Military Review

As lord Hunak Keel returned to earth

234
If we turn to the old Russian chronicles, we learn that our ancestors lived in an environment of enduring holiness. The “God's regiment” in heaven helped Alexander Nevsky defeat the Germans. The "bright youths" (Boris and Gleb innocently killed) helped the Russian army on the Kulikovo field, and so on. And at the same time in the confessional canons and conscripts of the sixteenth century. repentance of monks (monks, not laymen!) is described, which “in the church, standing singing and reading while sitting, they raised their own shameful uds with their own hands and, having created a plaintiff, entered the holy altar in that filth and touched the shrine.” And in the lists of sins characteristic of the black clergy, it is even called “to think of holy icons with lust”. But the icons are not Playboy magazines, are they? That is, literature is one thing and life is quite another. And what’s most interesting - it’s always been like this and this is the most amazing thing. It’s one thing when the artist Jan Matejko portrays “The Battle of Grunwald” on his canvas St. Stanislaus, one of the heavenly patrons of Poland, who asks God for the victory, and it’s completely different when, for example, a historian tells about this as a historical fact, that can hardly be perceived as historical certificate.


Well, are there examples of the distant past, when people contrary to everything: education, public opinion, traditions, opposed religion and God, or gods (the latter, of course, required special courage, because in the era of polytheism, the amount of people's knowledge was very small!) . Are there any facts? Yes there is!


Anubis weighs the heart of the deceased in the scales of truth of the goddess Maat.

Here, for example, is the history of ancient Egypt. What is she talking about? That there reigned a universal cult of death. People only engaged in that, as far as possible and prepared to prepare to continue their existence in the next world. The pharaohs built tombs, and even the poor, gathered uhebti from clay. Moreover, they were also embalmed, although in a very simple way. So ... did they believe in their gods? But here we read the “Rechki” of a certain Ipuser (beginning of the 18th century BC) and so what? In them he reports not only that "the king is captured by poor people", but also that the most "hot heads" have come to disbelief in God. He writes that they say: “If I knew where God is, then I would make a sacrifice to him.”

But most, perhaps, a wonderful monument, expressed doubt ancient Egyptian in the divine, is the "Song of the Harper" extant recording the XIV century. BC er And that's what it says:

No one comes from there,
to tell - what about them,
To tell about their stay,
To cheer our hearts ...
Follow your heart as long as you live
Put myrrh on your head,
put on thin fabrics,
Wear yourself with the wonderful real ointments of the gods,
Multiply your pleasures even more
Do not let your heart grieve,
Follow his desire and your good,
Do your work on earth
according to the dictates of your heart
And do not be sad until you come
crying day for you
The one whose heart does not beat does not listen to complaints
And crying will not return anyone from the grave.
So, celebrate the joyful day and do not be sad,
For no one takes his good with him,
And none of those who went there,
not yet come back.

That is, it is obvious that even in Egyptian society there were atheistic ideas and they were based on the denial of faith in the afterlife. Although the reality of the gods themselves was not contested, they recognized the natural phenomena surrounding man, plants and animals.

And here is the text of some ancient rationalist: “A man died, and his body became dust, and all his relatives died, but the scriptures do what he remembers in the reader’s mouth, because a scroll is more useful than a builder’s house than a prayer house in the west; it is better than a fortified castle and a plate dedicated to the temple ”(Translation M. E. Mathieu). Just think of his words: a scroll is more useful than a chapel! This happened in the Middle Ages, the author would have been waiting for the fire as the most vile of heretics!

However, this is passive atheism, at the level of the expressed opinion, even if it became (most likely, became) the property of the broad masses of the people. But whether in ancient times were people so shameless and courageous to use their disbelief in personal wholes?

The Mayan Indians, when they came under the rule of the Spaniards, were known to “The Book of Chilam Balam” from Chumaiel (the name of the village where it was discovered), which preserved a sample of the ancient Mayan epic. In it, an unknown copyist recorded an ancient legend: “A Song about the Taking of the City of Chichen-Itza”. In the translation of Yu. V. Knorozov, it sounds like this:

Such a trace was left by Vladyka Hunak Keel.
Song.
... I was a young youth in Cheech'en Itza,
When he came to seize the country evil leader of the troops.
They are here!
In Chich'en Itza now grief.
Enemies are coming!
Hey! On the day of 1 Imish
Vladyka (Chich'en Itza) was captured at the West Well.
Hey! Where were you, god?
Hey! That was the day of 1 Imish, he said.
In Chich'en Itza now grief.
... I speak in my song about what I remembered.

It is clear that "The Song of the Seizure of the City of Chiche'en Itza" was composed by an eyewitness to the events connected with the defeat of this city-state. He cries about the terrible invasion of enemies and calls the name of the leader of the enemies who destroyed the city of Chichen-Itza, - "the lord Hunak Keel". But who is this Hunak Keel and why did he go to war with the city of Chich'en Itza? "Song" does not give an answer to these questions. However, we were lucky, we still know a lot from this story.



An important source of information about the life of the Maya Indians are extant "codes", texts written on sheets of ficus and the book "Chilam Balam", which appeared after the arrival of the Spaniards. There is also the famous temple in Bonampack, which in Mayan language means “painted wall”, which gave the city its modern name. Today it is widely known for its wall murals, which are outstanding works of art from pre-Hispanic America. Wall murals are located in the first temple of Bonampak, the only multiplex building of the city. The total area occupied by the frescoes in the three rooms is 144 m². Each room is a room with a length of 9 and a height of 7 meters. On the walls and ceiling are depicted a ruler and his follower, military scenes, court, dance scenes, and the sacrifice of women from high society. Murals help to represent the social structure of Mayan society in the second half of the first millennium AD. er This is how these murals look unvarnished.

As lord Hunak Keel returned to earth

And this is a reconstruction of images.

It is known that after the invasion of the Toltecs, the pantheon of local gods was enriched by the new supreme deity - K'uk'ulkan, the Feathered Serpent. The fact that the name of God is named in Mayan language suggests that not only culture was perceived by the newcomers, but even Maya language, otherwise why did they need to translate the name of their god the Feathered Serpent Quetzalcoatl into their language?


“The Temple of Kukulkan” - a nine-step pyramid (height of 24 meters) - “Mecca” for modern tourists in Yucatan.

The city of Chich'en Itza ruled over other Mayan cities for over 200 years. This time is called the hegemony of the city of Chiche'en Itza. “Chen” in Maya means “well”, and “Chich'en” is translated literally as “mouth” or “hole”. “Itza” is the self-name of one of the Maya-Kiche tribes, so Cheech'en Itza can be translated as “Well of the people”. And, yes, indeed, within the city limits there still exists a gigantic well (cenotes, as they are called here) created by nature itself.


The famous cenote of Chichen Itza! Depth about 50 m.

And not only the name of the city is connected with it, but also the beginning of the end of the two hundred year hegemony of its rulers over other Mayan cities. Here is what the well-known historian Yu. V. Knorozov writes about in his monograph “The Writes of Maya Indians”: “In the end, the hegemony of Chichen-Itza began to cause discontent in other cities. The beginning of internecine wars is attributed by all sources to the name of the ruler of Mayapan Hunak Keel (from the Kavich clan), who was first in the service of the ruler of Mayapan Ah Mesh Cook.


But the dredge, with the help of which from this well, his first explorer, the American consul Edward Thompson, got from the bottom of the cenote various archaeological finds in 1904 - 1907.

At this time there was a custom to throw living people into the Sacred Well of Chich'en Itza as "messengers" to the gods. These "messengers", of course, never returned. Ah Mesh Cook chose Hunak Keel as such a victim, but the latter managed to somehow get out of the well, and then as a messenger who visited the gods, he achieved the proclamation of himself ruler (Ahav) of Mayyapan ... "


Procession of the priests on the fresco from Bonampak.

So wrote Yuri Knorozov, but now let's see what could be behind these words. First, the famous well is simply amazing in its size: it is almost round, as if it was drilled with a giant drill, and reaches a diameter of about sixty meters!


And you think that someone could get out of here without help?

From the edge of the well to the surface of its water - twenty meters, so hit the surface of the water (if you get thrown there), the pleasure is below average. But even if you were jumping there yourself, then ... in lush dresser "a messenger to the gods", with ornaments made of jade and gold on his hands and legs, it was easier to drown in him!


Temple in Bonampack: another modern reconstruction.

Looking down on the blue-green waters of the Sacred Well, it is impossible to imagine how a person could get out of there without help. But Hunak Keel, no one not only helped, on the contrary, priests stood at the edges of the well, and if the "messenger" to the gods had a desire to get to the surface, they would dissuade him from the correctness of such an intention by a hail of stones.


The temple was erected in 790 year in honor of the victory of the city over the neighboring kingdom. Here it is to the right of the stele under the roof. There are three entrances in the room. The murals in one of the rooms are not finished.

And here is how this is described in the book by V.A. Kuzmischeva "The Secret of the Mayan Priests": this event happened in the "twentieth anniversary" of 8 Ahab. (In the transfer from the “short count” Mayan 1185 - 1204 years of our era.) en Itza, because of the conspiracy of Hunak Keel, the ruler of Mayapan-fortress ... "


Mayapan: pyramids and observatory.


"The Pyramid of the Miracle Worker" - the city of Uxmal.

That is, it seemed little to the marked Hunak Kael that he escaped from the well and the priests made him the ruler of Mayapan. He held in his heart a fierce resentment against ... ruler Chuck Shib Chuck, who saw him there in the well and sent him, and overthrew him!


Scene of the battle of Bonampak.

That is, look what happens: this Hunak Keel A didn’t believe in gods (it’s Maya ?!), didn’t believe in their revenge, didn’t believe in priests, B — besides him there were at least two people who helped him. A - save yourself in the well (so how did he get there that he wasn’t seen from above and how he breathed until the priests left, we can only guess), B - escape from the well, which required a rope ladder or at least a rope with knots. B — they hid him for three days; G — they took out red paint and helped him down the well again on the third day, when the priests came to ask the messenger if he had returned from the gods.


The Caracol Observatory in Tsichen Itza.

Well, okay, Copernicus, okay, Giordano Bruno and Galelevo Galileo - there is already science and a telescope. And besides, they did not deny the existence of God. Martin Luther did not deny him either, he wanted a cheap church. However, Maya had their own observatories ... Almost in every city of them!


Ahab - to win, and before it defeated enemies with torn nails. Such they certainly will not escape! The white rectangle below is the door.

And then the man knew that he was a “messenger to the gods,” that the well-being of the people depended on him, whether it would rain or not, and whether there would be a harvest or a famine. And now he was not afraid of this, he managed to organize his salvation and appearance in advance, that is, he found people who were also not afraid of the wrath of the gods and did not report on him. Could this be the priests themselves?


The complete storyboard of the “Hall of Battle” at Bonampack.

No, they could not! Reason had to tell them that they create a dangerous precedent in the eyes of the people. And what could he, the returning messenger, give them, the almighty priests of all-powerful gods, who sent hundreds of people to the sacrificial tables of the all-powerful Kukulkan. After all, he himself was on horseback, that is, the commander, but come and you - hit the well as a sacrifice! That is, they sacrificed everyone, regardless of the faces! And only one person, who did not believe in anything, managed to use the faith of other people in his own favor. And neither the gods nor the people punished him!


Halac Vinic Bonampak.
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  1. The comment was deleted.
    1. atalef
      atalef 25 December 2015 10: 45 New
      -6



      ... I was a young man in Chichen-Itza

      Not there searched. It is also said right there in Chechnya, the cult of mortality, etc. etc.
      Believe in the transmigration of souls - it's the same Barimore belay
      1. afdjhbn67
        afdjhbn67 25 December 2015 14: 22 New
        +1
        Quote: atalef
        Not there searched.

        If a known joke, rephrase the photos to the article are cool ..
    2. anykin
      anykin 25 December 2015 12: 38 New
      +3
      For mass manipulators, the tool is everything: religion, patriotism, family, ecology, health, traditions. Everything that is valuable to us is a tool for manipulators.
    3. RUSS
      RUSS 25 December 2015 18: 05 New
      +4
      Quote: Igor39
      Religion is a means of manipulating the masses.

      In Western Europe, the sunset of the Christian religion, but they manipulate society the only way their media alone are worth it! By the way, it’s easier for you to agitate atheists and you are easier to agitate.
      1. Ykrofashist
        Ykrofashist 25 December 2015 23: 59 New
        +1
        I support. You can rub anything, but with the Holy Scriptures it is more difficult to manipulate.
  2. Neophyte
    Neophyte 25 December 2015 06: 54 New
    +7
    Interesting article! Spanish-Portuguese bandits destroyed these civilizations and did it in the name of their God! Do sources say tens of millions of people?
    1. Igor39
      Igor39 25 December 2015 06: 58 New
      +4
      God was just an excuse; they did everything for the sake of gold in their pockets.
      1. Sirocco
        Sirocco 25 December 2015 07: 31 New
        +2
        Quote: Igor39
        God it was just an excuse

        As Marx said, Religion is the opium of the people.
        The fact that this is so is confirmed by Ukraine, with its many sects, which openly participated in the Maidan races. The pastors competently managed the flock.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 10: 15 New
          +3
          Quote: Sirocco
          As Marx said, Religion is the opium of the people.

