Military Review

Day of Military Glory. The beginning of the counteroffensive of the Soviet troops in the Battle of Moscow

99
Federal Law No. 32-FZ of 13 March 1995 of the year defined a special day, the Day of Military Glory of Russia, on the calendar of military holidays and memorable dates. The day the Soviet forces launched a counter-offensive in the battle of Moscow in 1941. 5 December The Red Army launched an active phase of the counteroffensive on a broad front from Kalinin in the north to Yelets in the south, which led to a crushing defeat that seemed invincible to Hitler’s armada.


Day of Military Glory. The beginning of the counteroffensive of the Soviet troops in the Battle of Moscow


This was the first defeat of the fascist forces, who until then had been accustomed exclusively to marches and with smiles on their faces to pass through the European capitals, to take towns from a swoop, pre-showering their inhabitants with a hail of bombs, shooting from long-range guns if they had the audacity to resist then "bearers of democracy." So it was with a variety of cities, but it did not happen with Moscow. And the “General Frost”, which was not composed by liberal historians, and the notorious “supply difficulties” stopped a huge army of Germany and countries in vassal dependence on it. The Nazis were stopped by the heroic Soviet soldier in the broadest sense of the word - the soldier behind whom stood the people and the Fatherland. He fought to the death and deserved immortality, even if he fell then - in 41-m, slain by a bullet or a fragment of the enemy.



As a result of the counteroffensive, the Hitlerites were thrown back from the Soviet capital, and their dreams of marching along the Red Square remained frozen in ice and snow under Mozhaisk and Volokolamsk, Maloyaroslavets and Rzhev. The bravura songs of Nazi Germany lost their frank major, and for the first time in the Reich slipped a note of doubt about whether "it was necessary ..." Then she slipped only in units, including relatives and friends of those German soldiers, from whom only birch remained in the Moscow Region crosses with helmets pierced on them.

From the speech of I.V. Stalin:
The German invaders counted (...) on the weakness of the Red Army and the Red fleet, believing that the German army and the German fleet will be able to overturn and scatter our army and our fleet from the first blow, opening the way for unhindered advance into the depths of our country. But the Germans cruelly miscalculated here too, overestimating their strength (...). Of course, our army and our fleet are still young (...) they have not yet managed to become fully staffed, while they have before them a manned fleet and a manned army of Germans who have been at war for 2 years. But, firstly, the morale of our army is higher than that of the German one, because it defends its homeland from foreign invaders and believes in the rightness of its cause, while the German army wages an invasive war and robs a foreign country, unable to believe at least for a minute in the rightness of his vile deed. There can be no doubt that the idea of ​​protecting our Fatherland, in the name of which our people are fighting, should give rise to and indeed give rise to heroes in our army, cementing the Red Army, while ideas of capturing and robbing a foreign country, in the name of which the Germans actually wage war , should give rise and indeed gives rise to professional robbers in the German army, deprived of any moral principles and corrupting the German army. (...)
And if these fierce imperialists and the worst reactionaries still continue to dress up in the toga of “nationalists” and “socialists”, then they do this in order to deceive the people, fool the simpletons and cover up their predatory imperialist essence with the flag of “nationalism” and “socialism”.


By the beginning of December 1941, the overwhelming majority of foreign newspapers wrote off Moscow, practicing forecasts only as to whether the Germans would have time to take the city before Christmas (Catholic), or they would have to “linger” on the approaches to the capital of the USSR for another two or three weeks. ". However, the Moscow counter-attack was inflicted so suddenly and effectively that neither for Christmas nor for any other special holiday did the Hitlerites have legs in the capital. Although ... Why not? They nevertheless passed ... Then ... In front of watering machines, under escort, under the hated glances of thousands of Muscovites who took to the streets to look at the "superhumans" whom the Russian army had broken the back of Moscow, buried three times in Hitler's speeches and notes from a number of Western publications.



From the memo (the spelling and punctuation of the source are preserved) by the commander (at that time) of the Western Front troops G.K. Zhukov from November November 30 1941 (with the offensive plan near Moscow) to Commissar of Defense Comrade Stalin:

P.3
The immediate task is to strike Klin-Solnechnogorsk and in the Istra direction to smash the enemy’s main grouping on the right wing and to knock off the Nodal and Mother of God (k) flank and rear of the Guderian group to smash the enemy on the left wing of the armies of the Western Front.
P.4
In order to constrain the enemy forces on the rest of the front and to deprive him of the possibility of transferring troops 5, 33, 43, 49, 50, armies of the front are going on the offensive with limited objectives.
P.5
Main grouping aviation (3/4) will be aimed at interacting with the right strike force and the rest with the left Lieutenant General Golikov.


The document is Stalin's stroke with the resolution "I agree."




Behind these seemingly simple and mean phrases there is, firstly, a colossal intensity in preparation for the state of affairs at the front, and secondly, that feat, which by definition cannot be put to any formulations.

Early in the morning of December 5, the connections of the left wing of the Kalininsky Front, and around 14: 00 (MSK) and the connections of the right flank of the 5 Army, launched their striking blows at the enemy. This clearly violated the plans of the Nazis, as German field marshal von Buck argued about the practical impossibility of concentrating Soviet troops for a counteroffensive.

At the time of the counteroffensive of the Red Army, the preponderance of the Nazis in l / s was 1,7 million against 1,1 million for the Soviet formations, in tanks - 1170 against 774, in mortars and guns -13,5 thousand against 7652. The only power segment where the USSR had an advantage was the air fleet: 1000 aircraft against 615 from the Nazis.

6 December 1 Shock entered into action, as well as 13, 20 and 30 armies. The 7 and 8 of December were connected to the offensive by the right flank and the center of the 16 Army and the task force of Lieutenant-General F. Kostenko, the left-flank connections of the 16 Army, the task force of Lieutenant General P. Belov, and 3-I and 50- I am the army. The fierce battles took place on the Istra, Klin, Yelets, Solnechnogorsk directions.

In the battle of Moscow, the German army lost about half a million soldiers and officers, no less than 1250 tanks, 2,5 thousand guns, military vehicles.



From materials of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation:

For valor and courage shown in battles 40 units and formations were awarded the title of Guards, 36 thousand soldiers were awarded orders and medals, 187 people were awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union and Hero of the Russian Federation (later). The medal "For the Defense of Moscow" was awarded to more than 1 million people (including about 381 thousand soldiers and about 639 thousand civilians). 8 May 1965 Moscow was awarded the honorary title "Hero City".
Photos used:
http://stat.archive.mil.ru
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  1. Igor39
    Igor39 5 December 2015 07: 26 New
    -33
    Of course, I admire the feat of soldiers, but the article was presented so that almost Stalin stopped the Germans, the speech, the resolution on the plan, this is certainly good, but the question arises: Who let the Germans go to Moscow?
    1. avvg
      avvg 5 December 2015 07: 48 New
      36
      Igor, you're wrong! There has never been a case in history when an army defeats in spite of its commander. There has never been a case in which a country triumphs in spite of the one who led it. The people won the war not in spite of Stalin, but thanks to Stalin.
      1. Igor39
        Igor39 5 December 2015 07: 53 New
        -25
        According to your logic, so thanks to Stalin we were in a situation of 41 years?
        Unpreparedness for war, the belief that the Germans will not attack, and so on.
        1. Darkness
          Darkness 5 December 2015 08: 13 New
          14
          Resonist? Or did another liberal crap start?
          1. gladcu2
            gladcu2 5 December 2015 15: 41 New
            +5
            Darkness

            Young, but stupid. He really doesn’t get it. Education bookmarks are affecting.
            1. Talgat
              Talgat 6 December 2015 16: 41 New
              +3
              Unfortunately, the myths of the liberals (and, frankly speaking, the slanderous rumors launched by external opponents) penetrated society

              Naive. even a stupid lie (such as Stalin decapitated the army and then slept through the attack - and the people defeated the Germans against him) - and the second - Stalin hatched insidious plans to attack Europe himself) still walks in the minds of citizens of both Russia and Kazakhstan

              Of course, now more and more people understand. that, generally, thank God that the bourgeoisie of the whole world did not rush to Eurasia (as they were supposed to in geopolitical science) as a whole

              I still wonder why the Germans (uniting Europe - in fact it was NATO at that time) did not unite with Amers and England and together they did not kill Eurasia, a thousand-year-old geopolitical enemy, represented by the USSR. I think that this is the merit of Soviet diplomacy and foreign policy.

              Думаю, что Советское руководство вынуждено было лавировать почище чем при "рафтинге" - и цена ошибки была бы гибель всей Евразии (как минимум тяжелейшее поражение и рабство народов на века)
              Все наследие Аттиллы , Кипчаков, Золотой Орды и царской России было бы "просра но"

              Слава богу, этого не случилось, в послевоенные годы победившая Евразия построила общество - мечту - СССР и достигло невиданных высот справедливого общества и уровня жизни. создало анклав свободы и независимости от доллара и "мировых поработителей"

              And even the betrayal of the 90's and the collapse of the Union still did not put an end to Eurasia as the world of civilization and the center of power. There is no USSR, but Russia is standing, and the integration process has not gone anywhere and is going on - Belarus and Kazakhstan have retained strong states, Kyrgyzstan and Armenia are weaker. but they are reunited with us, and there are others - like drops of mercury merge into one
              1. The comment was deleted.
        2. mirag2
          mirag2 5 December 2015 08: 16 New
          25
          Yaranee lived near Moscow, in Kryukovo, 41 km from Moscow, the remains of the Unknown Soldier that lies on Red Square are taken from there, further towards Moscow-Skhodnya, about 25 km to Moscow (in the sense of the center, not to the outskirts) -that is to Skhodnya The Germans reached us. At our school there was a stump of a birch trunk — all in fragments and bullets. And the building was protected in Kryukovo — there was an ambulance there — they fought for him, as for Pavlov’s house in Stalingrad — it was completely beaten with bullets and fragments .And we found so many little traces of war — I myself found a rifle without a stock and fore-end — well, everything was iron, a 3-ruler, some kind of saber without a handle, a bayonet — our, 4-faced, and not countable cartridges. there were 2 dams and a river connected them — all together 5 kilometers long and very deep, and only already in the 4th grade, I learned that it was an anti-tank ditch. We had an elderly teacher, she talked about it, she dug with others him. I was struck by a monstrous moat, dug by hand ... hi
        3. Predator
          Predator 5 December 2015 15: 51 New
          +4
          Quote: Igor39
          According to your logic, so thanks to Stalin we were in a situation of 41 years?
          Unpreparedness for war, the belief that the Germans will not attack, and so on.

