Military Review

The Tale of the Forgotten Regiment Kolovratovy

92
The Tale of the Forgotten Regiment Kolovratovy
Monument to Evpaty Kolovrat



With the beginning of democratic reforms in Russia, concepts such as patriotic upbringing, national pride, somehow quietly receded into the background. historical memory and many other “useless” views. Provincial museums are slowly fading from chronic lack of money, history is consciously and maliciously distorted, removed from school textbooks, and many of its heroic pages are hushed up. The memory of the glorious past of one’s country, the feeling of belonging to a great nation is gradually being replaced by abstract "universal values" incomprehensible to most people. Tell me honestly, do you remember one of the brightest pages of our history: the 778th anniversary of the feat of the regiment of the Ryazan voivode Evpatiy Kolovrat, who laid down his head in a battle with the invaders in January 1238? I am sure the vast majority will answer no. A survey on the Internet showed that nine out of ten respondents did not even know what they were talking about, although even a student in the fourth grade of high school knew about this hero 25-30 years ago. To this day, the heroic fate of the Kolovrat detachment is fraught with many unresolved issues and mysteries. Without pretending to be “scientific” in this article and discarding the newfangled theories that “there was no Mongol invasion”, we will try to restore the events of those distant days using some versions and assumptions.

In the winter of 1237, the signal fires from the Ryazan border region sent a message: a trouble unprecedented in its history is coming to Russia. The first victim of the Mongolian conquerors was the Murom-Ryazan principality. The Khan Batu’s notoriously unacceptable offers of submission, the payment of huge tribute, the humiliating demand to give wives for the soldiers ’comfort, the proud Ryazan people refused:“ when we are gone, all your things will be. ” The military art of Russia of those years assumed a battle with the enemies "in the field." The then ruler of Ryazan, Prince Yuri Ingvarevich, could count on his army, tempered in constant clashes with the steppe men, and therefore, gathering the squad and the militia, moved towards the invading enemy, spoke out to prove in fact the words: “it is better for the dead to be than the constrained walk”. In early December, a small Ryazan army was defeated in a bloody battle on the River Ranova. 16 December 1237 after a five-day siege, stepping over the bodies of militiamen, townspeople and peasants from the surrounding villages, the Mongols stormed into Ryazan, on the walls of which there were not enough professional fighters who left with Prince Yuri. The invaders almost completely exterminated all the inhabitants, as the chronicler reports: “And not a single living thing remained in the city: all the same they died and they drank a single cup of death. There was neither moaning nor crying here - neither father and mother about children, neither children about father and mother, nor brother about brother, nor relatives of relatives, but all together lay dead. " Having ravaged the land of Ryazan, the Mongolian army moved further inland. The bulk of the troops, including the clumsy train, (well, the Mongols didn’t build siege weapons under each city or graveyard again!), Moved along the main transport arteries of that time — ice-frozen rivers. Horse units crumbled wide raid, ravaging oncoming settlements. The path to the invaders was blocked by the army of the Grand Prince of Vladimir George (Yuri) Vsevolodovich, headed by his son Vsevolod, and the Allied Novgorodians, under the command of Governor Jeremiah Glebovich.

It was decided to give a general battle on the borders of Vladimir-Suzdal land, near Kolomna, on the ice of the Moscow river. The Vladimir army, with the remnants of the Przion and Ryazan regiments that had joined them, under the command of Prince Roman Ingvarevich, bravely withstood fierce attacks of the Mongolian cavalry, inflicting strong counter-attacks by the best troops of Russia of that time — a heavily-armed cavalry. In the works of modern historians emphasizes the seriousness of the battle of Kolomna. This is evidenced by the fact that one of the Chingizids, Khan Kulkan, was killed there, and this could happen only in the case of a major battle, which was marching with varying success and was accompanied by deep breaks in the battle order of the Mongols (after all, the princes were behind the battle lines ). But here, in the course of a three-day clash, due to the advantages of the Mongolian army in numbers and organization, Khan Batu was able to win. Almost all Russian warriors (including Prince Roman and voivode Jeremiah Glebovich) fell in battle.

Leaving a small detachment for the siege of Kolomna, and sending the expeditionary force to Moscow, the main part of the Mongolian army moved north with the aim of reaching another convenient route to the capital Vladimir - the Klyazma River. It is unlikely that all the available forces, as is commonly believed in academic historiography, Batyu sent to storming the provincial town, which Moscow was in the 13 century. Could the younger son of George, Vladimir, and the voivode Philippe Nyanka, who defended the entire Mongolian army "with a small army", who defended the future capital of Russia, could successfully withstand almost as much as the fortified, crowded Ryazan?

It seemed that nothing was stopping quietly from reaching Vladimir, and without hindrance to besiege the capital of North-Eastern Russia. Suddenly, the Mongol troops, which were sprawling on the march, were subjected to a powerful blow, which was inflicted from whence a army appeared. At the head of the attacking Russian army stood the Ryazan boyar Yevpaty Kolovrat. According to folk lore, Yevpaty L. Kolovrat was born around 1200 of the year, near the village of Frolovo (Shilovsky district, Ryazan region). He had a patrimony in the town of Ursa near the village of Zapolye. During the invasion of Batu, Evpaty Kolovrat with a small detachment of princely warriors was in Chernigov, other sources report that Kolovrat was collecting tribute on the River Pra. Learning the terrible news of the defeat of the Ryazan army and the destruction of the city, the boyar went without delay to Ryazan. Here is what the chronicler says about this: “And one of the nobles of Ryazan, named Evpaty Kolovrat, heard about the invasion of the evil King Batu, and spoke with a little squad, and rushed quickly. And he came to the land of Ryazan, and saw her empty, the cities were ruined, the churches burned, people were killed. And rushed to the city of Ryazan, and saw the city ravaged, the sovereigns of the slain and a great many people who had fallen: some were killed and visited, others were burned, and others were sunk in the river. And Yevpaty cried out in the sorrow of his soul, burning in his heart. And he gathered a small squad - one thousand seven hundred people whom God had saved outside the city. And they followed after the godless tsar, and barely caught up with him in the land of Suzdal, and suddenly attacked the Batyi camps. ”

The unexpected appearance of an unknown troops and the rout of several detachments by the Russians alarmed the Mongolian command. “And the Tatars from the Yevpatyev regiment were barely caught by five soldiers who had suffered from great wounds. And they brought them to the king Batu. The king Batu began to ask them: “What land are you, and why do I do a lot of evil?” They answered: “We are from the regiment Yevpatiy Kolovrat. We sent from Prince Ingvar Ingvarevich of Ryazan you, a strong king, to praise, and to honor with honor, and honor you to pay homage. " A selective detachment of cadets-keshiktenov under the command of brother-in-law Baty Khostovrul was sent against the Russian regiment. The Mongolian commander boasted that he would lead Kolovrat on the lasso and throw the Great Khan at his feet.

15 January 1238, five thousand heavily armed Mongolian soldiers Hostovrula met with the warriors of Kolovrat in open battle. “Hostovrul met with Eupatiy. Evpatiy was a giant by force and cut Hostovrula on-the-floor to the saddle. And the Tatar force began to flog, and many of the famous bogatyrs, Batyov, broke here, cut them in half, and cut them up to the saddle ”. In the transient battle, the Mongolian detachment was almost destroyed, but the Russian army suffered heavy losses, as the tradition says, only 300-400 people remained in the ranks. A handful of Rus were sent fresh troops. However, all the attacks were repelled, the retreating temniki and noyons said with horror that: “We had with many kings, in many lands, in many battles, but we didn’t see such bastards and rezvets, our fathers didn’t tell us: they know death, and so firmly and courageously, riding horses, fight - one with a thousand, and two with ten thousand. None of them will be eaten alive from the slaughter. "


Subeeday Bagatur. Modern monument


Puzzled by such vehement resistance, the Mongols attempted to enter into negotiations, according to legend, the great Subedei Bagatur himself, approached the battle formation of the rotoral rat and asked: “What do you want, warriors?” And heard the answer that led him into confusion: “We came to die! ". The main forces of the Mongolian army advancing to the battlefield, started to fire a handful of defenders with the “heavy artillery” of those years: ballistami and catapults. Only when under a hail of stones and heavy "bolts" almost all Russian soldiers were killed or injured, including their commander, could the invaders celebrate the victory. The story told in “The Tale of the Ruin of Ryazan Batu” ”the shelling of a small detachment with bulky and cumbersome“ vices ”only at first glance looks implausible. Of course, shooting stone-throwing at a small, fast-maneuvering target is ineffective, but if the enemy is standing still or holding an important strategic point, stones and heavy bolt-arrows can cause him sensitive damage. For example, in the battle of Racovor in 1268, the Russian troops successfully shot the troops of the Danish-German knights out of the stone-throwing machines, stuck in deep snow. Thus, in this case, the Ryazan chronicler conveyed quite a reliable fact.

By order of Batu, the body of Evpatiy Kolovrat was brought to him. “And the king Batu said, looking at the body of Evpatievo:“ O Kolovrat Yevpaty! Well, you pitched me with a little of your squad and I beat many bogatyrs of my strong horde and smashed many regiments. If he had served me like this, he would have kept him at his very heart. ” And he gave the body of Evpatiy to the remaining people from his squad who were seized at the massacre. And the king Batu ordered to let them go and not to harm them at all. ”- the chronicler testifies. According to legend, the surviving Russian soldiers took the body of their valiant commander and buried him with honors in the land of Ryazan. It seems the chronicle “About the ruin of Ryazan, Batu”, folk legends, legends and tales quite fully told us about this, of course, a great feat. However, the skeptic will argue, nowhere is neither the exact place of the battle of Evpatiy Kolovrat’s squad nor the place of his last battle, and it is doubtful that such a detachment could successfully withstand the entire powerful Mongolian army.

