Military Review

The first Russian machine: automatic Fedorov

105
The Fedorov machine gun, also known as the Fedorov automatic rifle, is the Russian 2,5-linear automatic rifle (6,5 mm), which was created by the captain of the Russian army Vladimir Grigorievich Fedorov in 1913-1916. In fact, it was the first machine that was created in Russia. Weapon had limited use, however, having managed to participate in the Winter War with Finland. Automatic Fedorov became the forerunner of modern infantry automatic weapons.


Captain of the Russian Imperial Army, Vladimir Fedorov, began work on creating a self-loading rifle in 1906. His first rifle was created under the standard for Russia cartridge of the famous trilinea - 7,62x54R and equipped with a magazine designed for 5 cartridges. The tests of this self-loading rifle were carried out in the 1911 year, and in the 1912 year, it was even decided to order an experimental batch of weapons - 150 rifles, which were planned to be sent to military trials.

The troop tests of the Fyodorov self-loading rifle were successful, but it never entered service. The rifle he created weighed 600 grams more than the three-line, and the capacity of her magazine remained the same as that of the Mosin rifle. In this case, all attempts to reduce the weight of the rifle led to a decrease in the strength of its design and reliability. Therefore, Fedorov just continued to work, but already on the creation of a new weapon, this time under his own cartridge, of a smaller caliber, which also had to solve the problem with the weight of the weapon.



Fedorov chose a 6,5-mm cartridge for his automatic rifle. This cartridge had a pointed bullet caliber 6,5 mm, which weighed 8,5 grams, as well as a sleeve-shaped bottle without a protruding lip. The initial flight speed of such a bullet was at the level of 850 m / s, which provided muzzle energy at the level of 3100 J. For example, for the 7,62х54R rifle cartridge, the muzzle energy was JNUMX-3600 J depending on the equipment variant. From the presented characteristics, we can conclude that the cartridge created by Fedorov was not “intermediate” in the modern sense - it was a fully-fledged rifle cartridge of reduced caliber (for comparison: the muzzle energy of the intermediate cartridge 4000х7,62 mm is about 39 J). At the same time, Fedorov's cartridge provided a smaller recoil impulse in comparison with the standard 2000-mm rifle cartridge, had a smaller mass, and was much more suitable for use in automatic weapons.

The high initial speed of the bullet allowed the designer to reduce the length of the barrel and reduce the size of the weapon to about one meter. In its fighting qualities, Fedorov’s development turned out to be something intermediate between an automatic rifle and a light machine gun. For this reason, at the suggestion of the inventor himself, the development was proposed to give a new name - automatic.

The tests of Fedorov’s development began at the end of the 1913 of the year, but the outbreak of the First World War put an end to the search for new rounds. However, already in 1915, the Russian army began to feel an acute need for small arms, including light machine guns. Quite a large number of small arms was lost in the battles. Therefore, they returned to Fedorov's automatic rifle again, deciding to order it as a light infantry support weapon. The need for such weapons of the military pushed the very nature of the fighting, which has changed significantly in comparison with the wars of the past. Making a decision to resume the production of the Fedorov machine, they decided to transfer it under the Japanese cartridge 6,5x50SR Arisaka, who possessed characteristics similar to the cartridge Fedorov. In the Russian army, these cartridges were already in significant numbers. They were acquired together with the Japanese rifles Arisaka already during the war to compensate for the losses in weapons. At the same time, the already released automata were going to be simply converted into using a Japanese cartridge by installing a special insert in the chamber.



From a self-loading rifle developed by Fedorov, his machine gun was distinguished by the presence of a hammer-type firing mechanism, a shortened barrel, the presence of a detachable sector-type box magazine for 25 cartridges (two-row) and the presence of a flag-type fire interpreter. Automatic weapons worked by recoil barrel with its short course. The barrel was locked using locking larvae (coupling cheeks), which rotated in a vertical plane. At the same time, the weapon allowed firing both single cartridges and continuous firing; there was a mechanical type fuse. On the machine, sights of an open type were used, which consisted of a sector sight and a front sight. There was also the possibility of mounting a bayonet on a weapon. The presence of the bayonet and sturdy butt allowed the use of the machine gun in hand-to-hand combat, where, thanks to its smaller dimensions, it was more convenient than a rifle.

Already in 1916, after carrying out the necessary series of tests, the novelty was adopted by the Russian army. The first combat use of the machine gun occurred on the Romanian front, where special regiments of machine gunners were formed as part of some regiments. For example, at the end of 1916, a special team of the 189th Izmail Infantry Regiment of the 48th Infantry Division received 45 Fedorov assault rifles of 6,5 mm caliber and 8 assault rifles of 7,62 mm caliber (experimental model of the same constructor) . It is curious that in addition to the submachine gun, a cartridge carrier was included in the calculation of the new weapon. Also, teams of machine gunners were equipped with binoculars, optical sights, daggers, bebut, portable shields. The Fedorov rifle was also used in aviation (First of all, it was used by the crews of Ilya Muromets heavy bombers), where he was the airborne weapon of the pilots. With automatic weapons it was planned to rearm primarily the shock units of the army. At the same time, according to the results of exploitation at the front, he received very good reviews: his reliability, accuracy of fire, and high strength of the parts locking the bolt were noted. At the same time, the army saw the machine gun in a Fedorov assault rifle, albeit a light one.

At the same time, at the end of 1916, Russia decided to order a batch of thousands of 25 machine guns, which was supposed to go to the troops. It was a mistake of the authorities that they initially chose a private factory as a contractor for the work. The selected contractor did not fulfill the state order. At that time, such enterprises were under the jurisdiction of Zemgor, whose leaders closely communicated and were associated with the participants of the future February revolution. In fact, it was sabotage and sabotage in the framework of the economic war conducted inside the country, which foreshadowed further unrest. When it was nevertheless decided to place the order at a state-owned enterprise, transferring it to the Sestroretsky plant, it was already too late, in February 1917 of the year a revolution broke out in Russia.



After the October Revolution, which took place in the same year, Vladimir Fedorov was sent to work in Kovrov, where he had to set up the production of his machine gun. In 1918 he was elected director of the plant, at that time this position was elective. Degtyarev was appointed head of the experimental workshop at the plant. Already in 1919, they were able to launch the assault rifle into mass production, and in 1924 they began work on the development of a number of machine guns unified with the Fedorov assault rifle - manual, tank, aviation, anti-aircraft. At the same time, in 1923, the machine was slightly modernized and a number of changes were made to its design: the shape of the feeder in the store was changed; introduced a slide delay; made grooves in the receiver for installing a clip with cartridges; introduced a muffler; created a sector sight with a range of up to 3000 steps (2100 meters).

Fedorov's rifles were safely in service with the Red Army until the end of 1928, until the military advanced excessive demands on infantry weapons (as it turned out only later). In particular, they demanded that an infantryman could hit armored vehicles with small arms with armor-piercing bullets. Since the 6,5-mm bullet pierced slightly smaller armor than the 7,62-mm rifle, the machine gun was decided to be discontinued, focusing on the development of a new automatic rifle. Also, the decision of the military was associated with the unification of ammunition, when it was decided to remove from service weapons weapons of calibers that differed from the main one - 7,62x54R. Yes, and stocks of Japanese ammunition purchased during the First World War, were not limitless, and to develop their own production of such cartridges in the USSR was considered economically impractical.

In total, up to the 1924 of the year when production of Fedorov’s machines was discontinued, about 3200 units of these small arms were manufactured. After 1928, these machines were transferred to warehousing, where they lay until 1940, when already in the course of the war with Finland, weapons were quickly returned to the troops, feeling an urgent need for automatic weapons.

The first Russian machine: automatic Fedorov


It should be understood that the Fedorov machine gun itself could not be seriously considered as a mass military weapon. Its reliability was inadequate (especially in the conditions of pollution and dust), it was difficult to maintain and manufacture. However, an analysis of the only reliable source available today for operating the Fedorov machine, a brochure that was released in the Soviet Union in 1923, suggests that the main problem of the machine was not its design flaws, but the poor quality of the construction materials used - sludge parts, metal influx and so on, as well as the poor quality of the ammunition supplied to the troops. It is worth noting that the author himself did not consider his weapon as massive. In the work “The Evolution of Small Arms”, Vladimir Fedorov wrote that his machine gun was intended primarily for arming various special forces, and not line infantry. He assumed that the machine gun would be a weapon for motorcycle, equestrian and hunting teams, as well as selected riflemen among the infantrymen who could realize its potential.

Perhaps the main merit of Vladimir Fedorov was that he was the first in Russia to create a working (albeit not perfect) sample of an individual automatic infantry weapon - an automatic rifle. Fedorov pioneered the creation of manual automatic weapons, anticipating the entire course. stories XX century, one of the brightest symbols of which, of course, was the automaton.

Main technical characteristics:
Caliber - 6,5 mm.
Length - 1045 mm.
Barrel length - 520 mm.
Weight - 4,4 kg (without store), with the store - 5,2 kg.
Rate of Fire - 600 shots / min.
Aim range - 400 m.
The maximum firing range - 2100 m.
Magazine capacity - 25 cartridges.



Information sources:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/rus/automatic-fedorov
http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/BeforeWWII/MS1/fedorov
http://www.opoccuu.com/af.htm
http://warspot.ru/776-pervyy-russkiy-avtomat
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  3. Duke
    Duke 10 December 2015 06: 42 New
    14
    The outstanding Russian designer-gunsmith, weapons expert and weapons historian V.G. Fedorov rightly entered the history of Russian small arms as the “father of automatic weapons”. He was the author of the first theoretical work “Automatic weapons” (1907 year) with the application “Atlas of drawings with automatic weapons”, which for a long time remained the only study in this area. He owns the first Russian automatic rifle and the world's first machine gun, adopted by the Russian army. He also belongs to the classification of automatic infantry weapons in:

    Self-loading rifles firing single shots and having a magazine with a capacity of 5-10 rounds.

    Self-rifle rifles, structurally similar to self-loading, but allowing to fire in a queue before emptying the store.

    Automatic. Weapons are similar to self-rifle rifles, but having an add-on magazine with an 25 capacity of ammunition ... a shortened barrel with a handle that makes the weapon suitable for a wide range of combat missions.


    Russia very early began work on the creation of automatic rifles, not yielding to the leading military-industrial powers of the time. Researches were conducted by Ya. U. Roschepey, P. N. Frolov, F. V. Tokarev, V. A. Degtyarev and other enthusiasts - inventors. All work was carried out on the authors' bare enthusiasm, without financial, theoretical and organizational support from the state. Ya. U. Roshchepey was forced to sign a declaration stating that, with his success, he “will be satisfied with a one-time bonus and will no longer claim anything.” So it is not surprising that not one of these nuggets (Tokarev and Degtyarev, famous gunsmiths of the future) could bring their samples to at least military trials. Only V. G. Fedorov managed this. Russian gunsmith VG Fedorov began work on the remaking of the magazine rifle sample 1891g. in automatic with 1905 of the year. To help Fedorov, the head of the shooting range of the officer rifle school N. M. Filatov appointed a mechanic V. A. Degtyarev. The conversion of the magazine rifle into an automatic one was recognized as inexpedient and in 1906 a fundamentally new project was ready, which was notable for simplicity and expediency (54 details instead of 74 in Browning). The rifle of the original design for a regular cartridge successfully passed all military tests in 1909-1912. The tests were cruel: they left the weapons for a day in the rain, put them into disassembled form in a pond, drove them on a cart on a dusty road, and then checked them by shooting. For this rifle, Fedorov was awarded a large Mikhailov Prize (Gold Medal), issued once in 5 years (S. I. Mosin was also awarded this prize). The Sestroretsk plant was ordered 150 pieces of new rifles.

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    2. topical
      topical 10 December 2015 11: 27 New
      -39
      Quote: Duke
      Russian gunsmith V.G. Fedorov began work on reworking a magazine rifle of the 1891 type. automatic since 1905.

      The idea is crazy in itself. It is valuable in that it gives an idea of ​​the "professionalism" of its author. After all, if you remake the three-ruler to automatic fire, you still can’t use it in this mode. Therefore, there is no point in redoing.
      Quote: Duke
      The rifle of the original design under the full-time cartridge successfully passed all military tests in 1909-1912.

      Where do such passions come from? The first fully capable automatic rifle on a cartridge of 7,62x54 mm in Russia / USSR was the PDM arr. 1944 She had a bunch of flaws. But she was quite reliable and capable. What there for Vandervaflu Fedorov did in 1912 is completely unknown. Some run ducks on the net, others breed them there.
      Quote: Duke
      For this rifle, Fedorov was awarded the Grand Mikhailovsky Prize (Gold Medal), which was issued once every 5 years (S.I. Mosin was also awarded this prize). Sestroretsky factory was ordered 150 pieces of new rifles.

      Where did this brilliant product then go? Enemies stole? And why only 150 pcs? Does it bother you?
      1. Victor Demchenko
        Victor Demchenko 10 December 2015 16: 08 New
        16
        Quote: topic
        Where do such passions come from? The first fully capable automatic rifle on a cartridge of 7,62x54 mm in Russia / USSR was the PDM arr. 1944 She had a bunch of flaws. But she was quite reliable and capable. What there for Vandervaflu Fedorov did in 1912 is completely unknown. Some run ducks on the net, others breed them there.

        The level of your professionalism is envious of your post. For your information, in 1940 the SVT-40 was adopted by the Red Army, and this rifle successfully went through the whole war. almost all parts of the marine corps were armed with it. and nowadays this rifle hi there is a demand among hunters for high quality and reliability with proper care. so you deserve a minus!
        1. topical
          topical 10 December 2015 17: 11 New
          -18
          Quote: Victor Demchenko
          in 1940, the SVT-40 was adopted by the Red Army, and this rifle successfully went through the whole war.

          This rifle was discontinued in 1941 if you are not in the know. How completely unsuitable. Ask why.
          Quote: Victor Demchenko
          practically all parts of the marine corps were armed with it

          Those. those who rarely had to shoot. Everything is logical.
          Quote: Victor Demchenko
          is in demand among hunters

          Do not confuse hunters and soldiers. These are different categories. If you aren’t in the know, write comments in articles about moths.
          1. tolancop
            tolancop 10 December 2015 18: 15 New
            +7
            In turn, I propose to take an interest in the number of riflemen lost in the USSR in the first months of the war and the cost of producing the SVT-40 in comparison with the three-ruler. So the reasons for withdrawing from production are not in the combat qualities of weapons.
            The Marine Corps, although marine, is still the infantry.
            But people with a level of development nevertheless got into sailors higher than in ordinary infantry. Therefore, weapons were given to them more difficult.

            Hunter and soldier are different categories. Only the working conditions of the hunter and the soldier are often similar - bestial (rain, snow, infrequent opportunity to do the right service).
            T.ch. judging by your posts about BabAcek articles, you should comment.
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. topical
              topical 10 December 2015 18: 28 New
              -14
              Quote: tolancop
              So the reasons for decommissioning are not in the combat qualities of weapons

              Of course. The reason is the fall of the Tunguska meteorite in the Siberian taiga.
              Quote: tolancop
              The Marine Corps, although marine, is still the infantry.

              No, the marines, this is not the infantry. The intensity of the fighting is not the same.
              Quote: tolancop
              But people with a level of development nevertheless got into sailors higher than in ordinary infantry. Therefore, weapons were given to them more difficult.

              Well, do not tell me this shnyaga, okay. Well, I came up with some kind of * iot, why are you retelling it? Where did the Marines get a "level of education"? It was all about the intensity of the fighting. It was necessary to attach the remnants of CBT somewhere.
              Quote: tolancop
              bestial (rain, snow, infrequent opportunity to do the right service).

              And where are the conditions? The main difference is the nature of the goals.
              1. Vladimirets
                Vladimirets 10 December 2015 18: 37 New
                +3
                Quote: topic
                the marines, this is not the infantry. The intensity of the fighting is not the same.

