Military Review

Andromeda's nebula"

36
Airborne gunners are waiting for the day of innovation will come to the troops


The problem of updating the park of the barrel artillery of the Ground Forces, the creation of modern systems was raised in the article “Where are our guns?”. We continue the conversation on the example of the artillery of the Airborne Forces. What are the possibilities to increase its combat effectiveness, to create new ammunition? How perfect are the existing means of automating fire control systems?

According to the results of 2015, the airborne units must receive more than 20 self-propelled artillery guns (SAO) "NONA-1М", 30 modernized reconnaissance and fire control machines "Rheostat-1". They are equipped with advanced communication and control tools, a new hardware and software complex that performs not only automated determination of the coordinates of the targets being hit, but also laser illumination of targets at a distance of up to nine thousand meters for the use of Kitol-2 guided missiles.

Fight for every kilo


The modernized "NONA" has at its disposal a powerful on-board computer, allowing it to operate in an autonomous mode, regardless of the location of the artillery reconnaissance machines. All self-propelled guns are equipped with modules of ACS "Andromeda-D".

By 2016, the weapons will go deep modernized self-propelled anti-tank gun (SPTP) "Sprut" SDM. She has a different engine, advanced modular control. It will be the only anti-tank gun in the world that shoots afloat.

Andromeda's nebula"“Still, the basis of the airborne artillery system is 120-mm CAO 2,” says Dmitry Semizorov, General Director of TsNIITOCHMASH. - Many of them need major repairs. It is planned to replace the 120-mm CAO 2C36, developed in the framework of the ROC "Zauralets". He has increased ammunition capacity increased to 65 shots. The maximum range of high-explosive fragmentation projectile - 13 kilometers. The question of its increase to 30 kilometers of high-precision guided projectile is being considered. There are also such advantages as the autonomy of combat use, the possibility of self-reconnaissance of targets, protection against high-precision weapons, full automation of guidance. "

Testing and prototyping of the CAO 2C36 completed. Such regimes as the anti-fire maneuver and fire raid have been worked out. Shooting was conducted by regular ammunition.

To implement the additional capabilities of the CAO, proposals were developed to increase the survivability of the trunk. Preliminary studies are also being conducted on the creation of a guided munition of a new type with a maximum range of 30 kilometers and the implementation of the principle of “fired-forgotten”.

There are other reserves to increase the rate of "Zauraltsa". For example, work continues on improving the vertical and horizontal block layouts, which will work semi-automatically, and when installing a stabilization system, firing is possible.

But all these innovations can lead to an increase in mass, which is highly undesirable for the transport of BTA. Therefore, the struggle is literally for every kilogram of weight. There are already 18 tons in Zauralets, there is still a mass reserve.

According to the new "Testament"


A special conversation about the means of ACS. Today, the 120-mm 2-9 guns are used for reconnaissance and fire control using Rheostat-1 mobile points, modified with the placement of a laser rangefinder and 1-35 shot synchronization tools. But when solving combat missions with single guns or small units, it is desirable to provide reconnaissance and fire control with portable means of SLA.

Taking into account the specifics of performing these tasks, the airborne units of the airborne forces can be equipped with the portable Malachite automated fire control system developed by the initiative of OJSC KBP in 2004 for export. Among its advantages are mobility of use, detection and identification of targets at any time of the day, laser target illumination, topogeodesic preparation of KNP and KP, automated calculation of firing installations. The introduction of the complex will increase the effectiveness of fire control, reduce the time to perform combat missions.

As for the means of the automated control system of the artillery division, then, as the deputy general director of Rubin OJSC, Kirill Lavrinenko, said, special software is being developed with the aim of increasing the effectiveness of the artillery of the Airborne Forces. The main directions of modernization:

elimination of contradictions between fire capabilities, reconnaissance assets and the ability of officials to use a complex of control;
automation of the management process and the work of officials in the preparation of military operations and in the course of them;
the use of artillery with various promising reconnaissance equipment.

On the Innovation Day of the Ministry of Defense last October, the standard liquid crystal tablet of the division commander at the Andromed ACS was shown, which constantly displayed the situation on the battlefield. Management was conducted from the console of the main official. Screen forms were minimized in size, and the information was readable and did not require interpretation. Everything that is on the command map was interactive, a number of tasks could be performed on any element. The official was offered optimal solutions based on the latest intelligence. That is, in real time, taking into account the movement of their own and enemy troops.

However, such tablets in the troops yet. As there is no high-performance machine control and effective means of intelligence. One of the enterprises, OJSC Rubin, has worked on the image of a control machine based on BMD-4М. “We hope it will meet the requirements of the gunners of the Airborne Forces. From 2016, we plan to start work in this direction, ”the representative of OJSC Rubin assured.

Already now the enterprise has a ready-made solution: a similar vehicle based on BMP-3 has been developed within the framework of the Testament development work. The software that the airborne gunners need is installed on it. True, it is unclear whether she will be able to interact with aviation and at what level is its integration into other systems feasible.

At the level of a graphical diagram, a battalion commander, for example, must see which targets can be destroyed by aviation, and which by their fire weapons. The question is in the laboriousness of filling such an interface with data. In any case, already at this stage, an in-depth analysis of the problems of interspecific interaction is necessary. The gunners say that the "Reostat" has already been upgraded, and the "Sagittarius" is linked to the advanced aircraft manufacturer. A year ago, even relevant exercises were conducted, where innovations were tested in practice.

Work on the "Zauraltsy" is serious. Taking into account all the requirements, it will be finalized not earlier than in a year. And he will enter the Airborne Forces (together with the control vehicle) only by 2019. This is in the most favorable scenario, although there may be quite a few obstacles on the way.

Another problem is the lack of simulators for new equipment. Significantly behind the requirements of the time and the very methods of training the gunners of the Airborne Forces.

Ideally, an integrated simulator is needed to prepare the artillery battery as a whole, which will allow the entire personnel of the unit to be involved in the training. However, it is not known what stage such a development is at. There is information about the complete lack of funds for it. So while the airborne artillery gunners have to train personnel on a standard combat equipment, spending an invaluable lifespan.