          As the leader of the country I.V. Stalin is responsible for the situation of 1941. but in terms of most likely excessive credulity to his staff - Tymoshenko, Meretskov, Zhukov, Shaposhnikov, Pav
          fishing for others with big stars. What didn’t he give them ?! Tanks -3x, airplanes-3.5th, art-2.5th numerical superiority over the Wehrmacht, -2.5 times for automatic infantry weapons (except for machine guns). that our rifle division will defeat 1.5 infantry, and the tank division up to 3 infantry or 2 tank?! Didn’t they knock themselves on the chest convincing Stalin that there was nothing new in German military thought and we were ready to tear the adversary’s head and march, march on Berlin?! Were they not repeating, with little blood and on foreign territory?! How could he not believe them, steep-shaven and multi-star?
          What could he have expected such a rout of the western districts under the strict guidance of marshals and generals who stupidly set up their troops?! And then in the 1st week of the war asking for resignation?! And after the death of Stalin who had the audacity to declare that we were not ready for the war? did not give to manage?
          Without such self-sacrifice and heroism of the Soviet people at the front and in the rear and the mind and will of Stalin, we would not have won this war in 4 years.
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 5 December 2015 16: 38 New
            -3
            Zhukov, Shaposhnikov and other generals, and marshals were not shots, as you called them. You are full of nonsense. Read the memoirs of G.K.Zhukov, the pre-war situation is well shown.
            1. Predator
              Predator 5 December 2015 17: 13 New
              +1
              Quote: bober1982
              Zhukov, Shaposhnikov and other generals, and marshals were not shots, as you called them. You are full of nonsense. Read the memoirs of G.K.Zhukov, the pre-war situation is well shown.

              What isn’t Stalin’s military cadres?! Who then?! Vanka company companies?! So those unknown heroic Vanka took a dash with such leading cadres. That the people's commissar and the chiefs of the general staff (Shaposhnikov, Meretskov, Zhukov) did not know that the Wehrmacht was 100% mobilized May 1940?! That Germany, having spent 2 companies in 2 years, didn’t declare war on anyone, but immediately switched to large-scale military operations by powerful strike groups in narrow sections of the invasion in order to encircle the enemy’s troops?! And what will they do differently against the USSR ?! And what Zhukov will write about it in his memoirs, that he and the highest general of the USSR are guilty of the tragedy of 1941?! What against the strike groups of the Wehrmacht, we had 3-4 unmobilized divisions with a 35-45 km covering line per division and a PTO density of 1- 2 guns per 1 km?! What, thanks to the efforts of the NCO and the General Staff, we allowed the enemy 6–12 times superiority in forces and means in the direction of the main attacks?! And much more that they did not want to remember.
            2. WINovikov
              WINovikov 5 December 2015 18: 10 New
              +5
              Read the memoirs of G.K.Zhukov ...
              А кто из "воспоминальщиков" скажет что он в чём-то виноват? В мемуарах все военачальники такие умные, а один неумный - И. В. Сталин.
              1. bober1982
                bober1982 5 December 2015 20: 02 New
                0
                Marshal Zhukov always respected I.V. Stalin, including as the Supreme Commander-in-Chief. Zhukov himself never looked for smart, stupid and guilty.
                1. Secta haki
                  Secta haki 6 December 2015 05: 39 New
                  -4
                  Zhukov was a butcher, and just see how he behaved in the Victory Parade
                  1. lelikas
                    lelikas 6 December 2015 17: 45 New
                    +5
                    Quote: SectaHaki
                    Zhukov was a butcher, and just see how he behaved in the Victory Parade

                    Well, yes, just like that, in an apron with an ax and drove out .... Thick.
                    1. Secta haki
                      Secta haki 7 December 2015 03: 26 New
                      -2
                      It's a pity you weren't around bully . He rode out in bursting trousers, so he would not have prevented an apron ... He behaved badly on the podium.
          2. Colonel
            Colonel 5 December 2015 17: 53 New
            +4
            Quote: Predator
            we would not have won this war in 4 years.

            And you did not win this war. She won the people under the guidance of just those
            Quote: Predator
            marshals and generals who stupidly substituted their troops

            It is easy from the next century, having a Wikipedia and a cutter tryndet about mediocrity. How many fights have you won, our gifted? World of tanks not to offer.
            1. Predator
              Predator 5 December 2015 19: 19 New
              +2
              You kindly confuse something. We are generalizing the USSR. And reproaching me for being a priori in that war could not be stupid. I didn’t lose a fight in my place, I lost my boys and was wounded twice, but I didn’t command the NPO and the General Staff. I fought like a simple Vanka company and I have nothing to be ashamed of.
              And I’ll answer you - well, who, apart from Zhukov from the top leadership of the Red Army, remained in place by 1943?! Silence? Well, rightly, since there weren’t any left.
              But you’re so smart, tell the people who is to blame ?! There’s no need for nonsense about surprise and unpreparedness. Each unpreparedness has a rank and a surname.
              1. Colonel
                Colonel 6 December 2015 12: 43 New
                0
                Quote: Predator
                I fought like a simple Vanka company and I’m not ashamed of anything

                А вот теперь представьте, что лет через ...дцать некие "Эксперты" будут в ваших действиях выискивать косяки и на них делать себе "Экспертное" имя. И не важно будет, что косяков не было. Насчет "молчите?" - Тимошенко до конца войны был представителем Ставки ГКО и далеко не в тылу. Ну и далее...
                Quote: Predator
                And you're so smart, tell the people who is to blame?

                Не то, что бы очень умный, но не д у р а к. И хватает ума огульно не назначать виновных, как это делаете вы.От души рекомендую К. Симонов "Глазами человека моего поколения" и В. Карпова "Генералиссимус". Не утверждаю, что это истинна в последней инстанции, но.... Прочтите.
        4. The comment was deleted.
      2. Nevsky_ZU
        Nevsky_ZU 5 December 2015 08: 45 New
        13
        It's a shame that the film premiere was postponed from November to the end of January. recourse

        1. avt
          avt 5 December 2015 10: 55 New
          +7
          Quote: Nevsky_ZU
          It's a shame that the film premiere was postponed from November to the end of January.

          request So I waited on November 16th ..... request From the passages - it turns out a lot! good По круче ,,Днепровского рубежа" ,а может и ,,Брестскую крепость" обойдет . Очень надеюсь что встанет на уровень советских - ,,Живые и Мертвые",,,Они сражались за Родину",,,Горячий снег".
      3. PENZA
        PENZA 5 December 2015 23: 08 New
        0
        I certainly admire the feat of soldiers
    2. AID.S
      AID.S 5 December 2015 08: 15 New
      +4
      What story did you learn at school? I suspect that you definitely did not finish the Soviet school.
      1. mirag2
        mirag2 5 December 2015 08: 19 New
        +1
        Immediate task strike Klin-Solnechnogorsk and in Istra
        - Solnechnogorsk from Moscow is about 55 km, Klin is about 80 km, Istra is also relatively far west of Solnechnogorsk.
        1. tolancop
          tolancop 5 December 2015 10: 15 New
          +3
          Is Istra far west of Solnechnogorsk? Look at the map !!!! IMHO 55th kilometer of Volokolamsk highway (specify laziness, but I don’t remember the exact number on the kilometer column on the contrary of the New Jerusalem Monastery).
          И направления РАЗНЫЕ, поскольку между Истрой и Солнечногорском есть такой "пустячок" как Истринское водохранилище.
          1. mirag2
            mirag2 5 December 2015 12: 11 New
            +2
            So I say, to the west. Between Istra and Solnechnogorsk, in addition to the reservoir, there is also a forest - I got lost there when I went for mushrooms, I went just in that direction — Dedovsk was like that. ((.
            And New Jerusalem is far from Kryukovo, but again I will not say that many kilometers — I just know that it takes a long time to go there.
            1. tolancop
              tolancop 5 December 2015 18: 46 New
              0
              ЕЩЕ раз предлагаю взглянуть на карту. Если находящаяся почти строго на юг от Солнечногорска Истра для Вас расположена западнее, то... Ваша фамилия "Сусанин". И в поход я с вами не пойду....
      2. Igor39
        Igor39 5 December 2015 08: 36 New
        -5
        In a Soviet school, but what?
        1. Nevsky_ZU
          Nevsky_ZU 5 December 2015 08: 42 New
          15
          Eternal glory to our fallen soldiers. soldier Only one thing is insulting that they put their heads, but that in 45 years their children and grandchildren will give up without a fight. Damn, so I want to look into the future to see how the Dnieper River will once again become Russian throughout its entire length. And now even Kharkov is hostile sad
        2. AID.S
          AID.S 5 December 2015 10: 50 New
          +1
          Did you manage to finish?
    3. Secta haki
      Secta haki 5 December 2015 08: 20 New
      -4
      Well, what's the answer to it? Really L.P. Beria? Maybe Pavlov?
    4. Penzuck
      Penzuck 5 December 2015 09: 12 New
      17
      Quote: Igor39
      so almost Stalin stopped the Germans,

      Quote: Igor39
      Who missed the Germans to Moscow?

      1. "Сталин" "сделал" так, что немцы прорвались только к Москве и Волге, а не к Уральским горам.
      2. No one is immune from mistakes, but without the industrialization of the first five-year plans, there is no need to talk about victory at all ... Our country simply wouldn’t exist ... We are behind 100 years!
      3. The experience of the Austro-Prussian war shows that Austrians armed with smoothbore guns lost in humans 3 times more soldiers than Prussians armed with rifles ...
      Таких примеров в истории масса, отставание на 1 поколение приводит к потерям 1 к 3-м. Помножьте это на полностью отмобилизованную армию, и наши просчеты... Но факт фактом потери по вооруженным солдатам у нас и "немцев" сопоставимы... Основной урон мирному населению от бесчеловечности фашистов, от военных преступлений... Но это уже "заслуга" "Коллективного Гитлера", а не "Коллективного Сталина"
      1. Igor39
        Igor39 5 December 2015 10: 29 New
        -5
        You can’t do without a little digression into history. The struggle of the West against Russia has deep roots, one can recall at least the events of the Patriotic War of 1812. Both wars began according to a rather similar scenario and almost on the same day - June 22 and 24. They began with an unprovoked invasion of superior aggressor forces, which included troops from various European countries. Moreover, in both cases, the leadership of the aggressor state declared its intention to strike England. And in 1812, and in

        1941, our troops were concentrated on the western borders. But here the similarity ends.

