Military Review

Station for two: On the issue of “Mukden slap” Samsonova Rennenkampf

29
"... Such actions usually precede a general brawl, in which opponents throw their hats on the ground, call passers-by to witness and smear children's tears on their bristly muzzles" [1].


The First World War began for the Russian Empire with the tragedy of the invasion of East Prussia in August 1914. This battle caused enormous public resonance not only in Russia but also in Germany. Her official circles were immediately held historical parallels between the defeat of the 2nd army of the general from the cavalry A.V. Samsonov near Tannenberg and the Battle of Grunwald of the Middle Ages, in which the Teutonic Order was defeated by the allied Polish-Lithuanian-Russian armies. The victory of 1914 was positioned as revenge for the defeat in 1410. [2] and there was a certain logic and geographical correlation.

Station for two: On the issue of “Mukden slap” Samsonova Rennenkampf


In Russia, one of the pages of the history of the East Prussian operation is often associated with much closer, but territorially remote events of the Russian-Japanese war 1904 – 1905. On its fronts, in Manchuria, the future commanders of the ill-fated armies fought - the aforementioned Samsonov and the cavalry general P.K. von Rennenkampf. However, to a wide circle of readers this milestone of their career is known, rather, not by exploits, but ... by the slap in the face.

To quote the famous Soviet writer Valentin Pikul: “... The last time he fought with the Japanese; after the battles of Mukden, he came to the station platform - right from the attack! - to the train departure. When General Rennenkampf (nicknamed "Yellow Danger") got into the carriage, Samsonov cracked him in a red face:
“There you are, General, for eternal memory ... Wear it!”
Rennenkampf hid in the car. Samsonov, in a rage, shook his whip after the departing train:
“I led my lava into the attack, hoping that this nit would support me from the flank, and he spent the whole night in kaolyan and didn’t even put out a nose from there ...” [3].

Everyone who read the miniatures of Pikul is probably known for this vivid episode. The writer obviously considered him to be his creative success, including this scene and in the texts of his novels [4]. In one of them (“Unclean Power”), Lieutenant-General Rennenkampf, for unknown reasons, turns out to be completely in the latrine (?) Instead of the vegetation of vegetation.

It is customary to believe that he, harboring a grudge against Samson, allegedly, therefore, was slow in advancing the army in the course of the East Prussian operation and almost betrayed him. This article is devoted to the extent to which this “Mukden slap” story corresponds to reality.

Since the version of Pikul's events was already indicated, it would be reasonable to begin the analysis from it. So, according to the writer Samsonov, he insulted Rennenkampf at the railway station after the Mukden battle. The date and area of ​​Samsonov’s attack are not specified, information about it is abstract. However, even a cursory review convinces of the unjustified assertions about leaving Rennenkampf anywhere else during the Mukden operation.

At the very beginning of the battle (February 9), Lieutenant-General Rennenkampf assumed command of Lieutenant-General P.I. Mishchenko, seriously wounded in the battle of Sandepa. The forces of this detachment until February 16 conducted reconnaissance; then Rennenkampf a detachment of four hundred Cossack hundreds was formed to destroy the railway bridge in the Japanese rear. The sabotage was successful, but had virtually no effect on the development of hostilities. Already 26 February Rennenkampf returned to the command of the so-called. The Qinghechen squadron [5] and joined in the fighting. A.I. Denikin, who wrote: "The Rennenkampf detachment, with stubborn, bloody battles, gained deserved fame" [6], if he exaggerated, then, apparently, only stylistically ...



Almost immediately after the return of Rennenkampf, 28 February, was ordered to stop the supply of food for his squad, and the situation with him will remain tense until the completion of the operation [7]. During the retreat of the Russian armies to the Sypingai heights, the detachment was invariably in the rear guard. The loss of his personnel during the Mukden battle was recognized by the Military Historical Commission for describing the Russian-Japanese war as the highest in the entire I Army. It is appropriate to ask the question - how is the role of the head of the Siberian Cossack Division, General Samsonov, assessed in this major work?

On the pages of the mentioned multi-volume edition, the actions of a huge number of parts and formations, including “detachments” like Qinghechensky, are described. The intensity of their formation in the years of the Russian-Japanese war reached a peak: “There were cases of command by corps commanders of such tactical units, which included not even a single battalion of corps entrusted to them ... In one detachment, by force in the 51 battalion, there were military units of all three armies, from 11 corps, 16 divisions and 43 various regiments »[8]. Sometimes even the actions of officers with the rank of captain were honored with a separate consideration. On the attack of the Cossacks of General Samsonov, especially not supported by Rennenkampf from the flank, the authors-compilers of this fundamental research remain silent. Simply put, this attack was not, as there was no scandal generated by it on the railway platform in Mukden.

