Military Review

SPG "NONA" and "VIENNA"

55
SAU "NONA-S"




During its heyday, the Soviet airborne troops (the last two decades of the existence of the USSR) were an impressive force. The then adopted military doctrine provided for the use of the Airborne Forces as a means of anticipating enemy actions during strategic offensive operations. Six airborne divisions, more than ten separate airborne brigades and regiments, separate brigades and special-purpose battalions could make a rustle in any corner of the globe. An example of this is the lightning capture of Prague in 1968 by the 7th and 98th Guards Airborne Divisions and even faster capture of the 103rd Guards Airborne Division in Kabul in 1979. Large-scale combat operations of “winged infantry” on enemy territory - namely, it was planned to use the Airborne Forces - they required considerable firepower. It could be provided only by artillery, acting together with the paratroopers. The airborne self-propelled artillery ASU-57 and ASU-85, which were in service with the landing forces in the 60s, had the main task to combat tanks. But the landing of a relatively heavy ASU-85 was carried out only by landing a transport aircraft on the runway, which limited the main tactical advantage of the landing - surprise. Therefore, in the mid 60-ies. in the USSR began the design of a fundamentally new combat vehicle BMD-1. On its basis, they decided to develop a self-propelled gun, called 2C2 "Violet".

But the use of a rather powerful 122-mm artillery gun, borrowed from the Gvozdika self-propelled guns, led to the fact that the BMD-1 chassis did not withstand overloads when firing. In addition to Violets, also based on the BMD-1, a self-propelled 120-mm breech-loading mortar 2-8 "Lily of the Valley" was developed for the Airborne Forces. But he was not adopted. By the middle of the 70-x, two light tanks (“934 object” and “685 object”) were created on a competitive basis on the Volgograd tractor and Kurgan machine-building plants, also for the Airborne Forces weapons which was a long-barreled 100-mm gun. However, for a number of reasons, they too were not adopted. The task of creating a powerful self-propelled fire weapons to support the actions of paratroopers continued to remain very acute. At about the same time, the BTR-D tracked amphibious armored personnel carrier was adopted by the Airborne Forces. Its main difference from the BMD-1, on the basis of which it was created, was the absence of a rotary tower and an elongated chassis for one roller, which increased the load capacity. At the same time, under the direction of Doctor of Technical Sciences Abner Novozhilov, designers from the Central Research Institute of Precision Engineering, in Klimovsk near Moscow, together with experts from the famous Motovilikha in Perm, created a fundamentally new 120-mm rifled 2-X51 gun to directly support ground forces. This made it possible to develop in 1981 an armed artillery system, which combines the functions of a cannon, a howitzer and a mortar.

Self-propelled artillery gun (SAO) was called 2C9 "NONA-S". According to one of the legends that always arise when creating a new weapon, “NONA” is not the name of a woman, but an abbreviated abbreviation of the name - “The New Ground Artillery Tool”. Even for today, the NONA-S is a unique artillery system that combines the properties of various types of guns and is intended for direct fire support of the airborne units on the battlefield. The capabilities of the CAO allow it to be used not only to defeat manpower and destroy enemy defenses, but also to fight against tanks, for which various ammunition is included in the ammunition. First of all, these are special high-explosive fragmentation artillery shells with ready-made cuts on the leading belt; Such projectiles can be fired at a distance of up to 8,7 km, and their low initial speed (367 m / s) allows firing with a large steep trajectory. The effectiveness of the fragmentation of such projectiles is close to the effectiveness of conventional 152-mm high-explosive fragmentation projectiles of domestic and foreign howitzers. An important characteristic of the weapon directly supporting the troops on the battlefield is its smallest firing range: for a projectile it is 1,7 km, and for a mine is 400 m. Therefore, self-propelled ammunition can include ordinary 120-mm mortar mines - high-explosive, lighting, smoke and incendiary. Sighting range of high-explosive fragmentation mine - 7,1 km.

Since it is not always possible to count on timely delivery of ammunition during operations in the rear of the enemy, the self-propelled gun provides for the possibility of using 120-mm high-explosive fragmentation mines from mortars of armies of other countries. This allows us to support our troops from firing positions in the battle formations of infantry. In addition to shells and mines, the CAO's ammunition includes active-rocket projectiles. They have a special jet engine that allows you to increase the firing range to 13 km. Recent developments of domestic designers allowed the creation of guided (self-guided and corrected on the trajectory) projectiles for artillery, which are aimed at the target using a laser pointer, attacking it in the most unprotected place, from above, and hit the tank with probability 0,8-0,9. Such shells called "Kitolov-2" can be used in the CAO "NONA".

Shooting range "Kitolov" - to 9 km. To combat armored vehicles can be used not only precision munitions, but also conventional cumulative projectiles. The relatively high initial speed of such a projectile (560 m / s) provides him with high accuracy of firing at armored targets at a distance of up to 1000 m, and the ability to penetrate more than 600 mm steel armor allows, if necessary, to fight with the main tanks of the enemy. Since loading such a weapon at high angles of elevation, especially characteristic of a “mortar” firing, is a rather laborious exercise, it was equipped with a special pneumatic discharging mechanism. Compressed air is also used to purge the barrel after each shot, which significantly reduces the pollution of the crew compartment. The need to parachute the CAO required to make the self-propelled gun easy. Therefore, the armored hull of the CAO is made of aluminum alloys, but nevertheless it protects the crew and equipment from rifle-and-machine-gun fire. Powerful diesel engine in 240 l. with. and hydropneumatic suspension provide self-propelled gun greater mobility - the maximum speed on the highway to 60 km / h, and afloat to 9 km / h. The controlled suspension provides not only smoothness, but also makes it possible to change the amount of ground clearance: if necessary, the height of self-propelled guns can be reduced by 35, see the experience of combat use of this installation, including in Afghanistan, showed its high reliability: "NONA-S" its fire more than once rescued our paratroopers. Raised almost to the zenith barrel, it was possible to solve such tasks in the mountains that howitzers and guns could not cope with. The high effectiveness of the combat use of the new gun proved the need to have it not only in the airborne troops, but also in the ground forces. Therefore, especially for equipping motorized infantry battalions of ground forces, the towed 1986B2 NONA-K was developed and adopted in 16.

