Military Review

How Alexander Yaroslavich defeated the German knights

96
It should be noted that in 1240, at the same time as the Swedish invasion, the invasion of the Novgorod-Pskov lands of the Knights of the Teutonic Order began. Taking advantage of the distraction of the Russian troops to fight the Swedes, in 1240, they captured the cities of Izborsk and Pskov and began to move towards Novgorod.


In 1240, the Livonian knights at the head of military units from the Russian cities of Yuriev and Medvezhya Golova, previously subordinated to them, launched an offensive against Pskov land. The ally of the Crusaders was the Russian prince Yaroslav Vladimirovich, who was once driven out of Pskov. First, the knights took the Pskov border fortress Izborsk. Towards the enemy hastily moved the Pskov militia. However, it was broken. Pskov voivode Gavrila Borislavich was killed, many Pskovs fell, others were captured, and others fled. In the footsteps of the retreating Pskovs, the German knights broke into the Pskov Posad, but they could not take a strong stone fortress that had repeatedly stopped the enemy. Then the traitors came to the aid of the conquerors from the number of boyars headed by posadnik Tverdiloy Ivankovich. They let 1240 of the year into the Pskov Krom (Kremlin) of the Germans in September. Part of the Pskov boyars, unhappy with this decision, fled with their families to Novgorod.

Thus, the quarrel with Prince Alexander Yaroslavich adversely affected the defense capability of Veliky Novgorod. Having made Pskov and Izborsk their bases, the Livonian knights in the winter of 1240 - 1241. invaded the Novgorod possessions of Chud and Vod, devastated them, besieged the inhabitants with tribute. After the seizure of the Pskov lands, the knights of the crusaders began to systematically strengthen themselves in the occupied territories. This was their usual tactic: on the territory seized from a hostile people, the Western knights immediately cost outposts, fortifications, castles and fortresses, in order to continue the offensive against them. On the steep and rocky mountain in the Koporye graveyard, they built an order's castle with high and strong walls, which became the basis for further progress to the east. Shortly thereafter, the Crusaders captured Tesovo, an important trading point in the Novgorod land, and from there it was already within reach of Novgorod. In the north, the knights reached Luga and became impudent to the point that they robbed on the roads in 30 versts from Novgorod. Simultaneously with the knights, though quite independently of them, Lithuanians began to make raids in the Novgorod parish. They used the weakening of Novgorod Russia and plundered the Russian lands.

It is clear that the people of Novgorod were alarmed. The Order was a powerful and formidable force that inexorably absorbed the eastern lands, turning the local population to the western version of Christianity with fire and sword. In the face of an imminent threat, simple Novgorodians forced the boyar “lord” to call Prince Alexander for help. Novgorod's ruler Spiridon himself went to Pereslavl, who asked the prince to forget the previous offenses and to lead the Novgorod troops against the German knights. Alexander returned to Novgorod, where he was greeted by popular triumph.

In 1241, Prince of Novgorod Alexander Yaroslavich Nevsky with the prince's retinue and militia from Novgorod, Ladozhan, Izhora and Karelia stormed the Koporye fortress and freed the Vody land of Veliky Novgorod from the influence of the Order on the coast of the Gulf of Finland. The fortress was razed, the captured knights were sent hostage to Novgorod, and the traitors who served them were hanged. Now there was the task of liberating Pskov. However, to conduct further struggle with a strong enemy, the capabilities of the formed army were not enough, and Prince Alexander called upon the brother of Prince Andrei Yaroslavich with his retinue, Vladimir residents and Suzdalians.

Novgorod-Vladimir army made a campaign in the liberation of Pskov in the winter of 1241-1242 of the year. Alexander Yaroslavich acted as always swiftly. The Russian army forced march came to the nearest approaches to the city and cut off all the roads in Livonia. There was no long siege, followed by the assault on a strong fortress. Knightly garrison could not withstand the fierce onslaught of Russian soldiers and was defeated, those who survived, laid down weapon. Pskov boyars traitors were executed. Then released and Izborsk. Thus, the combined Russian army liberated the cities of Pskov and Izborsk from the crusaders.

The fall of a powerful fortress with a strong garrison was a great surprise for the leadership of the Livonian Order. In the meantime, Alexander Nevsky transferred the fighting to the land of the Estonian tribe, conquered by the Order's brothers. The Russian commander pursued one goal - to force the enemy to go beyond the walls of knightly castles into an open field for a decisive battle. And even before the arrival of reinforcements from the German states. Such a calculation was justified.

Thus, Alexander repulsed the territories seized by the crusaders. However, the struggle was not over yet, as the Order retained its living force. There was a decisive battle that was to determine the outcome of the war. Both warring parties began to prepare for the decisive battle and announced a new collection of troops. The Russian army gathered in liberated Pskov, and the Teutonic and Livonian knights in Dorpat-Yuryev. Victory in the war decided the fate of North-Western Russia.


Battle on the Ice. Artist V.A. Serov

Battle on the Ice

The Master of the Order, the Bishops of Dorpat, Riga and Ezel, united all the military forces they had for the war with Veliky Novgorod. The Livonian knights and their vassals, the knights of the bishops and the personal units of the Catholic bishops of the Baltic states, the Danish knights arose from their beginning. Arrived knights adventurers, mercenaries. As auxiliary troops, Estonians, Livs, and foot soldiers from other nations enslaved by German conquerors were forcibly recruited. In the spring of 1242, the army of the knights of the crusaders, consisting of knightly cavalry and infantry (knights) from Livs, conquered by the Chudi order, and others, moved to Russia. 12 thousand knight army led by Vice-Master of the Teutonic Order A. von Velven. The Russian army consisted of 15-17 thousand people.

It is worth remembering that the knights themselves were relatively few. But each knight led the so-called. spear "- a tactical unit, a small squad, which consisted of the knight himself, his squires, bodyguards, swordsmen, spearmen, archers and servants. As a rule, the richer was the knight, the more soldiers he numbered his “spear”.

Prince Alexander Yaroslavich led the Russian army along the coast of Pskov Lake "with care." A large detachment of light cavalry under the command of Domash Tverdislavich and the governor of Tver, Kerbet, was sent forward. It was necessary to find out where the main forces of the Livonian Order are and what route they will take to Novgorod. Near the Estonian village of Hammast (Mooste), the Russian “watchman” collided with the main forces of the Livonian knights. There was a stubborn battle in which the Russian detachment was defeated and went to his own. Now the prince could say with certainty that the enemy would launch an invasion through the ice of Lake Peipsi. Alexander decided to take the battle there.

Alexander Yaroslavich decided to give a general battle in the most favorable conditions for him. Prince Novgorodsky occupied the narrow strait between the Peipsi and Pskov lakes with its shelves. This position was very successful. Crusaders, passing on the frozen river r. Emaygi to the lake, could then go to Novgorod bypassing Lake Peipsi to the north, or Pskov - along the western coast of the Pskov lake to the south. In each of these cases, the Russian prince could intercept the enemy, moving along the eastern coast of the lakes. If the knights decided to act directly and tried to overcome the strait in the narrowest place, such as the Warm Lake, then they would directly encounter Novgorod-Vladimir troops.

According to the classical version, the decisive battle between the Russian troops and the Crusaders occurred near the Voroniy Stone, adjacent to the eastern shore of the narrow southern part of Lake Peipsi. The selected position to the maximum extent took into account all the favorable geographical features of the area and put them in the service of the Russian commander. Behind our troops, there was a steep bank overgrown with dense forest, which excluded the possibility of bypassing enemy cavalry. The right flank was protected by a water zone called Sigovitsa. Here, due to some features of the flow and a large number of keys, the ice was very fragile. Local residents knew about it and, undoubtedly, informed Alexander. Finally, the left flank was protected by a high coastal cape, from where a wide panorama was opened up to the opposite shore.

How Alexander Yaroslavich defeated the German knights

Russian army goes to Lake Peipsi. Chronicle miniature

Taking into account the peculiarity of the order tactics, when the knights, relying on the invincibility of their horse-drawn "armored fist", usually carried out a frontal attack with a wedge called "pig" in Russia, Alexander Nevsky placed his army on the eastern shore of Lake Peipsi. The location of the troops was traditional for Russia: the “forehead” (middle regiment) and the regiments of the left and right hands. Ahead stood the archers (advanced regiment), who were supposed to upset the enemy’s order at the beginning of the battle and weaken the very first terrible onslaught of the knights. The peculiarity was that Alexander decided to weaken the center of the military structure of the Russian army and strengthen the regiments of the right and left hands, the prince's cavalry divided into two units and positioned them on the flanks behind the infantry. Behind the "man" (regiment of the battle formation center) there was a reserve, a prince's squad. Thus, Alexander planned to tie up the enemy with a battle in the center, and when the knights got bogged down, strike covering blows from the flanks and bypass from the rear.




Source: Bloodless L. Atlas of maps and schemes for the Russian military stories

5 April 1242. With the rising of the sun the knightly wedge moved to the offensive. Russian archers met the enemy with a shower of arrows. Russian heavy bows were terrible weapons and caused the enemy serious damage. However, the knight's wedge continued the attack. Gradually, the archers retreated to the ranks of the infantry and finally merged with it in a single unit. Knights got the idea of ​​the Novgorod foot rati. Began a fierce and bloody slashing. After the first ram strike with spears, swords, axes, maces, klevtsy, war hammers, etc. went into action. Knights broke through the weakened Russian center. About this critical episode for the Russian troops, the chronicler says: "And the Germans and the people are talking pigs through the shelves."

The Crusaders were ready to triumph, but the Germans rejoiced early. Instead of space for maneuver, they saw in front of them an invincible shore for the cavalry. And the remnants of a large regiment died, but they continued a fierce battle, weakening the enemy. At this time, both wings of the Russian army fell to the knight’s left and right, and an electoral squad of Prince Alexander struck from the rear, making a roundabout maneuver. “And by the way that evil was cut off, it was great by Germans and people, and a snow pipe from spears of breaking, and a sound from a sword section, and you would not see ice covered with blood.”

