Military Review

Vitko: 11356 ships cannot be sold, they are needed by the Black Sea Fleet

123
Black Sea Fleet Commander Alexander Vitko said that the second three frigates of Project 11356 ("Petrel") should be completed and transferred to the Black Sea the fleet, despite the delay in their construction related to the problem of import substitution. This is reported by the newspaper. Look.




“These ships should be completed for the Black Sea Fleet, of course, we need them. The fact is that we need to update the old fleet of ships, some of them are 40-50 years old, their life cycle has ended, ”Vitko said, explaining why he is against selling ships abroad.

The newspaper reminds that “serial production of Russian analogues of Ukrainian gas-turbine engines for frigates of the 11356 project, according to the plan, will be deployed at the NPO Saturn enterprise in Rybinsk (Yaroslavl Region) by the end of 2017 of the year.”

As previously reported, only for the BSF to 2020 g should build 6 frigates of the project 11356. The head Admiral Grigorovich is preparing for the surrender of the Navy, two more are being built on the Yantar. The construction of the second three was suspended due to the lack of engines, the delivery of which was thwarted by Ukraine.

Not so long ago, the media reported that the second three ships expressed the desire to buy India, which could itself purchase power plants in Ukraine.
Photos used:
forums.airbase.ru
123 comments
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  1. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 19 February 2016 17: 30
    28
    Okay, let's keep it to ourselves, I'm in favor.
    1. Nord2015
      Nord2015 19 February 2016 17: 33
      10
      Will we put the engines at the end of 2017? From the article you need to understand that this is so.
      1. Nik_One
        Nik_One 19 February 2016 17: 40
        67
        Yes, even in 2017, even in 2018. No need to give Ukraine money. If India wants to buy, then let Russian engines wait.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 19 February 2016 17: 46
          50
          Quote: Nik_One
          Yes, even in 2017, even in 2018. No need to give Ukraine money. If India wants to buy, then let Russian engines wait.

          They will soon be unable to produce them. They will soon begin total privatization (in anticipation of the arrival of a large polar fox), steal everything that has not yet been stolen. The tops are drained over the hill. The rest will grow bananas and eat them. Sorry for the harshness, I’m not that I’m not sorry for Ukraine, it just doesn’t fit in my head, what you need to be .... to get it all done. wassat
          1. tol100v
            tol100v 19 February 2016 19: 00
            14
            Quote: Mikado
            They will soon be unable to produce them.

            And very fast! There are no working capital. The main customer (Russia) - no. Compete with Germany and Sweden simply will not give! There will be no production without sales. This is what the European Union was striving for, which it has successfully achieved!
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 19 February 2016 20: 16
              +6
              Quote: Tol100v
              Quote: Mikado
              They will soon be unable to produce them.

              And very fast! There are no working capital. The main customer (Russia) - no. Compete with Germany and Sweden simply will not give! There will be no production without sales. This is what the European Union was striving for, which it has successfully achieved!

              And there will be what Europeans usually do with their colonies. Europe to them - beads, and those will have to pay with land. We exaggerate, but practically so. It’s interesting, but in Ukraine there are many people (from the people, not from the government) left who understand the essence of what is happening?
          2. tilovaykrisa
            tilovaykrisa 19 February 2016 20: 47
            +8
            Our won also managed to USSR to tear with its MEGA defense in the 90s.
            1. Mikado
              Mikado 20 February 2016 19: 41
              +2
              Yes, they did. Yes, first stagnation, then Tagged Bear, then a putsch and all that.
              We still disentangle. And the industry was stolen in an instant. And they cut the Russians, only no one paid attention. There wasn’t enough sausage - now it’s enough. Has anyone become happier?
              Does one of us need the Maidan? I think no.
              Let the industry recover faster, and not from the screen about "import substitution" rattle, plundering half. We have no friends in the world! Only ourselves!
              1. Neputin
                Neputin 24 January 2017 17: 26
                0
                Just don't scare us with the Maidan - they are already frightened. People gave everything - both the best years of their lives and their very lives for changing the socio-economic system (capitalism) to a more just one, then plowed like horses for the good of this country, dilapidated by two wars, and we "secretly" returned everything back. For what? Ask yourself this question. In order for the Millers, Rottenbergs and Sechins to drive armored Merciers, and how can we all "get good"? Use our (and yours, by the way) national wealth and heritage at their own discretion? I did not subscribe to this, and since I have nothing to lose, I am ready to wrestle with these kozlami. And they will not voluntarily give anything away and there is no need to experience any illusions about this. Well, you all want to climb on the tree and not to rip the ass. And it will not be so. It's just not time yet. We are waiting for the onset of a revolutionary situation (according to V.I. Lenin). And it will come. Mark my word ...
              2. Reserve officer
                Reserve officer 14 February 2017 21: 19
                +2
                Quote: Mikado
                We have no friends in the world! Only ourselves!


                And among us, too, friends will not be enough. If you look at our native government and a bunch of "successful effective managers" who have captured everything that is possible and impossible in the country.
                As my father-in-law says, “Such friends are counted, but to the museum. To a test tube with alcohol.”
                1. Mikado
                  Mikado 15 February 2017 11: 24
                  +2
                  The stratification of society in the absence of a clear national idea and ensuring legislative equalization of rights ("who has money and connections is right") will not lead to an upsurge of patriotism. Okay, even though we are in VO conditionally “together”, albeit different. My friends, I wrote this comment a year ago in a bad mood! drinks but thanks for your answers!
        2. Foresterer
          Foresterer 19 February 2016 17: 52
          19
          Reasonable. We recognize that at this stage Ukraine is an enemy, and money for the engines that were supposed to be on these ships can and should get into this country only directly from Russia. In exchange for engines. Even for the one possibility that these engines will then be delivered to these ships and Ukraine will receive money for the disrupted order, and in fact sabotage, it is necessary to veto such a sale. Otherwise, this case and its defendants are the case of the FSB of Russia.
        3. sgazeev
          sgazeev 19 February 2016 18: 39
          +8
          Quote: Nik_One
          Yes, even in 2017, even in 2018. No need to give Ukraine money. If India wants to buy, then let Russian engines wait.

