Military Review

New information about the heroism of the heroes Panfilov found in the archives

59
New information about the heroism of the heroes Panfilov found in the archives



The next anniversary of the Red Army counterattack near Moscow, which began on December 5, 1941, is a good reason to look objectively at the true scale of the feat of the fighters and commanders of the Panfilov division.

The efforts of the “mytho-warriors” have led to the fact that the creation of their “anti-legend” has obscured the real space in the perception of many of our fellow citizens. stories. Recently, much has been written about the battles of November 16-17, 1941 in the region of Dubosekovo-Shiryaevo-Nelidovo, when during the German attack on Moscow several thousand Panfilovites showed truly massive heroism, stubbornly fighting the Nazi tanks. But do not forget that the Panfilov division defended the capital for about two months, starting from the October battles near Volokolamsk and until the beginning of December, when it held a dramatic defense near Kryukovo. That’s exactly what Muscovites of Panfilov’s perceived at that time: as those heroes who, in mortal combat, stopped the invaders at the last defensive line and defended Moscow. Important details about these events were found in the archival funds of the Commission on the History of the Great Patriotic War of the USSR Academy of Sciences.

By the beginning of the battles for Kryukovo, the Panfilov members were already called so officially. November 18 1941, the day of the death of Major General Ivan Vasilyevich Panfilov, the 316 Infantry Division, which he commanded, was transformed into the 8 Guards Infantry Division; 23 November division received the honorary title "Panfilov". And then Kryukovo, the village and the station - for a long time, since 1970, is located within the precincts of Moscow, in Zelenograd. In 1941, it was thought that the area was located in 22 kilometers north-west of the capital. And yet the very disturbing circumstances of the place ...

On November 30, after several days of bloody defense in the village of Sokolovo, the remnants of the Panfilov division were relegated to a new frontier - towards Kryukovo. Battles here lasted for a week - from 1 to December 8. As the participant of those battles, the Kazakh Baltabek Dzheptysbayev, recalled, "there are few old Panfilov members." Another Panfilov member, L.N., recalled why this happened. Kurganov: "The regiment is battered. Of the 2,5-3 thousands left in the regiment about 600-700 people." In the 1073 regiment, commanded by Senior Lieutenant Bauyrzhan Momysh-Uly, only about 200 remained.

December 2 Germans still managed to break into Kryukovo. Fierce street battles ensued, Panfilov fought for each house. The commissioner of the 1073 regiment, Pyotr Logvinenko, told 1946 in December: "Kryukovo passed from hand to hand. From December 1 to 7, we went into attack every day. At four zero-zero, as a rule, we switched to attack" .

Mainly applied on both sides weapon close combat: machine guns, grenades, and from artillery - anti-tank and regimental guns on direct fire. The Germans, having mastered the village, immediately created a powerful defensive knot. An attempt to knock the Germans out of Kryukov on the night of 2 on December 3 was not successful. The enemy, concentrating two infantry battalions and up to 60 tanks, put up stubborn resistance. German tanks were ambushed in destroyed houses or were buried in the ground, firing aimed at our advancing units.

Severe frosts began near Moscow these days, the temperature dropped to minus 37. From the air, the Nazi attacked the Panfilov’s position aviation. “What’s the worst: we cursed clear weather near Moscow, we hated clear weather. But here (near Kryukovo) both snowstorm and snowstorm, but they still fly and beat and beat,” said Dmitry Potseluev-Snegin, in those days commander of the artillery division of the 857th artillery regiment.

The memories of Panfilov about Kryukovo are a harsh reality of the unformed feat, once again confirming the inexorable truth of the poet Mikhail Kulchytsky who died at the front: "War is not a firework at all, but simply is a difficult job." That's what they said about those battles in October of 1942, their participant A.S. Trefilov: “I reached a stone building through a fire curtain. There was a mortar fire. I ran through the field, ran to the building. There was a medical cart. Killed. He saw one guy killed, whom he had seen alive the day before. He went down into the pit. There was a torn man lying there. He dug it down in the snow. "

There were episodes, then trapped in a well-known Soviet song about the village of Kryukovo to the poems of Sergey Ostrovoy: "All the bullets ran out, no more grenades." Panfilovka Z.A. Bondarina told 1942 in August: “Our division led a long and difficult battle in Pod Kryukov. The front edge of the defense occupied brick sheds, these brick sheds will forever be remembered by the Panfilov. People left, sometimes the cartridge was missing. After the fighting, remembering them, we they loved to sing "Ten rifles for the whole battalion" ... But they held tight, did not move away. "

The song about ten rifles to the tune "Spinning, spinning a blue ball" for the front-line film collector was performed by Boris Chirkov in 1941. The poems of Vasily Lebedev-Kumach were not at all ceremonial:

Ten rifles for the whole battalion,
In each rifle the last cartridge.
In torn overcoats, holey sandals
We beat the Germans in different ways.

