Military Review

In Germany, concerned about the possible results of the court of Russia and Ukraine on debts

121
If you look at the latest publications in the German media ("Finanzmarktwelt", "Süddeutsche Zeitung", "Deutsche Welle"), then it becomes clear: the Germans began to be very disturbed by the outcome of court proceedings between Russia and Ukraine.




And, oddly enough, the Germans are not worried that Russia will win the trial in the same Hague, but that it will lose.

An original precedent is created in front of the whole of Europe: the debtor gets the right not only not to repay debts, but also to take new loans!

The concern of the Germans is quite understandable. Yes, in 2014, Germany threw 1,6 billion euros into Ukraine. And this debt is quite self-sufficient.

The largest investor holding Ukrainian sovereign Eurobonds is the American investment fund Franklin Templeton Investments. In August, the Fund 2013 bought the eurobonds of Ukraine for 5 billion dollars, which correlated with 20% of the total external debt of Ukraine.

Other foreign investors include Ukraine, Goldman Sachs, Wellington Managment Group, Fidelity International, Allianze SE, AVIVA Funds, Nomura Asset Management. Together, they are holders of 8,9 billion dollar Ukrainian bonds.

These are the ones who will be the first to stand "at the box office." Yes, there is also the IMF, which lent Ukraine more than 10 billion dollars over two years, but one should not forget that Germany is also a member of the IMF, although not as large as the United States. That is why the Germans are concerned.

But the Germans are concerned not so much with the Ukrainians, who have already earned a reputation as some inadequate partners. The headache of the Germans are the Greeks. Greece owes Germany 64,9 billion euros. The amount itself is so huge that Ukrainian debts pale before it.

The question arises: if the IMF went to such a significant change in its policy to address even a non-EU member, then where is the guarantee that such eternal debt debtors like Greece, Portugal, Italy will not want to use this precedent?

Consider the ratios of external debt to GDP:

Greece - 183%.
Portugal - 148%.
Italy - 139%.
Belgium - 135%.
Spain - 132%.
Ireland - 115%.

And the pragmatic Germans understand the difference between this list of EU member states, and Ukraine, which, when it becomes a "European" ...

You can, of course, rely on European culture and an understanding of the processes taking place in some countries. But the Greeks really really have nothing to lose, and what happened was gone "to external control." Inspired by the actions of Ukraine, the Greeks will be quite able to afford to take the Ukrainian path and dig another Aegean Sea. In which it will be possible to sink 65 billionth Greek debt.

Here are the Germans and worried.

And if the Hague court does not recognize Russia as a right (and this may well be the case), then such strange debtors as Ukraine can openly have room for action. To whom we want, we give it to him. We have to - and we decide.

“Have you ever heard before that a debtor would set a time limit for his creditor in which he should renounce his claims, and otherwise he would have threatened to sue? Is this even possible somewhere? ”

This is from an article in the German "Financial World".

According to journalists of the German edition, the question of the relationship between the creditor and the debtor here is not in the political plane, but in the legal one. The Germans believe that the borrower "is obliged to behave politely and objectively, especially if he needs to mitigate the terms of payments. But so that he insists, demands and sets deadlines? Rarely do you see this!"

Come on, "Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren", dear, if in Russian. You did not trade gas with the Ukrainians, that’s where the German nerves would break like strings!

But the fact that Germany began to gradually reflect on the future prospects of the policies pursued by the IMF is already a good thing. There is still time. While the Greek fig is still ripening on the branch.
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  1. venaya
    venaya 23 December 2015 06: 11 New
    45
    Germans are not worried that Russia will win the court in the same Hague, but that they will lose ... where is the guarantee that eternal European debtors like Greece, Portugal, Italy will not want to use this precedent?

    Principle: "own shirt is closer to the body" in this case works completely. If we are talking about case law, then here the Germans get into very, very big financial troubles, naturally they were the first to get worried.
    1. Tatar 174
      Tatar 174 23 December 2015 06: 27 New
      19
      Quote: venaya
      Principle: "own shirt is closer to the body" in this case works completely

      Apparently it will be so. This mess is brewing in the world ... It remains to wait for nothing and there is a high probability that no one will give loans to anyone else.
      1. Mik13
        Mik13 23 December 2015 06: 58 New
        29
        Quote: Tatar 174
        it is likely that no one will give loans to anyone else.


        Absolutely.
        By the way, the decision of the IMF that it is possible to lend default to debtors does not at all mean that there are those who wish.

        I, too, may allow unemployed homeless alcoholics to lend. Although, nobody in fact forbids them to lend. But for some reason those who wish are not observed.
        1. Tatyana
          Tatyana 23 December 2015 08: 31 New
          71
          Ha! If Russia does not win the court on debt repayment by Ukraine, then Germany will lose in reality too! Germans will not repay loans to themselves!
          But the most important and interesting thing is that the USA can also tell all of its lenders and say that “We will not repay debts!” Maybe this is exactly what the USA is striving for ?!
          1. What a
            What a 23 December 2015 11: 10 New
            25
            You are 100% right, it is the Americans who need the Ukrainian precedent, they have the most debts. So they decided to throw everyone.
            1. kocclissi
              kocclissi 23 December 2015 14: 46 New
              11
              Quote: Tatiana
              But the most important and interesting thing is that the USA can also tell all of its lenders and say that “We will not repay debts!” Maybe this is exactly what the USA is striving for ?!

              Well yes! To whom I owe, I forgive! Beginning of the End?
          2. 4 wheels
            4 wheels 23 December 2015 11: 45 New
            29
            Quote: Tatiana
            it is to THIS US and seek

            Yes, it’s obvious!
            Try to imagine ... almost 20 TRILLION of debt and moreover, the debt is only growing like a snowball and the states are not even trying to put themselves on a "diet", but on the contrary - they are increasing their expenses. their banking system is becoming like a soap bubble. And here you don't need to be a tough financier ...
            As Piglet said: "What is it that boom? And where is my balloon?" request
            1. Bakht
              Bakht 23 December 2015 12: 03 New
              +8
              The 14th Amendment to the US Constitution

              Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States authorized by law, including debts incurred to pay pensions and rewards for service in the suppression of rebellion or rebellion, is not called into question. But neither the United States nor any state should accept any obligations or pay debts related to assisting a rebellion or rebellion against the United States, or acknowledge any claim related to the loss or release of any slave; All such debts, obligations and claims must be considered illegal and invalid.

