The representative of the Navy: the construction of diesel-electric submarines "Lada" will be terminated

Submarines of the 677 "Lada" project will no longer be built, funding will be directed to the "Kalina" project (improved "Lada"), reports Look with reference to RIA News.

At the moment, the head boat of the St. Petersburg project is undergoing testing, the other two are being built at the Admiralty Shipyards.

"Command fleet decided to finish building two boats of Project 677 "Lada" and stop construction on this. All three boats of this project will be included in the combat structure of the Baltic Fleet. Financing will be directed to the Kalina project, ”an unnamed Navy representative told the agency.

According to him, the new project "Kalina", on which the Central Design Bureau "Rubin" is working, provides for the installation of an anaerobic (air independent) power plant on the submarine.

Help newspaper: "The head submarine of the project 677" St. Petersburg "(code" Lada ") was laid in 1997 year, launched in 2004 year and is in trial operation of the Navy with 2010 year. The ship’s displacement is 1765 tons, the maximum immersion depth of 300 meters, the crew of 35 people, autonomy up to 45 days. "

Comments

[inkass_98]

It’s high time, the Germans are already operating such boats with might and main.

[oldseaman1957]

Quote: inkass_98

the Germans are already operating such boats with might and main.

- What is not being done is for the better. A non-volatile power plant is not a step, it is a leap forward!

[Vladimirets]

Quote: oldseaman1957

this is not a step, this is a leap forward!

For us, yes, this is a leap to catch up with the leaders.

[Inok10]

Quote: Vladimirets

For us, yes, this is a leap to catch up with the leaders.

... leadership is a conditional concept .. ours took a completely different path when creating an anaerobic (non-volatile) power plant .. well, who has managed to solve the problem better and cheaper, we will see ..

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Inok10

ours completely went the other way when creating an anaerobic (non-volatile) power plant

While ours are walking, others are already walking, sorry for the pun. You can further minus, but China, France, Sweden, Japan, Germany, the United States have or had boats with VNEU, so talking about our "leap" is not particularly appropriate.

[dauria]

, so talking about our "leap" is not particularly appropriate.

So you are aware of our principle of VNU? Or, still not? Well, and if it is, for example, a mini-reactor for charging the battery? Of course, I am also a frenzied pessimist, but not to the same extent (no offense)

This is true, note:
Recently, an American consortium of federal laboratories for technology transfer (FLC) presented the Notable Technology Development Award from Hyperion Power Generation from Santa Fe. An outstanding achievement is Hyperion Power Module, an almost domestic nuclear power reactor.

Hyperion is an extremely compact plant powered by low enriched uranium. It is capable of delivering electrical power of 25-27 megawatts

[Vladimirets]

Quote: dauria

So you are aware of our principle of VNU?

Of course not. Only comrade like too

Quote: oldseaman1957

A non-volatile power plant is not a step, it is a leap forward!

Quote: dauria

Of course, I am also a frenzied pessimist, but not to the same extent

Yes, I'm not a pessimist, just screaming cheers! a bit early.

Quote: dauria

(no offense)

Yes, what insults.

[sa-ag]

Quote: dauria

Are you aware of our principle of VNU?

Well, they wrote like that - producing hydrogen by reforming solariums and burning it in fuel cells, then to an electric motor

[Inok10]

Quote: dauria

Hyperion is an extremely compact plant powered by low enriched uranium. It is capable of delivering electrical power of 25-27 megawatts

.. exactly .. low enriched uranium .. ours went, as always, in a different way ..

The first prototype of a new atomic power source - the so-called nuclear battery - will appear in Russia by 2017, said Peter Gavrilov, director of the FSUE MCC (Mining and Chemical Combine, part of Rosatom).
Such “charging” based on the beta radiation source of the nickel-63 isotope can supply electronic devices with power for almost 50 years. The manufacture of the new device is based on the beta-voltaic effect, due to which beta radiation is converted into electricity. The atomic power source has huge potential in the space industry, various underwater systems, medicine and the defense industry, and in the future in the transport industry.
We have already made targets, nickel-62 in Zheleznogorsk has already been worked out, in October we plan to load the targets in the reactor, it will take about a year, ”Tavs Gavrilova said.“ That is, at the end of 2016 we will produce nickel-63. By 2017, the first prototype of such a battery will appear, it is premature to expect earlier. ”
The uniqueness of the atomic battery is also in size. Compared to lithium-ion batteries, the nickel-63 battery is 30 times smaller. In addition, it is environmentally friendly and harmless to humans due to the production of soft beta radiation, which is self-absorbing inside the battery and does not go out.

..

[BaLaLaykin]

If you remember how Kiriyenko was not called names when he was prime minister, but he came in very handy as the general director of ROSATOM

[ver_]

... announce the whole list, please ..

[Boa kaa]

Quote: dauria

Hyperion is an extremely compact installation

Colleague, this is a coastal, not a transport reactor. The difference is in the volume of life span, pitching, and other "movement elements". Let me remind you that Dollezhal's egg (VAU-6) was born much earlier (1985) and was used for transport on the 651E project (K / B-68 aircraft) until 1993.
And do not say anything about the transport version of Hyperion?

[MMX]

This is true, note:
Recently, an American consortium of federal laboratories for technology transfer (FLC) presented the Notable Technology Development Award from Hyperion Power Generation from Santa Fe. An outstanding achievement is Hyperion Power Module, an almost domestic nuclear power reactor.

Hyperion is an extremely compact plant powered by low enriched uranium. It is capable of delivering electrical power of 25-27 megawatts

What does this have to do with the Kalina project?