          The Hindus are smart-ass, learned from snobs. They will set the conditions for construction in India with the transfer of documentation. They are sickened with the alteration of the aircraft carrier, they almost drowned the boat. Do not crap, let them buy from the frogs, they bought rafals and they will buy it. Friends are bad.
          1. tilovaykrisa
            tilovaykrisa 19 February 2016 20: 49
            0
            Rafali they still come sideways, they take off grief then grab it, and if ours do not put them to them too, then in general the coffins will be docked forever.
        4. serezhasoldatow
          serezhasoldatow 19 February 2016 18: 47
          +1
          I agree with you. They have it like here. MUSIC OF WAR 'We are simple guys!' TV DNR 24.10.2014/XNUMX/XNUMX
        5. veksha50
          veksha50 19 February 2016 18: 51
          0
          Quote: Nik_One
          Yes, even in 2017, even in 2018. No need to give Ukraine money. If India wants to buy, then let Russian engines wait.



          The question is, of course, interesting ...

          However - will India wait so much (in FIG it needs it)?
          And the ships at this time will slowly rust ... The money invested in them will lie, stand dead weight ...

          Some kind of vicious circle turns out ...

          And to sell for a penny - also not in the living ...
          1. samoletil18
            samoletil18 19 February 2016 22: 13
            0
            And here it’s not yet in the vein: they moved, if the buildings are sold to India, where to put it?
        6. tilovaykrisa
          tilovaykrisa 19 February 2016 20: 46
          +1
          It would be easier for us through Indians from Kaklov to buy engines in the dark. We cooperate with them. The norm is the same. For example, I think they didn’t refuse us, but there is one BUT! the reliability of their engines after the scandal with their armored personnel carriers and strongholds due to the lack of the word quality is doubtful.
          1. kig
            kig 20 February 2016 02: 25
            +2
            To buy through the Indians is a good idea, but hardly viable. The purchase of military equipment is checked and double-checked at many levels, any leakage of information will lead to a huge scandal. India will not do that.
            1. kuz363
              kuz363 20 February 2016 07: 21
              0
              I agree completely. No one is blindly supplying their products. Surely, the contract provides for field supervision of engine installation with sea trials
          2. yehat
            yehat April 10 2017 15: 20
            0
            do not bullshit the engines are different and the stronghold engine has long been known.
            that he would have problems was clear in advance.
      2. 79807420129
        79807420129 19 February 2016 17: 45
        46
        Quote: Nord2015
        Will we put the engines at the end of 2017?

        They should, now they are building a test bench, and at an accelerated pace, bringing equipment to the new foundry building, in the old one they are already mastering the casting on marine-themed lost-wax models, now they are casting in "iron". hi
        1. Nord2015
          Nord2015 19 February 2016 17: 52
          +4
          Very happy. Thank.
        2. Inok10
          Inok10 19 February 2016 17: 55
          22
          Quote: 79807420129
          They should, now they are building a test bench, and at an accelerated pace, bringing equipment to the new foundry building, in the old one they are already mastering the casting on marine-themed lost-wax models, now they are casting in "iron".

          ... just like that ... having some insider information from Yantar I can say ... the installation will be at the end of this, early 17th, but quietly and without unnecessary dust, Saturn works in three sweats ... hi
          1. 79807420129
            79807420129 19 February 2016 18: 04
            32
            Quote: Inok10
            just like that ... having some insight from "Yantar" I can say ... the installation will be at the end of this, early 17th, but quietly and without unnecessary dust, Saturn works in three sweats ...

            So I work on "Saturn" in the old foundry building, today, by the way, I removed the ceramic rods from the blades to the stage of the marine engine. hi
            1. Inok10
              Inok10 19 February 2016 18: 19
              +8
              Quote: 79807420129
              So I work on "Saturn" in the old foundry building, today, by the way, I removed the ceramic rods from the blades to the stage of the marine engine.

              ... God help hi ... infa slipped that the Saturn gas turbines will be 20% more powerful, the resource is somewhere around 2000 hours and more economical ... hi
            2. Alex_59
              Alex_59 19 February 2016 18: 35
              +2
              Quote: 79807420129
              So I work on "Saturn" in the old foundry building, today, by the way, I removed the ceramic rods from the blades to the stage of the marine engine

              Greetings to you from Perm from Perm Motors smile What will the marine engine be based on? Our D-30KP or Lyulkovsky Al-31?
              1. 79807420129
                79807420129 19 February 2016 18: 59
                10
                Quote: Alex_59
                Greetings to you from Perm from Perm Motors. Based on what will the marine engine be? Our D-30KP or Lyulkovsky Al-31?

                Greetings to a colleague from Rybinsk, well, I’m generally a simple caster, but I think that based on AL, I judge by the accompanying marking, if you want I can learn more at work tomorrow, which of course can be written in PM. hi drinks
                Quote: Stirbjorn
                not really - the engines will primarily do the project 22350 frigates. As for 11356, there was no official information

                Look at Michael above, although I work on Saturn, they don’t tell us what project, but the Gas and Sea topics are coming first. hi
                1. Alex_59
                  Alex_59 20 February 2016 07: 03
                  +1
                  Quote: 79807420129
                  Greetings to a colleague from Rybinsk, well, I’m generally a simple caster, but I think that based on AL, I judge by the accompanying marking, if you want I can learn more at work tomorrow, which of course can be written in PM.

                  Well, I’m not working at PMZ, but I’m closely connected. Father and father-in-law work. But still, almost colleagues :-)
                  I still can’t understand why they didn’t do a marine engine before. Well, let's say you are loaded there in Rybinsk with orders for Su-30, ours in Perm are loaded with orders for IL-76 / 96. But here is the Samara Plant - after all, it has been doing nothing for a long time except for repair. Why haven’t they done anything in 2000 yet? Outrage.
                  1. 79807420129
                    79807420129 20 February 2016 17: 14
                    +8
                    Quote: Alex_59
                    I still can’t understand why they didn’t do a marine engine before.