SAU 2C31 "Vienna"

SPG "NONA" and "VIENNA"


2С31 "Vienna" - Russian 120-mm self-propelled artillery gun. The CAO 2C31 was created on the BMP-3 chassis. 2С31 “Vienna” was developed in the city of Perm at the Motovilikhinsky plant. The first copy was made in 1996 year. Currently (2008) exists in single copies.
First presented at the IDEX-97 exhibition in the United Arab Emirates.
Vienna is designed to suppress manpower, artillery and mortar batteries, rocket launchers, armored targets, fire weapons and command posts at a distance of 13 km, while it is able to automatically adjust its fire according to the results of the notch breaks, and is able to independently reconnoiter the targets day and night. Able to conduct aimed fire from closed positions and direct fire without prior preparation of the firing position.
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  1. Civil
    Civil 20 July 2013 08: 50 New
    35
    Margelov Nona dragged on his teeth in serial production, Vasil Filippych blessed memory of you!
    And there is no one to protect Vienna ...
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 21 July 2013 15: 47 New
      0
      Or maybe someone will explain: why are two approximately equivalent BMs needed for our troops?
      BMP and BMD? And, yes, also a floating tank for the marines.
      The answer to this question will give an answer and whether both NONA and Vienna systems are needed.
      It is easier to equip the BMD and BTR-D motorized infantry to a heap for BTR80 (BTR90).
      And tighter BMD (NONU) to upgrade to a greater level of excitement (for marines).
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 21 July 2013 16: 04 New
        0
        Quote: dustycat
        The answer to this question will give an answer and whether both NONA and Vienna systems are needed.

        "Nona" and "Vienna" are not "BMP and BMD". These are BMD-1 and BMD-4M
      2. Gorchilin
        Gorchilin 22 July 2013 10: 18 New
        0
        BMD has too specific requirements. The implementation of these requirements in the BMP is unreasonable and illogical.

        Let's say the BMD has aluminum armor, almost twice as light as the BMP, has a complex chassis with a clearance change system.

        Specific requirements required the creation of a completely new machine. Although, of course, in the mind it would be possible to unify this technique to the maximum, at least in terms of components and assemblies.
        1. A_Alex
          A_Alex 25 July 2013 22: 53 New
          0
          tried it didn’t work out too different requirements. Only BMP 3 and BMD3-4 have interchangeable parts and then not much
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 26 July 2013 00: 07 New
            0
            Quote: A_Alex
            Only BMP 3 and BMD3-4 have interchangeable parts and then not much

            BMP-3 with BMD-4m unified by 80%
      3. Vidok
        Vidok 28 August 2013 16: 57 New
        +1
        The approximate equivalence lies in the fact that the BMD base allows it to be dropped and not only by landing (and even with a crew), but the BMP is not parachuted. Roughly the same in the case of NONA (in everyday life "Nyurka") and VIENNA, and this is not an unimportant difference ...I think so.
      4. Alekseev
        Alekseev 5 September 2013 11: 56 New
        0
        Quote: dustycat
        Why are two approximately equivalent BMs needed for our troops?
        BMP and BMD?

        Without going into details, (take an interest in yourself at your leisure). BMP differs from BMD approximately like KAMAZ from GAZON.
        BMD-ultralight machine with the possibility of landing, its security was sacrificed to this quality.
        A kind of armed "tracked jeep" for operations behind enemy lines.
  2. Lopatov
    Lopatov 20 July 2013 09: 36 New
    19
    Somehow very superficial.
    One gets the impression that "Nona" was created from the mid-70s exclusively as a self-propelled weapon for the Airborne Forces.

    In fact, this is not the case. "Nona" was originally created as a towed weapon, just this option turned out to be the most problematic, and therefore "Nona-k" (the customer refused the standard name "Nona-B" for moral and ethical reasons) became the last in the line of these guns. Development began almost from the moment the artillery direction was formed at TsNIITOCHMASH under the leadership of V.A. Bulavsky.

    The GRU played an important role in the creation of "Nona". It was they who, somewhere, found the ownerless newest French 120-mm rifled mortar MO-RT-61 with a dozen rounds to it, and handed it over to TsNIITOCHMASH for testing. Their results helped a lot to make a decision to develop at TsNIITOCHMASH and NII-3 GRAU the "Lilia" theme - a towed combined weapon for ground forces.

    Itself "Nona-S" was created in almost a year. The development was lobbied by Margelov himself on these conditions.
    1. Akim
      Akim 20 July 2013 11: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: Spade
      somewhere they found an ownerless latest French 120-mm rifled mortar MO-RT-61 with a dozen shots to it,

      Thanks for the new information.
  3. Metlik
    Metlik 20 July 2013 09: 45 New
    19
    Vienna causes only respect and admiration. This equipment is urgently needed in the army in large quantities. The history of the Crimean war is repeated: the generals considered that the rifled fitting is too expensive a weapon - as a result, they had to pay with the lives of Russian heroes. And most importantly - we lost the Crimean war. There are no too expensive weapons - there are too backward rulers.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 20 July 2013 10: 17 New
      +2
      I absolutely agree with you. In addition, it needs to be improved. Finally, create normal ammunition, allowing the loading mechanism to be screwed onto the "Vienna"
    2. xetai9977
      xetai9977 20 July 2013 18: 03 New
      +5
      We bought 18 units of the Vienna self-propelled guns. I personally like the Vienna very much. But it seems that in Russia itself "Vienna" is not very favored. And what is "Khosta" better than "Vienna"? The performance characteristics are not very different.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 20 July 2013 18: 16 New
        +1
        Ours are misery. "Host" is much worse than "Vienna". This is essentially the same 2C1 just with a different barrel. But cheaper.
        1. xetai9977
          xetai9977 20 July 2013 18: 25 New
          +5
          Thanks for the information. It’s obvious that a good technique cannot be cheap. Yes, it’s a really mean person pays twice.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 20 July 2013 18: 59 New
            +2
            It's my pleasure. You have the opportunity to check the adequacy of the guys from your MO. If the "Veins" go to the infantry battalions, that's fine. If they are combined into one artillery battalion, then they bought 2S31 just for show-off.
            1. Akim
              Akim 20 July 2013 19: 09 New
              0
              Quote: Spade
              If they are combined into one artillery division, then they bought 2C31 just for show-offs.