[Technical engineer]

Quote: dauria

Recently, an American consortium of federal laboratories for technology transfer (FLC) presented the Notable Technology Development Award from Hyperion Power Generation from Santa Fe. An outstanding achievement is Hyperion Power Module, an almost domestic nuclear power reactor.

At the beginning of the 60-x, in the USSR, a small-sized nuclear power plant WOW-6 with a capacity of 600 kW was created. She was supposed to be placed in an airtight container, mounted under a sturdy hull in the rear of the DIESEL SUBMARINE !!! to provide her with a long underwater stroke and recharge batteries. A more powerful installation of “0-153” was created for the same purpose. So that the Americans caught up with the USSR

[Inok10]

Quote: Vladimirets

While ours are walking, others are already walking, sorry for the pun. You can further minus, but China, France, Sweden, Japan, Germany, the United States have or had boats with VNEU, so talking about our "leap" is not particularly appropriate.

.. I don’t put any cons in the discussions .. and let them go as much as they like .. the German installation requires a supply of high purity hydrogen and drags the supply in cylinders .. but how will it end ?! .. hydrogen then? .. mustache sailed? .. our project provides for the production of hydrogen directly on board, from diesel fuel by the reforming method .. the United States does not have diesel boats at all, this is so for information .. in Russia there has been a proverb for centuries: .. Measure seven times, cut once ..

[goose]

Quote: Vladimirets

While ours are walking, others are already walking, sorry for the pun. You can further minus, but China, France, Sweden, Japan, Germany, the United States have or had boats with VNEU, so talking about our "leap" is not particularly appropriate.

This is what kind of submarine in the USA has VNEU?
It seemed to me that only the Germans and the Japanese had modern VNEUs, the rest had semi-experimental installations, like we have on the Lada.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Inok10

the US doesn’t have diesel boats at all

Quote: goose

This is what kind of submarine in the USA has VNEU?

Not now. But, in the United States under the state programs "US Navy Ship Service Fuel Cell Program" and "US Navy Advanced Fuel Cell Program" by Energy Research Corporation, Ballard, McDermott Technology, Inc. power plants based on AFC, PEMFC and SOFC were created using hydrogen or JP-5, JP-8, F-76 (Navy Distillate Fuel) as fuel.

[Inok10]

Quote: Vladimirets

Not now. But, in the United States under the state programs "US Navy Ship Service Fuel Cell Program" and "US Navy Advanced Fuel Cell Program" by Energy Research Corporation, Ballard, McDermott Technology, Inc. power plants based on AFC, PEMFC and SOFC were created

.. really so .. but you need to negotiate to the end .. the full quote is:

In the US as part of the US Navy Ship Service Fuel government program
Cell Program and US Navy Advanced Fuel Cell Program by Energy
Research Corporation, Ballard, McDermott Technology, Inc. energy
AFC, PEMFC, and SOFC based plants, used as fuel
hydrogen-containing or JP-5, JP-8, F-76 (Navy Distillate Fuel) up to 2500 kW. Currently, low-power installations for ground equipment and uninhabited underwater vehicles have been developed. focused on the use of "single fuel" of NATO. This simplifies their supply, which is important when conducting NATO operations on remote theater.

.. highlighted .. the most important .. Source: Romanov A.D., Romanov I.D., Chernyshov E.A., Romanova E.A. Development of con-
“single fuel” chains in NATO countries // International Journal of Applied and
basic research. - 2014. - No. 9. - S. 34-37. ..

[Boa kaa]

Quote: goose

This is what kind of submarine in the USA has VNEU?

I apologize! But the question is inherently incorrect!
For ALL submarines go to nuclear weapons, working without air. Therefore, the answer is logical: 100% of US submarines - have air-independent power plants. But the crew still breathes air! Therefore, no fleet has 100% non-volatile submarines yet!
It would be more correct to say: what kind of USA has NPLs?

[VP]

This is when you have China, USA, France managed to build diesel-electric submarines with VNEU?
Do not tell the names of the head?
Only two countries have. And then the concepts of VNEU are ambiguous.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: VP

This is when you have China, USA, France managed to build diesel-electric submarines with VNEU?
Do not tell the names of the head?

It is possible that the Chinese type 041 is already equipped with VNEU. The French have Agosta and Scorpio. About Americans here http://topwar.ru/72632-nerealizovannyy-amerikanskiy-proekt-podvodnogo-sredstva-d
ostavki-boevyh-plovcov.html

[GRAY]

Quote: VP

This is when you have China, USA, France managed to build diesel-electric submarines with VNEU?

In the USSR, in the 50s, tests of boats with VNEU took place.

After the war in the USSR, one of the deputies of Helmut Walter, a certain Franz Statetskiy, expressed a desire to work. Statetski and the “technical intelligence” group for the export of military technology from Germany under the leadership of Admiral L. A. Korshunov found in Germany the Bruner-Kanis-Raider company, which was a subcontractor in the manufacture of Walther’s turbine units.

To copy a German submarine with Walther’s propulsion system, first in Germany and then in the USSR under the leadership of A. A. Antipin an “Antipin Bureau” was created, an organization from which, thanks to the efforts of the chief designer of the submarines (captain I rank) A. A. Antipin the Rubin LMBP and the Malachite SPMB were formed.

The task of the bureau was to copy the achievements of the Germans in new submarines (diesel, electric, steam and gas turbines), but the main task was to repeat the speeds of German submarines with the Walter cycle.

As a result of the work done, it was possible to completely restore the documentation, manufacture (partly from German, partly from newly manufactured units) and test the steam and gas turbine installation of German boats of the XXVI series.

