Military Review

E-25: failed tank destroyer

40
German Tanks E-series (from Entwicklung - development, development) were a program of the Second World War, which involved the creation of experimental tanks. In the future, new combat vehicles were to completely replace the existing ones and those in service. It was supposed to create projects from light to super heavy tanks. The farthest progress was made on the creation of the E-25 (several armored corps were ready) and the E-100, the hull of which without a tower was captured by the Allies at the end of the war. And, although not one of the E-series combat vehicles was completely built in life, they became quite famous - mainly due to computer games, for example, the very popular MMO game World of Tanks in the post-Soviet space.


By the middle of 1942, the Wehrmacht was faced with a serious problem - the excessive variety of armored vehicles available. A very large nomenclature of tanks, anti-tank self-propelled guns and self-propelled guns, especially in the context of the global war, both German production and captured technology seized in Europe, and machines built on the basis of their chassis, created enormous problems in the supply of spare parts. Also such a large variety of equipment made life difficult for repairmen. There was another problem, which consisted in a significant difference in the designs of different tanks, which in the case of the development of new products by this or that enterprise led to the restructuring of production and adjustment of the machines.

Another problem was that in the battles on the Eastern Front, the Germans first encountered enemy tanks, which were superior to their own in a number of tactical and technical characteristics and manufacturability. In order to rectify the situation, the German designer Heinrich Ernst Knipkamp offered his own solution to the problem. In May, 1942, Chief Designer of the Tank Armaments Test Division (WaPruf 6), Ernst Knipkamp formed a special research group, leading it. This group began work on tank projects, in which it was planned to take into account all the experience accumulated by that time in the development of armored vehicles. Since the work on the E-series was a personal initiative of Knipkamp, ​​it went quite slowly. For obvious reasons, all the main forces of the tank weapon test department focused on ensuring the uninterrupted mass production of tanks and the creation of new models of armored vehicles for the orders received from the army. Only by April 1943, the group was able to fully formulate the entire list of basic requirements for the new series of tanks.



It is worth noting that Ernst Knipkamp not only survived his arisen tank series, but also World War II. Heinrich Ernst Knipkamp was born in 1895 year in the province of Westfalia. He was a member of the First World War. From 1923 to the end of World War II, he held various engineering and design positions, being one of the most famous designers in Nazi Germany. Logged in history as a developer of a tank pendant with a chess arrangement of rollers, named after him. Knipkamp suspension was used on the medium tank "Panther" and almost all heavy Reich tanks. After the end of the war, he opened a small engineering company in the city of Halbronn, which was engaged in the improvement of wheeled-tracked vehicles, where he worked until the 1973 year, after which he retired. 30 passed away on July 1977 of the year.

Despite the fact that the state of affairs on the fronts, and most importantly, an acute shortage of various raw materials experienced by Germany at the end of the war, made the release of a new generation of German tanks unrealistic, design work and intensive research in this area were still conducted, as well as built prototypes. The priority of the program was exploration work on new schemes, assemblies and mechanisms, rather than mass production of E-series tanks, so they entrusted such projects to companies that had not previously been producing tanks for the front, so as not to distract specialized firms. Despite this, the program created by Heinrich Knipkamp was quite ambitious. She meant the creation of the latest combat vehicles, taking into account military experience, formed during the first 3-s of the Second World War.

When creating E-series tanks, the designers tried to give them the following basic principles: to maximally strengthen the protection of the hull forehead, to strengthen the installed armament and to increase the mobile ammunition load; develop a single unit for the transmission and ensure its simple installation and disassembly in the housing to simplify the repair and maintenance of equipment; in order to increase the internal volume of the hull and reduce the height of the tanks, it was decided to place the engine with the transmission in the stern, a suspension was also used with the placement of elastic elements outside the hull; the suspension had to allow the caterpillar to stretch when the sloth was torn or parts of the rollers so that the tank could always be moved to the rear; when creating tanks, it was planned to use the maximum possible number of identical units and assemblies in order to facilitate the process of production, repair and maintenance.

