Military Review

Tenderness to the roaring beast

75



The emergence of such a landmark modern combat helicopter, as the Mi-28, is inextricably linked with history the birth of his rival - Ka-50. The fact is that for the first time in the history of domestic helicopter manufacturing, a competition between two design bureaus, Mil and Kamov, was organized in order to select the best option for the army on a competitive basis. The technical assignment to the implementers from the Ministry of Defense was issued simultaneously, and almost simultaneously, in 1982, both cars took off. The presented samples reflected the difference in the approaches to solving the problem of creating a new, promising combat helicopter.

KB them. M.L. Mile decided to go in an evolutionary way, based on the experience of a well-developed scheme for Mi-24. The single-screw scheme, the tandem arrangement of the crew members, the long-accepted range of weapons used from this helicopter (not to be confused with the weapon system, this is a different, more voluminous concept) reduced the degree of technical risk and increased its “recognition” for the potential consumer and customer ( this, unfortunately, still - different concepts).

Aerodynamically and in terms of performance, each helicopter layout has its advantages and disadvantages.

On the Mi-28A was applied traditional single-screw circuit. This scheme has been worked out constructively. In it, for many years of operation of helicopters around the world, all technical nuances are "licked". There is a vast experience of combat use and statistics of enemy fire fighting effects from all types weapons on the carrier system, and the designers are well aware of what and how should be protected in it in order to achieve the necessary degree of combat stability. The experience of combat use of the legendary predecessor Mi-28, the Mi-24 helicopter around the world, and above all in Afghanistan, made it possible to create a good combat survivability system on a new helicopter. I was impressed by the viewing of a secret film then (now it is declassified) of a film, where various elements of a helicopter's construction were fired from various weapons calibers at the test site. In addition, many solutions that increase the combat survivability of the device have been constructively implemented there. What is worth, for example. so-called "progressive destruction system". This is when the suspension of the seats, the chassis device, the cabin mount is made to ensure the survival of the crew members when they strike at a vertical speed of about 13 meters per second! In addition, the engines, transmission elements, including the main gearbox, are positioned so that the crew does not press down in an accident. This, of course, is great, and already modern practice has shown that these innovations work. There were already several cases where the crew survived after the helicopter crashed. True, it was twice that, after landing, the surviving pilot, who had tried to get out of his cockpit early, was killed by the remnants of the blades that continued to rotate for a while. The extreme case is Igor Butenko 2 August 2015.

The tandem arrangement of the crew members taken on combat (shock) helicopters around the world, since it allows to reduce the potential area of ​​destruction of the device by the enemy. But! This makes it difficult for crew members to interact in combat, especially when there is an intensive air exchange in the air, which is typical of a complicated combat situation.

The single-screw circuit is more resistant to entering the vortex ring mode. This is such a mode when, in the absence of a forward speed, the pilot, if he decides to transfer the car to a vertical decline, then when a certain speed of this vertical decline is reached, the air flow thrown by the rotor begins to be sucked from above, and control loses and the vertical speed increases. declines down to catastrophic. So, this parameter of vertical descent at single-rotor circuit is about 4 meters per second. This is in the piggy bank of this scheme with a plus sign. But its downside is a pronounced dislike for the right side wind during takeoff and landing at a speed of more than 5 meters per second. Such is the aerodynamics of the tail rotor, which, with these parameters, falls into the supercritical angles of attack of the elements of the blades and loses its thrust. And then - the unbalanced reactive moment from the rotation of the rotor, which was previously pacified by the tail rotor, begins to spin the car wildly to the left, which ends in most cases by tipping the helicopter ...

In addition, the presented version of the Mi-28A raised questions like:

- Why is his speed even lower than that of Mi 24?

- And why - the same aviation means of destruction?

- Where are the bombs for use from a helicopter?

- And where is the second control for the navigator?

- No, the fact that maneuverability is higher is good! The available overload is greater, the heights of the static and dynamic ceiling are higher, the car is "softer" in terms of tactile sensations - it's all great. But why can not we use it in operation, because Does the design bureau have imposed bans and restrictions due to the fact that it has not yet solved the problem of an irreducible increase in the temperature of the oil in the main and intermediate gearboxes?

Yes, and the weapons complex does not work as we would like.

For all these questions, Mil's design bureau, which for a long time was a monopolist in the domestic helicopter industry of combat "land" helicopters, either referred to the content of the TK, signed by the military, or answered with the thesis that "you will be able to do that", .

In another way, porridge was cooked in the KB. Kamov. For a long time they worked there with a coaxial scheme of helicopters intended for use in the national economy, and if for military purposes, then sea-based, with search and rescue tasks, as well as anti-submarine and anti-ship warfare. Participation in the tender for a combat land helicopter was a novelty for them. Kamovtsy decided to go for broke. The degree of novelty of their cars was prohibitive. Single combat unit with guided missiles unprecedented range and ejection seat! Astonishing maneuverability, thrust-to-arm ratio - all this should have made an impression on the military!

The application of the coaxial scheme promised great benefits. The design of the carrier system, although more complicated than the single-screw, was quite well developed by that time. At the same time, the aerodynamic benefit of using this scheme was that the engine power is not expended on the drive of the steering screw with its transmission, and these losses are no less than about 20%! The helicopter is more compact. In the weapons system, Kamovians used their main trump card - the Whirlwind guided weapons complex with a range of use of aircraft guided missiles up to 10 km. Nowadays none of our foreign opponents have such a range. A well-balanced 30-mm caliber gun (the same as on the Mi-28), located "under the arm", as pilots say in their slang, beats more accurately than a competitor, since it is located near the center of mass. The level of automation, as conceived by the design bureau, makes it possible to solve all combat missions to one crew member. The issues of combat survivability were also well developed, plus a system unprecedented by helicopters - the ejection system - was added. By the way, it still does not exist on any helicopter of the world, except Ka-50 and Ka-52, which appeared later.

Coaxial scheme is not afraid of side winds at all. The biggest trouble that can happen if you exceed the limits on this parameter - the helicopter will turn against the wind. Like a weather vane.

When questions arose during the tests, the company behaved according to the principle: "Say what you need and we will do it!"