              Strictly speaking, the States don't give a damn about debt. They are not required to pay if Congress decides that the actions of China or the Russian Federation harm the United States.
              The structure of the US debt is 12 billion external debts and only 5 billion internal. And the inside can wait. So the whole conspiracy thesis that the States can take advantage is unlikely to be justified.
              1. Tatyana
                Tatyana 23 December 2015 13: 52 New
                +9
                Bakht
                Strictly speaking, the States don't give a damn about debt. They are not required to pay if Congress decides that the actions of China or the Russian Federation harm the United States.
                Well yes! And here the main thing for the USA is the presence of a historical precedent in the world in general, when the debtor refuses to pay to the creditor! And Ukraine is very suitable for this - in all respects. And so it is not in vain that Ukraine yells that Russia is an "aggressor"!
                This personal - constitutional - move by the United States alone can take place with the Amers under the guise of regular sanctions against Russia, which do not need to be agreed with any other countries at all - if the IMF decides and extends its decision on Ukrainian default to all other countries.
                1. Tatyana
                  Tatyana 23 December 2015 14: 25 New
                  +6
                  In principle, any war between the two countries breaks in fact between them all previous obligations. But if earlier historically this concerned only a hot war ("hot" aggression), then in this case we are talking about the so-called. "Passive" aggression - this is when open hostilities between each other between countries are not conducted - namely, when the confrontation between them is hidden, not explicit, secret, "undercover" subversive diplomatic in nature.
                  The IMF’s decision essentially untie the hands of the strong aggressor in new ways of waging a modern war - it takes the war itself to a new OPEN level - to the information and diplomatic level.
                  1. Tatyana
                    Tatyana 23 December 2015 15: 00 New
                    +1
                    In the new so-called “Hybrid war” it is assumed that not only the media on the information front will shoot at the enemy’s economy in peacetime, but also banks from their financial instruments, i.e. of constancy and changes in the rules for issuing and repaying loans.
                    1. ssergn
                      ssergn 23 December 2015 20: 55 New
                      +5
                      First, for starters, the IMF recognized Ukrov's debt to the Russian Federation as state. If you would like to cheek - just would change the status of the debt. And so it turns out that they themselves were prescribed extra hemorrhoids.
                      Secondly, if the states throw someone on a large scale, and the largest are far from us for a long time, it is unlikely that they will easily receive new loans. And they understand this themselves, because they are not fools.
                      Thirdly, about the total external debt of the Russian Federation in the know? Do you understand what's what? And then, you know, it can turn out like with Kosovo. And they also understand that we understand it. laughing Why the hell should we untie our hands?
                      And the fourth, Ukrainina yells then yells, only officially does not declare a state of war, although they are morons, but not to the same extent.
                  2. shpilkerman
                    shpilkerman 25 December 2015 11: 52 New
                    -1
                    This is what Putin expects, as I think. Putin always follows the rules, even if they are written by the enemy. Here the enemy himself tears the contract and unties Putin’s hands. And here is the Central Bank and politics. If the Central Bank is nationalized now, there will be bad boom in Russia, simply put, but here the aggressor in the person of the United States itself gives the right to replace the Central Bank. request
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Vlad5307
                Vlad5307 23 December 2015 20: 30 New
                +3
                You have a mistake - SGA debts are in the trillions, not billions, as in wassat you!
              4. PValery53
                PValery53 2 January 2016 19: 58 New
                0
                Quote: Bakht
                The structure of the US debt is 12 billion external debts and only 5 billion internal.

                - You, rather, did not mean billions, but trillions of dollars of US debt. (1000 times difference)
            2. Evrepid
              Evrepid 23 December 2015 16: 14 New
              +4
              I suspect that the decision to not return the borrowed money will apply only to the Russian Federation. Those. money can not be returned only to the Russian Federation.
              Based on the fact that the Russian Federation holds money in Mani Payne, etc. it turns out very cool for the United States and other Western countries. :)

              But in general, I very much laughed at one phrase from an American film:
              "Mexico agreed to give part of its territory to the United States, in exchange for the US forgiving Mesxica's debt" ...
              Why was he laughing? Because the situation is this: The entire territory of the United States has turned into an icy desert. Those. in fact, the country ceased to exist. And then the perishing state says: "I will forgive you the debt!" And if you think about it: The borrower is dead! There is no one to return the debt! No commitment! :)

              And in the film, Mexico agrees to give up its territory for the forgiveness of this debt. :) Not funny?
              1. BARKHAN
                BARKHAN 24 December 2015 19: 18 New
                +1
                The film is called "The Day After Tomorrow" ... And there I liked how Americans climbed over the fence with trunks to get to Mexico. The emigration went in the opposite direction.
              2. HU YOUR
                HU YOUR 25 December 2015 14: 06 New
                +1
                I suspect that the decision to not return the borrowed money will apply only to the Russian Federation. Those. money can not be returned only to the Russian Federation.
                stop
                I think that you are right and this will not apply to other countries. The logic here is completely simple and clear. love
            3. vic58
              vic58 23 December 2015 16: 59 New
              +1
              Sorry, almost 67 .... and ento is no longer a ball hi
              PS: every dead raccoon must be provided with something
          3. Lukich
            Lukich 23 December 2015 14: 05 New
            +6
            Quote: Tatiana
            But the most important and interesting thing is that the USA can also tell all of its lenders and say that “We will not repay debts!” Maybe this is exactly what the USA is striving for ?!

            a trial pebble was thrown. and now sasha is tracking the reaction
          4. vic58
            vic58 23 December 2015 16: 56 New
            -1
            Yeah! And the Fed will be delighted: invented universal toilet coupons! laughing
            Yen steers!
          5. cheap trick
            cheap trick 23 December 2015 21: 51 New
            +1
            as already stated that the states are not going to repay debt since they protect everyone and they put off money to protect the whole world! in how))))
          6. EFA
            EFA 24 December 2015 16: 24 New
            0
            The world financial system is too complex a mechanism for such a "simple" way out. And Germany in any case has a greater chance of a positive court decision in its favor than Russia, a policy of double standards.

