehr 294 (ex G-98 recalibrated by the jugoslavians to 7.9)
      Gewehr 33 (Musketon vz 16/33 the standard Czech Army carbine)
      Gewehr 209 (Italian Fucille modelo 38 in 6.5 mm)
      Gewehr 210 (Italian Fucille modelo 41 in 6.5 mm)
      Gewehr 211 (Dutch Geweer M95 Manlicher in 6.5 mm)
      Gewehr 214 (Italian Fucille modelo 91 in 6.5 mm)
      Gewehr 215 (Greek mannlicher-Schonauer Model 03/14 in 6.5 mm)
      Gewehr 231 (Italian Fucille modelo 38 in 7.35 mm)
      Gewehr 241 (French model 07-15 M34 in 7.5 mm)
      Gewehr 242 (French MAS-36 in 7.5 mm)
      Gewehr 249 (American Springfield M 03 in 7.62)
      Gewehr 252 (Russian Mosin M-91 in 7.62 and Jugoslavian Puska M91R)
      Gewehr 254 (Russian Mosin M-91/30 in 7.62)
      Gewehr 256 (Russian Mosin M-91/30 in 7.62 with 3.5 telescope)
      Gewehr 261 (Belgian Fusil 1889 Mauser in 7.65 mm)
      Gewehr 263 (Belgian Fusil 36 Mauser in 7.65 mm)
      Gewehr 281 (British Rifle N? 1 Mk III in 7.7 mm)
      Gewehr 301 (French model 1886 transforme 1893 in 8 mm)
      Gewehr 302 (French model 1907 transforme 1915 in 8 mm)
      Gewehr 303 (French model 1886 racroche 1935 in 8 mm)
      Gewehr 304 (French model 1916 in 8 mm)
      Gewehr 305 (French model 1907 dit colonial in 8 mm)
      Gewehr 307 (Jugoslavian Puska 8 mm M93)
      Gewehr 311 (Danish Gevaer m / 89-10 in 8 mm)
      1. carbine
        carbine 24 February 2016 17: 51
        0
        Karabiner 408 (Italian Moschetto modello 38 in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 409 (Italian Moschetto modello 91 for cavalry in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 410 (Italian Moschetto m 91 for technical troops in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 411 (Dutch Karabijn aantal 1 in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 412 (Dutch Karabijn aantal 1 OM en NM in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 413 (Dutch Karabijn aantal 3 OM en NM in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 414 (Dutch Karabijn aantal 4 OM en NM in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 411 (n) (Norwegian Kavalerikarabin m / 1894 in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 412 (n) (Norwegian Kavalerikarabin m / 1895 in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 413 (n) (Norwegian Ingenieorkarabin m / 1904 in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 414 (n) (Norwegian Artillerikarabin m / 1907 in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 415 (Norwegian Karabin m / 1912 in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 416 (Italian moschetto modello 91/24 in 6.5 mm)
        Karabiner 430 (Italian moschetto modello 38 in 7.35 mm)
        Karabiner 451 (Belgian Carabine 1889 in 7.65 mm)
        Karabiner 453 (Belgian Carabine 1916 in 7.65 mm)
        Karabiner 454 (Russian Karabin obr 1938 g in 7.62 mm)
        Karabiner 457 (Russian Karabin obr 1944 g in 7.62 mm)
        Karabiner 494 (Greek S-95)
        Karabiner 497 (Polish Karabinek 91/98/25 in 7.92 mm [ex Mosin])
        Karabiner 505 (Italian or jugoslavian S-95)
        Karabiner 506/1 (Danish Fodfolkskarabin m / 89-24 in 8 mm)
        Karabiner 506/2 (Danish Artilleriekarabin m / 89-24 in 8 mm)
        Karabiner 506/3 (Danish Ingeniorkarabin m / 89-24 in 8 mm)
        Karabiner 506/1 (Danish Rytterkarabin m / 89-24 in 8 mm)
        Karabiner 551 (French model 1890 in 8 mm)
        Karabiner 552 (French model 1892 in 8 mm)
        Karabiner 553 (French model 1916 in 8 mm)
        Stutzen 95 (Austrian Repetier-Stutzen-Gewehr m-1895 in 8 mm)
        MP.704 (f) (ex-Frence PM Vollmar Erma)
        MP.715 (r) (PPD 34/38)
        MP.716 (r) (PPD 40)
        MP.717 (r) (PPSh 41)
        MP.719 (r) Captured Russian PPs-43
        MP.722 (f) Captured French Mas-38
        MP. 738 (i) Beretta model 38/42
        MP. 739 (i) (Beretta Mo. 938)
        MP. 740 (b) (ex-Belgian Mi.Schmeisser-Bayard Mle. 34)
        MP. 741 (d) (The license built Bergman made in Denmark)
        MP.746 (d) (Madsen M-42)
        MP.749 (e) Captured British Sten Mk II
        MP.751 (e) Captured British Sten Mk II with silencer
        MP. 760 (e) / (j) / (a) / (r) Captured Thompson M-28 from British, US, Yugoslavian or Soviet)
        MP.761 (f) Captured Thompson M-1921 purchased by France in 1939
  • Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 24 February 2016 08: 48
    +2
    Thompson of the American army was not much needed, they mass produced an excellent self-loading rifle M1. For guards, military police, special services, of course, he was useful.
    1. Fox
      Fox 24 February 2016 09: 34
      +2
      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      excellent self-loading rifle M1

      here, read at your leisure, about the "legendary" ...
      http://maxpark.com/community/404/content/1752148
    2. atos_kin
      atos_kin 24 February 2016 11: 11
      +2
      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      For security guards, military police, special services

      And for dill. Award, probably for intimacy with Svidomo so that their glasses are compressed.
    3. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 17: 54
      0
      Quote: Cap.Morgan
      Thompson of the American army was not much needed, they mass produced an excellent self-loading rifle M1

      In fact, so-so. In addition, he and Thompson are not competitors.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  • rustyle_nvrsk
    rustyle_nvrsk 24 February 2016 09: 04
    +4
    The Americans had the more appropriate weapon for the war - David Williams self-loading carbine for 15-30 rounds of 7,62 caliber. We had a cool SVT rifle, but only parts with an idea of ​​technical culture were armed with it.
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 24 February 2016 12: 59
      +2
      It was a great rifle. I read the memoirs of the German lieutenant about the landing near Feodosia, when the German PTB was covered with heavy gunfire.
      Nemchura considered that the company was opposing them - there were 10 sailors with SVT, which did not prevent the German gunners from getting around the sailors and capturing :( - what can I say, the Germans tactical training was better. The lieutenant kept silent about the losses ...
      1. carbine
        carbine 24 February 2016 18: 05
        -3
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        It was a great rifle. I read the memoirs of the German lieutenant about the landing near Feodosia, when the German PTB was covered with heavy gunfire.

        Fear has big eyes.
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        Nemchura considered that the company was opposing them - there were 10 sailors with SVT,

        Oh well. 10 sailors with SVT, that's about 20 sailors with the so-called. mosink. Not even a platoon. Where does the "flurry of fire" come from?
      2. gladcu2
        gladcu2 24 February 2016 21: 55
        0
        Dimer

        Your truth. The Germans strictly followed the training of soldiers. Tactics were on top.
    2. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 18: 01
      -1
      Quote: rustyle_nvrsk
      We had a cool SVT rifle, but only parts with an idea of ​​technical culture were armed with it.

      Do you think people who have spent 4 years have such an idea? I think yes. Why then was it removed from production immediately after the war? Okay, with a creak for a second, supposethat in 1941. all were hand-crafted idiots, as they write on "patriotic forums", praising SVT. But in 1945. what problems with users could be? And still, the release was stopped.
      1. AK64
        AK64 24 February 2016 19: 18
        +1
        And still, the release was stopped.


        Stopped to replace with what? AND! SCS + AK, that's what ... laughing

        Well?

        That is, IMHO, they took off because the jet went about the weapons on the intermediate cartridge, and so they took off.

        I am not thrilled with SVT, but IMHO is no worse than Garanda (if made well, of course)
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. carbine
          carbine 24 February 2016 19: 45
          -10 qualifying.
          Quote: AK64
          Stopped to replace with what? AND! SCS + AK, that's what ...

          And how could SKS + AK replace a full-fledged rifle? Unless in Soviet non-erotic fantasies. All right, they would fantasize at their own expense. So no, it was your father or grandfather who was undernourished and incomplete in childhood because of such fantasies of Soviet strategists in red pants. And they were just fed and dressed for glory.
          Quote: AK64
          because the jet went about the weapons on the intermediate cartridge, so they took it off.

          Where and to whom did she go? I didn't notice such a jet. Can you tell where this jet went? I only know one more intermediate army cartridge, this cartridge 5,56 × 45 mm NATO mod. 60s of the last century. But he is "small", not classical.
          Quote: AK64
          I am not thrilled with SVT, but IMHO is no worse than Garanda (if made well, of course)

          Well, of course. Where to her. How can they be compared at all? Even the German G41 from Mauser, which, as you know, was g ..., and even better.
          1. AK64
            AK64 24 February 2016 20: 32
            +1
            And how could SKS + AK replace a full-fledged rifle? Unless in Soviet non-erotic fantasies.


            And what about me?
            You gave the "argument": CBT was so bad that it was abandoned after the war.
            As you can see, they refused in favor of SCS + AK.
            So I ask you: well, how is the refusal? Has it gotten better? SKS + AK is better than SVT (provided that it is let down?)


            because the jet went about the weapons on the intermediate cartridge, so they took it off.

            Where and to whom did she go? I didn't notice such a jet. Can you tell where this jet went? I only know one more intermediate army cartridge, this cartridge 5,56 × 45 mm NATO mod. 60s of the last century. But he is "small", not classical.