                Only a high-quality and reliable weapon is vital for her; during a landing, a defective weapon cannot be changed, it cannot be repaired and one cannot sit out in a trench.
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                3. tropic
                  tropic 19 December 2015 08: 01 New
                  0
                  Fans of 6,5 mm Hryundel and the like, I recommend paying attention to the following things:
                  1. Range effective defeat.
                  2. Impulse of return.
                  3. Parasitic heat dissipation.
                  Now, if someone suddenly manages to balance these things, and this is impossible based on the laws of physics, then we'll talk. This is me to the fact that you will never have to talk at all.
                  PS.
                  In AF, on the Mauser’s cartridge with a non-native bullet, only the effective defeat range was balanced. P 3. was 57% more than normal. As a result, automatic fire was contraindicated for such an “automatic machine”. And p 2. was more than the norm (already Soviet, 70s) by about 90%. Those. about twice. Comments are redundant.
                  In AF on the cartridge Arisaka Fedorov balanced only the heat sink. As a result, item 1 was performed by about 41% of the norm, which is bad. And p 2. was about 70% more than the norm (already Soviet, in the 61s), which is also bad.
                  Fine "balanced" designs, nothing to say. Humpty Dumpty.
                4. anew
                  anew 28 December 2015 16: 02 New
                  -2
                  So, we will deal briefly with the “first in the world”, “ingenious creation”, etc.
                  First, let’s clarify, there were two “brilliant” and “first in the world” TOTALLY DIFFERENT models. In addition, terminology issues. I will not use the terminology ours, it is more specific. To the best of my ability, I will give approximate Soviet similar terms in brackets. And yet, reliability issues are out of the question here.
                  So:
                  1. Product No. 1. Something on the Mauser cartridge with a non-native bullet (the so-called Fedorov cartridge). According to TTX, this is selective-fire rifle (self-loading rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire). To make it even clearer, this is not a fully automatic rifle (a real automatic rifle), it's a little different. To whom ABC-36 may be interested, this is just about what it is.
                  And from Soviet fully automatic rifle offhand only DP-27 comes to mind. True, in the USSR it was for some reason called the "machine gun." But this is not so. According to their performance characteristics, the DP -27 on the Light Machine Gun (LMG), i.e. on the "handbrake", did not pull in any way. Postscripts and fraud. The DP-27 was a multi-shot bipod automatic rifle.
                  Product No. 1 was clearly unsuccessful, because because of the gigantic recoil momentum, using automatic fire without bipod was difficult. In addition, like any elective-fire rifle, the rate of fire was so-so. In fact, it was an ordinary self-loading rifle with lotions of incomprehensible need.
                  These "machines" were later transferred to the letnabs. Blowing the barrel in the air was better, so the rate of fire there was noticeably higher. In addition, the Letnabs used primitive machines. Thus, this weapon was something automatic for the Air Force. What exactly, there is no desire to find out the details.
                  2. Product No. 2. On a regular Arisaka cartridge (neither "G"). This is definitely a Sub Machine Gun (SMG), i.e. machine. So now all hurt? No. The fact is that Fedorov normalized only the combat rate of fire of this model of his. Everything else about her was terrible.
                  Let's start with automatic fire. The recoil momentum was significantly weaker than that of model No. 1. But noticeably stronger than the same AK-47. Therefore, it was possible to use automatic fire, but only at short range. At the distances of fire of a normal submachine gun.
                  In addition, Fedorov did not know anything about wound ballistics then. She began to be closely interested in Europe only after WW1. And in the USSR, it was completely in the second half of the 20th century. That is why already in the 40s, all the users in the world together jumped off the weapon in the 6,5 mm caliber. Due to insufficient range of effective damage.
                  What actually was this Fedorov assault rifle in terms of its performance characteristics? It was an SMG (automatic) with the ballistics of a not-so-good submachine gun. Those. automatic weapons using a carabiner cartridge. It’s not easy to pick up analogs, such a weapon is very exotic. Immediately, only Cristobal M2 P.Kiraly comes to mind. And to some extent AS “Val”. Only the recoil impulses of them were much smaller, which allowed the normal use of automatic fire.
                  What is the result? Not a very good submachine gun carbine. Those. the cartridge class is one step higher than the weapon class. With restrictions on automatic fire. It was a failure.
                  1. anew
                    anew 28 December 2015 17: 05 New
                    0
                    Yes, here's another, since we're talking about machines.
                    It is necessary to distinguish Sub Machine Guns (i.e., just any automatic weapons) from fully Sub Machine Guns (i.e. full-fledged army automatic weapons). A lot of things fall into the SMG category. This is PPSh, and MP 40, and the same AF (Arisaka), and Cristobal M2, and StG 44, and AK-47 and much more. Few things fall into the fully SMG category. This is M16A1 with some reservations, as well as M16A (2 onwards). B some other products on the cartridge M855.
                  2. Jackking
                    Jackking 31 December 2015 17: 10 New
                    +1
                    "Product No. 1 was clearly unsuccessful, because it was difficult to use automatic fire without bipods due to the giant recoil momentum. Moreover, like any elective-fire rifle, the rate of fire was so-so. In fact, it was a regular self-loading rifle with lotions obscure need. " - but it happened in Russia at the beginning of the century. and advanced Europe with America, which studied ballistics, after WWII (that is, 40 years after the "backward" Russia refused to use the cartridge 7,62x54 in automatic rifles)) they took 7,62x51 as an intermediate !!! , and began to rivet "automatic" rifles under this cartridge. And tuned SVT 40 and presented it as a masterpiece of European thought in the form of FN FAL. Judging by the thoughts expressed, this masterpiece of independent Belgium possessed tremendous accuracy in laughing auto mode
              2. Grishka cat
                Grishka cat 10 December 2015 23: 00 New
                +3
                Who are the Marines of the beginning of the Second World War? These are sailors from the crews of warships: minders, train drivers, electric trains, i.e. people are technically literate compared to the infantrymen of that time. Moreover, service on ships required careful maintenance of their equipment. And SVT required care. A soldier’s proverb: “Weapons love grease, cleanliness and affection.” And the 1941 infantry’s infantry level is mainly rural youths with education of 4, maximum 7 grades. There were still cars and tractors everywhere.
                1. topical
                  topical 12 December 2015 00: 27 New
                  -3
                  Quote: Cat Grishka
                  And the 1941 KA infantry level is mainly rural youth with education of 4, a maximum of 7 classes. Not everywhere else there were tractors and cars.

                  Those. for some reason, do you think that in order to regulate the position of the gas valve, some special education was necessary? And wear pants and wipe your ass, how many classes did you have to finish? The tasks are about the same level of difficulty.
                  In fact, delays could begin at any time. And it was extremely inconvenient to adjust the crane. And I also needed a special key. Therefore, in order not to hemorrhoids, they put on a maximum. The rifle worked well, but not for long. In one move, she gradually broke the receiver, counter-flow, chamber. Marines fired infrequently, because they fought much less frequently than regular infantry. Therefore, the SVT resource was enough for them longer.
                  That’s the whole scary secret. And the rest, the invention of sofa dreamers.
                2. Pomeranian
                  Pomeranian 12 December 2015 21: 06 New
                  +1
                  Strange, but Manstein for some reason claims that "the quality of the infantry, which was in 41, the Russians have never been able to achieve."
          2. Kostya Andreev
            Kostya Andreev 10 December 2015 18: 26 New
            +7
            The Germans loved SVT
            1. topical
              topical 10 December 2015 18: 46 New
              -9
              Quote: Kostya Andrei
              The Germans loved SVT

              and I would love her too. If someone gave it to me for free. And also would have fallen off a bag of cartridges for free.
              But if I had to do it for my money, I would not love her very much. Rather, I would really not like it. About the same as in the USSR in the 2nd half of 1941. when it turned out that it was possible to use it without a hammer only on afterburner (maximum adjustment of the crane), and with such adjustment she does not live long.
              1. pv1005
                pv1005 10 December 2015 22: 06 New
                +1
                Quote: topic
                Quote: Kostya Andrei
                The Germans loved SVT

                and I would love her too. If someone gave it to me for free. And also would have fallen off a bag of cartridges for free.
                But if I had to do it for my money, I would not love her very much. Rather, I would really not like it. About the same as in the USSR in the 2nd half of 1941. when it turned out that it was possible to use it without a hammer only on afterburner (maximum adjustment of the crane), and with such adjustment she does not live long.

                And what have you done of this, well, you can’t tell me about this (albeit not for your money)? No? Well then, do not be fooled here. fool hi
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                2. topical
                  topical 13 December 2015 05: 59 New
                  0
                  Quote: pv1005
                  No? Well then, do not be fooled here.

                  What the hell are you talking about?
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          3. Pomeranian
            Pomeranian 12 December 2015 21: 04 New
            +1
            I was not too lazy to ask. Due to the high cost of manufacture and nothing more.
            1. topical
              topical 13 December 2015 06: 02 New
              0
              Quote: Pomoryanin
              Due to the high cost of manufacture and nothing more.

              But then what didn’t they release her after the Second World War? When didn’t you need a lot of weapons? What then began to make a funny AK-47? And SCS?
              Have you read it? Read about crane adjustment.
          4. Uhrmacher
            Uhrmacher 1 November 2017 14: 00 New
            0
            You write some nonsense ... nonsense, and so on ... explain to me then when AVT appeared ???
            in 44 year? Should SVT rubbish? ABT if anyone does not know this is the automatic version of SVT-40. Read books uncle. And yet, when was the last time they fired from SVT, AVT?
      2. tolancop
        tolancop 10 December 2015 18: 21 New
        +6
        The crazyness of the idea of ​​converting a store rifle into a self-loading rifle is not at all obvious. And if successful, the implementation of the idea promised a considerable economic gain. T.ch. in any case, it was worth a TRY. Moreover, in the 19th century, the alteration of weapons sinned not only in Russia but also in richer countries.
        Small circulation of a prototype? Not a crime .. IMHO, a completely robust approach. To get an idea during actual operation is enough; a negative result will be obtained - the costs are small, a positive one - to print out the circulation for further, more massive tests is not a problem.
        1. topical
          topical 10 December 2015 18: 43 New
          -4
          Quote: tolancop
          And if successful, the implementation of the idea promised a considerable economic gain.

          Clear. Explore the category of designing automatic weapons, such as the "heat sink." Then everything will become quite obvious.
          1. tolancop
            tolancop 10 December 2015 20: 34 New
            +7
            And everything is clear to me with you.
            1. Fedorov is charged with reworking
            store screws in self-loading or automatic.
            2. The idea of ​​remaking does not fit into the category of designing automatic weapons
            3. One of the recognized theoreticians in the design of automatic weapons is the same "delusional" Fedorov.

            Well, how does this all fit together?
            As well as modern screamers about the stupid Stalin, whom Hitler deceived.

            That you are NOW so highly competent and down, spitting through the lip, argue that Fedorov was wrong. And the fact that your "literacy" in the design of automatic weapons appeared not least of all by the efforts of the very Fedorov, who got the bumps and went through a series of failures, was somehow forgotten. If you are such a specialist in the design, then tell us what will happen there from the shooting years that way in 30.
            ps and something tells me that a lot of people will run around Africa and Asia with AKM and "curious" cartridges, but an Aboriginal with M16 will have to be VERY searched and not sure if such a thing will be found ...
            1. topical
              topical 13 December 2015 06: 20 New
              0
              Quote: tolancop
              And everything is clear to me with you.

              1. Right to blame? You somehow poorly understand what is written.
              3. Who is recognized? THE USSR? So there was a lot of funny things going on. And especially in the field of weapons design. After all, people lived in the Stone Age, in this area. Cooked in their own juice. Therefore, the products were so strange. One "brilliant series of weapons on a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm" which is only worth it. No saboteur could harm the USSR like its high-ranking customers from the USSR Ministry of Defense.
              Quote: tolancop
              And the fact that your "literacy" in the design of automatic weapons appeared, not least the works of the very Fedorov

              You know, frankly, I have not read it at all. I did not find it necessary.
              Quote: tolancop
              something tells me that a lot of people will run around Africa and Asia with AKM and "curious" cartridges, but the native with M16 will have to be VERY searched and not sure if such a thing will be found ...

              Of course. Because AKM was free (the USSR gave them away to “friends”, as if selling them, when it was rearmament to AK-74). And M16 must be bought for their money. And the M16 is extremely expensive. Therefore, comparing M16 with AKM is incorrect.
      3. Kostya Andreev
        Kostya Andreev 10 December 2015 18: 25 New
        +2
        I was even confused! You should read on the topic, something.
        1. Grishka cat
          Grishka cat 10 December 2015 23: 05 New
          +1
          I agree with you, Kostya Andreev. After all, you can search the net. There are a lot of different information. It would be a desire!
      4. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 12 December 2015 21: 03 New
        +2
        In fact, this, as you boldly called the “Wunderwaffe,” was in service with the Red Army until the 1927 year. Then the machine was removed due to lack of ammunition. The second time, the Fedorov assault rifle was adopted in the 1939 year. In the last picture, Osnaz soldiers are sitting on a Finnish bunker on the Karelian Isthmus.
        1. topical
          topical 13 December 2015 06: 27 New
          -1
          Quote: Pomoryanin
          In fact, this, as you boldly called the “Wunderwaffe,” was in service with the Red Army until 1927.

          So what? Does this mean that this weapon was good? Fedorov’s activities in arming the AF are generally akin to wrecking (from incompetence, unconscious), in my opinion. There are objective assessments.
          Do not believe me, believe Italians and Japanese. In the 30s, they began to merge all weapons on the cartridge of Arisaka (Italians on Carcano) in the caliber of 6,5 mm into the scrap. Forever. And nowhere else in the world have they ever been put into service. Because already in the 30s everything in the world about wound ballistics became clear (in the USSR these “revelations” became clear much later, the country was closed)
          And only at dubious forums the ridiculous "experts" continue to tryndet on the topic of "promising 6,5 mm caliber." Absolutely nothing in the rifleman.
    3. twviewer
      twviewer 10 December 2015 15: 21 New
      +5
      3D Fedorov rifle mod. 1916 d. Complete disassembly
      [/ Quote]
  4. bocsman
    bocsman 10 December 2015 07: 03 New
    21
    Both tsarist and Soviet general Fedorov is a great worker for the good of the motherland! Theorist, researcher, teacher. One "History of small arms" is worth it! And by the way, not only Degtyarev, his faithful ally, considered him his teacher, but also many other gunsmiths of that legendary generation! Everlasting memory !
    1. bunta
      bunta 10 December 2015 07: 32 New
      +8
      Quote: bocsman
      And by the way, not only Degtyarev considered him his teacher

      but also M.T. Kalashnikov. Being in the hospital after being wounded, Kalashnikov began his acquaintance with the theory of automatic weapons from Fedorov’s books.
  5. Per se.
    Per se. 10 December 2015 07: 32 New
    11
    Fedorov chose an 6,5-mm cartridge for his automatic rifle.
    That's what was no less important with the advent of the Fedorov assault rifle. The selected cartridge from the "Arisaki", the stocks of which were after the Russo-Japanese war, was not accidental, Fedorov noted a similar caliber as the most optimal for the new weapon. Unfortunately, all this was forgotten, our intermediate cartridges 7,62 and 5,45 have lower performance, and coupled with the insufficient quality of gunpowder and capsule, they also reduce the performance of weapons. For example, we have undeservedly forgotten RPD machine gun, after the alterations by the Americans under the cartridge 6,8 mm significantly improved its performance.
    In 2009, the 6,8 Remington SPC cartridge was adopted as a full-time armament for the Royal Guard of Jordan (Royal Special Security Service) - a well trained and equipped formation of up to 10 000 people. At the same time, the Jordanians showed a very lively interest in the modernized RPD under this cartridge.
    In fact, the 6,8 Remington SPC cartridge provides a relatively compact and light light machine gun with an effective firing range and a lethal action that exceeds that of a weapon with small-caliber intermediate rounds (including such a well-known model as the FN Minimi), in addition, ammunition unification with staffing machine of the royal guards. In relation to the modernization of the RPD machine gun, the transition to the 6,8 Remington SPC cartridge gives a noticeable gain in ballistic properties. These cartridges have almost the same recoil momentum: 5.8 kgm / s for the 6,8 Remington SPC versus 5,9 kgm / s for the 7,62-mm cartridge of the 1943 sample at close muzzle energies (2330 and 2190 J, respectively - the difference is less than 10%). However, due to the smaller caliber and higher initial velocity of the bullet, the difference in its energy at a range of 500 meters is already about 40% in favor of the American cartridge (750 J for 6,8 mm versus 480 J for 7,62x39).
    Thinking about the modernization of AK, it would be useful to remember the opinion of Fedorov on the cartridge for machine guns.
    1. Mera joota
      Mera joota 10 December 2015 09: 45 New
      0
      Quote: Per se.
      For example, we have undeservedly forgotten RPD machine gun, after the alteration by the Americans under the cartridge of 6,8 mm, it significantly increased its characteristics.

      I mean, do Americans make RPDs under the 6,8 Remington SPC? And which company?
      1. Per se.
        Per se. 10 December 2015 10: 08 New
        +9
        Quote: Mera Joota
        And which company?
        DS Arms, produced for civilian use (oddly enough, is in demand, even without the possibility of firing bursts, as an "assault carbine"), and directly, as a light machine gun. They make 7,62x39 under our throne and 6,8x43 under our throne. In the photo (clickable) you can check out and innovations. You look in more detail in a network, there was a material about it and on.
        1. Per se.
          Per se. 10 December 2015 10: 12 New
          +4
          Another option with a grip-bipod. In the first and second photos under the 7,62x39 cartridge, there are also pictures from the 6,8 Remington SPC, but the photo is worse in quality, and all the visual difference is only in the longer cartridge.
          1. gross kaput
            gross kaput 10 December 2015 13: 30 New
            0
            This is called heard ringing -
            Quote: Per se.
            DS Arms, produced for civilian use (oddly enough, is in demand, even without the possibility of firing bursts, as an "assault carbine"), and directly, as a light machine gun. They make 7,62x39 under our crown and under 6,8x43.

            It would be as if they produce only semi-automatic machines sawed from Chinese RPD clones - type 56, as in their native tree - just with the AB removed and in the body kit, and only under 7,62X39. The full-auto version was never interested in anyone, and the options for grendel and 6,8 remained purely exhibition, although it is likely that by individual order they can stick a barrel under the grendel.
            1. twviewer
              twviewer 10 December 2015 15: 10 New
              +3
              Quote: gross kaput
              How would they produce only semi-automatic machines sawed from Chinese RPD clones - type 56

              is and completely from the United States parts is just not cheap 1051 $
              for example (auto)
              1. gross kaput
                gross kaput 10 December 2015 17: 45 New
                -1
                Quote: twviewer
                there are completely from the US parts

                So, tell us which company in the USA does RPD entirely from scratch?
                Although, in principle, I myself can tell you - none, because it is absolutely not profitable, in America only receiver frames are riveted under a seven-car - let’s say so - grimace of the US arms laws.
                1. twviewer
                  twviewer 10 December 2015 18: 28 New
                  +2
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  So, tell us which company in the USA does RPD entirely from scratch?

                  I see you don’t speak English, but you know, it’s funny.
                  there’s a video on YouTube where an American makes 40 RPDs and gives explanations, but this is not possible, because it’s never possible lol
                  1. gross kaput
                    gross kaput 10 December 2015 18: 57 New
                    +2
                    Quote: twviewer
                    where the American 40pcs RPD makes and gives explanations

                    Shaw straightens every detail on the machine under the camera? belay
                    Or maybe all the same ASSEMBLES from the finished parts?
                    Quote: twviewer
                    I see you do not speak English

                    Unfortunately, you have problems with English because you couldn’t even find the DSA website, and if you didn’t, you couldn’t translate and comprehend this - "The DSA RPD features a US made receiver and a RPD Polish parts kit." Do you want to translate it or still be able to master that the DSA RPD consists of only one American part - the receiver - and everything else is a Polish set of READY-made parts? Thanks to the American receiver and their own legislation, this machine gun is legally considered to be made there, and from a practical point of view only the receiver is made there.
                    So before bragging about English, learn the history of the subject matter.
                    1. twviewer
                      twviewer 10 December 2015 21: 02 New
                      0
                      Quote: gross kaput
                      Shaw straightens every detail on the machine under the camera? belay

                      grinds, just not an American, but the machines themselves are basically laughing
                      1. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 10 December 2015 21: 35 New
                        0
                        Well, hde one? this intimate video? Shaw lost?
                      2. twviewer
                        twviewer 10 December 2015 21: 46 New
                        0
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        Well, hde one? this intimate video? Shaw lost?