              Most likely it’s a show off, in the form of a separate division, like 10 BMPTs from Kazakhstan., Although maybe for the brigade of marines?
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 20 July 2013 19: 19 New
                0
                But then, too, is normal.
                As far as I remember the tactics of the Marine artillery, they planned to actively use the 2S1 "Carnations" for direct fire until the tanks pulled up. Therefore, they even had a different battery staff - 3 fire platoons, two guns each.
                Accordingly, when tanks appeared, the division was going to fire with closed fire.
                1. Akim
                  Akim 20 July 2013 19: 49 New
                  0
                  Quote: Spade
                  As far as I remember the tactics of the Marine Corps artillery,

                  I thought so. It is just that in Ukraine they are planning (or were already planning) to transfer marines to the BTR-3. And to equip their battery with MOSFs, though with 2A51.
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 20 July 2013 20: 13 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Akim
                    And to equip their battery with MOSFs, though with 2A51.

                    Here, in theory, is completely different. These newfangled MOSs are designed primarily for direct-fire firing - tank SLA, stable weapons, etc.

                    "Vienna", in turn, is intended primarily for shooting from closed.
                    Automated inertial and satellite referencing with data transmission upward, automated aiming and restoration of aiming after a shot in the horizontal and vertical plane, inclusion in ASUNO

                    It's just that its direct and semi-straight firing capabilities are expanded: there is a night sight, a laser sighting range finder, the Shtora is installed, however, in a cut-down version, without an image intensifier station

                    By the way, who is producing shells with finished rifles?
                    1. Akim
                      Akim 20 July 2013 20: 37 New
                      0
                      Quote: Spade
                      Here, in theory, is completely different. These newfangled MOSFETs are designed primarily for direct fire-


                      Who said that we must repeat the path of the Americans ?. On MOP-4 it is also installed as on "Vienna" and "Host" 2A80. However, you are right. Let it be called a self-propelled gun. This is not the yacht "Trouble". The essence does not change from the name. And the Marines do not have them yet.
                      1. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 20 July 2013 20: 46 New
                        +1
                        The trunk itself does not matter much. Nobody bothers to shove a 2A51 or 2A80 into a T-62 in place of a standard gun and call this hybrid an "assault gun", "infantry support tank" or MOP.

                        Here you need to look at the very configuration of the LMS.
                      2. Akim
                        Akim 20 July 2013 21: 36 New
                        0
                        The American M1128 can really only shoot at a tank. However, it has a much simpler SLA. But a fire support vehicle can have a higher elevation angle. In any case, the Kharkov MOS-4 it is not much higher than the tank, but does not even reach the howitzer, not to mention the mortar. But we went far from the topic. Let it be self-propelled guns based on BTR-3. I won’t argue. In principle, changing mortars to MOS is not advisable.
                      3. Lopatov
                        Lopatov 20 July 2013 21: 43 New
                        +1
                        It is inappropriate to change mortars to MOPs. Reinforcing infantry units with MOPs in the event of a lack of tank support, as in American striker brigades, is quite normal.
                2. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 21 July 2013 22: 51 New
                  +3
                  Quote: Spade
                  Here, in theory, is completely different. These newfangled MOSFETs are designed primarily for direct fire-

                  In my opinion, direct fire, for example, against a tank of lightly armored vehicles based on armored personnel carriers (BMPs, BMDs) is not a very healthy idea. With return fire from the tank a little will not seem.
                  For example, the Dushman BRDM - ours came from a tank (T-62):
                  1. Lopatov
                    Lopatov 21 July 2013 23: 03 New
                    0
                    You have infantrymen using this technique. And firepower must be increased at least in this way. In addition, the infantry is now oversaturated with anti-tank weapons. The Americans have 1-2 ATGMs in their squad. The tank does not particularly shoot at "easy targets"
                  2. Bad_gr
                    Bad_gr 22 July 2013 11: 01 New
                    +4
                    Quote: Spade
                    And firepower must be increased at least in this way. In addition, the infantry is now oversaturated with anti-tank weapons.

                    "Nona", "Vienna" with their ability to fire from closed positions, and, if desired, direct fire - I think they will be much more in demand than a weapon with a high kinetic power of the projectile, on lightly armored vehicles, which can only fire when seeing the enemy (and therefore, and appeared to the enemy).
  • Poppy
    Poppy 22 July 2013 15: 45 New
    +1
    Well, it wasn’t quite like that in the Crimean war, legends are
    in fact, the army was simply too large, they didn’t have time to quickly rearm everything, and it’s expensive to supply them with new guns at once
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 20 July 2013 09: 47 New
    19
    Another interesting fact about the towed "Nona".
    Initially, it was a combined weapon. From the mortar position she could shoot mines and shells with ready-to-use rifles, and in the horizontal position she could work as a recoilless gun and two additional ammunition, HE and cumulative, were developed for him.
    1. igor.borov775
      igor.borov775 20 July 2013 11: 37 New
      +6
      This product was developed for the new troops that appeared in the SA. They were the mountain rifle who were waiting for this new product.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 20 July 2013 13: 34 New
        +2
        Yes, it was originally a "120mm light mountain gun"
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 20 July 2013 09: 57 New
    +2
    And further. In addition to "Nona-S", "Nona-SVK" and "Nona-K", the line includes the 2007B2 "Nona-M23" mortar adopted in 1
    1. tupolev-95
      tupolev-95 20 July 2013 21: 30 New
      -1
      Interesting! And the photo is off and what is this MLRS nearby?
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 20 July 2013 21: 52 New
        +1
        "Smerch" At the KamAZ base. Half a package.

