Military Review

"Black box" Su-24. The dry residue ...

129



Online stumbled upon a wonderful analysis of the situation with the so-called "black box", shot down by the Turks Su-24made respected guardia_rojo. I can not lead. True, with some comments.
It’s just that some people have no idea how military equipment is developed and manufactured. In VT it is impossible in principle to “stick” something (an additional element, for example, a relay, a chip, a connector ...) without consequences, without going through the full chain of all the tests put - at the enterprise, related departments and organizations, LI, MVI or HI .

Some "especially gifted" suggest that for "rollback" / "cut" - everything is possible. This, to our happiness, is not always the case. All those who wish, as a rule, shine the "tribunal" - the consideration of the case of forgery, fraud by the board of the military tribunal, since the matter concerns the defense capability and state security of the country. Just like that, with a forgery, “kickback”, “budget cutting” - it’s impossible without consequences, too many people are busy, the case looks too much “textbook” and too many instances need to be passed. And any discrepancy between TK and TU, identified in the course of operation - will immediately reveal with the most dire consequences for the participants.

And what could have happened then that “even schoolchildren and sofa experts” point to the incompetence of the performers of the manufacturers of BUR (onboard recording devices)?

In this case, the magnetic carrier of the protected information was replaced with a solid-state one. So, there was a complete cycle of all the tests. Solid-state in reliability, in principle, higher than the "tape recorder" with a bunch of moving parts. Then what?

We look at the characteristics of Western recorders, for example, Honeywell allows for resistance to shock loads - 3600g, our - just 1000g
Most likely, this is the whole truth ... That is, if the registrar were to produce using the western element base (and single-board), perhaps, other results would have been obtained ...

On the other hand, the information collection system is not of critical importance for conducting a battle or performing a military mission aviation, therefore, we have, let us say so, a "secondary attitude" to them.


So, below I offer the analysis of guardia_rojo

The huge flask in which the solution was boiled News Runet, suddenly began to boil and foam from adding one gram of my note to it. The laws of social networks have shown themselves in all their fullness and beauty. Here and the angry exclamations of the cheers-patriots in the image of Vysotsky’s song “The elephant said without dismantling: It’s clear that there is a flood ...”, and the joyfully malevolent hissing of the foreign smerdyakovs “the crap again,” and the venomous glee of the Svidomo blogosphere ...

All this brew froze angrily, boiled with satisfaction, blew smoke, poured with fancy colors and, finally, the reaction passed into the final stage - precipitation. Blow off the foam, add the unnecessary, dry, and see if we got the crystals of truth in the process of this reaction. Especially because, as they say, "He called himself a cargo - get into the body." And it imposes on me some responsibilities for scoring.

In vain, evil tongues assert that one cannot find the truth in a dispute. The hard work of reading almost 2500 comments (and they still do not stop coming) gives the right to argue that the collective reason in the discussion is not so useless. Next, I will describe what emerged in the process of discussion, give the necessary explanations and clarifications on the technical and even political sides of this case. For a clearer explanation of the reasoning, I created the 3-D chip models and the PCB assembly.

"Black box" Su-24. The dry residue ...

Thanks to those comrades who led a meaningful discussion, suggested ideas and provided interesting data. I really appreciate their participation. Do not be offended if I do not call everyone by name.

1. Immediately dismiss idle speculation regarding the process of opening. Everything went fine, without any complaints. Who worked in the field of military production, he knows about the compound in the thread of screws with a countersunk head, because of which sometimes they have to be drilled, and that it is pointless to use a screwdriver with the slot. So the reasoning about manual labor, lightly tapping on screwdrivers and drilling - leave for your kitchen.

There are people whose fantasies can even envy Francois Rabelais. They, without a doubt, assert that the recorder's body was previously opened, the contents were taken out, and what we saw was inserted. These generally have no idea about the maintenance of working and operational documentation, by which you can check not only the date and place of manufacture, but also much more obscure stuff. And, in the presence of a supervisory board of third-party specialists, it’s impossible to perform such a fly from the word at all.

2. You can also partially remove the charges from the designers in that part, which concerns the use of plastic cases of memory chips. As comrades suggest, now really in black boxes of foreign planes (for example, Boeing) you can see similar executions of microcircuits.


This in itself does not please, but at least it does not give grounds to categorically blame our designers for allegedly choosing a household set.

3.Also there are absolutely no complaints about the design of the recorder body. They are well made, with a sufficient margin of resistance to external influences. This is obvious even to those who have not dealt with this technique.

4. Now about the unpleasant. And yet, how did you get so embarrassed? To begin with, I'll take the liberty to describe in general terms the process of designing this product.

I know in my practice of working with former defense enterprises that large factories were simply sawn by their heads into small firms that were located there, in the same premises with the same employees. Since the documentation sets were also assigned by these firms, this often made it possible to continue to produce products without lengthy approvals, a number of tests and other hemorrhoids, assumed in cases of development from scratch. To some, such acquired isolation and mobility made it possible to simply survive in the difficult conditions of bestial capitalism, someone just became this very "beast of capitalism" and took the opportunity to saw, pull away and fill their pockets. For the sake of fairness, it must be said that the main blow to the military commissar, of course, was inflicted by Yeltsin’s market reforms.

With the inevitability of a tsunami, formal separation further led to the degradation of the production base, to the loss of connections and specialists. In such a situation, one often had to deal with the fact that idle test benches, thermal chambers, etc., were often disassembled by the staff themselves in order to profit. Rare orders were tested as follows: “Well, we once tested this unit, the documentation has not changed, the technology has not changed ... well, okay”. Something was even gathering dust in warehouses from the Soviet era. Of course, not all enterprises produced products in this way. This is mainly about the fragments of the military, small private traders, who, even with all their desire, are not able to fork out for expensive testing equipment.

So, the following picture seems to me: the urgent modernization of avionics could not help but touch the flight recorders. In order not to reinvent the wheel, the manufacturer acted quite rationally: he made the iron according to a proven scheme and tried to attach a FLASH memory unit (or NAND, call it convenient for anyone).
Naturally, in their place I, first of all, would have looked at similar products of Western firms, since such chips would still have to be taken from them. And I would find out what exactly the "bourgeois" put in their black boxes. Further, I would find on the sites of reputable manufacturers the memory of the required volume, controllers and piping like DC / DC converters and signal levels, all this in HiRel performance, and would begin the development process.

But the quit came out in that, based on the specified container size, it was impossible to place all the chips on one board. And here, as the wits say, “the dog has rummaged”.


For example, in Boeing, the memory block is made by one board, which greatly simplified its location inside the container,

and our two-board construction required dances with tambourines. And if the Boeing board was enough just to enclose the shell of the damping compound, then we had to put the mounting rack. And, as a matter of fact, it turned out not a sandwich “damper-plate-damper”, but a fragile structure, fastened with racks.

5. If the vector of application of force were not directed perpendicular to the boards, then nothing of the kind would have happened. But what happened happened.


The use of such cases as TSOP-48, albeit in the HiRel version, should have caused the developer to desire with additional measures to maximize the stability of the structure to overloads. What, unfortunately, was not done.

What could be done? Pour the damping compound. Although this will inevitably cause problems when picking out chips from there in the event of an operation like this.

But it could also be strengthened by mechanical means: make a printed circuit board with a thickness of 2,5-3,0 mm, the belt at the mounting holes should not be as narrow as it was made, but wider - 3-4 mm. Since we see that thin belts simply broke. And install additional rack mounting in the center of the boards. Like this:


6. However, even with the destruction of the body of the chip, there is hope for data acquisition. If the crystals are not damaged, secondary welding of the leads is possible. That will give the ability to read the contents of memory. For clarity, what it is about, for example, a snapshot of the NEC memory chip, which shows the places where the leads are welded to the crystal.


7. Of course, there is a possibility that nothing will be restored. And even with such an annoying result, publicity is justified. So that no one has the right to accuse Russia of concealing flight data.

8. Now about the grin of marketability. The fact that the semiconductor equipment for military and space applications must be of the case - metal-ceramic, before it was obvious to any specialist. This “whim” is caused not only by mechanical strength, tightness, good heat dissipation, but also another important property of ceramics - its coefficient of thermal expansion is low and close to a silicon crystal. Due to this, when the temperature fluctuates from –60 to + 125 degrees Celsius, no mechanical stresses arise between the crystal and the substrate, and there are no tears from the crystal, as was observed during plastic packaging.

But time passes, and the market requires a reduction in value. If in the last century, Intel released such memory chips without sparing ceramics and gilding,

now the market is pushing such products into the realm of the cosmic sphere only. And in the avionics in the course went plastic shells. As you can see, sometimes this leads to unpredictable consequences. Although, here are the products of the company HiRel International Rectifier

it is still produced only in cermet and often with gilding. So the debate about whether cheap plastic will force out expensive gold-plated metal-ceramic remains open.

9. It is necessary to respond briefly to other technical questions. For example, on applications like "the microcircuits were destroyed by a high current pulse, and therefore their bodies were smashed." Must disappoint. First, there are obvious mechanical deformations of printed circuit boards and even interboard jumpers. Secondly, such "tricks" never do without traces of soot, burning of the tracks of printed circuit boards and characteristic damage to the plastic of the microcircuit cases. Nothing like this, we also do not observe. Here is what the PCB boards look like that were exposed to large currents (thanks to comrade iAlexEf for the photos found):

Claims that the boards were pulled out before this autopsy, hit with a hammer and stuck in back, do not stand up to scrutiny. For the same reason that I described in p. 1

Attempts to explain damage to a PP by a rocket explosion at first sight are legitimate. But when inspecting the PP container from the inside, it is immediately clear that no fragment could damage the boards. Also, due to the fact that the air-to-air rocket explodes a few meters from the side of the aircraft, the PC could not be damaged by its blast wave. The recorder is clearly "unsuccessfully" landed. He landed another side - PP and chips would remain intact.

In addition, I will say to those who are sure that the registrar board damaged a certain fragment from the rocket. In this case, the inner box with a hole would be immediately shown to all the cameras, all comments would be made, and we wouldn’t have to guess what was inside the carelessly discarded empty case.

10. And for dessert, a little social science. Market grimaces are whimsical in form and destructive in content. Especially in the performance of the domestic bourgeois class. There is a misconception that there are “good” businessmen and “bad” ones. My relatives, there are no separate “businessmen”, there is a capitalist class. And no matter how “good” the capitalist may be in words, in fact he will always defend the interests of his class, even if this class consists entirely of Chubais and Serdyukovs. This is an OBJECTIVE law. Hear? Objective!

I mean, regardless of the personality of the businessman, his character, virtues and occupation, he is forced to act in the interests of his class. There are no "good" entrepreneurs who make good products. Well, that is, there are entrepreneurs more or less honest. But no matter how honest an entrepreneur is, he objectively defends the interests of Chubais, however much he wants. He supports a system in which he does not want to go into power, does not want to fight not for life, but for death with representatives of his own class, just standing above him. He wants radicals like Bandera and Prosvirnin to do it for him, and he will only support them with donations and on the Internet, and will continue to “honestly” do his business.

No, guys, you either remove the cross, or wear shorts and do not disgrace with your Russian capitalism. Or - collectivism, or - individualism and imminent catastrophe. As in the West - will not. Never! The local bourgeois are no match for you. And the Motherland for them is not an empty sound, and the Hail on the Hill is worth something, and they are ready to gnaw the throat of their own, too presumptuous “fat cats”. You can't do it! You are looking for self-justification and someone who would do the dirty and hard work of clearing the ruling class from the destructive bourgeois for you. Well, those who will do it will get power for you. As it happened in Ukraine and in Libya. The Ukrainian bourgeois class, stupidly and eagerly wanting to demolish Yanukovych, in fact was the destroyer of his own country. And now these Ukrainian electronics engineers are sitting, interrupting from water to bread. Or they have long been dragged to Russia, to a place where you can still do something and live like a human being. But you, Russian engineers, will have nowhere to "wind"! Think about it at the moment when another attack of straydovism will be upon you!
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129 comments
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  1. MIKHALYCH1
    MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 08: 44
    -7
    There is a fact, a fact! And you need to answer that .. And the rest is chatter!
    1. Ami du peuple
      Ami du peuple 26 December 2015 08: 50
      44
      Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
      And the rest is chatter!