          Being the grandson of a rabbi. They sacredly cherish their religion, but at the same time they treat others sarcastically and obscene. Take at least the exhibition of Marat Gelman.
        3. Loreal
          Loreal 25 December 2015 12: 22 New
          +2
          He himself sat on morphine; opium was neglected.
    2. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 09: 20 New
      +2
      Tell us, how in the name of God 300 could a man destroy a civilization with a multimillion people? Maybe the states themselves were rotten?
      1. kalibr
        25 December 2015 09: 54 New
        +2
        The state was fragile, kept on fear. In addition, the Spaniards were helped by the Tlaxcalans - opponents of the Aztecs!
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 20 New
          +1
          Actually, I meant Francisco Pizarro, not Cortec.
          1. kalibr
            25 December 2015 10: 35 New
            +1
            There is a book of the same Kuzmishchev "Empire of the Children of the Sun" - look, everything is detailed there.
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 40 New
              +1
              Thank you, I will definitely look.
              1. Loreal
                Loreal 25 December 2015 12: 44 New
                -1
                These Incas were also those inventors with their elbow ball game and decapitation of the losing team
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 25 December 2015 13: 02 New
                  +3
                  The Russian national football team would have such rules ...
                2. kalibr
                  25 December 2015 13: 12 New
                  0
                  Mayan had a sacred ball game ...
                  1. Loreal
                    Loreal 25 December 2015 16: 44 New
                    -1
                    among the Incas it was also Mesoamerican
    3. Loreal
      Loreal 25 December 2015 12: 33 New
      -2
      the great bloodthirsty Mayans did not live up to the conquistadors - at first they degenerated then they were finished off by the surrounding Indians
      in the article about
      the almighty priests of the almighty gods, sending hundreds of people to the sacrificial tables of the almighty Kukulkan

      at the very end and as if nothing
      worse than maya there were NO people in the history of the earth
      Now the Chinese are claiming this title, with their custom of devouring the brains in places of mass executions and dismantling them in squares for organs of convicts

      tens if not hundreds of millions died from smallpox epidemics in the Amazon
  3. Mangel olys
    Mangel olys 25 December 2015 07: 48 New
    +2
    Chichen Itza was one of the largest cities in Yucatan in the X - XIII century BC. It was an important cultural, religious and political center of the Mayans. According to preserved Mayan historical records, this city was rebuilt three times.
    In 1194, the Mayan ruler Hunak Keel, of the Kavich clan, with the support of seven military leaders and with hired Toltec detachments captured Chichen Itza. Further, Hunak Keel gives the city to his allies, and the Halach-Vinik, the ruler of the conquered city, is taken hostage. In the XIII century, the powerful Kokom dynasty came to power in Mayapan, which became the unlimited ruler of Northern Yucatan.
  4. ovod84
    ovod84 25 December 2015 07: 53 New
    0
    I think it is better in Russia to have four religions, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and Judaism, and the rest, and especially to fight sects.
  5. The comment was deleted.
  6. 0000
    0000 25 December 2015 08: 08 New
    +1
    on the scales NAG_VAL
    A _ | _ Q
    heart | mind
    SOUL | .....
  7. parusnik
    parusnik 25 December 2015 08: 09 New
    +1
    Wall paintings are very interesting and picturesque .. thanks ..
    1. Loreal
      Loreal 25 December 2015 12: 45 New
      -1
      it's all a remake
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. 0000
    0000 25 December 2015 08: 20 New
    +5


    aftor_ Vyacheslav Shpakovsky _ why did you write such nonsense ))
  10. gorgo
    gorgo 25 December 2015 08: 28 New
    +5
    Dear author! I would recommend that you first concentrate on studying the basics of Orthodoxy, since you are a Russian man, which, after reading this opus, I have doubts. But suppose you are Russian. So, it’s a shame not to know even the elementary foundations of the faith of one’s own ancestors, the religion that made the world empire a medieval principality.
    In any prayer book there is a manual for confession, which lists sins. This is done for convenience, so that a person can read the list and attach it to himself - whether he created something like that. In order not to forget, roughly speaking, and not to lose anything in confession. Therefore, if lust for icons is mentioned in such a manual, this does not mean that all monks lust for icons, but how intense the monastic life is, and how wild and incomprehensible to the laity temptations the enemy of human salvation sends them.
    And all this is so elementary that if you do not know this, then do not dare to write nonsense for all to see. At least not to look ridiculous in the eyes of knowledgeable people.
    So, as long as you have not become acquainted with the basics of your own religion, there is nothing to deal with the issues of the ancient Egyptians or Maya, which you personally know not only about Orthodoxy, but even scientists know less than a second-grader about quantum physics.
    Article minus. Moreover, I don’t understand either the meaning of the article, or how it appeared at all in VO.
    1. kalibr
      25 December 2015 08: 46 New
      0
      You see how much you don’t understand at all, but advise others to understand. A parable about a straw and a log, right? I took an example with lust for icons from an article in Rodina magazine, and this is a serious historical magazine with links to sources, which is called "Anyone Fornication". And I took it a little more ... So I don’t need to get acquainted with the basics, but it’s enough to be able to work with sources, which I can do. And before you there were a lot of people who, judging by their comments, understood everything as they should. And ... then remember the mirror and the hara ...
      1. Ykrofashist
        Ykrofashist 26 December 2015 00: 45 New
        0
        In some cases, working with sources will not help
    2. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 09: 03 New
      +1
      I put a plus. You got ahead of me. )))
    3. Boris55
      Boris55 25 December 2015 09: 04 New
      +3
      Quote: gorgo
      Dear author! I would recommend that you concentrate first on studying the basics of Orthodoxy

      It would not hurt you to start with them.

      "The First Council of Nicaea is the Ecumenical Council of the Church; it was held in June 325 in the city of Nicaea (now Iznik, Turkey); it lasted more than two months and became the first Ecumenical Council in the history of Christianity ...

      ... From the above HISTORICAL facts it is clear that - the Emperor, Bishops, Priests and other "responsible" persons, APPROVED laws, symbols and the "main" - assigned the status of God to the prophet Jesus , for your own purposes and for your own sake! ": http://79.120.77.163/klin/page.php?id=256

      Subsequent cathedrals:
      "1st Constantinople. Gathered in 381 in Constantinople. Clarified the interpretation of the trinity of God in the symbol of faith and again denied recognition to arianism. Half of the "high clergy" Christian system arrived at this cathedral was killed because she didn’t want to act on a diabolical plan and recognize Jesus as God".

      "Ephesus. Gathered in 431 in Ephesus. Condemnation of Nestorianism, but we devoted the main time to discussion does a woman have a soul".

      And so on ... http://79.120.77.163/klin/page.php?id=257

      ps
      You can minus - but these are historical facts, the recognition of which does not indicate your zombies.
    4. Alex
      Alex 25 December 2015 10: 44 New
      +3
      Quote: gorgo
      So until you know the basics own religion

      As far as I understand (I can only speculate, because I’m not personally acquainted), Vyacheslav is an atheist, so if you personally are a devotee of any religion, then you should not automatically make it the property of everyone else. Believe yourself in health in anyone, but do not stop others from expressing their point of view.
    5. parusnik
      parusnik 25 December 2015 11: 10 New
      +3
      Dear author! I would recommend that you concentrate first on studying the basics of Orthodoxy... And so, by the way, the cultures of the Incas, Aztecs died ... Some came, they recommended ... On Easter Island, the "recommender" collected and burned tablets with the writing of the islanders ..
      1. kalibr
        25 December 2015 19: 55 New
        -3
        By the way, I read somewhere that I managed to decipher the remaining four tablets and read the text. And there was one phrase I remembered: "all the birds copulated with all the fish and so the world was born!" Well, after all - "wild people", and here you are - you all found the same explanation for the "world of light"!
  11. 0000
    0000 25 December 2015 08: 33 New
    -1
    main knowledge
  12. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 25 December 2015 08: 58 New
    -2
    Thank you for the excellent article, Vyacheslav !!! According to Channel 365, they said that in ancient Egypt, the fertility of Nile silt is ideal! And, accordingly, the population (in the sense of reproduction) was free. But the territory sandwiched between two deserts "Not really! And to do abortions --- not only go against the Gods, but also poison yourself. Therefore, in order to plan the population, we used the following methods:
    1) dancers
    2) a variety of sexual joys in marriage
    3) for men --- "the raising of shameful oud"
    4) for women --- dildos
    5) also for men --- condoms!
    And Maya had the most severe posts with self-torture! If you pierce the calf muscle with a thorn --- already thoughts about the sexual process disappear for a while ...
    Material evidence of this is found in the Egyptian tombs, and manuals in the Mayan codes.
    Sincerely, I liked the beautiful photos to your article very much.
    1. kalibr
      25 December 2015 09: 37 New
      -1
      You also wrote interesting things, but someone for the truth immediately slapped a minus. But for what? There are no value judgments, everything is taken from available sources ... Yes, well, some people just can’t come to terms with the fact that people have an opinion different from their own, and they have the audacity to back it up with information - ah-ah!
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 25 December 2015 20: 47 New
        0
        Could you, Vyacheslav, write your opinion on the film "Apocalypse"? If this does not bother you?
        1. Alex
          Alex 25 December 2015 22: 20 New
          +1
          Quote: Reptiloid
          Could you, Vyacheslav, write your opinion on the film "Apocalypse"? If this does not bother you?

          Is it about what: about an asteroid or about the end of the world due to neutrinos? Or is there another one?

          PS Sorry to climb, but it became too interesting repeat
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 26 December 2015 08: 47 New
            0
            I answer right away how I read the question. I’m glad that you, Alex, got in because I love this film. A few years ago it was a world premiere. You won’t remember the director, Mel Gibson is like. The strongest film is about Maya. Artists say this language. Very much. The ratings of the film are different. I have the impression that I just get into a different life when I watch this film. It is on the net. There are a lot of small details of life, also rituals. That's what I would like to know from Vyacheslav is his opinion. You can quickly look at it and write it. That would be close to the topic of the article. I will probably also look at it again, but it takes a lot of time --- 2 hours and + to get back into this life.
            1. Alex
              Alex 26 December 2015 10: 10 New
              +1
              Dmitry, I understood what it was about. I didn’t watch this Apocalypse (indeed, I lagged behind life), so I’ll look and write about my impressions.
  13. Pomeranian
    Pomeranian 25 December 2015 09: 06 New
    +2
    And why does the author not consider such a theory that the comrades really returned the locally revered deities? Say it doesn’t? It happens, it happens. On the cults of Mesoamerica I recommend reading the book of Erich von Daniken "The day the Gods appeared."
    1. Igor39
      Igor39 25 December 2015 09: 13 New
      +3
      Deniken on REN TV constantly shows his books "Gods were astronauts" and "Gold of the gods. Aliens among us" say a lot.
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 09: 50 New
        0
        Unfortunately in our distant Ren TV does not show. I can not say anything about this.
      2. kalibr
        25 December 2015 10: 31 New
        0
        Of course, this is very convenient. There is a signal, people are watching. There is time for advertising and it’s completely safe, it doesn’t hurt anyone and ... interesting!
      3. Loreal
        Loreal 25 December 2015 12: 56 New
        -1
        "astronauts" are different, more and more like these - they worshiped alien bloodthirsty demons, from here such mass sacrifices, and from somewhere they came from an intergalactic calendar
    2. kalibr
      25 December 2015 09: 44 New
      +2
      Oh, about Deniken ... You stepped on my sore spot. I read his books and films I watched back in 1970 and ... then when I was a lecturer at the OK Komsomol I gave people a lot of lectures about ... "the mysteries of ancient civilizations." But the more information was accumulated, the more doubts arose. Finally, the "house of cards collapsed." Therefore, from my own experience I can only advise one thing: read more about this. Write down in your notebook all the facts of contacts of the first and second kind, everything that is related to the "business of Deniken." Periodically review, count the results, read other authors, compare. Case, I tell you a long, vile, and ungrateful! Because in the end you will come to the same point that I have come to and with what the Occam’s razor does the best! Well, if you don’t come, you will become a classy specialist and write your very evidence-based book: "Following the footsteps of Deniken and the brothers in mind."
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 09: 54 New
        +2
        I finished reading one American last week, "Mesoamerican Civilization." There are more questions than answers. American civilizations are something out of the ordinary. But I’m not going to dive so deeply, there are a lot of interesting things in Russia too. )))
    3. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 10: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: Pomoryanin
      "The day the Gods appeared."

      I recommend google "Cargo Cult." Funny answer to the origin of religion.
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 41 New
        0
        Was reading. But the plane did arrive !! )))
        1. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 10: 51 New
          0
          Quote: Pomoryanin
          But the plane did arrive !! )))

          All the same, he flew away! laughing
          1. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 59 New
            0
            What’s this all about?
            1. Ingvar 72
              Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 11: 05 New
              +2
              Quote: Pomoryanin
              What’s this all about?

              This is due to the fact that the "Cult of Cargo" was formed after the planes with provisions and the benefits of civilization stopped arriving. And not vice versa. hi
              1. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 09 New
                0
                Have you read about it yourself? When white people learned about the cult of cargo, they flew by plane and brought in various supplies. After which the cult intensified even more, and the authority of the shaman generally flew up to heaven. Prayer was heard. What side you stuck here with Carlson, and most importantly why - I do not understand.
                1. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 11: 54 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Pomoryanin
                  Have you read about it yourself?

                  I read it, and you? You confuse the causal relationship.
                  http://free-eyes.com/kult-kargo-religiya-tuzemcev/
                  http://www.orator.ru/stories_kult_kargo.html
                  Well, or read Wikipedia or something. laughing
                  1. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 04 New
                    0
                    Quote: Ingvar 72
                    Well, or read Wikipedia or something.

                    I can’t, I don’t read Wikipedia, I write it. Well this is so, by the way. Let’s not begin to breed Turuses on wheels. After the war, did citizens in Cargo worship hard prayers? They prayed. Rituals of walking with sticks on the shoulders around the airfield were carried out? Spent. The plane flew with swag? Arrived. What is not clear? Prayer worked tongue
    4. Alex
      Alex 25 December 2015 10: 50 New
      +4
      Quote: Pomoryanin
      On the cults of Mesoamerica I recommend reading the book of Erich von Daniken "The day the Gods appeared."

      But personally, I do not recommend the books of Mr. Daniken as a serious source in general. But in terms of entertainment reading, it’s quite suitable. After the Gingerbread Man and before the X-Files.
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 00 New
        0
        Actually, I’m a freelance correspondent for a reputable international newspaper, whom you used in such a derogatory way. What does not suit you in our materials?
        Threat. Do not hope, not a "gingerbread man"
        1. Alex
          Alex 25 December 2015 11: 12 New
          +3
          Quote: Pomoryanin
          What does not suit you in our materials?