        Exhibition "Technologies in Mechanical Engineering - 2010"

        http://vitalykuzmin.net/?q=node/312
  • calculator
    calculator 20 July 2013 10: 04 New
    +1
    But what about the transition to a single 152mm caliber?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 20 July 2013 10: 15 New
      +1
      It is impossible. 152mm mortar mines do not exist. And 122-mm shells for "Nona" - "Vena" - "Hosts" are radically different from the shells D-30 / 2S1 "Carnations"

      In addition, 152 mm for the battalion artillery is overkill. The convoy will not pull.
      1. PLO
        PLO 20 July 2013 12: 08 New
        +2
        Nevertheless, they want to push short 152mm SGs into the battalions in the new states of heavy brigades.
        so far, their role will be played by the Acacias, then the circumcised Coalitions

        although I am also somewhat embarrassed by the unmunization in ammunition
        1. Akim
          Akim 20 July 2013 12: 55 New
          0
          Quote: olp
          although I am also somewhat embarrassed by the unmunization in ammunition

          NATO countries use 120 mm mortars along with 155 mm howitzer artillery and nothing. And if you make a 152-mm mortar, it will only be breech-loading, because the weight of the mine will be about 40 kg.
          1. PLO
            PLO 20 July 2013 13: 27 New
            0
            NATO countries use 120 mm mortars along with 155 mm howitzer artillery and nothing. And if you make a 152-mm mortar, it will only be breech-loading, because the weight of the mine will be about 40 kg.

            in battalions of heavy brigades they want to use both 120mm self-propelled mortars and 152mm short self-propelled howitzers at the same time
            I am actually confused by the unification of artillery shells in the battalion itself
            1. Akim
              Akim 20 July 2013 13: 42 New
              +2
              Quote: olp
              and 120mm self-propelled mortars and 152mm short self-propelled howitzers

              This is foolishness. The Motorized Rifle / Mechanized Battalion defends the line of 5 km, and advances at three and up to 5 km in depth. These are mortars and their function. As for the "Akats", they cannot lay down their shells so accurately before the offensive and transfer the fire in depth so that the advancing troops do not fall under "friendly fire". Even if they automate the aiming process. Strong high explosive effect and short distances. I think the regimental 122mm howitzers could have been removed, but adding 152mm to the battalion is not worth it.
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 20 July 2013 12: 59 New
          +2
          That you misunderstood something, or used the wrong information.

          Firstly, there is simply no self-propelled short-barrel 152 mm. There is a towed Pat-B, there is a promising self-propelled guns for the Airborne Forces based on it, the work on which seems to have been stopped.
          2С3 will have time to work out their resource until they are completely replaced in art. divisions of brigades.

          Secondly, no one in their right mind will give up mortars. There are simply no howitzers capable of completely replacing them.

          Maybe you just heard statements of various kinds of gurkhans about the need to develop self-propelled guns for direct support of infantry with a caliber of 152 mm?
          1. PLO
            PLO 20 July 2013 13: 05 New
            0
            That you misunderstood something, or used the wrong information.


            This is something you misunderstood ..

            I did not say that they are giving up 120mm self-propelled mortars, I said that in addition to them, the battalions of heavy brigades will have a battery of 152mm "short" SGs, at the moment it is Akatsia

            Firstly, there is simply no self-propelled short-barrel 152 mm.

            2C3?
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 20 July 2013 13: 15 New
              0
              Quote: olp
              2C3?

              They will all be cut by the time they are completely withdrawn from the brigade level.

              2S18 was abandoned even under the USSR, there is nothing new
              1. PLO
                PLO 20 July 2013 13: 24 New
                0
                They will all be cut by the time they are completely withdrawn from the brigade level.
                2S18 was abandoned even under the USSR, there is nothing new

                "short" Coalition?
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 20 July 2013 13: 43 New
                  +2
                  In terms of price, it will not be much cheaper than the "long" one, but in the "Coalition" it is necessary to replace first the 2S19 in the artillery brigades, then the remaining 2S3 in the motorized rifle brigades. We will not pull.

                  Well, besides, this is a shed with a shed, which is clearly not worth rolling out on a half-direct and a straight one.
              2. Akim
                Akim 20 July 2013 13: 46 New
                0
                Quote: Spade
                They will all be cut by the time they are completely withdrawn from the brigade level.


                There are thousands of "Akats" in Russia. They can be successfully modernized.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 20 July 2013 13: 57 New
                  +2
                  Meaning? In 2006, with kapitalka used trunks and engines from Soviet stocks, which by that time were already running out. It is possible to maintain the combat readiness of those in service, but not to modernize. Therefore, the topic with 2C3 informatization was closed, although the kit was created.
                  1. Akim
                    Akim 20 July 2013 14: 15 New
                    0
                    Quote: Spade
                    Therefore, the topic with 2C3 informatization was closed, although the kit was created.

                    In Russia, it seems, they only limited themselves to modernization with an automated fire control system. And as for the engines. I think there are new ones in Chelyabinsk. Capital is not modernization - other money. So they gutted the old stocks. "Msta-S" costs about the same money as "Crab". But I already wrote. They refused to buy it, referring to the fact that this is the price of upgrading 3-4 Akatsiy. I understand that the budget of the Russian army is immeasurably larger, but it is not worth squandering money, especially as you know that Msta is not capable of firing old shells. In Ukraine, 55 OBRs have now taken out from the D-20 reserves so that the old shells from the bases are "disposed of", and the standard 2A65s remained in the park and did not go to the exercises.
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 20 July 2013 14: 24 New
                      +4
                      2С3 do not upgrade, only capitalize. The most innovative of the works performed at the same time is the replacement of the 123rd radio station.

                      "Msta" is not capable of shooting old charges, not shells. And to shift the bunches of gunpowder in accordance with the new hitch is a small problem.
                      1. Akim
                        Akim 20 July 2013 14: 31 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        "Msta" is not capable of shooting old charges, not shells.

                        Sorry. Wrong. Indeed, theoretically, it can shoot even royal shells (times 1 MV).
  • Prapor Afonya
    Prapor Afonya 20 July 2013 10: 36 New
    +1
    Quote: Metlik
    Vienna causes only respect and admiration. This equipment is urgently needed in the army in large quantities. The history of the Crimean war is repeated: the generals considered that the rifled fitting is too expensive a weapon - as a result, they had to pay with the lives of Russian heroes. And most importantly - we lost the Crimean war. There are no too expensive weapons - there are too backward rulers.