                    Greetings to my Colleague! Actually, long ago, back in 2013, they began to build a stand and a new building for heat-resistant casting, they gave the building, and funding was no longer allocated to the stand, we thought that it’s better to buy marine engines than we produce, at the end of 2014 you can see the roasted rooster Rogozin several times and the stand began to grow before our eyes, the managing director was stuck in the ass and he flew from the factory with a turbine, at this moment the stand is ready somewhere around 75 percent, until the fall we hope it will be 100.
                    Quote: Alex_59
                    But here is the Samara Plant - after all, it has been doing nothing for a long time except for repair. Why didn’t they do anything back in the 2000s?
                    By the way, Alexey I don’t know about Samara, but the same SAM-146 is not yet profitable for Saturn, until we make repairs, but in the 2000s SAM-146 was worn like a written shell, by the way the basis of the AL-31 engine hi drinks
            3. sgazeev
              sgazeev 19 February 2016 18: 45
              +2
              Quote: 79807420129
              Quote: Inok10
              just like that ... having some insight from "Yantar" I can say ... the installation will be at the end of this, early 17th, but quietly and without unnecessary dust, Saturn works in three sweats ...

              So I work on "Saturn" in the old foundry building, today, by the way, I removed the ceramic rods from the blades to the stage of the marine engine. hi

              The territory is not cut? I still remember the roar in the whole district when testing engines, the end of the 50s. I mean the Moscow plant on Galushkina. hi
              1. 79807420129
                79807420129 19 February 2016 19: 06
                +8
                Quote: sgazeev
                The territory is not cut? I still remember the roar in the whole district when testing engines, the end of the 50s. I mean the Moscow plant on Galushkina.

                Alexander, the territory was then cut a little, got rid of a non-profile, the 7th test roars as before. But Saturn stands on Lenin Avenue, 163.
        3. Stirbjorn
          Stirbjorn 19 February 2016 18: 39
          +3
          Quote: 79807420129
          They should, now they are building a test bench, and at an accelerated pace, bringing equipment to the new foundry building, in the old one they are already mastering the casting on marine-themed lost-wax models, now they are casting in "iron". hi

          not really - the engines will primarily do the project 22350 frigates. As for 11356, there was no official information
      3. Yeraz
        Yeraz 19 February 2016 18: 16
        +2
        Quote: Nord2015
        Will we put the engines at the end of 2017?

        Engines will start mass production at the end of the 17th.
      4. starshina78
        starshina78 19 February 2016 19: 02
        +3
        It is necessary to build buildings, and then put turbines on them. Well, why will we again arm India, while we ourselves will walk on old vessels. Since we decided to update the Fleet, so we need to update. If we cannot build modern projects, such as Admiral Gorshkov, quickly, then at least these 11356 are modernized. After all, the patrol ships of the project 1135 (taken as the basis for the 11356 project) have proven themselves very well. I remember how the first ICR project 1135 "Razumny" came to us in Kamchatka in 1976. Everyone was looking at him! Handsome! Then the famous "Watchman" came (on it the captain - lieutenant Sablin raised a riot against the Soviet regime), and then I don't remember "Angry" or something.
        1. lelikas
          lelikas 19 February 2016 21: 25
          0
          Quote: starshina78
          It is necessary to build buildings, and then put turbines on them.

          And then, it turns out that the new turbines do not fit in the old housings ...
          It’s better to do everything in the complex.
        2. alexmach
          alexmach 19 February 2016 21: 27
          +1
          It is necessary to build buildings, and then put turbines on them

          The hulls are ready ... and removed from the slipways because there are no turbines for them.

          If we cannot build modern projects, such as "Admiral Gorshkov", quickly, then at least these 11356 modernized


          You need 2 turbines for modern ones, 4 for these, so think about what to build ... the truth is it’s still not clear that with modern diesel engines and polymer redoubts they’re not ready to say, but while we wait for the turbines, they can bring the electronics to mind.
    2. Ami du peuple
      Ami du peuple 19 February 2016 17: 36
      +6
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Okay, let's leave it to ourselves, I'm in favor.

      You are in favor, but someone in the Government of the Russian Federation or in Rosoboronexport does not agree with your opinion - they want to sell frigates to India and that's it. Which point of view do you think will win?
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 19 February 2016 17: 45
        +6
        Quote: Ami du peuple
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        Okay, let's leave it to ourselves, I'm in favor.

        You are in favor, but someone in the Government of the Russian Federation or in Rosoboronexport does not agree with your opinion - they want to sell frigates to India and that's it. Which point of view do you think will win?

        Naturally mine and honest people.
      3. TVM - 75
        TVM - 75 19 February 2016 18: 51
        +4
        Rosoboronexport works for Russia only when it is closely watched. In all other cases, they brazenly and stupidly pull the blanket over themselves. For them, kickbacks, currency, business trips are more important. Cherish yourself loved ones. By the way, like most federal offices. And not only federal ones.
        1. msm
          msm 20 February 2016 12: 48
          0
          And, for many, Stalin and Beria are enemies!
    3. Denis Obukhov
      Denis Obukhov 19 February 2016 19: 22
      +1
      The whole point of these ships was that their production was debugged and they could quickly fill the composition of the ship. But in the end, the acceptance of the lead ship has not yet taken place. Meanwhile, the production of more advanced frigates 22350 has already entered the regime. Does it make sense to build a less perfect 11356 even subject to problems with the assembly of their power plants?
      1. Igor V
        Igor V 19 February 2016 20: 23
        0
        The fact of the matter is that the slipways are already occupied.
      2. Igor V
        Igor V 19 February 2016 20: 23
        0
        The fact of the matter is that the slipways are already occupied.
    4. Denis Obukhov
      Denis Obukhov 19 February 2016 19: 23
      +2
      If the Commander publicly opposes the sale of ships, then some creatures, most likely in the government, are already going to sell them. And this statement is an attempt to disrupt the plans of the enemies of Russia to prevent the strengthening of the Black Sea Fleet.
    5. Conscience
      Conscience 20 February 2016 01: 05
      0
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      Okay, let's keep it to ourselves, I'm in favor.

