Military Review

Once again about Trajan’s column as a historical source

36
Nowadays, television and "relevant News", The general rush and, as a result, the desire to get everything as soon as possible, including knowledge, do not be surprised that many people often do not know basic things and constantly ask:" How is this known? " How do you know that the Etruscans are not Russian, because the words are similar, how do you know that in such a century the Roman warriors wore daggers, and in such a century that the Romans did not use a bow and sling, but widely used mercenaries who also used , and others, and so on and so forth ... Meanwhile, there are written sources, archaeological finds and, say, such an outstanding historical a monument of Roman history, like the column of Trajan.


Once again about Trajan’s column as a historical source

Here it is - "Square Colosseum"

In the material on the pages of the All-Russia Public Association “Do not trust your eyes or the column of Emperor Trajan as a reliable historical source” (http://topwar.ru/73172-.html) this monument has already been considered. However, this topic is so interesting that it makes sense, without repeating, to return to it again, taking into account the new information. And you have to start ... with a wish in one of the comments to keep this interesting monument. Here is what was written there: silver169 “Such a most valuable, unique historical sample of the late Roman period must be kept in a closed pavilion. Recall what happened to the world-famous sculpture by Michelangelo "David", which for a long time was under the open sky and was very affected by the effects of precipitation and weathering. In the end, the sculpture was forced to move inside the Florentine Academy of Fine Arts. But it happened in the distant 1873 year. In our time, precipitation is a real acid that destroys marble. It is a pity if the carving on the column of Troyan will die. After all, this is a historical heritage not only of Italy, but of the entire cultural world. ”


Initially, the column was not intended to be white. Her figures were to be painted in different colors, and in the hands of her characters was supposed to be a miniature bronze weapon!


This is how it should look like in the original!

It is quite logical, isn't it? But ... to disassemble the column and transport it somewhere, or on the contrary - to hide it inside the glass column-case ... Of course, the problem with its safety will have to be solved very soon. But, the Italians still made sure that, at least, copies of all its remarkable bas-reliefs would be kept under the roof and in no way exposed to the weather. So now, if you find yourself in Rome and want to carefully examine all of its remarkable bas-reliefs, you will not need either binoculars or quadrocopters. You can just get in a taxi and say: “Universite Romana” and you will be taken there, the benefit is just 20 minutes from Rome. There you will immediately see the building of fantastic architecture. Very similar to the Colosseum, however white and cubic in shape! It was built by dictator Benito Mussolini as a pavilion for the 1942 world exhibition of the year, and to adequately celebrate the twentieth anniversary of fascism invented by him and the beginning of the Fascist era. Because of the war, the exhibition never took place, and Mussolini was overthrown on 1943. And this very “palace of fascism”, the Colosseo Quadrato or Square Colosseum, was turned into the Palace of Italian civilization (Palazzo della Civilta Italiana). Like the Colosseum, its facades consist of loggias, arranged in six rows of nine arches each. Italians are sure that all this is equal to the number of letters in the name “Benito”, and, accordingly, in the name “Mussolini”.


The inscription on the pedestal.

The palace is covered with marble. Its base occupies 8,400 square meters, and the entire volume of the building is equal to 205,000 cubic meters with a height equal to 68 meters. Sculptures of the Dioscuri are set at the four corners. Well, as for the column of Trajan, this building is now connected with it in the most inseparable way: it has plaster casts of all its bas-reliefs, but there is a developed “plaster cloth” in length of 190 meters. All the impressions were made with the help of the Vixint matrices, thus, an exact copy of all the reliefs of the column was created in the form in which they are today, that is, with all the existing damage. And, of course, it was done more than timely, as the state of the column continuously deteriorates - automobile exhaust gases cause irreparable damage to it. Proved over the past 50 years, it has deteriorated more than in all previous 1850 years. In addition, it begins to gradually deviate from its vertical position, and no one knows how to deal with this. Besides, it is very difficult to fix it. After all, the column was built without the use of fastening solution. All its blocks are connected by iron or copper clamps, and those in turn are filled with lead, and the clamps themselves are in the thickness of the blocks.

The column stands on a plinth pedestal, decorated with bas-reliefs depicting Dacian trophies. The following items are written on it: "SENATVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS IMP. CAESARI DIVI NERVAE F. NERVAE TRAIANO AVG. GERM. DACICO PONTIF. MAXIMO TRIB. POT. XVII IMP. VI COS VI PP AD DECLARANDVMVPVPVTs IVPVTVVPV.PVVI ROMANVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS IMP. "-" the Senate and the Roman people [erected this column] Emperor Caesar Nerva Trajan Augustus, son of the divine Nerva, Germanic, Dacian, great pontiff, tribune of the people in positions of authority in 17-th time, the Emperor in 6-th time, the Consul in 6- the first time, Father of the Fatherland, in order to make it clear how tall the hill was, to make room for the construction of such significant structures. " It is known that the fakes in marble do not work out, so the subverters of the foundations regarding the antiquity of this monument need not worry - to question its antiquity anyway, that to doubt that the Sun rises in the East.