                        yeah, stuck wink
                        just tell me the standard RPD in the video presented first? and how many pieces does he have ??
                      3. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 10 December 2015 22: 05 New
                        -1
                        In which? I understand that the great expert in English nevertheless figured out what specific details are being made in the USA and is trying to timidly turn on the back one? The next post will probably be either related to the inflating of sponges - like “I don’t want to prove anything to anyone yourself and look for it” or “there was a video but I can’t find it as an option. Did I understand your tail rotational movements correctly?
                      4. twviewer
                        twviewer 10 December 2015 22: 25 New
                        +1
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        . Do I understand your tail rotations correctly?

                        no clue for doggie not talking
                        able to switch to at least Russian? crying
                      5. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 10 December 2015 22: 46 New
                        -1
                        Quote: twviewer
                        able to switch to at least Russian?

                        All? drain can be counted? or still show your secret video?
                      6. twviewer
                        twviewer 10 December 2015 23: 04 New
                        -1
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        All? drain

                        I do not want to drain, thanks:
                        Quote: gross kaput
                        How would they produce only semi-automatic machines sawed from Chinese RPD clones - type 56
                      7. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 10 December 2015 23: 56 New
                        -1
                        Well, in general, everything is clear with you - they blurted out about the completely American RPD and as it came to checking, it turned out that there was an American one or two and miscalculated, but about Type-56, I got it wrong because I read about this alteration a long time ago I remembered what kind of export is taken but for some reason, it was postponed that China - but only China or Poland is not so substantially basically right - no one bothers with manufacturing entirely from scratch because there is a single demand and even taking into account the use of modern equipment, the price tag will be space. So comrade cheap drain you counted in full as if you did not want laughing
                      8. twviewer
                        twviewer 11 December 2015 00: 23 New
                        0
                        and here is your conversation

                        I do not agree, the Polish parts are not Chinese, and they’re selling automatic versions, only class 3 must be
                        PS with the trunk that's just not clear, it's non-standard with ribs like Fedorov :), but carry
                      9. twviewer
                        twviewer 11 December 2015 01: 21 New
                        0
                        bourgeois from DSA on the video says our own barrel ... so then to the box and butt with a handle there’s also an American barrel, a Belgian flame arrester, but the main parts are from Poland
                      10. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 11 December 2015 12: 11 New
                        0
                        Quote: twviewer
                        PS with the barrel that's just not clear, it's non-standard with ribs

                        Not with ribs but with flutes - this is the element “opposite” to the ribs - a longitudinal selection in the metal.
                        Quote: twviewer
                        the handle is also an American barrel

                        With the trunk, in fact, it’s not all clear - it would be most logical to use complete Polish trunks, the site has a link to the 922R list, probably there is an explanation there, it is quite possible that there are some restrictions on the import of not only full cars receiver boxes but also trunks. Well, the second explanation is that after cutting through the flutes and / or shortening the regular Polish trunk, they automatically start to count it as Made in Yusai, I don’t see other logical options here, in general, you need to ask those who are strong in the American dense forest of arms legislation.
  • Per se.
    Per se. 11 December 2015 07: 07 New
    +1
    Quote: gross kaput
    This is called heard ringing -
    Without such an introduction in any way, a big "scribe"? For that matter, the Americans bought the first machine guns from the Poles, who had a license from the Soviet era. In general, RPDs in the world are sea, and, with a significant share of the Soviet assembly, it is not a fact that only Chinese clones are "sawed". In the DS Arms version, only the receiver was left in the machine gun from the native, the rest is new, call it what you want, but it was mainly about the fact that the machine gun was modernized and the characteristics of the new cartridge were affected. You would at least get to the bottom of the comment if you fit in. Okay, the topic here, as they say, showed off, so at least sincerely, what you lack in self-affirmation is, especially since you are invoking the editors about the rules of the site ...
    1. gross kaput
      gross kaput 11 December 2015 11: 12 New
      -1
      Quote: Per se.
      In general, RPD in the world of the sea,

      Yeah, only they were riveted by the USSR, China, Poland and North Korea. laughing
      Quote: Per se.
      Without such an introduction in any way, a big "scribe"

      In relation to you - no, because even for a day you still didn’t bother to find out that just the amer’s receiver is a remake of the local spill, and everything else has been cut from native parts. As a matter of fact, they didn’t find the strength to open the DSA website and find out that despite the fact that several years ago on the Shot Show they showed an option for a grendel in their product line, it remained and remained a concept, so the expression heard a ringing in relation to you it’s absolutely true, but children's insults are frankly all the same to me.
      1. Per se.
        Per se. 11 December 2015 12: 43 New
        +1
        Quote: gross kaput
        for even in a day you didn’t bother to find out that just the amer’s receiver is a remake of the local spill, and everything else has been sawn off from native parts.
        DS Arms, only the receiver was left, everything else is new, the Americans equipped the RPD with a new shortened barrel with longitudinal lobes for its easier and better cooling, as well as an effective flame arrester, the old wooden butt and pistol grip were replaced with more convenient and lightweight plastic (butt - telescopic). Also, a new aluminum forend with guides of the Picatinny type (adding an optical or collimator sight), as well as the Grip-pod assault handle with an integrated bipod, which replaces the standard RPD bipod. Further, the heavy and not very convenient drum container for the tape was replaced with a lighter soft one (made of synthetic fabric), in which the tape rattles less when moving. It’s too late for me to talk about childhood grievances, it’s not that age, but it would really be more decent for you to find the strength to admit that starting with rudeness is not the best thing when talking with a stranger who has done nothing wrong to you. It’s your business, Mr. Kaput, think what you want, I don’t baptize children with you, and, thank God, do not go into intelligence. In the photo there is a "sawn" trunk, which the native RPD never had.
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 11 December 2015 13: 12 New
          0
          Characters like you have always admired me - you probably make diagnoses from photographs and treat people with the power of thought from a distance? laughing And apparently religion doesn’t allow you to go to the official DSA website? laughing
          "They feature new US made receivers, barrels and the proper 922R compliance components." - do you need to translate?
          Quote: Per se.
          what to start with rudeness is not the best thing

          Where? But you unfortunately have a very developed touchiness - probably the consequences of some complexes and you, in response to a generally harmless proverb, begin to take offense and be rude
          Quote: Per se.
          big scribe
          and rude somehow somehow childish from the category of "myself"
          Quote: Per se.
          Also, a new aluminum forend with guides of the Picatinny type (adding an optical or collimator sight), as well as the Grip-pod assault handle with an integrated bipod, which replaces the standard RPD bipod. Further, the heavy and not very convenient drum container for the tape was replaced with a lighter soft (made of synthetic fabric), in which the tape rattles less when moving

          For people far from shooting, I explain all this is called a “body kit” and in no way indicates the news and originality of the design - let’s say it never comes to my mind to call my SCS new and made by me just because it is equipped with a box from slippers SAA-shny a compensator, a butt from magpools, Aympoyt kalik, an insert adapter for high-capacity magazines and a new magazine latch, in spite of all this, he remains the Soviet SCS kit. It’s a pity that it’s not that you don’t understand this, but that you don’t want to see and check how it really is before writing anything.
          1. Per se.
            Per se. 12 December 2015 19: 50 New
            +1
            Quote: gross kaput
            For people far from shooting, I explain all this is called "body kit"
            Since when has the “new body kit” become a completely new barrel, and not even a removable one? If what I have listed is just a body kit, plus your “new” receiver, so what is left of the old RPD? It turns out that the Americans are making a completely new machine gun, where almost everything has been replaced, including the barrel and receiver. The Americans on their website represent the RPD in various versions, including the almost preserved initial appearance of the machine gun. I don’t know what kind of gross specialist you are in shooting, if it warms your soul, but, frankly, talking to you is not very pleasant. I had a chance to communicate with many people, both military and athletes, who know a lot about weapons, I myself shot a lot of what in the army and was engaged in sports shooting from a pistol after. I do not care about offenses, just, my generation has learned to express my thoughts and feelings without emoticons, and in people to appreciate goodwill and modesty. In this regard, you are not the person with whom I am interested in communicating, but, undoubtedly, your opinion is your right. All the best.
            1. twviewer
              twviewer 12 December 2015 20: 40 New
              +1
              Quote: Per se.
              It turns out that the Americans are making a completely new machine gun, where almost everything has been replaced, including the barrel and receiver.

              not quite so, Kaput is in many respects right, he simply can’t convey it hot and calm.
              The Americans cut and process the barrel, as if they were cutting a new box and possibly a forend, the rest of the body kit is either imported or localized (assembled) in America, which makes it American legally, but not in fact, such as the Mexican butt.
            2. gross kaput
              gross kaput 12 December 2015 22: 01 New
              0
              Quote: twviewer
              not quite so, Kaput is in many ways right

              Yes, it’s just that the comrade belongs to the category of citizens that I don’t like so much that they always know everything, and the field of knowledge extends from flights to Mars to the reproduction of marsupials in captivity, and the most annoying thing is that they never check their “knowledge” from available sources. Well, as for the trunks, the information is such, the RPDs themselves are imported in the form of sawn “whales” BUT new trunks for them are also imported from the Poles from the warehouse spare parts only separately, but in the USA they are either put “as is” or are being finalized (cannulas are cut , trimmed)
            3. Per se.
              Per se. 12 December 2015 22: 46 New
              +2
              Quote: twviewer
              Trunk Americans trim and process
              The new barrel had to be made mainly due to the use of a new cartridge, 6,8 mm, respectively, and the barrel channel, the barrel itself, had to be changed. In general, changing the “body kit”, doing the tuning, the cheapest and easiest, would have been enough, would not have bothered with a new cartridge and a new barrel. Changing the receiver, is tantamount to developing a new machine gun. The only thing that had to be replaced was to work out the bolt and return spring under the new cartridge (in the case of the version for the 6,8 mm cartridge). Interestingly, the "big end" blames others, but not themselves, their beloved, they only "saw" the Chinese, then they replaced one receiver (although it was left with giblets). I personally regret that instead of a normal dialogue on interests, this whole “pornography” turned out because of Sergey’s ambitions, who came out from the position that he knows everything, while others only heard the ringing. I am able to admit mistakes, be they, and never blame others. There are incompatible people, apparently, it’s just better not to communicate once again.
            4. gross kaput
              gross kaput 13 December 2015 22: 36 New
              0
              Quote: Per se.
              Interestingly, the "big end" blames others, but not yourself, beloved

              So which of us is rude to me or a comrade who is writhing himself as an “anti-agent” which, however, does not prevent him from distorting other people's nicknames? Cheap and childishly naive but nonetheless shows the level of a man.
              Quote: Per se.
              "sawing" only Chinese,
              Chukchi is not a reader but a writer? (another proverb if someone does not know) read my posts carefully and you will open
              Quote: gross kaput
              what about Type-56, but I got it wrong because I read about this alteration long ago I remembered that export is taken as a base, but for some reason it was postponed that China - but only China or Poland is not so essential basically

              Unlike you, I don’t always consider myself right and the first time I wrote from memory, then, unlike you, I was not too lazy and it turned out that it was not China but Poland that I honestly wrote about, but you still could not find the official DSA website and find out that ONLY OPTIONS UNDER 7,62X39 are produced, the 6,8 option was shown at the 2012 shot show and was never mass-produced and remained in single copies,
              Quote: Per se.
              , 6,8 mm, respectively, had to change the bore, the barrel itself

              for those who still believe that the RPD consists only of the barrel and the receiver and could not learn English to climb English resources, I inform you - the machine gun belt is designed for a cartridge length of 7,62X39 which is shorter by 3 mm than 6,8 and the tape itself , the shutter cup and the reflector are designed for the diameter of the bucket 7,62, which is 1,5 mm larger, as a result, when switching to 6,8, a completely complete alteration of the machine gun design really is already required and that is why the 6,8 version remained semi-mock-up, at least the people who tested it wrote that the most winning bullets with bullets with good ammunition had to be charged one at a time! Although showing on a short show and hints of a Jordanian order is a very competent PR move, from the same series as Magpulovskaya Masada, which allowed a small firm to get a very good advertisement. And even with a pretzel that is much more suitable because it is made on the basis of the 7,62X39 sleeve, the same ended with nothing - which is also quite logical for the RPD in the USA, like AK and SKS, this is an opportunity to arrange post-shootings for cheap by shooting army surplus from eastern Europe and China is purely for fun, but with the price of grendelles, nice little gunfights are unprofitable, but there is no difference in shooting bottles and other rubbish.
              Quote: Per se.
              I personally wish that instead of a normal dialogue

              And I personally wish that instead of complexing in the topic, you could not read a little about the subject of the dispute.
        2. gross kaput
          gross kaput 12 December 2015 21: 08 New
          +1
          Quote: Per se.
          It turns out that the Americans are making a completely new machine gun,

          It turns out that you are trying to discuss things that you don’t really understand, the saddest thing is that you don’t even try to figure it out, I specially inform you that the RPD is a bit more complicated than the child’s ignition and, in addition to the barrel and the receiver, it consists of a bolt frame with a gas piston, a shutter, a trigger frame with a butt and trigger, a return mechanism, a gas regulator with a gas chamber, a receiver cover, a “tape drive” and also any “small things” such as sighting fastening a can of latches and other accessories.
          Actually, if you instead of writing offended posts would usefully spend this time and find out why and why, I would begin to respect you as well as another one passing by from the "politicians" with the standard for the Russian "intelligentsia" a set of complexes, as befits an expert on everything and everyone.
          And the casket in the newly made barrel and box opens simply, they are newly made not because it’s better, but because the machine gun is exported to the USA so that there would be an acceptable price tag at the exit
    2. gross kaput
      gross kaput 11 December 2015 13: 55 New
      0
      I’m just really awesome with you that religion doesn’t allow you to go to the DSA website? laughing or read English reviews of those who shot him or is the owner of this miracle?
      Quote: Per se.
      as well as an effective flame arrester, the old wooden butt and pistol grip were replaced with more convenient and lightweight plastic ones (butt - telescopic).

      All over the world this is called a “body kit” and is by no means considered a modernization or the manufacture of a new model. Izhevsk AK in the American body kit will never be considered Madame In Yusai, whoever writes anything on the basis of any laws on his receiver, so, for thought, when we convert the German trophy 98K into a hunting variant from the warehouse of all changes, it has a welded crimmet in the barrel and new markings KO-98 and “made in Russia” in your opinion where this carbine was actually made in Russia or all the same in the Third Reich? Or when Hammer-Arms launches a hunting MP-38 made of a modern noisy Ukrainian replica with a barrel installed under the Russian Federation under 9X19 - where do you think this hybrid is made?
      PS and by the way you were the first to be rude
      Quote: Per se.
      big scribe
      offended by a highly inflated FWM on a completely harmless saying.
    3. twviewer
      twviewer 11 December 2015 14: 25 New
      +1
      Quote: Per se.
      to admit that starting with rudeness is not the best thing when talking with a stranger who hasn’t done anything bad to you

      this is right, I support in every way, truth is born in a dispute, so why be rude? I attribute it to enthusiasm and hope to improve the "climate" for normal communication.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  • Per se.
    Per se. 11 December 2015 13: 18 New
    0
    Quote: gross kaput
    for even in a day you still didn’t bother to find out that just the amer’s receiver is a remake of the local spill, and everything else has been cut from native parts

    DS Arms, only the receiver was left, everything else is new, the Americans equipped the RPD with a new shortened barrel with longitudinal lobes for its easier and better cooling, as well as an effective flame arrester, the old wooden butt and pistol grip were replaced with more convenient and lightweight plastic (butt - telescopic). Also, a new aluminum forend with guides of the Picatinny type (adding an optical or collimator sight), as well as the Grip-pod assault handle with an integrated bipod, which replaces the standard RPD bipod. Further, the heavy and not very convenient drum container for the tape was replaced with a lighter soft one (made of synthetic fabric), in which the tape rattles less when moving. It’s too late for me to talk about childhood grievances, it’s not that age, but it would really be more decent for you to find the strength to admit that starting with rudeness is not the best thing when talking with a stranger who has done nothing wrong to you. It’s your business, Mr. Kaput, think what you want, I don’t baptize children with you, and, thank God, do not go into intelligence.
  • Per se.
    Per se. 11 December 2015 13: 22 New
    0
    DS Arms, only the receiver was left, everything else is new, the Americans equipped the RPD with a new shortened barrel with longitudinal lobes for its easier and better cooling, as well as an effective flame arrester, the old wooden butt and pistol grip were replaced with more convenient and lightweight plastic (butt - telescopic). Also, a new aluminum forend with guides of the Picatinny type (adding an optical or collimator sight), as well as the Grip-pod assault handle with an integrated bipod, which replaces the standard RPD bipod. Further, the heavy and not very convenient drum container for the tape was replaced with a lighter soft one (made of synthetic fabric), in which the tape rattles less when moving. It’s too late for me to talk about childhood grievances, it’s not that age, but it would really be more decent for you to find the strength to admit that starting with rudeness is not the best thing when talking with a stranger who has done nothing wrong to you. It’s your business, Mr. Kaput, think what you want, I don’t baptize children with you, and, thank God, do not go into intelligence. In the photo there is a "sawn" trunk, which the native RPD never had.
  • Per se.
    Per se. 11 December 2015 13: 27 New
    0
    DS Arms, only the receiver was left, everything else is new, the Americans equipped the RPD with a new shortened barrel with longitudinal lobes for its easier and better cooling, as well as an effective flame arrester, the old wooden butt and pistol grip were replaced with more convenient and lightweight plastic (butt - telescopic). Also, a new aluminum forend with guides of the Picatinny type (adding an optical or collimator sight), as well as the Grip-pod assault handle with an integrated bipod, which replaces the standard RPD bipod. Further, the heavy and not very convenient drum container for the tape was replaced with a lighter soft one (made of synthetic fabric), in which the tape rattles less when moving. It’s too late for me to talk about childhood grievances, it’s not that age, but it would really be more decent for you to find the strength to admit that starting with rudeness is not the best thing when talking with a stranger who has done nothing wrong to you. It’s your business, Mr. Kaput, think what you want, I don’t baptize children with you, and, thank God, do not go into intelligence.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • topical
    topical 10 December 2015 10: 39 New
    -22
    Quote: Per se.
    Thinking about the modernization of AK, it would be useful to remember the opinion of Fedorov on the cartridge for machine guns.