E-25: failed tank destroyer


In total, within the framework of the E-series, 5 tanks should have appeared, which should have closed the entire set of combat missions assigned to them - from conducting reconnaissance (light tank) to breaking through heavily fortified lines of defense (heavy and super heavy tanks):

E-10 - light, he's a small reconnaissance tank, or tank destroyer, which was supposed to weigh up to 15 tons. It was planned that this machine will receive a 75-mm gun Pak 40 L / 48.
E-25 - tank / tank destroyer with a mass of about 25-30 tons, the machine was planned to equip 75-mm gun L / 70.
E-50 - medium tank weighing approximately 50 tons, replacing tanks "Panther".
E-75 - heavy tank mass 75-80 tons, replacing all the tanks "Tiger".
E-100 - super heavy tank weighing up to 130-140 tons, which was supposed to be an alternative to super-heavy tank "Maus".

All E-series cars differed in weight, booking, armament, engine power and, of course, cost. At the same time, under the conditions in which Germany was at the final stage of the war, in reality only the E-25 vehicles, which, in fact, were anti-tank SAUs, could reach mass production. Apparently, in the winter of 1945, several corps were ready for the E-25, which were lost by the Germans during the offensive of the Red Army.

E-25 was the second in the list of proposed for consideration tanks E-series. It was a 25-30 tons fighting vehicle, armed with a long-barreled 7,5cm KwK 42 cannon with 70 barrel lengths. The E-25 index was assigned to the lower weight limit of the machine under development. It was planned that the troops of the E-25 will be able to replace all models of tanks PzKpfw III, PzKpfw IV, as well as PT-SAU, based on them, for example (StuG III / 40).

Tank gun 7,5cm KwK 42 L70


Work on the creation of the E-25 started a little earlier than other machines - at the end of 1943. Which also contributed to greater progress in the project. Adler from Frankfurt am Main was connected to the development of self-propelled guns, which needed to design a very mobile tank destroyer with a low silhouette and a rather powerful reservation level. One of the main "highlights" of the designed PT-ACS was supposed to be its gun. It is worth noting that the design office of Adlerwerke, which was headed by German Klyau, was not engaged in the development of armored vehicles before the war. The company Adler produced cars, as well as bicycles and typewriters, and during World War II began to produce armored personnel carriers.


In addition to Adler, Porsche from Stuttgart and Argus from Karlsruhe were involved in working on the E-25 project. The company Porsche simultaneously carried out its own design surveys according to the performance characteristics for E-25, which were established by the Knupkamp research group. After the scandalous competition, which took place when choosing a serial chassis for the new PzKpfw VI Tiger, Ferdinand Porsche could not forgive the loss test Knipkamp’s tank testing department, trying to compete with its design bureaus.

The developers of the new anti-tank self-propelled gun took into account the positive experience that they have learned from participating in the StuG III tank destroyers at the initial stage of World War II. Due to the low silhouette, it was hard to hit the enemy gunners and tankers, so the designers initially decided to create from the E-25 not a tank, but a tank destroyer. At the initial design stage, it was planned to install a Maybach water cooling engine on the E-25, which developed 400 hp. at 4000 rpm. However, this power unit was never put into mass production, so the developers began to consider the installation option aviation Argus air-cooled direct-injection engine with 350 hp

Engine Maybach HL 230 P30


But air cooling for armored vehicles, which was hampered by the flow of clean, non-dusty air, became a problem. Therefore, the designers stop on the already proven engine cooling. We are talking about serial 12-cylinder carburetor engine Maybach HL 230 P30 23 volume of liters. This engine was widely used on tanks "Panther", "Tiger", and also was placed on PT-SAU "Jagdpantera" and did not cause special complaints from German tankers. Engine power - 700 HP at 3000 rpm - there was enough for such an easy car as an E-25, which could reach a maximum speed with such a power plant - up to 65 km / h.