Staircase leading inside the column.

It is known that there were two wars with the Dacians: 101 - 102. BC; 105 - 106 AD The last war ended with the accession of Dacia to the Roman Empire. Well, now we come to the main point: what can we see on the bas-reliefs of the Trajan column, if we carefully examine them almost closely.

So, the protective armor of the Romans: there are only three. Roman legionaries are wearing lorica segmentata lamellar armor made of curved and metal stripes facing each other; Auxilarians (auxiliary troops) wear lorica hamata chain mail; Well, among the archers, many in scaly armor lorica scuamata.


Here is the room with copies of the bas-reliefs of the column.

The reliefs of the column of Traian convincingly prove that the eastern warriors could wear several types of armor at once. Over their long, down to almost toes tops, they could have a chain mail shirt with short sleeves of the “Lorik Hamata” type, and a carapace made of metal scales of the “Lorica Skumat” type. According to Michael Simkins, the advantage was still given to the chain mail, as it was more comfortable in battle and less constrained by the movements of the eastern shooter, although scaly armor was superior to chain mail in strength. Well, in order that neither metal scales, nor rings rub their necks, the warriors usually tied it with a scarf.


Legionnaires in the campaign.

Epigraphic sources indicate that most of the eastern support units that fought in Moesia and Dacia consisted precisely of archers armed with composite bows. Their importance in the Roman army during the first two centuries of the new era increased all the time and reached its apogee in the 3rd c. AD So no invasion of the Huns and ready nothing to do with it. Especially prized archers from Palmyra. They had excellent composite, characteristic only for the eastern peoples, bows, their fighting qualities different from all others.


Syrian archers and German slingers.

Almost all the specialists who studied the military affairs of ancient Rome note both the power and the range of this type of weapon. A heavy military arrow fired from it flew on the 150-200 m, and the light one was twice as far. This bow was much shorter than the English long bow. It was made of wood, and for greater strength it was strengthened on the inner side of the bend with horn plates, and outside with tendons. The penetrating power of the weapon was increased, strengthening the ends of the bow with horn tips. The shooter had from 12 to 24 arrows that were kept in fire (on fire - wooden case for bows and arrows; separate case for bows - on beam or sided, case for arrows or bolts - quiver; sided, also used as a synonym for fire ), which was worn on a belt thrown over the right shoulder, on the back. In the arsenal of sagittary, that is, the archer, there was also a Roman-style sword, which he, like the usual infantryman, wore in a sheath on his right side.


Note the flat circle on the right and below the emperor figure. It is nothing more than a closed hole, which the “metal hunters” made to extract the brackets holding the marble drums of the column. It turns out that the entire Colosseum is exactly in the same holes.


The Wikipedia article "Romfey" states that the Dacians used something like Romfey, but only their weapons were called falx. The main difference between them was the bending of their blades: in Romfey, it was straight or slightly curved, but in a falx the blade was curved very strongly. Pay attention to the damage caused to the bas-reliefs by nature - the impression is that the bas-reliefs were gnawing at the mouse!


The Dacian allies in this war were Sarmatians who supplied cavalry to the Dacians, and this is what Tacitus writes about: the Sarmatian leaders and noble warriors have so heavy armor that a warrior who fell from his horse can barely get back on his feet without help. And also “that their spears and swords are so long that they have to be held with both hands”.

As noted in the previous article, a number of surprising contradictions are clearly visible on the column. Thus, in running Sarmatian horsemen, the scales covered not only themselves, but also their horses, and even their tails! Here we see the Sarmatian armor in the form of trophies - these are normal, scaly shells of shirt-cut, known from archaeological finds.


Sarmatian trophies.

What is this incompetence of the sculptor or an evil satire? Alas, but to prove both of these assertions is not possible today. In addition, many Roman riders or auxiliaries' legionnaires have very short chain mails with a scalloped hem. The Syrian archers are very long, whereas the Romans are too short, so they don’t even close the “most important”. And besides, the Romans - all, without exception, very small shields.


From such small shields a decent "turtle" can not be built!

Analyzing the frequency of the image of flat oval shields of warriors on a column and tile-like rectangular scutums, we can make an amazing conclusion that the first are more than 80%, and the second for some reason are very few and if we know exactly who the shields of the Romans at that time were ... Who then fought in Dacia? It turns out that the bulk of the Roman troops already consisted of mercenaries — auxiliaries, eastern archers, and German slingers, and there were very few of the legionnaires among them!