After that, it was decided to build a Soviet submarine with the engine of Walter. Subject development of submarines with PSTU Walter called the project 617.
In 1951, a project 617 boat, called the S-99, was laid in Leningrad at factory No. 196. On April 21, 1955, the boat was put to state tests completed on March 20, 1956. The test results indicate: ... For the first time, an underwater speed of 20 knots was reached for 6 hours ....

In 1956-1958, Project 643 large boats were designed with a surface displacement of 1865 tons and already with two Voltaire State Technical University. However, in connection with the creation of a preliminary design of the first Soviet submarines with nuclear power plants, the project was closed. But the research at the Perm State Technical University of the S-99 boat did not stop, but was transferred to the mainstream of considering the possibility of using the Walter engine in the giant T-15 torpedo under development with an atomic charge, proposed by Sakharov to destroy US naval bases and ports. The T-15 was supposed to have a length of 24 m, an underwater range of up to 40-50 miles, and carry a thermonuclear warhead capable of causing an artificial tsunami to destroy coastal cities of the United States.

[Technical engineer]

The first such boats were the Germans during the war years, the second the USSR in the fifties. So, you should not think that anaerobic plants, something new. Just something anaerobic submarines will be inferior to conventional diesel-electric submarines. Although the other is superior. The question is simply which parameter is in priority. Underwater speed or noiselessness.

[Victor bg]

Something reminds me of "Lada-Kalina" (I write from Togliatti ..)

[Aleksey_K]

Quote: oldseaman1957

Quote: inkass_98

the Germans are already operating such boats with might and main.

- What is not being done is for the better. A non-volatile power plant is not a step, it is a leap forward!

Why on earth was this a leap forward? I would call it a belated recognition of foreign achievements.
In Sweden, in 1988, the Nakken-type head submarine was converted to Stirling engines. With them she went under water for more than 10 000 hours. The Swedes ushered in an era of submarine shipbuilding ancillary anaerobic propulsion systems.
Russia at that time (USSR), under the control of the traitor Gorbachev, began to slide into the abyss. The submarine fleet was not up to anaerobic propulsion systems.

[Inok10]

Quote: Алексей_К

Why on earth was this a leap forward? I would call it a belated recognition of foreign achievements.
In Sweden, in 1988, the Nakken-type head submarine was converted to Stirling engines. With them she went under water for more than 10 000 hours. The Swedes ushered in an era of submarine shipbuilding ancillary anaerobic propulsion systems.

.. different approach to solving the problem .. The characteristics of the new Russian engine were not disclosed, but it is known for sure: it belongs to the type of air-independent power plants. Such engines have the most advanced German diesel-electric submarines of the U-212 and U-214 projects to date. The Russian anaerobic power plant is based on the conversion of chemical energy into electrical energy without movement and combustion. In fact, it is an electrochemical generator where a chemical reaction occurs - a combination of oxygen and hydrogen, while the electricity is released silently, and the only by-product of the process is distilled water. The efficiency of such an installation reaches 70 percent, and the noise level of the submarine on the anaerobic course is lower than natural sea noise ..

[NIKNN]

Quote: Inok10

and the noise level of the submarine on the anaerobic course is lower than natural sea noise ..

Sorry amateur but did not understand how? Doesn't she have screws and related moving parts? What is the principle of propulsion?

[FREGATENKAPITAN]

10000 hours is how? At a time? Or even an hour 10000 times? ..... More specifically, write if you understand the essence of the problem ...... about. What to write .... about air-independent installations already wrote ... I will not repeat ... the fact that the boats ours went already in the 50-60s such ...

[APASUS]

Quote: oldseaman1957

Quote: inkass_98

the Germans are already operating such boats with might and main.

- What is not being done is for the better. A non-volatile power plant is not a step, it is a leap forward!

What kind of hatcozacidones again?
The Americans do not build closed-loop boats on the basis of anaerobic tubes although a similar engine was created back in 1986, but why not answer? The USSR and now Russia has been carrying out technological development for almost 50 years and .......... .
The Germans came to the conclusion that there is a dead end in this technology and are slowly starting to abandon it.
Refusal to build boats of Project 677 "Lada" I consider a mistake, according to available information, our engine still has "childhood diseases" and needs improvement, not to mention that it is inferior to the German one.

The reports of the American Physical Society and the National Academy of Sciences of the USA note: in order to implement the program of widespread use of hydrogen energy it is necessary to make a technological breakthrough in at least 100 areas of modern science

[FREGATENKAPITAN]

The Germans came to the conclusion that there is a dead end in this technology and are slowly starting to abandon it....... that’s the truth ... I’ll supplement my post above ... that in the 60s ours already went and then the program was closed.

[Evgeniy667b]

What's the jump? So far, only one project with a smart look. And the Goal is further and further ... So that there will be no alternative to the "Varshavyanka" for a long time. They should be built! And not 6 regular ones for the Pacific Fleet, but much more ...

[Platonich]

the Swedes invented it in 1988!

[Maxom75]

Apparently, what was expected didn’t go, did you decide to immediately jump over the generation?

[shans2]

just project 677 "Lada" is unsuccessful, it is easier to create a new one from scratch, taking into account new developments

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Maxom75

Apparently, what was expected didn’t go, did you decide to immediately jump over the generation?

