Military Review

Modification rifle "Arisaka" chambered for 7,62х39 mm (China)

27
Until a certain time, China did not have developed armory industry, because of which he had to rely only on the supply of foreign weapons. Subsequently, with the help of foreign countries, it was possible to establish the production of various weapons, but even after that there was no complete rejection of imported weapons. So, some of the available samples were redone on new projects and continued to be used in the army, gradually giving way to newer weapons. One example of such an approach to the preservation of weapons was the project of remaking Japanese Arisaka rifles under a new cartridge.


In the fifties, the Chinese industry began the production of several types of small arms of Soviet development, designed to use the intermediate cartridge 7,62х39 mm. In this regard, the weapons of the People’s Liberation Army of China received copies of the Kalashnikov assault rifle, the Degtyarev light machine gun and the Simonov self-loading carbine. AK, RPD and SKS gradually became the main weapon of the army, displacing the available samples. Nevertheless, the command of the army did not decide to completely abandon obsolete weapons. Moreover, a part of this weapon had to be upgraded and continue its service.

After the end of World War II, a large number of Japanese weapons remained at the disposal of the Chinese armed forces, including the Type 38 or Arisaka rifles. Like other foreign-made weapons, Japanese rifles were actively used by Chinese soldiers over the next few years. However, over time, problems with ammunition began to appear: the occupants left a significant amount of 6,5x50 mm SR ammunition, but the reserves declined with time. The situation was similar with other weapons supplied from abroad along with ammunition.


Upgraded rifles of different series


To solve this problem, an original idea was proposed. Available samples of weapons proposed to alter under the Soviet intermediate cartridge, the production of which has already been established in China. As a result, it was possible to save existing weapons, reduce the costs of upgrading them, and also insure themselves against possible problems with ammunition in the future. The program of this modernization included several types of weapons, including the Japanese Arisaka rifles.

Japanese-made Type 38 rifles were non-self-loading weapons with a sliding bolt and magazine ammunition. No automation was provided for. Such features of rifles to some extent simplified their rework, since there was no need to reconfigure the automation for a new cartridge. In addition, it became possible to get by with just a few new parts, including ones borrowed from other weapons.

In fact, the whole modernization of the rifle was to replace a number of parts, taking into account the different dimensions of the new cartridge. Despite the smaller caliber (6,5 mm with a 6,7 mm bullet diameter), the Japanese-made rifle cartridge had a greater length - 75,7 mm against the 55,5 mm of Soviet ammunition. At the same time, the Soviet intermediate cartridge had a shorter sleeve (39 mm versus 50 mm), and the maximum diameters of the ammunition differed by about 0,6 mm. There was also a noticeable difference in the weight of the cartridges, however, as well as other parameters (powder mass, initial bullet velocity, muzzle energy, etc.), within the framework of this modernization did not matter.


Rifle "Arisaka" in the base configuration


During the development of a project to rework rifles "Type 38", it was decided not to use the existing barrels. Drilling the bore to the desired caliber was considered impractical, which is why the existing rifles had to be completed with new trunks. As a basis for the new trunk, the corresponding unit was taken from the SKS self-loading carbine, which recently began to be produced in China under a Soviet license. Such a trunk had a rifled canal and chamber, designed specifically for the Soviet intermediate cartridge. According to various sources, both the original shafts for the SCN with the length of 520 mm and their elongated versions were used.

The trunk was proposed to be fixed in the receiver and attached to a wooden box with a few screws and clamps. At the same time, the design of fasteners, in comparison with the Arisaka rifle, did not change. In view of the shorter length of the barrel, during reworking, the stock was shortened by the front part. A slot for a bayonet could also be made on a preserved part. Other elements of the wooden lodge did not change and retained the neck with the pistol protrusion, butt, etc. According to some reports, some rifles for several reasons received new wooden parts, slightly different from the original ones. This was probably due to the poor condition of the available parts and the need to preserve overall operational rifles in the ranks.

The rifle "Type 38" had a longitudinal sliding bolt with a side grip. When upgrading, it was decided to keep this node, and also not to change the principle of its operation. It was necessary to modify the extractor in connection with a different design of the liner. The comparatively simple firing mechanism was also preserved. The operation of these rifle assemblies was almost independent of the type of cartridge, which allowed them to remain without significant changes.


Gate and feeder of the modified rifle magazine


Significant improvements undergone shop base weapons. In the initial configuration, the Arisaka rifle had an integral box magazine on 5 cartridges 6,5x50 mm SR. It is known that rifle shops were updated in several ways, because of which the design of different types of ammunition systems could differ significantly. The main task of redesigning the store was to ensure the work of the parts when using a less long cartridge 7,62x39 mm. For this, several basic ideas were used.

Depending on the series, the store could receive a new spring, a modified feeder and / or a back stop. With the help of these parts, the “short” cartridges were pressed against the front wall of the store and remained in that position until the moment they were fed to the disilline. Samples of modified rifles with incomplete composition of new parts of the store are also mentioned. So, some rifles received a back support and a modified feeder, others were only completed with a shortened feeder, and the section of the working volume of the store remained unchanged. As before, the store consisted of only five rounds.

Despite the use of the new cartridge, the principle of the weapon remained the same. To prepare for the shot, it was necessary to turn the shutter handle to 90 ° counterclockwise and move it back. When moving back, the bolt seized the upper cartridge from the magazine and sent it to the chamber. Further, by turning the bolt clockwise, the barrel was locked before firing. To extract the spent cartridge case and send a new cartridge, you had to repeat this operation. Having shot the store, charging, according to some sources, had to be done manually and without using clips.