Comparative tests of both machines, conducted in the 80 and early 90-s. They have not yet ended, but it was already becoming clear that, in a number of parameters, the Mi-28 has no advantages, and in some cases it is lagging behind. Under these conditions, the general designer of KB them. M.L. Mile, at that time - Weinberg MV, decided to remove the Mi-28 from the competition. As he later explained his decision to me, using chess terminology: "I can afford to lose one game, but I know that I will win the tournament. We will put forward a proposal for a round-the-clock machine, and then we will see who will win." Unfortunately, he failed to look ...

Mark Vladimirovich, an outstanding designer, a man of the broadest engineering knowledge and remarkable spiritual qualities died in 1997.

Thus, at that stage, the competition was won by Ka-50. In 1995, this helicopter was officially adopted by the Russian, by that time, army. The machine spun briskly on all air shows held at that time, writing out aerobatic maneuvers. Impressed the audience. Participated in the tender for a combat helicopter in Turkey. A model version of the helicopter called “Erdogan” was even built - apparently, in order to please the vanity of the then Turkish Prime Minister. True, it did not help. Americans simply did not allow a NATO member country to buy a Russian combat helicopter. But participation in an overseas tender has enriched the manufacturing company with the necessary valuable experience. And above all - in terms of PR. Here the general designer of the company Mikheev SV quite succeeded. That only is the creation of the movie "Black Shark", after which, with a light hand of the designer, this name is firmly fixed in the minds of the population, not even dedicated to the helicopter theme ...

However, the helicopter did not go into mass production and saturation of parts of army aviation. The reason for this is that the so-called "dashing nineties". The period of life of our country, which is to describe something there is neither desire nor meaning. Poverty and destruction, in a word. Therefore, only a few cars settled in the center of combat use and retraining of the flight personnel of army aviation in Torzhok for the development of this new complex aviation complex. Best of all the new car was mastered by the then head of the Center, Major-General Vorobiev B.A. He worked wonders on this helicopter! He represented him in all the salons, demonstrating such a complex of aerobatic figures, which thrilled the audience! Yes, and experts - too. But the Ka-50 continued to remain a "saloon car". He could become a fully combat helicopter after his experience of using in a real armed conflict. And soon such a case presented itself. In August, 1999 broke out the second Chechen campaign. I proposed to our commander of the army aviation Colonel-General V.Ye. use the BEG consisting of two Ka-50 and one Ka-29 VLSTU in Chechnya. He endorsed this proposal, and the work boiled over. The whole year was needed to resolve all issues of a technical and organizational nature, and only 26 December 2000. the group was at the airport of Grozny-north. 2 January 2001. held a historic aviation event. For the first time in world practice, a combat action was carried out by means of a defeat against an enemy from a helicopter of a coaxial scheme! For this, the pilot was awarded the title Hero of Russia. The group, having completed its program, returned to the base at the appropriate time. And we began to generalize the experience and think about what to do next. The fact is that by that time, understanding had begun not only of the positive aspects related to the operation of the combat helicopter of the coaxial circuit, but also of the shortcomings.

So, for example, this aerodynamic scheme, although it has advantages over a single-screw, for side wind restrictions during take-off and landing, has much lower parameters for stalling into a vortex ring. The boundary of the breakdown of her begins with two (!) Meters per second. For this reason, in 1984, a catastrophe occurred in which the tester died, E. Laryushin. And in 1998, on this machine, the head of the Center, Chkalov Army Aviation, as we called it, General BA Vorobiev, died. The direct cause of this catastrophe was the impact of the blades of the lower and upper screws. Officially in the conclusion of the investigation recorded "hitting flight modes, not previously investigated." Well, what was really there, I personally find it difficult to say ...

No one yet knows what will happen if you subject the coaxial carrier system to shelling from below. Answering this question to opponents, general designer Mikheev S.V. stated that he would conduct such an experiment. However, this has not been done so far ... The experience gained has led to the conclusion that, in principle, one pilot will be able to perform tasks for stationary, previously explored targets. He will be able to conduct air combat, using a large thrust-weight Ka-50. But close up over the battlefield with intense enemy fire confrontation, search and find moving targets, navigate, link to auxiliary landmarks for re-entry and at the same time fly a helicopter at extremely low altitude while working with an armament complex - this seemed difficult ... Therefore In the report to the Chief of General Staff on the results of the “Chechen expedition”, along with the positive aspects, it was noted that it was proposed to concentrate financial, and other and other efforts to create a two-seater. The resolution of the NGSH appeared on this report: "I agree."

And at this time in KB them. M.L. Mile was in full swing working on the creation of an all-weather, round-the-clock version of a helicopter called the Mi-28H. Similar work was carried out in the KB them. Kamov, over the Ka-52 helicopter, already double. Moreover, Kamovtsy was one and a half ahead of the competitors of the year. They had already managed to carry out the LTH stage (flight performance) of state tests at a time when the Milovets were still far from its completion.

At that time I served as Chief of Combat Training of Army Aviation of the Office of Army Aviation under the leadership of Colonel-General V.Ye. With the permission of the commander, I used the official position with all my might, I tried out new, promising helicopters, which by that time had not even been submitted for state tests. But it was necessary for us to know what they are. Therefore, not trusting technical descriptions, and even more so - advertising materials, he personally communicated with the equipment in the air, making up his opinion about it, which he then reported to the commander. This made it possible to avoid many mistakes when adopting this or that sample, to oppose both supporters and opponents from the respective opposing camps of both design bureaus. Many times I was convinced that in this regard, to trust the opinion of outsiders is the same as making a choice of a bride from a photograph and from the words of a professional matchmaker. They all lied! Persistently, selflessly!

So, I fly on the Mi-28А given to me for reference by the Milians. I notice some shaking at a speed of about 220 km / h, which increases with increasing speed. After landing, they explain to me that, they say, they were in a hurry to present the car, and did not have time to reduce the synchronism of the plane of rotation of the blades, i.e. "make a cone." However, this deficiency manifested itself further on other machines and was “treated” for a long time later.