        The Russian military commanders of 1812 - primarily MB Barclay de Tolly, managed to withdraw troops from the western provinces almost to the walls of Moscow. Napoleon could not, as he usually did, impose a general battle on the border for us, could not surround the Russian army. Why? Yes, because the Russian commanders of that time knew the enemy, his habits, his methods of action - and accordingly could foresee the development of events.
        1. Stas57
          Stas57 5 December 2015 10: 59 New
          +1
          it is all beautifully written, but completely meaningless.

          словосочетание-" упреждение в развертывании" я так понял вам ни о чем не говорит, ну и ладно
        2. Pomeranian
          Pomeranian 5 December 2015 11: 51 New
          +3
          Игорь, вы хоть и маршал, но в стратегии ничего не понимаете. Вы пишите "1941-м наши войска были сконцентрированы у западных границ.", простите, если ожидается война с Германией, войска должны стоять в районе Новосибирска? Добавлю, что многие спекулянты от истории любят заниматься фаллометрией, сравнивая количество танков , километры самолётов и объёмы пушек, обсо не заморачиваясь на логистику, людской состав и тех, кто на самом деле выиграл войну - интендантов. Если б вы знали, например, из каких солдат состояли советские дивизии в Белостокском выступе, то подобных вещей про "развёртывании у границы" более никогда не писали.
          1. Igor39
            Igor39 5 December 2015 12: 19 New
            0
            And the strategy was to give the equipment to be torn to pieces and trophies and burden the logistics of Germans with millions of prisoners? or how?
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 5 December 2015 15: 38 New
              +4
              Скажите, вы выстоите в уличной драке против чемпиона мира по карате, если всю жизнь занимались шахматами? Армия состояла на 70% из призывников, бардак в снабжении, оставленный "невинными жертвами сталинских репрессий" и в организации был ужасающий. Я удивляюсь, как при этом немцы не вышли на 4 день к Смоленску и Харькову. А вы всё про технику.И что техника, не шибко она хорошая была. КВ штатный дизель не тянул, Т-34 - на харьковчанках на перископах стояли шлифованные стальные пластины вместо зеркалок. Технику по штату в начале войны предусматривалось изымать из народного хозяйства, а какое народное хозяйство в бывшей, к примеру, панской Польше? Это ж не компьютерная игра: кнопочку нажал и у тебя всего полно. А миллионы пленных объясняются элементарно. Чтобы призванный солдат воевал, ему обязательно нужен профессиональный командир. Армия без командиров - толпа вооружённых людей. Лейтенанта готовят 4 года. Скажите, как можно сжать время, чтобы обеспечить армию профессиональными командирами, армию, выросшую с 1938 года с 1,8 млн до 5 с хвостиком человек? Войны выигрывают интенданты.
              1. Secta haki
                Secta haki 6 December 2015 03: 56 New
                0
                Особенно если они подгаживают "своим", как больше всего было в Русско-японск.
          2. Secta haki
            Secta haki 6 December 2015 04: 52 New
            -3
            That's for sure ... they located the warehouses very well, so the Germans got everything, even almost all the SVT
            1. Pomeranian
              Pomeranian 6 December 2015 15: 00 New
              0
              О запасах и винтовках. " Попутно замечу, что здесь сказалась потеря запасов..., ранее находившихся в ведении западных приграничных округов. Однако это это количество было не таким уж и большим". Начальник ГАУ СССР, маршал артиллерии Яковлев. "Об артиллерии и немного о себе" - М.: Воениздат, 1981 глава третья, стр 84. Оставьте фантазии о катастрофическом оставлении расположенных в трёх метрах от границы складов.
              1. Secta haki
                Secta haki 7 December 2015 02: 03 New
                0
                Is it really so? Of the million or more produced by the Red Army SVT, about 100 thousand fell, the rest went to the Germans.
        3. Secta haki
          Secta haki 5 December 2015 17: 34 New
          +1
          Aviation was not then, which even in the interwar period began to play a decisive role. Although even intelligence in the WWII already zanchil a lot. And Napoleon in Russia did not have as many friends as Adik, from among the same pests, maniacs ...
        4. Morrrow
          Morrrow 6 December 2015 18: 40 New
          0
          in 12 they won thanks to Scythian tactics. By burning cities and villages before retreating.
          1. Secta haki
            Secta haki 7 December 2015 03: 01 New
            0
            Due to the fact that there are four holes from the bayonet and four forks from the forks, armored trains and mustard guns from the airplanes, rapid-firing artillery and Tukhachevsky machine guns were not yet invented. Also, the steppe inhabitants began to thin out their spearguns with their arrows back in Austria from 1805.
    5. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 5 December 2015 11: 05 New
      +3
      The Germans were just stronger. That’s the whole explanation.
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 6 December 2015 13: 09 New
        0
        Слабее в четыре раза... При таком раскладе, какие еще могут быть обьяснения кроме того что им помогали "некоторые"?
    6. go
      go 5 December 2015 20: 29 New
      0
      Quote: Igor39
      Of course, I admire the feat of soldiers, but the article was presented so that almost Stalin stopped the Germans, the speech, the resolution on the plan, this is certainly good, but the question arises: Who let the Germans go to Moscow?


      Согласен с товарищем. Армию Сталина в западных регионах СССР разгромили в 41ом, потом воевал народ и то что осталось в других частях страны, когда стало понятно, что Японцы в другую сторону пойдут. Под Москвой кстати сибирские части. Мне рассказывали старики из под Наро-Фоминска как там все поля были усеяны сибиряками...не говорю про московских курсантов, НКВД и д.т. который просто переехали. так что не всё так гладко было. То что Сталин сделал неплохо, это эвакуация промышленности, но возможно до этого бы и не дошло если бы с умом, а не "броня крепка и танки наши быстры..."

      Статья вообще иногда неадекватная. При чём тут "носители демократии"? Фашисты были носители национал-социалистической диктатуры, они этого и не скрывали. Это две противоположности. Всех "демократов" (коммунистов, сторонников Веймаровской республики) они в лагеря отправили. И что за "либеральные историки", где они "либеральные"? Разберитесь в определениях, а то глу пость пишете.
    7. ammunition
      ammunition 5 December 2015 22: 24 New
      +1
      Quote: Igor39
      Who missed the Germans to Moscow?


      sad
      According to the law of the spirit, the Germans (at the head of all Europe) .. were supposed to occupy Moscow on December 5 of the 1941.
      And no power on earth was able to prevent this. sad
      ---------------
      Since 10 years before that .. exactly 5 December 1931 year, was blown up
      The temple. built by vow. Cathedral of Christ the Savior and deliverer from the Napoleonic invasion.
      -----------
      Yes!! It was thanks to Stalin that the Germans were stopped. And they did not take Moscow.
      Because Stalin fulfilled the orders of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which Metropolitan Eli gave to Stalin.
      And then the Queen of Heaven begged the Lord to have mercy on Russia.
    8. The comment was deleted.
    9. The comment was deleted.
    10. Valiich
      Valiich 6 December 2015 21: 53 New
      +1
      You need to re-read the story! Stalin - Supreme Commander, later Generalissimo of the USSR! And the main thing is not a battle, and a battle - but, WAR, was eventually won! Yes, huge sacrifices! GLORY AND ETERNAL MEMORY OF THE Fallen !!! AND HEALTH TO VETERANS OF LONG YEARS OF LIFE !!! That's what you need to THINK about. And not worried about the Laurels!
  2. Andryukha G
    Andryukha G 5 December 2015 07: 27 New
    11
    Judging by the summer hats, the guys in the last photo planned for 2 weeks (as Adolf promised them) to calmly get to Moscow.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Aleksandr72
      Aleksandr72 5 December 2015 08: 17 New
      10
      In fact, it’s known from history that Hitler hoped to capture Moscow before the fall of the road, but the stubborn resistance of the Red Army near Kiev, where Hitler was forced to turn the 2nd Guderian tank group for the early defeat of the encircled group, led to the Germans they came to the finish line as they believed in Moscow, not in August-September 1941, but only in October. The stubborn resistance of the Red Army, the militia divisions in Tula, Volokolamsk and other directions finally put an end to Hitler’s plans to capture Moscow. Although the situation for the capital was really threatening. Honor and glory to the heroes who defended Moscow and the eternal memory of those who died for it.
      As for the fishcoat and summer coats, who is the doctor for the Germans? For some reason Goering was able to supply his Luftwaffe with warm clothes already by the first military winter in Russia, and the Wehrmacht command did not bother to transfer winter uniforms to the troops on time, and then it was not up to it.
      The article is interesting, but for me these figures are somewhat surprising:
      At the time of the Red Army counter-offensive, the Hitlerites had a preponderance of 1,7 million against the 1,1 million of Soviet units in tanks, 1170 against 774 in tanks, and 13,5 thousand against 7652 in tanks and mortars. The only power segment where the Soviet Union had the advantage was the air fleet: 1000 planes versus 615 from the Nazis.