      This is not chatter, but an investigation of the whole complex of circumstances and reasons that led to the death of our aircraft. And if the Turks did not say to the whole world that it was their fighter that destroyed our board? What version would the investigation adhere to then? And then there’s such a jamb with a flight recorder ..
      The recorder clearly “failed” landed. He landed on the other side - the software and chips would have remained intact.

      Finally tin! It turns out that the CE should, when falling from a height of 10 km, fall in a certain way, so that the recorded information is guaranteed to be preserved.
      1. MIKHALYCH1
        MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 09: 33
        26 th
        Quote: Ami du peuple
        This is not chatter, but an investigation of the whole complex of circumstances and reasons that led to the death of our aircraft.

        The downed Boeing is being "investigated" .... The drying room was shot down, in theory, a nuclear strike on the Turks had to be inflicted (cruelly ... but what to do?)
        1. varov14
          varov14 26 December 2015 11: 01
          +1
          All to make a nuclear strike. Your key to a nuclear strike in the hands of a God-chosen tribe and brains too.
        2. Letun
          Letun 26 December 2015 11: 03
          34
          Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
          in theory, a nuclear attack on the Turks needed to be dealt (cruelly .. what to do?) Next time, the Tu-160 can be dunk ... (flew up to the border)!

          That's what it means for several generations to live without war. They write nonsense, and do not even understand this ...
          1. MIKHALYCH1
            MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 11: 20
            0
            Quote: Letun
            Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
            in theory, a nuclear attack on the Turks needed to be dealt (cruelly .. what to do?) Next time, the Tu-160 can be dunk ... (flew up to the border)!

            That's what it means for several generations to live without war. They write nonsense, and do not even understand this ...

            The war of the 90s tells you something ..? I don't want this anymore ... Do you remember the Cuban missile crisis? They were practically on the brink of war, but the West fulfilled the requirements of the USSR! The downed plane over Egypt, then our bomber (without cover) ... Checking? On Echo of Moscow they say exactly that (I always listen to these "poisonous snakes"))))) I understand everything perfectly! (especially after Chubais and Hodor's performance!) You can throw stones ...
            1. Letun
              Letun 26 December 2015 11: 54
              14
              Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
              The war of the 90s is saying something to you ..? I don't want this anymore ...

              No, you don’t want this, you want to reduce the planet’s population by a couple of billion people and plunge mankind into the Stone Age, you can’t react differently, otherwise they will consider us weaklings!
              Something when in the 50s, ours fought with the Americans in Korea, and the bill went to hundreds of shot down pilots, it never occurred to anyone to build an Armageddian, because the war ended 5 years ago, but today our forum troops are ready to throw nuclear bombs to the right and to the left. Did not think that the clave with your fingers then after that will not knock.
            2. free
              free 28 December 2015 16: 29
              +1
              Well, of course, you went too far with Yao, although the answer should be tougher!
        3. Forest
          Forest 26 December 2015 11: 53
          -1
          And let's fight the whole world, because almost all of us have done something. We will destroy the entire planet, so that everyone will surely get it.
      2. varov14
        varov14 26 December 2015 10: 55
        +9
        So the author writes that the recorder is badly done constructively, what are the questions for him.
        1. MIKHALYCH1
          MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 11: 42
          +1
          Quote: varov14
          So the author writes that the recorder is badly done constructively, what are the questions for him.

          I read such claims in the Air Force .. (in Tu = 160 they wrote the same) and Tipo Russia cannot control its combat aircraft ..! Such a conclusion in the Western media! These nits will "post" it for years ... Do you at least understand what they are pushing into our brains?
          Think guys before making conclusions ... (Now everything is very tricky, ...))) hi
        2. user
          user 28 December 2015 10: 51
          +5
          Well, that is, there are more or less honest entrepreneurs.


          Well, it’s always like that, they all have businessmen who love their homeland, and most importantly, they are all crystal-clear, but we have one. . . . (you can insert the words yourself).
          Everything is much simpler, we do not have a law restricting the trade allowance, so ours make such allowances (it seems that they want to earn on one sale for the rest of their lives), and I draw your attention to the fact that almost 100% are not manufacturers, but sellers. according to all investigations, well, at least in the public domain, the biggest margin is with sellers, they have even more profit than manufacturers. And most importantly, this legislation was written by the American regional committee at the time. If you do not believe, then read the news. Is it possible for us to have someone say that the price is not fair, or on the basis that you are a natural monopoly, certain conditions are set for you for the price of your product or service.
          After all, I specifically wrote about who wrote the constitution and laws for the Russian Federation, because the Papuans cannot write the right laws, or by writing their laws they suddenly inadvertently offend Western business.
          Around somewhere from these positions you need to look at the problems of our industry and economy.
      3. vo3
        vo3 27 December 2015 00: 38
        0
        This is not a flight recorder, it is another weapon system. Read my comment at the end.
      4. go21zd45few
        go21zd45few 28 December 2015 08: 11
        +8
        Well, we did a good investigation, made sure that the registration block did not give in to any criticism, and even showed our failure in the presence of foreign observers. The question is whether conclusions will be drawn on the reconstruction of B.R. U or everything will remain, and why the grabber was launched ,private
        capital, defense should be under state control
    2. Yarik
      Yarik 26 December 2015 10: 47
      0
      And tomatoes, for example? wassat
      1. Artyom
        Artyom 26 December 2015 11: 50
        +2
        our problem is the lag in the production of microcircuits, there is a memory of 3 gigabytes per eye! One modern flash drive would be enough!
        1. MIKHALYCH1
          MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 14: 33
          -2
          Quote: Artyom
          our problem is the lag in the production of microcircuits, there is a memory of 3 gigabytes per eye! One modern flash drive would be enough!

          Well, of course, "Russia needs to end .." Are there too little memory in our ICBMs? bully
    3. Denis Obukhov
      Denis Obukhov 26 December 2015 16: 29
      +7
      Any board, like any component, will fail if it receives mechanical damage. Comparison of plastic elements with metal-ceramic is unreasonable (none of them can withstand extreme loads). The presence of gilding - provides resistance to oxidation of the contacts. In the case of the use of moisture-proof coatings, it loses its meaning. The shockproof layout of the board inside the case + providing insulation that reduces mechanical damage, is a much more important aspect in solving such problems. Of course, the element base imposes its own corrections and it’s easier to arrange a couple of information storage chips than to sculpt 8 pieces. But circuit solutions that increase the reliability of equipment by duplicating important nodes - no one canceled. If equipment were developed in the USSR by such a technique (without duplicating elements), then I strongly doubt that the USSR would reach such heights in space exploration, etc.
      All this strongly resembles the modeling of a "hunchback", when anyhow, just to cut down the loot. The ill-conceived circuitry solutions, and not only in electronics, are simply off scale.
    4. major124
      major124 26 December 2015 16: 46
      0
      Not only "ON", but also FOR it
  2. Putinets
    Putinets 26 December 2015 08: 53
    0
    Explanatory article. Well done. But why pessimism at the end? From his unrecognized genius? Or maybe you just need to put on a cross and go to the place where everyone is welcome from Jew Valtsman to the last homeless person. And stop considering yourself the BEST SPECIALIST IN THE PLACE, where the evil Putin does not notice
    1. Russian jacket
      Russian jacket 26 December 2015 09: 20
      73
      This is not pessimism, but a statement of fact. Immutable. At work, I constantly argue with my colleagues about the need to go to the polls and don’t give a bribe to a traffic cop, and at least not to break the rules too clearly ... But for the majority, everything depends on Putin, even the size of the bribe to a traffic cop. In production, repair programs are cut, equipment breaks down ... But in Siberia, the city freezes if the thermal power plant stops at one time .... We overheat the boilers due to fistulas .... And at the end of the shareholders meeting, we still need 30 labor productivity percent raise. The insurance repair fund is taken from the chief engineer to Moscow ... And the casket just opens. Shareholders just need more money ...
      "There is no such crime, which would not be committed by the bourgeois, for 100 percent of the profit."
      1. sergeybulkin
        sergeybulkin 26 December 2015 12: 34
        16
        In production, repair programs are cut, equipment breaks down ...

        I looked at the photos of the boards of this registrar and ... Hurry takes! In which Chinese vocational school did they collect this ??? I have never seen anything like this in military equipment. There is some sort of rubbish design for a household washing machine. Those who invented this should be awarded the Order of the Stoop and cut down the forest for 10 years in Siberia. am
        And in order to pile such a particularly complex equipment is not necessary, you can rivet hundreds in the nearest garage. wassat
      2. T-73
        T-73 28 December 2015 15: 13
        +1
        Quote: Russian quilted jacket
        Insurance repair fund taken from chief engineer to Moscow

        Well, this is generally arrogance. Safety stock should always be. Let not the complete nomenclature, but not you put, not you and take. Our chief did not advertise it at all - it lies in the bins, and let it lie. He will pipe the pipes, the fittings after the audit, even in the workshop for boilers, but calm. And I didn’t remove the old pipes from the supports, of course, on a shift, to look for what goes where, but then you can always cut out the insert for a while)
    2. novobranets
      novobranets 26 December 2015 09: 30
      15
      The author is harsh, but why hide, he is right in almost everything.
      1. Kite
        Kite 26 December 2015 10: 15
        0
        Quote: novobranets
        He is right in almost everything.
        ?
        - Well, yes, the design is rather weak. But, such is its value to see, i.e. that information in similar situations. The bomber is down! This is not an accident, not a failure of systems, it is a deliberate attack, unforgivable rudeness, even if the plane struck a wing along the border of the state, which supposedly is also against Daesh militants.
        If there were a question of stability / resistance of an electronic device to overloads, then they would be performed accordingly, as is done in control systems and in projectile fuses.
        1. novobranets
          novobranets 26 December 2015 11: 07
          +5
          I agree with you, but ... if the plane was shot down in battle, during an attack, etc. And here you see what kind of porridge has brewed, and the testimony of the registrar would now be evidence of the provocation of the Turks. I must admit that a reliable QW is needed, it turns out, on a front-line bomber. I hope the designers will take this into account for the future.
          1. Kite
            Kite 26 December 2015 11: 46
            +2
            A bomber can fall on enemy territory, then all information must be completely destroyed. Or it should not be recorded, except for unimportant tertiary data (and what will the engine operation parameters give in this case? Codes of system commands, control commands, navigation - should definitely be absolutely protected from being opened by the enemy).
            1. novobranets
              novobranets 26 December 2015 12: 00
              0
              Quote: Kite
              A bomber can fall on enemy territory, then all information must be completely destroyed.

              Hmm I didn’t even think about it.
    3. Andrey Skokovsky
      Andrey Skokovsky 26 December 2015 11: 09
      11
      Quote: Putin
      Explanatory article. Well done. But why pessimism at the end? From his unrecognized genius? Or maybe you just need to put on a cross and go to the place where everyone is welcome from Jew Valtsman to the last homeless person. And stop considering yourself the BEST SPECIALIST IN THE PLACE, where the evil Putin does not notice

      and what is especially sensible you saw?
      some corners on the boards and other water about nothing, a person is trying to be both a narrow specialist in auto-registrars and an adviser on geopolitics

      the whole problem with the registrar is visible to any technically competent person in one single photo - huge and loose chips,
      it’s obvious that this is not an emergency recorder, but some kind of nonsense, and the question is why this nonsense appeared on our military equipment

      and personally, I have absolutely no doubt that our engineers can make a normal indestructible device
      1. Rus2012
        26 December 2015 11: 38
        +7
        Quote: Andrey Skokovsky
        it’s obvious that this is not an emergency recorder, but some kind of nonsense, and the question is why this nonsense appeared on our military equipment

        and personally, I have absolutely no doubt that our engineers can make a normal indestructible device

        Dear colleague, however, this is our secure registration unit. We read again -
        Honeywell allows shock resistance - 3600g, our - just 1000g
        Most likely, this is the whole truth ... That is, if the registrar were to produce using the western element base (and single-board), perhaps, other results would have been obtained ...


        This is the whole truth!
        If our developers had the necessary components (ERI in the first place), then and the military would set the appropriate requirements impact resistance, and Bow would have had similar western characteristics. You can't make candy out of shit. No way ...
        1. Andrey Skokovsky
          Andrey Skokovsky 26 December 2015 11: 52
          23
          Quote: Rus2012

          Dear colleague, nevertheless, this is our secure registration unit ... This is the whole truth!
          If our developers had the necessary components (ERI in the first place), then and the military would set the appropriate requirements impact resistance, and Bow would have had similar western characteristics. You can't make candy out of shit. No way ...

          and I don’t say that it’s not our registrar
          ours, but I can’t call it shockproof.

          as for the elementary base, then as a technician I can immediately offer you a solution, even on those huge chips that you see on the boards:
          take the textolite thicker and firmly paste the chip onto it, screw the aluminum screen on top to further increase the rigidity of the thin chip body,
          then around this structure in the PCB, we cut down so that when the board breaks, not a single crack passes through the memory chip, EVERYTHING ...