          The print edition of The X-Files is familiar to me (I’ve read it before, but now it somehow fell out of focus, which I regret) and I have no complaints about its contents. In my commentary, I had in mind a cycle of novels and short stories of the same name and an equally famous television series with the same plot. As the captions sometimes write, any coincidence is random. request

          It's just that Daniken’s books, by their scientific nature, occupy a niche between fairy tales and fiction. Well, somewhere for middle school age.
          1. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 23 New
            0
            Alexander, remember the Shtatovsk film "Men in Black." Where did the reliable information come from? Right. From the "yellow press". So that of comrade Danikin in his works there are things that are very difficult to refute. In general, I agree that it is not worthwhile to perceive his books as revelations or scientific works. But to think about what is written is a must.
            1. kalibr
              25 December 2015 12: 14 New
              +2
              You know, I’m very lucky in life. He is a historian and an “Englishman” by education, a teacher of history of the CPSU, cultural studies, history, PR, plus a “commissar in a dusty helmet” - a propaganda lecturer at the Komsomol and the CPSU, and also the editor of his own brand magazine. And all this gave experience. And this experience says that if it weren’t for Denikin, he would have to come up with that this is a great PR project, just like Suvorov, and Fomenko with Nosovsky. PR, after all, that says - you can’t lie! We must find something unproven and dance from it! Imagine how without all this it would be boring to live? And so many even believe in women of "reptiloid section"!
              1. Sweles
                Sweles 25 December 2015 13: 44 New
                0
                Quote: kalibr
                And this experience says that if it weren’t for Denikin, he would have to come up with that this is a great PR project, just like Suvorov, and Fomenko with Nosovsky.


                your statement is false, to compare storytellers and myth-makers with learned mathematicians who were able to use mathematical tools to set many historical dates, such as Christmas of Christ or to reveal medieval ways of calculating the dates of Easter, horoscopes or the notorious “doomsday”. You need to hide the inconsistency of the chronology of illiterate monks built on the scholastic medieval errors, so everything that does not fit into your picture of the world with the most obscene words is wicked.
                1. kalibr
                  25 December 2015 14: 03 New
                  0
                  You see, the illusions of illiterate monks are somehow confirmed by the research of modern genetic scientists. Have you heard anything about haplogroups? Take an interest here, in VO, it is not necessary to go far. So why defame when it is all self-infamous!
                  1. Sweles
                    Sweles 25 December 2015 14: 37 New
                    0
                    Quote: kalibr
                    You see, the illusions of illiterate monks are somehow confirmed by the research of modern genetic scientists. Have you heard anything about haplogroups? Take an interest here, in VO, it is not necessary to go far. So why defame when it is all self-infamous!


                    these are common words, more specifically it is impossible? that is confirmed and that is not.
                    1. kalibr
                      25 December 2015 15: 58 New
                      0
                      Oh my God! Look at the new chronology and compare with chronology by haplogroups. The latter confirms both archaeological finds and standard chronology. Check out my articles here on this topic. Everything is said there! There is no point in repeating here.
            2. Alex
              Alex 25 December 2015 12: 26 New
              +5
              Vladimir, so I just advocate a serious, thoughtful attitude to all kinds of religious sources, including. Just fooling scientific (or sci-fi) theories only on a pair of drawings with ambiguous dating and dubious authorship is the surest way to a dead end. And there are enough riddles in our world. There are Indian epics, and the strange cosmogony of the Dogon, which are not fully understood by us and therefore seeming to be mysterious cults of Mesoamerica ... Yes, you never know what. It’s just that the time has come to deposit any religion (and intolerance, xenophobia and other remnants of the cave past) into the museum of the world history of mankind and build a life on new foundations. The role of religious representations in the history of mankind is an ambiguous question and not reducible to the simple formula “good - bad”; hundreds, if not thousands, of scientific and journalistic works in the framework of one (or ten) articles on the forum, as well as hundreds, are devoted to its research. two comments, you can’t solve it. And it’s not at all worthwhile to blame others for sinfulness by one, and in return you must be justified in retaliation by counterargument. After all, there is a simple way: do not like it - do not read.
              1. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 44 New
                0
                [quote = Alex] It’s just already time to deposit any religion with the museum of the world history of mankind [/ quote]
                And what will remain in return? How do you fill the void in human souls? Enrich yourself with the slogan? Remember how Dostoevsky’s "If there is no God, is everything possible?"
                [quote = Alex] and with it intolerance, xenophobia and other vestiges of the cave past [/ quote]
                So Orthodoxy, for example, has been struggling with this for a long time, isn’t it?
                [quote = alex]Vladimir, so I just advocate a serious, thoughtful attitude to all kinds of religious sources, including. Just fooling scientific (or sci-fi) theories only on a pair of drawings with ambiguous dating and dubious authorship is the surest way to a dead end.
                Strongly disagree, apparently you have never done any scientific work.
                [quote = Alex] After all, there is a simple way: do not like it - do not read. [/ Quote] That is, you are against the right to receive information? If we touch on this article, from which the people had a raging guano, then there is nothing criminal in it. An article is like an article. But a discussion with the requirements to throw religion in the trash, this, please, meekly, nonsense. Do you recommend throwing away faith? Throw away your conscience.
                1. Alex
                  Alex 25 December 2015 13: 26 New
                  +5
                  Quote: Pomoryanin
                  And what will remain in return? How do you fill the void in human souls? Enrich yourself with the slogan? Remember how Dostoevsky’s "If there is no God, is everything possible?"
                  Why is the absence of religion - it is certainly a void? Why is only the presence of God a guarantee of humanity? I am an atheist, I never stole anything, I didn’t kill anyone, I didn’t spread lies, I loved and honored my parents (not because of fear of the fiery hyena, but simply because I loved them), I didn’t get confused with harlots, what else are there from the commandments? I won’t say that I’m an angel, I also had actions for which I’m now disgusted with myself, and I don’t think I’m an excuse for years, but what does faith and God have to do with it? I don’t deny the need for the availability of money (as without them?), But I won’t pray for mammon either. By the way, the church will not christen without money, will not sing, will not marry, so this is another question, who is more virtuous.

                  Strongly disagree, apparently you have never done any scientific work.
                  Candidate of Chemical Sciences (1982 year) and Candidate of Pedagogical Sciences (2003 year). Do not make hasty conclusions.

                  Do you recommend throwing away faith?
                  Yes.

                  Throw away your conscience
                  But I just recommend it instead of faith. Only when a person realizes that you can’t do something, not because you’ll boil in a cauldron or lick pans with your tongue, but simply because you are IMPOSSIBLE - then you can’t be afraid of anything. For if a person is simply afraid to do something, then there will always be someone who can convince him of the opposite. A religion to change, if it has ceased to arrange - a couple of trifles. Ultimately, you can come up with your own.

                  In general, your position is understandable enough to me, like mine, obviously, to you. I do not consider it possible to accept yours, as I do not insist on my own in any way. We’ll go for a sim.
                  1. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 25 December 2015 13: 33 New
                    0
                    I agree, the discussion risks escalating into endless.
        2. kalibr
          25 December 2015 12: 08 New
          +1
          Oh yes we are colleagues turns out! What kind of newspaper? I am interested in reading!
  14. 0000
    0000 25 December 2015 09: 07 New
    +3
    Quote: kalibr
    So I don’t need to get acquainted with the basics ...

    Quote: Reptiloid
    in order to plan the population, the following methods were used: 1) dancers ....

    lol lol lol lol


  15. Igor39
    Igor39 25 December 2015 09: 16 New
    +1
    Sectarians have minded the article and sane laughing
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 09: 52 New
      +1
      Sensible people do not call other people sectarians. At least show respect for the opinions of others.
      1. Igor39
        Igor39 25 December 2015 10: 07 New
        +1
        I’m not talking about you, dear, I suggested that some of the people belonging to a particular sect broke into the site and zipped the article by Shpakovsky and sane people laughing Well, as I understand it, too, minuscule? smile
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 16 New
          +2
          Only some comments, including yours. Everyone has the right to their own view of the world, but personal freedom ends where the freedom of the other begins. I respect other people's freedom.
          1. Ykrofashist
            Ykrofashist 26 December 2015 01: 12 New
            0
            WOW. Respect good good good
      2. Alex
        Alex 25 December 2015 10: 54 New
        +5
        Quote: Pomoryanin
        Sensible people do not call other people sectarians. At least show respect for the opinions of others.

        A highly controversial statement. Doctors of psychiatric hospitals (you can’t refuse sanity to them), for example, only outwardly agree with their patients. By the way, does this analogy tell you anything?
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 02 New
          -1
          It tells me that the doctor is doing the right thing. Do you think that we all live in a madhouse ??
          1. Alex
            Alex 25 December 2015 12: 30 New
            +2
            Quote: Pomoryanin
            Do you think that we all live in a madhouse ??

            Not much, just a statement of fact (this is about belonging to any denomination) and sanity do not contradict one another at all. Although, seeing the modern world, one involuntarily wonders about the sanity and sanity of mankind.
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 45 New
              +2
              Madness has become the norm. The norm is perceived as insanity.
    2. parusnik
      parusnik 25 December 2015 11: 01 New
      +1
      Igor, pay attention to my comment .. smile He was bombarded by "sectarians" smile ..This kind of thing shouldn’t be so interesting and picturesque .. in the stove it! .. There would be an opportunity, probably they would burn me at the stake ... smile
      1. Igor39
        Igor39 25 December 2015 11: 40 New
        +2
        Alexy totally agrees with you! Some say that everything that they think insults their religion should not be published, can you imagine? Is this something like ISIS then it turns out? Religion is a dangerous thing, its time to ban already as a sect of abnormal people.
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 48 New
          0
          To the question of normality and abnormality.
          Quote: Igor39
          Religion is a dangerous thing, its time to ban already as a sect of abnormal people.
          Please tell me, at this forum, one of the believers called atheists abnormal people and proposed to ban atheism in general?
          1. Igor39
            Igor39 25 December 2015 12: 15 New
            +1
            Well, we do not forbid you to do this, you should have the right to an alternative point of view and your statements about us cannot in any way offend people who are ready to listen to any opinion.
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 47 New
              +2
              Quote: Igor39
              Well, we do not forbid you to do this
              We believers are forbidden to do so from upbringing and conscience. You have no such restrictions, as I understand it.
              1. Igor39
                Igor39 25 December 2015 12: 54 New
                +3
                Your conscience does not allow you to express your point of view?
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 57 New
                  +1
                  My conscience does not allow me to impose it on others, as you recommend.
                  1. Igor39
                    Igor39 25 December 2015 13: 01 New
                    0
                    And what am I imposing on you? Let me ask.
                    1. Pomeranian
                      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 13: 04 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Igor39
                      Religion is a dangerous thing, its time to ban already as a sect of abnormal people.

                      Is it enough?
                      1. Igor39
                        Igor39 25 December 2015 13: 07 New
                        +1
                        I made this assumption in dialogue with Sailboat, what exactly did I impose on you, how did you speak out and where and how did my imposition sound?
                      2. Igor39
                        Igor39 25 December 2015 13: 24 New
                        0
                        I can only offer you one thing persistently, bang your head against the wall with a running start, although this is unlikely to change anything, but the attempt is not torture laughing laughing laughing
                      3. Pomeranian
                        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 13: 34 New
                        +1
                        Why should I repeat this action for you? I'm fine as it is.
            2. kalibr
              25 December 2015 13: 17 New
              +3
              I met many people who talked about their faith and even ranked themselves as believers. But they had neither upbringing, nor conscience. You must have met them too, so this is not a criterion!
              1. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian 25 December 2015 13: 34 New
                -1
                Quote: kalibr
                I met many people who talked about their faith and even ranked themselves as believers.

                The main word "ranked."
                1. kalibr
                  25 December 2015 14: 06 New
                  0
                  But “they did arrive” - these are your words, now they have returned to you. Once reckoned, then they assured others that they are!
                  1. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 25 December 2015 16: 48 New
                    +1
                    Does the word "hypocrisy" appear in your vocabulary?
  • Velizariy
    Velizariy 25 December 2015 09: 34 New
    +2
    [quote = Boris55] [quote = gorgo]
    You are either a provocateur or, as diplomatically, you don’t understand everything ...
    Your slogans are aimed at those who have never heard before about Orthodoxy and do not live the life of the Church, and you know this, well, or you draw information from your Rodnover sources.
    Jesus Christ was recognized as God 300 years before the First Council, only approved at the Council and among other things, the main defender of the Arian heresy Eulogius, who had a strong aratorial talent, and neither philosophers nor Sophists could resist him in speeches, recognized Orthodoxy and his error!
    About "does a woman have a soul" he himself came up with or suggested who? They approved 8 rules and there is nothing about the soul in a woman.
    Based on the above, you are a simple provocateur, moreover, illiterate, and an ordinary slanderer.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 25 December 2015 10: 04 New
      +4
      Quote: Velizariy
      Jesus Christ was recognized as God 300 years before the First Council, only approved at the Council ...

      Recognized by whom? In your mouth it sounds like it is recognized by everyone, although you yourself say, speaking of Arianism, the exact opposite - it is not recognized by everyone. It was for this reason that a cathedral was assembled to stop inter-confessional feud and save the Roman Empire from collapse (it did not help).

      Only due to the fact that the prophets are recognized as gods, religious wars are possible.

      To people, at a crucial stage in their development of their community, God, through the prophets, guided them on the true path. To say that Jesus is cooler than Muhammad or Moses is the same as to say that in England a literature teacher is cooler than a literature teacher in Russia and on this basis beat each other’s faces only because some do not know Pushkin by heart and others do Shakespeare ...

      Every nation, through the prophets, was given understandable them knowledge to exit their deadlock life situation.

      Now you understand what all this led to? You 2000 years of endless wars are not enough?
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 18 New
        +1
        Do you think religion is to blame for wars? What is it based on?
        1. kalibr
          25 December 2015 10: 27 New
          +3
          And religion too! As if you don’t know this? Catholics slaughtered Protestants, and Protestants slaughtered Catholics, Christians slaughtered Muslims for 200 years, now the boomerang has flown back. Examples of religious wars are darkness!
          1. 0000
            0000 25 December 2015 10: 33 New
            0
            reason warriors
            1. kalibr
              25 December 2015 10: 39 New
              +1
              Is this an illustration for Makarevich’s famous song?
          2. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 42 New
            +1
            Good. What is the religious background of the US Civil War?
            1. kalibr
              25 December 2015 10: 52 New
              0
              It is clear that not all wars were religious, what is it about?
              1. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 02 New
                +3
                What am I talking about? Background 90% of all wars dull thirst for dough.
                1. parusnik
                  parusnik 25 December 2015 11: 22 New
                  +1
                  What am I talking about? Background 90% of all wars dull thirst for dough... In what you are right .. the crusaders slaughtered the Albigensians, in the course of several wars ... not only eradicating heresy, but also to cash in ... But that is characteristic, any war has an ideological or religious background .. And more the question is the remaining 10% of the wars were free of charge ..? Without profit ..? Without interests .. it’s just that they allowed blood to a friend to have fun ..?
                  1. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 32 New
                    +1
                    Stop, Alexey. Do not mix warm and soft and put ideology and religion on the same level. I immediately anticipate your question - as an example of the USSR. And about gratuitous wars: here is one of the typical examples of the “hourly football war” between El Salvador and Honduras. What is self-interest?
                    1. Alex
                      Alex 25 December 2015 12: 35 New
                      +3
                      Quote: Pomoryanin
                      Do not mix warm and soft and put ideology and religion on the same level.

