Military Review

In heaven and sea

60



Russia suffered the first casualties in Syria for two months: first, Turkish Air Force fighters shot down a Su-24M bomber in the border area, then a Mi-8 helicopter was destroyed during the clash. Two Russian soldiers were killed. The incident not only aggravated relations between Moscow and Istanbul to the limit, but also served as a pretext for strengthening the Russian grouping in Syria with the latest air defense systems. In such a situation, it will be extremely difficult to create a broad coalition against the Islamic radicals operating there, but the Kremlin does not refuse this idea.

News about the crash of the Su-24 on the Syrian-Turkish border found Vladimir Putin on November 24 at his residence Bocharov Ruchei, where he was preparing to receive King Jordan Abdullah II. Already after the first report of the General Staff, it became clear that the situation was out of the ordinary: the Russian military reported that there was no violation of Turkish airspace (it flew at a distance of 1 km from the border of the country), and the Su-24 bomber was shot down over Syria at the height about 6 thousand m air-to-air missile. According to Vlast, on the basis of the importance of the incident, the question of an emergency meeting of the RF Security Council was considered, but in order to conduct it, it was necessary to quickly gather all members of the council. It was quite difficult to do this, because only Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov was in Sochi, and all the other officials were either on a business trip (Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, for example, was on a visit to Egypt), or in Moscow - they could arrive no earlier than In a few hours. Since it was not possible to cancel the visit of the Jordanian leader, who was already on his way to Bocharov Creek, the president decided to make all the key statements at the very beginning of the negotiations.

Vladimir Putin’s words that day were unprecedentedly tough: promising that the downed aircraft "would have serious consequences for Russian-Turkish relations," he accused Turkey of working with terrorists operating in Syria and Iraq. "Today's loss is connected with the blow that the accomplices of terrorism inflicted on us in the back. In another way, I cannot qualify what happened today," he said.

Initially, no one wanted to believe in the version of the deliberate attack of the Turkish fighters, the high-ranking Vlast source in the Russian government structures admits, but the facts supported this particular version. Representatives of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation wanted to reach their Turkish counterparts through military-diplomatic channels, but they did not want to talk: they most likely expected instructions from the country's political leadership. Representatives of the leadership pointedly and publicly said that the downed plane violated the space of Turkey and their pilots had every right to open fire to kill, especially since ten warnings were allegedly issued to the crew of the Russian Su-24M. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation did not have such information, but the means of their objective control clearly indicated: the bomber was shot down in Syrian airspace. It was impossible to contact the Turks - none of the many attempts to success led, and in the meantime, Turkey made contact with the NATO countries. According to Vlast, this fact was the last straw, due to which Vladimir Putin allowed himself to speak out, practically not holding back.

The situation was aggravated by the death of Lieutenant Colonel Oleg Peshkov, commander of the Su-24 - he was shot by the terrorists still in the air, literally a few seconds after the ejection from the wrecked plane. The navigator Konstantin Murakhtin miraculously escaped: the military said that the captain not only promptly made contact with the Khmeimim airbase, where the Russian air group is stationed, but also hid for hours from the pursuit of the militants. As soon as the UAVs recorded its location, two Mi-8 helicopters with special forces were sent to the Kyzyl-Dag mountains. By this time, Murakhtin had already been found by servicemen of the Syrian government army, the co-workers could only evacuate him and deliver him to Hmeymim. However, during the operation, one of the helicopters came under fire and was forced to sit down near the Turkmen mountains. A shootout ensued, during which the Marine Alexander Poznich received a mortal wound to the neck. As a result, one helicopter managed to fly away, the second, according to the General Staff, was destroyed by mortar fire. All three servicemen presented to state awards. Two - Peshkov and Pozynic - they got posthumously.


Apart from these losses, the second month of the Syrian operation was quite successful for Russia: they were reported at the General Staff that in only 48 days aviation The Russian Air Force performed 2289 sorties and launched 4111 missile and bomb strikes on the main infrastructure, accumulations of military equipment and manpower of the militants. Reporting to the president on November 20, Sergei Shoigu stated that the main efforts are focused "on undermining the financial and economic base" of the terrorists of the Islamic State banned in Russia. "This ensures the successful operation of the Syrian government forces in the regions of Aleppo, Idlib and mountain Latakia, as well as Palmyra," the minister reported, adding that the number of terrorists arriving in the country is declining. The aviation group, on the contrary, was growing: Su-24M and Su-34 bombers, Su-25SM attack aircraft, Su-30SM fighters, and four Su-27SM3 fighters and eight Su-34 fighters, were located in Hmeimim. At the same time, strikes were also carried out with the help of strategic aviation (Tu-95MS, Tu-160 and Tu-22M3), which are armed with cruise missiles X-101 and X-555.

