Military Review

... And there is an opinion that the Panfilov feat is only a legend ...

88
The famous Panfilov warriors are now spoken differently. Many argue that there was no feat of twenty-eight fighters, they say, they were not able to resist the Nazi tanks. They say that Klochkov’s words “Russia is great, but nowhere to retreat, Moscow behind!” - a legend invented to raise the spirit of our army in those formidable years. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia: “The battle with these details is not mentioned in either Soviet or German reports ... The information that the information about the battle was received in the hospital from the mortally wounded participant of the battle, Natarov, is doubtful, since Natarov died in two days before the battle, November 14th ... There is no such military tactic with which 28 lightly armed soldiers in flat terrain conditions could successfully counter more than fifty attacking tanks with the support of motorized infantry ... ”And so on and so forth.


Many, many things that deny the feat of Panfilov written by historians and pseudo-historians after World War II. And in the State Archive of the Lipetsk Region I found excerpts from the front-line newspapers of that time. They contain stories about some Panfilovs. True, we are not talking about those warriors who fell in that terrible November battle. But these notes are strong touches to the general "portrait" of the division. And, reading the lines of seventy years ago, I believe in everything: in an unprecedented feat, in words about Moscow, and in "non-existent military tactics", which forces could stop tanks ...



Before reading - help-reminder of the division. It was formed in the summer of 1941 in Almaty from the citizens of the Kazakh and Kyrgyz SSR. On August 18, the division was deployed near Novgorod, and on October 5 near Moscow. I took the lane defensive on the Volokolamsk direction and October 15 entered into fierce battles - here was the unparalleled feat of twenty-eight heroes. On November 18, the division was transformed into the 8 Guards Rifle, and 23 was awarded the Panfilov honorary title. In January-April, 1942, the Panfilov members participated in the Demyansk operation. In March 1945, the division was encircled during the attack on the city of Saldus in Latvia. Only about three hundred people remained alive ...

And now - newspaper notes.

***

“Late in the evening, a broad-shouldered Kazakh warrior entered the dugout of the unit commander. Water ran down from a dark green cape. In his hands he held a rifle with an optical sight. It was Abil Nusunbayev - the head of the Panfilov’s sniper group, a brave warrior, a well-aimed gunman, the favorite of the unit. His name was already widely known outside the unit, it was very warmly told about him on the pages of Komsomolskaya Pravda.

He has just returned from an ambush.

- What are the successes, comrade senior sergeant? - asked the commander in response to the greeting of the sniper, holding out his hand.
- There is success. Naizabekov, Abdybekov, Madaminov and Shabekov again set the heat on the Fritz! Today they shot fourteen nazis. Well done boys!
- It's good! - said the commander, inviting the sniper to sit down.

Snipers, which told Nusunbayev, were his disciples. He instilled in them endurance, composure, the ability to wait, and then surely send a bullet. Under the guidance of his teacher, his wards comprehended accurate shooting techniques, became masters of their craft.

Abil Nusunbayev had a wealth of experience. He explained that a fighter should be able to disguise at any time of the year and day.

“You need to take cover like that,” he said, “to see everything ahead of you, and to be completely unnoticeable even in a few steps.”

I watch every step of my fighters. In the afternoon I go around ambushes. Together with the fighters, I often creep up to the Germans very closely, in practice I teach everything that is required. Accounting for the exterminated Nazis in our unit set exactly.

Now on account of Nusunbayev 62 personally destroyed the fascist to them. ” Newspaper “To the Battle for the Motherland!”, Summer 1942 of the year.



“Not sparing their own blood, nor life itself, in hard, hard fights, the Kazakh invaders of the German invaders smash, competing in courage and heroism with fighters of other nationalities. Heavy Kazakh hand, sharp his eyes, his bullet mark. So, Sergeant Abdybekov (mentioned in the last note, he is a student of Nusunbayev) killed 227 fascists.

Abdybekov wanted one thing: to exterminate the fascists as much as possible in the Novgorod region, near the town of Kholm, in the edge of the epic - here there were the first settlements of the Slavs! - where he, the famous sniper, was many months in a row. After destroying the 200 of the Nazis, Abdybekov said: “These bastards will no longer drink water from the Lovat River!” Lovat was dear to him, like the native rivers of Kazakhstan. Novgorod land was sweet to his heart, like a distant native sunny republic.

He hails from Buttermilk of the South Kazakhstan Region. Called to the army in July 1941 of the year. 14 May 1942, he was presented with a sniper rifle TV 291 b. From this rifle, he destroyed the Nazis 297. In one of the battles of 22 February 1944, Abdybekov died a brave death. At the grave of the deceased hero, his sniper rifle was presented to one of the best students of Abdybekov, guard, ordinary Amirali Osmanaliev, who destroyed the Nazis from his rifle 128 teacher.

In the 1944 year, on the day of the celebration of the three-year anniversary of the formation of the division, the command sent a delegation to Kazakhstan. Together with the delegation, an 291 TV rifle b and a combat passport were sent to it, which is now stored in the Central Republican Museum of the city of Almaty. ” The newspaper of the Kalininsky front "Forward to the enemy."

***

“It was near the Lovat River. Clenching his rifle tight in his hands, the young Red Army soldier Vasiliy Parkhomenko ran forward to assault enemy fortifications. At this time, an enemy mine exploded three meters from the fighter. Vasily felt a sharp pain in his right leg. He took a few more steps, but stumbled and fell ...

The fighter understood: his leg was killed, and he was also wounded in the chest. Call comrades for help? But he stopped himself: “You can’t take them away from the fight. The orderlies will come. ”
When the comrade of the wounded man stepped forward, a Hitlerite submachine gunner jumped out from behind the bushes, opened fire at the backs of our fighters. Overcoming pain, Parkhomenko gathered strength. He raised his rifle, aimed, and knocked down the enemy. Wounded Parkhomenko still felt in the ranks, trying to help the attackers.

Already in the hospital Vasya said: “I did not do enough. Only one fascist shot. " But anyone who fell to war, will say that Parkhomenko made a real feat. ” The newspaper "Soviet Guardsman", 1942 year.

***

“The name of the hero of the Soviet Union, Major General Panfilov, is pronounced with love and pride in all parts of our country. These Panfilov heroes in difficult days, when the enemy threatened Moscow, showed unparalleled resilience in battle, blocking the road to the Germans.

In the days of the Great Patriotic War, when the fate of the Motherland is being decided, fathers and children fight side by side, inspired by one desire - to destroy the enemy.

The daughter of Panfilov, who died the death of the brave, the Komsomol member Val, is worthy of her father-hero. She works at the front as a nurse. Without knowing, tired and fear, under the fire of the enemy, under brutal air bombardment, she does her job.



Somehow twenty German planes flew into the village where the medical center was located. Valya did not leave her post. The blast wave threw her into another room, wounded in the head. The wounded herself, she continued to assist the wounded soldiers.

Young nurse deserved universal respect. Steadfastly, she suffered the death of her father. She refused a vacation, a trip home: “I will stay at the front” ... ”The Komsomolskaya Pravda newspaper.

***

“... I will describe my meeting in the Kholmsky district with a young intelligence officer, a teenage hero who was only fourteen years old. Vanya Mikhalenko exterminated five fascists. Awarded the medal "For Courage".

Fate with Vanya is very tragic. In the fall of forty-one, fascists broke into the village of Maximovo, Kholmsky District, where Vanya lived. Looting and violence began. On the frosty day of January 1942, the fascists mounted machine guns on the outskirts of the village. Among those condemned to death were old men, women, children. Vanya stood next to three younger sisters, mother, grandmother. With tears in his eyes, he looked at the village set on fire by the fascists. “I also thought,” Vanya recalled, “where will we live?” What is this?"

