Military Review

Discipline in the army - the basis of the basics or ... in the archives - the power!

83
There is a widespread opinion that this repression of the 1937 of the year weakened the army, experienced officers did not become (Volkogonov DA Triumph and tragedy / Political portrait of IV Stalin. In the 2's books. M .: APN Press, 1989 , Kn.1 C.1. C.11-12), but discipline has always been in our army at the height. But is it really?


To begin, let's go to 1936, when all repressed commanders and marshals were still at their posts and get acquainted with the state of affairs based on materials from the archives of the Ministry of Defense of Russia and a number of other interesting archives.

Discipline in the army - the basis of the basics or ... in the archives - the power!


So, judging by the comments made by the commander of the Red Army's combat training department, commander 2 of rank A. Sedyakin, many units that participated in the 1936 maneuvers of the year showed an extremely low level of training of the participating troops. The infantry went to the attack not with rare chains, but with “crowds from the branches”. The soldiers instinctively clung to each other, which meant they were poorly trained. Not practicing bedding, rushing, samokapyvanie, throwing grenades.

The disgusting training of troops was recognized by S. Budyonny himself, who declared that “a company is no good, a platoon is not suitable, a detachment is no good”, “linking the interaction of types of troops ... is lame ... intelligence organization is lame ... soldiers know little duty in battle” - you read in documents of that time .

One of the reasons was the extremely low level of elementary culture among the Red Army men. For example, in 1929, 81,6% of cadets (in infantry - 90,8%) who were admitted to military schools of the ground forces had either primary education or none at all. In January, 1932% had cadets at military schools, and in 79,1, 1936% had primary education.

Komkor S. Bogomyagkov noted in 1935 year that “tactically competent commanders are 99 percent people with good overall development and broad outlook. Exceptions are rare. " But how many then had such an outlook?

The school could not teach them much. And if so, then private soldiers - they were also unable to teach in a good way. Inspection documents paint a monotonously dismal picture of the inept form of training for the rank and file. Classes are constantly frustrated because of their stupid organization. A lot of Red Army men were distracted by various household work. In a number of parts the rifle device was studied without ... the rifle itself, and the telephone was studied without a telephone. Orders for parts of the same Uborevich or Yakir are full of examples of simplifying the rules of firing at the exercises, and all this because otherwise they would simply not hit the target.

And, of course, the army, first of all, begins with discipline, the appearance of the soldiers and commanders, the respect that they can instill with all their appearance, military bearing, knowledge. The divisional commander K. Podlas in October 1936 wrote about this: “The younger ones keep their elders familiarly, loosely, put their feet away…. Sitting take orders, wrangle ... A lot of ragged uniforms, dirty, unshaven, etc. ". Every now and then the documents of the inspectors report that the cadets' uniform was not erased all summer, that they didn’t know what to do when the senior commander appeared, and those were the people who were ordered to train soldiers in the future. It was not so in the Russian tsarist army. One of the old tsarist officers recalled that when the senior officer gave the command to the junkers to form themselves, they should not look at their faces, but only at the tips of the bayonets. Just try to move - you can see everything.

The junior commanders of the Red Army, issued from similar Soviet schools, also looked unattractive. Uncontrolled, often unshaven and in torn tunics, in principle they could not be demanding. It was quite possible to obscure, dignify as a “balda”. A platoon commander or foreman could be criticized by a Komsomol fighter at a Komsomol meeting. What military discipline could there be? And what to do if that was the very atmosphere of the then “proletarian state”. The soldier was seen not so much as a soldier, as a “comrade of such and such ...” (Andrey Smirnov. Great maneuvers // Motherland. 2000, No. 4. С.86-93)

Even a superficial acquaintance with the materials of our military archives shows that the roots of the 1941 disaster of the year go not at all at 1937, but at ... 1917! Moreover, this statement is easily provable. For example, there is data on the state of military discipline just before the war. In a number of the Red Army, emergencies became rampant:

If in the fourth quarter of 1940 there were 3669 incidents, then in the first quarter of 1941 of the year already 4649, that is, there was an increase of 26,6%. As a result of an emergency in the army, 10 048 people were out of action, with 2921 killed and injured 7127 people. In the first quarter of 1941, 3244 people were out of order, of which 945 were killed and 2290 people were injured. The average number of killed and wounded was at the level of 27 – 28 people per day, and in Q1 1941 of the year already 36 people (TsAMO is the Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense, 32, op. 11309, d. 26, l. 245 — 246. ). It is clear that this indicates an increase in the intensity of combat training. But what conclusion was made on the basis of these data and inspections by the Commission on the transfer of affairs of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense by Marshal of the Soviet Union K. Ye. Voroshilov to Marshal of the Soviet Union S. K. Timoshenko: “military discipline is not at the proper level and does not ensure the exact implementation of its combat missions "(ibid. d.15.l.8.)

Already during the war, in order to strengthen military discipline for officers, seminars, meetings, lectures, reports and discussions were organized on the following topics: “On single-commandment in the Red Army”, “Commander-educator and leader of his subordinates”, etc. For example, in parts 1st Guards tank A lecture was given to the army for officers: “On the role of an officer in strengthening military discipline”, two-day gatherings of tank commanders, tank company commanders and battalions were held, where issues of the practice of training discipline in soldiers were considered (TsAMO, f. 299, op. 3063, d. 31, l. 19.). In the 41st Guards. at the 16th Army at a meeting of the command and political composition, the question “On the introduction of unity of command and the immediate tasks to strengthen discipline” was discussed (TsAMO, f. 208, op. 5415, d. 4, p. 85). Of course, it’s very cool that it would be so if it were not for one “but”: all this happened in the army, where discipline is the basis of the foundations!

Note that the period from 1934 to 1939 years the salary of the commanders of the Red Army has increased dramatically. For example, K. Ye. Voroshilov at the 18 Congress of the CPSU (b) reported that the commanders' monthly earnings — from platoon to corps — increased approximately 2,5-3,5 times. But the greatest "concern" was shown about the top-level commanders. And most importantly - the salary has grown, but problems with discipline remain!

And another thing is significant: almost simultaneously with the salary increase for the red commanders, the cases of their divorces with their proletarian wives became noticeably more frequent. And here there was not only their desire to marry younger and more beautiful, but also, preferably, the former representatives of the nobility. That is, people tried to at least so join the "high and pure." But what was to be done by those for whom even the special designation “non-commissioned officers clique” exists? Before 1937, they had little chance of reaching noticeable heights in the same army, but mass purges had cleared their way up. It is obvious that these very people, who were rapidly rising over the corpses, could not be the moral ideal of the “new society”. But after all they were making their way up ...

Since the beginning of the war, problems with discipline worsened even more and, of course, they were solved in 1941 and in 1944 (TsAMO, f. 32, op. 11318, d. 63, l. 24). But it was often decided this way - through assault and ... assassinations! For example, in the directive of the political director of the Western Front No. 00205 from 29.07.1941, there were cases of "unjustified shootings of fighters and commanders" (TsAMO, f. 221, op.1362, l.4.d.87). It can be “written off” to the special circumstances of the beginning of the war. However, it was only in January, 1944, on the 2 Ukrainian Front that there were more than 100 cases of assault and massacre (Ibid., 240, op. 2772, d.18, l.180, 277,380,400)!

Well, what could a lack of discipline at the front lead to and, accordingly, the panic arising in such a situation shows an example of the 34 Army of the Western Front in the period from 10 to August 26 of 1941. On 10 August it consisted of: the entire 54912 man, the commanding staff of all levels of 4434 man, tanks - 83, artillery guns - 376, rifles and machine guns - 43220. After the panic retreat on 26 in August, there remained: the personnel of the 22043 man (40,1% of the initial quantity), the commanding staff of 2059 (46,4%), tanks - 9 units (10,8%), guns - 92 (25,0%), rifles and machine guns - 11975 (27,7%) (TsAMO, f.32, op.11309, d.51, l.38.) Again, they tried to fight panic with executions. So, in October 1941 of the year in the 30 Army on the Western Front shot 20 people, and in 43-th - 30 (TsAMO, f.32, op.11389, d.50, l.NNXX.). But it helped badly. For example, despite the executions of alarmists on the battlefield, 126 sd (South-Western Front) from 97 to 6 in August three times in a row left the battlefield, and lost up to 8% of personnel and a large number weapons and military equipment (TsAMO, f.221, op.1362, d.34, l.195). That is, this measure is not valid!