            This is something with your eyesight.
            How about 7.92x33? Really did not see?


            I am not thrilled with SVT, but IMHO is no worse than Garanda (if made well, of course)


            Well, of course. Where to her. How can they be compared at all? Even the German G41 from Mauser, which, as you know, was g ..., and even better.

            There are clumsy little hands. FAL is the same CBT in fact, and no one complained.
            Heavy, over FAL, but nothing more. About jamming not a word somehow
            1. carbine
              carbine 24 February 2016 22: 02
              -1
              Quote: AK64
              Has it gotten better? SKS + AK is better than SVT (provided that it is let down?)

              You ask too complex a question. Especially considering the fact that they could not do self-loading to this day. SVD, this is slightly shamanized SVT-40. Therefore, she is also a sniper, which was not possible to make a large resource (only 6000 shots). But snipers often do not shoot.
              I do not know. If we are perverted, then I am a supporter of adopting the Czech system on a cartridge of 7,62x45 mm.
              They went from providing an LMG rate of fire. As a result of the self-loading RPVRF, 400 m. DEPF is not enough, 370 m. At LMG, the RPVRF is 405 m, DEPT is 380 m. The cartridge with the classic bullet is also not enough, but we must not forget. It seems to me that the Czechs have squeezed out of it everything that is possible. It is a pity that the USSR did not take advantage of this.
              Quote: AK64
              How about 7.92x33? Really did not see?

              Is this a cartridge for ersatz wartime weapons in one, not the most advanced country in terms of shooting? Is this a jet? This is not even a trickle, but vanity out of the blue.
              Quote: AK64
              FAL is the same CBT in fact, and no one complained.

              How can one say such a thing? What is there from SVT? Gas extraction system? Why from SVT? And where does the SVT come from?
              Diedone Sav (one of the authors of FN FAL) received a patent for such a mechanism back in 1936. In 1939, his five-shot semi-automatic rifle was ready for release, but due to the beginning of 2MB its release was delayed. Therefore, in connection with the FN FAL, referring to the SVT-40 is somehow not camille. But on the contrary, just camille.
              1. AK64
                AK64 24 February 2016 22: 48
                0
                Is this a cartridge for ersatz wartime weapons in one, not the most advanced country in terms of shooting? Is this a jet? This is not even a trickle, but vanity out of the blue.

                Come on, these are "trendsetters" at that time. (For the Soviet generals, at least for sure.) And their 7.62x33 is not at all wartime ersatz.
                And finally: you just deigned to notice that to create a full-fledged rifle under a full-sized rifle cartridge has still not worked out. (You can create something, but it will be too much to weigh.)

                So what do you order?
                Ah, to invent 5.5x45 (well, approximately)? So, after all, the experience of the Japanese and Italians showed that even 6.5 is not enough enough ... Ah, to make it somersault ... So, after all, it is the Americans who can afford to give a damn about the Hague agreements - and get over it. And if the USSR tried to do such a chip, then the whole world would still scream at the evil Russian quilted jackets!

                So the choice, as you see, is not rich.



                How can one say such a thing? What is there from SVT? Gas extraction system? Why from SVT? And where does the SVT come from?
                Diedone Sav (one of the authors of FN FAL) received a patent for such a mechanism back in 1936. In 1939, his five-shot semi-automatic rifle was ready for release, but due to the beginning of 2MB its release was delayed. Therefore, in connection with the FN FAL, referring to the SVT-40 is somehow not camille. But on the contrary, just camille.


                Who, what, from whom and why stole let the court disassemble. Is it about FAL working? Well, if they tormented themselves, then the CBT might have managed to bring it to something ...

                One of the problems in the USSR is the lack of warmth among the bosses, who completely did not understand the specifics of OCD. and considered that "well, I drew the drawings - and that's it, into production." The bosses considered the whole process of debugging a whim and sabotage ...
                That's why raw developments went into the series, and then the drivers and tractor drivers repaired these troubles with a sledgehammer and such and such a mother.
                1. carbine
                  carbine 24 February 2016 23: 34
                  0
                  Quote: AK64
                  And their 7.62x33 is not a wartime ersatz at all.

                  What is this? What happened after the war under this wonderful cartridge?
                  Quote: AK64
                  So the choice, as you see, is not rich.

                  Not rich. Therefore, I had to choose my idols. The paradox is that the Czechs in the field of riflemen in those days stood very high. The Germans were very far from them. But for some reason they chose the German concept, not the Czech one. Why? After all, it was obvious that the German concept was an ersatz. Nobody repeated it after WW2 except the USSR. Very wrong decision. And it cost the USSR a lot.
                  Quote: AK64
                  Well, if they tormented themselves, then the CBT might have managed to bring it to something ...

                  What did SVD not bring? Not tormented? After all, the point is not even in reliable automation. The depreciation cost of 1 shot still matters. This indicator in SVD is very high, because trunk resource is small.
                  Quote: AK64
                  That's why raw developments went into the series, and then the drivers and tractor drivers repaired these troubles with a sledgehammer and such and such a mother.

                  We pass to the shortcomings of the political system?
                  1. AK64
                    AK64 24 February 2016 23: 54
                    0
                    What happened after the war under this wonderful cartridge?

                    And what could they do under him if they lost the war?
                    (Just don’t say that you lost because of this cartridge)

                    The paradox is that the Czechs in the field of riflemen in those days stood very high. The Germans were very far from them. But for some reason they chose the German concept, not the Czech one. Why? After all, it was obvious that the German concept was an ersatz. Nobody repeated it after WW2 except the USSR. Very wrong decision. And it cost the USSR a lot.

                    What did the Czechs do besides the light machine gun? Nothing special. And the Germans in Europe are clearly the first: a set of pistols, the first PP, and before the war a good PP (although all PP is equal to byaka), a "single" machine gun ... Then their Sturmgever (assault rifle). What do the British have, for comparison? Vibley revolver? (By the way, I like him - but ...)
                    What do the French have? Just nothing. The Belgians are still somehow traditional.

                    I think the Czechs as experts no one even considered. (In principle, of course, indeed in vain ... They have more than just a shooter.)

                    We pass to the shortcomings of the political system?


                    No. This is not a system - this is the incompetence of the authorities. As a result, "the plane was designed in 3 months" (Yak-1, if anything, not a fiction) and then fine-tuning it within 5 years ... (And the operation of a crude machine)

                    And so in everything.
                    1. carbine
                      carbine 25 February 2016 00: 48
                      0
                      Quote: AK64
                      And what could they do under him if they lost the war?

                      Okay, but what about the winners? Well, okay, Americans. They didn't need foreign vanderwafers, they had enough of their own. But the French? British? Spaniards, after all? The same Finns and Greeks? And the Austrians with the Swiss? Nobody took advantage of the vanderwfl. Because this "happiness" did not exist at all. His like-minded descendant and from the SA were trampled. In the 70s.
                      Quote: AK64
                      What did the Czechs do besides a light machine gun?

                      Grad system (prototype). 76 mm mountain cannon. 47 mm anti-tank gun (in the Wehrmacht Pak 36 (t)) arr. 36g Yes, a lot more. The same Vz.52 they began to do even before the capture of Germany. But then, for obvious reasons, they were interrupted.
                      Quote: AK64
                      And the Germans in Europe are clearly the first: a set of pistols, the first PP, and before the war a good PP (although all PPs are equal), a "single" machine gun ...

                      1. What is a set of pistols? Gift? Of all this sea of ​​squalor, I can only mention Walter P38, but he was already released before the war. And before that, only a funny laugh.
                      2. First? I think if you dig deeper, you can find a dozen more "very first". At the same time, I don't understand the "first" counter at all. As for me, the third is better, but the highest quality.
                      3. The point is that you have just voiced a famous Internet legend. The Germans did not have a single machine gun in the conventional sense of the term. They had a "single German machine gun". I would not like to go into all the details now, but it was a strange move, something like an "assault rifle". Only the "assault rifle" was cloned for some reason in the USSR. And the "single German machine gun" remained German. Neither before nor after the war was he released anywhere else.
                      Quote: AK64
                      What do British have for comparison?

                      Lee-Anfield, Lewis and Bren. What else is needed for a full battle? Stankach Vickers, however, was completely sucks (natural Maxim), but it was not as critical as in the Red Army, where except Maxim there was only DP. For some reason, the British did not make pistols. Bren, like an MP40. About the same.
                      It makes no sense to mention the French and the Belgians, they did not fight.
                      You can also remember the Italians. But those were great originals. Although their self-loading "Carcano" 91/38 and the handbrake "Breda" 30/38 on the 7,35x51 mm Carcano cartridge were nothing. And I will note to you, quite a serial product on a normal intermediate cartridge. Self-loading with a 530 mm barrel produced 2406 J DE, and a handbrake with a 520 mm barrel - 2331 J. And you say "the world's first stormmegever StG44". The Italians back in 1938. fortunately, they began to rearm. But cleverly, self-charging + LMG (handbrake). Without any machine guns there. Therefore, their cartridge is not a weak intermediate, but a normal intermediate. And the weapon is not "assault", i.e. a weakened army, but a full-fledged army.
                      Quote: AK64
                      this is the incompetence of the authorities

                      Where did such come from? The wind blew? Or has the system advanced?
                      1. AK64
                        AK64 25 February 2016 07: 26
                        0
                        Well, what about the winners? .... His offspring of a like-minded person and from the SA fluttered. In the 70s.

                        / admires /
                        You are so smart, almost like my wife later!
                        You would be in the strangers to Stalin --- You would have explained everything to him, both about the intermediate cartridge, and about the songs of Vysotsky!