It was possible to fly on the version of the helicopter with control in the front cabin. It was exotic! This is remembered by the company until now. At our whining about the need for such management: they say, how to train-retrain pilots, and even in battle, the commander was suddenly wounded or killed, and M.V. Weinberg replied that at one time the military had issued such TK to them. They wanted, apparently, to save on the flight crew. Now, in order to do it, you need to redo the whole helicopter! However, the company tried to make such control by creating an EDSU (electronic-remote control system). This - a few wires, actuators and sensors connected to each other. Of course, this is very schematically said. Well, I sit in the front cockpit and hear the tester's sigh from behind. I looked - in the cockpit two joysticks. One - in place of the step-gas, the other - in the area of ​​the right armpit. Pedals - no. But, the tester tells me, when you switch to the hover mode, the right joystick will also rotate around the axis. This is instead of pedals ... Well, I will not describe how everything worked in flight, only I rejected this system, and we didn’t turn to it anymore. Subsequently, already in the 2013 year, a Mi-28UB helicopter with full dual control in both cabins will still appear. Made by import order. So, "if you can not, but really want, then you can"?

I had the opportunity to fly on the prototype Ka-52, which existed at that time in a single copy. The car, although it was also shaking at speeds over 270 km / h, seemed to me an interesting arrangement of crew members according to the "side by side" scheme, that is, next to it. Like the Mi-8. This makes it much easier to understand each other in battle, to see the entire crew with the entire set of displays on the dashboard, and in terms of overview, if we mean the capabilities of the entire crew, then the sectors are even larger. Both the company and the other company promised that the onboard locator is about to "light up" and it will be possible to use it to shoot and navigate, and everything will be very beautiful with it! Unfortunately, so far "not all issues have been resolved." Just as promised NSTU literally soon (nashlemnaya target designation system). Until now, the matter has not moved further than the mock-ups.

Especially the "lacquering of reality" became aggravated during the period when S. Mikheev It was initiated consideration of the need to finance only one project of a long-term, all-weather, all-weather round-the-clock helicopter.

They say that the time is difficult, there is little money in the country, the impermissible luxury of drawing two projects at once: "The elk is very small, not enough for everyone." At that time I made up the proposals of our Office for the financing of OCD and R & D in the interests of army aviation, and, like no one, I knew that for both OCR, by virtue of these circumstances, crumbs were really allocated. To my question: “Do you understand that you are opening Pandorra’s box with unpredictable consequences?”, Sergey Viktorovich, slyly narrowing his eyes, answered: “I’m not afraid of risk. Besides, it will be clear who is for whom ...” that it will be clear who is whose apologist. I must say that by that time the Kamovites had a definite head start. In the safe at the then Air Force Commander Mikhailov VS The act of carrying out the first stage of state tests of the Ka-52 rested, whereas the Milovites with the Mi-28Н had, by that time, “the horse did not roll” in this regard.

Yes, the act was. Signed. BUT! Unapproved by the commander in chief. In the future, he will lie there for a year and a half! This allowed the Milovtsi to eliminate the odds and, having consolidated all forces, direct the work of the commission to consider the issue "in the right direction".

In the final report of the commission it was written about the expediency of financing the Mi-28Н project. The corresponding report on the results of the work of the commission was sent to the NSG, which imposed a resolution:

"I agree".

In addition, "reserves were tightened," and the Order of the President of the Russian Federation was born on the early adoption of the Mi-28Н. Work in this direction began to boil with treblenno force!

And what about Ka-52?

A couple of weeks after the end of the commission’s work, I was summoned to the General Staff in an office and asked for my opinion about both helicopters. I replied that, they say, the commission worked, it made its conclusions. No, they say, we know about it, we are interested in your opinion. Here I declare that the commission worked under the chairmanship of the commander, and corporate ethics does not allow me to report officially, but, as an individual, I have the opportunity to express my independent opinion.

And, after an approving nod, he told everything that I think about this, having concluded that it was necessary to have both helicopters. Since each of them has its own characteristics that need to be optimized to solve certain problems. For example, the Mi-28H is a battlefield machine that must solve the enemy’s fire attack tasks on the “front end”, and these tasks are solved in 70% of cases in simple weather conditions during the day. But Ka-52 should be designed to solve problems at night and in SMU, that is, special tasks, including on the topic of anti-terror. Hearing my report, they nodded to me a second time. On the table of the NGSH he laid down a report from this administration, which repeated, almost word for word, my proposal, and on which the NGSh also wrote: "I agree." So now, when hearing about the Ka-52 TV announcers or when reporting on MAKS, they say “designed for solving anti-terror tasks,” I will gladly recognize my idiom, and think that “we plowed too ...”, and it is not known that it was with the other helicopter. And in general. The design bureau and the factories made it "iron", and we breathe our soul into it ...