The fierce battle continued. But in the battle there was a turning point in favor of the Russian rati. Knightly army surrounded, cramped and began to break his order. The Novgorodians, surrounded and knocked down by knights, were dragged with horses by hooks. Horses broke legs, cut the veins. Hurried crusader, chained in heavy armor, could not resist pedestrian Russian soldiers. The case was completed with axes and other chopping and crushing weapons.

As a result, the battle ended in complete victory for the Russian army. The hired infantry (bollards) and the surviving knights ran. Part of the knightly troops were driven by Russian warriors to Sigovitsa. Fragile ice could not stand it and broke under the weight of crusaders and their horses chained in armor. The knights went under the ice, and there was no escape for them.


Battle on the Ice. V.M. Nazaruk

Battle results

So suffered a cruel defeat and a second campaign against the Rus crusaders. The Livonian Rhymed Chronicle claims that 20 knight brothers were killed in the Battle of the Ice and 6 were captured. The Chronicle of the Teutonic Order "Die jungere Hochmeisterchronik" reports about the death of the knights brothers 70. These losses do not take into account the fallen secular knights and other order warriors. In the First Novgorod Chronicle, the losses of the opponents of the Russians are presented as follows: “and ... the fall of the Beschtisla, and Nѣmets 400, and 50 by the hands of Yash and brought to Novgorod”. At the ceremonial entry of the prince into Pskov (according to other sources in Novgorod), the German "deliberate voevods" of the 50 German walked after the horse of Alexander Nevsky. It is clear that the losses of ordinary warriors, bollards, dependent militias from Finnish tribes were much higher. Russian losses are unknown.

The defeat in the battle on Lake Peipsi forced the Livonian Order to ask for peace: “What we went by the sword ... from that all retreat; how many have your people taken captive, by that we are exchanged: we will let yours go, but you will let ours go. " For the city of Yuriev (Dorpat), the Order pledged to pay Novgorod "Yuryev's tribute". Under a peace treaty concluded several months later, the Order abandoned all claims to Russian lands and returned the territories seized earlier. Thanks to decisive military victories, the crusaders suffered heavy losses, and the Order lost its strike power. For some time, the combat potential of the Order was weakened. It was only after 10 that the knights attempted to retake Pskov.

Thus, Alexander Yaroslavich stopped the broad crusader aggression to the western borders of Russia. Russian prince consistently defeated the Swedes and German knights. It must be said that although the war 1240-1242. did not become the last between Novgorod and the Order, but their borders in the Baltic did not undergo noticeable changes for three centuries - until the end of the XV century.

As the historian V.P. Pashuto noted: “... Victory on Lake Peipsi — the Ice Battle — was of tremendous significance for all of Russia and its associated peoples; she saved them from the cruel alien yoke. For the first time, the predatory "onslaught on the East" of the German rulers, which had been going on for more than one century, was put to the limit.


Battle on the Ice. Miniature of the Facial Chronicle, mid-XVI century

In the Russian Federation, the date of victory in the Ice massacre is immortalized as the Day of Military Glory of Russia - the Day of Victory of Russian soldiers of Prince Alexander Nevsky over the German knights on Lake Peipsi. In the Federal Law of March 13 1995-FZ “On the days of military glory (victory days) of Russia”, 32 days are added to the real day of the April 5 battle, 13 is April 18, which is 1242 April, old style, is celebrated on April 5, corresponding to it in a new style at the present time (XX-XXI centuries). Although the difference between the old (Julian) and the new (Gregorian) style in the XIII century would be 18 days.

In 1992, on the territory of the village of Kobylya Gorodishche, Gdovskiy district, in a place as close as possible to the intended site of the Battle on the Ice, a bronze monument to Alexander Nevsky was erected near the church of the Archangel Michael. The monument to the Alexander Nevsky brigade was installed in 1993 on Mount Sokolikh in Pskov.


Picture V.A. Serov "Alexander Nevsky's Entry to Pskov"

Alexander defeats Lithuania

In subsequent years, peace and calm reigned in the Swedish-Novgorod and Novgorod-Order relations. The Swedish and German knights licked their wounds. But the Lithuanian tribes, still scattered, but realizing their strength after 1236, when 22 in September at the battle of Saul (Šiauliai) the swordtails were defeated by the Lithuanians (in this battle Magister Volguin von Namburg (Volkvin von Wintertstatten) and most of the knights brothers fell) , they increased the raids on all the lands adjacent to them, including the Novgorod limits. These raids pursued purely predatory goals and caused legitimate hatred. Russian princes responded retaliatory punitive campaigns.

Soon after the Battle of the Ice, the winner of Western knighthood again had to go on a campaign. Lithuanian cavalry units began to "fight" the Novgorod parish, ruining the border rural areas. Prince Alexander Yaroslavich immediately assembled a army and smashed seven Lithuanian troops into the border area with swift strikes. The fight against the raiders was carried out with great skill - “a lot of Lithuanian princes were beaten up or taken prisoner”.

At the end of 1245, the army, which was headed by eight Lithuanian princes, passed to Bezhetsk and Torzhok. The inhabitants of Torzhok, headed by Prince Yaroslav Vladimirovich, came out against Lithuania, but were defeated. The Lithuanians, capturing a large full and other booty, turned home. However, the militia of the north-western regions of the Vladimir-Suzdal principality - Tverichi and Dmitrovtsy defeated the Lithuanians near Toropets. Lithuanians shut up in the city. Prince Alexander Nevsky came here with the people of Novgorod. Toropets was taken by storm, and all Lithuanians, including princes, were exterminated. All Russian captives were released.

Under the walls of Toropets, Alexander again broke up with the Novgorodians in assessing further actions. He proposed to continue the campaign and punish the discoveries. Novgorod militia with posadnik and tysyatskimi, vladychin regiment led by the archbishop went home. Alexander with his retinue at the beginning of 1246 went through the Smolensk land to the Lithuanian borders, attacked the Lithuanian troops near Zizic and defeated them.

As a result, the Lithuanian princes calmed down for a while. For the next several years, the Lithuanians did not dare to attack Alexander’s possessions. Thus, Alexander Yaroslavich triumphantly won the “small defensive war” with neighboring Lithuania, while not waging aggressive wars. On the borders of the Novgorod and Pskov lands there was a lull.



To be continued ...

1 application. Novgorod first chronicle of the senior and junior izvodov. M.-L., 1950.

In addition, 6750 [1242]. According to Prince Oleksandr from Novgorod and his brother Andre'em and from lower land to Chudsky land on Nyomtsi and Zaya, and to Plskov; and drive out Prince Plskov, seize N´mtsi and Chud, and shack off the flood in Novgorod, and go on Chud himself. And as if on earth, put half into it in prosperity; and Domash Tverdislavich and Kerbet, by way of rozgon, and the middle of Nautsi and Chud by the bridge, and that; and ubisha that Domash, the brother of the land, my husband is honest, and i'm beating him, and iznim with my hands izimash, and bringing a prince to the prince in the polk, the prince will sleep at the lake, n'amtsi and Chüd go on them. Prince Uzleksandr and Novgorod, put a regiment on Chudsky Lakes, on Uzmen, at Voron'ya Kameni; and na hasha for half a year and chyud and run through the pig through half a polkah, and bye svocha that great ntsmtsem and chyudi. God and saint Sophia and the holy martyr Boris and Gleb, for the sake of Novgorod, shed their blood, for the saints with the help of great prayers to the help of prince Alexander; and NЂmtsi tu padosha, and Chüd dasha splashing; and, gonyache, bisha ih on 7-mi across the ice to Subolichskogo shore; and pada Chyudi besshisla, and Nomets 400, and 50 with the hands of Yash and brought to Novgorod. And Bishassya april in 5, in memory of the holy martyr Claudius, to the praise of the holy Mother of God, on Saturday. I send the same letter with a nod: “Bez, the prince of Eesma, came down to Vod, Luga, Pskov, Lotygolu kachem, of all retreat; and that the ezma have withdrawn your husbands, but let us rose: we will let yours go, and you will let ours go ”; and tal Plskovskaya empty and die. The same prince Yaroslav Vsevolodich called the Tsar Tatarsk Batu, the ideal for him in the Horde.

2 application. Konstantin Simonov. Battle on the Ice (excerpt from the poem)

On blue and wet
Cracked ice
At six thousand seven hundred and fifty
From the creation of the year,
Saturday, April 5th
Raw dawn at times
Advanced reviewed
The Germans are a dark build.

On the caps there are feathers of funny birds,
On helmets - horse tails.
Above them on heavy shafts
Black crosses swung.
Squires behind proudly
They brought family shields,
On them coat of arms bear muzzle,
Weapons, towers and flowers ...

... Prince before the Russian regiments
The horse turned from the spread,
Hands bound in steel
Under the clouds angrily poked.
"May God judge us with the Germans
Without delay here on the ice
With us swords, and come what may,
Let's help God's judgment! ”
The prince rode to the coastal cliffs.
Scrambled on them with difficulty,
He found a tall ledge
Where you can see everything around.
And looked around. Somewhere in the back,
Among the trees and stones
His shelves stand in wait,
Keeping horses on a leash.
And ahead, on ringing ice floes
Thundering heavy scales,
Livonians go a formidable wedge -
Pig iron head.
It was the first onslaught of the Germans terrible.
In the infantry Russian angle,
Two rows of equestrian towers
They got their way through.
As in a storm angry lambs,
Among the German shishakov
White shirts flashed,
Mutton hats for men.
In shirts washable body,
Tulups on the ground throwing,
They rushed into a deadly battle,
Wide open the gate.
It's easier to beat the enemy with a flourish,
And if you have to die,
So better clean shirt
His blood to mess.
They are with open eyes
On the Germans were bare breasts,
To the bone fingers slitting,
Bent spears to the ground.
And where the spears crouched,
They desperately slaughter
Through the system of German hacked
Shoulder to shoulder, back to back ...