Thus, the version of events replicated in Pikul’s works does not hold water. However, the matter is not limited to it at all - another fiction writer, writer Barbara Thakman, in her famous book “The August Guns” reflected the following vision of the situation: “Hoffman claimed that he knew about the quarrel between Rennenkampf and Samsonov, which took place even during the Russian-Japanese war, where German observer. He says that the Siberian Cossacks of Samson, demonstrating courage in battle, were forced to surrender the Yentai coal mines due to the fact that the Rennenkampf cavalry division did not support them and remained in place, despite repeated orders, and that Samsonov hit Rennenkampf during sec. about this on the platform of Mukden station ”[9].



We are talking about the Liaoyang battle - the events of the end of August 1904. When the Russian command became aware of the preparation of the crossing of the forces of the Japanese General Kuroki to the left bank of the r. Taijihe bypassing the Russians ’flank, Kuropatkin decided to withdraw his troops deep into the front. It was then that the Russian cavalry units under the command of Samsonov were transferred by a forced march to the Yantai coal mines [10] for their further defense. To the south is the 54 th Infantry Division, Major General N.A. Orlova. On the morning of September 2, 1904, the latter launched an attack on the 12 of the Japanese brigade Shimamura. Its positions were located on the heights south of the village of Dayaop, while the Russians had to attack in the bush of Kaolin. Shimamura launched a counter attack east of Dayayaop, covering Orlov’s left flank and attacking the right. Russian troops fluttered and fled — in a panic they fired from the thicket of the opposing enemy in the thickets of kaolin, but it was indiscriminate fire on their own. In a hurry, he reassembled the troops (there were hardly more than a battalion). Orlov again tried to attack the Japanese in the direction of Dayaopa, but his orders were again scattered in the Gaolin, and the general himself was wounded.

According to the testimony of his contemporaries, the participants of this escapade were awarded the poisonous nickname "Orlov trotters". The tactical result of it was bleak - the tangible losses were useless, with more than 1,500 people killed and wounded by Samsonov [11] were knocked out from the Yantai mines. Rennenkampf all this time was in the hospital after being seriously injured in the leg of 13 in July 1904. [12] He could not help Samson, much less please him under the “hot hand”. Therefore, the version of events proposed by Takman is also incorrect. To the credit of the author, she herself was inclined to this conclusion: "It is doubtful that Hoffman believed his fairy tale or only pretended to believe" [13].

So, Takman connects the emergence of the story of the conflict between Samsonov and Rennenkampf with the figure of the officer of the German General Staff, Max Hoffman. This is where almost all the authors mention this episode. One enumeration of its variations could constitute a separate bibliographic review.

For example, here’s how the American writer Bevin Alexander portrayed the situation relatively recently: “Hoffman served as a military observer during the 1904 – 1905 Russian-Japanese War and witnessed a verbal argument between Samsonov and Rennenkampf on the railway platform in Mukden, in Manchuria, which ended in real a fight "[14]. Among specialists, this version, in particular, was picked up by Professor I.M. Dyakonov - really the largest specialist, however, in the history of the Ancient East. He wrote about the mediocre actions of “the chief of the General Staff of илиilinski and the generals Samsonov and Rennenkampf (who were at enmity with the slaps in the face, which they slapped on each other in 1905 on the railway platform in Mukden)” [15].

Historian TA Sobolevo these slaps probably seemed inconclusive, and therefore on the pages of her book “Samsonov came to the train departure when Ranenkampf got into the carriage and publicly threw him with a whip at all” [16].


Cavalry General A.V. Samsonov


Not less than the original version of the events expressed by the American war correspondent Eric Durshmid. He connects the conflict between the generals with the defense of the Yantai mines and, as we have already found out, this is not true. However, we abstract away from this convention and suppose that between Samsonov and Rennenkampf, a quarrel really broke out on the platform of the Mukden railway station. A word to the author: “Furious, Samsonov rushed to Rannenkampf, took off his glove and slapped a weighty slap in his face to his unreliable ally. A moment later, two generals rolled, like boys, on the ground, tearing off buttons, orders and epaulets. Solid people, division commanders beat and strangled each other until they were taken away by officers who happened to be near. ”[17] The subsequent duel between the generals allegedly seemed inevitable, but Emperor Nicholas II allegedly prevented her with his personal intervention.