                        And the truth is that no one could create reliable and easy automation for the PMV rifle cartridges, and everyone, all of Europe, began to somehow lighten the cartridges, albeit not as radically as the Germans with their 6.72x33.
                        Give a list, or do you find it yourself?

                        And the Americans were messing around, messing around with their miraculous waffens - but in the end, they also lightened the cartridge.
                        Another thing is that the Americans could brazenly afford to spit from the high bell tower on all the Hague conventions (because they are, of course, the empire of good!). But the USSR could not afford this, and within the framework of the traditional, not "expanding" and not fragmented, bullets, the USSR did not have any special elections.

                        And this is obvious to everyone except you, because you have a political bias: as soon as you are pressed against the wall, you turn on the system called "rationalization" (see Freud for what he was talking about).
                      2. karbine
                        karbine 25 February 2016 11: 45
                        0
                        Quote: AK64
                        You are so smart, almost like my wife later!

                        I am confused to ask, and then what then?
                        Quote: AK64
                        You would be in popadane to Stalin

                        Why trash? It was necessary to teach the people. Specialists. Invite teachers from abroad for a lot of money and teach.
                        Not Holodtrans to train in chemistry, physics and biology in large quantities, and then terribly proud of this insanity. And engage in specialized, but in-depth training of specialists.
                        But in the USSR this never happened, therefore it was tight with specialists. Although in some areas specialized and in-depth training was present. But this is after Dzhugashvili.
                        Quote: AK64
                        And the truth is that no one could create reliable and easy automation on the PMV rifle cartridges,

                        But what about the M1 Garand?
                        Quote: AK64
                        Give a list, or do you find it yourself?

                        Give. Just try to give serial, not experimental products. I offhand recall only Italians and their pre-war 7,35x51 mm Carcano.
                        Quote: AK64
                        And the Americans were messing around, messing around with their miraculous waffens - but in the end, they also lightened the cartridge.

                        But he still remained a rifle. It just got shorter and lighter. This topic, it is by the so-called intermediate cartridge.
                        Quote: AK64
                        and within the framework of the traditional, not "expanding" and not fragmented, bullets, the USSR did not have any special elections.

                        Well yes. What prevented the USSR from adopting a cartridge a little more powerful than 7,62x39 mm, as well as self-loading and a handbrake on it? Yes, lengthen the same AK and remake it under a different cartridge, removing the automatic fire mode, since everyone is so in love with it. Unprofessionalism interfered.
                        Quote: AK64
                        And this is obvious to everyone except you, because you have a political bias: as soon as you are pressed against the wall, you turn on a system called "rationalization"

                        How are you feeling?
                        PS. And where can you "get involved politically"? Can you tell me the address?
                      3. AK64
                        AK64 25 February 2016 13: 58
                        0
                        He wrote and wrote - but it again disappeared.

                        Well, what is it, huh?

                        They say too long.

                        I will not write
                      4. AK64
                        AK64 25 February 2016 13: 58
                        0
                        He wrote and wrote - but it again disappeared.

                        Well, what is it, huh?

                        They say too long.

                        I will not write
                  2. The comment was deleted.
          2. AK64
            AK64 25 February 2016 10: 17
            0
            You ask too complex a question. Especially considering the fact that they could not do self-loading to this day. SVD, this is slightly shamanized SVT-40. Therefore, she is also a sniper, which was not possible to make a large resource (only 6000 shots). But snipers often do not shoot.


            I look, you need an eye and an eye!
            Is this SVD "podshamanenaya SVT"? I am surprised that you have not been bombarded with rotten tomatoes (which, however, only speaks about the level of the public). Actually, these screws have completely different mechanisms, that is, they are simply and generally different. For example, for SVD, it is locked by turning the bolt, moreover, behind the barrel, and for SVT it is skewed.
            There is simply NOTHING in common.

            Well and most importantly: 6000 shots is a resource trunk. WALKING sniper rifle. Not even a receiver or a shutter, as you tell us here.

            Of course, the SVD is still difficult to be launched into the masses, and it is still complicated (that is, the gas outlet regulator is present, which for our average person already has an exorbitant level of complexity and care).

            Nevertheless, as we see, and what you said is not even true at all
            1. karbine
              karbine 25 February 2016 11: 04
              0
              Quote: AK64
              In fact, these screws have completely different mechanisms, that is, they are simple and generally different. for example, for SVD locking by turning the shutter, and for the barrel, and for SVT skew.

              So what? But the Achilles' heel, gas selection are almost the same. And a gas tap is available. Only in SVD its adjustment is two-stage, and in SVT five-step. In SVD, the adjustment rod is brought out and a special key is not required; in SVT, a subassembly and special key are required.
              Quote: AK64
              Not even a receiver or a shutter, as you tell us here.

              Actually, I was "talking" about the chamber. And this is a barrel element.
              Quote: AK64
              Nevertheless, as we see, and what you said is not even true at all

              Those. Is a product that has its main drawbacks not smoothed out but smoothed out already a good product? And for some reason I thought that good, which is without flaws.
              1. AK64
                AK64 25 February 2016 16: 14
                0
                SVD is not a "shamanized SVD" - this is
                The SVD has a "barrel resource", not all weapons - that's two.
                And the "barrel resource" of a sniper rifle, not an infantry one. And there are three OTHER requirements for sniper barrels.

                And what remains in the dry residue? The fact that the SVD has a gas regulator, and this, it turns out, is bad. We will not argue: this is really bad. It would be even better if it weren’t necessary to clean it at all - this is a serious flaw of Soviet engineers. Thoughtless.

                And, by the way, I’m not joking: here the Amerian engineers thought up. They made a wonderful rifle from which ... you can’t shoot with an ordinary cartridge. It needs special cartridges so that without burning and soot. M16 is called. If you put ordinary cartridges in it, then it is messed up and does not work. And with good ones, with gunpowder specially made for M16, she shoots well.

                But what if the Russians are not Americans: and they cannot afford special gunpowder so that they don’t clean the rifles?

                Oh, trouble .... sad
                1. karbine
                  karbine 25 February 2016 19: 07
                  0
                  Quote: AK64
                  And the "barrel resource" of a sniper rifle, not an infantry one. And there are three OTHER requirements for sniper barrels.

                  It is curious what kind of difference there is such a barrel resource? Is it like the less the better? And where does this difference come from, if all else being equal, the resource is determined by ballistics. And it is absolutely normal for SVD.
                  Quote: AK64
                  If you put ordinary cartridges in it, then it is messed up and does not work. And with good ones, with gunpowder specially made for M16, she shoots well.

                  You try to ride on the left gasoline. I don’t think your car will last long. As for the cartridges, the cartridges should be as they were meant by the manufacturer of weapons. And you will poke a substitute there, get problems.
                  Quote: AK64
                  But what if the Russians are not Americans: and they cannot afford special gunpowder so that they don’t clean the rifles?

                  Why so? Hands from the back began to grow, or what other reason? You could always afford it, but now for some reason it’s gone.
                2. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
  • gladcu2
    gladcu2 24 February 2016 21: 53
    +1
    rusty

    Nonsense. SVT was easy to maintain.

    Armed primarily border troops. The disadvantage was greatly afraid of pollution. Nevertheless, it was a serious argument and a very unpleasant surprise for the Wehrmacht.

    By the way, the concept of SVT was taken by the Germans when developing their automatic rifles. And the first options, with an attempt to avoid drilling the lateral surface of the trunk, for a gas outlet channel, were wildly unsuccessful, if not curious. But then they redid it.
    1. karbine
      karbine 25 February 2016 11: 12
      0
      Quote: gladcu2
      Nonsense. SVT was easy to maintain.

      She had 2 options:
      1. Easy to maintain. Then she did not serve long.
      2. It is difficult to maintain. Then delays could begin at any time in the battle.
      Quote: gladcu2
      By the way, the concept of SVT was taken by the Germans when developing their automatic rifles.

      Or maybe Seva? After all, Save received a patent for a gas vent mechanism back in 1936. Yes, and Belgium since 1940. was under Germany.
  • starper
    starper 24 February 2016 09: 19
    +5
    Father, and he went through the whole war, said that the soldiers preferred the PPSh, because it is more convenient due to the box magazine and is not susceptible to spontaneous shooting during strong blows and falls than the PPSh sinned. To my objection about the larger disk capacity of the PPSh, he replied that this is not enough, since holding and therefore aiming is not convenient and even after the first disc released in long bursts, the PPSh began to "spit" from overheating. And it is more difficult to charge the disc than the horn.
    1. AK64
      AK64 24 February 2016 09: 36
      0
      The disk in general ... byak: expensive, low-tech, jammed a cartridge there in addition.

      Note: the disks to the PCA had to be INDIVIDUALLY customized at the factory, they are not interchangeable.
      There were no such problems with horns. (Although due to the fact that the original PPSh for the disk, then the horn is not without problems for him, either.)
      1. brn521
        brn521 24 February 2016 11: 58
        +3
        Quote: AK64
        disks for PPSh had to be INDIVIDUALLY customized at the factory, they are not interchangeable.

        They write this. But not about full-fledged machines assembled at the factory according to all the rules, but about samples that were assembled in various workshops.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 24 February 2016 13: 57
          0
          Quote: brn521
          They write this. But not about full-fledged machines assembled at the factory according to all the rules, but about samples that were assembled in various workshops.

          From the Hansa: from NSD 1946 according to PPSh-41:

          1. brn521
            brn521 24 February 2016 14: 33
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            From the Hansa: from NSD 1946 according to PPSh-41:

            Precisely that of 1946. In warehouses of breakthrough machines, where only not made.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 24 February 2016 12: 21
      +3
      Quote: starper
      To my objection about the larger disk capacity of the PPSh, he replied that there is little sense in this, since holding and therefore aiming is not convenient, and even after the first disk released in long bursts, the PPSh began to "spit" from overheating. And it is more difficult to charge the disk than a horn.