... people, horses, have already mixed
Swords, axes, axes,
And the prince is still calm
I watched the battle from the mountain ...

... And just waiting for the Livonians,
Having mixed up the ranks, they were drawn into battle,
He, flashing his sword in the sun,
He led the squad for a.
Raising swords of Russian steel,
Bending the spear shaft,
From the forest with a cry flew
Novogorodskie shelves.
On the ice flew with a clank, with thunder,
By shaggy manes leaning;
And the first on a huge horse
The prince entered the German formation.
And, retreating before the prince,
Throwing spears and shields
The Germans fell down from their horses to the ground
Having lifted the iron fingers.
The bay horses were hot,
From under the hooves heaved dust
Bodies over the snow dragged
Stuck in narrow stirrups.
It was a mess
Iron, blood and water.
In place of knight squads
There were blood marks.
Some were lying drowning
In icy bloody water,
Others rushed away, crouching,
Cowardly spur horses.
Under them the horses were drowning
Behind them, the ice rose,
Their stirrups to the bottom pulled
They did not give the shell to swim.
Brelo under glances oblique
A lot of caught gentlemen
First time bare heels
Diligently slapping on the ice.
And the prince, barely cooling off from the landfill,
From under the arm already watched
Like the rest of the fugitives pathetic
To the Livonian lands left.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Great Russian Prince Alexander Yaroslavich

“Whoever comes to us with a sword, will die by the sword.” That was where the Russian land stood and stands! ”
How Alexander Yaroslavich defeated the Swedish knights
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  1. Koshak
    Koshak 5 February 2016 06: 25
    +7
    More from the poem:

    Under us is ice, above us is sky
    our cities are behind us.
    No forest, no land, no bread
    never take them (the crusaders) again.
    ....
    Angle forward, from everyone especially,
    dressed in fur coats, in Armenians,
    stood dark with malice
    Pskov walking regiments.
    Their Germans snatched with iron,
    stole their children and wives
    their yard is looted, cattle are cut,
    sowing trampled, the house burned down.
    Their prince set in the middle,
    so that the first take pressure.
    Reliable in black age
    peasant forged ax!
  2. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b 5 February 2016 06: 56
    10
    Interesting stuff! Thanks to the author!
    1. Alexey-74
      Alexey-74 5 February 2016 12: 47
      0
      I join, thanks to the author, did not know about the details with the Lithuanian tribes ....
  3. Sergey Sitnikov
    Sergey Sitnikov 5 February 2016 07: 01
    +1
    Put + for the work of the author. However, I myself adhere to the version about a 2-3 meter snowdrift behind the back of the middle regiment - how did the knights sitting on their horses not see the "high wooded shore"?
    But the snow in winter in Russia and on the right and left and under the feet and in front and))) for a long time
    1. Scraptor
      Scraptor 5 February 2016 07: 23
      0
      in the outpost of dusted sleds they smashed which stood behind a regiment
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 5 February 2016 07: 51
        -1
        And what record confirms this?
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 5 February 2016 13: 08
          -1
          the oral tradition of the Mongols, so happy?

          And to think for yourself about the high steep wooded shore which was not visible behind the peaks, and that carts are needed in the train in the summer and sleighs in the winter?
    2. alex-cn
      alex-cn 5 February 2016 07: 30
      0
      If everything is covered with snow, then the cliff may not be noticed (natural disguise).
    3. kalibr
      kalibr 5 February 2016 07: 50
      +1
      But what about the message of the Livonian Chronicle - "the dead fell into the grass"?
      1. igordok
        igordok 5 February 2016 08: 07
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        But what about the message of the Livonian Chronicle - "the dead fell into the grass"?

        I suppose there was grass, there was ice. The shores of Lake Peipsi are very swampy; falling under the ice in a swamp is even easier than on lake ice. Partially bogged down in a swamp, a knight is of little capacity and could easily be captured.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 5 February 2016 08: 20
          +1
          Do you know that the lake is "knee-deep" both then and now? This was found out by the expedition of the USSR Academy of Sciences back in 1961-62. during an integrated expedition. And they did not find the armor of the drowned ... It was frozen to the bottom!
          1. igordok
            igordok 5 February 2016 08: 47
            +4
            Quote: kalibr
            Do you know that the lake is "knee-deep" both then and now?

            I don’t know. I live in Pskov. Pskov Lake is really knee-deep max-xnumxm. Peipsi deeper - max 12m. But the Warm Lake where, according to myths, the Battle of Ice took place, the deepest - 13 m.
            My opinion was that the Battle of the Ice took place on the eastern shore of Lake Peipsi. And the episode with ice is, or an attempt to retreat the knights across the lake, or, as mentioned above, a battle on the ice of coastal swamps.
      2. Scraptor
        Scraptor 5 February 2016 13: 12
        0
        Off a cliff? In hoarfrost powdery and invisible point blank?

        Or did the unkilled first fight at full gallop with their heads up the wall, become killed and immediately fall there, and the combatants stood nervously smoking on the sidelines?
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 5 February 2016 07: 23
    10
    In the face of the imminent threat, ordinary Novgorodians forced the boyar "gentlemen"... The boyar "gentlemen" ... did not mind to lie under the knights ... in the "EU" then ... gentlemen liberals ...
    1. Voice of the Mind
      Voice of the Mind 5 February 2016 11: 56
      -7
      Quote: parusnik
      The boyar "gentlemen" ... did not mind to lie under the knights ... in the "EU" then ... gentlemen, liberals ...

      Under the Tatars, of course, better.
      I foresee objections, the Tatars were a force.
      An example of a successful confrontation with the Tatars is the Principality of Polotsk or Galich. Danila Galitsky even received a rex patrimon from the Pope, but the population remained Orthodox
      1. Rivares
        Rivares 5 February 2016 13: 11
        +6
        Quote: Voice of Mind
        An example of a successful confrontation with the Tatars is the Principality of Polotsk or Galich. Danila Galitsky even received a rex patrimon from the Pope, but the population remained Orthodox

        Isn't this the type that he threw other princes in the battle of Kalka, dumped in Galich and took advantage of the deaths of those whom he threw in battle, sat on the Kiev prince, then licked the pope ... He’s still a hero of Galitsky ...
        1. Vladislav 73
          Vladislav 73 5 February 2016 19: 03
          +2
          Quote: Rivares
          Quote: Voice of Mind
          An example of a successful confrontation with the Tatars is the Principality of Polotsk or Galich. Danila Galitsky even received a rex patrimon from the Pope, but the population remained Orthodox

          Isn't this the type that he threw other princes in the battle of Kalka, dumped in Galich and took advantage of the deaths of those whom he threw in battle, sat on the Kiev prince, then licked the pope ... He’s still a hero of Galitsky ...

          In the battle of Kalka, Daniil Romanovich Volynsky Together with his father-in-law Mstislav Mstislavovich Udatny (Udatny) managed to escape in time, therefore he did not share the fate of other princes. For Galich and Kiev, even during the Tatar-Mughal invasion, there was a real meat grinder, but at the end - Daniil united Galicia-Volyn Rus. And the so-called "successful confrontation with the Tatars" is something that must be told in Ukraine, they love fairy tales. But in reality, in 1245-46, Daniel made a trip to Sarai and recognized his dependence on the Golden Horde, further, Kiev was already disposed of according to the khan's label, and not according to Daniel's "Wishlist". Innocent 4 gave Daniel a crown in exchange for Catholicization. They proclaimed a crusade against the Horde. But the next year (1255), the new Pope Alexander 4 threw Daniel, set Lithuania on him So it was Rex with the title and the crown. And the new Khan Berke coolly took over everyone, and Daniel and his successors paid tribute, and participated in the campaigns of the Horde as cute. History must be taught, not fables!
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 5 February 2016 15: 59
        0
        An example of a successful confrontation with the Tatars - the Principality of Polotsk - in the XIII century, the Polotsk, Vitebsk, Drutsk and Minsk principalities were absorbed by the new feudal formation - the Lithuanian Grand Principality, in which, however, Russian laws acted and Russian dominated ... Is this an example of successful opposition to the Tatars? Danila Galitsky even rex patrimon from the pope received... Well, what about the further fate of the Principality of Galicia? .. Entry into the European Union of that time .. Commonwealth? Danilo became king .. and what under his banners did knights from Europe fight the Tatars? .. Yes, it was .. Danilo beat the Tatars .. and how it ended, did Great Galician Russia arise 100 years later?
        1. Voice of the Mind
          Voice of the Mind 5 February 2016 17: 47
          -10 qualifying.
          Well, if you consider the loss of statehood by 300 years a victory, then yes Alexander Nevsky is your hero.
          1. Vladislav 73
            Vladislav 73 5 February 2016 20: 22
            +2
            You should change your nickname ... As options-the Voice of the Liberal, the Echo of Madness, Vidlunnya Kiev ... Estonian "Svidomo" Russophobe Weller with twisting the facts to prove it is strong! Or Before him tovarisch speaks, just forgot to voice his surname ... calmly, so subtly manipulates, interprets the facts, and you won't dig into who is not in the subject ... For example, in 1204 the crusaders took Constantinople, and that is why it turns out that the Russians call the khans tsars? Like, the royal title is vacant. True, the Byzantine Empire is already was restored in 1261, and before that its successor was the Nicene Empire, but what liberal cares about the truth? In light of these figures, when did the invasion of Russia begin? When exactly was the dependence of the Russian principalities on the Horde khans actually established? By the way, which khan was the first to be called Not a single answer in your Russophobic video, no specifics, emotions, distortion of facts and Russia-tse Ukraine!
            1. Voice of the Mind
              Voice of the Mind 5 February 2016 21: 00
              -4
              Quote: Vladislav 73
              You would have to change your nickname ... As options are the Voice of the Liberal, the Echo of Madness, the Vidlunnya Kiiva ...