But even in such extreme conditions, people fought inventively, puzzling the Nazis. Here is a Panfilov P.V. story recorded in December 1946 of the year. Tatarkova: “Scout Protasov was especially distinguished. We had to take an observation point at the brick factory in Kryukovo, watch from here. Protasov, despite the fact that this place was cut off by the Germans, German machine guns were beaten with crossfire, he climbed into the pipe of the brick factory. a number of other infantry and other battalion fighters climbed through. From there, he led the observation and passed the command. "

The end of the story about the Panfilov battles at Kryukovo turned out to be optimistic. 4 December to 17: The 00 division received a replenishment in the number of 380 people. Commissioner Logvinenko recalled: "Selected people were sent to us - Siberians. They came to the 80 regiment, I would give them two thousand any other people. (...) We did not even have time to write down their names an environment where there was no time to write or read, you just had to shoot. "

December 5 fighters from the regiment of Momysh-Uly managed to seize the furnace and those same sheds of a brick factory. A day later, the position of the Nazis became vulnerable. Here is the story of A.M., written down in December of 1946, Vinogradov: "6 December 1941. At 12 hours of the night we began to conduct artillery training on Kryukov, and the General Command Headquarters gave us a solid replenishment. Eresovsky units appeared for the first time, and they provided us a very great service. Each division, each battery was assigned a certain a map of the field, a certain area, and this battery should literally mix with the earth everything that is there, both living and dead. "

Panfilovets F.D. Tolstunov in October 1944-st briefly described the victorious outcome of those December battles: "On the night from seventh to eighth, they launched an offensive. The Germans beat out Kryukovo station, captured 18 tanks. There were many Germans killed. After this our victory over the Germans at Kryukovo station Germans drive and drive them to Istra. "

As Commissar Logvinenko recalled, after the division was already sent to the reserve for resupply, a solemn meeting was held in Kryukovo, and those few Panfilov members who did not receive awards for the October battles and survived in November-December were given their combat orders.
Author:
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http://rg.ru/2015/12/04/boy-site.html
59 comments
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  1. bionik
    bionik 12 December 2015 06: 51
    +5
    28 Panfilovites.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 12 December 2015 10: 06
      +5
      from the very first words the journalist is not telling the truth
      A lot of people were awarded, see Shirokintsy.

      and secondly, it is clear that the damned Stalinist prosecutor’s office is ready to put everyone in prison, and only sleeps and sees, but ...
      but in real life. there was a fact that the killed heroes turned out to be alive, and one more he served with the Germans, I think any relevant bodies would start a check here.
      1. Lord of Wrath
        Lord of Wrath 14 December 2015 02: 02
        0
        Lord. There were enough feats in the war to admire, make films about them, write books.
        No one ever doubted that the soldiers of the 316 (later the 8 Guards) defended the approaches to Moscow with honor.
        I absolutely do not understand why it should be replicated and foaming at the mouth to prove something that really did not happen. This story was checked twice by the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office in 1948 and 1988, and both times it was recognized as "fictional fiction".
        The author deliberately substitutes dates and events. The battle at Dubosekovo was on November 16 in 8 km from Volokolamsk and, respectively, in 108 km from MKAD. And what the author describes refers to the period from November 30 to December 8.
        Can he simply open orders for rewarding, with a description of the exploits, and make a real movie about real heroes? Otherwise, we will look at the tanks under sails and the fascist asses from the plane shitting off the plane from Mikhalkov and the fire soldiers from Bondarchuk. And notice the money shot for the people
  2. Nagaibak
    Nagaibak 12 December 2015 07: 27
    +4
    The author cited the memoirs of veterans. Well, they’d call the article accordingly. I’m not talking about whether this is true or not. But, if you prove the feat of 28 Panfilov’s and referring to archival data, then take the trouble to present them. If there are archival materials, then give the name of the archive, fund number, inventory, case number, sheet number, where infa is taken from. For example: TsAMO, Fund No. 7, Inventory of case No. 1, Case No. 657, Sheet of case No. 69. My numbers are clear from the ceiling, but it should be so.
    Here is my comment. And the article could be entitled without mentioning the word archives
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 12 December 2015 08: 00
      0
      Yes, memories are inexpensive, as are newspaper publications. You can recall anything you want, as well as write. And only the yellowed sheets of documents give weight to the memoirs and newspaper articles. You are absolutely right, Andrey!
    2. Michael.
      Michael. 12 December 2015 09: 23
      12
      Nagabyk. You yourself would now put in that frozen ground a political club with the blood of friends. That you yourself would stand to death with the last bullet and go to the machine guns with a bayonet. I would then look at your crush of mind and reason. Our grandfathers were the heroes of 18 year old boys defended our country. And you get smart. You give the heading column archives. Why. There was heroism and this is important. My grandfather Pavel Osadchuk Captain of the Marine Corps. Sevastopol Kerch wrote to Odessa. Already in Kerch his brother pulled out honey from his grave noting that he was still alive among the dead. In this I am your arziv. Alive and writing to you. And in no archive you will not read it.
      1. Kent0001
        Kent0001 12 December 2015 12: 51
        +3
        I fully support. My grandfather near Prokhorovka was also pulled out of the mass grave by the funeral team. And this is my archive. But the exploits of Panfilov’s near Moscow have never been called into question and will never be set. There was a feat, and that’s it.
      2. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 12 December 2015 20: 02
        +3
        Mikhail: "Nagabay. You yourself would now be placed in that frozen ground with the blood of your friends."
        I don’t need to put me in frozen ground. And so, every other day and every day I get on there.))) Do you know if you have to. Do not believe come to us in Siberia to see.
        This is the first. Second, I wrote a remark in normal form. In my remark, I did not criticize or question any of those who said that the feat was. Not those who say that there was none. Personally, I believe that the feat was and may not be in the form in which it was presented to us earlier and nonetheless. And do not puff angry patriotic anger on me. I also know how.))) Relatives not only fought at you. And supporting evidence with documents is necessary especially if you write that according to archives. Do not back up anything. Write from the memoirs of veterans. This technical note was on my part. That's all. And you broke out ....))))
        A couple of days ago, I chopped one pshek here where your patriotic anger didn’t stop.))) If you are interested, go and read my comments. Henceforth, you will not be able to write such comments to me. Hehe ... and you are going to put me in the ground.)))
    3. Stas57
      Stas57 12 December 2015 10: 08
      +1
      Quote: Nagaibak
      . Well, they’d call the article accordingly. I’m not talking about whether this is true or not. But, if you prove the exploit of 28 Panfilov’s and referring to archival data, then take the trouble to present them. If there are archival materials, then give the name of the archive, fund number, inventory, case number, sheet number, where infa is taken from. For example: TsAMO, Fund No. 7, Inventory of case No. 1, Case No. 657, Sheet of case No. 69. My numbers are clear from the ceiling, but it should be so.
      Here is my comment. And the article could be entitled without mentioning the word archives

