Military Review

Farewell "Mango"

99
The position of ammunition is much worse than before the Great Patriotic


How many artillery shells need to keep in reserve? This question must be answered not by production workers, but by the military. But I can’t hear them worry. The Soviet "defense industry" spoiled them, in its time it had prepared enough to last for a third world war.

Soviet strategists, remembering 22 June 1941, counted on various options for the coming war. Including such when the special period will not be and it is necessary to be at war that is, without waiting for transfer of the industry to military rails. In case of a positional war, all the factories were preparing for the production of military products. The so-called second departments ensured that technical documentation and emergency supplies of equipment and materials were in order. And the attitude to this until the collapse of the Union remained extremely serious.

Farewell "Mango"I remember that I was attracted to check the readiness of the Daugavpils Electrotool plant for production at a special period of NURS С-5. Personally, the chief engineer drove to departments, shops and warehouses, showing where and what is stored.

In the Tula Research Technological Institute (TNITI) there was a small department that was located in the same room, whose specialists did not get out of business trips related to checking the involved enterprises for readiness for war. Today there is only one man left. Not so long ago, he drove through our former factories. Only one of them kept the machines for machining the shells of artillery shells, did not throw them out onto the street, neatly moved them to the wall of the workshop, suspended them, covered them with film.

And when, for example, the director of TNITI complained at a meeting of shareholders about how much money is spent on depreciation of equipment maintained for a special period, the representative of the Ministry of State Property who was present advised: "And you declare it obsolete and sell it."

In Soviet times, they were preparing for any war: positional, nuclear, hybrid, guerrilla. What are we ready for now?

Everything that is available is gradually being drawn into military operations in Syria. The only aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov is in a hurry, periodically shooting Calibres delivered to positions almost directly from factory workshops, Tu-160, of which only a dozen and a half, arrive from the Volga. And this is understandable: if they took it, they must win. Well, how will the conflict happen more serious than the Syrian episode? Do we have someone who is counting on all the options for the development of events, or is the consumption of ammunition taken from the ceiling?

Bad example of india


So how many shells do we need? Before that terrible war, the well-known ammunition V.I. Rdultovsky addressed the government with a letter “On the defense of the country” in which he asserted that only in the first year of the war 100 million 76 – 107-mm caliber and 60 million larger ones should be stockpiled. Instead, 160 millions managed to lay in the stock of all 88 millions.

Nowadays, the situation with slug production is much worse: then it was on the rise, today - in a deep crisis. Both in the society and among the officials, the opinion has taken root that the Soviet "defense industry" has done so many shells that it will be enough for their age and still remain. And others believe that the shells are not needed at all.

Storage times are assigned by developers with a large margin. In 30-s, Vasily Grabin created a cannon for firing projectiles left from the First World War. In his memoirs, the famous designer wrote: "In artillery, the duration of ammunition storage was set to 25 years, and even after this period they must serve without fail."

Twenty-five years have passed since the day of the termination of the state order to shell plants. And what?

Once in India, they suddenly realized that armor-piercing and sub-caliber shells for tanks Russian production is sorely lacking, which leaves almost two sets per car. For some time, it was as if negotiations were even conducted with Israel, which, it turns out, is today occupying a position higher than Russia in the projectile market. They did not agree on something, and then the Indians in 2011 turned to us. In April 2014, Rostec (NIMI) signed a contract for the supply of 66 thousand BPC "Mango" and the organization of licensed production from the buyer.

I don’t know how the contract is being fulfilled: I didn’t ask THITI for machines made in India. And where else to get, except that the St. Petersburg technological chain to disassemble and send? In any case, Indian tanks are starving. Imagine how quickly these two ammunition sets will leave, if India has a war with someone from its neighbors. And our situation is more complicated, because we do not get out of military conflicts. And any of them is fraught with a big war.

What "Mango" give, it is not surprising - "Armata" focuses on the "guy." But this is a new production, and a large size, rather than required by the buyer.

At the same time, in the 2006 year, the German Gref's office intended to sell the state-owned TNITI stake, which owns all the ammunition technology, under auction.

155 mm alignment


For the "Guy" TNITI should provide machines for the new production of shells 152-mm shells. Here his TM is truly indispensable. Someone will object: they did the same shells during the war on what was. This is not at all true, and even not at all. Stalin sensibly used the pre-war Soviet-German treaty, which modern historians dislike so much. In 1940 – 1941, the Germans supplied us with 6430 machine tools, including the multi-cut GSAB-2 from “A. Wirth, designed for rough machining of shells in caliber from 100 to 250 millimeters, four-spindle special semi-automatic machines VGDm-1 and VGDm-2 for processing the ends of artillery mines (boring, face milling, threading SNNNXX and NTNNXX and NTNNXX and NTNNXXNHM) three-spindle thread-milling machines ADFG-Ш of “Hasse-Vrede”, designed for processing points and threading in the shell of the projectile, and others.

But even before that, machine tools had been supplied from foreign countries, for example, 1939 was received in one 3458 year. I think the lion’s share of them went to the production of ammunition. And half a century later, I met these machines in the shops of factories. Hitler did not think that the machines delivered would have time to serve the creation weapons our victory.

There is also a difference in the position of the production of the shell before that terrible war and now. Then we bought the necessary equipment from Germany, which was in confrontation with the rest of the West, but now it is a member of NATO and will not sell shell tools.

It is believed that the level of production of ammunition is determined by the state of the industry. And I would say: the level of production of one part - the shell 152-mm projectile.

This is the main artillery, and now tank, projectile. The main one, firstly, because it can destroy a serious fortification at a very decent distance, secondly, because it is the smallest projectile into which a nuclear charge is placed, and, thirdly, due to the fact that ammunition niche for distances of several tens of kilometers is much cheaper than a rocket.