Suddenly, there were machine-gun bursts. Shot by bullets, fell mother, grandmother, sisters. Vanya fell unconscious. This saved his life, late in the evening, when the moon rose, the boy woke up. He crawled out from under the numbed bodies. Gone to the forest. There he met with military intelligence officers, they helped the boy cross the front line. At his request, enlisted in the ranks of the Red Army. He fought with the Nazis - avenged the desecrated land.

In 1943, Ivan Mikhalenko was abandoned to the 4 guerrilla brigade, where he fights heroically in order to carry out a special mission by plane. ” The newspaper "In the battle for the Motherland!".

***

“Forever will remain in our memory of a tall Panfilov soldier Philip Demyanovich Kurinniy. About himself, he said this:

- There is a village of Otradnoe on the land of Kyrgyzstan, in the Tyup district. Before the war, in our village, everyone was engaged in peaceful labor: they grew bread, raised livestock, and I worked in animal husbandry, the collective farm was strong. The war began - our village sent six hundred of its sons to the front ...

During the days of the Great Patriotic War, the Red Army soldier Kurinn destroyed the guards near the 250 of the Nazis, destroyed five German tanks, one cannon, hit a German transport plane with a machine gun fire.

F.D. Kurinny died in battle on July 19 1944 of the year. He was buried in the village of Vidri, Ludvinsky District, in Latvia. ” "Komsomolskaya Pravda" from 19 August 1942 of the year.

***

“On the face of Anarbay Yerzhanov, a sly smile. He can't hide it. “Are you successful today?” They ask Yerzhanov. “You know, a little funny,” he replies. “It’s interesting to know how and where the German chief corporal will be looking for his squad?”

Cunning Yerzhanova reasonable. On this day, a sniper single-handedly destroyed nine soldiers - almost a whole detachment. Competing with other guardsmen snipers, Yerzhanov has 64 destroyed by a German on his combat score.

64 killed by a fascist - this is two months of great combat work. The German himself will not come to fly. He must be found, tracked down. Every morning, before leaving for ambush, snipers-guardsmen gather at their dugout. They have everything ready, everything is provided, checked. But the head of the sniper group, Senior Sergeant Nusunbayev, once again performs the final inspection and briefing.

In the process of "hunting" for the Germans, Nusunbayev, by means of hidden paths for the enemy, bypasses all ambushes of snipers, "accepts" the killed Fritz and records them at the expense of each of his students.

... Battleground. Here, in the terrible hours of the war, representatives of two peoples of Central Asia - Kyrgyzstan and Kazkhstan - Abdybekov and Madaminov met. Snipers are usually lined up in pairs. Today, Abdybekov and Madaminov successfully settled among the hummocks and track down the enemy.

The Germans used to be impudent. They often went full length at the front edge. And sometimes, drunk drunk, brazenly climbed forward. Now the Germans no longer walk, but crawl on the ground. They are afraid of the fire of our snipers. Fascist gangsters are not worthy of this vile way of life. They must be exterminated!

... Here is a German. Abdybekov aimed and fired. The German frantically waved his hands, something flashed in the air. This flew off the pot.

“Fritz will never need a pot again!” - said Abdybekov.

It was a 1123 fascist killed by him. ” The newspaper "Soviet Guard".
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  1. sergant89
    sergant89 25 January 2016 06: 43
    31
    The feat Was! The feat of ALL the Soviet People and the Panfilovites, including, which did not allow the enemy to reach Moscow, and then reached Berlin. I am waiting for the film "28 Panfilovites", which will most likely be released in April (infa from an interview), there is a hope that it will be real war film and not another tearful love story.
    1. Glot
      Glot 25 January 2016 06: 56
      +6
      The feat Was! The feat of ALL the Soviet People, who did not allow the enemy to reach Moscow, and then reached Berlin. I am waiting for the film "28 Panfilov's men", which will most likely be released in April (infa from the interview), there is a hope that there will be a real war film and not another tearful love story.


      Yes, him, this film is all transferred and transferred. I heard in May come out.
      Let's see what they shot. It would not have turned out that behind all this advertising of a film that lasts so long, it will not be nonsense ...
      1. Riv
        Riv 25 January 2016 07: 16
        +2
        Yes, almost a guarantee. Well, you do not seriously expect that the pop musicians will remove something even remotely similar to "Hot Snow"?
        1. Glot
          Glot 25 January 2016 09: 46
          +2
          Yes, almost a guarantee. Well, you do not seriously expect that the pop musicians will remove something even remotely similar to "Hot Snow"?


          Let's see ... What if.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Firstvanguard
          Firstvanguard 25 January 2016 09: 58
          31
          Not tired?
          To quote myself two years ago:
          1. The film has not yet been released - a fact.
          2. Heroic defense was a fact.
          3. The Panfilov division was also holding this defense - a fact.
          4. Panfilovites were much more than 28 - a fact.
          5. In a separate time period of the heroic defense of the Panfilov division, in a single local area, 28 people could defend themselves - a fact.
          6. The legend is not accurate in details, but illustrates the general essence - the fact.
          7. There were innumerable feats like this in that war, many thousands - a fact.
          8. The unknown of most of them, no reason not to make films about individual ones - IMHO.
          9. The task of such films is to demonstrate to the living compatriots the steadfastness and dedication of the Soviet people who defended their homeland in that difficult situation - IMHO.
          10. Does the film cope with such a task? We look at item number 1.
          1. Talgat
            Talgat 25 January 2016 10: 58
            21
            I support the post

            On points 6 and 7 I will add - the liberals are trying to play on inaccuracies - since there was a time of war and military propaganda was obliged to "embellish" some episode -

            But the main. that in general there were such episodes and many of them are sure.

            The Panfilov division really was and played a crucial role in the defense of Moscow. She became symbols of the unity of all peoples of multinational Eurasia in the face of another western "Drang nach Osten"

            Our national hero Baurzhan Momysh Uly is real - one of the most productive commanders near Moscow (later general)

            It is also real that in Kazakhstan they remember. You go to any school, for example, etc., there are certainly posters and memorial plaques dedicated to the Second World War and the feat of the Panfilov division. Everyone remembers our Alia Moldagulova and Manshuk Mametova

            In the center of Almaty, one of the favorite vacation spots of Almaty residents is 28 Panfilov Park with the majestic Monument. Each wedding is obligatory laying flowers to the eternal flame at the monument to the heroes
          2. Fast_mutant
            Fast_mutant 25 January 2016 16: 47
            +3
            I will subscribe to each item.

            I’ll add on my own that at that time, when they were retreating along almost the entire front, they lost such a HUGE amount of territory, people and equipment that was not in the history of Russia-USSR, it was not a sin to embellish to maintain a fighting spirit! Moreover, heroism was truly unprecedented!

            Indeed, even the liberals have not yet had the courage to declare the absence of such people as: Vasily Grigorievich Zaitsev, Alexander Ivanovich Marinesk, Dmitry Romanovich Ovcharenko, Nikolai Frantsevich Gastello, and many many others!
            And such conversations "it was - was not" lead in the end to a census of history and the emergence of "ordinary ryans", "inglorious ub_l_yu_dkov", "fury", which were UNDOUTLY! And it was THEY who saved the world from the brown plague, not us, who lost more than 20 million fathers, mothers, children! My grandfather got the last splinter out of his hand only 40 years later (as long as I can remember, he bandaged his hand)!