In Russian literature, cinematography, and partly in official history, there is a perception that the Mongolian army invading Russia was an irregular cavalry armed with bows and curved sabers, dressed in greasy wadded robes and incongruous fur Malachi. In fact, our ancestors had to face the best military machine of the 13 of the century: organized, disciplined, well trained and armed, having division into different types of troops, and having a whole engineering corps Temuter temnik. Indeed, the main shock mass of the Mongolian troops were lightly armed horse archers. But there was another important and significant group - heavy cavalry, kesikty, armed with swords and lances. The interaction between these types of troops was brought to perfection. Fight, as a rule, began horse archers. They attacked the enemy with several open parallel waves, continuously bombarding him with bows; at the same time, the horsemen of the first rows, retired out of order or spent reserves of arrows, were instantly replaced by warriors from the rear ranks. The firing speed was incredible: 6 - 8 arrows per minute without sacrificing accuracy. According to the testimony of medieval chroniclers, the Mongolian arrows in battle really “covered the sun”. If the enemy could not withstand this massive fire and began to retreat, then the light cavalry with sabers itself also completed the rout. If the enemy counterattacked, then the Mongols did not take melee. Favorite tactics were to retreat in order to lure the enemy under an unexpected ambush strike. This blow was dealt by a heavy cavalry and almost always led to success. The heavily armed Mongolian cavalry was similar to the knighthood of Europe or the Russian “forged rati”, but the Mongolian “bagatures” were more mobile in battle and could not only deliver frontal strikes, but also, having rebuilt, quickly go to the flank and rear of the enemy. Both horsemen and horses were protected by armor — first leather, made of specially dressed buff leather, which was coated with varnish for greater strength (this ensured good protective properties — the arrows did not get stuck and glided over the surface). By the beginning of the invasion of Russia, almost all Keshikten warriors had reliable chain mail or metal shells. It was precisely due to the tactics and well-established cooperation between the twenty-thousandth corps of Subedei and Chebe that in 1223 the eighty-thousand Russian-Polovtsian army was defeated; shelves. And suddenly some 1229 warriors successfully oppose almost the entire Mongolian army, inflicting terrible losses on them. In addition, the stubborn, fruitless attacks of batyev warriors against a handful of Russian warriors, which are completed only with the complete destruction of a squad of brave men with the help of long-range missile systems, are surprising.

It is known that a short wide Mongolian bow guaranteed to pierce the most durable armor of warriors of those times from a distance of 60-70 meters. Knowing with whom our ancestors had to face, it is safe to assume that several thousand horse archers could turn a small detachment of "fighting in the field", Ryazan knights, into a sort of porcupine in a couple of tens of minutes, completely pinning them with arrows, but with not happening. The strike of the heavily armed Keshiktenov Khostovrula also ends in the defeat and death of the Mongolian commander. What happened or could have happened on the ancient Vladimir land in January 1238? Why the Mongols could not calm down until they destroyed the insignificant regiment of the Ryazan boyar? The assumption that the success of the soldiers of Evpatiy was in their use of partisan tactics does not deserve attention. In winter, in the forest without a warm shelter you will not last long, and even without roads in deep snow you cannot run fast. In addition, the conventional wisdom that the steppe-Mongols felt uncomfortable in the snows and forests of North-Eastern Russia untenable. Do not forget that the climate in the Mongolian steppes is no less severe, and the dense snow-covered forests at that time were many in northern China, and in the mountains of the Caucasus and on the Volga. And nowhere did the forests prevent the conquerors from steppes and did not protect all those countries and peoples along which an avalanche of Mongol invasion swept along an iron rink.

One of the alleged versions is a very strong position taken by Kolovrat on the way of the main part of the Mongolian army. Such could be a fortified churchyard on the border of the Ryazan and Vladimir principalities. At that time, places for collecting tribute, customs payments (myta), parking for merchants, etc., were called graveyards in Russia at that time, in certain areas simultaneously performing the functions of a frontier post. There were dozens of similar fortified towns in the Russian principalities of the 13 century, however, only one located on the trade route - the old Kolomna road - would fit the place of the last battle of the Ryazan knights. In order to avoid the invasion and ruin of the neighborhood of the new horde with metal detectors, I will not name the exact coordinates of this place, but I would like to note that this road was marked on a copy of the old drawing map given in the book of Vladimir local lore expert S.I. Rodionov.

The ancient Kolomna road, accessible for movement only in winter, went out almost to the very walls of this fortress, which rose on the bank of the river. Our ancestors chose a place for building fortifications to be perfect. The height above the neighborhood from which the terrain is visible for tens of kilometers, the possibility of blocking movement along the Klyazma and the Kolomna winter road. On both sides, the hillfort was reliably protected by a steep cliff, which descended to the very edge of the waters. From all four sides, the defensive wall is still preserved, of course, not as powerful as in Dmitrov or Vladimir, but still quite impressive. On the left and right of the former gates there are extensive flat areas of the terrain, which have very interesting names: Killed field and Batuyevo field. Having passed the shortest way along the winter road and occupied this strategically important fortification, the Kolovrat detachment could greatly complicate the lives of the invaders. It is likely that opposite the fortress on the ice of the river there were heaps of tree trunks and snow, which were poured with water and covered with ice in the frost. Similar structures were often used by Russian troops as field fortifications. Placed on the fortress wall from the “river” side, warriors armed with bows and crossbows could shoot with impunity anyone who tried to destroy or cross an obstacle. Thus, the most convenient way to one of the main objectives of the Batu troops campaign - the city of Vladimir was blocked. Of course, the Mongols, hiding from a handful of madmen entrenched in the fortress, could block the road with forests and bypass the unruly fortifications, but they clearly did not intend to leave in the rear of the squad of desperate men. In addition, the arrangement of the road took away the most important resource from the soldiers of Batu, time. In the Khan's headquarters, it was well known about the new ratification of the Grand Duke Yuri, hastily gathered in the northern regions of the principality.

Almost everywhere, the population and the garrisons of such towns preferred to either leave the fortifications and sit out in the forests, or retreat to a large and better protected city. When resisting the Mongols did not spend much time storming such sites. Ruthlessly sweeping away everything that appeared on the walls with arrows, the Mongols in the first rows sent the so-called “hashar” to the assault, consisting of prisoners, guilty or auxiliary detachments with fascines for falling asleep and assault ladders. When the moat was littered, the stairs were installed, well-armed and armored infantrymen entered into action. The statement that the Mongols did not know how to fight on foot, raises a logical question: how did they manage to fight in the narrow streets of Chinese, Khorezm, Iranian and other cities on horseback? There could not have been a big army in the graveyards and frontier posts, so after a few hours it all ended with a complete victory for the Mongols. But near this small fortress, the conquerors stumbled: neither the incomparable accuracy of the archers, nor the unrestrained courage and strong armor of the keshiktenov helped them.

Perhaps it was the presence of a well-fortified point of the Kolovrat regiment that led to the use of throwing machines: the Mongols knew how to shoot the wooden walls perfectly. However, the "artillery" was brought into battle at the final stage of the battle, before the invincible before the Mongols were beaten several times in open battle, and the army, many times inferior to them in numbers.



And here another version of the unexpectedly successful confrontation of the Mongol horde of a small division of Rusich arises - the presence of Evpatius Kolovrat of some powerful, uncharacteristic for the 13 century weapons. At first glance, this assumption looks like sheer fantasy, but ...! The folklore sources of Russia provide rich material on unusual weapons that serve as a constant helper to the hero in the battle with evil forces. The possession of Russian knights and warriors with unusual weapons is repeatedly mentioned in fairy tales, epics, chronicles, and even the lives of saints. It should be noted that, despite the existence of other symbols of military prowess in the system of ancient Russian literature and East Slavic folklore (spears and sabers are no less often mentioned in this context), the trace of clearly preserved ideas about supernatural properties lasts most often for the sword.

The defenders of the Murom-Ryazan land could well have been one of such artifacts, the reality of the existence of which is now not questioned even by the official historical science — Agrikov's sword. The origin of Agrikov’s sword is lost in the depths of the centuries; according to some sources, it was forged by Agrik, a descendant of the Jewish king Herod the Great, according to others, the authors of the product were masters of the ancient Dominian population of the Klyazma-Oka interfluve. The description of this weapon has come down to us: a straight double-edged sword, the blade of which emitted a faint bluish glow, visible in the dark.

The owners of Agrikov’s sword in Russia at different times turned out to be semi-mythical heroes of folk legends like Svyatogor-Bogatyr and Bury-Bogatyr – cow son, and very real personalities, such as Peter of Murom, his countryman known to all the bogatyr Illya-Muromets, warlord Vladimir Monomakh Again, a native of the Ryazan land, Dobrynya Nikitich. Most often in ancient Russian legends, a wonderful sword is used in the fight against the serpent, then the personification of evil. Anyone could turn out to be a serpent: a mythical dragon, priests of the ancient pagan faith, a marching column of the eternal enemies of Russia - nomads, from afar in motion resembled a huge serpent.