      http://warspot.ru/4282-na-podstupah-k-moskve
      here is the normal analysis of the battles of the division.

      TWICE I brought her here, but the stories of the Rostov journalist editorial staff were nicer
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 12 December 2015 16: 27
        +1
        "The darkness of low truths is dear to me / We are an uplifting deception", - writes A.S. Pushkin in 1830.
  3. Good cat
    Good cat 12 December 2015 07: 47
    10
    Who in general has the idea to question? What a difference how many there were, in what place, all the heroes and who was there! And it was not modern bureaucrats to determine whether a feat was or was not!
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 12 December 2015 07: 57
      +3
      Actually, this is necessary! We must live! Because when there are always many inconsistencies in a case, there will always be people who will say - this is an invention and disavow this case. Then a lot of such cases will be typed and ALL Fiction can be said, and people deprived of true information will have to believe! After all, it’s really stupid to believe in where there are more obvious inconsistencies than anything else. People do not like being deceived. And when they learn about deception, they don’t believe in anything at all. The best way to fight on this front is to find out honestly!
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 12 December 2015 08: 11
        +5
        Quote: kalibr
        Actually, this is necessary! We must live! Because when there are always many inconsistencies in the case, there will always be people who will say - this is an invention and disavow this case.

        And according to the recollections of those who worked in the State Archives of Moscow Region, there are still documents of the Second World War that are still standing there as they were laid and no one has read them or dismantled them.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 12 December 2015 08: 19
          +5
          You know, I have a question: AND WHO REMEMBERED? Who worked And who worked? I also worked there. The territory is huge - a military unit with its own department store, club and dining room. Reading room separately. Documents are stored in 8 mi (it seems) two-story, red brick buildings on two floors - the barracks architecture of the beginning of the century. You make a request for documents, a soldier drove up to the window of the archivist on a scooter with a suitcase and drove into this building! I drove inside the ramp ... And here's the question: those who worked with chores did not see what was in the hangars. Those who worked in hangars could see undisclosed matters. But who remembered? And in what years did this person work there? And in what position?

          And the same links and bloopers are walking around the newspaper publications.