            Therefore, for me personally, the Panfilovs WERE and there were exactly 28 !!!
            And I taught my children and I will teach the same !!!
            Whoever said that !!!
      2. avt
        avt 25 January 2016 10: 12
        +2
        Quote: Glot
        . I heard in May come out.

        Oh yeah! ?? They spoke in February .... sad
        1. Glot
          Glot 25 January 2016 11: 07
          0
          Oh yeah! ?? They spoke in February ....


          Yes, about February (by the 23rd), too. But then the info went by May 9th.
          In general, there was a lot of fog around the film.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      3. siberalt
        siberalt 25 January 2016 14: 46
        +2
        The whole history of states is legendary, as is each of us. The ball would be a real foundation. The rest is false. If Panfilov’s were in real life (which is undeniable), then the legend is to live and live! Glory to those who have the martial past and the unbroken spirit of the fallen convicts a living legend for centuries!
    2. Constructor1
      Constructor1 25 January 2016 08: 55
      +5
      There is an opinion that the German "ace Hartman" shot down not 352 but 5 times less. Well, there simply cannot be such a figure, because he began to fight in 42.
      WHY IN THIS - nobody finds a lie?


      Such "truth seekers" enrage me am
      1. avt
        avt 25 January 2016 11: 17
        +9
        Quote: Designer 1
        It is believed that the German "ace Hartman" shot down not 352 but 5 times less.

        Yes, not "opinion", but quite the rules of counting. The Germans counted as much as possible according to the readings of a photo-machine gun - they hit, debris flew, so they shot down and did not bother with the topic - whether the wrecked airplane had fallen. shot down a single-engine airplane, so it is quite possible to catch up on the counter with such rules for counting victories.
        1. Riv
          Riv 25 January 2016 14: 39
          +1
          Yes, as it were ... Even if it is five times smaller, then 70 is also not a little.
          1. jjj
            jjj 25 January 2016 14: 49
            +1
            Here the program "Myths about War" was repeated. The episode is dedicated to the Panfilovites. Documents were raised. On that day, not one platoon, but a company led the fighting in the indicated area. Mass heroism was shown not only by 28 people, but by all a hundred. We nailed more tanks. The feat itself turned out to be larger than it was written about. And the correspondent managed to write only about some of the fighters. But this is due to lack of information
        2. fan_
          fan_ 25 January 2016 17: 11
          -1
          Well, I heard the same thing that a downed twin-engine plane was counted for 2, four-engine for 4 aircraft.
      2. skeptic
        skeptic 25 January 2016 17: 29
        0
        Quote: Designer 1
        Such "truth seekers" enrage me


        Only they are not truth seekers, but shit mixers. For they set a goal - to distort and vulgarize.
  2. Fitter65
    Fitter65 25 January 2016 07: 19
    15
    The feat was !!! And confirmation of this flag over the Reichstag!
    1. Cap.Morgan
      Cap.Morgan 25 January 2016 22: 57
      -3
      Perhaps Panfilov himself stuck the flag.
      One thing is Victory.
      Another is the concrete work of the Sovinformburo.
      You must also be able to lie.
      1. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 26 January 2016 10: 45
        0
        Quote: Cap.Morgan
        Perhaps Panfilov himself stuck the flag.

        That is unlikely.
        But the inscriptions left by the "Panfilovites" on the Reichstag were wink
        One of them "Thank you Dad for boots", Ivan Vasilyevich Panfilov himself died on November 18, 1941.
  3. AlNikolaich
    AlNikolaich 25 January 2016 07: 25
    12
    It is believed that the liberals’ attempts to make the feat of Panfilov’s heroes a legend are just liberal attempts! Liberals, they are just such liberals ...
    And with regards to the feat, so it is! Like the descendants of the heroes! And they are next to us! In my alma mater, dean of the faculty Klochkov, the son of that same political instructor!
    Although the people who accomplished the feat themselves did not think about it, they only responsibly and selflessly performed their task. Alexander Matrosov, Sergeant Pavlov, Victor Talalikhin, Panfilov heroes and many many others. And only then, after a while, did everyone understand that the work of these people standing to their death is a feat!
    1. creak
      creak 25 January 2016 11: 01
      +2
      Quote: AlNikolaich
      And they are next to us! In my alma mater, dean of the faculty Klochkov, the son of that same political instructor!

      And how old is this son now? And to
      still working as dean, well ...
      I happened to read openly the letters of Klochkov to his wife and beloved daughter Elya, whom he will call Elychka ... There is no mention of any son in any of the letters, the last letter is dated November 1941 where he reports that he has been presented to the order Battle Red Banner ...
      Well, why these fantasies, maybe enough ....
    2. creak
      creak 25 January 2016 11: 01
      +2
      Quote: AlNikolaich
      And they are next to us! In my alma mater, dean of the faculty Klochkov, the son of that same political instructor!

      And how old is this son now, who, one must understand, was born before the war? And still works as a dean, well ...
      I happened to read openly the letters of Klochkov to his wife and beloved daughter Elya, whom he will call Elychka ... There is no mention of any son in any of the letters, the last letter is dated November 1941 where he reports that he has been presented to the order Battle Red Banner ...
      Did he remember his daughter in every letter, but forgot about his son at all?
      Maybe it’s really enough to fantasize and a real feat does not need embellishment and myths ...
  4. pravednik
    pravednik 25 January 2016 07: 26
    +4
    Honestly, how these pseudo-historians are sick of their insanity, their hatred of Russia, their homeland. It is evident with what joy they splash out everything on the history of their country. Why the Yankees do not harass their history, although they have a lot of shit. It’s just that in their schools they instill love for their homeland and its history. That is, they have their own ideology. But in the last 25 years, everything has been canceled. With such a government, our loyalty and love for our Motherland will soon be canceled. We will, and probably already will be, just slaves-consumers.
  5. TTX
    TTX 25 January 2016 07: 32
    10
    To the question were, were they definitely! .... My daughter and I went to the bookstore while she was choosing literature, decided to look through the history textbook, randomly opened the page, I read "WWII .... there was a battle near Stalingrad, which resulted in a turning point in WWII. " Boy! And here is "28 Panfilov's men". While driving home and this 30km spat and swear loudly. Take a shock, what they teach children.
  6. Shiva83483
    Shiva83483 25 January 2016 07: 34
    +1
    It is time to transfer the opposition to the category of legends, or the traditions there ... tired of swearing yelling.
  7. Mera joota
    Mera joota 25 January 2016 07: 44
    +6
    Not only cheeks swelled from pathos.
    Were the heroes defending Moscow? Undoubtedly, otherwise the Germans would have captured her. This could be the end, but here we discuss the opus of the journalist Koroteyev, who was sent to the front line for materials, but either got scared, or swollen, didn’t get to the front line and staggered around the rear that he had been discussing for many years (including this resource )
    In Hasek's "The Adventures of the Gallant Soldier Schweik" there is such a character, the volunteer Marek, who, as a regimental historiographer, even before arriving at the front line, painted in paints the heroic deeds of one or another soldier of the 11th company. Thanks to such "Mareks" patriots angrily try to prove their truthfulness, and "myth debunkers" delve into them, bringing out unsightly details ...
  8. semirek
    semirek 25 January 2016 07: 51
    +5
    In the 43-year-old Pravda newspaper, there is a note about the interrogation of a captured German officer: “... we were attacked by a unit of dark-skinned soldiers who fell upon us with such fury and fearlessness, unable to bear it, we ran in panic, what kind of soldiers were they? what nationality, I do not know ... "It turned out later that they were Kazakh soldiers.
    1. Humpty
      Humpty 25 January 2016 08: 09
      +2
      Quote: semirek
      In the 43-year-old Pravda newspaper, there is a note about the interrogation of a captured German officer: “... we were attacked by a unit of dark-skinned soldiers who fell upon us with such fury and fearlessness, unable to bear it, we ran in panic, what kind of soldiers were they? what nationality, I do not know ... "It turned out later that they were Kazakh soldiers.