Then - there were testers and Torzhok, pilots of combat units and equipment. They taught these children to walk, speak their own language, frolic, know how to stand up for themselves and for others ... But all this was already later ...
Author:
Originator:
http://zavtra.ru/content/view/nezhnost-k-revuschemu-zveryu/
75 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. svp67
    svp67 30 January 2016 07: 35 New
    30
    Yes, this is the case when the best is the enemy of the good ... But I believe that both Mi28 and Ka52 will find a place in the sky and together they will be able to make a serious counter-argument to our "foreign partners" ...
    1. Scraptor
      Scraptor 30 January 2016 15: 53 New
      -8
      Ka-52 is a helicopter of control and target designation by the Ka-50 group, without them it does not make sense to do it
      1. Kasym
        Kasym 30 January 2016 19: 04 New
        21
        In my opinion, from the article we can conclude that Mil will have a cooler lobby. wink
        And it seemed to me that the Mi-28 is cheaper and therefore the main one. But the Ka-52 is "better" (the impression is that the author is more to Ka) and the army did not want to lose such a machine. hi
        1. Sailor
          Sailor 30 January 2016 20: 55 New
          +5
          The Ka-52 is better than the opponent, even if it is much more maneuverable, but Mil had LOBBY as mentioned above, and it was because of him that the Ka-50 did not go. (Generally handsome).
          1. aksakal
            aksakal 30 January 2016 23: 31 New
            13
            Quote: Sailor
            The Ka-52 is better than the opponent, even if it is much more maneuverable, but Mil had LOBBY as mentioned above, and it was because of him that the Ka-50 did not go. (Generally handsome).
            - and I was angered by this attitude of the Milians to the main customer - to their own Ministry of Defense: "Subsequently, already in 2013, the Mi-28UB helicopter with full-fledged dual control in both cabins will nevertheless appear. Made by import order. So, "if you can't, but you really want to, then you can"?". For foreigners, even a star from the sky, for ours and the second" joystick "will come down, full-fledged double control for ours to do in scrap, let them die, it's not a pity !.
            "To all these questions, Mil Design Bureau, which for a long time was a monopoly in the domestic helicopter industry of combat "land" helicopters, either referred to the contents of the TK signed by the military, or answered with the thesis that "you will fight on what we, the Design Bureau, will be able to do"- well, now there is Kamov, and if the Milians continue to thrive, then the consequences, unlike in the past, may come in the form of refusal to develop them. Let them now be guarded. No, the Milians are ready to move mountains for dollars! I thought naively - the defense of one's own country is in the foreground, but what about dollars? And dollars later! Damn, when will I get rid of my naivety?
          2. Scraptor
            Scraptor 30 January 2016 23: 39 New
            -2
            It was about the fact that without the Ka-50, these Ka-52s have much lower combat effectiveness.
            And the lobby - yes, of course ...
            1. morituri
              morituri 31 January 2016 11: 30 New
              0
              well, that's not true at all! without ka 50, and in other ways, like without mi 28n, ka 52 cannot realize its full potential
              1. Scraptor
                Scraptor 31 January 2016 19: 16 New
                -4
                Ka-50 without the commander's Ka-52 cannot. The Ka-52 is a Ka-50 flight control helicopter. Making the Ka-52 alone is a classic from the series "the worse the better, and so we almost always wanted to."
                1. Outsmarted
                  Outsmarted 1 February 2016 11: 37 New
                  +4
                  Helicopter Commander for Helicopter Link, this is the American idea of ​​the decade before last. They did this with Apache when on 1 Apache with Longbow radar, there were 4 without such a radar. Later, all Apaches were upgraded. There are no Ka-50 combatant units and their serial production was stopped and never started. Until 2020, government orders for 120 Ka-52 in normal configuration.
            2. Anddy
              Anddy 1 February 2016 19: 03 New
              +2
              Tell this nonsense to Mi-28N pilots who at Aviadarst 2015 could not even get into the top three crews. The entire pedestal of the crews of the Ka-52.
              The Ka-52 can also perform commanding functions, but at the same time it remains a full-fledged attack helicopter by head superior to ALL Mi-28 combat indicators.
          3. silver_roman
            silver_roman 1 February 2016 12: 39 New
            +4
            The Ka-50 still did not go because of the layout of the cockpit for 1 pilot. However, the number of tasks only increases, and the pilot's resource remains unchanged and is not enough at all stages.
            By the way, I read that Ka-50 felts, or Ka-52, is the fastest in rate of climb.
            Mi-28 is coarser and more universal or something. Although I can get hurt.
            But purely outwardly, the Ka-50 is the best I've seen! just indescribably beautiful!
        2. olegfbi
          olegfbi 31 January 2016 14: 35 New
          +6
          The Mi-28 is cheaper and therefore the main one. But the Ka-52 is "better"

          Yes, it's just different cars, completely different! They complement each other and solve, together, a wide range of tasks.
      2. remy
        remy 31 January 2016 23: 48 New
        0
        we only produce Ka-52!
        Ka-50 ceased to produce, a certain amount is still in operation
    2. Blondy
      Blondy 31 January 2016 07: 03 New
      10
      Great article, one can feel the transcendental mastery of the material. There would be more of them. But, such authors are "piece goods" and "do not roll on the road."
  2. Zigmars
    Zigmars 30 January 2016 07: 44 New
    27
    Many thanks! A very interesting article. It is always interesting to learn, as they say, "first-hand" about the merits and demerits of two outstanding machines.
    1. max702
      max702 30 January 2016 11: 37 New
      +7
      Here is a link to the article of the gunsmith tester gun on KA-50 \ MI-28 .. Informative and interesting ..
      http://www.virtualsky.ru/index.php/bajki-inzhenera-ispytatelya/86-bajki-inzhener
      a-ispytatelya-vospitanie-pushkoj

      pc: And the fact that they ruined the KA-50, I think that the tribunal will understand ..
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 30 January 2016 15: 48 New
        -1
        and minus someone put ... but didn’t the Ka-50 fire at the ground?
        1. Orionvit
          Orionvit 30 January 2016 19: 36 New
          +1
          Someone minus all the articles in a row, in my opinion without even reading.
          1. midivan
            midivan 31 January 2016 08: 19 New
            +2
            Quote: Orionvit
            Someone minus all the articles in a row, in my opinion without even reading.

            but this article (I would even say labor) is just an excellent detector, and as we already see 3 contraceptives, there are definitely there, well, we’re expecting smile
            1. Scraptor
              Scraptor 31 January 2016 19: 17 New
              -3
              The article is far from excellent ...
      2. NIKNN
        NIKNN 30 January 2016 18: 32 New
        +2
        Quote: max702
        Here is a link to the article of the gunsmith tester gun on KA-50 \ MI-28 .. Informative and interesting ..
        http://www.virtualsky.ru/index.php/bajki-inzhenera-ispytatelya/86-bajki-inzhener

        a-ispytatelya-vospitanie-pushkoj

        pc: And the fact that they ruined the KA-50, I think that the tribunal will understand ..

        Thanks for the link, interesting ... good
  3. Jan2016
    Jan2016 30 January 2016 08: 11 New
    11
    Very interesting. It is always interesting to find out how decisions are made. And if there are a lot of books of articles and memoirs about the Soviet era, then there is little about the present and so valuable, interestingly written.
  4. TELEMARK
    TELEMARK 30 January 2016 08: 30 New
    10
    Brilliant article! It is a pity that the article was reprinted, otherwise we would ask Comrade Lieutenant General to write something from the German-Afghan experience!
  5. gjv
    gjv 30 January 2016 08: 30 New
    +2
    Quote: svp67
    both Mi28 and Ka52 will find a place in the sky and together they will be able to form a serious counterargument to our "foreign partners" ...