Limited range


Even more difficult is the situation with new ammunition. Constructors today need to think about how to control the projectile in flight and receive information from it (“hit - did not hit”).

Currently, the Airborne Forces are armed with 120-mm ammunition for the CJSC 2C9 "NONA". The 2K28 control complex was developed and adopted for them in the 2002. It consists of a shot with a guided projectile, a laser target-finder-rangefinder 1-22. Its main advantage is the high probability of a direct hit at the target by the first shot without zeroing in the range of distances from 1,5 to 9 kilometers. And how will other ammunition, for example, the same "Kitol-2", behave in battle?

According to experts, the projectile is not bad, belongs to the class of precision weapons. But there are shortcomings. It does not, for example, provide for work on targets behind cover.

“The main disadvantage of the Kitolov-2 complex is the lack of opportunities for firing at mortar trajectories and targets located behind high shelters on the reverse slopes,” notes Alexander Shitin, head of the KBP division.

Recall: mortar firing is possible at angles of no more than 60 degrees. There are restrictions for Kitolov and the height of the lower cloud limit (400 – 1200 m). He makes quite high demands on the meteo-ballistic preparation of the calculation, which is not always acceptable for the Airborne Forces units.

In addition, the range of the Kitolov-2 product is currently considered to be insufficient for carrying out fire missions.

Shitin says that OJSC KBP is ready to introduce an 120-mm Grani mine, which has been developed for export deliveries. The design features allow it to be used for all 120-mm airborne artillery systems. KBP is ready to begin the development of 120-mm unified mine "Edge-1", which in its performance characteristics has no analogues abroad. This is primarily about homing heads. Perhaps the use of laser semi-active GOS and perspective autonomous, which is being developed in the PCU. The introduction of the “Gran” complex as a whole will increase the controllability of projectiles by at least 40 – 50 percent, and combat use - by two times. But these are prospects.

There are problems with the 110-m shot. According to Nikolai Sereda, director of science at NPO Bazalt, high accuracy is achieved when shooting at a distance of 13 kilometers from Zauraltsa-D. The downside is that after using the 110 shot, the barrel's resource drops sharply - three to four times. This means that each gun will require more thorough additional control and maintenance. For the troops, these are redundant problems. In connection with this, NPO Basalt is planning to modernize the 110-shot, which should reach the 20 – 21 kilometer and have a new, more gentle charge. Practices are. To speed up the loading process, it will be modular, rigidly fastened with a projectile and, possibly, used with obturating belts.

According to the statement by Vladimir Vishnevsky, General Designer of NTC Ametekh, it was possible to create the first automated reconnaissance and firing artillery complex for a whole class of mines. “Airborne troops must have only precision weapons,” Vishnevsky is sure. - Therefore, we are already thinking about ammunition, which will work with a unitary cartridge, laser target designation and the possibility for passive additional exploration of the target. Upgrading the 152-mm projectile will allow it to fly 40 kilometers. ”

"Bravely-M1" - the most powerful mortar in the world. The leadership of Syria, they say, is very requested for its supply. And if we went for it four years ago, perhaps there would not be today's problems with the ISIL terrorist group that we have banned.

It seems that the active hostilities of our VKS against the militants in Syria, the irregular consumption of ammunition and cruise missiles will push the leadership of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation to take optimal decisions.

There is a need for a qualitative leap in the combat use of artillery through the creation of an automated control system based on the introduction of new information technologies that provide real-time deep reconnaissance of enemy targets and their highly efficient fire destruction, information and functionally integrated automated control systems of the airborne forces artillery.

In this regard, gunners recommend to the Military Scientific Committee of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation to include in the plan of priority comprehensive scientific research work on:

-implementation of the maneuvering and firing form of actions of the artillery formations of the airborne forces;
-the substantiation of methods and techniques for evaluating the effectiveness of the RPF as a whole and the performance of fire missions in the changing conditions of warfare using existing and prospective high-precision ammunition, as well as on new physical principles;
-development of means and methods of preparing fire and fire control in the course of performing fire missions using various types of ammunition;
-development, modernization and operation of complexes and models of artillery equipment and means of support.
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36 comments
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  1. Civil
    Civil 27 December 2015 08: 41
    +2
    This is all in the medium term, and then in the Airborne Forces, but what about the rest of the army? Specifically, in the Ground Forces when all goes well?
  2. Termit1309
    Termit1309 27 December 2015 09: 48
    +5
    3F5M "Daredevil-M" is like a mine for the 2S4 Tulip mortar. About Daredevil M1 even Google has not heard what
  3. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 27 December 2015 13: 13
    -6
    The Airborne Forces are very expensive troops, but recently they have not been used for their intended purpose, for example, in Chechnya they acted as assault infantry. Maybe you need to cook motorized rifles better? And this despite the fact that we do not have heavily armored parts of attack aircraft with armatures and barrows. It is necessary to transfer part of the airborne divisions to attack aircraft, replacing lightly armored vehicles with armored personnel carriers and kurgans, and remove the parachute from training. Obvious things are obviously not suitable for the minds of the general, for whom these parts will obey once, and they will have to print new manuals for them and work, it is better to let the assault run and burn in its aluminum boxes.
    1. Per se.
      Per se. 27 December 2015 15: 39
      -3
      Quote: Victor Wolz
      It is necessary to transfer part of the airborne divisions to attack aircraft, replacing lightly armored vehicles with armored personnel carriers and kurgans, and remove the parachute from training.
      Our "partners" have been dreaming about this for a long time, you can't wait. As for replacing "armored personnel carriers and kurgans" (as well as two-story "Boomerangs"), this technique is for the explosives, just these monsters will fit perfectly for police and anti-terrorist operations, but not for a real war with first-class armies. "Obvious things" are to do for the infantry on the mastered and reliable base T-72 / T-90 modified heavy armored personnel carriers (based on BMO-T) and BMPT, plus the universal BMP-3, and not your expensive, raw and complex mastodons, a la "Bradley".
      1. Victor Wolz
        Victor Wolz 27 December 2015 17: 28
        +3
        Your BMO-T where the landing is carried out from the hatches from above full crap, a joy for the sniper. BMP-3 is a good car for motorized rifles, and it is necessary to take cities on Armata and Kurgan with attack aircraft, and not motorized rifles and paratroopers for cardboard armor. Is it really incomprehensible? Separate it should be parts, and not instead of landing and motorized infantry. I am not writing that all motorized rifles and paratroopers need to be re-equipped with armatures --- is it fershteyn ????
        1. Per se.
          Per se. 28 December 2015 07: 25
          +1
          Quote: Victor Wolz
          I am not writing that all motorized rifles and paratroopers need to be re-equipped with armatures --- is it fershteyn ????
          This is "ferstein", but the Airborne Forces, this is the Airborne Forces, and you are proposing to transfer part of the landing divisions to attack aircraft, for greater "guarding", removing parachute training from training. The battle in the city is one of the most difficult, especially for armored vehicles, any armored vehicles. And, any armored vehicles are on fire, and a tank, an armored personnel carrier or an infantry fighting vehicle will burn, even at the "Mouse" base, with any armor, if the equipment is used illiterately. "Cardboard armor" is a cliche, hackneyed speculation, I will not argue that pickups with machine guns are taken by the city, but it is unlikely that success in street battles is only in thick armor and frontal attacks of heavy infantry-attack aircraft. BPM-3 is a good car, here I agree with you. As for the tank base, the point is that you can use the stocks of old tanks, use it wisely. Heavy armored personnel carrier and BMPT on a reliable, mastered base T-72 (T-90), this is a BMP divided by functions. The armored personnel carrier does not climb ahead of the tanks, the BMPT, having protection even better than the tank one, will perform specialized fire functions to support both tanks and their infantry. And, if we talk about the "joy for the sniper", then it is already purple, as there will be dismounting through the aft door or upper hatches, especially when the "joy for the grenade launcher" is added, which will fry the armored personnel carrier coming out ahead, pregnant with unhurried infantry. As for the BMO-T, we are talking about its basis, if you like, the car can be modified by improving the cover when dismounting, or by making a stern ladder following the example of the Akhzarit armored personnel carrier (based on our T-54 / T-55).
          1. Victor Wolz
            Victor Wolz 28 December 2015 20: 54
            -2
            on whose base is it to create assault brigades, if not on the basis of air assault brigades? One company can be left and an amphibious landing, for landing from helicopters, paragliders and other types of landing (buggies, rubber boats, etc.) Ahzarit is not bad, but already outdated, it has already been created (Armata is most likely his cousin) Yes, new armaments of the road - progress is always an expensive pleasure. Either the specter of the Crimean War will loom ahead or loom when they have not had time to build steamboats, railways and rifled rifles. The result is known.
    2. Skifotavr
      Skifotavr 29 December 2015 15: 05
      +1
      Quote: Victor Wolz
      The Airborne Forces are very expensive troops, but recently they have not been used for their intended purpose, for example, in Chechnya they acted as assault infantry. Maybe you need to cook motorized rifles better? And this despite the fact that we do not have heavily armored parts of attack aircraft with armatures and barrows. It is necessary to transfer part of the airborne divisions to attack aircraft, replacing lightly armored vehicles with armored personnel carriers and kurgans, and remove the parachute from training. Obvious things are obviously not suitable for the minds of the general, for whom these parts will obey once, and they will have to print new manuals for them and work, it is better to let the assault run and burn in its aluminum boxes.

      Airborne were widely used in hot spots because they were the most combat-ready. It is not necessary to transfer the Airborne Forces somewhere, but to increase the general level of combat readiness and equipment in the army.
    3. tso1973
      tso1973 30 December 2015 10: 00
      +1
      Offer to become a paratrooper infantryman, I think you will not live long after such an offer!)))
  4. k_ply
    k_ply 28 December 2015 15: 22
    +1
    Immediately stand up for the very concept of the Airborne Forces, below I will give some. aspects of conducting SAR *
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    Airborne troops are very expensive ...

    It is quite obvious that maintaining combat-ready equipment, weapons, infantry, with more shock (tank troops) and fire (artillery) power of motorized rifle (1 TP, 3 MSP), and even more so tank divisions (4 regiments: 2-3 tank, 1-2 MSP), which are heavy formations, is more expensive than the airborne division (2-3 infantry regiments, from 1/3 of the composition - infantry division on BMD), related to the so-called light formations. They are lightweight to facilitate the transfer and deployment to various theater of operations, where they later arrive, incl. railway transport, tank and motorized rifle units and formations. If necessary, the regional (district) command should strengthen the deployable parts of the airborne forces with tank and artillery units, ext. abnormal armored vehicles, BMP / BTR / MRAP, which should be practiced by exercises.
    1. Victor Wolz
      Victor Wolz 28 December 2015 20: 39
      -2
      It's funny to hear this) especially when you consider that the cost of the BMD-4 is clearly more expensive than the BMP-z, we recall the parachute systems, and according to Shamanov, the resource of equipment in the airborne forces is practically exhausted, i.e. will have to buy bmd-4, shell and octopus with nona (better of course vein but ...). Good systems and if we were as rich as the Soviet Union, then you can close our eyes to this, but unfortunately Russia stretches its legs for clothes.
      1. k_ply
        k_ply 29 December 2015 19: 30
        +1
        Quote: Victor Wolz
        It's funny to hear it) especially when you consider that the cost of BMD-4 is clearly more expensive than BMP-z ...

        And how funny it is to me! ... the troops are directly saturated with BMP-3 (BMD-4M> BMP-3M - a bike!), Which it turns out continue to be purchased, huh? Have you heard that the older the equipment is, the more expensive it is to maintain and maintain it in combat readiness? It is foolish to even compare the silk and slings of parachute systems and cargo platforms as an expensive load for the BP of 2-3 parachute regiments of the Airborne Division, only a third of the baht in which on the BMD ("... according to Shamanov, the resource of equipment in the airborne forces was practically exhausted ..."), and the rest of the bats are practically on foot, compare this with the cost of the entire range of artillery and rifle ammunition (clb. up to 152-mm) and missiles (MLRS, SAM, ATGM), fuels and lubricants (fuel) for 4 tank and motorized rifle TD / MSD regiments, 100% mobile. TD and MSD, as far as I remember, according to the experience of the SA exercises, even require more sorties of front-line and assault aviation, cover for fighter aviation from tactical NATO aviation, because they are fighting on the main axes with intense opposition enemy, otherwise large losses and loss of combat capability are guaranteed.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  5. k_ply
    k_ply 28 December 2015 15: 23
    +1
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    ... they are not used for their intended purpose, for example in Chechnya they acted as assault infantry.

