Military Review

Mosin rifle bayonets

63
In 1891, the new Russian army was adopted weapon - Russian three-line rifle, created by S.I. Mosin. This rifle was supposed to replace the "Berdank", operated since the beginning of the seventies. In the new project used shop ammunition, which provided a significant superiority over existing weapons. At the same time, the new rifle received a bayonet based on a similar unit of the existing sample.


According to some data, during the development of a promising weapon for replacing the Berdan rifle, it was proposed to abandon the traditional needle bayonet and use a cleaver. Nevertheless, supporters of waste solutions managed to defend the existing structure and "push through" its use in the new project. At the same time, it was proposed not only to borrow a ready-made blade, but to create a new version of it, refined taking into account the operating experience of the weapon and the requirements for the advanced rifle. Thus, from the point of view of general ideas, the Mosin rifle bayonet represented a further development of the “Berdanka” blade. It should be noted that in the future, some rifles did receive bayonets with knife-like blades, however this was a necessary measure.

Mosin rifle bayonets
The Red Army soldiers are studying bayonet fighting. Photo of Wikimedia Commons


The overall architecture of the first bayonet for the Trilinek corresponded to the structure of the bayonet for the Berdan rifle. At the same time, the design was refined in accordance with new calculations and experience with the use of existing weapons. As a result, the size and weight of the bayonet, as well as some of its elements, have changed. To fasten the bayonet on the rifle barrel, it was still suggested to use a tubular bushing with a clamp. However, the blade is now proposed to attach to the tube without any additional supports, providing removal from the barrel. To mount the bayonet no longer needed special emphasis on the barrel.

The tubular bushing had a thickened rear end and a shaped slot in the middle. With the help of the latter, the sleeve should be in contact with the front sight, and also ensure the correct interaction of the yoke with the barrel. Fixing the bayonet on the barrel was carried out using a metal clamp with a screw. For ease of use of the weapon, the relatively long ends of the clamp were brought to the same side as the blade. Installing the bayonet on the barrel was made as follows. It was necessary to put the sleeve on the muzzle of the barrel and turn the bayonet to the desired angle in a clockwise direction. In this case, the angle of rotation, depending on the series and manufacturer, fluctuated within 30-90 degrees. The blade of the mounted bayonet was to the right of the barrel.

The blade of the new bayonet had a four-sided needle shape. For greater rigidity on the side surfaces of the bayonet there were valleys. To sharpen, as before, it was proposed only the edge. At the same time, it had the shape of a screwdriver, which allowed not only attacking the enemy, but also using a bayonet as a screwdriver when servicing a weapon. The lack of sharpening on the side faces should have ensured the safe operation of the weapon with the bayonet attached.


Bayonets of the 1891 sample. Photo by Zemlyanka-bayonets.ru


The total length of the bayonet for the Trilinek was 500 mm - it was noticeably shorter than the rifle of Berdan rifle. The length of the tubular bushing was 70-72 mm with an inside diameter of 15 mm. The blade accounted for 430 mm from the total length of the product. Due to some technical and technological differences, the weight of the bayonets fluctuated within certain limits. Basically, this parameter ranged from 320-325 to 340-345.

It is known that the first batch of serial bayonets for the new rifle was ordered not to Russian industry, but to a foreign enterprise. In 1891, the order for the production of rifles with bayonets was issued to the French factory Chatelleraut. From 1892 to 1895, this enterprise supplied 509539 rifles to the Russian army, equipped with four-sided needle-bayonets. The bayonets of French production had some characteristic features, thanks to which, in particular, they were obtained more easily by later products made in Russia.

The most notable difference in the French bayonets was the construction of the blade's blades. These grooves began immediately after attaching the blade to the tube, while Russian bayonets had a significant gap between the anchorages and the valleys. Another difference was in the shape of the part connecting the blade and the sleeve. Due to the wider slot in the tube, the bayonet had to be rotated 90 ° during installation. Finally, there were noticeable differences in labeling: size of letters, location of stamps, etc.


Sleeve for fastening the bayonet. Photo Zemlyanka-bayonets.ru


From the point of view of the main features of the design, the Mosin rifle bayonet was a further development of the blade “Berdanki”. Such features have affected the guidelines for the use of weapons. New rifles, like the old ones, were prescribed to shoot with fixed bayonets, which made it possible to reduce the effect of the derivation during the flight of a bullet. Store and carry weapons also followed with a bayonet. To remove it was required only when traveling by rail or road. In all other situations, including during the battle, the bayonet was to be located on the rifle barrel.

The first three-line rifles and bayonets for them were produced in France, but later the production of these weapons was transferred to Russian enterprises. Weapons produced in Tula, Izhevsk and Sestroretsk. New domestic bayonets were produced in accordance with the project, but outwardly and in design they differed from weapons made by French industry.


Battle ends of bayonets, made in the form of a screwdriver. Photo Zemlyanka-bayonets.ru


For several decades, the bayonet for the Mosin rifle did not undergo any changes and, from a certain time, were issued only in Russia. Nevertheless, in the future, the list of countries-manufacturers added another item. The beginning of the First World War led to the need to increase the release of weapons, but the Russian industry could no longer cope with new orders. Because of this, there were contracts with US companies. The Remington and Westinghouse plants were supposed to produce about 2,5 a million rifles and the same number of bayonets. American-made weapons were similar to French, and also had similar characteristics.

Before the 1917 revolutions, Russia managed to get no more than 750-800 thousand American Trehlinek. Due to the change of power and the difficult economic situation, the Russian side could not pay for and pick up new batches of weapons, which caused problems with the status of these products. The problem was solved by the US government. Wishing to support factories that were experiencing economic difficulties, the state bought back the rifles produced but not delivered to the customer and transferred them to the National Guard. Some of these weapons also went to the army. Since the acceptance of "unclaimed" rifles and bayonets was carried out by the US military, these weapons received the appropriate marks.


Kabakov-Komaritsky construction bayonet fastenings. Photo Bayonet.lv


The development of the bayonet to the three-line rifle was not conducted until a certain time. New modifications of this weapon, including serial ones, appeared only after the creation of the Soviet Union. Over the next few decades, a number of modifications of the basic bayonet were created, differing from each other and from the original structure with some features and even purpose. Part of the bayonet modifications successfully passed all the necessary tests, and then entered the series.

The first new modification of the bayonet was training. In the twenties, a new design of the bayonet was proposed, which allowed the fighters, with the use of appropriate means of protection, to work out methods of bayonet combat in joint exercises. The training bayonet differed from the combat design of the "blade" and its mounts. The latter were made in the form of two metal plates with holes for two screws or rivets. Between the plates was placed a flexible plate simulator of the bayonet, fixed in place with screws / rivets. By its dimensions, the flexible blade simulator corresponded to a combat product. For safe use of the combat end of the simulator was bent and formed a loop.


Bayonet arr. 1891 / 30 Photo of Wikimedia Commons


According to some reports, the training flexible bayonets were made not only by arms factories, but also by sports equipment factories. In addition, there is information about the continuation of the production of such products until the sixties. Training bayonets could be used with both combat and training Mosin rifles. During the Great Patriotic War, the training bayonets were converted into combat ones: for this purpose, a blade blade of handicraft was installed in the mountings.

At the end of the twenties, work began on the modernization of the Trehlineyka, which led to the emergence of Mosin rifle arr. 1891 / 30 One of the areas of modernization was the creation of a new bayonet, which differs from the base one with more advanced fixings. Engineers Komaritsky and Kabakov created a new version of the system for installing a bayonet on a rifle, which included a spring latch and the earpiece of the gunsmith design Panshin.

From the basic version of the new bayonet differed in the design of the tubular sleeve. On its side surface there was a large slot connected to a small slot in the upper surface. Above the latter was a large frame of the frame. In fixing the blade located mechanisms latch. To install such a bayonet on the rifle, you had to put the tube on the barrel, running the front sight along the side slot, then turn the bayonet on 90 ° and put it on the latch. In this case, the blade appeared to the right of the trunk, and the open front sight - under the namushnikom.


Bayonet mount arr. 1891 / 30. Photo Bayonet.lv


In the near future, based on the design of Komaritsky-Kabakov, a new bayonet was developed, which was later used with a rifle mod. 1891 / 30 The design of the bayonet actually remained the same, but he lost his earbud. During the modernization, the rifle received its own defense of the flies, because of which it was possible to abandon the corresponding parts on the bayonet. In this configuration, the bayonet was mass-produced and delivered to the troops along with the upgraded rifle. It is noteworthy that the bayonets of the first series were completed with leather sheath, but later they were abandoned due to the lack of need for such products.