      These figures comparing the forces and means of the warring parties flashed everywhere, from textbooks on the history of the USSR for senior classes of secondary schools, to multi-volume work The history of the Great Patriotic War, not to mention the military memoirs of Soviet commanders. But I am not at all sure of their reliability: the Germans could not have such a number of tanks after all the losses incurred, as irreparably failed (burned out, broken into the trash, etc.), and simply requiring major repairs due to damage received in battle or serious mechanical damage, as a result of which they could not take part in hostilities. And with such a ratio of manpower, given the high level of training and the rich combat experience of the Wehrmacht, it is unlikely that the Red Army counter-offensive near Moscow would be successful.
      I have the honor.
      1. regul10108
        regul10108 5 December 2015 08: 41 New
        +8
        And with such a ratio of manpower, given the high level of training and the rich combat experience of the Wehrmacht, it is unlikely that the Red Army counter-offensive near Moscow would be successful.
        This is precisely the general genius of Zhukov that he determined the moment when the Germans' offensive ability was exhausted, but they had not yet switched to defense! Having no equipped defense, without going over to the defensive organization of troops, the Germans could not restrain on the occupied lines, and the operational retreat that had begun turned into a strategic one. Zhukov called the battle near Moscow in his memoirs the most memorable of all the battles of the Second World War and because they were attacking contrary to all laws of tactics and strategy!
        1. tolancop
          tolancop 5 December 2015 10: 18 New
          -1
          Write about the military genius of Zhukov somewhere else (I do not detract from his merits, but in this case the praises are clearly not addressed). Does the surname Shaposhnikov not tell you anything?
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 5 December 2015 12: 42 New
            +3
            tolancop"Про полководческий гений Жукова напишите где-нибудь в другом месте (не умаляю его заслуг, но в данном случае дифирамбы явно не по адресу). Фамилия Шапошников Вам ни о чем не говорит?"
            It is not worth contrasting these figures. Zhukov was the commander of the Western Front; he carried out the plan and will of the General Staff. The General Staff carried out the will of the Supreme.
            "Цели и задачи нашего наступления носили позитивный характер, они имели ввиду разгром войск противника и развивались последовательно в соответствии с развитием обстановки. Контрнаступление проводилось значительно увеличенными силами по сравнению с предшествующей обороной, так как в нем ( помимо ранее действовавших в составе Западного фронта семи армий) приняли участие еще три новые армии их резерва Верховного Главнокомандования ( свыше 100 000 бойцов, 600 орудий, 100 танков) и другие войсковые соединения, изменившие соотношения сил в нашу пользу."
            Page 383. Shaposhnikov B.M. Battle for Moscow. View from the General Staff.- M .: Yauza, Eksmo, 2005.
            The merit of Stalin is that he held the reserves and did not let them spend in the defensive part of the battle for Moscow.
          2. tolancop
            tolancop 5 December 2015 23: 37 New
            +1
            Минусовщики!!! Полководцем высокого уровня Жуков показал себя ближе к середине войны, когда поднабрался опыта и ума у других. А в 1941 году о Жукове-полководце говорить не приходится. Как "толкач" и реализатор чужих замыслов (в т.ч. любой ценой) был неплох (такие ТОЖЕ НУЖНЫ и лучше "толкач", чем "мямля"!), но "полководец", да еще "гений" - это не о Георгии Константиновиче образца 1941 года.
        2. Secta haki
          Secta haki 6 December 2015 04: 33 New
          -2
          Не было там какой то особой тактики и стратегии, дейстовали больше по обстоятельствам. Наступательная способность немцев не выдохлась, и они продолжали атаковать (под Тулой и Серпуховым еще 9 декабря), ищя слабые места в обороне по всему фронту. Из-за этого встречный неохватывающий контрудар советских войск получился "смятый", в разнобой, а с началом их такого нанесения также медлить было нельзя из-за складывающегося то тут то там положений близких к критическим, поэтому некоторые из контрударов начинались во второй половине дня, накануне раннего наступления зимних сумерек, или даже были большие ночные бои.
        3. The comment was deleted.
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 6 December 2015 17: 04 New
        0
        for Alexander72:
        About the number of tanks the Germans had before the Red Army counterattack
        known quite accurately. The fact is that it was very worrying
        Halder - Chief of the German General Staff. After all, Hitler ordered him
        take Moscow with a decisive cast! So, Halder sent
        order in all armies and divisions of the Center to send him data on serviceable
        tanks. Summarized in a couple of days. And I got ... already 72 pieces belay .
        Halder plunged into a sad thought: it was necessary to report to the Fuhrer,
        that it’s impossible to take Moscow. And get a fly, if not worse am .
        But the Red Army delivered him from these thoughts - a counterattack began,
        and it was not up to the numbers.
      3. Scraptor
        Scraptor 7 December 2015 04: 52 New
        0
        for voyaka uh

        When studying the history of the Second World War, one cannot rely solely on German data.

        The Red Army near Moscow lost its tanks intended for counterattack in November, urgently plugging holes with them instead of infantry. Therefore, during the offensive was their drawback. During the counterattack, the Germans also retained a twofold advantage in their artillery, which caused heavy losses.
  3. Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 5 December 2015 07: 29 New
    22
    My grandfather was there; on December 6 he was wounded during the offensive.
  4. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 5 December 2015 07: 30 New
    10
    The victory over fascism was born in the battle of Moscow, and began to mature near Stalingrad.
    1. Secta haki
      Secta haki 5 December 2015 09: 11 New
      -5
      Not everything is so rosy ... The Germans were not thrown back but driven away, breakthroughs, and all the more, there weren’t any encirclements in 1941 near Moscow. They lost much more manpower from frostbite than they had combat losses, they retreated correctly. On the contrary, the Soviet junior and middle commanders usually took each position from the field, putting from a company to three companies of soldiers, the German platoon of the rear guard, firing at the advancing at the last moment, departed on two armored personnel carriers, usually not leaving even a few of their dead, stopped at the next defensive boundary, and all this was repeated. When the attackers took a German position and saw the enemy’s few casualties following the bloody tracks in the snow, this was demoralizing.
      Cavalry and Siberian skiers with the ability to quickly bypass maneuver through the forests actually saved Moscow.
      The defensive part of the battle before their approach was an even greater nightmare ...

      The counterattack was slow. In each direction of such a counterattack, usually one settlement was taken with heavy losses in the morning and another one following it in the evening.
      Поскольку немец сильно давил, оборонительная и наступательная часть сражения смешалась, разброс дат по переходу в наступление на разных участках сражения был почти в неделю, а где и в две (Север - Юг), потому что приходилось вводить в оборонительный бой соединения предазначенные для контрудара, поскольку резервы оборониительных группировок были исчерпаны, и эти соединения еле успевали с ходу вступать в него - счет при этом "затыкании дыр" в обороне шел даже не на часы, а на гораздо меньше.

      The preponderance in aviation was generally because, in addition to the front-line and redeployed from other sectors of aviation, Moscow’s air defense also participated, and the Germans, on the contrary, froze from frost. They tried to compensate for the lack of Soviet tanks with cavalry. From such a counterattack with almost tenfold large losses in the killed and wounded, then many flew from the buttonholes.
      1. rotmistr60
        rotmistr60 5 December 2015 11: 05 New
        +4
        The Germans were not thrown back but driven away

        А вам не кажется, что главная заслуга КА в том, что отстояли Москву и укрепили веру в то, что немцев бить можно и нужно. Вы очевидно из тех (судя по флагу) кто считает, что во 2-й мировой победитель Сша с Англией, а СССР, так погулять вышел. В свое время для западного и в т.ч. американского зрителя был создан документальный фильм "Неизвестная война". Советую посмотреть, там есть серия и про оборону Москвы.
      2. Nagaibak
        Nagaibak 5 December 2015 13: 31 New
        +2
        SectaHaki"Не все так радужно... Немцев не отбросили а отогнали, прорывов, и тем более каких либо окружений в 1941г под Москвой не было."
        Yes, they drove them to 100-250 km.))) Such a good drive away from someone in my head.))) The Germans were defeated near Moscow! Whether you like it or not. They liberated a large territory among which two regional centers. Is it a lot or a little after the lost border battles, the Minsk, Kiev, Smolensk battles? Then they arrived without tanks in essence and large-caliber artillery. What are you smarting about here?)))) The only large mobile units were cavalry corps. They approached what was and what they could. From this point of view, they advanced admirably and at a good pace. Mostly walking in deep snow. Walk in five from Moscow to the nearest village in winter, I will look at you.)))
        Остальной бред комментировать не буду. По поводу малых немецких потерь в боях и прочую чушь. У меня у бывшей супруги дед воевал в то время, ротой командовал. За бои под Москвой получил орден Боевого Красного Знамени. За то, что " В боях за деревню Жагреево 31.12.1941 г тов"Г....в" атаковал со своим подразделением численно превосходящего противника. Первым ворвался в деревню уничтожив более 30 немецких фашистов. (имеется ввиду его ротой.) В боях за деревню Городище 1.01.1942 отсек дорогу отступающему противнику уничтожив из пулемета более 50 фашистов.(имеется ввиду его подразделение) 4.01. 1942 в боях за деревню Сытьково подразделение тов. Г...ва первым ворвалось в деревню. Тов. Г...в лично заколол 3 фашистов. Всего подразделение Г...ва в этом бою уничтожило более 50-ти немецких солдат и офицеров, взят пленный. В боях за деревню Рогово 2 и 3. 02.1942 г. тов Г....в несколько раз водил роту в атаку на врага, уничтожив три пулемета с прислугой противника.Сам шел впереди и лично заколол двух фашистов. Будучи тяжело ранен тов. Г....в не оставил поля боя а продолжал подавать команду-вперед за Родину! Тов Г....в достоин представления к правительственной награде- орденом Красного Знамени."
        These are excerpts from the presentation for the award. I do not indicate my surname for ethical reasons. I did not ask permission from the ex-wife.)))
        I'm not saying that there were no attacks on the forehead, etc. Everything was. But there were rounds, there were successful offensives in which Govorov and Chernyakhovsky and Rokossovsky distinguished themselves. Yes, and Vlasov also distinguished himself then.)))
        SectaHaki"Кавалерия и сибирские лыжники имеющие возможность быстрого обходного маневра по лесам на самом деле спасли Москву.
        Оборонительная часть сражения до их подхода это был еще больший кошмар."
        Reserves of the Supreme High Command rescued Moscow in time put into battle. When the Germans exhausted their during the offensive. That's all. Our forces did not have superiority, and the mastery of our command was manifested in this.
        1. Secta haki
          Secta haki 5 December 2015 16: 52 New
          -6
          Это тебе не нравится, что всего-лишь отогнали. У кого то полный нагайбак в голове с подсчетами от 3 до 50ти, а кто то со своими киношками дослужился тут всего-лишь до "ротмистра", и минусы на сайте опять очень характерны. Бред сам не пиши на базе всего нескольких погромных случаев. Ты видно про систематические уничтожающе-сдерживающие действия немцами целых рот и полков РККА силами всего одного-двух мотопехотных взводов катавшихся по снегу на БТР выше не читал. Как прочитаешь и осознаешь возможно дорастешь чтобы это прокомментировать... Воевать нормально стали учиться только году в 1943, но своих БТР советская пехота так и не увидела, из-за чего ее выбивало минометными осколками.
          The battle of Moscow is not so famous in comparison with Stalingrad where the Romanians and Italians, moreover, without armored personnel carriers and even on an open flat area with only beams, were unable to restrain the counterattacks for the Germans as a result of a simultaneous attack on the flanks and not at odds their protrusions near Moscow, in non-flying weather for their superior aviation, the first boiler happened in the year and a half of the war. The worst thing for the Red Army on the battlefield was not even there, but near Kursk and the Dnieper.
          Резервы главного командования под Москвой были уже исчерпаны, проводилась срочная переброска войск из Сибири, которые еле успели. Конница пошла почти вся на колбасу. Под Сталинградом как только погода стала улучшаться целые корпуса не жалели жертвовать для уничтожения немецкой техники по аэродромам. До этого много раз "отчудили" на Миусс-фронте, как до выхода немцев к Волге так и после.
          The first normal was Rokossovsky, as well as the best of the Soviet military leaders.
          1. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 5 December 2015 18: 26 New
            +4
            =SectaHaki"Это тебе не нравится, что всего-лишь отогнали. У кого то полный нагайбак в голове с подсчетами от 3 до 50ти, а кто то со своими киношками дослужился тут всего-лишь до "ротмистра", и минусы на сайте опять очень характерны."
            And what did they bite?))) I immediately began to poke.)))
            In fact, from 3 to 50 it is from the award document, by the way, it was published in the internet by the way. It was written by the commander by hand. Yes, you do not understand along the way. You're a stratech.))) As it is written, I quoted. Grandfather 5 Germans personally stabbed. And who are you in comparison with him, what would cast doubt on it?))) You are no one and they call you nothing.)))
            SectaHaki"Ты видно про систематические уничтожающе-сдерживающие действия немцами целых рот и полков РККА силами всего одного-двух мотопехотных взводов катавшихся по снегу на БТР выше не читал."
            Avon is like that))))) systematically destructive-deterrent actions.))))) Well, you’re coming!)))) Stop smoking a connoisseur!))) Or are you at least Manstein’s level and we don’t understand you?))) ) Or are you like Tukhachevsky with his decavilions?)))
            The battle for Moscow is largely improvisation with the forces and means that were at the disposal of the command. And improvisation was a success, therefore, Zhukov singled out this battle from others. They fought on the very edge and stood. If you do not understand what you can talk about at all. You just sparkle with your continuous alternative giftedness.))) And you don’t need to puff out your cheeks.))) Especially if you don’t kick a tooth on the topic.))))
            1. rotmistr60
              rotmistr60 6 December 2015 03: 24 New
              +1
              For Nagaibak
              I support, you gave him a good shit. He became very nervous and began to be rude.
              1. Secta haki
                Secta haki 6 December 2015 06: 18 New
                -1
                Do not make him a captain too ... lol
            2. Secta haki
              Secta haki 6 December 2015 06: 15 New
              -2
              А ты большего не стоишь... У тебя ")" заклинивает?
              Moscow defended. In Stalingrad or on the Kursk Bulge - they won.
              Класть от роты на каждой высоте для того чтобы потом увидеть несколько кровавых отпечатков на снегу или пару тел и уходящие вдаль траки - не очень удачная для солдат импровизация. Некоторых "командиров" за такое даже расстреливали...
              1. rotmistr60
                rotmistr60 6 December 2015 08: 34 New
                +1
                Here it is sick. Sometimes nickname says a lot.
                1. Secta haki
                  Secta haki 6 December 2015 11: 05 New
                  -4
                  And what is he talking to you about? You are sick here ... like most of those shot.
                2. Nagaibak
                  Nagaibak 6 December 2015 13: 21 New
                  +1
                  rotmistr60"Вот это понесло болезного. Иногда ник о многом говорит."
                  Periodically troll-like creatures appear here.))) They have one song ... 1. Zhukov is a butcher. 2. Heaped up with corpses. 3. One rifle for five. This character has a song about armored personnel carriers))))
                  1. Secta haki
                    Secta haki 7 December 2015 01: 49 New
                    -1
                    This rifle also had a very uncomfortable fuse, especially for winter conditions ... Like one huge sunroof on the roof of the tower of the first T-34s, which the wounded tanker could not open from the inside (therefore they were burning in tanks), the checker did not have a guard and she could not be stabbed, so the poles in 1920 shook the Budennovites to the delight of Lord Curzon, and the Germans in the Second World War did not suffer losses in attacks or retreats from mortar fire while sitting behind armored personnel carriers. Meanwhile, these weapons killed more than anything else taken together in WWII (guns, tanks, planes, machine guns, self-propelled guns, MLRS), and due to the unarmored infantry and other things, these were mainly SOVIET LOSSES ...
                    В авиации и на флоте, особенно подводном, тоже очень "научно" подгадили.