    The winged infantry, by virtue of its specifics, is the assault infantry (remembering the unambiguous name odshbr and dshb), designed to capture and hold a bridgehead, well, not a court ceremonial, etc., and how it arrived in the district of DB (carrying out the operation) , by parachute or landing method, by marching in an armored column, whether on foot through a mountain pass, or even by sea as an amphibious assault on ships and boats of the Navy, all this is unimportant, just like the fact that the airborne forces are storming cities, mountains, coast. The same, by the way, as with respect to the Marines, who only have a smaller number of parachute landings with specific tasks, and with respect to motorized riflemen (and sappers of their ilk (platoons of engineering assault vehicles), by the way, be ashamed!: ".attack aircraftand not motorized riflemen and paratroopers ..."- before this,
    except for the III Reich, only schoolchildren could think of it on the basis of PC games), which in land-based databases are less limited in fire resources and in armor support, in contrast to the airborne forces and MP, for example, the weight limit of airborne equipment is 18 tons, floating - 22 tons.
    In the absence of operational and tactical need, or the impossibility of conducting airborne reconnaissance with capture and retention, parts of the airborne forces can be occupied in minor directions along the line of contact of the sides (front line), with difficult physical and geographical conditions (mountainous-wooded, mountainous-arctic, wooded marshy, conditional dense urban development), or for the protection and defense of the rear area of ​​troops and its objects from landing and sabotage groups of the enemy.
    Often, the presence of combat-ready units and formations of the airborne forces prevents the enemy from conducting active offensive databases, which involve exposing his own rear area and flanks (directions that are secondary to the enemy), which the command will not fail to take and will conduct air defense in its rear and flanks, the enemy will be forced to fight on two or more directions spraying their forces.
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    Maybe you need to cook motorized rifles better?

    Indeed, why are those who are intended to be for breaking the battle formations of the strongest armored and mechanized units of the enemy should be prepared worse? The main thing here is not to confuse the BP with the physical (and moral-psychological), the level of physical training and the requirements for the physical condition of the military personnel for obvious reasons are different in the so-called lungs (incl. parts of SPN) and severe formations. If I’m not mistaken, in the West it is accepted that in the light infantry units serves l / s (ordinary and sergeant) is slightly younger in age than in medium (motorized) and heavy (brt / mech.).

    * Airborne attack (as well as MDO) are carried out behind enemy lines, where its weakest units are. The conduct of air defense is preceded or coincides in time with the operation of front-line and fighter aviation to suppress the enemy air defense forces, gain air superiority, isolate the district of the DB (conducting air defense). ATCs with cargo and amphibious assault forces do not always fly "in a straight line" over the air defense positions, but can make a wide air coverage, bypassing the covered air defense zones. It is impossible to cover the air defense system in echelon (in depth) (including the large air defense missile system and medium range) the entire front line, incl. solid and conditional, with a length of several thousand km. VDO is also preceded by the activities of reconnaissance groups, including additional reconnaissance, isolation and cleaning of the drop zone from potentially dangerous threats (calculations of MANPADS and ZAU), or false distracting actions in another district.
    1. Victor Wolz
      Victor Wolz 28 December 2015 21: 22
      -2
      I understand the theory of the Airborne Forces, and my father served in the airborne troops, and I saw shots from exercises and films, the sky is beautiful in parachutes, but who will let you drop the division in the rear? Yes, the paratroopers themselves talk about this, with modern air defense systems it is almost impossible. But there are no specialized troops to storm fortified areas and cities.
      1. k_ply
        k_ply 29 December 2015 19: 35
        +2
        Quote: Victor Wolz
        ... who will let you land a division in the rear?

        Dragging an entire division? interesting! and how many waves / trains (not to be confused with the transfer)? Get involved! 1-2 BDG (bat. Des.gr.) in different areas of the landing will not work? then, on an increasing basis, with operational necessity and conditions, it strengthens to a regiment, brigade, division, and even then in a landing way.
        Quote: Victor Wolz
        Yes, the paratroopers themselves talk about this, with modern air defense systems it is almost impossible.

        Paratroopers? and probably conscripts? Isn’t aviation and its officers suppressing anti-aircraft defense systems, making flight routes for BTA aircraft? I hope you don’t need to talk about the thoroughness of planning the airborne navigation system? The airborne airborne forces always, and especially in the current conditions, only joint, with the participation of other types of armed forces and combat arms, do not carry out such operations automatically, and they only make up the 1st assault landing troop level, subsequent trains may already consist of others. military branches.
        Quote: k_ply
        * VDO (like MAO) are carried out behind enemy lines, where its weakest parts. The conduct of air defense operations is preceded or coincides in time by the operation of front-line and fighter aircraft to suppress enemy air defense forces, the achievement of superiority in the air, isolation of the district of the database (VDO). ATC with cargo and amphibious assault forces do not always fly "in a straight line" over the air defense positions, but can make a wide coverage in the air, bypassing the covered air defense zones. It is impossible to echelon (in depth) to cover an air defense system (incl. Long-range and medium-range air defense systems) the entire front line, incl. continuous and conditional, with a length of several thousand kilometers The VDO is also preceded by the activities of reconnaissance groups, including additional reconnaissance, isolation and cleaning of the emission zone from potentially dangerous threats (MANPADS and ZAU calculations), or false distracting actions in other districts.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  6. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 28 December 2015 20: 26
    -1
    For me, the stormtroopers are primarily those who storm the fortifications, and not the brown-shirt stormtroopers of Rem or the soldiers of Darth Vader. I do not like to call the grenadiers, is that better?))))
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. k_ply
      k_ply 29 December 2015 19: 42
      +1
      Quote: Victor Wolz
      For me, the stormtroopers are primarily those who storm the fortifications, and not the brown-shirt stormtroopers of Rem or the soldiers of Darth Vader. I do not like to call the grenadiers, is that better?))))