    It would be useful. If Fedorov understood something in this. Remind you of the fate of his "development"? Even the illiterate Bolsheviks gave them a knee in the ass. He knew absolutely nothing in wound ballistics. This is not surprising, in the USSR in general they began to understand something only between the adoption of 9x18 mm PM ammunition and 5,45x39 mm. Those. decently so deep into the second half of the 20th century.
    And do not recall the "promising Hryundel." In the courtyard of the 21st century. Already everyone and everything about wound ballistics has long been known. That is why the cartridges on the classic pool make about 7,62 mm in caliber, and on the new pool, about 5,5 mm. And the "promising Hryundel" exists only in the fantasies of "sofa designers".
    1. Per se.
      Per se. 10 December 2015 13: 42 New
      13
      Quote: topic
      It would be useful. If Fedorov understood something in this. Remind you of the fate of his "development"?
      Striking your categorical judgment. Firstly, Fedorov rose to the rank of general in the tsarist army, and secondly, one of his students, Degtyarev, became a famous and influential gunsmith during the Bolsheviks. Fedorov himself was a student of Mosin, and by the era of the USSR he was far from a young man. The fate of the development of Fedorov was largely determined by the position of Tsar Nicholas II, who had a negative attitude to automatic weapons, since "there will not be enough cartridges." You, as a world expert, talk about "wound ballistics," but you don’t have to expose yourself as captain of Evidence and ultimate truth. Personally, it’s always interesting for me to listen to the opinions of people, but not when they only hear themselves. Work on intermediate cartridges does not stop, and the 6,5 mm caliber has not gone anywhere, the 6,5x38 Grendel cartridges have even higher rates than the 6,8 Remington SPC, and even more so 5,45x39, 7,62x39 and NATO 5,56 mm, the problem is that they still have a higher price. I don’t see a point in arguing about M16 at all, it’s even strange that when you talked about AK-74, you didn’t call Kalashnikov a “sergeant” after you have to understand that more than once Tsarist General Fedorov was called a “ensign”.
      1. topical
        topical 10 December 2015 17: 35 New
        -15
        Quote: Per se.
        First, Fedorov rose to the rank of general in the tsarist army

        The harder his actions, he joined the coup and criminal (Bolsheviks). To people, in January 1918 who committed the grave criminal offense under the laws of any time, an armed coup. How then can he be respected as a person? What kind of general is he after that?
        Quote: Per se.
        secondly, one of his students, Degtyarev, became a famous and influential gunsmith during the Bolsheviks

        Degtyareva respect. And I consider him the MOST OUTSTANDING SOVIET WEAPON DESIGNER. By himself, including various Kalashnikovs and other Shpagins. I do not know how much and how much Fedorov taught Degtyarev. I do not exclude that he never taught him anything at all.
        Quote: Per se.
        Fedorov himself was a student of Mosin

        Well, do not tell me, okay? Mosin was not a constructor. Mosin was a process engineer. And he was engaged in the development of technology for setting the Nagan rifle into production in Russia. Why the design was not a fundamental change. Managed successfully. For what I received the award. History would not be worth a damn if in 1930. the Bolsheviks did not decide to name the Russian three-ruler by the name of Mosin.
        Quote: Per se.
        The fate of the development of Fedorov was largely determined by the position of Tsar Nicholas II

        And here is Nicholas II ?. The first normal wearable automatic weapon in the USSR was created in 1944. It was called PDM. Based on the performance characteristics was a heavy automatic rifle on the bipod. In NSD it is called a machine gun, which contradicts the table with TTX located in the same place.
        Quote: Per se.
        6,5x38 Grendel cartridges have even higher performance than 6,8 Remington SPC, and even more so 5,45x39, 7,62x39 and NATO 5,56 mm

        It’s ridiculous. No, well, seriously, they made fun. Can you describe the advantages of Hründel? Try, and I’ll scold you. Moreover, it is easy and simple. and don’t need about the flatness of the trajectory. This is not a very interesting indicator. Yes, and 5,45 mm trajectory posle.
        Quote: Per se.
        the problem is that while they have a higher price.

        Why would it be such a high price? Silver bullets? From vampires?
        Quote: Per se.
        I don’t see the point of arguing over the M16, it’s even strange that you, speaking of the AK-74

        Not worth it. AK-74, this is just a deliberately spoiled M16A1 (old model). TTX M16A1 in the format of "individual automatic weapons" (AK-74) in the USSR could not be achieved. For this, Soviet designers needed bipod. So ballistically RPK-74, it is something roughly equivalent to M16A1. Accordingly, M16A2-x, this is better. AK-74, it's worse. What is interesting here is that when using a cartridge of one class (intermediate, new type), the Americans, due to the "school", received an automatic rifle. And in the USSR they received an assault rifle (carbine). Feel the difference, as they say. This is what school means. The eggs in profile were not the same.
        1. aws4
          aws4 15 December 2015 02: 35 New
          +2
          yes you are absolutely right rpk74 ballistics is approximately equal to m16a1 and accordingly m16a2 is superior to ak74 and many know this and do not deny it .... only one question is why then absolutely consciously americans rearm on m4 carbines whose ballistics is approximately equal to ak74 ???? save 10 centimeters of the barrel ???? But maybe the fact is that for the ordinary infantryman this ballistics is quite enough? and if so, why not shorten and lighten the weapon ??? do you really think that aka74 is just a deliberately spoiled m16a1 ??? the goals were somewhat different and you yourself know it as well as the fact that if there was a goal to surpass, then we went a different way starting from the cartridge itself ....
          1. topical
            topical 15 December 2015 14: 26 New
            0
            Quote: aws4
            why then, absolutely consciously, the Americans rearm on M4 carbines the ballistics of which is approximately equal to ak74

            Americans (and any army) need service weapons. Including and automatic. To this end, the Americans all the way released SMG. Including The SMG was the M16A1, which replaced Thompson's SMG. However, having tested it in Vietnam, the Americans finished it up to the M16A2, which was no longer the SMG, but the main individual infantry automatic weapon. But something like the SMG army is still needed. They became M4A1. Those. SMG line looks like this: Thompson - M16A1 - M4A1. While the branch of the main army weapons looks like this: M1 Garand - M14 - M16A2.
            And the fact that some kind of a fool there instead of M16A4 "for convenience" dragged only M4A1 on special operations, so there are enough of them everywhere.
            PS. The effective range of the M4A1 is still slightly better than the AK-74. According to this indicator, it is something between the AK-74 and M16A1, but much closer to the AK-74. At the same time, for a number of other important indicators, the M4A1 loses slightly to the AK-74. In general, probably, they can be considered approximately equivalent.
            Quote: aws4
            do you really think that aka74 is just a deliberately spoiled m16a1

            Not knowingly spoiled, but knowingly weakened. At the same time, as a result of weakening, the main performance characteristics were worsened. Consciously. Otherwise, it was impossible to ensure the accuracy of automatic fire. "School of Soviet designers of small arms", in contrast to the "slop American", to ensure the balance of mechanics then was not able to. I had to go to such compelled step.
            Quote: aws4
            if there was a goal to surpass then we went on a different path starting with the cartridge itself

            The goal was to surpass. She was, is and will be. There were no such opportunities.
            1. aws4
              aws4 15 December 2015 23: 29 New
              +2
              I wrote the answers to your letters for a long time but in the end I just didn’t dare, I realized that it’s just useless .... sorry but it feels like you live in your fictional world of weapons, where you yourself come up with the lines and the development of certain models ... especially I was struck by - (And the fact that some kind of foolish person instead of M16A4 "for convenience" dragged only M4A1 on special operations, that's enough for them everywhere) you probably would have done differently in your imaginary world ... sorry, I can’t discuss further with you Yes, and I have every right to do so after you ignored the questions I asked earlier ... I sincerely wish you to at least get out of the Internet and go with this fool for a special operation .....
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. Droid
          Droid 15 December 2015 23: 30 New
          0
          Yah? The nobles writes ...
          The main was a comparative assessment of the effectiveness of firing from an AK74 assault rifle and from an M16A2 rifle. It consisted of two parts - experimental and theoretical. Experimental, on the frequency of hitting the target number 8 when shooting in short bursts, showed:
          1. when shooting while lying down, the AK74 and M16A2 are almost equivalent;
          2. when shooting while lying with your hand, the AK74 is 1,48 times better;
          3. when shooting from a standing position, the AK74 is better 1,2 times.
          The theoretical calculation of the effectiveness was carried out taking into account the results of accuracy of fire:
          1. when firing a single fire lying from an emphasis, accuracy from M16A2 is 1,44 times better;
          2. when firing in short bursts, accuracy from an AK74 assault rifle is better (by area) than from an M16A2 rifle: lying down from the stop - 2,5 times, lying down from a hand - 1,25 times, standing up from a hand - 1,2 times .
          Calculations from the source data showed:
          1. when shooting with single shots lying down from the stop, the M16A2 rifle exceeds the AK74 assault rifle by 1,28 times;
          2. when shooting in short bursts, the AK74 submachine gun surpasses the M16A2 automatic rifle: lying down from the stop - 1,03 times, lying down from the hand - 1,22 times, standing up from the hand 2,05 times.
          In the report on the results of comparative tests, the conclusion was made: “The AK74 submachine gun exceeds the M16A2 rifle by 1,34-1,43 times in the frequency of hits when firing with automatic fire (experiment calculation), 1,28 times less in single shots due to the best 1,44 times the accuracy of the battle of ammunition SS109 from the M16A2 rifle "
          1. aws4
            aws4 15 December 2015 23: 49 New
            +2
            Sorry, I do not believe .... everyone agrees that the accuracy of the automatic shooting of the m16 is higher than that of the ak74 ... where can I read more about these comparative shootings ??? By the way, I respect it in caliber 5.45 and no doubt would have chosen it than M16 ... thanks in advance ....
            1. Droid
              Droid 16 December 2015 00: 06 New
              0
              Who is all this? Who has never conducted comparative firing?
              You can read in 4 volumes of Dvoryaninov. Specifically, volume 4 p. 33.
              1. aws4
                aws4 16 December 2015 01: 12 New
                +2
                thanks for the info ....
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • topical
    topical 10 December 2015 12: 07 New
    -21
    Quote: Per se.
    Fedorov noted precisely such a caliber as the most optimal for a new weapon.

    What should I do. The whole world was not keeping up, and only the “ensign” was keeping up. It happens.
    Quote: Per se.
    Unfortunately, all this was forgotten, our intermediate cartridges 7,62 and 5,45 have lower performance, and, together with the insufficient quality of gunpowder and capsule, they also reduce the performance of weapons.

    Low, no one argues. The cartridge of 7,6x39 mm should generally be attributed to the curiosities of world weapons. Well, what to do, that was the level of "professionalism" in this area in the USSR. No, it can be limitedly used for weapons for special operations. But for mass army weapons, as in the USSR, this is just laughter. Nowhere else in the civilized world has such a miracle happened.
    The cartridge of 5,45x39 mm is rather weak. He has no more flaws. It is weak not by chance, but because it was adopted by the AK-74. The weapon is poorly balanced (a balanced weapon is not easy to make, experience is needed here, and knowledge, not cheap show-offs like “what we don’t do will still be the best in the world”), so we had to loosen the cartridge for more or less heap automatic firing. As a result, the TTX received a good assault rifle (carbine) on an intermediate cartridge. And again with this “miracle” they thought of arming the army. Although, perhaps this is from hopelessness. After all, there was nothing better in the USSR then.
    Let me remind you that it is usually customary to arm an army in the world not with ersatz, which includes an assault rifle (carbine), but with a full-fledged weapon. Those. rifles (automatic, self-loading or bolts). The same M16A2-x (A2 and beyond) according to the TTX is an automatic rifle on an intermediate cartridge. Those. Despite the intermediate cartridge, this is a full-fledged army weapon. And this is its main difference from the AK-74.
    This is what the art of gunsmiths consists of, in order to get a TTX of more “older” weapons on a “junior” cartridge (ammunition is cheaper, savings). This is not the first time that Americans have. It is enough to recall the predecessor of M16A1 - Thompson's SMG. TTX automatic rifles were obtained on a pistol cartridge. In fairness, it must be said that only an experienced shooter could use these performance characteristics to 100%. An ordinary shooter could use Thompson's SMG, just like a submachine gun. Which is also very good, a pistol cartridge, not a carbine. But for this reason, Thompson's SMG army was not suitable for mass armament.
    Quote: Per se.
    For example, we have undeservedly forgotten RPD machine gun, after the alteration by the Americans under the cartridge of 6,8 mm, it significantly increased its characteristics.

    Give examples where this machine gun is mass-produced? Which armies was he armed with? No such examples? No. And will not be. The world left these calibers in the army at the end of the 30s of the last century. And she has no plans to return back yet. No reason.
    This is the market. Someone needed this machine gun under a "step-by-step" cartridge. Will do. And even for small things they’ll do it. But this does not mean that from this "the machine gun has significantly improved its characteristics."
    1. saruman
      saruman 10 December 2015 12: 32 New
      24
      Quote: topic
      The cartridge of 7,6x39 mm should generally be attributed to the curiosities of world weapons. Well, what to do, that was the level of "professionalism" in this area in the USSR. No, it can be limitedly used for weapons for special operations. But for mass army weapons, as in the USSR, this is just laughter. More in the civilized world there was no such miracle anywhere. The cartridge of 5,45x39 mm is rather weak. He has no more flaws. It is weak not by chance, but because it was adopted by the AK-74. The weapon is poorly balanced (a balanced weapon is not easy to make, experience is needed here, and knowledge, not cheap show-offs like “what we don’t do will still be the best in the world”), so we had to loosen the cartridge for more or less heap automatic firing. As a result, the TTX received a good assault rifle (carbine) on an intermediate cartridge. And again with this “miracle” they thought of arming the army. Although, perhaps this is from hopelessness. After all, there was nothing better in the USSR at that time. Let me remind you, it is customary to arm an army in the world not with the ersatz, which includes an assault rifle (carbine), but with a full-fledged weapon. Those. rifles (automatic, self-loading or bolts). The same M16A2-x (A2 and beyond) according to the TTX is an automatic rifle on an intermediate cartridge. Those. Despite the intermediate cartridge, this is a full-fledged army weapon. And this is its main difference from the AK-74. This is the art of gunsmiths in order to get a TTX of more "older" weapons on a cartridge of the "younger" (ammunition is cheaper, savings). This is not the first time that Americans have. It is enough to recall the predecessor of M16A1 - Thompson's SMG. TTX automatic rifles were obtained on a pistol cartridge. In fairness, it must be said that only an experienced shooter could use these performance characteristics to 100%. An ordinary shooter could use Thompson's SMG, just like a submachine gun. Which is also very good, a pistol cartridge, not a carbine.

      Lord I have not read such nonsense for a long time.
      1. Vladimirets
        Vladimirets 10 December 2015 12: 45 New
        +9
        Quote: saruman
        I have not read such nonsense for a long time.

        What are only
        Quote: topic
        submachine gun carbine.

        Quote: topic
        cartridge pistol, not a carbine.

        laughing
        1. topical
          topical 10 December 2015 13: 19 New
          -14
          Quote: Vladimirets
          What are only

          You don't know that either? And then what do you know if you do not know basic things? Basics. It is impossible to learn to read without knowing the letters. This is about you and the shooter.
          1. Vladimirets
            Vladimirets 10 December 2015 14: 02 New
            16
            Quote: topic
            You don't know that either? And then what do you know if you do not know basic things? Basics.

            I know a submachine gun, I know a carbine, a submachine gun, an assault rifle, an assault rifle, a rifle. Often the boundaries between these individual terms are blurred, some types are very similar to others or simply are, in fact, synonyms. But the phrase "submachine gun carbine" I hear for the first time. Particularly impressed was the assignment of this term to Thompson's PP. yes Also, the "basics" you include, apparently, a "carabiner" cartridge. I’ll tell you a secret that the cartridges, as it happened, are pistol, rifle and intermediate. They didn’t think of “carabiner” ones.
            Quote: topic
            rifleman.

            And also about babaching, shmaling, bumps and trellises. yes Other moments of your thoughtful comments even make out laziness.
            1. topical
              topical 10 December 2015 16: 56 New
              -8
              Quote: Vladimirets
              I know a submachine gun, I know a carbine, a submachine gun, an assault rifle, an assault rifle, a rifle.

              So what? You do not know the types of ammunition. The carabiner cartridge makes you cheek. Yes, he was not released in the USSR. But this does not mean that he was not in the world.
              Besides, you don’t know what a carbine is. In Russian, there is not even a special term. And the word rifle is called a shortened rifle (short rifle). Still would. After all, a carbine cartridge and weapons on it (carbine) have never been produced in Russia and the USSR. And not available.
              You generally know a little if you read only Soviet authors. Because they, in turn, knew little about the gunner. The same applies to the "glorious Soviet designers."
              Quote: Vladimirets
              But the phrase "submachine gun carbine" I hear for the first time.

              Automatic weapons of a certain rate of fire on a carbine cartridge (in the USSR and Russia it was not produced and is not produced). An example is the American M2 or Cristobal M2 from Kirali. True, Kirali and his Danuvia 45M called a submachine gun. But he was exaggerating. Danuvia is rather a PP overgrowth. In other words, one can argue about Danuvia.
              Quote: Vladimirets
              Particularly impressed was the assignment of this term to Thompson's PP.