      And who are you ?
  2. Inok10
    Inok10 19 February 2016 17: 31
    +4
    Not so long ago, the media reported that the second three ships expressed the desire to buy India, which could itself purchase power plants in Ukraine.
    .. not really ... Indians want to build in their shipyards under our tech. supervision ... hi
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 19 February 2016 17: 48
      +6
      She can sell them copies of the drawings, and send a dozen effective managers there, let them oversee, and the Indians pay their salaries.
  3. Fin
    Fin 19 February 2016 17: 33
    -1
    Maybe a tactical move? After delivery, the engines will refuse to purchase.
  4. Primus pilus
    Primus pilus 19 February 2016 17: 34
    +4
    Yes, who argues the ships are needed, the Black Sea Fleet is currently very weak.
    1. 4ekist
      4ekist 19 February 2016 18: 19
      +4
      There are not enough new ships in all fleets. Even with the Turks and with South Korea, we still cannot compete.
  5. Altona
    Altona 19 February 2016 17: 36
    +3
    As for updating the external western fleets, I absolutely agree. The fleet of ships is worn out physically and morally outdated, analog instruments, pencil cards and all that. The Black Sea and Baltic Fleets are the face of Russia.
    1. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 19 February 2016 18: 41
      +5
      Yes hello, exactly the opposite - the Pacific and the North, our main fleets - both in composition and in tasks
  6. APASUS
    APASUS 19 February 2016 17: 39
    0
    In this set of information, the devil will break his leg. First, Ukrainian, then MTU, then Chinese copies, then Kolomensky diesel engines and now again Ukrainian diesel engines, only for India.
    Damn, there are alterations for Kolomenskiye diesel engines for half a year, but it was easier to buy the diesel engine from MTU through a third country. It would be more expensive, but would not have caused any losses with a simple shipyard, the additional costs for design and modification would have disappeared and of course the time frame .. ............
    1. aba
      aba 19 February 2016 17: 50
      +4
      it was impossible to outbid diesel from MTU through a third country.

      If the USSR bought the Hewlett-Packard 80 series AWP in the 9000s (a digitizer, a plotter and a bunch of peripherals, like a graphic color display), then it would be no problem to buy it.
      1. APASUS
        APASUS 19 February 2016 21: 59
        +1
        Quote: aba
        it was impossible to outbid diesel from MTU through a third country.

        If the USSR bought the Hewlett-Packard 80 series AWP in the 9000s (a digitizer, a plotter and a bunch of peripherals, like a graphic color display), then it would be no problem to buy it.

        This bothers me. At one time, we dragged a computer center with a geophysical radar that allows you to design buildings on difficult soils in mountainous terrain. This crap cost like a good Mercedes, but they cannot outbid the engine at MTU.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 19 February 2016 17: 58
      +7
      Quote: APASUS
      First, Ukrainian, then MTU, then Chinese copies, then Kolomna diesel engines and now again Ukrainian diesel engines, only for India.

      What does a diesel engine have to do with it? 11356 are gas turbines. Do not confuse FR with corvettes and RTOs.
      The situation with ship power plants is as follows:
      - Frigates were left without Ukrainian gas turbine engines - and domestic ones will be in their place in 2018;
      - Corvettes were left without German diesels - and now the Navy will press Kolomna so that they finally bring to mind the miracle that stood on the founders of the series - project 22380 (and based on the operating experience of which a decision was made "better Germans")
      1. APASUS
        APASUS 19 February 2016 22: 00
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The situation with ship power plants is as follows:

        Well, at least someone in the know of this vinaigrette
  7. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 19 February 2016 17: 40
    -1
    Not an expert on the topic. There is probably a mistake in the concept, perhaps while it was already being built morally (modernization is impossible). Shoigu knows why such a decision was made, and I BELIEVE him. We will sell ....
    1. Nik_One
      Nik_One 19 February 2016 17: 43
      +1
      Not "probably" and not "possible". Nothing is outdated. The question is that there are ships, but there are no engines that are produced in Ukraine.
      1. Ze Kot
        Ze Kot 19 February 2016 18: 23
        +1
        Quote: Nik_One
        Not "probably" and not "possible". Nothing is outdated. The question is that there are ships, but there are no engines that are produced in Ukraine.



        And industrial espionage is no longer in vogue? wink
        1. Nik_One
          Nik_One 19 February 2016 18: 37
          +5
          Yes, in this situation, espionage is not necessary ... The question is not in know-how, but in the organization of production in Russia.
  8. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 19 February 2016 17: 41
    +5
    Interestingly, but Vitko is generally aware that until 2018 the second triple of FR pr. 11356 will not be completed in any way? And what if the sale of the second three, instead of them, the third is laid?

    The whole idea with the sale of them to India was that we sell the second three 2018, standing until useless load at the factory wall until 11356, and instead we order the third three from the factory. Which will be built in exactly the readiness of the gas turbine engine.
    As a result, the Black Sea Fleet still receives ships on time, but we also have profit from the sale of the second three.
    1. avt
      avt 19 February 2016 18: 12
      +1
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Interestingly, but Vitko is generally aware that until 2018 the second triple of FR pr. 11356 will not be completed in any way?

      In fact, a deuce, the third did not seem to be laid.
      Quote: Alexey RA
      . Instead, we order the third three to the plant. Which will be built in exactly the readiness of the gas turbine engine.
      As a result, the Black Sea Fleet still receives ships on time, but we also have profit from the sale of the second three.

      laughing "Oh, these fairy tales, oh, these storytellers." Well, let's be serious - in fact TWO 11356 and THREE 22350 of which one at the wall toils with a burnt engine, that is, in fact, you need 5 remote control units for ships that are less and less under construction in half And you dream of three more that are not even contracted request , and even plus one of the ,, second series "11356 total four. Here's an article just now about ,, Thundering", which
      The contract for the construction of the lead ship No. 253/05/2 / K / 0546-06 was signed by the Ministry of Defense of Russia on March 27.03.2006, 20385 (for the supply of the corvette pr.1005, head No. 1005). The lead ship of the project No.01.02.2012 "Gremyashchiy" was laid down at the Severnaya Verf shipyard (Saint Petersburg) on ​​2014/XNUMX/XNUMX, launching is planned in XNUMX.
      , and the party happily reported
      “In total, four corvettes are under construction at Severnaya Verf: two (Thundering and Provorny) - according to project 20385 and two (Zealous and Strict) - according to improved project 20380. At Provorny, the formation will be completed in the coming months. housing. Also this year it is planned to complete the formation of the hulls of two corvettes of the project 20380, their delivery to the Navy is planned in 2018 ",
      So, God forbid, they will finish the turbines for the buildings under construction by the year of commercials 2020 (I'm an optimistic romantic wassat ) .And to glitch with admiral glitches about series of 20 ships ..... leave it to admirals. In fact, at best there will be five 11356 and further 22350. Well, if there is still no feint with the NEW frigate project, as in 22380 and six 22160, they will become.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 19 February 2016 18: 35
        +5
        Quote: avt
        "Oh, these fairy tales, oh, these storytellers." Well, let's be serious - in fact TWO 11356 and THREE 22350 of which one at the wall toils with a burnt engine, that is, in fact, you need 5 remote control units for ships that are less and less under construction in half And you dream of three more that are not even contracted