It is also high time to think about the fact that in our age it is not possible to rely on electronics in everything. Today, the defense is reliable only when it relies on the god of war - artillery, provided with a sufficient number of shells.
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  1. corporal
    corporal 12 December 2015 07: 20 New
    +5
    That is, as I understand the author, we do not have enough machines? Or special departments at each production? Or stocks of shells in warehouses? Or all together?
    What did the author want to say?
    1. Onotollah
      Onotollah 12 December 2015 08: 01 New
      26
      Quote: Corporal
      What did the author want to say?

      At least offers to think.
      For example, the number of 3 (out of 7) Chinese military districts located in the immediate vicinity of the borders of Russia is a little more than 1. And Russia has 100 throughout the country. That’s why we don’t have enough.
      1. alicante11
        alicante11 12 December 2015 09: 15 New
        20
        For example, the number of 3x (from 7) of the military districts of China located in close proximity to the borders of Russia is slightly more than 1 100 000 people.


        So there are 1,5 billion of Chinese, and 140mln of us. And the length of our borders is many times greater. Not everything is measured by the number of “bayonets”. In our Far East, the cat cried. And the transport network is such that logistics north of the Trans-Siberian Railway for a more or less large group will be a nightmare.
        1. Lieutenant colonel
          Lieutenant colonel 13 December 2015 05: 14 New
          0
          In the Far East we have nothing to attack. And actually it was not. Or do you PULAD offensive divisions considered ?!
      2. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 12 December 2015 14: 49 New
        +8
        Quote: Onotolle
        .And Russia has 1 for the entire territory of the country. And think about what we lack.

        Think, don’t think, there’s just not enough population
      3. RDX
        RDX 26 December 2015 01: 55 New
        +1
        there is a nuclear weapon for this, i.e. , for cooling hot heads in countries where lips are rolled into our territories
    2. rkkasa xnumx
      rkkasa xnumx 12 December 2015 08: 07 New
      +8
      In general, yes, if the author wanted to tell how badly the situation is with the production of ammunition, then it was desirable to show this in numbers.
      And he limited himself to the phrase - “Today, the situation with shell production is much worse: then it was on the rise, today it is in a deep crisis”. (WITH)
      1. lukewarm
        lukewarm 15 December 2015 14: 46 New
        0
        The numbers are secret IMHO and no one will bring them here, even if they know. Therefore, the statements of both the author and the reverse are unfounded. Judging by the collapse of the system, the author seems close to the truth to me. All collapsed and dragged into the war.
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 12 December 2015 10: 24 New
      0
      Yes, now shells, shells, it is possible to make 100 pieces per day at CNC machining centers - depending on the gauge.
      1. x587x
        x587x 12 December 2015 11: 16 New
        +8
        It is possible if you restore the system and determine which enterprises will be, what will be released in case of special conditions, and no one canceled the technology (accessories, tools, programs, etc.) even for the CNC. So, with a big schukher, all the country's defense enterprises known to "friends" will be primarily disabled, and civilians will be run around with big eyes and shout, we have a CNC, we need to release something ...
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 12 December 2015 19: 12 New
          +2
          There are all the necessary tools in the processing centers, all the more so now you can write one processing program and transfer it to all the machines of the same manufacturer, and the more famous friends will disable the plants - not nuclear weapons, this will be a mutual strike, and after that and no ammunition needed the war will end.
          1. 97110
            97110 12 December 2015 20: 34 New
            +4
            Quote: Vadim237
            after no more ammunition is needed the war will end.

            Unfortunately, not everyone will be able to get out. Will have to and after a mutual blow who were unlucky to fight. The hotheads of the war have already been canceled on the occasion of the invention of dynamite. 70 years there is a nuclear weapon. Of these 70, how many years were 6-inch shells not in demand? The issue is not only the presence or absence of the necessary metal-cutting capacities. Slice your CNC enclosures, if any. What's next? Do you think that Ukrainian suppliers-customers have reduced to 0 special departments? Are businesses left? In my opinion, the article raised another question ... And the incompleteness of the article is most likely from the horror that the author had incurred on the edge of the pit, in which there should be production of shells.
          2. Alf
            Alf 12 December 2015 23: 09 New
            +4
            Quote: Vadim237
            There are all the necessary tools in the processing centers, all the more so now you can write one processing program and transfer it to all the machines of the same manufacturer,

            Did you work at the factory? It’s not enough to write a program, it needs to be loaded into the machine, debugged, delivered (and first done) workpieces, prepared with a cutting tool, a measuring tool, and obtained technological maps. And this is just what is in sight.
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 13 December 2015 00: 17 New
              +5
              I have 18 machines myself, 10 of them have DMG machining centers in a cassette, each with 200 tools at the ready - with writing programs, measuring tools, coolants, checking tools and machines - the workers do not experience problems. And if necessary, my production will be included in the manufacture of parts, shell shells and everything else, if they provide drawings and blanks of the required size.
              1. Alf
                Alf 13 December 2015 15: 21 New
                +2
                Quote: Vadim237
                I have 18 machines myself, 10 of them have DMG machining centers in a cassette, each with 200 tools at the ready - with writing programs, measuring tools, coolants, checking tools and machines - the workers do not experience problems. And if necessary, my production will be included in the manufacture of parts, shell shells and everything else, if they provide drawings and blanks of the required size.

