Military Review

Fabulous, magical and amazing military equipment

195
Fabulous, magical and amazing military equipment



Anyone who has heard about the war in the Pacific between the Japanese and the Americans, but did not go into details, will tell you right away one legendary model of the aircraft: the Zero A6М5. The same fighter. Fighter, who became a legend, became a symbol of the entire Pacific campaign. Yes, the Americans won the war, but the films, but the books, but the models will remind you of a living legend. And here there is one small question: “what was the best in him, in this very Zero?”. Such is: a bad and bad question. All praise William of our Shakespeare, but for what?

Unsurpassed maneuverability and range - this is the answer of the historian. And we recall that the WWII fighter had many characteristics, such as: speed, speed, firepower, security, view from the pilot's seat, reliability, radio, etc. Many characteristics, very many. So, booking and radio on the “Zero” at the beginning of the war were absent as a class. Range? Yes, it was, while there were experienced pilots. There were no experienced pilots, there was no range, since it was not obtained constructively, but by dancing with a tambourine around engine adjustments in flight. Armament and speed of imagination, too, did not hit. So what's the deal?

Allegedly, the Americans, having captured one instance in Alaska, rushed to research and design it, based on the test results, got their "antizero". Those same Americans, whose industry was an order of magnitude stronger than the Japanese, the aircraft industry produced more aircraft than the rest of the planet, and science worked wonders. Such is the “magic Zero”. Me-109 overgrown with even more legends and firmly entered the Russian language. Truly legend aviation. It must be said that in 1937 the Me-109 (Bf-109) was magnificent in the sky of Spain. What was, was. But at that time, fighters were aging much faster than today, and in 1941 the Me-109 was no longer so unexpected and “unkillable”. Time passed, but in the 44th most massive Luftwaffe aircraft he was - Me-109. I know - modifications changed, there was an “upgrade”. The German aircraft industry was second to none - better and stronger than the Japanese. But the basic design imposed certain restrictions, and by the year 44, the Me-109 was "a bit" out of date. Especially out of date by 1944, Zero (which also changed the numbers of modifications).

But both Japanese and German aircraft fought. They fought in spite of everything — they lacked fuel and experienced pilots. The next (exactly the next cause of problems!) Is the lack of airplanes. Those. even the lack of airplanes was not so critical compared to the lack of intelligent pilots! That very thing turned out to be even less critical - the obsolescence of the structure (which, of course, was the case). German aircraft designers created just incredible, futuristic fighter models, but the main load was still the same one hundred and ninth, which entered the battle back in Spain ... The main burden of the war in the Pacific Ocean was taken by the Zero who entered the battle in the skies of China ... The Japanese also created the newest aircraft, but they were built less.

Many decades later, amateurs and professionals will learn history War in the air, and their attention will attract Me-262 and Me-163, but in the air war, they did not play a special role. In the bloody 1944 in the skies of Germany, only “old men” went into battle ... By the way, the FW-190 was not much newer. Such are the "innovations". Simply, both the Japanese and the German empires were under severe air pressure and would not be able to stop the aircraft factories for retooling production to new models - this would lead to a catastrophe. The situation was saved by experienced pilots (while they were).

Immediately, an assumption arises that if everything was bad in the Luftwaffe with the new models in the ranks, then everything was fine with the Pantservafe. This is a wrong assumption - everything was even worse in Pantservafe. "How is that !!!" - cries out a lover of German armored vehicles, tearing his voice to a sob. “How so ?!” - holders of puffy color encyclopedias with amusing tanchiki of the Third Reich in an amusing militaristic coloring will cry out in chorus. I will explain it popularly: in my native Yekaterinburg there is an urgent need to re-equip tram parks with new models of trams, and so, at each exhibition we are shown the latest, extraordinary models of trams. They are simply breathtaking, they are shown on TV, but mostly old Czechs run through the city streets. But ask someone about the tram, and he immediately remembers Innoprom and the futuristic cars.

Ask someone about the Wehrmacht armored vehicles, and he will immediately call you Tiger, Panther or Ferdinand / Elephanta. Sturmtigr or Jagdpanther are also on the menu. But in practice, the main vehicle for moving around the battlefield "Guderianov's nestlings" were T IV (in very different versions). Those same T IV, which were the best outside the USSR 1941 year. They remained the basis of Pantservafe from the beginning to the end of the war. A bit boring and offensive, I understand, and, nevertheless, - T IV. No options.

But Panther, despite its late appearance, was “magical” a tank? Superweapon, Wunderwaffe? Discussions are still ongoing on this topic. Of course, the Panther was a new, powerful and interesting tank, but suffered from numerous "childhood diseases." Panther in labor exceeded the "four" somewhere in 2 times. To say that it was 2 times more effective on the battlefield is quite difficult.

By the way, Hitler likes to “kick” for inattention to jet aircraft. At the same time, none of the "pinners" does not analyze data on the effectiveness of the use of Me-262 fighters, for example. And this very efficiency somehow does not please the eye. The project “jet fighter” devoured a bunch of scarce resources, but he gave very little to the downed Allied aircraft. And by the way, jet fighters demanded very experienced pilots. At the output of this project in 44-45 issued aircraft with unsurpassed speed. The combat effectiveness of jet fighters? It is highly questionable at such costs. By the way, jet bombers showed themselves well (namely, they were demanded by Hitler).

You know, telling in the book / chapter about the 1944 year about Me-109 and T IV is a bit boring, so they begin to describe technical delights. But at the same time they forget to mention how much resources were spent on these “delights” and what return it gave. You know, such a funny cost / benefit ratio? So, for the new technology during the war, it was not always very interesting. The problem was that the new equipment still had to be “brought to mind” in production, mastered in the front-line units, learned how to use in battle, develop a new tactic. And only then the miracleweapon It became a miracle weapon. By the end of the war, all the belligerent powers found out that the training of pilots and tankers is more difficult and longer than the production of aircraft and tanks. The same applied to ships (and especially warships!).

The successes of the German and Japanese armed forces in the first stage of the war were due to the high level of organization and training of these very armed forces, the excellent training of pilots, sailors and tank men, and not some extraordinary characteristics of military equipment. In the same Italy, Prince Borghese achieved much more than the rest of Italy during the war. Technique, which possessed Yunio Valerio Scipione Borghese, does not strike the imagination and does not please the eye (it is rather primitive). And, nevertheless, he shook the British fleet. The level of Soviet aircraft factories and their personnel was lower than German, but the main reason for the failure of the Red Army aviation was still considered to be not the relatively low characteristics of fighters in the initial period of the war, but very different factors (in serious work). Even if by the beginning of the war we managed to rearm this very aircraft, for example, completely from the I-16 to the Yak-1, it would hardly have solved the problem of the struggle for air superiority.

I certainly do not want to say that the new military equipment is not needed, harmful, costly and must be fought with proven “old-fashioned” methods. But Hitler did not beat France at all due to the high characteristics of German tanks and aircraft, but due to their skillful use. In 1940, Britain and France were not inferior to Germany in tanks, guns and aircraft. The characteristics of the British and French weapons were also on par. But by itself, the weapon of war does not win. Battles too. The organization of the armed forces, their training, the development of tactics for the use of these same weapons are no less important than the weapons themselves. For example, the "obsolete" Soviet cavalry divisions showed themselves very well in the Great Patriotic War (but it is not customary to talk about this — old ones).

Therefore, in itself, rearmament on the Armata, T-50 and later on the list is unlikely to solve all the problems of the Russian Armed Forces. After all, the Crimean War, for example, won first of all not rifled guns vs smooth-bore and not steel steamers vs sailing ships (as is customary to think), but the general production and logistics capabilities of the British and French empires. And in World War I backward Russia suffered not from the absence of some “vundervaffe”, but from the banal lack of shells to the existing artillery systems. And from the lack of full-fledged heavy artillery, oddly enough. So everything is simple, went and to some extent corny. Although there are exceptions: for example, the Dreyse needle-rifle, the Austro-Prussian war and the battle of Königgrätz (Sadovaya).

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  1. Foxbed
    Foxbed 15 December 2015 11: 47 New
    27
    So what is the article about? what
    1. avg
      avg 15 December 2015 11: 54 New
      84
      An article about the fact that the correct organization of the troops meeting modern requirements, their "sharpening" for precise interaction to fulfill the main task, along with high combat training, is more important than their saturation with various "wunderwaves".
      1. Inok10
        Inok10 15 December 2015 12: 05 New
        +3
        Quote: avg
        And in World War I, backward Russia did not suffer from the absence of a “wunderwaffe”, but from a banal lack of shells for existing artillery systems. And from the lack of full-fledged heavy artillery, oddly enough. That's so simple, it went and to some extent corny.

        .. if so simple .. I quote from the last paragraph .. think about it ..
        And in World War I backward Russia suffered not from the lack of a certain “wunderwaffe,” but from a banal lack of shells for existing artillery systems. And from the lack of full-fledged heavy artillery, oddly enough. That's so simple, it went and to some extent corny.

        .. highlighted, now it’s clear why so many words were written by the author? .. hi
        1. Inok10
          Inok10 15 December 2015 12: 14 New
          13
          .. and more .. about a highly organized German army in the First World ..
          In the battle of Gumbinnen, German units during the attack led the captured Russians ahead of themselves. Eyewitness A. A. Uspensky: In the battle of Gumbinnen, brave Germans dishonored themselves with an inhuman atrocious crime: during one of the attacks, they put a handful of unfortunate Russian prisoners, unarmed in the front ranks of their attackers ... until they were all shot! ...
          In the battle of Gumbinnen, the German horse artillery division went to an open position to destroy the Russian artillery batteries in a closed position. Such an arrangement of guns, when the battery is well camouflaged and becomes less vulnerable to the enemy, and firing at an auxiliary aiming point, was first mastered in the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 - 1905. It allowed the Russian gunners to destroy this division as soon as possible. An eyewitness, a Russian officer of the 106th Ufa Regiment, later recalled:
          Here is the heroic artillery division, shot by hurricane fire of Russian artillery. From a distance, some of the murdered officers and gunners can be mistaken for the living, so expressive are their glassy eyes and frozen gestures and poses.
          Here is a young officer with a raised saber, his head thrown back and an open, shouting mouth (probably a command), with his eyes directed to the sky, froze at the very gun! Here, a soldier, completely as if alive, half inserted the shell into the gun and, with his hands not taken from him, kneeling, fixed his eyes with a kind of special surprise upward, as if asking: "What's the matter ?!" and so on. These figures seemed alive from a distance, but when we got closer, we saw that three-quarters of the officer's head had been torn off from behind, and only one mask remained, and the soldier had his entire stomach knocked out. Obviously, death was instant and painless, which is why such a vivid expression on their faces was preserved. Here is a battery, shot at the very exit to the position in full harness, which did not have time not only to open fire, but also to stop: all the killed people and horses lie together in their places, and the soldiers even lie on horseback or nearby.
          Horses! Poor animals! What are they to blame for all this disaster that happened between people ?!
          - A. A. Uspensky “At War” - Kaunas, 1932

          .. I have the honor ..
          1. Inok10
            Inok10 15 December 2015 12: 33 New
            +8
            ..and about the backwardness of the Russian Empire at the beginning of the twentieth century ..
            At the beginning of the twentieth century, the growth of the national economy of Russia led to an increase in social wealth and well-being of the population. For the years 1894-1914 the state budget of the country grew 5,5 times, the gold reserve - 3,7 times. At the same time, government revenues grew without the slightest increase in the tax burden. Direct taxes in Russia were 4 times less than in France and Germany, and 8,5 times less than in England; indirect taxes - on average half as much as in Austria, Germany and England. Significant amounts from the budget were allocated for the development of culture and education. The well-being of the population was reflected in the increase in its number, which was unparalleled in Europe. Many domestic economists and politicians have argued that maintaining the development trends that existed in 1900–1914 will inevitably lead Russia to the position of world leader in 20–30 years, giving her the opportunity to dominate Europe, exceed the economic potential of all European powers combined . Such prospects confused Western politicians.

            source: http://www.russiafederation.ru/historyrussia/2/11.htm
            1. excomandante
              excomandante 15 December 2015 13: 05 New
              13
              They are well-known, but there is no major conclusion - it is still necessary to add about the "crunch of a French roll";) What the hell is "world leadership" with a technical lag and an agrarian crisis ?! In vain, perhaps, Stolypin tried by the most tough methods to save the "prosperous" RI from death ?! And how, unfortunate fool, did not notice that he lives in the most prosperous and promising country in the world))) Population growth is in no way connected with "prosperity". Now we live much richer, and women are in no hurry to give birth. Population growth in Ingushetia is explained by a single factor - the country was 95% peasant. In all countries and at all times, the patriarchal peasant family gives a high birth rate, regardless of other factors. Rural fertility has nothing to do with any "prosperity". It's just that other powers have already carried out urbanization and industrialization, and Russia was late. When the same England or France were peasants, the birth rate was no lower)))
              1. Condor-a
                Condor-a 15 December 2015 14: 28 New
                -2
                Quote: excomandante
                Population growth has nothing to do with "prosperity".

                What kind of insanity? )))))))
                1. excomandante
                  excomandante 15 December 2015 14: 29 New
                  +2
                  What, are you suffering? ))))
                  1. Condor-a
                    Condor-a 15 December 2015 14: 32 New
                    -12
                    Go look for fools in another country, "revolutionist".
                    1. Condor-a
                      Condor-a 15 December 2015 18: 13 New
                      -1
                      Quote: excomandante
                      What, are you suffering? ))))

                      You and the minusers have everything ahead of you, or you haven’t noticed yet.
                      First, the Supreme punishes for this with degeneration, and then people ...
                      1. excomandante
                        excomandante 16 December 2015 11: 32 New
                        -1
                        I recommend turning off the random nonsense generator.
                      2. Condor-a
                        Condor-a 16 December 2015 14: 14 New
                        0
                        I recommend it rolls to the nearest black hole ...
                  2. Condor-a
                    Condor-a 17 December 2015 06: 52 New
                    0
                    12 degenerates put a minus ... laughing
              2. mav1971
                mav1971 15 December 2015 19: 57 New
                +4
                Quote: Condor-A
                Quote: excomandante
                Population growth has nothing to do with "prosperity".

                What kind of insanity? )))))))


                The absolute truth and not insanity.
                Growth of well-being - is not the reason for increasing fertility.
                It is proved by practice of all countries of the world.

                even sayings are in fact real from life - "to produce poverty."
                But the sayings "to produce a middle class" are not in any transcription.
                something like this. :)))
                1. Condor-a
                  Condor-a 16 December 2015 02: 18 New
                  0
                  These transcriptions and similar "evidence" are understood exactly the opposite and are accepted only by those who have a maximum of one child in the family.
            2. lelyk72
              lelyk72 15 December 2015 22: 12 New
              0
              In my opinion, in the animal kingdom in general, and in humans in particular, the higher the "welfare" (in the animal kingdom - survival), the lower the birth rate. So "population growth" is the exact opposite of "wealth." IMHO.
          2. alicante11
            alicante11 15 December 2015 13: 29 New
            +3
            . and also about the backwardness of the Russian Empire in the early twentieth century ..


            Wealth grew, but not among the people, but among the Grand Dukes, as the oligarchs are now. If in the 2000 and something fell into the people, now the oligarchs themselves are barely enough for new yachts and football clubs.
            1. Condor-a
              Condor-a 15 December 2015 18: 10 New
              -2
              Yes, people probably bred because of hunger pooh

              but what about Velkik oats and not about the merchants of the first guild, where there were almost no Russian? lol
          3. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 15 December 2015 13: 29 New
            +4
            Quote: Inok10
            ..and about the backwardness of the Russian Empire at the beginning of the twentieth century ..
            Many domestic economists and politicians have argued that maintaining the development trends that existed in 1900–1914 will inevitably lead Russia to the position of world leader in 20–30 years, giving her the opportunity to dominate Europe, exceed the economic potential of all European powers combined .

            The effect of low base in all its glory. And also - thoughtless approximation of the pace of development of the initial period for 30 years in advance.
            Reminds Mark Twain:
            For one hundred and seventy-six years, the Lower Mississippi shortened two hundred and forty-two miles, that is, an average of about a mile and one third per year. Hence, any calmly reasoning person, unless he is blind and not completely, will be able to see that in the ancient Silurian era, and she was blowing exactly a million years in November next year, the Lower Mississippi was over one million three hundred thousand miles in length and hung over Gulf of Mexico like fishing rods. Based on the same data, everyone will easily understand that in seven hundred and forty-two years Lower Mississippi will be only one and three quarters of a mile in length, and the streets of Cairo and New Orleans will merge, and these two cities will live and live, managed by one mayor and choosing a general city council. Still, there is something exciting in science. You’ll invest some trifling amount of facts, and take a colossal dividend in the form of conclusions. Yes, even with interest.
          4. gla172
            gla172 15 December 2015 13: 55 New
            0
            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%80%
            D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%86%D0%BE%D0%B2
          5. Samurai3X
            Samurai3X 15 December 2015 14: 10 New
            +1
            Take an interest in volumes and building up the construction of railways. Arteries of the empire. Since 1897 year. It contains all the statistics that you will need.
            PS Not just train, but train highways.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 15 December 2015 14: 33 New
              +5
              Quote: Samurai3X
              Take an interest in volumes and building up the construction of railways. Arteries of the empire. Since 1897 year. It contains all the statistics that you will need.
              PS Not just railways, namely railways.

              And also - the state of these roads at the end of 1916. Of the 20 steam locomotives, only 239 could operate. Of the 10 wagons, 215.
              Despite the fact that the required number of steam locomotives for the 1916 mobplan was at least 23.
              1. Samurai3X
                Samurai3X 15 December 2015 19: 44 New
                +3
                Given that more or less the needs of the country have provided for 1960-m ...
                If the country was rise, less hunger, etc. 1917 would not have happened.
                But now famous in the face of saints (!!!) Nicholas II just scored a big and thick bolt on the problems. It was easier for him to shoot crows, to grumble with his wife and kids.
                How this churchpecker the church could so lift up I refuse to understand. As a man, I feel sorry for him, but as the then ruler of the country, he (specifically he, and not the kings and the monarchy as a whole) causes deep disgust.
                1. tropic
                  tropic 15 December 2015 20: 22 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Samurai3X
                  How this churchpecker the church could so lift up I refuse to understand. As a man, I feel sorry for him, but as the then ruler of the country, he (specifically he, and not the kings and the monarchy as a whole) causes deep disgust.

                  Do you regret that he did not unleash terror and drown the country in blood? But he could easily do it. As a later Ulyanov did, nicknamed Lenin. That's why the saint that he regretted the country. Not yourself.
                  However, some love those who destroy them. A kind of bdsm which. There are many, of different categories.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 16 December 2015 10: 45 New
                    0
                    Quote: tropic
                    Do you regret that he did not unleash terror and drown the country in blood? But he could easily do it. As a later Ulyanov did, nicknamed Lenin. That's why the saint that he regretted the country. Not yourself.

                    The wolf took pity on the mare - left a tail and a mane.
                    The softness of Nicholas turned into two revolutions and the Civil, which claimed much more lives.

                    And what, nafig, terror and drowning of the country in blood? The fish is rotten from the head! It was necessary to cleanse the "elite", which, taking advantage of impunity, and eventually led the country to 1917. This elite was so confident in their own impunity that even the instinct of self-preservation atrophied (as a result, everything ended in October).

                    Why should the elite be cleansed? Well, for example, for lobbying the interests of French companies, which turned into Schneider's dominance in the army artillery and an almost two-year delay in deciding on the construction of future "Barricades" (as a result, the plant did not have time for war). For the collapse of the domestic artillery industry: first, after the RYAV, the Perm plant was almost killed (the workers ate from the gardens), and then they made a leapfrog when the factories were each time given orders for a new type of guns. For robbing the military budget during the war by supplying shells at a price 30-50-80% higher than the "ineffective and too expensive" breech. And, like the icing on the cake, for the surrender of a state-owned admiralty to a private company (which did not even have a charter and did not hold a shareholders' meeting) - for free lease with the right to purchase. Moreover, immediately after this, the company was given an order for the construction of two LCs and even an advance was paid.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. tropic
                      tropic 16 December 2015 12: 59 New
                      0
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      The wolf took pity on the mare - left a tail and a mane.

                      Those. like this? Voluntarily and without the Civil War, resigned. Did you regret it?
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      The softness of Nicholas turned into two revolutions and the Civil, which claimed much more lives.

                      In fact, Nikolai has nothing to do with this. Moreover, there was only one revolution. The same one, February 1917. Which, thanks to Nikolai's "softness", ended peacefully and bloodlessly. All. There is no need to drive on him further. Then he was out of work.
                      Then all the actions of Ulyanov and his gang. They have in their "asset" a counter-revolutionary restoration coup (remember, liars-Bolsheviks are actually historically not revolutionaries, but just counter-revolutionaries), and the Civil War, and the disintegration of Russia, and the genocide of the population, and much more. These are all their deeds. Only Agitprop worked very hard at one time to merge this on others. And so, in fact, they are dirty deeds.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      It was necessary to cleanse the "elite", which, taking advantage of impunity, eventually brought the country to 1917.

                      Who told you this crap? Who told you at all that you need to "cleanse the elite"? Those. in fact, this term means its destruction, as the Bolsheviks did. Remember, the elite, this is the country. It has been nurtured for centuries. If you destroy the elite of a country, you will destroy the country itself, this was perfectly understood in the Middle Ages. What the Bolsheviks did, they also understood very well. They destroyed that Russia. Destroying her elite.
                      But there is no new one. And for a long time will not be. The centuries required for this have not yet passed.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      This elite was so confident in its own impunity that even its instinct for self-preservation atrophied (as a result, it all ended in October).

                      I want to upset you, but in October 1917. nothing significant has happened in the life of Russia. In November, it happened. Elections to the Constituent Assembly. And that’s all. And your VOSR, it's just a smoke screen, a dummy. Inflated in time to cover the January (1918) counter-revolutionary restoration coup.
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      Why cleanse the elite?

                      Then you write nonsense. Pimple on the ass you are going to treat by cutting off the legs on the very neck. No cases of abuse could be the basis for the destruction of the country (i.e. its elite).
                  2. Samurai3X
                    Samurai3X 16 December 2015 21: 01 New
                    0
                    And he drowned the country in blood. You know, the Civil War. It was like ours. In the country, citizens cut each other with a hoot.
                    2 forces appeared, which tried to occupy the empty position of the main power in the country. The power that the great martyr epic pros * al.
                    1. tropic
                      tropic 16 December 2015 21: 35 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Samurai3X
                      And he drowned the country in blood. You know, the Civil War. It was like ours. In the country, citizens cut each other with a hoot.

                      Who drowned? Nicholas 2? What does he have to do with it? It began in February 1818. A year after his abdication. In response to the fact that the Bolsheviks carried out a counter-revolutionary coup.
                      You should learn the history of your country. All the same, you have a Russian flag. The provision obliges.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. tokens2
                  tokens2 15 December 2015 21: 01 New
                  +1
                  Samurai3X
                  But now famous in the face of saints (!!!) Nicholas II just scored a big and thick bolt on the problems. It was easier for him to shoot crows, to grumble with his wife and kids.