      And why are you this, Ivan Ivanovich? A fellow countryman according to Seven Rivers. And suddenly, among the swarthy soldiers, a couple of Tatars and a Kalmyk with a Kyrgyz came to form, which then ...
      Nationalization?
      1. semirek
        semirek 25 January 2016 18: 51
        0
        Quote: Humpty
        Quote: semirek
        In the 43-year-old Pravda newspaper, there is a note about the interrogation of a captured German officer: “... we were attacked by a unit of dark-skinned soldiers who fell upon us with such fury and fearlessness, unable to bear it, we ran in panic, what kind of soldiers were they? what nationality, I do not know ... "It turned out later that they were Kazakh soldiers.

        And why are you this, Ivan Ivanovich? A fellow countryman according to Seven Rivers. And suddenly, among the swarthy soldiers, a couple of Tatars and a Kalmyk with a Kyrgyz came to form, which then ...
        Nationalization?


        Honestly, I did not understand your sarcasm.
    2. Ded_smerch
      Ded_smerch 25 January 2016 09: 27
      +9
      what is it for? If the Panfilov division, then the national composition of the division was as follows: Kyrgyz - 11%, Kazakhs - 11%, Russians - 67%, Ukrainians - 8%, the remaining 3%.
      1. Predator
        Predator 25 January 2016 13: 10
        +1
        There were no fully regular divisions of the same nationality in the Red Army. With the exception of 2 divisions (created from conscripts at the request of the Communist Party of one of the republics of the USSR) of the Crimean Front. After this there was no time, but why you probably know it yourself.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 January 2016 13: 47
          0
          Quote: Predator
          There were no fully regular divisions of the same nationality in the Red Army. With the exception of 2 divisions (created from conscripts at the request of the Communist Party of one of the republics of the USSR) of the Crimean Front. After this there was no time, but why you probably know it yourself.

          There were - and much more.
          At the beginning of 1942, the Transcaucasian Military District began to form national formations. The order of the people's commissar of defense ordered the reorganization of ready-made divisions, creating on their basis 392nd and 406th Georgian, 408th and 409th Armenian, 402nd and 223rd Azerbaijani infantry divisions. At the same time, three divisions of the Crimean Front were reorganized, which had arrived shortly before from Transcaucasia: 224th - to Georgian, 388th - to Armenian, 396th - to Azerbaijan. Finally, on a national basis, the newly created divisions in the Caucasus were manned: 414th and 418th as Georgian, 89th and 419th as Armenian, 416th as Azerbaijani.

          Well, Comrade Maslennikov gave them an assessment:
          Taking the opportunity to directly contact the Headquarters of the Supreme High Command and close relations with the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs L.P. Beria (he was his deputy for internal and border troops), Maslennikov, through the head of the front commander, at the end of September requested the Headquarters for the reorganization of the 89th Armenian, and then three more - the 223th, 402th and 416th Azerbaijani rifle divisions - to the rifle brigades of the reduced staff (4 people each), having previously eliminated the “unstable element” from them

          Not bad, but - after sifting out an unstable element, the division was reorganized ... into a brigade of reduced staff. belay
  9. Humpty
    Humpty 25 January 2016 07: 53
    +9
    Tired of juggling the topic of the Panfilov’s feat. Are there readers of VO who don’t know the details of that terrible battle?
    After reading the article, there was an impression of a mischievous distortion of the facts.
    Attempts to nationalize the Panfilov division personally cause me outrage.
    In 1941, there were no citizens of the Kazakh or Kyrgyz SSR! There were citizens of the USSR.
    The expression is the citizens of the Kazakh and Kyrgyz SSR, as the expression citizens of ZabVO, for example, is columbur, that is, cunning.
    One of the adherents of the nationalization of Panfilov’s who have not yet completely lost their brains is worth one
    once thoughtfully read the history of the Panfilov division so that the picture of the world they have collected has undergone serious damage.

    Eternal memory to the fallen.
    1. oborzevatel
      oborzevatel 25 January 2016 10: 49
      11
      Quote: Humpty
      Attempts to nationalize the Panfilov division personally cause me outrage.

      Similarly.
      Individuals are not only trying to nationalize divisions.
      Fronts operate.
      Ukrainian, Belarusian, Baltic ...
      The delirium of the crazy.
    2. semirek
      semirek 25 January 2016 19: 03
      0
      More than one Panfilov’s division defended Moscow, at the very height of the battle Siberian divisions approached, they thrashed the Germans, the Siberians were respected at the front, but for your reason they weren’t called by the Soviet people from Siberia, as well as Kazakhstani and Far Easterners.
      1. Humpty
        Humpty 25 January 2016 20: 46
        +1
        You yourself essentially answered the question of sarcasm.
        Everyone fought, everyone got it. And expressions, like 79 Turkmens drafted into the Panfilov’s division, beat the Germans fiercely near Moscow, this is nationalization. hi
  10. parusnik
    parusnik 25 January 2016 08: 01
    +3
    There were people, there was a feat ...
  11. Flinky
    Flinky 25 January 2016 08: 03
    +1
    It is believed that dancing on the bones of our grandfathers who died in the Great Patriotic War is not worthy of their memory.
  12. Sahalinets
    Sahalinets 25 January 2016 08: 06
    +8
    What is there to discuss? The feat, of course, was under the Dubosekovo junction, where people with three PTRs, without artillery, in trenches dug in frozen ground somehow, managed to fend off tanks that for some reason were advancing without infantry. Only there were not 28 heroes, but a whole battalion that suffered huge losses, including Klochkov, but kept his position. There are archival documents!
    But the frank invention of a war correspondent is discussed here. Who should one bow their heads to before a scribbler with great imagination? Sorry, but it just humiliates the real heroes. And it has nothing to do with their feat.
    Let's separate the cutlets from the flies! Love for the motherland and appreciation for the veterans does not mean the need to believe in all the common stuff!
    1. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 25 January 2016 09: 02
      +2
      And articles from newspapers are cited as an argument. It's just not serious, indeed there were always enough Mareks among the correspondents
    2. Stas57
      Stas57 25 January 2016 10: 56
      +6
      Quote: Sahalinets
      What is there to discuss? The feat, of course, was under the Dubosekovo junction, where people with three PTRs, without artillery, in trenches dug in frozen ground somehow, managed to fend off tanks that for some reason were advancing without infantry. Only there were not 28 heroes, but a whole battalion that suffered huge losses, including Klochkov, but kept his position. There are archival documents!

      not the battalion, but the 1075 regiment, and didn’t hold back but moved away, while not only moving away, but creating a haemorrhage to the Germans mobile defenseand the losses were big, but the teeth of the offensive were erased
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 25 January 2016 13: 41
        +1
        Quote: Stas57
        not a battalion, but a 1075 regiment, and didn’t hold back but withdrew, and not only withdrew, but created a mobile defense for the Germans with hemorrhages, and the losses were great, but the teeth of the offensive were erased

        EMNIP, Ulanov recently raised this issue again - with maps. The biggest problems for the Germans were not created by the 1075 regiment, but by its neighbor - 1073 regiment, in the defense zone of which was concentrated almost the entire PTA 316 sd.
        The 1073rd rifle regiment with a PTR platoon, 6 guns of the 296th artillery regiment, 7 guns of the 768th artillery regiment, a mortar company and a machine-gun platoon of the detachment detachment defends the site - (without a height of 141,4), the western edge of the forest, which is 2 km west Yadrovo (excluding height 251,0), with the equipment of anti-tank areas in the village of Yadrovo and Goryuny, ПП 1073 - 1 battery of the 857th artillery regiment.
        1. Stas57
          Stas57 25 January 2016 14: 43
          +1
          I answered there.
          the offensive line was such Shirokino-Petelino, with our withdrawal from 1075 into the forests (which the Germans write about by the way) and shelling from there.
          Petelino, either they took it, then they beat it off, the usual battle-chekhord.
          And they stopped only when the Germans reached the artillery and the 1 Guards of the Tbr, well, there were a bit of their problems there, Ulanov wrote
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 25 January 2016 15: 19
            +1
            Quote: Stas57
            I answered there.