In 1943, a new version of the bayonet with original mounts was developed. Within the framework of the competition for the development of a promising bayonet, a design was proposed that allows both to dismantle the blade and fold it into the transport position. To do this, on the tubular sleeve installed several new parts. In the back of the bracket appeared with holes for screws or studs. On it, a blade with an elongated back part was supposed to be mounted. At the muzzle level, a movable latch with a ring for mounting on the barrel was provided. Thus, the new bayonet should be mounted on a rifle without the possibility of quick removal, however, it was possible to fold the blade. To move to the stowed position, the latch was moved forward and released the blade, allowing it to turn on the axis. Blade fit along the bed. Return to the fighting position was made by turning forward with the subsequent installation of the latch.

According to some reports, these bayonets were released in a relatively small series and were used only in tests. They did not go to the series, but they became the basis for a new bayonet, which, in turn, was issued in large batches and was used in the troops.


Bayonet attachment mechanism for carbine mod. 1944 g. Photo by Wikimedia Commons


For certain reasons, the new folding bayonet began to be produced in the 1943 year, but in the documents it is listed as a bayonet arr. 1944 d. Such a blade option was designed for Mosin carbines and, above all, different in size. At the same time there were differences in the design. Thus, instead of a tube with a shaped slot, a metal clamp with a hinge for the blade, rigidly mounted on the trunk, was used. The latch for fixing on the barrel remains the same. The total length of such a folding bayonet was 380 mm with a blade length of 310 mm.

Folding bayonet with rigid fixed fasteners was used only on Mosin carbines mod. 1944 of the year. This weapon was produced serially and delivered to the Red Army. In addition, part of the stocks of carbines in the future transferred to friendly states. Also within the framework of international cooperation, the USSR transferred production documentation to third countries. Production of license carbines was conducted in Hungary, China and other countries.

During the war, improvised modifications of bayonets for the Mosin rifle, based on the available parts, were also created. Thus, in Leningrad, during the blockade (according to other data, in the field workshops) bayonets with knife-shaped blades were made. In this case, a triangular mount was installed on the tubular sleeve, to which the blade was welded. As the latter, blanks for SVT-40 rifle bayonets or other similar products could be used. Such blades had a one-sided sharpening and dale on both side surfaces. For obvious reasons, the dimensions and weight of such products differed markedly and depended on the “raw materials”.


An improvised makeshift bayonet made using a non-standard blade. Photo Bayonet.lv


Rifles si Mosin in various versions were made until the mid-sixties of the last century and for several decades were one of the main types of small arms of the Russian, and then the Red Army. During this time, several modifications were made to the weapon itself, as well as bayonets for it. Depending on the requirements of the troops, removable or folding bayonets of various designs were developed, and, if necessary, an improvised modification was even created, which could be produced in conditions of a shortage of resources. Being an integral element of the rifle complex, Mosin rifle bayonets were actively used by soldiers during several wars. Thus, the bayonets of this weapon are worthy of consideration and study no less than the rifles themselves.


On the materials of the sites:
http://world.guns.ru/
http://bayonet.lv/
http://zemlyanka-bayonets.ru/
http://1941-1945.ru/
http://army.lv/

A detailed review of the various bayonets for the “Trilinek” with photos:
http://zemlyanka-bayonets.ru/forums/index.php?/topic/652-штык-к-винтове-мосина-обр1891-года /
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  1. D-Master
    D-Master 28 January 2016 06: 42
    +9
    Kirill thank you so much for another great article. Everything is very informative, detailed and on the case.
    1. Mik13
      Mik13 28 January 2016 16: 19
      0
      Quote: D-Master
      Everything is very informative, detailed and on the case.

      In general, yes, but here it is:
      New rifles, like the old ones, were ordered to shoot with mounted bayonets, which allowed to reduce the influence of derivation during the flight of a bullet.

      Can someone explain to me what the author wanted to say? Or is this a consequence of the lack of a habit of reading the contents of the clipboard when preparing an article?
      1. mahor
        mahor 28 January 2016 18: 17
        +2
        Can someone explain to me what the author wanted to say? Or is this a consequence of the lack of a habit of reading the contents of the clipboard when preparing an article?

        If the bayonet was located under the barrel, then the gases, reflected from its surface, deflected the bullet from the direction to the target ... bully
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 29 January 2016 11: 30
          0
          Quote: mahor
          then the gases, reflected from its surface, deflected the bullet from the direction to the target

          And what does derivation have to do with it? those. deflection of the bullet to the side of rotation due to the gyroscopic effect.
          1. mahor
            mahor 29 January 2016 16: 15
            0
            And what does derivation have to do with it? those. deflection of the bullet to the side of rotation due to the gyroscopic effect.

            Derivation is a consequence of crosswind action, and here the powder gases, leaving behind the bullet, overtake it and, reflecting off the surface of the bayonet, take the bullet up. drinks
            1. gross kaput
              gross kaput 30 January 2016 20: 08
              0
              Quote: mahor
              Derivation is a consequence of the side wind.

              Once again - at least a little to start with the basics, learn - Due to the rotation of the bullet in flight, the force of air resistance acts unevenly on different parts of the bullet. As a result, the bullet encounters greater air resistance of one of the sides and in flight more and more deviates from the firing plane in the direction of its rotation. This phenomenon is called derivation. The action of derivation is uneven and amplifies towards the end of the trajectory.
              http://www.shooting-ua.com/force_shooting/practice_book_16.htm
              1. Heapoiss
                Heapoiss 31 January 2016 22: 28
                0
                "The derivation action is uneven and intensifies towards the end of the trajectory."
                Let me disagree.
                The effect of derivation depends only on the speed of rotation of the bullet.
                In flight, due to air friction, the rotation should slow down, so the derivation should decrease ... The dependence on the distance is non-linear.
                The laws of physics, however ...
          2. Heapoiss
            Heapoiss 31 January 2016 22: 23
            0
            "due to the gyroscopic effect"
            Not this way. The gyroscopic effect just gives the stability of the bullet in flight, otherwise why weapons do rifled.
            Derivation in another: the bullet, under the influence of gravity, tends to move down.
            As a result, the pressure above the bullet is less than below. Accordingly, air friction, which prevents rotation, is stronger from below. Just this effect is called derivation.
            1. gross kaput
              gross kaput 2 February 2016 12: 06
              0
              Want to get into the wilds? kindly
              Konovalov, Nikolaev "external ballistics" Central Research Institute of Information 1979 DSP, this book contains full calculations of all aspects of external ballistics.
        2. Heapoiss
          Heapoiss 31 January 2016 22: 17
          0
          "gases reflected from its surface"
          Rather, the "weight distribution" (balance) of the rifle changed and, as a result, the shift of the aiming point.
          This has nothing to do with derivation.
      2. Heapoiss
        Heapoiss 31 January 2016 22: 13
        +1
        "Someone is able to explain to me what the author wanted to say?"
        I learned a new word "derivation", screwed it in ...
        Journalists they are such journalists ...
  2. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 28 January 2016 06: 52
    +5
    well written! Cyril - thanks !!!! A sensible informative article, I read it in the morning with pleasure! waiting for more .....
  3. V.ic
    V.ic 28 January 2016 07: 16
    +1
    A bullet, a znachitsa, a fool, and a bayonet, respectively, well done?
  4. Bosk
    Bosk 28 January 2016 07: 22
    11
    This summer I found ..., still could not remember what it reminds me of ... and this is Mosin’s blade!
    1. lysyj bob
      lysyj bob 28 January 2016 13: 15
      0
      In 1990, I "raised" a Mannlicher with an attached Mosin bayonet, bent "?" familiar.
  5. La-5
    La-5 28 January 2016 07: 46
    0
    Using a bayonet-needle by the 30s was a complete anachronism, the bayonet had to be constantly attached to the rifle, which made the rifle already long, even longer and uncomfortable, plus the rifle had to shoot with a bayonet, which was also an anachronism. Of course, the military knew all these problems and it was supposed to rearm the Soviet infantry on the SVT with a bayonet-knife, but the war as always made its own corrections and the Soviet infantrymen had to use an uncomfortable bayonet-needle.
    1. Moore
      Moore 28 January 2016 09: 57
      +5
      Well, in fairness, it should be noted that even the "optimistic" pre-war state No. 4/400 assumed that a rifle company should have:
      2 machine guns, 27 submachine guns, 104 self-loading rifles (SVT, SVD), 2 sniper rifles, 9 carbines, 11 rifles and 22 pistols or revolvers.
      Those. the ratio of "mosinki" and self-loading, in fact, 1: 5 - and this is in the combat unit of a rifle division. There is nothing to say about the rear.
      In other words, no one was going to send "anachronism" to retirement.
      1. lysyj bob
        lysyj bob 28 January 2016 13: 19
        +3
        Quote: Moore
        (SVT, SVD)