                  In fact, all the reins of government in the country (during the war) were carried out by the generals and the cabinet of ministers, all together they hatched plans to overthrow the tsar. It was possible to overthrow them only as a result of "mistakes and miscalculations" of the tsar.
                  And if there is a vacuum around the throne ... it is certainly tragic.
                  It was not in vain that Peter 1 brought people like Menshikov closer to him. Although he stole, the sovereign’s affairs were strictly controlled.
                  Unfortunately, the oath of allegiance to the monarch in the 20th century ceased to be relevant. The 20th century has become a century of betrayal. Monarchs have lost a protective and guiding function for many peoples.
                  All captured loot.
                4. Inok10
                  Inok10 15 December 2015 21: 15 New
                  +4
                  Quote: Samurai3X
                  Given that more or less the needs of the country have provided for 1960-m ...
                  If the country was rise, less hunger, etc. 1917 would not have happened.
                  But now famous in the face of saints (!!!) Nicholas II just scored a big and thick bolt on the problems. It was easier for him to shoot crows, to grumble with his wife and kids.
                  How this churchpecker the church could so lift up I refuse to understand. As a man, I feel sorry for him, but as the then ruler of the country, he (specifically he, and not the kings and the monarchy as a whole) causes deep disgust.

                  .. I answer with numbers ..
                  From 1900 to 1913, exports of Russian goods doubled, significantly exceeding imports. In 1913, export amounted to 1,52 billion rubles, while import amounted to 1,37 billion rubles (in previous years the difference was greater). Due to the positive trade balance, there was a constant increase in gold reserves (on the eve of World War II, it amounted to 1,7 billion rubles and became the third in the world).

                  .. hi
                  1. Inok10
                    Inok10 15 December 2015 21: 30 New
                    +3
                    .. and add ..
                    “Give us 20 peaceful years and you will not recognize Russia,” said then-Prime Minister P.A. Stolypin, who began large-scale reforms in 1906. Therefore, he was killed in 1911 by those forces whose anti-Russian plans would have been crossed out by a stronger Russia.
                    Lenin recognized that with the success of the Stolypin reforms, a revolution would be impossible (Lenin V.I. Poln. Sobr. Soch. T. 12. C. 193.); and Trotsky later stated: if the reform had been completed, “the Russian proletariat could never have come to power in 1917” (Trotsky L. History of the Russian Revolution. Berlin, 1931. T. I. S. 72.) Alas Stolypin was not found a worthy replacement.
                    .. hi
                    1. excomandante
                      excomandante 16 December 2015 11: 37 New
                      0
                      Stolypin was killed when the question of his resignation had already been finally decided, i.e. his death did not affect anything. Alas, his reforms did not lead to any improvement, they failed miserably. Even to the creation of collective farms, the peasants were more positive than to the Stolypin reform of "land management".
                  2. Samurai3X
                    Samurai3X 16 December 2015 13: 47 New
                    0
                    You never looked at the pace of construction.
                    Where are the numbers from? Can I have a source? Or is it a quote from a vyser called "Russia We Lost"? If so, then such facts can only be wiped off.
                    And the problem was not that something was not done in this area. Just nothing was done. By inertia, the single statesmen tried to fix something, but they were not supported at all from above.
                    It was possible to hire at least 100 Stolypin, it would absolutely not change anything. The king was not just a rag, he was a limp nonentity who could not inspire respect in ARMY. Combat the generals and admirals looked at him like an empty place. If the sun is not for you, then everything is bad ... very, very bad.
                    By the way, something similar happened in the USSR 1990. The population was disappointed both at the top and in power in general. But the army made a much wiser decision than in 1917. They did not take sides.
                    Threat For more accurate information, contact such a thing as
                    Statistical Yearbook at 1913, Ed. IN AND. Sharago
                5. gladcu2
                  gladcu2 16 December 2015 17: 08 New
                  0
                  Samurai 3x

                  The fact that Nikolai had fun shooting at crows. The information may be provocative, but your negative nonetheless is directed to the state basis.

                  Catch the difference?

                  The article does not say about the capabilities of the Russian empire. Or you deliberately withdraw the thread of thought, which is sabotage. Or not consciously, then the problem is in your level of development.
                  1. Samurai3X
                    Samurai3X 16 December 2015 20: 56 New
                    0
                    Do you even understand the thread specifically for this discussion? Or have you forgotten glasses somewhere? Inok wrote, quoting from somewhere that the country was on some rise in 1910-13. I challenged that. If you don’t even bother to look for the basis of the dispute, then this says something about your level of development.
                    The state foundation that then held the country together rotted.
                    The one who was supposed to take solutions, not really doing it.
                    PS I do not believe that he was often engaged in shooting at crows, but the fact that he was very little engaged in government activities is a fact. His father sat in his office from morning till night and tried to delve into many things. CAM. Most likely he didn’t completely trust anyone from his entourage, that’s why the success was like that. His children write about this in their diaries. He did not allow himself to bask with his wife and children, because he understood the degree of responsibility. Despite a bunch of advisers, Alexander 3 had his own opinion and he did as he wanted. At least in domestic politics.
                    With him, the country began the way out of the swamp in which it was spinning. The pace of construction of the same railways only increased by the end of the 19 century. The national debt was near-zero. New manufactories, almost forced merchants to invest in new plants, etc.
                    1. Condor-a
                      Condor-a 17 December 2015 00: 53 New
                      0
                      Quote: Samurai3X
                      The state foundation that then held the country together rotted.

                      Do not confuse the top of the pyramid with its base? What is the basis?
                    2. Samurai3X
                      Samurai3X 17 December 2015 15: 57 New
                      0
                      King. All laws, all territories, the whole country were "connected" on the basis that it was ruled by one person. He "owned" the country. In theory, everything in Russia belonged to him. He even gave out titles and lands on "lease" for indefinite periods. In fact, it was far from the case, but ordinary people thought so.
                      It is clear that God forbid to touch any Yusupovs with their billions. The train will immediately be derailed due to residual stresses in the rails.
                      You remove the king and no laws that hold the power in force no longer apply.
                      PS It would be different, the civil war would not be so bloody and long. And it wouldn’t be called Civil. It would be the suppression of major uprisings. History itself proved that everything hung on the king. As soon as the king died (legally), the country was literally torn to pieces.
                    3. Condor-a
                      Condor-a 17 December 2015 16: 00 New
                      0
                      Is the king immortal? Well, if only in chess ...
                    4. Samurai3X
                      Samurai3X 17 December 2015 17: 39 New
                      0
                      Are you some kind of fool? Tsar - as a legal and administrative title, which is transferred from one ruler to another.
                    5. Condor-a
                      Condor-a 17 December 2015 17: 48 New
                      0
                      It looks like you ... How can a title be a state basis and rot? request
                      You have your own lunatic emperor, who comes from Amaterasu some mirror of the fan of the door and the ball, go teach him crowing ...
                    6. Samurai3X
                      Samurai3X 17 December 2015 21: 52 New
                      0
                      Are you fooling around? OK. Then the conversation is over. Success in life ... It seems that someone will really need them
                      laughing
                    7. Condor-a
                      Condor-a 18 December 2015 02: 30 New
                      0
                      you - no ... Why did you want to say something?
                      go look in his mirror.
                    8. Samurai3X
                      Samurai3X 18 December 2015 04: 07 New
                      0
                      I look every day before I bring the children to school. It feels good. Even shaved.
                      I’m wondering, although you may not answer ...
                      What about your grades at school / vocational school / university?
                    9. Cyclone
                      Cyclone 18 December 2015 07: 35 New
                      0
                      Is everyone polar? lol Well done...
                      They will be even worse than yourself.
                      Vopsche samurai smearing from under his skirt of the Russian Tsar is significant. laughing
                    10. Samurai3X
                      Samurai3X 18 December 2015 13: 08 New
                      0
                      And when did you manage to give birth to such?
                    11. Cyclone
                      Cyclone 18 December 2015 14: 20 New
                      0
                      I'm not even going to help with this ...
  • vladim.gorbunow
    vladim.gorbunow 15 December 2015 17: 12 New
    +1
    The construction of railways in Ingushetia was quite a sawing-and-cleaning activity. characteristic of Russian capitalism. Dzerzhinsky and Stalin subjected him to devastating criticism in 1925-26. Criticized naturally constructively, in a difficult struggle their program was adopted, which determined the development of the economy up to the present day. Let's turn to the article "Rail" by e. Brockhaus and Efron. Data there in pounds and feet, converting them to metric units allows you to find out that the maximum royal rail had 32 kg. in a running meter. The most popular P-50 (named after Dzerzhinsky - Stalin) - 52 kg per 1 meter. And there is also the P-70. Replacing the rails and building up the cushions made it possible to switch to 4-axle 60 tons cars instead of 20-ton imperial ones. The standard for freight trains is 60 cars instead of 40. The length of the station tracks had to be doubled. Neither Witte, nor Stolypin, nor Kokovtsev even thought about such transformations, although it was technologically possible. In the thirties they built only TurkSib, they were going to build a BAM with a bridge to Sakhalin. But in 41, he carried out a great evacuation, and then brought the T-34 to the front. , KV, IS-2.
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 15 December 2015 17: 33 New
      +2
      Yes, it seems like no one took the rails from TransSib, but then it was not necessary to carry the T-34, KV, IS-2
      They were not going to build it
      1. vladim.gorbunow
        vladim.gorbunow 15 December 2015 19: 55 New
        -1
        I didn’t understand what you wanted to say. But if we are talking about the war of 1914-18, then one of the reasons for the defeat of Russia was the transport and, elementary lack of cargo turnover. Purely militarily, it would be possible to create rail artillery batteries for naval guns, as it was in besieged Leningrad with Lyuttsov’s guns. And thereby partially compensate for the German superiority in heavy guns. But there was no technical possibility due to the ugly small carrying capacity of the Tsarist railway.
    2. Samurai3X
      Samurai3X 15 December 2015 19: 49 New
      +2
      The point is not the load, etc. Then in all countries they did not count on a sharp increase in the load on the canvas.
      The point is the growth rate of construction. Every year it was less and less.
      And since 1910 of the year, the French generally gave money (on credit naturally) and kicked our Ministry of Ways and Communications. To tighten the mobilization dates.
  • vladim.gorbunow
    vladim.gorbunow 15 December 2015 16: 10 New
    +3
    Both My grandfathers, Gorbunov D.F. and Volobuev K.I. - fellow villagers from the Rozhdestvensky Christmas Kursk region did not notice all the prosperity. And together they moved from the trenches of the First World War to the ranks of the Red Army. According to family tradition, they did this quite voluntarily. When people after 3,5 years of heavy, bloody war take up arms again, they understand what they are fighting for.
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 15 December 2015 16: 25 New
      -5
      Indeed? Maybe they were still militant atheists?
      1. vladim.gorbunow
        vladim.gorbunow 15 December 2015 17: 31 New
        0
        Exactly. They loved reading, especially the mother’s father. He was collecting books. So mother read the Hero of our time and Anna Karenina with ery and yaty. And peasant life was despised for hopelessness and poverty, but it worked hard all its life.
        1. Condor-a
          Condor-a 15 December 2015 17: 38 New
          +1
          Quote: vladim.gorbunow
          So.

          And why not?
          The peasant will never despise his peasant life, otherwise he is not a peasant. Do not cling to them as well as to the word derived from the word "cross".
          Kursk region was in the Pale of Settlement?
  • Uncle VasyaSayapin
    Uncle VasyaSayapin 15 December 2015 16: 46 New
    0
    Population growth is explained by prosperity, and the success of zemstvo medicine and with the unresolved land issue could not but lead to a social explosion. Population growth led to hunger and poverty. The surplus of hands interfered with mechanization and other phenomena of progress. Taxes are less - so why pay them? The "confusion of Western politicians" was needed to justify the West's aggression against Russia.
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 15 December 2015 16: 51 New
      +1
      It was just necessary to push the traditional European societies with their foreheads in order to diminish them, especially Russian
  • alicante11
    alicante11 15 December 2015 13: 27 New
    +1
    the battle of Gumbinnen, the German units during the attack were ahead of themselves captured Russian.


    Hmm, where did they get them prisoners? Before Gumbinen, we had only relatively successful clashes with our overwhelming advantage.

    In the battle of Gumbinnen, the German horse artillery division went to an open position to destroy Russian artillery batteries in a closed position.


    Sorry, dear, but you need to be critical of the sources. Well, NO, you destroy the battery in a closed position with an open. This is not even in the REV ours did not try to do. Perhaps the episode did take place, but for another reason, say, ours discovered the movement of the German division when changing positions and covered it on the march.
    1. Inok10
      Inok10 15 December 2015 13: 56 New
      +3
      Quote: alicante11
      Hmm, where did they get them prisoners? Before Gumbinen, we had only relatively successful clashes with our overwhelming advantage.

      Quote: alicante11
      Sorry, dear, but you need to be critical of the sources. Well, NO, you destroy the battery in a closed position with an open. This is not even in the REV ours did not try to do. Perhaps the episode did take place, but for another reason, say, ours discovered the movement of the German division when changing positions and covered it on the march.

      .. I recommend reading Aunt Wick at least for a start ..
      By noon, the 3rd Corps was engaged in a battle with units of the 1st German Army Corps, which was fixed on the fortified Malissen-Dopenen strip, and after several hours of battle, with the assistance of the 29th Infantry Division of the 20th Corps, forced the Germans to retreat. Prisoners were taken and 8 guns captured. At this moment, the enemy seized the gap between the left flank of the 3rd corps and the right flank of the 4th corps, and energetically threw an attack group of 4 artillery battalions into this gap. The German battalions masterfully performed the enveloping maneuver, and, turning around, delivered a fire, and then a bayonet strike to the flank and rear of the left-flank regiment of the 3rd corps. It was the 105th Orenburg Regiment of the 27th Infantry Division. The regiment was defeated and retreated in disarray, having lost the commander Colonel Komarov and over 3000 personnel. The battle in the offensive zone of the 3rd Corps lasted until the evening. General Francois, having received the order of the 8th Army headquarters to retreat even in the afternoon, fought the whole day, introducing almost the entire corps into the battle. By the end of the day, François, having achieved success on the right flank and having failed on the left, gives the order to retreat. As Radus Zenkovich rightly observes, “the battle of August 4/17 was largely unexpected, both in relation to the enemy, and partly in relation to their neighboring columns, with which interaction and communication were not properly established.” Upon learning that Francois had already entered the battle, Pritvits ordered him to withdraw immediately, but Francois ignored all the orders of the command. He reported on the victory to the headquarters of the 8th Army, however, recollecting himself from the blow, the Russian troops soon launched a counterattack, and the Russian 25th Infantry Division, which arrived in time to help, hit the Germans on the flank. A fierce battle ensued, the Russian troops recaptured part of their prisoners, whom Francois captured during the attack on the 27th division, and also captured the prisoners, quartermaster reserves and 7 guns. The German corps retreated. Losses in this battle amounted to 6700 people from the Russian side and 1500 people, as well as 7 guns and 12 charging boxes from the German side. Shortly after this tactical success, the German command decided to give battle to the 1st Russian army as soon as possible, defeat it and switch to the 2nd. [2]
      .. источник:https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D0%BF%D1%
      80%D0%B8_%D0%93%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5
  • AX
    AX 15 December 2015 15: 33 New
    0
    With all due respect, but here there is a bit of "tragedy" ... European ... About Russian soldiers, this was not written ... Alas, and ah ... Take it as it is ...
  • sergeybulkin
    sergeybulkin 15 December 2015 12: 51 New
    +4
    I quote from the last paragraph .. think about it ..
    And in World War I backward Russia suffered

    But don’t have to kick it like that! Russia is indeed a Very Backward country and Very POOR, the wealth and development of the state is not determined at all by the state’s ability to throw tons of useless scrap metal into space and not by ultramodern tanks and aircraft, but this is determined by the level of well-being of the entire population. And the welfare of our poor (literally) the population on the list is somewhere in the 60th place, between Vietnam and Sri Lanka. And who does not agree with this - look into your wallet and see ... tongue
    1. Inok10
      Inok10 15 December 2015 13: 09 New
      +3
      .. the numbers in the studio .. just not from the tape.ru or yellow resources .. Aunt Vika answers you ..https: //ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title =% D0% A1% D0% BF% D0% B8% D1% 81% D0% BE% D0% B
      A_%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%92%D0%92%D0%9F_(%D0%9F%D0%9F%D
      0% A1) & stable = 1
      1. Inok10
        Inok10 15 December 2015 13: 12 New
        +3
        .. and another eloquent fact .. about the current poverty .. a simple Kaliningrad courtyard .. 12.00 .. the very height of the working day of Tuesday .. he dropped by to have lunch .. you can imagine how it is here tonight .. Great Russia, and there’s nowhere to park .. hi
        1. Rokossovsky
          Rokossovsky 15 December 2015 15: 46 New
          +3
          simple Kaliningrad yard

          Well in your simple Kaliningrad courtyard such pits ?! Does all the asphalt on the Primorsky ring go? Alexei, why aren’t you shaking the officials?
          PS If it’s not a secret, what is this district?
          hi
          1. Down House
            Down House 15 December 2015 16: 24 New
            0
            Quote: Rokossovsky
            Well in your simple Kaliningrad courtyard such pits ?!

            Yes, what problems is that, buy an apartment in a new building, you can immediately with a parking place - otherwise you did not pay for the parking, but for some reason you require it hi
            1. Rokossovsky
              Rokossovsky 15 December 2015 17: 13 New
              0

              Yes, what problems is that, buy an apartment in a new building, you can immediately with a parking place - otherwise you did not pay for the parking, but for some reason you require it

              Are you definitely not confusing me with anyone? I have a kakbe garage! And to Kaliningrad I have a very indirect relationship - I go to friends! Beautiful city! I recommend! hi
              1. Down House
                Down House 15 December 2015 17: 37 New
                +2
                Quote: Rokossovsky
                Are you definitely not confusing me with anyone? I have a kakbe garage!

                We just have a "problem" with parking lots, people buy cars en masse, and then complain that they have nowhere to put these same cars.
                In the "kenik" I was.
          2. Inok10
            Inok10 15 December 2015 21: 22 New
            +4
            Quote: Rokossovsky
            Well in your simple Kaliningrad courtyard such pits ?! Does all the asphalt on the Primorsky ring go? Alexei, why aren’t you shaking the officials?
            PS If it’s not a secret, what is this district?

            .. district st. Dadaev .. almost the center, 15 min. Victory .. this is not a complete improvement since 1994 .. it is a separate issue and a long one .. laughing
      2. sergeybulkin
        sergeybulkin 15 December 2015 13: 15 New
        +2
        figures in the studio .. only not from tape.ru or yellow resources

        This nonsense is your complete GDP of GNP, it does not reflect the income of the population and certainly the IMF will not bother with this. negative
        And the fact that cars are bought on credit and even B \ U is nothing, but the fact that 50% of those who took a loan can not repay it, how is it?
        1. Down House
          Down House 15 December 2015 16: 25 New
          0
          Quote: sergeybulkin
          This nonsense is your complete GDP of GNP, it does not reflect the income of the population

          It reflects the "level of the economy" and the "income of the population" is, forgive me, nonsense, there is the average income of certain segments of the population - so let's discuss them.
        2. tropic
          tropic 15 December 2015 16: 43 New
          0
          Quote: sergeybulkin
          this is your GNP GDP, it does not reflect the income of the population

          Of course, does not reflect. Because there are still expenses. Current. And there are accumulated (made earlier) expenses (which are in debt). Those. debts that also need to be serviced.
          But in terms of GDP per person, one can already begin to make some first assumptions.
          1. Inok10
            Inok10 15 December 2015 21: 28 New
            +3
            Quote: tropic
            Of course, does not reflect. Because there are still expenses. Current. And there are accumulated (made earlier) expenses (which are in debt). Those. debts that also need to be serviced.
            But in terms of GDP per person, one can already begin to make some first assumptions.

            .. the most important thing .. so that the population does not just want to get income, but have a desire to work .. at 20.30 hours only from work .. I don’t work for my "uncle" .. my own boss .. but I also don’t shy away from editing work and if necessary, I climb into the trench to pull 4x240 .. hi
        3. mav1971
          mav1971 15 December 2015 20: 06 New
          +1
          Quote: sergeybulkin
          figures in the studio .. only not from tape.ru or yellow resources

          This nonsense is your complete GDP of GNP, it does not reflect the income of the population and certainly the IMF will not bother with this. negative
          And the fact that cars are bought on credit and even B \ U is nothing, but the fact that 50% of those who took a loan can not repay it, how is it?


          Well, do not invent already ...

          apartments in new buildings in Samara are almost all sold out. both "budget" for 35 sput per square in "Ipen", and not budget for 60 sput and 90 sput. And the more expensive. the faster they sell out.
          Cars really nowhere to park.
          goes to the house in 17.00 - you have a chance to park a car in the area of ​​50 meters from the entrance.
          If in 20.00 then they are looking for a place for the 1 quarter already. I saw - and threw it there.
          most cars are also new. Let and on credit - but pay the same. Your strength is counting.

          Of course!
          I do not fully understand the situation.
          especially the last 2 years.
          the labor market has collapsed. salaries for vacancies fell even in rubles by almost 2 times.
          But they live! :)
          Buy and buy.
          And what is the massive increase on the roads of premium cars over the past year?
          From Mercia, BMW, Audi, Finikov - have to dodge already ...
          Really.
          A year ago, Porsche - were single. Now just crowds. :).
          Sucks the country lives.
          1. tropic
            tropic 15 December 2015 20: 16 New
            +1
            Quote: mav1971
            And what is the massive increase on the roads of premium cars over the past year?
            From Mercia, BMW, Audi, Finikov - have to dodge already ...
            Really.
            A year ago, Porsche - were single. Now just crowds. :).

            He lives well in your country. It is a pity, in Russia, car manufacturers are talking about something else. Moreover, somehow completely different.
          2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Diana Ilyina
        Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 13: 38 New
        +7
        Inok10
        .. the numbers in the studio .. just not from tape.ru or yellow resources .. you are answered by aunt ..


        Wikipedia, this is certainly a "weighty" and "serious" "argument"! And actually what did you want to say with these numbers ?! Do you even know that the US GDP is drawn on paper and has nothing to do with reality ?! The real debt of the United States is several times greater than its real (and not drawn) GDP, and in order to repay this debt, America has to work like "Papa Carlo" for 72 hours a week for fifty years!
        1. Inok10
          Inok10 15 December 2015 14: 00 New
          +3
          Quote: Diana Ilyina
          Wikipedia, this is certainly a "weighty" and "serious" "argument"! And actually what did you want to say with these numbers ?! Do you even know that the US GDP is drawn on paper and has nothing to do with reality ?! The real debt of the United States is several times greater than its real (and not drawn) GDP, and in order to repay this debt, America has to work like "Papa Carlo" for 72 hours a week for fifty years!