    Not only the troops need Nonna, but other types of weapons, and first of all, smart heads for commanders, there will be smart commanders, there will be order and necessary weapons in the troops!
    1. igor.borov775
      igor.borov775 20 July 2013 11: 45 New
      +1
      Vienna appeared at a very inconvenient time, Funding and other things were reduced, And the system itself is very good and in the mountains and the city where you need to shoot at the mortar, the Yankees were very interested in this system after joint firing at the Kosovo firing range, They were struck by the accuracy and speed and this Yankees highly respected
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 20 July 2013 13: 00 New
        0
        What time is it now? Why are they abandoning "Vienna" in favor of "Hosta"?
        1. ty60
          ty60 12 August 2015 12: 53 New
          0
          Someone is lobbying, probably supporters of the MTLB base.
  • chenia
    chenia 20 July 2013 11: 40 New
    0
    Yes, it would be nice to introduce into the battalion instead of a min.batra, a non-assault gun battery. But expensive pleasure.
    1. Akim
      Akim 20 July 2013 11: 45 New
      0
      Quote: chenia
      But expensive pleasure.

      Not really. The Russians, on the other hand, use the Khosta instead of mortars.
    2. Lopatov
      Lopatov 20 July 2013 13: 00 New
      +1
      Quote: chenia
      non-assault gun battery.

      "Nona" is not an assault weapon.
      "Nony-SVK" and "Hosts" are already entering the battalions

      "Veins" were also created specifically for battalion artillery. That is why they have expanded capabilities for direct and semi-direct fire. Almost a tank MSA
      1. Prohor
        Prohor 20 July 2013 15: 31 New
        +1
        I will add - not "already" they are coming, but given they are, in our 168 Separate Motorized Rifle Brigade in the ZabVO battalions were completed with "Nonami" in 1997.
  • chenia
    chenia 20 July 2013 12: 16 New
    0
    Quote: Akim
    Not really. The Russians, on the other hand, use the Khosta instead of mortars.


    To the battalions? But in principle, the base MTLB (boxes in bulk (including 2s1) and do not need to invent). And Hosta, you’re right, perhaps, more preferable than Nona. Well, there is the opportunity to use, and as an assault gun.
    1. dustycat
      dustycat 21 July 2013 16: 58 New
      +2
      Quote: chenia
      To the battalions? But in principle, the base MTLB (boxes in bulk (including 2s1) and do not need to invent).

      MT_LB ???
      The thundering horror on the wings of the night ?! belay
      This is not a platform, this is a mockery of the crew.
      I rode this monster while I was studying as a radiotelegraph operator at DOSAAF from the military registration and enlistment office in front of the army. The aft compartment is especially "pleasant".
      If you don’t get attached to the chair after 10 km of the landfill, the corpse is simply taken out.
      The author of this machine must ride without belts in the aft compartment of 100 kilometers. am
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 21 July 2013 18: 20 New
        0
        But MT-LB is the best terrain vehicle in the RF Armed Forces.
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 20 July 2013 19: 39 New
    +3
    Thank God, the current leaders of Russia did not allow the Russian airborne forces to be "reformed". But what attempts were made! The commanders of the Airborne Forces defended the most efficient troops! Weapon designers create great designs for our winged infantry. NONA is recognized as a unique weapon. Just don't stop. The winged guard of Russia needs the best weapons!
    1. Prohor
      Prohor 20 July 2013 20: 24 New
      0
      The combat capability of the Airborne Forces is an indisputable fact, only the relevance of this type of troops is questionable. It seems that after Kabul there were no "airborne" operations, and the Airborne Forces acts as a kind of motorized rifle elite. Or am I mistaken?
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 20 July 2013 20: 34 New
        +2
        No, they are needed. They just need to be optimized for the performance of tasks in modern wars. Which is somehow very reluctantly done
      2. dustycat
        dustycat 21 July 2013 16: 08 New
        +2
        Quote: Prokhor
        The combat effectiveness of the Airborne Forces is an indisputable fact, but the relevance of such troops is questionable.

        Rather, the preparation of motorized infantry is far behind the requirements of modern battles so much so that instead of it you have to poke the Airborne Forces.
      3. max702
        max702 21 July 2013 18: 36 New
        +3
        A friend of the Airborne Forces said that the very fact that we had the possibility of landing in the rear of the enemy forces the adversary to invest colossal funds and forces to neutralize such actions ... like a fleet, it’s like not fighting anywhere and makes you reckon with yourself ..
      4. creak
        creak 21 July 2013 18: 39 New
        0
        By the way, even in World War II, the Airborne Forces were used on an extremely limited scale. With the exception of a few tactical landings (not always successful), Soviet airborne divisions were used as rifle divisions. This picture was also observed in the Wehrmacht - after the capture of Crete, the Germans no longer carried out such operations using the Airborne Forces. On a larger scale, the US and UK airborne forces were used, although not all operations were also successful (Market-Garden).
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 20 July 2013 20: 25 New
    +4
    In Holland, a race over a distance of more than one hundred kilometers took place. The paratroopers of the Pskov division won. In full force arrived at the finish line! Americans and Europeans looked depressing. Glory to the Russian Airborne Forces!
  • mirag2
    mirag2 20 July 2013 20: 30 New
    +3
    Although here we are talking about guns, and not about the BMP, I will say here because this article is the freshest about something on the BMP3 platform, I saw a program about the new BMP of the state LAV3 b I was killed by what they said that “... shells of 50 caliber ... "- what a plague! It's a 12.5mm machine gun! And that's it! Why find fault with our BMP, which holds a 30mm cannon from its forehead?
    Although, of course, the new Swedish infantry fighting vehicle with a more powerful weapon and other trends towards enlargement should nevertheless become a role model ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 20 July 2013 20: 41 New
      +1
      Quote: mirag2
      - I saw the transfer of the new BMP shtatovskoy LAV3 b

      It seems to be Canadian, the General Daynemics branch was created there. Well, what to do, everything has its limit. You can not endlessly modernize the Swiss "Piranha" of the late 70s
    2. ProkletyiPirat
      ProkletyiPirat 11 December 2017 03: 12 New
      0
      Quote: mirag2
      Why blame our BMP, which holds a 30mm gun from its forehead?