        I apologize, I will correct it - SVT-40 or ABC-36
        1. Moore
          Moore 29 January 2016 05: 21
          0
          Of course, ABC. I apologize, inertia of consciousness, you know ...
      2. La-5
        La-5 28 January 2016 14: 54
        0
        Quote: Moore
        Well, in fairness, it should be noted that even the "optimistic" pre-war state No. 4/400 assumed that a rifle company should have:
        2 machine guns, 27 submachine guns, 104 self-loading rifles (SVT, SVD), 2 sniper rifles, 9 carbines, 11 rifles and 22 pistols or revolvers.
        Those. the ratio of "mosinki" and self-loading, in fact, 1: 5 - and this is in the combat unit of a rifle division. There is nothing to say about the rear.
        In other words, no one was going to send "anachronism" to retirement.

        And who was talking about retirement? It was about rearmament, and this is not done in one year.
      3. gross kaput
        gross kaput 29 January 2016 13: 14
        0
        Quote: Moore
        Those. the ratio of "mosinki" and self-loading, in fact, 1: 5 - and this is in the combat unit of a rifle division.

        That’s what a byaka - in the rifle company, oddly enough, there were also "non-combatants" a foreman, a rider with a horse, a clerk and a messenger. In addition, there were calculations of group weapons - directly involved in the battle, but leading not from personal weapons but from group weapons - 3 calculations of 50-mm mortars for three people, 2 calculations of heavy machine guns for 4 people, for these categories they left mosinki, but that's all shooters in this state were armed with SVT.
      4. 2news
        2news 2 February 2016 12: 30
        0
        Quote: Moore
        2 machine guns, 27 submachine guns, 104 self-loading rifles (SVT, SVD), 2 sniper rifles, 9 carbines, 11 rifles and 22 pistols or revolvers.

        Where are the people in the company to collect such a breakthrough in weapons? After all, there were still machine guns ...
    2. shasherin.pavel
      shasherin.pavel 28 January 2016 10: 12
      12
      The bayonet easily turned into the stowed position, the rifle was shot from the bayonets at the factory, any experienced shooter could easily shoot the rifle when the shooter is in the stowed position ... If you find me a sniper shooting from a rifle with an attached bayonet, I’ll transfer a thousand to your account ... only sniper, otherwise you will start sending photos at the time of the battle. Incidentally, the three-sided bayonet left fewer injured than the wedge, and thereby fell under the ban from European countries. When wounded with a trihedral bayonet, any movement of a person covered the wound and internal hemorrhage resulted, which led to blood poisoning, in the absence of penicillin 100% death. When wounded with a blade, the blood comes out initially and less leads to internal hemorrhage. It’s like with a Turkish scimitar ... according to the memoirs of doctors of all the Russian-Turkish wars, the perfect weapon healed quickly and left very small scars, unlike European broadswords, which were very rarely killed, but left terrible scars .. like Otto Skorzeny’s, trail of a student duel on broadswords.
      1. Captain45
        Captain45 28 January 2016 12: 36
        +1
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        If you find me a sniper shooting a rifle at an attached bayonet, I will transfer a thousand to your account ...

        Do you speak? what Well, prepare the money, let’s just run through the VO archive. wink Last year on VO there was an article about snipers of the Great Patriotic War, and there in the article there were photos of snipers with both a "mosinka" and an SVT, and in the photo the "mosinka" were with bayonets attached. I don’t remember the name of the article, but what it is There is an iron fact on the VO. Maybe someone else from your colleagues remembers?
      2. mahor
        mahor 28 January 2016 18: 20
        0
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        The bayonet easily turned into the stowed position, the rifle was shot from the bayonets at the factory, any experienced shooter could easily shoot the rifle when the shooter is in the stowed position ... If you find me a sniper shooting from a rifle with an attached bayonet, I’ll transfer a thousand to your account ... only sniper, otherwise you will start sending photos at the time of the battle. Incidentally, the three-sided bayonet left fewer injured than the wedge, and thereby fell under the ban from European countries. When wounded with a trihedral bayonet, any movement of a person covered the wound and internal hemorrhage resulted, which led to blood poisoning, in the absence of penicillin 100% death. When wounded with a blade, the blood comes out initially and less leads to internal hemorrhage. It’s like with a Turkish scimitar ... according to the memoirs of doctors of all the Russian-Turkish wars, the perfect weapon healed quickly and left very small scars, unlike European broadswords, which were very rarely killed, but left terrible scars .. like Otto Skorzeny’s, trail of a student duel on broadswords.

        I assure you, this is not in the form of a bayonet. Any piece of iron will kill a person for one or two ... lol
        1. 97110
          97110 28 January 2016 20: 33
          +1
          Quote: mahor
          I assure you, this is not in the form of a bayonet. Any piece of iron will kill a person for one or two ...

          I assure you (with a capital letter, pay attention) that from a finger cut with a razor during the healing of a wound, the impressions differ significantly from those scratched by a nail. Try it, you will be pleasantly surprised. And to kill a person at a time or two ... Great experience, you need to understand?
          1. mahor
            mahor 29 January 2016 16: 18
            0
            I assure you (with a capital letter, pay attention) that from a finger cut with a razor during the healing of a wound, the impressions differ significantly from those scratched by a nail. Try it, you will be pleasantly surprised. And to kill a person at a time or two ... Great experience, you need to understand?

            II, naturlich. Especially a ramrod behind the ear or a pencil in the eye. Or a nail ... A lot of options. Just roll a rifle of this size? ... laughing
      3. Tra-ta-ta
        Tra-ta-ta 28 January 2016 22: 48
        0
        The bayonet easily turned over to the stowed position, the rifle was shot from the bayonets at the factory, any experienced shooter could easily shoot the rifle when the shooter is in the stowed position ...
        Do not forget what times it was ...
        If there was instructionforbidding to remove the bayonet, then the unauthorized actions of a fighter is a direct road to the 58 article ..
        With all the advantages of the rifle itself, the bayonet really created problems:
        .. over time, bayonet mountings led to loosening, firing accuracy deteriorated.
        http://militaryarms.ru/oruzhie/vintovki/mosina/
    3. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 28 January 2016 15: 52
      +1
      "To use a bayonet-needle by the 30s was a complete anachronism" ///

      Absolutely.
      The length of the Mosin rifle with a bayonet is 173 cm!
      Above average human height in the 40s.
      Do not turn, do not turn, more pricked themselves and their backs when
      sorties from trenches for attacks. Try to jump off the truck
      with such a long thorn.
      For the 1st World War there was still nothing, for the 2nd World War - absurdity.