One of the worst cases of violation of military discipline is desertion. And here it is by years: 1941 - 30782 people, 1942 - 111994, 1943 - 82733, 1944 - 32723, 1945 - 6872. Total: 265104 person (GWP Archive (State Military Prosecutor's Office) - 1941-1945: d.253, l.76; d.258, l.1,5; d.265, l.24). And the most surprised deserters in 1945-ohm. This is what kind of person you had to be to decide on this this year ?! Of course, in 45, people died, but still, only the last idiot could have done this at such a time! We also had reporters, and there were a lot of them: in 1941 - 8105, in 1942 - 25265, in 1943 - 16631, in 1944 - 6959, in 1945 - 1696. Total: 68656 (GWP archive: d.253, d.76, l.1,5; d.265, l.24). After all, 265 thousand is 33% of the total number of military personnel convicted during the war years, from 1941 to 1945 year (Archive of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR Supreme Court. Op.1. Por.316, nar. 86 s, l.3,48.). It is easy to calculate that the 803031 man was convicted of all for various crimes during the war years! And this is very important, because the corpus delicti of crimes is still on the “secret list”, that is, it is impossible to find out for what specifically who sat down under which article. It can be conclusively argued that a book published in Germany about a million and a half Germans raped by our soldiers is a lie! Because of this kind of crime in the Red Army were stopped and punished very severely. And it is clear that although among the 803301 convicted offenders, of course, there were, but even this number does not even reach half of the declared one and a half million! Because there was theft, looting and, say, self-harm, and the most banal "scuffle" on the basis of drunkenness and arising between fighters (and even between the commanders - personally, I am sure that it happened!) Hostility.

So the study of archival materials is not only a tool for learning the truth in relation to our stories, as well as the role of the same discipline during the Great Patriotic War, but also an important means of repelling modern slanderers of Russia!
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  1. bionik
    bionik 29 December 2015 07: 15 New
    -1
    On the splash screen article: of the 5 marshals, only two remained Budyonny and Voroshilov.
    1. qwert
      qwert 29 December 2015 08: 18 New
      10
      This is very well written in the books of Mukhin. At least in the early thirties, the army was a complete mess. And I must say the repressions (which were not at all in the volumes indicated by SOLZhinitsin) put things in order
      1. kalibr
        29 December 2015 09: 27 New
        0
        If in the fourth quarter of 1940 there were 3669 incidents, then in the first quarter of 1941 of the year already 4649, that is, there was an increase of 26,6%. As a result of an emergency in the army, 10 048 people were out of action, with 2921 killed and injured 7127 people. In the first quarter of 1941, 3244 people were out of order, of which 945 were killed and 2290 people were injured. The average number of killed and wounded was at the level of 27 – 28 people per day, and in Q1 1941 of the year already 36 people (TsAMO is the Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense, 32, op. 11309, d. 26, l. 245 — 246. ). It is clear that this indicates an increase in the intensity of combat training. But what conclusion was made on the basis of these data and inspections by the Commission on the transfer of affairs of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense by Marshal of the Soviet Union K. Ye. Voroshilov to Marshal of the Soviet Union S. K. Timoshenko: “military discipline is not at the proper level and does not ensure the exact implementation of its combat missions "(ibid. d.15.l.8.)
        So they brought it?
        1. avt
          avt 29 December 2015 09: 43 New
          +9
          Quote: kalibr
          So they brought it?

          They brought it with great difficulty and expense. Order No. 227 is not nonsense of a "bloodthirsty paranoid tyrant", but quite an adequate reaction to the impending catastrophe, the roots of which really lie back in the Civil with its semi-partisan army. that Minsk # 2 "Putinslilnovorossiyu".
          1. kalibr
            29 December 2015 10: 09 New
            0
            So after all, man did not write about the 227 order, did he, but about the repressions before the war, didn’t they? And, yes, it was a necessary order, but the discussion above was about another temporary segment. In any case, as I understand it.
            1. avt
              avt 29 December 2015 11: 32 New
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              but the discussion above was about another temporary segment

              It doesn’t happen - I write here, then turn it over and re-start from a clean sheet.
              Quote: kalibr
              but about the repression before the war, isn’t it?

              Have you read the full article? Or just what I wanted between the lines diagonally?
              Since the beginning of the war, problems with discipline worsened even more and, of course, they were solved in 1941 and in 1944 (TsAMO, f. 32, op. 11318, d. 63, l. 24). But it was often decided this way - through assault and ... assassinations! For example, in the directive of the political director of the Western Front No. 00205 from 29.07.1941, there were cases of "unjustified shootings of fighters and commanders" (TsAMO, f. 221, op.1362, l.4.d.87). It can be “written off” to the special circumstances of the beginning of the war. However, it was only in January, 1944, on the 2 Ukrainian Front that there were more than 100 cases of assault and massacre (Ibid., 240, op. 2772, d.18, l.180, 277,380,400)!
              and without a desire to understand the meaning of the author’s input, replacing it with his own? Especially in light of the author’s end of the article
              So the study of archival materials is not only an instrument of knowledge of the truth regarding our history, as well as the role of the same discipline during the Second World War, but also an important means of repulse to modern slanderers of Russia!
              1. vladimirZ
                vladimirZ 29 December 2015 16: 37 New
                +8
                The author Shpakovsky is again in his repertoire.
                He writes about one negative
                without affecting the great work carried out by commanders of all levels to strengthen discipline and eradicate shortcomings, without mentioning that for the most part the soldiers of the Red Army were not as Shpakovsky writes about them.
                Shpakovsky began with repressions in the Red Army, then turned negative from the 30s to 1945 in the Red Army, kicked "1917" along the way, described the illiterate cadets, how dirty and undisciplined they were. He discussed the "problem" of German women rapists, deserters, self-mutilators, etc.
                I am surprised when reading Shpakovsky how the Red Army defeated the disciplined, fascist German army that defeated all of Europe?
                1. Uncle VasyaSayapin
                  Uncle VasyaSayapin 29 December 2015 17: 21 New
                  +2
                  1. Our people are naturally smart and therefore quickly learn. 2. The country, for some reason, knows how to nominate prominent people as leaders in difficult periods. 3. The country received tremendous technical assistance from Western countries. These three points have overcome the problem of knowledge, and the third point is also the problem of money. Regarding the help of Western countries, briefly: the main industrial facilities in the 20s and 30s were created according to projects and with the assistance of Western countries. The main part of the tanks: T-26 and BT, ZiS-5, GAZ-AA, GAZ-A, GAZ-M1, Li-2 aircraft, aircraft engines, GAZ-11 engine, which was mounted on light tanks, self-propelled guns, and other equipment were created by Western projects. During the war, the United States delivered cars. In the USSR, more than we produced in all the years before!
                  A, and another point 4. Russian people are the best warriors by nature of their nature (ceteris paribus of course).
                  1. kalibr
                    29 December 2015 17: 40 New
                    0
                    Yes, yes, yes, and yes again. The very mother nature made us such as Klyuchevsky wrote!
                2. kalibr
                  29 December 2015 17: 38 New
                  0
                  Commanders of all levels wrote about the "big work" that they did during the Soviet era. I am writing about what the USSR did not write about ... How did you win? I won with difficulty. Konstantin Simonov wrote about it this way: "Yes, the enemy was brave, the more our glory!" Do you disagree?
                  1. vladimirZ
                    vladimirZ 29 December 2015 19: 15 New
                    -1
                    You do not agree?
                    - kalibr - Shpakovsky

                    I do not agree with what you are doing, continue from article to article, smear everything with black paint.
                    Reading your opuses, only a negative picture and surprise is created: "But how did we win, with such a massive mess, illiteracy and indiscipline?"
                    The truth is that the bulk of our soldiers and commanders were disciplined, quickly trained, especially during the war, and brave.
                    As for the alarmists, cowards, deserters and other negatives that you write about, they were, but they do not determine the victory in the war.
                    All the same, the victory goes to those who have the bulk of the warriors competent, disciplined, courageous and initiative, who can cope with the shortcomings indicated in your article. And this is just the Red Army, and not paying tribute to the ability of its commanders to correct the negative trend, to create a skillful, disciplined Army, is bad and not fair.
                    Criticism and historiography of the past should be balanced, objective, and not slanderous and drenched only in mud.
                    1. kalibr
                      29 December 2015 19: 28 New
                      0
                      If I lived in Podolsk, I would not for one division and an army, but for all of them, I would find how much, when, where, and you would be horrified at all and coped with the shortcomings with a lot of blood, and not a quick Stalinist blow ... And the consequences of the war still affect our country. Have you heard about the "second echo" of war? Here it overtakes us every 5th year until now! So my criticism is biased only in the fact that I give little of the truth about what happened. In fact, there is more negative at times. You go to the archives of the Moscow region in Podolsk and see for yourself, the desire to write nonsense will disappear right away!
                      1. vladimirZ
                        vladimirZ 30 December 2015 05: 32 New
                        0
                        You go to the archives of Moscow region in Podolsk and see for yourself, the desire to write nonsense will disappear immediately!
                        - kalibr - Shpakovsky

                        That you are stupid and slander write to the Red Army!
                        You look in the archives for how many brave, disciplined, accomplished feats of soldiers and commanders, correlate them with the amount of negativity that you write about, with the great work done in the Red Army to turn it into the strongest army in the world, with high discipline, high moral fighting spirit of soldiers and officers.
                        Maybe then it will reach you that the foundation of the Red Army is competent, disciplined, with high morale and combat qualities of soldiers and commanders.
                        Your articles are one-sided, looking only for dirt and negativity, in the victorious Red Army, which defeated the practically united army of Europe, led by the Hitler Wehrmacht.
                        So all this work of yours is biased, despite the links of the Podolsk archive.