        No about three morebut about three to replace two to be sold on condition "GEM is not included in the supply, supplied by the Buyer".
        And there will be gas turbine engines for Indian FRs - the same Zorya-Mashproekt will gladly sell our wrung-out order to the Indians.
        Quote: avt
        So, God forbid, they will finish the turbines for the buildings under construction by the year 2020 commercial

        What I’m talking about. Why rot ships without turbines at the wall, if you can sell them to those who have these turbines? And then order the factory to replace the sold new buildings, which will be completed by the time the gas turbine engines are in operation?
        At the same time, the total number of unfinished and the GTE required for it for the Navy will not increase - just part of the unfinished will push the Indians and replace it with a new unfinished. smile
        1. gispanec
          gispanec 19 February 2016 18: 44
          +1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          What I’m talking about. Why rot ships without turbines at the wall, if you can sell them to those who have these turbines? And then order the factory to replace the sold new buildings, which will be completed by the time the gas turbine engines are in operation?

          Yes, it is useless to prove anything to the deaf ... there, even in the eyes, is all dew!
        2. avt
          avt 19 February 2016 19: 37
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          What I’m talking about. Why rot ships without turbines at the wall, if you can sell them to those who have these turbines? And then order the factory to replace the sold new buildings, which will be completed by the time the gas turbine engines are in operation?

          laughing What for ! Well, why such a city? After all, 11356 was conceived as a fire option to replenish the crew of a series 22350. Now what? well, we’ll sell three buildings under construction and ... stay with Vasya naked -22350s, we didn’t lay new ones, but if we lay them right now, we’ll get them at the pace of our construction in 20 ... he knows what year. And at least there is a chance in getting turbines
          Quote: avt
          So, God forbid, they will finish the turbines for the buildings under construction by the year 2020 commercial (I'm an optimistic romantic)

          And really there will be ships, not a chicken in a nest and a testicle in ... hernies.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 20 February 2016 10: 21
            0
            Quote: avt
            After all, 11356 was conceived as a fire option to replenish the crew of a series 22350. Now what? well, we’ll sell three hulls under construction and ... stay with Vasya naked -22350s we didn’t lay new ones, but if we lay them right now, we’ll get them in the pace of our construction in 20 ... he knows what year

            Just in time for the new turbines. smile
            There are two options:
            - if in the next six months it turns out that the turbines will be ready, as promised, in 2018-2019, then you can sell the second three 11356 and build a third. "Yantar" will just have time;
            - if in the next six months it turns out that everything is lost, and the turbines will be ready after 2020, then you can sell the second three 11356 and mortgage 22350. Yantar will just have time.
            In any case, until 2018-2019 "second three" 11356 for our fleet will not be completed.
            Quote: avt
            And at least there is a chance in getting turbines

            Offer walk to Nikolaev? wink
    2. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 19 February 2016 18: 54
      +1
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Interestingly, but Vitko is generally aware that until 2018 the second triple of FR pr. 11356 will not be completed in any way? And what if the sale of the second three, instead of them, the third is laid?

      The whole idea with the sale of them to India was that we sell the second three 2018, standing until useless load at the factory wall until 11356, and instead we order the third three from the factory. Which will be built in exactly the readiness of the gas turbine engine.
      As a result, the Black Sea Fleet still receives ships on time, but we also have profit from the sale of the second three.
      There was the point of the sale in that when the Indians completed the second three, further, the much more advanced 22350 would be ordered, already at Yantar, because by that time they would have to work it out completely - and the engines, especially under 11356, would not have to be made. 22350 ship of the future, that’s his priority hi
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 19 February 2016 19: 01
        +1
        Quote: Stirbjorn
        There was the point of the sale in that when the Indians completed the second three, further, the much more advanced 22350 would be ordered, already at Yantar, because by that time they would have to work it out completely - and the engines, especially under 11356, would not have to be made. 22350 ship of the future, that’s his priority

        Well, this is the maximum option.
        I have so far settled on a minimum plan: to sell finished turbine-free buildings and to order new ones with the proceeds. The state receives money, the plant frees the bucket, receives payment for the work performed - and a new order for a streamlined series.
        If domestic turbines are even more delayed - the cycle can be repeated. laughing
    3. Lekov L
      Lekov L 19 February 2016 20: 11
      0
      Colleagues, remember the late AB Berezovsky.
      Re-export cars.
      Hindus buy 5-6 cases, install propulsion systems on them.
      Then a couple from the party are returned "for revision" to the Russian Federation.
      Then another 2-3 is ordered, and there half will be returned for revision ..
      And if the engines are bad, then ...
      Problems Ukrainians.
      It would be beautiful!
      Dream winked
  9. alfa19638
    alfa19638 19 February 2016 17: 43
    +1
    Unfortunately, we still have enough gentlemen for whom the profit in their pockets is higher than the needs of the Motherland. But, thank God, a worthy person holds the post of Minister of Defense!
    1. Primus pilus
      Primus pilus 19 February 2016 17: 44
      -1
      It is immensely unfortunate that Zorya-Mashproekt remained in Ukraine; it will die without our orders.
      1. Nord2015
        Nord2015 19 February 2016 17: 50
        +6
        Quote: Primus Pilus
        It is immensely sorry that Zorya-Mashproekt remained in Ukraine, it will die without our orders

        Let them have a headache about it. I prefer the development of Russian industry.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 19 February 2016 18: 01
      +4
      Quote: alfa19638
      Unfortunately, we still have enough gentlemen for whom the profit in our pocket is higher than the needs of the Motherland

      In your opinion, is it better to leave the second three to rust for 2 years near the wall at the factory - instead of selling them to the Indians and building the third three in the same 2 years?

      Understand - before 2018 these ships for our Navy will not be completed in any way. That we sell them to India, that we do not sell, they will not be in the fleet before this deadline.
      1. gispanec
        gispanec 19 February 2016 18: 45
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Understand - before 2018 these ships for our Navy will not be completed in any way.