      We suffered with the M-16 100 cm long because of its exorbitant length, and
      there is still 73 cm ... belay
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 28 January 2016 20: 21
        0
        You suffered with the M-16 100 cm long because of its exorbitant length, and continue.
        And the Germans and the Finns got tired, with their bayonets, knives, against the "needle".
        And nobody injured the neighbors, they thought.
    4. mahor
      mahor 28 January 2016 18: 18
      -8
      Quote: La-5
      Using a bayonet-needle by the 30s was a complete anachronism, the bayonet had to be constantly attached to the rifle, which made the rifle already long, even longer and uncomfortable, plus the rifle had to shoot with a bayonet, which was also an anachronism. Of course, the military knew all these problems and it was supposed to rearm the Soviet infantry on the SVT with a bayonet-knife, but the war as always made its own corrections and the Soviet infantrymen had to use an uncomfortable bayonet-needle.

      while valiant fighters lost in 1941 2 million SVT rifles ... lol
  6. parusnik
    parusnik 28 January 2016 07: 59
    +5
    He served, comrade Shtyk .. Thank you for the article, I read it with interest ..
  7. alex-cn
    alex-cn 28 January 2016 08: 07
    +1
    I had no idea about the knife bayonet of a mosquito ... Thank you.
  8. semirek
    semirek 28 January 2016 08: 09
    +4
    A very informative article, it turns out, the Mosin rifle is the same symbol of Russia as the Kalashnikov assault rifle, the Russian arms school.
    The Great Patriotic War, although it was a war of engines, was never canceled by bayonet attacks, but it was not feared by the Russian bayonet, like hell incense.
    Glory to the Russian gunsmiths! Glory to the Russian army!
    1. shasherin.pavel
      shasherin.pavel 28 January 2016 10: 26
      10
      Quote: semirek
      Nemchura was afraid of the Russian bayonet
      New battle, before the USSR was admitted to the Olympic Committee, there was such a sport as "bayonet battle" with rubber bayonets on rifles. Imagine a master of sports in "bayonet fighting" in hand-to-hand combat. I remember the memoirs of a veteran who described a breakthrough from the encirclement in 1941. "The captain, the" bayonet combat "instructor, put us with a wedge so that we would protect his flags and rear, and with the Mosin rifle went through the German formation like a red-hot knife through butter. There was a small cut on the forehead, and the Germans lay dead. Such was the power of the suggestion that the bayonet pierced the bridge of the nose ... "Only once I read about this, believe it or not.
      1. Alex
        Alex 28 January 2016 11: 14
        +5
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        before the USSR was admitted to the Olympic Committee, there was such a sport as "bayonet fighting" with rubber bayonets on rifles. Imagine a master of sports in "bayonet fighting" in hand-to-hand combat.

        My childhood fencing trainer practiced fencing on carbines. Once he showed us in the classroom, an impressive sight.
        1. Was mammoth
          Was mammoth 28 January 2016 21: 04
          +2
          Quote: Alex
          Once he showed us in the classroom, an impressive sight.

          He served with SCS. The bayonets were knife, but on several carbines-needle.
          Our battalion commander was a master of fencing. Several of them without a chance. He had a carbine, probably a third of the time in the air flew when intercepted for the next reception.
      2. mahor
        mahor 28 January 2016 18: 23
        +1
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        Quote: semirek
        Nemchura was afraid of the Russian bayonet
        New battle, before the USSR was admitted to the Olympic Committee, there was such a sport as "bayonet battle" with rubber bayonets on rifles. Imagine a master of sports in "bayonet fighting" in hand-to-hand combat. I remember the memoirs of a veteran who described a breakthrough from the encirclement in 1941. "The captain, the" bayonet combat "instructor, put us with a wedge so that we would protect his flags and rear, and with the Mosin rifle went through the German formation like a red-hot knife through butter. There was a small cut on the forehead, and the Germans lay dead. Such was the power of the suggestion that the bayonet pierced the bridge of the nose ... "Only once I read about this, believe it or not.



        Easily, the same with a sword!
      3. 2news
        2news 28 January 2016 20: 40
        0
        Quote: shasherin.pavel
        "The captain, the" bayonet combat "instructor, put us with a wedge so that we would protect his flags and rear, and with the Mosin rifle went through the German formation like a red-hot knife through butter. There was a small cut on the forehead, and the Germans lay dead. Such was the power of suggestion that the bayonet pierced the bridge of the nose ... "

        The secret was simple. The captain followed the lieutenant and wet the Germans from the captured Walter.
        In general, fairy tales should not be retold.
      4. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 28 January 2016 21: 49
        -1
        shasherin.pavel "Can you imagine a master of sports in" bayonet fighting "in hand-to-hand combat."
        During the defense of Stalingrad, we had the hefty German paratroopers throwing bayonets through a bayonet through themselves. I don’t remember who I read about it. No matter how Chuikov recalled.
      5. alex86
        alex86 28 January 2016 22: 41
        0
        I read this, and such a technique - with a bayonet in my face - was taught to everyone. The main effect in the speed of blows is that you don’t need the reverse movement to extract from the wound, and the psychological effect is that the enemy decided that he died (will die). How reliable is all this - I don’t know, but I read it.
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. 97110
        97110 28 January 2016 20: 46
        +1
        Quote: mahor
        The Germans fired a machine gun for 1 km and cut people in half!

        You can feel the fighter of the ideological front, the commissar - one word. Cover your mouth and just write the system of the Germans machine gun with 0,3 normal range and "cutting" people in half. Along the way, check about the deflection of the bullet in the thousandths of the distance from this machine gun. Or is it using a bayonet with a knife blade to cut in half with this machine gun?
        1. mahor
          mahor 29 January 2016 16: 21
          0
          You can feel the fighter of the ideological front, the commissar - one word. Cover your mouth and just write the system of the Germans machine gun with 0,3 normal range and "cutting" people in half. Along the way, check about the deflection of the bullet in the thousandths of the distance from this machine gun. Or is it using a bayonet with a knife blade to cut in half with this machine gun?

          Instead of trending, you would find Simonov’s films about the cavalry fighters of the three Orders of Glory. Watch an interview with a footman! am
      2. 2news
        2news 28 January 2016 20: 56
        +3
        Quote: mahor
        The Germans fired a machine gun for 1 km and cut people in half!

        Well, half and half. At a distance of 720 m and further, a bullet hit from an MG42 did not guarantee anything. Those. even the destruction of the enemy was not guaranteed. And you are "in half".
        Although, about "going to the bayonet" agree with you. It is impossible to come up with more delirium. Although in the cinema it is somehow so heroized. It is not clear just why.
        In general, the bayonet is an element of the era before the massive use of automatic weapons. Already in WW2, it is out of date. But on the Soviet-German front, it was still possible to use it. The fact is that the level of arms of the parties on this front just roughly corresponded to the level of 1MV.
        1. mahor
          mahor 29 January 2016 17: 03
          0
          Maschinengewehr 34 "MG-34".

          Cartridge: 7,92x57 Mauser.
          The mass of the "body" of the machine gun with a bipod: 12,10 kg.
          The total length of the "body" of the machine gun: 1219 mm.
          Barrel length: 627 mm.
          Rifling: 4 right-handed with a stroke length of 240 mm.
          Barrel weight: 2,0 kg.
          Muzzle velocity: 775 m / s (55 bullet).
          Target range:
          from a bipod 2000 m .;
          from the machine 3000 m
          Effective range:
          from a bipod 550 m .;
          from the machine 1800 m

          Rate of fire 800-900 rds / min.
          Combat rate:
          in short bursts 60 / 120-150 rds / min .;
          long bursts of 300-400 rds / min.
          Catering:
          tape for 50,100, 250 rounds;
          75-round double-drum magazine.
          1. 2news
            2news 29 January 2016 18: 08
            0
            Quote: mahor
            Effective range:
            from a bipod 550 m .;
            from the machine 1800 m

            This is not the indicator. There is still an effective range. For MG34, this figure was 760 m. Then the "options" began.
      3. semirek
        semirek 28 January 2016 21: 06
        0
        Where are you from?
      4. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 28 January 2016 21: 50
        +1
        mahor "only commissars could run into the bayonet - ***** you. The machine gun of the Germans fired for 1 km and cut people in half!"
        What a nonsense.
        1. mahor
          mahor 29 January 2016 17: 07
          0
          See specifications above ... drinks
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. 2news
      2news 28 January 2016 22: 29
      -3
      Quote: semirek
      Mosin's rifle is the same symbol of Russia as the Kalashnikov assault rifle-Russian arms school.

      The Russian infantry rifle of 1891/10 (under the Bolsheviks was called the Mosin rifle) is actually a kind of symbol of the Russian imperial weapons school. For reference, it was a European rifle with the worst performance characteristics.
      AK really is a symbol of the Soviet arms school. I will not dwell on a misunderstanding like AK-47 / AKM. Even in the USSR they quickly realized how they screwed up with him, so they quickly got rid of him. But the AK-74 is a European (better to say amero-European) automatic (SMG according to the world classification) with the worst performance characteristics. Moreover, while NATO countries produced automatic rifle ballistic assault rifles, the USSR produced automatic assault rifle ballistic assault rifles. Feel the difference, what's called. Those. the situation is about the same as in imperial Russia with a rifle.
      I'd like to hope that Russia will be able to eliminate this gap. The ice began to break. A more or less normal cartridge for an army pistol has already been adopted (in the USSR this never happened at all) and a weapon on it (PY). A platoon machine gun (traditionally called a company machine gun in Russia, although in the world it is GPMG) has already been adopted by the Pecheneg. The point is small, replace the AK-74 with an automatic rifle at least with a minus ballistics of an automatic rifle. The largest of the dead cartridge 5,45x39 mm can not be squeezed out, but at least I really want to see it. And really. So, we are waiting.
      1. mahor
        mahor 29 January 2016 17: 06
        0
        I will not dwell on a misunderstanding like AK-47 / AKM. Even in the USSR they quickly realized how they screwed up with him, so they quickly got rid of him. But the AK-74 is a European (better to say amero-European) automatic (SMG according to the world classification) with the worst performance characteristics.