The maritime group in the Mediterranean and the Caspian Sea consisted of ten ships. At the same time, the 20 November rocket ship Dagestan and the small rocket ships Uglich, Grad Sviyazhsk and Veliky Ustyug launched 18 cruise missiles Caliber-NK on seven targets in the provinces of Raqqa, Idlib and Aleppo. In total, according to Sergey Shoigu, in the period from 17 to 20 in November, an 101 cruise missile of air and sea-based missiles was launched, as a result of which, taking into account the bombing, the enemy’s 826 objects were eliminated. According to a source in Vlasti, in the operational military command and control bodies, the build-up of forces and means to fight terrorists in Syria took place in stages and depending on specific tasks: for example, shelling of Caliber missiles from the Caspian Sea was carried out because large objects of gangs. “They had to be eliminated as a matter of urgency,” he explained, adding that for the same reason, strategic aviation was involved. The increase in the air group in Khmeimim occurred to cover the troops of Bashar al-Assad at the time of the attack on the position of terrorists.

Despite the general attitude towards the struggle with the "Islamic State", there are quite a few obstacles to creating a broad coalition.

The incident with the Su-24 led to major changes during the operation: the next day, the Guards missile cruiser "Moscow", serving in the Mediterranean group of the Navy, took a new position in the coastal part of Latakia. Moreover, armed with the C-300F Fort, an anti-aircraft missile system, he was ordered to destroy any airborne target that poses a potential danger to Russian aircraft. The newest C-400 Triumph air defense systems were deployed in Khmeimim, for which the Syrian operation was the first combat test, and all Russian bomber aircraft should perform combat missions solely under the cover of fighter aircraft. There is an imbalance: on the 24 front-line bomber (in 12 units Su-24M and Su-34) there are only eight Su-30СМ and Su-27СМ fighters. However, according to the interlocutor of "Power", he will be corrected in the near future by redeploying another fighter link to Syria.

Obviously, these measures are not aimed at fighting the "Islamic State" (they do not have aircraft), but at controlling the airspace in which also aircraft of NATO countries, including Turkey, fly. At the Pentagon, not all measures taken by the Russian Defense Ministry found understanding. “Such systems (C-400.—“ Power ”) will further complicate the already complicated situation in the sky over Syria and will not do anything to advance the fight against terrorists,” said Lieutenant Colonel Michel Baldans. A senior military official of the Ministry of Defense commented on this statement to the authorities briefly: "We do not intend to fight against coalition planes, but we will ensure the safety of our aircraft and our people by any available means."

If relations between Russia and Turkey are affected in almost all areas (Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev spoke directly about the introduction of sanctions against recent friends last week), then the chances of creating a broad coalition, despite the extremely tense situation, still persist. Speaking at the ceremony of presenting foreign ambassadors of credentials to 26 on November 12, Vladimir Putin said: “I hope that a truly broad international antiterrorist coalition will finally be formed, which will act in a coordinated manner as one powerful force, and in particular will support the actions of the Russian military performing successful operations against terrorist groupings and structures in Syria. " He expressed the hope that after the terrorist attacks aboard the Russian Airbus A-321 airliner in Egypt and the bombings in France, the brutal massacres in Lebanon, Nigeria and Mali "there will come an understanding of the need to unite the efforts of the entire international community in the fight against terror."

Military and diplomatic officials interviewed by Vlast argued that even after the crash of the Su-24M, there is a chance of creating a coalition, especially since the idea is supported by the leaders of Italy and France. After a series of terrorist attacks in Paris, the President of the Fifth Republic, Francois Hollande, even offered to forget about disagreements and “unite the might” of France, Russia and the USA and in support of his words sent the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle with multipurpose aircraft to the shores of Syria. Vladimir Putin ordered Russian sailors to establish contact with French colleagues and act "as allies."