      He-he-he ... about the advantages of the disk for the PP recently, either Ulanov, or someone else had a quote from the docks following the results of the Second World War: "a drive is better than a horn, because if you like all the stores, you can still fight with one drive".
      1. pimen
        pimen 24 February 2016 12: 30
        +1
        the disk is not bullshit, it just needs to be combined with horns
    3. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 18: 30
      -5
      Quote: starper
      To my objection to the larger capacity of the PCA disk, he replied that there was little use for it.

      Magazine capacity in a well-made weapon is not an arbitrary figure. It serves as "foolproof" and is selected taking into account the heat dissipation of the barrel, taking into account the planned rate of fire, heat supply to it, taking into account the rate of fire and the time to replace the magazine.
      In a weapon made on the principle of "faster, higher, stronger", everything is different. There should be a lot of everything. It is not clear why, but it should be. From this "spitting", from this "behavioral" trunks. But nothing. It doesn't matter, all this is covered and hidden by "legendary".
      1. AK64
        AK64 24 February 2016 19: 22
        0
        In a weapon made on the principle of "faster, higher, stronger", everything is different. There should be a lot of everything. It is not clear why, but it should be. From this "spitting", from this "behavioral" trunks. But nothing. It doesn't matter, all this is covered and hidden by "legendary".


        Hehe ...
        So the first disc put Schmeiser with Bergman, on the MP-18.
        (True, they thought a little later, and already on the MP-28 he was nafig removed)
        Then there was Lahti, with his Suomi. And Thompson, too, was later.

        And only later was comrade Diagterev pointed out: "What is it they have more than ours, eh, comrade Diagterev?"
        Well, since then it was dangerous not to accept hints, then
        1. carbine
          carbine 24 February 2016 19: 25
          -3
          Quote: AK64
          Schmeiser and Bergman were the first to put the disc on MP-18.

          And what kind of masterpiece is this, MP18? And who is this, Bergman? Yes, and in 1918?
          Quote: AK64
          Well, since then it was dangerous not to accept hints, then

          Maybe so. Or maybe they've seen enough of Lewis.
          1. AK64
            AK64 24 February 2016 20: 36
            0
            And what kind of masterpiece is this, MP18? And who is this, Bergman? Yes, and in 1918?

            Bergman in 1918, the owner of the factory in which this crib was produced.
            MP-18

            Schmeiser obtained a patent for this device, but it was produced by Bergman (or, otherwise, at the Bergman factory)


            Maybe so. Or maybe they've seen enough of Lewis.


            PPD was originally with a horn (for 20 or something cartridges). Photos on the net in dostaka.
            After the break, according to the Finnish results, they returned to the production of PPD. Well, this new version was already with the disk.
            Structurally, the drive is almost exactly like that of Lahti.
            1. carbine
              carbine 24 February 2016 22: 10
              -1
              Quote: AK64
              Bergman in 1918, the owner of the factory in which this crib was produced.

              I understand it. I do not understand what is the genius of the design?
              1. AK64
                AK64 24 February 2016 23: 06
                0
                I do not understand what is the genius of the design?


                Have I written about genius somewhere? Where?

                / in a panic, frantically interrupts the entire tape /

                I can’t find .... Here it is, insanity ...

                Oh, by the way, Tommy Gan has a drive too. Yes Yes.
                1. carbine
                  carbine 24 February 2016 23: 41
                  0
                  Quote: AK64
                  Oh, by the way, Tommy Gan has a drive too. Yes Yes.

                  How can I endure this pain? laughing
            2. carbine
              carbine 25 February 2016 01: 20
              0
              Quote: AK64
              PPD was originally with a horn (for 20 or something cartridges).

              Yes, I smoothly switched to DP, but forgot to say so.
          2. The comment was deleted.
    4. gross kaput
      gross kaput 25 February 2016 00: 14
      0
      Quote: starper
      soldiers preferred PPP

      The soldiers preferred what they were given smile PPS is the weapon of scouts, crews of armored vehicles, sappers and other specialists for whom shooting from personal weapons is not the main occupation smile he massively entered the infantry only in one place - near Leningrad, and only then until the blockade was lifted. Yes, and they were released ten times less than the PCA.
  • Vladimir
    Vladimir 24 February 2016 10: 45
    +3
    Quote: starper
    PPSh began to "spit" from overheating. And it is more difficult to charge a disc than a horn.


    By the way, "spit" I remembered reading somewhere that Chinese-made AKs quickly overheated and, as the author put it, "spit", this saved the lives of many of our soldiers in Afghanistan.
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 24 February 2016 12: 48
      +4
      The Chinese then did not know that the AK barrel in the USSR was manufactured by forging, and this leads to hardening of the barrel.
      The Chinese copy of the Su-27 had great vibrations at supersonic speeds - but it would seem easy to copy :) and the resource of the blades of the copied engine does not exceed 50 flight hours ...
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 24 February 2016 22: 40
        +1
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        The Chinese then did not know that the AK barrel in the USSR was manufactured by forging

        Somehow, the release of Type 56 (Chinese AK) began somewhat earlier than Mao and Khrushchev finally quarreled in 1962. so that production was organized by comrades from the USSR, we supplied equipment, tools, helped to debug production and trained personnel, including directly at Izhmash, so China also had a production license and complete those. documentation for AK, as well as dozens of other types of weapons.
  • shrimp
    shrimp 24 February 2016 11: 51
    0
    All the same, dad is more reliable than Thomson
    1. AK64
      AK64 24 February 2016 12: 57
      -2
      - More reliable than?
      - More reliable than Thompson!


      Well, no kidding: what is the "more reliable" PPSh? Yes ... nothing.
      Quite the opposite: Thompson is "more reliable" than the rather unreliable PCA.

      But Thompson is (a) heavy - he is heavier, and (2) five times more expensive, even in a low-fat military version of the M1A1 already.
      1. pimen
        pimen 24 February 2016 13: 12
        0
        on the photo above are open Thomson and PPSh disks. If you do not look at the caliber, then Thomson clearly has a denser landing of cartridges. With carob stores, there shouldn’t be a difference in reliability at all
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 24 February 2016 22: 58
          +1
          Quote: pimen
          then Thomson has a clearly denser landing of cartridges

          The trick is that the Tommy tambourine, due to the breakdown of the feeder into sectors, instead of a single feeder sliding in a snail at the PPSh is much easier to equip and more reliable, the same Chinese, having released their "version" of the RPK, did not copy the RPK tambourine (by design in many ways similar to PPSh) and made their own, constructively repeating Tommy's tambourine.
    2. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 18: 33
      -1
      Quote: shrimp
      All the same, dad is more reliable than Thomson

      A Lada reliable Ford?
      1. Chtononibrator
        Chtononibrator 24 February 2016 22: 52
        +1
        A Ford does not break?
  • Recoil
    Recoil 24 February 2016 11: 53
    +1
    For the first time I saw PCA and dismantled it at school, in the office of the NVP. Struck by his primitiveness - the receiver, spring with plywood emphasis, shutter and bed. The first thought is how such a primitive firearm could kill.
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 24 February 2016 12: 42
      +6
      this spring is not very simple
      The first springs on the PPD served very little, they quickly broke - the lack of experience in their manufacture affected them. They tried to make them layered, tried various steels - but could not stand it. By the time the PPSh was created, this difficult technical moment was resolved.
      Production was able to master the production of more or less reliable springs.
      This is not often written, but even in such simple types of weapons, there are a lot of trial and error.
      - Most Soviet gunsmiths (with the exception of Ak. Fedorov) did not have an engineering education and worked by typing (they tried it 100 times, it didn’t work, it turned out 101 times).
      1. carbine
        carbine 24 February 2016 18: 39
        -4
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        most Soviet gunsmiths (with the exception of ac. Fedorov) did not have an engineering education

        And Fedorov did not have it. He was an artillery officer.
        In addition to the account of ac. you got excited. And very much.
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        had no engineering background and worked by poking

        That is why it is strange to read about "excellent Soviet small arms". Where would he come from if there were no specialists in the country? And you can't push it to the Civil, they weren't even under the tsar. Those. there was no "school" at all in the USSR. Never and never. But you can read about the "brilliant weapon" all the time. Paradox.
        1. Chtononibrator
          Chtononibrator 24 February 2016 22: 56
          +3
          Quote: carbine
          Those. there was no "school" at all in the USSR. Never and never.

          You didn’t seem to have a school)))
        2. Manul
          Manul 26 February 2016 00: 59
          0
          Quote: carbine
          But you can read about the "brilliant weapon" all the time. Paradox.

          Well, yes, there were no specialists. But there were enough geniuses. I gave you too many pluses, I didn’t want you to be driven into your skulls - you give a lot of sensible information. But for this comment there is definitely a refusal. You did not bother to read the stories of the creation of many of our achievements .. Actually they were created by the Lapotniks. And we are all like that. And the disadvantages you get are not that you oppose. But because you belittle the merits of Russian weapons. I am sure there will be a conversation about swords, you will surely blame the damask steel and admire Damascus steel. But the fact that you know a lot about the subject matter makes me ask, comrades, stop dropping him in the minus. Man frankly does not troll, is not rude, and very reasonably sets out. Personally, I am very interested. Of course, he mixes the truth with a lie, but very informative. (It’s a pity that a person doesn’t understand that PPSh is a weapon of victory. And three-ruler. And T-34. And IL-2. And boots, quilted jackets and footcloths. And so we have huge respect for the names, and the pretense neglect of this respect naturally causes a well-deserved response.)
        3. DimerVladimer
          DimerVladimer 16 November 2017 14: 20
          +1
          Quote: carbine
          And Fedorov did not have it. He was an artillery officer.