Modification rifle "Arisaka" chambered for 7,62х39 mm (China)
Details of the store with a shortened feeder


Improvements of the mechanisms of the rifle, first of all the store and the extractor, have been very successful. With a significant change in the dimensions of the cartridges, the performance of the systems remained at the same level. The incorrect operation of the mechanisms was extremely rare, which allowed them to confidently fire for a long time.

The updated rifles were supposed to use the new cartridge, which in its ballistics was different from the base 6,5x50 mm SR. Despite this, the authors of the modernization project decided not to equip rifles with new sights. On the trunk, the front sight was kept on a small stand, and over the breech of the trunk there was an open mechanical sight, designed for the “old” cartridge. Because of this, the new adjustment could not give the expected results, and when aiming, it was necessary to take corrections not only to the wind, etc., but also to the type of cartridge. Without such corrections, the aiming point and the point of impact significantly diverged.

Apparently, the modernization of Japanese-made rifles was carried out on several similar projects at the same time, because of which different samples of such weapons may have noticeable differences, both internal and external. For example, it is known about the existence of a significant number of “Arisaka” rifles with new bayonets. Having received the Soviet documentation on weapons, the Chinese industry also began to let out bayonets for it. Thus, SKS license carbines were completed with knife-shaped and needle-bayonets, the latter being produced in large quantities.


Needle integral bayonet in the stowed position


Part of such integral bayonets with a three-sided needle blade was mounted on upgraded rifles "Type 38". Thanks to the original hinged fastener with a latch, it was possible to literally in a couple of seconds to transfer the bayonet into a combat (forward) or traveling (laid under the barrel) position. It should be noted that similar modifications of the AK machine gun, produced in China, were also completed with similar needle-bayonets.

Before the start of a full-scale small arms modernization program, rifles, carbines, machine guns, etc. were used in the PLA. several different models for different cartridges. By the mid-fifties, this problem was partially solved: several new models were adopted for use under a single intermediate cartridge. One of the ways to modernize weapons has been the modification of Arisaka rifles, which were available in large quantities in warehouses. As production and supply of new rifles and rifles were in place, the rifles retained their place in the army, but were gradually decommissioned, sent to storage or disposal. Over time, the old rifles were completely replaced by new machine guns. To date, Japanese-made Type 38 rifles, converted by the Chinese industry under the Soviet cartridge, are considered a real rarity.


On the materials of the sites:
http://forgottenweapons.com/
http://world.guns.ru/
http://forums.gunboards.com/

Photo review of several samples of modified rifles:
http://forgottenweapons.com/rifles/arisakas-in-7-62x39mm/
Author:
Photos used:
Wikimedia Commons, Forgottenweapons.com
27 comments
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  1. qwert
    qwert 9 February 2016 06: 59 New
    +4
    It's cool that they remade the existing rifles. I did not think that such a thing was possible, or at least rationally and profitably in terms of material costs. Maybe it would be easier to convert one of the factories for additional production of cartridges of caliber 6,5mm?
    1. AK64
      AK64 9 February 2016 09: 38 New
      0
      drilling a trunk is easier than drilling it from scratch

      Setting up a cartridge for 100K rifles isn’t worth it
      1. bistrov.
        bistrov. 9 February 2016 10: 18 New
        +3
        Quote: AK64
        drilling a trunk is easier than drilling it from scratch

        This is practically the same operation. Drilling is just one operation. The main part of the time is the formation of grooves, the cutting of which is performed in several passes.
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 9 February 2016 17: 08 New
          0
          Quote: bistrov.
          which are cut in several passes

          By that time, the trunks were no longer planing and stretched with a mandrel in one pass. moreover, the native trunk was thrown out and a new one was installed in its place - Drilling the bore to the desired caliber was considered inappropriate, because of which the existing rifles had to be equipped with new trunks. As the basis for the new barrel was taken the appropriate unit from the SKS self-loading carbine
          1. AK64
            AK64 9 February 2016 18: 25 New
            0
            moreover, the native trunk was thrown out and a new one was installed in its place

            And what did they then try to save in such a strange way ?? Butt or something ???? Strange people. What is the point then in this alteration?

            -
            Drilling the bore to the desired caliber was considered inappropriate, because of which the existing rifles had to be equipped with new trunks. As the basis for the new barrel was taken the appropriate unit from the SKS self-loading carbine

            Amazing ... Ditch a good barrel of an excellent carbine for the sake of saving WHAT? Japanese butt or what?
        2. AK64
          AK64 9 February 2016 18: 22 New
          0
          Drilling is just one operation.

          It is not.

          The main part of the time is the formation of grooves, the cutting of which is performed in several passes.

          Dorning, single stretch mandrel.
      2. 3news
        3news 9 February 2016 14: 56 New
        0
        Quote: AK64
        drilling a trunk is easier than drilling it from scratch

        I doubt that the wall thickness would allow so much to expand the bore.
        But in any case, the path chosen is too wise. It was easier to squeeze a sleeve from 7,62x39 mm under an Arisak bullet in 6,5 mm caliber. And in the chamber make liners. The sleeve is serial, inserts and a bullet, the price is a penny. Simple and extremely inexpensive.
        True, one still had to think about throwing the cartridge case out. But there are really little things, not very difficult.
        1. AK64
          AK64 9 February 2016 18: 33 New
          0
          I doubt that the wall thickness would allow so much to expand the bore.

          Watch, of course, necessary. But it seems to me there are no special problems: the cartridge at Arisaki is even more powerful than the intermediate, in the sense of pressure. and the diameter of the sleeve at the base is even slightly (0.1) larger than that of the Russian intermediate.


          But in any case, the path chosen is too wise.

          Well, yes - it’s not clear what they tried to save in this way?

          It was easier to squeeze a sleeve from 7,62x39 mm under an Arisak bullet in 6,5 mm caliber. And in the chamber make liners. The sleeve is serial, inserts and a bullet, the price is a penny. Simple and extremely inexpensive.