          .. what does it have to do with that ?! .. Dear talk about Russia at the beginning of the twentieth century !!! .. it's not a vinaigrette .. laughing
        2. Down House
          Down House 15 December 2015 16: 26 New
          +1
          Quote: Diana Ilyina
          Wikipedia, this is certainly a "weighty" and "serious" "argument"!

          At the same time, the bulk of the population and this "serious argument" can not master.
      4. tropic
        tropic 15 December 2015 16: 33 New
        +2
        Quote: Inok10
        You answer aunt

        1. Actually, Aunt Vika according to the IMF for 2014. takes Russia away 2,4% from the world level of GDP. In 2013 It was 2,7%. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D1%81%D1%82%
        D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D0%92%D0%92%D0%9F_%28%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0
        % BD% D0% B0% D0% BB% 29
        2. You give figures for the so-called. PPP GDP. This is a famous razvodilovo for suckers. You would have given figures for the "Big Mac index". That would make me laugh.
        3. It is more appropriate to look at GDP per person. Here a little worse than in Poland, Hungary and Croatia. But better than in Argentina, Panama and Brazil. 56th place in the world out of 187. Approximately 1058 $ per month. Not much.
        4. And finally, it is more appropriate to look at assets along with accumulated debts. Which, as you know, must be given. Here the blockage is complete. It makes no sense to even mention.
        1. Inok10
          Inok10 15 December 2015 21: 43 New
          +3
          Quote: tropic
          1. Actually, Aunt Vika according to the IMF for 2014. gives Russia 2,4% of the global GDP. In 2013 was 2,7%.

          .. actually..you need to know something else .. from the same auntViki ..
          Lists of countries of the world arranged in accordance with the value of gross domestic product (GDP), that is, the value of all final goods and services sold in the national economy in one year. The dollar estimates of GDP given here were obtained using purchasing power parity (PPP) conversion.

          When analyzing these tables, it should be noted that countries have been using different systems of national accounts since 2015. So the USA, Canada and 28 EU countries presented their data for 2014 in accordance with the new SNA-2008, other countries, like Russia, are still in accordance with the 1993 SNA and this is not fully: without taking into account the conditional housing rent and the assessment of natural resources. The main difference between the 2008 SNA is that it additionally takes into account intellectual property, derivative financial instruments, R&D and weapons costs. Thus, the addition of new accounting articles leads to a significant increase in macroeconomic indicators (including GDP), especially for countries with highly developed technologies. This may justify an additional issue of cash [2].
          . hi
          1. tropic
            tropic 15 December 2015 21: 58 New
            0
            Quote: Inok10
            The dollar estimates of GDP given here were obtained using purchasing power parity (PPP) conversion.
            When analyzing these tables, it should be noted that countries have been using different systems of national accounts since 2015. So the USA, Canada and 28 EU countries presented their data for 2014 in accordance with the new SNA-2008, other countries, like Russia, are still in accordance with the 1993 SNA and this is not fully: without taking into account the conditional housing rent and the assessment of natural of resources

            I do not think it is correct to compare GDP at PPP. I believe that this is bred for the poor. So that they do not feel very upset that they are so poor.
            In addition, I cited data for 2013. Just in case.
            1. Inok10
              Inok10 15 December 2015 22: 10 New
              +3
              Quote: tropic
              I do not think it is correct to compare GDP at PPP.

              .. in fact, remember how it began, I was indignant at the "backward Russia" of the author of the article and objected reasonably SPECIFICALLY FOR 1914! .. and still keep the theme .. hi
      5. The comment was deleted.
  • alicante11
    alicante11 15 December 2015 13: 22 New
    +6
    .. highlighted, now it’s clear why so many words were written by the author? ..


    Yes, highlight at least something, Russia in the WWII was really a backward country, something in the Russian Federation from 98 to the beginning of 2000. That is, it seems that both the country and the VD and the economy are growing, but everyone owes a grave of life, the military industry is weak, it hardly pulls dreadnoughts with an awesome delay, the army can’t get shells and rifles. And, most importantly, no one considered Russia. It is necessary to beat the Balkans the Turks - they beat, we must take the Bulgarians to the nail, again, no one asks Russia. Straight tracing paper from the attempts of our oligarchs to blather in defense of Yugoslavia.


    highlighted, now it’s clear why so many words were written by the author?


    IMHO, the author does not swim so shallow. It is quite a sensible argument that the quality (and quantity) of equipment is not always decisive on the battlefield. Well, if, of course, not the Papuans with spears against stealth.
    1. tropic
      tropic 15 December 2015 16: 56 New
      -1
      Quote: alicante11
      hardly pulls dreadnought with awesome delay

      With difficulty pulls out incomprehensibly what, which then calls dreadnoughts (before that she called squadron battleships). The entire Baltic Fleet, the linear forces of which consisted of 8, as it were, EBRs, at the moment "grunted" in a collision with 3 normal and 1 old Japanese real EBRs. Moreover, for the Japanese without much harm.
      1. Condor-a
        Condor-a 15 December 2015 17: 26 New
        +1
        And how much did Russian shells invoke? bully
  • Diana Ilyina
    Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 13: 28 New
    +7
    Inok10, but you want to say that Russia was not a backward country by the beginning of the First World War ?! About one rifle with one clip of ammunition for three and about corpses we will throw, this is just about the imperialist war, and not about the Second World War!
    1. Inok10
      Inok10 15 December 2015 13: 50 New
      +4
      Quote: Diana Ilyina
      Inok10, but you want to say that Russia was not a backward country by the beginning of the First World War ?! About one rifle with one clip of ammunition for three and about corpses we will throw, this is just about the imperialist war, and not about the Second World War!

      .. the numbers of that time ..
      Still, by 1914, Romanov’s Russia had achieved a lot. It was the 4th economy of the world, with a population of about 170 million people, the same as in Germany, France, Britain, the Netherlands and Belgium combined. In terms of industrial production growth rates (on average 5% per year), Russia then overtook all the leading countries, with the exception of the United States. And in the oil industry, the country even became a world leader already at the end of the 36,9th century. In the first decade of the XNUMXth century, Russian wheat exports accounted for XNUMX% of total world exports.
      Russian capitalism developed rapidly. At the beginning of 1914, about 3 thousand joint-stock companies with a total capital of 4538 million rubles operated in Russia. For 4 years (1909-1913) the increase was 663 companies with a capital of 1718 million rubles, or 44% and 61%, respectively. (according to S. N. Kuleshov) At that time not a single country in the world knew such rates of joint-stock company.
      .. In 1914, the dollar was equal to 1,93 rubles... your dancing songs and fairy tales about bastard Russia are no longer relevant .. it's time to change the repertoire .. laughing
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 15 December 2015 14: 00 New
        0
        Quote: Inok10

        .. the numbers of that time ..
        And in the oil industry, the country even became a world leader already at the end of the XNUMXth century.
        .. In 1914, the dollar was equal to 1,93 rubles... your dancing songs and fairy tales about bastard Russia are no longer relevant .. it's time to change the repertoire .. laughing

        Ah ha ha ... but can you tell me why the situation in oil production is given precisely at the end of the XNUMXth century? wink
        The answer is simple: the maximum oil production in Russia fell in 1901 (706,3 million pounds), after which the crisis began. By 1913, oil production was reduced to 561,3 million pounds.
        At the same time, Russia's share in world oil production fell from 50,6% to 18,2%. And the leader was ... rightly so - the United States (63,3% in 1913), who held first place, EMNIP, until the 60s of the last century.

        Here is such an interesting statistic. The main thing is to choose the right industries in the right period. laughing
        1. Inok10
          Inok10 15 December 2015 14: 08 New
          +4
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Here is such an interesting statistic. The main thing is to choose the right industries in the right period.

          .. again, I earnestly ask you not to erase the words from the song .. well, if you really want to do this .. answer me .. where were the USA between 1929 and 1933 during the Great Depression? .. I can tell .. v_z_a_d_n_i_ts_e .. in the same place as England, France and Germany .. laughing
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 15 December 2015 14: 42 New
            0
            Quote: Inok10
            .. again, I earnestly ask you not to erase the words from the song .. well, if you really want to do this .. answer me .. where were the USA between 1929 and 1933 during the Great Depression?

            And I do not throw out the words. I just ask you not to juggle numbers, choosing for each industry those intervals and years when it was at its peak. And then the "leader of oil production" in fact, by the beginning of the war, reduced production by 20%. and its share in world production fell by 2,5 times.

            And what does the Great Depression have to do with the situation in the Russian Empire at the beginning of the century? The empire had already died by this time.
            And if she had not died, then she would have been covered too.
          2. tropic
            tropic 15 December 2015 17: 03 New
            0
            Quote: Inok10
            where were the USA between 1929 and 1933 during the Great Depression? .. I can tell .. v_z_a_d_n_i_ts_e .. in the same place as England, France and Germany.

            I would like to clarify, and who was then in the front? Since Britain and France during this period were "in the ass."
      2. Diana Ilyina
        Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 14: 06 New
        +7
        Quote: Inok10
        .. In 1914, the dollar was equal to 1,93 rubles... your dancing songs and fairy tales about bastard Russia are no longer relevant .. it's time to change the repertoire ..


        Well, if it's time for me to change my "repertoire", then it would not hurt you to change your brains! And at the same time learn history, just do not read rezun, solzhenitsin and other nonsense like Wikipedia, this has a bad effect on the fragile body of the pubertal period of development!
        1. Inok10
          Inok10 15 December 2015 14: 11 New
          +3
          Quote: Diana Ilyina
          Well, if it's time for me to change my "repertoire", then it would not hurt you to change your brains! And at the same time learn history, just do not read rezun, solzhenitsin and other nonsense like Wikipedia, this has a bad effect on the fragile body of the pubertal period of development!

          .. ah, did you notice the flag with me ?! ..in his righteous outburst of anger .. apparently there isn’t .. and I will not allow to stain the story! .. neither the Russian Empire, nor the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics! ..
          1. Diana Ilyina
            Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 14: 20 New
            +7
            Quote: Inok10
            .. ah, did you notice the flag with me ?! ..in his righteous outburst of anger .. apparently there isn’t .. and I will not allow to stain the story! .. neither the Russian Empire, nor the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics! ..


            I am deeply violet on what your flag is! What matters is what thoughts and ideas you promote! I understand your concern about not "dirtying" our history, but it is you who are dirtying it, with your illiteracy! Unlike you, I know history, my aunt is a history teacher and I was preparing to enter the history faculty!
            1. goblin xnumx
              goblin xnumx 15 December 2015 16: 54 New
              +2
              Aunt is a teacher of what story? —or rather, version? —Because history is like an ancient profession, they rewrite it, so the history teacher is not the most outstanding expert to read from the department what has been approved from above :), unlike mathematics and physics, agree
        2. Inok10
          Inok10 15 December 2015 14: 29 New
          +3
          Quote: Diana Ilyina
          it badly affects the fragile body of the puberty period of development!

          .. I take it as a compliment when I was born in 1970 .. I would have thrown off 20 years with pleasure .. laughed .. laughing
      3. Uncle VasyaSayapin
        Uncle VasyaSayapin 15 December 2015 16: 52 New
        +1
        And now they give 3 rubles per hryvnia. So Ukrainians are cooler than us?
        1. Condor-a
          Condor-a 15 December 2015 17: 24 New
          +1
          How much are they giving for the dollar and has it devalued?
    2. tropic
      tropic 15 December 2015 17: 00 New
      0
      Quote: Diana Ilyina
      About one rifle with one clip of ammunition for three and about corpses we will throw, this is just about the imperialist war, and not about the Second World War!

      Yes? Really?
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 15 December 2015 13: 47 New
    +2
    Quote: Inok10
    .. if so simple .. I quote from the last paragraph .. think about it ..
    And in World War I backward Russia suffered not from the lack of a certain “wunderwaffe,” but from a banal lack of shells for existing artillery systems. And from the lack of full-fledged heavy artillery, oddly enough. That's so simple, it went and to some extent corny.

    .. highlighted, now it’s clear why so many words were written by the author? .. hi

    That is, everything listed by the author in Russia in the WWI actually was? wink

    And do not remember the wonderful story with machine guns, when it suddenly became clear that in all of Russia the "Maxim" machine gun can be made by only one plant. This is not an aircraft engine, not a tank, not a car - this is a machine gun in service and produced since the beginning of the century! As a result, the Empire begged all over the world, buying all sorts of nasty things and placing orders on unfavorable terms. And the second machine-gun factory began to be built only at the height of the war - and the Bolsheviks had to finish building it.

    With cars, by the way, the same thing happened. Even worse - only Russo-Balt, who had government orders, survived before the war. Lessner turned off the production of vehicles and began to make torpedoes. Why? But because there is no demand. The people and even enterprises do not have money to buy a car in volumes that make their production profitable. And the state scored on vehicles, buying them peacetime. As a result, in 1916 it was necessary to give loans to car factories ... which were completed again. the Bolsheviks.

    And what happened to vehicles in other countries? There is a great example when 600 taxis were mobilized for emergency plugging of holes in a few hours. Moreover, this was done after the first mobilization of drivers into the army already passed before. smile
    1. Diana Ilyina
      Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 13: 56 New
      10
      Quote: Alexey RA

      That is, everything listed by the author in Russia in the WWI actually was?


      Bravo Alexey, great comment! And then they read liberal nonsense about how well Russia lived in 1913 and the soul rushed to Paradise! Instead of Nicholas II we would have had Catherine the Great and Potemkin, probably the history of Russia would have gone a different way, but history has no subjunctive moods, so we have what we have!
      1. Inok10
        Inok10 15 December 2015 14: 02 New
        +3
        Quote: Diana Ilyina
        Bravo Alexey, great comment! And then they read liberal nonsense about how well Russia lived in 1913 and the soul rushed to Paradise! Instead of Nicholas II we would have had Catherine the Great and Potemkin, probably the history of Russia would have gone a different way, but history has no subjunctive moods, so we have what we have!

        .. why do I give you the numbers .. and, in response, I hear demagoguery ?! .. the answer is probably obvious! ... laughing
        1. Diana Ilyina
          Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 14: 11 New
          +7
          Quote: Inok10

          .. why do I give you the numbers .. and, in response, I hear demagoguery ?! .. the answer is probably obvious! ... laughing


          I already wrote to you above, about your "numbers" from Wikipedia ...! Don't tell my pink slippers, Wikipedia is never an argument for me personally! But the lost Russian-Japanese war and the lost imperialist war - this is an ARGUMENT and it is difficult to argue with it!
          1. Inok10
            Inok10 15 December 2015 14: 37 New
            +3
            Quote: Diana Ilyina
            I already wrote to you above, about your "numbers" from Wikipedia ...! Don't tell my pink slippers, Wikipedia is never an argument for me personally! But the lost Russian-Japanese war and the lost imperialist war - this is an ARGUMENT and it is difficult to argue with it!

            .. so you signed up for your own illiteracy, once in your comment I missed it, but twice already too much .. ent, when was it, dear, that it was a war like Imperialism? .. maybe even this is World War I? .. don’t you find ?! ..
            In Soviet textbooks, the concept of "World War I", traditional for world historiography, was often replaced by "imperialist war." What exactly was meant by such a definition? This can be understood by understanding the specifics of the interpretation of history from the point of view of Marxism.
            More details: http://www.kakprosto.ru/kak-84768-chto-takoe-imperialisticheskaya-voyna#ixzz3uO7
            o7fBI
            hi
            .. and about the bast Russia built the Trans-Siberian ..
            Historically, the Trans-Siberian Railway is only the eastern part of the highway, from Miass (South Urals, Chelyabinsk Region) to Vladivostok. Its length is about 7 thousand km. This site was built from 1891 to 1916.
            .. not impressive? .. hi
            1. Diana Ilyina
              Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 14: 55 New
              +7
              Quote: Inok10

              .. so you signed up for your own illiteracy, once in your comment I missed it, but twice already too much .. ent, when was it, dear, that it was a war like Imperialism? .. maybe even this is World War I? .. don’t you find ?! ..


              Oh, my God, I was convicted of illiteracy, I was foolish in my stupidity to have called my woman an indiscretion to call the First World War, but imperialistic ...! fool

              And what was she like ?! She was imperialist, not by name, but in fact! The war was fought between the leading empires for the redistribution of spheres of influence, or, more simply, for new colonies! And after this war, the four empires ceased to exist, you are our womnik, whistleblower and convict!

              Regarding the Trans-Siberian Railway, this is of course an achievement, for some sort of France or Germany, and for the Russian Empire, it is simply a necessity! Only BAM and Dneproges with Belomorkanal will be abruptly!
              1. tropic
                tropic 15 December 2015 17: 20 New
                0
                Quote: Diana Ilyina
                The war was fought between the leading empires for the redistribution of spheres of influence, or, more simply, for new colonies!

                So, on this basis, the Second World War is imperialistic. And 2MB. And in general, all the wars on earth.
                Quote: Diana Ilyina
                Only here is BAM

                But the BAM of the USSR for many years did not really finish building.
              2. The comment was deleted.
          2. Condor-a
            Condor-a 15 December 2015 15: 01 New
            0
            Is restructuring lost without war not an argument? Everything that Wikipedia writes suddenly became untrue?
            Not interested in any living standards of the English and German peoples? The Germans went to emigrate to Russia and not vice versa.
            In 1905 they staged a revolution, as in 1917.
            1. Diana Ilyina
              Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 15: 21 New
              +7
              Quote: Condor-A
              The Germans went to emigrate to Russia and not vice versa.


              "Yes, you sho ?!" fool

              What kind of Germans emigrated to Russia ?! How many?! Yes, there really were Germans who entered the Russian service as military officers, as it has been since the pre-Petrine times! And among them were different, there were worthy people, and there were frank traitors, such as General Fock, heard of this ?!

              Perestroika was begun not by the Bolsheviks, but by the chairman of the Supreme Council Gorbachev, who is now hiding in Germany!

              I’m not saying that EVERYTHING written on Wikipedia is not true, I’m saying that Wikipedia is a US resource and is written there in a way that is beneficial to the USA! The Internet is also a weapon with the help of which again the USA is fighting with all countries that it doesn’t like, and first of all with Russia!
              1. Condor-a
                Condor-a 15 December 2015 16: 49 New
                0
                And you googled ... We even went to Paraguay from our "happy" Germany where children suffered from rickets.
                Look at the degenerate England for more pictures, about Greater London, female and child labor in coal mines. repeat
              2. tropic
                tropic 15 December 2015 17: 23 New
                +1
                Quote: Diana Ilyina
                Perestroika was begun not by the Bolsheviks, but by the chairman of the Supreme Council Gorbachev

                He was also part-time Secretary General of the CPSU. Those. the main communist of the USSR.
              3. The comment was deleted.
          3. tropic
            tropic 15 December 2015 17: 17 New
            +1
            Quote: Diana Ilyina
            But the lost Russian-Japanese war and the lost imperialist war - this is the ARGUMENT and it is difficult to argue with it!

            Ah ah ah! And this is written by a man whose aunt teaches history. The imperialist war was lost by the Bolsheviks. Or do you recall who and why made the Brest Peace?
      2. tropic
        tropic 15 December 2015 17: 13 New
        -1
        Quote: Diana Ilyina
        Instead of Nicholas II we would have had Catherine the Great and Potemkin, probably the history of Russia would go on a different vector

        For some reason, scoops somehow especially strongly love those who destroy them most actively. And Catherine is great. And Peter. And even another chipped Georgians.
        Why didn’t you like Nikolai? Voluntarily abdicated, did not start the Civil War. Like the same Bolsheviks. Perhaps he even realized that feudalism in the form of tsarism is a yoke on the neck of Russia, who knows?
        1. Condor-a
          Condor-a 15 December 2015 17: 40 New
          0
          Everything is so, only
          Quote: tropic
          chipped georgians.

          destroyed the enemies of the people .. destroying it before that.
          1. tropic
            tropic 15 December 2015 17: 51 New
            -1
            Quote: Condor-A
            destroyed the enemies of the people .. destroying it before

            No one would mind it. If that were true. Unfortunately, this is a fairy tale. About the alleged justice of this ghoul. Everything they did to strengthen their own power. And who was there and whom he was destroying, he was not interested.
            PS. Among the repressed "destroyers" there were miserable percentages.
            1. Condor-a
              Condor-a 15 December 2015 17: 54 New
              -1
              Well, since you mind, and you have everything upside down, it means from these very enemies.
              These were the percentages in relation to what the Trotskyists managed to do.
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Diana Ilyina
          Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 19: 04 New
          +7
          tropic, yes you’re a good Ukrainian, my friend, how can I beat ?! Well, or a liberalist, judging by your rating!

          Nikolai, like a tagged profuca country, why should I like such sex rags that ruin the country ?!

          Look at UKRuina, Georgia, the Baltic states, I don’t need such "happiness" for nothing!

          Why did you bargain for the USSR flag, you are clearly not worthy of it, you are not a scoop ?! Scoop and quilted jacket, this is me and I like and this is the flag of a great country in which I was lucky to be born!

          Where did the adequate scoops go ?! Why alone I fend off don't understand anyone, I want to mumble, but the rules of the forum and education do not allow!
          1. tropic
            tropic 15 December 2015 19: 18 New
            0
            Quote: Diana Ilyina
            Yes, my friend, you are a good Ukrainian, how can I beat ?!

            You swing less. And look more.
            Quote: Diana Ilyina
            why should I like these rags that ruin the country ?!

            And what do you have from a country that was falling apart? Or do you want to tell me that a healthy body can die from the fact that someone out there does something wrong or says it? What would be your benefit in preserving such a ruin?
            Quote: Diana Ilyina
            Look at UKRuina, Georgia, the Baltic states, I don’t need such "happiness" for nothing!

            And that the Russian Federation is not included in the list? Also tea is not the USSR.
            Look. And I look very carefully. Well, people live, do not complain. You would still be so.
            Quote: Diana Ilyina
            great country

            A great country is a country where a happy population lives. The happier the population, the more great the country. If in the country the population is forced to converge with each other in shops every day "in the battle for sausage", then this is not a happy country. This is generally a country. This is an unfortunate misunderstanding.
            This I have not yet remembered hunger. With a "happy population" swelling with hunger and sometimes sinking to cannibalism.
            Quote: Diana Ilyina
            Where did the adequate scoops go ?!

            Gradually die out. For different reasons. Someone physiological. And someone who is smarter, is seeing. It is never too late to see. Unfortunately, not everyone succeeds. Not everyone is given.
            1. Inok10
              Inok10 15 December 2015 22: 06 New
              +3
              Quote: tropic
              Gradually die out. For different reasons. Someone physiological. And someone who is smarter, is seeing. It is never too late to see. Unfortunately, not everyone succeeds. Not everyone is given.