      Marines or motorized riflemen, paratroopers, marines, sappers (assault engineering equipment), chemists (flamethrowers from the RKhBZ (ZOMP) troops always arranged, without different youthful inventions.
      Separate "urbanization-assault" units (I'm afraid to even pronounce!), What kind of OShS will they have? and what does the OSHS of the existing motorized rifle, mountain rifle, airborne assault forces not suit you? not re-equipped with new and promising models - this is understandable, insufficiently trained - also understandable. Cities (which are different) ... entering and cleaning is not the same as storming, or do you dream of deliberately setting up the army? IFVs / armored personnel carriers (7-8 persons), even heavy vehicles are similar to targets in the narrow streets of the city, here they are mainly in the quality of armored personnel carriers (delivery of replenishment, ammunition, food, evacuation of the wounded, etc.), since are deprived of the operational space and maneuver joint with tanks, under your specialized units you will have to level the city to the ground, what ?: aviation, artillery, bulldozers (the IDF does so). The basis of the composition of tactical assault groups has long been determined: 1) MBT, here as an assault support weapon, guarded at least by a rifle platoon (airborne or motorized track, it does not matter); 2) a tank platoon (3-4 MBT, 1 in reserve) - for a rifle company, reinforced by a mortar fire platoon, an engineer-sapper unit (platoon-squad, including IMR), 1-2 flamethrower squads, a reconnaissance group (SPN).
  7. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 29 December 2015 22: 21
    -1
    If you have so beautifully described the composition of the tactical assault group, then you should be aware that co-ordinating it is faster if it is reduced to a separate unit (brigade, division), and not recruited from the pine forest.
  8. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 29 December 2015 22: 39
    -2
    It seems to me that the movement should be a rhombus or a Christmas tree and the first should go heavy.bmp (armata), the tank on the left or right side and further from the other side and the rear also heavy.bmp. Flamethrowers and snipers should be included in the tbmp and tbtr it would be nice to have mortar and artillery covers. support and helicopters. . infantry will always be hiding behind steel. And motorized riflemen must surround the enemy, their strength is in speed and onslaught, and the assault units that calmly drive up and solve the problem with the enemy must clean up the enemy surrounded in the city. This is a specialization, and you have tactical methods of the Soviet army of the times of 60-70 years.
  9. The comment was deleted.
  10. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 29 December 2015 23: 40
    -1
    The OSH of the assault brigade can be flexible, but the backbone of the equipment should consist of heavy equipment, tanks T-14,30 BMP-BTR T-15,80-BMP Kurgan and military equipment on the staff of the mechanized infantry division (air defense, artillery, rkhbz, Bridge layers, MTUs, etc. The preparation and uniform of soldiers should be appropriate for the task to be performed. Mandatory inclusion of snipers and flamethrowers in platoons. Population from 2000-2500.
    1. k_ply
      k_ply 2 January 2016 12: 58
      +1
      Quote: Victor Wolz
      The OShS of the assault brigade can be ... and the rest of the equipment on the staff of the motorized rifle division (air defense, artillery, rkhbz, ​​bridge spreader, MTU. And so on.

      How can the staffing of the division be dragged into the brigade? Is it still your brigade, or division, but with regimental strength? And, if they undertook to list the types of troops, then MTU is about engineering.
      From the basics of the organization of military (non-aviation and non-naval) formations, in descending order:
      - Associations: armies, corps
      - Compounds: divisions
      - Parts: brigades, regiments
      - Units: battalions (divisions), companies (batteries), platoons, squads (crews, crews).
      Since Soviet times, for reasons of secrecy, the locations of formations are not specified and are generally referred to as military units (military units, five-digit digital encoding, four-digit - in the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the FSB).
  11. k_ply
    k_ply 30 December 2015 17: 40
    0
    From everything it is clear that you have a poor idea of ​​what a unit is and what brigades and divisions are, which in turn have a typical set of units and subunits (combat, combat support, logistic support), but in a different number and ratio, you use the names military formations in disorder ("... separate unit (brigade, division) ..."), where is the unit, and where is the division? the difference is more than significant), and at the same time you undertake to give advice and recommendations. And you were not asked about the approximate exact number of equipment, because units of the branches of the armed forces and services have a strictly defined the number of weapons and equipment called standard, these states are standardized in the SV, Airborne Forces, and the Navy of the Navy, regardless of the type of formation they are part of (tank, motorized rifle, airborne, airborne assault, etc.). about OSHS you invented parts and what the existing structure does not suit you, the answer is zero! Even a fictional part should have an existing typical internal structure of subdivisions, which is practically unchanged since the times of the Union, which subdivisions and in what quantity (ratio) are supposed to be included is not clear. Initially, it was obvious that you do not understand this at all (hence the "cons"), but only "chopped the tops".
    The composition of the assault tactical groups was described to you, but it was not assumed that you were so unfamiliar with the tactics. What other constructions "herringbone" ("bearing") or "rhombus", and even more so their observance can be in the conditions of urban development (snatched) ?! where they don't turn around, you are no longer on the approaches to the city, you are not on Red Square or even on the avenue at best. And what other speed and pressure ?! Do you need to take Berlin by May 1 and finish off the wounded beast, or get yourself into a trap like in Grozny (1994-95)? Methodically and without shouting "hurray!", The infantry guards the tank from enemy RPG crews, i.e. infantry in front and on the flanks paves the way and gives targeting, the tank supports the infantry with fire, the soldiers cover themselves with the tank's armor only when crossing open areas, in other cases buildings and structures serve as cover, this is done so as not to concentrate all enemy fire on one object (in d. tank) and ourselves have the opportunity to conduct crossfire, when reconnaissance routes (streets, like arteries of the city), the infantry is again ahead, moving in two columns on both sides. The role of the BMP / BTR, except for the protection of the rear of the assault groups, has already been mentioned above, has not been read.