            Take a break why - I think it will not be difficult.
          7. dog78
            dog78 27 December 2015 11: 54 New
            0
            The circuit will work - all I have to do is forgive
        2. The comment was deleted.
          1. Temples
            Temples 23 December 2015 13: 22 New
            -13
            After all, the United States can also tell all of its lenders and say that “we will not repay debts!” Maybe it is to THIS USA and seek ?!

            What nonsense !!!
            US government debt 18,796 trillion. (on the counter for this minute)
            2015 US GDP 17,419 trillion

            Stop talking nonsense about US debt already.

            They themselves can allow such a debt !!!
            Compare with their GDP before gulping.

            Therefore, those who want to lend to them, and not those who want to take money, line up in a queue.
        3. KCA
          KCA 23 December 2015 15: 28 New
          +1
          in fact, most likely this is the case, permission was given, the debtors began to get excited, the wave started, and money is money, just like that nobody will throw them into a black hole
      2. Scandinavian
        Scandinavian 23 December 2015 08: 28 New
        23
        Kakly from the principle do not pay Russia, the rest as sucked and will suck. They will pay everyone except Russia, we know their flaky ones for the whole long history.

        PS Hero sala!
        1. marlin1203
          marlin1203 23 December 2015 10: 12 New
          +6
          Throw us a "campaign" .... again ... No.
          1. Suhow
            Suhow 23 December 2015 17: 28 New
            +4
            if Ukraine is allowed to not pay the debt of the Russian Federation, then the Russian Federation can refuse to pay too. Aggression. and, on the other hand, sanctions and biases of judges. But I think permission to not pay sovereign debt = permission not to pay debts and other countries ...
          2. cheap trick
            cheap trick 24 December 2015 00: 33 New
            0
            and they always throw someone ??? I would have looked as if they were telling the states, you’ll go away, we won’t give you the debt, we will sue you and finally write down the sanctions!
        2. Lukich
          Lukich 23 December 2015 14: 09 New
          16
          Quote: Scandinavian
          PS Hero sala!

          since there is a motto, then there must be a flag.
        3. unfriendly
          unfriendly 23 December 2015 20: 06 New
          +7
          At the end of the contract, turn off the gas, and do not develop new contracts until the full repayment of the debt. And labor migrants from Ukraine who are not residents of the DPR / LPR - tomorrow kick to their homeland. Did I come up with a cool one? bully
          1. ty60
            ty60 23 December 2015 23: 18 New
            +1
            Transcarpathia falls tightly. And they built a lot in our north.
      3. Oleneboy_
        Oleneboy_ 24 December 2015 08: 09 New
        0
        Putin made a mistake by occupying Khokhlov. In general, stop borrowing everyone. The crisis itself
    2. Aleksander
      Aleksander 23 December 2015 06: 41 New
      10
      Quote: venaya
      If we are talking about precedent law, then the Germans are in very, very big financial trouble

      They won’t get anywhere. The West itself sets the rules of the game and the fact that the Greeks will not be allowed to ruin and think.
      1. jjj
        jjj 23 December 2015 12: 04 New
        +4
        I’m watching how modern Western politicians behave and I understand that their approach is not different from the Ukrainian one.
    3. ZKB
      ZKB 23 December 2015 13: 15 New
      +5
      I like another topic in this situation: for the third decade already, the entire West and many representatives of the "progressive" in Russia in every possible way declare about the "traditional" Russian handshake in everything and the impeccability of the West. in any questions. but in reality it turns out differently .. the West is trying more and more carefully to fuck Russia, Putin, and the more diligently it tries, the more ass it is itself. The proven schemes do not work, they give the opposite effect. Europe chopped off Ukraine ... So much so that the best (Crimea) went to Russia, and the problems, the Nazis, debts, gas hunger (or cold) to Europe ... And the state, where in the government the patients of ward number 3 are a time bomb, today they beg for money, tomorrow they won't give it back, and the day after tomorrow they will make it so that you don’t give money, it will be worse for you .. extortion within the EU)))
  2. meriem1
    meriem1 23 December 2015 06: 14 New
    19
    Wow news ... The Germans are floating out of illusory dreams ??? But the Germans are not an equal sign with Merkel !!! Audible words only from Sarochka Vagenknekht heard!
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 December 2015 06: 19 New
      12
      Quote: meriem1
      The Germans sail out of illusory dreams ??

      Yes, they don’t come out anywhere, as they walked under amers, they will walk. The situation in the world is such that no one understands anything and the rules no longer exist. Yes, and the courts have become fictitious. In any case, we will not impoverish 3 lards and Ukraine will not be richer. ZTS is now much more important for Ukraine, default and other things.
      1. Kasym
        Kasym 23 December 2015 12: 31 New
        +6
        Come on Germans. Ukraine is more important to us. And here interesting events are brewing.
        Kiev will not give back debt, especially interest on a loan and gas, which it downloaded for free. But what's next? Winter is in the yard, and where to get the missing gas (the EU’s reverse will not allow it in winter), coal, and especially TVELs (there is no alternative here)? Oil, for example, is dragged by tankers (although it’s not clear where to take the dibs, but it’s Kolomoisky’s headache at his refinery). Well, they will find money for them, they will fill in the prepayment of the Russian Federation - but Moscow can simply arrest this money. Moreover, they by their actions with power lines for the Crimea, the GDP just angered. The Kremlin with NG will close trade for Kiev.

        Well, they will find an alternative in other places. But it will be definitely more expensive. And these 3,5 billion over time will be flowers compared to this difference. Here is a breakdown, so a breakdown.

        I wonder how the GDP and Poroshenko will act with Co.? I think that GDP will no longer give a freebie to Kiev (as it was at the beginning of the year for gas). The EU and the IMF are not visible on the horizon, private investors are definitely frostbite from any plans for Ukraine. And now what should Waltzmann do with Co.? Okay, this winter, and the next (when the sanctions on Ukraine work)? It turns out that buying from Russia is a very risky business for Kiev. And what will happen to the NPP if the Amer TVELs are not suitable (there have already been two cases in the Czech Republic and Ukraine) - stop it over time? Currency inflows to Ukraine are slowing due to lower trade.
        All housing and communal services of Ukraine depends on the mercy of the Kremlin, but will GDP save it or not? hi
        1. lelikas
          lelikas 23 December 2015 13: 27 New
          +4
          Quote: Kasym
          Come on Germans. Ukraine is more important to us. And here interesting events are brewing.