For the scuffle Samsonov and Rennenkampf in the book Durshmida observes all the same indispensable Hoffman. A failed duel between them also has long been featured in foreign literature [18]. It is in this detail of the plot that one of its flaws is hidden.

Indeed, the duel as a kind of reaction to an insult was practiced in the Russian officer environment. For a long time it was banned, which at some point even led to the spread of the so-called. “American duels”, reminiscent of the medieval ordeal: use of pills, one of which is deadly poisonous, launching into a darkened room with opponents of a poisonous snake, etc. Therefore, in May 1894, the “Rules on litigation of incidents in officers”, which actually legalized duels among officers. The decision on their relevance or inappropriateness was transferred to the competence of the courts of the company officers (honor vessels), although their decisions were not binding [19]. However, it was forbidden to challenge officers due to a conflict related to the service.

In addition, intervention in the quarrel of Nicholas II himself seems highly unlikely. The king learned about the fights that had already taken place from the report of the Minister of War, who was provided with court materials on command and only then made a decision about the proceedings. Rumors of a future duel, no matter how quickly they did not spread, would hardly be ahead of the new appointments of opponents, who in the fall of 1905 were on the opposite borders of the empire. And one way or another they would have caused a certain resonance in secular circles of the capital - as is known, a duel between A.I. Guchkov and Colonel S.N. Myasoyedov instantly hit the pages of newspapers, and the police took urgent measures to prevent the fight [20]. To take seriously this detail, woven into the context of the quarrel, it would be rash, like many newspaper notes similar to it of that time: “Vossische Zeit.” Reports that Generals Kaulbars, Grippenberg, Rennenkampf and Bilderling, everybody for himself, called Kuropatkin on duel for the reviews about them in the book about the Russian-Japanese War ”[21].

The press still remains greedy for such scandalous plots from history, so the publication in the modern periodicals of the previously unknown Samsonov monologue after the slap in the face Rennenkampf does not surprise: “You have the blood of my soldiers, sir! I no longer consider you either an officer or a man. If you like, please send me your seconds ”[22]. However, the confidence in this mythology of such a major expert as the late Professor A.I. Utkin [23].



Meanwhile, it is necessary to identify the source of information about the notorious “Mukden slap”. As already noted, most of the authors telling about her refer to Max Hoffman as an eyewitness. But in fact, if someone from foreign military attaches could have witnessed a hypothetical skirmish between Samsonov and Rennenkampf, then either the Austro-Hungarian agent, Captain Sheptitsky (attached to the Trans-Baikal Cossack Division), or the French Shemion (attached to the Siberian Cossack Division, the Siberian Cossack Division, the Siberian Cossack Division, the Siberian Cossack Division, the Xinjiang Cossack Division, attached to the Siberian Cossack Division, the Siberian Cossack Division, the Chinese Cossack Division) ) [24]. During the years of the Russian-Japanese war, Max Hoffman was a military agent at the headquarters of the Japanese army [25] and could not be an eyewitness to anything at Mukden station after the battle.

The last doubts in this are waving his memories: “I heard from the words of witnesses (sic!) About the sharp collision between both commanders after the Liaoyang battle at Mukden station. I remember that even during the Battle of Tannenberg, we spoke with General Ludendorff about the conflict between both enemy generals ”[26].

Hoffman turned out to be more honest than many writers and historians who are not quite conscientiously appealing to him. Moreover, despite the commitment of the most memoirist version of the scandal after the abandonment of the Yantai mines [27], the situation depicted by him looks the most plausible of all the above. It was successfully formulated by the venerable military historian G. B. Liddell Harth: “... Hoffmann learned a lot about the Russian army; he learned, among other things, the story of how the two generals, Rennenkampf and Samsonov, had a big quarrel on the railway platform in Mukden, and it almost came to insults by action ”[28]. About slap, and the more fights, beating with a whip and the requirements of satisfaction, they are not even mentioned.

Could a similar situation take place? It should not be categorically rejected. A quarrel of generals could flare up, for example, after a battle on the r. Shah In it, the Samsonov detachment and the Rennenkampf division fought on the same sector of the front as part of General G.K. Stackelberg [29]. The actions of these parts were sometimes inconsistent and not only the fault of Rennenkampf. He covered the left flank of the cavalry of Samsonov, 9, which came out to Xianshanzi on October 1904, and in the morning of the same day tried to move further to the village of Bensiha with the support of the Lyubavin infantry squad. However, due to the hesitant actions of the latter, Rennenkampf also declined his idea.