      30mm ours? that is, just BB is not BPS \ OBPS? I remember there were articles on VO about subcalibers for NATO guns and they calmly penetrate BMP \ BMD.
  • castle
    castle 20 July 2013 22: 27 New
    +2
    I'm not special in artillery, but just curious. What is your opinion on Patria Weapons Systems, a private, if I understand correctly, NEMO (Nеw Моrtar) and AMOS (Advanced Mortar System) systems? They seem to offer all buyers of Russian BMP-3 the installation of the AMOS system on these BMPs. And the weight in the combat position of such a complex (or system) is not more than 18,8 tons.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 20 July 2013 23: 26 New
      0
      Very good samples. The main plus is the automatic loader. And, accordingly, a high rate of fire. Minus in comparison with "Vienna" - they shoot only mines.

      It is currently impossible to create an automatic loader for "Vienna". It is associated with ammunition, more precisely with additional charges.
      1. ProkletyiPirat
        ProkletyiPirat 11 December 2017 04: 20 New
        0
        I’m not an artilleryman, and I agree that the automatic loader is our everything. BUT in amos, AZ efficiency is not an advantage over manual loading. Because after each shot (double) you need to transfer the gun to the loading line, then transfer the projectile from the AZ to the rammer, then from the rammer to the breech and then aim the barrels and shoot. On the face of the impossibility of amos shooting in MRSI mode. Therefore, this system will not allow to reduce the required number of vehicles for a full fire raid. Consequently, there will be as many cars, but conventional self-propelled guns will be cheaper and will have greater reliability due to the ease of loading and the presence of a loader.
  • phantom359
    phantom359 20 July 2013 23: 10 New
    0
    Normally, the brains were set right away with the most gifted. we bet on the Airborne Forces They have on the Marine Corps, although, it seems to me, they were right. In such cases, more BTA regiments were needed to block the Marine Corps.
    1. Owl
      Owl 21 July 2013 09: 10 New
      +2
      In the USSR, there was enough aviation to drop one division at a time, and if in tactics, a battalion-regiment-division, then in a day half of the Airborne Forces could be landed in the rear of the enemy. But this, in a war with a high-tech adversary, is impossible, NATO members by the concentration of BTA aircraft would have foreseen possible actions and with tactical nuclear weapons they would try to destroy the BTA aircraft and airborne forces on the ground, the USSR armed forces would try to "clear" the passage corridors and drop areas with nuclear weapons , the enemies would have tried to destroy the anti-aircraft missiles with nuclear warheads of the VTA air divisions with paratroopers on board in flight. With all the calculations, a battalion (at best a regiment) would carry out the task from the airborne division in the enemy's rear, this is the arithmetic. Nuclear deterrence of both the Airborne Forces and the USMC will not allow them to perform their tasks.
  • castle
    castle 21 July 2013 00: 19 New
    0
    Thank. And here my idle train of thought begins. Patria write that the elevation angles (?) Of the trunk are from -5 to +85 degrees. How can such a mortar fire mines at angles of 0 to 30 degrees? I do not take into account any development of the XM-984 with an auxiliary rocket motor. With this mine, it seems, they are going to shoot 12 km. This is already some kind of combination of a missile-missile shell. Then, probably it will be possible to do only with such mines (or what should this cartridge be called)?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 21 July 2013 00: 43 New
      +2
      Quote: hrad
      Patria write that the elevation angles (?) Of the trunk are from -5 to +85 degrees. How can such a mortar fire mines at angles of 0 to 30 degrees?

      You can breech-loading. "Nona" is also breech-loading. It's just not very effective. The mortar was not just created. In general, there are many mortars firing at elevation angles less than 45 degrees. For example, our "Cornflower"




      Quote: hrad
      This is already some kind of combination of a missile-missile shell. Then, probably it will be possible to do only with such mines (or what should this cartridge be called)?

      Active reactive mine. We have such. True, only a 240 mm self-propelled mortar

  • castle
    castle 21 July 2013 01: 00 New
    0
    Clear. I will still have to google and read. Just wondering. And then I’m more and more from the air, but somehow at one time I fell under the arm of mortars, that's why I became interested.
  • Owl
    Owl 21 July 2013 08: 56 New
    +1
    In the late 80s and early 90s (until August 21, 1991), there were talks about the gradual replacement of the 120 mm mortar battery with the armored personnel carrier in the SME with a battery with Nona-SVK installations. In these plans, everything was very beautiful: all armored vehicles on base vehicles of the BTR-80 type, all equipment of the RMTO (logistics companies) on URAL-4320 vehicles, all equipment is diesel and of the same type. But it went smoothly on paper, and the events ruined not only good ideas, but the state collapsed from the Gorbachev-American "democracy" and "perestroika".
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 21 July 2013 09: 28 New
      +1
      Quote: Eagle Owl
      But it was smooth on paper, and events ruined not only good ideas

      Maybe it's good that they ditched.
      "Nona-SVK" is not a very good KSAU. Like the "Nona-S", it has limited horizontal guidance angles of 35 degrees to the right and left of the vehicle axis. In order not to roll over when fired. But if for the latter it does not pose a particular problem - it got up, turned on the spot, again on its belly, then for Nona-SVK it is necessary to build a parallel fan again. And this is the time.
      The problem is solved by installing modern topographic reference equipment, but no movement in this direction is observed
      1. Akim
        Akim 21 July 2013 09: 54 New
        0
        Quote: Spade
        "Nona-SVK" is not a very good KSAU. Like the "Nona-S", it has limited horizontal guidance angles of 35 degrees to the right and left of the vehicle axis


        But still it is better than 10 degrees on 2B11. It should also be borne in mind that such a technique lands in a landing method. Those. unlike the Airborne Forces regiment, airborne targets are set. not tasks. They do not act independently, but in the subordination of the infantry. And here the mobility of technology is important. Here, that there is no normal top-bin - this is of course a minus.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 21 July 2013 10: 04 New
          0
          Quote: Akim
          It should also be borne in mind that such a technique lands in a landing method.

          ?
          What is the "landing"? "Nona-SVK" for marines and infantry. And not at all for aeromobilists for the simple reason that the helicopter cannot pull it.
          1. Akim
            Akim 21 July 2013 10: 10 New
            0
            Quote: Spade
            And it’s not at all for aeromobilists for the simple reason that a helicopter will not pull it.