Despite the general attitude to the struggle with the "Islamic State", there are quite a few obstacles to creating a broad coalition. For example, according to an official spokesman for the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, by November 26, "not one of the countries of the anti-Igil coalition had ever named a single district or an object belonging to terrorists." Until now, Russia and the NATO countries disagree on who exactly is being hit: the West believes that Bashar Assad’s opponents are the victims of Russian planes and missiles, and not radical Islamists. In Moscow, it is refuted. The statement by the NATO leadership regarding the existing confirmation of the Turkish version of the Su-24 crash added fuel to the fire. And although it was subsequently disavowed, it is not necessary to count on an early stabilization. “What the Turks have done is treason, and we don’t forget betrayal, as well as those who cover these traitors,” a high-ranking Kremlin source told Vlast.
Author:
Originator:
http://kommersant.ru/doc/2862703
60 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. aszzz888
    aszzz888 5 December 2015 07: 23 New
    +1
    I think the answer will be to the Turks 100%, and it is not far off.
    I don’t want to get it out! angry
    1. kuz363
      kuz363 5 December 2015 09: 12 New
      11
      Yes, there will be nothing in return. Because the brave generals because of the victorious reports have lost their sense of reality. And they slammed the situation. It was necessary to answer immediately, but now the train left. And Russia will lose more from sanctions. Moreover, they will continue to build the Turkish stream and nuclear power plants for budget money for free. And then wonder - why is there not enough money?
      1. aba
        aba 5 December 2015 11: 17 New
        +6
        Moreover, they will continue to build the Turkish stream and nuclear power plants for budget money for free.

        Projects are already frozen.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. alicante11
        alicante11 5 December 2015 13: 03 New
        +1
        Because the brave generals, because of the victorious reports, have lost their sense of reality.


        Well, not from the victorious reports, but from the fact that they seem to have agreed that no one will interfere with anyone. Well, our authorities cannot understand that it is impossible to trust the West.

        It was necessary to answer immediately, but now the train left


        Yeah, you say that because at that time you didn’t have a rest in Turkey. But what would it be to those who were there?

        Yes, there will be nothing in return.


        Yes, do not worry, the Turks run into concrete, so that will give more than one reason.
      4. Vasya_kuvalesov
        Vasya_kuvalesov 5 December 2015 13: 36 New
        0
        sound comment
      5. igor.borov775
        igor.borov775 5 December 2015 20: 17 New
        +5
        Hello!. YOU listened to your President or were asleep. Our military contacted the coalition. Even before the outbreak of hostilities. And the fact that our aircraft arrived in Syria was an open secret. We saw and knew all this. Ours asked the air defense system for ig have an answer, have mercy, we destroyed them, there are manual systems. The question is what altitude level is safe 6000 meters. EW systems are needed. Why there is a communication frequency agreed with us. No problems. It willn’t be. Our targets dropped and the air flew up. Remember the first strike on some very protected mountain where the most complicated system of concrete tunnels is a multi-level communication system and well-fortified defense system. By the way, the Yankees were visually marked there. Only those they showed everyone who was supposed to and said that it was the center of communication and management. And went camp headquarters warehouses and the like. And the Yankees were silent at first, and only after the US Secretary of State announced that they weren’t destroying them. And this, after a week of bombing, was the first sign that the United States was in a very difficult situation. I remember the story of local residents of those places that were able to go through all the obstacles and go to the Syrian troops . They about the place where the first bombs fell said simply the appearance there immediately death. No one had the right to appear there without a pass, even those who had no access were destroyed. and another moment there were always coalition planes in the air but they never bombed Our pilots saw foreign planes but there were no problems. And having shot down our plane a coalition member clearly showed who is who. At a press conference after negotiations with the French President it was announced. from now on, all our aircraft will be equipped with everything that they must have combat vehicles in battle. They no longer believe in words. they will judge matters. And about projects, this is Turkey’s problem, not ours. Something like this.
      6. ZAV69
        ZAV69 6 December 2015 11: 59 New
        0
        the flow has already been officially frozen; nuclear plants are likely to freeze too
    2. synodontis
      synodontis 5 December 2015 17: 21 New
      +2
      like the tourists have already left. It's time for Erdogan to rip tomatoes
  2. Ivan Slavyanin
    Ivan Slavyanin 5 December 2015 08: 24 New
    +5
    What is the article about? This is a retelling of other articles.
    1. -Traveller-
      -Traveller- 5 December 2015 22: 14 New
      +1
      Yeah, I saved up the paragraphs, and now the analyte.
  3. e_krendel
    e_krendel 5 December 2015 09: 07 New
    +3
    USA vs. ISIS is “bees against honey”
    So the Western "calicion" does not fight with anyone, they do not have such a task.
  4. shura7782
    shura7782 5 December 2015 10: 25 New
    +3
    Quote: aszzz888
    I think the answer will be to the Turks 100%, and it is not far off.
    I don’t want to get it out! angry