          Therefore, they walk because there is no reliable information. The slogan NOBODY FORGOTTEN. Nothing was FORGOTTEN, but truthful information was missing! And many began to speculate on this! There would be information, there would be no speculators!
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 12 December 2015 10: 33
            +1
            ... And here is the question: those who worked with business did not see what was in the hangars. Those who worked in hangars could see undisclosed matters. But who remembered? And in what years did this person work there? And in what position?

            there is a leaflet in each case, as in the library in the book-who and when took and returned ...
            some things were taken before in 60x, some never.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 12 December 2015 11: 51
              0
              I know this, but another thing is important, but where are these unreassembled cases, who saw them and why are they not disassembled if they pay for work in the archive?
              1. Stas57
                Stas57 12 December 2015 16: 15
                0
                Quote: kalibr
                why are they not taken apart if they pay for work in the archive?

                what are they paying for? they pay in the archive to be stored.
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr 12 December 2015 16: 49
                  +1
                  Not just stored! And it was just sorted out, supplied with No.№, entered into the form. Otherwise, this is not an archive, but a warehouse!
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 12 December 2015 08: 00
    +4
    "Kryukovo passed from hand to hand. From December 1 to December 7, we went on the attack every day. At four zero-zero, as a rule, we switched to the attack

    He went on the attack a furious forty-first year.
    A platoon dies near the village of Kryukovo.
    All cartridges are over, there are no more grenades.
    Only seven young soldiers survived.
    Only seven young soldiers survived.

    The wounded lieutenant wheezed:
    Forward!
    A platoon dies near the village of Kryukovo.
    But hot bayonets do not hit at random.
    Only seven young soldiers survived.
    Only seven young soldiers survived.

    Mother of the night will cry
    A platoon dies near the village of Kryukovo.
    They will not build up positions, they will not go back.
    Only seven young soldiers survived.
    Only seven young soldiers survived.

    Sent by fires that distant year.
    At the village of Kryukovo was a rifle platoon.
    Giving honors, standing still
    In the guard on the hill of the sad seven soldiers.
    In the guard on the hill of the sad seven soldiers.

    So fate is assigned to these days
    At the village of Kryukovo they met.
    Where that immortal platoon died with glory
    It is noisy, the pine is noisy high, the bird nests.
    It is noisy, the pine is noisy high, the bird nests.
  5. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 12 December 2015 09: 31
    +2
    Quote: Amurets
    Quote: kalibr
    Actually, this is necessary! We must live! Because when there are always many inconsistencies in the case, there will always be people who will say - this is an invention and disavow this case.

    And according to the recollections of those who worked in the State Archives of Moscow Region, there are still documents of the Second World War that are still standing there as they were laid and no one has read them or dismantled them.

    It so happened that yesterday I got acquainted with the opinion of many serious people that whole layers of Soviet history were pulled out in different ways. These were just opinions and some examples. It turns out that someone cares and restores, and someone vice versa.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 12 December 2015 11: 36
      0
      Something I do not know of examples of something "pulled out in layers." What did you mean? About the missing "gold of the party" or about documents from the war period?
      1. Chiropractor
        Chiropractor 12 December 2015 11: 53
        +2
        About many things:

        - about the 2nd shock army ...

        - about the help of the Red Army to Western countries - now they think that the Soviets only stopped the Germans on their territory, and the Nazis began to retreat because all sorts of Poland and Hungary freed themselves ..
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 12 December 2015 16: 22
          0
          Who thinks that the Soviets stopped the Germans on their territory. Specifically? And which of the Western historians in which book, which publisher wrote about this?
      2. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai 12 December 2015 15: 33
        +1
        For CALIBER.
        "Something I do not know of examples of something" bursting out in layers. "What are you talking about?"
        The file of the Marshal of the Soviet Union, Hero of the Soviet Union, Commander of the Order of Victory after the assassination of Stalin IV was removed from the archive and destroyed by order of the Khrushchev team. What is not a destroyed layer of the history of the Great Patriotic War.
        Documents on Katyn, according to the Polish military personnel, were also destroyed by order of the same Khrushchev team.
        And Nikita Sergeevich himself thoroughly cleaned the archives while he was in power.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 12 December 2015 16: 13
          -1
          What marshal? And by the way, as I understand it, the person I asked about this was talking about NOW. He writes BURNING OUT IN STRING. This is PRESENT! And you write about the Khrushchev era. The era of the USSR. And that’s the difference, isn't it?
          1. Ivan Tartugai
            Ivan Tartugai 12 December 2015 18: 04
            0
            Guilty, missed the last name.
            The case of Marshal of the Soviet Union, Hero of the Soviet Union, holder of the Order of Victory, member of the RSDLP-VKP (b) -KPSS since 1917 Meretskov KA.
            Archive-investigation file No. 981 697 in relation to Meretskov was destroyed on January 25, 1955 on the basis of instructions from the Central Committee of the CPSU and an order from the chairman of the KGB under the Council of Ministers of the USSR IA Serov.
            “He writes BURNING OUT IN STRING. This is PRESENT! ”
            Most recently, in January, the library of the Russian Academy of Sciences was burned in Moscow. Consider several LAYERS torn out.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 12 December 2015 19: 13
              -1
              As far as the library is concerned, not at all. All this is in duplicates, even if not with us, but somewhere. As for Meretsky, I already wrote - it was under the USSR. And again - "burned", you know for sure that this is arson? Or is this also information from the words of journalists who live on fried facts? No other examples?
              1. Ivan Tartugai
                Ivan Tartugai 12 December 2015 20: 20
                0
                In the library of the Russian Academy of Sciences, in particular, documents on the League of Nations were burned. It tore the layer from the history of the country. Duplicates can eat abroad. Ask and they may give you a look, or they may not.
                They transferred or sold to the states the archive of the newspaper "PRAVDA", which is not a layer of history torn from the history of the country.
                So, the rights of Reptiloid are "RUNNING OUT" and at the present time, and very actively. You can give more examples yourself.
                Although it’s bad for history if the archive was destroyed under Khrushchev and bad if the archive was destroyed under Putin, at present.
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr 13 December 2015 16: 47
                  0
                  Quote: Ivan Tartugay
                  Although it’s bad for history if the archive was destroyed under Khrushchev and bad if the archive was destroyed under Putin, at present.