A series of 3 (5th generation, Lada) essentially became a test ball for the introduction of non-nuclear energy in submarines (NPL).
"St. Petersburg" by the end of construction did not receive the installation promised by the industry. The stand and the compartment on the submarine are two big differences, as they said in Odessa. The stand VNEU on the ship did not pull ... 60 (70)% of the nominal is the failure to fulfill the TTZ. Nobody will take responsibility by deciding to build a large series of "underfuel"? Vysotsky, just as he merged Bark, also leaked Lada, saying that the fleet did not need such boats.
Then the naval "drew attention" to the "wonderful" capabilities of LIAB !!! And already the designers from Rubin screamed about the tremendous capacity of such AB, giving 2500 h / A from one element, for underwater movement. As a way out of the situation, we decided to put them on the 2nd building of Lada (Kronstadt) and see what happens (the 3rd is still reserved for VNEU). But the intrigue developed further.
Brothers "Tatars" from the Kazan Institute of Organic and Physical Chemistry. AE Arbuzova, "experimenting" with palladium and platinum membranes, suddenly discovered that precious "products" can be replaced (without compromising the quality of hydrogen) with organic ones !!! And at once everything becomes profitable: the price falls, the attractiveness of the "non-gold" installation increases sharply.
Next, more. "Sarov" skated our VNEU at sea. It reached its design capacity (300, according to other sources - 400 kW), while the best "for a ruble ebony" installations = only 180 kW. Light dawned at the end of the tunnel!
Science and promises have sworn on the Bible that they will do by 2018, and by 2019 they will put a transport version of the installation on the ship. Therefore, Chirkov, leaving the reserve, decided to build Kalina. The Queen in the Northern Fleet needs nuclear-powered submarines and 6th generation nuclear submarines to close the BMZ fleet and to ensure the deployment of the main missile-based submarine. Therefore, Lada with the whole herd and go to the BF! What is very good for the fleet, because who will comb Gotland.
That's where the foreign interest in our VNEU came from.
And Kalina - it is cured from childhood diseases Lada. But an ambush is also expected here if our experimenters fulfill the threat of equipping the ship with modular structures and uninhabited underwater vehicles. Then we will definitely wait until 2025 for the wunderwaffle of the domestic fleet, which has no analogues in the world.
Best regards,

[Nehist]

Since when is Lada the fifth generation?

[Marconi41]

Which, in fact, was required to prove. Everyone (the factory, the fleet) suffered with Lada and finally abandoned her. We are waiting for Kalina, perhaps it will be a more successful version of the DPL. By the way, in the USSR and Russia there were very few unsuccessful submarine projects. Perhaps, apart from Lada, nothing else comes to mind.

[Stirbjorn]

Yes, there were so many jingoistic patriotic comments in the articles about her, but in fact the project was closed. The 8th year of trial operation speaks volumes. I hope "Kalina" will be truly new and modern

[V.ic]

Quote: Stirbjorn

The 8th year of trial operation speaks volumes. I hope "Kalina" will be truly new and modern

It was not for nothing that Alla Borisovna sang: "If you suffer for a long time, something will work out."

[Ajent cho]

Alla Borisovna sang

Words: Derbenev L.
Music: Zatsepin A.
Pugacheva was only a performer. Good, but - all his life a performer.

[Locksmith]

Quote: Ajent Cho

Pugacheva was only a performer. Good, but - all his life a performer.

She and her songs are full, and as a composer and as a poetess, see carefully the discography

[Aksakal_07]

Quote: Marconi41

We are waiting for Kalina, perhaps it will be a more successful version of the DPL. By the way, in the USSR and Russia there were very few unsuccessful submarine projects. Perhaps, apart from Lada, nothing else comes to mind.

I hope that the submarines of the Kalina and Lada series will still not repeat the fate of the Soviet-Russian cars of the same name ?!

[nekot]

We must immediately go to Vesta)))

[Anton Gavrilov]

I hope that the submarines of the Kalina and Lada series will still not repeat the fate of the Soviet-Russian cars of the same name ?!

But Lada has already repeated the news of the completion of the series on 3's ships, and the order of 6 Warsaw for the Pacific Fleet is proof of this.

The construction of Kalina will unfold in the middle of the next decade.

If the story with Lada repeats here, then the gap between us and a number of enemies in the NAPL will be calculated already for two generations ....

[avt]

Quote: Marconi41

. Everyone (the factory, the fleet) suffered with Lada and finally abandoned her. We are waiting for Kalina, perhaps it will be a more successful version of the DPL.

Yesterday I already wrote - the Swedes should be asked to do Vesta with a stirring. But seriously, there are NO replacements for the 636th project, as evidenced by yesterday’s message about the series for the 636.6s TOF, and there IS NOTHING to build anything besides it - well, they will complete two more buildings of the 677s, but the campaign must be in option 636 bis, but rather 636 K, well, by analogy with the 68 cruisers completed as 68K. Alas! It remains only to wait for a new project not earlier than the 20th.

[goose]

Quote: avt

Well, by analogy with the 68 cruisers completed as 68K

And yet, the work of the cruisers was found.

[sa-ag]

Quote: avt

Yesterday I already wrote - the Swedes should be asked to do Vesta with a stirring.

Better than the Japanese, they have the most powerful stirling on Sorya

[avt]

Quote: sa-ag

Better than the Japanese, they have the most powerful stirling on Sorya

These then us "Karola" some kind of bungled.

[DenZ]

It is impossible to say so unambiguously whether the "Lada" is successful or not, the solutions worked out on it will go to 2Kalina ", therefore," Lada "in general is not a dead-end branch of development.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Marconi41

Everyone (the factory, the fleet) suffered with Lada and finally abandoned her.

More than 677 inventions, equipment samples and new technical solutions have been introduced on 130 projects. All of them are on a ship and are being tested by sea in real conditions. On Lada, "childhood diseases" of this technique are identified and eliminated. The boat is in trial operation, but this does not mean that it is unable to accept the BZ and complete the assigned task. On the ship, science and industries are permanent people, the boat is not crammed into the schedules of use by the fleet, so the work on fine-tuning the equipment goes on without hindrance. And you say, "abandoned."