            Landing method is not only helicopters. By the same principle, we can say - why do they need APCs? Equipment makes a march from the nearest airfield.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 21 July 2013 11: 14 New
              +1
              Quote: Akim
              By the same principle, we can say - why do they need APCs?

              Really, why? They have UAZs to get to the airport. Who are planning on replacing something like Iveco-Lynx. Plus one battalion with standard airborne equipment.

              If they need "Nona" then only "Nona-M" and "Nona-K". The first in the battalions, the second in the artillery of the brigades to replace the D-30, if, of course, such a decision is made.

              And by landing method "not from a helicopter" our airborne units land. Having the appropriate equipment and in armored personnel carriers, they definitely do not need.
              1. Akim
                Akim 21 July 2013 11: 34 New
                0
                Quote: Spade
                And by landing method "not from a helicopter" our airborne units land. Having the appropriate equipment and in armored personnel carriers, they definitely do not need.

                Not all vehicles can be reset. Airmobile units are DShs that have been transferred to the Airborne Forces or reclassified from the parachute brigades. The paratroopers in Pristina rushed not on the BMD, but on wheeled vehicles, and the "train" only later pulled up. So why can't Nona-SVK be in that formation?
                And about the BTR-80 are right. It must be changed, to a lighter and equally effective.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 21 July 2013 11: 56 New
                  0
                  Quote: Akim
                  Not all equipment can be reset.

                  Exactly. And therefore, why should the air assault brigades have something that they cannot use in battle? They get what can be thrown by helicopters. By artillery- D-30, 120-mm and 82-mm mortars.

                  Quote: Akim
                  The paratroopers in Pristina rushed not on the BMD, but on wheeled vehicles, and the "train" only later pulled up. So why can't Nona-SVK be in that formation?

                  They just arrived there without their equipment. Peacekeepers.
                2. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 21 July 2013 12: 04 New
                  +3
                  And by the way, did you see this photograph related to the events in Kosovo?
                  2 BMDshki, "Rheostat" and battery "Non"
              2. dustycat
                dustycat 21 July 2013 16: 21 New
                0
                Quote: Spade
                Who are planning on replacing something like Iveco-Lynx.

                No longer planning, thank God.
                If possible, fighting off is not better than an UAZ vehicle - you also have to open the doors (albeit armored).
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 21 July 2013 17: 01 New
                  +2
                  IVECO-LYNX is better armored than an UAZ vehicle and also has protection against landmines.
                  There is no reason to "fight back" in them. For a simple reason, fire from loopholes on the move is not effective, but with a stop, it is fatal for the shooter.
  • chenia
    chenia 21 July 2013 12: 35 New
    0
    Quote: Spade
    But if for the latter it does not pose a particular problem - it got up, turned on the spot, again on its belly, then for Nona-SVK it is necessary to build a parallel fan again. And this is the time.
    The problem is solved by installing modern topographic reference equipment, but no movement in this direction is observed


    I appreciate your humor. Recovery of aiming - half a minute, Put the car on wheels - ???

    In general, that is, the concept of OH (main direction), 35 degrees is more than 10-00 (BS is a large displacement). Even a drunken SOB is not able to place the battery with such an offset (it’s easier to make a mistake at 30-00, i.e. 180 degrees.)

    But is it necessary? Then complete the beds (in our case, the body). Restoration of the pickup for the battery (SOB) is 2 minutes, and if the VT (pickup point) is more than 1,5 km, then independently using the existing goniometer.

    Quote: Spade
    The problem is solved by installing modern topographic reference equipment, but no movement in this direction is observed


    The battery has long been attached, and SOB has the means to do so. If you mean the individual binding of the guns, with a significant dispersal of the guns of the battery and with the determination of its place in the fan? That is clearly unnecessary for battalion artillery.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 21 July 2013 13: 05 New
      +3
      Quote: chenia
      I appreciate your humor. Crosstalk recovery - half a minute,

      You wanted to say, orienting the guns and building a parallel fan. For how many cars? In addition, it is possible that in this case you also have to carry the compass or transfer the SOB machine. With the inevitable loss of time.

      Quote: chenia
      In general, that is, the concept of OH (main direction), 35 degrees is more than 10-00 (BS is a large displacement). Even a drunken SOB is not able to place the battery with such an offset (it’s easier to make a mistake at 30-00, i.e. 180 degrees.)

      In fact, there are local wars in which the main direction is often not assigned at all. When we were standing in the base centers, the planned goals for posting the columns were located in the 60-00 sector.
      It is time to stop thinking in front-rear categories, this is not particularly in demand now.

      Quote: chenia
      But is it necessary? Then complete the beds (in our case, the body).

      Unfortunately, the BTR-80 does not know how to deploy on the spot. So to change the sector, you must either drive forward or pass back. Do you realize that a remote aiming point doesn’t really help?

      Quote: chenia
      The battery has long been attached, and SOB has the means to do so. If you mean the individual binding of the guns, with a significant dispersal of the guns of the battery and with the determination of its place in the fan? That is clearly unnecessary for battalion artillery.

      Modern gun topographic reference systems give not only XYh, but also the true azimuth of the machine axis. That allows you to abandon the pickup points in general, to ensure pickup and restore pickups in an automated mode, to provide automated input of corrections for the interval and ledge.
      Further, provide an order of magnitude shorter opening time for firing from the march, which means that the infantry will be supported continuously (the battery will not fall out during the movement).
      Further, provide less vulnerability to counter-battery combat.

      Why did you decide that this is redundant for battalion artillery?
  • chenia
    chenia 21 July 2013 14: 49 New
    +1
    Quote: chenia
    In fact, there are local wars in which the main direction is often not assigned at all


    You can see a younger one, I took my belt off more than 20 years ago. Yes, another time, other tasks. In our time, this state is a special case. And to hell with her nona cw with such performance characteristics.

    I'm for HOST. Saturation of battalion artillery with self-propelled guns is still an economic load (this is instead of simple samovars) a load, so it is better to use what is rational. MTLB (base) the best option, cheap, simple and bulk boxes, upgrade. For airborne NONA was created even if there is sent.