One might think that there was mostly dismounted cavalry that was known to be the main unit of the 500 man (ala quingenaria), which consisted of 16 rides around the 30 riders. It is believed that the imperfection of the Roman cavalry is due to the imperfection of the horse harness. They had neither stirrups nor saddles, instead of which on each horse there were two blankets (go chaprak), lower and upper, made of cloth, leather or fur, reinforced with a belt girth, as well as a breastplate and braggart. The lower blanket was longer and wider, sometimes with a fringe along the edge, and the upper one was shorter and narrower, with festoons along the lower edge. Both blankets were connected using ribbons, buttons or straps. The bib and harpover were decorated with metal plates in the form of crescents, chased discs and flat flower buds. A bridle with two reins and headbands with decorations was used to control the horse. Here, on a horse “dressed” in all this, the Roman horseman was sitting with a shield on his left hand, holding in it the reins, but in the right spear or sword. To control the horse had to reins and Shenkeli, but to fight and control the horse in the presence of such a harness was quite difficult, especially since the Romans themselves were by nature rather infantry than riders.


Roman rider from the column of Trajan.


A stone block of this size will be too heavy to be lifted up and carried on your shoulder so easily. And either it is an earthen block, or another liberty of the artist, thus demonstrating the power of the Roman soldiers.


Decebal in a typical Dacian helmet and with a long sword. Everything is just the same as in the movie "Duck".

Dion Cassius writes that the head and the right hand of Detsebal (this is also mentioned in the well-known films “Dacia” and “Column”) was presented to Traian, located in the Rannisstorum fortress, whose location is unknown. In 1965, during the excavations near the city of Philippi in Macedonia, archeologists found a tombstone of the explorator (exploratores - reconnaissance) of the Second Pannonian aber of Tiberius Claudius Maximus. The inscription on it informs that it was he who managed to seize the body of the Dacian king, and then delivered the bloody trophy to his emperor. First, the head of Detsebal was put on a platter in the middle of the Roman camp, and then sent to Rome, where she was thrown from the Hemonium Terrace into the Tiber. So the credibility of the scenes depicted on the column is very great, but as for the details of military equipment, the questions still remain!


“And in the Pacific Ocean, we finished our campaign!” At the left, at the very top, the Dacians leave Dacia and take the cattle with them.
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 12 February 2016 07: 15
    0
    Interesting. We learn a lot through the history of Rome. Is it known which tree species were used in the compound bow?
    1. kalibr
      12 February 2016 08: 12
      0
      The Romans or someone else?
      1. Vend
        Vend 12 February 2016 09: 43
        +1
        The column was erected at the forum of Trajan in Rome in the 113 year BC. e. in honor of the victories of Trajan over the Dacians. The architect is Apollodorus of Damascus, Greek by nationality. Therefore, the sculptor mg see with his own eyes both prisoners and trophies, and speak with the participants in the battles. So I think how it can be used as a historical source. The question is, the reliability of the size, so it has never been one of the strengths of artists and sculptors. But we can understand how the shields looked, what shape they were, what helmets were, and so on. After all, there are archaeological finds confirming the images on the column. I would like to have in the piggy bank all the images from the column.
        1. kalibr
          12 February 2016 10: 35
          +2
          You can! There are digitized flat images, there is an image from the "White Colosseum" - everything is on the Web!
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 12 February 2016 11: 00
        0
        I caught my eye on the "archers from Palmyra". What then happened to the forests around Palmyra? Now, as you know, the desert. Or brought it from somewhere?
        1. Chiropractor
          Chiropractor 12 February 2016 14: 07
          +1
          In the pictures about the legionnaires in the campaign and rimfeyy - it’s not the weather that spoiled, it was knocked with a chisel. And the weather smoothed out a bit.

          On the painted column - the ports of the legionnaires in red. In yesterday's article, there was a bum about the red color of clothes. Cant.
          1. kalibr
            12 February 2016 21: 17
            0
            How much later I bought and sell. I did not dye my pants and I did not write about unbleached fabric. I just translated the first from English and laid out a reconstruction of the second!
        2. kalibr
          12 February 2016 21: 15
          0
          Cyprus now also can not boast of dense forests. But all described him as an island covered in dense forests! So they could bring both from Cyprus, and from Lebanon.
        3. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 15 February 2016 13: 10
          0
          What then happened to the forests around Palmyra? Now, as you know, the desert. Or brought from somewhere?
          Two factors:
          1. The increase in population density and the associated increase in deforestation.
          2. General climate change in the region. In this particular case, desertification.
    2. Max_Bauder
      Max_Bauder 12 February 2016 14: 45
      0
      The author was a little mistaken in thinking that the Syrians from Palmyra invented the compound compound bow. A compound bow is an invention exclusively of the nomads of Eurasia, it’s understandable why, since you need to shoot further in the steppe at long distances, you can’t quietly sneak up like in a forest, and because everything on horseback must be convenient, it’s therefore short. The Romans could learn first of all, from the Sarmatian mercenaries who themselves were nomads, and lived in the north of the Caspian, and knew this technology. Also, the Romans could learn about the bow from the Greeks, they fought with the Persians in the Peloponnesian wars, in the mercenaries of which were Saki, who also used this bow. There, all Syria (Assyria) can find out.
      1. kalibr
        12 February 2016 21: 18
        +1
        I never wrote that the Syrians from Palmyra invented the complex bow. Pharaoh Thutmose III still had a complex bow ... And the Scythians were mercenaries among the Athenians ...
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 14 February 2016 02: 50
        -1
        Max_Bauder (3) KZ February 12, 2016 14:45 ↑ New
        The author was a little mistaken in thinking that the Syrians from Palmyra invented the compound compound bow. A compound bow is an invention exclusively of the nomads of Eurasia,