                      Vladimir, as far as I remember from the course of philosophy, both ideology and religion are only forms of social consciousness. In this case, ideology is a more general form than religion, since it includes it.
                      1. Pomeranian
                        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 58 New
                        0
                        And how to stick the USSR here?
                  2. Ykrofashist
                    Ykrofashist 26 December 2015 01: 46 New
                    0
                    War, but without interests. Dear, what are you smoking (well, at least fame, but usually there is interest). By the way, killing for the sake of interest takes place (unless of course the stories about the lynx, which in the winter kills more than fiction can eat). Well, just in case, serial killers.
                    So ...
                2. Alex
                  Alex 25 December 2015 12: 33 New
                  +5
                  Quote: Pomoryanin
                  What am I talking about? Background 90% of all wars dull thirst for dough.

                  And church hierarchs were often his most passionate desires.
                  1. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 49 New
                    0
                    Quote: Alex
                    And church hierarchs were often his most passionate desires.

                    I believe that they were secret atheists?
                3. Oprychnik
                  Oprychnik 25 December 2015 12: 59 New
                  +2
                  Well yes. And the background of the Inquisition and the witch hunt, yes, in the end, and the numerous crusades is a dull thirst for bloody sacrifices of the most peace-loving church.
          3. Ykrofashist
            Ykrofashist 26 December 2015 01: 38 New
            0
            Hare. I don’t have to kill the commandment (whether the question is fulfilled or not, I plan to answer for my iniquities). I do not answer for others.
        2. Boris55
          Boris55 25 December 2015 10: 34 New
          +2
          Quote: Pomoryanin
          Do you think religion is to blame for wars? What is it based on?

          You heard the slogan "divide, bleed and rule"? But the actions of ISIS do not say anything to you? And the broken-down temples in Ukraine? Killing strangers is easy and pleasant - isn't it?
          1. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 43 New
            -1
            Religious background of the American Civil War. Or the wars between Paraguay and Brazil.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 25 December 2015 10: 57 New
              0
              Quote: Pomoryanin
              Religious background of the American Civil War. Or the wars between Paraguay and Brazil

              Are you sure that you can force thousands of soldiers from one side to kill each other without faith in their righteousness? If they are adherents of the same faith, then for the bottom they will find thousands of other reasons to hate each other. Separate the principle of the etch and conquer - unshakable. Religion removes the taboo on killing their own kind.
              1. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 03 New
                0
                Modzhno. Say: "City for three days to plunder." And what kind of faith are you talking about .. Religion forbids killing your own kind, have you heard “Don’t kill”?
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 25 December 2015 11: 47 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Pomoryanin
                  pr "Do not kill" heard?

                  Have you read this?

                  "If you hear about any of your cities that the Lord your God gives you to live, that wicked people have appeared in it ... saying:" let us go and serve other gods that you did not know, "... then ... hit the inhabitants of that city with the tip of the sword, betray his curse and everything that is in it, and defeat his cattle with the tip of the sword; yet collect all its spoils in the middle of its square and burn the city with fire and all its spoils for the burnt offering to the Lord your God ... "( Deuteronomy 13: 12-16).

                  "If your family calls you to worship other gods ... then kill them ... stone them to death" (Deuteronomy 13: 6-10).

                  "If there is among you ... a man or woman who ... will go and serve other gods and bow to them, or the sun, or the moon, or all the host of heaven ... then stone them to death" (Deuteronomy 17: 2-5).

                  Are you talking about the Inquisition bonfires that the thread heard? In your there stuffed burned?

                  1. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 08 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Boris55
                    Are you talking about the Inquisition bonfires that the thread heard? In your there stuffed burned?

                    Well, what can I discuss with you if you do not know that the Tribunal of the Holy Inquisition for the entire time of its existence has not sentenced a single person to death?
                    1. Boris55
                      Boris55 25 December 2015 12: 13 New
                      +2
                      Quote: Pomoryanin
                      The tribunal of the Holy Inquisition for the entire time of its existence has not sentenced a single person to death?

                      Heard, heard, and in Odessa in the house of trade unions they burned themselves ...
                      I brought you quotes from the bible - and say "don't kill" ...
                      1. Pomeranian
                        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 26 New
                        -2
                        And where does Odessa come from and quotes from the Bible? Atheists Pol Pot and Ieng Sari in Cambodia have gone xnumx / xnumx their populations without any Bibles.
                        Quote: Boris55
                        that ungodly people appeared in him

                        According to the theory of Stalin's laureate and State Prizes Academician Porshnev, such individuals may not be completely human. What this individual can say and looks like a person in fact may not be such. And nothing is said about the murder of nonhumans.
                        Well, for dessert. The Inquisition did not execute or condemn a single person to death for the entire time of its existence. Learn the materiel.
                      2. Loreal
                        Loreal 25 December 2015 13: 08 New
                        +2
                        Are we just not recording some people? In their time, someone sentenced the entire population of the Netherlands. wassat
                      3. kalibr
                        25 December 2015 13: 31 New
                        -1
                        She graciously offered to do it to others ... very noble of her, just effemism for you. I went to ... or I went "to call." The latter is more decent, of course, but the result is still the same - a bunch!
                      4. Pomeranian
                        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 06 New
                        -4
                        Of course, the Inquisition could have sentenced to exile in the monastery. But only. The rest is up to the civil authorities. Many sentences, to be precise, more than half, if we continue to discuss the history of the Inquisition, were acquittal.
                2. kalibr
                  25 December 2015 13: 29 New
                  +2
                  Listen to your ears wither! So after all, Hitler personally also did not kill anyone, did not drink, did not smoke. But for some reason, people shudder under his name and Torquemada. Well, Spanish boots ... Is that not an Inquisition invention?
                  1. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 09 New
                    -3
                    Quote: kalibr
                    So after all, Hitler personally also did not kill anyone, did not drink, did not smoke. But for some reason, people shudder under his name and Torquemada.

                    And where is Hitler and the Inquisition? Hitler killed people, he was at war. The 0 Inquisition is not, did not kill. They hate Torquemada because he persecuted the Jews, you yourself understand that since he persecuted the Jews, then the criminal is unequivocal. "Spanish boot"? So what? This invention is not a church invention, for the Inquisition appeared only under Isabella of Castile, and the boot was already in full use two hundred years before.
                    Threat. Take care of your ears.
                  2. kalibr
                    25 December 2015 15: 14 New
                    +1
                    Well, what do you resort to such cheap demagogic tricks? Hitler was killing at the front ... It’s clear, after all, that it’s not about this, yes, but about something else, what are you distorting? No need so, it does not characterize you very well.
                  3. kalibr
                    25 December 2015 20: 02 New
                    0
                    Ay-ah, and write to a famous newspaper! And where are the Jews? By persecution against the Morisks, he became famous, the baptized Moors, that is, the Arabs. It was they who were the main income of the treasury, because the Jews in Spain traditionally engaged in usury and were rich, but they were few. But there are many Morisks and they had a lot of land. These are all lands that the Spanish crown and church did!
                  4. Pomeranian
                    Pomeranian 26 December 2015 23: 43 New
                    0
                    Torquemada
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Ay-ah, and write to a famous newspaper! And where are the Jews? By persecution against the Morisks, he became famous, the baptized Moors, that is, the Arabs. It was they who were the main income of the treasury, because the Jews in Spain traditionally engaged in usury and were rich, but they were few. But there are many Morisks and they had a lot of land. These are all lands that the Spanish crown and church did!

                    If you study the history according to Caliber, it turns out that the marans (baptized Jews) Torquemada cherished and cherished. fool
            2. Sweles
              Sweles 25 December 2015 13: 29 New
              +3
              Quote: Pomoryanin
              Quote: Boris55
              Are you talking about the Inquisition bonfires that the thread heard? In your there stuffed burned?

              Well, what can I discuss with you if you do not know that the Tribunal of the Holy Inquisition for the entire time of its existence has not sentenced a single person to death?


              But did you hear anything about Giordano Bruno or Galileo?
              but there’s such a medieval treatise The Hammer of the Witches — there are just about practical ways of dealing with all kinds of malefics, who told you that the Inquisition did not condemn death?
              1. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 34 New
                -3
                It's just that I read The Witch's Hammer and repeatedly, and this book is on my shelf on hand. There is not a word about any "death sentencing" there. The Inquisition could only sentence to exile in the monastery.
              2. Sweles
                Sweles 25 December 2015 14: 48 New
                -1
                Quote: Pomoryanin
                It's just that I read The Witch's Hammer and repeatedly, and this book is on my shelf on hand. There is not a word about any "death sentencing" there. The Inquisition could only sentence to exile in the monastery.


                Walter Man also speaks about some cases of a voluntary agreement with the devil, pointing, in particular, to the fact that the contractual letter was sewn up under the skin by sorcerers, and while she was there, they were not in danger of punishment, they could only suffer them after removing this agreement from under skin. Caesar Geisterbach tells us how one priest found out, thanks to necromancy, that under the skin of two sorcerers a treaty with the devil was sewn. Upon learning of this, the priest notified the bishop, who took this pact from under the skin of the sorcerers and burned the criminals.

                The magical head pointed him to a trap into which he, due to his own fault, fell, and Sylvester realized that the hour of death had come. He summoned the cardinals, revealed his secret, and was cut open alive and thrown out of the temple.


                Under torture, the sorceress denied her guilt, the match established to reveal her crime did not give a definite result, and William was inclined to consider her innocent however, after his death they said that this woman had bewitched clay figures, and Wilhelm’s son, Count Alduin, executed her without resorting to court. In 1090, in Freising, due to a conflict with the bishop, the court was completely inactive for some time, and three women suspected of witchcraft were subjected to a test of water by the crowd. The test did not give positive results and the women were tested with lashes. Under torture, all three denied their guilt, but the rumors about the insidiousness of the criminals excited the residents of not only Freising, but the surrounding women were punished again with whips, and, in the end, they were burnt alive on the banks of the Isar River. A similar court of Lynch, but on a small scale, was committed by the courtyard people of the Earl of Flanders in 1128. The Earl once crossed the Dale River near Lille, some woman splashed water on him, and he fell ill with heart and viscera. The earl soon died, and his people decided that the water was magical. The woman was burned at the stake.

                it's from there, what do you say to that?
              3. Pomeranian
                Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 58 New
                -3
                Something tired I explain the basics.
                Quote: Sveles
                Wilhelm was inclined to consider her innocent however, after his death they said that this woman had bewitched clay figures, and Wilhelm's son, Count Alduin, executed her without resorting to court.

                What will I say? The arbitrariness of Lenlord.
                Quote: Sveles
                Caesar Geisterbach tells us how one priest found out, thanks to necromancy, that under the skin of two sorcerers a treaty with the devil was sewn. Upon learning of this, the priest notified the bishop, who took this pact from under the skin of the sorcerers and burned the criminals.

                What does this prove?
                Quote: Sveles
                The magical head pointed him to a trap into which he, due to his own fault, fell, and Sylvester realized that the hour of death had come. He summoned the cardinals, revealed his secret, and was cut open alive and thrown out of the temple.

                Is the Inquisition here?
                Learn the materiel, and do not insanely cite quoting thoughts taken out of context. Good luck to you.
            3. The comment was deleted.
        3. Oprychnik
          Oprychnik 25 December 2015 13: 43 New
          +4
          Peremptory statements you have. Maybe it's better to get acquainted with the history of the issue?

          “the burning of the heretic was carried out by civil authorities on the basis of church excommunication, with the consent, approval and at the request of the church, which has not yet been withdrawn, did not cancel a single excommunication from the Inquisition tribunals, with the exception of the sentence of Jeanne d'Arc. Therefore, based on Catholic doctrine, the souls of hundreds of thousands of victims of the "sacred" tribunal continue to burn in the fire of the underworld ... "
          INQUISITION (Grigulevich I.R.)
    2. parusnik
      parusnik 25 December 2015 17: 21 New
      +3
      Pomeranian Religion forbids killing their own kind, pr "Do not kill" heard?..Albigoys, also Christians..similar to those who cut them .. However, the like killed their own kind and with great pleasure .. At the same time, the Albigensian heresy spread without violence .. But the Albigensians were cut out at the root .. The prosperous Southern France was turned into a desert ..Don't look at the commandments and do not steal ..
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 26 December 2015 23: 45 New
        0
        Do you quote information on a textbook on the history of the 5 class? The Albigensian heresy was a terrible thing. For France, at that time, worse than Wahhabism in Chechnya for Russia.
        Quote: parusnik
        But the Albigensians were cut out at the root .. Thriving Southern France turned into a desert
  • kalibr
    25 December 2015 12: 19 New
    +3
    Watch the movie "Cromwell" 1970 of the year. There, only in the name of God they kill and everyone calls him to their aid both the gentlemen and the iron-faced. By the way, the film is historically very well made!
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 50 New
      0
      Why should I watch the sick imagination of scriptwriters and directors?
      1. kalibr
        25 December 2015 13: 34 New
        0
        Why necessarily sick? Good historical film. I just thought that freelancers of popular international magazines did not miss the chance to replenish, so to speak, the store of knowledge. Why then do you need to watch Kuzmishchev’s book - this too can be nonsense of the author’s sore imagination!
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 12 New
          -2
          I am a freelance, I want to work, I want not. And fiction is fiction. I prefer dust archives.
          1. Oprychnik
            Oprychnik 25 December 2015 14: 29 New
            +1
            "I'm a freelance, I want to work, I want to not."
            Or, you can. The editors want, prints you, wants-no.
          2. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 47 New
            0
            All materials sent, except the last, are published. It’s just that I don’t have a rigid framework - I have an interesting topic working, no - I don’t work. Graphomania a side job.
          3. kalibr
            25 December 2015 15: 10 New
            +3
            Oprychnik (1) - THIS IS RIGHT! It just doesn’t happen otherwise!
        2. kalibr
          25 December 2015 15: 08 New
          0
          And do you have many publications in your newspaper? Share your experience?
        3. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 15: 43 New
          0
          This is not my newspaper. I just collaborate with the editors, send me the works I have written for publication. Publications there are generally enough, so as not to feel awe from the sight of your family name on the title page.
  • Ykrofashist
    Ykrofashist 26 December 2015 02: 04 New
    0
    What does the law of the Romans have to do with it?
    Examples of permission by religions (non-destructive organizations) for killing in a studio
  • Alex
    Alex 25 December 2015 11: 19 New
    +4
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    What is the religious background of the US Civil War?