    Mi-24 also works and argues quite successfully!
    1. opus
      opus 30 January 2016 23: 35 New
      +2
      Quote: gjv
      Mi-24 also works and argues quite successfully!

      can replace soon?






      1. rubidiy
        rubidiy 31 January 2016 18: 52 New
        +2
        can replace soon?

        in the photo there is just a flying laboratory based on mi-24 for testing various components and assemblies of a promising high-speed helicopter.
        I really want to believe that this is done because the fuselage has not yet been designed, and not because everyone has been assigned to Rostvertol, and he again climbed Frankenstein to sculpt from MI-24.
  6. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 30 January 2016 08: 30 New
    +2
    I do not understand something: Almost the same weapons and radar on both helicopters. It works poorly on one, but good on the other ..? how so Apache does not interfere with flying and shooting with a single-rotor scheme.
    1. Garris199
      Garris199 30 January 2016 15: 30 New
      -5
      As the saying goes, "chasing two hares, you won't catch a single one." When this leapfrog will end with the diversity in the army is not clear.
      1. rubidiy
        rubidiy 31 January 2016 18: 54 New
        -1
        Have you tried to think outside the army?
  7. gjv
    gjv 30 January 2016 08: 36 New
    13
    I was very impressed by the viewing of a secret film (now it’s declassified), where various elements of the helicopter’s design using fire weapons of various calibers are fired at

    1. uragan114
      uragan114 31 January 2016 12: 52 New
      +4
      This is what yay .. from testers ?? Titanium, diamonds? After all, they sit in the cockpit when they shoot, and not peas !!!
      Respect!!!
      And trust in specialists who made such armor.
      1. midivan
        midivan 31 January 2016 22: 24 New
        +4
        Quote: uragan114
        This is what yay .. from testers ??

        I think from the same glass that they experience laughing request
      2. Petrix
        Petrix 1 February 2016 15: 04 New
        0
        Quote: uragan114
        After all, they sit in the cockpit when they shoot, and not peas !!!

        What is the practical meaning of this risk? Or is it a prerequisite for testing so that the hack is not driven?
  8. Outsmarted
    Outsmarted 30 January 2016 08: 38 New
    +6
    Interesting article. Thank! I myself live in Arseniev, where the Ka-52 is produced. Perhaps, with the launch of the Ka-50 in the series in the nineties, everything could have worked out better if both design bureaus and their lobbyists had agreed to continue the production of the Mi-24 in Arseniev, for export to the Chinese, and the parallel development of the Ka-50. But in the end, we cut the slipways for the Mi-24, and the Ka-50 did not even finish the pre-production batch.
    1. Zigmars
      Zigmars 30 January 2016 13: 37 New
      0
      Interestingly, Arsenyev's Progress is currently releasing any new cruise missiles to replace Mosquitoes?
  9. DesToeR
    DesToeR 30 January 2016 08: 44 New
    +6
    Awesome article! No extra numbers and handouts. Read in one go.
  10. Sargord A.
    Sargord A. 30 January 2016 08: 58 New
    0
    - And where are the bombs for use from a helicopter?
    And what about bombs for use from a helicopter, are provided somewhere other than the Mi-24?
    1. gjv
      gjv 30 January 2016 10: 46 New
      +9
      Quote: Sargord A.
      And what about bombs for use from a helicopter, are provided somewhere other than the Mi-24?

      On the Mi-28, it is possible to use the KMGU-2 container.
      Small-sized cargo containers KMGU (KMGU-2) are intended for combat use of small-caliber bombs without hanging ears, and min. Bombs and mines are placed in a container in special blocks - BKF (container blocks for front-line aviation). KMGU consists of a cylindrical body with front and rear fairings and contains 8 BKF units with air bombs or mines installed in compartments. The compartments are closed by valves controlled by the pneumatic system. The KMGU electrical system provides tactical ammunition discharge in a block-by-block series with intervals between blocks of 0.05, 0.2, 1.0, and 1.5 s.
      On Ka-52 it is possible to use FAB-500, FAB-250, FAB-120, FAB-100; KMGU-2, RBC-500, RBC-250, incendiary tanks ZB-500.
  11. vyinemeynen
    vyinemeynen 30 January 2016 09: 18 New
    11
    Most of all, the article was struck that with the help of factology and argumentation it was possible to change the decision already made !!!!!!!! A very ambiguous fact, but it worked for the good!
    The author clearly had great authority and trust in the aviation environment! May God give us more such Officers. The article is great !!!
  12. tomket
    tomket 30 January 2016 09: 36 New
    +2
    It is interesting by the way to look at the results of the Aviadarets. When and how the prizes were distributed, Mi-28 is clearly not in favorites there.
    1. gjv
      gjv 30 January 2016 10: 59 New
      +5
      Quote: tomket
      It’s interesting by the way to look at the results of the Aviadarets

      Aviadarts-2015
      Army Helicopter Combat Helicopters
      The first place - representatives of the Chernigovka air base (BBO) on a Ka-52 helicopter.
      Second place - the air base Dzhankoy Southeast Military District (Ka-52 helicopter).
      Third place - helicopter pilots of the Torzhok air center and Korenovsk air base (South-West Military District), respectively, were divided into Ka-52 and Mi-35.
      1. gjv
        gjv 30 January 2016 18: 36 New
        +2
        Small addition. On helicopters, Avadarts-2015 was attended by:
        Ka-52 - 8 units.
        Mi-24 - 2 units.
        Mi-28N - 2 units.
        Mi-35M - 2 units.
        Mi-8 - 3 units.
  13. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 30 January 2016 10: 46 New
    +4
    Well done author, very competently stated everything. What can I say, professional! Thanks to him for a clear statement of the pros and cons of both machines. And then the advertising chatter "obscures the eyes."
  14. Mera joota
    Mera joota 30 January 2016 10: 55 New
    -8
    In addition, the reserves "tightened up", and the President of the Russian Federation issued an Instruction on the prompt adoption of the Mi-28N.