                  This is certainly true, but you just need to prove that they burned. Presumption of innocence, you know. I have not heard about the archive of Pravda sold in the USA. But ... I've written here many times: go read the Truth itself. And you think someone read it? Did you write that you started reading? And if "we" don't need it, then ... why keep? And so - at least some money! It is clear that this is wrong, but ... such is the given!
                  1. Ivan Tartugai
                    Ivan Tartugai 13 December 2015 19: 10
                    0
                    They burned the library of the Russian Academy of Sciences, definitely deliberately burned it.
                    Just like the traitor Gorbachev, but according to the presumption of innocence, you know, think about it, because you just have to prove it. And who will prove it? You?
                    There was a TV program on the Pravda archive, at which the new owner of the Pravda archive also spoke.
                    He asked the audience not to worry, they say the archive is in good hands, they will complete the digitization of the archive.
                    And if some material is needed, then contact, if we can, then we will help, of course, at a reasonable price. It will not be expensive.
                    Everything, the layer of the history of the country sailed across the ocean.
                    "... go read the Truth itself."
                    You understand, the archive of the Pravda newspaper is not a binder of Pravda newspapers.
                    "And if 'we' don't need it, then ... why keep?"
                    If you do not need it, this does not mean that we do not need it.
                    "And so - at least some money!"
                    Not some, but a lot of money, but not about you and not about operations for sick children.
                    Although if you share in the sale and transfer of the archive, then you are a rich person.
                    It is clear that this is wrong, but ... such is a given!
                    1. kalibr
                      kalibr 13 December 2015 21: 57
                      0
                      Well, it's a good idea to read the binder for a start, isn't it? Better a tit in the hand than a cuckoo in the sky. This time. If there is digitization, then everyone will benefit from this. In our archives, without digitization, everything is also for money and not cheap - take an interest. "Definitely burned on purpose?" This is unambiguous for you. But use your brains: it was the goose that laid the golden eggs. Nobody cuts such chickens! Like pissing against the wind and spitting. Do you know how much a found genealogy costs today? 10 thousand is the most nonsense, and many old women do not crawl out of the archives looking for relatives for people through ads. The archives have introduced the days when these "fragrant grandmothers" work there, there is not enough space and time for graduate students and applicants. And this is genealogy in the local archives ... And it was SUCH a library ... So it's not so simple!
                      1. Ivan Tartugai
                        Ivan Tartugai 14 December 2015 12: 50
                        0
                        “Well, to start with, it's a good idea to read the binder, right?”
                        Pravda newspaper binder is available in almost every regional library. True, mainly since 1956, i.e. after the 20th Congress of the CPSU. So read on.
                        Well, if you want to get more detailed information about a particular article, then contact the states now, you may or may not receive it, even for money and even not cheaply - take an interest.
                        “If there is digitization, then everyone will benefit from it.”
                        But strain your brains: it was a chicken laying golden eggs. Only now she lays golden eggs in another place, in the states and another owner. And it was SUCH an archive ... In each region, the newspaper had its own correspondent, correspondent points all over the world. Thousands of articles, tens of thousands of letters from all over the country, from all countries were sent to the editorial office daily, and of this total, a maximum of 1% was published. So it’s not so simple! But strain your brains. What a piece is torn from the history of the country. Tighten your brains, all the complete binder of newspapers is less than 1% of the archive. A solid, however, layer was torn out of the history of the country.
                        And there are dozens of such layers, hundreds torn from our history.
  6. R-22
    R-22 12 December 2015 10: 09
    +2
    Would you go the truth of the archival applicants doubting the archives and dragged into the light of white evidence if in doubt. And all kinds of speculators in history will still pour shit on you later. There were people and there was their heroic feat. and point. Eternal memory to them and a low bow. Yes, that’s not to be guessed by ourselves, if God forbid, you have to be in their place.
    1. swertalf
      swertalf 12 December 2015 12: 27
      +2
      There was a feat of specific people, and there was a fairy tale by the editorial board of "Krasnaya Zvezda" as presented by "specialists" who had nothing to do with this feat, but they also received awards for their epic character. Such storytellers are the speculators of history.
  7. kvs207
    kvs207 12 December 2015 10: 19
    +2
    The song about ten rifles to the tune "Spinning, spinning a blue ball" for the front-line film collector was performed by Boris Chirkov in 1941. The poems of Vasily Lebedev-Kumach were not at all ceremonial:

    Ten rifles for the whole battalion,
    In each rifle the last cartridge.
    In torn overcoats, holey sandals
    We beat the Germans in different ways.