              Regarding Tommy-gan, then on TTX (this I emphasize and emphasize) this is SMG. A small machine gun, literally translated. This translation is quite correct, but with the caveat in the hands of an experienced user. Because Tommy Gang’s external (non-wound) ballistics was not easy. In the hands of an inexperienced user TTXThis is a typical submachine gun. All because of the same external ballistics. Despite the fact that Tommy-gun has a pistol cartridge. This is generally a purely European bauble, to tie everything to the type of cartridge. The Yankees are tied to the final TTX. And they are right, not Europeans. It’s important not to shoot anything, the final result is important.
              Quote: Vladimirets
              I’ll tell you a secret that the cartridges, as it happened, are pistol, rifle and intermediate. Before the "carabiner" somehow did not think of

              So I say, you don’t even know the basics. Take an interest in even the most common carabiner cartridge .30 Carbine (7.62 × 33mm). Will be surprised, they, like caramel M & M, still exist.
              And when someone begins to engage in free enlightenment, you call it nonsense and minus it, trying to shut up his mouth. Shut up, so what? You won’t even know the basics.
              Yes, there you go. This is the very first in the world and the greatest "Fedorov assault rifle" according to the technical characteristics of a figovy submachine gun. What do we have when we get the TTX of the "junior" weapon on the "senior" cartridge? We have a complete design failure. Somehow like this.
              1. Vladimirets
                Vladimirets 10 December 2015 18: 28 New
                +3
                Quote: topic
                Take an interest in even the most common carabiner cartridge .30 Carbine (7.62 × 33mm).

                Yes, I know about this cartridge, only, in fact, it is not "the most common", but in fact the only serial. I'm not talking about design prototypes and weapons for them. And I also know about the M1 with its variations. In terms of its performance characteristics, M1 is almost equal to PPSh, only much easier. And you apparently took your very free name "carbine" from the English name "Carbine"? Therefore, people ask what kind of cartridge this is, because there is no universally accepted such concept? So write about a particular cartridge. Otherwise, for example, .308win can be called "Winchester."
                Quote: topic
                Automatic weapons of a certain rate of fire on a carbine cartridge (not manufactured and not manufactured in the USSR and Russia

                Are you not surprised that now in the army there are no such cartridges at all, despite the fact that they are so wonderful? After all, in fact it is a pistol magnum.
                Quote: topic
                This is generally a purely European bauble, to tie everything to the type of cartridge. The Yankees are tied to the final TTX. And they are right, not Europeans.

                Something you have here on the heap: cartridges, TTX. request What is the Yankee right about here?
                1. topical
                  topical 13 December 2015 07: 09 New
                  0
                  Quote: Vladimirets
                  but in fact the only serial.

                  No, the most common. And weapons on carabiner cartridges (carbines that are carbine) are not very common in the world. Like ammo.
                  During the Second World War, M1 was tested in the USSR, and thought to be adopted. The fact is that in the USSR (such a curiosity), where they never knew a weapon like carbine, a cartridge case from a carbine cartridge was serially produced. And the sleeve, this is almost a ready-made cartridge. Therefore, there would be no problems with ammunition. But it did not grow together. If they wanted to replace the PCA, then it is a pity that it did not work out. A completely different weapon, according to their performance characteristics.
                  Quote: Vladimirets
                  In terms of its performance characteristics, M1 is almost equal to PPSh, only much easier.

                  Do not make me funny. How can you compare M2 with PPSh? Well, do not write nonsense, for God's sake.
                  Quote: Vladimirets
                  Therefore, people ask what kind of cartridge this is, because there is no universally accepted such concept?

                  Do you know, describe to us the range of cartridges for small arms? Open our eyes, as they say. The same cartridge 7,62x33 mm, which one? Pistol? Which gun is used? Not used? Then, in which assault rifle? M2, is this an assault rifle, or not? And for example Cristobal M2? Not pulled by an assault rifle? Then what do you think? Got stuck? Well, here it is. Sit, think about it. Winchester, damn it.
                  Quote: Vladimirets
                  Are you not surprised that now in the army there are no such cartridges at all, despite the fact that they are so wonderful?

                  They are not miraculous. They are just what they are. And they have nothing to do in the army. This ammunition and weapon is not for the army. Why did the Americans put them into the army at one time, I understand. But it was a necessary measure.
                  Quote: Vladimirets
                  After all, in fact it is a pistol magnum.

                  No. Classic pistols of this power do not exist. A person can not stand such returns, sound and flash. Today there are pistols of this power with a special gas vent. But this is no longer a classic, moreover, a rarity.
                  But such cartridges Magnum, they are precisely carbine, not pistol. Just used in exotic pistols. And there are carbines on such cartridges. This is the main weapon under them. Pistols, these are "cowboy show-offs."
                  Quote: Vladimirets
                  What is the Yankee right about here?

                  In that they evaluate weapons according to the final result. And not by what cartridge is used in it.
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. Victor Demchenko
            Victor Demchenko 10 December 2015 16: 17 New
            +6
            Quote: topic
            Quote: Vladimirets
            What are only

            You don't know that either? And then what do you know if you do not know basic things? Basics. It is impossible to learn to read without knowing the letters. This is about you and the shooter.

            another troll? probably. it’s a troll, with show-offs and a pond to the impudent type: I know everything, and you are kazly without horns and no mind. Interesting, but have you ever held a barrel in your hands besides books? or everything is clear from books, but why keep ishcho and barrel? lol
            1. topical
              topical 10 December 2015 16: 33 New
              -8
              Quote: Victor Demchenko
              another troll?

              Troll. Explicit troll. If someone and something, unlike you, knows, this is a troll. Previously, these were called "enemies of the people." But now times have changed, so only a troll. Till.
      2. topical
        topical 10 December 2015 13: 18 New
        -10
        Quote: saruman
        Lord I haven’t read such nonsense for a long time

        Your weak knowledge in the field of shooting is not at all a basis for evaluating other people's statements on this subject. Learn, then understand what is written. In the meantime, it's too early for you. Consider that information is not for you.
        1. avva2012
          avva2012 10 December 2015 15: 08 New
          +8
          Precisely, the information is not for you, it is for the psychiatrist.
          "Carabiner cartridge"! Let shoot from the anti-aircraft gun.
          1. Vladimirets
            Vladimirets 10 December 2015 15: 10 New
            +8
            Quote: avva2012
            Let shoot from the anti-aircraft gun.

            No, no, from an air defense pistol. yes
            1. avva2012
              avva2012 10 December 2015 15: 17 New
              +5
              And what is air defense? Incidentally, is not the Patron Military Hunter, inventor, junior warrant officer of Schnapps?
          2. topical
            topical 10 December 2015 17: 49 New
            -4
            Quote: avva2012
            "Carabiner cartridge"! Let shoot from the anti-aircraft gun.

            Better read some book. Throw your Murzilka magazines.
        2. saruman
          saruman 10 December 2015 18: 28 New
          +5
          Mr. topic. Tell me with weak knowledge in the field of "shooting", which samples of small arms and ammunition for them you held in your hands, and maybe shot from them? Do not be offended, but it seems that you shot only with a water pistol.
          Stop trolling, otherwise you get the impression that you are a pimple young man who only saw real weapons on the screen and did not even master Wikipedia.
          1. topical
            topical 10 December 2015 18: 38 New
            -4
            Quote: saruman
            Tell me with weak knowledge in the field of "shooting", which samples of small arms and ammunition for them you held in your hands, and maybe shot from them?

            Not even going to. Because it does not matter.
            Lord, to whom I explain. A person does not understand at all what ballistics is. He's trying to figure out what I shot. As if for understanding ballistics this has some meaning.
            Calm down, a lot of what shot. The smallest, sporty small gun. The largest is the Thunder gun. The rest is between them. Just about everything that happens.
            Quote: saruman
            Stop trolling, otherwise you get the impression that you are a pimple youngster

            You, when you have a false impression, are baptized. They say it helps.
            1. Vladimirets
              Vladimirets 10 December 2015 19: 42 New
              +3
              Quote: topic
              The smallest, sporty small gun. The largest is the Thunder gun. The rest is between them. Just about everything that happens.

              Damn, I’m even scared to imagine where you served, worked, fought.
              1. topical
                topical 14 December 2015 11: 36 New
                0
                Quote: Vladimirets
                Damn, I’m even scared to imagine where you served, worked, fought.

                Fearfully? You don’t wear underwear for an hour? And it looks like it. Somehow you are very fearful.
          2. topical
            topical 10 December 2015 18: 38 New
            -1
            Quote: saruman
            Tell me with weak knowledge in the field of "shooting", which samples of small arms and ammunition for them you held in your hands, and maybe shot from them?

            Not even going to. Because it does not matter.
            Lord, to whom I explain. A person does not understand at all what ballistics is. He's trying to figure out what I shot. As if for understanding ballistics this has some meaning.
            Calm down, a lot of what shot. The smallest, sporty small gun. The largest is the Thunder gun. The rest is between them. Just about everything that happens.
            Quote: saruman
            Stop trolling, otherwise you get the impression that you are a pimple youngster

            You, when you have a false impression, are baptized. They say it helps.
            1. saruman
              saruman 10 December 2015 19: 39 New
              +4
              Quote: topic
              Because it does not matter

              It is of great importance. Only practice defines and reinforces the theory. Therefore, many, excellent in theory, weapon models had to be painfully worked out empirically.
              Quote: topic
              A person does not understand at all what ballistics is.

              I am not a professor of ballistics. That's just ballistics - this is one of the many components that defines a weapon-ammunition system, and often not the most important one.
              Quote: topic
              You, when you have a false impression, are baptized. They say it helps

              Unfortunately, an atheist. Therefore, it does not help.
              Your post about the Semin-Elizarov 7.62x39 cartridge is something. I’ll tell you a secret that in your favorite advanced USA, the cartridges 7.62x51 and 5.56x45 are definitely a curiosity, as the alteration of hunting cartridges 308 WIN and 222 REM. Explanatory assault rifle under 7.62x51 did not work. And under 5.56x45 the praised M-16, I had to bring to mind more than 30 years.

              But the bottom line is that your terminology, as well as unambiguous assessments of weapons and ammunition for them, give you out as an ordinary amateur.
              Quote: topic
              The cartridge of 7,6x39 mm should generally be attributed to the curiosities of world weapons. Well, what to do, that was the level of "professionalism" in this area in the USSR. No, it can be limitedly used for weapons for special operations. But for mass army weapons, as in the USSR, this is just laughter. Nowhere else in the civilized world has such a miracle happened.
            2. saruman
              saruman 10 December 2015 19: 39 New
              0
              Quote: topic
              Because it does not matter

              It is of great importance. Only practice defines and reinforces the theory. Therefore, many, excellent in theory, weapon models had to be painfully worked out empirically.
              Quote: topic
              A person does not understand at all what ballistics is.

              I am not a professor of ballistics. That's just ballistics - this is one of the many components that defines a weapon-ammunition system, and often not the most important one.
              Quote: topic
              You, when you have a false impression, are baptized. They say it helps

              Unfortunately, an atheist. Therefore, it does not help.
              Your post about the Semin-Elizarov 7.62x39 cartridge is something. I’ll tell you a secret that in your favorite advanced USA, the cartridges 7.62x51 and 5.56x45 are definitely a curiosity, as the alteration of hunting cartridges 308 WIN and 222 REM. Explanatory assault rifle under 7.62x51 did not work. And under 5.56x45 the praised M-16, I had to bring to mind more than 30 years.

              But the bottom line is that your terminology, as well as unambiguous assessments of weapons and ammunition for them, give you out as an ordinary amateur.
              Quote: topic
              The cartridge of 7,6x39 mm should generally be attributed to the curiosities of world weapons. Well, what to do, that was the level of "professionalism" in this area in the USSR. No, it can be limitedly used for weapons for special operations. But for mass army weapons, as in the USSR, this is just laughter. Nowhere else in the civilized world has such a miracle happened.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. topical
                topical 12 December 2015 00: 19 New
                -2
                Quote: saruman
                Only practice defines and reinforces the theory. Therefore, many, excellent in theory, weapon models had to be painfully worked out empirically.

                Oh, how scientific. It’s a pity that is not true.
                Quote: saruman
                That's just ballistics - this is one of the many components that defines a weapon-ammunition system, and often not the most important one.

                Moreover, the most important thing. That would be nice to remember.
                Quote: saruman
                cartridges 7.62x51 and 5.56x45 - this is definitely a curiosity, as the alteration of hunting cartridges 308 WIN and 222 REM

                So army cartridges, they are also hunting. Only specialized. On the "game" of certain sizes. So, no funny thing.
                Quote: saruman
                Explanatory assault rifle under 7.62x51 did not work.

                Enchanting. I applaud while standing. One short remark, but you showed her that:
                1. Do not understand the difference between automatic and assault rifles.
                2. Automatic rifle chambered for 7.62x51 mm is impossible to do. Because this is against the laws of physics. Only a machine gun. Or self-loading with the ability to conduct automatic fire. Those. ersatz automatic rifle.
                3. An assault rifle on a rifle cartridge could be made only by goblins from fairy tales. Funny gnomes. All other inhabitants of the planet are well aware that this is nonsense.
                Quote: saruman
                But the bottom line is that your terminology, as well as unambiguous assessments of weapons and ammunition for them, give you out as an ordinary amateur.

                What to do, Gleb? What to do? He bored me. Everything is lost. All that is gained by excessive labor.
                Do not fantasize. If you wrote, it means that it is.
        3. The comment was deleted.
      3. Alf
        Alf 10 December 2015 22: 01 New
        +4
        Quote: saruman
        Lord I have not read such nonsense for a long time.

        And how do you like such a pearl?
        . To people, in January 1918 who committed the grave criminal offense under the laws of any time, an armed coup.

        Did the Bolsheviks swear a coup in JANUARY 1918? It is a masterpiece.
        You should not argue with such a "connoisseur" if a person does not know the basics ... I read his comments, this is nonsense, even Dr. Goebbels didn’t think of that.
        1. tropic
          tropic 11 December 2015 13: 04 New
          +1
          Quote: Alf
          Did the Bolsheviks swear a coup in JANUARY 1918? It is a masterpiece.

          They would be ashamed of their darkness and ignorance. And comments would not be written silly.
          January 6, 1918 deputies of the Constituent Assembly found the doors of the Tauride Palace locked. At the entrance stood a guard with machine guns and two light artillery pieces. Security said there would be no meeting. On January 9, the All-Russian Central Executive Committee issued a decree on the dissolution of the Constituent Assembly, adopted on January 6.
          January 18, 1918 The Council of People's Commissars adopts a decree ordering that all references to the Constituent Assembly be removed from existing laws. On January 18 (31), the III All-Russian Congress of Soviets approved the decree on the dissolution of the Constituent Assembly and decided to remove from the legislation indications of its temporary nature ("until the convocation of the Constituent Assembly"). Those. all reservations about the grin were discarded, and the Bolsheviks began an open seizure of power.
          Thus, from January 6 to January 18, 1918 the only legitimate authority in the country, the Constituent Assembly, was dissolved, and the Bolsheviks carried out a coup d'etat. As a result of this coup in the country, the Civil War began.
          Elementary things, but you do not know them. I should be ashamed of my ignorance. However, the impression is that there are such an absolute majority.
          An amazing site. Where ignoramuses and empty throats can easily shut up people who know something. Just a reserve of ignorance.
        2. tropic
          tropic 11 December 2015 13: 04 New
          +1
          Quote: Alf
          Did the Bolsheviks swear a coup in JANUARY 1918? It is a masterpiece.

          They would be ashamed of their darkness and ignorance. And comments would not be written silly.
          January 6, 1918 deputies of the Constituent Assembly found the doors of the Tauride Palace locked. At the entrance stood a guard with machine guns and two light artillery pieces. Security said there would be no meeting. On January 9, the All-Russian Central Executive Committee issued a decree on the dissolution of the Constituent Assembly, adopted on January 6.
          January 18, 1918 The Council of People's Commissars adopts a decree ordering that all references to the Constituent Assembly be removed from existing laws. On January 18 (31), the III All-Russian Congress of Soviets approved the decree on the dissolution of the Constituent Assembly and decided to remove from the legislation indications of its temporary nature ("until the convocation of the Constituent Assembly"). Those. all reservations about the grin were discarded, and the Bolsheviks began an open seizure of power.
          Thus, from January 6 to January 18, 1918 the only legitimate authority in the country, the Constituent Assembly, was dissolved, and the Bolsheviks carried out a coup d'etat. As a result of this coup in the country, the Civil War began.
          Elementary things, but you do not know them. I should be ashamed of my ignorance. However, the impression is that there are such an absolute majority.
          An amazing site. Where ignoramuses and empty throats can easily shut up people who know something. Just a reserve of ignorance.
      4. topical
        topical 14 December 2015 11: 34 New
        0
        Quote: saruman
        Lord I have not read such nonsense for a long time.

        You generally do not make sense to read. Only spoil your eyes. You are not able to understand where the truth is, and where the lies of "sofa designers."
      5. The comment was deleted.
    2. tolancop
      tolancop 10 December 2015 18: 26 New
      +5
      "... A cartridge of 7,6x39 mm should generally be attributed to the oddities of world armaments. Well, what to do, that was the level of" professionalism "in this area in the USSR. No, it can be limitedly used for weapons for special operations. But for mass army weapons "like in the USSR, it’s just a laugh. There wasn’t such a miracle anywhere in the civilized world ..."
      I believe that for those who "flew" from this "curiosity", the opinion was very different from yours.
      1. topical
        topical 10 December 2015 18: 31 New
        -5
        Quote: tolancop
        I believe that for those who "flew" from this "curiosity", the opinion was very different from yours.