    The author openly says that in the issue of adopting an attack helicopter, it is not the characteristics of the machine that are important, but the availability of "reserves"; in the case of the Mi-28N, such a reserve was made by Luzhkov (one of the reserves).
    Especially the "lacquering of reality" became aggravated during the period when S. Mikheev It was initiated consideration of the need to finance only one project of a long-term, all-weather, all-weather round-the-clock helicopter.

    Absolutely the right decision. No country in the world is developing in parallel two absolutely identical functionally combat helicopters. This is insanity. Even the United States whose military budget does not dream of anyone can not afford this.
    1. gjv
      gjv 30 January 2016 11: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: Mera Joota
      Even the USA

      US Army 740 AH-64E Apache.

      Of course, the 14 AH-1Z Viper US Marine Corps does not do weather, but they are nonetheless.
      1. Mera joota
        Mera joota 30 January 2016 13: 55 New
        -2
        Quote: gjv
        US Army 740 AH-64E Apache.

        Quote: gjv
        Of course, the 14 AH-1Z Viper US Marine Corps does not do weather, but they are nonetheless.

        And what does Viper have to do with it? Viper is a KMP machine, moreover, it is a shock version of Venom with which it is unified. Well and the most important thing. Viper compared to Apache is weak and worth a penny.
        If you find fault, then let's remember the Ka-29, our drummer of the marines?

        You perfectly understand what it is about. That in the competition of the two win ... both. This is insanity. The Americans do not purchase the Bell AN-64 in parallel with the AN-63.
    2. TiRex
      TiRex 30 January 2016 13: 18 New
      +1
      they develop 2-3 helicopters every 10-15 years (with passing tests), only they are rarely accepted for armament, dear all.
  15. go
    go 30 January 2016 13: 02 New
    +7
    When they launch into the mi28 series with a supra-muzzle radar, it would be nice to remove the radome fairing from the nose, otherwise it looks like a rat or mickey mouse.

    The main problem of both, or rather not theirs, but suo is the absence of a rocket shot and forgot, because tracking a target over a field is a dangerous task. No matter how protected 28 is, while everyone is there, everyone will be beaten, so an analogue of the last helper is necessary. I hope that the reason why Cubans do not give the lost helper to the Americans is that they no longer have it, maybe he flew off the next Aeroflot flight.
  16. bbss
    bbss 30 January 2016 13: 17 New
    -1
    Bravo, Comrade Lieutenant General!
  17. Garris199
    Garris199 30 January 2016 14: 31 New
    +4
    And in the end, all the same crocodiles fight.
  18. serverny
    serverny 30 January 2016 14: 55 New
    0
    Quote: Mera Joota
    two absolutely identical functionally combat helicopters.

    sit down, two. The material you have not learned at all.
  19. Alexez
    Alexez 30 January 2016 15: 52 New
    0
    By functionality. Materials taken http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/ru/helicopters/

    Mi-28N “Night Hunter” - ... is designed to search and destroy tanks, armored and unarmored vehicles, as well as enemy infantry on the battlefield and low-speed air targets. The helicopter is capable of operating day and night in simple and difficult weather conditions.

    The Ka-52 Alligator is designed to destroy tanks, armored and unarmored military equipment, manpower and helicopters of the enemy at the forefront and in tactical depth, in any weather conditions and at any time of the day.

    As if the general description matches. The characteristics are also similar. Apparently, the question is price.
  20. doework
    doework 30 January 2016 16: 07 New
    +1
    Nice to read professionally and to the point written material! Many thanks to the author for giving grounds for the correct decision regarding Kamov. I think the Mi-28 and Ka work in several different niches, and our army needs both devices.
    1. Garris199
      Garris199 30 January 2016 17: 21 New
      -1
      Quote: Alexez
      2 pistols (ПЯ, ГШ-18), 2 tanks (Т-72, ​​Т-80), 2 aircraft (MiG-29, Su-27).

      2-3 Frigates (11356, 22350, 12441) 2 ICAPL (971,945) 2 rpksn (667brdrm 941), etc. etc.
  21. Alexez
    Alexez 30 January 2016 17: 03 New
    +4
    Quote: doework
    I think the Mi-28 and the Ka work in slightly different niches, and both vehicles are needed by our army.

    They have one niche, based on the fact that they participated in one competition. The main thing is the competition of two design bureaus, which stimulates maximum efficiency. But the adoption of both models is either evidence of a high level where there is no obvious advantage with a completely different approach to solving TK, or a sign of the lobby and the principle of a competitive commission (I hope that the first). But if you look closely, there is a certain tendency in the dualism of adoption: 2 pistols (ПЯ, ГШ-18), 2 tanks (T-72, T-80), 2 aircraft (MiG-29, Su-27).
    I think so - in this way, in a state of peace and the uncertain nature of the "war of the future", the Ministry of Defense diversifies risk - it is always better to have a fallback.
  22. Outsmarted
    Outsmarted 30 January 2016 17: 22 New
    0
    Quote: Alexez
    By functionality. Materials taken http://www.russianhelicopters.aero/ru/helicopters/

    Mi-28N “Night Hunter” - ... is designed to search and destroy tanks, armored and unarmored vehicles, as well as enemy infantry on the battlefield and low-speed air targets. The helicopter is capable of operating day and night in simple and difficult weather conditions.

    The Ka-52 Alligator is designed to destroy tanks, armored and unarmored military equipment, manpower and helicopters of the enemy at the forefront and in tactical depth, in any weather conditions and at any time of the day.

    As if the general description matches. The characteristics are also similar. Apparently, the question is price.