    Actually, this is about the first world, so to speak, prehistory. Chirkov, in this song calls, to remember this and take revenge on the Germans.
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 12 December 2015 20: 45
      0
      You got ahead of me. And the author can be understood that in 1941 the Red Army men wore bast shoes ..
  8. Stas57
    Stas57 12 December 2015 10: 31
    +3
    New information about the heroism of the heroes Panfilov found in the archives

    I didn’t meet a single new point, the author quickly skipped over Wikipedia and retold it in his own words.

    The efforts of the "myth-fighters" have led to the fact that the "anti-legend" created by them overshadowed the space of real history in the perception of many of our fellow citizens.

    Ahrenet, this mythoborets are to blame? !!
    ask the average citizen, who knows what about those battles except 28?
    But who knows about the heroic story with sappers, where is the monument with Stug, the story that became the prototype for the legend of 28? The real story ...
    I shouted loudly here, guys, but make a film not about 28, but about the whole really heroic division!
    and to me in response:
    - do not touch the legend, it’s so convenient for us, it’s a symbol!

    why is the whole division not a symbol?
    why only 28 symbol, and division not symbol?

    and there’s nothing to argue about, but in the end we have-
    -division fought heroically and this is a fact
    -Division together with artillery and tank brigades of the Germans did not let.
    -division applied interesting tactical innovations.
    - there is not a single normal modern book on those battles
    -there is no movie that tells about it
    - etc
    all this suggests that the division is absolutely worthy that a movie would be made about it, about the entire division, and not about a "mythical symbol".




    http://warspot.ru/4282-na-podstupah-k-moskve
    here is the normal analysis of the battles of the division.
    Read, everything is based on archives, written clearly and clearly.
    I brought it here TWICE, but the stories of the editorial staff turned out to be nicer.


    but in general I’ll say that it’s probably good that all these scandals with Mironenko, all these discussions, disputes and the story with the film, people at least recognize.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 12 December 2015 11: 42
      -2
      You read what Zhdanov told about the feat of 28 during his visit to England. Then in 42, it reprinted True. It could have been worse, but nowhere. He did everything to believe it was impossible. Well, you don’t know how, don’t try to work in the ideological field, or read what smart people wrote to you! There is a phrase that when the Germans suggested they surrender, then one ran to give up and ... a volley broke out, executing the traitor. Why even write about the traitor? Secondly, did they all hold together a bunch of defenses or were they dispersed along the front? But if dispersed, how could they fire a volley? It is clear how the corrosive English reacted to this - typical Soviet propaganda! But did we really need such a reaction?
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 13 December 2015 12: 34
        0
        Something like this. Yes.
    2. Comrade Bender
      Comrade Bender 12 December 2015 16: 26
      +1
      There is a book! Memories of the regimental commander Momysh-Ula, recorded by a correspondent. Unfortunately, I don't remember what it's called. But there everything is harsh and truthful, without fiction and embellishment. Hard, and sometimes cruel. It's called like "Volokolamskoe highway", but I don't remember exactly.
  9. Denis Skiff
    Denis Skiff 12 December 2015 12: 25
    0
    The feat was. The British came to understand. They will never understand how.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 12 December 2015 16: 17
      0
      Lord, what kind of people ... Yes, I do not say that I was not! I wrote about this - quite legibly and in Russian, that it was not necessary to talk about him like Zhdanov said! Learn to read others, do not ascribe to them what was not discussed, and even turn on the brain a little. Understand - do not understand, it's different! There are cutlets, but there are flies - these are DIFFERENT THINGS!
  10. Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai 12 December 2015 19: 04
    +2
    What is surprising is the fact that the most ordinary division would have become famous and rightfully famous.
    The 316th Infantry Division is not some kind of elite unit or personnel unit with a rich military history, with military traditions. The most ordinary connection, which began to form at the beginning of the war literally from scratch, in the Gluhamani from the inhabitants of Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan. In a hurry, the most ordinary guys and men of different nationalities were called up Russians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks and others from villages and auls.
    Also in a hurry, the command structure of the division was formed, as they say from what was at hand. The same Momysh-uly, artillery senior lieutenant, was appointed to the post of commander of a rifle battalion, where there should be a captain or major with the appropriate education. The same political instructor Klochkov VG before the war was deputy director of the trust of canteens and restaurants, serving very distant from military service.
    The commander of the division was Major General IV Panfilov, also the most ordinary Soviet general, without academies, without the experience of modern warfare, because he did not participate in Finnish, was not at Halkin-gol, Hasan, was not in Spain. With experience of the Civil War and with education from a two-year infantry school. Without much experience in command service, as he was more involved in military administrative work.
    The division was formed in just two months and sent to the front, i.e. there was almost no time to study and put together a team, and became the most famous formation among the defenders of Moscow.
    1. tokens2
      tokens2 12 December 2015 19: 15
      +1
      The same political instructor Klochkov VG before the war was deputy director of the trust of canteens and restaurants, serving very distant from military service.