October 11 last tried again to attack the fortified positions of the Japanese and was again forced to withdraw - this time because of the omission of none other than Samsonov. At the end, he retreated altogether, depriving Rennenkampf of the opportunity to organize another night attack. And it was then that the head of the Trans-Baikal Cossack Division, in turn, refused to support Samsonov, who had planned the attack, but had not decided on it. But this was not the result of the tyranny of Rennenkampf, but of Shtakelberg’s order to suspend the offensive of the entire Eastern Detachment [30].

The tactical initiative was missed - on October 12, Japanese forces launched an offensive. Even on the eve, Samsonov and Rennenkampf had the same task - advancement with the exit of General Kuroki’s army to the rear. However, the next day, he pulled up artillery to his right flank and under her fire Samsonov and Rennenkampf began to retreat from the positions. In this extremely difficult situation, including their own fault, the likelihood of a quarrel between the generals was much higher than ever before. But, according to the testimony of Baron P.N. Wrangel, an eyewitness to the events being described, didn’t happen anything like that: “... Coming up to the battery, General Rennenkampf dismounts and, moving aside with General Samsonov, confers with him for a long time about something” [31].

Be that as it may, the fictitiousness of Hoffman's "evidence" becomes apparent. Perhaps in his writings he focused on the quarrel between Samsonov and Rennenkampf with a quite common goal: to give post-factum more significance to his role in organizing the defeat of one Russian army and ousting another from East Prussia in 1914. It is strange that an experienced Prussian general staff member put on one step painstaking operational work and rumors a decade ago, but he could easily trump that he had notified the command of the 8 army about them.

As we could see, this example of Hoffman’s self-promotion gained quite a few supporters in domestic and foreign literature. One of the first Soviet authors to gain the confidence of the Soviet authors was A.K. Kolenkovsky [32]. Almost at the same time with him, the most prominent military historian of the Russian Diaspora, A.A. Kersnovsky, on the contrary, was indignant: “With the light hand of the notorious General Hoffman, the foreign press avoided ridiculous fables about some kind of personal enmity that allegedly existed since the Japanese war between Rennenkampf and Samsonov, and that, say, for this reason, the former did not give aid to the second. The absurdity of these statements is so obvious that they have nothing to refute ”[33]. In modern literature, the version of the "Mukden slap in the face" was unambiguously rejected by the writer V.Ye. Shambarov [34] is by no means an author who is scientifically scrupulous. On the whole, the situation that has developed in the historiography of the issue in question directly points to the insufficient knowledge of the events of the military history of Russia during the last reign.

This depressing conclusion is especially true with regard to the history of the First World War and even such a significant page as the East Prussian operation. The causes and circumstances of its unsuccessful outcome for the Russian army have long been named and discussed by experts. The significance of this battle within the framework of further developments remains a matter of debate - there are even opinions that Tannenberg 1914 has predetermined and substantially brought the collapse of the Russian empire [35]. However, it is completely incorrect to associate it with some kind of mythical quarrel between 2's generals in the years of the Russian-Japanese war, as E. Durshmid did nothing. Conscious or involuntary solidarity with him of some domestic historians can not help but surprise. Against this background, the skeptical attitude of the German historiography proper to the version of the conflict of Samsonov and Rennenkampf is indicative. After all, as the English historian J. Wheeler-Bennett reasonably noted, if the battle of Tannenberg was lost by the Russian troops at the railway station in Mukden ten years earlier, the German command cannot consider the victory in it as a merit [36].

The history of mankind develops in parallel with the mythology, they were and remain inextricably linked. However, until World War I researchers didn’t take the slap of generals, the many faces of the maid of honor, leading to the “German footprints” and the golden keys to it, the study of its history will be slowed down by the inertia of the sum of these and a number of other myths.