          I agree that this is easier.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. gross kaput
      gross kaput 9 February 2016 17: 14 New
      -1
      Quote: qwert
      Are you going to convert one of the factories for additional release of 6,5mm cartridges?

      What for? by that time the bolts had already "died", the standard cartridge in the PLA became 7,62X39, so there was no point in setting up the production of Japanese cartridges
    3. Dam
      Dam 9 February 2016 21: 24 New
      +1
      Strange Chinese guys, ruining a good rifle by transferring it to an intermediate cartridge. The solution, to say the least, is surprisingly new. In addition to the fact that the remodeling operation itself resembles the removal of the tonsils through the antipode hole, the combat qualities of the rifle decreased significantly. (6,5 caliber quite successfully combines a relatively gentle trajectory and a comfortable return of the shot).
      1. 3news
        3news 9 February 2016 22: 07 New
        0
        Quote: Damm
        spoil a good rifle by transferring it to an intermediate cartridge.

        1. Cartridges are subdivided into types depending on their capacity. And only "sofa experts" divide them by the length of the sleeve. The 6,5x51mm SR cartridge of Arisaka on a rifle barrel with a length of 800 mm gave out DE 2570 J. This is 1895 ft-lb (foot-pounds). Those. The Arisaka cartridge is a powerful intermediate cartridge by today's standards. But he did not know about it yet, because in his time, intermediate cartridges did not exist, they were introduced later. Therefore, he was considered a rifle.
        2. The DEP (effective destruction range) of the Arisak cartridge on a rifle barrel 800 mm long is approximately equal to the DEP of the Soviet dokhlopatron 7,62x39 mm on a barrel 520 mm long (2134 J or 1574 ft-lb). Those. approximately 330 m (the norm for an army self-loading and magazine rifle is 400 m). The secret is simple, the caliber of the Soviet cartridge is more correct.
        Quote: Damm
        and the fighting qualities of the rifle decreased significantly.

        At least they stayed the same. If used trunks from SCS. Or improved if extended ones were used.
        Quote: Damm
        6,5 caliber quite successfully combines a relatively gentle trajectory

        This beloved story of the "hryundelman" must be told to all those countries that at the end of the 30s abandoned weapons with cartridges in 6,5 mm caliber. The last. These are just the Japanese and Italians. And all amicably switched to larger calibers. Italians in 7,35 mm caliber, Japanese in 7,7 mm caliber. Apparently, from its hopeless darkness. And also from the fact that 330 m DEP (for Japanese rifles) is less than the norm of 400 m.Italian rifles on the 6,5x52 mm Carcano cartridge had about the same.
        Quote: Damm
        and comfortable shot return

        In order to get an acceptable DEP (comparable to a DEP of a weapon in a caliber of 7,62 mm), a weapon in a caliber of 6,5 mm should have a significantly larger DE (see above). But this, in turn, affects the return extremely negatively.
        SCS recoil impulse 7,32 kgm / s. The recoil impulse of the Arisaka rifle is 8,35 kgm / s. Guess where is more. At the same time, as I noted above, their DEP is approximately the same. These are the "advantages" in the 6,5 mm caliber.
        All of the above applies ONLY to cartridges with classic bullets, which are discussed in the article.
        1. Dam
          Dam 10 February 2016 02: 38 New
          0
          Long time ago they did not call me a sofa shooter. Well, in order:
          What kind of ammunition cartridge we are talking about blunt 10,4 g, speed 740 m.s. Or a more modern peaked at 9 grams and 770 m / s and an energy of 2615 J? I’m thinking about the second, since it is more suitable for the period of the Second World War.
          To understand: energy 7,62 * 39 agrees in 2134, energy 308 (classic rifle from 3016 kJ), Orthodox 7,62, 54 3306. So what is closer to energy? With DEP you distort, for arisaki type 38 it is given as 500m, for SCS 400m
          At the same time, the Arisaki bullet is 3,3 cm long with 6,5 mm diameter, and the 7,62 bullet is 2,68 cm long. And where is the flatter ballistics?
          And now we get down from the couch. His arisaki is not in the safe, but it was possible to shoot. At 300 m it gave a decrease of no more than 30 cm (which is almost a direct shot), and the calculator shows 20 cm (maybe I squinted), and the SCS will give a decrease of a meter at the same distance. Yes, in all classifiers, the Arisaka cartridge is called a rifle cartridge, not an intermediate one. So in the garden dear comrade. Fyodorov’s use of the Arisak cartridge with a powder charge reduced to 2 g for his machine gun did not make the rifle cartridge intermediate. Teach materiel and do not try to call strangers. It may turn out that the sofa is your expert site. And the jeeps adopted the 7,7 caliber as armor-piercing, faced with the fact that 6,5 Chinese wedges did not penetrate. And you can search for the darkness of hopelessness in yourself, but you can read smart books, maybe you will find out why Italians left for 7,3 caliber. Let the homework be.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. 3news
            3news 10 February 2016 10: 30 New
            0
            Quote: Damm
            Long time ago they didn’t call me a sofa shooter

            This is not about you, this is generally.
            Quote: Damm
            So what is closer to energy?

            To the post. The lantern. There are criteria. 1000 to 2000 ft-lb (lb) is an intermediate cartridge. In J, it will be from 1356 to 2712.
            Quote: Damm
            With DEP you distort, for arisaki type 38 it is given as 500m, for SCS 400m

            Nope. Approximately 330 m in both. The enemy is not a target at the shooting range. It’s not enough to hit him, he must be destroyed. At a range of up to 330 m for these cartridges this worked out well, then, as luck would have it.
            Quote: Damm
            And where is the flatter ballistics?