          I repeat the problem is not in the elementary base, but in the engineering performance of the device itself
          1. glasha3032
            glasha3032 26 December 2015 15: 50
            -2
            Yes, you can put them on an epoxy, they will stand tight.
            1. Aleksey_K
              Aleksey_K 27 December 2015 23: 07
              +1
              Quote: glasha3032
              Yes, you can put them on an epoxy, they will stand tight.

              In the video showing the opening of the box, the operator showed the indented bottom of the inner case. How many do not fill with epoxy or other material, if the blow concave the case, which broke the circuit boards with microcircuits, then the epoxy will not save, it is very easy to push through, because It is not impact resistant material. And in general, at least some of the coolest Western chip will be destroyed. As you will not understand, this squeezed inner case destroyed the boards. It is necessary to change the design of the case, for example, to make internal stiffening ribs, between which to place memory chips. It is necessary to change the metal of the cases of the black box to a more durable one and make it even thicker.
              1. glasha3032
                glasha3032 29 December 2015 00: 40
                -1
                The housing cover was not affected, the impact did not affect it. Having planted the chip on the epoxy, the design of the board will be strengthened. A number of microcircuits planted on the resin will work as a stiffener.
          2. midivan
            midivan 29 December 2015 03: 09
            +3
            Quote: Andrey Skokovsky
            as for the elementary base, how can a technician immediately offer you a solution,

            But can this registrar take root, say under the pilot's seat? Well, as an option, the pilot ejects, and with it this thing, after a while x the recorder detaches from the seat and throws out a small parachute, in this case it is not necessary to block the heavy-duty and heavy body, and the weight will be much less request
        2. Alexanast
          Alexanast 28 December 2015 14: 43
          +9
          In-IN we have so right now everything is done. And it should be as before: "the military would have set the appropriate requirements," and only "our developers would have found the necessary components"

          As was the case when developing the first MANPADS.
          State defense order: there must be a pipe weighing so that a soldier can carry it, if he drops it, so that it does not break, and so that planes are shot down.
          The developers scratched their turnip, figured it out, and so what kind of green blue garbage, and ... made "Arrow".
      2. MIKHALYCH1
        MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 11: 49
        +2
        Quote: Andrey Skokovsky
        and personally, I have absolutely no doubt that our engineers can make a normal indestructible device

        Ours can do it .... Definitely! hi
      3. Kite
        Kite 26 December 2015 13: 08
        -1
        Quote: Andrey Skokovsky
        why this nonsense appeared on our military equipment

        - probably because, after the flight, the pilot may have comments on the operation of the aircraft systems. In order to make it easier for technicians to understand the reasons for the remarks, their validity, and the quickest elimination of the causes, an auxiliary device has been installed, which cyclically rewrites the memory with the parameters of the aircraft systems. The plane returned and there are comments - then a detailed analysis of diagnostic signals. Shot down - then the details of the visual and radio monitoring services. If the aircraft is military (they shoot at it), then what should be the armored capsule for the most reliable protection of the auxiliary device? Here, the DVR in your car, is it not installed in your armored cap? And when did you have to look through all the records?
      4. limmor
        limmor 28 December 2015 13: 45
        +1
        An article, with an analysis of the nuances, about this black box is in YaPa. It is written correctly enough for the layman. I recommend that you read: http://www.yaplakal.com/forum2/topic1276893.html?hl=%D1%87%D1%91%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%
        8B%D0%B9+%D1%8F%D1%89%D0%B8%D0%BA+%D1%81%D1%83+24
    4. zulusuluz
      zulusuluz 26 December 2015 11: 43
      +1
      Rather, the author does not call himself the best, but says that in order to get a good salary, you need to work yourself. And not wait for the manna from heaven ... I, unfortunately, almost every day come across something like this: the law is bad, then the government, then the authorities. And to understand that these figures in "your" work for some reason do not want to do anything ... As a result, instead of trying to do something, all that remains is whining.
      1. MIKHALYCH1
        MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 12: 54
        -3
        Quote: zulusuluz
        Rather, the author does not call himself the best, but says that in order to get a good salary, you need to work yourself. And not wait for the manna from heaven ... I, unfortunately, almost every day come across something like this: the law is bad, then the government, then the authorities. And to understand that these figures in "your" work for some reason do not want to do anything ... As a result, instead of trying to do something, all that remains is whining.

        Here I am about this "Putin's regime needs to be brought down ..?" Well done on the death of our pilot they earn points .... "They don't like microcircuits ..." Well damn it ... more mats! angry
  3. parafoiler
    parafoiler 26 December 2015 08: 53
    +2
    Professionally! In 10! Neither reduce nor add ..
    1. AlexAl
      AlexAl 27 December 2015 12: 32
      +2
      And what's professional?
      The author claims that if in our drive, the internal content is filled with a compound, then there will be a problem of tampering and access to the board, but right away the article gives 2 photos of the honeywell drive where the board was flooded with copound, or rather two at least, and there is no problem with tampering showed up. The author offers ears with a larger belt to make a smart decision, the board will remain intact (possibly), and the microcircuits will receive additional energy at the kink, since there is nothing more to quench this energy. He brings some kind of 3d model - it's cool and supposedly modern, but why are they in the article? Modern cad systems themselves build an assembly of resistor chip models, etc. I understand that if the author conducted a study in the same cad system, for example (solidworks simulstion, or ansys or comsol, this is not an advertisement) on the impact of acceleration deceleration and brought the simulation results and concluded what to do, and yes it’s not a beautiful assembly of a 3d model top of excellence.
      Two boards interfere with the author, and that - there’s in the kosnopole or Katilov (such a projectile) there are probably more of them and they shoot and the product performs the task. Or the same shot for zak-57 derivation, there is more than one in the shot of the boards.
      It’s just that the manufacturer did as it happened and will do how it happened for longer. Everything is beautiful on paper and there’s nothing to cling to, and the author has pink glasses - responsibility, criminal. They made fun of haha, they will find the switchman if there is a pointer and pass some installer, they didn’t put foam rubber between the boards.
      1. a housewife
        a housewife 28 December 2015 15: 16
        +2
        The installer will be planted? In honor of what. There is OTC. There should be a military reception, but I don’t know what is now, I worked as a controller for a very long time. But - and the controller will accept the product, if it corresponds to the drawing and technology. And here everything can be anything. Changes, additions, replacements, and we get the product much worse, but everything is legal. One is laid initially, they put another, then everyone takes their heads.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  4. dchegrinec
    dchegrinec 26 December 2015 08: 56
    21
    The version that this product was not assembled so carefully from the point of view of tests and state checks seems quite plausible, as well as the supply of illegal spare parts for aircraft, as well as the speedy production of other important equipment in our country that does not concern avionics. the collapse, cut of state enterprises is visible everywhere. Electrical equipment in the energy sector suffers exactly the same sores, because in the Soviet Union any introduction of new equipment was fraught with rigorous tests, and now the company simply blurs the analogs or replaces something at its discretion without thinking about the consequences .And in such industries it is fraught!
    1. Rus2012
      26 December 2015 10: 41
      +2
      Quote: dchegrinec
      and the supply of illegal spare parts for airplanes, as well as the speedy production of other important equipment in our country that is not related to avionics. This, after the collapse, sawing up state enterprises is seen everywhere. Electrical equipment in the energy sector suffers exactly the same sores, because in the USSR the introduction of new technology was fraught with rigorous tests, and now the company simply blunders analogues or replacing something at its discretion without thinking about the consequences.


      In your post, dear colleague, there are two different conditions -
      -"supply of illegal spare parts for aircraft" - This is 100% crime and is being prosecuted.
      - "the company just blurs out analogs or replacing something at its discretion without thinking about the consequences", - here m. something else is "buried". A firm can "blurt out" anything, only a system / set of measures of norms and control, - should close such "crafts" a ticket to life. But it's no secret that "norm-control", starting with SNIP, has been strongly "ushat" in the direction of relief in recent decades. We look, they built everything around, where during the years of Soviet power they were not even allowed to build (due to "solarization", proximity to power lines, etc. and so on ...)!
      1. glasha3032
        glasha3032 26 December 2015 16: 02
        +1
        But the SNIPs do not work in the aviation industry, but there is a military reception, there all the inscriptions on the radio elements are checked with the drawings under the magnifying glass. Yes, they even look at the year of issue on the passports and if before the expiration date is less than six months - they may not accept it.
    2. vladimir_krm
      vladimir_krm 26 December 2015 11: 09
      +6
      No one canceled the criminal code. And the military acceptance too. Do not confuse consumer goods (and energy, too, alas, I have worked in energy for 12 years) from private firms with military orders.

      Moreover, military representatives are such a sinecure in the army that they hold on to their positions very firmly. It is better to "serve" in a decent city, at least in a major position and go to the service as if to work, than to leave as a battalion commander somewhere to a point in Siberia, where both the wife and the children have nowhere to go, and no entertainment, except barracks :)

      About the article. The author worked hard, but missed a number of important details. Say the time. Su-24 was developed in the 60s, in service - from the 75th. This registrar is clearly replaced by revision, solid-state registrars then did not even know. So, first of all, you need to find out in which year this registrar was developed? And what memory chips in the performance for the military at that time were available on the world market?

      Yes, the questions are uncomfortable, it is difficult to answer, but blaming someone without answering them is not comme il faut. And from the current point of view, to watch someone at the author's blog say that he has a flash drive in his mobile phone better than all these mikruhs, a lot of mind is not necessary ...
      1. AlexAl
        AlexAl 27 December 2015 21: 05
        +1
        I’ll tell the military representative monographically what design decisions are made in the product, what materials are present there, the quality of one or another solution, compliance with GOST, etc. The most important thing is that there would be an appropriate piece of paper covering this or that issue or solution. If everything is OK by paper, then the military representative will go into a series of good products, and if not OK, write a piece of paper that would be OK and see point one.
    3. glasha3032
      glasha3032 26 December 2015 15: 57
      +2
      The product was assembled carefully, it was tested at least 4 times only in the Quality Control Department and at least 3 times by the customer’s representative (military representative). If there were deviations in the assembly from TU. then the product would immediately be wrapped. Nobody will risk pushing non-standard, the case may be jurisdictional in the new realities.
      1. AlexAl
        AlexAl 27 December 2015 21: 10
        +1
        And now answer for yourself that in that section there is something that the OTC could complain about? OTK checks the correctness of assembly according to the RKD, to it this connection to the lantern is there a compound there or not, it passes to the lantern above the boards or not, if the designer painted it on a piece of paper, then someone needs this !!!
        1. a housewife
          a housewife 28 December 2015 15: 30
          0
          First, the Quality Control Department checks the components at the input (selectively, since they passed the test at the manufacturer). Then the harness is checked separately. Then soldering the circuit board. Then the assembly board. Then assembly of product units. Then the complete assembly (visually), then the parameters are checked, if necessary - adjustment. Then shaking, then checking again. Then surrenders to a military acceptance.
          1. glasha3032
            glasha3032 29 December 2015 00: 48
            0
            The board is a separate product and is first checked separately. In the quality control department, the product is checked more than once - first for "-60", then for "+60", then in normal climatic conditions (+20) Before delivery to the quality control department, the assembler must check 4 checks and further check ПЗ (-, + GCC)
        2. glasha3032
          glasha3032 29 December 2015 01: 09
          0
          You want to say that the designer developed this important block from the bulldozer and nobody checked the correctness of the design and no one conducted complex tests? Yes, this (especially in aviation!) Can not be! And about checking the quality control department - so after all, someone doubts - is everything done correctly, are all the screws screwed in and the wires are soldered?
          1. AlexAl
            AlexAl 29 December 2015 09: 35
            0
            That is what I said and am saying. The developer at this time can decide for himself what standards to comply with. It’s up to you to decide how to test the product, all the more so in the GOST the testing procedure is not always clearly described or it was misunderstood. Those who carried out may not in all positions apply the shock load and draw up a protocol. They can conduct tests correctly, and then optimize the design. What does the tester check if the product cd matches or not? No, he doesn’t check, he doesn’t care what shakes so much.
            If this product corresponded to 1000g in all positions, then there was definitely no harness above the boards, otherwise this harness would break the boards during the test. There is no need to be this span in the forehead to see this is obvious. And the bundles do not lead over the boards in a good way, they are driven along the sides of the boards and lead from the edge of the board. This is also obvious. 1000g is not a joke, there are 40 grams of microcircuit and when hit on 1000g, these 40 become 40 kg. Now tell me, if they do not break on these boards with their legs, how do they break? In automotive electronics, those that control units of each chip are glued to the board with glue, so that the effect of vibration is reduced, but here?
  5. iliitchitch
    iliitchitch 26 December 2015 09: 02
    +9
    You just need to draw conclusions. Without many words .
  6. Same lech
    Same lech 26 December 2015 09: 12
    +8
    And no matter how “good” the capitalist may be in words, in fact, he will always defend the interests of his class, even if this class consists entirely of Chubais and Serdyukov. This is an OBJECTIVE law. Do you hear? Objective!