                        You look like Western scribblers who set as their goal to denigrate Russia, the USSR, the Red Army as much as possible, in order to create a virus of doubt in the righteousness of the actions of Russia and its soldiers in people against the backdrop of this negativity, to show that the victory of the USSR and the Red Army is random and not deserved by her warriors.
                      2. kalibr
                        30 December 2015 21: 00 New
                        0
                        Strange, but in my opinion, the article explicitly says that the final goal is to show the failure of the sexually attributed crimes to our soldiers, that for moral and all other circumstances, he simply could not do what was attributed to them. Moreover, this is affirmed not unfounded, but again with links to documents. Why don’t you know how to read? And how is this victory not deserved if we won? So they overcome the shortcomings and all the rest! What is the doubt? That overcame? But if they had not overcome, then they would not have won. And where is it more righteous to be? We were attacked, we are defending ourselves! Or were our Suvorov soldiers polls examples of morality, did not drink, did not steal? Everything was! People are people. In the 1813 year, the Penza militia rebelled, did not want to fight Napoleon, for which they fell under the scourge and through the ranks. So what? You can’t write about this? It was! But there wasn’t what Western historians ascribe to us, that’s what’s important. As you do not understand, the mind is incomprehensible.
                  2. kalibr
                    29 December 2015 21: 28 New
                    +1
                    "quickly trained, especially in war" - a roasted rooster, as he pecks, he will peck, and before that, you can ... and be a little too lazy, isn't it?
                  3. kalibr
                    30 December 2015 18: 02 New
                    0
                    But why then, only in 1944 did the Germans kill more tanks than we lost ourselves? Despite the fact that we always had more tanks, more were produced, and they were better than German? The reason is? If the tanks are better, then the crews are worse, if not worse, then ... the tanks are bad, if not bad and all tip-top, then the bosses are worthless? If everything is fit, then why such a loss?
                    Yes, this calculation was carried out according to the Sovinformburo. And he did not make sense to underestimate the German losses, on the contrary, they were rather overstated. Well, the data in the new history of the Second World War in 12 volumes - look. Everything is there!
                    1. vladimirZ
                      vladimirZ 30 December 2015 19: 34 New
                      0
                      But why then, only in 1944 did the Germans knock out more tanks than we ourselves lost? ...
                      - - kalibr - Shpakovsky

                      And why then did we win, with a poor ability to fight?
                      You ask this question.
                      Why is it that with the negativity that you constantly write about, the Red Army has broken the backbone of Nazi Germany, and with it the whole of Europe, working or fighting the Germans against the USSR?

                      Why did this happen when the Red Army was overrun, in your words, by "illiterate and inept" commanders, tank crews, and "undisciplined" soldiers?
                      And in general, kalibr - Shpakovsky, if you think you are a serious historian, which I personally doubt very much because of your inept, tendentiously biased, one-sidedly negative position on the described topic of the USSR and the Red Army, then approach any topic "comprehensively, and from different angles ", as you advise one of your opponents here, and be objective.
                      In your articles there is no objectivity, in it there is only the dirt and the denigrating of historical events.
                      For what purpose are you doing this?
                      Do you work off Western grants, earn a living from this, following in the footsteps of the traitor Rezun, "Suvorov"? He, too, all the time referred to his true historical research. Glory Rezun- "Suvorov" haunts?
                    2. kalibr
                      30 December 2015 21: 11 New
                      -1
                      And what kind of manner is this, to measure everything on money, to just remember grants? And without grants in any way, right? Calm down with grants. And I did not say that the illiterates were flooded, I asked a question, and you do not answer it and are trying to fight off the brain-thinning pseudo-patriotic chatter. So the discussion is not conducted. Answer my question first. And where is the bias to ask about the well-known fact that only in 1944 we destroyed more tanks from the Germans than we lost ourselves? As for the "glory of the rezun", why do I need someone else's when I have my own. My books are published both in Russia and abroad, are republished, receive good reviews from critics, what else does a historian need? Go down there and read what UNCLE VASYASAYAPIN writes - I completely agree with him, and he doesn't spit out like you and doesn't count money in someone else's pocket ...
                    3. gusev_sa
                      gusev_sa 31 December 2015 16: 29 New
                      0
                      You saliva on the Red Army and the USSR. The fact that you are a liberal paskudnik and grantosos can be seen from your half-hearted texts. These links to Smirnov, the same anti-adviser and grantosos, taken out of the context of quotation, distorting the facts.


                      The position of the editorial board of this allegedly "patriotic" site is surprising.
                      After all, Shpakovsky is a famous scaffold and grantosos. Nevertheless, he is given the opportunity to our country.
  2. Mr. Pip
    Mr. Pip 29 December 2015 10: 22 New
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    So they brought it?

    If I don’t confuse anything, then they “induced” - the political discipline of the higher commanding officers - it was more difficult for the lower and middle military to impose, it was “induced” from the school-university hi
    1. jjj
      jjj 29 December 2015 12: 31 New
      0
      You can discuss for a long time about the benefits or dangers of purges in the army. But we have one indisputable result - Victory 1945 of the year
      1. kaa_andrey
        kaa_andrey 29 December 2015 13: 48 New
        +1
        http://topwar.ru/14122-disciplina-v-rimskoy-armii.html
        Discipline in the Roman Army / publication of May 12, 2012

        the history of mankind, the history of armies - charters are written in blood discipline is one of the pillars of victory.
  • Same lech
    Same lech 29 December 2015 07: 28 New
    +9
    Because there was larceny, and looting, and, say, self-mutilation, and the most banal "scuffle" on the basis of drinking and arising between the fighters (and even between the commanders - I’m personally sure that this happened too!).


    There were such stories in the Second World War ...
    in the evening the unit commander went to his mistress in the neighboring village for the night ... and then the Germans attacked the unit’s positions as a result of the deceased political commander and several soldiers.
    The next day, the commander was arrested ... then a tribunal and speedy execution ... and the commander was with orders.
    So the war does not forgive mistakes and does not write off everything ... it was very simple to pay for your stupidity and carelessness.
  • cap
    cap 29 December 2015 07: 48 New
    +4
    "It is easy to calculate that 803031 people were convicted for various crimes during the war years! And this is very important, because the corpus delicti is still on the" secret list ", that is, to find out what exactly, who sat down under what article, It can be argued that a book published in Germany about one and a half million Germans raped by our soldiers - a lie! Because this kind of crime in the Red Army was suppressed and punished very severely. And it is clear that although there were rapists among the 803301 convicts, of course, but even this number does not even reach half of the declared one and a half million! Because there was theft, and looting and, say, also self-harm, and the most banal "scuffle" on the basis of drunkenness and hostile relations that arose between the soldiers (and even between the commanders - I personally am sure that this happened! "
    To the author plus. So I publish in Germany, Poland and others like them. Dentistry from a well-known comedy.
    "Two tape recorders ..., two suede jacket ....". The archives are of no interest to anyone.
    But in vain. I personally believe the authors who give figures taken from archival data.
    Often foreign writers refer to letters of dubious authorship, memoirs of the "veterans" of the Reich. All that can, upon close examination, be classified as OBS. Such literature was published in Russian under Gorbachev in tons with the message "to repent for sins." As you can see, we also have people with a serious approach to such important things as historical truth. hi
  • parusnik
    parusnik 29 December 2015 08: 09 New
    -1
    “The younger ones keep with the older ones familiarly, licentiously, put down their legs .... Sitting, they take orders, quarrel ... A lot of torn uniforms, dirty, unshaven, etc. ".. What kind of commander, such and subordinates .. All in a heap is not necessary to bring down ...
    Happy New Year, Vyacheslav .. Success in the New Year!
    1. kalibr
      29 December 2015 08: 24 New
      +1
      Thank you! The same and fair wind!
    2. Mr. Pip
      Mr. Pip 29 December 2015 10: 17 New
      -1
      Quote: parusnik
      What a commander, such and subordinates .. All in a heap is not necessary to bring down