          You think? Last year - the feeling that Moscow simply can’t get rid of it, as if it were super glue in its hands - and already bypasses the pipes and imposes sanctions, it remains to enclose it with a wall itself, only a major one, ten bricks thick. And they push it back to us - then they will block one pipe, then the second - a paradox.
          1. ty60
            ty60 23 December 2015 23: 22 New
            0
            Laundry works on the model of the 90s. This is today the main function of Dill.
          2. CAMS
            CAMS 24 December 2015 04: 48 New
            0
            It is thought that problems with the West and Ukraine will subside over the 19th year. The pipe will reach China, a new gas agreement will be concluded with Europe. Then they themselves will run away from ukrov, and even now the Germans are not in vain push2.
  3. Wolka
    Wolka 23 December 2015 06: 17 New
    +7
    that's what it means to dance to someone else's tune ...
  4. Stas157
    Stas157 23 December 2015 06: 26 New
    41
    The fact that in Ukraine default only in Russia shout! But in Ukraine there is no default, no consequences from it! The hryvnia, as 22 was worth a dollar a year ago, is worth it. They themselves say this is not a default, but a rejection of the obligations of a single country. And the West supports them in this!
    I remember when 3 billion were given to Ukraine they wrote that it’s absolutely safe, we will need this debt for two or three times, just like there is no double penalty with Mistral! But in fact, what?
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 23 December 2015 06: 41 New
      +4
      Quote: Stas157
      The fact that in Ukraine default only in Russia shout! But in Ukraine there is no default, no consequences from it!

      From where the default will now be, there a delay of 10 days was given under the contract.
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 23 December 2015 06: 54 New
        +3
        That is, after 10 days, you say there will be a default, and the hryvnia will collapse?
        1. Lelek
          Lelek 23 December 2015 09: 44 New
          +5
          Quote: Stas157
          That is, after 10 days, you say there will be a default, and the hryvnia will collapse?


          Remember, the Great Ruin is a very special country. In plain text, STEAL 3,5 lard for her nishtyak. And the fact that they will declare a default will be transferred to some lower level of the rating, the Kiev godfathers don't care. The goat-bearded leader will spit out several millionaires to maintain the trousers of the "elite" - and okay (who signed up to maintain the trousers of the rest of the 43 million population? That's right - nobody.) Europe will do everything to ensure that the money is not returned to kakly and thus will sign themselves an agromous hemorrhoid ...
          (cry.)
          1. goose
            goose 23 December 2015 12: 53 New
            +3
            Do they have too many legislative acts "that change everything"? This is a sure sign of anarchy.
        2. Albert1988
          Albert1988 23 December 2015 15: 41 New
          +8
          Quote: Stas157
          That is, after 10 days, you say there will be a default, and the hryvnia will collapse?

          Ha, but do you know why in Ukraine they still give 22 hryvnias for 1 green? Not because everything is good in the economy, but because the government decree froze the hryvnia at such a level and severely limited the official sale of foreign currency.
          Familiar from Ukraine here brought the news that the dollar had already exceeded the dollar for 30 hryvnias over the black currency market and continued to grow, and almost did not buy currency in official exchangers ...
          1. Kars
            Kars 23 December 2015 15: 43 New
            +3
            Quote: Albert1988
            that they have long passed the dollar for the 30 hryvnia over the black currency market and continue to grow, and almost never buy currency in official exchangers

            your friends mislead you.
            1. ty60
              ty60 23 December 2015 23: 25 New
              +1
              Relatives came from dill. hi
          2. user1212
            user1212 23 December 2015 15: 58 New
            +2
            Quote: Albert1988
            Familiar from Ukraine here brought the news that the dollar had already exceeded the dollar for 30 hryvnias over the black currency market and continued to grow, and almost did not buy currency in official exchangers ...

            http://kurs.com.ua/ там есть т.н. "комерческий курс", который расчитывается на основании курса доллара на черном рынке Киева и международном рынке форекс. А на http://finance.i.ua/market/kiev/ можно посмотреть предложения "черного рынка"
          3. Stas157
            Stas157 23 December 2015 17: 11 New
            +2
            Quote: Albert1988
            Familiar from Ukraine here brought the news that the dollar had already exceeded the dollar for 30 hryvnias over the black currency market and continued to grow, and almost did not buy currency in official exchangers ...

            You know, at the MICEX in the derivatives section hryvnia is trading about 25 hryvnias per dollar. And at FOREX, the hryvnia is trading at 22,8. So you yourself and your friends from Ukraine can buy currency through a broker at any time.
    2. 33 Watcher
      33 Watcher 23 December 2015 06: 49 New
      22
      So default, this is not what I want to declare, I want not. You can call it whatever you like, you can generally be silent (as Ukraine does). The thing is different, in an insolvent state, they don’t invest money, private investors will pack their suitcases, and scatter along with their money, far away from such state. That’s the default. Stupidly there is no money, there are none of their own, and no one invests strangers, and does not give loans.
    3. Mik13
      Mik13 23 December 2015 06: 55 New
      +7
      Quote: Stas157
      The fact that in Ukraine default only in Russia shout! But in Ukraine there is no default, no consequences from it! The hryvnia, as 22 was worth a dollar a year ago, is worth it. They themselves say this is not a default, but a rejection of the obligations of a single country. And the West supports them in this!

      Default - this is a disclaimer. By definition.

      And about the lack of consequences - have you been there for a long time? And then, according to my information, the population is in a deep .... crisis, basically. And everyone knows for sure that it will be much worse further.
      1. Stas157
        Stas157 23 December 2015 07: 15 New
        +3
        Quote: Mik13
        Default - this is a disclaimer. By definition.

        And about the lack of consequences - have you been there for a long time? And then, according to my information, the population is in a deep .... crisis, basically. And everyone knows for sure that it will be much worse further.