    I will be satisfied if we carry out carpet bombing of Turkish troops in Syria. It is not far off.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. creak
      creak 5 December 2015 10: 56 New
      +3
      Quote: shura7782
      I will be satisfied if we carry out carpet bombing of Turkish troops in Syria. It is not far off.


      Since you certainly know better what to do, now the Ministry of Defense, of course, will make appropriate adjustments to the plans for the air operation in Syria in accordance with your wishes and predictions ... He will do everything to make you satisfied ... yes
    3. Cat man null
      Cat man null 5 December 2015 12: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: shura7782
      I will be satisfied if we carry out carpet bombing of Turkish troops in Syria

      ... and thus, we get a real, "hot" war with a member of NATA. States only dream about it, believe me. For the same, in practice, they started a business - they broke off. Now there is Turkey ..

      Quote: shura7782
      It's not far off

      Tipun to your tongue, sorry request
  5. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 11: 52 New
    +2
    Everyone imagines himself a strategist seeing a battle from afar!
    What a pity that all knowledgeable people gathered on the Internet. Having intelligence, economic reports do not know what to do. And the people on the network are knowledgeable and intelligent, where the leadership of the country is before them.
    You are all so smart, but how should Russia respond, sweep Turkey into radioactive ashes, or start a war? Are you personally advisers and critics, most of whom will go to war? no, you won’t go! For the most part, you will get fake certificates. You will criticize the government. give advice, And then, so as not to rake in the war, you will become oppositionists and will conduct peace marches.
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 5 December 2015 12: 16 New
      +5
      Quote: Kostya Andrei
      Are you personally advisers and critics, most of whom will go to war? no, you won’t go! For the most part, you will get fake certificates. You will criticize the government. give advice, And then, so as not to rake in the war, you will become opposition and will conduct peace marches

      Yes, they will not, of course. Only if

      Quote: Kostya Andrei
      sweep Turkey into radioactive ashes, or start a war?

      it will not help them much. Because there will be no winners in the 3rd world, and the 4th will be driven with digging sticks ... if you have anyone left, who will lead it.

      Somehow yes

      In general, it’s sad on the number of comments like “tear”, “all in dust” and so on. It’s bad with the people’s head, it’s bad .. the truth - yesterday was Friday, maybe blame it? wink
  6. onix757
    onix757 5 December 2015 11: 57 New
    +3
    Having intelligence, economic reports do not know what to do.

    Judging by the unfinished work in Georgia, he does not know the surrender of interests in Ukraine and the belated reaction in Syria and the difficult situation in the economy. And if he knows, then everything suits him.
  7. Cat man null
    Cat man null 5 December 2015 12: 02 New
    0
    Quote: onix757
    Judging by the unfinished work in Georgia, he does not know the surrender of interests in Ukraine and the belated reaction in Syria and the difficult situation in the economy

    Uh, yo-yo ...

    - What do you think means “completed work” in Georgia? What should have happened so that you were satisfied with the "work"?
    - similarly - what, in your opinion, means "surrender of interests" in Ukraine?
    - why in Syria - "belated reaction"? Why do you consider her belated, in a sense?

    Please expand your deep thought. I'd like to understand what you and your kind are thinking about ..
    1. onix757
      onix757 5 December 2015 12: 17 New
      +6
      - What do you think means “completed work” in Georgia?
      - similarly - what does "surrender of interests" mean in Ukraine?
      - why in Syria - "belated reaction"? Why do you consider her belated, in a sense?