            And what's this? Indicator of the third degree of importance for army weapons. But important for athletes. But we are not talking about sports weapons.
            Quote: Damm
            At the same time, the Arisaki bullet is 3,3 cm long with 6,5 mm diameter, and the 7,62 bullet is 2,68 cm long.

            And what's this? These bullets are usually determined by ballistic coefficient.
            Quote: Damm
            At 300 m it gave a decrease of no more than 30 cm (which is almost a direct shot), and the calculator shows 20 cm (maybe I squinted), and the SCS will give a decrease of a meter at the same distance.

            Well, okay. You are an athlete. Because of this, you don't even know what DEP is. Athletes do not need this, they are not dealing with an opponent, but with a piece of paper called "target". Such a concept as wound ballistics is completely absent for them. Let me remind you once again that we are talking about army weapons. The bullet trajectory here is quite interesting, but only in the third place. And in the first and second, there are other important indicators.
            Once again. For sports weapons, internal and external ballistics are considered. For army weapons, internal, external and wound ballistics. This is their significant difference.
            Quote: Damm
            Yes, in all classifiers, the Arisaka cartridge is called a rifle cartridge, not an intermediate one. So in the garden dear comrade.

            Only when you finally get comfortable there. Together with their "classifiers".
            Quote: Damm
            Fyodorov’s use of the Arisak cartridge with a powder charge reduced to 2 g for his machine gun did not make the rifle cartridge intermediate.

            Fedorov used a standard Arisak cartridge (see pull-out from the NSD) with a 2,15 g weight. In those days (1923), such cartridges were also called rifle cartridges.
            In addition, the Arisaka cartridge with a 2 g charge did not exist at all. There was a rifle cartridge. And there was a machine gun cartridge "G" with a hitch of 1,9 g.
            Quote: Damm
            Teach materiel and do not try to call strangers.

            It turns out that you are turning to yourself. It would also be nice for you to hear yourself.
            1. 3news
              3news 10 February 2016 10: 41 New
              0
              Quote: Damm
              And the jeeps adopted the 7,7 caliber as armor-piercing, faced with the fact that 6,5 Chinese wedges did not penetrate.

              Oh yeah. I read a lot of such legends. They are teeming with the Internet. Could you tell me more about the Japanese "armor-piercing machine gun" Type 99 arr. 1936 He was just on the cartridge 7,7 × 58 mm Arisaka arr. 1932 And the Sino-Japanese war began in the summer of 1937. You do not agree on the ends of the version of "impenetrable Chinese wedges." The Japanese did not have time in 1932 and 1936. still run into them.
              And what did the Italians cross? Albanian wedges did not pierce?
              And also my favorite legend about "dead Japanese machine gunners" is widely spread in the internet. It is connected with the "G" cartridge from Arisaka (see above).
              Quote: Damm
              And you can search for the darkness of hopelessness in yourself, but you can read smart books, maybe you will find out why Italians left for 7,3 caliber. Let the homework be.

              Oh. Inform me urgently. It seems to me that you are confusing cause and effect. Those. the choice by the Italians of a non-standard 7,3 mm caliber was the consequence. But your reason is probably again ridiculous. Like "Chinese tankettes". This is a common thing for the Internet.
              1. Dam
                Dam 10 February 2016 17: 28 New
                -1
                For those who are on an armored train and pray to Wikipedia: by the beginning of the Second World War, all the rifles of the 7,3 caliber issued by Italians were re-barreled back to 6,5, and throughout the Second World War, the Italians fought with the "outdated" 6,5. By the way, the world encyclopedia of small arms describes the carcano rifle as superior to its contemporaries, the Lebel and Mauser rifles. Another thing is that the Italians, unlike the Japanese, did not switch to a pointed bullet, which made the ballistics sharply deteriorated in comparison with the Arisaka, but increased the stopping effect of this weapon. And about the legends, would you at least change the turns of speech or what? Although Kennedy was killed from Carcano, and a blunt bullet did not interfere with the sniper. The history info is taken from the weapons of the world book series. "
                1. AK64
                  AK64 11 February 2016 07: 00 New
                  +1
                  by the beginning of the Second World War, all the rifles of caliber 7,3 produced by Italians were re-barreled back to 6,5, and throughout the Second World War the Italians fought with the "outdated" 6,5.

                  Why are you so stubborn?
                  Well, is it important for you that the last word is yours or what?
                  Well, if you know about replacing the barrels back to 6.5, then you should know the reason for this (inability or inability to organize the production of a new cartridge in the right quantities in war conditions)!

                  That is, they switched to 7.3 because cartridge 6.5 proved its inadequacy to the task. And they switched back for organizational reasons.
                  Why argue?


                  By the way, the world encyclopedia of small arms describes the Karkano rifle as superior to its contemporaries the Lebel and Mauser rifles.

                  Lebel only lazy did not kick.
                  About Mauser it is, let's say, controversial, very controversial

                  Although Kennedy was killed precisely from Carcano, and a dumb bullet did not stop the sniper.

                  Oswald bought Carcano because the rifle cost 19.90 with that money (it is still less than $ 200 today). What else will you buy for that kind of money? And "did not interfere" - so from shooting somewhere from 100 meters! At this distance, you can kill with a slingshot
                2. 4news
                  4news 12 February 2016 13: 54 New
                  0
                  Quote: Damm
                  and throughout the Second World War, the Italians fought against the "outdated" 6,5

                  Not from a good life. "Economy" did not pull.
                  Quote: Damm
                  By the way, the world encyclopedia of small arms describes the Karkano rifle as superior to its contemporaries the Lebel and Mauser rifles.