        Definitions I know. I wrote how Ukraine and the West determine the present! Namely, Ukraine does not refuse obligations in principle, and even agreed to restructuring with everyone, but refuses only to a single country, Russia, for political reasons! Yes, in Ukraine it will be worse, but the West does not recognize default. One of the most detrimental consequences of default is the collapse of the nat. currencies. But this did not happen.
        1. bootlegger
          bootlegger 23 December 2015 08: 50 New
          +9
          In fact, default there already happened 2 years ago, along with the Maidan. Then, having won back the expectations, the hryvnia collapsed 3 times. It is not difficult to tighten the nuts on the exchange, tightening the rules for trading in hard currency. For some time ....
          In the Russian Federation, this also happened, in the period 96-98, what ended then I think, remember.
          Let's see how much the hryvnia will cost in a year, after that, when even the IMF will lose patience. In the end, everything is just beginning and there are very depressing examples in the world.
          In Zimbabwe, for example, a can of beer on July 4, 2008 at 17:00 local time cost 100 billion Zimbabwean dollars, an hour later it began to cost 150 billion ....
          1. 97110
            97110 23 December 2015 16: 26 New
            +2
            Quote: bootlegger
            In Zimbabwe, for example,

            I had a case in Istanbul. I was leaving the hotel, I didn’t understand anything in the A3 invoice in Turkish. I understood when I saw an 11-digit number in lira in the invoice (3 digits - a dot and 2 digits after), and a friend who worked in Istanbul left at the reception. Mumbling that this is $ 1000. He returned joyful after learning that it was $ 100. Lira was then 120 per dollar.
        2. ssergn
          ssergn 23 December 2015 21: 08 New
          0
          Quote: Stas157
          even agreed on restructuring with everyone


          These are, so-called commercial, those private debts. Debt to the Russian Federation is a public debt. And more recently, it was confirmed by none other than the IMF, but who has the largest share there ?. So kaklam will be frostbitten in court as if not easy. The only option is to declare war on the Russian Federation. Yes, it is possible, but if they sell it? (at sarcasm if cho) laughing
        3. unfriendly
          unfriendly 23 December 2015 23: 03 New
          +1
          And let them not recognize anything, and tell everyone that the creditor-aggressor has grown, and they don’t owe us anything lol (in your words, let "define the present") The most interesting thing is how they DEFINE the future there ??? From the fact that the Maidan harlequins recognize the debt to the Europe-IMFs of money, then they are not expected, Kalomoskin will be given a galley? laughing

          Spring will show who where the cocoa ...
    4. Belousov
      Belousov 23 December 2015 09: 22 New
      +9
      Quote: Stas157
      The fact that in Ukraine default only in Russia shout! But in Ukraine there is no default, no consequences from it! Hryvnia, as it cost 22 a dollar a year ago, is worth it. They themselves say this is not a default, but a rejection of the obligations of a single country.

      Well, as they call it themselves - this is solely their problem, this does not change the essence of the matter. Yes, sharp changes in the hryvnia exchange rate did not happen, but just because an actual, and not a legal default on the Ruin for a long time, is like making 9 control shots to the head, and then surprising that there is no reaction to the tenth shot.
    5. Belousov
      Belousov 23 December 2015 09: 22 New
      0
      Quote: Stas157
      The fact that in Ukraine default only in Russia shout! But in Ukraine there is no default, no consequences from it! Hryvnia, as it cost 22 a dollar a year ago, is worth it. They themselves say this is not a default, but a rejection of the obligations of a single country.

      Well, as they call it themselves - this is solely their problem, this does not change the essence of the matter. Yes, sharp changes in the hryvnia exchange rate did not happen, but just because an actual, and not a legal default on the Ruin for a long time, is like making 9 control shots to the head, and then surprising that there is no reaction to the tenth shot.
    6. Alekspel
      Alekspel 23 December 2015 12: 45 New
      0
      But in fact, something that some Kudrin, who has not been an official person for a long time, signed the papers, and he gave the money, not his own, but state money, that is, ultimately from our pocket. Then we don’t have enough for retirement, and bloodsuckers-bankers will give mortgages to our children at furious interest, if they will. How much money was written off to different Cubes, and so on, black-and-white, who did not even think of repaying debts. And try not to give some of our citizen a debt, so the collectors will smear it on the wall, because here the money is from a private bank, that is, bourgeois ones.
  5. Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 23 December 2015 06: 30 New
    10
    Greeks well done. Do not get lost. They bought a Lexus and ask for more dough.
    And they say that the Germans owe them for the occupation. Well, they fought after all for two weeks during World War II.
  6. Riv
    Riv 23 December 2015 06: 37 New
    15
    Do you know what scares me? Ulyukaev said that Russia will win a court on Ukrainian debts.
    1. KUOLEMA
      KUOLEMA 23 December 2015 06: 40 New
      0
      Yeah, and if it does?
    2. Vladimir 1964
      Vladimir 1964 23 December 2015 07: 58 New
      17
      Quote: Riv
      Do you know what scares me? Ulyukaev said that Russia will win a court on Ukrainian debts.


      This, colleague, not only scares you. When Ulyukaev utters something, half of Russia, willingly or unwillingly, shudders, "feeling the next bottom from under their feet." negative hi
  7. parusnik
    parusnik 23 December 2015 06: 44 New
    +6
    While the Greek fig is still ripening on a branch... And not only ... Harvest FIG promises to be plentiful ...
  8. Roust
    Roust 23 December 2015 06: 44 New
    +5
    It's only the beginning. "Surprises" of dill are yet to come. Impudence goes off scale, it's like: dill are knocking on the door of a geyropa "- You don't have water, otherwise you want to eat so much that there is no place to sleep?" ...
  9. 27091965
    27091965 23 December 2015 06: 49 New
    +5
    The Ukrainian problem was created not only against Russia, but also against the EU. They would solve their problems, but then they threw another cuckoo. Now they don’t know what to do.
  10. srelock
    srelock 23 December 2015 06: 49 New
    +2
    These 3 "yards", no one, really, is not going to return. We would like to return this money, we would not allow the termination of lending. This is an important part of the Minsk agreements, designed to cut off, in conjunction with other economic sanctions, the financing of military operations in Ukraine.
  11. Andrey NM
    Andrey NM 23 December 2015 06: 50 New
    +4
    By the way, have you forgotten about the gold exported from Ukraine last year? And museum expositions from the Crimea?
    1. Albert1988
      Albert1988 23 December 2015 15: 45 New
      0
      Quote: Andrey NM
      By the way, have you forgotten about the gold exported from Ukraine last year? And museum expositions from the Crimea?