              .. do not touch the "Sovkov", he himself, but, as well as "Colorado", "quilted jacket" and in full .. but EVERY ORDINARY SCOOP IS OBLIGED TO KNOW YOUR HISTORY !!! .. and it began not in 1917 .. RESPECT YOURSELF! .. soldier
              1. tropic
                tropic 15 December 2015 22: 41 New
                +1
                Quote: Inok10
                but EACH ORDEROUS SCOOL HAS TO KNOW YOUR HISTORY !!! ..and it didn’t start in 1917

                It is even more important to know the story from February 1917 to December 1991. Not the beautiful picture that Agitprop painted, but the real story.
                Where are the Bolsheviks in January 1918. carried out a coup and seized power in the country by armed means.
                Where this coup d'etat led to the collapse of Russia into national states (see today's map of Europe, these are all the consequences of the collapse of 1918).
                Where this coup d'etat led to the fratricidal and bloody Civil War. Which in more or less latent form in the USSR lasted until the very last day.
                And there are many, many more where. Which are hidden and disguised in the official history of this period.
                1. Inok10
                  Inok10 15 December 2015 23: 45 New
                  +3
                  Quote: tropic
                  It is even more important to know the story from February 1917 to December 1991.

                  .. taking into account the fact that in less than 100 years Russia has survived two shifts of the Socio-economic system, the Civil War, Intervention and won two World Wars .. and is still alive and well .. Strengthens and the weighty Word says, Affirming by deeds! .. soldier
                2. tropic
                  tropic 16 December 2015 00: 45 New
                  0
                  Quote: Inok10
                  given that in less than 100 years, Russia has experienced two shifts in the socio-economic system

                  I want to upset you, but over the past 500 years, at least the socio-economic system has not changed at all. As it was in 1915. feudal society remained. Only slightly degraded.
                  If in 1917 this community was ready for bourgeois development, now it (the society) is not shining. Because pseudo-religious feudalism (better known as socialism) threw it (society) far back. And now, in the development of social relations, this society is far from at the last stage of feudalism, as in February 1917. Those. grow him and grow.
                  Quote: Inok10
                  and won two world wars

                  Strongly said. Too bad this is not true.
          2. asiat_61
            asiat_61 16 December 2015 00: 33 New
            0
            Only Russia was starving and dying, well, in the sense of the USSR. But our Western partners helped us in this, plus a crop failure happened. The West, and especially the Svetoch of democracy, also did not skid in oil.
            1. tropic
              tropic 16 December 2015 00: 50 New
              +1
              Quote: asiat_61
              But our partners helped us in this, plus a crop failure happened.

              Of course, the enemies are to blame. And nature. And cosmic rays. And the change of seasons. And the vile moon along with Mars.
              It’s not all the Bolsheviks who are always doing the right thing. That is amazing. Whatever happens, the Bolsheviks are never to blame for anything. Just like saints. Only without wings. But with Mausers and Nagans.
      3. asiat_61
        asiat_61 16 December 2015 00: 26 New
        -1
        Anyone can chop wood and clean the snow on the tracks. A good person, this is not a profession. Nicky is certainly to blame, he took the oath. But the whole Romanov camorilla did not support him in difficult times.
        1. Condor-a
          Condor-a 16 December 2015 01: 46 New
          +1
          Did he really do this? And what was the English or Japanese emperor doing at that time? And also German and Austro-Hungarian?
  • Condor-a
    Condor-a 15 December 2015 14: 39 New
    0
    So you love the Bolsheviks, among whom there was not a single Russian person, and who made their revolution in the rear while all the Russian men were in the war?
    They did not do factories later, but bought ready for gold, so that there was something to suppress peasant uprisings.
    XO was not enough in WWI; France, inferior to Germany, released it, and that is 100 times more than Russia.
    1. Diana Ilyina
      Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 15: 04 New
      +7
      Quote: Condor-A
      So you love the Bolsheviks, among whom there was not a single Russian person, and who made their revolution in the rear while all the Russian men were in the war?
      They did not do factories later, but bought ready for gold, so that there was something to suppress peasant uprisings.
      XO was not enough in WWI; France, inferior to Germany, released it, and that is 100 times more than Russia.


      Well, the fact that there were practically no Russians at the top of the Bolsheviks is a well-known fact! And everything else written by you, forgive complete nonsense! I was especially touched by your, if I may say so, "statement": bought for gold ready, so that there was something to suppress peasant uprisings! This I will tell you is simply a masterpiece of modern liberal thought! You would have to treat my friend, and urgently!
      1. Condor-a
        Condor-a 15 December 2015 15: 15 New
        0
        And that they were not suppressed like the same Tambov?
        Well google that where and how much bought
        Everything else is what is written by your friend below.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 15 December 2015 15: 08 New
      +2
      Quote: Condor-A
      So you love the Bolsheviks, among whom there was not a single Russian person, and who made their revolution in the rear while all the Russian men were in the war?

      Oh how! Really Guchkov, Rodzianko, Milyukov, Alekseev, Lvov, Kerensky were Bolsheviks? Didn't know, didn't know ...
      How firmly settled in the minds of fans of "crunch" communist propaganda on the role of the Bolsheviks in the February Revolution... and how often they distribute it. laughing

      And in fact the Empire was not killed by the Bolsheviks. The empire was killed by Russian oligarchs, generals, Duma leaders and even members of the Family (V.K. Kirill is an example of this). And it was they who destroyed the army - there were only 1 Bolsheviks in the Executive Committee of the Perosovet during the creation of "Order No. 2", and they played side roles. And the Provisional Government, which approved this Order, did not have them at all.
      Quote: Condor-A
      They did not do factories later, but bought ready for gold, so that there was something to suppress peasant uprisings.

      Peasant uprisings in the mid-late 20s, crushed by trucks and wheeled agricultural tractors? Hm ...
      AMO, Kovrov and Vikkers-Tsaritsynsky ("Barricades") were completed by the Bolsheviks. Because, for example, most of the machine tools received for Vickers were shoved into other factories by the ingenious tsarist managers - as a result, it suddenly turned out that the factory could not produce tools.

      And under the tsar-father, factories were bought like that. Kovrov is Madsen. "Barricades" are "Vickers"
      1. Condor-a
        Condor-a 15 December 2015 15: 20 New
        -4
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Russian oligarchs

        it
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Guchkov, Rodzianko, Milyukov, Alekseev, Lviv, Kerensky

        sometimes it’s better to chew than talk ... bully

        "Suddenly" GAZ is Ford, Fili is Junkers ... then - everywhere.
        And under the Tsar they built more themselves, especially Savva Morozovs and in the Urals, and even behind it.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 15 December 2015 16: 19 New
          +2
          Quote: Condor-A
          sometimes it’s better to chew than talk ...

          Don't like Guchkov? Take Savva Morozov and his nephew - Nikolai Schmidt.
          Quote: Condor-A
          "Suddenly" GAZ is Ford, Fili is Junkers ... then - everywhere.

          And what does GAS have to do with it. I spoke about the AMO plant, which became the automotive industry under the Bolsheviks. And before that, he was an auto assembly, engaged in screwdriver assembly of fiats from machine kits.
          Quote: Condor-A
          And under the Tsar they built more themselves, especially Savva Morozovs and in the Urals, and even behind it.

          Yeah ... they built.
          Without access lines, the Izhevsk Plant (the largest enterprise in the empire) used river routes during the navigation period. The access road to the Golyany pier on Kama - a 40-kilometer highway - in the summer during the rainy, autumn and spring became impassable. Traveling even in a light carriage to this distance could take 18 hours, and the transportation of goods stopped.

          The Sestroretsk plant, like 20 (two hundred?) Years ago, was powered by water wheels. In the summer of 1915, the lack of water in the lake did not allow all the workshops to work at the same time, and only then did things "come to the replacement of water turbines, oil engines were installed."
          1. Condor-a
            Condor-a 15 December 2015 17: 08 New
            -1
            What is Schmidt’s surname, unlike his uncle Morozov, non-Russian ...

            do not twist like in a pan bully

            What the hell is that? All England in the canals, half of Germany and the Great Lakes region.
            And the water wheels must be sure to twist the generator, immediately it is impossible directly? There were still steam engines, and the railways were a hundred and fifty years old before the Bolsheviks.

            Well, what about GAZ and Fili? bully
            The AMO plant was not founded under the Bolsheviks, it was renamed under the Bolsheviks, and engage in screwdriver assembly of fiats lol
            Before it was laid it was still from the automobile "Russo-Balt".
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 15 December 2015 18: 08 New
              +1
              Quote: Condor-A
              What the hell is that? All England in the canals, half of Germany and the Great Lakes region.
              And the water wheels must be sure to turn the generator, right away you can’t directly?

              That is, do you offer direct mechanical transmission to the machines from the water wheel? Bravo! Chains, belts, gears, rollers ... vibrations and slippage (goodbye, accuracy) ... and epic friction losses + increased injuries from the abundance of rotating parts in the workshop.
              And most importantly - it’s written to you in black and gray on what happened in 1915 in Sestroretsk: there wasn’t enough water. Suddenly. And no one even thought about such an opportunity.
              Quote: Condor-A
              There were still steam engines, and the railways were a hundred and fifty years old before the Bolsheviks.

              The presence of a railway "on average in the Empire" to the largest plant of this Empire, which does not have all-weather supply routes, is neither cold nor hot.
              Quote: Condor-A
              The AMO plant was not founded under the Bolsheviks, it was renamed under the Bolsheviks, and engage in screwdriver assembly of fiats

              What am I writing about? AMO - this is just one of the factories of the Empire. But instead of building a car, he was engaged only in assembly - he began to make a car only with the Bolsheviks.
              Quote: Condor-A
              Well, what about GAZ and Fili?

              Which were built from start to finish. And not torn apart like "Vickers-Tsaritsinsky". And they didn't do screwdriver assembly like AMO.

              By the way, the Bolsheviks took into account the experience of the WWII - and were able to arrange the production of machine guns in factories that had not previously produced them.
              1. Condor-a
                Condor-a 15 December 2015 18: 37 New
                0
                Is it Sestroretsk in the Urals?
                Quote: Alexey RA
                librations and slippage (goodbye, accuracy).

                fool did you see the machine at least once?
                moving parts are protected by covers.

                Almost all of Siberia does not have such, then what? There the warehouses are therefore neither cold nor hot ...

                But AMO was not laid under the Bolsheviks, but under the Bolsheviks he began to engage in screwdriver assembly.
                Not built and brought to their USA and Germany.
                What did your Bolsheviks take into account? The fact that in WWII, as in WWI, mortars killed far more machine guns, and in the Red Army, unlike the Wehrmacht, there were no APCs with anti-fragmentation armor?
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 16 December 2015 10: 47 New
                +1
                Quote: Condor-A
                did you see the machine at least once?
                moving parts are protected by covers.

                And let us not, speaking of the machines of the beginning of the last century, cite the technique of the present century as an example. It's like judging the cars of that time, taking Ural or Unimog as an example.
                Here is a photo of an authentic workshop of that time with mechanical transmission to machines:

                Quote: Condor-A
                Almost all of Siberia does not have such, then what? There the warehouses are therefore neither cold nor hot ...

                What warehouses are you talking about? Largest factory The empire did not have a railway:
                The access road to the Golyany pier on Kama - a 40-kilometer highway - in the summer during the rainy, autumn and spring became impassable. Traveling even in a light carriage to this distance could take 18 hours, and the transportation of goods stopped.

                Quote: Condor-A
                But AMO was not laid under the Bolsheviks, but under the Bolsheviks he began to engage in screwdriver assembly.

                * facepalm * AMO is a plant of the Moscow Automobile Society of Ryabushinsky. It was laid still under the king.
                What did your Bolsheviks take into account? The fact that in WWII, as in WWI, mortars killed far more machine guns, and in the Red Army, unlike the Wehrmacht, there were no APCs with anti-fragmentation armor?

                Well, the Germans didn’t have armored personnel carriers in all panzerdivisies at the beginning of the Second World War, and only in one battalion. What did not stop them from reaching Moscow.
              3. Condor-a
                Condor-a 16 December 2015 13: 46 New
                0
                What does not suit you in this photo? Why are there no workers?

                Don't know what warehouses are? Is it known as a "backward" Russia to solve the problem of the lack of railways in Turkey during the war of 1877-78?

                Quote: Alexey RA
                * facepalm *

                and under the Bolsheviks he was engaged in screwdriver assembly of fiats and he was even named temporarily in honor of someone, but for some reason not Ryabushinsky ... some sort of Italian

                Quote: Alexey RA
                Well, the Germans didn’t have armored personnel carriers in all panzerdivisies at the beginning of the Second World War, and only in one battalion. What did not stop them from reaching Moscow.

                What kind of systemic nonsense again on Russian brains?
                well so - in the Red Army there was no armored personnel carrier am the Germans were fine with them.
                A typical battle near Moscow in early December at the peak of the German offensive - destroyed 12 German tanks, 25 armored personnel carriers.
  • tokens2
    tokens2 15 December 2015 19: 12 New
    0
    Alexey RA
    But in fact, the Empire was not killed by the Bolsheviks. The empire was killed by Russian oligarchs, generals, Duma leaders and even members of the Surname (V.K. Kirill to this example). And they destroyed the army

    Alex.
    Well, nevertheless, they didn’t fall apart. And let's say ... prepared
    the ground for a "sudden" change of formation amid the approving roar of the crowd, which was fed up with slovenliness and "failures" at the fronts. However, even with such defeatist "adjustments", the war was still fought for victory.
    Yes, everyone understood that Germany could not be defeated! But a strong monarchist Russia was also useless to many.
    So who is more brilliant? laughing
    Whoever sabotaged their factories in WWI? -Do not allow the enemy to Moscow?
    Or the one who scored all the warehouses with armaments near the border in 1941. Substituting aviation for the first blow. And still not having previously mobilized by June 22, 1941 ???
    The empire was still destroyed by the Bolsheviks.
    Only taking into account the Russian "slovenliness" could the Schlieffen plan come into being. Where the goal number 1 was not Russia at all.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 16 December 2015 11: 12 New
      0
      Quote: Lexi2
      Or the one who scored all the warehouses with armaments near the border in 1941. Substituting aviation for the first blow. And still not having previously mobilized by June 22, 1941 ???

      Have you decided to repeat all the myths of perestroika? smile
      For 10 years now, the network has documents on the deployment of warehouses, their capacity and time of construction. At the border were only consumables of 4 categories. Warehouses of the 1st and 2nd categories belonged to the eastern borders of the districts.
      The first line of warehouses located 50-75 km from the state border was advanced warehouses, usually small ones (4th category). On the second line, 300-400 km away from the state border, warehouses of the 3rd and partially 2nd categories were located, and on the third (rear) line were the most powerful warehouses (1st and 2nd categories). The total depth of the separation of the warehouses reached 500-600 km.
      Of the total number of district warehouses 10 were built in the pre-Soviet period, 20 were organized in 1941 in the territories of the Baltic Republics, Western Belarus and Ukraine on the basis of military warehouses already existing there, 13 were equipped in the open air, and the rest 68 warehouses created under Soviet rule mainly in 1930-1940

      That is, 78 out of 111 warehouses were located beyond the Stalin line.

      With the Air Force, the picture is about the same. At the front airfields there was only army aviation - regiments of mixed air divisions subordinate to the armies of the first echelon. And then there were 3-4 such airfields in the district.

      Preliminary mobilization ... it could be carried out only in the case of 100% confidence in the German attack. But the trouble is - neither intelligence could give this guarantee, nor the Foreign Ministry. And the Reich itself did not make any demands. But all the wars before this began with diplomatic foreplay, which lasted six months or a year.
      Plus, the situation in the economy of the USSR. Ours did not even dare to carry out the BUS, and for ordinary fees-41 they gave the reservation to half of the people's commissariats and tractor drivers for the period of agricultural work.
      1. tokens2
        tokens2 16 December 2015 11: 55 New
        0
        Alexey RA
        Have you decided to repeat all the myths of perestroika?

        I agree with you. I went a little overboard.
        Yes, warehouses were not organized conventionally at the "border pillar".
        However ... With such a pace of the Wehrmacht's offensive, Minsk became a "border" by June 28. But this is a large railway junction.
        Preliminary mobilization ... it could be carried out only in the case of 100% confidence in the German attack.

        So you yourself answered indirectly. The load on the railroads with the introduction of mobilization was enormous. The share of railway transport in freight turnover during the war years:
        in 1941 - 93%;
        in 1942 - 52%;
        in 1943 - 58%;
        in 1944 - 68%;
        in 1945 - 76%.
        In such a short time — to mobilize, to mothball the material part — was not possible. And still it was necessary to evacuate valuable equipment and workers of defense plants.
        So ... the belated mobilization "translated" a lot of warehouses into the expression "near the border". Which is essentially true.
        There was no 100% guarantee of an attack? Well ... Alexei, it’s not even worth discussing smile
        1. Condor-a
          Condor-a 16 December 2015 13: 59 New
          0
          And it is not clear what you are discussing there at all? sabotage, by those who later arranged the same one called Perestroika, "was a total
          The Stalin line was disarmed, its removed equipment and armament on the Molotov line have not yet been installed. The aviation was given the command to flock to the main airdromes, the anti-aircraft guns covering them were taken to the "exercises", the weapons were removed from the planes, allegedly for the side arms and even the engines ...
          The 100% probability of war became only after 13:00 on June 21 when the adiks showed photos of these same airfields where Soviet aviation wing-to-wing even occupied the runway, so there was almost nowhere to land
          Back she for half a day to scatter already failed
  • tropic
    tropic 15 December 2015 19: 32 New
    +2
    Quote: Alexey RA
    But in fact, the Empire was not killed by the Bolsheviks. The empire was killed by Russian oligarchs, generals, Duma leaders and even members of the Surname (V.K. Kirill to this example).

    Ruined? The Bolsheviks? They recreated her. Another, on a different ideological basis. Nevertheless, a fairly ordinary feudal empire.
    The only difference was that the old empire was a classic, feudal monarchy. And the new empire was on a pseudo-religious basis. Therefore, it was not the monarch (king) who ruled her, but the supreme shaman (the names changed). That’s the whole difference. Well, the regime of the maintenance of slaves was tougher, of course. Enlightened monarchy did not pull.
    1. tokens2
      tokens2 15 December 2015 23: 31 New
      -1
      tropic
      The only difference was that the old empire was a classic, feudal monarchy.

      You will call Alekseeva M.V. classic feudal lord?
      Born in the family of a former soldier of extra-long service. And we are talking about as much about the brain of the Russian army in the PMV Chief of General Staff.
      So you are wrong.
      Aristocracy quite got along with immigrants from the people.
      The Russian uniform and merits to the Fatherland in various fields, for the most part, were valued above the family tree.
      1. tropic
        tropic 16 December 2015 00: 31 New
        -1
        Quote: Lexi2
        You will call Alekseeva M.V. classic feudal lord?

        Of course not. And no one considered him a full nobleman. Half-breed. Those. a person possessing incomplete rights of a nobleman.
        Remember, the forms of feudalism are as varied as the forms of feudalism. Society in its development consistently goes through all of them. From the early, knightly. Until later, when the so-called. "service people". Those. noblemen not by blood. And it is precisely the later forms that are being replaced by bourgeois society. But not early.
        Quote: Lexi2
        The Russian uniform and merits to the Fatherland in various fields, for the most part, were valued above the family tree.

        Bullshit, of course. Even the son of a man granted the hereditary nobility, i.e. as it were, an hereditary nobleman, did not have the full rights of the pillar nobility. For example, a certain Ulyanov nicknamed Lenin. Only the grandson of the granted was considered a full-fledged hereditary nobleman. And even then, only in the case of the marriage of a son or daughter granted with a full (pillar) nobleman. For example, with Krupskaya. So the cunning wanderer Ulyanov was insured for all occasions.
        And so the tree, so it was at all the basis of the foundations.
        1. tokens2
          tokens2 16 December 2015 10: 05 New
          -1
          tropic
          Until later, when the so-called. "service people". Those. noblemen not by blood.

          I will tell you a secret.
          there are no noblemen by blood. For they were all
          "service people"

          someone before someone later.
          Of course not. And no one considered him a full nobleman. Half-breed.

          yes, and for this Alekseev became chief of the general staff.
          Do not be offended. I will add a little gray-on your epaulet.
          1. tropic
            tropic 16 December 2015 11: 49 New
            +1
            Quote: Lexi2
            no nobles by blood.

            That you tell the nobles. And especially somewhere in a feudal country where they are in power.
            Quote: Lexi2
            yes, and for this Alekseev became chief of the general staff.

            So what? He has become. But at the same time he was a half-breed. How did one interfere with the other?
  • tokens2
    tokens2 15 December 2015 15: 30 New
    -1
    As a result, in 1916 it was necessary to give loans to car factories ... which were completed again. the Bolsheviks.

    ask who gave technology and loans to the Bolsheviks.
    CAPITALISTS! Or in other words business circles of the West.
    What, of course, under the guarantees of the world revolution laughing
    Diana Ilyina
    And then they read liberal nonsense about how well Russia lived in 1913.

    Diana lived really better crying
    But war is a slightly different dimension of the economy. Russia de facto won the PMV. However, thanks to the skillful propaganda of the failures of the Russian army, a catastrophe happened! The Germans did not even reach Moscow! And why did not the revolution take place in 1812? Or in 1941?
    WWII should be called the first world hybrid war.
    1. Diana Ilyina
      Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 15: 52 New
      +7
      Quote: Lexi2

      Diana lived really better crying
      But war is a slightly different dimension of the economy. Russia de facto won the PMV. However, thanks to the skillful propaganda of the failures of the Russian army, a catastrophe happened! The Germans did not even reach Moscow! And why did not the revolution take place in 1812? Or in 1941?
      WWII should be called the first world hybrid war.


      Uy-ti lived better ...! Wow, what a pichalka! Compared to what is better ?! Illiteracy is almost universal, no social benefits and guarantees, just lived so well that it could not be better! Who owned the land ?! Probably the "people" ?! And the means of production ?!

      What expressed the hybridity of the First World War ?! At least familiarize yourself with the terminology!

      This is such a clever propaganda of the failures of the Russian army ?! Probably the one that we threw millions of our soldiers to slaughter for the sake of France holding its front against the Germans ?! Or when they starved fed lice in the trenches ?! For what great ideas did that war take place ?!

      Precisely because in 1812 and in 1941 the wars were domestic, not imperialistic, and there were no revolutions and coups!
      1. Condor-a
        Condor-a 15 December 2015 16: 32 New
        -2
        Quote: Diana Ilyina
        Wow, they lived better ...! What a pichalka! Compared to what is better ?! Illiteracy is almost universal, no social benefits and guarantees,

        Better than anywhere else, and literacy was higher than now.
        At the expense of lice you also imagined, or they were in German lol
        Quote: Diana Ilyina
        Precisely because in 1812 and in 1941 the wars were domestic, not imperialistic, and there were no revolutions and coups!

        In 1812, free French citizens went to liberate the Russians from serfdom, at first ...
        The war was not imperialistic but because of the attack on Serbia.

        You have a complete set of lying Bolshevik notions.
        In order - about where did they get illiteracy?
        1. Diana Ilyina
          Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 19: 40 New
          +7
          Quote: Condor-A
          In 1812, free French citizens went to liberate the Russians from serfdom, at first ...
          The war was not imperialistic but because of the attack on Serbia.
          You have a complete set of lying Bolshevik notions.