    It is impossible to let capitalists into vital branches of the state ... where the lives of thousands of people are at stake for a businessman who thinks only of making 300 percent profit ...
    In the service sector, light industry, food, science, please open the way to capital there, it adapts very quickly and gives results, but in the energy, space, nuclear and military industries, the stakes are too high and the state must steer here.
    Although there are exceptions, such as with the magnificent ORSIS-500 sniper rifles created by private traders.
    1. Skiff_spb
      Skiff_spb 26 December 2015 10: 01
      0
      Taki should disagree.
      About space, at least. Look at Ilona Mask. He did it! Return the first step back, and not on paper, but in real life!

      Of course, this does not mean that everyone needs to switch to private space exploration, but he nevertheless proved that it is possible.

      And you can minus it, but I'm extremely glad that they did it. Tesla bullshit, but with the first step - this is truly a landmark achievement.
      1. Rus2012
        26 December 2015 10: 56
        +7
        Quote: Skiff_spb
        here with the first step - this is truly a landmark achievement.

        "return" in this case is a vapor of pure water and profanation!
        3,14ndosam such a decision has already led in the ass - two dead shuttle.

        On the technical side, this is -
        1. a significant deterioration in the parameters of the "withdrawal of useful loads", because it is necessary to "gently land" the steps for reuse. This requires a complex of systems and devices (with mass) on board. Which, in turn, have parameters for failure - also reducing the reliability of the entire launch complex.
        2. Even "gently grounded" during fault detection is likely to write / write - will be rejected. Those. reliability is not guaranteed.
        3. Everything that "lands" - must have a multiple resource for repeated launches - that means it costs more, more massive. And as a result, o5 deterioration in performance characteristics ...
      2. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 26 December 2015 11: 02
        +1
        Quote: Skiff_spb
        Taki should disagree. About space, at least. Look at Ilona Mask. He did it! Return the first step back, and not on paper, but in real life!

        Exceptions only confirm the rules.

        Facts and logic are stubborn things.
        1. Capitalists can make individual successful products. This is a fact that only stubborn political informants can argue with.
        2. The capitalist system with the rights of moneybags, the right to intellectual property, read intellect, unshakable property and transfer of property at will, that is, by inheritance, is a dead end of development. which will necessarily lose to a society with a collective world outlook in production processes, with planned development and natural selection of leaders of all ranks. This all applies to the ideologies of socialism.
        3. To this day, Istria has shown that mankind itself can be confused in solving simple problems, approximately how triplets in arithmetic get confused with control ones in integrals.
        As a result, capitalists are influenced by individuals. By "betraying" the interests of the class, they create temporary collectives with strong internal collectivism and work according to a well-grounded work plan, while the communists arrange competitions similar to natural selection, who is smarter, more worthy, redder, .... more consistent with the rules of bourgeois democracy.
        4. Our people are educated, talented, strong and patient. Our historical experience is the most voluminous and the most advanced. But the thinker, Stalin, is no longer a thinker for everyone, and Lenin wrote his last works almost 100 years ago. You can still recall Plekhanov ... and many of those who are trying to pass us off today as the great minds of mankind, such as Ilyin or Berdyaev, but whom our people have not read in bulk, will not read, and practically will not even name them.
        There will be no thinker of national composition - there will be no understandable uniting national idea and superstate.
        I perceive the situation emotionally. Sometimes I argue with myself, especially when incredible events such as KRYMNASH take place. I rejoice at the success of NEWS, but every time I stumble over the President. A country in which only the President is the guarantor of national unity cannot be silina.
        I would be much calmer if VV Putin openly and very specifically named successors to his affairs, at least in the amount of 20-30 people. And if this list is supported by the people, and the leaders from the list are involved in the successes of the Motherland, then maybe the formation of a truly socially healthy democratic society will begin.
        Only in this case it will be possible to talk about the need for frequent turnover of managers, the prevalence of judicial law ...

        In the meantime, only next to V.V. Putin looks good a small number of people from the power block, and none of the industrial, economic or social ...

        One thing reassures me: when I see what is happening with the "leaders" of the Western world, I see a complete well ...
        1. Per se.
          Per se. 26 December 2015 14: 18
          +2
          Quote: Sergey S.
          In the meantime, only next to V.V. Putin looks good a small number of people from the power block, and none of the industrial, economic or social ...
          The whole question is whether everything depends on Putin, remembering who actually ruled the country under Yeltsin. It is unlikely that these powerful behind-the-scenes rulers have now left the country. Probably, not everything is so simple, although I would like to see not only a possible successor, but also Putin's "apostles" in general. In the meantime, we have what we have (Ok Google ...).
      3. Kite
        Kite 26 December 2015 11: 39
        +4
        Just remember that automatic research vehicles (ours and American ones) were sent to the moon and returned to Earth long ago. Just keep in mind that to plant there and return it back means the maximum economy of lifting the load, the accuracy of the calculations. Accuracy is shown, if it was 40 years ago, then why not become more accessible now? And about the economy whether to mention on the show performance? The task of demonstrating the vertical descent "to the starting point" of the first stage (its metal structures) on its own jet thrust can be justified only by the fact that the author dreams of participating in the Martian development. Well, well done, now repeat it with a load, with a supply of fuel, and returning from orbit. Maybe you can think of something more successful. So I would tell him if he were our compatriot. And the Americans - let them at least build a trampoline.
        1. iliitchitch
          iliitchitch 26 December 2015 16: 23
          -1
          In the process, they will soon become world leaders in trampoline construction. Let's hit the road .
      4. bunta
        bunta 28 December 2015 15: 48
        +3
        Quote: Skiff_spb
        Look at Ilona Mask.

        He launched a rocket with a launch mass of 540t to output the 2t payload. For comparison, Zenith starting mass 470t displays 15tons.

        Let's applaud the Mask.
        1. denis02135
          denis02135 28 December 2015 20: 56
          0
          Dear bunta

          Zenit rocket? !!!!? yes this is the damned zhidobanderovtsy you talk about what, disgrace our homeland, Protons and Unions are all ours. smile Let's better compare with the Hangar.

          SpaceX formally announced the Falcon-9 launch vehicle on September 8, 2005, and its first launch on June 4, 2010.

          In March 1997, the leadership of GKNPTs im. MV Khrunicheva proposed to radically revise the 1995 version of the Angara launch vehicle. first launch July 9, 2014

          Quote: bunta
          He launched a rocket with a launch mass of 540t

          He launched a rocket with his own money, try to do better and we will applaud you. hi
          1. bunta
            bunta 28 December 2015 21: 02
            +2
            Quote: denis02135
            He launched a rocket with his own money


            Smoke the source code - for money allocated by Congress lobbied by a little bit of McCain.
            PS Zenith is not a liquid bander. This is the USSR.
  7. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 26 December 2015 09: 14
    25
    The author kind of reveals what many are embarrassed to say openly. But in our country it’s always like this - until the thunder strikes, the man will not cross himself. And now, both in Russia and in Kazakhstan, now, since the 90s, there is a kind of mixture of different forms of social structure - both capitalism and socialism, and liberalism, and democracy, and authoritarianism. EVERYTHING is, and mixed in different proportions and applied depending on the moral qualities of different individuals, located on different steps of this society - and officials. and law enforcement officers, humanitarian and ordinary hard workers and lazy people. Only everyone calls this mixture as it suits him and based on what a person currently has from this system. Only some have the courage to live and act on moral, human principles, while others simply take advantage of the moment based on their ability to snatch a piece.
    Because we have all this happening. And in the western world we will never live, because capitalism implies the most severe individualism. When you are nobody. And all your skills and abilities are measured in money. The capitalist will never save jobs just because there is no work anywhere else or because you have children. He always cares about his money. We have completely different approaches and an attempt to take the best from there is not always justified, because in our conditions and with our mentality this often leads to negative results. Therefore, such articles arise when the author reveals the imperfection of our realities on a small example of the safety of an ordinary microcircuit.
    You don't even need to go far. Let me give you an example of Belarus. No matter how much Lukashenka is criticized, some of his ideas are nothing for the country's development. BUT! But the question is how they are done. Import substitution: they buy foreign TVs, disassemble and put the imported internals into their boxes. We get our own type and report back. Did he mean it? No. But the possibilities and desires of those who were given the tasks found application in the execution in a simpler way. Fortunately, the imperfection of the system allows you to do this. And start planting - immediately "dyktatar". I am already silent about Russia - the country is huge and there is a lot of maneuvers for manipulation!
    We need a firm hand that will act in the toughest way, including executions. Because the Western system, where a person is exchanged for money, doesn’t get accustomed to us and will only continue to support this mixture of imperfection when it comes out that brings money but kills defense . We are different and we need other conditions in order to create and develop.
    Personally, my opinion hi
    1. Ami du peuple
      Ami du peuple 26 December 2015 09: 22
      +2
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Personally, my opinion

      Sensibly painted, namesake! My regards hi
      1. Russian jacket
        Russian jacket 26 December 2015 09: 36
        +3
        All on the shelves and distinctly. Exactly. Respect. hi
    2. novobranets
      novobranets 26 December 2015 09: 42
      +5
      Quote: Rurikovich
      .Because the Western system, where the person is replaced by money, does not take root with us and will only continue to support this mixture of imperfection

      Exactly. The West is actively trying to impose its own way of thinking on us, and if they succeed, they have won. Think back to the 90s. Glory to the Creator that now the people shook themselves and looked around - "Father, what is this going on?" There is a real chance to restore the status of Great Russia and the Russian people, just not to miss this chance. The author is right, no one will do it for us.
  8. Aleksander
    Aleksander 26 December 2015 09: 18
    +4
    . Either collectivism or individualism and imminent catastrophe


    And how does the West manage to produce products whose quality level is the standard? Collective collectivists, they probably (according to the author). yes The capitalist first of all thinks about his POCKETS, but not about your class and Chubais. That's the effect on the pocket and wonders of quality are achieved all over the world, where there is appropriate CONTROL and customer requirements.
    1. 34 region
      34 region 26 December 2015 09: 52
      +8
      And what are the wonders of quality? Home appliance repairs are inundated with this western appliance. The car service is also full of foreign cars. Not so high-quality foreign equipment. For product quality, GOSTs are required, not TU. Sausage, condensed milk, cheese are in the store by the shaft. And what to consider cheese or sausage? Although the packaging says cheese.
      1. varov14
        varov14 26 December 2015 11: 28
        +3
        Here you are wrong, the quality of their products guarantees. timely disposal of their products. A 3 year warranty is written - all that matters. This is not for you in the USSR, so that the refrigerator works for 20 years and another 10 years after repair. Landfills should be constantly replenished, thank God there is still apparently enough free land.
    2. varov14
      varov14 26 December 2015 11: 15
      0
      So we have the same controllers in Chubais and the controllers of controllers, they are also a vicious circle. How to open?
  9. cap
    cap 26 December 2015 09: 25
    +2
    "10. And for dessert a little social science. Market grimaces are bizarre in form and destructive in content. Especially in the performance of the domestic bourgeois class. There is a delusion that there are" good "businessmen and" bad. "My dear ones, there are no separate" businessmen ", there are class of capitalists. And no matter how “good” capitalist may be in words, in fact he will always defend the interests of his class, even if this class consists entirely of Chubais and Serdyukovs. This is an OBJECTIVE law. Hear? Objective! "
    I do not agree !!!Social science was simplified to the formula "stole-drank-sat", and even then not in everything. As for the defense industry, and the figures who got there in different ways, they should always see the red brick of the Kremlin wall in front of my eyes,so as not to be distracted from your main goal.
    State defense. soldier
    1. 34 region
      34 region 26 December 2015 09: 57
      +4
      The author of the article is right. Capitalism is the right of one. And he will try only for himself. How to build roads for everyone, I’ll buy one, another SUV. Kamaz destroy roads, I introduce a tax. Although the roads are being destroyed where heavy trucks do not drive and where pedestrians walk. But greed does not stop even the execution, an example is China.
    2. varov14
      varov14 26 December 2015 11: 36
      +1
      Well ridiculed, you believe something? We have for every law, they immediately write a bunch of by-laws, but if this does not help, then lawyers will find a bunch of workarounds from other laws and acts. Solid partisan paths are a national treasure.
  10. Zomanus
    Zomanus 26 December 2015 09: 27
    +8
    Article plus. From the side, the board and assembly look at the level of the last century.
    PVC cambrics, which I still remember from school, when I climbed military dumps of equipment.
    The racks are also full farm. There, even belts are not needed thicker,
    just put the washers between the board and the rack.
    And a piece of elastic material between the boards.
    Or, if there is a destruction of the printed circuit board,
    let this destruction be in predetermined places.
    Like a smartphone, when a rib falls, the cover and battery fly off,
    which prevents board destruction.
    Well, I think that conclusions will be made, CH will go to remake.
    1. novobranets
      novobranets 26 December 2015 09: 54
      +9
      Quote: Zomanus
      And a piece of elastic material between the boards.