      How is it forgotten? No one has forgotten - all the gold exported from Ukraine is kept in "reliable hands" in the west ...
  12. Alexander 3
    Alexander 3 23 December 2015 06: 54 New
    +4
    Only cowards give their debts — the ostrich said — and hid his head in the sand.
  13. Al_oriso
    Al_oriso 23 December 2015 06: 55 New
    +6
    Even if Russia wins the trial, nothing will change. Yatsenyuk will say: "We are ready for this and will answer symmetrically." Ukraine will never return anything.

    But at the expense of debt, it will be possible to take away, for example, territories or objects ...
  14. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 23 December 2015 06: 56 New
    10
    To whom we want - to that we give. We must decide for us.

    I agree. By this principle, the current Ukraine lives. It is also necessary to add what Ukraine decided for some reason - if it stood in confrontation with Russia, then Europe and the United States owe it. But the Germans used to have to worry when they began to sing along to the ukronatsiks and comprehensively help, both politically and economically.
  15. Obstructia
    Obstructia 23 December 2015 07: 14 New
    +4
    "Is this even possible anywhere?" - jumpers are allowed everything)) Until the black-eared monkeys personally require, of course.
  16. Great-grandfather of Zeus
    Great-grandfather of Zeus 23 December 2015 07: 18 New
    +8
    I understand that the Germans began to ripen something? Will they still have a lot of time and they will start to guess something?
  17. Lily
    Lily 23 December 2015 07: 20 New
    +8
    I didn’t understand what the Hague court had to do with it. Litigation going to London.
  18. linen
    linen 23 December 2015 07: 20 New
    +2
    Now the American tan will be all impossible for RUSSIA to lose this court!
  19. bad
    bad 23 December 2015 07: 25 New
    +3
    The question arises: if the IMF went to such a significant change in its policy to address even a non-EU member, then where is the guarantee that such eternal debt debtors like Greece, Portugal, Italy will not want to use this precedent?
    this is called "wherever you go, everywhere there is a wedge" .. Geyropa created problems for herself, it was not necessary to shake Ukraine ..
  20. isergil
    isergil 23 December 2015 07: 34 New
    +6
    The precedent of non-repayment of Russia's debt is purely political in nature, and the creditor-debtor relationship in Europe, and it will not be reflected anywhere else in the world. That is why the IMF (read, USA) allows Ukraine not to pay.
    1. Mik13
      Mik13 23 December 2015 08: 41 New
      +3
      Quote: isergil
      The precedent of non-repayment of Russia's debt is purely political in nature, and the creditor-debtor relationship in Europe, and it will not be reflected anywhere else in the world. That is why the IMF (read, USA) allows Ukraine not to pay.

      Yes, in what place do they allow you not to pay? They are allowed to lend defaults. And they allowed themselves. Because the IMF cannot ban or allow anything at all.

      As I understand it, these bonds are generally listed on the Irish stock exchange. So all the most interesting is ahead of Ukraine.
  21. avg-mgn
    avg-mgn 23 December 2015 07: 38 New
    +3
    To whom we want - to that we give. We must decide for us.

    Let's go in a circle! We didn’t take it, and we don’t take those, today we took it, and who will give it back - by ... p, we will no longer be. Quite reasonable logic for idiots
  22. Zeppelin ml.
    Zeppelin ml. 23 December 2015 07: 43 New
    +6
    Greece - 183%.
    Portugal - 148%.
    Italy - 139%.
    Belgium - 135%.
    Spain - 132%.
    Ireland - 115%.


    curiously, Ecuador declared itself bankrupt in 2008 at 21%))
    moreover, he managed to use default as a tool for economic recovery - in three years the debt was halved (!), GDP grew by 7%. Although he also challenged, sought restructuring and refused to pay "immoral" debts. Of course, I'm not saying that prosperity has come in the land of oil, shrimp and bananas, but still ..
  23. Jozhkin Cat
    Jozhkin Cat 23 December 2015 08: 06 New
    +4
    Greece - 183%.
    Portugal - 148%.
    Italy - 139%.
    Belgium - 135%.
    Spain - 132%.
    Ireland - 115%.
    Imagine when this whole bubble, called the global economy, bursts ...
    how all of us are splattered with indecency? it will be abruptly all crises combined. You should probably look for a summer house, otherwise there will be nothing to eat.
    1. VeterS
      VeterS 23 December 2015 08: 17 New
      -2
      Let it be to you! Well, a bubble will burst (the main thing is that another bubble would not break), well, our former Soviet citizens in bast shoes are still a couple of years old ... What a wonder!
    2. Oprichnik
      Oprichnik 23 December 2015 13: 44 New
      +1
      And a shotgun to boot. (MW and water supply by itself)
  24. aszzz888
    aszzz888 23 December 2015 08: 08 New
    0
    Now we will see how the German economy will rattle at the seams. fellow
    1. Zeppelin ml.
      Zeppelin ml. 23 December 2015 08: 40 New
      +3
      Quote: aszzz888
      Now we will see how the German economy will rattle at the seams. fellow

      why would she pop?
      1. kotvov
        kotvov 23 December 2015 11: 29 New
        0
        Now we will see how the German economy will rattle at the seams. fellow
        why would she burst ?,
        Yes, the Amerovsky district court will award five hundred lards to pay a fine, and here it will ban.
        1. Zeppelin ml.
          Zeppelin ml. 23 December 2015 15: 53 New
          0
          Quote: kotvov
          the court will award to pay a fine lard five hundred to pay

          what is the fine? To whom?
  25. Russia
    Russia 23 December 2015 08: 22 New
    +4
    if the IMF has made such significant changes in its policy to even a non-EU member, then where is the guarantee that eternal European debtors such as Greece, Portugal, Italy will not want to use this precedent?