        I don’t agree here ... before the 20th, we won’t be able to accept them as part of the Russian Navy .... but by 23-25 ​​... ((...
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 19 February 2016 19: 02
          0
          Quote: gispanec
          I don’t agree here ... before the 20th, we won’t be able to accept them as part of the Russian Navy .... but by 23-25 ​​... ((...

          X his Z. About the GTE, too, they used to say "the first not earlier than 2019" - and now they promise in 2017. smile
  10. thinker
    thinker 19 February 2016 17: 46
    0
    If Saturn and Zvezda meet the deadlines, then their turbines will be in 2017.
    This means that in 2018 the fleet will receive Admiral Butakov and Admiral Istomin, and in 2019 - Admiral Kornilov.

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/72646/
  11. Malachite
    Malachite 19 February 2016 17: 46
    0
    It is difficult for Russia now ... (the military budget is cut by 7%) mainly for the purchase of weapons .. They do not touch the Strategic Missile Forces, allowances for the military, the operation in Syria and something else .. Otherwise, the "belts" will have to be tightened!
  12. Great-grandfather of Zeus
    Great-grandfather of Zeus 19 February 2016 17: 46
    -4
    Is it weak to buy engines through India? Type Indians take for themselves, and the real recipient is Russia.
    1. rash12
      rash12 19 February 2016 18: 03
      +2
      and build their dviguny not weak.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 19 February 2016 18: 06
      +2
      Quote: Great-grandfather of Zeus
      Is it weak to buy engines through India? Type Indians take for themselves, and the real recipient is Russia.

      Will not work. In this case, the Indians can fly under heavy fines or even lose their gas turbine engine production altogether - due to a break in relations with the parent producer.

      EMNIP, all over the world, only three companies had a full cycle of GTE production - GE, Rolls-Royce and Turborus (Saturn + Zvezda + Zorya). All the rest, one way or another, were tied to someone from this trio.
  13. Alexander 3
    Alexander 3 19 February 2016 17: 47
    +3
    My opinion is to sell India in this form and the proceeds for the construction of engines and new ships of this series. All the same, after all, there are no turbines.
  14. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b 19 February 2016 17: 55
    +1
    During the threatened period, the sale of weapons, any !!! There are many supporters of this vile procedure in VO, All money and money. Do not sell, we will sell others. And how are we better than Americans if we are ready to sell our mother for money and mother? And then what is our Truth, for which life is not pitiful? Is it really in the money?
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 19 February 2016 18: 08
      +1
      Quote: Evgeniy667b
      During the threatened period, the sale of weapons, any !!!

      This is not weapons. The second three 11356 are unfinished boxes, which until 2018 will not be completed in any way. And they will only suck money from the budget for their support, and occupy the area of ​​the plant.
      1. gispanec
        gispanec 19 February 2016 18: 48
        +2
        Quote: Alexey RA
        This is not weapons. The second three 11356 are unfinished boxes, which until 2018 will not be completed in any way. And they will only suck money from the budget for their support, and occupy the area of ​​the plant.

        it’s useless to prove to zombie idiots !! ... they don’t understand the essence ... only in order and for one or two, everything is ready ((
  15. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 19 February 2016 18: 19
    +1
    And such an option (you can dream repeat ) - India buys turbines in Ukraine for itself, then resells them to us (well, of course, not impudent). Well, we are making some kind of concession in the contracts for arming or servicing our equipment with them. Plus - not an awful delay with the commissioning of the second trinity of frigates but not the processing of the project for another propulsion system.
    Well, it’s like, like as one of the possible options winked repeat
    And Ukrainians with their money, and we are good, and the Indians earn bonuses bully
    1. avt
      avt 19 February 2016 18: 32
      +1
      Quote: Rurikovich
      And such an option (you can dream about it) - India buys turbines in Ukraine for itself, then resells them to us (well, of course, without impudence).

      No. Well, they will actually pull out ONE ready-made turbine for the fourth, the rest still have to be done from scratch, and it's easier on Saturn. So whatever one may say - all one thing is for 11356, that for 22350, well, ready-made and under construction buildings need FIVE remote control , or rather, one to repair and four to make from scratch, and they will be made in Russia, and I repeat
      Quote: avt
      So, God forbid, they will finish the turbines for the hulls under construction by the year 2020 (I'm an optimistic romantic). And to blame the Admiral’s glitches about the series of 20 ships ..... leave it to the admirals. In fact, at best there will be five 11356 and further 22350. Well, if some other feint has not been thrown out with the NEW frigate project, as in 22380 and the sixth 22160, it will become from them.
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 19 February 2016 18: 38
        +1
        And so well dreamed ... winked wink Well, everything, Indians, fly with bonuses ...
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 19 February 2016 18: 38
        0
        Quote: avt
        So whatever one may say, all is the same for 11356, for 22350, well, ready-made and under-construction buildings, FIVE turbine engines are needed, or rather, one is repaired and four are made from scratch, and they will be made in Russia, well, I’ll repeat

        That's it. So why should rot 11356 at the wall, if you can sell them to where the TBG is? And with the proceeds to order the plant new 11356 for domestic turbines - there will be more than enough time until they are ready to build new buildings.
        1. 31rus
          31rus 19 February 2016 18: 51
          0
          Dear, and by this time the ships will be needed at all, am I talking about this project?
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 19 February 2016 19: 09
            0
            Quote: 31rus
            Dear, and by this time the ships will be needed at all, am I talking about this project?

            So this is even better - as already suggested above, in the case of the sale of already built "budgetary" 11356, it will be possible to organize the construction of normal FR of pr. 22350 on Yantar.

            It's no secret that 11356 appeared only because they were promised to be built quickly and with the guarantee that they will work as it should. So they decided to get a "tit in hand", continuing the construction of "oldies" - slightly modernized "Indians", for whom there was already a well-functioning production, and a full chain of subcontractors. For with 22350 then there was no complete clarity.
        2. Evgeniy667b
          Evgeniy667b 20 February 2016 03: 57
          0
          But Turkey and NATO will wait until we get ready here and scroll through our business projects ??? Admiral Vitko argues precisely in this context.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 20 February 2016 10: 30
            0
            Quote: Evgeniy667b
            But Turkey and NATO will wait until we get ready here and scroll through our business projects ??? Admiral Vitko argues precisely in this context.