For example, according to the legend, the hero of the epic, Dobrynya Nikitich, was able to defeat the Serpent Tugarin only with the help of a conspirator sword. It happened 19 July 1096, near Pereyaslavl, where the united squads of the Russian principalities seriously defeated the strong Polovtsian army, and its leader Khan Tugorkan (Tugarin Zmievich) was killed.
Another equally well-known fact of possessing rare weapons is presented in the “Tale of the Lives of Saints Peter and Fevronia of Murom”. According to the legends, a serpent began to come to the wife of Prince Pavel of that time, Murom, under the guise of his lawful spouse, to bend her into fornication. And the serpents master over her. ” However, the wife whom the Serpent took by force told her husband everything and found out that the death of the Serpent was ordained "from Petrov's shoulder, from Agrikova the sword." Peter was found quickly, it was the sixteen-year-old brother of the ruling prince. Of course, Peter immediately decided to help a relative, but he did not know what kind of a sword Agrikov was and where he could be taken. Once, as the legend goes, Peter came to the Exaltation of the Church, in which a certain young man appeared to him and indicated the place where the sword lies. When the moment of battle came, the Serpent lost its false appearance from the blow of a magic blade, took its real form, "and began to tremble and be dead." In the "Life" says nothing about the fighting skills of Peter. Without any effort on the part of Peter, the sword ends up with him, and the Serpent himself, in fact, with one stroke.


Peter and Fevronia


Do not forget that the positions of Christianity in northeastern Russia in the 12 century were very shaky, so most likely this here by the Serpent meant the priests of the old, pagan faith, trying to introduce "into fornication", that is, to return to paganism, the ruling Murom house, but were once defeated by their weapons. However, possession of Agric's sword did not bring happiness to the prince of Murom. Peter was seriously ill, his entire body was covered with sores and scabs, and he reached such a state that he could not move on his own. The further events in the lives are described as follows: “One of the young men sent in search of a doctor, accidentally entered the house, where he found at work a lonely girl named Fevronia, who had the gift of insight and healing. After all the inquiries, Fevronia punished the servant: “Bring your prince here. If he is sincere and humble in his words, he will be healthy! ”The prince, who himself could not walk, was brought to the house, and he sent to ask who wants to cure him. And promised to, if cured, - a great reward. “I want to cure him,” Fevronia answered bluntly, “but I do not demand any rewards from him. Here is my word to him: if I do not become his wife, it is not fitting for me to treat him. ”

Further well-known: after some difficulties, Peter and Fevronia became husband and wife. The memorial day of the faithful, celebrated on July 8, has become a holiday in modern Russia - the Day of family, love and loyalty. The fate of Agrikov's sword in the Tale does not say anything, but Peter was unlikely to be able to part with the miracle — the weapon. He had no sons, so he could pass on the artifact of his daughter, who married the ruler of the present city of Yuryev-Polsky. The prince could also simply hide the weapon or, more likely, deposit for the heirs of the principality's pagan past — the Magi, the legitimate owners of the sword. Do not forget that Fevronia, who possessed abilities inaccessible to the common man, could very well come from their midst and push her spouse to such an action.

In these difficult times, the Magi gave Agrikov a sword to someone who was worthy of owning and voluntarily sacrificing his life to protect his native land. And there was no better candidate for the feat than Yevpaty, the son of Leo, the Ryazan boyar, nicknamed Kolovrat.

“And they began to whip without mercy, and all the regiments of the Tatar were mixed up. And the Tatars became like drunk or insane. Yevpaty, passing through the strong Tatar regiments, beat them mercilessly. It seemed to the Tatars that the dead rebelled ... ". They did not help the invaders who came into contact with the power of Agrikov’s sword and became “drunk or insane”, neither the maneuverability of their light cavalry, nor the monstrous accuracy and rate of fire of their bows, nor the attack power of selected Khan Bagaturs. Only by throwing a handful of heroes with heavy stones from a safe distance, were the enemies able to defeat the Kolovrata regiment. Apparently the persistence with which the Mongols tried to exterminate a small Russian detachment can be explained by the desire of Batu to get an ancient artifact. The further fate of Agrikov's sword is unknown. I hope that in the future, historians and local historians will find traces of a unique blade, because such weapons will never disappear forever.

Nowadays, many express doubt: “Was there really such a person, Evpaty Lvovich Kolovrat?” In my opinion, only people can ask such questions, for whom patriotism is just an empty sound, since the courage and love for the Motherland has long been immortalized in Ryazan a hero. In addition, the name of Evpatiy Kolovrat is reflected not only in epics and oral traditions, but also in the annals. Doubts about the heroic epic and the names associated with it are doubts about the history itself, not the book history, but the true, written blood and courage of the Russian people.
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  1. Korsar4
    Korsar4 10 January 2016 07: 22 New
    16
    Since childhood, Vronsky's “Evil City” is one of his favorite books.

    "Evpatiy met with a khan at the Kamenka river
    And he began to cut the Tatar regiments without mercy. "

    But no matter how many questions I ask, the answers where this Kamenka never received.

    Yes and not so important. Ancient history cannot but merge with legends. But it is important for all generations.
    1. Sweles
      Sweles 10 January 2016 09: 20 New
      +9
      since they have not talked about TMI for a long time, they probably missed it. A series of articles about TMI took place on the sedition site, the author did a good and thorough analysis of this phenomenon of Russian history ...

      Actually, what traces the Mongols left behind themselves:
      - Written sources - 0 (zero), which is not surprising, since the Mongols received their writing only in the XNUMXth century (before that various alphabets of more cultural peoples adapted). However, in the Russian chronicles (even if they are littered with very late fakes), no Mongols were mentioned even once.

      - Architectural monuments - 0 (zero).

      - Linguistic borrowings - 0 (zero): just as there is not a single Mongolian word in Russian, there were no borrowings from Russian in Mongolian until the XNUMXth century.

      - Cultural and legal borrowing - 0 (zero): neither in our life there is anything from the Trans-Baikal nomads, nor the nomads borrowed anything from the much more cultured peoples supposedly conquered by them until the last century.

      - The economic consequences of conquering the world - 0 (zero): two-thirds of Eurasia were robbed by nomads, should they have brought at least something home? Let not libraries, but at least a piece of gold torn from the temples allegedly destroyed by them ... But there’s nothing at all.

      - Numismatic traces - 0 (zero): the world does not know any Mongolian coins.

      - In weapons business - 0 (zero).

      - In the folklore of the Mongols there are no, even phantom memories of their “great” past, which was noted by all Europeans who had contact with the natives, starting from the XNUMXth century, when a wave of Russian colonization reached Transbaikalia.

      - Population genetics does not find the slightest trace of the Transbaikal nomads being in the vast expanses of Eurasia that they conquered.

      http://www.kramola.info/vesti/letopisi-proshlogo/kak-istoriki-sochinjali-mongols


      kuju-imperiju

      why did so many critical articles begin to cast doubt on our history? Likely because we really live in the era of information technology and much has become seen at a distance. The arguments of the academic brotherhood scholar have become somehow insolvent, for example, I was one of them in one of the forums, as I said that there are no written sources belonging to the Mongols numbers ", but they are all stored in Western archives and, accordingly, access there only by passes and only by their own, i.e. AMAZING NEARBY, BUT IT IS FORBIDDEN, therefore the academics are confident in their own, and the people in their own way and the way these roads do not intersect ...
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 10 January 2016 11: 43 New
        0
        Sweles. "The arguments of a scholarly academic fraternity became, as it were, not wealthy, for example, I was one of them on one of the forums, as I said that the written sources belonging to the Mongols" have no numbers ", but they are all stored in Western archives and, accordingly, access there only by passes and only by their own, that is, AN AMAZING NEARBY, BUT IT IS FORBIDDEN, therefore the academics are sure of their own, and the people in their own way and these roads do not intersect .. "
        Yes, yes, therefore, let's duplicate nonsense and stupidity.))) Academics then on any other id.ur.ki and idiots, but you are smart and know everything.))) But the question is for followers of non-traditional orientation))) in history - Verkhoturye was part of the ancient Elven state entity of Tartaria?)))
        1. Sweles
          Sweles 10 January 2016 12: 04 New
          +1
          Quote: Nagaibak
          Yes, yes, therefore, let's duplicate nonsense and stupidity.))) Academics then on any other id.ur.ki and idiots, but you are smart and know everything.))) But the question is for followers of non-traditional orientation))) in history - Verkhoturye was part of the ancient Elven state entity of Tartaria?)))


          you can completely duplicate at least nonsense, at least stupidity, which TI actually did all her life, but it has nothing to do with true science ...
        2. Sweles
          Sweles 10 January 2016 12: 39 New
          +1
          Quote: Nagaibak
          But the question is for followers of non-traditional orientation))) in history- Verkhoturye was part of the ancient Elven state entity of Tartaria?)))