          To you a secret - the pre-revolutionary technical officers' schools were not inferior, and in some ways superior to the "civilian" educational institutions in them, the teaching staff was more educated and experienced.
      2. Slug_BDMP
        25 February 2016 00: 07
        +2
        You will laugh a lot, but Hugo Schmeisser and Eugene Stoner (so to speak) did not have a higher technical education either.
  • DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 24 February 2016 12: 20
    +1
    From a technical point of view, it is not entirely correct to compare PP with a 20-year difference, Thompson - which was created by a private company for commercial sales (hence the corresponding workmanship) and PPSh (taken as the basis for Finnish Suomi) with deep modernization for mass production.
    Soviet designers-gunsmiths had the opportunity to study samples of foreign weapons, borrow the best solutions (which was patent science at that time :), simplify.

    The fact that Thompson "smokes aside" is an exaggeration, he is more accurate in automatic firing mode, and in single firing. Although the efficiency of Thompson is up to 100 m. So it is difficult to get single from the PPSh from the open bolt (due to the massive bolt that knocks down the sight when moving forward).

    In general, choosing weapons for circumstances, the situation is extremely rare - for example, the Soviet regimental reconnaissance of the Second World War (coma of cover groups) preferred to take MP-40/41 to the outputs - for obvious reasons (camouflage, compactness, ammunition availability).
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 24 February 2016 12: 52
      0
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      PCA (based on Finnish Suomi)

      "Suomi" is the same generation as "tommy-gun" and domestic PPD. A typical PP of the early 30s is expensive and difficult to manufacture (our PPD-34 was only slightly cheaper than a full-fledged DP-27 light machine gun).
      PCA is a mobilization weapon intended for mass production at non-core enterprises.
      So the PPSh has to do with Suomi only in that the domestic disk store appeared under the impression of the Finnish PP. And, by the way, the first disk magazine received the PPD.
      1. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 24 February 2016 13: 06
        +2
        I do not argue - the development timeline is about the same.
        Let us clarify that the PPD had a disk store long before the PCA, and Thompson long before the PPD, and before Thompson it was MP18 (although the construction is not quite similar there). Imitation of the best in the military sphere is not considered plagiarism :)
        Moreover, in his memoirs he read that Stalin insisted on a disk store at one meeting following the results of the Finnish company, since the disk store allegedly provided a higher density of fire.
        Since the NKVD (frontier guards) had the PDP and who had the squad, which did not often have to crawl with him before the war, no one expected difficulties in operation (equipment, loosening the spring, skew of the cartridge) in disk stores.
        1. carbine
          carbine 24 February 2016 19: 00
          -5
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          and before Thompson was MP18 (although there is not quite a similar design). Imitation of the best in the military - not considered plagiarism

          Thompson and MP18 are about as much in common as a cat and dog have four legs and a tail. But this is no reason to make them relatives.
          The Americans have never had such weapons as "European submachine guns" before. They simply did not understand how THIS could be fought. Their weakest military weapon (M1 Carbine) was no match for European submachine guns. But it was also for the support staff.
          An American’s life costs money (envy can be started right now). Therefore, no one has ever armed him with garbage.
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          no one expected difficulties in operation (equipment, spring loosening, cartridge misalignment) in disk stores

          And state tests before putting into production for what? This is just their task. reveal such things.
        2. gross kaput
          gross kaput 24 February 2016 23: 44
          0
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          We will specify that PPD had a disk store long before PPSh

          Again, fantasies - the first prototypes of disk stores for PPD (a suomi disk with a neck for joining PPD 34/38) appeared in mid-January 1940, a disk for PPD with a split stock (future PPD 40) was presented by Degtyarev on February 15, 1940. and PCA adopted
          December 21, 1940, no doubt very long laughing
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          Moreover, in his memoirs he read that Stalin insisted on a disk store at one meeting following the results of the Finnish company

          Stalin insisted only on increasing the production of PPD, the GAU insisted on tambourines, and Joseph Vissarionovich already learned that "round discs with 73 rounds for the PPD submachine gun have been designed and manufactured" laughing
      2. carbine
        carbine 24 February 2016 18: 54
        -5
        Quote: Alexey RA
        full-fledged light machine gun DP-27)

        Was the DP-27 a "full-fledged light machine gun"? When and where? And why was its complete analogue in performance characteristics the American BAR called "Browning automatic rifle" then?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 February 2016 10: 26
          0
          Quote: carbine
          Was the DP-27 a "full-fledged light machine gun"? When and where? And why was its complete analogue in performance characteristics the American BAR called "Browning automatic rifle" then?

          Features of the national classification. In Poland, the same BAR went like a light machine gun.
          And by the way, since the DP is a complete analogue of the BAR, then when did the DP switch to power from 20-cartridge stores? wink

          DP is better not to compare with BAR, but with “Lewis”. By the way, the capacity of the disc, and that, and the other - 47 rounds.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. karbine
            karbine 25 February 2016 10: 45
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Features of the national classification. In Poland, the same BAR went like a light machine gun.

            Do not fantasize. Both BAR and DP were automatic rifles. This is a characteristic of the rate of fire of a weapon and it is reflected in the NSD. And they could call them, as you like. In the USA, they were called honestly, AR, i.e. automatic rifle. And Poland and the USSR, they fantasized.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            then when did the DP switch to power from 20-cartridge stores?

            But what, the capacity of the store, or even the type of food, somehow affect the class of weapons? Seriously speaking, BAR stores are more appropriate for such weapons. And protection from the fool, and weapons are easier.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            DP is better not to compare with BAR, but with “Lewis”. By the way, the capacity of the disc, and that, and the other - 47 rounds.

            You don’t have to say anything about topics that you don’t understand. Lewis, like Bren, are machine guns. LMG. And BAR and DP, this is AR. Weapons of different classes.
    2. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 18: 49
      -2
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      From a technical point of view, it is not entirely correct to compare PP with a 20-year difference, Thompson - which was created by a private company for commercial sales (hence the corresponding workmanship) and PPSh (taken as the basis for Finnish Suomi) with deep modernization for mass production.

      It is generally incorrect to compare them. These are completely different things. Only amateurs compare a howitzer with a cannon, making "serious conclusions". Although, of course, both howitzers and the cannon fire shells. It's the same here.
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      Although the efficiency of Thompson is up to 100 m.

      This is utter nonsense. He (from the time of 2MB) even has a direct range of 190 m.
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      She preferred to take MP-40/41 to the outputs - for obvious reasons (camouflage, compactness, ammunition availability).

      Something German intelligence did not carry with them because of the availability of PPSh ammunition. And where are these "available ammunition" scattered along the paths?
    3. gross kaput
      gross kaput 24 February 2016 23: 27
      +2
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      PCA (based on Finnish Suomi) with deep modernization

      Nonsense is not necessary to smack, there is only a tambourine from Suomi, by design these are completely different PPs, although on the same principle of automation inherent in the vast majority of PPs (free shutter, a shot from the rear sear), at least sometimes before expressing your "expert opinion" at least take a look at the cut.
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      MP-40/41

      Where did they take the first forty? not otherwise comrade Himler sent directly via field communication? laughing
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      So getting into PPSH with an open shutter in solitary mode is difficult
      Come on?! the trouble is that now the people have a lot of civilized PPSh in their hands, and here's the thing - practice somewhat contradicts your theory. laughing
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      The first springs on the PPD served very little, they quickly broke - the lack of experience in their manufacture affected them. They tried to make them layered, tried various steels - but could not stand

      What a dreamer you are, the PPD was adopted in 1934, modernized in 1935, 1937, in 1938 (which is reflected in the name 34/38) in 1939 and in 1940 (also the change in the name of PPD 40), but that's what a bad luck during this epic significantly or not really finalized almost all elements except .... reciprocating spring laughing
    4. Manul
      Manul 26 February 2016 01: 02
      0
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      From a technical point of view, it is not entirely correct to compare PP with a 20-year difference, Thompson - which was created by a private company for commercial sales (hence the corresponding workmanship) and PPSh (taken as the basis for Finnish Suomi) with deep modernization for mass production.

      good You dug up the gist. Thank you!
      PS Is it only purely for commercial? Still, for a long time they tried for the army, and she threw them. Like we’re not fighting and gone. But the machine didn’t really go out badly, so it took root ..
  • brn521
    brn521 24 February 2016 12: 52
    +4
    Vague memories of Drabkin's series "I fought on ...".
    Thompson was supplied to us together with American tanks, but he didn't go. It was positioned as an auxiliary weapon for tankers. Required regular care, which not everyone and not always could provide. However, the same applies to the PPSh. There were also serious complaints about penetration - the pistol .45 is sensitive to cold, with a drop in temperature it loses its muzzle velocity too quickly. As a result, at -20 does not always penetrate even winter clothes. We needed a reinforced submachine gun cartridge, which apparently was not supplied or made.
    PCA is evaluated differently. Some scold for the mass and uncomfortable store. Cases of spontaneous shots are described - it is enough to strike a butt with something slightly. Others are praised for their accuracy and reliability. A case is described when it was possible to maintain a position against superior enemy forces due to a pair of submachine gunners with PPSh, who pressed attacking fire at a certain distance and forced them to roll back, preventing them from crawling to the distance of a grenade throw. In principle, some reviews from other sources are quite consistent: the effective range of lying from a stop is 100-150 m., Plus a flat trajectory, plus a capacious drum, combined with a high rate of fire, which allows you to quickly sort out targets along the front without delay. Those. theoretically, PPSh at such distances could work out like a machine gun. I doubt that the Thompson cartridge could provide anything comparable even with a reinforced cartridge. But Thompson had an interesting potential - the possibility of using a silencer, which, as far as I know, was never used here.
    1. AK64
      AK64 24 February 2016 13: 03
      -5
      Stop telling tales: it's not even funny.