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

More than 677 inventions, equipment samples and new technical solutions have been introduced on 130 projects. All of them are on a ship and are being tested by sea in real conditions. On Lada, "childhood diseases" of this technique are identified and eliminated. The boat is in trial operation, but this does not mean that it is unable to accept the BZ and complete the assigned task. On the ship, science and industries are permanent people, the boat is not crammed into the schedules of use by the fleet, so the work on fine-tuning the equipment goes on without hindrance. And you say, "abandoned."

They abandoned it because the Pacific Fleet is preparing an order for 6 Varshavyanka, and not the more advanced, in words, Lad - this is the main argument.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Stirbjorn

the Pacific Fleet is preparing an order for 6 "Varshavyanka", and not more advanced, in words, "Lad" - this is the main argument.

Submarine pr 636.3 is 2 times larger, which corresponds to the Ocean scale. Then, Tryapichnikov (personally familiar) spoke about the revision under the Pacific Fleet. LIAB will probably get it. Then, the boat has great modernization potential. VNEU will work, they will pierce the compartment - here you have NAPL. And in terms of armament, she is able to keep the entire Japanese fleet in tension.
Something like that, I guess.

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

Submarine pr 636.3 is 2 times larger, which corresponds to the Ocean scale.

And then why was it built at the Black Sea Fleet 6 Varshavyanka, once the Ocean scale? None of the specialists even stuttered about VNEU in Varshavyanki

[prabiz]

Of course, you need to go forward, no matter how good frets!

[Stirbjorn]

Would be good, would be put into series, like the same Warsaw

[midashko]

Air-independent power plant on a diesel-electric submarine. That's cool. I would like to know the principle of its work, if possible.

But in general it is already a boat of a new class. Well done, our developers.

[Stirbjorn]

Well done when the new submarine goes on combat duty. While this is just a project

[GRAY]

Quote: midashko

I would like to know the principle of its work, if possible.

On hydrogen fuel cells, most likely. In them, the reaction of the combination of hydrogen and oxygen with the formation of water and the release of heat.

Electricity is produced by combining hydrogen and oxygen, which are supplied from the air to the proton exchange membrane in a stack of fuel cells.

(Whatever it means )

[donavi49]

Not two options.

Reactor with hydrogen.
Stirling - but stirling will require a revolution in engine building at least in a separate complex (traditional knocks, troits, the main thing works, take the engine will not take off) and support the cosmic culture of production. Stirling has fantastic requirements for precision manufacturing, and these are machines that are quite difficult to get now, and for that class of machine tools it’s the turn of 5 + years. These are unique requirements for build quality, individual debugging of each engine, numerous tests, on-site commissioning, proper monitoring and maintenance.

However, in general - Stirling is cheaper in operation and safer, the reactor is more demanding, difficult to operate.

The Germans have a reactor.
China, Norway, Japan have Stirling.

[ver_]

... stirling is an external combustion engine ... in the element it is a blowtorch heating surface .., the only advantage is that there are no valves (gas distribution system) ..., low revs and higher efficiency ..

[Yak-3P]

no-no-no, if the car is Mig-ohm or Yak-ohm then yes .. but it’s not ..

[Dezinto]

By the way, the Americans back in the 1960s created their anaerobic engine, but did not use it, since at about the same time they completely abandoned diesel submarines and only made nuclear ones. Nevertheless, today the technology of non-volatile engines is used in several countries of the world that patrol in inland seas. In limited water areas, boats of this type can cope with the same tasks as nuclear submarines, but at a lower cost. It is necessary to develop such technology in Russia: without a modern power plant, submarines become uncompetitive at sea and in the arms market; recently, foreign buyers demand, put forward conditions - to put an anaerobic engine on non-nuclear submarines. ”

The main trend in the development of submarines will always be a further increase in stealth. Small submarines equipped with air-independent power plants, according to experts, are considered the standard of invisibility, and not without reason. For example, during two exercises in the Atlantic in 2003, the Swedish Halland boat with anaerobic engines, which was used as a training target, outplayed the Spanish submarine with a conventional diesel-electric installation in a duel situation, and then the French nuclear submarine. Later, Halland in the Mediterranean managed to get away from the American nuclear submarine Houston (type Los Angeles). It should be noted that the low-noise and high-performance Halland costs 4,5 times cheaper than its nuclear rivals.

[mav1971]

Quote: DEZINTO

It should be noted that the low-noise and high-performance Halland costs 4,5 times cheaper than its atomic rivals.

Well, do not forget that submarines such as Gotland are clearly defensive. And the rest with VNEU.
In the coastal zone they have no equal.
They do not have strategic significance, due to low autonomy (no more than 30 days).

[11 black]

Quote: mav1971

Well, do not forget that submarines such as Gotland are clearly defensive. And the rest with VNEU.
In the coastal zone they have no equal.
They do not have strategic significance, due to low autonomy (no more than 30 days).

Well, 30 days under water, it's up to America and back - so who knows ...

[mav1971]

Quote: 11 black

Quote: mav1971

Well, do not forget that submarines such as Gotland are clearly defensive. And the rest with VNEU.
In the coastal zone they have no equal.
They do not have strategic significance, due to low autonomy (no more than 30 days).

Well, 30 days under water, it's up to America and back - so who knows ...

At VNEU - no more than a week. Fuel will say "FSE, it's over"
The rest is under the RDP.
There is no question of any real threat in the attack.
Only protection and only coastal.