      So it seems that the author does not knock down, but simply states the most natural lack of education of these very commanders - well, what else could they have been if "yesterday" they were drinking from the same well with these same soldiers? request
    3. Uncle VasyaSayapin
      Uncle VasyaSayapin 29 December 2015 18: 03 New
      +1
      My mother’s grandfather was a city dweller and a small businessman: he kept a shop in the city (now the regional center), then in the 20th he had a loan (a small farm), then everything was taken from him, except for the respect of the people and the set of dishes, and he was evicted to the nearest village. So I have his photo, still pre-revolutionary, where this respected man is solemnly standing in a crumpled suit. There was another time, other ideas about what is bad and what is good.
  • V.ic
    V.ic 29 December 2015 08: 26 New
    0
    Well, what do you say? The army is part of society, though with very specific restrictions on personal freedom. If the army had numerous facts of a mess, then what to do with society? Perspective so-called repression begs.
  • Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 29 December 2015 08: 30 New
    +5
    Mr. Shpakovsky in his repertoire on political topics. Everything was disgusting in the USSR.
    “One of the reasons was the extremely low level of elementary culture among the Red Army. For example, in 1929, 81,6% of the cadets (in the infantry - 90,8%) admitted to the military schools of the ground forces had either primary education or none at all. In January 1932, 79,1% of cadets of military schools had primary education, and in 1936 - 68,5%. "
    And in 1941, there were as many as 5% literate?
    With the outbreak of war, problems with discipline became even more acute and, of course, they were solved both in 1941 and in 1944 (TsAMO, f. 32, op. 11318, d. 63, p. 24). But they often decided that way - through assault and ... unauthorized executions!
    Discipline directly according to Shpakovsky depends on literacy. The historian is more disciplined than, say, an illiterate peasant.
    "And here there was not only their desire to marry younger and more beautiful, but also, preferably, the former representatives of the nobility."
    Of course, the "illiterate red commander", a communist, is simply obliged to marry a noblewoman and leave the "proletarian wife".
    "A platoon commander or foreman could be criticized by a Komsomol soldier at a Komsomol meeting. What kind of military discipline could there be?"
    And this is written by a "communist who has recovered his sight," with experience in teaching communist ideology?
    "So the study of archival materials is not only a tool for learning the truth in relation to our history, as well as the role of the same discipline during the Second World War, but also an important means of repelling modern slanderers of Russia!"
    It's true! Studying, not digging up dirt.
    I believe my father, drafted into the Red Army in the distant 1939, who met the war in the summer camps near Brest, he is a sergeant with seven education classes, who led dozens of people from the encirclement near Smolensk and almost shot him. I believe him, defender of Stalingrad and the liberator of his homeland and Europe from fascism, and not Mr. Shpakovsky.
    And he said that the officers were experts in their field and that even soldiers who didn’t know the Russian language (there were also those who knew Russian in several who did not know the Kazakhs) served in a disciplined, diligent and honest manner.
    To serve in the army was an honor.
    1. kalibr
      29 December 2015 08: 37 New
      +1
      But I haven't come up with anything ... Everything, as you see, is taken from archived data! "There is no need to blame the mirror, since the face is crooked!" - so the people said among the illiterate peasants. Or not? And don't believe me, believe in God. You have to look at the documents! By the way, one of the greats said: Freedom is a conscious need! Conscious! It is easier for the literate to understand it, isn't it?
      1. Severomor
        Severomor 29 December 2015 10: 57 New
        +3
        Quote: kalibr
        So I didn’t come up with anything ...

        And this is how to bring it up, you can "dig" a million spoiled German women)))))), and you can cite as an example the tribunals with execution for rape.

        Documents are also presented differently, here Volkogonov did this: "a quote from MK"

        “It was especially difficult to fight off clever people from the Central Committee of the Komsomol,“ literary scholars ”from the Central Committee of the CPSU, heads of all kinds of press services of the KGB, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the prosecutor’s office. But most of all the nasty things were done to us by the head of the culture department of the Glavpura MO General Volkogonov, future ardent accuser of Soviet power... But that later, and then he was ready to tear any journalist to pieces for this power. Any truthful publication about the past war infuriated him, and I had to make excuses at the top "

        But Yakovlev and K * made it easier, faked the archive and try to prove what is wrong
        1. kalibr
          29 December 2015 12: 15 New
          0
          What archive did they fake? The whole archive? How is this known? Did you help them?
          1. Severomor
            Severomor 29 December 2015 12: 31 New
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            What archive did they fake? The whole archive? How is this known? Did you help them?

            Oh yes, one person told me in secret, and another well-known source told him in secret that he was bequeathed to his memoirs by a secret intelligence officer.

            PS Look at least the case of the Katyn execution of Poles by Germans (NKVD Poles)
            1. kalibr
              29 December 2015 17: 45 New
              0
              Then this is the OBS agency.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 29 December 2015 11: 31 New
      +1
      Quote: There was a mammoth
      Mr. Shpakovsky in his repertoire on political topics. Everything was disgusting in the USSR.

      Actually, this is not Shpakovsky. These are almost verbatim quotations from Smirnov's article "Great maneuvers". smile There was also about the level of training in the troops for 1936:
      ... as of February 15, 1936, 24 percent of secondary commanders, that is, lieutenants and senior lieutenants (they mainly commanded platoons and companies), did not have 68,6% of secondary education in the 96th division of secondary education, and 71% in the 64,6th. Among the senior commanders (including captains, who made up the bulk of the battalion commanders), there were 59 and XNUMX percent, respectively.

      Moreover, Smirnov's emphasis was not on discipline. And the fact that, without a normal basic education, the red commanders were confused in the simplest things and were lost even on maneuvers when the situation went beyond the scope of the written script. The elite of the Red Army - 1 TTBR - for example, suddenly found itself in front of a band of grooves (that is, reconnaissance and security were safely forgotten).
      Having formally completed the training, the commanders were unable to take full advantage of the knowledge gained - because they did not fully understand it. As a result, they conducted the training of subordinates to the best of their understanding of the knowledge gained - for example, organizing observation classes with the NP without the equipment of the NP itself, without communication and even without binoculars. Or conducting training in shooting from an easel machine gun without installing it in the horizon.
      Quote: There was a mammoth
      And he said that the officers were experts in their field

      When checking the command staff of the 2nd battalion 12 motorized rifle regiment in the amount of 15 people. on elementary issues of infantry tactics it turned out:
      1 pax knows well - 7%
      2 pax they know mediocrely - 13%
      12 pax they know poorly - 80%
      When checking the tactical training of the command personnel of the 3rd battalion of the 24th tank regiment, it turned out:
      6 pax mediocre - 46%
      7 pax weak - 54% ...
      Most of the command personnel of these battalions completed all sorts of short-term courses. Many of the personnel of the 12th Motorized Rifle Regiment stated that they had never read the infantry combat manual of Part II and the field manual of 36. The knowledge of the command staff of the 3rd battalion of the 24th tank regiment does not go beyond the combat charter of the tank troops, part 1. They did not read other charters. Military magazines are not read.

      This, for a minute - 8 MK, the best mechanized corps of KOVO.
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 29 December 2015 15: 08 New
        +2
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Actually, this is not Shpakovsky. These are almost verbatim quotes from Smirnov's article "Great maneuvers"

        Maybe. I did not see links to quotes. And Smirnova did not read. So sorry.
        Quote: semirek
        ... Formally having passed the training, the commanders were unable to take full advantage of the knowledge gained - because they did not fully understand it ....

        Everyone who has served in the army knows for sure why the curbs are whitened and the grass painted green and why the soldier's pants are white.
        I remember my father's confusion and resentment about the army when he heard how the outstanding Minister of Defense was bringing tanks into Grozny. "How can this be?" - it was the most harmless. Grachev, too, did not read the regulations, did not know how to use tanks in the city? The Ryazan Airborne Troops don't know what regulations are? I do not believe.
        Statistics is great, of course, but can you imagine that you haven’t read the Charter committee? My driving experience has been more than 40 years, not a single accident (pah-pah), but I’ll not let it go again. Although, more than 40 years have passed since he served, pick it up at night, I’ll quote right away what is forbidden by the sentry at the post. The number of weapons and gas masks still use as passwords.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        ... without a normal basic education, the red commanders were confused in the simplest things and were lost even on maneuvers ....

        Those. The Red Army is a bunch of illiterate and without a king in the head crowd? Do you know exactly what basic education was in military schools?
        I can imagine what the French were taught if the Germans had two weeks.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 29 December 2015 16: 39 New
          +1
          Quote: Was Mammoth
          I remember my father's confusion and resentment about the army when he heard how the outstanding Minister of Defense was bringing tanks into Grozny. "How can this be?" - it was the most harmless. Grachev, too, did not read the regulations, did not know how to use tanks in the city? The Ryazan Airborne Troops don't know what regulations are? I do not believe.