When designing the chassis E-25 designers took into account the factor of speed and adaptability of its production. Torsion bar suspension, despite all its advantages, was quite heavy and time consuming. Therefore, instead of torsions, another type of external suspension system was proposed, which consisted of a lever including a shock absorber and a spring. This lever had a stroke on the shaft, which was installed on the outer side of the body of the self-propelled gun. At the same time, the springs needed to be located inside the body of the suspension unit; they had a central hydraulic shock absorber. Each such suspension unit was installed on the lower side of the hull with bolts, so if the unit would be damaged in a battle or in an accident, dismantling it would not create serious problems, and repairmen would not need to use special equipment. Each board had 5 suspension blocks, each of which was equipped with one dual support roller, having a diameter of 1000 mm.

The suspension system of the E-25, as well as the chess arrangement of the rinks on this PT-ACS, was the creation of Knupkamp. Moreover, the chess arrangement of the rinks was typical for all designed E-series tanks. The rollers were placed according to a chess pattern, to the right and left of the single-row teeth of the track chain, they were equipped with rubber bandages. Each track chain consisted of small steel tracks with a width of 660 mm (according to other information - 700 mm). Structurally, such a track chain was similar to that developed for the medium tank Panther II, but in this particular case only one row of teeth was provided, which passed between overlapping rollers. The length of the support surface was equal to the 2,96 meter with the gauge width 2,74 meter. For the E-25 anti-tank self-propelled gun, the minimum turning radius was estimated at 1,08 meters.



As the work on the creation of self-propelled guns moved, the requirements for the power of its armament only grew. At the front began to appear more and more new Soviet tanks, the level of body armor which increased. Therefore, it was decided to put on PT-SAU more powerful 75-mm gun 7,5cm KwK 44, the development of which was conducted jointly by the corporations Krupp and Skoda. It was a tank gun with a concentric arrangement of a nakatnik and a hydraulic retractor, to which an autoloader was created in the Czech Republic. In the future, it was believed that the rate of fire from such a weapon could be 40 rds / min. In fact, if the gun were actually installed on a tank, the rate of fire from it would be limited only by the practical skills of its crew members. But before the end of World War II, this gun was not even launched into mass production, so the E-25 weapons variant was also considered by the legendary 88cm KwK 8,8 43cm 105 10,5 42 gun. Earlier, a similar 105-mm howitzer was already mounted on a StuH 42 assault rifle, built on the chassis of the Pz.Kpfw.III tank.

The tank gun 8,8cm Pak 43 was created in Germany on the basis of a very good anti-aircraft gun Flak 41, which the Germans, since the 1941 year, often used to fight tanks. The anti-aircraft gun made it possible to fight Soviet tanks KV-1 and KV-2, which were invulnerable to other German guns. Since April, 1943cm Pak 8,8 began to install 43 Pak on the Ferdinand PT-ACS under the symbol KwK 43. From October of the same year, it was registered in another PT-SAU "Jagdpanther", and since March 1944 appeared on the tank Pz.Kpfw. VI Ausf. B "Tiger II" (or the Royal Tiger). Armed with such a powerful weapon, the self-propelled E-25, which had a high movement speed and a very low silhouette, would become a serious enemy for any enemy armored vehicles. In this case, 88-mm gun designers did not want to be limited. They planned to install on the roof of the body of the self-propelled gun a turret with an 20-mm automatic cannon, which was designed to combat enemy infantry and unarmored and lightly armored equipment.

Reserving a new anti-tank self-propelled gun didn’t have much power: the thickness of the upper frontal hull detail - 60 mm, the lower frontal detail - 30 mm, the roof and the bottom - 20 mm. Such a modest reservation was chosen for the reason that the rate was made on its low profile and high speed, allowing you to quickly change the position. In this case, all the armorists had rational angles of inclination. The front and stern sheets were located at an angle of 45 °, which significantly increased the thickness of the above armor. The weapon was planned to be protected with a standard German armored mask, called the “pig's snout”.