            The circle of these people is narrow ... (C) smile
  13. Gray 43
    Gray 43 25 January 2016 08: 56
    +3
    There is an opinion that Stalingrad was defended by fines, I hope my grandfather spat in the snout to the author of such nonsense, as he has every right to do so, as he fought there. Wait a minute, Europe and its lackeys began to forget who saved them from fascism - the ground is already ready for its resurrection.
  14. Aleksander
    Aleksander 25 January 2016 09: 00
    +1
    So who does not need to be convinced of the feat of Panfilov’s, so these are readers yes !
  15. surrozh
    surrozh 25 January 2016 09: 53
    -2
    Why write such provocative articles here. Everyone knows, there was a feat, but nobody is interested in digging in 70-year-old underwear.
  16. baudolino
    baudolino 25 January 2016 10: 36
    0
    The Merikos themselves came up with and the whole world was already led to believe that it was they who almost defeated the Germans, and we still have no one to give a hat to those who muddied the water. The tradition, probably, is this - either to do nothing or brush away the cap immediately with your head.
  17. Stas57
    Stas57 25 January 2016 10: 43
    +1
    Many, many things that disprove the feat of Panfilov’s were written by historians and pseudo-historians after the Great Patriotic War. And in the State Archives of the Lipetsk Region, I found excerpts from front-line newspapers of that time. They contain stories about some Panfilovites. True, this is not about those soldiers who fell in that terrible November battle. But these notes are strong touches to the general “portrait” of the division. And, reading the lines of seventy years ago, I believe in everything: in an unprecedented feat, and in words about Moscow, and in “nonexistent military tactics”, which the forces could stop the tanks ..



    to be honestly tired of this stupor of history.



    and for Lipetsk journalism, in especially large print.
    I usually skip your articles, but here I will say
    the feat of the division was, you deliberately or by mistake misinterpret the history of 28 and the entire division, because of you and people like you, people then say nasty things about the whole division.
  18. Sofia
    25 January 2016 10: 54
    0
    Dear forum users! I am glad that you so warmly responded to the completely shameless question of whether there was a feat. The unprincipled opinion that he was not there, I did not bring then to ask this question again - there is nothing to dance on the bones of the heroes. And in order to once again confirm the truth: was. And for this, I also found front-line newspapers, because other Panfilov members are worthy of admiration and respect. Is the story of their fate - digging in underwear seventy years ago? Then you don’t need to tell about any veterans at all.
  19. Predator
    Predator 25 January 2016 11: 15
    +5
    Much could be what later seems like a fairy tale. According to all existing and former military concepts, a platoon cannot under any circumstances hold out against a battalion of tanks and motorized infantry, but history says it can. There are many examples, here are some of them: in July 1941 near Smolensk the calculation of the anti-aircraft guns alone stopped the tank battalion, the sailors near Sevastopol, the column of assault self-propelled guns, near Kursk, the battery political commander repulsed the attack of a company of Tiger-type tanks alone and knocked out 7 pieces, the reconnaissance detachment in Rudnya stayed 1943 days against the battalion for 5 days in 1941,1942, the militia battalion was diluted NKVD officers defended Smolensk from the motorized division for XNUMX hours and kept the northern part of the city. And as for the lack of reports, they had to be written to someone, but if not to whom?! All were killed or injured ?! And how many documents died before reaching the addressee ?! we don’t know about the heroic deeds of the soldiers of the Red Army of the summer-autumn of XNUMX whose documents were vanished in encirclement and waste ?! The war must have heroes, explicit and imaginary, of the Vedas The war is being waged not only on the battlefields, but for the minds of people ..... and equally fierce. So all those whom the toad crushes on our heroic past have gone on an erotic journey! Glory to the peoples of the USSR-winners!
    1. King, just king
      King, just king 25 January 2016 12: 55
      +2
      It is very correctly written !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 January 2016 13: 33
      0
      Quote: Predator
      in July 1941 near Smolensk the calculation of anti-tank guns alone stopped the tank battalion

      This, by the hour, is not a feat of Sirotinin?
      So it was already being dismantled: in those very places at the same time, the 2nd Sat 409th Rifle Division of the 137th Rifle Division under the command of Captain Kim held the defense. The battalion competently took up defenses 4 km from Krichev, repulsed the first offensive of the Germans (according to German data, the head group of 79 pioneer battalions came across it), after which German artillery began to systematically interfere with the ground. Unfortunately, Kim's battalion was at the forefront of the offensive of Eberbach's Kampfgruppe (which included as many as 21-cm guns). The battalion with its 4 * 45-mm anti-tank gun and 1 * 122-mm "stray" howitzer held out for 4 hours, after which it retreated to Krichev. The Germans continued to move, but in front of Krichev they stopped to regroup, after which they entered the city. Our battalion fought for some time, after which it retreated again, blowing up the bridge behind it (2 more bridges were blown up by the NKVD fighters).
    3. avt
      avt 25 January 2016 13: 56
      +1
      Quote: Predator
      Much could be what later seems like a fairy tale. According to all existing and former military concepts, a platoon cannot under any circumstances hold out against a battalion of tanks and motorized infantry, but history says it can. There are many examples, here are some of them: in July 1941 near Smolensk the calculation of the anti-aircraft guns alone stopped the tank battalion, the sailors near Sevastopol, the column of assault self-propelled guns, near Kursk, the battery political commander repulsed the attack of a company of Tiger-type tanks alone and knocked out 7 pieces, the reconnaissance detachment in Rudnya stayed 1943 days against the battalion for 5 days in XNUMX, the militia battalion was diluted NKVD officers defended Smolensk from a motorized division for a day and kept the northern part of the city

      And another 430 paratroopers under the command of Storchak near Yukhnov were kept without artillery, they staged a "standing on the Ugra" near Yukhnov! They detained for FIVE DAYS and about 60 fighters left the battle alive! .29 who came out as a single unit, about thirty came out later, presented to the Order of the Red Banner. As Starchak himself put it, “We entered this“ post ”on 04. At the 10th kilometer, and changed 205. on the 09.10th kilometer from Moscow. "Yes, 180 Spartans are resting and smoking nervously on the sidelines !!!
      Quote: Predator
      ! Glory to the peoples of the USSR-winners!

      soldier
      1. King, just king
        King, just king 25 January 2016 14: 19
        +1
        And there was Olshansky’s landing, as a result of which ALL 55 fighters were assigned a Hero (sorry they forgot the divestments).

        And the exploits of our fighters for all 1418 days and nights every day were hundreds and thousands!
      2. Stas57
        Stas57 25 January 2016 15: 11
        +1
        Quote: avt
        And also 430 paratroopers under the command of Storchak near Yukhnov held without artillery arranged ,, standing on the Ugra "near Yukhnov! They detained for FIVE DAYS and about 60 fighters left the battle alive!