                    Character, answer, why are armored personnel carriers or infantry fighting vehicles needed? The German armored personnel carrier was actually an infantry fighting vehicle, both in terms of booking and running gear, as well as for use on the battlefield and on the front / draw.
                    1. Nagaibak
                      Nagaibak 7 December 2015 17: 59 New
                      +2
                      SectaHaki"Еще у этой винтовки был очень неудобный предохранитель, особенно для зимних условий."
                      And how does the Mosin rifle fuse affect its combat qualities? He jerked the shutter, aimed, fired.))) In fig, is he even needed there?)))
                      Из вики))))"Винтовки обр. 1891 и 1891/30 года являлись высокоточным оружием, позволяющим уверенно поражать одиночную цель на дистанции до 400 м, снайпером с использованием оптики — до 800 м; групповую — на дистанции до 800 м".
                      The question to the expert is how an inconvenient fuse affects the accuracy and other properties of the rifle. Before writing TTX, read something.))) She had flaws, but the fuse is not the biggest jamb.))))
                      About the T-34 hatch, I am generally silent, write more about leaky spoons as in the movie with Mikhalkov.)))
                      About checkers without a guard.))) Have you ever held a checker in your hands at least once?))) It seems to me that there isn’t, judging by your writings.
                      Especially for those who are in armored personnel carriers, which are actually already BMPs, but in fact, tanks.)))
                      Do not stab with a checker. The cavalrymen stabbed. A SHASHOK CUT AND HER GUARD DOESN'T NEED IT.))) Under the tsar, the priest was on a dragoon saber guard ... but she was also chopped. Cavalrymen in those days did not fencing, AND CUT! PONIME?)))) And who shredded whom is a big question. The Poles are also well inserted. You go Pole?))))
                      SectaHaki"а немцы в ВОВ не несли потерь в атаках или отступлениях от минометного огня сидя за броней БТР. Между тем это оружие убило в ВМВ больше чем все остальное вместе взятое (пушки, танки, самолеты, пулеметы, самоходки, РСЗО), и из-за незабронированости пехоты и прочего, это были в основном СОВЕТСКИЕ ПОТЕРИ."
                      You don’t write such nonsense anymore, otherwise the people will keep you for the silly one. This advice is free.))))
                      Your armored personnel carriers had 15 mm armor and were scary for a company of skiers driven into a corner who did not have PTR and grenades or Molotov cocktails. Your APCs confidently missed PTRD and PTRSami as actually all German tanks during the battle of Moscow 1941-42. What are you talking about?))) They saved them from mortars?))) Well, if a mine detonated 200 meters from your armored personnel carrier it can save it from fragments.))) And if several armored personnel carriers are covered by a battery of 120 mm mortars, who will be saved ?))) In Shakhtersk in 2014, mortar destroyers destroyed a column of APU armored vehicles (about 40 pieces) and stopped the breakthrough. Armor did not help light armored vehicles.))) APCs should deliver soldiers to the battlefield, escort them in attack, and support them with fire. But it is necessary to hide from mortar fire in the LOCKS.))) And where did you get that this weapon killed the most soldiers, and even Soviet ones?))) Where did you read such nonsense?)))) So, let’s pull your character up knowledge))))
                      1. Condor-a
                        Condor-a 8 December 2015 11: 04 New
                        -2
                        А зачем вообще предохранители нужны? С него было зимой трудно снять, и ни зимой ни летом не было сразу видно на предохранителе мосинка стоит или нет, поэтому когда боец ее вскидывал часто был сюрпрайз с "осечкой". Немец на своем карабине видел сразу, потому что предохранитель на нем был большой и откинутый вверх перекрывал прицел, и движением одного пальца или раскрытой ладони легко снимался даже в мороз, не снимая предварительно варежки с руки, чтобы "ущепнуть" его двумя-тремя пальцами как на мосинке.
                        Keep silent about one big hatch - two small hatch on the T-34 tower do not appear immediately. Prior to this, the wounded were not able to throw one big even together in this tank burned.
                        Judging by your writings about the guards of checkers and a rifle, you didn’t hold anything else but wikipedia in your hands.
                        Saber - they give injections and not only chop, which gives a great advantage, especially in equestrian conditions. It cannot be stabbed with a saber. The Poles had sabers. Sabers were with guards. Therefore, in 1,5 seconds, the one with the checker remains against the Pole without fingers.
                        For the installation of the guards of the Cossacks (so that the dragoons could cope with them) and then in the Red Army, they were punished.
                        Therefore, Poles were inserted, with a ratio of forces and losses of more than 10 to 1.
                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Komarów
                        and even the white Rolls-Royce of Budyon Semyon then stand in the Polish Museum.
                        Are you Russian? Do not write your own anymore.
                        BMP-1,2s that drove around the battlefield with infantry inside had even less armor than the German armored personnel carrier. Against them only RPG-7 can,
                        What was armored vehicles in 2014 (mb tanks?) And did it have rational angles of inclination?
                        Эти мины попадали прямо в открытую крышу? Тебе знакомо такое словосочетание как "противоосколочная броня"?
                        Let's quote further your charter on the account of a modern wheeled armored personnel carrier and at the same time compare its reservation and running gear with German, which is better than that of BMP. The only thing that was wrong with him was that he did not know how to swim, but he couldn’t tear himself forward from the tanks.

                        How many mortars do you think were killed? My knowledge, a misunderstanding, will not help. Just google about it.
                        Mina falls steeply, so more than 90% of all its fragments fly parallel to the ground. An artillery projectile has about 5%.
                        In a dismounted infantry only that flies parallel to the ground. Each mine is much less humane than an artillery shell, and mortars are more massive and have a higher rate of fire than field guns.
                        Минометные осколочные ранения гораздо тяжелей лечатся. В ВОВ был первый вопрос "осколок" или нет, и две очереди, Осколочных пациентов с их рваными ранами после беглого осмотра обычно просто клали на траву, и занимались пулевыми ранениями.