          And what does Grozny-1994 have to do with the situation of the 30s?
          No need to judge the Red Army of the 30s by the Soviet and Russian army. Unlike the Soviet army, in which anyone could be trained, the Red Army did not have the main component of the SA - a competent junior command staff. There was no one to teach recruits with education from 7 classes and less (80% of the contingent) to the wisdom of handling the same diesel engines or SVT (which had to be cleaned every day and which allowed several options for improper assembly). Moreover, complaints came from the units that the quality of training of the junior command staff in army schools is such that ordinary soldiers often know more than junior commanders.
          Quote: Was Mammoth
          Statistics is great, of course, but can you imagine that you haven’t read the Charter committee?

          I can even imagine that the chief of staff of the regiment at the check was unable to assign a combat mission to the battalion.
          And I can also imagine the situation of 1940 in the ZAPOVO:
          "Over the past 4 months, the Okrug has carried out the following measures to train senior command personnel and staffs: (...)
          As a result of all these activities, the operational training of senior officers significantly increased and is evaluated mediocre."

          Quote: Was Mammoth
          Although, more than 40 years have passed since he served, pick it up at night, I’ll quote right away what is forbidden by the sentry at the post. The number of weapons and gas masks still use as passwords.

          Sumptuously. Now remove from your unit half of the sergeants and young commissars. And reduce the level of education of the remaining and conscript contingent to "7 grades and below."
          This is the 30th, not the 70s. Compulsory universal primary education was introduced only in 1930. And Likbez worked until the end of the 30s.
          Oh yes, remove the Disciplinary Code too - no it. There is class consciousness.
          Quote: Was Mammoth
          Those. The Red Army is a bunch of illiterate and without a king in the head crowd? Do you know exactly what basic education was in military schools?

          In 1929, 81,6 percent (and in infantry schools — 90,8 percent) of the army enrollment in military schools had only primary education or had none at all!
          In January 1932, 79,1 percent of military school cadets had primary education.
          In January 1936 - at 68,5 percent (but in armored vehicles - at 85 percent).
          In 1939, among cadets of colleges, graduating from technical schools and technical schools accounted for 14,5% of the total number, 10 classes - 17%, 9 classes - 9,9%, 8 classes - 12,6%, 7 classes - 43,9%, and students Universities were 1,5%.

          Here is the basic education of cadets. In the 30s, in the army, at best, graduates of elementary schools were taught commanders. What do you think - you can cram 6-8 years of a comprehensive school into a course of a military school or school, and in parallel with military disciplines?
          1. Was mammoth
            Was mammoth 29 December 2015 17: 44 New
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            What do you think - you can cram 6-8 years of a comprehensive school into a course of a military school or school, and in parallel with military disciplines?

            Illiterate and hungry Red Army defeated the White educated army along with the entire Entente in the Civil War. Again, the illiterate Red Army hoisted the Victory flag in Berlin, smashing the world's most disciplined army. How did you manage? Something you do not fit. By the way, the backwardness of the development of the USSR from whom inherited? And what was the breakthrough of the development of the Soviet Union in the 30s? Yes, an army without discipline is not an army, it is a gang.
            Did you serve in the army yourself, or is it a maximum of a "military man"? At the same time, think about what has Grozny to do with it?
            1. kalibr
              29 December 2015 22: 17 New
              0
              Do you know how many former tsarist officers joined the Bolsheviks? So you can’t call her illiterate in those years. The commanders had both imperialist experience and skills, and a desire to make a career under the new government.
              1. Mr. Pip
                Mr. Pip 29 December 2015 22: 42 New
                +1
                Quote: kalibr
                Do you know how many former tsarist officers joined the Bolsheviks? So you can’t call her illiterate in those years.

                Exactly. And given the lack of unity in the "White Army" and how its individual "Caesars" were "mowed" in their territories, the Bolsheviks just had to "mow" less to win.
                Well, if figuratively request
              2. Was mammoth
                Was mammoth 29 December 2015 22: 55 New
                -1
                Quote: kalibr
                Do you know how many former tsarist officers went over to the Bolsheviks?

                Read. Only this had the other side of the coin. Institute of Commissioners. Dual power in the army never led to good. Therefore, the power of party workers was further limited. In our battery, the political officer was called "lace". wink Well, should you explain the officers' love for a special department?
            2. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 30 December 2015 10: 34 New
              0
              Quote: Was Mammoth
              Illiterate and hungry Red Army defeated the White educated army along with the entire Entente in the Civil War
              ... with the active help of the officer corps of the old army. Moreover, from two sides - for the white officers in the civilian made all possible tactical and operational errors. It came to senility - officers with experience of 4 years of war forgot how to fight in winter (and in general, that winter may come in December):
              December 1918. The fresh 47th regiment of the 12th division and the brigade of the 6th Ural division suffered heavy frostbite losses, since, participating in the battle for the first time, they lay for a long time under fire in the snow. Kappel was later accused of misusing them. Rather, the complete unpreparedness of the command staff for winter battles was to blame

              As the uv. D. Belash:
              Since August 14th, when the hands lying under shrapnel were digging shelters, fortification and tactics have developed incredibly. And then "the simplest tactical truths were perceived as a revelation." In the 18th, “trenches and fortifications were not built. The largest that was dug by a hole to protect the shoulders and head, for the most part lay open ”, in the 19th“ our trenches were built extremely remotely ”and in the 20th already on Perekop it was the same. Artillery pulls up and openly shoots at close range, forgetting just everything. Intelligence is such that even in the 18th, the Reds attack suddenly, despite the fact that their plans and radio were read freely. And a constant refrain: “But if the hand of the red machine gunner / gunner didn’t flinch, we would all remain there.”

              In short, the impression is that the experience of 4 years of the Great War with White with the outbreak of the Civil War simply fizzled out.

              And about the "Red Army defeated the Entente forces" ... in order to remove from its territory the only member of the Entente who really wanted to fight (Japan), it was necessary to sign onerous concession agreements for the Japanese to extract resources from the Soviet Far East.
              Quote: Was Mammoth
              Again, the illiterate Red Army hoisted the Victory flag in Berlin, smashing the world's most disciplined army. How did you manage?

              A lot of blood. In war, unlike in peacetime, an unprepared commander and soldier do not continue their service with an unsatisfactory grade (because "there are no others"), but lie in a mass grave after the first unsuccessful battle. Others are taking their place. And so on until the backbone of surviving experienced commanders and fighters capable of teaching replenishment is formed. War is a tough teacher. Natural selection at its best.
              As for literacy ... uv. M. Svirin wrote that by the middle of the war, a draftee with 7 classes in artillery had a direct road to the battery commanders.

              And how the army fought in fact is best shown by collections of combat documents. In which the orders of 1941-1943 resemble copies from the charters - otherwise, apparently, it was not possible to bring their contents to the commanders.

              The orders of 1941 are generally horror-horror-horror: Commanders do not use their own artillery, they do not set tasks for it, and they fire corps artillery against groups of enemy fighters or even single soldiers.
              And the interaction with the tanks ... sending the T-34 alone at night to reconnaissance, forbid tank crews to repair tanks so that they would not be relocated to another place, take their infantry to the old trenches, leaving the tanks in the field without cover - this, alas, was the prose of the life of infantry commanders in the early years of the war.
    3. Uncle VasyaSayapin
      Uncle VasyaSayapin 29 December 2015 17: 45 New
      0
      Your father from the border came to Stalingrad and probably then to Germany. You are lucky with your father, and he with the officers. And my grandfather died in the 41st. Not the fact that he would confirm high professionalism. Seven education classes in 1939 - this is how now a diploma of a simple Russian university. You probably have the highest. And my father in childhood was only able to complete the seven-year plan - then paid education, (his father died in the 41st, whence the money). Your example is not characteristic. It proves nothing. Moreover, already at the end of the 41st the Germans learned to smash in the winter, and in the 43rd year already in the summer. At the end of the war, there was probably much more professionalism and discipline, which is confirmed by the statistics from the article. Kazakhs, too, at the end of the war began to call, despite their lack of knowledge of the language. Your father could talk about high professionalism at the end of the war, and not before it.
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 29 December 2015 18: 27 New
        0
        Quote: Uncle VasyaSayapin
        And my grandfather died in the 41st

        But, you are alive thanks to him. We are all indebted to the older generation.
        Four of my uncles died. And his father reached Yugoslavia. Chuikov gave him the first star in Stalingrad. After the war, he was given the opportunity to enter the academy. I passed it as an external student in a regular high school in three years and for exams at the academy. About Kazakhs - this is before the war. At the end of the war, I read at VO, on the contrary, they did not call. And about the officers too. The main burden in the education and training of soldiers was on sergeants. The officers did not even appear in the companies every day. They had their own training program. Father began to serve in a machine-gun company, "maxim".
  • semirek
    semirek 29 December 2015 08: 41 New
    +5
    It was believed that those elements of control of the mass of soldiers that were in the tsarist army --- were not suitable for the Red Army. The author did not in vain emphasize that the loss of discipline began on February 17, and after all the main factor in any army is non-commissioned officers (sergeanthood) , and the junior officers, the army is a living organism, they need to be controlled, you can’t build an army on familiarity, which was shown by the Second World War, a victory which was won not only due to the best weapons, the minds of generals, Russian ingenuity, but also due to strict discipline.
    1. IS-80
      IS-80 29 December 2015 09: 25 New
      +2
      Quote: semirek
      The author has not in vain emphasized that the loss of discipline began on February 17

      In vain. Remind me in what year they passed the Novogeorgiev Fortress, for example?
      1. kalibr
        29 December 2015 10: 05 New
        0
        And the fraternization at the front and the killing of officers began?
      2. V.ic
        V.ic 29 December 2015 11: 08 New
        +1
        Quote: IS-80
        In vain. Remind me in what year they passed the Novogeorgiev Fortress, for example?