          Especially pleased "free French citizens", I am not in terms of a typo, but in terms of the "free" went to free the "oppressed"! good This is roughly the same as how the Vlasovites and other white-bellied underdogs went to "free" Russia from the Bolsheviks! We have seen such "liberators", they still find the bones of the "liberators" on the opposite bank of the Seversky Donets, where the Germans had a fortified area!

          You tell about the "liberators" to the residents of Donbass or to the relatives of those killed in the House of Trade Unions in Odessa!

          Serbia was the same pretext as all the pretexts invented by the Nugglo Saxons for starting wars around the world!
          1. Condor-a
            Condor-a 16 December 2015 02: 30 New
            0
            In France there was no serfdom, and the Vlasovites are not Germans at all. The export of the revolution was the same for the soldiers as before the American help. Then they saw the slaves constantly bending under them, because they spoke the same language as their bar lol and changed their minds, but in the "educational work" the desecration of churches, it was "unnecessary" ...
            Didn’t anyone invade Serbia?
            These were not sinter saxos ...
            Don’t drag in Donbass and Odessa here in which the red-breasted Rosalia Zalkind could not fall asleep until they shot 200 Russian people per evening.
        2. tropic
          tropic 15 December 2015 20: 10 New
          +2
          Quote: Condor-A
          In 1812, free French citizens went to liberate the Russians from serfdom, at first ...

          Well yes. With such a free approach, you and the Second World War write off the fact that "free German citizens" went somewhere out there and for some reason went with supposedly noble goals.
          In fact, these citizens (French and German) wanted to sneeze on the population of Russia and the USSR.
          In the first case, Alexander made friends with the Britons. Which was very disturbed by Napoleon. And he irritated Alexander too. After that, feeling a strong "roof", Alexander, under the incitement of cunning Britons, began to do things that Napoleon did not like. And he decided to punish him. Then you know. The Britons won from all this, of course.
          In the second case, the French were supposed to play the role of Russians, according to the idea of ​​the Britons. But they turned out to be more cunning than the Britons, so they showed them the famous combination of three fingers. As a result, the Britons themselves had to show off against the Germans. The Germans were offended and decided to punish the Britons. And so that no one interfered with them, they decided to quickly secure their rear. Then you also know. Benefited from all this ... the Yankees. Here is such a "pun".
          1. Condor-a
            Condor-a 16 December 2015 02: 45 New
            0
            This is your "free", but above it was specific.
            The French at first did not want to, then ceased to respect when they saw the Russians constantly bowing to them taking off their hats, because the French soldiers were groping on the same frog move as the Russian nobility, and the German from the very beginning disrespected because of Dostoevsky and fat. Has anyone seen in any other country except Russia such writers smearing poop people? Once the people wipe themselves out, then he is not worthy except to live beyond the Urals in the swampy taiga full of vileness.
            What is a strong roof from the British sitting on the island and helping the Portuguese partisans? lol
            Then you have nonsense and not a pun. Both world wars were in order to thin out the Caucasians, especially the Slavs, and the goal was generally achieved.
            The Germans did not decide anything, the "Tibetans" of Goebbels decided for them. Which were on a short leash with the Rockefellers, without knowing it ...
            1. tropic
              tropic 16 December 2015 11: 42 New
              0
              Quote: Condor-A
              What is a strong roof from the British sitting on the island and helping the Portuguese partisans?

              You are clearly at odds with the story. Read something about it.
              Quote: Condor-A
              Both world wars were to thin out Caucasians, especially Slavs

              The Slavs were on the outskirts of Europe all the way. Therefore, their fate has never interested anyone in "real Europe".
              1. Condor-a
                Condor-a 16 December 2015 14: 08 New
                0
                No, it's you with georgafia ...

                Ap chom? What was the size of the small British ground forces at that time? Well, why didn’t they land in Normandy, even then? lol

                Yes, yes, Anna Yaroslavna wrote about this ...

                not printing ink

                Tropical hutspes and cut? bully
              2. tropic
                tropic 16 December 2015 16: 24 New
                0
                Quote: Condor-A
                Well, why didn’t they land in Normandy, even then?

                Exactly the same reason why they did not land in Normandy before 1944. The Moor had to have time to do his job.
                Quote: Condor-A
                Yes, yes, Anna Yaroslavna wrote about this ...

                I don’t remember something that she wrote something about the backyards. If you are talking about baths, then do not take her words out of context. There were understandable reasons.
              3. Condor-a
                Condor-a 17 December 2015 01: 24 New
                0
                1944 was until 1945, 1815 after 1814

                It was not even the backyard ...

                What is the context about the baths and other reasons?
                she taught some of them to just wash, the context was still far from the birch bath with brooms.
                the bathhouse is not an order (and this order is in England) if something though it is hung up for a bare part of a body lol
                Then the context disappeared, the aristocracy got champagne and perfumes, as well as body flea markets, and in Paris at the beginning of the 20th century there were only two baths - at the beginning of the eleventh wolves ran around the streets, that is, it was not even fenced, and then the enemy climbed a wall over a pile of garbage and took this city wassat
              4. Condor-a
                Condor-a 17 December 2015 02: 39 New
                0
                About what they say "the Slavs have always been on the outskirts" you wrote it here.

                Your "backyard" is a sore subject, apparently to the excess of chutzpes, the vocabulary is still small.
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. Condor-a
            Condor-a 16 December 2015 15: 40 New
            -1
            For everything else mentioned in the previous comment above, as I understand it, you had no objection? laughing
          3. tropic
            tropic 16 December 2015 16: 27 New
            -2
            Why mind the man who writes sheer rubbish? Let him write. I am a tolerant person.
          4. Condor-a
            Condor-a 17 December 2015 01: 09 New
            -1
            Let's start from afar, who told you that you are a person?
          5. tropic
            tropic 17 December 2015 01: 23 New
            +1
            And the boor is also not going to object. And chat with him, too.
          6. Condor-a
            Condor-a 17 December 2015 01: 27 New
            0
            So all the same? bully Dr. Goebbels was one of yours, he simply broke the chain, and maybe, judging by his greyhound, he never sat on it ...
          7. Condor-a
            Condor-a 17 December 2015 02: 05 New
            0
            Merge, merge into your "black list" ... laughing
      2. Condor-a
        Condor-a 17 December 2015 02: 35 New
        0
        What nonsense, where's the nonsense? You are trying to make Tolerastov (and others like them) here.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Inok10
    Inok10 15 December 2015 16: 34 New
    +3
    Quote: Diana Ilyina
    Illiteracy is almost universal,

    .. my grandfather was born in 1903, the village of Zubovo in the Kostroma region, in 1905 there were 50 yards and 500 souls in the village, he graduated from the Galich gymnasium, knew German with full grammar and English, I don’t speak about algebra and geometry at all since I ended the war near Dresden, commander of an artillery battery, starting back in Finnish, he knew how to carpentry, join in carpentry, sew hats and cooked excellently .. a peasant son, 3 older brothers and a sister .. it was about literacy ..
    Quote: Diana Ilyina
    no social benefits and guarantees

    ..
    In particular, they cite Russia's "hopeless lag" behind the West in meat consumption (29 kg per capita in 1913). But, firstly, the Orthodox have half of the days of the year are lean, even selling meat was considered indecent during Lent. secondly, due to the disregarded natural (personal, household) economy, according to official Russian statistics, rural residents (even in cattle-breeding areas) consumed 10 times less meat (6,2 kg) than townspeople (68,6 kg), which There could be no way (no one counted chickens, ducks and geese in rural areas, not to mention fish and game)! However, the overall average figure was 29 kg.
    Another figure seems more real to the truth - the prescribed rate of meat consumption in the army: on the day "? pounds [307 g] or money to buy it, ”that is 112 kg per year, and this is a completely different picture. ("Russia. 1913". St. Petersburg, 1995. S. 305, 293).
    The standard of living includes rest: the number of non-working (Sunday and holidays) days in a year in Russia was 100 110 among workers, 140 among peasants (65 in Western countries, only 55 in England). Social insurance for workers in Russia was introduced by 1912 (formerly the West),
    .. it is to social guarantees ..
    Quote: Diana Ilyina
    Probably the "people" ?! And the means of production ?!

    .. and further control to the head ..
    Russia was an example of a mixed economy. The private sector was combined with the cooperative (in 1914 there were 30 thousand cooperatives with more than 10 million members) and a powerful public sector that set the tone (it owned two-thirds of railways, mines, steam locomotives, military factories). This means that the national product, to a lesser extent than in the West, was appropriated by the top private capital, and served the entire state. Progressive income tax, in contrast to Western countries, was completely absent.
    .. I have nothing to talk about with you, you are illiterate and do not know your own story .. hi
    1. Inok10
      Inok10 15 December 2015 16: 41 New
      +4
      Quote: Diana Ilyina
      Wow, they lived better ...!

      .. and here’s Milochka quote from the Great Soviet Encyclopedia of the 1975 edition, is it neither a source nor an authority for you ?! .. laughing laughing laughing
      In 1913, the main sector of the Russian economy was agriculture, which accounted for 55,7% of the income. Despite this, there was a rapid growth in industrial production, according to which Russia ranked fifth in the world (USA 35,8%, Germany 15,7%, Great Britain 14% and France 6,4%, Russia 5,3%). At the same time, Russia was constantly increasing this share due to the outstripping development rates, and even in first place in the world in terms of production concentration (the share of large modern enterprises). (TSB. 3rd ed. 1975.V. 22.P. 226.)

      .. I highly recommend you Dear Diana .. cut vinaigrette and cook borscht .. I think you get it, than to talk about the history of the Russian State ..
      1. Condor-a
        Condor-a 15 December 2015 16: 45 New
        -2
        Quote: Inok10
        . cut vinaigrette and cook borscht .. I think it turns out for you, than to talk about the history of the Russian State ..

        Yes, with her there is only a chult ... lol wassat
      2. Diana Ilyina
        Diana Ilyina 15 December 2015 17: 24 New
        +7
        Quote: Inok10

        .. I highly recommend you Dear Diana .. cut vinaigrette and cook borscht .. I think you get it, than to talk about the history of the Russian State ..


        Well, who would doubt that when a man has nothing to bring in terms of arguments, he sends a woman to the kitchen to cook borsch! But they didn’t try to cook it themselves! And not for you to compete with me on history, a lover of quoting Wikipedia!
        1. Inok10
          Inok10 15 December 2015 22: 33 New
          +3
          Quote: Diana Ilyina
          Well, who would doubt that when a man has nothing to bring in terms of arguments, he sends a woman to the kitchen to cook borsch! But they didn’t try to cook it themselves! And not for you to compete with me on history, a lover of quoting Wikipedia!

          ... it’s not difficult for me to repeat myself, for the Lady .. quote from BIG SOVIET ENCYCLOPAEDIA 3rd EDITION OF 1975 VOL. 22, PAGE. 226 ..
          In 1913, the main sector of the Russian economy was agriculture, which accounted for 55,7% of the income. Despite this, there was a rapid growth in industrial production, according to which Russia ranked fifth in the world (USA 35,8%, Germany 15,7%, Great Britain 14% and France 6,4%, Russia 5,3%). At the same time, Russia was constantly increasing this share due to the outstripping development rates, and even in first place in the world in terms of production concentration (the share of large modern enterprises). (TSB. 3rd ed. 1975.V. 22.P. 226.)

          if you’re not happy with Aunt Vika ... well, the Great Soviet Encyclopedia ?! .. is not an argument either? .. or did you find my first post with a quote an obsession? ..no, dear Lady, will have to accept as it is .. hi
          1. Inok10
            Inok10 15 December 2015 23: 26 New
            +3
            Quote: Diana Ilyina
            Well, who would doubt that when a man has nothing to bring in terms of arguments, he sends a woman to the kitchen to cook borsch! But they didn’t try to cook it themselves! And not for you to compete with me on history, a lover of quoting Wikipedia!

            .. and another quote from the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, and then suddenly Lady Amnesia happens about her own words .. Woman .. bully
  • tokens2
    tokens2 15 December 2015 17: 02 New
    +1
    Diana Ilyina RU
    Probably the one that we threw millions of our soldiers to slaughter for the sake of France holding its front against the Germans ?!

    soldiers are always allowed to be "slaughtered" in war.
    rough reality s.
    Moreover, in the Second World War the massacre was just to stay on the edge and survive. Unlike the WWII, where all the losses were solely for the purpose of preventing a major military catastrophe. They retreated very competently, realizing that Russian industry needed time! And as soon as the army solved its task deterring the enemy ... the enemy hit from the rear.
    This is the hybridity of indirect effects.
    At least familiarize yourself with the terminology!

    I've already heard from many here about all kinds of terminologies. Can you surprise me with something new? Although I doubt it.
    Illiteracy is almost universal, no social benefits and guarantees, just lived so well that it could not be better! Who owned the land ?! Probably the "people" ?! And the means of production ?!

    You see, Diana ... education is a very specific criterion for evaluating a person’s happiness, and even more so for the people.
    It’s precisely known, for example, that education directly affects fertility. And the number of children in families. Fact? Fact.
    By the way, educational methods in the near future can help laughing take a fresh look at a simple worker, with the highest performance !!! with a very negative result for a person (reasonable) that is, with a higher education.
    In other words, how to teach scientific languages. And most importantly, what language is absolutely not important.
    It is clear that the language of the Russian peasant was more expressive. For example, a lecture by a professor’s thread.
    Well, in general, YOU understand. Where do you look for the origins of your "illiteracy" / Namely in the Russian village. If you are Russian. If not. Then in the aul.
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 15 December 2015 17: 30 New
      -1
      Each church had parish schools, as in auls - I don’t know
  • tropic
    tropic 15 December 2015 17: 27 New
    +1
    Quote: Diana Ilyina
    Precisely because in 1812 and in 1941 the wars were domestic

    Yes? And what was so domestic about them?
    Quote: Diana Ilyina
    not imperialistic and there were no revolutions and coups

    It is not a matter of "nativeness", but of the end result.
    And the essence of all these wars (1812, 1MB and WWII) is exactly the same.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Alekseev
    Alekseev 15 December 2015 15: 00 New
    +1
    Quote: avg
    along with high combat training, it is more important than their saturation with various "wunderwaffles".

    That's right!
    But wunderrahs are needed ... All professions, that is, components of military power, are important and necessary.
    Especially at certain fractures of military development.
    Let’s recall the MiG-15 in Korea, not to mention missile weapons.
    Radical changes in the performance characteristics of weapons change tactics and strategy, too.
    But it’s absolutely right that a trained shooter will now fight no less than the worse, but better than an unprepared shooter with a Dragunov rifle or AKM.
    Yes, even less ammunition. wink
  • Foxbed
    Foxbed 15 December 2015 17: 46 New
    0
    What came first - "chicken or egg?" ....
    Quote: avg
    An article about the fact that the correct organization of the troops meeting modern requirements, their "sharpening" for precise interaction to fulfill the main task, along with high combat training, is more important than their saturation with various "wunderwaves".

    ... And then a tactical nuclear warhead arrives at a highly professional, well-interacting, marching unit ... wink repeat
  • aleks 62 next
    aleks 62 next 15 December 2015 11: 54 New
    +1
    ..... So what is the article about? what ....

    ... It’s also not clear .... But about aircraft, it’s better to use different material .... Link: http://topwar.ru/7742-istrebiteli-vtoroy-mirovoy-voyny-luchshie-iz-luchshih.-vzg
    lyad-inzhenera..html

    .... Much better, and most importantly, everything is expertly described .... hi
    1. Altona
      Altona 15 December 2015 13: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: aleks 62 next
      . So what is the article about?

      -----------------------
      The article is generally about a simple one, about the availability of resources for waging war. Japan and Germany could not endure resource hunger, as one of the reasons for their defeat.
  • ratfly
    ratfly 15 December 2015 11: 57 New
    10
    On the harmonious development of the sun.
    1. Sid.74
      Sid.74 15 December 2015 12: 42 New
      +3
      If you want to really see a fabulous weapon, then this is to Ukraine ... what
      NARs on the moto-rider were added ... request

      On the armament of the army of Ukraine, you can see unusual samples of military equipment. Aircraft units with unguided C-8 missiles are mounted on armored vehicles, the Herald of Mordovia reports. On the machine is installed on two units, producing for 20 NAR (unguided aircraft rocket, abbr. - NAR). The weight of an empty block is 150 kg, equipped with 450 kg.
      See completely: http://politrussia.com/news/v-vsu-postupaet-502/
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 15 December 2015 13: 25 New
        +1
        Quote: Sid.74
        NARs added to the motor-league ..

        It's not even a pure "motorcycle league". They wrote that the Strela-10 air defense missile system was used to create these MLRSs.
        1. Sid.74
          Sid.74 15 December 2015 13: 53 New
          +1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          They wrote that the Strela-10 air defense missile system was used to create these MLRSs.

          belay ... No words, just no words ... fool
  • avt
    avt 15 December 2015 12: 20 New
    -6
    Quote: Foxbed
    So what is the article about?

    The hike that new equipment with new characteristics is not needed, but it is better to do more, instead of bringing to mind the Armata, T-72, and even better from the same metal PMs, and even better - knives, bayonets and sapper blades, well, which are small infantry. wassat Well, according to General Dragomirov's words, there are more weapons of self-denial than weapons of self-preservation. It could have been even shorter, without bothering with the article, to write - Bullet, bayonet - walking, the main thing is to have time to stab, and if not - to escape.
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 15 December 2015 13: 34 New
      0
      A hike that new equipment with new characteristics is not needed, but it is better to do more, instead of bringing to mind the "Armata", T-72, and even better from the same metal PMs


      No, no one encroaches on the Armata and the T-50, they just remind that the old horse will not spoil the furrow either. Especially if you upgrade it well. So let the SU-27 and T-72 make furrows, but Armata with the T-50 will be concretely and deeply plowing "partners".
  • Blondy
    Blondy 15 December 2015 12: 22 New
    +8
    Quote: Foxbed
    So what is the article about?

    The main thing is not a waffle, but a skill.
  • Sweles
    Sweles 15 December 2015 12: 28 New
    +2
    Fabulous, magical and amazing military equipment


    Well, firstly, the author should not be scattered in words, the pathos of use does not coincide with the meaning and purpose. The Germans spoke of a child prodigy, but not in relation to tigers, messerschmites and panthers, but what Hitler meant is unknown, possibly an atomic weapon.

    Fabulous, magical and amazing military equipment

    Such is the "magic Zero"


    the impression is that the world of sensations for the author is much closer than the arguments of the mind.

    Ask someone about the Wehrmacht armored vehicles, and he will immediately call you Tiger, Panther or Ferdinand / Elephanta. Sturmtigr or Jagdpanther are also on the menu. But in practice, the main vehicle for moving around the battlefield "Guderianov's nestlings" were T IV (in very different versions). Those same T IV, which were the best outside the USSR 1941 year. They remained the basis of Pantservafe from the beginning to the end of the war. A bit boring and offensive, I understand, and, nevertheless, - T IV. No options.


    at the level of sensations, the author proved that the main tank in those days was t4, not t5 or t6, well, so it’s clear that it’s enough to look at the statistics of tank production and everything falls into place
    t4-to 9tys.sht - all modifications
    t6-1300pcs
    it is clear that the main tank for Germany in those years is the T4
    http://www.4tanks.ru/nations/german/pz4.php#one
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 12: 53 New
      0
      The Germans said wunderwafe, but not in relation to tigers, Messerschmitts and panthers, but what Hitler meant is unknown, perhaps an atomic weapon.


      Think about it: the war was monstrous in scope, millions were lost, Germany was defeated ...
      But what Hitler meant by the word "wunderwaffe" remained a mystery.
      Is this a good sense of humor?


      But in general:
      V-1 V-2 Me-262 and the Royal Tiger, as well as the latest series of submarines, in principle, so it was possible to call
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 15 December 2015 13: 06 New
        +1
        I think Hitler was fooled at the end of the war by the SS men in charge
        on the latest weapons. They sucked in him that the atomic bomb was about to
        will be ready, it will be screwed to V-2 and - a miracle victory! am
        And themselves - the money that was allocated for development was transferred to the South
        Anerik, where they fled at the very end of the war.
        Underground factories were far away - in the Czech Republic, check info from Berlin
        it was difficult. Here the Fuhrer lived on exciting drugs and false hopes.
        until the end. Therefore, he sent selected SS troops to distant Hungary
        (where they were defeated by Soviet troops) instead of defending the capital Berlin.
        1. avt
          avt 15 December 2015 14: 38 New
          +1
          Quote: voyaka uh
          e. They sucked in him that the atomic bomb was about to
          will be ready, it will be screwed to V-2 and - a miracle victory!

          They vryatli on A-4, and their nuclear project was by no means so sour - the first to do a heavy water plant, again arrested in the USSR in 1937 as a German spy and released at the request of foreign physicists including Bora Houtermans appeared in Kharkov in uniform SS in captured with staff (Interesting however fact! request ) and stating - "Work as before." Source - Pavel Sudoplatov.
          Quote: voyaka uh
          . Here the Fuhrer lived on exciting drugs and false hopes.
          until the end. Therefore, he sent selected SS troops to distant Hungary

          No. Rather, we can talk about the fact that Stalin perfectly understood that practically until April 1945, nothing had been decided yet, but having knocked out Romanian oil and coal from the Silesian basin from under the Germans, he left them without fuel. Even in the Ardennes, German aviation was able to terrorize literally a few hours, well, a day, then the fuel ran out and the sky was closed by the US. Again, the source is Kraminov, a journalist "who passed with the allies to Europe since the landing in Normandy, where TASS was transferred from Egypt , where he watched the suppression of the pro-Nazi uprising by the Angles.
          Quote: Condor-A
          The fact that the Me-262 is so bad ...

          Well, yes, it became "bad" when the US established blocking of airfields and brought them down on takeoff and landing.
          1. Condor-a
            Condor-a 15 December 2015 14: 50 New
            -3
            They began to bring them down a little ... laughing
            Everyone thinks in his own categories. lol (this is about the NBC), with nuclear these V-2 would only need a few pieces, don’t you?
            1. avt
              avt 15 December 2015 18: 07 New
              0
              Quote: Condor-A
              , with nuclear these V-2 would only need a few pieces, don’t you?

              Question for me? If to me, then I do not quite understand what. Well, according to the atomic project, I think so - the Germans could well have a sample of an atomic bomb in what is called in metal, but they could not test it and even more so bring it to the state of a combat model for some kind of carrier. What prevented? I think there are a set of reasons - intelligence aimed at sabotage (Leander, better known as Semyonov, wrote his opuses based on specific cases to which he was given permission. TASS is authorized to declare "and reprinted almost a real case. Nicaragua and Colombia were exchanged for Africa with fictional countries and that's all. So Stirlitz and his participation in the atomic project is not such a fiction - there could be something interesting in life and not only in the intelligence of the USSR, especially since I have already mentioned Houtermans and his work in the laboratory of occupied Kharkov), sabotage and, of course, the swift offensive of the Soviet Army, which deprived them of time to “work on mistakes.” Where could she go? Yes, to the US, we got only the uranium mines of Thuringia from this project and in Hungary it seems, but I don't remember from memory, then we washed the uranium sand "in Bulgaria (so for the USSR the zone of influence in Bulgaria was so important that Stalin completely sacrificed pro-communist Greece for himself) because it became poor with raw materials in the European zone of occupation.
              1. Condor-a
                Condor-a 15 December 2015 18: 26 New
                0
                Nothing stopped - they could. The application was hindered by the rapid advance of the Red Army and the failure of the Wehrmacht at Balaton.
                The first 15 years in the Soviet bombs was almost exclusively GDR uranium, it was not necessary to sculpt the hunchback of everything above with the Bulgarian sand.
  • veksha50
    veksha50 15 December 2015 12: 54 New
    +2
    Quote: Foxbed
    So what is the article about?