        1) And when did the author think so? belay It says: the Romans trudged from Palmyra archers.
        2) Compound bow for thousands and thousands of years. And our native Great Steppe - it is not the only one in Eurasia. It is known that the Hyksos nomads exterminated the Egyptians precisely with the help of such complicated bows. And they spied it on the distant ancestors of the Cimmerians or gave birth to them - it's a dark matter ...
        3) In the Peloponnesian wars, the Greeks muttered themselves, beloved. And the Persians looked at it with emotion because of (through a hyphen they write!) The sea.
        4) Syria (Suri) and Assyria (Ashur) are all different countries.
    3. Sweles
      Sweles 12 February 2016 16: 31
      +3


      the inscription on the column is made in words, which is called RUSTICA, how much Russian is in Italy, ETRUS, RUSTIC.


      Slovenian slovenist Matey Bor conducting a study of PIRGIN PLATES, which are strange and unfairly forgotten, like Matey Bor himself he translated from Etruscan, and so there is a translation

      This temple was erected and called it a sanctuary of joy by the goddess Juno or Astarte VOEVODA VELIANUS, Prince of Slavs ...
  2. inkass_98
    inkass_98 12 February 2016 08: 02
    +5
    Vyacheslav, but you yourself perfectly understand that the relief on the column is a very specific source of knowledge about the real armor and weapons of the Romans and their opponents. The statue is much more informative and reliable, it lacks approximation. The most accurate source will be an archaeological find, but there will be a place for guesswork because of the fragility of the materials from which the objects of material culture were made. Everything that is not ceramics is subject to decay and rust, even bronze weapons are no exception.
    Reconstruction should be based on various sources, but then there will be room for speculation.
    Yes, we were digging out carts of the same Novotitar culture, the wooden wheels and the skeleton of the wagon were preserved, but in the end we could get only an approximate idea of ​​its appearance, there was no smell of accuracy.
    Or Meotian settlements and Sarmatian burials - there are many finds of ceramics, weapons, jewelry, but again - there is a general appearance, and the details often slipped away.
    Z.Y. Do not take for moralizing, I am still a very former historian.
    1. kalibr
      12 February 2016 08: 10
      +1
      No, you write everything correctly. But it is better to have it than not to have it. I was at the excavations of Tanais, Gorgippia, and in various other places, I have the same famous Zolotarevka at my side. And they find something, but "there are no pants." And it is clear that on the column the scaly tails of the Sarmatian horses are a mockery expressed in stone. So, of course, the source is specific. But good!
      1. Cap.Morgan
        Cap.Morgan 12 February 2016 08: 50
        +1
        You want to say that if the artifact, in this case, the relief on the column is contrary to the opinion accepted by historians on this subject, then the theory is true and not a fact, not the image that we see before our eyes.
        The ancients portrayed what actually happened, there was no place for science fiction.
        1. Aljavad
          Aljavad 14 February 2016 03: 02
          0
          the ancients portrayed what was actually there, there was no place for science fiction.


          Do you think that Lucian of Samosatsky quite seriously reached the moon on a rowing ship, talked with the inhabitants there and returned back? And he described it!
    2. Cap.Morgan
      Cap.Morgan 12 February 2016 08: 50
      +1
      Incredible detail.
      1. kalibr
        12 February 2016 10: 37
        +1
        Yes, but the shields are smaller than those found, smaller than those depicted on other bas-reliefs. Well, the armored tails of the Sarmatian horses and "scaly legs" are not even fiction.
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 12 February 2016 08: 09
    +1
    Everything is exactly the same as in the movie "Ducky."..In due time, I watched several times .. Thank you, Vyacheslav ..
    1. King, just king
      King, just king 12 February 2016 18: 27
      +2
      Yeah, there was a time. I remember with my homies I went to school about 5 times, the beginning of the 80s. Only "Vikings" with Douglas died down (they also walked about 5 times), and then "Ducky".

      I was extremely surprised afterwards. that the Vikings on the 58th. and "Daki" on the 67th. And we showed it in the early 80s, I don't remember exactly, but like in 80-81? I remember the class was 4-5.

      And what happened when I managed to get on the "Senor Robinson", too, like 80-81 (children under 16), when he (who played Fantozzi) raised the mat on the black woman's chest ... What happened at school ... A month of conversations. And when there was the premiere of "The Four Musketeers" (where Charlot's group), the doors were taken out in the cinema, once the show was interrupted 10 times, a crowd was standing around the cinema (we guys, including). It was on Sakhalin, in one regional center ... Nda ...