    Quote: Spade
    Modern gun topographic reference systems give not only XYh, but also the true azimuth of the machine axis. That allows you to abandon the pickup points in general, to ensure pickup and restore pickups in an automated mode, to provide automated input of corrections for the interval and ledge.


    With this goodness, God forbid, to provide divisional artillery, otherwise systematically PROTONS with GLONAS fall.
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 21 July 2013 15: 25 New
      +2
      Quote: chenia
      Yes, another time, other tasks. In our time, this state is a special case.

      And now it’s rather normal.

      Quote: chenia
      I'm for HOST. Saturation of battalion artillery with self-propelled guns is still an economic load (this is instead of simple samovars) a load, so it is better to use what is rational. MTLB (base) the best option, cheap, simple and bulk boxes, upgrade. For airborne NONA was created even if there is sent.

      "Nona-S" is currently the same outdated model of weapons as 2S1, 2S3, and will be replaced by an analogue of "Vena" on the same base as "Sprut-SD"

      Simple samovars have not yet said their last word. In all kinds of airmobile operations, for fighting in the mountains, for the Airborne Forces, they are currently irreplaceable. In addition, a special set of automation tools has been developed for them.

      1V183 products1V183 products


      Disadvantage Hosts are not in the database, even though it is problematic due to resource exhaustion. The disadvantage is that they decided to make it cheaper, practically emasculating the "Vein", removing almost all the electronics from it. And leaving a complex similar to "Vienna" only in one "commander's SPG" (??? !!!) per battery.
      Well, the base - they refuse from BMP-3, for the infantry the car is not very convenient due to the peculiarities of the layout. And the car itself is beautiful. Why not remake the chassis debugged in production for various kinds of special machines, including "Vienna"

      Quote: chenia
      With this goodness, God forbid, to provide divisional artillery, otherwise systematically PROTONS with GLONAS fall.

      There is nothing more. Provide, maybe not actively enough. "Tornado-G", modernized "Msta-S" is already in the army. There is simply no way out. If under the old American Takfire ACS it was about a one and a half minute gap when opening fire on a firing battery, then during field tests of the new Afadts ACS in Afghanistan, the military was outraged by a system delay of 4 seconds before opening fire on a detected target.
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 21 July 2013 23: 28 New
        0
        Quote: Spade
        BMP-3 is abandoned, for infantry the car is not painfully comfortable due to the layout features.

        BMP-3 is in service with 12 countries and is currently one of the best-selling.
        1. Lopatov
          Lopatov 21 July 2013 23: 32 New
          +1
          Quote: Bad_gr
          BMP-3 is in service with 12 countries and is currently one of the best-selling.

          This does not allow to leave the landing without substituting under the bullets of the enemy.
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 21 July 2013 23: 41 New
            0
            Quote: Spade
            Quote: Bad_gr
            BMP-3 is in service with 12 countries and is currently one of the best-selling.

            This does not allow to leave the landing without substituting under the bullets of the enemy.

            They are covered on the sides with armored covers.

            Opinion of the officer (practice) about the BMP-3:
            "BMP-3: view from behind armor" - http://www.nationaldefense.ru/includes/periodics/maintheme/2013/0513/113510702/d
            etail.shtml
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 22 July 2013 00: 15 New
              +2
              Quote: Bad_gr
              The opinion of the officer (practice) about the BMP-3: "BMP-3: a view from behind the armor"

              I wonder if the author deliberately "forgot" about the difference in the suspension of the BMP-1,2 and BMP-3? About the mechanism for changing the clearance of the latter? To broadcast on the blue eye about the advantages of a rear engine.

              I am sure that he managed to sit behind the levers of MT-LB. And I learned about its excellent handling. But this is bad luck, her engine is not in the stern ...

              In short, another article on the topic "no need to wait for the Boomerangs-Kurgan, invest now ..." I can find such articles on any weapon model that has no equivalent in the world, starting with the T-90 and ending automatically.
              1. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 22 July 2013 01: 23 New
                0
                Quote: Spade
                Interestingly, and the author deliberately "forgot" about the difference in the suspension of the BMP-1,2 and BMP-3?

                The BMP-3 has a torsion bar suspension as the BMP1-2.
                ".... Suspension BMP-3 - individual, torsion bar, with hydraulic telescopic double-acting shock absorbers on the first, second and sixth suspension nodes. In the first, second, fourth and sixth suspension nodes, rollers travel stops with rubber stops are used. Torsion bars of the left and the starboard sides are misaligned. ... "
                http://army.lv/ru/bmp-3/701/57
                Quote: Spade
                About the mechanism of change in clearance of the latter? To broadcast on the blue eye about the benefits of rear engine positioning.

                Air suspension for BMD, not BMP.

                Quote: Spade
                In short, another article on the topic "no need to wait for the Boomerangs-Kurgan, invest now ..."

                The same agrees with this opinion. Already now, for example, BMDs were leaving every conceivable timeframe, if you delay their replacement, in which case, the transport will have to be borrowed from the local population. And even with the appearance of new types of equipment ("Boomerangs-Kurgantsov"), the troops will not be saturated with them instantly.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 22 July 2013 01: 55 New
                  0
                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  Air suspension for BMD, not BMP.

                  Good morning. On BMP-3 variable clearance. Just read the paragraph from the link you provided.


                  Quote: Bad_gr
                  The same agrees with this opinion. Already now, for example, BMD has passed all conceivable dates, if you delay with their replacement, in which case, you will have to borrow vehicles from the local population.

                  Do you realize that in this case "Kurganets" with "Boomerang" will never appear in the army? Because by the time they reach their end of life, it will be necessary to create new machines?
                  1. Bad_gr
                    Bad_gr 22 July 2013 10: 13 New
                    0
                    Quote: Spade
                    On BMP-3 variable clearance.

                    Variable clearance allows you to raise, lower, level the car on a slope, but for a comfortable ride, it does not add anything. And in order that the car would not bite your nose - the same thing.
                    To improve the conditions for the crew during the fast movement of the car, it is important to balance the car and the location of the crew closer to the center, which is used on the BMP-3.

                    By the way, BMD-4m is 80% unified with BMP-3. What is not a single platform for their different varieties?