                  This is her business. I would put Mauser and Carcano (excluding cartridges, just constructively) in one row. And given the difference in caliber, Mauser, of course, is better.
                  Quote: Damm
                  Another thing is that the Italians, unlike the Japanese, did not switch to a pointed bullet, which made ballistics sharply worsened compared to Arisaka, but increased the stopping effect of this weapon.

                  For the army and hunting, there are 3 ballistics (for the new small-caliber bullets, two). And what is good for external ballistics is bad for wound ballistics. It's me about the form classical bullets to make it clearer.
                  Quote: Damm
                  Otya Kennedy was killed precisely from Carcano, and the dumb bullet did not stop the sniper.

                  And where does Kennedy?
            2. AK64
              AK64 10 February 2016 12: 59 New
              0
              Well, okay. You are an athlete. Because of this, you don't even know what DEP is. Athletes do not need this, they are not dealing with an opponent, but with a piece of paper called "target". Such a concept as wound ballistics is completely absent for them. Let me remind you once again that we are talking about army weapons. The bullet trajectory here is quite interesting, but only in the third place. And in the first and second, there are other important indicators.
              Once again. For sports weapons, internal and external ballistics are considered. For army weapons, internal, external and wound ballistics are considered. This is their significant difference.

              You take the cartridge of Arisaki so unloved by you, or 7.62x39, and you carefully cut the cross with a little leg with a cross (or better with an asterisk).

              And all: miraculously very bad, in your opinion, the cartridges become very good.

              Yes, regarding your opinion that "the reduction of the trajectory for the military is not important" - so why should they not get hit? (The flatness of the trajectory in combat conditions, in contrast to the range, sharply reduces the effect of errors in determining the distance and thus increases the probability of hitting)
              1. 3news
                3news 10 February 2016 14: 57 New
                0
                Quote: AK64
                You take the cartridge of Arisaki so unloved by you, or 7.62x39, and you carefully cut the cross with a little leg with a cross (or better with an asterisk).

                Theoretically possible. Only in a dangerous situation will you have to shoot yourself. Because if you are captured and pinched with such cartridges, then you will have to envy the dead for quite some time.
                Quote: AK64
                Yes, regarding your opinion that "the reduction of the trajectory for the military is not important" - so why should they not get hit?

                It is necessary. But 9 to 8 also works. Not necessarily at 10. But the catastrophic fall of the DEP they have nothing to compensate.
                Quote: AK64
                The flatness of the trajectory precisely in combat conditions, in contrast to the training ground, sharply reduces the influence of errors in determining the distance and thereby increases the probability of hitting

                The range of a direct shot on the growth figure of the SKS carbine is 390 m. So, according to this indicator, unprofitable indicators are better than DEP = 330 m.
                For comparison, the Arisaka rifle, DPV (height. Fig.) 430 m, DPV 330 m. Which weapon is more balanced and economical (for some reason very often forget about this important factor) in your opinion?
                Let me remind you that the barrel of the SKA is noticeably shorter (less metal), the cartridge is lighter (i.e. cheaper), the recoil momentum is less (the design is lighter), etc. etc.
                This does not mean at all that the SCS, as the main army self-loading weapon, is good, its DPV = 330 m, it is noticeably less than the norm for such a weapon = 400 m.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 10 February 2016 17: 38 New
                  +1
                  Theoretically possible. Only in a dangerous situation will you have to shoot yourself. Because if you are captured and pinched with such cartridges, then you will have to envy the dead for quite some time.

                  You did not understand the hint. The action of the American 5.65x45 is approximately the same as that of the incised (doom-doom). In a sense, the principle is the same. In addition, as you said, 5.65x45 NATO is also fragmented.
                  It turns out that they should not be captured, it is necessary that they envy the dead.

                  And by the way: If the Soviets tried to make a cartridge with such qualities FIRST, do you imagine what would happen? How many howls and snot?

                  That's why I wrote this, as a hint of some filth of Amer’s patron.

                  It is necessary. But 9 to 8 also works. Not necessarily at 10. But the catastrophic fall of the DEP they have nothing to compensate.

                  So it's not about 9 or 8, but about whether it will hit the target (enemy) in general. At 400m, the question of getting into 10 does not matter - it is only about the probability of hitting a chest or growth target (and not a paper target but an enemy soldier).
                  So in real conditions the flatness of the trajectory and compensates for the correction for wind, an error in setting the sight in range


                  The range of a direct shot on the growth figure of the SKS carbine is 390 m. So, according to this indicator, unprofitable indicators are better than DEP = 330 m.
                  For comparison, the Arisaka rifle, DPV (height. Fig.) 430 m, DPV 330 m. Which weapon is more balanced and economical (for some reason very often forget about this important factor) in your opinion?
                  Let me remind you that the barrel of the SKA is noticeably shorter (less metal), the cartridge is lighter (i.e. cheaper), the recoil momentum is less (the design is lighter), etc. etc.
                  This does not mean at all that the SCS, as the main army self-loading weapon, is good, its DPV = 330 m, it is noticeably less than the norm for such a weapon = 400 m.

                  Well, I already told you how to increase the action on the target. And my proposal, in principle, is no different from the American method. You can do it in the factory way - hollow point, and shift the center of gravity back. (At the same time, accuracy will increase.) Yes, there are many ways to achieve the same result.

                  A more gentle slicing is possible with the same Japanese bullet. (And the Soviet can.)
                  1. 4news
                    4news 12 February 2016 15: 24 New
                    0
                    Quote: AK64
                    In addition, as you said, 5.65x45 NATO is also fragmented.

                    Unfolding bullets (5,45 mm and 5,56 mm) are also prohibited by Declaration III to the Hague Conventions of 1899. As you can see, this very declaration is only partially valid today, in terms of expansive bullets for the army. And on all sides "stigma in the gun".
                    Quote: AK64
                    If the Soviets tried to make a cartridge with such qualities FIRST, do you imagine what would happen? How many howls and snot?