        With AK-47 fights half the world ... laughing drinks
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. 2news
          2news 29 January 2016 18: 14
          0
          Quote: mahor
          With the AK-47 is fighting half the world ..

          Even more. Because most warring wildernesses in the world. And those countries where the life of fellow citizens are valued did not even think of equipping them with AKMs.
          1. mahor
            mahor 29 January 2016 19: 34
            0
            Even more. Because most warring wildernesses in the world. And those countries where the life of fellow citizens are valued did not even think of equipping them with AKMs.

            Then what do you think is better? AK-16? Fin-fall? Heckler Koch?
            1. 2news
              2news 29 January 2016 20: 21
              0
              Quote: mahor
              Then what do you think is better?

              Many things. Even the AK-74 at the 5,45x39 mm doppler cartridge is noticeably better than the AKM. There is nothing to say about weapons on the M855 cartridge.
              1. mahor
                mahor 29 January 2016 23: 44
                0
                Many things. Even the AK-74 at the 5,45x39 mm doppler cartridge is noticeably better than the AKM. There is nothing to say about weapons on the M855 cartridge.

                What about AK-12? Or AEK-971?
                1. 2news
                  2news 30 January 2016 00: 14
                  0
                  Quote: mahor
                  What about AK-12? Or AEK-971?

                  What to talk about them? It’s too early yet. Still only rumors. And so, according to rumors, the A-545 looks pretty good.
      2. aws4
        aws4 31 January 2016 06: 42
        +2
        they remove you and you crawl out again under a different name ...))))))))))))))))))) will you repeat the questions that I asked you about two months ago?
  9. Captain45
    Captain45 28 January 2016 08: 11
    18
    And again, as in the previous article about the bayonet for the Berdan rifle, the author writes:spearhead. Moreover, it had the form of a screwdriver, which allowed not only to attack the enemy, but also to use the bayonet as a screwdriver when servicing weapons.I do not agree with him and refer to the article cited by me in the last discussion "Russian bayonet" http://topwar.ru/33946-russkiy-shtyk.html , where it says: "It's time to remember one more interesting feature of the Russian bayonet, its sharpening. It is often called a screwdriver. And even very serious authors write about the dual purpose of the bayonet, they say, they can stab the enemy and unscrew the screw. nonsense, of course.
    For the first time, sharpening a bayonet blade not on a sharp point, but on a plane similar to the tip of a screwdriver, appeared on newly manufactured bayonets for the Russian rapid-firing 6 linear rifle arr. 1869 g. ("Krnka system") and tetrahedral bayonets to the infantry 4,2-linear rifle arr. 1870 g. ("Berdan system number 2"). Why was she needed? Do not loosen screws explicitly. The fact is that the bayonet must not only be “thrust” into the enemy, but also quickly removed from it. If a bayonet sharpened on a point stuck into a bone, then it was difficult to remove it, and a bayonet sharpened on a plane seemed to bypass a bone without getting stuck in it.". And try to unscrew the small screw yourself with a half-meter screwdriver without a handle wassat You can, of course, but it’s painfully dreary, especially since the rifle’s accessory kit included a screwdriver designed for disassembly. So why torment and hammer nails with a microscope. I leave the article unrated.
    1. Bat
      Bat 20 July 2017 20: 48
      0
      My dear, read on nete the instruction about Mosya, there Russian is written in white and painted on what and how to unscrew. After all, not only rifles have bolts ....
  10. Bosk
    Bosk 28 January 2016 08: 32
    +2
    By the way, in the Second World War, the Germans used needle bayonets, for example, in the photo you can see a bayonet from the "Frenchman" MAC36 found in the region of the Courland boiler, which is characteristic that everything was found practically in one place, this is the kind of "assortment" that was going on at the end of the war ...
    1. Grishka cat
      Grishka cat 28 January 2016 13: 48
      +1
      Only it seems to me that this is a bayonet for FG-42. Maybe I'm wrong.
      1. Bosk
        Bosk 28 January 2016 17: 10
        0
        The "German" seemed to have a round "back of the head", but this one "flattened" on both sides ...
  11. rusmat73
    rusmat73 28 January 2016 09: 28
    +1
    interesting and informative! good Thank you for broadening your horizons! yes
  12. surrozh
    surrozh 28 January 2016 09: 28
    0
    Still, it is not clear what was better suited for effective "incapacitation" of the enemy - a wide blade or a thrust.
    1. Poppy
      Poppy 28 January 2016 09: 42
      +2
      shot best
      1. Predator
        Predator 28 January 2016 14: 32
        +2
        And much. As veterans said, those who didn’t have time to shoot each other in rapprochement converged in melee. In general, the saturation of troops with automatic weapons reduced the effectiveness of bayonet attacks to a clean zero. Yet in the PMV for melee it is recognized as a sapper blade or gun better than a bayonet .
        1. semirek
          semirek 28 January 2016 18: 29
          +3
          I don’t agree with you, imagine our attack - the soldiers burst into the first line of the enemy trenches and it’s easier to get a bayonet and once to reload the rifle from above.
          The German goes on the attack with an attached bayonet, and you throw a three-ruler, grab a scapula on the enemy, and how do you get it? The sapper blade was used when there was simply nothing to fight back.
          1. 97110
            97110 28 January 2016 20: 56
            +1
            Quote: semirek
            I do not agree with you, imagine

            I didn’t use hostility. I think you are also just trying to imagine ... There was such a pissed German - Erich Maria Remarque. He wrote novels about WWI, autobiographical. Here he described in some detail why he WALKED INTO THE HAND-TO-HAND SHOVEL. Read it. I'm not sure, but like in "All Quiet on the Western Front."
            1. semirek
              semirek 28 January 2016 21: 03
              +2
              Honestly, I don’t read Germans, all evil is from them. We have enough of our own, Russian memoirists - we have something to read and understand how it really was.
              1. 97110
                97110 29 January 2016 12: 42
                0
                Quote: semirek
                Honestly, I don’t read Germans, all evil from them.

                How lovely! Strongly said. The true winner of Germany! With pleasure I put a plus.
                PS. Do you read English and Americans either? It’s all evil from them, it’s been decided for a long time in VO.
              2. mahor
                mahor 29 January 2016 17: 09
                0
                Honestly, I don’t read Germans, all evil is from them. We have enough of our own, Russian memoirists - we have something to read and understand how it really was.

                How is it in our opinion: theirs are spies, and our scouts ... bully drinks
            2. Robert Nevsky
              Robert Nevsky 28 January 2016 23: 21
              +1
              Father greatly appreciated Remarque. Unfortunately, I never read "All Quiet on the Western Front." A very hard and true book about the war.
    2. Captain45
      Captain45 28 January 2016 12: 42
      +3
      Quote: surozh
      Still, it is not clear what was better suited for effective "incapacitation" of the enemy - a wide blade or a thrust.

      "And a wooden dagger is good if the heart is made of iron." (Eastern proverb) hi
  13. Seraphimamur
    Seraphimamur 28 January 2016 10: 30
    +3
    Why did Russia refuse a trihedral bayonet? As always regretted the enemies?
    A good article I put a plus.
    1. Predator
      Predator 28 January 2016 14: 26
      0
      Well, except for hand-to-hand combat, it is no longer needed anywhere, but the blade has more options for different uses. Although in the area of ​​Glinka, I found a bayonet that served as ground for the radio station.
    2. 97110
      97110 28 January 2016 20: 58
      0
      Quote: Seraphimamur
      Why did Russia refuse a trihedral bayonet?