      I will add. Uncle moderators, thank you very much for not wrinkling over the offtopic, giving people some hesitation!
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 14 February 2016 03: 04
        0
        early 80s. Only "Vikings" with Douglas died down (they also walked about 5 times), and then "Ducky".


        The film "Ducky" is older. Early 70s. But good!
  4. Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 12 February 2016 08: 41
    0
    In the photo, the warrior is completely chained in chain mail armor with the same horse.
    Apparently this is the enemy of the Romans. It turns out that underdeveloped Dacians have better weapons than the Romans.
  5. Miner
    Miner 12 February 2016 08: 54
    +1
    The author writes:
    Analyzing the frequency of the image of flat oval shields of warriors on a column and tile-like rectangular scutums, we can make an amazing conclusion that the first are more than 80%, and the second for some reason are very few and if we know exactly who the shields of the Romans at that time were ... Who then fought in Dacia? It turns out that the bulk of the Roman troops already consisted of mercenaries — auxiliaries, eastern archers, and German slingers, and there were very few of the legionnaires among them!


    As they say - well, you give my friend a pancake! :)


    No, really! :)

    After all, this is by no means a secret, how much has been said and an unambiguous and justified conclusion has already been made and drawn up long ago: in the Dacian Wars of Trajan, the main burden of the war was borne by the units of the auxiliary troops themselves.

    For the classical formations of the Roman army - heavily armed infantrymen - could not with sufficient efficiency "pull the strap" of this rather peculiar war (steep hills, mountains, hollows, etc., constantly, quite often encountered during the entire, literally ALL campaign).

    In such conditions, the use of heavily armed infantry of the Roman type and the use (and above all - the movement) of what is called the classic siege weapons of the "Roman type" was not only difficult, but in general (within the framework of the supposed successful military campaign) was essentially impossible.

    This is no secret to anyone and is a long-known historical fact.


    It is strange that this was a discovery for someone in 2016 ...
    1. kalibr
      12 February 2016 10: 39
      +2
      Where is it written that this discovery? This is a banal analysis of the source base.
  6. Miner
    Miner 12 February 2016 09: 13
    +1
    The author writes:
    So the reliability of the depicted scenes on the column is very high,
    but as for the details of military equipment, questions still remain!


    Fact.

    My article +


    PS
    By the way, even in Soviet times, I read repeatedly that the information described by the author at the beginning of the article (and for some reason not brought to its logical conclusion) about the alleged presence of weapons in the hands of the characters of Trajan's column is the most well-known fact - that is there is a "weapon" in the hands of the characters of Trajan's column, it was there from the very beginning and traces of its original presence are what is called "on the face".

    In the form of recesses for him.


    And one more fact - from the very beginning Traian’s column was arranged in such a way that the spectators observing it gradually ascending the spiral staircase encircling the column, having the opportunity to perfectly see the events reflected on its bas-relief.

    The column was designed for this from the very beginning, for there were no other ways to discern it.

    And it was not supposed ...

    In the sense that the Romans, being very practical guys, did not assume that someone would examine the CAREFULLY executed bas-reliefs using Zeiss optics or using a step-by-step photograph of the Column fragments.

    And the chronology of the events reflected on the Column is displayed just like that - so that the viewer could step by step, as he inspects, listen to the events reflected on it, the successful military campaign of the Great Emperor.
  7. Miner
    Miner 12 February 2016 09: 41
    +2
    Something cannot be corrected or supplemented with my first message.

    I have to say this in a separate post, therefore I apologize.


    The bottom line is this: before the resumption of the war with Decebal, Traian carefully and thoroughly studied both the theater of alleged military operations and the mistakes made by his predecessor - the son of Vespasian Flavius.

    Namely, analyzing the misfortunes of the first Dacian war, which led to the destruction of the Roman military units under the command of the not-so-famous Fusk, it was difficult not to conclude, to put it mildly, the difficulty of using the classical Roman army, consisting of Roman citizens in the upcoming campaign against the Dacians.


    PS
    Yes, I watched, without exaggeration, the wonderful film "Ducky" :) and I am aware of the fact that, according to the film, it was not Fusk who died during the battle in the mountains, but the cavalry under the command of the legate of the North, forced to rush into a desperate and unprepared attack by Fusk's idiotic order :)

    But the historical fact is that still in Romania there is a stone on which the names of the dead Romans are engraved, together with the indication of the commander who died in this battle - the prefect Praetor Cornelius Fusk.


    In general, Trayan and the staff of his general staff were clearly not fools and made very correct conclusions - they prepared very seriously for the upcoming campaign and started building roads, including those that are unique in engineering (I mean roads in the rocks overhanging the Danube) and picking and tactics and, what is very important, the strategy of using military formations in the war against the Dacians.