      Well try:
      1) If they had taken Tbilisi in 2008, at the moment there would have been no problem laying gas pipelines bypassing the Russian Federation, the logistics of supplying our base in Armenia and in the light of recent Syria events have been facilitated, they have deprived NATO of a bridgehead on the southern borders.
      2) Ukraine had to be taken under the protectorate at least along the Dnieper, thereby depriving the junta of industrial potential and at the same time protecting the pro-Russian population. Today we have a hostile, densely populated country with powerful industrial potential, under the protectorate of the United States also at our borders. With the accumulation of forces and means, there will be a go-ahead for hostilities.
      3) Syria, by the means that were thrown there at this stage, it is not possible to save. 4 years ago it was possible now not. This action is not to save Syria, but rather to stake out a piece of land there, and to show how Russia defends its allies. Although there is by and large nothing to protect there.
      _____________________
      Now take a look at the map and you will understand that the United States has achieved its goal of tightening the loop around the Russian Federation due to the indecision of the leadership and the cries of urapatriots.
      There are no allies in the powers that allow you to hammer in your allies the Stone Age and destroy the population (especially Russian)
      1. Kostya Andreev
        Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 12: 56 New
        +2
        1. You propose again to contain Georgia at the expense of the Russian Federation. (They didn’t take it because you could not give advice to Putin)
        2. And you know what the "forest brothers" are. Offer sponsorship of the state’s economy whose people hate us. You suggest once again building, investing, and then we will be called an occupier for this. (Go volunteer, make a contribution, so to speak)
        3. And 4 years ago, Russia was stronger than now?
        That's about such a subject, I said, "Everyone imagines himself a strategist seeing a battle from afar !." a child sits and fantasizes!
        1. onix757
          onix757 5 December 2015 13: 23 New
          +3
          Quote: Kostya Andrei
          1. offer to again support Georgia at the expense of the Russian Federation.

          Sheer stupidity. Georgia is an agricultural production, fertile land and market. Isn’t this what world powers are fighting for now? There is no need to think that Georgia cannot give anything and not only its strategic position. But you don’t worry about how much the budget of Chechnya costs if it is beneficial to someone. And in the case of Georgia, the economic benefit would be real if the case was properly set up.
          Quote: Kostya Andrei
          2. And you know what the "forest brothers" are. Offer sponsorship of the state’s economy whose people hate us. You suggest once again building, investing, and then we will be called an occupier for this. (Go volunteer, make a contribution, so to speak)

          It is only for liberals such diamonds in the crown of industry as Yuzhmash and AN are a burden. As for some brothers (forest ones), it’s easier to deal with them than with bases near the borders of the Russian Federation. And then, I didn’t offer to take western Ukraine as a protectorate, but I wouldn’t give it away.
          And 4 years ago, Russia was stronger than now?

          And this question needs to be addressed to the Commander-in-Chief and the stool, which are periodically praised here for the successes in restoring our defenses. Although it is clear that neither then nor now can we compete for political and economic reasons.
          Quote: Kostya Andrei
          That's about such a subject, I said, "Everyone imagines himself a strategist seeing a battle from afar !." a child sits and fantasizes!

          You may not be a strategist, but common sense should be present in any undertaking.
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 5 December 2015 22: 01 New
            -1
            Quote: onix757
            But you don’t worry about how much the budget of Chechnya costs if it is beneficial to someone. And in the case of Georgia, the economic benefit would be real if the case was properly set up.

            Chechnya is our region and it is necessary to develop it, otherwise others will develop it.
            The occupation of Georgia will not give anything in terms of the economy, but it will give a huge headache in the political sense
      2. Cat man null
        Cat man null 5 December 2015 13: 03 New
        +3
        Quote: onix757
        Well, I'll try

        Thanks for the detailed answer. It seems to me, Kostya Andreev I already answered you at 1, 2 and 3. I can supplement it, but it will not change the essence.

        Regarding the same

        Quote: onix757
        You will understand that the United States has achieved its goal of tightening the loop around the Russian Federation

        - reminds an old joke:

        - Vasya, I caught a bear here!
        “So drag him here!”
        - But he doesn’t let me go !!