        I assure you that those who have flown from a slingshot into the eye are also not laughing. Will you take a slingshot into service?
        1. tolancop
          tolancop 10 December 2015 20: 43 New
          +2
          Why not? Cheap, lightweight, compact and silent weapon. To the attack with a cry of "Urya !!!" you won’t go, but for a specific application it can be indispensable. And the ancient bow, too, by the way.
          Any weapon is a tool. Suitable tool for work - it means good. Not suitable - the master is bad.
          1. topical
            topical 14 December 2015 11: 50 New
            0
            Quote: tolancop
            Any weapon is a tool. Suitable tool for work - it means good. Not suitable - the master is bad

            You confuse "any weapon" with army weapons. Army weapons have a very clear framework and criteria. If a weapon does not meet these criteria, but is in service, then this is an ersatz of army weapons. Such weapons can be in the army, but at the same time it should not be the main one.
            In the USSR, this principle was almost never respected. And the Soviet soldier very often massively armed with ersatz. Here you can recall the PPSh / PPS since the Second World War. And the weapon on the cartridge 7,62x39 mm a bit later.
    3. aws4
      aws4 15 December 2015 03: 11 New
      +3
      Well, here you are frankly misleading by saying that 5.45x39 was made under ak74 which is poorly balanced ... anyone who knows at least a little how it happened knows that the cartridge was originally created, shots were made from the barrels in order to determine suitable indicators and after this cartridge was announced a competition in which for some reason won ak74 .... why ak74 ??? this is another topic as well as why 5.45x39 ... well, certainly it wasn’t done under ak ... please do not be fooled)))))))))))
      1. topical
        topical 15 December 2015 14: 42 New
        0
        Quote: aws4
        mislead by saying that 5.45x39 was made under ak74 which is poorly balanced ...

        Are you hinting that you first adopted a cartridge, and then weapons for it? With new cartridges this does not happen. He wails that the new weapon is being taken under the old cartridge. But in the case of new cartridges, this is nonsense.
        Of course, there was some kind of “stove”. As we know it for the same 7,62x39 mm (at first it was different). But then, as the cartridge adapts to a specific weapon, the cartridge changes. The same with 5,45x39 mm. Cartridge and weapons, this is a comprehensive tool. And separately from each other they are not accepted into service. Except as described above.
        Quote: aws4
        please don't be fooled

        Less fervor. It is appropriate for sexual exercises. But not in discussions.
        And in general, study what priorities AK-47 did, and under which ones, AK-74. They are different, if that.
    4. aws4
      aws4 15 December 2015 03: 29 New
      +2
      and yet, please, if it doesn’t complicate you, provide Thomson's performance characteristics ... if you can ballistics, accuracy- scatter at different distances .... compare with what I have))))))))))))))) ah yes just please don’t just have to refer to the unique accuracy of the automatic fire later)))))) really looking forward ... thanks in advance !!!!
      1. topical
        topical 15 December 2015 14: 50 New
        0
        Quote: aws4
        if possible ballistics

        Here is the simplest. DPV:
        1. on the "head" - 135m.
        2. according to the GF - 150m.
        3. According to Rost.F - 205m.
        The effective defeat range is 425 m. As you can see, “extracting” it at 100% was not easy. It was necessary to be able. This flaw was fixed on the M16A1.
  • topical
    topical 14 December 2015 11: 28 New
    0
    Quote: Per se.
    Fedorov noted precisely such a caliber as the most optimal for a new weapon.

    If he still understood something in this ...
    Quote: Per se.
    our intermediate cartridges 7,62 and 5,45 have lower performance, and coupled with the insufficient quality of gunpowder and capsules, the performance of weapons is also reduced

    And if you still understood something in this ...
    Quote: Per se.
    For example, we have undeservedly forgotten RPD machine gun, after the alteration by the Americans under the cartridge of 6,8 mm, it significantly increased its characteristics.

    Wah! We will dwell on this key phrase in more detail. Compare two versions of the same product:
    1. The return on the product in the caliber of 6,8 mm is 104,5% of the return on the product in its native cartridge. Not so much more. Hollowing in the shoulder will, of course, be noticeably stronger. But we will make a discount on the fact that this is a machine gun.
    2. Rate of fire. Everything is much worse here. The rate of fire had to be reduced very well, by almost 10%. But they decided not to reduce it, they used a barrel with dales (see photo). Doly, this is very good. At the shooting range. But in the field, it’s far from very much. Because they have a habit of clogging up dirt. And, thus, do not increase, but further reduce the rate of fire. Or they should be cleaned often enough. Draw your own conclusions.
    3. The effective defeat range has not changed much. It was 330 m, it became 335 m. That is, one that the other is simply not suitable for a normal army. Approximately equivalent. May find application somewhere in police special forces.
    4. There is an advantage. This is the bullet penetration. Here, a bullet with a caliber of 6,8 mm leaves no chance of a three-line.
    I also want to note that in the above excerpt half of the figures are taken from the bulldozer. "To heighten the effect." And not true.
    Separately, I want to note that the barrel with dales and other tricks went into action in weapons, the effective range of which is only 335 m. And what will happen if they want to bring this range to normal for an army automatic weapon (~ 440 m). What methods can do this? Right, no ordinary. Unless, water-cooled. True, there is another option with thermosiphon cooling. But they can’t reach the range of 440 m. Therefore, make a normal army machine gun in caliber 6,8 mm (classic cartridge) impossible. The laws of physics are against. And in the caliber of 6,5 mm, even more so.
    I write, I write "sofa designers", and to them, like peas on a wall. And world practice is not a decree for them. "They all know better." And they don’t want to know anything else.
  • avva2012
    avva2012 10 December 2015 07: 39 New
    +6
    All work was carried out on the bare enthusiasm of the authors, without financial, theoretical and organizational support of the state. In our country now, people like to remember how good it was in tsarist Russia, and if it weren't for the villains of the Bolsheviks ... I read the book “Weaponsmiths", a Soviet author, unfortunately, I do not remember the name. There, it was perfectly described what difficulties the inventors faced. If, who knows, tell me. It would be useful for my son to read, too.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 10 December 2015 07: 59 New
    11
    Fedorov became a pioneer in the creation of hand-held automatic weapons, anticipating the entire course of the history of the XNUMXth century, one of which, of course, was the machine gun. and back in 1949, Fedorov’s book, On the Date of the Appearance of Artillery in Russia, was published, in which he relates the first use of artillery in Russia to 1382. In addition, he wrote two books about the "Word on Igor's Regiment", which he analyzes from a military point of view ... These books are now a bibliographic rarity ... I read in my childhood, I had a neighbor .. A talented person, talented in everything .. . Thank..
  • bionik
    bionik 10 December 2015 08: 11 New
    0
    When deciding to resume production of the Fedorov assault rifle, they decided to transfer it under the Japanese 6,5x50SR Arisaka cartridge, which had similar characteristics to the Fedorov cartridge. In the Russian army, these cartridges were already in significant quantities. They were purchased along with Japanese Arisaka rifles (s)..Rifle Arisaka Type 38 or Arisaka mod. 1905 - Japanese infantry rifle during the Russo-Japanese, First and Second World Wars with manual reloading. In 1894, the Japanese army began work on replacing obsolete rifles of the Murat system. At the head of the commission responsible for the development of the new rifle was Colonel Narioke Arisaka. In 1897, a new Type 30 rifle and a 6.5 mm cartridge under it (6.5x52SR) were adopted by the Imperial Army of Japan. According to the experience of the Russo-Japanese War of 1905, the Japanese decided to improve the rifle while maintaining the cartridge. Since 1906, the Arisaka Type 38 infantry rifle, and then carbines at its base, began to come into service with the Japanese. Based on the experience of the campaign in Manchuria, the Japanese came to the conclusion about the insufficient lethal action of the cartridge 6.5x52SR, as well as its low applicability in machine guns. Therefore, in the late 1930s, the Japanese developed a new cartridge 7.7x58, which actually was an English cartridge .303, but with a sleeve without a hem.
    1. topical
      topical 10 December 2015 10: 44 New
      -13
      Quote: bionik
      Based on the experience of the campaign in Manchuria, the Japanese came to the conclusion about the insufficient lethal action of the cartridge 6.5x52SR, as well as its low applicability in machine guns. Therefore, in the late 1930s, the Japanese developed a new cartridge 7.7x58, which actually was an English cartridge .303, but with a sleeve without a hem.

      Those. quite specific knowledge on wound ballistics came to the Japanese already in the late 30s. And to some "sofa designers" these well-known "revelations" are not known to this day. Therefore, they passionately want to transfer weapons to a caliber of 6,5 mm. Calling it "promising."
      1. Massik
        Massik 10 December 2015 16: 03 New
        +8
        Wound ballistics ??? XM, I think you need to shoot at one hip from the AK47M with 100m, and at the other from the M16A2. Then you will gain absolutely comprehensive knowledge in this matter, and then the mention of this term is in place and not in place ....
        1. topical
          topical 10 December 2015 17: 58 New
          -10
          Quote: Marssik
          I think you need to shoot at one hip from AK47M with 100m, and at the other from M16A2

          Could you come up with anything smarter? It seems like nothing.
          You know the difference between AK47M and M16A2. If from the first QUALITATIVELY (not as regards, not through, etc.) to get (let's say you’re in the thigh) from 310-440 m, then there are a bunch of options for further developments.
          If the same is done from M16A2-x, then there are very few options. At almost 99,9%, you glue the fins right in place. This is called "high-quality army weapons."
          0,1% is usually left on ... Well, no matter what. You do not understand this. Yes, I'm not going to explain.
          1. Vladimirets
            Vladimirets 10 December 2015 21: 30 New
            +4
            Quote: topic
            You know the difference between AK47M and M16A2. If from the first one QUALITATIVELY (not regarding, will not penetrate, etc.) to get (let's say to your thigh) from 310-440 m, then there are a lot of options for further development of events.
            If the same is done from M16A2-x, then there are very few options. At almost 99,9%, you glue the fins right in place. This is called "high-quality army weapons."

            This is a 100% masterpiece. Probably, the poison of curare has such a miraculous quality.
            1. topical
              topical 12 December 2015 00: 00 New
              -2
              Quote: Vladimirets
              This is a 100% masterpiece. Probably, the poison of curare has such a miraculous quality.

              Yeah. Those. the fact that a bullet of an army weapon, having fallen victim begins to "work" there, you do not know. You probably belong to the category that they believe that a soldier’s carcass is not very different from a piece of paper from which a target is made at a shooting range.
        2. The comment was deleted.
  • Dimon-chik-79
    Dimon-chik-79 10 December 2015 08: 18 New
    +2
    Very interesting article!
  • bunta
    bunta 10 December 2015 08: 39 New
    +8
    Vladimir Grigoryevich was not going to have a military career. He wanted to get a liberal education. The penchant for literary creativity can be traced in all his works. All his books on historical and military-technical topics are written in magnificent and pure Russian language, which in itself deserves great respect. More often than not, books by professional historians abound in technical errors, and books written by techies are dry and boring. An exhibition dedicated to Fedorov, Degtyarev and Shpagin is now taking place in Izhevsk. In one of the stands, Fedorov’s letter to Detyarev with congratulations on the award of a state prize is demonstrated. This is a masterpiece of the epistolary genre. In our time, sometimes we can’t even find the right words congratulating friends on a simple birthday, we are limited to one phrase. And here is a whole page of text in neat handwriting. It is also known that Fedorov wrote poetry.
  • Amurets
    Amurets 10 December 2015 08: 53 New
    +2
    Alas and unfortunately, only with the creation of the SVD was it possible to create an acceptable model of a self-loading rifle chambered for 7,62X54R. The rest of the weapons created earlier were heavy and bulky. And this was the first to be established by V.G. weapons and ammunition, but also as a historian-researcher of weapons. Few people know about his magnificent work "Cold Steel".
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. topical
      topical 10 December 2015 11: 13 New
      -18
      Quote: Amurets
      unfortunately, only with the creation of the SVD it was possible to create an acceptable model of a self-loading rifle chambered for 7,62X54R. The rest of the weapons created earlier were heavy and bulky. And this was first established by V.G. Fedorov.

      How to install? Did he have scales alone? Was he the first to be allowed to weigh weapons?
      In fact, the same SVT was not heavy and cumbersome, but limited in legal capacity (if you use it according to unauthorized access). Or an expensive product with a low resource (if you use it so that it works).
      The multiple-charged automatic rifle on the bipods DP-27 was heavy and cumbersome (in the USSR it was pathetic, but mistakenly called a machine gun). But it had to be made heavier in order to provide a normal resource of use. Moreover, in the modernized version, the PDM had to be weighted even more, because DP-27 was flimsy. The designers of the Soviet school could not then make the product easier and have a normal resource. Apparently they didn’t know how. Missing the so-called "school". There are doubts about what it is even now. At least to knowledgeable people, “exercises with ingenious Kalashnikovs” in the 2nd half of the 20th century say a lot. Although a lot of time has passed since then, and much could change.
      1. 8 inches
        8 inches 10 December 2015 16: 55 New
        +2
        The multiple-charged automatic rifle on the DP-27 bipod was heavy and cumbersome (in the USSR it was pretentious, but mistakenly called a machine gun) .... how .... and even stupid Czechs and no less stupid British called the brand a machine gun .. there wasn’t you near .. couldn’t you open their eyes to them .. what kind of horror ..
        1. topical
          topical 10 December 2015 17: 01 New
          -9
          Quote: 8 inches
          .and stupid Czechs and no less stupid British called brand machine gun

          Respected. Compare TTX DP-27 and Bren. And then realize that the male genital organ is significantly different from the finger.
          1. 8 inches
            8 inches 10 December 2015 17: 11 New
            +4
            do not believe it, but unlike you, I know the difference. And to call a machine gun an automatic rifle on the bipod ... cool .. but to name it. why you came to this conclusion is not clear .. apparently for you there really is no difference between the male genital organ and a finger. it’s clear that you simply don’t own either one ..
            1. topical
              topical 10 December 2015 17: 13 New
              -4
              Quote: 8 inches
              and call a machine gun an automatic rifle on the bipod ... cool

              Learn the main difference between a machine gun and an automatic rifle. You need it. You do not know this.
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. gross kaput
      gross kaput 10 December 2015 13: 40 New
      +5
      Quote: Amurets
      The rest of the weapons created earlier were heavy and bulky.

      Oh how! and men don’t know! so for reference - SVT 40 weight with an empty magazine 3,85 long 1226 barrel 625, SVD - weight without a sight and with an empty magazine 4,31 long 1225, barrel length 620 mm.
      Figures themselves are able to compare?
      PS before you make another "discovery", at least use Google, but rather learn the mat.
      1. Massik
        Massik 10 December 2015 16: 10 New
        +5
        The multiple-charged automatic rifle on the bipods DP-27 was heavy and cumbersome (in the USSR it was pathetic, but mistakenly called a machine gun). But it had to be made heavier in order to provide a normal resource of use. Moreover, in the modernized version, the PDM had to be weighted even more, because DP-27 was flimsy. The designers of the Soviet school could not then make the product easier and have a normal resource. Apparently they didn’t know how. Missing the so-called "school". There are doubts about what it is even now. At least to knowledgeable people, “exercises with ingenious Kalashnikovs” in the 2nd half of the 20th century say a lot. Although a lot of time has passed since then, and much could change.
        Yeah, where are the Soviet designers there before the magnificent Tommy Gun and the rest of the magnificent American rifle from your words, which was not at all distinguished by a massive win in front of its classmates.
        1. topical
          topical 10 December 2015 16: 31 New
          -9
          Quote: Marssik
          Yeah, where are the Soviet designers there before the magnificent Tommy Gun and the rest of the magnificent American rifle from your words, which was not at all distinguished by a massive win in front of its classmates.

          I understood you. For some reason, you decided that you could at least in principle compare the Soviet and American schools of small arms. Well, keep making us laugh further. Have a good laugh.
          Just in case, I want to ask you one vaopros. Doesn’t it bother you that the Russian 9x19 mm cartridge The pair is equipped with a 5,3g light bullet? Although the standard NATO bullet weighs 7,82g. Sometimes 8,04g. This is probably not just done. This is a wake-up call. Therefore, I write that "I doubt the availability of a school for the design of small arms" even now, and not just in Soviet times.
          Yes, and where did she come from? There was no competition. There was no arms market. Lafa. Turn something on your knee, and Agitprop will take care of the rest.
          1. 8 inches
            8 inches 10 December 2015 16: 59 New
            +1
            But you are not embarrassed by the fact that comparing pistol cartridges is strange? In the USSR, pistols were not considered a necessary weapon. The police and as personal for officers. But this is not the fault of the gunsmiths, there is no order, there are no developments. Here and the whole layout.
            1. topical
              topical 10 December 2015 17: 06 New
              -7
              Quote: 8 inches
              in the ussr pistols were not considered a necessary weapon.

              And what weapons were they considered? Why then were they produced in such quantities? Why did they take it into service?
              Quote: 8 inches
              as personal to officers

              But what if the personal weapons of officers should not be capable? But what if the officer has to fight back from the enemy? And in his hands is just a TT or PM. Or some other silly APS? How then to be, than to fight back?
              1. tolancop
                tolancop 10 December 2015 20: 49 New
                +2
                Then the officer needs to carry a couple of grenades with him. What if a powerful pistol is not enough?

                For serious matters where you obviously have to shoot, an IMHO sensible officer will take an automatic machine as the main weapon. And the gun is needed to shoot the alarmist.
                1. 8 inches
                  8 inches 11 December 2015 00: 11 New
                  +3
                  I didn’t even answer him ... it’s paranoid with megalomania.
            2. The comment was deleted.
  • tolancop
    tolancop 10 December 2015 10: 17 New
    +4
    Quote: Amurets
    Alas and unfortunately, only with the creation of the SVD was it possible to create an acceptable model of a self-loading rifle chambered for 7,62X54R. The rest of the weapons created earlier were heavy and bulky. And this was first established by V.G. Fedorov ....

    Fedorov was the first to establish that all automatic weapons before the appearance of the SVD were heavy and bulky? Have respect for an outstanding person! And do not ascribe to him that which was not (or give an exact quote and source).
    And at the same time compare the weight and size characteristics of the SVD and SVT-40. SVT-40 is longer by as much as 6 (six millimeters), but lighter by 0,6 kg.
    However, I fully admit that you simply are not able to clearly state your thoughts.
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 10 December 2015 11: 54 New
      +2
      Quote: tolancop
      However, I fully admit that you simply are not able to clearly state your thoughts.

      Sorry! I incorrectly formulated my idea. Fedorov was the first to express his idea that the 7,62X54R cartridge is too powerful to create automatic weapons. This is Bolotin in the book “History of Soviet Small Arms and Ammunition”. There is this in the book of Nogaev about weapons designers. The mass and overall dimensions of the weapons in question can be found in the books: Beetle "Rifles and assault rifles", Bolotin in the history of weapons, "Victory weapons V. A. Degtyaryov."
      1. topical
        topical 10 December 2015 12: 11 New
        -8
        Quote: tolancop
        However, I fully admit that you simply are not able to clearly state your thoughts.