      It seems to be simple, but not very, the insert will greatly degrade the heat sink. The washers also will not help, upon impact, it will either break the fiberglass or bend the racks, the result will be the same. Here we need another design, pre-calculated for the ROM used. As previously done, the board is flooded with silicone damping compound, with heat sink inserts. In general, at first glance I did not like this CHE. Indeed some kind of collective farm. I myself deal with equipment at work and I can say that even civilian, medical, wearable equipment is made more reliably, even externally.
      1. Silhouette
        Silhouette 26 December 2015 11: 04
        +5
        Quote: novobranets
        Indeed some kind of collective farm. I myself deal with equipment at work and I can say that even civilian, medical, wearable equipment is made more reliably, even externally.



        This is the whole point. The memory cards were not flooded with a compound for the reason that they are cheap, unreliable and can fail and it will then be impossible to replace them. It is necessary to change the entire unit or the entire device. Here on the cheap and burned. But there is no element base.
        1. novobranets
          novobranets 26 December 2015 11: 14
          +1
          Quote: Silhouette
          But there is no element base.

          That's it. With all the assurances of the desire to abandon imp. components, I did not hear that at least someone would be engaged in the element base. Although the achievements from the Soviet era were not bad.
  11. aleks. 1986
    aleks. 1986 26 December 2015 09: 28
    -2
    Let the author study the construction of the lifeguard Igor Belousov, and in particular the rescue equipment itself, and maybe he will notice what is possible for the rollback / cut. But as it turns out everything.
  12. doework
    doework 26 December 2015 09: 34
    +4
    Thanks for the interesting and useful article! Many questions on the results of the autopsy received answers.
    The final part of the article did not give birth to optimism at heart, unfortunately .. precisely because the author is right.
    Only here the main route is not clear: either "state corporations" with ineffective management and theft, or - private "firms", which cannot always be called enterprises ... Most likely, we will take the first path - super-holdings .. so at least some control is possible
    1. lukewarm
      lukewarm 26 December 2015 10: 20
      +2
      Quote: doework
      state corporations "with ineffective management and theft,

      wink In the Internet, there has long been a beautiful article on state corporations. Its essence boiled down to one thing - from the state there is money and the word GOS. And so this is the same business with all its grimaces. The current is a little more disgusting, because the private bourgeois does not rub at himself, and the bourgeois from the state corporation is just the same. fellow So it’s incorrect to talk about private shops and state-owned enterprises as antipodes with some completely different control system.
      1. varov14
        varov14 26 December 2015 11: 53
        0
        The difference seems to be insignificant for quality - one steals and the other cuts costs. but the first one can be planted if desired and made to contain oneself with pens. Labor makes a person especially rude and hard.
  13. Irokez
    Irokez 26 December 2015 09: 36
    +4
    When the plane is clearly shot down, the notorious Black Box is useless if there is evidence and even a video.
    The Black Box is necessary for monitoring the post-flight state of the aircraft and checking the flight mission (partially) and the flight mode with the removal of all sorts of parameters every second.
    In this case, the conversation about reliability is, but not about the political problem and the lack of evidence that the Turks shot down the plane. But in view of the fact that the SU-24 is already gradually being decommissioned and replaced by the SU-34, it is impractical to make the latest protected units under them. It just works out its SU-24 resource and everything is at rest.
    I don’t see a big problem in undermining the country's defense, but there’s a great and wonderful lesson for the future.
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 26 December 2015 09: 51
      +3
      The point here is to finally prove our correctness to the "partners" on the flight parameters. Otherwise, they seem to be in limbo - everything seems to be clear, but a little bit lacking to finally believe. And so they use it - the Turks, like rams, repeat theirs that we crossed ours ...
      And so the data would serve as a kick in the ass, which could upset this balance in views.
      And so most likely the European experts with their Washington Host exhaled. After all, the further game to the public no longer passes, not too convincingly against the background of our actions in Syria soldier hi
      1. Irokez
        Irokez 26 December 2015 10: 35
        +2
        Quote: Rurikovich
        The point here is to finally prove to the "partners" our correctness on the flight parameters.

        Yes, it will never turn out to prove completely that you are right, because you can always provide some kind of argument that is doubted and again you need proof. It's like - "You can find fault with the post." And then they will find fault: - "Did the pilots piloted in a sober state?" And prove that they were sober. And so on and so forth, it is simply impossible to prove everything 100%, especially if the reverse side of the fool is included.
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 26 December 2015 10: 41
          +1
          Quote: Irokez
          Yes, it will never turn out to prove completely right, for you can always provide some kind of argument in doubt and again you need proof.

          This is the hypocrisy of Western policy. Even the very Turks felt this in their own skin, digesting various promises and newly put forward conditions for EU accession
          "Only I put forward the conditions only for me to decide how to interpret this or that" - that's how it sounds.
          Therefore, in this case, you need to listen less to them to do what you need to do, cutting off any attempts to interpret and act on their patterns with your actions hi
      2. Rus2012
        26 December 2015 11: 56
        0
        Quote: Rurikovich
        Here the point is to finally prove to the "partners" our correctness on the flight parameters

        ... there is another obvious need - "openness and comparability of flight accident investigations", referring to the Donetsk b-777 and the missing.

        The seeds lay in the "prepared soil" -
        British expert: The work of the Russian Federation with the black box of the downed Su-24 is competent and professional
        The work of the Russian side with the black box of the Su-24 bomber shot down by the Turkish Air Force was carried out professionally. This was announced by the Director General of Gates Aviation Limited Emma Farrant following the results of the participation of the representative of this British company in the autopsy of the flight recorder in the Russian Federation.
        “As for how the investigation was conducted, it seems very competent, professional and completely transparent,” said Farrant to RIA Novosti.

        Original news RT in Russian:
        https://russian.rt.com/article/138845
      3. varov14
        varov14 26 December 2015 12: 02
        +1
        And the Americans are not particularly worried and are not justified. The usual answer and "psaki" - everything. They are not going to look clean and fluffy, and they are not tearfully stuffed into partners, and they write out sanctions, therefore, and crush them. You take up the tug late like a loach.
  14. MIKHALYCH1
    MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 09: 40
    -1
    Quote: Irokez
    When the plane is clearly shot down, the notorious Black Box is useless if there is evidence and even a video.

    That's right .... Everything else is bullshit! hiThe bomber's surviving navigator ... Doesn’t it count anymore? Oh liberals would you scratch your tongue fool
    1. Irokez
      Irokez 26 December 2015 10: 38
      0
      Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
      That's right .... Everything else is bullshit! The bomber's surviving navigator ... Doesn’t it count anymore? Oh liberals would you scratch your tongue

      Honestly, I did not understand your writing. Sorry, I didn’t eat it.
      1. MIKHALYCH1
        MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 12: 07
        -2
        Quote: Irokez
        Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
        That's right .... Everything else is bullshit! The bomber's surviving navigator ... Doesn’t it count anymore? Oh liberals would you scratch your tongue

        Honestly, I did not understand your writing. Sorry, I didn’t eat it.

        I wrote above .. And once again I explain ..
        This article is for whiners.
        Like "ok Google .." Here in Russia they cannot do anything normally, even on the Tu-160 there are such microcircuits .... And about the deceased commander, scum are silent ... And the fact that the navigator was saved? Doesn't mean anything to you? (Are you considering microcircuits in a magnifying glass?)))) You humiliate Russia once again .. well, well
        1. Irokez
          Irokez 26 December 2015 12: 56
          0
          Mikhalych1 You definitely tasted something even on an avatar (avatar is the master’s inner world). Where did I speak poorly about people and especially about pilots and those who saved them? Where did I talk about microcircuits under a magnifying glass under consideration and humiliate Russia? And where did I generally speak poorly about our troops and humiliate our image?
          Read my primary post and find it there, and if something seems to you or seems to be about humiliation, then enough, wake up.
          If you are a patriot, then this is also an extreme, just like a patriot, and extremes are known to be dangerous. It’s better to just be a patriot (middle ground) because it’s not a patriot - it’s a hidden traitor or my secret, but a patriot - it’s a fanatic who has no brains and can easily be redirected to harm.
          Be a patriot, change your negative image, turn on your brains - this is for all super patriots.
          1. MIKHALYCH1
            MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 13: 04
            0
            Quote: Irokez
            Mikhalych1 You definitely tasted something even on an avatar (avatar is the master’s inner world). Where did I speak poorly about people and especially about pilots and those who saved them? Where did I talk about microcircuits under a magnifying glass under consideration and humiliate Russia? And where did I generally speak poorly about our troops and humiliate our image?
            Read my primary post and find it there, and if something seems to you or seems to be about humiliation, then enough, wake up.
            If you are a patriot, then this is also an extreme, just like a patriot, and extremes are known to be dangerous. It’s better to just be a patriot (middle ground) because it’s not a patriot - it’s a hidden traitor or my secret, but a patriot - it’s a fanatic who has no brains and can easily be redirected to harm.
            Be a patriot, change your negative image, turn on your brains - this is for all super patriots.

            Well, first of all, I don't need to "poke"! Do you understand?
            Secondly, you are rude to me!
            Thirdly ... PATRIOTISM It is in the blood and in the brain too!
            (minus you mine from the heart !!) Changed his mind! drinks
            1. Irokez
              Irokez 26 December 2015 13: 40
              0
              Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
              Well, first of all, I don't need to "poke"! Do you understand?
              Secondly, you are rude to me!
              Thirdly ... PATRIOTISM It is in the blood and in the brain too!
              (minus you mine from the heart !!) Changed his mind!

              When you turn to a friend or acquaintance, you are always on YOU, and when you turn to an enemy or a stranger, it is usually YOU. As you say amiable. And this is not rudeness, but a view from the side (the avatar and posts suggest).
              Minus to me is YOUR emotions, not from the heart.
              Regarding beer (a sign of reconciliation), I approve, but I don’t drink beer (it’s harmful for a man to take harmonics), but sometimes I taste wine or my own tincture, which is why I advise YOU (not YOU’ll notice). )))
              1. MIKHALYCH1
                MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 14: 13
                +1
                Quote: Irokez
                Quote: MIKHALYCHXNNX
                Well, first of all, I don't need to "poke"! Do you understand?
                Secondly, you are rude to me!
                Thirdly ... PATRIOTISM It is in the blood and in the brain too!
                (minus you mine from the heart !!) Changed his mind!