    And according to the results of the company, it is very obvious that the conclusions made by Trayan and his headquarters were correct - the use of units of maneuverable auxiliary troops not only promised, but also brought long-awaited success in the wars with Dacia in remote places of the theater of operations.
  8. DimanC
    DimanC 12 February 2016 09: 59
    0
    Pay attention to the relatively small size of the horse compared to the rider. If destries were as they were written about (2 meters each at the withers), then medieval knights were much more advantageous ...
    1. kalibr
      12 February 2016 10: 41
      0
      Exactly so, the horses of both the Greeks and the Romans were small.
  9. Bayonet
    Bayonet 12 February 2016 12: 19
    +1
    Few national leaders showed such demonstrative attention to archeology as Benito Mussolini. In the twentieth century, only Hitler and Stalin were equally zealously interested in the heritage of the past along with the Duce. Mussolini ordered the excavation of many of the ruins of ancient Rome, including the Forum and the Colosseum, as well as the complete drainage of Lake Nemi in order to raise two Roman ships from the bottom of the Caligula rule. At the same time, Mussolini not only gave the appropriate orders, but also monitored their implementation and came to the excavation sites to find out about the results. I was just lucky enough to visit Italy the year before last and see many historical monuments, with the current ruble it would not work. hi
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 12 February 2016 13: 16
      +1
      Apparently he was trying to consolidate power at the expense of national self-awareness, or maybe he was just interested in himself; there is power, why not use it in your interests. So the question of power for the sake of history or history for the sake of power moved this person.
      1. Bayonet
        Bayonet 12 February 2016 14: 35
        0
        Quote: cth; fyn
        Apparently trying to strengthen power at the expense of national identity,

        Yes, the guide said so.
        1. kalibr
          12 February 2016 21: 43
          0
          I envy! That very same year they gathered in Rimini to wave to San Marino, Venice and Rome from there. But ... we decided to always have time, that we must swim as it should (in Rimini, they say, the sea - be-eee!), Well, we waved to Cyprus. Now it will not work, that's for sure!
  10. King, just king
    King, just king 12 February 2016 12: 26
    0
    Quote: inkass_98
    Yes, we were digging out carts of the same Novotitar culture, the wooden wheels and the skeleton of the wagon were preserved, but in the end we could get only an approximate idea of ​​its appearance, there was no smell of accuracy.



    inkass_98, if it does not bother you, tell us what the wheel axles were made of and, most importantly, the wheel hubs. I was always interested in the question on which axles and bushings the ancient chariots, which are shown to us, for example, in Ben-Hur, or the same Alexander, numerous pictures, so dashingly raced.
    1. Chiropractor
      Chiropractor 12 February 2016 14: 01
      +1
      laughing
      Obviously, from the time of Troy - the axis of their Lebanese cedar, and the bushings are bronze, lubricated with olive oil. Resource - one and a half kilometers, then kapitalka. laughing

      And after the Dacians sold to Rome ball bearings from VTZ - Vladimir Tractor Plant. By the way, using balls from them using a sports slingshot, it is possible to get small game at a distance of up to 50m. Yes, and spoil the heads of the thugs. He will not break his helmet, but he will make dents on the open parts ...

      All with Friday !!!

      By the way, if a chariot (i.e., a spinning wheel on an axis) was in the time of Troy, then then there should be a potter's wheel. AND! Was he? Then the spinning wheel should be in those days. How two thousand years later?
      But did the wheels do something? Equal? This means that the bottom and the lid for the barrel should do - store supplies and transport. How about amphora? And they did not fight? Barrels are more convenient and utilitarian. Was there no forest in Greece? Well, copper was smelted, the fleets were built ... There was even a fleet in Ancient Egypt, and go in the Sahara, look for a tree for a dog to pee ...
      How many cables do you need for a ship? Kilometer? And what is the cable from? Soaked hemp / hemp and flax? And where do they grow? But how so?! ...
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 12 February 2016 21: 52
        +1
        Forest in Greece was. At least in the mountains. Theofrast wrote about this.
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 14 February 2016 03: 18
        0
        and go in the Sahara look for a tree for a dog to pee ...


        Our wise ancestors said: "Nonecha is not what it was just now." Under the pharaohs in the Sahara, sand with fire could not be found during the day. And the giraffes grazed. And around the lakes (yes, yes!) Those same forests grew.

        And all this is called in science - climate change.

        A spinning wheel was in Greece. But what does the wheel have to do with it? Or are you talking about a spinning wheel with lots of spinning parts?
    2. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 15 February 2016 13: 17
      0
      They were made of hardwood.
  11. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 12 February 2016 13: 19
    0
    Vyacheslav, what about the military doctors of Rome? I just learned about the surgeon Galen who, 2000 years ago, was able to treat cataracts and dropsy of the brain with craniotomy!
    1. Chiropractor
      Chiropractor 12 February 2016 14: 17
      +4
      about!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      but the history of medicine is generally fantastic !!!