              don’t scream like that) You are too pathetic in labeling and categorical in describing events 800 years ago.
              Any sane person understands that To any question, there are several different answers. The fact that some sort of "svidomit" before the video headband hung Rus is Ukraine, so that's why he svidomo, hardly even watched the video to the end.
              Here, for example, is a version from Dugin, more dualistic, just about Lithuanian Russia and Moscow Russia
              1. Vladislav 73
                Vladislav 73 5 February 2016 23: 53
                +2
                Well, are you so rude? Squealing ... It's not good! Change your nickname (I did not categorically offer a couple of options, why did you take it that way?), Then no one will even argue, everything will be clear to everyone. Well, this is so, by the way. Now in essence.If you offer several versions of the historical path of Russia at once, from Echo of Moscow, Weller, do not understand anyone to Dugin, and at the same time, if you yourself have nothing to say except empty quotes and epithets, then any sane person understands that there is There is nothing to talk about. I'm here with names, numbers, facts ... and you have nothing to say but "squeal". Listen to Echo of Moscow, I'll manage somehow!
          2. Estrendor
            Estrendor 6 February 2016 03: 58
            +1
            Alexander Nevsky fought the threat of the West, and the invasion of the Horde was long before his birth. Do not confuse warm with soft.
          3. Molot1979
            Molot1979 26 October 2016 05: 54
            0
            Then let's have your own version of a winning strategy for Russia in the 13th century. Just two facts to start with. Northeastern Russia, which had gone under the Mongols, lost its independence for 250 years. Galician Russia, which decided to fight with the help of Europe, was completely erased from reality. That kind of hints at the correct line of behavior. As for Danila Galitsky, his struggle with the Tatars is a reflection of the raid of Kuremsa, with which there was only an insignificant part of the Mongol force. And Burunday came with a serious army, and "King Daniel" was flown around. He merged in full and did not even dare to fart in the direction of the Mongols, paying tribute and breaking the fortress, which the Tatars demanded. And not a single knight from Europe came to the rescue. As for the Polotsk principality, Batu simply did not reach it. This is a great achievement. We won without fighting, because we were like the Elusive Joe, who is elusive only because no one needs it. If we are to give examples of successful struggle, then this is Smolensk, which fought back behind the swamps. There were at least real battles. So you would still have to change your nickname, because the cat cried out of his mind.
        2. Vladislav 73
          Vladislav 73 5 February 2016 19: 30
          +3
          As now, the then "European Union" divorced the East European "aborigine" as a sucker, for "glass beads" (crown and title) and virtual help demanded body and soul with giblets (Catholicization). But since the Horde considered these lands theirs, so that to discourage the tributary from the bad thoughts of breaking away, Khan Berke forced the Galicia-Volyn princes to participate in joint campaigns to Lithuania (1258) and Poland (1259-60, they took Sandomierz) and to tear down several fortifications (well, just in case).
  5. qwert
    qwert 5 February 2016 07: 27
    +4
    Quote: parusnik
    .. The boyar "gentlemen" .. did not mind to lie under the knights ... in the "EU" then still aspired ... gentlemen liberals ...

    You are burning))))
  6. kalibr
    kalibr 5 February 2016 07: 28
    -1
    A hasty crusader, shackled in heavy armor, could not resist the foot of the Russian soldiers. The case was completed by axes and other chopping and crushing weapons.

    As a result, the battle ended in complete victory for the Russian army. The hired infantry (bollards) and the surviving knights ran. Part of the knightly troops were driven by Russian warriors to Sigovitsa. Fragile ice could not stand it and broke under the weight of crusaders and their horses chained in armor. The knights went under the ice, and there was no escape for them.
    Complete nonsense!
    So, the first ignoramus was marked with a minus. I wonder how many more will there be? At 20.23 5.02. there are already 6 of them, but 7 are normal! Normal leads! On 22.11 the "utopians" are leading. Well, I want the enemies to gorge themselves on water! And they were "chained"! 22.50 - ignorance wins!

    Even the Stalinist propagandists in the PRAVDA newspaper of April 5, 1942 did not dare to write such a thing! The site had my article with the text from the chronicles, where everything is understood. In the comments to the author's previous opus, a speech by Klim Zhukov was placed, where he analyzed all these myths. An article has just been published in the next issue of Voprosy istorii magazine, where all this mythology is also analyzed. But no. Again "drowned". How long will people write complete nonsense and replace history with fairy tales ?!
    1. igordok
      igordok 5 February 2016 07: 52
      +6
      Quote: kalibr
      In the comments to the author’s last opus, Klim Zhukov’s speech was placed, where he analyzed all these myths.

      1. kalibr
        kalibr 5 February 2016 08: 20
        +1
        What good fellow you are for posting it !!!
        1. igordok
          igordok 5 February 2016 08: 52
          +1
          In general, I agree with the opinion of Klim Zhukov.
    2. Alexey-74
      Alexey-74 5 February 2016 12: 53
      +2
      Caliber, you so zealously prove, as if you yourself participated in the battle .....
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 5 February 2016 16: 35
        -1
        I do not like ignoramuses, I do not like fanatics, and am based only on facts. Check out my article on this here, by profile.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Proxima
      Proxima 5 February 2016 21: 48
      +4
      Quote: kalibr
      The knights walked under the ice, and there was no escape for them. [/ I] Complete Nonsense! How long will people write complete nonsense and replace the story with fairy tales ?!

      As a writing author, are you not ashamed to write this? Respect other people's work! Where is your "corporate ethics ?! Well, I read your article. That's exactly what I consider to be nonsense. There are many ambitions in the article. The shift of emphasis, under the sauce of" fried facts "that will" turn history "- are obscenely many. a cheap unprofessional pamphlet.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 5 February 2016 22: 07
        0
        And you, in fact, are able to understand what is written? All chronicles were read, the works of the expedition of the Russian Academy of Sciences 1961-62 of the year, the work of Nesterenko in the journal VI. I can’t respect the absurdities!
        1. Proxima
          Proxima 6 February 2016 00: 06
          +1
          Quote: kalibr
          And you, in fact, are able to understand what is written? All chronicles were read, the works of the expedition of the Russian Academy of Sciences 1961-62 of the year, the work of Nesterenko in the journal VI. I can’t respect the absurdities!

          Dear Vyacheslav. Do not hide behind chronicles as a shield. The chronicles were written by people like you, they also need to be compared and analyzed. I would like to draw your attention to the strongly shifted emphasis in your article about whether the knights drowned on Lake Peipsi or not. This question did not even bother contemporaries. Meaning? A convincing victory was won, but who was hacked to death there or who simply drowned - it does not matter! The drowning knight is a typical "attribute" of the showdown between "them" and Northwest Russia. Think for yourself, the battlefields in those landshawts are hard to find. Therefore, we tried to find a field for "showdowns" - frozen floodplains of rivers, bays of lakes, etc. But they tried to do this in the spring, when the bulk of the snow had already blown off. But there is a risk of falling through the ice. And such showdowns took place from about the 13th to the 16th century. What you "exposed" in your little article is UNCLEAR!
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 6 February 2016 06: 32
            0
            Speculation. Of which, by the way, is your answer: "The sinking knight is a typical" attribute "of the showdown between" them "and North-West Russia" - by which you can confirm that this is a typical attribute. Do you know the difference between singular and general? And it is you who shift the emphasis - "it doesn't matter". And to the ancients it was important to us too. I don't want to eat fables, is it really incomprehensible. Or do you like any fable, if only a convincing victory was won in it?
  7. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 5 February 2016 07: 33
    -2
    I would not say that a dismounted knight could not fight off the Russian warrior if he managed to get up after he was pulled off his horse to take a saddle sword and throw off the top helm (according to personal feelings this is not the best choice for a foot battle), then he in armament and armor is no different from the Russian warrior, the only thing is that the knight’s legs are covered with chain mail.
    1. alex-cn
      alex-cn 5 February 2016 08: 41
      +5
      Purely technically ... By the weight of the armor, he could stand up. But ... They pulled him off his horse, fell downside down, and in armor ... time is needed to recover, but this was not given to him ..., Have you never just fallen off a horse? I do not recommend checking, very boring ...
      1. cth; fyn
        cth; fyn 5 February 2016 09: 08
        +1
        The entire armor of a knight in the 13th century was courage and a little bit of chain mail. Well, a helmet, a pumpkin to cover, so that the enemy of fear and tears would not see.
      2. kin
        kin 5 February 2016 09: 25
        +2
        And there is such a video:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFvraS-rx0U
        Especially on: about: 53 onwards.
        1. cth; fyn
          cth; fyn 5 February 2016 12: 13
          0
          Such armor, as in the video, appeared only 200 years after the battle on the ice, but in general it is true.
      3. Alex
        Alex 5 February 2016 22: 44
        +4
        Quote: alex-cn
        Have you never just fallen from a horse? I do not recommend checking, very boring ...

        And it hurts. Checked. Once, but no longer want.
  8. Yereke
    Yereke 5 February 2016 07: 38
    -7
    ... all thanks to the consent of the Horde, which was also with them (but here the local story will never write, as well as about the half-Polovtsian Nevsky, whose wife was also a Catherine’s wife, and the children in general then .. but they all go to the movies with blondes), as it was if ... they were all in the Horde and then went further to Europe, while preserving Russian Orthodoxy instead of the ignorant Catholics, who later died there because of the plague in Europe and all because of this did not wash and did not know what soap and bath
    1. Rivares
      Rivares 5 February 2016 13: 23
      +1
      Well, the "Mongol" Chinggis Khan was also a tall, fair-haired man with blue eyes ...
      1. Mugs
        Mugs 5 February 2016 14: 25
        0
        Not just fair-haired, but red-haired, he was with green or blue-green eyes)
    2. Mugs
      Mugs 5 February 2016 14: 36
      0
      Quote: Ereke
      (but here the local story will never write, as well as about the half-Polovtsian Nevsky, whose wife was also a Polovchyka, and the children in general then .. but they all go to the movies with blondes)

      And what is wrong? The Polovtsy were fair-haired, with blue eyes.
    3. Pissarro
      Pissarro 5 February 2016 20: 47
      +3
      , whose wife was also a Cum


      Polotsk is a city in Belarus. Alexander Nevsky’s wife, Alexander was the daughter of Prince Polotsk Bryacheslav, the last Rurikovich in Polotsk land.