                        a flag in your hands and a drum around your neck ...
                      2. Nagaibak
                        Nagaibak 8 December 2015 21: 04 New
                        +2
                        =Condor-A" не снимая предварительно варежки с руки, чтобы "ущепнуть" его двумя-тремя пальцами как на мосинке."
                        What a restless tszheksky troll I got.)))) Even under a different nickname I got out.)))
                        Hmm ... why are you there at home in Poland Pinching)))) you don’t understand.))) But we fought with these rifles from the end of the 19th century through the 50s of the 20th century. And nothing is normal. The rifle was excellent. You didn’t have such Poles. And you yourself saw what a German saw on his carbine?)))) Poet songwriter.)))
                        Condor-A"Про один большой люк лучше молчи - два маленьких люка на башне Т-34 появидись не сразу. До этого раненые не в силах откинуть один большой даже вдвоем в этом танке горели."
                        Maybe you have a list of burned ones? Again, as no unconfirmed blah blah blah.)))
                        About the guard and the saber. Since you are in this business a layman again. A cavalry skirmish does not imply fencing and injections. They pricked with peaks, chopped with checkers. There is nothing here to spread your Polish speculation about fingers chopped off in 1,5 seconds. That way we would have gone half a country without fingers.)))) Kindergarten, by golly, but I see in your enthusiasm .... snotty kindergarten.))))
                        Condor-A"Поэтому вставили поляки, с соотношением сил и потерь больше чем 10 к 1."
                        Да ладно врать то))) вставили они хе-хе-хе. После этого боя "убегающие" красные захватили 2000 поляков в плен и вывели из окружения свою артиллерию.))) Правильно Буденный машину бросил (если это правда, а то вам верить себя не уважать.) А до этого 1 Конная армия шла от Киева до Львова с боями и умудрялась наступать на Замостье когда уже Тухачевский был разбит. 1-я Конная армия участвовала в Киевской, Ровенской и Львовской операциях РККА. Первые две операции были удачными для РККА. А теперь про любимый польский миф о сражении при Комарове.))) Из вики.))) Специально для тебя.)))
                        "Существует легенда, что в конце августа под Комаровом произошло самое крупное после 1813 года кавалерийское сражение, в котором 1-я польская дивизия Руммеля, численностью в 2000 сабель, разгромила Конную армию численностью 7000 сабель (а по другим утверждениям и 16 тыс.). Реальность, разумеется, была гораздо прозаичнее. Во-первых, численность Конной армии в 16 тыс. штыков и сабель — это её численность к началу кампании; но после украинского похода и тяжелых львовских боёв её численность сократилась более чем вдвое. Во-вторых, когда Первую конную бросили в рейд на Замостье, с целью облегчить положение армий Запфронта, там она столкнулась отнюдь не с одной польской дивизией. По данным советской разведки, к моменту рейда в районе Замостья поляки успели произвести перегруппировку и кроме частей 3-й польской армии там были обнаружены 10-я и 13-я пехотные, 1-я кавалерийская, 2-я Украинская и казачья дивизии. Пишущие про одну-единственную дивизию Руммеля, разгромившую Конармию в одиночку, как правило, не упоминают, что эта дивизия прибыла для подкрепления уже оперировавших в том районе соединений 3-й польской армии. При этом сами подкрепления не ограничивались одной лишь этой дивизией. Бой под Комаровом был лишь одним из эпизодов, в котором со стороны Конармии принимала участие лишь одна из четырёх кавалерийских дивизий, 6-я. То есть, численность столкнувшихся под Комаровом красных и польских частей была сопоставима, а масштаб боев никак не тянул на самое большое кавалерийское сражение (в советской историографии самым крупным кавалерийским сражением Гражданской войны считается встречное сражение у Среднего Егорлыка 25-27 февраля 1920 — до 25 тыс. сабель с обеих сторон). Неудача рейда на Замостье была более чем объяснима — Конармия начала этот рейд будучи измотанной в боях за Львов, оставив базы снабжения на правом берегу Западного Буга и будучи вынужденной преодолевать «на протяжении всего пятидневного рейда разбушевавшуюся стихию, которая весь этот лесисто-болотистый район непрерывными дождями превратила в труднопроходимые участки местности, сильно усложнявшие вопрос с маневрированием»[37]"
                      3. Condor-a
                        Condor-a 9 December 2015 01: 21 New
                        0
                        Clinic ... A fuse not taken in time in battle means a lot.
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        Maybe you have a list of burned ones? Again, as no unconfirmed blah blah blah.)))

                        когда-нибудь попляшут и по твоим "монгольским" костям, герой комиксов.

                        They fenced so that in Russian they did not write anything about the Battle of Komarov in 1920 in the USSR, they didn’t say 90 years, and now they don’t write (your nonsense is where the Budennovites didn’t ... they ate potatoes from the mud, but they found and took some 2000 prisoners - not count). Then on the contrary, Bronstein did not take prisoners of war hundreds of thousands back until they died from epidemics.
                        Вот была до то-ли "стычки" то-ли "рейда 1-я КонАрмия, а потом про ее боевой путь уже ничего не пишут... Иди лучше своего Бабеля читай, "он ваше все". laughing
                        The Russians were usually finished there, only left without fingers, allowed to leave the battlefield and stumble to the medical unit, after which they almost always were captured ...
                        The Poles about her do not ring at all angles because there is little valor in defeating even an enemy so superior in numbers but armed with such weaker weapons.
                        Давай покрути еще своим "маневрированием", война это ведь не главное...
                      4. Condor-a
                        Condor-a 9 December 2015 10: 09 New
                        0
                        Quote: Nagaibak
                        is there a list of burned ones? Again, as no unconfirmed blah blah blah.)))

                        Если набрать в гугле "один большой башенный люк Т-34" то есть много фотографий, включая как из под такого люка несгоревшим раненым советским танкистам улыбаясь (не всегда) помогали выбираться солдаты противника. Ничего кроме как еще более укрепить их в превосходстве своей расы над славянской после участия в открытии и поднятии такого продвинутого люка, быть не могло.
                        It could be opened with one hand only with a jerk jerkily standing on the tower from the outside, which was specially trained by your friend and easily demonstrated in tests, and by other proud dacians (perhaps like they never even sat in the tank), they were accepted into service.
                        Прочитать об этом можно в разделе "Прочая матчасть" даже тут http://lurkmore.to/Т-34
                        look at the photo - right here
                        Why is it that far to go
                        http://topwar.ru/41028-oktyabr-1941-g-zahvat-v-plen-sovetskogo-tankista.html
                        "Октябрь 1941 г. Захват в плен советского танкиста".
                        в комментах никтое не понял, правда один удален, так что возможно кто и понял что это был больше не зават в плен а "вызволение" из башни.

                        Since the site for such articles is of course banned Googl'e Rospotrebnadzor, quote


                        "Прочая матчасть" http://lurkmore.to/Т-34

                        Tower. On the early versions of the tower with the appetizing nickname "Pie", the hatch was exactly one, but in half roof size and weight, too, corresponding. Theoretically, it was easier to pull out any wounded there, to dismantle small spare parts such as gas tanks for repairs, and even behind it one could hide from enemy bullets. In practice, it turned out that getting out of the burning Hell to a wounded tower was almost impossible. Since 1942, a new tower appeared - "Nut". It differed by 8 mm thick armor, cheerful 53 mm “cheeks” around the gun’s mask, which, coupled with the “overlap” of them on top of the main armor plate, often surprised German tankers with the sudden 105 mm of the tower’s forehead when they hit these cheeks, with a personal hatch for everyone, and a little later, the commander was also given a personal turret, so that at least he could see what was happening outside without risking lead poisoning. However, it was of little use, since before the appearance of the T-34-85, the commander combined the duties of a gunner, and mainly engaged in firing from a cannon below, rather than looking at the surroundings. Sausages, however, put the comfort of their tankers at the forefront, and each had a separate hole for evacuation ...
          2. Nagaibak
            Nagaibak 6 December 2015 13: 16 New
            0
            SectaHaki"Класть от роты на каждой высоте для того чтобы потом увидеть несколько кровавых отпечатков на снегу или пару тел и уходящие вдаль траки - не очень удачная для солдат импровизация. Некоторых "командиров" за такое даже расстреливали..."
            Straight poet damn it ... hehe hehe ... Storyteller))))
            1. Secta haki
              Secta haki 7 December 2015 01: 58 New
              -1
              Are you funny They began to shoot without any ... When from 250-300 people 3-5 times in a row there were less than a dozen, and such commanders wanted more such attacks, questions began to appear at first from the soldiers, and then after analyzing their actions and from the special forces ...
              1. Nagaibak
                Nagaibak 7 December 2015 18: 05 New
                0
                SectaHaki"Тебе смешно? Стали расстреливать безо всяких... Когда от 250-300 чел 3-5 раз подряд оставалось меньше дюжины, и таким командирам хотелось еще таких атак, стали появляться вопросы сначала у солдат, а потом после разбора их действий и у особистов."
                Hey, poet, character, you justify every case of such attacks with evidence. Got it?))) And there we’ll sort it out, otherwise a lot of you will fill up the gorlopans with corpses, and so on.
                1. Condor-a
                  Condor-a 8 December 2015 11: 03 New
                  -2
                  "Слышь" и "Понял" это ты со своими собутыльниками отряхивайся так.
                  These attacks in the Battle of Moscow (and generally in the Second World War) were not cases but the rule. Especially taking into account the lack of tanks there, because there was nothing to plant the German armored personnel carrier, which was leaving even without smoke, after the Soviet infantryman, who had just climbed to a height.
                  1. Nagaibak
                    Nagaibak 8 December 2015 21: 07 New
                    +2
                    Condor-A"Ты разве русский? Больше не пиши свою."
                    I’m Russian, unlike you.))) And I have the nickname Nagaybak for the fact that I respect them. And how not to respect them, because in 1830 they crushed psheks during the uprising in Poland.))) They participated in the battle of Ostroleka. And one of their villages since that time has the name Ostrolenskaya, Nagaybaksky district, Chelyabinsk region. So that.)))
                    Про немецкие бтры ты просто гонишь.)))) Даже обсуждать твой бред неохота. Про бой за Шахтерск погугли найдешь инфа о 24 награжденных ополченцев медалями" За боевые заслуги". За уничтожение колонны украинской бронетехники. Так, что поэт давай спускайся на грешную земли и прекращай жить польскими мифами. За сим раскланиваюсь. Не кашляй. Более отвечать не буду, ты не интересный собеседник. Смени методички что ли.))) Хе-хе-хе... а чего ты про барабан написал?))) Любишь барабанить?))) Ну, давай только у себя в Пшекландии долбись.)))
                    =Condor-A"Слышь" и "Понял" это ты со своими собутыльниками отряхивайся так."
                    And you are not worthy of another.))))
                  2. Condor-a
                    Condor-a 9 December 2015 01: 22 New
                    0
                    No, you are not Russian once called the name of a stranger.