In terms of its layout, the PT-SAU of the E-25 resembled the most massive PT-SAU of the Wehrmacht - StuG III / 40. Department of management and combat department in it were combined. On the left side of the gun, located in front of the self-propelled gun, was a driver. On the right side sat the gunner. The car commander was sitting on the left side behind, charging accordingly on the right side. At the stern of the E-25 was an engine that was supposed to be mounted transversely.

The anti-tank self-propelled gun E-25 and the super-heavy tank E-100 were the only machine out of the entire E-series, which were used for design work and factories began to assemble prototype machines. In total, three E-25 prototypes were ordered. Armored hulls for them were put into production in the second half of the 1944 year. They were planned to be released at metallurgical enterprises located in Kattovice (today Katowice, Poland). As of 23 January, 1945, several hulls were already ready to be transported for the final assembly in Frankfurt am Main, but on January 27, the advance units of the Red Army entered the city. What happened to these buildings after the capture of the city is not known. To this day they have not survived.



Information sources:
http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/tanks/germany/e-25.htm
http://warspot.ru/1126-seriya-e-nerodivshiysya-ubiytsa-tankov
http://www.tehnikapobedy.ru/e25.htm
http://www.vn-parabellum.com/ger/e-25.html
Open source materials
Author:
40 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Grigorievich
    Grigorievich 24 December 2015 07: 51 New
    14
    Self-propelled guns are similar to the Czech "Hetzer", which were released about a half thousand.
    1. Dimon19661
      Dimon19661 24 December 2015 09: 54 New
      +2
      Which by the way was extremely inconvenient for the crew.
      1. sokudo
        sokudo 24 December 2015 10: 10 New
        13
        But who showed himself not very badly in battle, due to the small size and sufficient reservation.
        1. cheguevarazhiv
          cheguevarazhiv 18 February 2016 15: 37 New
          0
          For which he received the respectful name Osa from our tankers
    2. Aristocrat
      Aristocrat 26 January 2016 10: 42 New
      0
      Gentlemen ... teach the materiel. Hetzer - a self-propelled gun VERMAHT i.e. Germany (based on the Czechoslovak tank).
  2. Razvedka_Boem
    Razvedka_Boem 24 December 2015 08: 28 New
    +9
    With such a long trunk, combined with a low silhouette, when driving over rough terrain, the trunk should have been “stuck” in the ground.
  3. Kostyanich
    Kostyanich 24 December 2015 08: 45 New
    10
    as the Germans did everything in a hurry
    created as many buildings laughing
    and from the east, meanwhile, an avalanche was coming from the SU-100 ISU-152 created in just a month
    I wonder what would happen to the E-25 if a 152 mm shell hit it? smile
    1. bandabas
      bandabas 24 December 2015 08: 53 New
      +5
      So this was Germany's biggest problem in World War II. Good scientists, great industry, lots of ideas and implementations. And as a result, the dispersion of forces and potential, which in war conditions does not pull. There is no reception against scrap.
      1. gla172
        gla172 24 December 2015 09: 42 New
        +2
        Yes, Adolf suffered maximalism, there's nothing to be done about it ......

        But this self-propelled gun, and in fact, didn’t represent anything outstanding ...
        1. projdoha
          projdoha 24 December 2015 12: 06 New
          -6
          This sau was planned for special shells, because before the war, uranium enrichment was actively going on,
          But either the Germans did not have time, or agreed, almost all of the enriched uranium and almost ready Ya.B. The Americans took to their home, 2 of them fell to Japan.
      2. Spitfire
        Spitfire 24 December 2015 09: 57 New
        +8
        Quote: bandabas
        So this was Germany's biggest problem in World War II. Good scientists, great industry, lots of ideas and implementations. And as a result, the dispersion of forces and potential, which in war conditions does not pull. There is no reception against scrap.