      Long text - and in it .... continuous tales
      1. Chisayna
        Chisayna 24 February 2016 13: 41
        +3
        You re-read your tales.
        1. AK64
          AK64 24 February 2016 15: 55
          -2
          You re-read your tales.


          Poke your finger at least in one - and I will surely count
      2. Manul
        Manul 26 February 2016 01: 25
        0
        Quote: AK64
        Long text - and in it .... continuous tales

        I read everything that you wrote above. There is nothing that our "fairy tales" would object to. Can you tell in more detail what is wrong with the flatness, witnesses from Drabkin, or anything else?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer 24 February 2016 13: 14
      +2
      I was reading the memoirs of one partisan who, allegedly hiding in the forest, confronted almost a company of policemen: from the PPSh, he shot 37 killed and wounded with single fire.
      Considering the usual "lie" by 2 times, characteristic of the memories of that period - I believe that he could have laid 20 people, which indicates the effectiveness of fire from these weapons in a combat situation ...
      1. brn521
        brn521 24 February 2016 14: 53
        +1
        Quote: DimerVladimer
        I was reading the memoirs of one partisan who, allegedly hiding in the forest, confronted almost a company of policemen: from the PPSh, he shot 37 killed and wounded with single fire.

        According to the instruction of 46, the PPSh should, with careful and uniform aiming, put 100 bullets out of 3 into a circle 4 cm in diameter at 20 m. And this is not the norm, but the boundary value that defines a killed or defective specimen. Users quite seriously talk about 10 cm as normal.
        1. carbine
          carbine 24 February 2016 19: 19
          -4
          Quote: brn521
          should put 100 bullets out of 3 into a circle with a diameter of 4 cm per 20m.

          Let's complicate the task. Let's say the "circle" is alive. And out of 3 bullets, not a single one hit a vital organ. Do you know what will happen if from the same distance the "circle" from Thompson hits you in the thigh? The corpse will be. And he will hit, the distance is trifling for him.
          And in general, it is not compatible with the standards of an athlete to approach army weapons. Different goals and objectives.
        2. Manul
          Manul 26 February 2016 01: 29
          0
          Quote: brn521
          According to the instruction of 46, the PPSh should, with careful and uniform aiming, put 100 bullets out of 3 into a circle 4 cm in diameter at 20 m. And this is not the norm, but the boundary value that defines a killed or defective specimen. Users quite seriously talk about 10 cm as normal.

          Somehow it's very cool ... what
          So is this a guide to trials, or ordinary shooting?
          1. brn521
            brn521 26 February 2016 15: 13
            0
            Quote: Manul
            So is this a guide to trials, or ordinary shooting?

            Section "bringing the machine to normal combat":
            http://www.nastavleniya.ru/PPCH/ppchs.htm
            By the way, on the same site is a guide to Thompson, which ours whipped up from US instructions.
            http://www.nastavleniya.ru/PPT/ppts.htm
      2. AK64
        AK64 24 February 2016 16: 03
        0
        So: All PP is equal. All - both ours and not ours.
        To talk about some kind of "accuracy" of shooting from a PP is ridiculous. From any - equal.
        Based on personal experience: at 25 m it is almost impossible to put at least half of the shots at the chest target in bursts. No, you get into it, of course, but purely "according to the theory of probability."
        And all the PPs are the same.

        And even single, because from the rear whispered, even at 50m you can only get by accident.

        So ...

        I am not convincing you of anything. But my personal experience is like this - no-on-vi-ju PP
        1. alex86
          alex86 24 February 2016 21: 01
          +1
          Quote: AK64
          Based on personal experience: put at least half of the shots at the chest target at 25 m in bursts

          Forgive me, I’ll be a little disgraced: in the year 88, we were taken to firing at small gatherings in the winter. So, from the AK on a thoracic target against the wind in a blizzard (and with a vision of -5,5, i.e. either a target or a front sight), according to the testimony of an officer-watcher, he missed 15 meters higher. For what I bought, for that I sell ...
      3. The comment was deleted.
    4. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 19: 08
      -2
      Quote: brn521
      loses its initial speed too quickly.

      You are contrary to the laws of physics. Rather, they contradict you.
      Quote: brn521
      As a result, at -20 it does not always break even winter clothes.

      Not even funny.
      Quote: brn521
      effective shooting range from a stop 100-150 m.

      What is effective shooting? And why couldn't Thompson shoot at this range if the range of his direct shot was 190 m?
      Quote: brn521
      plus lay trajectory

      So Thompson also had the same "flat trajectory". Up to 190 m.
      Quote: brn521
      Those. theoretically PPSh at such distances could well work out like a machine gun

      No, dear, I could not. The machine is different from the machine gun (among other things), so it’s rate of fire. The machine guns (there are many categories), it is much higher. Even at LMG it has 100-150 rounds per minute. And at the most advanced machine guns (SMG), it has 80-10 rounds per minute.
      Quote: brn521
      I doubt that the Thompson cartridge could provide anything comparable even with a reinforced cartridge.

      Not only do you compare the cannon (Thompson) with the slingshot (PCA). You still doubt that the gun shoots better than a slingshot.
    5. gross kaput
      gross kaput 25 February 2016 09: 48
      +1
      Quote: brn521
      Thompson was delivered to us together with American tanks, but he didn't go

      Who told you that? The Thompsons and Ratings were supplied to themselves on their own, but not for long, as soon as the mass production of PPSh was established, they were rejected - not because of TTX, but as it became too short and there was no sense in paying too much for deliveries. In total, 137729 were supplied with software, of which one third of raises. But they transferred them mainly to the armament of units using American equipment - only this thing for the tanker PP is far from the main weapon. The second contingent is the rear units, the protection of airfields, etc. - i.e. those who practically do not shoot, but again, the reason here is not in the technical specifications, but in the banal supply of ammunition directly to infantry units.
  • Grigorievich
    Grigorievich 24 February 2016 13: 39
    +1
    Quote: brn521
    Quote: AK64
    disks for PPSh had to be INDIVIDUALLY customized at the factory, they are not interchangeable.

    They write this. But not about full-fledged machines assembled at the factory according to all the rules, but about samples that were assembled in various workshops.

    And just two disks per machine were made.
    Quote: otto meer
    Quote: Siberia 9444
    The Nazis also realized that the PCA is more reliable. And that passed PPS Thomson smokes on the sidelines. He held the PPSh heavy with a tambourine of more than 5 kg but on the other hand he would smash the enemy’s head to smithereens.
    They didn’t understand anything, they just had very little of their own, and the need will compel.

    MP40 for all the time it was released about a million, but only PPSh about 6mil. In the SS preferred with a round store.
  • starper
    starper 24 February 2016 13: 53
    0
    In one article from a foreign magazine, it was written: Russians having established mass production of PCA, buried the art of making weapons. I understand that in this way they, although in a veiled way, recognized the superiority of our designers.
    1. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 19: 51
      0
      Quote: starper
      buried art of making weapons

      If the phrase "buried the art of making weapons" for you may mean "the superiority of our designers", then apparently yes.
  • brn521
    brn521 24 February 2016 14: 09
    +4
    Quote: AK64
    Long text - and in it .... continuous tales

    I referred to Drabkin, whose collections contain very specific recollections of the participants of the Second World War. You, I see, are one of the great experts, who are not like me, who have never held PPSh or Thompson in their hands, and moreover, have not shot either from the stop or in any other way. I recommend writing a rebuttal article, otherwise many read Drabkin, but you are practically nobody. It will be interesting to look at specific samples and their performance.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 24 February 2016 17: 39
      0
      Quote: brn521
      You, I see, are one of the great experts, who are not like me, who have never held PPSh or Thompson in their hands, much less shoot either from the stop or in any other way

      Ahem ... the answer is a little higher:
      Quote: AK64
      So: All PP is equal. All - both ours and not ours.
      To talk about some kind of "accuracy" of shooting from a PP is ridiculous. From any - equal.
      Based on personal experience: At 25m, putting at least half of the shots at the chest target in bursts is almost unbelievable. No, you get into it, of course, but purely "according to the theory of probability."
      And all the PPs are the same.

      And even single, because from the rear whispered, even at 50m you can only get by accident.

      So ...

      I am not convincing you of anything. But my personal experience he is like that - no-on-vi-ju PP
  • Engineer
    Engineer 24 February 2016 14: 36
    0
    From the grandfather's stories, the most unreliable part of the PPSh was the drum - if the cartridge jammed in it, then it was simply changed, because nothing could be done with it in the battle. He, as a reconnaissance spotter of artillery fire, took only horns for sorties, and not drum shops. Lighter PPPs were not popular with them because of their lower reliability, although they were easier. The German weapons MP38 / 40 were also never taken for sorties - these are all fabrications of filmmakers who always caused him indignation - they trusted life only to their faithful PCA.
    1. brn521
      brn521 24 February 2016 15: 02
      0
      Quote: Engineer
      The German weapons MP38 / 40 were also never taken for sorties - these are all inventions of filmmakers

      At first, we did not have enough weapons and ammunition, and for the PPSh horns did not begin to be made right away.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 25 February 2016 14: 21
      0
      for Engineer:
      "if the cartridge got stuck in it, then it was simply changed,
      because in battle with him nothing can be done "////

      The trick was to replace the drum with an "alien"
      (from another barrel) was impossible. 2 weapons were given
      "individual" store, manually adjusted only to
      him. This is due to poor stamping quality.
      Weapons and 2 drum stores were even numbered to
      do not mix up.
      With the horns it became normal.
  • User_internet
    User_internet 24 February 2016 14: 41
    0
    PPSh to reduce the rate of fire in half, i.e., to 500 instead of 1000, he would not have a price. And so, in the heat of battle, the store will be released in 7-10 seconds and that's it. Somehow I tried to equip the SKH. The grocery store was getting better, but you can charge it in battle, in the warm season with grief in half, but in winter ...
    1. AK64
      AK64 24 February 2016 16: 12
      +1
      PPSh to reduce the rate of fire in half, i.e., to 500 instead of 1000, he would not have a price.