    The US pushed through "reforms" at the IMF just in order to plunge Europe into even greater economic chaos. And the 404 is just a tool for organizing chaos. Moreover, Europe is practically already in an economic trap with all its debtors, migrants and 404th. The door will slam if Russia "loses" the trial. Moreover, Russia will lose 3 billion, and Europe will acquire such chaos that it will be difficult to calculate the losses at all.
  26. Voltsky
    Voltsky 23 December 2015 08: 41 New
    0
    And how much does Russia owe to foreign creditors ?! :) I do not understand much in relation to GDP, but in every way more than 3 lard
    1. Zeppelin ml.
      Zeppelin ml. 23 December 2015 09: 07 New
      +1
      Quote: Voletsky
      And how much does Russia owe to foreign creditors ?! :) I do not understand much in relation to GDP, but in every way more than 3 lard

      of course. According to the statistics of the Ministry of Finance as of December 01.12.2015, XNUMX -
      State external debt of the Russian Federation (including obligations of the former Soviet Union, accepted by the Russian Federation) $ 50,128 billion

      MoF website: http://www.minfin.ru/ru/perfomance/public_debt/external/structure/#ixzz3v7a6nkQc
    2. Lexxa
      Lexxa 23 December 2015 09: 34 New
      +1
      and what? pays interest, at the end of the term - pays. In general, Russia is not even a hundred debtors.
      1. Zeppelin ml.
        Zeppelin ml. 23 December 2015 09: 50 New
        0
        Quote: Lexxa
        and what?

        Yes, nothing, it was about the size of the debt.
        Quote: Lexxa
        pays interest, at the end of the term - pays.
        And no one says that the Russian Federation has a bad credit history)
  27. Ros 56
    Ros 56 23 December 2015 09: 11 New
    +2
    And you look at our legislative and executive branches of government, and immediately everything will fall into place. Ponte to bash, not tossing bags. And Germany, well, Germany, what it can do, is driven by the Phashington Regional Committee.
  28. Neophyte
    Neophyte 23 December 2015 09: 14 New
    +3
    There is a great way for foreign lenders: either seize the capital from the Ukrainian oligarchs, or start the appropriation of Ukrainian assets?
  29. Andryukha G
    Andryukha G 23 December 2015 09: 27 New
    +3
    Russia is not so stupid that to file a lawsuit in a Hague court (fed to the USA), there are more competent and independent courts on the international scene (for example London International Arbitration Court, created by the way in the century before last - 1892).
    1. Zeppelin ml.
      Zeppelin ml. 23 December 2015 09: 45 New
      +2
      Quote: Andryukha G
      Russia is not so stupid that to file a lawsuit in a Hague court (fed by the USA), there are more competent and independent courts in the international arena (for example, the London International Arbitration Court

      Most likely it will)
      In general, the LCIA has a rather interesting Regulation)
  30. Belousov
    Belousov 23 December 2015 09: 30 New
    +2
    Why did someone decide that the Greeks would rock the boat? If in the summer they tied their hands and feet like nice ones, then the staff will not let them squeak. But just in case, they will keep it, if Old Europe (Germany, France, etc.) starts to get under way it will be possible to let this small thing into action and again drop the economy of a rival Europe to the bottom, which means capital will run ... right, capital run into the dollar. Q.E.D.
  31. Bakht
    Bakht 23 December 2015 10: 41 New
    10
    The problem is that neither the financial nor the economic system is working anymore. There are no more rules. Sanctions - a direct violation of the rules of the WTO, the non-delivery of Mistrals from the same series, As the non-payment of debts by Ukraine. The use of economic leverage to solve political problems is a fait accompli.

    The trial will not be in The Hague, but in London. And the London court may well make a decision in favor of Russia. But it will be almost impossible to recover. There is nothing more to talk about. If the rules do not work, then following them is stupid. This is a complete reboot of the global economic system. Which is just fine with the Anglo-Saxons.

    While the solution is not visible. Is it just a complete freezing of relations with Ukraine, as with an unscrupulous debtor. It also means breaking relations with Europe. No gas, no oil, no turnover. The ball is on the side of Europe. If the court is in Russia's favor, then the tranche that was supposed to go to Ukraine should be transferred to the Russian Federation. But the IMF is unlikely to do this.
  32. core
    core 23 December 2015 10: 45 New
    +2
    To whom we want - to that we give. We must decide for us. This has long been known. I owe a hundred rubles, this is the debtor’s problem. owes a hundred thousand rubles, this is the creditor’s problem. everywhere and always like that.
  33. dchegrinec
    dchegrinec 23 December 2015 11: 05 New
    +2
    Russia will do its job calmly and to the end. And it’s not at all scary whether we win the court or lose, it doesn’t change anything at all. This debt will still come back whether Ukraine wants to join the United States or doesn’t want. will live, we will find in what coefficient to include this penalty. What we want the prices for this or that, we will establish such. They will not go anywhere from the submarine!
  34. seti
    seti 23 December 2015 11: 10 New
    +6
    Yes, there will be no such precedent, otherwise the entire financial system of the loan will fall to dust. But on the other hand, it is very beneficial for the European Union and the United States that the matter in court on the payment of debt, interest on it and compensation, as well as the payment of lawyers, be delayed for many years. So this court for a couple of years so for sure. But at this point, the junta may not be in power, which is why it is also very beneficial for them.
  35. Cananecat
    Cananecat 23 December 2015 11: 41 New
    +7
    Default, technical concept. When financial norms stop working. However, most of those present perceive it on a par with some sort of blackout or pandemic. Recognize debt Ruins to Russia in Londongrad so what? The question is when will we get this money back, although we will receive it anyway, if suddenly, once again we don’t decide to withdraw part of it. We will not see or feel this money. So the point is to pour out eloquence about how the Ruin will be shitty? It will be bad for ordinary people, and not for those who sawed these lard. And in all conscience, it should be the other way around ... here is how everyone has his own conscience.
  36. Nasty
    Nasty 23 December 2015 11: 55 New
    +2
    But the fact that in Germany they began to think a little about the future prospects of the IMF policy is already not bad. There is still time.