            If you know how to use ships in combat without the main power plant - share. The only option is to flood the enemy's naval base in the channel ... but for this the Black Sea Fleet already has a regular channel blocker - Ochakov. smile

            The admiral, apparently, is simply not aware that the Navy will not see these ships in any way until 2018-2019.
        3. The comment was deleted.
    2. AlexTires
      AlexTires 19 February 2016 19: 06
      0
      Quote: Rurikovich
      And such an option (you can dream about it) - India buys turbines in Ukraine, such as for itself, then resells them to us (well, of course, without impudence). Well, we are making some kind of concession in the contracts for arming or servicing our equipment with them.

      They can’t, because the contract usually says WITHOUT RESALE RIGHT TO A THIRD COUNTRY
      1. Rurikovich
        Rurikovich 19 February 2016 21: 03
        0
        Quote: AlexTires
        They can’t, because the contract usually says WITHOUT RESALE RIGHT TO A THIRD COUNTRY

        Yah lol ... This is possible with normal suppliers. In Ukraine, chernozem will soon be sold in railroad cars, and what, do you think that they will take care of the subsequent fate of what is being sold only because it is possible to earn any stupid loot? wink
        Although there is one loophole - if you only follow the principles of "if I don't eat, then I'll bite." "Out of spite ... I'll frostbite my ears" and so on from this song. Although I'm 99,9% sure that the rustle of bills has a more magical effect than the various troubles in contracts yes
      2. msm
        msm 20 February 2016 13: 09
        0
        WITHOUT RESALE RIGHT TO THIRD COUNTRIES
        There are world speculators. In the USSR, despite the strictest ban from the United States and the embargo on computer technology, three supercomputers were purchased. This is true - he himself participated in the transaction. Everything is possible - just want it!
  16. Sultan Babai
    Sultan Babai 19 February 2016 18: 29
    +1
    These ships are the only hope so far for the renewal of the fleet (I pay taxes) and for the completion of these crabs ... A person who stops to the goal for every problem is called a rag, slobber or nurse, and if the whole State does so. ..
  17. 31rus
    31rus 19 February 2016 18: 32
    +1
    Dear, what can it be when, the question of the country's defense is better to put in place, to replace the products being sold, there isn’t one, we need ships, according to statements, we need them like air, so what the hell are you bidding for, buy Chinese mtu if they themselves have no brains and desire
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 19 February 2016 18: 41
      0
      Quote: 31rus
      , so what the hell are you bidding, buy Chinese mtu, if they themselves have no brains and desires

      What are MTUs? Gas turbine frigates!
      There are only 3 manufacturers of gas turbine engines in the world, moreover, this trinity carefully monitors its own products and the products of those who manufacture under their license.
      1. 31rus
        31rus 19 February 2016 18: 55
        +1
        Yes, GTA was correctly mistaken, confused with another project, I apologize, but the project is the same horseradish
  18. AlexTires
    AlexTires 19 February 2016 18: 57
    0
    The whole point of these ships was that their production was debugged and they could quickly fill the composition of the ship. But in the end, the acceptance of the lead ship has not yet taken place. Meanwhile, the production of more advanced 22350 frigates has already entered the regime. Does it make sense to build less advanced 11356, even if there are problems with picking their GEM?
  19. Don36
    Don36 19 February 2016 19: 05
    +1
    I don’t like Vitko, but here I agree with him, frigates need to be completed for the Russian fleet.
  20. Sultan Babai
    Sultan Babai 19 February 2016 19: 05
    +2
    Regarding frigates, these ships can be upgraded (I sent the modernization project to the Northern Design Bureau) if there is a patent for an invention that will allow us to place another 8 caliber missiles or 12 calm-1 missiles on the ship until I receive a response from the Design Bureau, but I received a letter from VRIO himself, the commander of the Navy, V. Korolev, with gratitude and with a proposal to send materials also to Zelenodolsk Design Bureau (my patent is 2539 ... 2013 priority).
  21. bochman
    bochman 19 February 2016 19: 31
    0
    This project is already about 20. It’s not even possible to put it on the photo next to new projects, even a clean 1135 looks cooler! We prepared for the Indians and give it back (for the money of course). The warships of the Navy have always been beautiful in their own right, and that’s so ... And in the absence of fish for the KChF (they probably think so), and this will come down the lake ((((!
    Please do not swear! This is my opinion.
    1. Tu-214R
      Tu-214R 19 February 2016 19: 52
      0
      So they are not being built for the Indians, but for the Black Sea Fleet.
  22. Ramzes33
    Ramzes33 19 February 2016 19: 39
    0
    Critical ships. Russia has two allies ...
  23. Sevastopol
    Sevastopol 19 February 2016 20: 10
    +2
    all right. the Turks have superiority, albeit not in the quality of weapons (nuclear weapons do not take into account initially, only ship missiles), but in the end in terms of numbers and types of ships. frigates are quite toothy, and there are a lot of them in number, in comparison with the clearly inferior Black Sea Fleet.
    the composition must be increased by 2 times at least due to the modern ships.
    and who are the Turks, finally all of Russia understood. they are with a smile and a knife behind their backs until they turn their backs.
    we in Crimea always knew about this. after all, Crimean Tatar extremists openly declared that they consider Crimea to be Turkish and themselves Turks.
  24. Sevastopol
    Sevastopol 19 February 2016 20: 25
    +2
    and I was always amazed at the fashion of non-Turkish resorts. 13 times they fought only officially with them. and now again they began to bull again. pay enemies who would gladly destroy you and your country, they would have the power, how can you do it? saving 100 bucks sponsoring an anti-Russian state, which only temporarily hides itself like a partnership.
    I talked with many Turks.
    they always hated Russia. just like the Kurds, maybe even more. for some time it was hiding in the interests of private business - no more.
    and now it has surfaced again. they do not forget these wars and never forget, it is 100%. for some reason, people in our country completely forgot.
  25. evge-malyshev
    evge-malyshev 19 February 2016 20: 27
    +1
    Comments are all very interesting. But I more or less understand the option when the contract for the sale of ships provides for the supply of engines by the buyer. Then really
    the variant may turn out: "... and the wolves are fed and the sheep are safe." Those. the second three ships are sold to India with Zaporozhye engines supplied by India, and the third three are being built for Russia and will be ready to install ready-made Saturn engines.
  26. okroshka79
    okroshka79 19 February 2016 20: 38
    +3
    I fully support the Commander of the Black Sea Fleet, Admiral Alexander Vitko. Now there is such a disastrous situation with the ships of the oceanic zone of our fleet that the export of ships until the saturation of our fleet with the required number of ships of a certain class should be prohibited by law. And the fact that the Indians "sunk" on this ship project only says that the ships turned out to be successful. And in terms of combat effectiveness, eleven thirty-fifths were not even close. I will express my opinion. I believe that the command of our Navy made a very big mistake with the program for building ships in the ocean zone. In my opinion, it would be much more correct to launch a large series of 11356 ships at two plants - the Kaliningrad Yantar and the Northern Shipyard in St. Petersburg - as well-worked and well-proven ships and saturate all the fleets of our Navy with them. And for frigates of the "Admiral Gorshkov" type, first, to work out his weapons and technical means on some old converted ship. As, for example, this was done in Soviet times on the experimental ship OS-24 of the Black Sea Fleet. In fact, in the current situation the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" will turn out to be such. One air defense system "Polyment-Redut" is worth working out. As a result, there are essentially no ships - neither new nor old. Naval commanders, eh!
  27. altman
    altman 19 February 2016 21: 20
    0
    is it really impossible to buy turbines somewhere else through intermediaries .. in the same Ukraine? Or are our acting too honest?
  28. bmv04636
    bmv04636 19 February 2016 21: 35
    +1
    install gauges and put against the wall while the engines are doing I think is not a bad option.
  29. ALEXXX1983
    ALEXXX1983 19 February 2016 21: 46
    +1
    Quote: tilovaykrisa
    Rafali they still come sideways, they take off grief then grab it, and if ours do not put them to them too, then in general the coffins will be docked forever.