___________________________________________

[1] Ilf I.A., Petrov E.P. Twelve Chairs. Golden calf. Elista, 1991. C. 315.
[2] Pahalyuk K.A. East Prussia, 1914 – 1915. Unknown of the known. Kaliningrad, 2008. C. 103.
[3] Pikul V.S. Historic miniatures. T.II. M., 1991. C. 411.
[4] See for example: Pikul V.S. I have the honor: a novel. M., 1992. C. 281.
[5] V.I. Ivanov Mukden battle. To the 100 anniversary of the Russian-Japanese war 1904 – 1905. "Russia and the APR". 2005. No. 3. C. 135.
[6] Cit. by: Denikin A.I. The path of the Russian officer. M., 2002. C. 189.
[7] Russian-Japanese War 1904 – 1905 T.V. Mukden battle. Part of 2: From departure to the river. Hunhe to concentrate on the Sypingai positions. SPb., 1910. C. 322, 353.
[8] Airapetov OR Russian army on the hills of Manchuria. "Questions of history." 2002. No. 1. C. 74.
[9] Takman B. The First Blitzkrieg, August 1914. M .; SPb., 2002. C. 338.
[10] Russian-Japanese War. M .; SPb., 2003. C. 177.
[11] Portuguese R.M., Alekseev P.D., Runov V.A. World War I in the biographies of Russian military leaders. M., 1994. C. 319.
[12] P. Machs, Without Fear and Reproach! "Hourly". 1962. No. 430. C. 18; Showalter DE Tannenberg: Clash of Empires, 1914. Dulles (VA), 2004. P. 134.
[13] Takman B. The First Blitzkrieg, August 1914. C. 339.
[14] What are the rules of war? NY, 13. P. 2004. In the lane: Alexander B. How wars are won. M., 285. C. 2004.
[15] Diakonoff IM The paths of history. Cambridge, 1999. P. 232. In the per .: Dyakonov I.M. Paths of history: From the most ancient man to our days. M., 2007. C. 245 – 246.
[16] Cit. by: Sobolev, TA The history of encryption business in Russia. M., 2002. C. 347.
[17] Durschmied E. The hinge factor: How much and how much stupidity have changed history. Arcade, 2000. P. 192. In the per .: Durshmid E. Victory, which could not be. M .; SPb., 2002. C. 269 – 270.
[18] See, for example: Goodspeed DJ Ludendorff: Genius of World War I. Boston, 1966. P. 81.
[19] M. Shadskaya The moral character of the Russian officer of the second half of the XIX century. "Military Historical Journal." 2006. No. 8. C. 4.
[20] Fuller WC Lnd., 2006. P. 92. In the lane .: Fuller U. The Internal Enemy: Spying and the Fading of Imperial Russia. M., 2009. C. 112.
[21] See: Russian word. 26 (13) February 1906
[22] See: Chudakov A. "You went to the Mazury bogs ...". "Union Veche". Newspaper of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Union of Russia and Belarus. August 2009 G.S. 4.
[23] See: A. Utkin Forgotten tragedy. Russia in the first world war. Smolensk, 2000. C. 47; his own World War I. M., 2001. C. 120; his own Russian Wars: The 20th Century. M., 2008. C. 60.
[24] See: O. Yu. Danilov Prologue of the “Great War” 1904 – 1914 Who and how pulled Russia into a world conflict. M., 2010. C. 270, 272.
[25] Zalessky K.A. Who was who in the First World War. M., 2003. C. 170.
[26] M. Hoffman. The war of missed opportunities. M.-L., 1925. C. 28 – 29.
[27] Hoffman M. Tannenberg wie es wirklich war. Berlin, 1926. S. 77.
[28] Liddel Hart BH The Real War 1914 – 1918. Lnd., 1930. P. 109. In the per .: Liddel Garth B.G. The truth about the First World War. M., 2009. C. 114.
[29] A. Ganin "The bloody dawn was lit ..." The Orenburg Cossacks in the Russian-Japanese war. In: Russian-Japanese War 1904 – 1905. A look through the century. M., 2004. C. 294.
[30] Russian-Japanese War. C. 249.
[31] Cit. by: Wrangel PN Commander in Chief / Ed. V.G. Cherkasov St. George. M., 2004. C. 92.
[32] A.K. Kolenkovsky The maneuver period of the first world imperialist war 1914 M., 1940. C. 190.
[33] Cit. by: Kersnovsky A.A. History of the Russian army. T.IV. M., 1994. C. 194.
[34] Shambarov V.E. For Faith, Tsar and Fatherland. M., 2003. C. 147.
[35] See: Airapetov OR "A Letter of Hope to Lenin." East Prussian operation: causes of defeat. "Motherland". 2009. No. 8. C. 3.
[36] Wheeler-Bennett JW The Hindenburg: The Wooden Titan. Lnd., 1967. P. 29.
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  1. semirek
    semirek 13 February 2016 08: 19 New
    +3
    Honestly, this story with a slap in the face is not worth a damn, and it’s ridiculous to connect the defeat of Samsonov’s army with this event. By the way, with all due respect to V. Pikul, he has a lot of inaccuracies in the details, apparently due to the lack of archival materials.
    Failures in the Russian-Japanese war, developed primarily due to a lack of understanding of the scale of the war by Nikolai’s entourage, it seemed like a new somewhat larger “boxer uprising”, and here it was just that there needed a firm leadership on the spot, or it turns out, one general Port Arthur surrenders, the second, the admiral is a complete mess squadron, in fact there were no sensible generals, but where would they come from if Russia has not been at war for 30 years. 14 years old, but we started not bad, we must pay tribute - so quickly mobilize and throw 2 armies into battle, so that it caused a panic in Berlin, at some point it was necessary to stop and gain a foothold, waiting for the rear, but the suit went and it was near Warsaw at 20m, it turned out a raid on the rear of the enemy, by the way I would not say that he was a failure - the Germans chopped a lot.
    1. Turkir