                When you turn to a friend or acquaintance, you are always on YOU, and when you turn to an enemy or a stranger, it is usually YOU. As you say amiable. And this is not rudeness, but a view from the side (the avatar and posts suggest).
                Minus to me is YOUR emotions, not from the heart.
                Regarding beer (a sign of reconciliation), I approve, but I don’t drink beer (it’s harmful for a man to take harmonics), but sometimes I taste wine or my own tincture, which is why I advise YOU (not YOU’ll notice). )))

                All topic is closed ..
  15. olimpiada15
    olimpiada15 26 December 2015 09: 43
    +4
    "Either collectivism or individualism and inevitable disaster."
    Author 1000+
    Applause! You can’t say better. In a few words, all the problems of modern Russia and the way out.
    By the way, the only way to survive the country in the modern world.
  16. askort154
    askort154 26 December 2015 09: 52
    +4
    Someone from military officials who were not quite competent in aviation strongly framed the Minister of Defense and the President, staging a show with their direct participation.
    It was clear to knowledgeable people from the outset that decoding of the "black box", even a completely serviceable one, would not answer the question - was there a violation of the border in this case or not.
    The Turkish prosecution talked about 17 seconds of the Su-24 flight over Turkish territory.
    According to the flight parameters that this "black box" registers, it is, in principle, impossible to confirm or deny this accusation due to the shortness of the time of the event. The show failed disgracefully, exposing our wretchedness in modern electronics.
    Shoigu should be kicked in the ass to the one who "dragged" him and the president into this show.
    1. 11 black
      11 black 26 December 2015 10: 03
      +4
      Quote: askort154
      The Turkish prosecution talked about 17 seconds of the Su-24 flight over Turkish territory.

      And about ten warnings made to our pilots during 5 minutes of the flight - we would have revealed this lie exactly
      1. askort154
        askort154 26 December 2015 11: 59
        +2
        11 black .... And about ten warnings made to our pilots during 5 minutes of the flight - we would have revealed this lie precisely.

        Here, definitely. Turks have no fragments of radio exchange between
        their services and the crew of the Su-24. If this were the case, then all the Western media would have "bothered the public" in another
        Russian aggression. The Turks, obviously, were preparing for a provocation, but could not make a fake phraseology of radio exchange
        with the crew of the Su-24, which clearly pierced.
    2. varov14
      varov14 26 December 2015 12: 12
      0
      The president was simply framed for the role of "psaki". Washington is far from stupid and understands the role of "well, I will clarify" very well - the public is in a stupor.
  17. HollyGremlin
    HollyGremlin 26 December 2015 10: 07
    0
    At first glance, it seemed to me that the damage is not critical. Maybe I'm missing something, but the board is a piece of PCB, restoring tracks, contacts are all nonsense. The main destruction, in my opinion, is here (see the picture), and it is not very clear what caused it (obviously not because the racks broke off)
    By the way, part of the film with such damage can definitely be restored; with the boards, such a focus will not work.
    1. MIKHALYCH1
      MIKHALYCH1 26 December 2015 11: 30
      0
      Quote: HollyGremlin
      At first glance, it seemed to me that the damage is not critical. Maybe I'm missing something, but the board is a piece of PCB, restoring tracks, contacts are all nonsense. The main destruction, in my opinion, is here (see the picture), and it is not very clear what caused it (obviously not because the racks broke off)
      By the way, part of the film with such damage can definitely be restored; with the boards, such a focus will not work.

      It starts .... I'll tell you honestly the FSB hit it with a hammer ..))) I goof off the Internet! Shot down our plane! What kind of black boxes and wrecked boards are there ... The commander died (was shot in the air) They saved the navigator and our marine died and maybe more ... What are you doing? You liberalists really sniffed at nightclubs of cocaine and scribble articles ..?
      Nobody knows much about the shot down .... Well, you bastards!
      1. HollyGremlin
        HollyGremlin 26 December 2015 11: 54
        +2
        Why sort out what happened to the black box? And then, that he saves lives: testers, pilots and even civilian passengers. If the recorder fulfilled his task, we would have one more argument against Turkey. Also call you names (
      2. Irokez
        Irokez 26 December 2015 13: 05
        +2
        Mikhalych1 Well, exactly today you look like a troll and a liberal propagandist who brings everything to emotions and instead of calmly discussing the black box SU-24, you start pushing another topic and especially on emotions. Everything is clear with people and this is a fact and no one mocks them, but what are you delivering the snot here and are engaged in whining emotional.
        If there is a topic, then express your thoughts on the topic, but about the liberals, leave comments in your brain.
        You need to tie it with a spark, and even more so with grass.
  18. Avas2006
    Avas2006 26 December 2015 10: 08
    0
    Good, comprehensive, objective article. I especially note the author’s extended view of the problem. For points 4 and 10, special thanks.
  19. maestro123
    maestro123 26 December 2015 10: 14
    10
    On the net I came across a wonderful analysis of the situation with the so-called "black box" shot down by the Turks of the Su-24, made by the respected guardia_rojo. I can't help but quote. True, with some remarks.


    Here it is described in more detail: I am ashamed of domestic electronics! Disgraced all over the world ...

    _http: //kado4nikov.livejournal.com/370169.html

    While serving in the army, after firing, I dug from the sand the remnants of electronics from ATGMs. As a future engineer, I was very curious to find out on which element base these nodes are assembled and how the installation is carried out. See:
    It is made in 1986! Double-sided printed circuit boards made of fiberglass, microcircuits of the 134, 140, 142 series in metal-ceramic cases, MLT resistors, KM-6 capacitors, K53-1 electrolytic tantalum capacitors, filled with a transparent compound ... (s)
    And this is the state of the boards after the missile hits the target! The boards were not in a protected case, like an on-board drive - their task is only to deliver a charge to the target, and then ... burn with fire! Do not burn out.







  20. mamont5
    mamont5 26 December 2015 10: 14
    0
    It’s a pity, of course, that recorders will not help, but ... a lesson for the future.
  21. lukewarm
    lukewarm 26 December 2015 10: 14
    +3
    the technical details are very interesting, as the author evokes sympathy and civic position. I would put 100 pluses, especially for the last paragraph. Without touching the article directly. AND WHAT DOES THE DECISIONANT RECOGNIZE REALLY GIVE? Publicity is clear - look, we are not hiding anything. But here is the very decryption that we want to show the world? That the plane was shot down, but not crashed by itself? So it is so clearly and universally recognized. What did he not fly to Turkey? I don’t know if there is a GLONASS coordinate channel there. If there is, then it is understandable, if not ... My experience with CH is very modest. A cadet of an aviation school at a laboratory decrypted a piece of a SARPP record. There were different parameters, height, speed, roll, angle of attack, pitch, engine speed, temperature, and something else. But there were no coordinates. So why all this garden?
    1. jaroff
      jaroff 26 December 2015 10: 43
      +1
      Knowing the take-off course and the coordinates of the aerodrome strip, then painstakingly, secondly, using the parameters of speed, altitude and change of course, the flight path is built. And then it is superimposed on the terrain map and the flight path through Turkey is determined or not.
      1. Irokez
        Irokez 26 December 2015 13: 17
        +2
        Quote: zharyoff
        Knowing the take-off course and the coordinates of the aerodrome strip, then painstakingly, every second, using the parameters of speed, altitude and change of course, the flight path is built.

        Most likely this can be done in the first minutes of the flight, and then the growing errors all blur and this is just a theory. Factors such as wind, air exhaustion, mass of the aircraft and others negate such a method of trajectory.
    2. Irokez
      Irokez 26 December 2015 13: 13
      0
      Quote: unwillingly
      There were different parameters, height, speed, roll, angle of attack, pitch, engine speed, temperature, and something else. But there were no coordinates. So why all this garden?

      Here I am about the same. To prove that the plane was in Turkey or not is impossible on this box. Well, if only by time, altitude and speed to determine (approximately) where the plane could be located before the rocket hit it, that is, the approximate point of the imaginary flight over Turkish territory and nothing more. And by the way, yes, if there is a channel for recording coordinates by GLONAS or GPC, then yes it is real, but who says there is this channel for recording or not?
  22. lopvlad
    lopvlad 26 December 2015 10: 35
    +4
    And, in fact, it turned out not a "damper-board-damper" sandwich, but a fragile structure fastened by racks

    Naturally. Therefore, it was unnecessary for us to hammer on someone else's experience and fill our fragile structure inside the inner metal capsule with a damping monolithic composition too to get a "damper-board-damper-board-damper". This would really help save the "brains" of the device from destruction when exposed to shock wave.

    If the force vector were not directed perpendicular to the boards, then nothing like this would have happened

    and if the box fell from a height of one meter, then there would be no scratches on the outer case.
    Any thing is created for certain operating conditions. The purpose of the "black box" design is to ensure the safety of the data contained in it when the aircraft falls to the ground from the entire range of altitudes for which the aircraft is designed.

    And then it turns out some shame. The recently blown up Airbus A321 over Egypt crashed from a height of 10 kilometers and the black box data is readable and ours military SU-24 crashed from less than 6 kilometers and the data from the black box is not readable.

    Why the hell is there a black box needed if data cannot be read from it when dropped?
    1. Platonich
      Platonich 26 December 2015 10: 52
      +1
      Fill the ball design of the box with a simple mounting foam and everything would be intact !!! And then some garbage is fenced!
  23. Sunseich
    Sunseich 26 December 2015 10: 45
    +4
    greetings to all
    I came to this site precisely because of my professional interest in the development and manufacture of reliable electronic devices (although I am self-taught in electronics and programming, but this is what I earn my bread for). It is generally accepted that the most reliable is on the "military". So I came to learn some more ... :)

    I look at these photos and I want to cry!
    racks - ge! YES, I understand that with the dimensions of the ambush, but do not fix the harnesses, do not put stiffeners under the bottom board and between them a couple of inserts (at least plastic or through-through racks - this is the height of stupidity for both the body designer and the board designer!

    And how did this product go through vibration tests? Really this has never "got out" and the varnish has not broken? About cambric it’s in vain, although I would put heat shrink tubes for reliability (although I don’t know how these will behave at -50C ... + 125C.
    microchips in the DIP package amused, although their mechanical and thermal reliability is great! BUT they are also in plastic! here it strained and sad ...
  24. sevtrash
    sevtrash 26 December 2015 10: 48
    0
    It seems that all this refers to "We wanted the best - it turned out as always." But no, worse, there are "fat cats", "wild capitalists" for whom the quality of products is in last place, because they bought officials of the highest rank and together "make money" - they cut the budget. Where everything will lead - it is understandable. Yes, only these creatures - "businessmen" and bureaucrats - do not care, grabbed and grabbed and dumped abroad, not forgetting to grab some secrets to buy their immunity.
    Or maybe some progressive dictator will come (there were such in history) and create an economic miracle - but there are no such, it is not visible, and time wasted when the prices for oil and gases were higher. What remains is a revolution, when "... the lower classes will not be able to live in the old way, and the upper classes will not manage ..." with unpredictable / predictable consequences for the country's integrity.
    Are there people at the top who think about the future of the country through the position of the primacy of the economy? Maybe there is, but they do not rule the ball.
    1. Irokez
      Irokez 26 December 2015 13: 22
      0
      Quote: sevtrash
      Are there people at the top who think about the future of the country through the position of the primacy of the economy?

      Do not worry - there is.
  25. Streich
    Streich 26 December 2015 11: 26
    +1
    The article is correct and competent. I wanted a few words about military products. Have any of you tried to unsolder and remove the microcircuit from a product that is completely ready for military use?
    1) It is practically impossible, only to break it out. Since everything is flooded with such a layer of compound (such as epoxy resin), so long as you remove the protection half of the legs are already torn.
    2) Has anyone seen the product on a vibration stand or after a climate test? There is no living place, but it works. In general, electronic military products can not be repaired - only a replacement. Fast and guaranteed quality.
    3) As for the flight recorder on a combat aircraft. The author casually mentioned that this element is not so necessary in combat conditions, so it was done as it was. Well, no one will understand during the war what happened there. The pilot is alive, the task is completed, and everything else is not necessary lyrics.
    4) In this case, pure politics and technology have nothing to do with it.
    Respect to the author!
    1. Rus2012
      26 December 2015 11: 50
      +2
      Quote: Streich
      In general, electronic military products can not be repaired - only a replacement.