Infrastructure in wartime conditions is destroyed instantly. The needs for liquid oxygen and liquid hydrogen are considerable plants.
The chances of surviving a minuscule.
Storage, long - minuscule.
So, a great toy in the absence of conflict!

[Antanas]

German-made Israeli anaerobic "Dolphins" have an autonomy of 30 days and a cruising range of up to 8000 miles.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: mav1971

They do not have strategic significance, due to low autonomy (no more than 30 days).

Not autonomy, but carried weapon determines the "strategic" of the carrier.

[mav1971]

Quote: BoA KAA

Quote: mav1971

They do not have strategic significance, due to low autonomy (no more than 30 days).

Not autonomy, but carried weapon determines the "strategic" of the carrier.

Yes, I understand the identity with which intercontinental nuclear weapons = strategic.
It always seemed to me that strategic is not equal to atomic at 100%.
There are also strategic tasks.


As an example of a strategic purpose.
If the 30 submarines can block all the naval communications of the adversary in the form of a whole continent, having traveled 7-8 thousand miles and staying for such a long period, then this is a strategic task.
The submarine is within reach.
DEPL with VNEU - no.

[aleks 62 next]

..... I’m wondering .... Judging by the size of the boat and measuring them with the size of people (pictured), how everything fits there ???? .... The impression is like sprats in a bank .... And because the crew is relatively small ....

[WUA 518]

Quote: aleks 62 next

how everything fits there

[Marconi41]

I don’t know how in Lada, but in Varshavyanka there used to be quiet horror. In any case, I thought so. Shponok for l / s only in two shifts, each does not have one. Fortunately, they didn’t run far and not for long.

[aleks 62 next]

.... Shkonok for l / s only in two shifts, each does not have its own. ...

.... I believe that we have not gone far from this .... Unfortunately .... Sitting there for 45 days is far from a pleasure ....

[Rader]

Quote: Marconi41

I don’t know how in Lada, but in Varshavyanka there used to be quiet horror. In any case, I thought so. Shponok for l / s only in two shifts, each does not have one. Fortunately, they didn’t run far and not for long.

Well, the Yankees on Elk (if memory serves) have one berth for two, and after all an atomic, not a DEP ... Well, you have to face the fact that non-nuclear submarines will be inferior in comfort to atomic for a long time and will not them saunas and pools like the Typhoons

[FREGATENKAPITAN]

I will surprise you now ....... on Elks and other miracles of American thought ..... personnel sleep in turns in three shifts in bunks in three rows along the central aisle ....... shuttered shut and forgotten. ..like this !

[Rader]

Quote: aleks 62 next

..... I’m wondering .... Judging by the size of the boat and measuring them with the size of people (pictured), how everything fits there ???? .... The impression is like sprats in a bank .... And because the crew is relatively small ....

Think closely? Show this photo to WWII submariners who went into battle on this

[Yak-3P]

30 days of autonomy .. roughly .. and there is no window to float up - snorkel - start a diesel engine - charge the accumulators .. depths of immersion up to 400 m .. for a day at 20 knots will go far .. what kind of garden to fence ???

[cosmos-PS]

The Lada project was originally supposed to be with an anaerobic plant. But with the installation, they were busy for a long time and only now something happened. But it seems that the alteration is getting serious and it's easier to start a new project. And it’s not surprising if something has become outdated during this time and needs improvement. It is good that they decided to finish building the last two boats, otherwise they would remodel them under the new project for another five years, not counting the testing and acceptance.

[VNP1958PVN]

Lada-viburnum, red-haired, so somewhere I already saw it ...

[grandson of Perun]

Quote: cosmos-PS

Lada-viburnum, red-haired, so somewhere I already saw it ...

Is that in the delusional fantasies of "humorists", because when coloring Kalin red colors were not used.

[engineer74]

Interestingly, will V. Putin ride such a Kalina across the Far East? On yellow ???

[Region-25.rus]

Quote: Rader

Quote: aleks 62 next

..... I’m wondering .... Judging by the size of the boat and measuring them with the size of people (pictured), how everything fits there ???? .... The impression is like sprats in a bank .... And because the crew is relatively small ....

Think closely? Show this photo to WWII submariners who went into battle on this

In WW2 the Kriegsmarine roamed the Atlantic .... I advise you to read the book by Herbert A. Werner "Steel Coffins". He describes everything in detail, and everyday life, and the war, and much more!

[Rader]

In WW2 the Kriegsmarine roamed the Atlantic .... I advise you to read the book by Herbert A. Werner "Steel Coffins". He describes everything in detail, and everyday life, and the war, and much more!

Thanks, read! I have already read the memoirs and memoirs of some submariners Krismarine (albeit mostly in snatches) and have already made sure that fighting on "this" was "unpleasant" (sleeping in an embrace with torpedoes, dog cold, latrine does not work ...)
Compared to U-bots Pike and S-cams, the same Varshavyanka is like a 4-star hotel after the hostel

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: Region-25.rus

I advise you to read the book by Herbert A. Verner "Steel Coffins". He describes everything in detail, and everyday life, and the war, and much more!

The book is good. The author is one of the few submariners who went through almost the entire war. And besides, the commander of the submarine that survived

[NEXUS]

The question then arises is: When will the first submarine of the Kalina project be laid?