    The question is in the tasks that are now facing the army aviation and the capabilities of the industry. The Mi-28 is arguably better for operations over the battlefield in "standard" warfare. But in modern realities, the Ka-52 with its coaxial design has an advantage in the combat ceiling and maneuverability, plus the coordination of the crew members. All this is important when operating in mountainous conditions (the Caucasus, Afghanistan, Central Asia, etc.) when performing limited military or special operations in highland areas. We do not have a light reconnaissance helicopter, like the American Comanche, and it is not known when it will appear. Plus, you should take into account that the current factories of 20 Ka-52 \ Mi-28 per month, as was the case with the Mi-24, are simply unable to produce, they would have to master 20 per year. And the factories are not to blame for this, they rivet gliders as much as necessary. The main problem is in the components and equipment, which either does not exist, or is about to be, or is already there, but raw and in limited quantities.
    1. Alexez
      Alexez 30 January 2016 19: 54 New
      +1
      Right now we are witnessing in Syria a test of technology, new weapons and the concept of their use. The industry depends on the order, and the order must correspond to the tasks that are determined by generalizing experience, etc. Everything will be - the factories are already working, there are not enough specialists. The generation grown on the "American Dream" does not want to go to the plant.
  23. Operator
    Operator 30 January 2016 21: 43 New
    -5
    Mi-28 test pilot Gurgen Karapetyan:

    “The first sign of a problem with the coaxial scheme during combat use and maneuvering was the Ka-50 disaster in 85, when the leading test pilot of the Kamov company, Hero of the Soviet Union, Laryushin, crashed during testing.
    Air Marshal Efimov came to the test. First we showed our car, then the Kamovtsy piloted their car. The Ka-50 began to repeat the elements that we had completed shortly before, and ended up in the so-called "vortex ring".
    All helicopters have a chance to enter vortex ring mode. But the flapping motion of the blades in the vortex ring on helicopters of the single-rotor "Mil" scheme does not lead to collisions with the tail boom. And in coaxial helicopters, at a certain position of the controls, the blades inevitably collapse.
    Then, when investigating this disaster, a very important point was revealed. It turned out that any helicopter passes the vortex ring when performing any maneuver at a certain speed. We can get the vortex ring mode during braking, for example. But the same Mi-28, in order to avoid falling into this mode, can decelerate with positive or zero vertical speeds, but the Ka-50, even when braking with a positive vertical speed, falls into a vortex ring with unpredictable flapping movements. "

    Those. coaxial helicopter type Ka-50 / Ka-52 is fundamentally not suitable as a highly maneuverable aircraft
    http://npbezdetnov.narod.ru/Articles/un1.pdf
    1. tomket
      tomket 31 January 2016 02: 33 New
      +3
      Quote: Operator
      But the flapping motion of the blades in the vortex ring on helicopters of the single-rotor "Mil" scheme does not lead to collisions with the tail boom.

      In fact, Ka performed a flight with such overloads, from which Mi would simply chop off his tail.
      1. Operator
        Operator 31 January 2016 21: 18 New
        0
        The flight performance of the Mi-28 and Ka-52 are almost equal:

        Empty weight 7890 / 7700 kg
        Weight of fuel 1500 / 1487 kg
        Maximum take-off weight 12100 / 12200 kg
        Take-off power 2х2400 / 2х2400 hp
        Maximum speed 300 / 300 km / h
        Cruising speed 265 / 260 km / h
        Rate of climb 13,6 / 12,0 m / s
        Maximum operating overload 3,0 / 3,5 g
        450 / 460 range km
        Static ceiling 3600 / 4000 m
        Dynamic ceiling 5600 / 5500 m

        Then why pay more for Ka-52?
        1. Operator
          Operator 2 February 2016 15: 37 New
          0
          According to AircraftCompare.com, export prices for helicopters are:
          Mi-28 from 16 to 18 million. $
          Ka-52 from 29 to 32 million $
          1. Operator
            Operator 2 February 2016 18: 38 New
            0
            The price of AH-64E Apache in 2014 amounted to 35,5 million.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  24. kmv.km
    kmv.km 30 January 2016 23: 12 New
    0
    Can I pray for mi-28 and ka-50 (52) of all modifications and their pilots?