        On October 6, he was supported by a detachment of cadets of Podolsk military schools under the command of senior lieutenant L. A. Mamchich and captain Y. S. Rossikov (an infantry school as part of the 6th company and a platoon of machine guns with two guns, as well as the 517th combined division Artillery School (4 guns).


        The cadets, together with the airborne assault fighters, began their first battle with the advanced forces of the enemy on October 6 at 8.00, and lasted until October 16.20 7. Of course, not all enemy soldiers from 58 000 took part in this battle. So, according to the German archive, “from one (2 300) to two battalions (4 600) of the 3 motorized division during the 5 day with the support of tanks and artillery”. According to Zhukov, 2 and 3 infantry regiments (14 000 - 21 000) and 50 tanks. It’s hard to agree with the Germans, because during this time the “millstone of the war” grind almost the same composition of our combined detachment. And if we take into account that during the same period of time, all 1 000 enemy soldiers and only 20 tanks and 10 armored vehicles were destroyed by our forces, then these German troops would have to take a walk to Yards and further to Ilyinskoye. Of course, along a narrow road (up to 18 meters), and across rivers, without bridges, in unfamiliar terrain, all this bulk could not get involved in the battle. But behind the enemy the enemy always felt support and fresh strength. It is impossible to agree with L. Lopukhovsky when he says that the Germans in Yukhnov were reforming in order to go north and aim towards Vyazma. Unfortunately, there were two Yukhnovs on the German maps (L. Lopukhovsky's 14 scheme), so many authors have some confusion.

        And the result of this many-hour battle was that the cadets, although they suffered heavy losses, took up a position on the Kuvshinovo-Red Pillars line, and the German troops were forced to remain on the right bank of the Ugra. They could not cross it. But the most important thing is that by this time the fighters of the 108-th reserve regiment with an artillery division, the 222-th anti-tank artillery regiment (of six guns), the 31-th anti-tank artillery division, the battery of the 34-th artillery regiment pulled themselves here. A total of about 50 artillery and anti-tank guns, including the 4 Katyush guns. They were joined by the 2 company of the PUF. From here, the enemy troops barely advanced forward, having spent precious two weeks to reach Maloyaroslavets.
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 January 2016 14: 48
      +1
      October 1941. Ilyinsky lines. Podolsk cadets. A combined detachment of 3500 fighters and commanders detained the Germans for a week, enabling the command to assemble units to restore defense.
      And they also hold a kind of record - 15 destroyed tanks in 7-8 minutes. Moreover, some tanks were clearly not subject to restoration: one of the "fours" in the photo is constantly confused with a "shtug". Yes, and more - the feat of cadets and anti-aircraft gunners was recorded, including in German photos.
    5. Stas57
      Stas57 25 January 2016 15: 06
      +1

      they said about Sirotinin.

      near Kursk, the battery’s political commander repulsed an attack of a company of Tiger tanks alone and knocked out 7 pieces,
      Borisov?
      this is how myths are born.
      not a political officer, but a Komsomol, well, there aren’t tigers and 3hi-4ki, not alone, he fought back alone at the final stage, but started as it should, was lucky, survived.

      The militia battalion diluted by the NKVD officers defended Smolensk from the motorized division for 24 hours and kept the northern part of the city.

      it’s a little more complicated, the Germans from 29 mpd, in the sec. floor. 15 of the day they tried on an in-flight basis, it didn’t work out, they pulled up strength and took almost the entire southern part, but the smaller northern one, it was cleared for another day. everything
      at the same time, the Germans cut the Moscow-Minsk motorway 15 km west of Yartsev, and the three armies — 16, 19, and 20 — were semicircular. The supply of ammunition, fuel and food stopped. Look on the topic of the analysis of Yu.P. RZHEVTSEV, he, a veteran of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, talked with the participants, collected documents, the verdict is simple, it all ended very quickly.
      just understand if the Germans could have been stopped by the mountain daredevils in the bushes, everything would have ended in Minsk, and only the system, only superiority in everything from the Commander-in-Chief to the last soldier
  20. Tambov Wolf
    Tambov Wolf 25 January 2016 11: 17
    +1
    The enemies of the people who are seated at the top now want to take away from us the history of our people, who won the Second World War. Moreover, everything comes from connivance from the very top. But it seems to me that they will lose here. There were times in Russia when the enemies ruled above but they were always dumped and Russia stood up in a new, refined power. It will be so now.
  21. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 25 January 2016 11: 27
    +1
    Only scum can question the feat of our people, and the "Panfilovites" are one of the brightest episodes of the heroism of Soviet people! The ancient Greeks said that the people who forgot their HISTORY are not worthy of the future! Maybe I didn’t quite accurately reproduce this idea, but conveyed the meaning in full! Glory to our GREAT ANCESTORS who broke the back of world fascism !!!
  22. Ajjh
    Ajjh 25 January 2016 11: 28
    +4
    I don’t understand the VO site ... that year it was all a myth. where all this was proved systematically.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 25 January 2016 12: 02
      +4
      Quote: Ajjh
      I don’t understand the VO site ... that year it was all a myth. where all this was proved systematically.

      the story itself - about 28 and the history of the division are different things, the division received the title deservedly, 28 were necessary to raise morale, and were taken from the company, as a result, both the regiment and the company, from which almost everyone died, and fought well - mixing of these concepts is direct subversive activity: "28th is a myth, which means that all Panfilov's men are myths," this must be fought against.
  23. goody
    goody 25 January 2016 11: 32
    0
    If we go back to history, then 28 people are those who survived on the front section of the Volokolamsk highway.
  24. Belousov
    Belousov 25 January 2016 11: 53
    -5
    Isn't it time to introduce an article of the Criminal Code for distorting the history and deeds of the people? Although with our rulers they will rather introduce an article for knowing the real history of the state. We have already quietly replaced the Tatar-Mongol yoke with a simple Mongol yoke, so as not to offend the feelings of the Tatars. At this rate, it will soon "become clear" that General Ermolov saw a bow to Shamil ... am
    1. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 25 January 2016 13: 14
      -1
      Quote: Belousov
      Isn't it time to introduce an article of the Criminal Code for distorting the history and deeds of the people? Although with our rulers they will rather introduce an article for knowing the real history of the state. We have already quietly replaced the Tatar-Mongol yoke with a simple Mongol yoke, so as not to offend the feelings of the Tatars. At this rate, it will soon "become clear" that General Ermolov saw a bow to Shamil ...
      Of course, I apologize, but before calling for a CC article for distorting the story, it would be nice to know this story myself. Ermolov was dismissed in 1827, and Shamil became a fighter in the 30s, he was proclaimed imam in 1834, and won major victories in the 40s. repeat
    2. brn521
      brn521 25 January 2016 15: 02
      0
      Quote: Belousov
      But is it not time to introduce an article of the Criminal Code for distorting the history and exploits of the people?