        The surrender of the Novogeorgiev Fortress, what does it have to do with 1917? Do not be too wise, you must be wise in moderation.
        1. IS-80
          IS-80 29 December 2015 12: 00 New
          +1
          Quote: V.ic
          The surrender of the Novogeorgiev Fortress, what does it have to do with 1917? Do not be too wise, you must be wise in moderation.

          What are you talking about? For example, I wrote that the problems with discipline and morale were a little earlier than 1917.
  • saturn.mmm
    saturn.mmm 29 December 2015 09: 21 New
    +2
    Good article, thanks to the author.
  • Mr. Pip
    Mr. Pip 29 December 2015 10: 19 New
    +3
    This brilliant article clearly demonstrates that the State, and even more so the Army, cannot be built on "freedom, equality and brotherhood"!
    1. cap
      cap 29 December 2015 12: 58 New
      +2
      Quote: Mr. PIP
      This brilliant article clearly demonstrates that the State, and even more so the Army, cannot be built on "freedom, equality and brotherhood"!

      Until 1975, that is, before the appointment of D.F. Ustinov as Minister of Defense of the USSR (with great respect for his merits), in the combat units the private soldier saluted the sergeant for 5 steps according to the charter, not to mention senior officers. As the veterans withdrew from command posts discipline steadily declining. In recent history, he met with the facts that officers were in the city without hats, despite the fact that they allowed short sleeves and walking without a tie in the summer.
      The level of discipline depends on the sergeant to the general and vice versa.
      So it was and is. I hope so hi .
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 29 December 2015 10: 56 New
    +3
    For the article --- thanks, maybe I never thought about this at all, i.e. the topic of discipline --- so it has always been in the Army --- without question.
    I want to add about divorces and women of other classes. With all due respect to the author, I do not agree that the military wanted other options. Because a military man is a high status. At that time, marriage to a military could help the whole family of that girl survive. it’s just a vital necessity to marry a military man. There are separate touches on films. Again, a story on this topic of close people.
    So I declare with all responsibility --- women themselves flirted, taunted, glued themselves, built traps, tried in every way to marry a military man. At any price!
    1. kalibr
      29 December 2015 12: 18 New
      0
      And this is true! But about the change in social. status again, not I came up with. There was material about this in some historical magazine. I took only a fact. And so the number of links surpasses.
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 29 December 2015 16: 34 New
        -1
        I will continue the thought, just returned. Statistics in a historical magazine, but about men and women ... If the author is a man, then he was inspired, and if a woman, then she knows how it happens: she built a more cunning trap , lured. The door slammed shut and the classics of the genre: "It's not my fault! He came himself! And statistics in the journal to legitimize this trap! And so that no one would guess."
    2. Ivan Tartugai
      Ivan Tartugai 29 December 2015 16: 42 New
      0
      54-year-old Marshal of the Soviet Union Budyonny for the third time married a 19-year-old cousin of his second wife, who was serving her term at that time.
      The 42-year-old Marshal of the Soviet Union Blucher also married a third time, but already at the 17-year-old student of the Glafira Medical Institute.
      50-year-old Marshal of the Soviet Union Kulik also married for the third time to his daughter's 18-year-old girlfriend.
      With 24-year-old military doctor Galina Semenova, the future third official wife, Marshal of the Soviet Union Zhukov began a serious relationship, although she was 30 years younger than him. But they say George Konstantinovich captivated her green eyes.
      Enumerate marshals and generals daredevils on the female side can be a long time and a lot.
      I doubt that these girls "themselves flirted, sulky, glued, built traps, in every way solicited in order to marry a military man" in particular for the marshals. to survive". "At any price".
      All of the above Marshals of the Soviet Union were outstanding daredevils on the female side.
      And if they liked a woman, then they could not be stopped. Especially Marshal of Victory, Marshal of the Soviet Union Zhukov
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 29 December 2015 17: 09 New
        0
        I will not argue with you, dear Ivan. And in no case will I say anything about the personal life of the Great Soviet Military Chiefs, They entered the History of the Country of the Winner and will always be there! And I better read about their merits once again, otherwise I studied at a difficult time in school. I could add something to the account of your comment, but I won’t.
        1. Ivan Tartugai
          Ivan Tartugai 29 December 2015 18: 59 New
          0
          Your choice of a respected Reptiloid.
          If you want, then sports, do not want not sports.
          People enter history not only by their exploits and achievements, i.e. in parts. If they go down in history, then go in completely. So these marshals went down in history with their wives, children, mistresses, trophy junk, etc. The main thing is not to lie about them, i.e. they didn’t embellish, didn’t lick more than they deserved and didn’t denigrate, they didn’t dousy more than they deserve. Only the TRUTH both sweet and bitter.
          As the ancients used to say, “De mortuis aut verum, aut nihil,” that is, “About the dead or the truth, or nothing.”
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 29 December 2015 11: 12 New
    +2
    If in the IV quarter of 1940 there were 3669 incidents, then in the I quarter of 1941 it was already 4649, that is, there was an increase of 26,6%. As a result of emergency incidents in the army, 10 people went out of action, of which 048 were killed and 2921 wounded. In the I quarter of 7127, 1941 people went out of order, of which 3244 were killed and 945 wounded. The average number of killed and wounded was at the level of 2290–27 people a day, and in the first quarter of 28 there were already 1941 people (TsAMO - Central Archive of the Ministry of Defense, f. 36, op. 32, d. 11309, l. 26-245. ) It is clear that this indicates an increase in the intensity of combat training. But here is the conclusion that was drawn on the basis of these data and checks by the commission on the transfer of affairs of the People’s Commissariat of Defense of the USSR to Marshal of the Soviet Union K. E. Voroshilov to Marshal of the Soviet Union S. K. Timoshenko: “military discipline is not up to the mark and does not ensure the exact fulfillment of the tasks set by it combat missions "

    Ahem ... and what does the data for the fourth quarters of 4 and the first quarter of 1940 have to do with the transfer of cases from Voroshilov Timoshenko, which occurred in the 1nd quarter of 1941?