      The mosquito has a tetrahedral.
      1. Bat
        Bat 20 July 2017 20: 45
        0
        There was a trihedron
  14. Grishka cat
    Grishka cat 28 January 2016 13: 52
    0
    By the way, during WWI, Germans and Austrians used Russian trophy rifles and used blade-type ersatz bayonets.
  15. Orionvit
    Orionvit 28 January 2016 17: 21
    +2
    The article is very good, but again some oppositionist was found and put a minus. For any good article, there are minus signers. This suggests that the enemies are not sleeping and grazing amicably on the pages of the VO, to at least spoil it.
  16. Denis Skiff
    Denis Skiff 28 January 2016 17: 38
    +1
    Yes, bayonet fighting is not for you muhra muhra. The bayonets only raised the enemy.
  17. semirek
    semirek 28 January 2016 18: 17
    0
    In the Museum of the Battle of Stalingrad in Volgograd, there is an "Afghan" section - there is exhibited a Chinese "Kalashnikov", AKM, with a three-edged bayonet, it is more authentic than a standard bayonet-knife, apparently bayonet attacks are still relevant in our time. he tore the body to pieces being thrust into the enemy, the bayonet was a knife, cut the body but did not tore it, my father had a decent scar on the left side --- the German bayonet had passed in passing, if the triangular ripple had passed? bochin.
  18. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 28 January 2016 20: 57
    +1
    "Well, except for hand-to-hand combat, it is no longer needed anywhere, and the blade has more opportunities for different uses."

    Well, yes it is. Only probably very stupid ..... they said "if you need a dagger once in a lifetime, you should wear it all your life on your belt." Don't be offended, but understand why I am telling you this.
    If you take a modern bayonet-knife, you will cut the barbed wire with it, you will open the tin can, shave the fat, shave, and maybe you will poke your teeth ... Yes, but you haven’t been there for a long time ... Killed in a bayonet attack.
    1. 2news
      2news 28 January 2016 22: 33
      -1
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      If you take a modern bayonet-knife, you will cut the barbed wire with it, you will open the tin can, shave the fat, shave, and maybe you will poke your teeth ... Yes, but you haven’t been there for a long time ... Killed in a bayonet attack.

      So maybe you should not regret it? The one who, in the era of mass use of automatic weapons, ran into a bayonet attack. The soldier is given a head not only to wear a helmet or cap.
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 30 January 2016 22: 12
        -1
        And you advise the American Marines to abandon the bayonet. At the same time, tell them about the "era of mass use of automatic weapons."
        That would be to listen to what address you will be sent.
        1. 2news
          2news 31 January 2016 01: 12
          -1
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          And you advise the American Marines to abandon the bayonet. At the same time, tell them about the "era of mass use of automatic weapons."
          That would be to listen to what address you will be sent.

          The opinion of the American Marine is interesting to me. But only in the 334th turn. The opinion of individuals who could not understand the difference between M16A4 and M4A1 is basically not interesting to me.
  19. Severok
    Severok 28 January 2016 22: 40
    +1
    Bayonet fighting is well described in the novel "War" by Ivan Stadnyuk in the episode when the junior political instructor Ivanyuta spoke about the counterattack. "On the straight left, I throw my rifle forward and stab them in the face and neck! The wound is not fatal, but it falls like sheaves from the painful shock!" This is about the bayonets. In the Arctic, on Musta-Tunturi, bayonets were not fastened, they interfered. But in the amphibious assault on the carbines of sailors, the bayonet was always. Our infantry was always strong in bayonet combat, where bullets were not taken - the enemy was picked out in hand-to-hand combat with a bayonet.

    Now about the "machine guns, cutting in half from a kilometer." How many rotten German cartridges I have not come across in campaigns - 90% of them have a sheath lead bullet without a core. It was extremely rare to see with a core, and even then they were either armor-piercing or tracer. And they had only one cartridge - 7.92 for both Mauser and MG 39. This very lead one, after hitting a stone turns into a hard-to-recognize piece of metal, which can cause terrible wounds on a ricochet. But in order to cut through the human body with such bullets, there must be an extremely small shooting distance (maximum 100 meters), they must shoot from the machine. from the bipod, no matter how hard you try, it is problematic to put the bullets on the horizon evenly. Something like this.

    As for the submachine guns, then on Musta Tunturi everything is under your feet. The main thing is to get there and climb the ridge, where there was a front line. So, neither bullets from the TT or Luger, nor their shells came across there. In positional battles such cartridges were practically not used.
    1. mahor
      mahor 29 January 2016 17: 17
      +1
      Germans in battle:
  20. Robert Nevsky
    Robert Nevsky 28 January 2016 23: 24
    0
    Guys, I have a bayonet - either from Berdana-2, or from Mosin. He remained from the great-grandfather of WWI.
    Maybe tomorrow I'll post a photo ...
  21. mahor
    mahor 29 January 2016 17: 18
    0
    Germans in Stalingrad:
  22. mahor
    mahor 29 January 2016 17: 22
    0
    The MG-Z4 machine gun was mounted on the "Lafet-Z4", equipped with a telescopic sight, with a threefold increase, the aimed firing range increased to two, two and a half kilometers.
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 29 January 2016 18: 23
      0
      mahor commenting on your revelations doesn’t even make sense - you can explain to a person who is at least a little in the subject - and unfortunately your level of knowledge is not just low - they are not. 2-2,5 firing from the machine gun is exclusively not direct fire over the areas, tightening the latches of the machine and in the case of the gun carriage 34 turning on the automatic dispersion mechanism.
  23. mahor
    mahor 29 January 2016 19: 32
    0
    mahor commenting on your revelations doesn’t even make sense - you can explain to a person who is at least a little in the subject - and unfortunately your level of knowledge is not just low - they are not. 2-2,5 firing from the machine gun is exclusively not direct fire over the areas, tightening the latches of the machine and in the case of the gun carriage 34 turning on the automatic dispersion mechanism.

    The German machine gun is the best during the Second World War, and even now it will not yield to many. Could shoot in three modes: maximum fire, with dispersion and precisely. Let the soldier run to attack. He is shot from the flank (a typical situation in the Second World War), 10 bullets fall into him. One weighs 12,7 grams; he will get a hit of 968 kilograms ... drinks
    And we cannot make machine guns, well, there are no normal designers .... laughing
    1. 2news
      2news 29 January 2016 20: 57
      0
      Quote: mahor
      German machine gun - the best during WWII

      If I were you, I would not be so sure of that. And above all because of the "versatility". In general, the term "universality" in translation into Russian means "bad in each specific task." So the MG in the "bipod" version suffered from the fact that they were actually heavy machine guns firing cartridges for heavy machine guns, but somehow ended up on the bipod. And in the version "on the bench" they suffered from the fact (for MG42) that the barrel was cut off so that they could be used on a bipod and as a single one. Those. in all variants there were quite serious shortcomings.
      It was because of them that the Germans were forced to deal with such a dull wart-time shnyag as MP43 / StG44. Need forced.
      Therefore, the fact is that the Wehrmacht entered the war WITHOUT handbrake (LMG) and without a single machine gun (GPMG). And the attempt to adapt their machine tool (MMG) MG34 for these purposes ended in complete collapse. No one else in the world, and never, like the Germans did the right thing. Even in the USSR, where it was traditionally bad with personnel.
      Quote: mahor
      and even now it will not yield to many.

      If MG34 can be seriously considered for the role of the best machine tool of the times of 2MB, then now his train has long gone. Yes, and replaced him in 1942. And MG42, this is far from MG34. This one was of little use. No wonder it was no longer produced after 2MB (MG3, this is not MG42).
      Quote: mahor
      He will get a hit of 968 kilograms

      At a distance of 700 m, a total of approximately as much kgf * m will be obtained. So what? This is not arithmetic. Total figures are not appropriate here.
      Quote: mahor
      And we cannot make machine guns, well, there are no normal designers ...

      There is no competition. And without competition, it’s always bad. Although the last decisions on machine guns I just like. And the pistols. On the machines do not like.
      1. mahor
        mahor 29 January 2016 23: 46
        0
        On the machines do not like.

        Why? due to low pulse cartridge?
        1. 2news
          2news 30 January 2016 00: 04
          0
          Quote: mahor
          due to low pulse cartridge?