        German joke of the end of World War II:

        "Our scientists are working on the problem of turning th %%% vna into butter. The work has been completed by 50%. It can already be spread on bread, but we still have to work on the taste and smell."
        1. bandabas
          bandabas 25 December 2015 11: 25 New
          0
          However, German scientists were taken away. And ours, and the States, and others.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 24 December 2015 10: 45 New
      +6
      Quote: kostyanich
      and from the east, meanwhile, an avalanche was coming from the SU-100 ISU-152 created in just a month

      Well ... about "in a month" - you got excited.

      Work on the assault 152-mm gun went from the beginning of 1942 - EMNIP, as much as 4 KB. A year later, the customer was tired of looking at the R&D process - and on January 4, 1943, by the Decree of the State Defense Committee, it was ordered to complete the design work and issue a prototype self-propelled guns in 25 days. Taking into account the developments and the existing backlog, the work was completed on time.

      The development of the SU-100 based on the existing SU-85 generally took almost six months (and was accompanied by a fierce struggle between Grabin and Petrov). However, before mid-1944 there was no sense in the SU-100 - for there were no armor-piercing shells for the 100-mm gun.
      Well, they did not need a 100-mm BBS fleet, from which this gun was borrowed. For for small ships (TFR and TSC), on which the 100 mm were in the position of the main gun, any encounter with an armored enemy was fatal. And for large ships, on which 100-mm anti-aircraft guns were used, 100-mm BBS was all the more unnecessary - they lacked larger-caliber barrels (and the BC is not rubber). In coastal defense, the targets of 100 mm were boats and small ships, for which OFS was enough for the eyes.
      1. dvina71
        dvina71 24 December 2015 18: 34 New
        +3
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Well, they did not need a 100-mm BBS fleet, from which this gun was borrowed. For for small ships (TFR and TSC), on which the 100 mm were in the position of the main gun, any encounter with an armored enemy was fatal. And for large ships, on which 100-mm anti-aircraft guns were used, 100-mm BBS was all the more unnecessary - they lacked larger-caliber barrels (and the BC is not rubber). In coastal defense, the targets of 100 mm were boats and small ships, for which OFS was enough for the eyes.


        Wow. Wow .. be quiet please .. so many alternatives at a time .. already too much ..
        D10 was made of marine anti-aircraft guns, and not the main caliber. The problem was not in the shells, but in the possibilities of producing trunks. As much as they could, they compiled as much to Balloton, but there they had a lot of fun.
        Serve longer than all the other PTSAU and D10 is still fighting on the T-54/55 .. In general, a rework was successful.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 25 December 2015 10: 31 New
          0
          Quote: dvina71
          Wow. Wow .. be quiet please .. so many alternatives at a time .. already too much ..
          D10 was made of marine anti-aircraft guns, and not the main caliber.

          D-10 was made from a 100-mm sea gun (B-24 / B-34).
          Which on ships from the Kyrgyz Republic and above was anti-aircraft (B-34). And on small ships - TSh, SKR, PL - was the main caliber (B-24).
          Quote: dvina71
          The problem was not in the shells, but in the possibilities of producing trunks.

          But do not remind me - why did the illegitimate SU-85M appear? And when was the serial production of the BR-412B launched?
          D-10S went into production in September 1944.
          Comrade USTINOV D.F.

          On your instructions, we report on the question of replacing the D-25 cannon with the D-10T cannon in the IS tank:
          (...)
          3. The plant in August - September finishes the entire pre-production of the D-10C.
          4. In October - November, the production can be transferred entirely to the D-10T system instead of the D-25 system.
          In October, the issue of D-10T can be determined - 150 pcs., In November - 250 pcs.