                I am very happy for your factory.
                BUT. Do you have a reservation?
                Quote: Vadim237
                if they provide blanks of the required size.
                And who will do these preparations? And who and how soon will they be brought to you? But is the situation as joyful at other plants? Or do you think that with your 10 centers you will provide explosive growth in production after the announcement of the hour "H"? And how soon will your plant be able to saturate the market?
                1. Vadim237
                  Vadim237 13 December 2015 23: 48 New
                  0
                  In our country, all the necessary machine tools, blanks, cars, and even bridges across the rivers are in the Rosrezerv, so I won’t worry about that.
                2. Vadim237
                  Vadim237 13 December 2015 23: 56 New
                  0
                  Why ten machines - I'm not the only one in the country.
              2. Fedor and Co.
                Fedor and Co. 23 December 2015 18: 01 New
                0
                At least one person answered in a businesslike way! I respect
      2. moskowit
        moskowit 12 December 2015 13: 38 New
        15
        Someone should service CNC machines, and initially to study. And most potential workers go to those areas of work where the title of worker is ostracized.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 12 December 2015 19: 15 New
          +2
          In our country, there is someone to work for and serve them, these guys will not leave for other areas of work, the work is painfully good and they pay decently.
    4. Sirocco
      Sirocco 12 December 2015 13: 22 New
      -14
      Quote: Corporal
      What did the author want to say?

      The author of the series is lost.
      Where does the authors of today's articles come from? No leak from the General Staff?
      In fact, this information relates to state secrets, and the army reform did not begin yesterday, and not stupid people.
      Putin and Shoigu aren't stupid people, are they?
      Everything else is like in the movie.
    5. moskowit
      moskowit 12 December 2015 13: 29 New
      +5
      We have enough machines. We do not have enough who will make shells on the machines ...
    6. Severok
      Severok 12 December 2015 13: 51 New
      17
      All that is missing is the real masters in the government; metallurgical facilities; metalworking machines and mills; metalworking workers; factories for the production of explosives, both propellant and brisant; engineering staff; bullets in the heads of saboteurs from the government (Gref, Kudrin, etc.)

      And the author wanted to say that in the face of a big mess with the use of non-nuclear weapons, we will fight with sticks and shovels.
      1. gas113
        gas113 12 December 2015 18: 30 New
        +1
        With bullets in the minds of saboteurs and it is necessary to start then the rest will appear and machines and personnel and equipment. Why only the government does not understand this
        1. Alf
          Alf 12 December 2015 23: 11 New
          +2
          Quote: gas113
          Why only the government does not understand this

          And it consists of them.
    7. Rus2012
      Rus2012 12 December 2015 14: 15 New
      +6
      Quote: Corporal
      What did the author want to say?

      Quote: Onotolle
      At least offers to think.

      Quote: rkkasa 81
      In general, yes, if the author wanted to tell how badly the situation is with the production of ammunition, then it was desirable to show this in numbers.

      ... last wish closed topic negative
      About how much was lost, there was -
      Prospects for the development of the cartridge industry
      http://topwar.ru/21258-perspektivy-razvitiya-patronnoy-otrasli.html#

      As for the loss of production of a wide range of ammunition, there is no need to go far ...
      Somewhere already wrote about it.
      We have here a well-known agricultural machinery factory nearby. Them. Ukhtomsky was called. More precisely, it was ...

      In the period after the collapse, it sank, or rather, repeatedly passed the execution of the unforgettable redhead, which, as you know, is to blame for everything ...
      So, the first Chechen war began, then the second ...
      Ammunition tends to be spent in a war, even if you do not call it war or limited CTO ...
      The quartermasters notice that some of the most common and no-brainer mines are ending. Relations are written, but - how the quantity decreased, it does not resume. Having rummaged in old, still Soviet mobplanes, they sent an authorized person for a special period to the place of production. That picture appeared in full glory: the shops are empty, in the corner some kind of natural coffins are stacked, on the line are still - at different degrees of readiness ... In short - the end!
      It turned out - once again the factory was bought by some Georgian businessman. And since there was a serious shooting of noble personalities in the vastness of the country, - I decided to produce for them elite coffins of Italian cut and on imported equipment. I threw out the old equipment, wrote out the new one, and set it. But, on his grief, the people actually regained his sight and especially stopped shooting, which means overproduction ... The well-known coffin-builder-banker also burnt out on the same ...

      But the story does not end there ...
      I read a few years ago - the plant for the production of mowers and conditioners both worked and works. There is a need. And he is headed by the same simple Russian woman, unforgettable Vera ... True, in another place. She kept the documentation and the staff of the old school, picked up the equipment thrown away by the Georgian. Found a place and resumed production. Honor and praise to her for this and bow to the waist!
      Only now she no longer makes shells - private enterprise, however ...

      And further...
      About the Chinese brothers.

      Our military still found a way out ... We now purchase part of the range of uncomplicated ammunition in China ...
      1. Alf
        Alf 12 December 2015 23: 13 New
        +4
        Quote: Rus2012
        .A part of the range of uncomplicated ammunition we are now purchasing in China ...

        Great idea! And if (or rather, when) you have to fight with China?
      2. Lieutenant colonel
        Lieutenant colonel 13 December 2015 05: 17 New
        0
        Share - what exactly from b / p we buy in China? At least call calibers. And then so - OBS turns out.
    8. g1v2
      g1v2 12 December 2015 19: 14 New
      +1
      The author just wanted to stand up for his institute TNITI. And so he paints a picture of how bad everything is and only TNITI does not allow everything to collapse. Apparently, this institute was overboard and orders go past it. So he draws horrors. wink In principle, this is a good thing, advertising a native institute in the media is a good thing from a marketing point of view. But there is one thing. It is necessary to convince not the average man, but the Moscow Region. And to convince, not by drawing scary pictures, but with the numbers in the stockpiles of ammunition, their spending on exercises and databases, their possible future consumption and the necessary strategic reserve. WHAT A NEW INSTITUTE CAN OFFER TO THE ARMY, WHO AND WHICH SHOULD BE ABROAD ABOUT THE INTERESTS OF MO AND TD. And justify why TNITI is necessary, and not the fifth wheel in the cart. Not to the press, but to the MO, the author needs to contact. hi
    9. Alekseev
      Alekseev 12 December 2015 20: 17 New
      +2
      Quote: Corporal
      don't we have enough machines? Or special departments at each production? Or stocks of shells in warehouses? Or all together?
      What did the author want to say?