    Let there are two of you, but more than each! If there are only two types of "sawing the dough", then - IT'S NOT IMPORTANT, defense is more important, you need only ONCE.
    Let both of you improve, improve avionics, improve electronics, supply the "Whirlwind" and teach you how to shoot!
    Do not let down your PATH PATTERN - MI-24 on the ground, if you can - but YOU CAN, then surpass!
    The adversary of his own constant, a-indian (Apache) zealous, - STUDY, he is extremely strong, of course, DO NOT BE SCARED! Well, don't forget about other "cobras" and tigers!
    Drive away bad thoughts about your, WITHOUT LABOR, superiority! "Bad copper pipes" are now held in high esteem, but for the Motherland - BEAUTY !!!
    PILOTS - fly, shoot cannons, launch rockets, Russia is for you! But the main thing you remember is THIS RUSSIA, PROTECT!
  25. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 31 January 2016 08: 43 New
    0
    The Mi-28 has a higher transmission resource than coaxial helicopters, and everything else is pulled up. We need a new-generation mass combat helicopter + modernization of the Mi 24 and Mi-8, which have a similar load-bearing system and screws. Ka 52 more expensive and specialized car. And we, at least, need 500-600 helicopters. Ideally, create another transport helicopter with a carrier system and spaced engines like the Mi 28. I watched the Aviadarts, by the way, even the Su-25xs were shot from the guns by the Kamovs, the comment was that the Ka52 starts shooting where the target is still looking ...
    1. Outsmarted
      Outsmarted 31 January 2016 10: 37 New
      +1
      May one plant not build 400-500 helicopters even in 6-7 years, they will continue to build both helicopters. Plus, there is a rush on Progress because of the large Egyptian contract for the Ka-52; in Rostov, some of the resources are also taken away for export.
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 1 February 2016 09: 15 New
        0
        For this, the Mi-24 / 35M is being modernized, a gearbox and a carrier system from Mi-28 are being installed, a diagnostic system, a thermal imager, and weapons have been unified. In part, this was the reason for choosing the Mi-28 as the main attack helicopter of the army. Aggregates also need to be mass-produced, the cost is lower.
    2. morituri
      morituri 31 January 2016 12: 04 New
      +2
      I certainly understand - "state order", "survival and development of the industry", but the production of 500-600 pieces of helicopters with obvious problems - why. Bring these to mind, but there are a lot of problems! There was really no combat use. As for the Ka 52, this is a machine of the future and its cost (as well as the cost of its armament) will decrease, and the prospects for the Mi 28N are, in my opinion, hazy.
      1. Outsmarted
        Outsmarted 31 January 2016 17: 11 New
        0
        Time is lost, it is necessary to establish production and get rid of diseases already in the course of development in the troops. A good example of getting rid of "problems":
        "According to Michael Gilmore, head of the Operational Test and Evaluation Office, the start of combat tests of the F-35 is shifted by a year - testing of fighters will begin no earlier than August 2018. However, more than 500 the aircraft may leave the assembly line before testing is completed. The final list of modifications to the base model that various units of the US armed forces are requesting for their needs has not been determined either.
        http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160130/1367515112.html
        http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/01/29/More-Bad-News-Snakebit-F-35
  26. Scooter_gto
    Scooter_gto 31 January 2016 09: 35 New
    +1
    Since they are not used in Syria 28, it is worth suggesting that the problem with overheating of oils in gearboxes has not been solved ???????
  27. Denis Skiff
    Denis Skiff 31 January 2016 14: 43 New
    0
    The appearance of such a landmark modern combat helicopter as the Mi-28 is inextricably linked with the history of the birth of its competitor, the Ka-50. The fact is that for the first time in the history of the Russian helicopter industry, when creating a new combat vehicle, a competition was organized between two design bureaus: Mil and Kamov, in order to select the best option for the army on a competitive basis. The technical task for the performers from the Ministry of Defense was issued at the same time, and almost simultaneously, in the 1982 year, both cars took off. The presented samples reflected the difference in approaches to solving the problem of creating a new, promising combat helicopter.
    Interesting. Who thinks about defense? Both verticals are good and necessary. Athletes))
  28. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 31 January 2016 17: 24 New
    0
    very good article, all sensible! thank!
  29. The comment was deleted.
  30. Realist1989
    Realist1989 31 January 2016 22: 14 New
    +3
    An interesting article, it is nice to read the opinions of people involved in making important decisions.
    IMHO, it would be reasonable to formally separate the Mi-28N and Ka-52 in the niches of attack and reconnaissance-attack helicopters, by analogy with the American Apache and Kiowa Warrior. I think then everything would fall into place, and in the debate on the topic of need / uselessness (which one is better / worse) one could put an end to it.
  31. Wolka
    Wolka 1 February 2016 08: 25 New
    0
    a good article, really our Ka-52 and Mi-28N dragon-flyers are like motorized infantry and special forces, each with his own and each in his own way, but the army bureaucracy is depressing, which remains and everything is going through the roof today, even when there is money for both .. .
  32. complete zero
    complete zero 1 February 2016 09: 06 New
    0
    Thanks to the author for a great article
  33. Kvaigon
    Kvaigon 1 February 2016 09: 31 New
    0
    I will express my opinion of a couch expert who is far from aviation.
    1. The helicopters are about the same in mass, but in the thickness of the armor they carry !?
    2. The article touches upon the moment of shelling of the Ka-50 / Ka-52 blades from below with small arms, but the Kamovites did not provide a report (most likely they conducted tests, but they are in no hurry to publish them)

    Here from these two statements we can draw conclusions.
    Mi-28 is a well-armored front-line helicopter, is preparing to replace its predecessor Mi-24 / Mi-35.
    And the Ka-52 is a special operations helicopter.
    I just don’t understand people who praise the Ka-52 as an ideal machine, you can’t send it to the front edge, even if the screws overlap even from the fire of small arms (and this has not yet been disproved).

    PS Just about this and it is written in the article.
  34. shifro
    shifro 1 February 2016 10: 07 New
    0
    the article, just, shows what "mind" used to make decisions on the adoption of one type or another. And how many are now adhering to such decisions?
  35. Nasty
    Nasty 1 February 2016 11: 10 New
    0
    Unfortunately, until now "not all issues have been resolved." As well as the promised NSCU (helmet-mounted target designation system) literally shortly. So far, things have not moved further than prototypes.
    Is it so bad? Although, I heard that the tail radar of the Su-34 still does not work ... More than it seems to be true.
  36. LenaHink
    LenaHink 1 February 2016 13: 04 New
    -5
    Welcome to my new face-to-face private video chat right now with a sexy beautiful model.
    I invite all curious men to my video chat.

    I am here till the evening: http://minyetki.ru If you are already big, click here.
  37. LenaHink
    LenaHink 1 February 2016 13: 04 New
    0
    Welcome to my new face-to-face private video chat right now with a sexy beautiful model.
    I invite all curious men to my video chat.

    I am here till the evening: http://minyetki.ru If you are already big, click here.
  38. belroni
    belroni 1 February 2016 13: 34 New
    0
    and we plowed ...)
  39. Santjaga_Garka
    Santjaga_Garka 1 February 2016 17: 54 New
    0
    Huge respect to the author, how good it is that such specialists have served in our army! The article is very interesting and informative, did not know very much of this information, thanks!
  40. Anddy
    Anddy 1 February 2016 19: 41 New
    +2
    So myths and legends turn into history. Milevtsi never removed their helicopter from the competition. Moreover, after losing the first comparative tests, they achieved another through the lobby. Their Mi-28 also lost. Then they dragged another third test, which ended with the next loss of the Mi-28. So they held out until 1990. And when finally the Ka-50 was adopted by the USSR, it ended, and with it the money in the military budget.
    1. Just BB
      Just BB 2 February 2016 05: 54 New
      0
      Moreover, they, through the "close" "high-sitting" military, in every possible way convinced influential people that their helicopter was just a "modernization" of the successful Mi-24, which means it was cheaper, and the Kamov car had no cargo compartment (in case, there was nowhere to pick up a downed comrade) and only one pilot (and if they kill, then the selected one will also die)
      I myself had to hear this at the "symposium" from people who worked (time ... - it was 1990) on the 28th.
  41. Molchanov
    Molchanov 15 February 2016 21: 59 New
    0
    In fact, the Ka 52 has many design flaws, it is too overweight and not suitable for direct combat operations on a theater. The forerunner of the 28H is the well-tested Mi 24, which went through baptism of fire in Afghanistan and in many local conflicts. Based on this experience, the Mi 28 was designed. The tandem cockpit offers great advantages at low altitudes and gives a smaller share of the dead zone.
  42. HELIX
    HELIX 18 June 2016 16: 27 New
    0
    Thanks for the article, so to speak, first-hand, very interesting!