    In general, the short message of the article: "Cadres decide everything" ... with a small addition "Competently trained and organized cadres" ...
  • Condor-a
    Condor-a 15 December 2015 13: 15 New
    -2
    The fact that the Me-262 is so bad ... Even the panther was dragged into this, although while it (the heavy tank) was producing medium T-IVs, slightly more were released.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 15 December 2015 13: 22 New
      +1
      Quote: Condor-A
      Even a panther was drawn to this, although in the meantime, while it (a heavy tank) was producing medium T-IVs, slightly more were released.

      Panther is a medium tank. And in the history of creation, and in armament, and in defense, and by place in the structure of the Panzervaffe.

      In the Panzerwaffe, the heavyweights went to separate tank battalions. And the "panthers" - in line tank battalions of tank regiments of panzer divisions. Actually, the "fifth cat" was made to replace the "three" and "four".

      And it is difficult to call a heavy tank, whose board is thinner than the T-34, and which is vulnerable even to PTR, not to mention the 45-mm PTP.

      As for the mass ... well, the Germans could not in the T-44. laughing
      1. Condor-a
        Condor-a 15 December 2015 14: 02 New
        -2
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Panther is a medium tank.

        ... well, then Is-2 is also a medium tank, and the T-34 and T-IV are light laughing
        and there were no heavy tanks except the T-VI.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 15 December 2015 15: 16 New
          +1
          Quote: Condor-A
          ... well, then Is-2 is also a medium tank, and the T-34 and T-IV are light

          IS-2 were in the linear tank brigades? Or was it made to replace the T-34? Or maybe its release was comparable to the T-34? Or did he make his way into the side of a tower of 14,5 mm PTR?

          Read the story of the Panther. There it is clearly spelled out - why it was made, whom it was supposed to replace and which units were armed with it. Well, the fact that the Germans ended up with a CT with a mass of TT is already their personal problem. According to a similar specification, we got the T-44.

          By the way, uv. M.N. Svirin wrote that the title of his work "heavy tank" Panther "that went to press was not agreed with him.
          1. Condor-a
            Condor-a 15 December 2015 16: 43 New
            0
            No, Panther - 45 tons, Is-2 - 46 tons.
            Tiger - 57-70 tons
            T-34 - 22 tons

            The panther had no problems ...
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 15 December 2015 18: 10 New
              +1
              Quote: Condor-A
              No, Panther - 45 tons, Is-2 - 46 tons.
              Tiger - 57-70 tons
              T-34 - 22 tons

              M26 Pershing - 43 tons. Middle.
              1. Condor-a
                Condor-a 15 December 2015 18: 17 New
                -1
                Quote: Condor-A
                Is-2 - 46 tons.

                Medium.

                The average is the one that is not heavy. bully
                IS-2 (Object 240) - Soviet heavy tank during the Great Patriotic War.
      2. tropic
        tropic 15 December 2015 17: 35 New
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Panther is a medium tank.

        Panther heavy tank. A wonderful German classification is not worth remembering.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        And it’s hard to call a heavy tank, whose board is thinner than the T-34

        The Germans had a different principle for protecting tanks. And here is the T-34? This product is from another country.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The heavies in the Panzerwaffe went to separate tank battalions. And the "panthers" - in line tank battalions of tank regiments of panzerdivisions

        Not an argument.
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Actually, the "fifth cat" was made to replace the "three" and "four".

        Three should be removed from here. To replace the four, but at a new qualitative level. Therefore, the tank turned out (according to the Soviet classification) heavy.
        And three were written off completely. Like a class.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 15 December 2015 18: 15 New
          0
          Quote: tropic
          The Germans had a different principle for protecting tanks. And here is the T-34? This product is from another country.

          What is the other principle? A heavy tank should have all-round protection against infantry anti-tank infantry fighting vehicles at their effective range.
          "Tiger" and KT with their 82-mm board satisfy this principle. But "panther" is not.

          Just compare the armor protection of what the Germans thought were heavy tanks with the Panther.
          Quote: tropic
          Three should be removed from here. To replace the four, but at a new qualitative level. Therefore, the tank turned out (according to the Soviet classification) heavy.

          Where to remove? It was the most widespread Panzerwaffe tank in 1942, the basis of the Panzerwaffe. "Fours" were only 20-30 vehicles per division.
          And it was to replace the "three" that the "panthers" went along with the "illegitimate" fours.
          1. Condor-a
            Condor-a 15 December 2015 18: 20 New
            0
            "Heavy" is measured in tons

            So the Germans did not consider the IS-2 as a heavy tank.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 15 December 2015 18: 41 New
              0
              Quote: Condor-A
              "Heavy" is measured in tons

              Heavy is measured in armor protection, weapon power and tactical purpose.
              What does the "panther" possess?
              Maybe she has armor protection? There is - only on VLD. The remaining projections make their way through the regular infantry fighting vehicles (standard (!) - without amplification iptap and iptabr). And even PTR. That is, no breakthrough of defense is obtained - because already by 1943 the PTO of the Red Army switched from firing into the frontal projection from the direct range of the anti-tank fire to the practice of flank and oblique fire, when the guns were fired left and right - on the sides of tanks going to the neighbors (like Germans in 1941). That is, booking the sides for the panzer has become important.
              Maybe the "panther" has a powerful cannon? Again, no - the cannon on it is sharpened for the fight against armored objects. For field fortifications, infantry, and anti-tank gun positions (the main targets of TTs when breaking through defenses), its effectiveness is slightly higher than that of the 45-mm. This is not a hyperbole, but the results of domestic tests 75 / L70 - the high initial velocity of the OFS led to thickening of the walls, a decrease in the mass of the explosive and too much deepening into the ground before rupture.
              Quote: Condor-A
              So the Germans did not consider the IS-2 as a heavy tank.

              And let's look at the IS-2.
              Armor protection: 100-120 mm forehead, 90 mm side. Thicker than a "tiger". Compare with the "panther"?
              Armament: 122 mm cannon. Compare with the "panther"?

              The IS-2 is just a classic heavy. But the "panther" has neither circular armor nor a powerful cannon. Its mass increased because the Germans missed the booked volume, overestimating the hull.

              With a different layout scheme "panther" could well fit into 32-35 tons.
              1. tropic
                tropic 15 December 2015 19: 04 New
                0
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Heavy is measured in armor protection, weapon power and tactical purpose.

                In tons, in tons. Everything else is derived from these very tons.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                What does the "panther" possess?

                To everyone. Fully.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The remaining projections make their way through the regular infantry fighting vehicles (standard (!) - without amplification iptap and iptabr)

                The Germans did not believe that their tankers and motorized infantry would be allowed to shoot at tanks in "other projections."
                In addition, there is apparently information that cemented armor was used in other Panther projections (and not only them), passed by you. And 1 mm of cemented heterogeneous armor is far from equal to 1 mm of Soviet homogeneous armor. In addition, cast iron armor was widely used in Soviet tanks. This is not the same thing either. The Germans did not use cast armor at all.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                already by 1943 the anti-tank defense of the Red Army had switched from firing into the frontal projection from the direct-fire range of anti-tank fire to the practice of flank and oblique fire, when the guns were fired left and right - on the sides of tanks going to the neighbors (like the Germans in 1941). That is, the reservation of boards for the panzer has become important

                Well, you do not carry nonsense. See the armor penetration of Soviet guns at sharp angles. These are tears. There was nothing to beat so deftly as you describe.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Maybe the "panther" has a powerful cannon? Again, no - the gun on it is sharpened for the fight against armored objects

                Forced to admit, in guns you do not understand anything. Panther had a powerful cannon. Just a plague. Where is the Soviet S-53 on the T-34.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                its effectiveness is slightly higher than that of the 45 mm. This is not a hyperbole, but the results of domestic tests 75 / L70 - a high initial velocity of the general physical structure has led to a thickening of the walls, a decrease in the mass of explosives and too much deepening into the ground before rupture.

                Everything is greatly exaggerated. And not so true. The advantages are fictitious. Well, the "ingenious and legendary" T-34/85 should have surpassed Putntra in some way? Should. So they came up with "advantages". Then, after the war.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 16 December 2015 11: 47 New
                  0
                  Quote: tropic
                  In addition, there is apparently information that cemented armor was used in other Panther projections (and not only them), passed by you.

                  The Germans left cemented armor in 1943 - there were too many problems during the repair. Remained superficially hardened.
                  And in 1944, when analyzing the chemical composition of the armor of captured "panthers", ours suddenly discovered that their sides were made of structural steel. smile
                  Quote: tropic
                  The Germans did not use cast armor at all.

                  Limited use.
                  Quote: tropic
                  Well, you do not carry nonsense. See the armor penetration of Soviet guns at sharp angles. These are tears. There was nothing to beat so deftly as you describe.

                  What are the sharp corners? The firing range for the most popular anti-tank missiles is 200-500 m. The angles were about 30 degrees from the normal.
                  The main task of the anti-tank commander was precisely to position the guns and cut sectors to avoid firing at rebound angles. And for this, all sorts of tricks were used - false positions and flirting guns.
                  Quote: tropic
                  Forced to admit, in guns you do not understand anything. Panther had a powerful cannon. Just a plague. Where is the Soviet S-53 on the T-34.

                  When working on tanks, yes.
                  But when working on the main targets of tanks in the WWII - the infantry, its fortifications and anti-tank vehicles - the high-speed "Panther" cannon was inferior to the ZIS-S-53 and F-34 ... and was somewhere slightly above 20-K.
                  Quote: tropic
                  Everything is greatly exaggerated. And not so true. The advantages are fictitious. Well, the "ingenious and legendary" T-34/85 should have surpassed Putntra in some way? Should. So they came up with "advantages". Then, after the war.

                  Why invent any advantages? The war put everything in its place. The winners had the T-34-85, which even after the war served many places for a long time. And the losers - the "panther", which even the French who received it for free quickly abandoned.
                  1. tropic
                    tropic 16 December 2015 12: 10 New
                    0
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The Germans left cemented armor in 1943 - there were too many problems during the repair. Remained superficially hardened.

                    You confuse the thick and thin German armor. Depending on the thickness, it was different.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And in 1944, when analyzing the chemical composition of the armor of captured "panthers", ours suddenly discovered that their sides were made of structural steel

                    Do not write nonsense. Due to the lack of additives at the end of the war, they were replaced by others. The replacement was not equivalent. But the Germans did not make tanks of structural steel.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The firing range for the most massive anti-tank missiles is 200-500 m.

                    500? For forty-five? And what could they break through at such a distance? A hefty three-inch at such a distance can not be disguised. Therefore, from ambushes they could shoot aboard. But an ambush is an exception, not a rule. The Germans were not suckers either.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And for this, all sorts of tricks were used - false positions and flirting guns

                    So I say, an ambush. Because the main guns were in ambushes.
                    Such tricks say only one thing, the artillery of the anti-terrorist operation was good for nothing. Normal anti-tank artillery must perforate tanks in the forehead from distances safe for it.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    But when working on the main targets of tanks in the WWII - the infantry, its fortifications and anti-tank vehicles - the high-speed "Panther" cannon was inferior to the ZIS-S-53 and F-34 ... and was somewhere slightly above 20-K.

                    To begin with, everything you wrote is complete rubbish. The Panther’s gun was inferior only in defeat by fragmentation shells. In practice, this meant that her shell worked worse on artillery VET, in terms of fragmentation. But given the accuracy of the fire, i.e. considering everything in the complex, the Germans were even in a better position than the Soviet tankers. Do not forget, the Germans had a much more stable suspension (in the T-34 it was simply without stabilizers at all). And the gun. Therefore, a more powerful fragmentation shell T-34 was vital. But the Germans, no.
                    Also, these guns worked better on enemy tanks and fortifications of his infantry.
                    Infantry itself was not a target for guns. Germans rarely shot at guns from sparrows; they had other means of destruction for this. More effective.
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    The war put everything in its place. The winners had the T-34-85, which served in many places after the war. And the losers - the "panther", which even the French who received it for free quickly abandoned.

                    Also try to compare the number of products. And especially, the amount of lost products. Be very surprised.
                    So the AK-47 / AKM serves a lot where. If given for free, why not take it?
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Condor-a
                Condor-a 15 December 2015 19: 10 New
                0
                In a tactical mission is not measured.
                Do not bother ...
                Panther is the most perfect tank of WWII, appeared later than the heavier Tiger. It had a unique weapon with more than his armor penetration.
                Booking the sides for tanks was always important, and the Germans, like the Russians, didn’t shoot like that.
                The last three paragraphs are delirium and licking of wounds.
          2. tropic
            tropic 15 December 2015 18: 50 New
            0
            Quote: Alexey RA
            A heavy tank should have all-round protection against infantry anti-tank infantry fighting vehicles at their effective range.

            Who told you this? Have you come up with it yourself? Do you understand the meaning of the word "heavy"? Think about it.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Just compare the armor protection of what the Germans thought were heavy tanks with the Panther.

            You first specify in terms of which country you are communicating with. In different countries, the meaning of this term was different. I try to communicate in Soviet terms. Maybe because I'm not German. Are you German?
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Where to remove?

            Wherever you please. By the middle of the war, the three were merged. To the scrap. And without heirs.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And it was to replace the "three" that the "panthers" went along with the "illegitimate" fours.

            Not true. Three were replaced in the spring of 1942. the four came in a modification of Pz.KpfW.IV Ausf.F2. However, conceptually the heiress of the three she was not. Three were left without heirs, like its Soviet counterpart BT-7 (we don’t remember about the T-50, because there’s nothing).
            To replace Pz.KpfW.IV in the summer of 1943. came Pz.KpfW.V. But part of the generals managed to keep Pz.KpfW.IV in production, in parallel with Pz.KpfW.V. I do not know how this was the right decision. Now is not about that.
          3. The comment was deleted.
  • tomket
    tomket 15 December 2015 13: 22 New
    +1
    Quote: Foxbed
    So what is the article about?

    The fact that the tank army model 43-44. better and more efficient than a 41-year tank mechanized corps. There are fewer tanks, but more usefulness, despite the fact that the T-34-85 were still inferior in a one-on-one duel to both the "Panther" and the "Tiger" in exactly the same degree as the KV-1 were superior to all German tanks by 41 years.
  • Victor-M
    Victor-M 15 December 2015 13: 33 New
    -1
    Quote: Foxbed
    So what is the article about? what

    About skill, not property. laughing
  • kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 15 December 2015 13: 34 New
    -1
    I will answer with a quote from Ilyich: "... to study military science in a real way ..."! And you couldn't say better!
  • lelikas
    lelikas 15 December 2015 13: 41 New
    0
    The question is rather not about anything, but for whom - the target audience - children from the first class, to adolescents and people, in principle, not interested in military equipment and military affairs.
    And so - everything is correct. You could write even shorter - To fight not by number, but by skill. (Suvorov).
  • Max_Bauder
    Max_Bauder 15 December 2015 13: 45 New
    -1
    Quote: Foxbed
    So what is the article about?


    I understand that this is reflected at the end of the article

    Therefore, the mere rearmament of the Armata T-50 and further on the list is unlikely to solve all the problems of the Russian Armed Forces. Indeed, the Crimean War, for example, was won primarily not by rifled guns vs smooth-bore and not steel steamers vs sailboats (as is commonly thought), but by the general production and logistics capabilities of the British and French empires. And in World War I, backward Russia did not suffer from the absence of a “wunderwaffe”, but from a banal lack of shells for existing artillery systems. And from the lack of full-fledged heavy artillery, oddly enough. That's so simple, it went and to some extent corny.


    So it is, in World War II our Germans were defeated despite the fact that they had the most advanced equipment, a Tiger tank, a Schmeiser, an MG-42 machine gun, a half-tracked armored personnel carrier, a Messerschmitt plane and so on. The main thing we had was almost the same but a lot, the mass decides everything. Even now, let's say 100 people meet with AK-47 Kalash and 100 people with an M-4 rifle, even taking into account that accuracy and other things are better with Amersky’s, in fact, it decides completely different - tactics, the ability to shoot accurately, not to panic, and, most importantly, the spirit. So the wunderwale is not so important in artillery, airplanes, tanks and small arms. As they say, each tank has its own RPG. The mass sometimes decides.

    Although there are exceptions: for example, the Dreyze needle rifle, the Austro-Prussian war and the battle of Koniggretz (Sadovaya).


    In the modern era, this applies mainly to electronic warfare and missiles, since in the rest of the weapons, everything is almost the same for everyone. But electronic warfare and missiles can solve a lot, if, for example, yours is even a little faster and "hits" a little further, then you will kill him first and not vice versa.
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 15 December 2015 14: 16 New
      -3
      "Osttalaya" Russia gave the Soyuznegs a gas mask, rescued them with its counterattacks from 1914 to 1917 (incl), and forced them with its troops directly on the Western Front. They threw it with the help constantly, especially in 1915.
  • Private IITR
    Private IITR 15 December 2015 13: 59 New
    0
    In the photo Mouse?
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 15: 15 New
      0
      In the photo Mouse?


      Yong most
  • Truth
    Truth 15 December 2015 14: 03 New
    0
    Quote: Foxbed
    So what is the article about?

    The article that first of all it is necessary to destroy trained crews, this very "super weapon" and this very "super weapon" immediately becomes a banal heap of iron.
    That is, at this time, the formation of sabotage and reconnaissance groups with the tasks to destroy the trained enemy personnel is very important.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Simple
    Simple 15 December 2015 16: 18 New
    0
    Diarrhea?
    Answer: verbal diarrhea
  • mav1971
    mav1971 15 December 2015 19: 54 New
    0
    Quote: Foxbed
    So what is the article about? what


    Logistics, including military, it is also the service of the rear, the most important thing in fact.
  • gladcu2
    gladcu2 16 December 2015 17: 02 New
    0
    Foxbed

    Good article.

    The conclusion is in the penultimate paragraph. Very practical remark.
  • marlin1203
    marlin1203 15 December 2015 11: 47 New
    +7
    And why write so much about it? Everyone at VO probably already knows about the history of weapons and military equipment since WW2, and the fact that there are basic models and new developments with the subsequent transition to new models is also not a secret for anyone. But the fact that German military science has gone much ahead in its time is an irrefutable fact. Here and jet aviation, and rocketry and the atom, and much more. And if it were not for Hitler's foreign policy mistakes in choosing "goals", then it is not known in what world we would all live now ...
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 12: 41 New
      0
      Yes, and the fact that there are basic models and new developments with the subsequent transition to new models is also not a secret. But the fact that the German military science has gone much forward in its time is an irrefutable fact


      OK - why did the megaindustrial Germany, whose industry was technologically much more developed than the Soviet one, relying on the resources of continental Europe did tanks many times less than the Christian Rasseya ??

      Shaw for bullshit? There are not enough tanks on the front - they are exclusive there - and Germany is developing science ...
      1. alicante11
        alicante11 15 December 2015 13: 40 New
        0
        Trite, it's like with a frog in boiling water. Our summers boiled the 41 in the boilers so much that the energy from the jumps sufficed until the 90's, when we had almost more tanks than all the potential and non-potential opponents. But the Germans quietly cooked and did not get rid of when it was necessary to completely reorient industry to war.
      2. Per se.
        Per se. 15 December 2015 13: 59 New
        0
        Quote: Olezhek
        Shaw for bullshit? There are not enough tanks on the front - they are exclusive there - and Germany is developing science ...
        At the end of the war, with an acute shortage of various resources, including workers in factories, with constant bombing of cities and factories of the Third Reich, it is hardly reasonable to demand from Germany an abundance of production. The Germans could already somehow be saved only by the quality, the fundamental novelty of technology (the developments from which both we and the Americans used after the war). Nevertheless, as you know, Hitler intended to end the war with the equipment with which he began, and, above all, until the very end of the war, with all the lack of equipment, the Germans managed to create a numerical advantage in organizing their counterattacks. Second, by the beginning of the war, the USSR had multiple superiority in tanks and aircraft, the mistake was not in the fact that instead of continuing riveting of old BT and T-26, they began to produce KV and T-34, but in the fact that the "old house" was dismantled, and the "new" post did not have time to start the war. It would be more useful if, during the transition to mechanized corps, they were created as new equipment arrived, without touching the old in divisions. They mixed everything together, so the problem arose. Now a similar situation, I see a plus in this article. If we re-arm ourselves with a new one, we should not repeat the mistakes of 1941, especially since the Soviet Union under Stalin had an incomparably higher potential than the current Russia of the oligarchs. Thanks to the Soviet safety margin, we still use it in the defense industry. As for the training of soldiers, it is necessary to teach how to fight with any weapon, anything can happen in life, and good training requires a high fighting spirit, good organization and interaction in the troops. This, however, is an axiom. For the rest, I am grateful for the article, although it turned out very "viteevato".
        1. Olezhek
          15 December 2015 18: 54 New
          +1
          At the end of the war, with an acute shortage of various resources, including workers in factories, with constant bombing of cities and factories of the Third Reich, it is hardly reasonable to demand from Germany an abundance in production.


          And in 41-42's ??
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 15 December 2015 19: 33 New
            0
            Quote: Olezhek
            And in 41-42's ??
            Oleg, during this period the Wehrmacht dominated. For us, it was the most dramatic period, the evacuated factories were just starting production, especially at the end of 1941, beginning of 1942. We had to replace the shortage of tanks with cavalry, and the holes were plugged by the production of light tanks, such as the T-60. During this period, Lend-Lease really helped us. As for the Fritzes, they reached the Volga by 1942, the Germans planned to go to the Caspian Sea, the seizure of our oil fields, which threatened the most dire consequences for our army. If we talk about the problems of the Germans, they began after their defeat at Stalingrad, then at Kursk. This, however, is well known, everything worsened by 1944, our exit to the borders of the USSR, and by that time Germany had lost a number of its allies, in particular Italy. Hitler was generated by the West, as an antipode of communism, as a counterbalance to the USSR, the fact that the Germans decided to attack the USSR was already an adventure, which, nevertheless, in any case should have weakened the Soviet Union. Now, despite the presence of a nuclear shield (again, thanks to Soviet achievements), capitalist Russia has a much more difficult position. Now, as "anti-Russia", they are preparing Dill and partly Turkey, the whole gang from Daesh and other scum, the Anglo-Saxons are faithful to their favorite tactics, plus new technologies in various economic and political sabotage and sabotage within Russia itself. If the followers of Serdyukov's team start a global rearmament on their crude and expensive "platforms", destroying the well-functioning production of equipment and old stocks, it will be worse than the formation of mechanized corps. I will not repeat myself, if you are interested in my opinion on this, look at my publication on the topic of platforms. Agree or not, your business.
            1. tropic
              tropic 15 December 2015 19: 43 New
              -1
              Quote: Per se.
              Hitler was born of the West as the antipode of communism, as a counterweight to the USSR

              You know how to make fun. Who in the early 30s of the last century were interested in the USSR? It was an ordinary half-starved awkward dwarf. No one is interesting at all.
              Quote: Per se.
              in capitalist Russia

              Dear, before the "capitalist", Russia is still growing and growing. To begin with, it is necessary to rebuild developed feudalism. And then think about capitalism.
              Quote: Per se.
              Now, as "anti-Russia", they are preparing Dill and partly Turkey, the Anglo-Saxons are faithful to their favorite tactics.