        And more:

        Quote: onix757
        There are no allies in powers that allow

        I’ll tell you one secret: there are no allies at all. There are affinity partners, and they always - for some finite time.
        1. onix757
          onix757 5 December 2015 13: 25 New
          -1
          Quote: Cat Man Null
          I’ll tell you one secret: there are no allies at all. There are affinity partners, and they always - for some finite time.

          Well, if it treats them like a pig, then of course it doesn’t happen.
  8. red_october
    red_october 5 December 2015 12: 38 New
    0
    on the 24 front-line bomber (for 12 units of Su-24М and Su-34) there are only eight Su-30СМ and Su-27СМ fighters.

    - Su-24M left 11 units (1 shot down);
    - fighters total 8: according to 4 Su-30СМ and Su-27СМ.

    It is necessary to correct the imbalance ...
  9. Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 12: 59 New
    0
    Anyone who criticizes the government. Advise how to fix the situation in the economy. Tell me, how can I open my production, having competed with a cheap Chinese and high-quality European product.
    1. onix757
      onix757 5 December 2015 13: 26 New
      +4
      Quote: Kostya Andrei
      Anyone who criticizes the government. Advise how to fix the situation in the economy. Tell me, how can I open my production, having competed with a cheap Chinese and high-quality European product.

      No way. only a fundamental change in the economic course can help you.
      1. Kostya Andreev
        Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 14: 55 New
        -2
        And how to change the economic course? Take everything and share? Take away from the rich and give away to the poor?
        And how to determine from whom to take away and to whom to distribute?
        1. onix757
          onix757 5 December 2015 15: 00 New
          0
          Read what Glazyev offers. There is no desire to write comments for the sake of comments.
          1. Kostya Andreev
            Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 15: 20 New
            -2
            But the theorist Glazyev? what he is famous for, what his achievements are. Russia has already followed the theory of building communism! And why should they listen to him and not Soros for example, or do they want our "liberal economists" to "develop Russia",
            I appeal to you, advise me how to start a business? If you give advice to the president, then you will help me!
            1. onix757
              onix757 5 December 2015 16: 33 New
              +2
              But the theorist Glazyev? what he is famous for, what his achievements are. Russia has already followed the theory of building communism!

              And what is the DAM practice famous for, you know? When Russia followed the theory of communism, it was a superpower.
              And why should they listen to him and not Soros for example, or do they also want our "liberal economists" to "develop Russia"

              Are you sure the site was not mistaken?
              1. Kostya Andreev
                Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 17: 02 New
                -1
                Simply, I ask why the theoretician Glazyev, and not liberals? they are also different in theory.
                When Russia followed the theory of communism, it contained all the rabble that now hangs on the neck of the EU.
                DAM's achievements you can see when he was president. RF. What are Glazyev’s achievements?
                1. onix757
                  onix757 5 December 2015 17: 09 New
                  0
                  Because Glazyev proposes strengthening the role of the state in financial policy and economics. There will be no success without this.
                  1. Kostya Andreev
                    Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 17: 27 New
                    -1
                    I know what he offers, I ask you to say about achievements.
                    offering darkness to us
                    1. onix757
                      onix757 5 December 2015 20: 19 New
                      -1
                      Achievements will be when we bring to power
                      1. Cat man null
                        Cat man null 5 December 2015 20: 38 New
                        0
                        Quote: onix757
                        Achievements will be when we bring to power

                        And then the late one will rush about ..

                        My personal opinion is Glazyev - a balabol who never sniffed "managerial gunpowder", who has no management practice. Words speak beautiful but yes lol

                        There was such a program "500 days", I still remember it. So, Glazyev is from the same series as its authors.

                        And you propose to “lead” to the management of the economy and finances of the state .. is that it?

                        On a plane that the janitor will control - sit down? I definitely don’t. And managing the Russian economy is much trickier (and more dangerous) than controlling any aircraft.

                        All IMHO, naturally yes
                      2. onix757
                        onix757 5 December 2015 20: 49 New
                        0
                        Quote: Cat Man Null
                        My personal opinion is Glazyev - a balabol who never sniffed "managerial gunpowder", who has no management practice. Words speak beautiful but yes

                        It is better to give the "sniff of managerial gunpowder" to an intelligent statesman and a stupid liberal.
                        There was such a program "500 days", I still remember it. So, Glazyev is from the same series as its authors.