          The answer to the supporters of one-sided-same-sex orientation is that to whom the American mass-empty Hollywood culture about gnomes, elves, Tatar-Mongol igots and the German historical paradigm is more expensive than natural science, impartial artifacts, logic of reasoning, a scientific approach to historical problems and native Russian history should know what lies it’s not eternal that your time passes and more and more people understand that something can be seen even from the history of fuel, people either react vividly to true informative publications, or weakly to invented, even with opposition from the administration. As a matter of fact, for example, the American lunar scam is constantly unable to lie.
          As for Tartaria, what can you do if the cards with the name TARTARIA HUNDREDS? There are many other publications and facts that are discovered by true ascetics of history, such as, for example, Andreas Churilov who discovered that the "ancient" Pompeii fell asleep not in antiquity, but in 1631, so leave your gomes and elves with you ...
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 10 January 2016 16: 25 New
            +3
            Sweles "As for Tartaria, what can you do if the cards with the name TARTARIA HUNDREDS?"
            A lot of beech.))) And blah, blah, blah ..))) But they didn’t answer the question.))) Well, argue with you.))) You are really lovers of elven history, can you enlighten me about the assault of Constantinople by Russian troops in 1600th year?)))) Thirst for details.)))
            A lot of your brother has visited the site here. Yes, apparently they have matured, got married, and wiser)))) there was no time to carry nonsense ..))) Do not see them for something. And you freshman with enthusiasm.))) Let's bomb))) expose.)))
    2. shasherin.pavel
      shasherin.pavel 10 January 2016 09: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Korsar4
      where is this heater

      In antiquity, 80% of the rivers flowing into the lake had the root name of the lake, or the name of the people living in this place. We can assume that this is a tributary of the Kama and search on the old maps of Russia, and there you can find a lot of interesting things.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 10 January 2016 10: 46 New
        +4
        No. Clearly far from Kama. Suzdal has a Kamenka, but how many such and such Kamenka. Then there were much more small rivers.
        1. Nagaibak
          Nagaibak 10 January 2016 11: 38 New
          +1
          Korsar4 "Then there were much more small rivers."
          Oh ... a sound voice. I hope you are not from the sect fomenki.)))
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 10 January 2016 11: 55 New
            +1
            Do not read. And I don’t even want to.
      2. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 10 January 2016 11: 37 New
        0
        shasherin.pavel "We can assume that this is a tributary of the Kama and search on the old maps of Russia, and there you can find a lot of interesting things."
        Where is Kama and where is Ryazan and Vladimir?))) Although it does not matter for gay orientation.)))
        And about the pictures I agree ... beautiful and interesting to consider.)))
        1. Diana Ilyina
          Diana Ilyina 10 January 2016 17: 54 New
          14
          The article started so well and ended so sadly! The author began for health, and finished for peace! What does the sword-taker have to do with it ?! I fully admit that our ancestors owned the secret of forging weapons like the secret of Damascus steel! But even if you have a Jedi sword and a coward’s soul, you won’t defeat one enemy alone! In my opinion, in our entire history, everything has always been decided by our notorious "RUSSIAN SPIRIT", our love for the Motherland and the ability to sacrifice! Without this, any miracle weapon is powerless! Remember Suvorov’s miraculous heroes, did they all have swords-kladentsy ?! But they always beat the enemy in the minority, and sometimes with a huge margin of strength not in their favor! Military skill, the talent of a commander, the faith of soldiers in their commander and the same Russian spirit, this is the guarantee of our victories!
          1. Pomeranian
            11 January 2016 00: 40 New
            -2
            Quote: Diana Ilyina
            What does the sword-hoarder have to do with it ?!

            This is like a version. I can find no other explanation for the successful actions of the small detachment against the huge army. Yes, and no matter how strong the spirit is, as the people say "force breaks the straw" ..
    3. GLUHOI
      GLUHOI 20 October 2016 21: 34 New
      +1
      Vladimir region, the city of Suzdal, the river Kamenka! wink laughing laughing laughing Always been there!
  2. yuriy55
    yuriy55 10 January 2016 07: 45 New
    11
    It is also encouraging that, through the efforts of good people, they began to attract people to study the historical heritage from childhood ...
  3. Fox
    Fox 10 January 2016 08: 45 New
    +3
    Yevpatiy or his prototype was ... but the yoke ... there’s nothing to comment on. The same as the sword of the "king of the Jews". Well and the date to the heap.
    if my minus.
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 11: 17 New
      0
      Quote: Fox
      if my minus.

      "The downside of being afraid on TV is not to go around." Another slightly annoying - stupid minus without substantiation.
  4. Give the light
    Give the light 10 January 2016 09: 06 New
    0
    Firstly, when the Mongols did not leave (and were not the imperial people) their steppes. There were Turkic-speaking tribes.
    Secondly, where does such detailed information about those events come from? Annals were written not a month or a year later, at best, decades later, ordinary folklore surrenders.
    Thirdly, why did the indigenous Turkic peoples (a super ethnos not inferior to the Slavic) have a negative role?
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 11: 18 New
      0
      Quote: Give the light
      Thirdly, why did the indigenous Turkic peoples (a super ethnos not inferior to the Slavic) have a negative role?

      In fact, they burned Kiev, and not the Russian Karakoram ..
      1. Give the light
        Give the light 11 January 2016 13: 01 New
        +1
        In fact, they gave impetus to the unification of the Slavs into the Russian people.
        Actually, the West was afraid of them and not us.
        Actually, thanks to them, Russia has such vast territories.
        In fact, every third (if not the second) has their genome.
  5. parusnik
    parusnik 10 January 2016 09: 15 New
    +8
    An article from the “folk history” cycle .. Without an assessment. The only film in the 4th grade was watched about the feat of the group of Evpatiy Kolovrat ... And in the Reading Book on History for 4 classes .. there was a story, but more interesting .. It's It was 1978 ..
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 00: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: parusnik
      An article from the folk history series ..

      And I did not claim to be scientific. I just found a place where the battle was.
  6. swertalf
    swertalf 10 January 2016 09: 30 New
    +6
    I especially did not like the explicit blackmail of the author at the end of the article. Ah, you doubt that the hero of the national epos really existed - that means, my friend, you are not a patriot and very possibly an enemy of the people. What am I? I believe in all this. It was written, it means it was. About the Jedi sword is generally awesome.
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 00: 43 New
      0
      Quote: swertalf
      About the Jedi sword is generally awesome.

      Why? You think that, for example, the guys from Ananerbe looked in vain for this artifact. True, they were not looking there, but it doesn’t matter. It is important that Agrikov’s sword is considered by many very knowledgeable people and statesmen to be a very real thing, and not a “Jedi one”.
  7. mervino2007
    mervino2007 10 January 2016 09: 42 New
    +1
    An interesting assumption is Agric's sword. Our ancestors believed in miracles, but we did not. It is difficult to give a different assessment of the resistance that Ryazan showed to the enemy. How to confront a numerically superior army? We know that our ancestors were able to use surprise, folds of terrain, notches. But many legends mention the Sword-Treasurer, possessing magical powers. And if?
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 00: 59 New
      0
      Thank you for the most thoughtful informative answer.
  8. jgthfnjh
    jgthfnjh 10 January 2016 09: 54 New
    +3
    Half of the article is a repetition of all articles on this topic (not interesting at all), the other half (about the agric sword) is generally sucked out of the finger. By the same analogy, it can be assumed that Evpatius possessed the Jedi lightsaber. Minus definitely.
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 01: 01 New
      -2
      Quote: jgthfnjh
      By the same analogy, it can be assumed that Evpatius possessed the Jedi lightsaber.

      Suppose who is interfering with something? And if Snake-Tugarin is a real person, like Dobrynya Nikitich (by the way he died in 35 years), then why is Agrikov's sword a fiction? By the way, you would not be hired for this in Ananerbe. laughing
  9. igorra
    igorra 10 January 2016 10: 16 New
    11
    The author began for health, finished for peace. Reached an incredible weapon, the first thought - guns, muskets, read to a magic sword - really ohren.el. So soon Russian folk tales will be introduced into history books. Maybe it's better to fly separately, soup separately.
    1. Darkness
      Darkness 10 January 2016 11: 55 New
      +2
      Well, shooting Kolovrat with catapults (vices) (essentially siege weapons) is also nonsense.
      1. Pomeranian
        11 January 2016 00: 44 New
        0
        Quote: Darkness
        Well, shooting Kolovrat with catapults (vices) (essentially siege weapons) is also nonsense.

        Why?
        1. lysyj bob
          lysyj bob 11 January 2016 11: 08 New
          +3
          The range of throwing stones is small, the flight speed is also, the sights are primitive, the rate of fire is at best 1 shot in a few minutes. What density of fire must be created for effective destruction of infantry in an open field? How many of these machines need to be rolled out and deployed for firing? And given the low maneuverability of this "artillery"? Are you sure that professional warriors will stand and watch how, at 300-400 meters from them, the enemy organizes a many-hour show with the deployment of bulky guns, and then still watch the flight of stones in their formation? Simple maneuvering along the front will reduce the firing efficiency to nothing, and a counterattack will make firing impossible in principle. If the soldiers came with the determination to die in battle, then they probably would have tried to sell their lives at a higher price, rather than letting the enemy practice shooting at a fixed target.
          1. Pomeranian
            11 January 2016 11: 13 New
            0
            Search the Internet for the Battle of Rakovor. I believe there you will receive an exhaustive answer to all your doubts.
            Quote: lysyj bob
            If the soldiers came with the determination to die in battle, then they probably would have tried to sell their lives at a higher price, rather than letting the enemy practice shooting at a fixed target.

            I pointed out in the article that they could defend some important point or something important that could be safely hit from a range greater than a bow shot.
          2. Pomeranian
            11 January 2016 11: 27 New
            -3
            Quote: lysyj bob
            How many of these machines need to be rolled out and deployed for firing? And given the low maneuverability of this "artillery"?