      The author, in all likelihood, wanted to say about the need to accumulate mob. stocks, in particular, artillery shells, and training mob. industry capacities.
      And rightly so.
      But ... In view of the fact that our economy is at all 20, and not 30, and not even 5% of the world, we, with all our desire, will not be able to compete with NATO led by the United States or even the PRC in terms of the number of troops and conventional weapons.
      They must be in a reasonably sufficient amount.
      And our salvation in the development of the Strategic Missile Forces and in general the strategic nuclear forces, as well as high-precision means of delivery of tactical nuclear weapons.
      For example, the use of several dozen special ammunition with a capacity of 0,05-0,1 kilotons makes no NATO attack possible, and at the same time, the world still has a chance to survive.
      Of course, this is a very extreme case, God forbid, that this never happened.
      BUT ... Here Erdogan's tower was demolished and he launched a massive attack in Latakia on Assad's Syrian army and our contingent.
      Enough "one pill" in the form of a warhead with tactical special ammunition, so that he does not have such bad thoughts. And the USA and NATO have their own shirt closer to the body, Berlin and London are more expensive than the bad Ankara.
      If this were not so, then we would already have experienced the Hiroshima of Russia.
      1. Alf
        Alf 12 December 2015 23: 19 New
        +1
        Quote: Alekseev
        Enough "one pill" in the form of a warhead with tactical special ammunition, so that he does not have such bad thoughts.

        It’s good that you don’t have access to the black suitcase. We probably would have painted everything around in soft blue tones, and we ourselves would have shone.
        Quote: Alekseev
        And the USA and NATO have their own shirt closer to the body, Berlin and London are more expensive than the bad Ankara.
        If this were not so, then we would already have experienced the Hiroshima of Russia.

        There is such a definition — Politicians want or don’t want, but the guns start firing on their own for purely military reasons.
        1. Alekseev
          Alekseev 13 December 2015 10: 56 New
          +1
          Quote: Alf
          the guns start firing on their own

          That is unlikely.
          By itself, a pimple will not jump. wink
          There is such a definition.
          So without permission, the guns do not shoot, for the gunners are afraid of the consequences ...
          I am sure that when the Turk arrived in NATO to ask for support for a downed plane, then everything about him was unacceptable to risks for “Berlin and London” clearly understood.
  2. Hitrovan07
    Hitrovan07 12 December 2015 07: 27 New
    10
    That’s an occasion to ponder over who runs Russia - on the bright example of German Gref (we modestly keep silent about the others)!
  3. aszzz888
    aszzz888 12 December 2015 07: 27 New
    -24
    The only aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov hurries, periodically firing Caliber delivered to positions almost directly from the factory shops, Tu-160, of which there are only a dozen and a half, fly in from the Volga.


    It’s a very pessimistic little article, I won’t call this material otherwise. So I want to ask the “achtor”, is it not written on the same floor as “Echo” or “Rain”?
    1. almost demobil
      almost demobil 12 December 2015 09: 05 New
      20
      Quote: aszzz888
      It’s a very pessimistic little article, I won’t call this material otherwise. So I want to ask the “achtor”, is it not written on the same floor as “Echo” or “Rain”?

      Exactly, it was necessary to write that we have everything, a canned shell shop was hidden at each plant. And at the end three times WRITTEN fellow !!! You would like that.
      1. aszzz888
        aszzz888 12 December 2015 10: 26 New
        -5
        Exactly, it was necessary to write that we have everything, a canned shell shop was hidden at each plant. And at the end three times LATERAL fellow !!! You would like that.


        For special patriots: At the extreme report of the Minister of Defense 11.12.15, the situation with shells, missiles and even new plastic packaging for shells was announced. It would be better to have looked through this report than to believe the liberal-muddy article!
        And about URAYAYA. A child will come from the kindergarten and URAYAYakayak with him! You can even five times! fellow
      2. Alf
        Alf 12 December 2015 23: 20 New
        0
        Quote: almost demob
        Exactly, it was necessary to write that we have everything, a canned shell shop was hidden at each plant.

        And every evening the military transported a train of shells from it.
        1. Ykrofashist
          Ykrofashist 13 December 2015 02: 27 New
          0
          Forgot fellow fellow fellow . But do not be afraid. The main thing is to plant larger peas - 203mm will not be needed laughing laughing laughing
  4. turcom
    turcom 12 December 2015 07: 33 New
    +2
    neither add nor diminish.
    1. alicante11
      alicante11 12 December 2015 09: 21 New
      10
      Well Duc, maybe then just put an article on the plus sign and shut up?
      The article raises a very serious problem, but no evidence has been given of its existence. How many shells, what capacities for their production are available? What is their estimated consumption? I doubt that these data are not in the General Staff. Another thing, will the General Staff agree to talk about this? But if there is no data, it is better to remain silent, or at least raise the problem as a question, not a statement, about the "last mango".
      Incidentally, experience suggests that dill in Soviet stocks has been fighting for the past year and a half.
      1. Reducer
        Reducer 12 December 2015 09: 54 New
        +5
        This is not a war, but a war crime. It’s not necessary to shoot a lot of city blocks, they’re superfluous there.
        1. alicante11
          alicante11 12 December 2015 13: 30 New
          +3
          This is not a war, but a war crime. It’s not necessary to shoot a lot of city blocks, they’re superfluous there.


          Well, last summer, there was quite a war. However, not the point. For shells, it’s absolutely the same, they "bullet" them in the troops, or in city blocks. They are consumed equally.
          1. Reducer
            Reducer 12 December 2015 16: 12 New
            +3
            And to whom did Ukraine declare war?
            In a full-fledged war, there is clear planning: information about the enemy - statement of the problem - concentration of the necessary forces and means for its implementation.
            What the hell stock of weapons and ammunition, if the whole world is our brothers, and the president is ready to drink to the loss of a pulse wherever it lands?
            Yuri Shabalin is not talking about the number of shells in the arsenal at the moment, but about the problem of the lack of production capacity for their production. Well, here, too, is not the collegium of the military-industrial complex, if any numbers are sounded, then only from open sources.
            1. alicante11
              alicante11 13 December 2015 03: 48 New
              0
              And to whom did Ukraine declare war?