                        Which one? As far as I remember, this program is from a series of liberal Yavlinsky.
                        And you propose to “lead” to the management of the economy and finances of the state .. is that it?
                        On a plane that the janitor will control - sit down? I definitely don’t. And managing the Russian economy is much trickier (and more dangerous) than controlling any aircraft.

                        Well, now nothing bothers you .. sit on such an airplane. smile
                      3. Cat man null
                        Cat man null 5 December 2015 21: 07 New
                        0
                        Quote: onix757
                        It’s better to give a smart statesman a "sniff of managerial gunpowder" than a stupid liberal

                        Damn .. these liberals were given to you .. this is just a curse laughing

                        It is better not to allow a person who in real life did not even control a bicycle to control the aircraft. IMHO.

                        Quote: onix757
                        Which one?

                        Science fiction writers. The word "liberal" was not yet as fashionable and as abusive as it is now.

                        Quote: onix757
                        Well, now nothing bothers you .. sit on such an airplane

                        - you cannot know for sure what confuses me and what doesn't
                        - not .. IMHO not so laughing
                      4. onix757
                        onix757 5 December 2015 21: 13 New
                        +1
                        It is better not to allow a person who in real life did not even control a bicycle to control the aircraft. IMHO.
                        And who in our government has "driven the bike" before? Where have they been taught this?
                        Science fiction writers. The word "liberal" was not yet as fashionable and as abusive as it is now.

                        Fiction writers are sitting in our white house and unrealistic economic forecasts spank.
                        you cannot know for sure what confuses me and what doesn't
                        - not .. IMHO not so laughing

                        Something tells me that our plane is in extremely poor technical condition with an external gloss smile
                      5. Cat man null
                        Cat man null 5 December 2015 21: 25 New
                        -1
                        Quote: onix757
                        .

                        I propose to stop the transfusion from empty to empty at the level of grandmothers in the mound.

                        I am not an economist nirazu. But by the nature of my work, I sometimes have to communicate with very knowledgeable people. What I'm trying to "sell" here is a product of my conversations with them on various burning topics.

                        In addition, I am really seeing some changes, it seems to me - in the right direction.

                        To convince you of what seems right to me is no reason for me and laziness.

                        You simply “return the pitch”, without giving any arguments. On the principle of "this is not so because I said."

                        I minimize the discussion, over hi
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 13: 53 New
    +4
    friends of course you can talk about how to fight the Turks. but we must not get involved in the long. we need accurate deadly bombing missile strikes at the navy's air force bases and ammunition depot and airborne complexes (factory factories). we get involved in a long risk of repeating the Crimean war, in which case you will definitely have to use yao or tiao. because now we are like a repost under siege. we need to bring the Turks to their knees with lightning speed, occupy the Bosphorus and focus on the western direction.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. creak
      creak 5 December 2015 14: 18 New
      +3
      Quote: newbie
      we need to bring the Turks to their knees with lightning speed, occupy the Bosphorus and focus on the western direction.


      "Quickly cook dinner and step on Sokal" ..
      Y. Hasek "Adventures of the Good Svejk Soda" ...

      PS Is there enough hat to throw the Turks? .. what
    3. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 5 December 2015 22: 06 New
      0
      Quote: newbie
      we need to bring the Turks to their knees with lightning speed, occupy the Bosphorus and focus on the western direction.

      You urgently need to be appointed Chief of the General Staff, you will plan the capture of the Bosphorus
      In general, the comments are simply astounding, deliver a nuclear strike, bomb the bases. Do you think they will sit and watch? Thank God that you are not the president of Russia
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 14: 26 New
    +4
    touched by your comment. but apparently you still do not understand the essence of what I said. If you prefer the long bloody meat grinders _ where we will be completely in front of the flocks of jackals. to become bloodless and only then apply yao (tiao)? you can skip a meaningless mess and seize the initiative. this is what i am trying to say.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. creak
      creak 5 December 2015 14: 56 New
      +5
      Quote: newbie
      if you like long bloody meat grinders