          And the armor-piercing shell for the D-10S - only in November.
    3. revnagan
      revnagan 24 December 2015 12: 21 New
      +2
      Quote: kostyanich
      I wonder what would happen to the E-25 if a 152 mm shell hit it?

      Well, from such a "gift" and the "Tiger" would not have been greeted ... I read that the tower "demolished" the cat, and the armor burst like a nut.
    4. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 24 December 2015 16: 25 New
      +7
      Quote: kostyanich
      I wonder what would happen to the E-25 if a 152 mm shell hit it?

      It would be as always: the caterpillar is shot down, movement is impossible. Damage 0 HP. laughing
    5. Cap.Morgan
      Cap.Morgan 24 December 2015 21: 52 New
      0
      They had a lot of resources. And a lot of qualified personnel. Which simply gushed ideas, even the most incredible at that time.
  4. Proximo
    Proximo 24 December 2015 10: 53 New
    +4
    Thanks for the interesting article, I play this game and there is such a machine, I learned a lot.
  5. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 24 December 2015 11: 06 New
    +1
    The idea is bad in general. Aiming guns should only be carried out
    turning the whole car. Can only be used in flat areas.
    (at one level): the gun does not rise and fall. Running backwards is difficult -
    mechanic look forward.
    The British had a self-propelled fighter, where the driver looked back, and the shooter forward.
    This is more logical with the tactics of hitting from an ambush and flight after a couple of shots.
    1. pimen
      pimen 24 December 2015 12: 19 New
      +2
      in fact, the trunk has the freedom of aiming horizontally and vertically in sectors of 15-20 degrees
      1. gla172
        gla172 24 December 2015 13: 22 New
        +4
        And here, at Swedes in general, only a vertical tip.
    2. Megatron
      Megatron 24 December 2015 13: 20 New
      +2
      As an option, the anti-tank struggle in defense, from distant closed positions. German tanks had very good optics.
      1. BV330
        BV330 26 December 2015 01: 49 New
        0
        From distant IMHO only from the hills, because a low line of fire will not allow you to shoot far. )))
  6. projdoha
    projdoha 24 December 2015 11: 52 New
    0
    Ours did everything right, increased the caliber of tanks and self-propelled guns to the maximum at that time. Because tanks and sau are needed to fight against infantry and enemy fortifications. And against the tanks there are planes, artillery and guns.
    In 1943, the infantry easily disabled heavy Ferdinands, because the Germans, fixated on our kv-1 and t-34, did not even install a machine gun.
  7. Support
    Support 24 December 2015 12: 52 New
    -2
    And the developers of World of Tanks from this mandavoshki made a super duper birdie. I play, so my KV-1C made this herring for 5 shots in the forehead. I shot - barely struck. And in general, in this fucking game, Soviet tanks are one of the most flawed. In the first places are Merikos, Angles, Chinese (and this is generally Tryndets), Japanese (this is even more Tryndets). The game has an anti-Russian direction. An interesting game, but I would pinch them, freaks ....
    1. Pissarro
      Pissarro 24 December 2015 13: 08 New
      +3
      Before the advent of the European, Chinese, and American servers, the game was accused of exactly the opposite, that apart from Soviet technology, everything was cardboard and dull. And it was impossible to sell to the bourgeoisie and the Chinese. I had to adjust it. Nothing anti-Russian, clean business. I also play and I wouldn’t be categorical, IS-3 worthy makes the whole foreign zoo in the right hands)
    2. alovrov
      alovrov 24 December 2015 13: 39 New
      0
      Hands rule.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Megatron
      Megatron 24 December 2015 13: 53 New
      +2
      Let's play in other places to discuss.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 24 December 2015 16: 29 New
        +3
        Quote: Megatron
        Let's play in other places to discuss.