                    Write a pioneer about German armored personnel carriers, instead of merging so stupidly ... Why do you need anti-focal armor, and not just bulletproof.
                    Standing next to your drinking companions is certainly not worthy.
    2. Stas57
      Stas57 6 December 2015 11: 06 New
      +2
      about the armored personnel carrier it is you heaped with wondrous hell ...
      1. Secta haki
        Secta haki 6 December 2015 11: 22 New
        -1
        One more ... Why are they needed at all?
  • tanit
    tanit 5 December 2015 07: 38 New
    -5
    Battle - turned back the whole war (not a master to insert clips, and not a special fan of Alexei Matov.)
    And where are the Newcomers? Tell us all that this was the Battle of Kulikovo.
  • aszzz888
    aszzz888 5 December 2015 07: 40 New
    +6
    This says a lot and the fact that Russia cannot be defeated, nor to anyone, nor when!

    Ahead of irrigation machines, under guard, under the hateful looks of thousands of Muscovites,

    I would very much like this to happen again, only the characters are different: powders, eggs, Turchinovs and other undeveloped trash!
    1. MISHEL
      MISHEL 5 December 2015 08: 25 New
      +4
      None and Never !!! RUSSIA WILL NOT WIN !!!
    2. tanit
      tanit 5 December 2015 18: 31 New
      0
      Someone had a chance - a watering machine behind a column of captive dill ....
  • Thunderbolt
    Thunderbolt 5 December 2015 07: 45 New
    11
    After the Battle of Moscow, the Wehrmacht could carry out a serious offensive in only one strategic direction, and this already became a guarantee of Victory. Served in Naro-Fominsk. Physically, I felt the traces of a formidable battle from the inside. Once we saw a position in the forest. It was overgrown, but as if the smell of gunpowder becomes clearer over the years. Vereya, Medyn ... moving to these directions in a caterpillar column, I honestly had tears dripping from my eyes and not from me alone. That's ...
  • midshipman
    midshipman 5 December 2015 08: 00 New
    12
    In our school there was a captain of the 3rd rank Arkhangelsk, he is a participant in these battles. He often told us cadets about the battle of Moscow. And their crew from the destroyer near Moscow came from the Pacific Fleet. The sailors went on the attack in black overcoats, did not have time to change clothes. And they won. Bright memory to you our fathers.
    Под Ленинградом в это же время началась операция освобождения Тихвина. Руководство "ВО", опубликуйте такую же статью про это сражение. Я написал повесть когда-то про это сражение "Скитание и возвращение Тихвинской иконы "Божий матери". Но это только эпизод того сражения. Честь имею.
  • tanit
    tanit 5 December 2015 08: 14 New
    0

    So, ladies and gentlemen of the Chronol ... And put this battle away?
    About idiots, it broke and boiled up (there was a reason) ....
  • Darkness
    Darkness 5 December 2015 08: 14 New
    +3
    Glory to our ancestors!
  • Koshak
    Koshak 5 December 2015 08: 26 New
    +3
    March of the defenders of Moscow
    Music: B. Mokrousov Lyrics: A. Surkov

    Attack with steel rows
    We are going firmly.
    Hometown is ours
    Our frontier is appointed Leader.

    Chorus:

    We will not flinch in the battle for our capital,
    We are native Moscow road.
    Indestructible wall, steel defense
    Smash, destroy the enemy!

    On the march platoons are equal
    The ground is buzzing underfoot
    Our native plants are behind us.
    And the red stars of the Kremlin.

    Chorus.

    For happiness do it yourself
    We built the city native.
    For every chopped stone
    We will pay back at a terrible price.

    Chorus.

    Do not crush heroic power,
    Mighty is our resistance to fire.
    And our enemy will find the grave
    In the foggy battles near Moscow.

    Chorus:

    We will not flinch in the battle for our capital,
    We are native Moscow road.
    Indestructible wall, steel defense
    Smash, destroy the enemy!
  • Koshak
    Koshak 5 December 2015 08: 28 New
    +4
    Author of text (words):
    Surkov V.
    Composer (music):
    Listov K.
    "In the dugout"

    The fire beats in a cramped stove
    On the logs, tar, like a tear.
    And the harmony sings to me in the dugout
    About your smile and eyes.
    Bushes whispered to me about you
    In the snow-white fields near Moscow,
    I want you to hear
    How yearning my voice is alive.
    I want you to hear
    How yearning my voice is alive.

    You're far far away now
    Between us is snow and snow.
    It’s not easy for me to reach you
    And to death - four steps.
    Sing, harmonica, blizzard to spite
    Confused happiness call.
    I'm warm in the cold dugout
    From your unquenchable love.
    I'm warm in the cold dugout
    From your unquenchable love.

    The fire beats in a cramped stove
    On the logs, tar, like a tear.
    And the harmony sings to me in the dugout
    About your smile and eyes.
    Bushes whispered to me about you
    In the snow-white fields near Moscow,
    I want you to hear
    How yearning my voice is alive.
    I want you to hear
    How yearning my voice is alive.
    1. tanit
      tanit 5 December 2015 08: 34 New
      +2
      Healthy and forever ... soldier
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 5 December 2015 11: 17 New
      +4
      Первый тираж пластинок "В землянке" был уничтожен, как песня с паникерским настроем. А до приказа №227, который раскрывал истинное положение дел на фронте и в стране, было очень далеко. Кстати у Суркова было: "от МОЕЙ негасимой любви". Народ поправил.
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. serg2.72
      serg2.72 5 December 2015 20: 57 New
      0
      The poet Mikhail Matusovsky attributed more stanzas to his song:

      On the slopes of the stained Volga,
      On the banks of the Moscow River
      In their tanned fur coats
      You stood, Siberians.

      May your feat not be forgotten,
      How not forgotten will be those -
      At an unfamiliar village,
      At an unnamed height ...
  • PValery53
    PValery53 5 December 2015 08: 29 New
    +2
    До 5 декабря 1941г отступающие советские войска терпели молчаливые укоры остававшегося на оккупацию населения... И наконец сжимавшаяся пружина нашей обороны вышла из-под контроля немцев и начала перемалывать "непрошенных гостей". Народ воспрял: наконец-то!! Наконец-то "дали просраться" фашистским иродам!
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Al_oriso
    Al_oriso 5 December 2015 08: 33 New
    0
    Our salt is not in quantity, but in cunning, surprise, courage and self-confidence.
  • Sasha75
    Sasha75 5 December 2015 08: 50 New
    +7
    Once, a very long time ago, I argued at the Sovetsky school in a history lesson and got milking, although I always had five in a quarter. What was the debate about Peter the first, that he didn’t do everything, he didn’t plan, but the people, and now the people achieved everything, and Peter and I won the victories and the fleet, and who came up with, who stirred the boyars, who took the money to the goat, or Peter and received two. So now everything is argued in a new way by the people of course, but we also need a slap on top. And this is what I think I think that the current embezzlers of the years after 20 will be extolled as repressed and affected by the authorities. But what if you already swept the affairs of many of the repressed under Stalin, you read in many embezzlements the misuse of funds Tupolev Tymoshenko exceeding the official does not remind anything. But were economic articles not the main ones, and espionage is such a final nail so as not to get loose. As it would now be more convenient for the same Vasilyeva to roll out the state. treason and for life and who would be against it. You’ll think about it, but Stalin was probably wiser to punish so that the whole family is in suspicion, and we just now remember something about the wives of the children of the Var that they transferred something to them, they have something, even in this Stalin was the leading top manager))).
    1. Camel
      Camel 5 December 2015 10: 29 New
      12
      I didn’t set a minus, but: people !!! Well, write better !!! Well, it's impossible to read!
      Not a grammar-Nazi, but the meaning of the phrase is lost.
  • petr1965
    petr1965 5 December 2015 09: 03 New
    +9
    My grandfather went private throughout the war, Dad worked at the defense plant since he was 17 years old. Everyone did his thing in his place. He had no time to talk about who was to blame, that the Germans had reached Moscow, and it was unsafe to argue. Together they forged our Victory . We didn’t run away from the war, like the Ukrainians last year, didn’t host talk shows, which sometimes makes us sick of any topic to increase our ratings and earn more dough. Let's better deserve our ancestors who defended our homeland in difficult years, even since Battle of Kulikovo
  • tehnoluks
    tehnoluks 5 December 2015 09: 26 New
    +4
    At the time of the counterattack of the Red Army, the preponderance of the Nazis in ... tanks - 1170 against 774 ...

    In the battle of Moscow, the German army lost about ... no less 1250 tanks, 2,5 thousand guns, military vehicles.


    ?
    1. igordok
      igordok 5 December 2015 11: 07 New
      +2
      Maybe just statistics. But more than once repaired cars get to BTT losses. Each hit, and after repair, too, was considered a victory.
    2. Stas57
      Stas57 5 December 2015 11: 27 New
      0
      a common occurrence, counted applications and calculated the balance of machines
  • Was mammoth
    Was mammoth 5 December 2015 09: 59 New
    +7
    Quote: mirag2
    Yaranee lived near Moscow, in Kryukovo, 41 km from Moscow, the remains of the Unknown Soldier that lies on Red Square taken from there ....