              Oh, God ... What difference does it make to anyone who has declared war or has not declared. If the guns are scorching at all? What, they destroy Donetsk and Gorlovka and DAP with New Year’s gifts?

              In a full-fledged war, there is clear planning: information about the enemy - statement of the problem - concentration of the necessary forces and means for its implementation.


              You will be surprised, but it was all. I understand that in your understanding, dill is not an army, but the Americans behind them have quite an army and their planning is at a high level. And if ours beat them in the summer and autumn of 2014, then this does not mean that the planning was not there or that it was stupid.

              What the hell stock of weapons and ammunition, if the whole world is our brothers, and the president is ready to drink to the loss of a pulse wherever it lands?


              So what? How does this relate to shells? They help what remains, but, IMHO, in the VD there is no sense in such stockpiles of shells, which was in the Union corny.

              Yuri Shabalin is not talking about the number of shells in the arsenal at the moment, but about the problem of the lack of production capacity for their production.


              What does not lead to any figures ... I only with both hands FOR an increase in the production of shells. But if you undertook to write an article, then at least bring the numbers.
      2. Sirocco
        Sirocco 12 December 2015 13: 27 New
        +1
        Quote: alicante11
        Incidentally, experience suggests that dill in Soviet stocks has been fighting for the past year and a half.

        Given the fact that the last 25 years they have been selling left and right.
        All the rest, A military secret.
      3. 97110
        97110 12 December 2015 20: 43 New
        +1
        Quote: alicante11
        already a year and a half as they fight in all.

        In all - is it an expense like 22.06.1941? Or what are we comparing with?
        1. alicante11
          alicante11 13 December 2015 03: 50 New
          0
          In all - is it an expense like 22.06.1941? Or what are we comparing with?


          In the summer and autumn of the 2014 year, high-intensity fighting took place. In winter 2015, too, constant shelling, albeit of lesser intensity, still require a large number of b / p. And this is provided that the production of dill is practically eliminated.
      4. Alf
        Alf 12 December 2015 23: 22 New
        +1
        Quote: alicante11
        Incidentally, experience suggests that dill in Soviet stocks has been fighting for the past year and a half.

        Watching how they fight. If you fight with the same Turkey, then the intensity of hostilities and the consumption of shells will be "slightly" higher.
        1. alicante11
          alicante11 13 December 2015 03: 53 New
          0
          Watching how they fight. If you fight with the same Turkey, then the intensity of hostilities and the consumption of shells will be "slightly" higher.


          I do not know. This is a fortune telling on coffee grounds. All the armed forces will not engage against Turkey in any case, and in the Donbass, apparently, there are groups of about tens of thousands of people in the first line. So b / d are comparable. The difference is in the air component and high-precision b / p, but the article is not about missiles or bombs, but about shells.
          1. Alf
            Alf 13 December 2015 15: 15 New
            0
            Quote: alicante11
            tens of thousands of people in the first line.
            ??
            All military operations in the Donbass, with a few exceptions, are the actions of light infantry, supported by a small amount of artillery. Where are the breakthroughs of the enemy’s defensive line, where are the blows to the entire depth? This is where the consumption of shells and missiles will be not just big, but enormous. If it comes to open databases with Turkey, then all this will seem.
  5. sergant89
    sergant89 12 December 2015 07: 43 New
    20
    We lack the first, second, and third, and most importantly, the government did not want to do anything in the "well-fed years", and now there is no money for that. Constantly harassing the Soviet era, the current liberals, even in this matter, turned out to be not just not far-sighted "experts", but simply traitors and enemies of the people. Studying the history of the USSR, and constantly encountering examples in various industries for which there were funds that seemed to be unnecessary , but they played a huge role, building a single whole brick by brick (this is cleaning the riverbed, planting forests, etc., etc.), here is another example from a huge number of things that we thought about then.
    1. rkkasa xnumx
      rkkasa xnumx 12 December 2015 09: 02 New
      14
      Quote: sergant89
      Studying the history of the USSR, and constantly encountering examples in various industries for which there were funds that seemed to be unnecessary, but played a huge role, building a single unit in brick

      Quote: sergant89
      current liberals, even in this matter, turned out to be not just not far-sighted "specialists", but simply traitors and enemies of the people

      A peasant from Donbass alone said:
      In the 90s, at the mine, during the mining of the mine surveyor, they set the wrong direction and as a result got lost on old mine workings, about which no one knew (or was there documentation, did the management know - and it wasn’t accidental?).

      It was a wing almost ready for zinc mining - cable, substation, electric locomotives, trolleys, fans, etc. Judging by the equipment, it was prepared and mothballed in the 50s.
      In general, the equipment was issued - something for scrap, something for color, something for other mine mines sold. And this mine soon closed.

      I’m what it is for - in the USSR, for different situations, they prepared not only ammunition, but also much more. For example, they prepared some kind of deposit, and canned it, so that in case of what it would be possible to quickly begin production.
      Or the same locomotives for conservation. Yes, a lot of things were prepared.
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 12 December 2015 10: 05 New
        +5
        Quote: rkkasa 81
        Or the same locomotives for conservation.