          There is no alternative to low-impulse cartridges. I am embarrassed by the contests. Why are they attached to a barrel 415mm long? No, I understand that in the old days there was no way out. But now it is full of alternative designs.
          In my opinion, it is necessary to establish the accuracy rate when firing automatic fire at the M16A4 level. In this case, extend the barrel to 500-510 mm (n / s ~ 940 m / s). And whoever can meet this norm will go to the next round. And in the second round to see who has more. Of course, in this case, the solutions should be sufficiently technological, reliable and inexpensive.
          True, there is one serious question, but can anyone get into the second round? The Americans in the M16A2 were still in HZ when they balanced the recoil momentum of 5,28 kgm / s (what to do, school). Recently in Russia it seems that they managed to balance 4,60 kgm / s (in the USSR they could not). At 940 m / s, the impulse will be 4,74 kgm / s. I wonder if they can balance such an impulse or not?
          1. mahor
            mahor 30 January 2016 00: 19
            0
            With such a barrel, apparently, you have to use the bullpup scheme ..
            1. 2news
              2news 30 January 2016 00: 58
              0
              Quote: mahor
              apparently, you have to use the bullpup scheme ..

              Not necessary. Americans in the M16 are completely dispensed with the usual.
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. Droid
            Droid 30 January 2016 21: 31
            0
            In my opinion, it is necessary to establish the accuracy rate when firing automatic fire at the M16A4 level.

            Is this some kind of norm? Do you even know that of all mass-produced machines with a low-pulse cartridge, accuracy is the best with AK74 bursts? And in terms of firing efficiency, is the AK74 superior to the M16A2?
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. 2news
              2news 31 January 2016 01: 03
              0
              Quote: Droid
              Do you even know that of all mass-produced machines with a low-pulse cartridge, accuracy is the best with AK74 bursts?

              And then. And pink elephants also come from these places. See the table and be surprised.
              Quote: Droid
              And in terms of firing efficiency, is the AK74 superior to the M16A2?

              Yeah. 33 times. At the same time, the DE M16A2 is 1738 J, and the AK-74 is 1377 J. Does this not bother you?
              1. Droid
                Droid 31 January 2016 10: 11
                0
                As usual, zero understanding. Lift me the eyelids and indicate where in the table the accuracy automatic fire?

                The muzzle energy of AKM is higher than that of AK74, but this does not make it more efficient.

                Well, specifically about the effectiveness of shooting and what it is. Quote from Nobleman ...
                The main was a comparative assessment of the effectiveness of firing from an AK74 assault rifle and from an M16A2 rifle. It consisted of two parts - experimental and theoretical. Experimental, on the frequency of hitting the target number 8 when shooting in short bursts, showed:
                1. when shooting while lying down, the AK74 and M16A2 are almost equivalent;
                2. when shooting while lying with your hand, the AK74 is 1,48 times better;
                3. when shooting from a standing position, the AK74 is better 1,2 times.
                The theoretical calculation of the effectiveness was carried out taking into account the results of accuracy of fire:
                1. when firing a single fire lying from an emphasis, accuracy from M16A2 is 1,44 times better;
                2. when firing in short bursts, accuracy from the AK74 assault rifle is better (by area) than from an M16A2 rifle: lying down from the stop - 2,5 times, lying down from the hand - 1,25 times, standing up from the hand - 1,2 times.
                Calculations from the source data showed:
                1. when shooting with single shots lying down from the stop, the M16A2 rifle exceeds the AK74 assault rifle by 1,28 times;
                2. when shooting in short bursts, the AK74 submachine gun surpasses the M16A2 automatic rifle: lying down from the stop - 1,03 times, lying down from the hand - 1,22 times, standing up from the hand 2,05 times.
                The report on the results of comparative tests concluded: “The AK74 submachine gun exceeds the M16A2 rifle by 1,34-1,43 times in terms of the frequency of hit when firing automatic fire (the calculation experiment), in single shots it is 1,28 times less due to the best 1,44-fold accuracy of the SS109 round of ammunition from the rifle M16A2 »

                V.N. Dvoryaninov "Combat cartridges of small arms" v.4, p.33
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                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. gross kaput
                  gross kaput 31 January 2016 14: 00
                  0
                  Droid, unfortunately, these data are from the crafty one - I’ll try to explain it on my fingers — you can conditionally equate the first shot in the queue to single in this case, even if the accuracy of the subsequent shots in the queue is better then due to the greater dispersion of the single (first) shot, the probability of hitting the target will be anyway less. but trying to compare technical accuracy is detached from practice, the machine is not a priori a sniper and the main thing for it is the probability of hitting a certain target at a certain range and the number of rounds needed for this - this is exactly what the military fits by placing not the accuracy tables but the probability tables on the NSD, well so the likelihood of hitting a typical target in We-16 and AK-74 will be the same, and everything else is interesting only to theoretical theorists.
                  1. Droid
                    Droid 31 January 2016 14: 20
                    0
                    There is just practice. For example, when shooting lying with your hands in bursts from AK74, growth is affected 1,48 times more often than from M16A2.
                    And in the NSD there are no tables of probability of defeat, but there are tables of the average consumption of cartridges for hitting a target in table conditions.
                    For reference, according to the table for hitting a running figure at 600 m, the best submachine gunner from a lying position from the stop requires an average of one shot, in table conditions. Also, according to the NSD DES AK74, up to 500 m. And the DES of a machine gun or machine gun is such a range at which a characteristic target is struck with probability 0,25. In other words, AK74 is necessary for hitting an average of 4 lines per 500 m. Because the DES is calculated for conditions close to combat, and the plates are given for tabular conditions.
                4. 2news
                  2news 31 January 2016 14: 15
                  0
                  Quote: Droid
                  As usual, zero understanding.

                  What should I do. It's your problems.
                  Quote: Droid
                  Raise my eyelids and indicate where in the table the accuracy of automatic fire?

                  Respected. You should have learned at least 3 words in English (20 shot group). Believe me, times are what you need.
                  Especially for you I’ll explain one of the columns, at a distance of 300 yards when firing from M16A2 with a burst of 20 rounds, all 15,75 bullets fall into a circle with a diameter of 20 inches. Under the same conditions, 74 bullets fall from an AK-21,6 into a circle with a diameter of 17 inches. Yards and inches in cm and translate meters yourself.
                  Quote: Droid
                  In the report on the results of comparative tests, the conclusion was made: “The AK74 submachine gun exceeds the M16A2 rifle by 1,34-1,43 times in the frequency of hits when firing with automatic fire (experiment calculation), 1,28 times less in single shots due to the best 1,44 times the accuracy of the battle of ammunition SS109 from the M16A2 rifle "
                  V.N. Dvoryaninov "Combat cartridges of small arms" v.4, p.33

                  Each has its own sources of information.
                  Only here is a strange thing. The Moscow Oblast apparently does not know about the figures of the report that leads the Nobles. Just recently a contest was held, the main condition of which was precisely improved accuracy of automatic fire AK-74. There were different mechanisms. Both lightweight and balanced. AND WHAT FOR? Why, if the accuracy of the AK-74 is already excellent (see Dvoryaninov's source)? Some of these two sides are clearly "not in the know", the source of Dvoryaninov or MO. I do not want to draw conclusions, only that foreign sources do not agree with the source of Dvoryaninov.
                  In addition, I draw your attention to the objects mentioned in the source of Dvoryaninov, these are AK-74 and M16A2. Those. weapons of those "glorious times" when ours were scouts, and their spies. Ours were submariners (knights of the deep sea, as an option), and their pirates. Therefore, the Soviet was definitely better than the non-Soviet. And you shouldn't believe this data.
                  1. Droid
                    Droid 31 January 2016 14: 29
                    0
                    It's your problems.

                    Exactly. Your problems.
                    You should have learned at least 3 words in English (20 shot group). Believe me, times are what you need.
                    Especially for you I’ll explain one of the columns, at a distance of 300 yards when firing from M16A2 with a burst of 20 rounds, all 15,75 bullets fall into a circle with a diameter of 20 inches. Under the same conditions, 74 bullets fall from an AK-21,6 into a circle with a diameter of 17 inches. Yards and inches in cm and translate meters yourself.

                    Do not carry nonsense. And do not confuse the queue with a group of shots, these are two different things. And the plate shows the sizes of groups of 20 shots, naturally these groups of 20 shots fired a single fire.
                    The Moscow Oblast apparently does not know about the figures of the report that leads the Nobles.

                    This is the data of the MO report, more precisely, the GRAU.
                    WHAT FOR? Why, if the accuracy of the AK-74 is already so good (see Dvoryaninov's source)?