    Two uncles, Panfilovites, are lying in a mass grave near Kryukovo. A funeral came for one uncle, and for the second quarter of a century was reported missing until his father at the memorial saw his name on a memorial plate. Here's a story in my family.
  • Fonmeg
    Fonmeg 5 December 2015 10: 17 New
    +5
    Eternal memory and Glory to our fathers and grandfathers, who saved the country from Nazi evil! Unfortunately, we, the descendants, could not preserve it, giving up to the merchants who put it on their knees. But we are not Russians, if we do not rise from our knees!
    1936 год, а как актуально на сегодняшний день. Так вот сегодняшнюю "гниль либералистическую", поставившую страну на колени перед западом, нужно гнобить по всем направлениям, в память тех кто не щадил жизни своей в схватке с лютым врагом - фашизмом!
    1. Pomeranian
      Pomeranian 5 December 2015 12: 23 New
      +2
      The truth told the true truth.
    2. tolancop
      tolancop 5 December 2015 18: 56 New
      0
      The picture is WONDERFUL !!!
      Her would be a splash site !!!
  • Stas57
    Stas57 5 December 2015 10: 30 New
    +1
    this momentous event actually predetermined the outcome of the war.
    1. Secta haki
      Secta haki 6 December 2015 04: 47 New
      -2
      It was only predetermined in the summer of 1943.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 5 December 2015 11: 32 New
    +3
    Если правильно помню - это ПЕРВОЕ серьёзное поражение гитлеровской армии во ВМВ. Они ещё не задумались о поражении - как под Сталинградом, но во всем мире как свежим ветром подуло. Да и в нашей прессе случившееся называлось:"Провал немецкого наступления под Москвой". Ну не научились наши войска грамотно наступать. Этому ведь тоже надо учиться, чтобы спинным мозгом оценивать обстановку, и не переть грудью на пулемёты, а искать стыки, проскакивать в них, бить с фланга, обходить, обманывать и побеждать. Этому должны были научиться все, от маршала до сержанта. Артиллерийская поддержка, связь, управление в танковых прорывах, инициатива. Ну никак этому умению к декабрю 41-го у армии, которая все время отступала и вылезала из котлов и окружений, не откуда было взяться. Ничего, научились. Гитлеровцы два года завоёвывались Европу. Нашим хватило менее года ( от начала операции "Багратион" до взятия Берлина) чтобы отвоевать все назад и более того.
  • Pomeranian
    Pomeranian 5 December 2015 11: 54 New
    +5
    My grandfather was wounded in October 1941 of the year near Naro-Fominsk. I got to the front only in March 1942 of the year. Eternal glory to the heroes!
    1. tanit
      tanit 5 December 2015 13: 08 New
      -3
      Eternal Glory to your grandfather.
      А теперь -глядя на "коммунистов"- я ловлю себя на желании -сжечь партбилет моего отца. Ему повезло, он до теперешних "коммунистов" не дожил.
      1. Pomeranian
        Pomeranian 5 December 2015 15: 40 New
        +5
        These are not communists. These are opportunists. Do not burn the ticket in any case. After all, it’s not given to you, agree.
  • tanit
    tanit 5 December 2015 12: 31 New
    +3
    You will laugh (although I do not think that this is a reason for laughing). But what kind of division was Panfilov-Alma-Ata or Bishkek - so many noses on different Turkic resources are broken ....
    But everything was just — it was Soviet.
    В том мире, когда "коммунисты" были коммунистами.
    1. Secta haki
      Secta haki 6 December 2015 05: 01 New
      0
      The truth is even simpler - both fought almost without exception, as they later served after the war, in the construction battalion.
  • AID.S
    AID.S 5 December 2015 13: 15 New
    +3
    Quote: tanit
    Eternal Glory to your grandfather.
    А теперь -глядя на "коммунистов"- я ловлю себя на желании -сжечь партбилет моего отца. Ему повезло, он до теперешних "коммунистов" не дожил.

    Sorry, of course, but if you decide to burn, burn on tires, the memory burns best on them ...
  • tanit
    tanit 5 December 2015 13: 22 New
    +4
    Quote: AID.S
    Eternal Glory to your grandfather.
    А теперь -глядя на "коммунистов"- я ловлю себя на желании -сжечь партбилет моего отца. Ему повезло, он до теперешних "коммунистов" не дожил.

    Sorry, of course, but if you decide to burn, burn on tires, the memory burns best on them ...

    No, really. Burn on tires - so burn those who burn tires.
    And I’m not burning my father’s party card.
  • tanit
    tanit 5 December 2015 13: 45 New
    0
    My father was a communist.
    Communists, go ahead !!!! And they went.
  • question
    question 5 December 2015 14: 06 New
    -5
    I don’t want to hear what was there.
    I went to the market, I know one thing. I am a FREE MAN!
    1. tanit
      tanit 5 December 2015 14: 10 New
      +1
      And I'm NOT FREE. Are you a person?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 5 December 2015 14: 25 New
    +6
    Много тут ломается копий "виноват / не виноват Сталин", "виновато/не виновато командование РККА", "насколько силен вермахт" и прочая, прочая. Также много споров о значении разгрома "все-европейских" (!) нацистов под Москвой. Я считаю, что "битва под Москвой" началась не с выхода гитлеровцев к Юхнову, Ясной Поляне и прочим ближним населенным пунктам. Это была всего лишь кульминация. Битва началась минимум со Смоленска, через Ельню, через октябрьский разгром наших 2-х фронтов, через прорыв Гудериана к Туле, и закончилась всем известным финалом, то есть нашей победой. Героев войны за 4 года было много, но мне кажется ,что самый великий герой той войны, это Неизвестный солдат. Тот, кто дрался без надежды на победу в своем личном бою, погибал в окружениях, стоял насмерть. Мы не знаем очень многих героев того периода, не знаем их имен, не знаем, как встретили они смерть, и наверное всего не узнаем никогда. Но они были! Точнее, они есть. Где то они есть в этой Вселенной и существуют. Помнится, из описания подвига 3000 Подольских курсантов против немецкой группировки: "когда передовая рота прибыла на берег реки Угра, наш берег прикрывали 12 десантников и 1 танк". Когда в свое время читал про Подольских, у меня, у взрослого мужика, наворачивались злые слезы. Но их подвиг хотя бы известен и описан, хотя и с запозданием. Но думается, что и те 12 + 3 танкиста отступать не собирались. И таких было много, в разных местах, в разных ситуациях. Первый поклон - таким неизвестным героям. Пока в России есть такой дух, пока мы готовы умирать за весь свой народ в целом, этот народ будет жить.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 5 December 2015 15: 18 New
      +1
      Quote: andrew42
      The battle began at least from Smolensk, through Yelnya, through the October rout of our 2 fronts, through Guderian’s breakthrough to Tula

      I completely agree that the Bryansk fronts saved Moscow, more precisely, laying the bailout, draining and forcing German TG to disperse
    2. tanit
      tanit 5 December 2015 18: 39 New
      -1
      Someone goes to the market, you write. Is the difference between people not only visible to me?
  • parafoiler
    parafoiler 5 December 2015 17: 30 New
    +1
    Glory to the Red Army !!!
  • Avantageur
    Avantageur 5 December 2015 17: 33 New
    0
    “Russia is great, but nowhere to retreat - behind Moscow!”
    1. tanit
      tanit 5 December 2015 18: 20 New
      0
      One phrase, and that's it. soldier
  • tolancop
    tolancop 5 December 2015 19: 07 New
    0
    В обороне Москвы есть одно "белое пятно". О том, как перли немцы по Волоколамскому шоссе книги написаны. О движении по Ленинградскому шоссе тоже информации достаточно. Наро-Фоминск - на слуху. Прикрывавшая Москву с юга Тула - город-герой - тоже в общем написано. А вот о северном направлении как-то ничего или почти ничего. Стоит монумент на Перемиловских высотах в Дмитрове и все.... Немного для себя открыл, когда читал о канале им.Москвы и вкладе его работников в оборону столицы. История и героическая и трагическая.
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 5 December 2015 20: 59 New
      0
      But about the northern direction somehow nothing or almost nothing

      if you don’t know something, it’s not a fact that this is not in nature.
      Karasev Vasily Stepanovich; Rybakov Sergey Stanislavovich
      Rogachevsky site. From defense to offensive.
      Several episodes of the battle for Moscow. November — December 1941
      http://militera.lib.ru/h/karasyov_rybakov01/index.html
      1. tolancop
        tolancop 5 December 2015 23: 39 New
        +1
        But thank you very much for the link to the literature. Be sure to find and read ...
        1. Condor-a
          Condor-a 13 December 2015 04: 33 New
          0
          This is about Rogachev for 2011 (it was released only 70 years after those events). In the Northern direction, things got worse than anywhere else on the near approaches in the Battle of Moscow, therefore writing something about this was not welcomed for a long time, they punished for memoirs, letters of the field soldiers were almost seized.
          Here is another one:
          http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/moscow25/12.html/index.html
          The German broke much farther than they draw on the maps in the first link and developed an attack on Sergiev Posad, Sofrino and Pushkin (MO), half did not reach somewhere. It was much more dangerous than the breakthrough of the German military interchange on Dec 2 in Khimki, which simply went about shooting.
          According to https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Moscow there is nothing about this. In German, too, in English a little.
          Немца благодаря "мастерству" особенно младших и средних командиров (на старших вплоть до ГКЖ тоже хватало) отгоняли от Москвы "людсиким волнами" и потери были соответсвующие.
          Комментарии SectaHaki где было написано еще категоричней чем по первой ссылке были администрацией коллегиально удалены почему? Согласно просьбам подвизгивающих уважаемых "нагайбаков" и "ротмистров"?
          Still, by direct betrayal they brought 150-500 of their soldiers into fire bags.
          Stalin personally drove to the front line, which was in the North of Moscow, 19 km about the Kremlin.
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Secta haki
      Secta haki 6 December 2015 05: 17 New
      -1
      There was the meat grinder, several times everything because of this direction was hanging by a thread, there were the biggest losses both in defense and in the counteroffensive, therefore the coverage of these events was not welcomed. The half-breakthrough of the Germans near Tula-Serpukhov was all the same away from Moscow.
    3. Condor-a
      Condor-a 13 December 2015 04: 40 New
      0
      About what was discovered on this topic where can I read? Throw a link if it does not.
  • james
    james 5 December 2015 21: 23 New
    -1
    Я уже писал: "Каждый мнит себя стратегом видя бой со стороны."
  • potalevl
    potalevl 5 December 2015 21: 48 New
    0
    Everyone on this information resource desires. so that his statement is the ultimate truth. Everyone is trying to convey their truth. And as you know, everyone has their own truth, but the truth is one (with God). Hence pride and admiration, evil and resentment, pluses and minuses. As a result, we again step on the same rake. Spit on the commandments of the Almighty.
  • uragan114
    uragan114 5 December 2015 22: 28 New
    0
    Near Moscow, the Germans were given a snout, under Stalingrad under the breath, near Kursk, a ridge was broken.
    And how it begins to enrage when they say that they did wrong, but it is necessary so.
    ПОБЕДИЛИ те кто "поднимались как один,те кто брал Берлин".
    1. Secta haki
      Secta haki 6 December 2015 04: 05 New
      -1
      Doing everything from Russian fools?
      Not to rage, but to understand what was wrong, it is necessary.
  • PENZA
    PENZA 5 December 2015 23: 09 New
    -2
    Quote: Igor39
    Of course, I admire the feat of YOUR soldiers, but the article was presented so that almost Stalin stopped the Germans, the speech, the resolution on the plan, this is certainly good, but the question arises: Who let the Germans go to Moscow?