    Quote: Pomoryanin
    Religious background of the American Civil War.

    But this is already ugly, and it’s painful for the owl to pull on the globe. You, as a competent (I hope) journalist, perfectly understand both the style of communication (especially in the Internet mode) and the rules of discussion. Yes, no one claimed that ALL wars arose EXCLUSIVELY on a religious basis. Although she, too, implicitly did not disappear anywhere. As for the American Civil War ... Of course, this was not the decisive factor, but the northerners are mostly Protestants; southerners - mostly Catholics. I understand, too, an owl on the globe, but let a stone be thrown at me if this is not so.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 51 New
      -1
      No, I won’t. Then voice the religious background behind the “football war” between Honduras and El Salvador. The owl will be grateful to you.
      I’m talking about this and that a maximum of 10% of wars began on a religious basis, namely, as a struggle for faith, which went on at least one side. The rest of the war could hide behind anything, but the essence of “we want the dough” did not disappear from this.
      1. Alex
        Alex 25 December 2015 13: 32 New
        +2
        Quote: Pomoryanin
        Then voice the religious background behind the “football war” between Honduras and El Salvador. The owl will be grateful to you.

        Yes, I won’t torment the bird, I am a member of the Society for Conservation of Nature laughing . And I will not consider the percentage of the causes of wars: they tortured me with reports at school, and indeed a bummer. But the religious aspect of a large number of wars does not need to be discounted either.
    2. Alex
      Alex 25 December 2015 12: 37 New
      +3
      What, besides an empty minus, is there nothing to say? The trouble ...
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 58 New
        -2
        It's not me. Honest pioneer. fellow
        1. Alex
          Alex 25 December 2015 15: 40 New
          +2
          Quote: Pomoryanin
          It's not me. Honest pioneer.
          I understand: not your style hi
  • Ykrofashist
    Ykrofashist 26 December 2015 02: 00 New
    0
    In the American Civil War, both sides fought for the blacks (southerners slaves for plantations, northerners give workers to enterprises. Koroch for freedom fellow (although I don’t know for Lincoln, with His little white grave)
  • Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 10: 35 New
    +4
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    What is it based on?

    The fact that in the wars in the name of God the people perished many times more than just in wars of conquest. History is not an exact science, but the causes of most wars are described accurately, and they are precisely religious in the Middle Ages. Intolerance towards Gentiles is inherent in all monotheistic religions (spelled out in scriptures). And all monotheistic religions have Abramic roots (Judaism, Islam, Christianity).
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 44 New
      0
      I am begging you. Comrade Hitler started a war because of faith?
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 10: 52 New
        0
        Quote: Pomoryanin
        Comrade Hitler started a war because of faith?

        Quote: Ingvar 72
        they are religious in the Middle Ages.
        hi
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 13 New
          -2
          Twentieth Century Middle Ages? Ingvar72-th, are you a time traveler1 ?? hi
          1. Ingvar 72
            Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 11: 59 New
            +2
            Quote: Pomoryanin
            Twentieth Century Middle Ages? Ingvar 72nd, are you a time traveler1?

            Did the conversation go ONLY about the 20th century? belay The conversation was about religious wars in general. hi
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 09 New
              0
              Maybe I didn’t understand something, but in the original source in one harness there is a horse and a trembling doe
              Quote: Ingvar 72

              Comrade Hitler started a war because of faith?
              Quote: Ingvar 72
              they are religious in the Middle Ages.
              1. Ingvar 72
                Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 12: 25 New
                +1
                Quote: Pomoryanin
                but in the original source in one harness a horse and a trembling doe

                Do you use logic? Let's recreate the logical chain -
                Quote: Boris55
                Now you understand what all this led to? You 2000 years of endless wars are not enough?

                Quote: Pomoryanin
                Do you think religion is to blame for wars? What is it based on?

                Quote: Ingvar 72
                but the causes of most wars are described accurately, and they are precisely religious in the Middle Ages.

                Quote: Pomoryanin
                Comrade Hitler started a war because of faith?

                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Was the conversation ONLY about the 20th century? The conversation was about religious wars in general.

                Really do not see the connection? wink
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 52 New
                  -2
                  Now it’s clear., But I dare to assure you that in the Middle Ages the overwhelming majority of wars were without religious background.
                2. kalibr
                  25 December 2015 13: 37 New
                  +2
                  The Albigensian Wars, the "Wars of Faith" in France, the Hussite Wars, the Anglo-Irish Wars, the Crusades ... much more.
                3. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 36 New
                  0
                  Hundred Years War .. Enough?
                4. kalibr
                  25 December 2015 15: 06 New
                  +3
                  Centennial and what? Is the above not enough for you? Centennial 100 years. Crusades from 1096 to 1444! Plus all the rest of the war! Enough?
                5. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 25 December 2015 15: 44 New
                  -1
                  Enough for what? To know that on religious grounds, wars were counted on the fingers? I already know that.
                6. kalibr
                  25 December 2015 16: 06 New
                  +2
                  Stubborn quality is not very good. Just most of the wars had a religious color in one way or another, and I also know that. But my knowledge and yours, alas, is still a big difference!
                7. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 16: 48 New
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Stubborn quality is not very good.

                  It is like zero, it all depends on where you put it. good
                8. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 25 December 2015 16: 50 New
                  -1
                  Yes, God bless you with your knowledge!
                9. Ingvar 72
                  Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 18: 30 New
                  +1
                  And you too. And it is sincere. hi
                10. kalibr
                  26 December 2015 18: 05 New
                  0
                  But I don’t like the Pharisees. Obviously, a person is unpleasant to you, well, say so bluntly: the world is different to mind. We are out of the way! And here - keep you ... I always want to say in response, yes you went ...
                11. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 26 December 2015 23: 48 New
                  0
                  Quote: kalibr
                  And here - keep you ... I always want to say in response, yes you went ...

                  This is the main difference between believers who honor the words of Christ: "Yes, yes. No, no. The rest is from the evil one" and you, who do not believe in anything and seek hidden implication even where it is not. I have the honor.
  • Alex
    Alex 25 December 2015 11: 24 New
    +2
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    Comrade Hitler started a war because of faith?

    Yes. The exclusivity of the German race. And his personal historical predestination. He did not belong to traditional religions, but he believed in mysticism unconditionally. The mere fact that two days before his death, he was waiting for a miraculous salvation and the death of Roosevelt took as a heavenly sign, says a lot.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 53 New
      0
      This does not mean anything. Justification of the war from a religious point of comrade Shikelgruberva was? Not. The rest is talk in favor of the poor.
      Quote: Ingvar 72
      The fact that in the wars in the name of God the people perished many times more than just in wars of conquest.

      I brought this topic to this statement.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Igor39
    Igor39 25 December 2015 11: 54 New
    +2
    Pomeranian. Comrade Hitler unleashed a war precisely because of his belief in the Germans' exclusivity, FAITH, the key word. The Germans believed that they were the most and that they were on the right track, just as religious people, including religious people from ISIS, believe.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 10 New
      -1
      So what religion was in the ideology of the outbreak of war by Comrade Hitler? Did you call or did I miss something?
  • Oprychnik
    Oprychnik 25 December 2015 19: 00 New
    +1
    "Comrade Hitler started a war because of faith?"
    Hehe ... Hitler is a comrade only to the Pomeranian. Everyone else has a dumb attitude towards this figure. No one will call him comrade, except Pomaryanin. Sir, stop getting angry !?
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 26 December 2015 23: 53 New
      -1
      Quote: Oprychnik
      "Comrade Hitler started a war because of faith?"
      Hehe ... Hitler is a comrade only to the Pomeranian. Everyone else has a dumb attitude towards this figure. No one will call him comrade, except Pomaryanin. Sir, stop getting angry !?

      Actually, it’s not my habit to answer rude educated people, but I’ll inform you personally that in Germany the NSDAP members called each other “Genosse” or “Parteigenosse”, which in Russian means a friend.

      Do not cover the lack of knowledge with rudeness.
  • Ingvar 72
    Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 10: 29 New
    +3
    Quote: Velizariy
    Jesus Christ recognized as God 300 years before the First Council

    In vain argue against the facts. Are you aware that for 30 years after the crucifixion of Christ, Christians were considered only a sect in the framework of Judaism? And their rites almost completely copied the rites of the Qumranites, another Jewish sect.
  • Ykrofashist
    Ykrofashist 26 December 2015 01: 26 New
    0
    I apologize, but you don’t talk for an hour about the discussion of some saint (I don’t remember the name) who really defeated one of the heresies by winning the discussion over the philosopher. The opponent later said that man could not say that (the author of the arguments is clearly not from this world), and recognized his previous doctrine as heresy?
    In found http://www.svjatye.ru/osobo-pochitaemye/spiridon-trimifuntskij.html
  • Oprichnik
    Oprichnik 25 December 2015 09: 53 New
    +1
    Now the Catholic Church is preoccupied with the question - does the dog have a soul ... (in 431, according to official chronology, it was determined with the presence of a woman’s soul). Although what a soul is and where it "sits" when there is no fear, no one knows.
    We will not blaspheme a representative of academic science! This is his personal opinion, has the right. But woe to those who, having a different idea of ​​the past and present, dare to impose this other on others. How many slops were poured yesterday from the words of one of the specialists on the history of Russia, not Russian, about Sterligov’s new textbook (in my opinion) on Russian history from the 24th to the XNUMXth century on Russia-XNUMX channel.
    I repeat once again: History is always a custom-made project, if people in power are of the same root as the people, then the people have a true story.
    What true history of Christianity can we talk about if the higher clergy at the councils cut out and strangle those clergy who do not agree with the opinion of the chairman of such a highly respected assembly?
    1. Ingvar 72
      Ingvar 72 25 December 2015 10: 40 New
      0
      Quote: Oprichnik
      if the high clergy at the councils cut out, strangles those churchmen who do not agree with the opinion of the chairman of such a highly respected assembly?

      A striking example is the deprivation of the rank of Diomede, bishop of Kamchatka and Chukotka. hi
      1. kalibr
        26 December 2015 18: 01 New
        0
        But recently dismissed from the post of chief PR man of the Russian Orthodox Church. And what? He immediately began to water his brethren. Hit in criticism! Sheer sin of pride! And this is a big rank! And then what about ordinary soldiers ...
  • RomanS
    RomanS 25 December 2015 09: 54 New
    +1
    A panoramic historical excursion was a success. Although what exactly the article wanted to convey the author is incomprehensible. Smart and observant people have always been, and atheism, in fact, is also a religion, but on its canons.
    1. kalibr
      25 December 2015 09: 59 New
      0
      This is what I wanted you to write, no more, no less.
    2. brn521
      brn521 25 December 2015 11: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: RomanS
      atheism, it is essentially also a religion, but on its canons.

      It's right. A person by nature is forced to believe in something that he is not able to understand and even more so control. For example, a baby has no sleep or spirit about any religions, gods, Marx-Engels-Lenin. But he believes in his mother, and this faith is usually justified. In an ordinary comprehensive school, people begin to believe in science. At first, it seems that science is omnipotent and comprehensive. And the "British scientists" her prophets - by the way in the topic of advertising stereotype, since it did not appear from the air. To get rid of this superstition, it is enough to continue training. One can believe in certain mythical universal values, which in reality turn out to be completely non-universal. In unshakable principles that turn out to be unshakable only in someone’s head.
    3. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 29 New
      +1
      For me personally, the mystery is what this material does on Military Review? Be called the project "Science and Religion" I would understand.
  • Pomeranian
    Pomeranian 25 December 2015 09: 56 New
    -1
    I see that from the discussion of the article, people are slowly moving to a discussion of faith and unbelief. Citizens are atheists! I dare to assure you that sooner or later you will be convinced from your own experience that the believers were right. Guaranteed)))
    1. Igor39
      Igor39 25 December 2015 10: 23 New
      +2
      laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing Looking forward, only one question, when? Though approximate terms
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 46 New
        -2
        Strange position. Have suicidal tendencies ?? belay belay
        1. Igor39
          Igor39 25 December 2015 11: 00 New
          +3
          I actually thought about the second coming, and what are you talking about?
          1. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 15 New
            -2
            And I'm about death. Everyone will die and see who was right. Or will not see. For everyone will be rewarded according to his faith. winked
          2. Alex
            Alex 25 December 2015 11: 29 New
            +3
            Quote: Pomoryanin
            Have suicidal tendencies ??

            Quote: Igor39
            I actually thought about the second coming, and what are you talking about?

            Most likely, it was about the old, as the world, reception - the exploitation of the fear of death. While a person is young and full of strength and aspirations, when his whole life is ahead, he does not think about death and is not afraid of it (even accidental). But when life is at an end or war is around and death whispers in your ear with every whistle of a bullet or howl of a shell, you begin to listen to the oily voice from the pulpit. Well, then everything is also old, like the world - "and more often let's go to the temple." And you still can’t get away from death.
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 56 New
              -3
              Quote: Alex
              war around and death whispers in your ear with every whistle of a bullet or howl of a shell, you begin to listen to the oily voice from the pulpit.

              that is, someone inspires a person to turn to God, but he doesn’t get to this on his own? Like the classic: "there are no atheists in the trenches under fire." Don't you think that you wrote nonsense?
              Quote: Alex
              Well, then everything is also old, like the world - "and more often let's go to the temple."

              How much last time did you donate?
              1. Alex
                Alex 25 December 2015 13: 38 New
                +5
                Quote: Pomoryanin
                How much last time did you donate?

                I am not at all, for I know about the vows of abstinence and lack of remoteness. For priests ...

                that is, someone inspires a person to turn to God, but he doesn’t get to this on his own? Like the classic: "there are no atheists in the trenches under fire."
                The cart is in front of the horse. There are no atheists in the trenches because tales of a higher power are already embedded in the brains: Savaoth, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha, Moloch with Osiris or the devil in a mortar - it does not matter, the main thing is that the seed is abandoned and sooner or later it will sprout.
                1. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 50 New
                  -2
                  How then to match your words with these:
                  Quote: Alex
                  I am not at all, for I know about the vows of abstinence and lack of remoteness. For priests ...

                  these ones:
                  Quote: Alex
                  Well, then everything is also old, like the world - "and more often let's go to the temple."