                    Easy. I think that without assigning the status of a rogue country it would not have been possible. But the Americans, as you can see, can. What to do is how this world works.
                    Quote: AK64
                    That's why I wrote this, as a hint of some filth of Amer’s patron.

                    Moreover, the degree of fragmentation of the M193 bullet seemed insufficient to them, and the bullet of the M855 cartridge (SS109) is fragmented even more.
                    Quote: AK64
                    So in real conditions the flatness of the trajectory and compensates for the correction for wind, an error in setting the sight in range

                    I can't deny that the "flatness of the trajectory" is good. I argue that this indicator should be put at the head of everything. For sporting weapons, maybe. But hunting and military weapons have slightly different priorities. It is important not just to get there, it is more important to fill up there. Therefore, it is the DEP that characterizes the different categories of individual army small arms, ranging from army pistols (50m) to automatic (army) rifles (440m). And all the niches between them are also filled, marked and detailed. If you are interested, then the AK-74 there is defined in the niche of automatic assault rifles +.
                    Quote: AK64
                    You can do it in the factory way - hollow point, and shift the center of gravity back. (At the same time, accuracy will increase.) Yes, there are many ways to achieve the same result.

                    This is "done" by the 7,62x39 mm Yugo cartridge. Its performance is better than that of the Soviet 7,62x39 mm, but worse than 5,45x39 mm. But everything is not easy there either; to achieve at least some result, you need to change the barrel cutting. And without this, the effect is also there, but it is small. But there is.
                2. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
            3. Dam
              Dam 10 February 2016 17: 15 New
              -1
              Dear, you’re like an aquarium fish, you’ve forgotten everything with your head bam. I already wrote in one of the upcoming articles about wound ballistics. There they talked about 223 and 7,62, 39. Yes, it seems that the horse wasn’t feed. The knapsack ballistics of these bullets is determined (as everywhere else by the old formula E = mV squared / 2.). In this case, with greater mass and speed, the pulsating cavity is larger in Arisaki, and wounds are also heavier in Arisaki. Regarding the athlete: I remind for those who are weak in memory: not only an athlete, but also a military doctor. (so throw mantras with internal ballistics will not help). The persistence of the trajectory allows you to shoot without adjustments and manipulations with the sight, which in general greatly facilitates the life of the mass shooter. The low stopping effect of the Arisak bullet at long distances was noted, which is associated with relatively low energy and a pointed fmj bullet. But bad luck, 7,62,39 simply does not work at these distances. A DEP at 500m is more likely due to an unsuccessful mechanical sight. The Japanese had a sniper version of type 38 with optics and a recommended shooting distance of 700m. And I gave the weight of gunpowder with rounding, it didn’t make much sense in the subject of the conversation (in the context I meant that Colonel Arisaka used a powder charge for his rifle with a reduced powder charge in relation to the enemy’s weapons). And about the changes, give a link to the document and what?
              1. AK64
                AK64 10 February 2016 17: 51 New
                +1
                The knapsack ballistics of these bullets is determined (as everywhere else by the old formula E = mV squared / 2.).

                This is clearly not the case. The question is not how much energy the bullet has at the target, but how much of this bullet energy will reach the target, but how much will fly away into the bullet. If the bullet is completely decelerated in the target, then it transferred all its energy to the body - with the maximum damage. To slow down the bullet faster, use "expanding" (expanding) bullets, or turning the bullet sideways, as in 5.45 or 5.56.

                A DEP at 500m is more likely due to an unsuccessful mechanical sight.

                You personally do not want to listen to your opponent. Why talk if you don’t listen? You are talking about an effective opportunity to hit, and your interlocutor about an effective opportunity to kill with the first hit.
                1. Dam
                  Dam 10 February 2016 18: 46 New
                  0
                  No need to kill with the first hit. One wounded person needs 3 paramedics. And in any case, the wounded rifle cartridge is not a fighter but a burden. And in comparison, 7,62,39 and 6,5 * 51 will cause similar damage if hit. The wound ballistics are close for both rifles, but you don’t hear about it, you would first read the pick. There, it was not a matter of comparing the SCS and Arisaki, but of the expediency of re-shooting the latter. There was no talk of small-caliber live ammunition. And about all the evidence: Einstein shot himself now!
                  1. Dam
                    Dam 10 February 2016 19: 06 New
                    0
                    The debate here was on what is more effective: a 6,5 mm bullet fired from Arisaki or a 7,62 bullet from a 39 mm cartridge fired from the same arisaki. What are we arguing about? What will bring more energy to the goal? What has a direct shot next? Both fmj bullets, both pointed, what are we arguing about? What does a high-speed bullet of small caliber have to do with it? Just to write something
                    1. AK64
                      AK64 11 February 2016 07: 15 New
                      +1
                      The debate here was on what is more effective: a 6,5 mm bullet fired from Arisaki or a 7,62 bullet from a 39 mm cartridge fired from the same arisaki.

                      Twenty-five again!
                      Well, what about "the same Arisaki" when the barrel is from the SKS? On ballistics This is not Arisaka, but SKS!

                      What are we arguing about? What will bring more energy to the goal? What has a direct shot next? Both fmj bullets, both pointed, what are we arguing about? What does a high-speed bullet of small caliber have to do with it? Just to write something

                      You are told that according to the human target and at the same distances, the 7.62 bullet fired from the SCS will cause more severe damage than the 6.5 Arisaka bullet. Only.
                      Arisaki's deficiency in striking ability was already noted in the REV. It is a fact.
                    2. 4news
                      4news 12 February 2016 16: 26 New
                      0
                      Quote: Damm
                      What will bring more energy to the goal?