      At PPSa and the rear, the rate of fire is slightly lower: somewhere around 600-800.

      But in general ... All PPs are equally byak. All.
      There is no way to talk about target firing from PP: you can only get into the barn.
      Therefore, with the quality of workmanship, there is no sense in bothering.

      PP is originally a trench broom, weapons of assault groups (somewhere around every 2nd or 3rd is good to have.) This also has an effective range of 50 m. And what is not accurate - so, due to the rate of fire, we’ll get somewhere , and aiming in a trench battle anyway once.

      Here in such close combat at point blank PP and the best.
      And outside these conditions: well, against the crowd there, and all that. But as the main weapons of the army - only from complete hopelessness and the wrong war
    2. AK64
      AK64 24 February 2016 16: 12
      0
      PPSh to reduce the rate of fire in half, i.e., to 500 instead of 1000, he would not have a price.


      At PPSa and the rear, the rate of fire is slightly lower: somewhere around 600-800.

      But in general ... All PPs are equally byak. All.
      There is no way to talk about target firing from PP: you can only get into the barn.
      Therefore, with the quality of workmanship, there is no sense in bothering.

      PP is originally a trench broom, weapons of assault groups (somewhere around every 2nd or 3rd is good to have.) This also has an effective range of 50 m. And what is not accurate - so, due to the rate of fire, we’ll get somewhere , and aiming in a trench battle anyway once.

      Here in such close combat at point blank PP and the best.
      And outside these conditions: well, against the crowd there, and all that. But as the main weapons of the army - only from complete hopelessness and the wrong war
      1. pimen
        pimen 24 February 2016 16: 56
        0
        Quote: AK64

        And outside these conditions: well, against the crowd there, and all that. as the main weapons of the army - only from complete hopelessness and the wrong war

        well, you said! Therefore, the beauty "light" was taken away, and this "misunderstanding" was accepted and kept up to 51g; out of thoughtlessness, from hopelessness and in the wrong war
        1. AK64
          AK64 24 February 2016 17: 02
          +1
          Therefore, the beauty "light" was taken away, and this "misunderstanding" was accepted and kept up to 51g; out of thoughtlessness, from hopelessness and in the wrong war


          Exactly so: the PCA during the war, how many have done horror.

          You haven’t seen the German Walls yet .... (Yes, and your own English, late-military dressing ...) Find on occasion in a museum - this .. Something ... a nightmare of a drunken plumber.
          1. pimen
            pimen 24 February 2016 17: 13
            0
            I'm not talking about a technological nightmare, I also "think" that "light" is a much more suitable weapon for the army than the same AK. But I don't admit for a second that our copper-headed warriors are as dumb as you write
            1. AK64
              AK64 24 February 2016 19: 35
              +1
              But I do not for a second admit that our copper-headed warriors are as stupid as you write


              And there was plenty to choose from? Were there warehouses, warehouses, warehouses with rifles somewhere?

              Please note that not a single army in the world before WWII considered weapons at all (well, except maybe the Finns). And this is not due to stupidity, as the current couch wise men write - just a weapon with such characteristics didn’t fall to anyone.

              Initially, software (MP-18, Schmeiser-Bergman) is trench broom, he had a very specific niche

              But By the fall of 1941, the Red Army lost ... 6 million rifles (!!!)
              SIX MILLION. You think about it.
              Voroshilov began to seriously consider ... forging a peak (!!)
              I am not kidding. Peak. In 1941
              Stalin said to him, "What are you, Klim, absolutely ... are you feeling bad? We are looking for something."
              In 1941, literally any gunshot was shaken with a British, then with an amer ... But while they swayed with their convoys, they mastered this wonderful miracle ...

              If you take into account where, how and by whom it was produced - then this is ... a fantastic weapon, yeah.

              When the Germans were pressed, they also began to do for the Volkssturm TA-KO-E that ... she was a complete guard: this must be seen, you cannot describe it in words.
              1. carbine
                carbine 24 February 2016 20: 06
                -2
                Quote: AK64
                And this is not due to stupidity, as the current couch wise men write - just a weapon with such characteristics didn’t fall to anyone.

                +
                I’ll add only, it was not considered as really fighting. And so, for the warden-cooks, just right. The cartridge is standard.
            2. carbine
              carbine 24 February 2016 20: 05
              -2
              Quote: pimen
              I also "seem" that "light" is a much more suitable weapon for the army than the same AK.

              Theoretically, yes, you are absolutely right. Almost no, because % of its delays are catastrophic. AK, contrary to mythology, also has it. But much less than that of SVT.
              Quote: pimen
              oh I don’t admit for a second that our copper-headed warriors are as stupid as you write

              They weren't stupid, they were incompetent. And they, and "fellow designers". More or less deliberate actions in the field of small arms can be traced only somewhere from the 70s. And before that, full of ales kaput. Starting from the funny cartridge 6,35x15R TK (and weapons on it) and ending with the same funny cartridge 9 × 18 mm PM (and weapons on it). 5,45x39 mm here already stands apart, the motivation why it is so clear. But why is he like that, no longer. But here, at least, not everything is clear.
              1. pimen
                pimen 24 February 2016 20: 26
                0
                Well, but in my opinion, the whole point is that small arms in a large-scale war are not the task of either the first, second, or even third stage. How long does an average infantryman with all his skills live in such a war? So, it’s probably right to put reliability and low cost in the first place
                1. carbine
                  carbine 24 February 2016 20: 40
                  -1
                  Quote: pimen
                  Well, but in my opinion, the whole point is that small arms in a large-scale war are not the task of either the first, second, or even third stage.

                  How to say. See table.
                  Quote: pimen
                  How long does an average infantryman with all his skills live in such a war? So, it’s probably right to put reliability and low cost in the first place

                  So that the next skills to be instilled?
                  1. carbine
                    carbine 24 February 2016 20: 43
                    0
                    You can still do that.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 24 February 2016 17: 45
          +3
          Quote: pimen
          Therefore, the beauty "light" was taken away, and this "misunderstanding" was accepted and kept up to 51g; out of thoughtlessness, from hopelessness and in the wrong war

          Sveta was buried from the impossibility of ensuring its operation by the forces of the existing personnel.
          The disdainful attitude towards the instruction on the storage and conservation of weapons in military units / § 222, 242 /, ignorance of the device of automatic weapons, its disassembly rules were brought to such a state that automatic rifles "ABC", submachine guns "Degtyarev", when disassembled by hardening started in the gas paths, the entire gas exhaust unit is covered with rust, the surface of the barrel and other parts are heavily rusty. The same state of gas paths and the DP machine guns.

          In parts of 97 SD rifles manufactured in 1940. , which were on hand for no more than 4 months, up to 29% are reduced to a state of rust in the barrel, machine guns "DP" manufactured in 1939 to 14% also have a deterioration of the barrel channels.
          (c) Learn uv. Ulanova
          The gas regulator, the requirement for daily lubrication and the possibility of improper assembly of the SVT turned out to be too difficult even for the regular infantry of the late 30s. What can we say about the l / s of the freshly mobilized "three hundredth" divisions.

          As practice has shown, for the normal handling of the SVT, either a fighter of the working battalion or a fighter of naval rifle units (that is, a former crew member) was required. That is, with education not lower than average. And even in the elite BTVs, 2/3 of the personnel had 3-7 classes.
          1. pimen
            pimen 24 February 2016 17: 58
            0
            it is not necessary to exaggerate the complexity and hemorrhage of the operation of CBT, and even more so - to attract the need for secondary education to its service. We are talking about the concept of a personal weapon of a linear infantryman. I believe that we just coolly misunderstand the topic, since in a real, and more than serious war, the PCA replaced the SVT
            1. carbine
              carbine 24 February 2016 20: 16
              0
              Quote: pimen
              I believe that we just coolly misunderstand the topic, since in a real, and more than serious war, the PCA replaced the SVT

              No, we are completing the phrases "there is nothing to shoot with" and "bit bitch * a".
              Quote: pimen
              do not exaggerate the complexity and creepiness of the operation of CBT

              The gas regulator has 5 positions. To adjust it, a special key and a partial disassembly of the rifle were needed. Rifle failure could occur at any time with no stock adjustment. When adjusting "with a margin", the shutter gradually broke the receiver in reverse, and in the forward movement, the chamber.
              A miracle of Soviet design thought, what can I say. Therefore, they armed the marines and snipers (at first, then they refused it). Because they fired less at them, and it was less necessary to replace her for reasons of running out of resources.
              1. pimen
                pimen 24 February 2016 20: 55
                +1
                Quote: carbine

                The gas regulator has 5 positions. To adjust it, a special key and a partial disassembly of the rifle were needed. Rifle failure could occur at any time with no stock adjustment. When adjusting "with a margin", the shutter gradually broke the receiver in reverse, and in the forward movement, the chamber.
                A miracle of Soviet design thought, what can I say. Therefore, they armed the marines and snipers (at first, then they refused it). Because they fired less at them, and it was less necessary to replace her for reasons of running out of resources.

                oh well dramatize. You still forgot to say that the operating conditions of the automation of a weapon, clutched in a vice, and in the hands of a dystrophic, vary greatly
                1. carbine
                  carbine 24 February 2016 21: 07
                  -1
                  Quote: pimen
                  oh well dramatize.