      Not only cataracts and craniotomy were performed with a positive result!
      In ancient Greece, whose heiress was Rome, blood transfusions were performed! True, he survived about 20 percent - they did not know about blood groups, they tried to mix. Blood did not coagulate during transfusion ...
      Abdominal surgery !!! Professional runners were removed the spleen (!!!!!) so that they run faster. And they survived. And they ran faster. And what was dying faster - against the background of the then life expectancy was not noticeable. A marathon messenger is not an indicator.

      What sepsis, what tetanus, what are you talking about?

      Tool? Bronze...
      Anesthesia - with a mallet on the back of the head, so as not to break. By the way, she is still present on the scorpions ...
      Local anesthesia is some alcohol (which dilates blood vessels !!!) and a wooden or bone stick in the patient’s mouth.

      And you - medical steel, saline, ether / ice-cream / promedol / morphine. Wimps! smile
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 12 February 2016 20: 17
        +3
        Then I look at your nickname and quietly hide under the table, but I still have a tooth to heal on Monday ...
      2. kalibr
        12 February 2016 21: 39
        0
        A leather mallet was found among the surgeon’s instruments on Mary Rose, which was lifted from the water near Plymouth. And it was the 16 century.
    2. kalibr
      12 February 2016 21: 25
      0
      Unfortunately I am not a doctor and all the books I have are weapons books. Of course, I can "get" on the Internet, like everyone else, but will it be interesting to you? I'm afraid that I don't know anyone who has written about this in England. I'll try to ask, but I promise nothing.
  12. King, just king
    King, just king 12 February 2016 16: 23
    +2
    Quote: Kostoprav
    By the way, if a chariot (i.e., a spinning wheel on an axis) was in the time of Troy, then then there should be a potter's wheel. AND! Was he? Then the spinning wheel should be in those days. How two thousand years later?


    In general, when technology begins, modern historical science somehow moves away from questions aside. There is a book by Katorin Y. "The Paradoxes of Military History", I read it at a time, 15 years ago. Interestingly, outrageously! And especially Kostylev G. "Military-historical jokes" generally read.

    Um, a mallet as an anesthetic, nda ..., was part of the doctors tool kit until almost the 20th century.

    With wheels, also interesting. If the entire Roman Empire was pierced by roads built primarily for military needs, then how many spare wheels should the carts carry when moving along the cobblestone? And merchant caravans did not fly through the air.
    In modern cities. where the cobblestone pavement has been preserved, the drovers — they swear power by the hundred-story building, and they try not to go there without need.
    1. kalibr
      12 February 2016 21: 28
      0
      Rome had no cobblestone roads. There were ruts in the slabs of ... but from which I don’t remember offhand. I remember the ruts and saw their photos. That is, it was precisely the slabs on a complex foundation.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. King, just king
        King, just king 12 February 2016 21: 59
        0
        Citizen Appia Road. The cut stone. What is the fundamental difference with cobblestone?

        A picture of something is not inserted, but I can say that there is basically no difference with a cobblestone. The surface is not smooth, there are a lot of photos of Roman roads in the internet, those who wish will be convinced.
        1. Aljavad
          Aljavad 14 February 2016 03: 24
          0
          Citizen Appia Road. The cut stone. What is the fundamental difference with cobblestone?

          A picture of something is not inserted, but I can say that there is basically no difference with a cobblestone. The surface is not smooth, there are a lot of photos of Roman roads in the internet, those who wish will be convinced.


          Cobblestone is round-convex. size - approximately 15x25 cm.
          This is the past city of Rostov-on-Don.

          By the way, old-old taxi drivers (1960-70gg) told me that to ride on the cobblestones is a nice thing. Better asphalt.
  13. King, just king
    King, just king 12 February 2016 18: 16
    +1
    Quote: Bayonet
    Quote: cth; fyn
    Apparently trying to strengthen power at the expense of national identity,

    Yes, the guide said so.



    The bowler cooked at the Duce, especially when he looked at the sculptures and busts of the conquerors of the world - the Romans and then at his Italians - something swarthy, talkative, in no way drawing on the classical Romans. I had to dig and write a story.
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 12 February 2016 20: 20
      +1
      Admittedly, the Duce was smart, but unfortunately (for him, of course) is not enough.
  14. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk 12 February 2016 20: 30
    +2
    Here kill me DAK in this very place ....
    set up a column of Trajan in the 1st century AD.
    Not just a column - but the whole Forum of Trajan, which included a considerable number of buildings and structures.
    Then - in the 5th century, Rome - fell.
    Regrettably, of course.
    Then who just did not somersault in Italy.
    For the past 50 years, cars have been tumbling, making the column unusable.
    The most surprising thing is that the rest of the Forum was defeated a long time ago, even since the 5th century it was smashed.
    And the column, sort of ... a boil on the forehead - stood and stands itself. It stood for 1850 years. Unshakable. Brilliant and compelling.
    Around defeat and devastation, each tramp considers it his duty to break something and break it.
    Only one column does not encroach. None. For all 1850 years.
    Well ... 1800 years - without a hitch ... and the last 50 - kayuk.
    .
    Funny.
    1. Sweles
      Sweles 12 February 2016 20: 43
      -1
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      Well ... 1800 years - without a hitch ... and the last 50 - kayuk.
      .