                  How do you know this, who is whispering there, if you are not a church person?
                  Quote: Alex
                  There are no atheists in the trenches because tales of a higher power are already embedded in the brains: Savaoth, Jehovah, Allah, Buddha, Moloch with Osiris or the devil in a mortar - it does not matter, the main thing is that the seed is abandoned and sooner or later it will sprout.
                  I don’t even want to answer this nonsense. You will visit the trenches, and then you will talk. Or, oh my God, are you a veteran of all wars?
            2. kalibr
              25 December 2015 12: 24 New
              0
              And why was the Harper's Song given here? Old as the world!
    2. brn521
      brn521 25 December 2015 12: 17 New
      +2
      Quote: Pomoryanin
      I dare to assure you that sooner or later you will be convinced from your own experience that the believers were right. Guaranteed

      What kind of believers? People’s faith is very different, even if they believe that they believe in the same thing. Often this is simply a belief in words that everyone understands how he wants or how he can. Who has at least his own angel with whom you could at least just talk? Or the opportunity to regularly visit the afterlife? And so that in sync with others, such as he, so that this afterlife has at least some kind of objectivity.
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 30 New
        -1
        Quote: brn521
        Who has at least his own angel with whom you could at least just talk?

        Well, why an angel? There are a lot of entities around us. Many make contact.
        1. brn521
          brn521 25 December 2015 13: 08 New
          +2
          Quote: Pomoryanin
          Well, why an angel? There are a lot of entities around us. Many make contact.

          There are too many negative statistics on this issue. “aliens” and various “spirits” bring contactees to completely objective insanity. And in the same Orthodox practice, it is highly urged to postpone conversations with angels, saints, etc. to death. Because more than once it happened that monks, who effectively worked in fasting and prayer, as a result of such contacts fell into madness or heresy. You must admit that it’s a shame that Abraham believed someone there and became the father of a God-chosen people, and all his life a struggling monk in the same situation loses all the results of his efforts. Neither logic nor sequence.
          Be that as it may, as a result, people are out of work. Everything is in the hands of some guardian angels who would be able to clearly explain to sinners the whole wrongness of their position. And since nothing of the kind is observed, faith is very biased and differs significantly in particular interpretations.
          1. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 39 New
            +3
            The main thing is the measure. wink
            Quote: brn521
            Everything is in the hands of some guardian angels who would be able to clearly explain to sinners the whole wrongness of their position. And since nothing of the kind is observed, faith is very biased and differs significantly in particular interpretations.

            It is impossible for them. Why is a person called the "beloved creation of God", but because a person has the right to choose. An angel can avert the misfortune caused by some act, but to prevent the act itself - no.
            1. brn521
              brn521 25 December 2015 15: 29 New
              +1
              Quote: Pomoryanin
              It is impossible for them. Why is a person called the "beloved creation of God", but because a person has the right to choose. An angel can avert the misfortune caused by some act, but to prevent the act itself - no.

              Doesn't roll. For example, "With the reverend - you will be reverend, with the obstinate - you will be corrupted." That is, it is not freedom that is obtained, but a severe dependence on external conditions. It will not be on time at hand of the reverend, able to guide the true path, and that's all, goodbye. You will certainly be corrupted, eternal torment is included in the kit. Those. what happens. There are people who want salvation. There is a God who wants salvation for people. And the angels are either rather weak, or they are swinging away. Disorder, and dishonestly so. For example, take at least a breakthrough of current religious movements. Everyone preaches their own, half of them threatens with all sorts of troubles, almost what’s wrong. And there is no objective person at hand who could point a finger and say, and come on in to that church. And don’t go to a church or mosque, otherwise you’ll bury it. Divine love is good and good choices are to blindly poke around, so that in the end, almost with a guarantee, grab divine retribution. Something is wrong here.
              1. kalibr
                26 December 2015 17: 57 New
                0
                I read your post very carefully. Very logical and smart! It's nice that there are people who are able to think and dig so deeply into the depths of the problem!
  • 0000
    0000 25 December 2015 09: 56 New
    0
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    I'm not going to dive so deep


    cenote _ used to penetrate the lower * worlds winked

    just don’t tell anyone _ and then they will laugh)))
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 10: 14 New
      +1
      I know that.
      1. 0000
        0000 25 December 2015 18: 53 New
        +1
        Quote: Pomoryanin
        I know that.

        and the fact that

        the consequences of these * penetrations and now disentangle

        winked
  • Velizariy
    Velizariy 25 December 2015 10: 31 New
    +3
    Quote: Boris55
    Quote: Velizariy
    Jesus Christ was recognized as God 300 years before the First Council, only approved at the Council ...

    Recognized by whom? In your mouth it sounds like it is recognized by everyone, although you yourself say, speaking of Arianism, the exact opposite - it is not recognized by everyone. It was for this reason that a cathedral was assembled to stop inter-confessional feud and save the Roman Empire from collapse (it did not help).

    Only due to the fact that the prophets are recognized as gods, religious wars are possible.

    To people, at a crucial stage in their development of their community, God, through the prophets, guided them on the true path. To say that Jesus is cooler than Muhammad or Moses is the same as to say that in England a literature teacher is cooler than a literature teacher in Russia and on this basis beat each other’s faces only because some do not know Pushkin by heart and others do Shakespeare ...

    Every nation, through the prophets, was given understandable them knowledge to exit their deadlock life situation.

    Now you understand what all this led to? You 2000 years of endless wars are not enough?

    about each people were given "their prophets" this is a pearl!))))) and also didn’t invent it?
    You can say such a thing if you have never studied a single denomination at all, there is not the slightest idea of ​​religion. Only judgments on someone's impressive judgments.
    ... Every nation, through the prophets, was given understandable them knowledge to exit their deadlock life situation ... From which deadlock did the Indian "prophets" derive the Indians? Or African "prophets" where did the blacks come from? Or were they not sent prophets?
    About 2000 years of endless warrior in general pearl)))) Do you console yourself or something? In your opinion, the warrior was not 2500-3000 years old? Did everyone walk in frames?
    The Roman Empire did not break up on confessional grounds. Learn the materiel.
    1. kalibr
      25 December 2015 10: 45 New
      +1
      Well, you really belittle blacks. There is now (Kenya) semi-religious half-damn popular there, what movement of the prophets of which they say that you need to drink a drink of Chang - and all problems will disappear! Translated - kill me fast. Composition - sivuha and liquid for embalming the dead! So there are both prophets and means of "salvation" - he drank and there are no problems!
    2. Boris55
      Boris55 25 December 2015 11: 28 New
      +2
      Quote: Velizariy
      Teach materiel.

      Learn the principles of social management. Religion is only one part of its management.
      "The conquest of the people will be the most stable, effective and practically irreversible, if it is possible in some way to modify their worldview in mass statistics, then the people themselves protect the interests of the invaders, considering them part of their normal lives ...":

  • Velizariy
    Velizariy 25 December 2015 10: 54 New
    -1
    Quote: kalibr
    Well, you really belittle blacks. There is now (Kenya) semi-religious half-damn popular there, what movement of the prophets of which they say that you need to drink a drink of Chang - and all problems will disappear! Translated - kill me fast. Composition - sivuha and liquid for embalming the dead! So there are both prophets and means of "salvation" - he drank and there are no problems!

    If Borisov the god of such prophets sends blacks, then from what dead end does he lead them out? Probably from life)
    Religious warfare is just the manipulation of unbelievers or misguided rulers of a people who have little knowledge of their faith, in the case of Christians. The war against infidels is practiced and practiced in monotheistic religions only in Islam.
  • gorgo
    gorgo 25 December 2015 10: 57 New
    -3
    [quote = Velizariy] [quote = Boris55] [quote = gorgo]
    You are either a provocateur or, as diplomatically, you don’t understand everything ...
    Based on the above, you are a simple provocateur, moreover, illiterate, and an ordinary slanderer. [/ quote]

    Thank. It’s so good that there are still sane people still ...
    I agree with you - and the commentator Boris55, and the author of the article are either provocateurs or just hopelessly foolish people. I do not even enter into a discussion with such people. It is not the author himself who really upsets me, and not that such nonsense is published on VO in principle. What upsets me most is how many readers take this seriously and how many people like it. This is scary ...
    I understand that people like Lomonosov, Tyutchev, Dostoevsky, Pushkin, Tchaikovsky and others are all fools who were not able to understand the simple truth, how the priests deceive them, and that no God really exists. .. But for some reason, it was in this “nonexistent” God that they drew their genius and glorified Russia with their works and talents. And He, "nonexistent", made them through the efforts of our people a great Empire, civilization. But who cares? But today we read such great people as Nevzorov or Ganapolsky ... They really know better what Christianity is ...
    Truly, when God wants to punish a person, he destroys his mind.
    1. Boris55
      Boris55 25 December 2015 11: 14 New
      0
      Quote: gorgo
      I understand that people like Lomonosov, Tyutchev, Dostoevsky, Pushkin, Tchaikovsky and others are all fools who were not able to understand the simple truth, how priests deceive them

      And who is this?


      1. gorgo
        gorgo 25 December 2015 11: 49 New
        0
        Pushkin wrote to Gabrieliad, being a youth of 22 years, and then repented of it a lot.
        Tyutchev's words are taken out of context and do not mean that the author himself does not believe Him, but that the author regrets the unbelief of people. Do not distort the great.
        I didn’t cite unhappy Tolstoy as an example; And even he was a believer in Christ, in his own way.
        I would once again advise you to learn the materiel, but I'm afraid the problem is not your ignorance, but an evil intention. For why lay out absurd phrases taken out of context?
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 25 December 2015 12: 10 New
          +5
          Quote: gorgo
          Pushkin wrote to Gabrieliad, being a youth of 22 years, and then repented of it a lot.

          In his last letter to Pushkin, Nikolai says: “I am sending you my forgiveness and my last advice die a christian". And who was he before?

          Tolstoy was excommunicated for having thoughtfully read the Bible, which in Russian first appeared in the early 19th century. Article forbidden in Russia by L.N. Tolstoy: http://79.120.77.163/klin/page.php?id=258

          So, all disagree, you call unhappy? Well, thank you for not putting on the count.
    2. Alex
      Alex 25 December 2015 11: 45 New
      +5
      Quote: gorgo
      Thank. It’s so good that there are still sensible people still ... I agree with you - the commentator Boris55, and the author of the article are either provocateurs or just hopelessly foolish people.
      Fine. And who and after whom blames insults and lack of sanity ??? And how then to not complain about the mental inferiority of people who are not able to accept the highest revelations and fall into the sin of unbelief? As well as horrified by a large number of such fools?

      I understand that people like Lomonosov, Tyutchev, Dostoevsky, Pushkin, Tchaikovsky and others are all fools who were not able to understand the simple truth, how the priests deceive them, and that no God really exists
      But what about Mendeleev, who ridiculed religion all his life? Or Butlerov, who repeatedly sneered at the religious picture of the world. I will not talk about representatives of other sciences, but there were only a few among the chemists of truly believing people.
      Yes, leave Tchaikovsky alone. For it is somehow difficult to reconcile him, from your point of view, religiosity with his own, to put it mildly, non-traditional orientation. I really care what color his looks were, and what nationality his liver was, but the saints corrupted the life of a person very specifically. As well as the excommunication of such a great humanist as Leo Tolstoy.

      Quote: gorgo
      But for some reason, it was in this “nonexistent” God that they drew their genius and glorifying Him with their labors and talents.
      Something in the odes of Lomonosov (not to mention his scientific treatises) I did not meet religious psalms. Maybe I missed something, cite.

      But today we read such great people as Nevzorov or Ganapolsky ... They really know better what Christianity is ...
      What is Christianity, I knew well before these lights. It is enough to carefully read the Bible, especially the Old Testament. From the abominations that God and the righteous did, sometimes he begins to feel sick.

      Truly, when God wants to punish a person, he destroys his mind.
      That the Holy Inquisition and demonstrated more than one hundred years.
    3. brn521
      brn521 25 December 2015 12: 49 New
      +1
      Quote: gorgo
      It is not the author himself who really upsets me, and not that such nonsense is published on VO in principle.

      So what about the military? Belief in the Charter and the prophets. Religious dances around all sorts of characters. Rituals. Mythology again. The people are the same, the same patterns that accompany them. And this despite the fact that the army is such a part of society that is obliged to stay afloat even in such situations when society itself has long been at the bottom. There is a pattern, don’t you?
      Quote: gorgo
      What frustrates me most is how many readers take it seriously and how many people like it.

      The problem is not in the content of the text, but in the coverage of issues and problems that should be considered as a result. And thus live and develop.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 25 December 2015 10: 57 New
    +1
    I want to add that when there was an article on vandalism in St. Petersburg here (I do not specifically indicate its date), it was the faithful, Orthodox people who moved away from the topic, although it was they who were accused of this. None of them brought strong an argument! in defense of their like-minded people and thus, in general, Orthodoxy. But you just had to know certain Orthodox rules for building and fighting ......
    Only I wrote this one, because I specially instantly received a consultation from a respected Orthodox person from a religious organization. If someone had brought these arguments earlier, then maybe there would have been no speculation. This is my old thought, that apart from being blind faith needs enormous knowledge on the topic. It so happened that the study of the foundations of Orthodoxy has not been going on for 70 years. I don’t believe it when they say that they secretly studied it during the USSR. This gap will be felt for a long time. make it clear that people often substitute true faith and religious knowledge for fanaticism.
    Sincerely.
    1. brn521
      brn521 25 December 2015 15: 09 New
      -1
      Quote: Reptiloid
      in addition to blind faith, colossal knowledge on the topic is needed.

      But there is a jamb.
      Colossal knowledge requires tremendous time and colossal competence. As a result, the truly Orthodox will have no time to do his usual thing - to suffer and writhe from mental anguish, and in moments of enlightenment to spend time trying to at least fix something. The damage and suffering of a soul abandoned by God is one of the basic tenets. Fear that this will remain forever. The path of Holy Communion, fasting, repentance and prayer. Giver is not a guarantee of healing, but hope. No words, postulates, rules and codes along this path in themselves practically help. But there are patterns on an empirical basis. For example, handicrafts and handicrafts often only burden the soul. And the judgment or the more so the condemnation of other people causes the soul guaranteed harm.
      So the police will take care of those people. And as an Orthodox, looking at all this, I will only more clearly begin to feel all the pain of my crippled soul, I will even more zealously seek the help of the Only Healer. Those. even more repentance and prayer for myself, as well as for those who suffer and err with me, including the indicated vandal characters. And everything else is already out of the Way. Those. I am already as a person, and not as a repentant sinner, I can do something and get in the face for it. And rightly so.
      And the Church, as an organization, can also nakosyachit and also row a lot. But there is nowhere to go from the Church, for Communion, Repentance and Faith. Again, the main activity in defense of the Church is not running around with banners or even weapons, but humility, repentance and prayer.
      Something like that.
      Quote: Reptiloid
      people often replace true faith and religious knowledge with fanaticism.