      And what? Germans, too, some were in the past dentists.
      Yes ... but counting the number of plates in dining rooms can be very useful.
      Well, for example ... in the production of anti-tank mines.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 12 December 2015 19: 39
      +1
      No wonder. A.N. Tolstoy wrote in War and Peace about the dedication of our people and this is another confirmation of this. But there were other cases, for example, despite the executions of alarmists and cowards right on the battlefield, the 97th Infantry Division (Southwestern Front) from August 6 to 8 unorganizedly retreated from the battlefield three times, losing up to 80% of its personnel and a lot of material parts (TsAMO, F.221, op.1362, d.34.L.195). On August 10-26, 1941, as a result of the panic retreat of the 34th Army, the following was lost: 60% of personnel, 54% of commanding personnel, 90% of tanks, 75% of rifles and machine guns, 73% of guns (TsAMO F.32,0p.11309.d .51. L.38). And these are not the only examples, although there are, of course, many more examples of the opposite, otherwise we would simply not have won.
      1. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai 12 December 2015 21: 28
        0
        The 97th Infantry Division is almost the exact opposite of the Panfilov VI 316th Division.
        This is a personnel connection. Formed in peacetime. She participated in both the Polish campaign and the Finnish war. In 1940, when the Zhukov GK commanded the Kiev district, it was considered the best KOVO formation. Well-equipped for the start of the war. But the commander was not at the right height of his position as a division commander. And on June 27, 1941, the division commander, chief of staff and one of the regiment commanders with accompanying persons disappeared.
        Thus, the division could die ineptly only because of the incompetent leadership or betrayal of the command.
      2. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai 12 December 2015 21: 46
        +1
        "And these are not the only examples, although the examples of the opposite, of course, are many times more, otherwise we would not have won."
        Well, in 1941, the “examples of the opposite” of which you think were many times more, in fact, not very many. You can count on the fingers. Otherwise, the Wehrmacht would not have reached Moscow. It wouldn’t have reached the Dnieper and Minsk would not have taken it on the fifth day of the war. The main fault in this tragedy of 1941 is not in ordinary soldiers of the Red Army, but in generals. Many among the generals and marshals of the Red Army were garbage, parasites and real traitors, especially in the main direction of the Wehrmacht’s strike.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 13 December 2015 16: 51
          0
          The whole war was meant! War in general!
          Quote: Ivan Tartugay

          Many among the generals and marshals of the Red Army were garbage, parasites and real traitors, especially in the main direction of the Wehrmacht’s strike.

          But how the above could have been in the "people's state", in the "people's army", under the watchful eye of the NKVD and the party? And about the privates I have archival data ... it's not generals who shoot at the enemy after all!
          1. Severomor
            Severomor 13 December 2015 23: 31
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            under the watchful eye of the NKVD and the party? And about privates, I have archival data ... after all, it’s not generals who shoot at the enemy!


            Enough about the bloody NKVD, you’re an adult, an educated person (by the way - it’s Soviet education)))), not a minor liberal-Gorbachev, well, literature and archives are available.
    3. Severomor
      Severomor 13 December 2015 12: 03
      +1
      Quote: Ivan Tartugay
      What is surprising is the fact that the most ordinary division would have become famous and rightfully famous.
      The 316th Infantry Division is not some kind of elite unit or personnel unit with a rich military history, with military traditions. The most ordinary connection, which began to form at the beginning of the war, literally from scratch


      The time was like that, not before the "elite" units, but for Rokossovsky 316 I was probably more than the "elite":
      “On the left flank, covering Volokolamsk from the west and south-west to the Ruza River, stood the 316th Infantry Division, which had arrived from the front reserve. General IV Panfilov commanded it, and SA Egorov was the commissar. We have not seen such a full-blooded rifle division, both in number and in security, for a long time. The commanders were strong, and political workers were nominated from the party and Soviet assets of the Kazakh CCP. In the formation of the division, she was greatly assisted by the Central Committee of the Communist Party of Kazakhstan.
      Already on October 14, I met with General Panfilov at his command post, and we discussed the main issues concerning the actions of his unit. The conversation with Ivan Vasilievich left a deep impression. I saw that I was dealing with an intelligent commander who had serious knowledge and rich practical experience. His suggestions were well founded. "