      it is very, very unfortunate, but the traders need to say something to people, the environment has become worse, and people have begun to live longer, and statues have begun to live less, how can this be? The devil knows their historians ...
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 12 February 2016 21: 03
        -1
        I was a little mistaken ... when I wrote about the 1st century. Second, actually it turns out.
        Well, the discrepancy is an order of magnitude .... 100 years and TWO, almost, millennia.
        .
        And looking at the figures of the Roman military commanders, especially their loincloth armor - ... damn me or something, I saw unloading pockets around the whole belt.
        Why would the Romans have relief valves around the hips?
        Maybe it's just such pockets?
        ....
        And, vague doubts torment me that all the legionnaires cut through the segmented metal loriks .... it is impossible, with those technologies two thousand years ago, to withstand such standardization for metal. If only this foil was? Then yes.
        But with leather armor - like two fingers asphalt.
        ....
        Something with dating .... torment me doubts, torment me.
        And I’ll fall asleep ... tormented.
        Pancake.
        1. kalibr
          12 February 2016 21: 38
          0
          In vain! Everything was found, measured, metallography was carried out. There is a drawing in Connolly's book. I even have a drawing. We need to see how all this can be best given to make it interesting. I wrote to you about Michel Figuere's book "Weapons of the Romans" - a very interesting book, although without color pictures. True, the language is complicated. Translation into English. from French ... But very interesting. Photo of buckles, rivets, hooks, armor and + fine graphics. So do not worry, everything is as ... is. How did the Greeks stand up to ceramics standardization? By the way, I wrote an article about this, but sent it to the magazine ... printed. There is no "war". But it is very interesting about the technology of black and red firing. How was the temperature maintained in ovens without a thermometer? And they did it! So it is here. The aliens have nothing to do with it.
  15. King, just king
    King, just king 12 February 2016 22: 17
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    How did the Greeks stand up to ceramics standardization? By the way, I wrote an article about this, but sent it to the magazine ... printed. There is no "war". But it is very interesting about the technology of black and red firing. How was the temperature maintained in ovens without a thermometer? And they did it! So it is here. The aliens have nothing to do with it.


    If a person for several years twists on a circle pots of a certain height and volume, then in a couple of years, he will unscrew this pot with his eyes closed. And large pottery could have craftsmen for every type of pottery.
    And the temperature ... After all, an experienced blacksmith also determines the readiness of metal by eye, by color, respectively, and the ceramics firing master could determine the readiness by a certain time and firing color, as well as a baker and a steelmaker. And exposure to a certain temperature also comes with experience, how much fuel, how much and when to swing the fur, or to throw firewood. The experience was probably developed by the Pletugans in their own skin, so they learned quickly.
  16. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 15 February 2016 21: 17
    0
    Good day everyone! Yes, many have written in the comments; there is a useful, but more than some nonsense. Yes, destriers in the Middle Ages were much larger and stronger than ancient horses, which gave a lot of buns to horsemen who began to crush infantry (well, saddles, stirrup bows and compound bows).

    In general, it has long been recognized that the column of Trajan is a unique historical source. And much that is drawn there (well, excluding proportions, this is an obvious technical bloop) is generally found by archaeologists.

    The only question is on Sarmatian scaly armor. Yes, the cavalry of the Sarmatians was an Asian style, therefore, armed differently and better than the Romans. At that time, they still beat her, but then they had to use the cataphracts and clienarians themselves. There are also 2 problems: full horse armor - first of all a wildly expensive thing available only to the elite and they were not found (although there are some segments, and found in the same Palmyra and Syria armor of the horses of the Middle Eastern cataphracts, apparently Parthian). Secondly, there is a problem with this. Well, why really tails then close? Apparently because of the extremely small number of such performers, the Columns of Traian simply did not see the Sarmatian horse armor in the form of trophies, only briefly and briefly, therefore, so they portrayed ...
  17. Stilet
    Stilet 16 December 2016 17: 52
    0
    The Trajan’s column is a triumphant rendition of the triumph of Roman weapons and in this regard there is a deliberate slight distortion of images (somehow reduced shields of Roman warriors, and chained tails of Sarmatian horses). This inspires a person inspecting the column the idea of ​​the impossibility of resistance to Rome, if such opponents chained with armor from head to toe were defeated, then others have nothing to think across. There was no television then, but visually affected, and it affects very strongly. A strong informational message shows the power of the Roman army, and the inevitability of the defeat of any opponents of the Romans, and the triumph of the victors, and the consequences of the defeat of the losing side. There is something to learn.