      Although you are from Kazakhstan that is purely Slavic Polotsk, that the Polovtsy nomads cannot be made out, it seems laughing
  9. kalibr
    kalibr 5 February 2016 07: 54
    0
    On the caps there are feathers of funny birds,
    On helmets - horse tails.
    Above them on heavy shafts
    Black crosses swung.
    Squires behind proudly
    They brought family shields,
    On them coat of arms bear muzzle,
    Weapons, towers and flowers ...

    Beautiful, but not historical. Knights of the Order were monks to whom the charter forbade all these worldly liberties!
    1. Lone wolf
      Lone wolf 6 February 2016 03: 20
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      On the caps there are feathers of funny birds,
      On helmets - horse tails.
      Above them on heavy shafts
      Black crosses swung.
      Squires behind proudly
      They brought family shields,
      On them coat of arms bear muzzle,
      Weapons, towers and flowers ...

      Beautiful, but not historical. Knights of the Order were monks to whom the charter forbade all these worldly liberties!

      You forgot that the guests of the order were also attracted ... in other words, everyone who wanted to fight the knights ... and as for the charter ... then the order was laid on him for a long time ... there were complaints to the Pope and for other acts of the order against which, the appearance of the Crusader monks just looks like a childish prank ...
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 6 February 2016 21: 57
        -1
        Source of your information? Clearly, there is no source!
  10. igordok
    igordok 5 February 2016 07: 55
    +5
    Just as a humor. True hockey players are not up to humor.
  11. kin
    kin 5 February 2016 09: 17
    0
    Some historians spoke out that Alexander’s brother, Andrei, officially commanded the squad. Officially, they say, she was the father of Alexander given to this particular son. The goal is to humiliate the Novgorod boyars, who had previously expelled Alexander, and who offended Yaroslav. Therefore, the contribution to the victory of Nevsky is difficult to measure ... Is this so? Who has the information?
  12. Predator
    Predator 5 February 2016 09: 27
    +3
    We figured out this issue for a long time. The armament of the vigilante was almost no different from the knight, that is. and on both sides heavy cavalry. A hurried warrior and a knight fought well even without a horse. Armor in which it is impossible to fight on foot appeared much later and was used only in tournaments. No professional will wear them for battle, there are no idiots. The militia, like and the attached foot forces of the knights did not have special protection (and where to the peasant and what to get it for is very expensive). Therefore, the option of drowning the knights leaves, the warriors of no less knights would have gone under the water. So we have the classic "Cannes" with one addition - behind the middle regiment of the militia there was a reserve (which is said in the article) - a dismounted squad (in fact, heavy infantry), which is hard to break through with a wedge. And the shore and the sled are from a fairy tale. I do not think that the leadership of the order consisted of and they would They did not go to the shore and the concept of reconnaissance is also known to them. An experienced commander (and there were no others there) from the bay-flounder will not arrange a battle at random. Moreover, by this moment they had fought for several years and knew each other's strength. But the fact that the reserve was withdrawn and built for battle only when the wedge was extended is real (before that it was hiding), the order did not know about it and therefore hit the center, knowing that there was room for a wedge, and having cut the central regiment rested against an armored wall, besides, having lost acceleration and penetrating power.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 5 February 2016 16: 37
      0
      We'll talk about the "wedge" later ...
  13. Riv
    Riv 5 February 2016 09: 53
    +2
    The author told everything so well, as if he himself saw everything. However ... "This is an artist, he sees it that way." But in fact, the place where the battle took place has not yet been found. There are countless "crow's stones" on Peipsi. Almost any large rock is called that. It's not even a place name. There are quite a few outcrops of warm springs on the lake, eroding the ice and making it thin by April. For 700 years, the shape of the coast has changed. In general, there is nothing to get attached to. Not a single burial has been found (and they must have remained). Are you under water? For such a period, it is not surprising, but the local residents have no memory of this either. But in the sources there are even references to Lake Pkovskoye ...

    However, it is not necessary to dispute the fact of the battle. German historical sources also mention it. Descriptions of the forces of the parties also roughly converge (adjusted for the usual exaggeration of enemy forces). But where was it?

    I have a version that the battle was actually aimed at extermination. Not a single chronicle mentions exactly how many fighters RETURNED. Is it possible that units are in general? Then it is understandable why no one buried the dead. There was nobody to do. Demolished on the ice and left. Almost no prisoners were taken in battle. The ratio of dead and captured knights by European standards is simply fatal.
    There is evidence that before attacking the Germans, Alexander prayed in the church of St. Sophia, and leaving it said to the soldiers: "Let's die for Saint Sophia and free Novgorod!" Such calls were not scattered around. The prince was clearly going to fight to the death.
    1. Cartalon
      Cartalon 5 February 2016 10: 06
      -3
      Well, it is unlikely that Alexander Yaroslavich for free Novgorod was going to die, he himself would have gladly raised it, Such Mstislav udatny could say.
      1. Riv
        Riv 5 February 2016 10: 38
        +5
        Alexander was not noticed in jabbering. On the contrary, he gave out historical phrases one after another. "Who will come to us with a sword ..." - what is worth ... Apparently education at that time was still not bad, and the language did not run ahead of the brain. But to say so in front of all the people: "Guys, don't really hope to come back!" And then, in battle, to lead the cavalry strike against the knightly formation - it says a lot.

        In fact, for an intelligent (and Alexander was) a commander of his own free will not become ordinary. He commanded the siege of Pskov and Koporye from afar; he himself did not climb the fence. And here - just himself, ahead. So maybe he was not hoping to stay alive? And who knows what he was thinking about there, in St. Sophia Cathedral?
        1. igordok
          igordok 5 February 2016 11: 54
          0
          Quote: Riv
          The siege of Pskov and Koporye, he commanded from afar,

          There was no siege of Pskov. There were few pro-German-minded residents of Pskov, and they could not control all the gates. Alexander entered Pskov through an open gate.
          1. Riv
            Riv 5 February 2016 13: 35
            0
            Well, just so, and "drove in" ... The capture of Pskov was hardly a pleasure trip.
        2. kalibr
          kalibr 5 February 2016 16: 45
          +1
          So after all the phrase "With a sword ..." was written by Eisenstein, everyone knows this!
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 5 February 2016 16: 44
      +3
      How many knights fell, we know for sure! The Rhymed Chronicle commemorates them! REMEMBERS! If it does, it means they were included in the "memorial". For religiously illiterate people, this is a document to remember with prayer how many dead. The chronicle was for the internal use of "brothers-knights". They REMEMBERED their brothers when they gathered in the refectory. This is written in all descriptions of knightly orders, this is their normal practice. But to lie about the number of the enemy - "for each brother, 60 Russians", why not? An explanation of why we lost! But God was not deceived! This is the Order! The beginning of the Order, even before decay ...
  14. Mangel olys
    Mangel olys 5 February 2016 10: 19
    -3
    To the author: objectivity is not enough. I understand that we live in Russia, this is our homeland, but still ...
    As a result, the battle ended with the complete victory of the Russian army.

    I would say the complete victory of the combined army.
    The German chronicler Reingold Heydenstein in his "Notes on the Moscow War" writes: "... in 1242, Prince Alexander Yaroslavovich, being sent by the khan to the Tatar Batu and receiving Tatar troops to help". It is known that Heydenstein refers only to documents and reports of living witnesses who participated in the cases, and does not mention any personal observations at all.
    And the tactics of Alexander Yaroslavovich was Tatar.
    1. Riv
      Riv 5 February 2016 10: 43
      +3
      Here the chronicler can hardly be trusted. At that time, Alexander did not yet have close ties with the Horde. And if he had under the command of the Tatar cavalry, none of the Germans would have left at all. Among Tatars, the most common thing was to pursue the enemy to the last possible opportunity. Dozens of kilometers hang on the tail of the retreating and destroy the backward groups.
      1. Mangel olys
        Mangel olys 5 February 2016 11: 36
        -2
        At that time, Alexander did not yet have close ties with the Horde.

        Well, how was it not? And the fact that Alexander Nevsky was a twin of Sartak, the son of Batu Khan, and therefore his adoptive son? About this writes L.N. Gumilev.
        And the British historian David Nicole, relying on medieval Western European sources, writes about Russian allies, archers on horses on the left flank, who made a huge contribution to the defeat of the crusaders.
        1. Riv
          Riv 5 February 2016 13: 06
          +2
          But nothing that the Battle of the Ice happened in 1242, and Alexander fraternized with Sartak in 1251?

          Actually, the very version of such fraternization is doubtful, because the question is whether Sartak was actually a Christian. But the fact that Alexander was a true believer - a lot of evidence.
          1. Mangel olys
            Mangel olys 5 February 2016 14: 07
            -1
            And nothing that the Russian chronicles preserved a record of those times when Batu Khan "" honored Yaroslav with great honor, and his men and rivers to him: "Yaroslav, and wake you old as all the prince in the Russian language" "And Alexander, you know who was Yaroslav.
            1. Riv
              Riv 5 February 2016 14: 49
              +1
              So where is Yaroslav and where is Alexander? No need to pin this up. Princes such as Alexander, in Russia ran in herds. What, each Tumen to give? This is only later, when the Germans and the Swedes were defeated - Alexander Nevsky became famous. It was possible to fraternize with this, and help the troops. And before that - who was he? Yes, no one.