        Quote: Amurets
        Sorry, I misconceived my thought.

        Quote: Amurets
        Fedorov was the first to express his idea that the 7,62X54R cartridge is too powerful to create automatic weapons.

        And again, the idea is not entirely accurate. I don’t know how Fedorov or Nefodorov formulated it. But the correct thought is: "7,62X54R cartridge is too powerful to create INDIVIDUAL automatic weapons. "
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 10 December 2015 12: 51 New
          +3
          Quote: topic
          But the correct thought is: "The 7,62X54R cartridge is too powerful to create an INDIVIDUAL automatic weapon."

          This idea was not sounded in 1912 when Fedorov began to develop a cartridge of 6,5 mm caliber, but much later. Offhand, I don’t remember who offered to produce intermediate cartridges of 7,62x41, the first batches of cartridges were designated, but the proposal for a new cartridge came up in 1939. I know exactly what she sounded at a meeting with Stalin, when the question was raised about the self-loading rifles ABC-36, SVT-38. Mostly Fedorov; Degtyarev; Tokarev; Robe-hole prevented the hem or sleeve welt.
      2. gross kaput
        gross kaput 10 December 2015 14: 50 New
        +3
        Quote: Amurets
        7,62X54R cartridge is too powerful to create an automatic weapon

        The question is not in “power” but in the recoil momentum - the main idea of ​​Fedorov was to reduce the caliber and increase the lateral load on the bullet, you can get the same range and flatness as the standard Mosin cartridge but with a lower recoil momentum. As a result, the Fedorovsky cartridge was even longer than the Arisaki rifle cartridge, which, by the way, later made it possible to simply remake his rifles under the Japanese cartridge - by inserting a ring into the chamber.
        But in general, maybe it’s enough to already look for elephants in the forests near Moscow? According to the development concept, Fedorov’s automatic rifle is by no means an ammunition / assault rifle in the sense that we are used to putting in this name, I understand that after the war many Germans won’t start up a series of the first assault rifle and intermediate cartridge and therefore after the war AV Fedorov was "assigned" to the honorable role of "the first automatic machine in the world", it is now known that the first full-fledged automatic machine was created in France in 1918. Ribeirolem.
        In general, the result is a crooked mirror - on the one hand we stick out and try to pull Fedorov’s rifle on the machine along the way just mentioning in passing what he really should be famous for, as a matter of fact, the creator of the national weapons school, the author of many scientific works and studies, fortunately the manual The USSR understood the real role of Fedorov and promoted and awarded precisely for this and not for AF.
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 10 December 2015 15: 50 New
          +1
          Quote: gross kaput
          But in general, maybe it’s enough to already look for elephants in the forests near Moscow? According to the development concept, Fedorov’s automatic rifle is by no means an ammunition / assault rifle in the sense that we are used to putting in this name, I understand that after the war many Germans won’t start up a series of the first assault rifle and intermediate cartridge and therefore after the war AV Fedorov was "assigned" to the honorable role of "the first automatic machine in the world", it is now known that the first full-fledged automatic machine was created in France in 1918. Ribeirolem.

          I’m not looking for elephants in the forests near Moscow, I’m talking about something else. In his book “In Search of Arms” V.G Fedorov writes about the French, how they cherished their soldiers, leaving only machine gunners in the trenches. The saturation with automatic weapons of the troops of the allies of Russia struck him but shared Soyuznichki didn’t want to use light machine guns. Originally, when designing self-loading rifles, Fedorov planned to increase the density of fire, since the first machine guns were bulky and unreliable. Even the more or less compact Maxim appeared on Sokolov’s machine only in 1910. Yes, you’re completely right that Fedorov’s assault rifle is not an assault rifle.Samim Fedorov, he was seen as a weapon to strengthen the infantry, only the absence of light machine guns forced to adapt the machine as an aircraft machine gun and a tank machine gun.
          1. gross kaput
            gross kaput 10 December 2015 16: 04 New
            +2
            Quote: Amurets
            I'm not looking for elephants in the forests near Moscow,

            And this is not specific to you, it’s about the general tendency that we simply must be ahead of the rest, the “Porokhovschikov’s tank” and the submarine of Peter 1 can be attributed to the same elephants near Moscow, and much more, unfortunately, often sucking the championship of the controversial things, we forget where they really were the first - as an example, Taubin’s automatic grenade launcher - even if it wasn’t brought to the series - which incidentally was Taubin’s fault, or rather his tendency to quickly catch up with a new idea and cool off just as quickly as he didn’t - for which, incidentally, he suffered, although our conspiracy theorists continue to whisper about the terrible mortar lobby and the villain Nudelman. but nevertheless, despite all this, he was the first both in terms of the concept of an automatic grenade launcher and in the primacy of the embodiment of this concept in metal.
            1. Amurets
              Amurets 10 December 2015 17: 58 New
              0
              Quote: gross kaput

              And this is not specific to you, it’s about the general trend, according to which we simply must be ahead of the rest,

              Yes, we will never be everywhere and everywhere ahead of the rest of the world. What sometimes infuriates us is hatred. And abroad there are wonderful scientists, designers and weapons created there that can be better than ours. Therefore, we must soberly look at things and underestimate the enemy and overestimate ourselves. Therefore, I completely agree with you. In some ways, we are stronger, in some ways, our foreign partners are stronger.
  • moskowit
    moskowit 10 December 2015 12: 32 New
    +2
    The author was a little carried away, informing about the formation of the mouths of machine gunners ...

    "... The first combat use of the machine gun took place on the Romanian front, where special regiments of machine gunners were formed as part of some regiments. For example, at the end of the 1916 year, a special team of the 189 infantry regiment of the 48 infantry division received the 45 Xnumx-mm caliber Fedorov assault rifles and 6,5-mm caliber automatic assault rifles (an experimental model of the same constructor). It is interesting that in addition to the submachine gun’s calculation, the ammunition carrier was also included in the calculation of the new weapon. and optical sights, daggers-Bebutov, portable shields ... "

    Only one division is known ... His staff was such ...

    "... According to the proposed staff, the company was supposed to include three platoons: one with eight machine guns and two with 25 automatic rifles. In total, the company should consist of four officers, 159 lower ranks (including two junior gunsmiths ) and eight wagon horses with six carts (two cartridges and three household gigs, a camp kitchen) .In fact, three officers and 150 lower ranks armed with 45 rifles and eight 7,62-mm Fedorov machine guns went to the front. company also tries A small weapon repair workshop was set up.
    Carrying cases were attached to rifles and submachine guns. As Fedorov recalled, “the team was widely equipped with all new technical improvements: 1) optical sights and binoculars, 2) devices for firing due to closures, 3) portable rifle shields, 4) special bayonets-daggers based on the model of the Caucasian Cossack army. The team had a second set of trained shooters to replenish the loss, and the spare shooters were armed with Mauser automatic pistols. "" According to S. Fedoseyev, field rifle shields were systems of the Technical Committee of the Main Military Technical Directorate, optical sights - Hertz systems ordered by Obukhovsky the factory back in December 1914, the first 20 of such sights14 arrived in the company.Each submachine gun was equipped with 4 cartridge holders, 1 cartridge box, 1 leather bag with spare parts and accessories, 1 page with a Christmas tree shield. There is evidence that the steel helmets of Adrian 15 were transferred to the company .... "

    For those interested in details, the address is ... http: //rotmistr.wmsite.ru/glubina/formennye-mundiry-rossijskoj-imperator
    skoj-armii / osobaja-avtomaticheskaja-rota-general-majora
  • bunta
    bunta 10 December 2015 12: 49 New
    +4
    It is curious that in addition to the submachine gun, the ammunition carrier was also included in the calculation of the new weapon


    The German shooter with the MP-18 also relied on an assistant with the ammunition of 2000 cartridges.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 10 December 2015 13: 57 New
    10
    Quote: topic
    The cartridge of 7,6x39 mm should generally be attributed to the curiosities of world weapons. ... No, it can be limitedly used for weapons for special operations. But for mass army weapons, as in the USSR, this is just a laugh

    Do you watch TV? Or the internet? So I will open your eyes: no one in the world is laughing at about 100 million machine guns firing this cartridge.
    Quote: topic
    Nowhere else in the civilized world has such a miracle happened.

    And what is a "civilized world"? Are these those who are always right and in love? Even having launched the SMG Thompson submachine gun with an effective firing range of up to 70m? When the domestic PPSh had an effective firing range twice as high, it cost PPSh 5 times cheaper and was more reliable in use.
    Quote: topic
    The same M16A2-x (A2 and beyond) according to the TTX is an automatic rifle on an intermediate cartridge. Those. Despite the intermediate cartridge, this is a full-fledged army weapon. And this is its main difference from the AK-74.

    She has no differences and especially advantages over the AK-74. But this "full-fledged" rifle quickly loses its position to the M-4 carbine ie "poorly balanced," in your opinion. Why not enlighten? The marines and the Marines refuse ... They don’t understand the whole depth of the genius of the M-16.
    Quote: topic
    But the correct thought is this: "the 7,62X54R cartridge is too powerful to create an INDIVIDUAL automatic weapon"

    Well, you have not discovered America to anyone. In the USSR, they reached your “right” thought in the 30s, when ABC decided to replace it with self-loading. True SVT you also did not have to court. You, dear, try to bring really successful examples of shooting from the so-called. "civilized world" and then we will COMPARE them with domestic analogues. Give it a try.
    1. 8 inches
      8 inches 10 December 2015 17: 05 New
      +3
      or maybe he should not bring it and produce really successful examples of shooting? and then the whole world, including ourselves, will sprinkle ash on our heads and praise a genius named topic. although unlikely. he is from the breed of those husbands that is harmless to snakes. they eat but don’t bite, not to say even worse ....
      1. topical
        topical 10 December 2015 17: 08 New
        -6
        Quote: 8 inches
        he is from the breed of those husbands that are harmless to snakes. they eat but do not bite, not to say even worse ....

        Still, the teaching of light. But unlearned, great darkness. And not just huge, but aggressive. He knows nothing, and does not want to know anything. PPC.
        1. 8 inches
          8 inches 10 December 2015 17: 15 New
          +5
          a lot of good smart words. but as always out of business and out of place .. are you a bell ringer for common phrases?
          1. topical
            topical 10 December 2015 17: 39 New
            -4
            Quote: 8 inches
            a lot of good buzzwords. but as always out of business and out of place

            Learn, in short. Successes.
          2. The comment was deleted.
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    2. topical
      topical 10 December 2015 18: 15 New
      -5
      Quote: DesToeR
      As I will open your eyes: no one in the world is laughing at about 100 million assault rifles firing this cartridge.

      Already do not laugh. After all, they have not been released for a very long time. And do not give out to "friends" for promises of deliveries of bananas.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Even having launched the SMG Thompson submachine gun with an effective firing range of up to 70m?

      Who deceived you like that? The man from the TV screen in a strict galactus? Thompson's SMG effective range is 420 m. To make it a little clearer what is being said, this is about the same as the RPK-74. And noticeably more than the AK-74.
      Quote: DesToeR
      When the domestic PPSh had an effective firing range two times higher,

      You are funny. Do not understand the shooting at all. You confuse the range of effective fire with the range of actual fire. Effective fire range PPSh 30 meters. Range of actual fire, up to 260m. The effective / effective range of the SMG Thompson is 205 / 420m. What and where is PPSh 2 times higher?
      Quote: DesToeR
      cost PCA 5 times cheaper and was more reliable in use

      Cheap is always not expensive. But the return from her ...
      Quote: DesToeR
      carbine M-4 i.e. "poorly balanced", in your opinion

      Yes? Am I somewhere somewhere writing something about the M-4?
      Quote: DesToeR
      about your "right" thought in the USSR came back in the 30s

      Actually, I did not claim that this thought is mine. Other than that, this is obvious even without much thought.
      Quote: DesToeR
      You, dear, try to bring really successful examples of shooting from the so-called. "civilized world"

      You are welcome. Here is the ancient M1 Garand. And even more ancient Tommy Gan. And M16A2 is younger. Get it. If you can pick up analogues. laughing laughing laughing
    3. The comment was deleted.
  • SIT
    SIT 10 December 2015 17: 07 New
    +2
    "Yes, and the stocks of Japanese cartridges purchased during the First World War were not unlimited, and it was considered economically inexpedient to deploy their own production of such cartridges in the USSR."

    Ammunition for the Japanese Arisaka produced Petrograd cartridge factory in the amount of 200-300 thousand. per month. I found spent cartridges from them. There is no stigma on the bottom at all.
  • Fox
    Fox 10 December 2015 17: 42 New
    +7
    Romanov! Remove the clown topic ... impossible to read. Or is it a benefit of idiocy?
    1. topical
      topical 10 December 2015 17: 52 New
      -5
      Quote: Fox
      impossible to do. or is it a benefit of idiocy?

      Are you about yourself? Congratulations, very self-critical.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • tolancop
    tolancop 10 December 2015 18: 31 New
    +3
    topical, stop writing nonsense.
    If a sample of a weapon (ammunition) is unsuccessful, then it will not last long in service and its age will be short-lived. Conversely, if a sample has been used for decades, then it is obvious that it is successful, although it may have some disadvantages.
    But if you are a fan of Western weapons, then ... I wouldn’t want to, but it could happen if a hard minute comes, I wish you to be armed with it in a dirty wet field (forest, ravine, etc.) ... And us and AKM with a "curious" cartridge fit.
  • REZMovec
    REZMovec 10 December 2015 19: 38 New
    +2
    Admins! Au !!! ... A normal warning, but for trolls a wide road? Double standards, however.
  • SIT
    SIT 10 December 2015 20: 07 New
    +2
    topical
    "Who has deceived you like that? A man from the TV screen in a strict galactus? Thompson's SMG effective range of 420 m. To make you a little clearer what is being said, this is about the same as the RPK-74. And noticeably more, than the AK-74. "

    The AK74 has a direct shot range of 440m. Give your definitions of topics about which you speak, so that you understand. Did you shoot from Thompson yourself? There is a cartridge .45ASP. At 400m from it you can get one bullet from the store into a horse, and even then by accident.
  • Snail N9
    Snail N9 10 December 2015 20: 48 New
    +2
    There is such a series of programs “Invincible Warrior” http://onlainfilm.ucoz.ua/load/nepobedimyj_voin_1_2_3_sezon_smotret_onlajn/15-1-
    +0
    In these programs, the armaments of warriors of different countries and nations and of different epochs are meticulously restored, and the striking capabilities of these weapons, methods of their use, tactics of use, etc. are determined. So they shoot from Tommy Gan many times there. From the store 100 rounds of ammunition at a distance of 25 meters, a group target consisting of separate targets in the form of mannequins standing in a line at a distance of 1 meter from each other got only a few bullets. Moreover, very unevenly, some received only tangential wounds. And it's 25 meters !. Competition M16 with Kalashnikov 47 (7,62 mm) is also there and won “Kalashnikov” in all respects, especially in the power of cartridges which had an incomparably greater penetrating effect through obstacles and inflicted incomparably more severe wounds at a greater distance. I advise you to look.
    1. tropic
      tropic 11 December 2015 18: 04 New
      -1
      Quote: Snail N9
      There is an invincible warrior series

      The fact is that there are more objective methods for evaluating weapons.
      Quote: Snail N9
      Competition M16 with Kalashnikov 47 (7,62 mm) is also there and won “Kalashnikov” in all respects

      Movie. Anything can be there.
      Quote: Snail N9
      especially in terms of the power of cartridges which had an incomparably greater breakdown effect through obstacles

      The penetrating ability of the SS109 bullet is difficult to assess. Due to instability of behavior. For punching something there are special cartridges.
      Quote: Snail N9
      From the store 100 rounds of ammunition at a distance of 25 meters, a group target consisting of separate targets in the form of mannequins standing in a line at a distance of 1 meter from each other got only a few bullets.

      Apparently the hands of shooters grow from somewhere else.
    2. tropic
      tropic 11 December 2015 18: 04 New
      0
      Quote: Snail N9
      There is an invincible warrior series

      The fact is that there are more objective methods for evaluating weapons.
      Quote: Snail N9
      Competition M16 with Kalashnikov 47 (7,62 mm) is also there and won “Kalashnikov” in all respects

      Movie. Anything can be there.
      Quote: Snail N9
      especially in terms of the power of cartridges which had an incomparably greater breakdown effect through obstacles

      The penetrating ability of the SS109 bullet is difficult to assess. Due to instability of behavior. For punching something there are special cartridges.
      Quote: Snail N9
      From the store 100 rounds of ammunition at a distance of 25 meters, a group target consisting of separate targets in the form of mannequins standing in a line at a distance of 1 meter from each other got only a few bullets.

      Apparently the hands of shooters grow from somewhere else.
  • gross kaput
    gross kaput 10 December 2015 21: 00 New
    +8
    QUESTION TO MODERATORS
    gentlemen moderators, the following are clearly spelled out in the VO rules:
    "d) Have multiple accounts per visitor;"
    A fan of Kuptsov’s creations hiding under a nickname topical this account is already at least the fifth in a row - earlier it was logged in under the nicknames forwarder, turk, ZVZO, 190815 i.e. repeatedly rudely violated the rules of VO, actually the question itself is why is he still trolling VO participants? At one time, they banned me just because it seemed to the moderator that instead of the word I typed, I meant obscene, and this character trolls a huge number of forum users with the connivance of the moderators, is it time to ban it by IP?
    1. Alf
      Alf 11 December 2015 19: 27 New
      +1
      Quote: gross kaput
      QUESTION TO MODERATORS
      gentlemen moderators, the following are clearly spelled out in the VO rules:
      "d) Have multiple accounts per visitor;"
      A fan of Kuptsov’s creations hiding under the topic nickname has this account for at least the fifth in a row - he previously logged in under the nicknames forwarder, turk, ZVZO, 190815 i.e. repeatedly rudely violated the rules of VO, actually the question itself is why is he still trolling VO participants? At one time, they banned me just because it seemed to the moderator that instead of the word I typed, I meant obscene, and this character trolls a huge number of forum users with the connivance of the moderators, is it time to ban it by IP?