        Your statement is especially well combined with the background image of this site. laughing
    5. Protos
      Protos 24 December 2015 14: 12 New
      +2
      Straighten Your Hands and you will be rewarded laughing
      Each branch has its own operating methods, sort it out, smoke a forum ... hi
    6. Rostovchanin
      Rostovchanin 24 December 2015 14: 13 New
      +2
      100% for. It is the Americans in the first place, although 70% of their tanks represented in the game are unfinished projects. In the project, you can draw such characteristics that the tank will fly. But in reality, a complete HS.
      And I also have a suspicion, because the current owner of the WOT project is Americans, then the conclusion suggests itself. But for the most part I still prefer tips :). in spite of the enemies. And I play hel very rarely, even though it’s an imba :) 0 is not an interesting tank, too sweet, everything in it is good.
      1. Pissarro
        Pissarro 24 December 2015 18: 12 New
        +1
        The owners of the Wargaming company that created WOT are XNUMX% Belarusians and Russians, and the company is registered in Cyprus, it’s easier with taxes and property rights. There were no mattresses
        1. Rostovchanin
          Rostovchanin 12 January 2016 12: 20 New
          0
          Go to the wiki and see who the developers are ...
          And how many employees are in USA. The news was about several mergers and acquisitions of wargamig. Plus, no one will ever tell you about hidden investors. Honestly, I have never met information about the release of their shares on an IPO.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    7. The comment was deleted.
    8. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 24 December 2015 16: 28 New
      -5
      Quote: Prop
      I play, so my KV-1C made this herring for 5 shots in the forehead. I shot - barely struck.

      Do not play on Soviet tanks. (C)
      1. Rostovchanin
        Rostovchanin 12 January 2016 12: 26 New
        0
        funny man, the KV-1s tank is one level lower (if not two, I don’t remember now offhand). E-ha, then it uncovers peers in normal hands for one or two, and you want to unwind it on the current kvass :), how much time do you have for recharging? and breaking through BBshka? On the old, it was still possible with top-down fluff, and then the reload time was 13 seconds.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    9. ICT
      ICT 24 December 2015 19: 43 New
      0
      Quote: Prop
      And the developers of World of Tanks


      I don’t know, but I laughed wink

  8. Support
    Support 24 December 2015 13: 54 New
    +2
    Quote: alovrov
    Hands rule.

    Yes, I would love to rule. But only they adjust their VBR so that it’s just ATAS. And further. Above, the comrade said, nothing personal is just business. So, I don’t throw money to them, that is, I don’t buy anything for living, therefore I’m constantly in the anus. In principle, in which team I am all like that. But you just need to somehow measure the capabilities of technology. If they have a patsak 1C also from a series of fiction ....
    1. Protos
      Protos 24 December 2015 14: 26 New
      0
      Well, I don’t know ... T-127, BT7, T-70, Tram, Motya, T34, T34 \ 85, KV-1, KVaS-85, IS-3-8, Is-6, KV-4,5, T-44 T-55, su-100, su85, su5, su26 ... imba good
  9. pimen
    pimen 24 December 2015 14: 58 New
    +2
    Quote: gla172
    And here, at Swedes in general, only a vertical tip.

    Swedes are great originals. They had both horizontal and vertical aiming carried out only by the hull, there was even an AZ and a very long barrel with the overall compact dimensions of the machine.
    1. gla172
      gla172 24 December 2015 16: 26 New
      +2
      And remember like this ....)
  10. the47th
    the47th 24 December 2015 22: 40 New
    0
    Given the location of the gun, scooping up zealots with a barrel is a trifling matter. And after that you won’t fight on E-25.
  11. Sascha
    Sascha 24 December 2015 23: 34 New
    +8
    wassat
    The article about the premium "Flea" clearly excited all tank guides.
    When they gather somewhere in quantity of two or more, shouts in the bird's tongue are heard from their noisy company: "Imba, Cactus, VBR, Alfatapok, Kvass, Vundervaflya, Tram, Motya, Artu time to nerf, Straighten your hands, cancer ... .. "