              He was kicked out of Novgorod with such a fuss that Yaroslav wanted to send his brother Alexander, Andrei, to the request of the Novgorodians. Novgorodians themselves rested on Alexander. Apparently they thought that at least they knew him, and his brother might turn out to be better.
              1. Mangel olys
                Mangel olys 5 February 2016 16: 45
                0
                Back to our "rams"
                At that time, Alexander did not yet have close ties with the Horde.

                how Batu Khan "" honored Yaroslav with great honor, and his men, and rivers to him: "Yaroslav, and wake you old as all the prince in the Russian language" "

                So the father had connections, but the son didn’t?
    2. Predator
      Predator 5 February 2016 10: 45
      +3
      Since when did the tactics of outreach and encirclement become Tatar ?! And what about Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Y. Caesar, Svyatoslav and others who used all this when they did not hear about the Tatars ?!
      And the defeat of the knights is also the defeat of the combined army-order, bishoprics and "free geese." If the Tatar contingent took part there, then a shooting strike on the wedge would be reflected in the description of the battle and I think that the head of the wedge would hurry to the ground 100%.
      Yes, it does not hinder to note that the troops suffer the main losses not in battle, but precisely during the retreat, and even more so during the flight.
      1. Mangel olys
        Mangel olys 5 February 2016 12: 04
        -2
        You want to say that Alexander Nevsky adopted this tactic from Alexander the Great and the Romans? Did I understand you correctly?
        1. Riv
          Riv 5 February 2016 13: 26
          +1
          It is clear that coverage and environment are of much more ancient origin. But I'm not talking about this, but about the persecution. You simply do not distinguish between tactics and operational art. How could it be easier to explain? ..

          The Battle on the Ice itself was a local clash of two units: the German "pig" and the Russian city militia, reinforced by the princely squad. This is a tactic. All tribal detachments (Izhora, Balts, etc.) are semi-partisan formations. Their use in battle and the blow of the Russian cavalry to the flank are tactical techniques.
          The use of the hypothetical Tatar cavalry after the battle, its exit on the path of the enemy’s retreat is already an operational art. And what the battle led to, that is, a change in the political and military situation, is a strategy.

          Another argument, by the way, is that the Battle of the Ice was a battle for extermination. Theoretically, the Russians after such a victory should have seized a strategic initiative. With all the obviousness: Alexander was a talented commander (winning a defensive battle after consuming an obviously strongest opponent is no joke) and would not have missed the moment. A campaign would follow in the areas belonging to the order. But in fact this did not happen, the war dragged on. There is only one explanation: the gravest losses of the Russians. As a result, the war ended with the embassy of the Order and the world for about 10 years.
          1. Mangel olys
            Mangel olys 5 February 2016 14: 10
            -1
            Quote: Riv
            It is clear that coverage and environment are of much more ancient origin.

            thats exactly what I mean. Only Russians and Tatars were together. And there was someone to learn from.
            1. Riv
              Riv 5 February 2016 14: 42
              +2
              But why did you get the idea that the Tatars participated in the Battle of the Ice? They fought in a completely different way, both then and five hundred years later. David Nicole and Western Sources? Horse crossbowmen, huh ...
            2. Predator
              Predator 5 February 2016 19: 16
              0
              Let's get back to the history of wars and the issues of mobilization. In the 12th century, ALL Europe could deploy no more than 30-35 thousand professional troops, with a "spear" from 10 to 100 militias, in the region of 300 thousand. After the defeat, Russia could send 800-1000 professionals to a principality and 200-300 thousand militias (for the whole of Russia) with the full mobilization of forces of 500-600 thousand, but this requires a CENTRALIZED STATE. And only for one decisive battle.
              This happened only in the 13th century (but this is a separate conversation).
          2. Predator
            Predator 5 February 2016 18: 44
            +1
            There is a small BUT. Alexander for the battle pulled EVERYTHING that Northern Russia had at that time, and he could not lose, the order used only a part of the forces and closest allies, why is it from the field of politics. After the battle, Alexander could not use the militia (here on the nose of the sowing) and besides, all the eastern borders were left without cover. Therefore, a further war with the West is not profitable for him, and despite the fact that our "friends" the Baltic states went hunting. With the decision of the issue of reconciliation with the order, Alexander released mobile forces (squads) against the Lithuanians. Just a classic.
            1. Riv
              Riv 6 February 2016 07: 39
              0
              Controversial. The militia is urban. What is the sowing season in Novgorod? The booty taken in battle will pay off any losses that the artisan or peasant will incur during downtime. Around the forest, you can get a beast, or hire a merchant in the spring. In Novgorod, in general, there have never been any cases of famine.

              Well, if they kill ... the thing is, in general, for those times, everyday and dead, all the more so for the affairs of the living. Another thing is that Alexander’s reputation after the Battle of the Ice was slightly dampened. The losses are large, from the booty - one weapon and armor that still need to be sold. Part of the Germans managed to escape and now sits behind the walls of the fortresses. How to pick them out? Well, of course, who is arguing about household chores? .. In general, Alexander managed to replenish the squad, but apparently with the infantry it was more difficult. However, some help was provided by his brother Andrei.
    3. Rivares
      Rivares 5 February 2016 13: 41
      0
      Quote: Mangel Olys
      And the tactics of Alexander Yaroslavovich was Tatar.

      If we rely on the official history, then the tactics are not Tatar but Mongolian. And the Tatars at the office. the stories were "genocidal". Funny you "Mongol" Batu Khan and "Mongolian" army in the Tatars recorded))) "Mongols" are indignant)))
      1. Mangel olys
        Mangel olys 5 February 2016 14: 14
        -1
        Once again I will give my reasons.
        Mangel Olys RU 21 January 2016 17: 55 | Tactics, armor, weapons of medieval Eurasia. 2 part
        Yes, I think so. The word "Mongol" appeared only during the lifetime of Chyngyz Khan. Under this word, he united the peoples. This is a political name.
        In the “Complete Description of the Mongol-Tatars,” Tatars, according to the ancient Chinese literary tradition, are divided into white, black, and “wild” (Men-da bei-lu, p. 45-48). By whites we mean tribes wandering along the Great Wall of China, subordinates - tribes of the deep regions of Mongolia, and by "wild" - Mongol tribes of the northern, taiga regions. The South Sun diplomat Zhao Hong (1221) writes: “The so-called wild Tatars are very poor and even primitive and have no abilities. [They] only know what to ride on horses after all [others]. The current emperor Chinggis, as well as all [his] generals, ministers and dignitaries are black Tatars ”(Men-da bei-lu, p. 48). Zhao Hong further notes that the name of the dynasty sounds like “The Great Mongolian State” (Men-da Bei Lu, p. 53). In the text of The Secret History of the Mongols, re-transcribed using Chinese characters, the ethnonym Mongol is transmitted through man-ho with a superscript da-da (Tatars).
        1. Riv
          Riv 5 February 2016 14: 38
          -1
          Yes? And where did it all go? Why are the Mongols now a semi-nomadic people, whose own writing even appeared only two hundred years ago?
          They won half the world ... How come ... :)))
    4. kalibr
      kalibr 5 February 2016 20: 21
      0
      You took it from the article "The Name of the Prince", from TM. And by the way, there were links in it, which is not typical for TM.
  15. triglav
    triglav 5 February 2016 11: 31
    +1
    Alexander Nevsky is a great strategist! Long live Russia!
  16. 1rl141
    1rl141 5 February 2016 11: 31
    0
    At the same time as the knights, although quite independently of them, Lithuanians began to raid Novgorod volosts. They took advantage of the weakening of Novgorod Rus and plundered Russian lands.

    Without these mongrels, the abominable even then could not do.

    Thanks to decisive military victories, the crusaders suffered heavy losses, and the Order lost its striking power. For some time, the combat potential of the Order was weakened. Only 10 years later, the knights tried again to capture Pskov.

    It is interesting to calculate how many times from 1242 to 1945 the Germans raked the lyuley? Have 700 years of regular lyuley taught them at last, or will Pskov want again?
    1. Pissarro
      Pissarro 5 February 2016 21: 01
      0
      It is interesting to calculate how many times from 1242 to 1945 the Germans raked the lyuley? Have 700 years of regular lyuley taught them at last, or will Pskov want again?


  17. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk 5 February 2016 12: 10
    -3
    As they say, I goof without a button accordion ...
    Well, the author proposed a free text on the official history of the Battle of the Ice.
    Immediately there were a bunch of opponents who - KNOW BETTER.
    and the chroniclers were mistaken. All. Without exception. Despite the fact that they were not caught in a lie.
    I’ll even say more - in the chronicles of the Mongols, which the Chinese wrote to them, much more is told about the plot-progress-final and the results of the battle.
    And also, why the Tatars did not trample everyone else in the snow dust. The surviving survivors.
    .
    And we have not even started the New Chronology.
    Or unconventional.
    Or alternative.
    And how many options are there, you’ll sway.
    .
    And how many in general - and the knights, starring from a horse (and why, actually, starring? Did they enter a skyscraper at full speed, or what? They coward-cowardly on their mare, gradually stopped, here they are from different directions, like ants caterpillar and They began to pull off with Komoni) - they can not fight.
    And, exactly the same, the same knights, but they did not mount a horse, quite waving themselves pieces of iron. Yes, and they advise each other - not parts, they say, out of breath.
    And, the chief warlords, knowing that there is dangerous ice around (and in the heat of battle there is time for a GPS navigator to look around?) Choose this position. Like, break through ...
    .
    One fact - the battle was, the army from the Russian side won. The winner is Alexander Nevsky.
    Fact.
    And nothing more.
    ..
    And everything else is a new chrenology.
    Whoever wants to, that and .. hands on, in short.
    .
    And then we are not allowed to read Fomenko.
    Are gifted alternatives better?
    1. Riv
      Riv 5 February 2016 13: 40
      +1
      How how??? In the Mongolian chronicles? Which did the Chinese write?
      Well, comrade, you pinned ... :))) I still smile. Surely! The Chinese know better.
  18. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk 5 February 2016 14: 00
    0
    This is not me, honestly.
    Recently, there was a publication - http://topwar.ru/89477-taktika-dospehi-vooruzhenie-srednevekovoy-evrazii-chast-3
    .html ...
    so it is from there.