              "Enemies are all around." "The country is surrounded by the enemy." Somewhere and once I have heard such rhetoric.
  • The black
    The black 15 December 2015 11: 49 New
    +5
    In principle, the author is right. To win a modern war, the courage and endurance of soldiers is not enough (the Syrian army is an example) Modern armaments and equipment plus the economic power of the state are needed.
    1. Boos
      Boos 15 December 2015 11: 52 New
      +4
      Create, arm and effectively manage. What are individuals capable of the scale of Stalin.
      1. Aleksey_K
        Aleksey_K 15 December 2015 12: 33 New
        +1
        Quote: Boos
        Create, arm and effectively manage. What are individuals capable of the scale of Stalin.

        Did you ask this question or is the statement of fact incorrect in Russian - the ability of Stalin to control the armed forces?
    2. jan
      jan 15 December 2015 12: 30 New
      -1
      And New Russia is not an example for you?
    3. Corsair0304
      Corsair0304 15 December 2015 12: 52 New
      0
      Quote: Black
      For the victory in a modern war, the courage and endurance of soldiers is not enough


      By the time the war began, the aircraft was considered obsolete, but at the same time, much in the battle depended on the training and skill of the pilots. For example, fighter pilot Ivan Kalabushkin shot down two Ju-153A bombers, one He-88 and two Bf-111E fighters on the I-2 on the first day of the war.
    4. ism_ek
      ism_ek 15 December 2015 14: 22 New
      0
      Quote: Black
      In principle, the author is right. To win a modern war, the courage and endurance of soldiers is not enough (the Syrian army is an example) Modern armaments and equipment plus the economic power of the state are needed.

      Syria is an anti-example. The Syrian army has modern weapons and economic power. But there is no courage and perseverance. There are several elite units there, everything else can be called an army with a big stretch. During the war years, Assad’s army decreased by more than two times.
  • Wolka
    Wolka 15 December 2015 11: 50 New
    +1
    the article is a reason for discussion, but today this subject is no longer so relevant, and history does not know the subjunctive moods that existed, there were reasons for this, both objective and subjective, whether it is worth sprinkling saliva and tearing the heart about what has already happened ...
  • bad
    bad 15 December 2015 11: 51 New
    +2
    Yes, the Americans won the war,
    ..nothing happened to history with the incident? .. and our grandfathers in the Great Patriotic War came out like that ... on the sidelines smoked?! .. you need to be more careful in the statements .. like a trifle, yes? .. but it’s unpleasant .. negative everything is muddy somehow ..
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 12: 18 New
      +1
      You at least read the first paragraph, be affectionate.
    2. Aleksey_K
      Aleksey_K 15 December 2015 12: 56 New
      0
      Quote: bad
      Yes, the Americans won the war,
      ..nothing happened to history with the incident? .. and our grandfathers in the Great Patriotic War came out like that ... on the sidelines smoked?! .. you need to be more careful in the statements .. like a trifle, yes? .. but it’s unpleasant .. negative everything is muddy somehow ..

      You superficially read the text of the article and tear out individual words, turning over the whole meaning. Are you deliberately twisting it? It is only about the war in the Pacific. This war was won by the Americans. We didn't fight in the Pacific at all. Soviet troops defeated the Japanese in China and Korea. All other countries in the Pacific were liberated by the Americans. It is not for nothing that Japan's surrender was on the American battleship Missouri.
    3. alicante11
      alicante11 15 December 2015 13: 43 New
      0
      ..have nothing to be wrong with history?


      It's about the war on THAT. Ours, of course, intervened and did not allow the Japanese to get rid of in full during the defense of Japan itself, and the Amers to genocide annoying islanders. But the Americans broke the ridge of the samurai, there's nothing to be done about it. Although, on the other hand, with such a difference in industrial potential, this is not a special achievement either.
      1. Condor-a
        Condor-a 15 December 2015 13: 53 New
        -3
        What did they break them there? Do not confuse anything? If you only deprived them of their conquests (and not in China) and access to oil for maintenance, from which the war began. If not for the USSR, Japan would respond to WMD in the USA.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 15 December 2015 11: 51 New
    +1
    Undoubtedly, the preparation and training of the army is very important, and with approximately equal capabilities of the technique of victory, the one who is better prepared will win.
  • AID.S
    AID.S 15 December 2015 11: 52 New
    +2
    Who is Oleg Egorov talking to?
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 12: 20 New
      -1
      With the shadows of Guderian and Galland belay
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 15 December 2015 13: 17 New
        +1
        Quote: Olezhek
        With the shadows of Guderian and Galland

        Rather, with the shadow of Eshonnek.
        I met information that the NGSH backlash shot himself after he got acquainted with the information about the pace of training of flight personnel, losses of pilots and forecasts for the coming year. "On the squadron - a pair of aces, the rest - green meat".
        1. Olezhek
          15 December 2015 14: 01 New
          0
          Rather, with the shadow of Yeshonneka


          According to Milch, in the left suicide note, Yeshonnek demanded that Goering not attend his funeral.
  • rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 15 December 2015 11: 58 New
    +5
    The author wants to say that no matter how super weapons he always has flaws that are compensated by well-trained specialists using this technique and using new tactics.
    So this is an axiom.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 15 December 2015 12: 01 New
    +6
    Pretty messy article. About everything at once ...

    What is the mobilization potential in the country? In 1939
    in Germany it was huge (including Austria, Sudeten Germans, Alsace),
    therefore, it was possible to win due to advanced tactics without spending money on development
    new technology.
    In 1943, manpower was depleted until the day - zero reserves. Had to go
    on the latest developments in order to try to compensate for the shortage of pilots, tankers,
    trained infantry firepower.
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 12: 15 New
      +1
      In 1939 year
      Germany was huge (including Austria, Sudeten Germans, Alsace)

      In principle, the Anglo-French no less. But the war went very quickly in the West.
      His - the potential is not used neither one nor the other
      In Russia, German soldiers (and tanks) were not enough already in 1941 m - it was the lack of numbers (lack of reserves) that prevented Moscow from being captured.

      lack of pilots, tankers,

      Pilots and tank crews (precisely those who fly and fight on a tank) - in general, the piece goods (especially the Germans)
      the issue is in timely preparation and not in reserves
    2. ism_ek
      ism_ek 15 December 2015 14: 29 New
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      What is the mobilization potential in the country? In 1939
      in Germany it was huge (including Austria, Sudeten Germans, Alsace),
      therefore, it was possible to win due to advanced tactics without spending money on development
      new technology.
      In 1943, manpower was depleted until the day - zero reserves. Had to go
      on the latest developments in order to try to compensate for the shortage of pilots, tankers,
      trained infantry firepower.

      in 1941, the USSR took a different path. The cost of the T-34 during the war years was halved. Soviet fighter, cost ten times less than the American. On average, the USSR spent half the material and human resources on the production of military equipment.
      1. tropic
        tropic 15 December 2015 17: 43 New
        0
        Quote: ism_ek
        On average, the USSR spent half the material and human resources on the production of military equipment.

        In the end, he just spent human resources more. But not for production.
  • Riv
    Riv 15 December 2015 12: 04 New
    +3
    There was nothing so fabulous either in "Zero" or in "Messer". In general, it is not equipment that is fighting, but people, and it is not planes that are shot down, but pilots. Those interested can google the memoirs of Sakai ("Samurai") and evaluate the pre-war training system for Japanese pilots.

    "... The instructor randomly selected two cadets from the group and ordered them to fight. The winner was leaving the carpet.
    His opponent, who lost the fight, was less fortunate. He stayed on the carpet and had to fight another cadet. While he lost, he remained on the carpet, exhausted to the limit, beaten and rumpled. This often resulted in serious damage. Otherwise, he had to take turns fighting all the other 69 cadets in our class. If after the end of 69 fights he could still stand on his feet, then he received a pardon. But only for one day. The next day, he again had to fight the first enemy, and so on. This continued until he won the victory, or he was expelled from school ... "

    Or sailors:

    "... Every career soldier of the Imperial Navy had to be able to swim. Among us there were many cadets who grew up in mountainous areas and never swam at all. The teaching method was extremely simple. The cadet was tied with a rope under his armpits and dragged out to sea where he could Or drown. Today, when I was 39 years old, and shell fragments are sitting in my body, I can still swim 50 meters in 34 seconds. In flight school, many people could swim this distance in less than 30 seconds ... "

    When Sakai alone had to fight with fifteen American fighters, he hardly thought about the technical characteristics of his fighter.
    1. Corsair0304
      Corsair0304 15 December 2015 12: 46 New
      +3
      Quote: Riv
      If after the end of 69 fights he could still stand on his own, he received a pardon. But just for one day. The next day, he again had to fight the first enemy, and so on.


      A typical Japanese approach to learning. Dead end, by the way. It’s better to prepare 60 middle peasants or 40 good guys out of a hundred than 10 super-duper pilots who can be shot down by an anti-aircraft gunner on a cruiser.
      1. Riv
        Riv 15 December 2015 13: 51 New
        -1
        Sakai was never shot down. But it's not that. As Aleksandr Vasilievich said: "They fight not by number, but by skill." The Americans had to gain experience for the Hurricanes and Corsairs to start winning battles.
  • iouris
    iouris 15 December 2015 12: 05 New
    +3
    Yes and no. The central problem is indicated correctly: the criterion is combat effectiveness, i.e. correlation between a given effect and resource costs. The new military equipment adopted for service should exceed the previous generation by at least 1,5-2 times.
    It is necessary to take into account not only the desired effect, but also combat losses, the expenditure of time and basic resources by types, the quality of personnel and the ability to master new equipment by personnel.
    For example: in the US Air Force in 1950, when creating a new aircraft, very specific strict requirements for reliability (in particular, for operational manufacturability) began to be imposed, which became a more significant factor than, for example, flight speed.
    If the complication of traditional mechanical systems led to difficulties in mastering, then modern robotic systems are mastered faster. How this affects efficiency is understandable.
    If tomorrow is war, then the production strategy is one. If there is no threat of war, then promising technologies must be promoted. In addition, the military-industrial complex is the engine of technological progress throughout the economy. Inhibition of the defense industry's progress slows down the entire economy.
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 12: 34 New
      -1
      If tomorrow is war, then the production strategy is the same. If there is no threat of war, then promising technologies must be promoted.


      Colleague: Hitler had a war today. yes and the Big War ...
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 15 December 2015 12: 09 New
    +5
    Allegedly, the Americans, having captured one instance in Alaska, rushed to research and design it, based on the test results, got their "antizero".

    Supposedly is an absolutely accurate word.
    For in August 1942, when the "Aleutian zero" fell into the hands of the Yankees, tests of the first experienced "Hellcats" - "Zero killers" were already in full swing. And its design did not change, moreover, instead of lightening the design, the Yankees simply installed a more powerful engine. But they left the "scales" (the fastening of 2,6 mm fuselage skin sheets overlapped (!)).
    The value of the "Aleutian gift" was different - after its restoration in September 1942, the Yankees were able to study in practice the real performance characteristics and features of piloting the "zero" and develop recommendations on tactics for dealing with it for combat pilots on serial machines.
    All pilots dispatched to combat areas where the Zero is expected to be present should be instructed to:
    1. Never attempt to engage in a dogfight with a Zero
    2. Never attempt to maneuver with the Zero at speeds below three hundred (300) miles per hour on the speedometer [483 km / h], unless you are behind it.
    3. Never chase the Zero vertically at low speeds. (Armed aircraft may start stalling at high angles, while the Zero will only reach the most favorable speed for maneuvering. Here it has the opportunity to complete the loop with an exit to attack from the rear quarter)

    The most important features that should be taken into account when developing successful counter tactics for the Zero are its insufficient roll rate at high speeds and its engine failures under negative overload conditions [the result of using a float carburetor and, at the same time, an explanation of the "slide effect"].

    Large ailerons provide the aircraft with high maneuverability at speeds of up to three hundred (300) miles per hour on the speedometer. At speeds above three hundred (300) miles per hour on the speedometer, it becomes almost impossible to change the direction of the turn.

    The Zero pivot speed from right to left is much higher than from left to right.

    Did these recommendations help? And how!
    From the information received thanks to the “Zero” Kogi, I knew that in the right turn “Zero” is slower than in the left one. If I did not know this, I could turn to the left. In this case, “Zero” would most likely stay on my tail, take it in the sight and make me. I used this technique several times to break away from Zero
    (c) Marine Captain Kenneth A. Walsh
    All quotes are from LJ SW. midnike: "Midway Myths: Aleutian Zero."
  • Velizariy
    Velizariy 15 December 2015 12: 10 New
    0
    The author threw a beech in a puddle, excuse me, for example ... l)
    Yes! And the "Panther" is exactly what they actively tried to replace the Pz IV. And new equipment was put into operation quite a bit, only our industry was not asleep and the troops were actively advancing the recent respite of the enemy's industry, and in addition to industry, ours trained in huge numbers new cadres (the same pilots), and the Germans on new, truly good aircraft, there was no one to fly, they were transferring bombers to fighters. The "hitch" in the training of reserve personnel and the replenishment of the flight personnel had a critical impact on the Luftwaffe, which decided to cover the front sector simply by transferring from another sector with the "exposure" of that sector.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 15 December 2015 13: 11 New
      +1
      Quote: Velizariy
      Yes! And the "Panther" is exactly what they actively tried to replace the Pz IV.

      In fact, the "panther" was originally going to replace both "four" and "three". The Germans, having spent time with a zoo of tanks in tank battalions, wanted a single ST. But in fact, "panther" has become a replacement only for "three".

      The reason is simple: the initial plans were based on the fact that in 1942 everything would be over in the East, and the army and industry in relatively calm conditions would set up a series and rearmament. Reality made its own adjustments - and it turned out that in the conditions of the war in the East and the constant demands of the Panzerwaffe "tanks, tanks, even more tanks"It is impossible to stop the production of" fours "for six months. Why such a timeframe? And then a standard problem emerged (which the USSR later faced) - the developer of the" panther "made it" for himself. "As a result, the factories-producers of" three-ruble "switched to" panther "is much faster and easier than the factories that produced" fours ".
      And in the yard was the end of 1942 and the first half of 1943 - Stalingrad and the Citadel. At such a time, it was absolutely unthinkable to cut tank supplies by half and be left without the "fours" for the time of the transition to the "panthers" - especially since the "four" was much more reliable than the raw "cat".
      As a result, the "Panther" has changed in production only "three". And the "fours" remained in the series and in parts. The dream of a single Panzerwaffe medium tank remained a dream.
  • Leeder
    Leeder 15 December 2015 12: 15 New
    +1
    Even if by the beginning of the war it had been possible to rearm this same aircraft, for example, completely from I-16 to Yak-1, it would hardly have solved the problem of the struggle for air superiority.

    I will say more, even if we had jet planes at 41, this would not have saved the situation. Well, yes, nothing could have been done to them in the sky, they would have burned everyone in packs, but as soon as they got to the airfield, they would be rolled out in tanks or bombed, due to the lack of fuel and ammunition ...
  • uragan114
    uragan114 15 December 2015 12: 21 New
    +2
    Chaotic article.
  • ARES623
    ARES623 15 December 2015 12: 21 New
    0
    Let's start with trams. How many factories in the USSR produced these products? Nearby Verkhniy Ufaley made quite tolerable wagons. Invest some money there and get what you ask for in accordance with the level of design and production capacity of the plant. “But mostly old Czechs are running around the streets of the city.”, Because the money was laundered in huge quantities on the purchase of imported cars. How long have we "not been friends" with the Poles, but Moscow until 2013 tried (maybe it did) with the approval of Mayor Sobyanin to order these trams for the Poles. Looks like something is smeared there, which our tram industry cannot offer Muscovites. But even then we were under pressure from the EU and in "deep contradiction" with Poland.
    Now for the essence of the article. Deep theorizing about nothing. What comes first - an intelligent soldier or a "wunderwaffle"? Or when this "waffle" becomes a "wunder" - the first or the polished 1000th? Life solves all these problems in practice. Weapons appear, first "raw", then modified, in parallel with its finalization, the skills of its use are growing. And the main thing here is to maintain a balance of novelty and mastery. Whoever comes up with a new one earlier, saturates the troops with it and trains the personnel, will be closer to the Reichstag. But it must be fate that the war is won not only by the "best" and "sophisticated", but also by the most "motivated". The Afghans have "no equipment" at all, but the most "sophisticated" cannot do anything. The dispute is eternal, like life itself. There are no right ...
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 12: 28 New
      +1
      What comes first - an intelligent soldier or a "wunderwaffle"? Or when this waffle becomes a wunder


      In 1943-45 Hitler spent a lot of resources on a variety of "wunderwales"
      Recoil?
      But there is something in the books with color pictures show.
      During WWII, mass production of simple, cheap and technological weapons was needed.
      1. alicante11
        alicante11 15 December 2015 13: 54 New
        -1
        In 1943-45 Hitler spent a lot of resources on a variety of "wunderwales"
        Recoil?


        And I'm not sure that these resources were critical. Well, if instead of 2,5tys of tigers and panthers, they would release 5-6tys T-4. Would it save the fascists? On the one hand, they could deploy and replenish a couple of TDs, and on the other, 34s 85s would take them down faster and PTO RKKA would be easier. And not so much is spent on researching resources, as on mass production.
  • smith7
    smith7 15 December 2015 12: 23 New
    -1
    An excellent conclusion to the article. Correct. Know-how and modern technologies are important, but the first fiddle in the victory over the enemy is played by the organization of management and the availability of resources in all directions.
  • mpzss
    mpzss 15 December 2015 12: 30 New
    -2
    ! sure minus!
    And about "backward Russia", this is at least in cultural words - too much!
  • Ivan Tucha
    Ivan Tucha 15 December 2015 12: 39 New
    +1
    pounded the author for nothing). But among this pile of words there is one most correct message - a trained, organized, competently controlled army. and if these factors coincide (and for this now, as we observe, teachings follow exercises, including on new equipment, because one must be able to use it), then it will be possible to successfully fight on the "outdated" 72s, and 29- e MiGs will still show themselves, etc., etc.
    and you caught on to the phrase "obsolete Russia" and kaptets, your eyes flooded.
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 15 December 2015 13: 57 New
      +1
      and on the "outdated" 72s it will be possible to fight successfully


      Of course, if you cover them from the air, accompany the self-propelled guns and MLRS, and, of course, infantry in armored vehicles. And without all this, Armata will be knocked out one by one, like a HF from 8-8.

      and 29 MiGs still show themselves


      Naturally, if there is a normal guidance from the ground, and even better, from an AWACS aircraft. And without this, I'm afraid the T-50 will be shot as in a parade.
  • Corsair0304
    Corsair0304 15 December 2015 12: 42 New
    0
    In my opinion, the article is more than controversial.
    Of course, the Great Patriotic War was won by the mass character in its further development - the training of fighters, pilots and sailors. Not without reason, after 1942, the front began to massively recall the "marines" previously sent to the ground from warships. The training period for infantry was increased, and even more for fighter pilots. Yes, initially it was "take off and landing", "hold on to the tail of the leader", but in 1944 - absolutely not so.
    But! If everything was decided for a mass set, then why then did our design bureaus create such legends as the Yak-9, La-5, La-7 ?? !! Yes, and therefore created to withstand the Me-109, Me-110, FV-190.
  • Razvedka_Boem
    Razvedka_Boem 15 December 2015 12: 47 New
    +1
    The title of the article is loud, but the output is just emotions and zilch .. I just want to say - UzBaGoEtS.
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 12: 55 New
      0
      Loud article title


      it was irony. laughing
  • Mercenary
    Mercenary 15 December 2015 12: 48 New
    -1
    "Yes, the Americans won the war,"
    Oleg, the Great Patriotic War was won by the Soviet Union !!!
    1. Ivan Tucha
      Ivan Tucha 15 December 2015 12: 52 New
      +3
      It’s not about the Second World War, but about the Pacific Company, specifically. read carefully hi
      1. alicante11
        alicante11 15 December 2015 13: 58 New
        +1
        Chukchi is not a reader, Chukchi is a writer ... (minus is not mine).
    2. tropic
      tropic 15 December 2015 17: 56 New
      0
      Quote: Mercenary
      The Great Patriotic War was won by the Soviet Union

      WWII was only part of 2MB. Moreover, the British, to put it mildly, did not win it either. But in general, Americans won 2MV. To argue with this is at least strange.
      1. Condor-a
        Condor-a 15 December 2015 18: 05 New
        0
        they didn’t win it, they played it
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 15 December 2015 12: 56 New
    -1
    Towards the end of the war, all the belligerent powers found out that training pilots and tankers was more complicated and longer than producing aircraft and tanks.

    Not all ... some people in 1945 "filled up with meat".
    As the saying goes, guess the country by quote: wink
    Of the *** tank regiment, 17 tankers were sent to us with limited combat experience - they themselves arrived only a few days ago to make up for the losses. 35 more guys were sent from the personnel department, who had just left *** s *** a few hours ago and still had not received any instruction. We asked how many of them had dealt with tanks before, it turned out that no one. Most of them were not like they had never been in a tank - they did not even see the tank near!
    We selected 34 people and divided them into 17 pairs. Each couple, together with the driver, constituted the minimum crew. We conducted a brief briefing on the topic “what is a tank”, showed everyone the basic details of the machine, a machine gun and boxes with shells. The tanks were already refueled, oiled and ready to move. Several mechanics drove the cars to the edge of the field and, turning the towers to the sides, loaded the guns with armor-piercing shells so that there were no fragments. Each tankman was given three shots from a turret gun (all the beginners had basic training, so they were already familiar with machine guns). There was no time left for further training before the messengers from the *** regiment divorced the newcomers into units. It was three in the afternoon.
    When at about seven o’clock in the evening I arrived at the location of the tank’s ***, I discovered that out of 17 replenishment vehicles, 15 were hit and destroyed along the way. I could not find out how many people survived from the crews and whether there were survivors at all. Alas, such a tragedy was to be repeated more than once
  • kapitan92
    kapitan92 15 December 2015 13: 03 New
    +6
    The article is really "empty", BUT, there is one thing that the author put into the expression "backward Russia" !?
    With what weapons the ground army of the Russian Empire entered the 1st World War: Tanks were absent, and what tanks were not available for their cars, there were no automatic weapons except for units. number of licensed samples, aviation was absent (units are not counted), dear three-ruler, three-inch, reel and skating rink, but I also forgot about windings because there were not enough boots. There was a shortage of ammunition throughout the duration of the hostilities. Incompetence of the bid and the supreme, and sometimes betrayal of Art. officers.
    Things were better in the navy: an excellent series of Novik-class destroyers, several modern battleships, and most importantly, good training of the naval personnel. The command of the fleet was much more literate (tactically) than the command of the ground forces.
    I do not draw conclusions, but the foregoing is obvious!
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 13: 15 New
      -1
      With what weapons did the land army of the Russian Empire enter the 1 World War II: There were no tanks,


      Who had the tanks in August 1914 and what were they called?
    2. tropic
      tropic 15 December 2015 18: 01 New
      0
      Quote: kapitan92
      several modern battleships, and most importantly a good preparation of the personnel of the fleet. The command of the fleet was more literate (tactfully) than the command of the ground forces.