      What does true faith mean? Faith is different and constantly changing. These are just steps leading somewhere. If you get stuck at some level, you won’t come anywhere. But sinful nature is able to lead those who are walking along these steps to the most bad places. Let us pray, brethren, that in the faith of those fanatics there should be more from God than from the promises of the Enemy of man. And may their ways be corrected, perhaps there will be help for us when our turn comes to err and create indecency. Yes, not to eternal death, but to admonition and salvation, amen :).
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 25 December 2015 16: 33 New
        0
        There are expressions in your commentary, due to which I think that you did not read the article to which I referred or you forgot what it was about. Therefore, you wrote in response to your thoughts.
        Sincerely.
        1. brn521
          brn521 25 December 2015 19: 39 New
          0
          Quote: Reptiloid
          You have not read the article I referred to

          That is yes. If you read all the VO, no time is enough. Therefore, I sometimes load the site and quickly scroll through what has accumulated there, and sometimes I just look through the Kalibr-a profile that he wrote there. My answer is universal.
          By the way, I didn’t understand who was there and why I rolled the minus. Straightened.
  • Velizariy
    Velizariy 25 December 2015 10: 57 New
    +1
    You heard the slogan "divide, bleed and rule"? But the actions of ISIS do not say anything to you? And the broken-down temples in Ukraine? Killing strangers is easy and pleasant - isn't it? [/ Quote]
    The word "bleed" was not there. The meaning of separation was not in the bleeding, but in the separation.
    And in Ukraine, Orthodox churches were gouged, not mosques, nor even synagogues.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 06 New
      +1
      Belisarius, you noticed that NOBODY on this:
      Quote: Velizariy
      And in Ukraine, Orthodox churches, not mosques, let alone synagogues, were gouged
      never paid attention? The offensive is precisely against Orthodoxy. Personally, such information makes me think about the disinterestedness of professional "wrestlers with the faithful."
      1. kalibr
        25 December 2015 13: 52 New
        0
        Everything, everything is paid for by the US State Department, you are right! By the way, a great topic for The X-Files is "All Fighters with the Veruns on American Content!" No matter what a person is, a million-dollar grant! That's all for sale. There is no honor, no conscience, only God, for the happiness of the true Russians, remained! And do not forget to mention “I” at the end of the name, this is also a trend in Russian history and mentality, but somehow ... carefully so as not to fall under the law. With a bang go material with such revelations!
    2. Alex
      Alex 25 December 2015 11: 48 New
      +4
      Quote: Velizariy
      And in Ukraine, Orthodox churches were gouged, not mosques, nor even synagogues.

      By the way, for the most part, Christians did this too, but only others who were "right." Yes, if God were in fact, he would have sent these villains to Satan for a long time. In any case, in biblical times he didn’t stop it, there was a bill for hundreds of thousands.
  • gorgo
    gorgo 25 December 2015 11: 13 New
    +1
    [quote = Velizariy] you heard such a slogan "divide, bleed and rule"? But the actions of ISIS do not say anything to you? And the broken-down temples in Ukraine? Killing strangers is easy and pleasant - isn't it? [/ Quote]
    The word "bleed" was not there. The meaning of separation was not in the bleeding, but in the separation.
    And in Ukraine, Orthodox churches, not mosques, let alone synagogues, were gouged. [/ Quote]

    In general, the Orthodox Church is the only one who did not support the Maidan at all. The only one. So there was anyone on the Maidan, but the Church - CHURCH, CARL! - there was no.
    1. Alex
      Alex 25 December 2015 12: 44 New
      +2
      Quote: gorgo
      In general, the Orthodox Church is the only one who did not support the Maidan at all. The only one. So there was anyone on the Maidan, but the Church - CHURCH, CARL! - there was no.

      Vladimir, what are you saying ?! A camp chapel in one and tents? And the Uniate Fathers who prayed every morning? All these Bandera things have long been known, and where (more precisely, from which houses) the Maidan roots grew, is also well known.
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 25 December 2015 13: 08 New
        0
        Quote: Alex
        Vladimir, what are you saying ?! A camp chapel in one and tents? And the Uniate Fathers who prayed every morning? All these Bandera things have long been known, and where (more precisely, from which houses) the Maidan roots grew, is also well known.

        It was about the ROC.
  • Velizariy
    Velizariy 25 December 2015 11: 25 New
    -2
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    Belisarius, you noticed that NOBODY on this:
    Quote: Velizariy
    And in Ukraine, Orthodox churches, not mosques, let alone synagogues, were gouged
    never paid attention? The offensive is precisely against Orthodoxy. Personally, such information makes me think about the disinterestedness of professional "wrestlers with the faithful."

    I always knew that. All Orthodox know this. Only before the receptions of these fighters were insidious, now that the Orthodox themselves lose their strength and knowledge of the faith, and there are enough Rodnovers.
  • Egoza
    Egoza 25 December 2015 11: 35 New
    +2
    Religious issues generally need to be approached carefully. And, of course, do not confuse FAITH and Fanaticism. Moreover, do not you think that church hierarchs could change the main provisions to strengthen their power, just like the “secular” rulers changed history? Moreover, I will cite the opinion of one author, which was expressed in the art book, but nonetheless ... in short, then -
    He created man in his own image. HE created the CREATIVE MAN.
    Father, this truth is one of those to which people must reach themselves. They themselves must understand that there is no good and evil, and there are only actions that either bring you closer to Him or distance you from Him. And He does not need your worship or ministry. He needs you as equals, as helpers, not slaves.
    “And no one talks about slaves.”
    - Yeah of course. God's servant is just a turn of speech. Fedor Ivanovich, words are a weapon much worse than all your bombs. It would seem that you should understand this. In the end, people become what they themselves appoint. Only by ceasing to be slaves of anyone, even His slaves, you can rise to Him! And then - think.
    The priest glanced at Allen. The girl nodded.
    - He is right. Judge for yourself why God needs slaves? If He wanted to receive slaves, He would not endow people with free will. He wants only perfection from you, so that one day you can stand by his side as assistants in creation. Helpers, but not slaves. For the slave is not able to create.
    - Then it is strange that God did not endow people with wings so that man could fly up to God.
    Aliona and I sighed in unison.
    “You yourself don’t think so,” said the girl.
    “And if He would give people wings,” I added caustically, “they would stop them from crawling.” You cannot rise to Him on a present. Clear? You need to grow up to the wings first.
    You mean people want to be ruled?
    - Most yes. Thinking on your own is very tiring. It’s much easier to think at the prompt.

    And think, ask a simple layman, how does he imagine Paradise? Yes, paradise, just from the belly, for free, well, someone else needs gurus. FREEBIE! and all you have to do is go to the temple, pray, fast, and keep the commandments ... if possible. In any case, you can repent and receive forgiveness.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 11: 59 New
      +1
      Quote: Egoza
      And think, ask a simple layman, how does he imagine Paradise? Yes, paradise, just from the belly, for free, well, someone else needs gurus.

      Nonsense complete, as "any layman" I declare to you. For the Orthodox, Paradise means getting the opportunity to communicate with God, the possibility of oneness with Him, and not some kind of sitting there on a cloud with harps (this is for Protestants tongue ) or 40 virgins-guri (to Muslims).
      1. Egoza
        Egoza 25 December 2015 12: 25 New
        +3
        Quote: Pomoryanin
        Nonsense complete, as "any layman" I declare to you. For the Orthodox, Paradise means gaining the opportunity to communicate with God, the possibility of union with Him, and not some kind of sitting there on a cloud with harps (this is for you to Protestants tongue) or 40 virgins-gurias (for Muslims).

        You didn’t come across Ukrainians! laughing And here, for the majority, it is exactly as I described! tongue There are no harps, there are banduras, gurus, well, it’s possible, only do not care, the main thing is GIVE and GIFT! wassat
        But seriously, well, at least not everyone thinks so. Although they don’t even hope for paradise. They understand that they are not worthy, but they hope that he would at least protect him ... from an atomic bomb or explosion of a volcano. Americans or Russians can use a bomb, but a volcano .... although here they are more ready to blame on the USA than on Russia.
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 12: 54 New
          0
          The most respectable! Change your social circle and you will be happy. crying
        2. Oprychnik
          Oprychnik 25 December 2015 14: 58 New
          0
          "Nonsense complete, as" any layman "I declare to you"

          He will better understand the following monologue.
          Y. Hasek "The adventures of the brave soldier Schweik." From the speech of the tipsy feldcurat Katz in the garrison prison.
          "Remember, cattle, that you are human beings and you must look through the dark darkness of reality into the boundless expanse of eternity and realize that everything here is perishable and short-lived and that only one god is eternal. Sehr gut, nicht wahr, meine Herren? And if you imagine that I will pray day and night for you, that the merciful god, boobies, breathe your soul into your frozen hearts and destroy your iniquities with your holy mercy, would take you into his bosom forever and ever and ever leave you mercilesses with your mercy, you’re severely mistaken! I don’t intend to introduce you to the abode of paradise ... "
      2. kalibr
        25 December 2015 12: 35 New
        0
        How boring however? Sit and chat ... I now have a friend in Australia. Aboriginal! According to the father. Mother of a farmer. He received education, teaches medieval history at the university. Considers himself a Christian. But ... once a year he goes to the tribe, smears white clay and goes to the forest. There, each member of his tribe has a pit in which the spirits of his ancestors dwell! In 13 years the boy is kicked out into the woods to look for a hole and he finds it! On the shore of the pit, you need to bake a chicken on a fire, eat, and throw the bones into the pit and that's it! Until next year! And wow, a man lives, he is happy with everything, a house with a pool - God and the spirits of my ancestors speak for me, and all the good pagans will be saved! You know, he comforted me!
        1. tasha
          tasha 25 December 2015 14: 10 New
          +2
          In the traditional beliefs of my people there is the concept of the lower, middle and upper worlds. You know who lives in the lower one, who we live on average, the upper world is considered to be the real world, not very specifically described.

          We are in the middle world, which is not quite real, is the abode of spirits - the inhabitants of forests, fields, rivers and various natural phenomena. And some of us can interact with this world, influence it. Spoons bend, in short. Moreover, everyone has his own mechanism of bending, he needs to be found, investigated.

          And what happens to us after death is not a reward, not a punishment. We can only regret that a person left early in our world, did not fully realize him, but another one is waiting ahead.
          1. tasha
            tasha 25 December 2015 14: 25 New
            +1
            And, of course, we also went through Christianization. But there was no particular conflict in beliefs, because the upper world also has its inhabitants. And the concept of God as an absolute Creator successfully fit into this picture. Only we have not one, but nine. The junta, however ... But the main one is.
            1. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 25 December 2015 16: 01 New
              +1
              Dear Tasha, could you still write what your people are called? My Far Eastern relatives called themselves Russians, but the blood of the Cossacks and the local, Far Eastern, Siberian population flowed in my veins. I found out about this not so long ago, but I always had an interest in the Peoples of the Russian North, Siberia, the Far East. I always loved Their tales, cartoons. At one time I listened to lectures about THREE WORLDS, also read books. But then I did not know that my great-grandmother came from the Nivkh People , and her husband, my great-grandfather, was a Cossack, like many of my other paternal ancestors. So my mother was told when she came there with me little.
              I have the same type of appearance --- Slavic.
              1. tasha
                tasha 25 December 2015 16: 15 New
                +2
                I don’t confess.
                Because I am a poor representative of my people. I'm just ashamed. I don’t know my native language, traditions too. But I was the commander of the October star, a great pioneer and an advanced Komsomol member ... I did not reach the Communists.
                1. tasha
                  tasha 25 December 2015 16: 24 New
                  +2
                  Because the whole Soviet youth-youth inspired me at school with the idea of ​​internationalism, of the brotherhood of peoples. And then, in real life, they explained something else ...
                  1. Reptiloid
                    Reptiloid 25 December 2015 18: 43 New
                    +1
                    Thank you for answering. But I think you are wrong in saying that you must be different. I don’t think that I am a bad great-grandson of these peoples. Or is the great-great-great-grandson of some other peoples. Is there any sense in this? Especially socialism was. The mother said that his father considered himself Russian, did not speak about relatives of Cossacks or about relatives of other nations. He was a Komsomol member, then early in the party. But the "lower world" also came to him early. Here are these tales and cartoons seemed something magical. There are tales from different peoples of the North at home. I somehow knew that this concerns me. There were a lot of other tales, here Italian ones are good, but alien. Russia, the USSR have always been a lot of national , let it continue to be so. I recently found out that there were not vowels about national issues. Something like that.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
  • Egoza
    Egoza 25 December 2015 11: 49 New
    +2
    Quote: Egoza
    FREEBIE!

    And it was precisely this thirst that HALIWAS very accurately calculated and used at all times. I am not talking about all believers and all priests. There are truly true believers and REAL priests who help people, but reading the Code of the Builder of Communism, you involuntarily determine that it contains all the commandments and the call to WORK on earth, and not to do something unknowingly. So the religion of communism, which included the best features of Orthodoxy, is much closer to HIM than people imagine.
    Well, about the secular ..., it was this puppeteers used, attracting to the EU, freebies - a terrible poison!
  • parusnik
    parusnik 25 December 2015 12: 51 New
    0
    Quote: Pomoryanin
    Stop, Alexey. Do not mix warm and soft and put ideology and religion on the same level. I immediately anticipate your question - as an example of the USSR. And about gratuitous wars: here is one of the typical examples of the “hourly football war” between El Salvador and Honduras. What is self-interest?