[chunga-changa]

In the west, a stirling engine is used. Since the 80s, now the main players are building the third generation of boats with VNEU. Hydrogen and oxygen are stored in the tanks on board the submarines; they ensure the operation of the engine by combustion. The engine turns the generator, the generator gives current, the current is used to move and charge the batteries. Oxygen and hydrogen are charged into tanks from the shore, where there is an installation for their production.
Ours are developing a fuel cell engine "By catalytic reforming of diesel fuel". Those. hydrogen is obtained from kerosene on board the submarine, oxygen is stored in tanks, then everything is like with foreigners.
In general, the difference is only in the method of producing hydrogen, foreigners are preparing it on the shore, ours are on board the submarine. Because of this difference, all the boron cheese. At one time, it was thought that it’s easier, you do not need to build hydrogen production plants near military bases. It turned out that the problem of reforming was not so easy to solve, as a result, we still do not have a modern non-nuclear submarine with VNEU and the prospects are still somewhat vague.
In general, as a result of the ineradicable desire to come up with our own bike that has no world analogues, we lag behind generations of non-nuclear submarines. The Swedes are now designing and building the fourth generation of submarines with VNEU, the Germans - the third, the French - the third, the Japanese - like the second, South Korea - the first on the basis of the German second, India - the first, on the basis of the French second. Even the Dutch are building with the Spaniards and Brazilians.
Submarines without VNEU are now interested in countries of the level of Vietnam-Algeria. India has announced a competition - 6 submarines for 8 billion. We are participating in it purely theoretically, because we can only offer a theoretical Amur-1650, for which there is no VNEU yet. The only hope is that they will carry out it as usual - for five or six years, by that time we may have our own creation, or we will have to install an Indian stirling engine.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: chunga-changa

Those. hydrogen is obtained from kerosene on board the submarine, oxygen is stored in tanks, then everything is like that of foreigners.

There is no kerosene on the boats, only diesel fuel. Our ECG provides electricity, water and heat. Electricity - to move, or to AB. The question is about a single engine, so as not to carry a diesel engine. But this is possible with a 100% guarantee of reliability that no one will give. Nuclear carriers and those have DG ...

Quote: chunga-changa

We lag behind non-nuclear submarines for generations.

We do not have NPL yet.
But in 2019 (God forbid that everything was according to plan!) We will become the most advanced country in the NPL race. This was already understood by deutschers and quietly picking our and Amer’s theme with reforming and direct electrochemical reaction with the release of electricity without mechanically displaced elements of electric power. This technology gives an efficiency of up to 75%.

[cte power]

Lada Junk
viburnum too
DEP WEST it’s time to launch under water!

[kim. 230752]

I hope that the submarines of the Kalina and Lada series will still not repeat the fate of the Soviet-Russian cars of the same name?! [/ Quote]

By car "Lada-Kalina" I visited Paris, Prague, Krakow, Copenhagen, Oslo, Trondheim, Stockholm, Tallinn, Tbilisi, Batumi, Istanbul, Erzurum and Kars. So no need to find fault, the domestic car does not fail anywhere !!! Travel reports with a lot of good and interesting photos are here: http://travel.drom.ru/38322/

In the photo: after a trip to Turkey in October 2015, at the Oryol tower in Smolensk.

[Alexey RA]

Turkish swordsman!

[cap]

Quote: kim.230752

By car "Lada-Kalina" I visited Paris, Prague, Krakow, Copenhagen, Oslo, Trondheim, Stockholm, Tallinn, Tbilisi, Batumi, Istanbul, Erzurum and Kars. So no need to find fault, the domestic car does not fail anywhere !!! Travel reports with a lot of good and interesting photos are here: http://travel.drom.ru/38322/

Congratulations on your next rank!

[VohaAhov]

And from our diesel-electric submarines of Project 636.3 can you shoot modern torpedoes of the "Physic-1" type?

[Boa kaa]

Quote: VohaAhov

And from our diesel-electric submarines of Project 636.3 can you shoot modern torpedoes of the "Physic-1" type?

The top two TAs can fire remote-controlled torpedoes. The open press speaks only about TEST-71, but I see no obstacles to the modernization of the BIUS and the TU system in order to use the UGST, especially since it is exhibited for a foreign customer.

[evge-malyshev]

The main thing is that they did not completely freeze, but switched to a new qualitative level. This is encouraging in the current economic situation in the country.

[podgornovea]

Quote: dauria

, so talking about our "leap" is not particularly appropriate.

So you are aware of our principle of VNU? Or, still not? Well, and if it is, for example, a mini-reactor for charging the battery? Of course, I am also a frenzied pessimist, but not to the same extent (no offense)

This is true, note:
Recently, an American consortium of federal laboratories for technology transfer (FLC) presented the Notable Technology Development Award from Hyperion Power Generation from Santa Fe. An outstanding achievement is Hyperion Power Module, an almost domestic nuclear power reactor.

Hyperion is an extremely compact plant powered by low enriched uranium. It is capable of delivering electrical power of 25-27 megawatts

So you know that it will be a mini-reactor for charging the battery? Of course, I, too, am a rabid OPTIMIST, but not to the same extent (no offense)

[15 apr]

somehow not logical, however. When I come, for example, to a car dealership and I wish I fret viburnum. And the manager, at the same time, Kondraty will seize: because, as he will be in prostration, what the client wants is either fret, or viburnum. Which eyeliner? But not a word about vodka !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Radical]

[quote] [/ q
“The command of the fleet made a decision to finish building two boats of Project 677 Lada and stop construction there. All three boats of this project will be included in the combat composition of the Baltic Fleet. Funding will be directed to the Kalina project, ”an unnamed representative of the Navy told the agency.] If you translate this message into ordinary language (philistine), it looks like this: Due to the crisis, all ministries (including the RF Ministry of Defense ) a command was given to reduce the implementation of some programs, projects, so the construction of diesel-electric submarines of the Lada project is terminated, while the financing of the Kalina project, or rather R&D and R&D under this project, requires much less funds. Moreover, there were no official reports about the immediate prospects for the laying and construction of boats of this project.