            Read the history of Rome. There all sorts of "scorpions" and "onagra" were used everywhere and quite successfully. Could the Chinese engineers of Tamutair build something like that? Yes Easy.
    2. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 01: 02 New
      -1
      Quote: igorra
      Maybe it's better to fly separately, soup separately.

      Well, about Tugarin the Snake, I wrote in the article. This is not a fairy tale. Why do you think that this cannot be the case with other events?
  10. Victor1
    Victor1 10 January 2016 10: 22 New
    +2
    I’ll leave here a link to a clip about Kolovrat.

    PS: I don’t believe in TMI.
  11. shasherin.pavel
    shasherin.pavel 10 January 2016 10: 23 New
    +2
    Only in one chronicle was the phrase that the “red girls” were part of the tribute, and most likely this translation was incorrect. Nowhere else has this happened. Pride embraced the Russian princes, Monomakh bequeathed the city according to the seniority of his sons, the oldest Kiev, a medium-sized city, and the youngest settlement on the border. But pride boiled, they began to conquer the throne of the Grand Duke by force. Alexander Nevsky understood the threat of the invasion and accepted tribute from the steppes to Novgorod, and this tribute did not burden the state of Novgorod. The Pskov steppes helped him to free him from knight dogs.
  12. Predator
    Predator 10 January 2016 11: 08 New
    +5
    I didn’t like to say what, and I suggest reading Chivilikhin, where he tries to tell about the invasion more or less logically. Well, everyone recognizes (who thinks) that the Mongolian army was 200-300 thousand and there was no mention at all, in reality the number is not considered more than 40 thousand horsemen. For that time, the army was just huge. The large cities of Russia could have a population of 5-7 thousand people, i.e. mobilization opportunities for protection no more than 2-3 thousand people. Because the troops and more than 40 including there is no need (and the Mongols had good intelligence) .And when the Mongol army broke the resistance of the main forces and parted ways to rob 1500-1700 professional soldiers, this is a force to be reckoned with, and having taken a fortified place, and even having prepared it in advance you can also stay away from a numerically superior opponent (Ferompily, Kozelsk, for example). And the "magic" weapon was also present - crossbows (range of 100-150 steps) and good armor, and most importantly the training of warriors. That's no fiction.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 10 January 2016 11: 20 New
      +2
      For me, there is no answer about the exact number of Batyev’s troops. The range can be from 40 to 120 thousand. They managed to reach the Hungarians. Given that each warrior had 3 horses, it was not easy to feed such a horde.
      1. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 10 January 2016 11: 32 New
        +2
        = Korsar4 "They managed to get to the Hungarians."
        This is from the second call. The first to Northeast Russia. Second to Southwest and Europe. In fact, there were two trips. With a short break to relax.)))
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 10 January 2016 12: 01 New
          +1
          Yes. But how did the composition of the troops change? We are still based on assumptions, with fluctuations in one direction or another.

          I caught myself thinking that the history of the country in detail I can only imagine starting with Alexei Mikhailovich. And before that, reality interwoven
          with legends, depending on how talented the book first turned up on the arm.
        2. Pomeranian
          11 January 2016 01: 06 New
          -4
          Good day. Have you noticed how people rushed to count horses? I am curious why it does not occur to anyone that in the Mongolian (if you can call it that) infantry was no less, if not more? Have you read Vasily Yan? How did they take cities without infantry?
          1. Chiropractor
            Chiropractor 12 January 2016 16: 27 New
            +2
            Quote: Pomoryanin
            there was no less infantry, if not more?


            and the infantry queen of the rivers (did they advance along the rivers?) along the snowdrifts half a meter from Stone (the Ural Mountains) to the Repeysk / Rhodope mountains (Karapat, in short) took the cities along the way - and they survived ... smile


            Did you really walk in the snow?
            By the way, what kind of shoes does the Mongol infantry have? Felt boots? High boots?
            Here, put on boots, put on felt clothes / skins (you are a nomad, albeit an infantry one), gird yourself, hang a saber in a scabbard, hold a spear in your hands, hold a shield behind your back, and a bale of food for a month behind your back (not every week a city by storm to take to eat) - here you get the "astronaut" with an oar. Your speed will be about a kilometer per hour, and after 4 hours of fermentation on the virgin snow, Silushka Bogatyrskaya will dry up in you, you will have to arrange a halt with lunch, a smoke break for an hour and another 4 hours of snowmaking. Next - expand the yurts (yes! You’ll also drag the yurt to your ten) and bainkat. 8 km a day in the virgin lands is a great speed! From Ryazan to Kolomna, you will just reach 20 days in a row — 150 km along the riverbed.

            There is an option for delivering infantry in a sleigh, but sleighs also have horses, and the presence of toboggan troops is somehow not covered by reporters of that time. About ski troops, by the way, also not to hear ..

            I repeat the thought - in our winter, the infantry did not fight in the winter. Until the 19th century the infantry retreated to the "winter apartments" (in 1812 the Europeans tried, but it turned out that they ran away far from the apartment). This is a day in Europe marching - and now you have a neighboring state, take it, capture it.
            Our winter forest is impassable, in principle - there are no roads, no clearings, no compass either. Just at least drive the bear out of the den and hibernate. Movement - only along riverbeds. And only horseback. Riding roads formed closer to 18 events. And then in the spring and autumn instead of them there was dirt "on the horse’s belly."
            1. Pomeranian
              12 January 2016 16: 57 New
              -1
              Quote: Kostoprav
              Did you really walk in the snow?

              Of course not. In our Arctic, palm trees grow and summer is year-round. Yesterday, even the sun first appeared in a month .. And what did you think?
              But seriously, nothing prevents the infantryman from going where he needs to:
              1. The beds of frozen rivers are the main routes on the Central Russian Plain. You can go anywhere along the rivers.
              2. No one forced to drag everything on themselves, for this there is a convoy, or at least a horse, on which you can hang belongings from several people. Does the presence of a convoy somehow contradict the presence of a special engineering corps in the Mongolian army?
              Quote: Kostoprav
              (not every week a city by storm to take to eat)

              3. What villages, small villages, graveyards in Russia was not? Only large cities? And there was no game in the forest, and fish in the rivers? And there wasn’t the same train too?
              Quote: Kostoprav
              moreover, through 4 of fermentation on the virgin snow, the silushka bogatyrskaya will run out of you

              4. Do not run out. We walked around the taiga when there were no money on the snowmobile. Snowshoes are needed or skiing. Snowshoes can be made of spruce branches on the knee. To pass or carry something heavy, several people climb the trail, the rest pull sleds at breaks. There is also a yurt. Passed a day and on 30 km. In addition, I repeat, we did not go through the desert, but using riverbeds and roads. Following your logic, the cavalry should be stuck in the snow, and the horse will partially die of hunger, partially tear.
              5. Overnight in the snow - from the same experience. All are still alive and well.
              6. I don’t know about shoes, but given the sharply continental climate of Central Asia, I believe that it’s not in sandals.

              7. About a lot of things not to hear,
              Quote: Kostoprav
              and the presence of luge troops is somehow not covered by reporters of that time. About ski troops, by the way, also not to hear ..
              Are you ready to put your head on the chopping block, claiming that the Mongols did not know skis?
              8.
              Quote: Kostoprav
              Our winter forest is impassable, in principle - there are no roads, no clearings, no compass either. Just at least drive the bear out of the den and hibernate. Movement - only along riverbeds. And only horseback. Riding roads formed closer to 18 events. And then in the spring and autumn instead of them there was dirt "on the horse’s belly."

              You yourself write that the movement was carried out along riverbeds. Neither dirt, nor swamps, nor vile interfered in any way.
              9. My favorite
              Quote: Kostoprav
              I repeat the thought - in our winter, the infantry did not fight in the winter.

              Consequently, Alexander Yaroslavich defeated the Germans on Lake Peipsi in the summer ?? And the fact that, for example, in the Lavrentievsky chronicles they write that a certain prince went on a campaign on SUMMER of such and such a year, and defeated the army admirably on 24 on March ... then Russia is a country eternal summer
              And, of course, the infantry did not participate in the war. repeat
      2. Darkness
        Darkness 10 January 2016 11: 49 New
        0
        About 30 thousand. And then, this is the maximum bar.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Severomor
          Severomor 10 January 2016 18: 48 New
          +3
          Quote: Darkness
          About 30 thousand. And then, this is the maximum bar.


          As always, I plus you, but it’s painfully optimistic, as fantastic as possible, let’s say that it’s 90 thousand horses.

          Of course, I understand that according to V. Jan, 300 thousand troops can be pulled together, paper will endure, but common sense ..... I doubt it

          Tebenevka from the Kyrgyz word teben (winter pasture); came into use wherever cattle is grazed on pasture all year round.
          Cattle "yearns" all year round, in summer in special summer pastures, and in winter in winter areas left untouched in the summer; here he gathers grass, raking snow.
          Only recently, nomads began to set up small cattle camps in the form of protection against snowstorms - but these rooms are low, cramped, completely dark, and during the thaw the stalls turn into a continuous swamp. Nomads do very little hay supplies for the winter, targeting them mainly for cattle unable to shade in deep snow - for cattle and for camels; hay is given to sheep, goats, horses only in exceptional cases - during a strong snowstorm or sleet. Winter shade-grazing pastures are located near wintering grounds arranged near rivers rich in vegetation of ravines and flood meadows. No matter how rich the shade-grazing pastures are, the slightest adverse atmospheric phenomenon is detrimental to the nomad's economy.