      Turkir 13 February 2016 14: 07 New
      +4
      I liked the article by Bakhurin. But what remains behind the scenes is the death of Samsonov’s army.
      A story with a slap or a whip hit AFTER the tragedy or before?
      Bahurin did not pose this question to himself. In my opinion, this moment is extremely important.
      If he wanted to refute Pikul in his article, this makes his article belittled. Pikul, as an artist, had every right to convey to the reader the atmosphere of that era and wrote about what the contemporaries of those events said. He, as an artist, was interested in the psychological key to the tragedy. And he had every right to do so.
      This article would have a logically finished look - if it had an analysis of the failure of Samsonov’s offensive and Rennekampf’s involvement in it.
      I repeat - the "slap in the face" is secondary, it is only an application to the main event - to the death of Samsonov’s army. There is nothing about this in this article.
      ---
      I would like to remind commentators who understood this article only as an attack against Pikul that the best-selling book in the world, so far, is The Three Musketeers, and not the Old Testament.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 13 February 2016 23: 47 New
        +2
        Samsonov hit Renenkapp during the Russo-Japanese War: "I sent my lava to attack, and you sat in the bushes."
      2. alexej123
        alexej123 14 February 2016 02: 37 New
        0
        By the way, is V.S.Pikul right or not - did the Bolsheviks shoot Renenkamf for betraying Samsonov? Here is the question too.
    2. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 13 February 2016 15: 21 New
      +4
      The offensive of the 2 Russian armies began without serious preparation for the REQUEST of the allies (Save it !!!!!) so the Germans very energetically began to attack Paris. Thanks to the Russian breakthrough into Prussia, 2 corps were urgently thrown against them from the Western Front, surrounded Samsonov’s army and hit Renenkampfu hard, but Paris was SAVED !!! And so in the course of the 1st World War there were several times. What to do Russia depended on French bankers!
    3. bandabas
      bandabas 13 February 2016 15: 24 New
      +1
      Pikul is not a historian. Pure romantic publicist. Follower of Dumas. But there is nothing wrong with that. Heroically historical novels are good. Dartanyan did not make global history either. Although a real character.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 13 February 2016 23: 56 New
        +4
        I do not agree with you. Pikul sat in the archives. And when in the military archive they asked who Pikul was, he was sent in three letters.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 13 February 2016 08: 33 New
    +1
    Gave a slap in the train station .. everyone knows about the incident except the generals themselves .. If such a case had occurred, it would have certainly been reflected in the Russian press of that time, there would have been such a sensation .. But no one refers to the newspapers ...
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 14 February 2016 00: 07 New
      +2
      So all the officers knew about it, except for Nikolai. And for what did the great prince, an alcoholic, according to the faces of Zhilinsky give?
  3. V.ic
    V.ic 13 February 2016 09: 17 New
    +4
    About steam, you gentleman, well explained, winked Tell me: why does Enta contraption go on rails, and even pulls cars? Such a joke smile But seriously, it is better to read in the memoirs of Count A.A. Ignatiev about that unsuccessful war. Yes, I almost forgot: what about the second bike about the cupids of Rennenkampf with a certain Maria Sorrel? Dirty general underwear needs further consideration ...
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 14 February 2016 00: 19 New
      +3
      So, and the Bolsheviks shot Rennecappus, not so much that he suppressed the uprising of the workers, but that he betrayed Samsonov. Citizen Smokovnikov.
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 14 February 2016 00: 42 New
      +2
      ViC. offend. Damn, I'm not a master. I am the proletariat. am
    3. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 14 February 2016 04: 25 New
      +2
      And Count Ignatiev. by the way. recalled. person. with the face of Napoleon.
  4. netvrz
    netvrz 13 February 2016 10: 21 New
    +8
    The novels and stories of V. Pikul, claiming historicity, most of all resemble the historical authenticity of A. Dumas novels. And one and the other story is nothing more than a canvas for the actions of the main characters. Nevertheless, the works of both remain one of the most popular and readable, for which many thanks to them. And to derive some historical research on their data ... Let us leave this to the conscience of professional historians.
    1. avt
      avt 13 February 2016 11: 21 New
      +1
      Quote: netvrz
      The novels and stories of V. Pikul, claiming historicity, most of all resemble the historical authenticity of A. Dumas novels. And one and the other story is nothing more than a canvas for the actions of the main characters.