    One of the reasons for the war was the long-standing dispute between the two countries that began in the 1960th century regarding the exact location of certain sections of the common border. Moreover, the government and business circles of Honduras were annoyed by the significant trade advantages that had been provided to the more developed Salvadorian economy since the early 1969s. according to the rules of the organization of the Central American common market. By 200, the debt of Honduras to Salvador amounted to almost half of the total debt of Honduras to all the countries of the Central Administrative District - the outbreak of war allowed the government of Honduras not only to eliminate the debt problem, but also to strengthen the country's economic situation at the expense of the property of Salvadorans. Another set of problems was related to the Salvadoran settlers on territories of Honduras: El Salvador was the smallest in area and the most densely populated of all Central American states, had a more developed economy, but experienced an acute shortage of suitable land for cultivation. Most of the land in El Salvador was controlled by large landowners, which led to "land hunger" and the migration of landless peasants to neighboring Honduras. Honduras was much larger than its neighbor, not so densely populated and less developed economically, but over 18 thousand hectares -1930% agricultural land was owned by US companies, which increased land hunger in the country. The resettlement of Salvadorans in Honduras in search of free land and earnings began in the 1961s. Most migrants arrived in the country illegally, they occupied empty land and began to cultivate it; in this way, entire illegal settlements arose. In the summer of 19, in the territory of Honduras, near the village of Hacenda de Dolores, a group of Salvadorans clashed with a patrol of the civil guard of Honduras. This incident led to a deterioration in relations between the two countries. On June 1961, XNUMX, the Government of El Salvador officially demanded that the Government of Honduras investigate the death of Salvador.
    In September 1962, the Government of Honduras adopted a law on land reform, according to which the redistribution of land occupied by illegal immigrants began in favor of the citizens of Honduras (while the requests of the Salvadoran citizens were left without consideration). After the authorities of Honduras began deporting Salvadorans from the country, relations between El Salvador and Honduras became even more tense. By 1969, about 200 thousand Salvadorans and “guanacos” (immigrants from El Salvador, many of whom lived in Honduras lived in Honduras) for a long time), while no more than 50 thousand of them were citizens of Honduras or had other documents legalizing their status in the territory of Honduras ....
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 25 December 2015 13: 09 New
      -1
      In 2003, an excellent detailed article about this event was published on this resource. You should not engage in educational program with me.
      1. kalibr
        25 December 2015 14: 15 New
        0
        Yes, he is only 5 years old, recently was an anniversary!
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 14: 41 New
          0
          Guilty, scolded, 2013. Here: http://topwar.ru/32391-stochasovaya-futbolnaya-voyna.html
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 25 December 2015 16: 58 New
        0
        If you don’t need to engage in educational program, then the example of a football war is unsuccessful .. There was not a single disinterested war in the world .. In any case, there are any interests pursuing a war .. But the published article is not about that ... I am grateful to Valery for publishing it articles .. but unfortunately .. to discuss them in a normal way .. it’s not possible .. For there are a lot of “sectarians” who know the published topic superficially, in the spirit of sensations, scandals, investigations .. Yes, there are many “white spots” in history .. yes a lot is not explainable yet, but quite a lot of speculation on this subject .. And speculation is always perceived easily ..
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 25 December 2015 17: 13 New
          +2
          Honorable Alexy! Encourage your friend Valery to post articles on this topic somewhere in the Science and Religion section or in the Atheist magazine. I am sure there will be no problems with the discussion. Good luck to you.
          1. kalibr
            25 December 2015 18: 13 New
            +1
            Vladimir, but doesn’t it seem to you that if the stars are lit, then someone needs it. And if something appears here, then it appears behind the case, therefore, yes ... So neither Valery nor I need to recommend anything. I published my first article in a magazine in 1980, by the way, and when? And since that time he wrote so many that can not be counted, and this is not a figure of speech. So let's not teach each other here, right?
  • tasha
    tasha 25 December 2015 18: 20 New
    +2
    I re-read the article from top to bottom, then from bottom to top. Confusion and brainwashing.
    If the ancient Mayans had a tradition not to throw victims into the well, but, for example, to crucify them on a wooden structure, this article would have a paragraph about the impossibility of independently getting off this structure.

    Perhaps I alone in this article do not understand everything. We need one more, with explanations of what, in fact, we are talking about. You are welcome.
    1. kalibr
      25 December 2015 20: 08 New
      -1
      And you want to say that you yourself can get off the cross if you were nailed to it, or even tied? It seems to me that even iron Archie would not be able to!
      1. tasha
        tasha 26 December 2015 07: 25 New
        +1
        I had to continue and develop the idea. It would be about the impossibility of resurrection, i.e. in the tradition of Hunak Keele, we are faced with the Mayan version of the execution of Christ.
        1. kalibr
          26 December 2015 17: 48 New
          0
          This is not a tradition, but a historical chronicle, that’s the thing!
  • Gunther
    Gunther 25 December 2015 22: 55 New
    -1
    If we turn to the old Russian chronicles, we will find out ...
    в confessional canons and
    XVI's requirements
    . repentance of monks (monks, not laymen!) is described, which “in the church, standing singing and reading while sitting, raised their own hands ...

    It is interesting from which particular Old Russian annals the author found out that our ancestors lived in an environment of enduring holiness)))
    It is advisable for the author to provide the source, because I treat the author with caution, given the enchanting, in my opinion, nonsense that happens to be produced by the author:
    "The Great October Revolution in Russia is a counter-market feudal revolution
    distraught with the complexity of a new relationship
    peasantry
    .
    The author, in my opinion, is better off scribbling on the topic of knightly armor, he understands this at the very least.
    PS
    And the pictures are wonderful, I agree.
    1. kalibr
      26 December 2015 17: 47 New
      -1
      "The Great October Revolution in Russia is a counter-market feudal revolution of the peasantry, distraught with the complexity of the new relations.

      Heinrich, and I thought that everyone has long known for a long time, it’s like the sun is setting in the West! If you don’t know this, well, these are your problems. This is already in universities in lectures to students for a long time read. And from what annals the author found out ... so, after all, the article says about the heavenly regiment and so on. What is this if not holiness in the flesh?
      About the source. I already wrote in the comments and articles that they take up a lot of space, but there is no sense here. Moreover, everything is now on the Internet. Moreover, even if I post some links to archives, no one will order these cases. Sorry for the money, and why check and why? What is the point to me to deceive the public in such trifles? I don’t see any benefits ...

      minus I see, well, to prove my opinion in words? Weak?
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 26 December 2015 09: 01 New
    0
    What a good article about the Ancient World, Vyacheslav! Probably, an article that People never humbled themselves and did not want to be weak-willed toys in the hands of the Gods, both good and evil. I am very interested in your opinion on the film "Apocalypse", small details life, rituals?
    1. kalibr
      26 December 2015 17: 43 New
      +1
      I consider this one of the best historical films. Mel Gibson made a masterpiece. After all, the point is to show the story the way it could be. And he showed very truthfully!
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 26 December 2015 19: 41 New
    0
    Thank you, I am glad for this. Because the small details of life in the film are fully consistent with what they found in the excavations. Also inlaid people with precious and semiprecious stones and metals. Although for the artists, of course, an imitation of inlay. Weapons are also consistent. Maya’s descendants are alive and speak their own language. My favorite books are:
    National Museum of Anthropology, Mexico City. The publication was prepared by Direct Media Publishing House LLC by order of Komsomolskaya Pravda Publishing House CJSC, Moscow.
    Mayan Sacred Writing. Anthology. S. St. Petersburg. Amphora Publishing House.
    The History of the Pre-Columbian Civilizations. M. Thought. 1990.
    Andrei Punin, Art of Ancient Egypt, Middle Kingdom, New Kingdom, St. Petersburg, Alphabet. 2010.
    Alan Elford. The Midnight Sun. The Death and Rebirth of God in Ancient Egypt. M. Veche.
    In general, there are much more books about Egypt and Indians at home.
    And on the subject of the peoples of the North and the Far East --- separate volumes of Nikolai Shundik, Yuri Rytkheu — I read them. I will read it soon V.I. Dyachenko "High latitude hunters; Dolgans and Northern Yakuts" SPB "European House" 2005. "Tales of the peoples of the North" Smolensk, SPB 1992
    "History and Culture of the Nanai" Historical and Ethnographic Essays. SPB "Science" 2003. RAS Far East Dep.
    "Tales of a close-knit family" 1970. There are many more tales in thin covers of the same time.
    V.L. Seroshevsky "Yakuts" M 1993 2nd ed.
    T.Usoltsev poetry of St. Petersburg 2015.
    Not all read from these books

    Sincerely.
    1. kalibr
      26 December 2015 21: 35 New
      0
      You have a very good selection. I started in 1972 with Mathieu's book "The Art of Ancient Egypt" and Petrovsky and Belov "In the Land of the Big Hapi." But the interest in the history of Egypt was also fueled by the fact that the friend of my adoptive father was the rather famous Soviet science fiction writer Guy Petronius Amatuni, the author of the book “The Secret of Pitot-Kao” and he presented me his book “If the Sphinx spoke”. It is on the web, I strongly advise you to read it. She made a very strong impression on me. I dreamed of writing something similar and even started. But ... you can’t write about where he himself was not, what he himself did not see and did not feel. Well, he was young, of course. There were so-called Hermitage albums with photos of artifacts of the Crito-Minoan civilization, Crete and Cyprus, Scythian gold, but then I had to part with them. But from Cyprus there are now "live pictures" ...
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 26 December 2015 22: 09 New
    0
    You were lucky at the time of the socialist era when you overpaid for books either "by pulling" or by friendship. My relatives still remember what book they "got".
    But now you yourself are writing books !!. I will read the “Indians” right after the new “old” year, because after some events my head is still in place.
    And the Crito-Minoan theme --- there is always an understatement and little literature on it.
    1. kalibr
      27 December 2015 09: 06 New
      0
      Dear Dmitry, Yes, I also remember where, how and for whom I got this or that incident I got this or that book. And I was ordered to the INDIANS in St. Petersburg after the books of the KNIGHTS and Crusader. And although it is school, it is interesting. I had a professor in the USA, he sent me a chic publication about the Indians ... Here it is based on it. Then, however, some Indianist begged ...
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 27 December 2015 12: 31 New
    -1
    Yes, if it’s “lucky” with books --- it’s great --- you have all the options for development: to acquire, read, write. You can be very envious of this. There are a lot of articles on the network, except for VO But I Vision for a computer is not very good. With a tablet, it’s better, but also a problem.
    I didn’t succeed in reading your articles about haplogroups (at home ......), but now I think that I will come to my senses gradually and read it. With respect.
  • Gunther
    Gunther 28 December 2015 20: 05 New
    +1
    ... it's kind of like the sun is setting in the West! If you do not know this, well, these are your problems. This is already in universities in lectures to students for a long time ...

    Well, yes, yes, yes, in textbooks (at lectures) they write (read) that the German state was called the Weimar Republic in 1919–1933, while in harsh reality the official name of the state was “The German Empire” (das Deutsche Reich )
    "The Great October Revolution in Russia is a counter-market [b] feudal [/ b] coup, distraught from the [b] complexity of the new attitude [/ b] of the peasantry.

    You already decide feudal lords are crazy or peasants (a joke of humor).
    Tell from what such "new relations" the peasants went mad when it happened (February, October 1917, August 19, 1920 or in the summer of 1906) how did this madness [b] specifically [b] manifest itself, for example:
    1) In 1916, the Tambov Provincial Zemstvo Government, demanded a decrease in the supply of bread spread:
    "Apart from the right to consciously lead the population to revolt and hunger, the provincial government does not find it possible to carry out a development in the dimensions indicated by the Minister of Agriculture."
    [b] AND THIS IS ALL [/ b]!
    2) Tambov Uprising, 1918-1921
    In 1918, up to 40 thousand people took part in the uprisings and partisan movement against the Bolsheviks, by February 1921 the number of rebels had reached 50 thousand people, they were suppressed by poisonous gas.
    If we turn to the old Russian chronicles, we find out that our ancestors lived in an environment of enduring holiness. The “God's regiment” in heaven helped Alexander Nevsky defeat the [b] Germans [/ b].

    Determine that the old Russian annals - the period of 9-14 century.
    Novgorod The first chronicle of a senior account of the Battle of the Ice:
    'Bringing Svaya in power was great, and in Murman, and Sum, and in the ship the multitude was much evil;
    His eat the prince and eat his piskups .....
    Where is there about "[b] heavenly regiment [/ b]"?
    I looked selectively through the Novgorod First Anniversary of the elder and the younger vods (Academy of Sciences of the USSR, Moscow-Leningrad, 1950), “The Tale of Bygone Years” and somehow I didn’t find that “our ancestors lived surrounded by eternal sanctity”, usually lived like we.
    I will not find fault with [b] Germans [/ b], maybe you consider all foreigners together with your sisters to be Germans (from the word dumb according to Mladenov).
    About the logical inconsistency - you jerk about the "enduring sanctity" in the annals, and the requirements with masturbating cause you understanding and trust))).
    To summarize, for example, if you walk on the Web, and are widely quoted, Russophobic filth from A. Rosenbaum (dated 16.10.2000), attributed to Saltykov-Shchedrin: “What will happen in 200 years? Will they drink and steal!”, Then this is not a reason filthiness to quote, and even more so to attribute to the great Russian writer.
    We try on the tooth information)))
    Something like that.
    PS
    The minus is not mine.
    1. kalibr
      28 December 2015 21: 21 New
      -1
      You write some strange things. Do you want to say that I came up with the regiment of God? Here in VO there is my article about the Battle of the Ice and there was also a historiography about it. There is an article about the Battle of Kulikovo Field. Also on VO and there are references to the divine completely. And where are you our Russophobia? If you do not know something, this does not mean that it is not. And again, I will not even argue with you about the revolution. Already written - it reads in the course of the history of the Fatherland in universities of the Russian Federation. Everything has already been proved for a long time, a lot of dissertations and doctoral and candidate ones are defended. So take it for granted, but no - look, read, no one bothers. And you know, no one would print my books and articles, if all the facts from me were not confirmed to all 100% by references to reputable sources. You go to VO, look what happens here - there are a lot of interesting things, including mine.
  • Gunther
    Gunther 29 December 2015 20: 02 New
    +1
    Vyacheslav, it’s not me who writes, it’s written in the Novgorod First Annals of the senior platoon.
    About "dissertations", in Ukraine "for a long time already
    proven, defended a bunch of dissertations and
    Doctoral and Ph.D. "on the theme of the great ancient ukrov, etc. I scratch, but this does not mean that I believe this nonsense.
    1. kalibr
      2 January 2016 08: 29 New
      -1
      Russia and Ukraine are two different things.