    And finally, let it be known to you that motorized rifle units and formations have the most, what you have already called the replicated word "flexible" structure, the most optimal for conducting a database in urban conditions and not only, tank units are less suitable due to the insufficient number of infantry and to a certain extent an excessive number of tanks, but they are optimal for conducting a database on flat terrain, which is called in the operational space. The fact that these units need re-equipment and an in-depth BP is as clear as day.
    Success in learning!
  12. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 30 December 2015 18: 44
    -1
    Thank you for wishing you success in studying the old Soviet charters, methods and instructions. It’s good that they didn’t offer me to study the tactics of the phalanx, the legion and the double coverage of the flanks from Hannibal))) Happy New Year !!!
  13. k_ply
    k_ply 30 December 2015 19: 02
    0
    And you with the coming! ...
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    ... the first should go heavy bmp (armata), the tank on the left or right side and further from the other side and the rear heavy bmp too.

    Perhaps phalanx, square, grenadiers, etc. will be closer to you! confuse the tactical scheme of interaction and coordination of assault groups with the tactical formation of battle formations of tanks and infantry fighting vehicles, for you then there is no difference.
  14. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 30 December 2015 22: 24
    -3
    You know, the order of movement in combat conditions in a city or in an open area is worked out during exercises and it is chosen by the unit commander (I just suggested how it could be). I have no doubt in your theoretical knowledge of the structure of motorized rifle and landing troops. But here is an example with Grozny as it is not at the box office. If you don’t remember, I’ll remind you that after the first unsuccessful war they started talking about heavy armored personnel carriers first about Akhzarit and then a little later about the type of Namer and our defense industry with a delay, but still gave birth to T-15 and Kurgan. But they don’t know which troops to equip with them. I suggested that they should be equipped with the PART of the most combat-ready troops, namely the air assault brigades, leaving one reinforced company there. What's so bad what do I propose to disarm the airborne units and transfer them to the construction battalion ???
  15. k_ply
    k_ply 2 January 2016 13: 01
    +1
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    You know, the order of movement in combat conditions in a city or in an open area is worked out during exercises and it is chosen by the unit commander (I just suggested how it could be).

    What other open area is there? visual interaction between groups due to the conditions is minimal, it seems like to hell with charters and instructions ?! what is called written in blood, you give the right to choose! huh? I repeat once again, all your suggestions from ignorance of the subject are not decided by the unit commander, do not be silly! decides the command planning the operation, i.e. the commander of the neighboring assault group is sure that, according to the operation plan, by 16:00 you should be at point (object on the map) "B", suppose you are far behind and bare his flank, moved arbitrarily to point "B" and now decided to regroup and act on your own, great! The commander will improvise when commanding a bdg or btg, acting in isolation (autonomously) from the main forces, without being tied to the flanks, i.e. not in conjunction with neighboring units. Better go back to your ancient phalanxes and medieval buildings!
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    If you don’t remember, I’ll remind you ...

    What do you remember, don’t remember, or just the chosen one know about the low security and survivability of domestic infantry fighting vehicles / armored personnel carriers, since the time of Afghanistan (the appearance of the BMP-2D)? What now do you want to convince? Or is it incomprehensible ?:
    Quote: k_ply
    ... even heavy vehicles are similar to targets on the narrow streets of the city, here they are mainly in armored personnel carriers (transportation of replenishment, ammunition, food, evacuation of the wounded, etc.), because deprived joint with tanks operational space and maneuver.
    The role of infantry fighting vehicles / armored personnel carriers, in addition to protecting the rear of assault groups, has already been mentioned above, have not been read.

    If you even read, then you probably don’t understand what. I explain in the conditions of the city (n / a) rear area troops conditional enough, security and protection of the rear communications are required (checkpoints, patrols), and l / s protection against attacks is required (from the fire of the rifleman and RPGs). In the rear there are database foci that need to be suppressed, with what? when tanks are self-employed on the front lines, the answer is obvious.
  16. k_ply
    k_ply 2 January 2016 13: 02
    +1
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    But they don’t know which troops to equip with them. I suggested that they should be equipped with the PART of the most combat-ready troops, namely the air assault brigades, leaving one reinforced company there. What's so bad

    "... don't know."Is it true ?! lol
    And again 25! dshbr will remain dshbr! landing and parachute training l / s. The Airborne Forces are of course universal, but not to the extent that there is a plug in every barrel. Leave the Airborne Forces alone, child, this is not a toy and is too subtle for your literal perception. And what is this confusion in your head? then "... are not used for their intended purpose, for example in Chechnya they acted as assault infantry."- earlier, and now? And you undertake to recommend your confusion for combat use? It has already been said ...
    Quote: k_ply
    ... the main thing is not to confuse the BP with the physical (and moral-psychological), the level of physical training and the requirements for the physical condition of the military for various reasons are different ...

    Boegotovs, yes, but it never occurred to me to call the Airborne Forces the most combat-ready, because of the extra. parachute and physical training with a melee, and besides air mobility there is ground mobility, which is insufficient and requires support, now full-time airborne and helicopter regiments are being introduced into the airborne forces.
    And this is yours "What's so bad"except for your and only your ignorance - nothing! just a cornucopia of stupidity, all my repeated crucifixions are past, extreme:
    Quote: k_ply
    ... motorized rifle units and formations have the most, what you have already called the replicated word "flexible" structure, the most optimal for conducting a database in urban conditions and not only. The fact that these units need re-equipment and an in-depth power supply is as clear as day.