      But, but! Look here is a heretic! wassat Now those who run the name -Pikul utter with aspiration and now run every historical utterance with the lines of the deified, “historian.” So, before entering the fire you have to take one step. laughing A plus from the author for me, I beautifully stated - it’s not abstruse and quite imagined with links and the illustration of the article is impressive good Well, from the adherents of the Pikul sect - a life cycle with nails.
      1. V.ic
        V.ic 13 February 2016 13: 24 New
        +3
        Quote: avt
        - lifelong cyc with nails.

        You set your own minus / cm. "life"/. The classics of the genre must be treated with care: "Chatlanin - life etsih with nails! "http://215vtenture.ru/topic7.html
        Quote: avt
        Now those who run the name -Pikul generally aspirate

        You yourself didn’t exhaust yourself, dear beloved, with literary donation, are you more and more marked in the “criticism” section? Here, therefore, do not pour figs into the "the man who made himself". Most of the so-called In the Soviet period, “critics” proceeded from feces mainly from the “chosen people”, that faceless mass whom M. Bulgakov in the novel “The Master and Margarita” referred to as the term “Massolite”. Anointing Valentin Savvich Pikul as govnets, walking in such a way, at ease, was considered the rule of “good form” in circles of the then “Soviet intelligentsia”. Yes, the literary talent of the MASTER of historical prose V.S. Pikul is still bewildering in a famous place among admirers of the "truly correct line" that some "experts" still like to sign in the comments when mentioning the Russian writer VALENTIN SAVICH PIKUL! PS I did not minus you / yet / for your comment.
        1. avt
          avt 13 February 2016 14: 26 New
          -2
          Quote: V.ic
          You yourself didn’t exhaust yourself, dear beloved, with literary donation, are you more and more marked in the “criticism” section?

          Yes, the historian was not noted in graphomania, and in general there wasn’t even a hunch in the 90s to write fiction and other women’s novels under whose authorship. Here, as a young man, he read “Moscow and Muscovites” quite a chronicle / the reporter of that time, Gilyarovsky, didn’t feel like hunching over his literary, “cancer”.
          Quote: V.ic
          Yes, you can see the literary talent of the MASTER of historical prose by V.S.Pikul

          Yes, the completeness of fantasy on a historical theme with an aspiration, then so ascend to heaven extremely high. Well, the writer is a middle-level science fiction writer, on the very shelf ,, Moonsund "stands and somewhere, there were," Cruisers ", but just enough to get acquainted with the real facts and memoirs of the participants in the events described, it’s clear how everything immediately turns upside down Pikul’s novels and frank slavishness in describing specific facts and events cannot be hidden behind aspirated words about
          Quote: V.ic
          and the mention of the Russian writer VALENTIN SAVVICH PIKUL!

          Quote: V.ic
          S. I did not minus you / yet / for your comment.

          wassat Am I right now from this in sorrow to cry, or laugh !? Especially from bye! ?? wassat And let me put you a minus, you look and find out what will actually happen after this, until laughing Is it really a “black list”, or “an eternal minus”, or even worse than that - an eternal ,, ban "?? laughing It is decided - I will do so.
          1. V.ic
            V.ic 13 February 2016 16: 23 New
            +1
            Quote: avt
            I cry right now in sorrow , or laugh !?

            A comma is not required here, by the way ...
            Quote: avt
            It is decided - I will do so.

            Pro "lifelong cyc with nails "also decide! With the mattress will you serve go without it?yes
      2. sibiryouk
        sibiryouk 13 February 2016 15: 11 New
        0
        V. Pikul IS NOT A HISTORIAN! And a fiction writer, he wrote fiction novels, novels and miniatures on historical topics in the historical joke genre. In his interviews, he himself admitted that. By the way, he claimed that he takes small details in his works from personal library of all kinds of reference books, encyclopedias and rare antique books. However, in his works it is FULLY of minor inaccuracies, mistakes and mistakes in what he was constantly reproached by specialists in naval history, military equipment and weapons, historians. In Soviet times, he often read such criticism in the most diverse journals on the subject (e.g., Sea Collection or Soviet Warrior).
        1. Turkir
          Turkir 13 February 2016 16: 45 New
          +5
          True, at the same time, in his works FULLY of minor inaccuracies, mistakes and mistakes in what he was constantly reproached by specialists in naval history, military equipment and weapons, historians