                    I already wrote about your problems with understanding. I explain on the fingers:
                    1. Accuracy automatic fire AK74 frankly worthless.
                    2. Accuracy AK74 automatic fire is the best among all mass machines.
                    If it’s not clear, I will rephrase it - despite the crap accuracy of the AK74, it is even worse for everyone else.
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                      1. Droid
                        Droid 31 January 2016 15: 30
                        0
                        It’s funny. Nevertheless, you know how to make fun.
                        I’ve been a sinful thing all the way, I thought that shot group, this is the turn. And single-shot, these are single shots. And he was not mistaken.
                        If you are interested in the accuracy of a single fire, then try another table.

                        They thought badly. It’s immediately clear that you don’t understand anything.
                        It doesn’t even occur to you to think that 15,75 inches per 300 meters is only 40 cm. The diameter? A burst of 20 shots? You have not collapsed from oak?
                        So, for comparison. Extremely high accuracy in bursts (short) was obtained on an AO-63 experimental double-barreled submachine gun with a doublet rate of 6000 rpm, it was Sv * Sat = 11 * 11 cm per 100 m or 33 * 33 cm per 300 m. Do you know What is the core (sv * sb) dispersion? This is the best half hits, and the diameter will be 3 times more.
                        Fct short bursts 300 m gives a total median deviation of 14-13 cm, and the total dispersion is 8 times greater than 112-104 cm. And here the tales tell about the machine from which lying down 20 rounds accuracy of 7-8 times (by area) is better than that of a tank machine gun short bursts.
                      2. 2news
                        2news 31 January 2016 16: 53
                        0
                        Quote: Droid
                        You never even think that 15,75 inches per 300 meters is only 40 cm.

                        Can you figure it out? I admire you.
                        Quote: Droid
                        accuracy of 7-8 times (in area) is better than a tank machine gun in short bursts

                        Did you try to compare the recoil momentum? I will tell you, in PCT it is almost 2 times more.
                        And the "legendary mechanism" with the usual one from the famous manufacturer was not compared? No? Try to compare.
                  2. 2news
                    2news 31 January 2016 15: 09
                    0
                    Quote: Droid
                    And do not confuse the queue with a group of shots, these are two different things. And the plate shows the sizes of groups of 20 shots, naturally these groups of 20 shots fired a single fire.

                    It’s funny. Nevertheless, you know how to make fun.
                    I’ve been a sinful thing all the way, I thought that shot group, this is the turn. And single-shot, these are single shots. And he was not mistaken.
                    If you are interested in the accuracy of a single fire, then try another table.
                    By the way, a hint is clearly visible in the table that the M16A2 and AK-74 are weapons of different subclasses. The first is an automatic rifle. Second, assault rifle. And this is actually so. Therefore, comparing Constipation with the Volga is not entirely correct.
                    AK-74 is more correct to compare with M4A1. Although the latter is also not an assault rifle, but still it will be simpler than the M16A2.
                    Quote: Droid
                    This is the data of the MO report, more precisely, the GRAU.

                    So, they forgot about them? Does One Nobleman Remember? Or are they not reliable?
                    Quote: Droid
                    If it’s not clear, I will rephrase it - despite the crap accuracy of the AK74, it is even worse for everyone else.

                    Of course. And the pink elephants, which have proliferated throughout the world, are also "originally from the USSR". Because "Soviet means excellent."
                    1. Droid
                      Droid 31 January 2016 16: 17
                      0
                      Yawning, mixed up in a bunch of horses, people.
                      You first think about how to shoot from a M16A2 burst of 20 shots if it does not have the technical ability to shoot a burst of longer than 3 shots.
                      At the same time, admire this picture. Googling shooting errors and their impact on the probability of a hit.
                    2. 2news
                      2news 31 January 2016 16: 40
                      0
                      Quote: Droid
                      You first think about how to shoot from a M16A2 burst of 20 shots if it does not have the technical ability to shoot a burst of longer than 3 shots.

                      So, they fired from M16A3. Ballistically there is no difference.
                      Quote: Droid
                      At the same time, admire this picture.

                      I'd rather stare out the window.
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  • gross kaput
    gross kaput 29 January 2016 21: 08
    0
    How old are you child?
  • mahor
    mahor 29 January 2016 23: 47
    +1
    A.I.D. - The Germans went on the attack, under the cover of mortar and artillery fire. Mine fragments immediately hit my left leg and arm, but I did not leave the battlefield, the fragments of bones did not touch me. A sanitary instructor crawled up, bandaged me, and then a shrapnel hit her in the thigh. Now I had to bandage it. We went into a counterattack, I lay down with a machine gun near a boulder, they are firing at us so much that it became scary. I raised my head from the flap, and there is such a terrible feeling that all German bullets are flying only at you. The company commander shouts - "Shoot, your mother!". I’m back for the shield, the Germans counterattack, chains two hundred meters from us. Released on them three full tapes, and the German attack choked.

    G.K. - The first order you have for this fight?

    A.I.D. - For the next one. We held a good position, dug trenches of full profile. German tanks attacked us, some of the soldiers backed away and ran to the rear. They opened fire on our trench, and the carrier Grisha was seriously wounded by shrapnel. To the right of us was the calculation of the PTR, I look, and the entire calculation is already dead. I say to Fima - "Let's try to shoot at the tanks from the PTR", he nodded in the affirmative, and we crawled to the gun. On the third shot, I knocked out a German tank, about a hundred meters from our line of defense. The crew jumped out of the tank, and we, instantly returning to the "maxim", mowed them down with a machine gun. Company commander Shakhov saw all this, and after the battle he introduced us to the awards, me to the Order of the Red Star, and Roitman to the medal "For Courage". But then we did not have time to receive the awards, soon I was wounded, Roytman also left the hospital due to a serious injury, and Shakhov was killed. We went on the attack, he walked a little behind our chain. Fell ..., then they pass along the chain - "The captain was killed .." ..

    G.K. - If I am not mistaken, in the first, "unsuccessful" capture of the city of Siauliai, was it your regiment going in front?

    A.I.D. - So you are asking about the first assault on Shauliai? .. I don’t want to tell you ... Okay .... We burst into the city, got to the railway station, and there was a train: tanks with alcohol in a coupler. I am a non-drinker, Roitman too, and we stepped aside, and many pounced on alcohol, fired at the tanks, alcohol flowed in streams near our feet. Our tanks approached, about ten T-34s, all the crews immediately march to the tanks. A real pogrom. Everyone was drunk to hell, someone even started playing the accordion. It seemed to be quiet, no shooting, except for ours, "drunk", was not heard anywhere. The Germans appeared quite suddenly for us, tanks and infantry attacked from both sides, and we were no longer a rifle regiment, but a drunken rabble, and the officers could not organize a rebuff. Someone first ran in panic, the others rushed after him, but try to orient yourself in such an environment and run when half a liter splashes in you. In short ... few of us were lucky enough to get out of this station, we lost a lot there. Those who were lucky to survive, skidded without looking back six kilometers, including myself. But they took the machine gun with us. This is how it happened - "the first capture of Shaulai" ...

    G.K. - What was the firepower of your rifle company?

    A.I.D. - The company had only three machine guns of the Maxim system, two or three hand-held PDs, the soldiers had rifles and machine guns. We did not have captured German MG machine guns. more than 35-40 people, in fact we were a platoon. But this was the case in all battalions. Before the reinforcements arrive, the next day, a third remains in the ranks, and the rest - who is killed, who is wounded. We took four boxes of ribbons into battle - that's 1.000 rounds, we stuffed the ribbons ourselves by hand. We also had a four-liter flask with water for the machine gun casing. That's all our firepower ... The soldiers also carried grenades with them - "lemons" , and many tried to throw out anti-tank grenades, they were considered heavy ...
  • aleks177
    aleks177 25 February 2016 01: 08
    0
    I can't remember in whose notes, but I came across the opinion that knife bayonets were replaced with "awls" after military trials, during which soldiers from peasants "lost" excellent knives. A useful and necessary thing on the farm. Nowadays there are a lot of knives in shops, but at the turn of the century it was a little different, and the income of ordinary peasants ...
    So they replaced the knife bayonet with something unsuitable in the life of the peasant.
  • Bat
    Bat 20 July 2017 20: 41
    0
    Nonsense ...... a knife-shaped bayonet was called a “blockade”, and began to be issued in the besieged Leningrad, and not in a makeshift way. Learn the materiel. Useful.
  • Kirill38
    Kirill38 13 August 2017 08: 48
    0
    Quote: aws4
    they remove you and you crawl out again under a different name ...))))))))))))))))))) will you repeat the questions that I asked you about two months ago?

    Let more about the "best" PP writes - Thompson of course))))