      Yes? And can you list these very ships? And can you give examples of "brilliant naval command"?
      The surface fleet, at all times of the existence of Russia and the USSR, was its weak link. Extra link. They invested a lot of money there. But it would be better if the stove was heated with banknotes. It would be more profitable.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 16 December 2015 12: 10 New
      0
      Quote: kapitan92
      Things were better in the navy: an excellent series of Novik-class destroyers, several modern battleships, and most importantly, good training of the naval personnel.

      There was not a single modern battleship at the beginning of the WWII in the RIF.
      Alas, but Russia we lost even 7 peaceful years were not enough for the construction of the first generation battleships. That was such a dynamically developing industry, that’s how efficiently (and most importantly - quickly) decisions were made in the Naval Ministry and other authorities. smile

      At the beginning of the war, the Rurik KR was the flagship of the BF. The BF also included the only new one - the Novik EM.
  • individual
    individual 15 December 2015 13: 09 New
    0
    The guarantee of victory is not only the latest military equipment, the reliability of the rear, the skill of the army, but also the ideological motivation of the personnel.
  • gozmosZh
    gozmosZh 15 December 2015 13: 21 New
    0
    mixed everything in the article. horses, people. cook pancake.
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 15 December 2015 13: 25 New
    0
    The balance, of course, should be - between a qualitatively new technique and the amount in which it can / should be released. There is nothing new here. Was there a mistake in the decision to produce the Tiger, Panther? Would it be sufficient to concentrate on the production of modernized T4, as suggested by Guderian? It is possible that not. Did the Germans need to invest a lot of effort and money in the Electrobot? Maybe better in anti-aircraft missiles Waterfall or Vau2? In any case, the Germans would lose - the material and technical resources, the human resources of the opposing countries were higher.
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 14: 06 New
      0
      In any case, the Germans would have lost - the material and technical resources, the human resources of the countries opposing them were higher.


      On this topic, this afftarr has already been trampled down.
      Hitler: Total War
  • Gato
    Gato 15 December 2015 13: 37 New
    +1
    Very controversial article, too many unnecessary emotions.
    Point by point:
    1. Zero - very light, without reservation (even without tank protection), with relatively weak weapons - because this is primarily a carrier-based fighter, and not a fighter escort for long-range bombers like the P-48. And Japan at that time was not too a technological power, spending 90% of its resources on the fleet.
    2. The first Bf.109 models in Spain did not show themselves in any way, besides they were significantly inferior in armament to the I-16
    3. Germany brought down about 7 thousand cruise missiles and about 2 thousand ballistic missiles on Britain. This is in the middle of the XNUMXth century! It is good that the Nazis did not manage to develop nuclear weapons and did not think of just a "dirty" bomb.
    4. If the Germans, instead of the FAU-1 and 2, would start building the Wasserfall air defense system? Would there be a lot of sense from the massive bombing of the Anglo-Americans?
    5. I am silent about the tanks, otherwise the WoT apologists will fly right now and grab the withers.
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 14: 08 New
      0
      The first models of Bf.109 in Spain did not show themselves almost no way

      ??
      Germany attacked about 7 thousand cruise and about 2 thousand ballistic missiles on Britain.

      What did it cost and what did it give militarily?
      If the Germans instead of the FAU-1 and 2 would begin to build the Wasserfall air defense system

      Aha !!
      1. Condor-a
        Condor-a 15 December 2015 14: 10 New
        -1
        The British were killed by conventional warheads more than in 1940, with almost zero losses for their pilots.
      2. Gato
        Gato 19 December 2015 11: 08 New
        0
        Quote: Olezhek
        The first models of Bf.109 in Spain did not show themselves almost no way

        ??
        Germany attacked about 7 thousand cruise and about 2 thousand ballistic missiles on Britain.

        What did it cost and what did it give militarily?
        If the Germans instead of the FAU-1 and 2 would begin to build the Wasserfall air defense system

        Aha !!

        Very logical and reasoned!
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 15 December 2015 14: 20 New
      +1
      Quote: Gato
      1. Zero - very light, without reservation (even without tank protection), with relatively weak weapons - because this is primarily a carrier-based fighter, and not a fighter escort for long-range bombers like the P-48.

      Not everything is so simple. (C)
      For the opponents of the "Zero" are Yankees with their 12,7 mm batteries and high survivability. And this had to be taken into account.
      And it turned out that the ease of construction of the Japanese made him vulnerable to just a few hits of bullets of these machine guns. And the weakness of the weapons (more precisely, the low ammunition of the gun) required frequent reloading of the ammunition. For the Yankees are guaranteed to be lost only by guns.
      Under Midway, for example, Nagumo was forced to tear down second-wave cover fighters for air defense of his AB - the planned CAP and scramble were too often forced to leave the battlefield and land on AB. And this is to reflect the uncoordinated Yankee raids that entered the battle sequentially and poetically. And if the Yankees repeated the Coral Sea - the simultaneous blow of torpedoes and dive-bombers?
      1. Gato
        Gato 19 December 2015 11: 19 New
        0
        Quote: Alexey RA
        in the opponents of the "Zero" - Yankee deck ships with their 12,7 mm batteries and high survivability

        What period of war are we talking about? Does the P-40 have a .50 caliber machine gun battery? Or are you talking about the F6F Hellcat, which mass production was just launched in the fall of 1942?
  • Zomanus
    Zomanus 15 December 2015 13: 39 New
    +3
    In short, the author meant that the weapon should be not only new, but also "warmed",
    that is, they knew how to deal with him this way and that in cooperation with various branches of the army and on different battlefields. What actually is sharpened in constant exercises and analysis of the data obtained during these exercises.
    1. Gato
      Gato 15 December 2015 13: 58 New
      0
      Quote: Zomanus
      In short, the author meant that the weapon should be not only new, but also "warmed",

      Naturally, the weapon has TACTICAL and technical characteristics - and under them this tactics must be managed to be sharpened. Otherwise, useless iron
  • igorra
    igorra 15 December 2015 14: 04 New
    0
    Quote: avg
    An article about the fact that the correct organization of the troops meeting modern requirements, their "sharpening" for precise interaction to fulfill the main task, along with high combat training, is more important than their saturation with various "wunderwaves".

    Here she is brevity, the sister of talent, and the author has piled, heaped.
  • Stirbjorn
    Stirbjorn 15 December 2015 14: 05 New
    +1
    By the way, Hitler likes to “kick” for inattention to jet aircraft. At the same time, none of the "pinners" does not analyze data on the effectiveness of the use of Me-262 fighters, for example. And this very efficiency somehow does not please the eye. The project “jet fighter” devoured a bunch of scarce resources, but he gave very little to the downed Allied aircraft. And by the way, jet fighters demanded very experienced pilots. At the output of this project in 44-45 issued aircraft with unsurpassed speed. The combat effectiveness of jet fighters? It is highly questionable at such costs. By the way, jet bombers showed themselves well (namely, they were demanded by Hitler).

    By the way, Galland, the commander of fighter aircraft, was of the opposite opinion. Jet bombers Me-262 did not show themselves in any way, because the imperfection of the then bombs did not allow them to accurately hit the target at great speed. But just the use of the Me-262, against the armada of strategic bombers of the allies, on the contrary, was correct. Because by the 44th year, the Americans had long-range cover fighters P-51, which seriously hampered the use of conventional fighters. And so the Me-262 burst into the ranks of American strategists at great speed, fired a salvo of missiles and just as quickly left. The Mustangs remained as spectators. A downed strategist is a much more delicious target than any regular aircraft. The Me-262 also put an end to the Mosquito, the Allied high-altitude high-speed reconnaissance aircraft, which piston fighters simply could not catch up with. But the whole sadness for the Germans was that the mass production of the Me-262 had already been launched when the war was already on the border of the Reich and there were no longer any safe airfields. Galland believed that because of Hitler, the Me-262 entered the army at least a year later. It would not have won the war, of course, but it would have significantly added losses to the allies and the war would have dragged on. hi
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 15 December 2015 14: 21 New
      -1
      The great joy was that only 1/5 of them flew due to lack of fuel.
  • tokens2
    tokens2 15 December 2015 14: 09 New
    +1
    And in World War I, backward Russia did not suffer from the absence of a “wunderwaffe”, but from a banal lack of shells for existing artillery systems.

    Well, not really like that.
    During active hostilities, the burden falls not only on industry, but also on the logistics network. The railways were the arteries of the PMV. The saturation of railway lines in Russia was extremely low. Germany, before engaging in WWI, created not only excellent industry, but also an excellent transport system. So traditional military factories deep in the rear of the Republic of Ingushetia became a weak link in providing the army.
    And from the lack of full-fledged heavy artillery, oddly enough.

    full-fledged heavy artillery appeared at the end of the war. In conditions of poor infrastructure and the choice of the place of the attack, it was after the Germans and not the Russians ... heavy artillery would be a needle in a haystack.
    You see, talking in a book / chapter about 1944 about the Me-109 and T IV is a little boring, so they begin to describe technical refinements. But at the same time they forget to mention how much resources were spent on these “delights”

    the Germans actually created successful types of weapons for the entire period of the fighting, and this is their success.
    Moreover, the effectiveness of aviation was achieved by preliminary reconnaissance. "Rama" was remembered for a long time by our soldiers. Each sortie in combination with performance characteristics of aircraft scattered across different airfields gave the desired effect.
    But the situation with tanks is not so simple. There was a whole caravan behind the Panzerwaffe tanks. From vehicles. It would be 3-5 times fewer trucks in the Wehrmacht’s tank division ... a blitzkrieg would hardly have taken place.
  • tasha
    tasha 15 December 2015 14: 49 New
    0
    The article is somewhat reminiscent of an episode from the movie "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". To the question asked about the meaning of life, the universe and, in general, the super-computer, after a long thought, gave the answer "47". The only pity is that there are no comments on the film, in which smart people explain what the super-computer meant. It's good that the article is there. smile
    In other words, the idea of ​​the need for a harmonious and comprehensive development of the armed forces was expressed repeatedly and without aspiration at the level of the press of the 90s "But you know it" ...
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 15 December 2015 15: 19 New
      0
      Quote: tasha
      To the question asked about the meaning of life, the universe and, in general, the super-computer, after long reflection, gave the answer "47"

      Forty two! am
      1. tasha
        tasha 15 December 2015 15: 22 New
        0
        This is in your 42 universe. And in others - 47!
        Are you sure that your messages reach the HE in the world in which you live? Maybe in which of the many parallel?
        As it was in the movie "Red Heat" with Stallone - "What is your evidence?" And Matroskin to him - "Here is the tail".

        Thank you for the amendment. It happens..
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 15 December 2015 16: 25 New
          +1
          Quote: tasha
          Are you sure that your messages reach the HE in the world in which you live? Maybe in which of the many parallel?

          Eh hehe ... I’m not at all sure that I am actually writing messages somewhere. Maybe I'm just sleeping, and I dream that I am writing messages in VO. what
  • Mr shrek
    Mr shrek 15 December 2015 15: 06 New
    +1
    The article is absolutely about nothing, the author does not steer in what he tried to write about. Stupid comparisons, stupid conjectures, the most important thing is the most stupid comparison of modifications. Bf109 and Bf190G are completely different planes, even constructively.
    1. Olezhek
      15 December 2015 15: 17 New
      -4
      Bfxnumxg


      Who is this?
  • tropic
    tropic 15 December 2015 15: 56 New
    +1
    Those same T IV, which were the best outside the USSR in 1941. They remained the basis of the Panzervaffe from the beginning to the end of the war.

    The statement is highly controversial. Favorites among the tanks were constantly changing. In addition, it is more appropriate to watch tanks by class. Because Before the T-VI, the Tiger was the absolute leader on the Eastern Front, KV-1.
    If we compare the T-34 objectively, then it would never be the strongest. At first, the strongest were the modifications of the T-III with a long barrel. And since the spring of 1942. and to the very end of the T-34 /76 these were already modifications of the T-IV.
    As for the T-34/85, by the time it appeared (1944), the TV Panther had already multiplied quite strongly. And they became the main Panzerwaffe tank. Yes, and the T-IV are no longer the same. It could well argue with the T-34/85.
    To say that it was 2 times more effective on the battlefield is quite difficult.

    It’s hard to count at times. But it was much more effective.
    For example, the “obsolete” Soviet cavalry divisions showed themselves very well in the Great Patriotic War (but it’s not customary to talk about it - junk s).

    Yes? Here is the news, so the news.
    1. tokens2
      tokens2 15 December 2015 16: 21 New
      -1
      For example, the “obsolete” Soviet cavalry divisions showed themselves very well in the Great Patriotic War (but it’s not customary to talk about it - junk s).

      By the way, yes.
      But only in winter.
      The winter of 1941 was very harsh. The advantage in technology was reduced to 0.
      Ah winter-winter. How much Russia owes its harsh climate.
      How many eared into the snowdrifts.
  • Signaller
    Signaller 15 December 2015 16: 48 New
    0
    I agree with the author of the article. Not in the characteristics of the essence, but in manufacturability. T34 during the war years released 52 thousand. Ttkoeh is 2-36 thousand. A Panther is only a few thousand. Yu-87-a good dive-waxer kopecks. It’s not guns-worse-better that make war. And the masses of these weapons are more-less .. So the same PPSh released 5 million, and MP 40 - just less than a million. ??? And How.???? -Yes Mauser rifle -the main weapon is much smaller than Mosinovskaya. And How????? Worse, better ???? More technologically advanced ........
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 15 December 2015 17: 23 New
      -1
      Almost 6 thousand, and they destroyed the T-34ki at least 1 to 5. They were a more dangerous tank than the Tiger-1,2
      Panther is a very technological tank, and at the same time high-quality. Tigers after the Second World War were not used anywhere, there were Panthers.
      Yu-87 is one of the links that provided blitzkrieg, almost on a par with armored personnel carriers, which were not at all in the Red Army in the Second World War, because of which the Soviet infantry was destroyed by mortar fragments, and it climbed onto the armor of tanks, which is a group target for rifle and machine guns, only just to quickly pass the mortar shelling zone.
      SVT released 1,5 million, but almost all of them went to the Germans. Stalin was not when he talked about the "weapons of gangsters" - having so many much better SVT, PPs were not particularly needed. But at the expense of the armored personnel carrier, he did not keep track of, as did Beria at the expense of the betrayal of the Western Front.
      1. Olezhek
        15 December 2015 18: 50 New
        -1
        Total almost 6s, and they exterminated T-34ki no less than 1 to 5


        And then - the superiority of the "superior race" over the Untermensch affected ...
        It came to 1 to 10 or even 20 ..
        But then Goebbels broke a typewriter and Berlin was lost forever ...
        1. Condor-a
          Condor-a 15 December 2015 19: 22 New
          0
          Yes, with almost 6 thousand panthers and more than 52 thousand issued T-34s in wartime.
          It used to be 1 to 10
          What if the cannon had four times better armor penetration when booking at the level of Is-2?
          But they are such Russian women - they even give birth.
          And why did the Red Army during the Second World War did not have a single armored personnel carrier? Not so that even they could not cope?
  • Former battalion commander
    Former battalion commander 15 December 2015 17: 29 New
    0
    The empty article! All that is missing is snot on the cheeks from tenderness from ME-109 or even funnier from zero ...
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 15 December 2015 19: 28 New
      0
      crying crying crying
      And caps were thrown into the air. The FW-190 was more dangerous.
      YES AT ALL, jet aviation is important, and the intelligentsia is its brain ... repeat
  • Calter
    Calter 15 December 2015 19: 46 New
    0
    Quote: Condor-A
    Quote: excomandante
    Population growth has nothing to do with "prosperity".

    What kind of insanity? )))))))

    It is connected of course, but not in the way it is commonly believed. We got maternal capital for our second child (about half of the minister’s monthly salary, if I’m not mistaken), but the baby boom didn’t happen.
  • Lord of Wrath
    Lord of Wrath 15 December 2015 21: 34 New
    -1
    Article is nonsense. And really, just "about nothing"
  • Ukropus
    Ukropus 15 December 2015 22: 39 New
    -1
    Quote: Condor-A
    Yes, with almost 6 thousand panthers and more than 52 thousand issued T-34s in wartime.
    It used to be 1 to 10
    What if the cannon had four times better armor penetration when booking at the level of Is-2?
    But they are such Russian women - they even give birth.
    And why did the Red Army during the Second World War did not have a single armored personnel carrier? Not so that even they could not cope?

    There were t-34/76 and two CTs humiliated.
    And if you believe all sorts of Carriuses, then 2 tons of 6 in one battle destroyed about 20 tanks IP. And Rudel personally did 500 tanks himself ... such things.
    But this is not about that. Give the proof a 4-fold advantage in the armor-piercing ability of 7,5 cm kwk42 shells, even L / 70, indicating the distance and type of projectile. In the worst case, the D25t with a br471 projectile and an angle of 60 degrees has an armor penetration of 500 mm per 122 m (471b to 155 mm). At the same time, the armor penetration of the Panzergranate 40/42 at a range of 500m-174 (panzergranate 39/42 - 124mm) ... where is it at times? And about the women, I agree. But so for centuries it happened here. Mentality.
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 16 December 2015 02: 01 New
      0
      Quote: Ukropus
      But this is not about that. Give proof a 4-fold advantage in the armor-piercing ability of 7,5 cm shells kwk42

      Let’s you find him yourself? Muzzle velocities of armor-piercing shells compare for a start.
  • Ukropus
    Ukropus 16 December 2015 07: 54 New
    -1
    Quote: Condor-A
    Quote: Ukropus
    But this is not about that. Give proof a 4-fold advantage in the armor-piercing ability of 7,5 cm shells kwk42

    Let’s you find him yourself? Muzzle velocities of armor-piercing shells compare for a start.

    800 br (projectile weight 25 kg) and 925 pg39 / 42 (projectile mass-7,2), pg 40 / 42-1120 (4,25 kg) (this sub-caliber projectile was produced in scanty amounts of 300 8 months). Energy does not differ many times, if physics is taken into account, and not a fap on van der wafer. 471 MJ (br 2.21) vs 40 MJ (pg 42/500). Penetration at distances from 5 m to percent in the range of 10-XNUMX%. where at times? drain is counted.
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 16 December 2015 14: 32 New
      0
      Kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the speed, and the pressure on the armor does not depend on its area.
      Quote: Ukropus
      drain is counted.

      Pesci escho on the walls of the toilet.
      1. tropic
        tropic 16 December 2015 16: 30 New
        0
        Quote: Condor-A
        and the pressure on the armor does not depend on its area.

        In the arms industry, the term "penetration" is used, not pressure. This ability is inversely proportional to the caliber of the projectile. That is, the smaller the caliber, the greater the penetrating power, other things being equal.
        1. Condor-a
          Condor-a 17 December 2015 01: 08 New
          0
          Pressure as a term is used in physics, from which engineering is already growing, it is a quantity already reduced to a unit of area, penetrating ability - to lengthen a projectile.
          1. tropic
            tropic 17 December 2015 01: 18 New
            0
            Quote: Condor-A
            penetration - to lengthen the projectile.

            Charming. Do not waste time. Take a dissertation right away. The Shnobel Prize awaits.
            1. Condor-a
              Condor-a 17 December 2015 01: 26 New
              0
              You already have both along the way ...
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • Ukropus
    Ukropus 16 December 2015 08: 33 New
    -1
    Quote: Ukropus
    Energy is different at times

    More precisely at times, but not toward panzergranate.
    In general, 122 mm guns of the USSR did not have submunitions. Their characteristics were enough to effectively deal with enemy armored vehicles. Another thing is the rate of fire and primitiveness of the aiming equipment.
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 16 December 2015 14: 17 New
      0
      The German had better. Panther Weapon is the forerunner of BOPS.
  • Taoist
    Taoist 16 December 2015 10: 40 New
    0
    The Wunderwaffel doesn't exist, in principle. But also not to take into account the progress in military affairs "polishing to an unimaginable brilliance" combat training and the use of existing weapons, too, to put it mildly, prudently ... No one could use a bayonet better than Russian soldiers. But in the Crimean War, the issue was still decided by the presence of rifled weapons. It is dangerous to ignore the qualitative leap in armaments. If only because the tactics are also changing and it may turn out that tactical techniques that worked perfectly with the "old weapon" are completely untenable when a new one appears. The attacking columns disappeared into oblivion when rapid-fire rifles and guns appeared ...
    And with Zero, it's not that simple either. Japan compensated for the rather weak technique with excellent training. In Tiutir, carrier-based aviation pilots were trained for 6 years and longer ... But even super aces die ... In the end? Building a new plane is much easier and faster than preparing a pilot for it. By the way, Germany came to the same rake trying to compensate for quantitative failures by training and "wunderwaves".
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 16 December 2015 14: 27 New
      0
      How vigorous is the wunderwafel’s loaf (the professor spied on the Germans before going to Aliyah in the USA, then wrote letters to the UN and the American president), but how is the jet messer and V-2 not? wassat
  • Ukropus
    Ukropus 16 December 2015 17: 26 New
    0
    Quote: Condor-A
    pressure on the armor does not depend on its area.

    Have I affirmed the opposite somewhere? imagine numbers about times, not abstract outpourings ...
    1. Condor-a
      Condor-a 17 December 2015 01: 01 New
      0
      Count the kinetic energy per unit area, and consider the type of projectile, like the guns, as well as its material.
      1. Ukropus
        Ukropus 17 December 2015 15: 20 New
        -2
        Everything is clear with you ... warm with soft.
        The actual armor penetration (measured at test ranges) is practically equivalent (in mm of armor pierced)! but efficiency, incl. per unit of caliber / mass of the pzgd 40/42 projectile in the kwk42 is significantly higher than that of all Soviet tank guns of 1943-1945. The panther cannon won due to its accuracy and rate of fire - that's undeniable. To make holes in the T-34, the "short-barreled" kwk40 was more than enough.
        1. Condor-a
          Condor-a 17 December 2015 16: 03 New
          0
          All clear with you. The Panther gun-projectile system is a harbinger of BOPS. Something remotely similar at that time was only among the British.