    We do not see motorized rifle regiments and brigades (1 TB, 3 MSB on BMP)! What is the plug in your head? It is well known, but not to you, that BMPs are primarily infantry vehicles, or rather motorized infantry, less often engineer squads (before platoon) of heavy units. It’s completely incomprehensible how here the airborne assault brigade of the Airborne Forces with full-time airborne assault BMD and BTR-D (but only in 1 out of 3-4 battles), and at the same time there is also a separate reinforced airborne assault rifle, than reinforced then ?! Reinforced dshr can only be if it is included in a related baht., I.e. in dshb, whose full-time weapons, crews and crews are gaining strength. Fighting mouth in dshbr 9-12, and at the heart of any brigade (regiment) 3-4 combat battles (tb, mssb, dshb / pdb), it is from the ratio (number) of which this part gets its name (tank, motorized rifle, etc.). The composition of the brigades and regiments also includes a standard set of units of the combat arms and services, i.e. combat and logistics support (artillery, engineering, anti-aircraft, reconnaissance, communications, RChBZ (ZOMP), etc.), and in combat battles (except for TB) there is a mortar battery and platoons: grenade launcher (AGS), PT (ATGM ), anti-aircraft (MANPADS) reconnaissance, communications, medical, support. And where did you see here "... typed with pine forest"? It seems like the times of formation have passed in the 90s, do not understand what summary units and parts, due to lack of equipment and equipment. And you don’t have to invent anything, everything has long been invented and worked out by exercises and databases.
  17. k_ply
    k_ply 2 January 2016 13: 03
    +1
    So, the operation to seize the n / a is preceded by its blockade (encirclement), airmobile (dshb operating on helicopters) and heavy mobile (tank and motorized rifle) units are involved, then dismounting and forming assault groups proceed to the operation itself. Massive helicopter assault forces as part of a reinforced company (9-10 Mi-8, 4 Mi-24 - support) are capable of operating (landing) only in relatively open areas, but not in the city, here they are unacceptable. Why, when attacking a city and in the presence of airborne forces and airborne brigades (3-4 dshb), "naked" and, most importantly, a separate landing company as part of the mdbr? unclear! The MSBR has BMP / BTR, but no regular tr-des. helicopters, the command of the Airborne Forces have them. And where to get a platoon of tanks for a separate company? all tb tanks according to the staffing table are intended for the transmission of msb and msr, or what ?! now, in addition to TB, will we form a separate tank platoon in the brigade? your dshr won't even have a BMD and an BTR-D to provide and support.
    Yeah! it will be difficult to control in battle (control is one of the foundations of success) of non-standard military units and subunits, this is not the case in any army, such as its own "unique" OShS of each of the individual brigades and battles, nonsense! It is unlikely that it will be possible to form 3 standard battalions on the basis of a brigade with such an OShS, we now have a separate company registered in the brigades. The reconnaissance companies of the brigades, of course, are assigned by platoon battalions, but they are reconnaissance and for covert reconnaissance by small reconnaissance groups (4-6 people) and should not be massive and numerous. The tasks of your "naked" company, except for the police and the punitive ones, in the conditions of the assault, are incomprehensible.
    The tactics and principles of combat employment are directly linked to the OSh, when will it come ?! Hopefully at least those interested will benefit. It is said - study and read! do not write comments one more stupid than another, my obsessive friend! For example, it is ridiculous when room warriors and former non-participating conscripts stupidly instruct an Israeli with combat experience on topwar.

    PS: Do not minus, do not minus! quits.
  18. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 2 January 2016 16: 18
    -1
    I see that apparently you can only minus as a particularly knowledgeable one? What do you poke me with your OSH? Am I coming home from work will I write to you the Assault Brigade OSB? we have that the generals have already transferred, what are you babbling? They write to you that we have a lot of airborne divisions, which in case of war will fulfill infantry tasks. Is this apparently not clear to you? Are you criticizing me that I want heavily armored assault units to exist, they say they are not part of the OShS either airborne or motorized rifle, and why the heck do they want to enter tanks in the airborne forces ?? Will they be parachuted or on balls? I believe that the T-15 and the Kurgan should be combined into one division or brigade since putting them into motorized rifle units instead of BMP-2, BMP-3 will make this part too slow on the battlefield. and why did my company suddenly become naked? What should she act without the support of other armed BMP armata or Kurgan. You are a sir, a retrograde, the technology has advanced, and you have an OSh for another 60 years. So what's the truth brother? I also served in the army.
  19. k_ply
    k_ply 3 January 2016 10: 32
    +1
    "So what's the truth brother?"- you say? so here she is! wanted? get it ...
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    I see that apparently you can only minus as a particularly knowledgeable one?

    Malejo know. Are you so jealous that you won't get away? You are stupid however (do not see the dates and times of posts / last visit / presence indication in green), you are not blind! How did I manage to minus without logging into the site between last year's and penultimate (here from me there are 2 "-") posts?
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    What do you poke me with your OSH? Am I coming home from work will I write to you the Assault Brigade OSB?

    Woo! poor fellow, I understand that this is a great work when you don’t know a damn thing, right? So and do not write nonsense! When a person does not know and is not sure, he is silent. And who started it here about chewing snot about separate assault brigades? At the heart of any brigades one structure! ferstein? Speaking of the basics, they already wrote it to you, but you, our "attentive", did not notice ...
    Quote: k_ply
    Motorized rifle regiments and brigades (1 TB, 3 MSB on BMP) we do not see point blank! What is the plug in your head?

    Quote: Victor Wolz
    we have that the generals have already transferred, what are you babbling?

    I’m babbling straight! Well, if they themselves are not generals? and get rid of the airborne divisions with your opinions, room strategists, if you do not understand the concept, principles and methods of combat use of the airborne forces and their deterrent role. At the same time, you can conditionally add up all omsbr and otbr in 2-3 (- division), add the 2nd and 4th guard msd and so on, and calm down. Not the USSR, everyone hopes to be overlaid with divisions along the entire length of the borders, incl. South Siberia, Transbaikalia and D. Vostok. The introduction of percussion regiments and tr-des. Turntables, tanks to burn and a nook on the rear to churn, there will be no VDD prices (I recommend: http://desantura.ru/articles/25705/).
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    You criticize me here that I want heavy armored assault units to exist ...

    Ackte! they are, and require rearmament! how long to?! Yeah! "heavily armored"forehead, rare obstruction" founder-discoverer "assault.
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    Will they be parachuted or on balls?

    Landing is probably not even expected! And judging by your literal perception, the overseas marines Abramsa M1A1, apparently, floating.
  20. k_ply
    k_ply 3 January 2016 10: 33
    +1
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    I believe that the T-15 and the Kurgan should be combined into one division or brigade since putting them into motorized rifle units instead of BMP-2, BMP-3 will make this part too slow on the battlefield.

    Slow? Eco poked you! Tormented by nostalgia for the Red Army cavalry, with her then speed and onslaught? One (!) Division for the whole of the Russian Federation? even worse - if there is 1 brigade, it takes longing directly.
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    and why did my company suddenly become naked? What should she act without the support of other armed BMP armata or Kurgan.