      ...Not certainly in that way. There are concepts: "maintainability", "one-time execution" or "non-repairable".
      If there is a need for repair, then such a requirement is posed. Moreover, even heat-resistant foam is "washed off" at the same time ...
    2. glasha3032
      glasha3032 26 December 2015 16: 31
      +2
      Microchips are soldered in skillful hands easily and naturally, without any breaks, there are devices for this. The compound is carefully poked with tweezers to the PCB - for a long, dreary. But solvable. On the vibration stand, the product is fixed with rubber gaskets for the clamps and after vibration it looks normal (the main thing is to tighten the clamps-clamps tightly). Climatic ones - wipe off any traces of dried drops with a cloth. Electronic products are REPAIRABLE, about THIS in the product passport it is registered - 2 total repairs (as a rule).
  26. NordUral
    NordUral 26 December 2015 12: 00
    0
    In unison with the author I will repeat many times what I said on VO - it's time to tie us with such capitalism. Only socialism or planned state capitalism will lead our country out of the peak in which we strive into the abyss. True, the liberals are trying to drive into our heads that we are on the rise. Do not believe - lie!
    And according to the article - thanks to the author for a thorough and competent analysis!
  27. Great-grandfather of Zeus
    Great-grandfather of Zeus 26 December 2015 12: 04
    +1
    In the article I didn’t like one moment - "all the same, we will have to buy microcircuits from the West"! But where is our microelectronics ??? when will our processors according to the 14nm process technology appear? our phones, smartphones, TVs ... ????
    1. Irokez
      Irokez 26 December 2015 13: 25
      +1
      Quote: Great-grandfather of Zeus
      when will our processors for the 14nm process technology appear? we have a wagon of smart heads and talented hands, but why aren’t ours ours, completely ours, phones, smartphones, TVs ... ????

      Who are you asking these questions to yourself? Or Chubais at the corporate party?
      There is such a philosophical thought: - "The one who asked the question already knows the answer to it." So answer yourself.
  28. Sunseich
    Sunseich 26 December 2015 12: 12
    +3
    we don’t even have normal looms, that fabrics in 35% are Turkey or China!
    Yesterday I came across this, a case of communication between a designer and a technologist ...
    and you about some wonderful 14 nm ... ((
    my cheers-patriotism took place sometime in March this year. Now I try to control my emotions and, reading articles, analyze: so ... here it is naked emotions and bred, and here it smells a bit of facts, but they were presented in a special way to prove my point - the whole article is not simple wrote ...

    there is no truth, there is a point of view of one of the parties. And there may be a lot of parties ...

    processors are exactly import, a little man recently told one: they say, they tried to put something of ours in avionics, cursed everything and returned to import.
    Maybe there are specialists, but there is no attendant: technology!
    to make a chip you need a hundred or two motley specialists And technologies for them. And that's not counting related specialties and equipment ...

    I'm not a pessimist, but already almost a realist)
    1. Irokez
      Irokez 26 December 2015 13: 29
      +1
      Quote: SanSeich
      I'm not a pessimist, but already almost a realist)

      God loves trinity. You simply do not have optimism, and this is the main and most important component of this trinity.
  29. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 26 December 2015 12: 14
    +2
    Today, December 23, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said that the process of decoding the "black box" of the Russian Su-24 reminded him of a "propaganda show".

    About this writes the Daily Sabah.

    Erdogan emphasized that Russian experts opened the box, but did not extract information from it, he said during a speech in Ankara.

    "This propaganda show makes no sense when the whole world supported Turkey's right (to destroy the Su-24)," the Turkish leader said.

    He also said that Turkey "did not hesitate in making a decision" because it had "accurate information."



    I would like a couple of points on the article (thorough, commendable), but as regards the loss of ALL information, ALL is possible, but only when the Reset command is activated, the memory chips are completely destroyed, or the controller issues a false reset command . It is unlikely that the designers did not calculate these options, the more they initially spoke of serious damage to the 3 chips.

    As for Erdogan’s statements, his cowardice and deceit were fully manifested here. Why was silent before our statements ???
    And if the videoconferencing information is stuffing and decryption will appear tomorrow, then it will be looped into it.
  30. varov14
    varov14 26 December 2015 12: 26
    -2
    The garden of our liberals alone, slightly omit our main liberal. Sometimes he gets off course, appointed - follow a given program.
  31. koshmarik
    koshmarik 26 December 2015 12: 41
    +3
    It seems that all a rather voluminous message was written in the name of paragraph 10. Everything else is a disguise or candy to attract attention. Firstly, my advice to the author: never say - never, history is capable of such turns that you would not even dream of in a dream. Secondly, we should not forget that the West has polished its market economy for almost 200 years, and the fact that Russia has created a draft blank of this economy in 20 years, taking into account poor-quality privatization, is already a great achievement. Now you need not to panic and tear your hair out, but gradually bring the economy to mind.
  32. Kelwin
    Kelwin 26 December 2015 12: 44
    +1
    You can understand a lot, figs with her, with the design - let's say there were reasons to do this. Okay. But here's how this "expert" pepper, who hammers a screwdriver into the slot with a hammer, how did this body get there at all? This is a complete out. For such exits from the furniture shop, they are kicked out in the ass with that broom, and then the whole world on camera. Shame.
  33. iouris
    iouris 26 December 2015 12: 48
    +1
    To determine the purpose of the discussion, first of all, it is necessary to formulate the problem.
    The problem is not that the storage medium is destroyed: any drive design is not able to ensure the safety of information with probability 1.
    An analysis of the data recorded by the on-board flight data recording system (BSRPD) is mandatory in the event of an aircraft accident, the flight safety service will conduct an investigation to determine the causes of a particular accident and prevent accidents.
    But in this case, it was not an aircraft accident, but a combat loss. The fact that the aircraft was shot down is a fact that has been established and officially confirmed by representatives of states.
    It should be noted that the unsuccessful attempt to present the objective control data of the last flight of the downed aircraft was used by the guilty party to the maximum. It seemed that since there was no OK data, not only the guilt was not proved, but the Turkish side’s version of the violation might also be confirmed by the BSPS.
    The main question: why all this was needed by the Russian side, remained unanswered. It is known, after all: when before a combat review a problem arises like: "Take the sapper shovels?", The correct strategy is: "There is no sapper shovel - one drawback."
    Now, with regard to the design of the emergency drive BSRPD.
    In the aviation of the USSR Armed Forces, the mandatory requirements for aviation technology were established by the "General Technical Requirements of the Air Force" (OTT of the Air Force) and the supplier confirmed the compliance of its products with these requirements.
    Since the Su-24 was developed in the USSR, the Tester U3 type BSRPD ser. 3 met the requirements of the Air Force OTT. The safety of emergency information was achieved not only by the protective case, but also by registering information on a metal tape. Even with mechanical destruction of the tape, information could be recovered.
    In the process of modernization, the BSRPD was replaced by a fundamentally new one. The use of SSD, of course, has a positive effect on operational manufacturability: the time required for inter-flight control is significantly reduced. At the same time, for people who are not familiar with the development of domestic BSRPD in the last period, the question remains unclear: is the modern drive only operational, or is it operational-emergency.
    If the drive is operational, then it cannot ensure the safety of information. If the drive is emergency, then the question arises as to whether the design complies with the mandatory requirements, and about the requirements themselves that are imposed on the BSRPD and emergency storage of military aircraft.
    These questions arise in connection with what practice has shown: in this particular case, the existing design does not ensure the safety of emergency information.
    1. Rus2012
      26 December 2015 13: 18
      +1
      Quote: iouris
      Since the Su-24 was developed in the USSR, the type of BSRPD is "Tester U3" ser. 3 met the requirements of OTT Air Force. The safety of emergency information was achieved not only by the protective case, but also by recording information on a metal tape. Even with mechanical destruction of the tape information could be restored.
      In the process of modernization, the BSRPD was replaced by a fundamentally new one. The use of SSD, of course, has a positive effect on operational manufacturability: the time required for inter-flight control is significantly reduced.

      Dear colleague, in accordance with the requirements of all regulatory documents, a solid-state protected registrar must be at least no less shockproof than a magnetic registrar.
      We look TU on the Bow -
      Bant-32-02 protected on-board parametric information storage (developed by Smolensk Meter OJSC, founded in 1968 as part of the MAP), provides:
      ♦ Protection of registered information in the event of an accident from impacts:
      -shock 1000 d,
      - penetrating impact (mass drop of 226 kg from a height of 3 m with a tip of 6,35 mm), - static load of 2260 kgf,
      -temperatures 1100 ° С at 100% surface coverage for 30 min,
      -pressure of sea water 60 MPa,
      - stay in sea water for 30 days,
      -aggressive liquids for 48 hours.

      We look at the main technical data on the parametric magnetic MSRP (see below, scan) -
      - impact of shock overloads - before100ed

      Progress is evident! But, in comparison with Western ones, it’s not enough (Honeywell admits shock resistance - 3600g, Bow - only 1000g).
      But, not yet evening ...
      1. iouris
        iouris 26 December 2015 13: 41
        +1
        There is a specific result, and it is negative.
        Questions to those who justified the mandatory requirements, developed, produced, confirmed compliance with the mandatory requirements remain.
  34. denkastro
    denkastro 26 December 2015 12: 54
    +1
    I have a question for the author of the article. I’m wildly sorry, but I didn’t understand much, 10 point is this expert wrote or is it yours. I put a plus to the article, because I consider it important, but a little confused with the conclusion at the end. But in essence, I believe that the stakes on this NW are so high that competent people will draw their conclusions both in terms of design and quality of execution, so that later there wouldn’t be anything like that. Sincerely.
  35. ayuric
    ayuric 26 December 2015 13: 01
    +3
    dear guardia_rojo, why the last two paragraphs of your article?
    Your analysis, of course, is well disclosed in the article, but do not forget that we do not live in the West, and we have a) intelligent engineers, good modern equipment
    b) production technology
    c) materials, while there are institutes of customers, testers, etc.
    and here simple penny chip Russian nanotechnology does not have, so we put everything bourgeois, coordinate with customers. conduct tests, put into series. We (engineers) are ready to do well and efficiently, give us what.
    PS I work as an electronic engineer at one of the enterprises of the military-industrial complex, I know all this kitchen by hearsay.
    1. Kelwin
      Kelwin 26 December 2015 13: 14
      0
      ayuric, but tell me, as an electronic engineer to a furniture maker - how do you people feel about hammering on a kitchen table with a shitty Chinese screwdriver? Personally, I just skewed ...
      1. Rus2012
        26 December 2015 13: 31
        +2
        Quote: KelWin
        how do you people feel about hammering on a kitchen table with a shitty Chinese screwdriver?

        So -
        1. Immediately dismiss idle speculation regarding the process of opening. Everything went fine, without any complaints. Who worked in the field of military production, he knows about the compound in the thread of screws with a countersunk head, because of which sometimes they have to be drilled, and that it is pointless to use a screwdriver with the slot. So the reasoning about manual labor, lightly tapping on screwdrivers and drilling - leave for your kitchen.


        Moreover, even the British expert claims:
        The work of the Russian Federation with the black box of the downed Su-24 is competent and professional
        The work of the Russian side with the black box of the Su-24 bomber shot down by the Turkish Air Force was carried out professionally. This was announced by the Director General of Gates Aviation Limited Emma Farrant following the results of the participation of the representative of this British company in the autopsy of the flight recorder in the Russian Federation.
        “As for how the investigation was conducted, it seems very competent, professional and completely transparent,” said Farrant to RIA Novosti.

        Original news RT in Russian:
        https://russian.rt.com/article/138845
        1. Kelwin
          Kelwin 26 December 2015 14: 23
          -1
          Here you are dumbfounded)

          Well, then I’m doing something wrong ... But it’s clear where the employees are sent, sent away because of a mutation, when the hands grow out of there. And why domestic furniture fittings and all sorts of banal sockets, terminal blocks are suitable only in a garbage container, the same is clear. Ehh ...
        2. iouris
          iouris 26 December 2015 14: 40
          0
          Thanks. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that it is this conclusion, from my point of view, that is the “bottom line” that we have, as a result, in general, of a rather controversial decision of the Supreme Commander to analyze the flight parameters of the downed Su-24. Controversial, since the external state of the emergency storage case did not allow hoping for primary information.
          It cannot be ruled out that "organizational conclusions" will appear with the "bottom line".
          It should also be borne in mind such circumstances as the technology of "investigation" of the causes of the death of passengers over Ukraine by the Dutch, the investigation of the causes of the death of the Kagalymavia liner, in which our specialists participate, as well as claims from the Polish side regarding the established causes of the death of the plane near Smolensk.
          1. Kelwin
            Kelwin 26 December 2015 17: 27
            0
            Yes, they, who are "organizational conclusions", simply have to be - to drive in the neck in general all those involved in this clowning. With entry into plywood.
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. ayuric
        ayuric 28 December 2015 06: 51
        0
        Soviet or Chinese hammer? I do not understand the topic? but why?
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Rus2012
      26 December 2015 13: 27
      0
      Quote: ayuric
      dear guardia_rojo, why the last two paragraphs of your article?