    The Rafal is a fighter, and the Mistral. yes
  30. rubidiy
    rubidiy 19 February 2016 22: 15
    0
    want to sell - let them sell. Who minds ??? Just let the latest 22350 frigates be put in their place.
  31. Vlad5307
    Vlad5307 19 February 2016 23: 19
    0
    Quote: Tol100v
    Quote: Mikado
    They will soon be unable to produce them.
    And very fast! There are no working capital. The main customer (Russia) - no. Compete with Germany and Sweden simply will not give! There will be no production without sales. This is what the European Union was striving for, which it has successfully achieved!

    And the West does not need a prosperous Ukraine! They need her as a jackal capable of unleashing a war with Russia, having previously defeated the LPNR. To do this, they give them the money for which the traitors are coming out to restore the voen.tekhnika and only in 2015 they produced a cloud of tanks, BMPs, etc. from stocks ... and they also began to pay contractors money comparable to contract soldiers in the Russian Federation. And since there are fewer and fewer jobs for the young, the number of troops was increased to 250 thousand. And the current renewed shelling is for them like final exams at the end of training courses. So they will not carry out Minsk-2, since they are seriously preparing for a new war with the LPNR. I hope our military experts keep their finger on the pulse and break this carnage in the bud! am soldier
  32. Mizhgan
    Mizhgan 20 February 2016 02: 22
    +1
    "The commander of the Black Sea Fleet Alexander Vitko said"
    If the commander said - the case will be considered ... Definitely ...
  33. Nikolay71
    Nikolay71 20 February 2016 03: 55
    0
    And they will not become obsolete while we wait?
  34. Koronik
    Koronik 20 February 2016 04: 31
    0
    Yes, Khokhlov’s grasp, that is, with the money received from Russia for the assembly of engines, now the finished engines will be sold to Indians, or to someone else. Double payment, you won’t say anything cool! And for me it’s not clear, why don’t we do something for the return of money or goods? I think they need to be handled by their own methods.
  35. Wolka
    Wolka 20 February 2016 05: 25
    0
    I’m not selling my cow to anyone, I need such a cow myself, the admiral is right, you can’t sell the boats of this project ...
  36. Evil 55
    Evil 55 20 February 2016 11: 34
    +2
    The Soviet Union riveted dozens of destroyers a year ... And we divide a series of 3 units ... Don’t tell the Lord, and don’t mess with my patriotic soul ...
  37. Manul
    Manul 20 February 2016 12: 55
    +1
    And why are we not suing for paid and ready-made engines? Even if they are subject to sanctions, let them return the money. And for good, it was necessary to immediately press Ukraine behind Faberge by completely closing the gas valve - where are the engines? You see, we’d already be standing on the ships.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. msm
      msm 20 February 2016 13: 18
      0
      Our government is like that. That's why!
      1. Manul
        Manul 20 February 2016 18: 32
        0
        Quote: msm
        Our government is like that. That's why!

        Do not generalize. Then we can say - both the people and the country. You will not be one of these for an hour? Government will always be bad for some part of the population. Maybe even more. In any country. If you are against the government, please tell the names specifically of those who do not suit you. We are not discussing the President and DAM, it is somehow trivial.
        1. Kuzyakin15
          Kuzyakin15 20 February 2016 22: 25
          0
          Quote: Manul
          Quote: msm
          Our government is like that. That's why!

          Do not generalize. Then we can say - both the people and the country. You will not be one of these for an hour? Government will always be bad for some part of the population. Maybe even more. In any country. If you are against the government, please tell the names specifically of those who do not suit you. We are not discussing the President and DAM, it is somehow trivial.

          And why? Why not discuss the president and DAM? Are not two or two responsible for the work of the GOVERNMENT before the state? Or are they TWO and are a STATE?
          1. Manul
            Manul 21 February 2016 10: 54
            +1
            Quote: Kuzyakin15
            And why? Why not discuss the president and DAM? Are not two or two responsible for the work of the GOVERNMENT before the state? Or are they TWO and are a STATE?

            Why don’t you want to discuss the rest? And the whole system that Putin inherited? And which exists all over the world? It is weak to think of the people to begin, and not to overthrow kings and state systems?
  38. Armata
    Armata 20 February 2016 20: 19
    0
    You rejoice at the ships on the expedite. Maybe when they begin to do something for us. Torment until 2020. to factory tests.))))))))))))))))))))))).