                      So what? It’s not enough to bring energy to the target, what more will transfer the energy to the target That is the main question.
                      Quote: Damm
                      What has a direct shot next?

                      Charming. The Arisaka bullet has a DPV in height. FIG. 430 m. Get lost? Stumble. But at the same time, she has a 330-m electric power depot. A small-arms self-loading weapon starts at a range of 400 m. The question is, what the hell is 2,15g in the cartridge for. gunpowder, and the rifle barrel as much as 800 mm? Maybe shorten the trunk? Or reduce the weight? To bring DPV rf to the optimal 400 m? It’s impossible, because together with the DPV DEP will decrease too. And its range (330 m) is therefore insufficient.
                      Now consider SCS. DPV R.F. 390 m, DEP 330 m. Well, actually, I already wrote about the doppler cartridge. Gunpowder is noticeably less. The cartridge itself is noticeably lighter. The trunk is noticeably shorter (520 mm), with all the ensuing.
                      What should the Chinese choose in this situation in terms of price-quality ratio? Apparently Soviet trunks and cartridges. Although all these weapons, this is garbage. And Arisaka rifles in caliber 6,5 mm, and carbines under the cartridge 7,62x39 mm. Even if the trunks do, as in the RPK (590 mm), then the RPV r.f. will increase only to 395 m, and the electric power supply will increase only to 340 m.
                      Those. if the Chinese were making new barrels, like the PKK, then even the DEP for the new weapon was greater. A DPV for growth. will be almost normal.
                      Quote: Damm
                      both pointed

                      Only here the pointedness of them is noticeably different.
                  2. AK64
                    AK64 11 February 2016 07: 08 New
                    0
                    No need to kill with the first hit. One wounded person needs 3 paramedics. And in any case, the wounded rifle cartridge is not a fighter but a burden.

                    ABOUT! And let's transfer the army to injuries? AND? After all, it is not necessary, and again, "3 health workers"!
                    Deep thought, what ...

                    And in comparison, 7,62,39 and 6,5 * 51 will cause similar damage if hit. Wound ballistics close to both rifles

                    It is not true. And everyone knows that this is not true. And even Italians in Africa were convinced that even at close distances their 6.5 is unsatisfactory. And the "3 medical workers" somehow did not console the Istalyans.
                    It is a fact. And the rest is your invention.

                    but on the bill you don’t hear, you would first read the pick.

                    I read.

                    There, it was not a matter of comparing the SCS and Arisaki, but of the expediency of re-shooting the latter. There was no talk of small-caliber live ammunition.

                    Here is your opponent and brought you arguments for the re-shooting. (I think that the reason was that the Chinese simply had no cartridge 6.5 in quantity)

                    And about all the evidence: Einstein shot himself now!

                    Well, if you don’t understand simple things, then what should Einstein do?
                  3. 4news
                    4news 12 February 2016 16: 00 New
                    0
                    Quote: Damm
                    No need to kill with the first hit. One wounded person needs 3 paramedics. And in any case, the wounded rifle cartridge is not a fighter but a burden.

                    You watch movies "about war" less. Boys in dirty pants are not fighting. And a few other people. And the price of human life in those places is somewhat different. Therefore, the wounded person is not a burden at all.
                    On the offensive, he is waiting for a medical instructor. And from the number of wounded the number of medical instructors does not increase in any way.
                    In retreat, he is awarded a grenade or a pistol, depending on his rank. Another senior officer can be dragged to the rear. "Little things" can not be counted on. In tsarist times, a glass of vodka was often enough.
                    Quote: Damm
                    Wound ballistics close to both rifles

                    A little higher, you categorically denied this.
                    Quote: Damm
                    but on the appropriateness of re-shooting the latter.

                    Expediency, as I understand it, was not in the TTX, but in the presence of ammunition.
                    Quote: Damm
                    Einstein shot himself now!

                    And where are you going to drag it?
              2. 4news
                4news 12 February 2016 14: 48 New
                0
                Quote: Damm
                I already wrote in one of the upcoming articles about wound ballistics. There they talked about 223 and 7,62, 39. Yes, it seems that the horse wasn’t feed.

                Did you write Remind me if not a secret when. I will not be lazy, I will look through your comments.
                Quote: Damm
                The knapsack ballistics of these bullets is determined (as everywhere else by the old formula E = mV squared / 2.)

                How can you put it softer? I would not recommend that you write about what you do not understand. The formula for kinetic energy that you gave is only part of the simplest and most primitive (initial level) Josserand formula. And if we consider the "adult" formulas, then the formula given to you is only a small part of them.
                And the most important thing. The energy of the bullet itself, transmitted to the victim, does not mean much. It matters the time during which this energy has been transmitted. The shorter the transmission time, the more likely it is to hit the victim's central nervous system. For this, hunters make expansive bullets. And that is why bullets of a new type when hit on the target immediately become transverse. For a sharper transfer of their energy to the victim (their cross-sectional area increases dramatically).
                Quote: Damm
                In this case, with greater mass and speed, the pulsating cavity is larger in Arisaki, and wounds are also heavier in Arisaki.