      Dear colleague, guardia_rojo lives here - http://guardia-rojo.livejournal.com/23323.html
      You can discuss with him there.

      Otherwise, I completely agree with you! bully
  36. WHEEL
    WHEEL 26 December 2015 13: 04
    -1
    no matter how the author of this article would justify himself, but what’s in ha ... but! Consequently, guardia_rojo is right in his assessment.
  37. evge-malyshev
    evge-malyshev 26 December 2015 14: 05
    +2
    The author deliberately or unconsciously, but cheated. Requirements for onboard solid-state recorders (emergency) TSO-C124b, in particular for shock overload 3400g, were introduced only in 2007. Before that, the same parameter had to meet the requirement of "at least 1000g".
    So I'm not sure that the same Boeing 15 - 20 years ago installed registrars that meet the requirements
    TSO-C124b. Our SU-24, in no way can be younger than 30 years, because their release ceased in 1983. So, men, think.
    1. iouris
      iouris 26 December 2015 14: 48
      +1
      What answer will Smolensk manufacturers give to the question: can they make claims to the quality, in particular, the impact resistance of the memory chips used by them to (Chinese?) Manufacturers?
      Most likely they will not be able to. But then questions arise for the leadership of the country, which allowed that the imported element base is widely used in the defense complex.
    2. Rus2012
      26 December 2015 20: 50
      0
      Quote: evge-malyshev
      Requirements for onboard solid-state recorders (emergency) TSO-C124b, in particular for shock overload 3400g, were introduced only in 2007. Before that, the same parameter had to meet the requirement of "at least 1000g".

      what is it about, dear colleague!
      Too many "unrelated" persons dare to judge what they have no idea about. Like “I don’t know, but I have to say”, “Divannye eksperdy”, “supernumerary liberals according to the manual” ... and so on. and so on ...

      Most likely, the author of the material did not know about this.
      This is stated in the preface, but, I dare to assert that the writer of the comments also did not know the regulatory requirements thoroughly.

      Thank you for the clarification!
  38. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 26 December 2015 14: 45
    +2
    They planted the country with an ass in a dirty puddle and argue whether it’s wet enough. Or add some water.
  39. Sunseich
    Sunseich 26 December 2015 15: 09
    0
    Exactly Smolensk manufacturers?
    of these, I only remember Spark :) those that the first ibm pc cloned. They wanted to produce 286, but Perestroika finished it off.
    the first time he was there in about 1999, when he studied in Smolensk: the parts were bought by "non-condensate production". I remember, I bought a textolite there, so bleed the horseradish copper with ferric chloride! either 70, or even thicker))) still somewhere a couple of pieces lie ...
    The second time was around 2005-2006, when I was certified by the cash registers of their production. One developer, he is also a programmer, he also planted the boards. A tall guy with a hairstyle ala "Einstein" :) ... The plant was already collapsed: I passed through the entrance, no one stopped ... everything was dead ...

    but this is so, nastolgia surged ...
  40. Sunseich
    Sunseich 26 December 2015 15: 20
    0
    Quote: maestro123
    On the net I came across a wonderful analysis of the situation with the so-called "black box" shot down by the Turks of the Su-24, made by the respected guardia_rojo. I can't help but quote. True, with some remarks.


    Here it is described in more detail: I am ashamed of domestic electronics! Disgraced all over the world ...

    _http: //kado4nikov.livejournal.com/370169.html

    thanks for the reference! I learned a lot for myself!
    eh, I would have been a good KB intern for half a year to expand my horizons)))
    1. region58
      region58 26 December 2015 20: 39
      +2
      Quote: SanSeich
      Quote: maestro123
      On the net I came across a wonderful analysis of the situation with the so-called "black box" shot down by the Turks of the Su-24, made by the respected guardia_rojo. I can't help but quote. True, with some remarks.


      Here it is described in more detail: I am ashamed of domestic electronics! Disgraced all over the world ...

      _http: //kado4nikov.livejournal.com/370169.html

      thanks for the reference! I learned a lot for myself!

      As they say - not everything is so simple. For a change, from there:
      Shortly about myself

      My name is Victor, you can just - Victor. I am 20 years old. I am from Russia and usually write about politics.

      My position

      Anti-Putin, anti-Soviet, and since the annexation of Crimea is also pro-Ukrainian. From the very beginning, he supported the revolution of the Dignity of the Ukrainian people. He later condemned the vile annexation of Crimea, which went against all international norms and the Ukrainian constitution. At the moment, I am speaking sharply negative in relation to the Russian intervention launched by Putin in eastern Ukraine. I have a very negative attitude towards the majority of Russian media that shamelessly lie, foment war and spread hatred.

      It is unlikely that a twenty-year-old person with well-defined views will be able to draw unbiased conclusions. And when at the age of twenty he managed to get the appropriate qualifications and serve in the army?
      While serving in the army, after firing, I dug from the sand the remnants of electronics from ATGMs. Me as a future engineer

      That is, before the army, until 18 years old, he was not an engineer, and after the army, from 19 to 20 he became ...
  41. xBoris
    xBoris 26 December 2015 16: 47
    +1
    .. everything is correctly described ..
    For that fought for it and ran. Nevertheless, if there was a wire - it would survive ..
  42. Pencil
    Pencil 26 December 2015 17: 40
    +1
    Here it is described in more detail: I am ashamed of domestic electronics! Disgraced all over the world ...

    The author is absolutely right. Watch the video. The technical so-called center specialists do not have their own tool. I know what a personal instrument of a high-class MCP locksmith looks like from the age of 30 at a serious instrument-making enterprise. The whole set of answers and hammers, as a rule, are made by hand and are his pride and demonstration of the owner’s reputation. What is shown here is not a tool that they apparently don’t use, but a props. There are no adaptations. No self-respecting qualified collector will allow himself to work in such conditions. Sweep shavings with white gloves ... That's it. There are brushes for this ... Although the techies there do not know ...
  43. Sunseich
    Sunseich 26 December 2015 18: 10
    0
    Quote: Pencil
    The author is absolutely right. Watch the video. The technical so-called center specialists do not have their own tool. ... What is shown here is not a tool that they apparently don’t use, but a props. There are no adaptations. ... Sweep shavings with white gloves ... That's it. There are brushes for this ... Although the techies there do not know ...


    totally agree with you!
    1. Kelwin
      Kelwin 26 December 2015 18: 16
      +1
      There is a great phrase, like "you can make a training film")) Oh, come on.)
    2. The comment was deleted.
  44. tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 26 December 2015 18: 38
    0
    Something is alarming for our CSW, if all the electronics of such a sample !!! The most modern aircraft and suddenly such crap, according to the technologies of the 70-80s of the last century. A muddy article, a lot of explanations / you’re kind of stupid and don’t understand anything / but in each case the result is important !!! , and he is unfortunately negative.
    1. denkastro
      denkastro 26 December 2015 21: 32
      +2
      Quote: tolmachiev51
      The most modern aircraft and suddenly such crap, according to the technologies of the 70-80s of the last century.
      I’m embarrassed to ask, what years of construction was the plane?
  45. tolian
    tolian 26 December 2015 22: 15
    +2
    Author, re-read this is yours - Either - collectivism, or - individualism and imminent disaster. Since in the West-will not be. Never! The bourgeoisie there is no match for you. And the Motherland is not an empty phrase for them, and the City on the Hill is worth something, and they are ready to gnaw a throat with their own, too over-preset "fat cats". You are incapable of this! --- catastrophe Who do you predict? Collectivism or individualism?
  46. Pattor
    Pattor 26 December 2015 23: 16
    +1
    We watched the brigade online autopsy, whoever heard the comments (((. E-installers of different lengths of service. And the decisions in the block are continuous horror. It wasn’t done by a Soviet engineer. But by the principle, you need additional racks and damping fillings — it's expensive! !! said the boss.
  47. NIKNN
    NIKNN 27 December 2015 00: 08
    +4
    I will immediately thank the author and "PLUS" for the research! Sorry for my 3 kopecks in the piggy bank.
    Those who worked in the field of military production know about the compound in the thread of countersunk screws, because of which sometimes they just have to be drilled, and that it is pointless to use a screwdriver with a slot

    This is not a matter of principle, but being familiar with military equipment was discouraged by drilling, any aircraft technician would use an impact screwdriver. request
    We look at the characteristics of Western registrars, for example, Honeywell allows shock resistance - 3600g, ours - only 1000g
    Most likely, this is the whole truth ... That is, if the registrar were to produce using the western element base (and single-board), perhaps, other results would have been obtained ...

    Directional shock (I would say destructive) load will not give a chance to any element base, there it is necessary to consider not the overload, but the impact energy.
    But it was possible to strengthen it by mechanical means: make a printed circuit board 2,5-3,0 mm thick, leave the belt at the mounting holes not as narrow as it was done, but wider 3-4 mm. Since we see that thin belts simply tore. And install additional mounting racks in the center of the boards

    With this method of destruction, this is not critical (the same fragments would be picked out from the compound or something else)
    Of course, there is a chance that nothing will be restored. And even with such an unfortunate result, publicity is justified. So that no one has the right to accuse Russia of concealing flight data.

    And even if the crystal is destroyed, some of the information can be restored (for example, an electron microscope (the charge of the memory cell is saved), only documentation on the architecture is needed (and the chip is not ours) and very expensive .. request
    Also, due to the fact that the air-to-air rocket explodes a few meters to the side of the aircraft, the NW could not be damaged by its blast wave.

    This missile has rod-shaped striking elements (this is a metal bar) and the nature of destruction corresponds to the striking element)
    In addition, I will say to those who are sure that the registrar board damaged a certain fragment from the rocket. In this case, the inner box with a hole would be immediately shown to all the cameras, all comments would be made, and we wouldn’t have to guess what was inside the carelessly discarded empty case.
  48. NIKNN
    NIKNN 27 December 2015 00: 09
    +2
    I will continue:
    The bar struck and flew off when it hit the ground, which explains precisely the extensive destruction of microcircuits, otherwise the number of destroyed microcircuits would be less (I believe that at the place of the recorder’s detection it wasn’t up to the analysis of the reasons) But I really didn’t see any damage to the inner container, but by overload so the microcircuit is not damaged.
    No, guys, you either remove the cross or put on your underpants and do not disgrace yourself with your Russian capitalism. Either collectivism or individualism and inevitable catastrophe. Since in the West-will not be. Never! The bourgeoisie there is no match for you.

    But on the account of this we still look! hi
  49. vo3
    vo3 27 December 2015 00: 23
    0
    I wonder if one of these hackers served the SU-24. How many and what drives are there on this plane. What do they write and for which systems? The whole undertaking with the removal of information was deliberately erroneous. Ha, ha, learn the materiel, teapots.
  50. Siberian 38
    Siberian 38 27 December 2015 05: 01
    +1
    Even before the release of this article, on the Internet, I found this opinion about this "black box". The article is quite large, with many photos, here is just a small quote:
    Who guessed to use the "multilayer" in such harsh operating conditions? No need to get higher education - just type in Google the query “PCB layout technique” to find out:

    “The main problem of multilayers is the significantly worse long-term reliability of contacts to the inner layers in harsh operating conditions (vibration, mechanical stress, thermal cycling). This is caused by the fact that contact to the inner layers in the vast majority of cases is carried out only at the thin end of the foil in the hole. The difference in temperature coefficients of expansion and Young's modulus of dielectric and copper during vibrations and thermal cycling leads to the formation of delamination / slicing of metallization.

    Two-layer PP with metallization of holes - the most reliable in harsh operating conditions. The main disadvantage of the two-layer is the laboriousness (high cost) of developing a truly high-quality topology. Therefore, the use of two-layer boards for complex devices is justified mainly in two cases. The first case is ensuring extremely high reliability ... "

    The opinion is well reasoned.
    The article itself is here: https://www.drive2.ru/b/2615302/?page=1#comments
    1. glasha3032
      glasha3032 29 December 2015 01: 02
      0
      The presidential "Ila" has six-layer boards and is it DANGEROUS? Everything is calculated and worked out.
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