          You might think that the historians of the “professionals” have no mistakes.
          Let me give you an old example, by the time the film "Ships Enter the Bastions" was made. About F. Ushakov. Admiral Isakov, the main military consultant of the film. The film shows the reception of Ushakov on the British ship Nelson.
          Oh, how many angry “professionals” of historians appeared here who claimed and swore by their mother that there was no such meeting.
          All this whistle continued until Isakov showed the original (!) Full reception in English, released in two (!) Copies. The second instance, it turns out, is in the British Admiralty.
          In addition, Pikul wrote at a time when access to historical archives was allowed only to “professionals” and even then not to everyone. Confirmation was required that this "professional" officially (!) Works on this topic. He did not have access to historical documents not related to his subject.
          Valentin Pikul - wrote his books on the basis of open sources and, for your information, repeated ... mistakes of "professionals".
          Now, after the death of Pikul, new facts have appeared about those events about which Pikul simply could not know!
          To the honor of Pikul, he collected enormous material on the kinship of the Russian nobility, which many historians do not know, thanks to which he understood the hidden side of the historical events of characters based on kinship.
          The merit of such authors as Dumas and Pikul is that the characters of their fictional characters are historical, i.e. act not in terms of modern morality and ethics, but in terms of of his era. Therefore they are alive!
          What can not be said about the ubiquitous fandorin or other similar literary cardboard solders that are out historical time and space.
          1. V.ic
            V.ic 13 February 2016 17: 59 New
            +1
            Quote: Turkir
            the film "Ships enter the bastions." About Ushakova F.F.

            "Ships storm the bastions." About Ushakova F.F.
            1. alexej123
              alexej123 14 February 2016 02: 40 New
              0
              Yes, the first film is Admiral Ushakov. Two films.
        2. semirek
          semirek 13 February 2016 17: 58 New
          0
          Here is one of them - Nikolai the second, who was hit on the head, in a Serbian monastery, allegedly because he decided to meet a small need, almost at the altar, there is no big secret that being a prince, Nikolai received a saber strike during his tour of Asia, while in Japan, hence his dislike of the samurai, by the way V. Pikul died on the birthday of Nicholas II, a strange coincidence.
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 14 February 2016 00: 30 New
      +2
      Yes. he has a collective image. But, wasn’t Hoffman the chief of the RAM? And the nutty mullah, General Postovsky?
    3. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 14 February 2016 04: 18 New
      +2
      But I have two desk books lying. One is called Infantry Weapon and the other I have Honor.
  5. bbss
    bbss 13 February 2016 15: 54 New
    +1
    Pikul is one of my favorite writers. He was and will be! However, I personally do not recommend studying the details of the history of his works. He is a writer, a great writer! By the way, how do you like Alexander Belyaev? Also do not break away from historical novels. But when you get interested in the details ... recourse
  6. avt
    avt 13 February 2016 16: 18 New
    0
    Quote: bbss
    ! However, I personally do not recommend studying the details of the history of his works.

    good It is absolutely true and, most valuable, expressed by a person who clearly shares personal preferences (And who does not have them?)
    Quote: bbss
    Pikul is one of my favorite writers. He was and will be!
    and does not mix genres
    Quote: sibiryouk
    V. Pikul-NOT A HISTORY! A fiction writer,

    fiction with documentary, well, if you like, for harmony. Well, I like, nobody forced me to read his novels either, and
    Quote: avt
    , on the shelf itself, Moonsund stands
    Not for anyone to torture me. But why should a chronicler be made of it? He, in my opinion, completely fulfilled his role - aroused interest in the topic and even the fact that he made many pay attention to
    Quote: sibiryouk
    . True, at the same time, in his works there are FULLY minor inaccuracies, mistakes and mistakes in what he was constantly reproached by specialists in naval history, military equipment and weapons, and historians.

    already good - the real facts of past events surfaced in the same controversy.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 13 February 2016 17: 26 New
      0
      Quote: avt
      already good - the real facts of past events surfaced in the same controversy.

      Quote: V.ic
      Pro "lifelong cyc with nails "also decide! With the mattress will you serve go without it?
  7. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 16 February 2016 15: 47 New
    0
    Great historical investigation! Pikul is a brilliant writer and the main historical milestones he has saved! “If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean that the truth will remain! There is a high probability that nothing will remain at all” (Jerzy Lets, approximately). Maybe there was a litter between them, maybe they quarreled because of a woman, or maybe it's speculation. But the author is a big plus!