    There is no time already. The train left the year so in the 45th.
    So the Germans should not worry and worry.
    Everything has long been decided for them.
    a) Ukraine can do anything
    b) Ukraine is at war with Russia, is on guard until the last, the last frontier, etc., for this, see paragraph a)
    c) Russia will never win the court because see b) and further a)
    d) Therefore, the debts that Ukraine Ukraine owes to Russia as an aggressor country can and should not be paid
    e) There will be no precedent. Because they will accept some law of theirs, according to which see p. a B C D)
    f) And the "moratorium" on debts does not apply to other countries. Those. there some Greece or Portugal will have to pay.
  37. iouris
    iouris 23 December 2015 11: 56 New
    +2
    Ukraine is part of Russia. Ukraine needs to be returned while it is at least worth something: chernozem has already begun to be exported to Germany and Sweden. The Russian Federation will lose the court because the debtor is the United States, and an interesting precedent will be created.
  38. Old warrior
    Old warrior 23 December 2015 12: 00 New
    +2
    If such an EU policy continues, then Russia will have to defend its rights with the Force ... Arms.
  39. Gormenghast
    Gormenghast 23 December 2015 12: 11 New
    +5
    There can be no loss of Russia in court; may be illegal set-off with some other requirement. That is illegal. But this is still a different situation than to indulge in non-payment of public debt. Everything will fall apart; Russia may well refuse to pay public debt, which is relatively small, but absolutely not small. Greece may refuse to pay. And the USA at the very end. The US, I think, may not pay; only then will the dollar necessarily, completely, inevitably collapse.

    Ukrainians hope to drag out the matter - there’s how the process of debt for gas lasts; a year and a half has passed and no end is visible; only zeros are drawn on both sides. Gazprom added a contractual penalty for non-extraction of gas, and Yaytsenyuk also counted some tens of billions for violating obligations to minimize pumping through the GTS and challenged the allegedly unfair price (although he himself paid it while there was money, that is, he agreed).

    In addition to tightening the case, I think they have no goodies. So-called "international authority of Ukraine"Slowly but steadily, it is falling. It is never a fact that in a couple of years the Ukrainian authorities will be supported so zealously that they will make unjust decisions for them.
  40. L. A. A.
    L. A. A. 23 December 2015 12: 29 New
    0
    Ukraine is moving regression.
  41. Lumumba
    Lumumba 23 December 2015 13: 37 New
    +2
    Quote: 4 wheels
    Try to imagine ... almost 20 trillion of debt and, moreover, debt only grows like a snowball


    The USA doesn't give a damn, they print bucks. Still print. Then again. And further.
  42. Mercenary
    Mercenary 23 December 2015 13: 56 New
    0
    Maybe we, on the sly, take a hundred (lard) of theirs money and look at the court's decision (lady GAGAGI). If you give everything in your mind right away, and if not .. how much space you can decide who is "good" and you can not give it at all! am
  43. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 23 December 2015 14: 11 New
    +3
    Have you ever heard before that a debtor sets a deadline for his creditor to refuse claims, otherwise he would threaten to sue? Is this even possible somewhere?

    I recalled a recent quote from Bash:
    Called on the agenda for yesterday's verbal skirmish with a neighbor - an alcoholic. He filed a complaint with me to the police for threats against me... In all seriousness, they interrogated, forced to write an explanation. They showed a statement from the "victim". In a statement in black and white: "With numerous witnesses REPEATED THREATENED to hand me over to the police for smoking and noise on the landing".
  44. Appraiser
    Appraiser 23 December 2015 14: 33 New
    +1
    That's right, let them worry, otherwise it will be a judicial precedent. Germany has many debtors ..... lol
  45. mihasik
    mihasik 23 December 2015 15: 06 New
    +1
    Consider the ratios of external debt to GDP:

    Greece - 183%.
    Portugal - 148%.
    Italy - 139%.
    Belgium - 135%.
    Spain - 132%.
    Ireland - 115%.

    These are all flowers! lol
    Now imagine that the United States, under this "sauce" will write off its debts? Have you presented? laughing
    Something tells me that the IMF was not for nothing forced to change their own rules to please Ukraine. The real situation along the way is that it was not done for the sake of Ukraine, it is just a fig leaf!
    We are waiting for "interesting" events in the form of the World Financial Armageddon! fellow
    1. Zeppelin ml.
      Zeppelin ml. 23 December 2015 15: 55 New
      0
      Quote: mihasik
      Now imagine that the United States, under this "sauce" will write off its debts? Have you presented?

      not submitted. And how?
    2. AdekvatNICK
      AdekvatNICK 24 December 2015 20: 15 New
      0
      This is a sensible remark. But is American debt only composed of IMF debt?
  46. Prutkov
    Prutkov 23 December 2015 15: 20 New
    +1
    Quote: Tatiana

    The IMF’s decision essentially untie the hands of the strong aggressor in new ways of waging a modern war - it takes the war itself to a new OPEN level - to the information and diplomatic level.

    The IMF decision determines the conditions for issuing a loan, but not the procedure for issuing a loan. Those. Russia may declare that it will not give its part of the tranche to the debtor country. I wonder who will pay in this case for Russia its share?
  47. Leprekon
    Leprekon 23 December 2015 15: 32 New
    +1
    Consider the ratios of external debt to GDP:
    Greece - 183%.
    Portugal - 148%.
    Italy - 139%.
    Belgium - 135%.
    Spain - 132%.
    Ireland - 115%.

    War is war and it doesn't matter in what form it is economic, political, and so on. Russia, too, needs to more often irritate the "donors" by possibly not returning the debts by analogy with Ukraine, but pushing the "debtors" to make such statements - since Ukraine is possible, then we will go this way. Let them devour each other.
  48. X Y Z
    X Y Z 23 December 2015 15: 52 New
    +1
    It does not seem to me that anyone else will be allowed to use the Ukrainian experience if the court makes a decision in their favor. And we have a practical example of this. No one after Kosovo is allowed to repeat the games of independence. They simply stated that it was an exceptional case, which has no analogues and that’s all. I think that everything will be absolutely identical with Ukrainian debts. They will come up with a special formulation and will not allow using such a precedent. American elites are allowed to change the rules of the game only when the fundamental interests of the United States require it and nothing else. Freebie, it is not for everyone.
  49. Ivan Zadunaisky
    Ivan Zadunaisky 23 December 2015 16: 30 New
    0
    And maybe God is with them with three billion, well, suppose Ukraine wins the case in court, and how can things start to develop further. Greece will "forgive" the 65-billion-dollar debt, Portugal will look and also decide why pay, if you can not pay, and then a snowball: Italy, Belgium, Spain, Ireland, etc. Chaos will begin, but that is their choice. Russia will also suffer, but not as badly as Europe.
  50. Rostislav
    Rostislav 23 December 2015 16: 48 New
    0
    One clarification - to collect debts, it seems like they were going to the London court. Where did the Hague come from?