                Not at all. Even Josseran in his simplest formula recommended multiplying kinetic energy by the cross-sectional area of ​​a bullet. For reference, in a bullet of 7,62x39 mm, this figure is 1,427 times greater. In addition, the Arisak bullet has more balkeff. This is due to the need to provide an acceptable bullet weight in a smaller caliber. For external ballistics, this is good, for wound, bad. As a result of all the factors, a bullet from an Arisaka rifle has a DEP at a distance of about 330 m and there this figure is approximately equal to the same SKS bullet. Despite the fact that the cartridges and rifles are very different.
                Bullets of a new type are not described by Josseran's formula. But we are talking just about classical bullets.
                Quote: Damm
                I remind for those who are weak in memory: not only an athlete, but also a medical doctor

                I just don’t understand what your service in the hospital has to do with wound ballistics. Where do you get the "material" for "research"? Sucking out of your finger? By the way, last time you were a "surgeon from the hospital," if I'm not mistaken.
                Quote: Damm
                Trajectory persistence allows you to shoot without corrections and manipulations with the sight,

                Apparently you need to inform that DPV is in height. fig. the SKS is 390 m. Actually, 400 m is considered the norm for self-loading. But 390 with beer will also pull. Taking into account the fact that the self-loading "shooting battle" begins just at a distance of 400 m. Then snipers with rifles on normal rifle cartridges and automatic weapons usually "work".
                1. 4news
                  4news 12 February 2016 14: 48 New
                  0
                  Quote: Damm
                  But bad luck, 7,62,39 simply does not work at these distances. A DEP at 500m is more likely due to an unsuccessful mechanical sight.

                  You are all mixed up. 7,62x39 mm and should not work on 500 m. This is not his distance. Its distance is 400-440 m, but the weapon on it does not meet these criteria. That is why in the 70s of the last century he was expelled from the army and replaced by weapons on a 5,45x39 mm cartridge. Which still does not satisfy the norm, but at the same time it is fundamentally 7,62x39 mm better than weapons.
                  As for the 6,5x51 Arisaka cartridge, it's just old stuff and UG. No one in the world "caught himself" and did not return to him. Only the "couch marshals" groan about this "promising topic".
                  Quote: Damm
                  And I gave the weight of gunpowder with rounding

                  I will pretend that the phrase "Fedorov's use of the Arisaka cartridge with reduced up to 2 g powder charge for my submachine gun "I did not notice. In general, there the key is the statement that the cartridge was" with a reduced charge. "It does not matter which one. But in fact it was a regular rifle cartridge of Arisaka.
                  Quote: Damm
                  And about the changes, give a link to the document and what?

                  In the sense? Specify what it is about?
  2. Aleksandr72
    Aleksandr72 9 February 2016 07: 17 New
    +5
    At the same time, in China, under the cartridge 7,62x39, our native Mosin carbine was modified (in the modification of 1944 with an integral folding bayonet) and even the Mauser carbine - another clone of the Mauser rifle of 1898, produced in China in 30 -40s (one of the names "Chiang Kai-shek"). But I do not know whether these hybrids went into series. Even the photographs have not met. And I learned about the existence of the above modifications from the book by A.B. Beetle "Machine guns and rifles", which in my youth was my desktop.
    I have the honor.
    1. Lekov L
      Lekov L 9 February 2016 14: 04 New
      0
      under the patron of 7,62X39 modified our native Mosin carbine

      I read a long time ago, where, now I don’t remember, about the Vietnamese comrades armed with this type of weapon ..
      Apparently the series went, for Vietnam at least.
      Although it may not be true, it would be interesting to find out.
      Sincerely.
  3. Tutu
    Tutu 9 February 2016 09: 16 New
    0
    ZB vz. 26 (7,62x39 mm)
  4. air wolf
    air wolf 9 February 2016 10: 39 New
    +3
    It would be better if we bought SCS from ours for stew))
    1. 3news
      3news 9 February 2016 15: 03 New
      +2
      Quote: air wolf
      It would be better if we bought SCS from ours for stew))

      Stew, that's good. But who will give it for the SCS? For the SCS and AK / AKM relied only on vows of eternal friendship. Sometimes banana supplies in the distant future. And that’s it.
  5. qwert
    qwert 9 February 2016 11: 21 New
    +4
    Quote: AK64
    drilling a trunk is easier than drilling it from scratch

    that's how it is. But, did the Japanese really make such an excess of barrel strength?

    By the way gentlemen, but for that they minus something. I didn’t really touch anyone
    1. Bongo
      Bongo 9 February 2016 15: 00 New
      +6
      Quote: qwert
      By the way gentlemen, but for that they minus something. I didn’t really touch anyone

      And it doesn't matter, there are enough "gifted" ones. wink
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. AK64
      AK64 9 February 2016 18: 41 New
      0
      that's how it is. But, did the Japanese really make such an excess of barrel strength?

      The main pressure in the chamber, and the barrel is cylindrical.
      Well, the receiver is screwed onto Arisaki's chamber. Nevertheless, the pressure drop along the barrel is very rapid, so if the chamber can withstand it, the barrel will withstand.

      So Arisaki's sleeve is even larger in diameter than the Russian intermediate, not to mention the length. Gunpowder charge is larger. That is, the chamber would not have to be bored to a larger diameter. (As if not the other way around, Arisaki's sleeve is slightly larger in diameter.) So in the thinnest place, the thickness of the walls would not change. And further along the trunk it is not scary already, there the thickness is greater "so as not to bend in the hands of the fighter"
  6. Sasha75
    Sasha75 10 February 2016 01: 38 New
    0
    And who said they directly set high-quality trunks from the SCS, read the mogs and read the drive there while our Chinese factories complied with the technology, and then a lot of marriage went on. What seems silly and illogical to the Chinese does not apply to us at all. There are rifles, there are no cartridges of people in China, it seemed easier to remake a lot of them. And it’s not in vain that the article says that a tree was killed on some, not only the tree, but also the trunks, most likely remade the dead rifles first, and liked the result with the stalemate, and remade everything. Korea and Vietnam grind the rest of the remaining WWII trophies we also delivered there.
  7. egeny patykov
    egeny patykov 8 May 2018 07: 19 New
    0
    And then it was necessary to use trunks - for new rifles. and organize the release of cartridges. the benefit of gunpowder and capsules can be used of the same type.