    The second paragraph from the end.
    Black letters on a white sheet of paper.
    1. Riv
      Riv 5 February 2016 14: 50
      0
      Clear. But are these reenactors what you wanted? "The artist sees it that way."
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 5 February 2016 15: 41
        +1
        Reconstructors, yes ....
        For example, I am much more positive towards reenactors than to ..theoretical researchers. Stories, meaning.
        Reconstructors themselves rivet their armor, from springs, they themselves bring-go to the subtleties of metalwork and blacksmithing. Really see the advantages and disadvantages of this or that type of armor.
        Really bleed. In the winter, in the children's park in Orel, often the reenactors are in the winter, because you don’t stare in the iron to wave the iron. Yes, and a bruise - fell into the snow, here's the cooling. So, as they let themselves bleeding, really saw.
        Therefore, there is reason to believe them.
        But those who theoretically master everything - I have little faith. I hardly believe at all.
        I wrote it myself. And term papers, and passing, and lectures, and at colloquiums and at seminars and at any symposiums.
        So what?
        A bunch of ALREADY written is taken - squeezing is done in one's own way, or with a predetermined purpose.
        .
        And what grounds do we have for BELIEVING that the ancient chroniclers (if they are ancient at all, and not the Musin-Pushkin samostrings) did not do exactly the same?
        Why do we suddenly think that Nestor the chronicler was ... wow, what a hardworking monk, day and night he ran about his cells and collected material. Interviewed everyone by market, but with the merchants a description of events and lands was.
        And it could not be just a loafer-monk, who was given to rewrite SOMETHING.
        And instead of it, he pumped sour meat, and he spied from three baskets.
        Or bound someone who has already bound someone.
        .
        Maybe that’s why those who personally looked and checked .. places of bygone battles, Hans Delbrück, for example, Colonel of the General Staff of the Prussian army, do not enjoy demand.
        His conclusions about the Marathon and other battles were so unexpected for that time .... This is not even Fomenko of those days, but Bushko-Morozo-Nosovsky with an unconventional orientation.
        .
        In general, all this is a matter of FAITH.
        And trust.
        1. Riv
          Riv 5 February 2016 16: 11
          +1
          These are toys, even adults. Well, how to explain? ..

          Suvorov / Rezun described a curious effect in "Spetsnaz": if a sapper shovel is thrown at a man armed with a machine gun, he will try to repulse it with his weapon. This is actually the case. A person simply forgets that a machine gun can shoot. You need to get used to the weapon long enough to automatically respond to the attack with a shot.

          A re-enactor - he gets used to the opposite. Moreover, the maximum that he faces is cuts and bruises. He can even know everything about medieval armor and weapons, but in a real battle they will kill him. He is in chain mail and with a sword and will not have a chance even against a knife. Even against the stone. And then squeeze, do not squeeze ... But until then, he considers himself a cool military.

          Or another example. For a long time they put me a few simple tricks. Disarm, impact on joints, simple bumps and blocks. It’s just dangerous to grab me from behind with a hand on my shoulder. The reflex worked and the fingers cracked. Moreover, hugging from behind is dangerous, where the counter-reception begins with a kick. And I can’t retrain me.
          1. 1rl141
            1rl141 5 February 2016 16: 31
            +5
            Quote: Riv
            It’s just dangerous to grab me from behind with a hand on my shoulder. The reflex worked and the fingers cracked. Moreover, hugging from behind is dangerous, where the counter-reception begins with a kick. And I can’t retrain me.


            Does the wife have all her fingers broken? Does he often get a foot?
          2. kalibr
            kalibr 5 February 2016 16: 53
            +1
            By the way, you are absolutely right about the reenactors. I was at one "competition" back in 2000. Two guys fought with swords and pushed each other with a shield so that he fell and ... would have been hacked, or the pushed one would have chopped his legs. Guess who was given penalty points? Who pushed! "They don't fight like that!" The fact that the Vikings have the most popular sword name "Nogokus" - in fig! You can't push with a shield ... And this is a reconstruction?
            1. Predator
              Predator 5 February 2016 19: 39
              +1
              For fun. When compiling instructions for the cops (using shields and batons), the battle techniques from Sparta to the Russian Wall were completely studied. And everything was applied.
          3. Old shoe
            Old shoe 5 February 2016 19: 51
            +3
            if a sapper blade is thrown at a man armed with an automatic machine, he will try to repulse it with a weapon. This is actually so. The man just forgets that the machine gun can shoot
            I imagined this situation: a sapper blade flies at me, and I shoot at the one who threw it. On the spot. But the blade will not stop from this! So, killing the enemy, I immediately get it between the eyes. So it might be better to repulse first, and only then, in no hurry ...
            1. Predator
              Predator 5 February 2016 23: 34
              +1
              Well, here I am telling you as an expert, to quietly come from the services, and most importantly, to leave quietly. If there is a firearm and the possibility of using it, then no one will let you in at a throwing distance, and if some kind of cattle allows even an exotic surekin to enter, then then he dies on repeat after 220 push-ups, 10 km of cross-country with full. That is, it’s unrealistic that any special person will dodge your shoulder blade and be sure to slap you 2-3 bullets from a pistol or 3-6 from a machine gun. you - I didn’t say ....
          4. King, just king
            King, just king 5 February 2016 22: 01
            +1
            Riv, I served in one very funny unit, I didn't understand a bit, what kind of trick is this? Usually, with this "hand on shoulder" position, the elbow joint breaks - simply and tastefully. How to influence the fingers? breaking is stupid.
            1. Predator
              Predator 6 February 2016 00: 34
              +1
              This is greetings from fun units — what over the past 60 years have you grabbed into a hand in hand? This flare is 100% unreal! Once again (well, who doesn’t know), the main thing is to leave UNSENTED! It’s just that nobody was there!
              1. King, just king
                King, just king 6 February 2016 00: 45
                +1
                In the words of our company (in civil retelling): if a scout grabbed a hand-to-hand combat - that means he .. (lost) all his weapons, shoes, clothes, completely naked, turned out to be on a completely bare ground where he was waiting for the same dol .. (stupid opponent) .

                But this does not mean that you do not need to know how to kill with your bare hands.

                And to shoot a Bosko is extremely undesirable because of the high marsiness. We have for shooting at the Bosko targets - they brutally punished, running, until they turn blue. I don’t like to run after the army !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                How long has it been ... 87-89.
                1. Riv
                  Riv 6 February 2016 04: 46
                  0
                  Did I say "break" somewhere? People have strange notions. If you took it, then you definitely broke it.
                  Moreover, the wife something to break - this is bad manners. She will not be able to work later.
                  1. Bashibuzuk
                    Bashibuzuk 6 February 2016 13: 58
                    +1
                    Huh ... don’t fool around, boys ...
                    .
                    an object flies at you ... only the abnormal will start shooting at him ...
                    if you see that they pulled a shovel at you.
                    And if you can see that the blade is just to hide other things ???
                    Isn’t it easier to dodge, and enter the queue by adversary?
                    .
                    Suvorov is also good to certain limits.
                    .

                    what threatens - we repel them ... there are no other options yet ...
                    .
                    interesting to read ...
  19. Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 5 February 2016 19: 38
    +1
    In 1259 the Mongols invaded the lands of the Order, in 1260 the army of the Order was defeated in Zemaitiya.
    Then the Great Rebellion of the Prussians began. Lasting 30 years, this rebellion undermined the power of the Germans. They simply were not up to us.
    The Order completed the Northern Sea Expedition.
    In Werner's drama, Supreme Master Ulrich von Jungingen utters words that later became winged:
    "Our way in ice! Midnight light
    The blooming mainland will illuminate us. ”
    In 1399, at the Battle of Worksle, Russians, Lithuanians, and Teutons fought together against the Tatars.
    In that battle, Beaver died - a participant in the Kulikovo battle.
    So everything was not so terrible at all.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 5 February 2016 20: 25
      0
      And the Poles are still the whole International!
    2. Predator
      Predator 6 February 2016 00: 57
      -1
      Just don't collect nonsense! At Vorskla, RUSSIAN sentry squads lay down (they did lay down, but did not run), which made it possible to assemble an army in full (with the exception of) composition, and when a rumor got around (you can't hide that), the Tatars just fled .And after the Battle of Kulikovo they did not go into battle anymore (raids do not count), after that there was another battle that had a decisive role, but the Tatars had nothing to do with it (although they constituted the bulk) and the "brilliant Porta" received the defeat and after that they did not went, although Europe had!
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 6 February 2016 13: 32
        +1
        By the way, for some reason, it completely ceased to amaze me that ..."Russian squads went to bed"..
        no matter how many purely Bashkirs were in these Russian squads, purely Bashkirs there, purely Kazakhs, purely the very same Tatars that everyone knows about, but which no one has seen.
        .
        Called RUSSIAN - you have one destiny - to be killed.
        If you can’t master it yourself.
        ....
        Mysteriously.
        .
        In life, he was not a nationalist.
        In life, I think that the history of Russia is distorted, if you don’t know what.
        And ... every now and then ... there are confirmations.
        .
        It is symbolic.
  20. King, just king
    King, just king 5 February 2016 21: 40
    -1
    A darkish story with the Battle of the Ice. And starting with the name. Not a single source mentions any knights who have gone under the ice. Moreover, the armament of the Novgorod latnik was not very different from the knights of the order, perhaps made in some workshops. Ours didn’t sink during the persecution. Moreover, horse-drawn, otherwise what a pursuit of horse knights.
    Then the losses, whatever one may say, the losses of knights and bollards are minimal, and this is during a brutal slash with a "pig" breaking through the order of battle, under fire from archers advanced forward, and a battle surrounded.
    It was probably not a rout, but not a very big defeat. The knights were given for mercy; this battle did not bring any special political preferences to the Novgorodians.