    The increase in incidents was explained simply: both at the meeting following the results of the SPF, and at the meeting following the results of 1940, it was repeatedly noted that the preparation should be conducted in a military manner. Instead of sitting in the PPD over boxes of sand, having a 12-hour workday with two "dead hours" for sleeping and 150 days off a year. smile
    In the memoirs of the pre-war years, the arrival of Tymoshenko is noted as "they began to screw up", "they drove like in war", "marches went with full gear."
  • Maegrom
    Maegrom 29 December 2015 12: 07 New
    +1
    "there was either primary education, or none at all" - correct
  • Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai 29 December 2015 15: 40 New
    0
    “But it helped badly. For example, despite the shooting of alarmists directly on the battlefield, 97 SD (South-Western Front) left the battlefield three times in a row from August 6 to 8, and lost up to 80% of its personnel and a large number of weapons and military equipment (TsAMO , f.221, op.1362, d.34, l.195). That is, this measure did not work! ”
    The 97th Infantry Division was one of the best in the Red Army.
    Formed in 1936.
    In 1939 she participated in the Polish campaign.
    In 1940 she participated in the Winter War.
    By June 22, 1941 she was well prepared and staffed.
    So, according to the results of the combat training of 1940 in KOVO, under the commander of the district, Army General Zhukov, she was recognized as the best division of the district. The division commander, Major General IS Sherstyuk, was even awarded the Order of the Red Banner, precisely for the success of the division, for the organization of combat, political training and the training of the division’s troops. In early 1941, he was transferred to the post of commandant of the UR.
    In the same 1940, the headquarters of the 97th division was rated as the most advanced compound headquarters in the entire Red Army and was awarded the challenge prize of the General Staff.
    The tragedy of the 97th rifle division is most likely in the mediocre or even treacherous leadership of the division, namely in the division commander, 41-year-old Colonel Zakharov Nikita Mikhailovich, chief of staff 40-year-old lieutenant colonel Khomich Alexander Iosifovich, military commissar regimental commissar Pavlov SP, who were shot other disciplinary measures, as they say "red-hot iron" disorganized the commanders and soldiers of the division.
    On the 6th day of the war, June 27, Colonel N. M. Zakharov, together with the chief of staff, lieutenant colonels A. I. Khomich, with the commander of the 233rd regiment, Lieutenant Colonel D. F. Mikhailov and accompanying servicemen, went to a new defense area to reconnoiter the area and have disappeared. There are no prisoners, no deaths, missing.
    And the division, which is already completely disorganized and does not believe its commanders, died in the Uman boiler in August 1941. When the soldiers and commanders do not have faith in the command of the division, everything will end only badly.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 29 December 2015 17: 17 New
      +1
      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
      The 97th Infantry Division was one of the best in the Red Army.
      Formed in 1936.
      In 1939 she participated in the Polish campaign.
      In 1940 she participated in the Winter War.
      By June 22, 1941 she was well prepared and staffed.
      So, according to the results of the combat training of 1940 in the KOVO, under the commander of the district, Army General Zhukov, she was recognized as the best division of the district. The division commander, Major General IS Sherstyuk, was even awarded the Order of the Red Banner, precisely for the success of the division, for the organization of combat, political training and the training of the division’s troops.

      And here is how the commission, which arrived to check armaments, estimated the level of training of 97 SD:
      In parts of the 97th rifle division, rifles manufactured in 1940, which were on hand for no more than 4 months, up to 29% are reduced to a state of rust in the barrel bore, machine guns "DP" manufactured in 1939, up to 14% also have deterioration of the barrel bores

      Almost a third of brand new rifles after 4 months in parts have rust in the barrel! Well, rifles, but 14% of rusty machine guns are already in no way ...
      And my favorite from the same act for 97 sd:
      The commanding staff of the units does not know the optical sight for the Maxim machine gun, the optical sight for the sniper rifle and other types of new types of weapons. Some of the company’s commanders do not know how to remove a bayonet from a rifle arr 1891 / 30g.
      The knowledge of the junior commanding staff is weak, but nevertheless, the weapons in the unit know better than the commanding staff.
      The knowledge of ordinary cadets is low.
      They do not know automatic weapons at all and are only able to carry rifles and pull the trigger. Extremely poor knowledge of the materiel of small arms and, in addition, the gunners do not know at all the names of the parts of the DP machine gun and revolver. Machine gunners do not know the name of the parts and the rules for disassembling the rifle. To the great shame and chagrin, the cadets of the regimental schools have little knowledge of small arms below the knowledge of the Red Army, and yet despite this they are graduated by junior commanders.
      There is no need to talk about the rules, cleaning weapons, and their inspection by younger commanders.
      This situation should be, since the commander, having no knowledge of small arms, cannot transfer them to his subordinates and demand knowledge from them when he himself does not know him.
      Cit. by Learn uv. Ulanova.

      Do not know how to do it yourself - teach another. This is to the question of the preparation of a junior command staff that has risen above.
      1. Was mammoth
        Was mammoth 29 December 2015 17: 59 New
        -1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        And my favorite from the same act for 97 sd:

        I especially liked the removal of the bayonet. It is such a difficult and difficult task that without integrals there is no way. And the commanders didn’t know about the wrench to Degtyarev.
        When his father left the encirclement, most of the fighters he was armed with captured weapons. How else did they manage to fight them? Probably used as shafts.
        1. kalibr
          29 December 2015 19: 49 New
          -3
          You know, dear, your humor is not funny. You do not know how the door opens in which archive, and you are trying to discuss clearly not on your own ground. I understand that you are a driver? Imagine what you would say with so many years of experience if I suddenly began to teach you how to press which pedal and how to ride? And even to argue with you ... Where you will send me is clear. And you will be in your right! Now let's turn the situation 180 degrees and ... don't be offended, but where should I send you? You write about your father with a seven-grade education, that he liked the level of commanders. Could he appreciate it? My students also like what I read to them, but they cannot adequately assess my level. And about the fathers. My adoptive father started wars with the rank of senior lieutenant on the Bialystok salient, before that he graduated from the intelligence school and even managed to work in Poland. He fought in Leningrad during the blockade, in the Polish tank brigade named after I. heroes of Westerplatte, the Romanian brigade them. Tudor Vladimirescu, and ended the war in 1949 as head of the special department of the Krakow military district and with the rank of colonel. Decorated with all the highest military orders of People's Poland and many Soviet ones. And he ... told me a lot of things in a completely different way. Absolutely! And what your father could know and what my father knew - things are different, right? I described part of his fate in the novel, LET'S DIE THE SAME UNDER MOSCOW OR A SWASTIK ON THE KREMLIN, where he was bred under the name Skvortsovsky. Now I have begun to work on a book entirely about him and it will be called like this: "Four crosses for the master of the Soviet officer." And we will also have archival data and excerpts from newspapers and his memoirs, which he managed to tell me.
          1. Was mammoth
            Was mammoth 29 December 2015 21: 42 New
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            Your humor is not funny. You do not know how the door to which archive opens, and you are trying to discuss clearly not on your own grounds. I understand that you are a driver?

            I'm not trying to humor on this subject. It’s sacrilegious. I’m even disgusted with the assumption that our people are so stupid that they can’t remove the bayonet from the rifle. Like a Papuan who first saw a tin can.
            I am even disgusted with the thought that our people have suffered such sacrifices in vain. Due to the fact that we are not disciplined and not educated. Yes, we are not as well-trained as the Germans, and not with such a standard of living. How many people in that war were killed in neutral in just simple hours. Every German had a wristwatch even then, and not every commander of us had an "onion". And, after all, this also applies to discipline. But our people had something that the Germans and all of Europe did not have. Your conclusions insult the memory of the people. And not in the first article.
            I'm not a driver, I'm an engineer. And I’m not even trying to say that I know facts more than a professional historian. But I can and try to think and compare what I know, you know, the profession compels, and to distinguish truth from falsification. And, using certain specific facts, you defame the memory of our people, including your father, making such "profound" conclusions.
            1. kalibr
              29 December 2015 22: 07 New
              -1
              In all your comments, the most important thing is "certain specific facts". Wonderful! I am glad that you no longer argue with this. Now let's move on to the philosophical categories of the singular and the general. That is - to what extent these facts were isolated, and how general, right? And something tells me that they were more general than isolated. Do you know why? And because then there was the 91st, right? Well, and then you yourself should be clear. I would advise you to gradually eradicate the lack of historical knowledge. There are such magazines as MOTHERLAND, HISTORY IN DETAILS, ISSUES OF HISTORY, HISTORY OF ILLUSTREYTID ... You will start at least with this. Otherwise, you behave like a child whose trick was taken away or who found out that instead of the Frost Case, the parents put gifts under the tree. And for yourself! That for many years they have been hanging noodles on your ears, and you were happy that "we are great, we are powerful, higher than the sun, more clouds." This is the truth and indigestion turns out ... the brain! Pushkin in Godunov was 100% right.
              1. Was mammoth
                Was mammoth 29 December 2015 22: 50 New
                +1
                Quote: kalibr
                I am glad that you are no longer arguing with this.

                I never argue with the facts. I argue with the wrong conclusions from the facts. In this case, with your findings.
                Quote: kalibr
                But because then there was the 91st, right?