          Yeah, along riverbeds, in winter, in December, 50 cm of snow cover, 90 thousand horses.

          Although the Chinese made a super bulldozer, they are specialists.
          Stone throwers in the Vladimir-Suzdal forests - this is easy, but they carried stones with them in the train .... all the same)))))))

          Or they were digging in the winter forest, there the soil is sandy and there should be a lot of stones
          1. Pomeranian
            11 January 2016 01: 10 New
            +1
            Quote: Severomor
            Stone throwers in the Vladimir-Suzdal forests - this is easy, but they carried stones with them in the train .... all the same)))))))

            Why stones? A piece of frozen earth, and even neatly watered with water - no worse than a stone. Which wooden chopper can also be thrown. What is there on the wooden graveyards to smash something? Well, when storming cities, a suitable stone could always be found. In addition, with a hundred stone stoves of one hundred kg, you can take with you on a sleigh.
            1. Chiropractor
              Chiropractor 12 January 2016 16: 56 New
              +1
              Quote: Pomoryanin
              A piece of frozen ground

              what will you pick out and lift a piece of land from?

              Quote: Pomoryanin
              Wooden chopping block, which can also be thrown

              the chopping block flies badly - the aerodynamics are not the same, the density of the material is also - throw a wooden cube into the wooden fence with a canopy - only get a clear “tum”

              Quote: Pomoryanin
              when storming cities, a stone suitable always could be found

              This is if you live, let's say, in the Czech Republic, where there are rocks and adits, and a fertile layer on 40 see. But in the Murom swamps you will not find stones during the day with fire in the winter. Yes, even under the snow ...

              Quote: Pomoryanin
              One hundred kgs of one hundred kg can be taken with you on a sleigh.

              It’s a great pleasure to pour 10 tons of stone from Karakoram! It is better to take so much food.
              Yes, and you will shake over every pebble - that’s left under the enemy wall / the last one will crumble / get lost, and that's all - turn off the great campaign, there’s nothing more to take of the city.
              And as an anti-personnel munition, this hundred Kamenyuki in general is about nothing.

              Here's a counter version for you: vices are copper guns, they have 5 silicon cores - when fired, a piezo effect is formed, due to which it kills everyone within 100 meters of the earth / wall with static electricity, and wooden elements also ignite ! smile
              1. Pomeranian
                12 January 2016 17: 25 New
                +1
                Quote: Kostoprav
                what will you pick out and lift a piece of land from?

                As far as I know, soil on the Central Russian plain freezes in January centimeters on 50-70. He broke it with crowbars, found clay, formed a "star of David", for example, poured water neatly and if you please ..
                Quote: Kostoprav
                the chopping block flies badly - the aerodynamics are not the same, the density of the material is also - throw a wooden cube into the wooden fence with a canopy - only get a clear “tum”

                A pointed log from a catapult. I doubt that the "tum", rather "grunting."
                Quote: Kostoprav
                This is if you live, let's say, in the Czech Republic, where there are rocks and adits, and a fertile layer on 40 see. But in the Murom swamps you will not find stones during the day with fire in the winter. Yes, even under the snow ...

                And what does Vladimir stand in Murom swamps ?? I always admired the view from a high mountain. From the Assumption Cathedral .. But is it really made of wood !!?

                Quote: Kostoprav
                It’s a great pleasure to pour tons of stone from Karakoram 10 tons of stone!

                Uh To carry stones from Karakoram? I won’t even comment.
                But to lift them along the Volga, and then go along the Oka, Klyazma and other rivers - is easy.
                Quote: Kostoprav
                Yes, and you will shake over every pebble - that’s left under the enemy wall / the last one will crumble / get lost, and that's all - turn off the great campaign, there’s nothing more to take of the city.

                The gate was enough to knock out or break through the wall. And in the city you can make out a little church on pebbles .. Or by burning the core. From clay.
                Quote: Kostoprav
                And as an anti-personnel munition, this hundred Kamenyuki in general is about nothing.

                To do this, there are heavy ballistic bolts, barrels filled with the same stones or frozen clay, and a lot of things. Why do you think the Mongols are dumber than us?
                Your banter is appreciated. But I know the place of the last battle of Kolovrat, but you do not ...
    2. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 10 January 2016 12: 39 New
      +4
      Quote: Predator
      I didn’t like what to say. So I suggest reading Chivilikhin, where he is trying to tell about the invasion more or less logically. Well, everyone recognizes (who thinks) that there are no 200-300 thousand Mongol troops, really, the number is not considered more than 40 thousand riders.

      Logically ...
      But even more logic in L.N. Gumilyov.
      According to Gumilyov, there were even fewer Mongols.
      Cities took an army of 3 to 4 thousand.
      But they gathered from the locals many who wanted to rob the city ...
      Given that the Slavs were mainly artisans and warriors, and the surrounding peasants were other ethnic groups more ancient for these places, there were enough people who wanted to rob the "robbers".

      And then in the Russian chronicles they wrote that ... the Mongols drove or covered themselves with local (Russian) residents ...

      Therefore, the Mongols took so many cities - their losses were small - they didn’t fight ...

      In evidence:
      Jean of Vladimir Prince, who died in the city, was saved in Rostov the Great.
      The Mongols did not touch Rostov - it was a Meryansky city.

      .

      The legend of Evpatiya Kolovrat is very beautiful.
      From an early age, I will understand what I was told at a history lesson in class 4 (I can be mistaken here, but not by much).
      He was a Ryazan, and when Batu came, the Ryazan prince sent him to Chernigov for help.

      But the Prince of Chernigov did not want to help his brother, and then Evpatiy threw a cry, and 300 soldiers responded to him.
      With them, Evpathy arrived at the devastated Ryazan.
      Blood boiled when he saw how many people were killed, and he went to avenge Batyev’s army.
      Caught up, attacked, killed many ...
      But his small army was surrounded by innumerable hordes of filthy, they were afraid of Evpatiy and the Russian soldiers, and they threw stones and arrows at them.
      Batu ordered the last four soldiers to save their lives so that they would bury Yevpatiy Kolovrat.

      Personally, I saw in this legend an arrangement of the legend of 300 Spartans of Tsar Leonid.
      What does not detract from the Russian legend.

      And I liked the monument to Evpathy.
      Not an idol, not a fighting vehicle, but a man confident in power and truth.

      If I were a sculptor, I would portray the actor Nikolay Olyanin in the image of Evpatiy, at the age when he played in the cinema epic of Yu. Ozerov "Liberation".
      1. Pomeranian
        12 January 2016 15: 38 New
        0
        Quote: Sergey S.
        Jean of Vladimir Prince, who died in the city, was saved in Rostov the Great.

        In fact, the wife of Yuri died in the capital of Vladimir, burned alive in the Assumption Cathedral.
    3. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 01: 04 New
      -2
      Quote: Predator
      in reality, the number is not more than 40 thousand riders

      But I'm curious: why do all sorts of different academics believe that the Mongol army consisted exclusively of horsemen? How to take cities with cavalry, didn’t you think ??
      1. Uncle VasyaSayapin
        Uncle VasyaSayapin 11 January 2016 18: 19 New
        0
        Well this is not Total War and not the tin soldiers. Warriors can just be in a hurry.
        1. Pomeranian
          12 January 2016 09: 48 New
          -1
          Quote: Uncle VasyaSayapin
          Warriors can just be in a hurry.

          Indeed, the real story is not Total Var, the equestrian has little equipment for foot combat, and skill is needed. Dragoons, for example, are not very good horsemen and unimportant foot soldiers. Two reliable cases are known when the Tatars' equestrians fought in a hurry. During the Young and during the storm of Azov. And everywhere, the horsemen on foot did not bring their commanders but their own monstrous losses.
  13. Nonna
    Nonna 10 January 2016 11: 36 New
    +6
    Tired of pseudo-writers, the article set a plus only because of the patriotic component about our Warriors. Did he specifically write about the Sword to discredit the feat of Russian knights? there are many questions to the author - whose mill is pouring. From the basements of the Pentagon writes, not otherwise
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 10 January 2016 17: 18 New
      0
      Quote: Nonna
      Of basement pentagon writes not otherwise

      Good thing not from the basements Lubyanka. laughing
    2. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 00: 47 New
      +1
      Quote: Nonna
      Did he specifically write about the Sword to discredit the feat of Russian knights?

      Like version. If you read carefully, then I have never claimed to be scientific. I just found the battle site of the Kolovrat regiment. And that’s it.
      1. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 11 January 2016 05: 44 New
        +1
        Quote: Pomoryanin
        Like version. If you read carefully, then I have never claimed to be scientific. I just found the battle site of the Kolovrat regiment. And that’s it.

        Put the pluses as much as I could.
        Do the good and the right thing.

        But here is the question.
        In order to introduce the legend of Evpatiya Kolovrat into the scientific circulation and the educational process on the history of Russia, it is necessary to publish in peer-reviewed scientific journals and pass testing at scientific conferences and seminars.

        As a rule, the scientific community is benevolent to such results, provided that none of the scientists was affected by the new scientific idea.

        And about this.
        For the scientific community, it is important that new information comes from the scientific community, that is, publication should begin not in the media, but in those very scientific journals.