      Well, for example, a story. http://topwar.ru/88491-arhivnye-dokumenty-o-podvige-28-mi.html Scan of official archival documents. Supporters of the feat that had taken place did not have documents of similar severity. That is the problem.
  25. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 25 January 2016 13: 51
    +1
    Thank you very much, Sophia, for your article, for your research!
    The fate of Vali Panfilova and Vanya Mikhalenko was very shocked. Valentine means "strong".
    Sincerely.
    1. Sofia
      25 January 2016 21: 01
      +1
      Thank! Glad you are back on the site!
  26. sevtrash
    sevtrash 25 January 2016 13: 51
    +8
    Of course, heroism, self-sacrifice took place, there is nothing to argue about.
    It’s rather strange on the part of the author to cite press articles as proof of heroism. One must understand what the tasks of the press at that time were. And they consisted in educating / maintaining the necessary level of moral-volitional qualities of their troops, including through examples of perseverance, courage, and self-sacrifice. Journalists and the press as a whole did this job. On real examples, either based on real situations, but with an emphasis on the necessary provisions or on the basis of generally invented events.
    So the story of 28 Panfilov heroes was recognized by the USSR Chief Military Prosecutor's Office in 1948 as fiction. Does this mean a 316 rifle division and Panfilov himself was not a hero? Of course not, they were heroes. Does this mean that the journalists were inadequate? Yes, of course, also not, they did their job and did well. Although regarding the history of 28 Panfilov’s, they may have overdone it. Surely, not one such case, just specifically this story turned out to be too visible.
    What's the bottom line? There were heroes, of course. Not only Panfilov's division, Rokossovsky, in particular, noted the great role of Beloborodov's division in the November battles near Moscow. The story about "28 Panfilov's men" itself is rather fiction. So what, this does not play a role in the fact of the heroism of the Soviet troops.
    Were there any facts of cowardice, desertion? Yes, of course, the same Rokossovsky wrote about this. And the well-known order existed. It is clear that there were much fewer such cases, otherwise they would not have won. And, probably, a considerable role in this victory is for journalists with their real or fictional stories.
    And propaganda - it always takes place to be, in the past, in the present, in the future. And the real story is always black and white and in gradations. The question is what do you want to see and hear.
    1. Sofia
      25 January 2016 15: 08
      +2
      There is nothing strange in the use of articles. My fellow countryman, veteran, war correspondent Ivan Alexandrovich Narcissov left a diary in which he recalls the war. He spent a lot of time with Panfilov. The diary has stories about people, the notes about which I brought. It also says about their further fate - almost all of them died. There is no excessive advertising in these newspaper lines, they are true. Of course, the task of their journalists saw and maintain morale, but on true examples. These - for sure.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 25 January 2016 16: 10
        +3
        Quote: Sophia
        Of course, the journalists also saw the task of maintaining morale, but with true examples.

        Hmm ... Remind you about "Matilda" Baltermants? When the "wrecked German tanks" depicted in the photo turned out to be retouched "Matildas" that flew off the road on the march.
        Everything was revealed only because this newspaper with this photo caught the eye of the British and they asked for a photo of the "wounded Germans" for reprinting at home. And after receiving the photo in the best quality, the experts drew attention to the characteristic forms of the hull and turret of "Aunt Moti".
        ICHH, they made the last one in this story ... the photographer. Although retouching was already done in Izvestia.
      2. sevtrash
        sevtrash 25 January 2016 17: 59
        +2
        Quote: Sophia
        They also talk about their future fate - almost all of them died. There is no excessive advertising in these newspaper lines, they are true. Of course, the journalists also saw the task of maintaining morale, but with true examples. These - for sure.


        Yes, even in your article in these short excerpts you can find some inconsistencies / inaccuracies not especially rummaging.
        For example - sniper Abdybekov Tuleugali, you have written "It was 1123 fascist killed by him." The newspaper "Soviet Guards" ". But, meanwhile, in the list of the best snipers, he has 397 victories. The rifle number is slightly different, the name of the successor on the rifle is also. In the same list, Ashirali Osmanaliyev has only 128 victories, but you indicate that he destroyed exactly 128 enemies with the same rifle. If we take on February 22, 44, when he received a rifle at the hero's grave (another inaccuracy, by the way, Abdybekov was wounded on 22, died on 23, was buried, most likely later) and until it was transferred to the museum (in your article for the third anniversary of the formation of the division, it turns out this is July-August 44) did he shoot 6 people in just 128 months? And before and after what happened?
        About Panfilov's daughter - "... She works at the front as a nurse. Not knowing tiredness and fear, under enemy fire, under a cruel bombing from the air, she is doing her job ...". But she worked in a medical battalion, and this structure is not directly on the battlefield. And she herself writes about it - http://www.bibliotekar.ru/480/4.htm.

        But all this does not detract from heroism, a sense of duty of Abdybekov, Osmanaliev, Panfilova.
        It's just that the journalists embellished the actual events to achieve a greater effect, a little in your passages, but in the history of "28 Panfilov's men" there are more.
      3. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 26 January 2016 11: 22
        0
        Thank you again, Sophia. If it weren’t for your position, my relatives could have been lost. I continue to remember and write about the life of other generations of my family. with respect.
  27. Obolensky
    Obolensky 25 January 2016 15: 59
    +1
    There is an opinion that the one who is "digging" now in order to bring the past to light is simply - №% №;%; №% dak!

    The feat was, is and will be! And for those who dig, I want to advise you to do at least a fraction of what happened during the War! Sofa heroes No. "; No."; Yat!
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 January 2016 16: 26
      +3
      Quote: Obolensky
      There is an opinion that the one who is "digging" now in order to bring the past to light is simply - №% №;%; №% dak!

      The feat was, is and will be! And for those who dig, I want to advise you to do at least a fraction of what happened during the War! Sofa heroes No. "; No."; Yat!

      Offer to continue to believe in myths? Remind you - what did it turn out the last time?
      All of these Rezuns, Sokolovs, Solonin, Svanidze, Korotichi and other howling-whispers who organized a bacchanal in the late 80s and early 2000s appeared for a reason. The ground for them was prepared in GlavPUR, emasculating the history of the war and replacing real feats by perpetuating the same myths (just none of the officers wanted to work - that’s what they copied from each other). And then it turned out that such a mythologized story is just a paradise for revisionists: it is enough to pull out one of the obvious myths - and even real feats can be freely poured with mud, passing them off as the same Agitation GlavPUR.

      Do we have few real heroes? Why drag up again what the documents of the Chief Military Prosecutor’s Office are in free access to, and not perestroika, but the sameStalinist?
      1. Obolensky
        Obolensky 25 January 2016 20: 30
        +1
        I suggest leaving this as it is. Let's leave the dead alone. All these "revelations" and rewriting of history do not lead to anything good. What are they for? Tell me how many people said about the feat of 28 heroes? As far as I can remember, they talked so much. And now - once - and it turns out that there was nothing. So what should I do now? And what about thousands of other people who were brought up on these heroes? So many years of your life have been spent in lies? Expose modern oligarchs and ministerial thieves. Don't touch those who went through the war. There are too few of them left. Their children are already under 70. Let them calmly, in honor, live as long as they are allotted, without any revelations and everything else.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 26 January 2016 10: 52
          +1
          Quote: Obolensky
          I suggest leaving this as it is. Let's leave the dead alone. All these "revelations" and rewriting of history do not lead to anything good. What are they for?

          And to remind you - how did the "revelations" begin? Why did they start talking about this at all? Because someone decided to unwind on a well-known topic, quickly collecting money for a patriotic film. Moreover, at the very beginning, the comrade was warned: do not touch this topic, let it quietly go into the past, it is better to make a film about a real feat.
          Vaughn, in the same USA, they were able to quietly forget the "Captain Kelly's ram" - when they found out that he did not ram any battleship, but dropped bombs on the cruiser, was intercepted by fighters and pulled to the base, giving the crew time to jump out. And he is now known only to those who are interested in the history of the war on TO.