                And that's why the former "communist" "saw the light".
                The death of the USSR was laid not under Khrushchev, nor under Brezhnev, nor even under Gobachev. The mine was laid under Stalin, during the rapid growth of the power of the Soviet Union. As strange as it sounds. Exactly when the party top was given additional benefits instead of additional responsibilities. And, precisely in the 30s. And the disintegration of the "adherent" was one of the reasons for the repressions in 37. Further more. You are a historian, you can easily find how much lunch cost under Brezhnev for a simple locksmith. And, have you tried, say, find out the cost of lunch in the same HOZ of the Council of Ministers? Remember the slogans under which Yeltsin was striving for power. If you don’t remember, fighting privileges. And then privatization "happened" - a privilege for the "elite". Here is a view of history.
                What do you have against the communist idea as such? You betrayed her, didn't you? Or were they initially "attached"?
                1. kalibr
                  30 December 2015 08: 58 New
                  -3
                  I know all this! I myself dined in the regional committee canteens and was surprised at the cheapness there. And ideas are chosen according to knowledge, right? At first you know one thing - it seems beautiful. Then he tasted - g ... and what to hold on to? Out of principle? Chosen out of ignorance, but for life? Even an engineer should understand this, huh? And do not rush with the pretentious words "betrayed", "attached" ... All this is nonsense! The main thing is information and actions based on it. There is relevant information - you can "betray" everything and everyone as you like! There is no time, you know, it happens to achieve universal insight.
                  And about the communist idea ... this is nonsense! Read the first communist, Tommaso Campanella. His "City of the Sun". You wouldn't want to live there first!
                  Although the man was devoted to the idea to the end. For 48 hours, the Inquisition tortured him on the stake with the torture of velja - "vigilance" (well, it is clear that sitting on a stake cannot sleep!), And he never confessed to anything. But what does this have to do with science?
                  And the last one. If you do not argue with the facts. The archive of MO facts that I brought more at times. And I already wrote to you, if I had lived in Podolsk, I would have collected everything and calculated everything. But there is no physical opportunity!
                  1. Was mammoth
                    Was mammoth 30 December 2015 11: 38 New
                    0
                    Quote: kalibr
                    And about the communist idea ... this is nonsense! You read the first communist Tommaso Campanella

                    To complete the picture of a brighter future, the image of Nagulnov would also be suitable. And when did you believe in capitalism, a person who previously had access to classified information? Is Yeltsin exactly under the ban of the CPSU? And how do you feel about the beliefs of your father, was wrong?
                    Someone drinks cognac and says that it stinks of bugs, while someone crushes bugs and says that it smells of cognac. So you manipulate the facts in the article.
                    1. kalibr
                      30 December 2015 12: 26 New
                      -2
                      And here you are already asking interesting questions to which you will receive comprehensive answers. There will be an article - it has already been written about my supervisor, Professor Medvedev. There will just be about "believed" and about classified information. And my father's beliefs ... oh that's even more interesting. I wrote to him back in 88 that everything would soon collapse, He did not believe. I told him where the information came from and what time frame. I didn't believe it either! 91st said "You're right"! That's all! And again, do not rush with words whose meaning you do not understand. Manipulation is a distortion of reality. Where is this distortion in the article? For each given fact there is a link to the archive. You can order cases and check. Or are there some generalizing conclusions, so to speak, of a comprehensive scale? There is only one conclusion: the study of archival data, stone unturned, does not leave Western statements about raped German women. In my opinion, this is more than enough for today. After all, no one has done this conclusively. And I did! Or do you argue according to the principle, the worse the facts, the worse for them? Somehow you talk poorly. I wrote to you about the magazines? Read, educate yourself. Reasoning without knowledge is harmful!
                      And the last thing: if everything was fine with discipline, you would not need an 227 order! Or is it Stalin who gave it out of harm?
                      1. Was mammoth
                        Was mammoth 30 December 2015 13: 07 New
                        0
                        Quote: kalibr
                        And again, do not rush with words of meaning that you do not understand.

                        Quote: kalibr
                        And I did!

                        Quote: kalibr
                        Reasoning without knowledge is harmful!

                        Quote: kalibr
                        Where in the article is this distortion?

                        Yes, re-read the comments. At least the first. The country is fighting for culture, literacy, and the red commanders are dulling year after year before the war!
                        How can a wretched engineer care about lofty matters? Demagoguery is the lot of the "elite".
                        Quote: kalibr
                        And the last thing: if everything was fine with discipline, you would not need an 227 order! Or is it Stalin who gave it out of harm?

                        Oh well! "And the little chest just opens!"
                      2. Lekov L
                        Lekov L 30 December 2015 13: 31 New
                        -2
                        Dear Caliber, good afternoon and happy holidays!
                        Well, do not you start in a dispute with a person who has strong convictions and even more faith in certain ideals.
                        Because this is your discussion between the good and the best.
                        And both of you are right each based on your own experience and historical knowledge. Width of coverage at you and your opponent, dear Was mammoth different, but you, as a scientist, cannot deny that yours is also not comprehensive.
                        Thanks for the article and a lot of additional information in the discussion.
                        PS And do not forget the aphorism about the two debaters .. smile
                        Regards, thanks again!
                      3. kalibr
                        30 December 2015 15: 51 New
                        -3
                        All the best to you in the New Year too, thank you for your congratulations! You are right about "don't start". It is a nasty teaching habit to "keep the student out of hand" until he understands everything to the last point. But you agree that you received a lot of additional information during the discussion. So there is still a certain meaning. I am killed by ignorance, in general, not the worst part of our society. The link to livejornel and TV broadcast is revered as "the queen of proof." People do not read elementary (and by the way) very interesting magazines, in which to publish an article you need to submit a bunch of links and not just links, but to primary sources. This is what I do not like and with this I am struggling to the best of my ability. I would like to discuss with people on the same level.
                        Good luck to you!
                      4. Was mammoth
                        Was mammoth 30 December 2015 18: 19 New
                        0
                        Quote: kalibr
                        Ignorance kills me

                        Quote: kalibr
                        I would like to discuss with people on the same level.

                        Does the nimbus not press you? Does it bother to read? Again. You make false conclusions on the true facts. Why? I guess. An old disease of a part of the Russian intelligentsia. But, the next grant of Soros is yours!
                        Yes, you are not lucky to be born in a country where people are stupid, not disciplined and ignorant. And the army is the same, to match the people.
                      5. kalibr
                        30 December 2015 18: 36 New
                        -1
                        We seem to have already finished, right? But are you all drawn to butting? The Soros grant program does not work in Russia now, you need to know this. Further, any grant of at least Soros, even of the RHF, is given for a specific case. This is either a study or a book. I have prepared those books, applications for grants from the Russian State Humanitarian Fund - I already wrote. So there’s nothing more to do here. I do not conduct sociological studies. This is information so that you know for sure, and not fantasize. I have already written everything else to you, I don’t see any reason to repeat myself. But you still find the article by Smirnov (I have a link to it in the text even with the pages!) And read. There are even more links to the MO archive ... And we all know that it was still 15 years ago.
  • Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai 29 December 2015 19: 31 New
    +1
    It happens, on the one hand, and the chest order to the division commander, Major General Sherstyuk, as for the best combat training in the division in the district, where the commander himself is Army General Zhukov, and the division headquarters is the best in the whole of the Red Army, and on the other hand at the same time, such a destructive act of disgusting combat training in the division. After such an act, the division commander should not be awarded the Order of the Red Banner, but a summons to the tribunal.
  • kalibr
    29 December 2015 19: 53 New
    -1
    Now they will write to you that you came up with all this to tarnish the invincible and legendary ...
  • Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai 30 December 2015 07: 08 New
    +2
    It turns out that on the Internet there are two opposing assessments of the combat training of the 97th Infantry Division before the Great Patriotic War.
    If you look at the track record of Major General Sherstyuk IG, you can note some strangeness of his career advancement, namely, that Sherstyuk was not promoted for exemplary service, and from the division commander they were appointed commandant of the Kovelsky UR, where there were two troops, there were only about one thousands of fighters and commanders. And it would seem that after the 97th rifle division, under the command of IS Sherstuk, became the best combat training unit in the KOVO, and the division headquarters was rated as the best headquarters in the entire Red Army and received a challenge prize from the General Staff of the Red Army, they should have to promote.
    The transfer of Major General Sherstyuk to the post of commandant of the Kovelsky UR is more similar to the removal from the post of division commander for the shortcomings in combat training listed in the act of combat readiness of the 97th Infantry Division that you presented.
  • zenion
    zenion 29 December 2015 19: 39 New
    +3
    From 1944 onwards, desertion was due to the fact that people from Ukraine were called up, as well as the desertion of 1941-42. How many deserted, what was scary. Only Russians and Jews did not run away.
  • Rubon
    Rubon 30 December 2015 03: 59 New
    +1
    I can add to the article, if you read the recollections of people who served in the army before the war, then this idea is noticeable, very many indicate that the nuts in the discipline did not start to be tightened long before 41 years old, many note the severity of the internal daily routine and service, slip comparisons what type is not the same as before.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 30 December 2015 11: 58 New
      +1
      After the Finnish War, the Kremlin realized that the matter was serious,
      You can’t throw in mass, quantity. Understood, however, it’s too late -
      the year before German aggression.
  • MrK
    MrK 5 October 2016 22: 48 New
    +1
    vladimirZ,
    Quote: vladimirZ
    You look like Western scribblers who set as their goal, as much as possible to denigrate Russia, the USSR, the Red Army


    Dear Vladimir. Who are you arguing with? With a former teacher of History of the CPSU, And today, the history of the SS. Changeling can not prove anything. Now it’s clear who prepared the students for the collapse of the USSR