        If, however, an author appears at the conference who refers to what has already been published in the newspaper or has been heard in the program, then it scars real scientists.
        It is impossible to act in a society with false information.
        And reliability, whatever one may say, is determined by the scientific community - recognizes or not.

        I wish the author success in promoting the legend of Evpathy Kolovrat into historical characters, and that a monument must appear on the site of the last battle ...
        For some reason, since childhood, I’m sure that Evpatiy was awake, a Hero and one of those Russian knights who went through a terrible battle about which the legend "About the death of Russian heroes" was built.
        1. Pomeranian
          12 January 2016 09: 21 New
          0
          Quote: Sergey S.
          I wish the author success in promoting the legend of Evpathy Kolovrat into historical characters, and that a monument must appear on the site of the last battle ...

          Thank you for your support and good advice.
  14. Altor86
    Altor86 10 January 2016 11: 49 New
    +1
    The question is, where did the steep Mongols disappear? Where are the traces of their empire? Why was the steppe in the forest feeling good in January? How did they drag their guns through the forest, keeping up with the cavalry?
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 10 January 2016 12: 39 New
      +4
      Quote: Altor86
      The question is, where did the steep Mongols disappear? Where are the traces of their empire? Why was the steppe in the forest feeling good in January? How did they drag their guns through the forest, keeping up with the cavalry?


      In general, such armies appeared regularly in the Far East. There is some kind of fertility gene)). The Chinese states also got it. For example, from Manchuria and to the north it is quite cold and snowy. So to frighten them with this was not possible.
      Another thing is that armies of this kind moved along the steppes more easily and were imprisoned for this. The rivers were forced across the ice, if due to the fullness it didn’t work out differently.
      Just at some stage, the states (Russian principalities) in the northern forests. Became so developed that they became interested. In general, it is wrong to call them either Mongols or Tatars. If so at a glance .. manchu, Kyrgyz. Also the Mongols and a bunch of other nationalities ..
      In general, the time has come when our ancestors got it. With Novgorod, the story is different. There from Central Russian cities there is no way for such an army. Forests and swamps. So the merit of Nevsky is that he was able to take advantage of this.
      Well and so on to the heap .. The main territory and the richest territory of the Russians was not defeated. went to the Central Russian principalities. The vast territory from the Baltic to Kama, north of the Central Russian principalities, was not accessible to the Horde. There are few roads leading right now .., and then it was an impenetrable thicket. This also explains the protracted independence of Novgorod.
    2. Nikolay K
      Nikolay K 10 January 2016 16: 28 New
      +2
      Kalmyks related to the Mongoloid dispersion, by religion Buddhists, whose ancestors are Jungars belong to one of the branches of the Mongols. But actually, Genghis Khan was recruiting troops from the conquered peoples, the Mongoloids often occupied only command posts. After the conquest of Central Asia, the main part of the army was made up of Turkic-speaking peoples called the Tatars in Russia. After the first campaign in Russia, Batu began to recruit Russians in the army, in the second Eastern European campaign in Kiev and Hungary they made up half of the army of Batu.
    3. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 00: 48 New
      0
      Quote: Altor86
      How did they drag their guns through the forest, keeping up with the cavalry?

      On the rivers, in disassembled form. On the ice it is very good on a sleigh, if before that a man with a couple of thousand passed on it.
  15. Altor86
    Altor86 10 January 2016 11: 51 New
    +1
    The forests were dense. And according to one version, Evpatia was killed in the forest.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 10 January 2016 12: 06 New
      +1
      The forests were different. The Mongol Tatars moved along the rivers. And in the Vladimir-Suzdal land the famous Opole.
  16. Darkness
    Darkness 10 January 2016 11: 53 New
    +5
    Day of family and fidelity ...
    The story of a childless couple, which was based on deception, blackmail and finally divorced - should this be a real Orthodox family?
    Another story, perhaps not found?
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 00: 50 New
      0
      Quote: Darkness
      The story of a childless couple,

      They had a daughter, got married. The topic of the relationship between Peter and Fevronia is a topic for a separate article. To explain for a long time what, why and why.
  17. Kombrig
    Kombrig 10 January 2016 12: 03 New
    +3
    The retreat about the invasion of the horde with metal detectors touched .... Dear author of the article, did you yourself participate at least once in an archaeological expedition that worked in the Middle Ages, but worked with a metal detector? Probably not, otherwise why write nonsense ...
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 00: 52 New
      +1
      Quote: Kombrig
      Dear author of the article, did you yourself participate at least once in an archaeological expedition that worked in the Middle Ages, but worked with a metal detector?

      Yes, he worked, in the middle of the 80's in the Tula region, they dug up the manor of the 15 century .. But I humbly keep silent about the metal detector. I read the Criminal Code.
  18. ALEA IACTA EST
    ALEA IACTA EST 10 January 2016 12: 51 New
    +1
    The Mongols were the best ...
  19. Stilet
    Stilet 10 January 2016 13: 54 New
    +2
    No matter how many Mongols or Russians were! The important thing is that man did not change his duty and did not lose the honor of the defender of the Russian Land. The time will come and find a place of battle. And if you doubt the old Russian traditions .... then after 100 years there was no feat of defense of Brest.
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 11: 54 New
      0
      Quote: Stilet
      The time will come and find a place of battle.

      Why look if ALREADY found. winked
  20. Powder
    Powder 10 January 2016 14: 22 New
    +2
    Dear Sirs, I wonder if there are any cases of intervention in the winter in the history of our country. Napoleon, Hitler June 21-22, everything blooms and bears fruit. There is plenty of food for people and horses. Snow to the waist and frost of 25 degrees make you think about survival, and not about the conduct of hostilities. Moving along the rivers is great, but with a snow cover of 30-40 cm, you need to drive a bulldozer ahead of you. The question is about military tactics, what is the speed of movement of troops in these conditions, where to get horse feed in the forest, just count the daily ration for the war and its 3 horses. What train is needed to provide troops. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have not seen references to carts in the descriptions of the Mongol attack .. There are also no references to global intelligence of the occupied territory. Too many inconsistencies. This is not criticism, but the desire to understand and find out at least some logic.
    Sincerely.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 10 January 2016 14: 53 New
      0
      The first thing that comes to mind is the Poles in the Time of Troubles.

      "Poles at night dark
      Under the cover ... "(c)


      One of the hypotheses for the appearance of the Oka steppe flora is with the forage of the Tatar-Mongol.

      The memory of the Mongol Tatars was good. They did not forgive the execution of their ambassadors. Kozelsk is no coincidence became an evil city. And from the Ryazan lands to the Vladimir-Suzdal and at that time at hand.

      They did without a bulldozer.
    2. Nikolay K
      Nikolay K 10 January 2016 16: 47 New
      +2
      So Batu attacked Russia in winter. When spring came and the swamps began to melt, he deployed troops and went into the steppe. Thanks to this, Novgorod was saved.
    3. Predator
      Predator 10 January 2016 17: 41 New
      +2
      Here we come to planning a trip to NE Russia. During the period April-October, there were practically no roads in those places. The message was carried out along the rivers (do not judge by their present, at that time almost all of them were navigable), but by the swamps and the cavalry couldn’t pass through those dense forests. In winter, along rivers, the more people sit in villages along rivers (the season is over), the crops are harvested, fodder for livestock is harvested and the livestock is in the stall, that's why winter is chosen. And it’s prepared troops as much as needed and more than one mare. There could be only one chance to fight back - to unite all forces under a single command and close the road somewhere.
    4. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 00: 54 New
      +1
      Quote: Gunpowder
      but with a snow cover of 30-40 cm, it is necessary to drive a bulldozer ahead of you.

      Why a bulldozer? A couple of hundred people skiing or snowshoeing with a replacement after a certain time and roll the river to asphalt. After all, they practice in the Scandinavian countries on snow roads instead of sprinkling with salt and scraping to asphalt.
  21. Mangel olys
    Mangel olys 10 January 2016 14: 24 New
    0
    Well, what a stormy imagination the author has! But meanwhile, he should be given credit when he confesses this:
    Without pretending to be “scientific” in this article and discarding the newfangled theories that “there was no Mongol invasion”, we will try to restore the events of those distant days using some versions and assumptions.
    1. Pomeranian
      11 January 2016 00: 55 New
      0
      Not fantasy. The point is in the memory.
      1. Mangel olys
        Mangel olys 11 January 2016 06: 49 New
        0
        Vladimir, memory is a good thing, I agree. But the TRUTH is also important, isn't it? Tatars are the second largest nation in Russia. Here it is necessary to be more "politically correct." Suppose, as a Tatar, it is a shame for me to listen to slander against my people.
        1. Pomeranian
          11 January 2016 09: 12 New
          0
          Quote: Mangel Alys
          Suppose, as a Tatar, it is a shame for me to listen to slander against my people.

          I have not coined the term "Mongol-Tatar yoke", so, alas, the claim is not accepted. Yes, your ancestors walked around Mother Russia, so why are you ashamed? It is necessary to be proud, since such dashing great-great-great ... grandfathers of half the world put in a certain pose. Regarding "political correctness", well, not seriously, do you want to be called a Tatar-Russian ?? And about the "slander." Remember the 15-beginning of the 16 century on the territory of our common country, the permanent war of the Tatar khanates with the Russian principality, which ended only after the fall of Kazan.
          1. Mangel olys
            Mangel olys 11 January 2016 09: 33 New
            0
            Your knowledge is based on materials from Western historians (official history). And the history of the relationship between the Horde and Russia was completely different.
            1. Pomeranian
              11 January 2016 09: 58 New
              0
              Quote: Mangel Alys
              And the history of the relationship between the Horde and Russia was completely different.