        In China, almost everything was sold for scrap. And already in the 2000s.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 12 December 2015 10: 29 New
      +1
      If necessary, you can set up all CNC machines for the production of shells - the main thing is that there would be raw materials for production.
  6. Anatole Klim
    Anatole Klim 12 December 2015 08: 13 New
    14
    The article is correct, do not repeat the mistakes of the past, let's recall the "shell hunger of the First World War."
    General Anton Denikin recalled: “The great tragedy of the Russian army is the retreat from Galicia. No bullets, no shells ... Eleven days of the terrible hum of the German heavy artillery, literally tearing down whole rows of trenches along with their defenders. We almost did not answer - there is nothing. " Another general, Nikolai Golovin, added: “What the Russian army survived in the summer months of 1915 is beyond description. She could respond to massive, "drum" fire of powerful enemy artillery with only rare shots ... There were periods in which it was allowed to fire no more than a dozen shells per gun per day. "
    On August 1, 1914, the Russian army had a stock of 7 million shells with real demand, soon calculated at the rate based on combat experience of 1,5 million per month! And for the whole of 1914, the country's factories gave only 650 shells ...
  7. Alex 74
    Alex 74 12 December 2015 08: 18 New
    +9
    Actual article! They burned and drank the old, but there is nothing to do on the new.
  8. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b 12 December 2015 08: 32 New
    +9
    The article is very relevant because it reflects the real situation. The oil "freebie" for today has failed, once again recalling that we must not cherish our industry, but in every way we can stimulate and develop it. And if you touch on her topic of mobilization resources, then her situation is sadder. All-embracing thirst for profit thoroughly struck our entire society, eclipsing the mind. But this does not apply to the article, although everything is the same. In addition to investments in the development of production, a reasonable personnel policy is needed. Now in factories of the military-industrial complex mainly people over 40 work, receiving not very large salaries, which make it possible to reduce horses with horses. If, as proponents of arms exports say, finance came to pay, human resources departments would introduce competitive selection among young people. And the equipment would be updated. And where is all this ??? Figs with butter. Export money is easier to cut and appropriate, but for Russia and its armed forces this does not give anything, only to the benefit of our sworn "partners." Therefore, once again I emphasize that arms sales Yes THE CRIME!!!. As for the ammunition, we must use every opportunity to replenish it. Revive the machine tool industry, finally.
  9. sergant89
    sergant89 12 December 2015 08: 50 New
    +9
    Quote: sanya.vorodis
    I recommend reading the source and comments on it ...

    The author did not try to appeal to the Government, to the President? Now we will raise the dregs from the bottom, we will be pleased and ... quiet down ... And everything will remain "in its own right ..."

    Yes, even if they don’t want to listen to facts and arguments, what kind of “voice of the people” are you talking about.
    PS look not regret it.
  10. oxotnuk86
    oxotnuk86 12 December 2015 09: 17 New
    18
    The article is correct. No one says that we need to start production right now. Let me give you an example of a 70-year test of manufacturing a “product 200”. To cast a cast-iron body of a mortar mine. In view of improper storage, the equipment had to be re-made. They did it, they cast it, they didn’t meet the time limit. They brought it, the military representative accepted it and carefully removed it to the warehouse. A plant producing a citizen without any special costs goes to the military commissariat at the right time. But where are the factories themselves, factories, not to mention machine tools. They sawed it under the strict guidance of the perestroika, the democrat and now we are sitting in deep ... and there is no way out without a feat.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 12 December 2015 10: 33 New
      -9
      And there are factories and factories, and machine tool industry also crawls out of the crisis - you can not worry.
      1. x587x
        x587x 12 December 2015 11: 43 New
        +9
        What is the machine tool factory that gets out of the crisis?
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 12 December 2015 19: 31 New
          +2
          PKF Stankoservice LLC, KB STANEKOSIM, Perm Plant of Metalworking Centers, new DMG Plant - joint production of machining centers in Ulyanovsk.
          1. x587x
            x587x 13 December 2015 18: 16 New
            +2
            PKF Stankoservice LLC is a good office, they are trying to do something, but in the country it’s a garage cooperative. Ulyanovsk assembly of foreign components.
            I don’t know about Stankoeksim.
            1. Vadim237
              Vadim237 13 December 2015 23: 58 New
              +1
              In Ulyanovsk, the localization is 50% - so this is already half of ours, and by 2020 it will reach 90%.
  11. Sasha75
    Sasha75 12 December 2015 10: 48 New
    +3
    Well, first of all, we had a lot of shells in 1941, but they loved the half of the warehouses without even destroying them and gave them to the Germans, so they sold them or you thought they gave them to the Finns and Romanians, no, they sold them, and shells 76mm release 1939 in the 80s still shot at the ranges. And an important question, but if not so much of our ammunition had been captured as the war would have ended before the Germans, the Finns of the Romanians fought with our guns and our shells. But on the merits of the matter, the main problem was the delivery of shells to the front from the warehouses, and in this we lost equipment, we grabbed the main issue of shells in 1944, and some of the larger calibers stopped production, because by all accounts several years of the war had already been released and with all the calculations was enough. Regarding modern production, I agree that the factories were cut into scrap metal, but the same thing happened in the West as well, and even more Americans did not have any reserves. Europeans in ammunition and small arms are in short supply; they have no mobilization reserve about planes; Germans who are not flying have all laughed at it, but this is only part of their problems; everyone looks at the Americans; they will save themselves; few count on their neighbor; I don’t think that everyone in a single impulse to war is more likely, on the contrary, they will rush home in a single impulse. We have enterprises that make the main ammunition, and they work and produce products and the level of productivity inherent in them. But what is really critical here is the production of gunpowder. Cotton is bought up all by the Americans. We get crumbs and not the best quality. Developments are being made to make gunpowder from flax and hemp))) and quite successful.
  12. runway
    runway 12 December 2015 11: 04 New
    +3
    The fact that the author is very worried that our gunners had something to defeat the aggressor in case of need is certainly pleasing. But HOW he does this is not only distressing, but also alarming.
    It seems that the author deliberately throws in a "closed" topic, in the hope that someone will talk too much, and someone will advance on this and earn.
    Everyone knows (and our partners too) about the norms for the separation of ammunition. These norms have not changed for decades and were designed to ensure that our industry during the period of spending these stocks will arrange in the required quantity the production and delivery of the required ammunition. But this is a closed topic and discuss it - pouring water into the mill to our "partners".
    1. AUL
      AUL 12 December 2015 14: 39 New
      +5
      The fact is that our industry is now completely different from the one at the time when these norms were adopted. And in terms of capacity and organization. At work, he often visited munition factories in Siberia, the Urals, Saratov, Vladimir, and many more. Many factories still worked on special equipment from Index, exported from Germany in the 40s. Already in the 90s you go into the workshop - the machines are under the canned film. He arrived a couple of years later - the workshop was empty. Where are the machines? - Yes, they turned it into scrap metal ... And a powerful defense plant produces furniture fittings from silumin ...
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 12 December 2015 19: 53 New
        +1
        And how do you propose that factories survive if there are no orders - just switching to a house and renting premises, now one modern machine replaces dozens of old ones, and therefore huge plants are not needed - the "efficiency" of production is increasing, and the area is decreasing.
  13. Leader
    Leader 12 December 2015 12: 55 New
    14
    Quote: piston
    were calculated on the fact that our industry during the period of expenditure of these stocks will establish in the required quantity the production and delivery of the required ammunition.