[Severok]

Or rather not say. You give a salary to deputies of all stripes to modernize the fleet, otherwise the bastards are stuck ....

[for_White_Only]

Well, the name ... If it is as miserable as an under-car, with a similar name - horror.

[Severok]

Seven feet under the keel! If only, as before, our boats were the best!

[Mercenary]

"Varshavyanka" - a black hole, "Lada" - even quieter ... what will "Kalina" do
Well done Fleet Builders !!!!

[iouris]

Probably, the general designer is still forced to drive the domestic Lada-Kalina car. The next submarine will be Vesta.

[repus]

[quote = for_White_Only] [quote = kim.230752] I hope the submarines of the Kalina and Lada series will not repeat the fate of the Soviet-Russian cars of the same name?! [/ quote]

By car "Lada-Kalina" I visited Paris, Prague, Krakow, Copenhagen, Oslo, Trondheim, Stockholm, Tallinn, Tbilisi, Batumi, Istanbul, Erzurum and Kars. So no need to find fault, the domestic car does not fail anywhere !!! Travel reports with a lot of good and interesting photos are here: http://travel.drom.ru/38322/

In the photo: after a trip to Turkey in October 2015, at the Oryol tower in Smolensk. [/ Quote]
Ahah)) well, well) a domestic car never fails anywhere) I haven’t heard such nonsense for a long time) I just bought enough money, but as you admit I bought it homogeneously) pride doesn’t allow it) and funds) the pension is not enough for a normal car. . [/ quote]

For a minus I will report. For example, "Priora", I saw before my eyes, the mileage was 160 thousand km. During the operation, the car stood up once, knocked out the fuse for the power supply of the ignition coils and other electrics on the engine. The reason was a malfunction of the speed sensor (short closure), well, "zatroil" once came out of the standing ignition coil. The most interesting thing is that the service car was used in the structure of the FSB, i.e. drove her into the tail and into the mane without sparing. Not a special vehicle, but just a traveling bibik, which is now being distributed to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and other departments.
Therefore, not everything is so bad with our car industry ...
I’m doing auto diagnostics myself, I have very large statistics on breakdowns of the Russian, Japanese and other automobile industries.

[for_White_Only]

[quote = repus] [quote = for_White_Only] [quote = kim.230752] I hope that submarines of the Kalina and Lada series will not repeat the fate of the same-named Soviet-Russian cars?! [/ quote]

By car "Lada-Kalina" I visited Paris, Prague, Krakow, Copenhagen, Oslo, Trondheim, Stockholm, Tallinn, Tbilisi, Batumi, Istanbul, Erzurum and Kars. So no need to find fault, the domestic car does not fail anywhere !!! Travel reports with a lot of good and interesting photos are here: http://travel.drom.ru/38322/

In the photo: after a trip to Turkey in October 2015, at the Oryol tower in Smolensk. [/ Quote]
Ahah)) well, well) a domestic car never fails anywhere) I haven’t heard such nonsense for a long time) I just bought enough money, but as you admit I bought it homogeneously) pride doesn’t allow it) and funds) the pension is not enough for a normal car. . [/ quote]

For a minus I will report. For example, "Priora", I saw before my eyes, the mileage was 160 thousand km. During the operation, the car stood up once, knocked out the fuse for the power supply of the ignition coils and other electrics on the engine. The reason was a malfunction of the speed sensor (short closure), well, "zatroil" once came out of the standing ignition coil. The most interesting thing is that the service car was used in the structure of the FSB, i.e. drove her into the tail and into the mane without sparing. Not a special vehicle, but just a traveling bibik, which is now being distributed to the Ministry of Internal Affairs and other departments.
Therefore, not everything is so bad with our car industry ...
I’m doing auto diagnostics myself, I have very large statistics on breakdowns of the Russian, Japanese and other automobile industries. [/ Quote]
Do not report back then, after how many years of operation began to rot? I have in 2 winters ..

[grandson of Perun]

You are not the first here and unfortunately not the only fighter of the information-trade war against our mechanical engineering.
In order not to expose your myths and your persecution of our car industry each time, a year ago I wrote in detail about all this on the forum. Here's the link:

http://forum.topwar.ru/topic/610-%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%8

6%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D1%8

0%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2-%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%

BF%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5-%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B8-%D0%

BD%D0%B0%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE-%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B

C% D0% B0

[Hydrograph]

A couple of days ago, with drumming and shouting cheers, they wrote and commented on which Lada is a great boat, now you give Kalina. To ask from designers for national money.

[Andrew]

It is a pity, of course, that the production of this submarine will end with only 3 units! The maximum delivery time is 2019, because as it was written, everything will go to the production of diesel-electric submarines of the new generation (5) of the Kalina project, it will be laid in 2018, and included in the GPV 2018-2025 (I don't remember exactly since 2018). And so it would be good to modernize all diesel-electric submarines of Project 636 "Varshavyanka" for "Lada", because at Lada, systematization is better for this there is a crew (21-35 people). And her invisibility, in childish language, is slightly better than that of Varshavyanka. And it carries not 4 anti-ship missiles / cruise missiles Onyx / Caliber, but already 10 pieces already! Despite the fact that it has a displacement less than that of Varshavyanka (1765 vs 2350), well, there probably is closer than in Varshavyanka! It would be even better if the most combat-ready, ie young and not in need of repair diesel-electric submarines of Project "Halibut" were upgraded to the level of "Lada". Well, I was already dreaming about it!)) This is Kalina, unlike Lada Kalina, has no analogues in the world (at the moment)