      Banned. There was a topic, it became tropic. Maybe it's time to close by IP?
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 10 December 2015 22: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: topic
    Already do not laugh. After all, they have not been released for a very long time. And do not give out to "friends" for promises of deliveries of bananas

    That's right, they don’t laugh, but buy in huge quantities, and in one of the countries the so-called "civilized world." Moreover, the share of purchases in this country of weapons on the AK platform is approximately 50% and mainly under the cartridge 7,62x39.
    Quote: topic
    Who deceived you like that?

    Ballistics pistol cartridge 45 caliber, well, the memories of the soldiers who had it in service.
    Quote: topic
    Effective fire range PPSh 30 meters.

    But someone wrote this opus on this site)))
    Quote: topic
    Yes? Am I somewhere somewhere writing something about the M-4?

    Well, write about the wrong M-4 in comparison with the M-16. What are you waiting for? About AK-74 you fill up with trills and then keep quiet yourself in a rag for some reason. Or will the template about the "civilized world" break?
    Quote: topic
    Here is the ancient M1 Garand.

    And what is genius? One of ... and no more, and not even the first in the world and not the first mass. Like it or not, but at the beginning of WWII, the most massive self-loading was the Soviet SVT-38/40. There was nothing genius in the M1 Garand, either in design or in combat capabilities. And the Germans did not copy their gever from Garand, but from our Sveta.
    PS You respected me for the "radiator heating system" of Japanese machine guns have not yet answered. They replaced Nick, but didn’t answer ... Although don’t bother, you will soon be dismissed under this nickname.
    1. tropic
      tropic 13 December 2015 23: 52 New
      +1
      Quote: DesToeR
      And what is genius? One of ... and no more, and not even the first in the world and not the first mass. Like it or not, but at the beginning of WWII, the most massive self-loading was the Soviet SVT-38/40. There was nothing genius in the M1 Garand, either in design or in combat capabilities. And the Germans did not copy their gever from Garand, but from our Sveta.

      As for Sveta, you’re certainly a dreamer. Believe all unreliable sources.
      And about "nothing special in combat capabilities", so take a look at the comparative tests of SZ Mauser, Garand and SVT-40. The results speak for themselves. 5,5 times more reliable than SVT-40 and 4,3 times more reliable than SZ Mauser. I hope now you will not indulgently give a damn about Garand.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 15 December 2015 15: 05 New
        0
        and where does this paper come from? 10% of misfires on SVT, it's just a blatant fake. I can type the text on a typewriter and take a picture with my phone.
        1. tropic
          tropic 15 December 2015 15: 16 New
          0
          Quote: 4-th Paradise
          10% misfires on SVT, it's just a blatant fake

          Of course, arrogant. After all, they still know that the Soviet means excellent.
          There would be a fake, they would write G41 (W). G41 (M), which is on the table, is a rare enough rifle. And why do such garbage?
          PS. Do you really think that in the USSR they could make an SZ rifle mechanically (and indeed in general) better than in Germany? And what else was better in the field of technology? It would be interesting to know.
          PPP. Just in case, I inform you that the normal NW rifle on a rifle cartridge in the USSR was created only in the 60s of the last century (SVD).
  • The comment was deleted.
  • tropic
    tropic 11 December 2015 15: 58 New
    0
    In fact, it was the first machine that was created in Russia

    If an automatic weapon is called an individual automatic weapon in this case, then yes.
    The Fedorov assault rifle became the forerunner of modern infantry automatic weapons.

    Which infantryman? Late Soviet? Then it's Colt M16A1. Even earlier, after 2MB, it was Sturmgewehr 44. The AF itself, in view of the apparent failure of the design, was not continued.
    Therefore, Fedorov simply continued to work, but already on the creation of a new weapon, this time under his own cartridge, a smaller caliber, which also had to solve the problem with the weight of the weapon.

    This decision was fatal. Caliber could not be reduced in any case.
    for comparison: the muzzle energy of the intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm is about 2000 J

    For complete in comparison, the d / e of the intermediate cartridge bullet is between 1000 and 2000 pounds. This is 1356-2712 J.
    At the same time, Fedorov’s cartridge provided a lower recoil momentum in comparison with the standard 7,62 mm rifle cartridge, had a lower mass and was much more suitable for use in automatic weapons.

    Fedorov then still could not know that the caliber of 6,5 mm can not be used. The last of it for army weapons back in the 30s of the last century, Italians and Japanese refused. 100 years have passed since then. And the author is already obliged to know such things. But it doesn’t seem to know either. Time writes such things.
    From the presented characteristics, we can conclude that the cartridge created by Fedorov

    Those. if a “non-native” bullet of the same caliber is inserted into the Mauser’s sleeve, is this called “create a cartridge”? Do you know how many such “creators” roam our planet? Those who survived such experiments willingly share "positive experiences."
    The initial flight speed of such a bullet was at the level of 850 m / s, which provided muzzle energy at the level of 3100 J.

    The high initial speed of the bullet allowed the designer to reduce the length of the barrel and reduce the size of the weapon to about one meter.

    In terms of combat qualities, Fedorov’s development turned out to be something in between an automatic rifle and a light machine gun.

    I do not like to read articles by non-knowledgeable authors. Is it just a laugh.
    Any person who is more or less versed in small arms issues, from the above figures, it is completely clear that in automatic mode IT could not work. Rather, it could, but not for long. It was possible to shoot mainly with single shots. Those. the maximum was a self-loading rifle with the ability to conduct automatic fire. Very rarely.
    In this case, wound ballistics of the bullet should be recognized as sufficient. Those. Fedorov should have removed the useless automatic mode and focus on fine-tuning the self-loading rifle. It could have turned out quite an ice if he had finished the mechanics. Then he would become famous in fact, and not in forums of dubious composition of the participants.
    To be continued
    1. tropic
      tropic 11 December 2015 16: 47 New
      0
      When deciding to resume production of the Fedorov assault rifle, they decided to transfer it under the Japanese 6,5x50SR Arisaka cartridge, which had similar characteristics to the Fedorov cartridge.

      Yes? This is news, so news. What is the commonality of characteristics? The Mauser cartridge with a non-native bullet (the author calls it Fedorov's cartridge) was a rifle. Cartridge Arisaka today is considered intermediate. What do they have in common? Caliber? But this is no reason to identify them.
      In other words, the Arisaka cartridge has nothing to do with the so-called Patron Fedorov does not have. This is an ammunition of different classes.
      At the same time, already released machines were going to be simply redone for the use of a Japanese cartridge by installing a special insert in the chamber.

      Yes of course. Products under the old cartridge were then transferred to observer pilots. Blowing was better in the air, so Fedorov’s products there could lead automatic fire. Thus, it turns out that Fedorov did something like a light aircraft machine gun.
      In terms of combat qualities, Fedorov’s development turned out to be something in between an automatic rifle and a light machine gun. For this reason, at the suggestion of the inventor himself, the development was asked to give a new name - automatic.

      From a previously developed Fedorov self-loading rifle

      It’s not bad for the author to decide whether the weapon was automatic or self-loading (i.e. semi-automatic). Perhaps he means the self-loading mechanism for the Russian three-ruler. But then you need to somehow express your thoughts more clearly.
      At the same time, according to the results of operation at the front, he received very good reviews: his reliability, accuracy of firing, and high strength of the parts locking the bolt were noted.

      No wonder. These users could only appreciate mechanics and ergonomics. To evaluate ballistics of all kinds, other people were required. They were not in Russia then. Moreover, they did not appear in the USSR very soon, obviously already after the 9x18 mm PM cartridge. And in some funny forums they are not to this day.
      If the external ballistics of AF (on the cartridge of Arisak) was quite good, then his wound ballistics was terrible. It was some kind of misunderstanding, not a weapon.
      When it was finally decided to place the order at the state-owned enterprise, handing it over to the Sestroretsk plant, it was too late, in February 1917, a revolution broke out in Russia.

      The author does not understand that unexpected happiness happened. Russia did not have to spend money on the production of ineffective weapons.
      introduced a namushnik; created a sector sight with a range of up to 3000 steps (2100 meters)

      Lord, what 3 km? The effective firing range of this product was only 180 m. And this with a powerful intermediate cartridge. A complete failure, in fact.
      To be continued
      1. tropic
        tropic 11 December 2015 17: 42 New
        -1
        Since the 6,5 mm bullet pierced somewhat smaller armor than the 7,62 mm rifle, the machine was decided to be discontinued, focusing on the development of a new automatic rifle.

        Wah! I have never met such an excuse. The author is a clear innovator. But the fact that the penetrating ability of an AF bullet is worse than, for example, the DR-27 bullet, he is right.
        However, an analysis of the only reliable source available today for operating the Fedorov assault rifle - a brochure that was issued in the Soviet Union in 1923, suggests that the design of the assault rifle was not flawed

        I have them. Only 82 points. With subparagraphs. We read, for example, p.77a. Non-ejection of the sleeve due to barrel overheating. Those. it was not possible to achieve a normal heat sink. And this is on the Arisak intermediate cartridge. I imagine what was on Mauser’s cartridge with a non-native bullet (Fedorov).
        Perhaps the main merit of Vladimir Fedorov was that he was the first in Russia to create a working (albeit not perfect) model of an infantryman’s individual automatic weapon - an automatic machine.

        Just in case, I want to remind the author that the AF recoil momentum on the Arisaka cartridge was 103% of the AK-47 recoil momentum. Everyone knows that already the second cartridge of the AK-47 flies, God knows where. Therefore, there are doubts about the possibility of using it effectively as an automatic weapon. Given the recoil momentum, even greater doubts are plagued by AF. No, of course, we can assume that Fedorov created a design that is more balanced than Kalashnikov. But why would this be so? In addition, why then AF in 1947. not re-adopted? Apparently the design was still worse than that of Kalashnikov. And then there’s also a big impulse of return. Therefore, automatic fire from the AF was possible to shoot. And about getting in, it's much harder with that. In addition, completely "no" effective range of fire. Draw your own conclusions.
        In fact, the AK-74 became the first more or less normal individual automatic weapon (without taking into account low-powered PP) in the USSR. Yes, he does not reach a full-fledged army weapon, an automatic rifle. But this is a very high-quality assault rifle (carbine), weapons a class lower. Now in Russia they are actively struggling to extend the individual automatic weapons on a 5,45x39 mm cartridge to the level of an automatic rifle. We will see what happens. It seems to me that without replacing the cartridge, nothing will work. And it’s not expensive, it’s very expensive. Therefore, the replacement, most likely, will not be. And there will be no automatic rifle yet.
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  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 11 December 2015 18: 05 New
    +2
    Topic would you write an article about you calculated "wound ballistics" and the all-round superiority of weapons from the so-called "civilized world." Plus, I’m really eager to find out how Thompson effectively shoots at 420m in your hands. If only in mortar, i.e. canopy? At least I would love to read. And anyone can be cast out in comments, but without the facts, your posts are zilch. But specifically on Fedorov’s assault rifle - what’s the name of at least one model of an automatic rifle that can conduct continuous automatic fire without loss of accuracy and, moreover, reliability? All these samples are primarily self-loading and only at critical moments of the battle, but at close range - automatic weapons. Even the so-called machine guns based on rifles with thickened trunks and those only in short bursts. Therefore, your statements say that the Fedorov rifle is not a rifle, 6,5mm cartridge is not a cartridge cause only surprise. Well, they shot from the AF with automatic fire, well, after all, 5,56 and 5,45 caliber ammunition are now in service. Do these have "wound ballistics"? And why ALL the gunsmiths of the world on both sides of the ocean are mistaken?
    1. topical
      topical 11 December 2015 23: 39 New
      -3
      Quote: DesToeR
      Plus, I’m really eager to find out how Thompson effectively shoots at 420m in your hands.

      Ask why there is a pillar. Plus, I'm not an experienced shooter from Thompson's SMG. Therefore, beyond 200 m at first, it makes no sense to shoot me.
      Quote: DesToeR
      But specifically about Fedorov’s assault rifle - what’s the name of at least one model of an automatic rifle that can conduct continuous automatic fire without loss of accuracy and, moreover, reliability?

      All. That product, which in fact is an automatic rifle, and not just called that, has a certain rate of fire. This is recorded in her TTX.
      Quote: DesToeR
      All these samples are primarily self-loading and only at critical moments of the battle, but at close range - automatic weapons.

      Do not tell tales. This is not automatic rifles that you describe, but self-loading rifles with the ability to fire automatically. Limited such weapons used to be produced too. Recall at least ABT.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Even the so-called machine guns based on rifles with thickened trunks and those only in short bursts.

      Are you hinting at the PKK? In vain. There is not only a thickened trunk.
      And then, drop these amateurish "short lines." There are quite accurate definitions of combat rate of fire. In shots per minute.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Therefore, your statements say that Fedorov’s machine is not a machine

      Did I say that? No. AF, this is an automaton. And PPSh, this is an automaton. These are all automatic, individual weapons. Only PPSh, this is according to the TTX figovki PP. And AF, this is according to the technical characteristics of the little figurative carbine rifle on the intermediate cartridge. A weapon of a lower class on a higher class ammunition. Somewhere in America, had the designer made such a “weapon,” he would have gone to McDonald’s to wash the floors. Forever. In the USSR, as we see, the opposite is true. But the final results in the field of shooting are also noticeably different.
      Quote: DesToeR
      Well, they shot from AF with automatic fire

      Vesko, you will not say anything.
      Quote: DesToeR
      today are in service with 5,56 and 5,45 caliber cartridges. Do these have "wound ballistics"? And why ALL the gunsmiths of the world on both sides of the ocean are mistaken?

      Clear. Apparently completely secret information that the cartridges and the principle of operation of such small-caliber weapons are slightly different, passed your attention. I will not go into details, but there is a different principle of action. Not classic. Therefore, the effectiveness of their bullets is estimated to be significantly higher than the classic ones. For example, Hatcher rates them with a coefficient. 1,95. I do not agree with him, because based on more complex formulas, he derived the coefficient for Hatcher's formula. 2,10. Those. a new type of bullet is approximately 2 times more effective than the classic. Therefore, do not be confused by their caliber. Yes, and do not be confused by the fact that the bullets in the victim’s carcass are operating. This is so. They do not just make a hole.
      1. aws4
        aws4 12 December 2015 00: 26 New
        +5
        good evening topic I have a few questions for you .... 1) what rifles (machine guns or pp) did you actually use? 2) and from which you shot but no more? 3) your age? 4) did you serve in the army, participated in hostilities where and what did you use there?
      2. aws4
        aws4 12 December 2015 00: 31 New
        +3
        5) your education, and if technical, which one specifically? by whom you work I won’t ask; this is already too much))))))) thanks! waiting for an answer!
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 12 December 2015 10: 39 New
          +3
          aws4 want to get to know him better? I have long guessed that this is not without a well-known Mr. Kuptsov himself, you can look at him “live” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6PL5G9BqKQ and this is his “immortal creation” for the faint of heart and people with a weak stomach do not read http://kupcov-ag.narod.ru/kupcov_p1.pdf
          In general, in weapons circles, a well-known person, only with a minus sign, schizophrenic - not in a figurative sense, but in the present, with periodic treatment in a hospital.
      3. aws4
        aws4 13 December 2015 23: 24 New
        +3
        ignored questions means scared .... then at least answer din you really Kuptsov?
        1. tropic
          tropic 14 December 2015 01: 20 New
          0
          Quote: aws4
          ignored questions means scared

          Young man, do you see such pretty little badges on his uniform? Read the rules for what they mean. As I understand it, you are in line. Wait when it comes. The gagging system of amateurs screamers operates.
          In addition, some of your questions have answers right on this thread. Read carefully.
          1. aws4
            aws4 15 December 2015 02: 03 New
            +2
            Thank you .... I’ll take into account some of your comments .... but at the expense of badges on shoulder straps, I don’t care anyway .... you really made fun of me, my dear)))))))))))))) )))))))))))))))))) oooooooooooooooooo I am already a senior sergeant))))))))))))))))))))))
            1. tropic
              tropic 15 December 2015 15: 29 New
              0
              Quote: aws4
              But at the expense of badges on shoulder straps, I somehow do not care

              Do you understand the meaning of what I wrote? I’m sure not. Read it again and try to understand.
        2. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 15 December 2015 15: 15 New
          0
          Quote: aws4
          then at least answer din you really merchants?

          It seems true, given that he did not answer the question, the modest simply
      4. aws4
        aws4 13 December 2015 23: 28 New
        +2
        T.US !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • aws4
    aws4 20 December 2015 22: 42 New
    +2
    But what does it mean? - You are not subscribed to the comments of this article.
  • bryachik
    bryachik 31 January 2016 23: 44 New
    0
    Friends, good day. Specially registered on the resource - could not bear it, the question is burning. Whatever I read about Fedorov’s assault rifle, it’s all the same: the talented gunsmith — Colonel Filatov — separate machine-gun companies — revolution — after the twenties to the warehouse — the Finnish war! And suddenly, I’m amazed at Fedorov’s assault rifle on YouTube, in an American propaganda film of 42 years of release, depicting a positive image of the Soviet ally. I'll find the link again. At the 12th minute (according to the scenario - the enumeration of the large and nationally diverse population of the USSR), I repeat, I am amazed to see this device in the hands of a certain northern hunter - in the sense of the indigenous peoples, the Mongoloid. Absolutely civil! The frame, respectively, is clearly pre-war. How?!
    Who knows what? Head boils a month already! Surely the device was transferred to some fur farms or hunters? If so - why?
  • bryachik
    bryachik 31 January 2016 23: 53 New
    +1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btfRA4Sj6r4
    The promised link. At 12:22. [Media = http: // https: //youtu.be/btfRA4Sj6r4? T = 729]
  • fitter71
    fitter71 30 March 2016 23: 22 New
    0
    when you read such articles, you remember how little you know the history of your country and YOUR people ... please do not smile - my professional interests are very far from weapons. so I draw knowledge from similar articles and ... comments :))