                  Is that drama? Drama, this is when the enemy rushing, and you screw stuck. This is a drama.
                  1. pimen
                    pimen 24 February 2016 21: 11
                    0
                    it's me just about the evidence of your tablet
                  2. AK64
                    AK64 25 February 2016 18: 01
                    0
                    and you screw stuck. This is a drama.


                    Pimpochka square such see on a branch pipe?
                    So, I’m reporting: this is the notorious nut of the CBT gas regulator, for turning which, according to the carbine, you need to disassemble the rifle.
                    And a special key is needed, yeah ...

                    I won’t say that I can turn this gadget with my fingers, I won’t. But holding it between two coins - most likely I will turn it (unless of course the unfortunate rifle is not overgrown with dirt in four layers - but then the key will not help either.)

                    And to disassemble in order to turn - that I certainly will not - that is not an American man what a part.

                    PS: add.

                    As I understand it, here it is:
                    if there wouldn’t be a regulator on the CBT, we would be told that the CBT is not good because there is even a gas regulator on it and that’s not there.
                    Well, since there is one - then for the lack of a rifle its presence is already given out: byaka because there is a regulator.

                    And this despite the fact that the critic-carbine does not even know exactly where this regulator is located on the rifle.

                    \ and shook his head \
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                    3. karbine
                      karbine 25 February 2016 18: 51
                      0
                      Quote: AK64
                      need to disassemble the rifle.

                      I wrote to disassemble. This is somewhat different.
                      Quote: AK64
                      And a special key is needed, yeah ...

                      I need it. Just do not turn.
                      Quote: AK64
                      But holding it between two coins - most likely I will turn

                      Funny.
                      Quote: AK64
                      And this despite the fact that the critic-carbine does not even know exactly where this regulator is located on the rifle.

                      See extract from NSD. It’s all very bad for you on CBT.
          2. carbine
            carbine 24 February 2016 20: 10
            -1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Sveta was buried from the impossibility of ensuring its operation by the forces of the existing personnel.

            Damn, what composition? See% of its delays in the picture a little higher.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            As practice has shown, for the normal handling of the SVT, either a fighter of the working battalion or a fighter of naval rifle units (that is, a former crew member) was required. That is, with education not lower than average. And even in the elite BTVs, 2/3 of the personnel had 3-7 classes.

            Again ftpntsii. This time I’ll attach a test plate.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 25 February 2016 10: 33
              0
              Quote: carbine
              Damn, what composition? See% of its delays in the picture a little higher.

              The usual composition is linear parts. Those in which even the commanders do not know how to disassemble a rifle. And junior commanders after graduation from schools have a level of knowledge that is often lower than that of ordinary personnel — but nevertheless they train this same ordinary personnel. During one of the spring inspections, one of such commanders found an unclean gun with shells left over from the autumn firing.
              29% of rifles produced in 1940 for 4 months brought to rust in the barrel. That's all you need to know about available personnel.
              And such a l / s will get SVT in its hands:
              Quote: carbine
              The gas regulator has 5 positions. To adjust it, a special key and a partial disassembly of the rifle were needed. Rifle failure could occur at any time with no stock adjustment. When adjusting "with a margin", the shutter gradually broke the receiver in reverse, and in the forward movement, the chamber.

              Quote: carbine
              Again ftpntsii. This time I’ll attach a test plate.
              As I understand it, a properly adjusted rifle was tested, which had been properly looked after before?
              It would be interesting to see the test results of serial SVT taken from conventional parts "as is".
              1. karbine
                karbine 25 February 2016 10: 51
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The usual composition is linear parts. Those in which even the commanders do not know how to disassemble a rifle.

                Listen, where did you get so smart from? Indeed, judging by your comment, our recent ancestors were absolute clinical idioms. And the elemental piece of iron, ten parts, was so complex that it is completely incomprehensible how today people can master a computer. After all, it is much more complicated than that primitive piece of iron.
                Do not fantasize. It was simple piece of iron, and normal smart people were. But the design of this piece of iron was not very.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                During one of the spring inspections, one of such commanders found an unclean gun with shells left over from the autumn firing.

                So zatsev everywhere is full. What has the "complexity of technology" to do with it?
                Quote: Alexey RA
                As I understand it, a properly adjusted rifle was tested, which had been properly looked after before?

                Do you think the testers at the test site did not know how to handle weapons? They knew how. And these are the sad results that the "wonderful SVT" produced.
              2. AK64
                AK64 25 February 2016 16: 36
                0
                As I understand it, a properly adjusted rifle was tested, which had been properly looked after before?
                It would be interesting to see the test results of serial SVT taken from conventional parts "as is".


                Plates of this kind are meaningless without dates and other "conditions".
                It is not known which rifle was taken, when and what cartridges. And how it was regulated.

                Garand did 15 years. And he ... wedged. I had to withdraw the entire issue from the army, and do another 3 years. Only after that stopped wedging.

                At the same time, Garand is very sensitive both with the quality of stores and cartridges: anyway, that it is impossible. In SVT, cartridges of such different quality were used ...

                In general, a deep IMHO: without accurate data, who, where and when did these tests take place is a crap
                1. karbine
                  karbine 25 February 2016 19: 14
                  0
                  Quote: AK64
                  Plates of this kind are meaningless without dates and other "conditions".

                  Why do you need them? This is nitpicking, no more. Clearly, since there were comparative tests, then the testers were qualified, and the weapons were serviceable. Otherwise, the whole bodygirl did not make sense.
                  Quote: AK64
                  Garand did 15 years. And he ... wedged. I had to withdraw the entire issue from the army, and do another 3 years. Only after that stopped wedging.

                  6 years. And they eliminated a couple of months, not 3 years.
                  Quote: AK64
                  In SVT, cartridges of such different quality were used ...

                  What should I say. Even the belts were not always of the same quality.
                  Quote: AK64
                  In general, a deep IMHO: without accurate data, who, where and when did these tests take place is a crap

                  In general, we understood that you have nothing to object to, but I really want to.
          3. gross kaput
            gross kaput 25 February 2016 00: 22
            +2
            Quote: Alexey RA
            and the possibility of improper assembly of CBT

            It is possible in more detail - what there can not be assembled correctly?
            Quote: Alexey RA
            As practice has shown, for the normal treatment of SVT was required

            As practice shows, for the normal operation of the SVT, first of all, someone is required who can explain all the nuances and time for this, the marines had both of them, and both had the Siberian divisions near Moscow, etc., but hastily called up in the summer of the 41st reservists, this was not - hence the trouble with the operation of the SVT.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Tolstoevsky
    Tolstoevsky 24 February 2016 21: 13
    +1
    about the aiming range of the PPSh - our "western partner" brazenly slanders. and it was incomparably larger than that of Thompson, who only spat 50 meters
    1. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 21: 34
      -2
      Quote: Tolstoevsky
      eat at Thompson, who only spit 50 meters

      You have a mistake. At 5 meters. No further than a camel.
      YouTube to help you. Take a look at that camel there.
    2. AK64
      AK64 24 February 2016 22: 25
      -1
      about the aiming range of the PPSh - our "western partner" brazenly slanders.


      Y-yes ...
      "Sighting range" are these numbers that are written on the bar? Well, it’s not written on the fence, but in fact there’s just firewood.
      Yes, banal firewood.

      So: Take and Homogenize from the PCA. And make sure that from the PPSh at 50m you can only get into an elephant. And in man only by chance.
      (True, Thompson in this sense is slightly better. Better - due to weight, by the way, and less n / s, but not much.)

      I’ll even tell you, if you want, where you can shoot from the PCA. Want to?
      1. carbine
        carbine 24 February 2016 22: 54
        0
        Quote: AK64
        I’ll even tell you, if you want, where you can shoot from the PCA. Want to?

        Thank you, but I still met in my youth. Somehow no longer pulls.
        1. AK64
          AK64 24 February 2016 23: 40
          0
          Thank you, but I still met in my youth. Somehow no longer pulls.


          / surprised /
          But am I to you?
          You, I believe, you yourself will find if you wish.
          1. carbine
            carbine 24 February 2016 23: 50
            0
            Quote: AK64
            You, I believe, you yourself will find if you wish

            Yes thank you.
  • AK64
    AK64 24 February 2016 21: 15
    -2
    Comrades, stop negative!
    If there is anything to object, object. And minus in my opinion is a kindergarten.
    1. carbine
      carbine 24 February 2016 21: 32
      -2
      Quote: AK64
      And minus in my opinion is a kindergarten.

      No, this is not a kindergarten. This is bad. The usual shallow grass zapadlo. What to do is a system, a policy encouraged by the site administration.
      1. Chtononibrator
        Chtononibrator 24 February 2016 23: 04
        +1
        Quote: carbine
        No, this is not a kindergarten. This is bad.

        It’s just that people rated your delusions about super-megotommigans and more.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 25 February 2016 14: 15
    0
    In the picture is not the PCA, but the Finnish Suomi of 1931
    with a drum magazine for 71 rounds.
    Such submachine guns hit in a fair amount
    in trophies of the Red Army in the Winter War of 1939
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 25 February 2016 20: 41
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      hit in a fair amount
      in the trophies of the Red Army in

      Let's just say - for this, this fair amount must exist in nature, but this just didn’t exist, all dates from 1931 to 1953 riveted a little less than 100 M000, the main issue fell on 1931-1940, before the Soviet-Finnish war the dates had no more than 1944 Suomi in the troops, taking into account the fact that the war ended with a peace treaty without surrender and disarmament of the Finnish army, at the expense of trophy Suomi, there are hundreds at best.