    Who will establish? - our homegrown capitalists?
    You, piston, are lost in time. It will be, as in the First World War - only worse, with a more deplorable result!
    Almost all significant enterprises are under the foreign control of our potential enemies!
    Not only will they not “lift a finger”, they will directly sabotage all attempts to help the army. There will be no fulfillment of any mobilization plans!
    And who will stand up to the machines? 80 year olds? Or youth - all as one menager, lawyers, financiers?
    Who in the modern world, corrupted by shitty democratic values, will endure incredible hardships and hardships?
    And at the front - who will fight to death? The vast majority of Russians “saw in the grave” the problems of the current Russian oligarchy!
    Under what slogans do people inspire?
    For the Orthodox faith? - it's not gonna go!
    For the king-father and his loyal boyars from the lake cooperative? - haha!
    For eatable and indivisible? - after the collapse of the USSR?
    You can continue to puff out your cheeks and promise to tear everyone ... I, having looked at the young military personnel of all categories, became an absolute realist - we fucked ... uh!
    1. Antropos
      Antropos 12 December 2015 15: 25 New
      +5
      I am afraid of a little different. Could we repeat the fate of France in the early to mid-20 century. Having defeated the French in WWI, it was likely, like us, arguing that if a nemchura pokes his head, we’ll stick it in again! And the army was large and industry was more German. And surrendered in a month.
      Here the problem is in the psychological state of the shirnarmass at the moment. You can frighten enemies as much as you like with the exploits of fathers and grandfathers. But now they will personally attack you. And the feat will have to be revealed - YOU personally! The French were not ready for this. The exploitation of historical memory is good in literature. You can earn on it. But, as soon as you find yourself at the front and all the enemies shoot at you, the whole story is hidden behind one fat question: are you ready to die right now? And spinning somewhere nearby: for what? Option - as it should, rolls if you need 18-25. Seniors need motivation. In the event of a war with the igil, everything will be simple. It will be a war of annihilation. I look forward to the speedy igilization of Turkey, the Caucasus and Wed Asia. War there is already inevitable. There will be a long bloody war that will finally overthrow our economy and the Pepsi generation will howl: come and go, bring us freedom. There 500 million Europeans live like that - and nothing. Then there will be a drang nah osten. the igil will become a respectable scarecrow for the Russian world, squeezed to the size of Russia since the times of Ivan 3.
      Gloomy scenario. If we don’t slap the igil right now. So far, he has not climbed into Turkey.
      1. NordUral
        NordUral 12 December 2015 15: 48 New
        +2
        Exactly! Unfortunately.
  14. Severok
    Severok 12 December 2015 14: 02 New
    10
    There was a wonderful plant in Murmansk, called the Murmansk Shipyard ...
    There was a termichka, a forge, a cabinet workshop, electronic equipment, fuel equipment .... There was equipment - for all occasions! Specialists were - to shoe a flea, to create a precision pair from scratch, but easily! Now there are heaps of grindophile organizations that exist to satisfy the thirst for profit of the owners of Gazprom and the like. Specialists who died, who retired, who changed jobs ...

    Now, ship repair is carried out anywhere, except on the legendary one that produced mines, mortars, mortars, repairs of ships of the Northern Fleet during the Second World War, and an enterprise sold for short-term profit of its soldiers in ties.
  15. Alex1977RUS
    Alex1977RUS 12 December 2015 14: 50 New
    +4
    Quote: moskowit
    We have enough machines. We do not have enough who will make shells on the machines ...

    That alarmists then divorced. I am a professional installer of these very CNC machines.
    And yet, yes, an ordinary turner can grind the case, on an ordinary lathe.
    And one modern CNC machine replaces the old workshop, with all the currents, with proper production planning.
    For a CNC machine, you do not need to have seven spans in your forehead, even office plankton can handle it.
    We need one installer for the workshop, and a dozen or two, depending on the volume of production of "effective managers" and other "menchandisers" with "creative directors" who will clamp the blanks and put the finished cases on the cart. You can even teach this to the “manager’s office” from an advertising agency.
    More complicated of course than a chimpanzee, or an orangutan there, but you can ...
    The question is that we still need explosives, we need equipment to fill these shells, and this is actually a complicated matter, home-grown sofa experts, for example, do not even suspect that the fused toll is from KD No. 8, which is in all fuses, from shell to conventional F -1 do not start, there are nuances ... And the fuses themselves are a much more complicated thing than shell blanks ... But this is another question, beyond the scope of this article.
    1. NordUral
      NordUral 12 December 2015 15: 46 New
      +4
      And one modern CNC machine replaces the old workshop, with all the currents, with proper production planning.
      My friend, you know that this is not entirely true, why lie?
    2. Alf
      Alf 12 December 2015 23: 31 New
      +1
      Quote: Alex1977RUS
      depending on the volume of production of "effective managers" and other "menchandisers" with "creative directors" who will clamp the blanks and put the finished cases onto the cart.