          So blame should not be those who expose, but those who once again pull out a myth, trying to make a name for themselves on it.
          1. Obolensky
            Obolensky 26 January 2016 12: 22
            0
            To be honest, any "whistleblower" is simply disgusting to me. Let him make a name for himself on anything, but not on human memory. In the end, people, no matter how deceived they are, will still figure out who is a hero and who is not.
  28. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 25 January 2016 16: 20
    +2
    In fact, I agree with the previous comment.
    During my absence, this is what I came to: categorically you can’t look for traitors, provocateurs, deserters in Our past. You never know what, there are few --- there are now. Who wants to expose --- let him expose in the present: this --- easier! You can get an answer for this.
    And Sophia’s stories about the life of ordinary people, confirmed by notes of THAT time, I like. Life changes, some household items go into the unknown, new ones appear, the Russian Language changes, and stories about the lives of ordinary people are very important. I’m sorry that there are no such military stories my family. They were in occupation, it was so hard that neither my grandmother nor her sister wanted to talk about it NEVER. When I read Sophia’s stories, I began to understand what was in their childhood, but it’s a pity that it’s late.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 25 January 2016 16: 31
      +3
      Quote: Reptiloid
      During my absence, this is what I came to: categorically you can’t look for traitors, provocateurs, deserters in Our past. You never know what, there are few --- there are now. Who wants to expose --- let him expose in the present: this --- easier! You can get an answer for this.

      We will not do it - they will do it for us. And it will be doubly painful for us when some emigrant from the foggy Albion or from the promised Brighton pokes our nose with our own documents exposing another myth - and we won’t be able to answer plainly.
      The same "Dobrobabin - Krivitsky case" was published partially long before the film. And it's good that the scans of the archival docks surfaced now, and not the day after the film's premiere - say, in Shvainidze's program ...
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 25 January 2016 17: 41
        +1
        Àlexey RA! I wrote about the same words as yours to the article of Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky, whom I respect at the end of last year. I have not changed this opinion. But, in principle, a lot of things have already been discussed. That's enough. And there is a very good example --- This is the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries it protected Europe from instability and corrupting ideas of all kinds of sects from overseas. As in modern Russia, the Russian Orthodox Church. But someone dug up the "gospel" from Mary, from Judas, and the apotheosis was Dan Brown's book "Angels and demons "," the da Vinci code ", also the disclosures of the paters went. And it seemed that everything was fine --- this is the TRUTH !!!. As a result, the unthinkable --- the Pope voluntarily left his post, and the decay of Europe intensified. But they became monobraki. The church has trampled on its basic laws, and its power is becoming less and less, but sects have become stronger. Europeans even go to ISIS. With respect.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 25 January 2016 18: 40
          +2
          So it would be nice for our ROC to draw conclusions from this. And then they lit a fashion for trading candles, Zyuganov was skipped over to the holy relics, people who lived in pre-Christian Russia were called by the patriarch savages. And where does authority come from then? I agree with Alexei that you don’t have to wait until we are blamed for this truth on the head. And it will turn out like in 41-42, hooray, and then bang - and order No.227, from which it follows that the potential of the USSR was equal to Germany, and our troops retreating without an order covered their banners with shame.
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 25 January 2016 20: 11
            +1
            And what are the disadvantages? It’s possible that you have moved away from the topic? It’s all close by. And it goes one to the other. I still think that those who want the truth should be sought not for dead traitors, but for those who now live beautifully. Also, study the history of countries, where are the most opponents, to find the dark sides and expose. They do not scold themselves, but they distort us! At least someone knows how the United States exposed itself? Or Turkey? England? Georgia?
  29. vlavek
    vlavek 25 January 2016 16: 36
    -3
    What is it, it turns out that the Kazakhs defended Moscow?
    1. kartalovkolya
      kartalovkolya 25 January 2016 19: 35
      +5
      The Kazakhs are not Kazakhs, but the Soviet people defended our homeland!
  30. chelovektapok
    chelovektapok 25 January 2016 17: 55
    +1
    Defended, who defended? 100, 28 people in frosty fields could and have become the Flag of Defense. An example of Persistence and Courage. Those who pushed back the Germans back from Moscow really defended Moscow. They pushed it hard, breaking and deploying back the most combat-ready army of Europe at that time. Having broken so that she never returned to Moscow. Russian people from the Kuril Islands to Brest, this POWER is called! Not for nothing now rage in cramps those who were driven by this FORCE into HELL and smelly Bandera caches. So it was and it will be so!
  31. Tanysh
    Tanysh 25 January 2016 18: 05
    +2
    A lot of good words, a lot of opinions, but damn the couch generals! Once let the truck pass over you and you don’t need a break-in tank to understand the people who accomplished the feat. 28 Panfilov’s forever remain OUR legend like Ilya Muromets, Dobrynya Nikitich Alyosha Popovich. Measure of feat memory overgrown with legendary details
  32. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 25 January 2016 19: 30
    +3
    I didn’t want to give an example of how we were "run in with tanks", but the talkers made us! In 1971, I was on an internship in Grozny, in town 15, and on my own "initiative" took part in a "tank run-in"! It was something, it's good that the pants remained dry! Thanks to Major Kurilo, he showed what tanks are ... Anyone who at least once saw a tank in front of him will understand (at least a little) what the Panfilov heroes felt!
    1. exSUman
      exSUman 25 January 2016 20: 43
      +2
      I passed an emergency there in 15 town ... anti-aircraft training, we were taken to Shali for a run-in ... the sensations are indescribable! Even knowing that the driver of the tank was driving as accurately as possible, still in December there was a wet back ...
  33. Alex
    Alex 25 January 2016 20: 05
    +3
    There is no such military tactic with which 28 lightly armed soldiers in flat terrain could successfully withstand more than fifty attacking tanks with the support of motorized infantry ... "
    Obviously, that’s why they won ... It’s fighting in Europe according to the prescriptions, it’s easier with us: the club is heavier, but the swing is stronger ...

    Sophia, thanks for the article, an excellent selection of materials.
  34. gladcu2
    gladcu2 25 January 2016 20: 24
    +6
    I do not understand these conversations.

    Was there a war? It was.
    They smashed the Germans? They broke it.

    So there were exploits. Each has its own. Even those who were not brought to the front and they were killed by aircraft.

    In this case, historical accuracy is not important for me. However, I believe the officially recognized fact and laid down on the counterversion.
    1. Cap.Morgan
      Cap.Morgan 25 January 2016 23: 14
      +3
      This is not the case. And in the work of military writers.
      Such a writer sits in the rear and composes by virtue of his abilities. Then this nonsense, which the writer invented, is already turned into a historical fact, which pundits begin to refer to in their discussions.
      Then do not be surprised that the Americans likewise attribute the whole victory to themselves. They have even more such writers. According to the American version, El Alamein and Stalingrad are battles of the same order. American writers painted everything so colorfully - you read, it's impossible to break away.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 26 January 2016 10: 55
        +1
        Quote: Cap.Morgan
        According to the American version, El Alamein and Stalingrad are battles of the same order.

        In British.
        It’s easier for the Americans - they can write about the fleet and battles in MOT where they have no competitors. smile
  35. Corporal Valera
    Corporal Valera 25 January 2016 23: 20
    +1
    4) But there is an opinion that the feat of the Spartans is also a legend
  36. xoma58
    xoma58 26 January 2016 15: 19
    +2
    The feat was! All WWII is a feat of the Soviet people. All dissatisfied with this let them create their site and have each other there. And you don’t need to go here, geeks.
  37. lel
    lel 29 January 2016 13: 15
    0
    Quote: fan_
    Well, I heard the same thing that a downed twin-engine plane was counted for 2, four-engine for 4 aircraft.

    I also read about such an account ... there were also fraudsters discovered by the command itself ... examples were given of who overstated
  38. lel
    lel 29 January 2016 13: 17
    0
    not the 20th army ... but the 2nd shock ... I remember ...