    You doomed her out of ignorance! And how can you know without reading or understanding. Where did she draw your detached company? a question for inventors, not for me.
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    You are a sir, a retrograde, the technology has advanced, and you have an OSh for another 60 years.

    Yours is already secondary! who would be understood without a mother! And according to what criteria does Comrade Expert evaluate the outdated OSH or not ?: by the year of publication-re-publication of the charter? by the number of BM? even intrigued! Hots talk about tanks? only here in the acronym structure, be it BMP-1 / -2 or Kurganets-25 - the structure is unlikely to change, i.e. the number of infantry fighting vehicles will not change, which is the essence. The basics of the internal organization of formations are unchanged, we are looking for comparison overseas field manuals (ATP / ATTP / FM), or a file of the ZVO (heading 'To help the commander') for verification, advanced you are our Dunno.
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    I also served in the army.

    Self-confidence and demobilistic ambition stand out a little, with the miserable babble of Yakalki the amateur, still the infant. C is always like that, you chew them an elementary, and they also snort with displeasure, and here the General Staff Academy will be powerless.
    Good Luck!
  21. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 4 January 2016 14: 25
    0
    You know your rudeness and insults from the lack of normal arguments. And this convinces me of my complete truth. Unfortunately I am not the founder of the attack aircraft, the Germans came up with them during the First World War. Admit your attacks on me are connected only with the fact that you do not like the word attack aircraft; it necessarily takes on a brown or white hue. I am trying to explain to you that it is equivalent to the word grenadier, cuirassier, hussar for example. there is no ideological pumping, but it can be seen as peas against a wall.
  22. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 4 January 2016 14: 41
    -2
    Your caustic one attack team all over Russia, from not understanding that this is only the beginning. Yes, one for now, it needs to be trained, tested, supplemented with new elements. You find fault with me on trifles, then the company of paratroopers is not protected in any way, then it does not have equipment, then sappers, chemists, mortars and so on. If you understand this in such a way, then finish it in your imagination or the dogmas of OSh do not give you an opportunity. Think narrowly that you do not have innovative thinking, and for military affairs this is exactly what you need. So stop grumbling and join the cohort of stormtroopers).
  23. k_ply
    k_ply 4 January 2016 18: 30
    +1
    For your cohorts impassable arguments do not work, and there are enough of them on the page, then you can hide behind the word innovation, a slow-down (not otherwise) romantic dunno, who adjusted on all points and grabbed only the names, no more. And who would talk about narrow thought, you are our attack aircraft!
    And in parting, I’ll tell you to our dear infantician the thoughtless epic about some military names ...
    More than 30 separate tank and motorized rifle / motorized infantry brigades (massive heavy divisions are no longer affordable) were formed by "primitive" based on the combat experience of several generations of military professionals (probably the same primitive for you), both in the Russian Federation and many dozen similar (armored, mechanized, motorized) formations abroad, unaware of the advent of such an innovative genius, they are fools who have survived to our time (XXI) are accustomed to classifying heavy formations as shock ones, and any light rifle / infantry, incl. mountain, airborne and sometimes special forces - to assault, tk. It is difficult to call them shock for obvious reasons, but they are not parade-parquet, they seem to be fighting, and they must, using the conditions of the terrain, move forward and suddenly attack (by landing, landing), grab and bite into the bridgehead with everything that is, be then mountainous, forest, or built-up area, and wait for the approach of the shock. Well, it will not work for the Udany people suddenly and on a quiet 1st (assault) echelon, only the 2nd, then the main word is behind them when they come out onto the plain, and marching columns through mountains, forests, swamps, cities, you will not endure losses in technology and people, and you will lose time, not for them these conventional terrain, the infantry (paratroopers, huntsmen, or their own dismounted) will pave the way. For political reasons (emphasizing the defensive character of military doctrine), they did not consider it necessary to introduce the words assault and shock, with rare exceptions, in the names of the formations, sort of as a matter of course for them, for the pros, but then he came .. . Attention! innovator, and decided to turn everything upside down.
    In general, continue to be your own, if you are not given heed, it is too subtle for you!
  24. Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 5 January 2016 17: 20
    0
    Thanks for the advice, consider. Merry Christmas! And be calm, and people will reach you.
  25. k_ply
    k_ply 5 January 2016 18: 48
    0
    Original! 5th ?! also well-worn "... and people will reach you"Do not buy oak trees like you" for nothing, and don’t get money! "Well, since the sentimental tree itself persistently climbed out, and could not resist giving advice, I will continue ...
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    If you understand this in such a way, then finish it in your imagination or the dogmas of OSh do not give you an opportunity. Think narrowly that you do not have innovative thinking, and for military affairs this is exactly what you need.

    Who argues! that people like you infants have more than enough imagination, but there is not enough knowledge for military affairs.
    So, in the United States, as an experiment, not in separate brigades, but in mechanized brigades of divisions (helicopter brigades are included in American divisions), they introduced a pamba (infantry battalion.), An analogue of our dshb. After a while, they came to the conclusion that, within the framework of the DB, brigades, for the transfer by helicopters, if necessary, enough dismounted motorized infantry companies of 2 mbp, and for operations in the divisions' range of action and in the interests of divisions, specialized landing troops are enough (for example, support by the 101- 3rd Air Assault Division of the 2003rd Mechanized Division in Iraq, XNUMX) Everything turned out to be very simple, my narrow-minded friend. As already mentioned, there is no need to invent anything, everything has long been invented and worked out by exercises and databases.
    At least until the baht it was not enough to think of? they even suggested that the bat-s brigades, not the company, were at the core. For yourself, turn to the legions, if you like, and dream on, child.
    Quote: Victor Wolz
    I am unfortunately not the founder of attack aircraft they were invented by the Germans during the first world.

    We Vitya is not an infant, just an overgrowth, a kind of smoking brake pad of a locomotive. The guy is far from advanced, limited to Wikipedia somewhere between the two world wars, with millions of armies and weapons of that period (there’s no need to talk about tanks and infantry weapons of the first world), but this is a dark forest for him, that's why they’ll climb out the grenadiers and stormtroopers from his moron, delayed in the development of his head.
    And for obsession and stupidity, keep a simple Russian fuck!