      These "effective managers" of the workpiece will be inserted by the other side. And when you swear about it, they will remind you of freedom and democracy and explain where they saw this production.
  16. NordUral
    NordUral 12 December 2015 15: 43 New
    +4
    At the same time, in the 2006 year, the German Gref's office intended to sell the state-owned TNITI stake, which owns all the ammunition technology, under auction.
    For this alone (and far from one) it is necessary to put it on the wall. All would thieves-liberals again seize and leave the country without the military-industrial complex at all.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 12 December 2015 19: 45 New
      -6
      All these ammunition are already obsolete both physically and mentally - now in the first place are high-precision shells and missiles.
      1. Alf
        Alf 12 December 2015 23: 33 New
        0
        Quote: Vadim237
        All these ammunition are already obsolete both physically and mentally - now in the first place are high-precision shells and missiles.

        Are you considering the difference in price? What's easier and faster is to make a guided missile or missile defense projectile?
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 13 December 2015 00: 40 New
          0
          To hit a single target requires 150 rounds and a considerable amount of time, and a high-precision shell can hit a target from the first shot, which at a cost would be cheaper than hundreds of ammunition fired by, and at a price an anti-tank missile would cost about 600000 rubles, and an OBPS for a tank of about 200 thousand - 300 in view of the complexity and accuracy of manufacture, but not the fact that this shell will fall from the first shot - with mass production, the production speed of these different ammunition will be equivalent.
  17. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 12 December 2015 15: 58 New
    -2
    Dear author, are you tired of it ??? Well, I certainly understand that it’s a shame to lose the tender for the supply of shells. It’s painful for me to sit for so many years sitting in the back seat straight and delivering to the troops, let’s say outdated ammunition, to suddenly lose the order ensuring the comfortable existence of your native enterprise .All of your articles are saturated with insult to the customer, who after many years, did not choose you. But alas, the times are changing, but you just do not have time ...
  18. Alex1977RUS
    Alex1977RUS 12 December 2015 16: 05 New
    +5
    Quote: NordUral
    And one modern CNC machine replaces the old workshop, with all the tokors, with proper production planning.
    My friend, you know that this is not entirely true, why lie?

    What kind of workshop are we specifically talking about?
    The number of conventional machines, type, qualifications of machine tool workers?
    What brand of CNC machine?
    And at the same time, maybe you have a technical process accidentally lying around, on the same 152 mm OFS ...
    The total number of operations?
    The number of passes there, with what accuracy class?
    What is the time for operation? Well, for the sake of order ...
    The average revolving station wagon operates in three shifts, seven days a week, with a negligible percentage of rejects, compared to manual processing, without requiring dragging the blanks around the workshop, from machine to machine, changing cutters and other additional operations ...
    Together, when I repeat the normally organized production, yes, somehow.
    PS Naturally, a workshop with a hundred posts will not replace one machine.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 12 December 2015 19: 42 New
      0
      Still how to replace it - if it is a CNC processing center - for example, like these http://ru.dmgmori.com/
  19. partizan86
    partizan86 12 December 2015 17: 27 New
    +7
    We have everything except competent management in all areas. So there are not enough shells.
  20. DHA
    DHA 12 December 2015 19: 29 New
    +1
    According to Mendeleev, Russians should already have become 500. But the vultures of the West for several centuries have been playing a game to destroy the Russian people. And you must admit that all these wars and conflicts are tied to us, they get something.
    1. Sergej1972
      Sergej1972 12 December 2015 23: 23 New
      0
      Mendeleev had in mind the population of the Russian Empire of all nationalities within the borders of the beginning of the 20th century. Demographers, by the way, with all due respect to Mendeleev, argue that he did not take into account a number of factors.
  21. Vadim237
    Vadim237 12 December 2015 20: 23 New
    +1
    For tank guns, we began to produce new shells OBPS 3BM59 ZBM60, a cumulative ZBK31 with an armor penetration of 800 millimeters for double dynamic protection -
  22. Tester
    Tester 12 December 2015 22: 30 New
    0
    Sorry Yuri, but with the calibers you piled. Vant, however, has 125, and there is nothing to say about 152 for tank weapons
    1. Ykrofashist
      Ykrofashist 13 December 2015 02: 52 New
      0
      Dear, but the person in the future thinks (or in the next conflict 76mm shells will be used on tanks. Sorry, I didn’t know, this will not happen again)
    2. Ykrofashist
      Ykrofashist 13 December 2015 14: 23 New
      0
      Dear, but the person in the future thinks (or in the next conflict 76mm shells will be used on tanks. Sorry, I didn’t know, this will not happen again)
    3. Ykrofashist
      Ykrofashist 13 December 2015 18: 26 New
      -1
      For understanding, object 292, 195, 640 existed. There was no enemy beneath them, and there are no serial 152-ek but they will be needed - stamped.
  23. Former battalion commander
    Former battalion commander 13 December 2015 19: 32 New
    +1
    Obviously, the country is not ready for either a small or even a larger war ... The thieves ’elite" doesn’t plan to fight - as soon as the fried smell goes, they’ll flow away right away, and the fate of "this country" no longer interests anyone ... Elite - because they are not going to live here, the middle class - because he dreams of "dumping to the west", ordinary people - because why should he defend VORIER!
  24. looker-on
    looker-on 15 December 2015 20: 17 New
    0
    No one is embarrassed by the fact that in the arsenal of Russia the tanks are equipped with a 125 mm caliber without exception?
  25. ALEx NIXon
    ALEx NIXon 5 January 2016 11: 36 New
    -1
    Something is not clear from where such data is.