              Perhaps I will not argue, but I also read the version of Gumilyov. But if we are talking about the 1238-1240 war of the year and take it and declare it non-existent, then how to explain that the pre-Mongol Ryazan was a large prosperous city by the standards, like, for example, Chernigov, and then tynts! and cities with the same names appear, but in other places. And in the place of the former - the ashes.
              1. Mangel olys
                Mangel olys 11 January 2016 16: 42 New
                0
                Well, if you read L.N. Gumilev, you should know his words two years before his death: “... Know, this is a proud name! For the sake of truth, and not for the sake of pseudoscientific, political or any other conjuncture, I, a Russian, have been protecting the Tatars from defamation all my life. They are in our blood, in our history, in our language, in our attitude ... whatever the real differences with the Russians, the Tatars are a people not outside, but inside us. ”
                Today, as in the recent past, the history of Tatarstan has turned into an eternal dilemma for Russian historians: to admit it means to belittle the Russian one and give reason to talk about who destroyed it, to hush up - to contradict the facts. A different path was chosen - silence and increased attention to small details, so that the reader would not wake up to generalize all these facts, create a single picture, as the famous German orientalist J. Hammer - Purgstahl first did in 1840 in his work “History of the Golden Horde” in Kipchak or the Mongols in Russia. ” The same thing happened with the work of B. Shpuler “The Golden Horde. The Mongols in Russia: 1223 - 1502gg "(1943) All this, unfortunately, is repeated in your article.
                And I’ll quote Lev Nikolaevich a little more, since this is in the subject: “To know and love history is one thing. And to scold other nations, to see in them the source of troubles and dangers is quite another. With respect.
                1. Pomeranian
                  12 January 2016 09: 15 New
                  0
                  Quote: Mangel Alys
                  no matter what the real differences with the Russians are, the Tatars are a people not outside, but inside us

                  Well, it’s not for me to tell you in what age the people formed on the Volga and Kama, which are now called Tatars. Moreover, according to literally all domestic sources, the frank confrontation between the former part of the Horde Volga Bulgaria and Astrakhan (I do not take Crimea into account, this is a separate issue) and the Russian principalities began from the period when "Khan Ozbyak sat on the kingdom and became deserted."
                  Quote: Mangel Alys
                  To know and love history is one thing. But scolding other nations, to see in them the source of troubles and dangers is another

                  It is generally not clear why it is given.
  22. surrozh
    surrozh 10 January 2016 15: 52 New
    +1
    Normal article. The main thing that attracts people to our history, especially young people, may be the directors will be interested, otherwise all the orcs, elves and the living dead with vampires.
    1. Semurg
      Semurg 10 January 2016 20: 02 New
      0
      Quote: surozh
      Normal article. The main thing that attracts people to our history, especially young people, may be the directors will be interested, otherwise all the orcs, elves and the living dead with vampires.

      do not be better orcs with elves. Than the ancestors of the current Buryats-Kalmyks-Tatars are “Mongols” versus the ancestors of the current Russians “Ryazan-Vladimirs”. Here, the funny cartoons were shot about Alyosha Popovich, though the last cartoons really began to smell strongly of “patriotism” and they lost it a lot.
      1. Pomeranian
        11 January 2016 09: 15 New
        0
        Quote: Semurg
        Than the ancestors of the current Buryats-Kalmyks-Tatars are “Mongols” versus the ancestors of the current Russians are “Ryazan-Vladimirs”.

        History cannot be erased
    2. The comment was deleted.
  23. Editor
    Editor 10 January 2016 21: 26 New
    0
    Quote: surozh
    Normal article. The main thing that attracts people to our history, especially young people, may be the directors will be interested, otherwise all the orcs, elves and the living dead with vampires.

    The main thing is to maintain a balance between legend and realism, otherwise it will turn out a fairy tale film or anti-scientific science fiction about Russians - descendants of the Jedi. Well, or a patriotic zombie horror - it seemed to the Tatars that the dead rebelled, so maybe it didn’t seem smile
    L. Vershinin has a story about Kozelsk - the beginning is good, but in the end the mystic with horror, mixed up on dubious esoterics ... His alternative to the Decembrists is much more worthy.
  24. SlavaP
    SlavaP 10 January 2016 22: 47 New
    0
    I do not know what is there about enchanted swords, but our ancestors were noble warriors. Historical fact - Prince Oleg and his campaign on Constantinople, which ended in the capture of the city ("Your shield on the gates of Constantinople"). So - the garrison of the city (yes, behind the high walls) totaled about 20000 people. And in Oleg’s squad there were 900 (!) Warriors. Think it over.
  25. hohol95
    hohol95 10 January 2016 23: 23 New
    +1
    If the Japanese are proud of 47 ronin, who can ban proud of Kolovrat and his people !!!
  26. mitya1941
    mitya1941 11 January 2016 11: 32 New
    +1
    It turns out interesting in the historicity of the semi-mythical battle of the Gaugamels, no one doubted the world, but here.
  27. Starshina wmf
    Starshina wmf 11 January 2016 20: 44 New
    +2
    The ancestors of the current Kalmyks and Buryats formed the guard and guard of Genghisides and rushed into battle in very difficult situations, the Turks were the basis of the troops invading Russia. The bulk of the ancestors of Kalmyks and Buryats fought at the initial stage of the conquest of Genghis Khan. With the peoples of Central Asia and China, The Middle East.
  28. Oprichnik
    Oprichnik 13 January 2016 12: 30 New
    +1
    Again these Mongols, not Mughals. Again the Tatars, not the Tartarians. Again this is a yoke, not a struggle for the faith of fathers and grandfathers. Again, the spring thaw, which prevented the capture of V. Novgorod, and not the union of A. Nevsky with Batu. Again this "Fomenkism" and its persecution, insults and sarcasm, but they do not know other similar historians. Reasoning at the level of "d.rak himself".
    Tired of convincing the "true historians" in the obvious.
  29. Warrior2015
    Warrior2015 15 January 2016 22: 58 New
    +1
    [quote = Sveles] My friend, well, you leave this nonsense about an alternative history, how many times have you been told?!? Here are briefly what are you mistaken:

    1) [quote]. "Written sources - 0 (zero)". [/ quote] I don’t even want to comment. You probably do not know that there is a “Secret Story”, not to mention that you have not read it ?!

    2). [quote] "Linguistic borrowings - 0 (zero)". [/ quote] Well, well ... Kaftan, altar, sofa, Saadak (radiant set), etc.

    3). [quote] "Cultural and legal borrowing - 0 (zero)". [/ Quote] Ohren, but you do not know that our treuhi, hats with earflaps - direct borrowing from the Mongol-Tatars as more universal and practical clothing?!? Prior to this, the Eastern Slavs walked PERFECTLY IN OTHER HEADDRESSES if that.

    4). "The economic consequences of conquering the world - 0 (zero)". I will reveal a terrible "secret" - the graves of not only Chinggis Khan, but also the first Khans of the Golden Family were NOT SO FOUNDED, but according to eyewitnesses, it was there that the unprecedented amount of stolen gold was buried.

    4). [Quote] "Numismatic traces - 0 (zero): no Mongolian coins are known to the world." [/ Quote] Well, this is generally a full star ... You probably do not know that even our princes used Horde to 15 century money?!?

    5). [quote] "The population genetics do not find the slightest trace of the Trans-Baikal nomads in the vast expanses of Eurasia, the horses they conquered." [/ quote]
    I just don’t want to talk here, for it’s SO MUCH that these trails just get away from them. Even in Mordovia and in the Vladimir region and in Hungary they are !!!
  30. Termit1309
    Termit1309 16 January 2016 11: 26 New
    +1
    . The question is about military tactics, what is the speed of movement of troops in these conditions, where to get horse feed in the forest, just count the daily ration for the war and its 3 horses. What train is needed to provide troops. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have not seen references to carts in the descriptions of the Mongol attack .. There are also no references to global intelligence of the occupied territory. Too many inconsistencies. This is not criticism, but the desire to understand and find out at least some logic.
    Sincerely.

    From the point of view of modern man, there is no logic. From the point of view of the Middle Ages a common thing.
    From village to village, from village to town, from town to ...... There is provisions, fodder, warm and satisfying. Like a locust. Leaving conflagration and corpses.
    Do not believe, read about the wars in Europe of the 15-17th centuries. About those events documents dofiga. The armies often fed themselves, reducing at times the population of entire states.
    Actually the fact that the Russian principalities after the invasion suffered such damage, just speaks of the invasion of a very large army. Scattered principalities could certainly be defeated by a smaller army. Remember the capture of England by William of Normandy. But only a large and professional army could ruin and depopulate it.
    1. Pomeranian
      16 January 2016 13: 08 New
      0
      Quote: Termit1309
      Maybe I'm wrong, but I have not seen references to carts in the descriptions of the Mongol attack .. There are also no references to global intelligence of the occupied territory. Too many inconsistencies. This is not criticism, but the desire to understand and find out at least some logic.
      Sincerely.

      Reasonable and balanced remark. But I proceeded from pure logic. If the Mongols had an engineering corps, as a kind of army, then there could be a quartermaster service. Yes, and when and where in chronicles and memoirs recall observers? Unless in a derogatory sense.
      And the rest you are absolutely right.