    A common practice at the time. The knights wanted "zipuns" - let's go somewhere, how it goes, the residents of Pskov and Novgorod are the same. Moreover, Pskov and Novgorod were not strong friends. There is no smell of a crusade or the seizure of Novgorod lands here, the belly button would be untied by the roars. The wrong scale.

    And when the authors have already begun to correctly name. Well, what is the Russian army? Army of Novgorod land. The army of the Ryazan-Smolensk-Tver Principality ... It is the same as at the time of various German states to write to the Bavarians or Hanoverians - German troops.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 5 February 2016 22: 39
      -2
      How clever you are, you want to "debunk", take away your favorite "tsatsuk". Have you seen the movie? Here! Eisenstein, he knew the truth. And you and I ... are showing criminal freedom of thought, we dare to doubt the foundations, and even refer to some chronicles. 10-15 thousand troops and that's it! And few died - "chained", you will not get to them! And Birger is shackled and the Germans! All are FORCED, therefore they drowned. And ours are light, with shafts - bang and mustache from the helmet to the sides! Handsomely! And here ... it is known: the battle was, ours won, after 10 years the Germans climbed again. Where is the scale? Where is the power, I ask you, the poetry of war, so to speak ?! And you "sin", Anatoly, and to me, that "tsatzki" we take away!
      1. King, just king
        King, just king 5 February 2016 22: 51
        +1
        Vyacheslav! So Eisenstein had to "Schaub beautifully", and then went "so their goats should be."

        Sometimes the question about the number of people amuses me (this is about 10 thousand). Well, the people are mainly: swords, chain mail, blood, guts - beauty! I have sinned, I know. But I don’t really want to think about how to feed the supposedly 300-thousandth troops of Mamaia or a million at Gaugamela. There are fortresses, people are climbing, they’re getting wet from above without getting there, and here are carts, oats, firewood, hay-forging camps, well, them ... And there are roads for passing-transporting infantry, fording bridges, in winter for crossing rivers - studded horseshoes (au-mongols near Vladimir), etc. etc. - the chief of staff will go crazy.

        1. kalibr
          kalibr 5 February 2016 23: 14
          0
          Back in 1980, in TM (Youth Technology), an article by D. Zenin was published on the anniversary of the Battle of Kulikov, where he calculated how many soldiers there could be, how many horses, food (I'm not talking about Mr. horses and people left), in a word he tried to calculate. And some absurd figures came out exactly on the OBLIGATION and stocks of FOOD. With a traditional army of 100 thousand people. That is, in order for everything to return to normal, it was necessary to reduce to 10 thousand. But then it was perceived as a "mind game". And now there really is something to think about. In 1241, the Germans beat the Germans at Legnica. The Order is suffering losses. The order is about 90 castles! In the castle there is a knight, Kastenian ... retinue. That is 180 knights and 20 people per knight - 3600. But there were losses at Legnica. Someone simply did not recover from their wounds, was sick, was on a pilgrimage to Rome, Jerusalem ... So less than 180 ... and how much it comes out in the end, even with "countless chud". And again, chud ran into battle after the horses of the knights? Not lagging behind? Or did the knights spare the monsters and rode at a step under the arrows? "Die yourself, help me out!" So what? You don't even have to believe in it, it's so stupid!
          1. King, just king
            King, just king 5 February 2016 23: 32
            +1
            Yes, um, it happens! I now have one of the external terabytes connected (sorting out the info) - with the logs of the logs. Yeah, I found: 12 number 1980 - Dmitry Zenin. "Defenders of the Russian Land". I'll read it now.

            So tuta is a faq. Well, how much could a prince of a plate squad feed if every married village or village. Well, Moscow or Tverskoy can a couple of thousand, but small? Militia, but what about the militia - what shisha do you buy armor or a horse? And, what is an armless, inept (spear or sword - not shattering) militia warrior against armored cavalry, nothing. Merchants or wealthy artisans with armor are numerically small.

            There were really miracles in the Hussite wars or the "battle of spurs" but this is an exception.
  21. King, just king
    King, just king 5 February 2016 23: 45
    0
    Read. Yes, for that time it is fresh and interesting. Illustration for an article on the similarity of equestrian armor plates armament (sl-napr) west-ours-east.
  22. VSkilled
    VSkilled 5 February 2016 23: 54
    -1
    It is a worthy article. Briefly, and - in essence. My applause.

    It is funny, at the same time, to observe how someone "caliber-shpakovsky", who not so long ago sprinkled his own, "purely pro-Western" (filthy) version of this event, finally losing face - goes to guano.

    However, what can you expect from Shpakovsky? Which, in fact, by his own admission, and not Shpakovsky at all:
    “... And as for the family name, ha ha, and my ancestors ha ha, I already wrote here that I chose it by harmony, and that this is the name of the mother from her second marriage. So, unfortunately, I have nothing to do with Poland ... ”© (http://topwar.ru/89988-etruski-protiv-russkih-chast-1.html#comment-
    id-5518551)

    Avon - as ... "the mother's surname for her second marriage ..." And - why, one wonders, "honest people" - so "encrypted"? A rhetorical question...

    And, then these "as if Shpakovskys", sincerely - are surprised: and why is it all (!) Them everywhere (!!) - so they do not like? They say, "all around are xenophobes and anti-Semites."

    Yeah ... Even "in enlightened France" (!), According to the latest polls, those who have a very negative attitude to these "shpakovskim" turned out to be ... noticeably more than half!
    (http://evreimir.com/114545/opros-frantsuzy-ubezhdeny-chto-v-antisemitizme-vinov
    aty-sami-evrei /)

    And this article, very clearly, shows why.

    Well - Mr. "as it were Shpakovsky" would not stink with his poisonous miasms, and - "completely irrelevant", accordingly - would not earn a negative attitude towards himself. However, apparently, not to stink - this is no longer in his power. Disease?
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 6 February 2016 06: 36
      -1
      I don’t give a damn about the negative attitude of ignoramuses!
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 6 February 2016 13: 43
        +1
        Not in the course of these tricky things ...
        but such a collision - definitely - out ....
        .
        a cobra is considered a noble snake, right?
        He bends his neck, puts his glasses .... myopic, see, a snake.
        That's why they considered it noble.
        And gyurza (the essence, the reinforced viper, doesn’t deal with crap, crawled into the tent - bit right there ... the figs were rattling their hood)
        the hiss of a spectacled cobra is good even with what is visible.
        .
        how to assess this emission ... I can not imagine.
        I do not own complete information.
        Good, see.
        .
        Somewhere someone once. tightly grappled about something ....
        Well....
        the question is not my awareness.
  23. sibiryak10
    sibiryak10 8 February 2016 09: 21
    0
    And how does the battle of Shauliai in 1236 fit into the theory of the "Great Crusade to North-Eastern Russia"? When did the troops of the Livonian Order, together with the Novgorodians and Pskovians, get rid of Lithuania? Perhaps the then residents of Novgorod and Pskov somehow better understood the situation? Or do we know better from the height of the past centuries? In general, one gets the impression that at that time, both the battle on the Neva and the Battle of the Ice and the Battle of Rakovorskaya, these were local battles. And no one there set strategic tasks for the Catholics - "to come and conquer the schismatics-Orthodox"
  24. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 16 February 2016 01: 49
    -1
    An article in the traditional style of propaganda stamps! Mdja ...
    The Order was a powerful and formidable force that inexorably absorbed the eastern lands, turning the local population to the western version of Christianity with fire and sword.
    A powerful and formidable force? what order? Teutonic - so this is a branch of the Johannites, he is busy with his own affairs in Prussia. Livonian? so this is generally a "supernumerary branch" of the Teutonic! and he has strength - several dozen knight brothers ...

    12 thousand knight army led by Vice-Master of the Teutonic Order A. von Velven. The Russian army consisted of 15-17 thousand people.
    Let's just say - if an army of several thousand (well, in 10-15 thousand) in general, Novgorod, or rather Vladimirskaya Russia could still be assembled, then 12 thousand Livonian order - what is it? What kind of fabulous mobresursov or where so much dough to hire Chud?

    Quote: Lone Wolf
    then the order had long given it to him with the device ... there were complaints to the Pope and for other actions of the order against which, the appearance of the monks of the Crusaders looks like a childish prank ...
    Well, well, 13 century - as already rightly said - the flowering of orders, and for violation of the statute punished more severely than in the modern army.

    Quote: King, just king
    A common practice at the time. The knights wanted "zipuns" - let's go somewhere, how it goes, the residents of Pskov and Novgorod are the same. Moreover, Pskov and Novgorod were not strong friends. There is no smell of a crusade or the seizure of Novgorod lands here, the belly button would be untied by the roars. The wrong scale.

    Absolutely! The Novgorodians made the same campaigns of conquest to the Baltic states, and to Finland, and to Karelia! Just then another feudal "collector" appeared.

    Quote: King, just king
    So here after all faq. Well, how many prince plate squad could feed, if each married village, or village. Well, Moscow or Tverskaya can a couple of thousand, and small? The militia, and what the militia - what shishi reservation or horse to buy?

    In general, the strength of the squad of a large prince of Rus in 12-14 centuries. - 200-400 horse warriors; the number of the squad of the petty prince (whom then was Alexander Nevsky) - 50-80 of professional horsemen ... The question is discussed - the father sent him how many warriors or not ...

    Quote: sibiryak10
    Probably, then the inhabitants of Novgorod and Pskov somehow better understood the situation?
    And that is why so often they were allies of Christian knights in the fight against pagan balts?!?