      Rokossovsky K.K. "Soldier's duty" head of the Volokolamsk direction
      1. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai 13 December 2015 20: 40
        +1
        Of course, the Rokossovsky KK was very glad that he had been transferred to the 316th Infantry Division, which they had not yet managed to pull apart. The Rokossovsky KK was also very pleased with the detachment of police volunteers who came to him from Moscow.
        “We have not seen such a full-blooded rifle division, both in number and in security, for a long time.”
        It so happened that the Rokossovsky KK fought mainly with disparate units and formations. Even at the beginning of the war, his mechanized corps was only called the "mechanized corps", as it was virtually without tanks and was a rifle formation. And naturally, seeing at his disposal a more or less equipped division, the Rokossovsky KK was very, very happy.
        But compared with personnel divisions, for example, with the same 97th rifle division, the 316th was clearly inferior in terms of security, for example, it lacked a howitzer regiment and an anti-tank division, and in training. The 97th Rifle Division was in 1940 the best division of KOVO. The then commander of the 97th division, Major General Sherstyuk, was awarded the Order of the Red Banner, precisely for his successes in military and political training and the unit entrusted to him. Of course, the 316th division did not have time to study and put together a team, two months is very, very small.
        But the main thing is their commander Ivan Vasilyevich Panfilov, an honest man did not separate himself from the soldiers of his division. All his actions indicate that he decided to win along with the soldiers of his division, and if not, then die with his soldiers. He did not just command, he created a division, grew into it, he lived his division.
        1. Severomor
          Severomor 13 December 2015 21: 15
          +1
          It so happened that the Rokossovsky KK fought mainly with disparate units and formations. Even at the beginning of the war, his mechanized corps was only called the “mechanized corps,” since it was virtually without tanks and was a rifle formation.


          So also near Smolensk, Yartsev and Solovyov ferry it was the same - "subjugate everything that retreats", ..... headquarters and 2 trucks with quad maxims.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  11. Pomeranian
    Pomeranian 12 December 2015 20: 46
    0
    You are all right. But I will say, paraphrasing the classic: "If this feat had not existed, it would have been worth inventing!"
    1. tokens2
      tokens2 12 December 2015 21: 35
      +1
      Pomeranian
      You are all right. But I will say, paraphrasing the classic: "If this feat had not existed, it would have been worth inventing!"

      don’t hesitate. There were no such feats. Moreover, even from the concentration camps our soldiers and officers made shoots. Tearing weapons out of the hands of the guards.
      Moreover, the majority died, giving a chance to the rest of their comrades.
      And here is the division! With weapons in hand!
      true with french obsolete guns.
      The exploits were much more incredible than the exploit of 28 Panfilov’s.
      And here they are ... for some reason you especially believe.
      kalibr
      For example, despite the shooters of alarmists and cowards right on the field

      they usually run when the soldiers are not sure of the commanders. And there were a lot of such cases.
      To blame exclusively the soldier for panic. The fear of 1941 is simply stupid !!!
      If there was general mobilization a month before the war, there would be no panic. Blitzkrieg was a short-term and sudden virus.
      Power and command are responsible for surprise.
      But not a soldier.
      1. Ivan Tartugai
        Ivan Tartugai 12 December 2015 21: 50
        +1
        Pomeranian.
        You are right. A soldier must be sure of his commander. If the soldiers are confident in their commander, then they are with him. Together. And if there is no faith in the commander, then everyone on his own, everyone thinks of himself.
        1. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 13 December 2015 21: 07
          0
          Right. But don't forget about the motivation. That feat of 28 Panfilov's men was a good motivation for the troops defending Moscow in the fall of 1941. Therefore, I repeat: If this feat was not there, it must have been invented. "
  12. Ratmir
    Ratmir 13 December 2015 00: 29
    0
    A beautiful work about that time: http://royallib.com/read/bek_aleksandr/volokolamskoe_shosse.html#0
  13. DDsurgut
    DDsurgut 18 December 2015 13: 56
    0
    Eternal memory to heroes, not invented, but alive !!!
  14. Idiot
    Idiot 11 January 2016 17: 38
    0
    Feat 28 was and I do not care who and what says. And there were many feats that, like thousands of streams, gradually merged into one mighty full-flowing river. This river swept 19 million European evil spirits into the trash of history. It is a fact. And I would advise all truth-seekers to check the exploits of German, American and British miraculous warriors.
  15. Idiot
    Idiot 11 January 2016 17: 38
    +1
    Feat 28 was and I do not care who and what says. And there were many feats that, like thousands of streams, gradually merged into one mighty full-flowing river. This river swept 19 million European evil spirits into the trash of history. It is a fact. And I would advise all truth-seekers to check the exploits of German, American and British miraculous warriors.