      And for some time I have not liked a meat grinder at all, because at one time I already visited one ... I dare to assure you that those who have experienced in their own skin what a real, non-cinematic war is not inclined to brandish a saber in vain ( I’m also talking about my colleagues, who also sniffed gunpowder at one time) ...
      The war has a very unsightly bloody wrong side, which can be seen from the trench, and not sitting at the computer and risking nothing ...
      Paphos and enthusiasm disappear after the first two hundredth or even three hundredth - “with little blood, a powerful blow will not work” - there are no easy walks ...
    3. Kostya Andreev
      Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 14: 59 New
      0
      And if it doesn’t work out with accurate massive hits? and you can’t take the bosporus? what then to do? give up
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 15: 34 New
    +4
    Let's start with the second: then we can’t take the Bosphorus and then there’s nothing to start. then swallow the tears for su24 and mi8 with the pilot of the marines. then there’s nothing to talk about. no need to scream that we are a superpower. something like that. The following respected combatant, summarizing your comment, I still do not understand what your question is. you are against the bloody massacre of two strong armies, you are against lightning-fast rocket attacks. you are against everything. Well, let’s sit down at home with a bull to reap when the Dulles dream comes true. but in general you cling to the words but in general you understand my comment or ran over from top to bottom. the main meaning of my words is not to get involved in the repetition of the Crimean war _ long exhausting. what about la I ... yes you ... in vain you are.
    1. creak
      creak 5 December 2015 15: 55 New
      +1
      Quote: newbie
      you are against everything. Well, let’s sit down at home with a bull to reap when the Dulles dream comes true. but in general you cling to the words but in general you understand my comment or ran over from top to bottom. the main meaning of my words is not to get involved in the repetition of the Crimean war _ long exhausting. what about la I ... yes you ... in vain you are.


      I wonder what you wanted to say with this stream of words? And Crimea and Dulles, the Bosphorus and rocket attacks .... "
      Sorry for the directness, but it looks like you really didn’t play war games as a child and now continue to catch up ...
      What I wanted to say, I said, and in my opinion it is quite clear - if you didn’t understand, then this is your problem - the time will come, perhaps you will understand, everything happens in life ...
      In the meantime, I wish further virtual blitzkriegs ... hi
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 16: 05 New
    +4
    it's a deal then. each with his own. in a stream of words you don’t know or forgot ... okay _ apparently everyone will be rewarded according to his mind. and the fact that we can’t avoid this cup, I hope you have seen in the stream of your misunderstanding. oh dear really what am I talking to, who am I?
  • Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 16: 11 New
    +2
    And where do you know that we cannot? It’s just that the Russian Federation is now in a situation where one embarrassing movement and the country’s finale. You won’t go to war! You or your parents are ready to pay a loan when the salary is reduced, the parents will be glad if their son arrives with a load of 200, your friends and you are ready to quit the business in order to go to war. What you offer will result in a slaughter, and economic collapse.
    Turkey at any moment can say: sorry, they were mistaken, but they were embarrassed to apologize, but the Russian Federation began the war, help the world. And the world will begin to help, saying that because of a mistake, they don’t start a war. Another blockade and sanctions are ensured in our country. And do not talk. that sanctions are nonsense
    You need less to play a computer. And not everything can be solved by scuffle, it is better when the enemy becomes a partner.
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 16: 23 New
    +4
    yes, let's go all three brothers. I was not noticed in loans and I do not advise the rest. Listen and where such confidence that the little fellow? and about everything else, you just made a wine salad. I repeat about the economy we have already crushed. If you want to continue, you get the result you were talking about. but when they apologize, when they pay the pilot’s family for the plane and pension, then I agree with you. but so far things are not there: in their opinion, we must apologize.
    1. Kostya Andreev
      Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 16: 56 New
      +2
      But how did you buy an apartment, a car, did you give your children an education, without a loan? well done I would learn so.
      Do you lead my friend, do you know the economy is a very interesting thing. And you do not always need to listen to the heart, you need to think with your head. And we have not yet been crushed, half of humanity is with us, but what you offer will give the enemies of our country a trump card in their hands, and in this way they can force other countries to join the sanctions against the Russian Federation. since with the inadequacy, which for an erroneously shot down plane, destroys countries, women and children, few will want to deal with it. (The case will be presented just like that)
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 16: 59 New
    +4
    the first plane was shot down not by mistake and stop already clever. or wash your face in the bath. about how I live you can get the keys to the apartment ...
    1. Kostya Andreev
      Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 17: 19 New
      0
      I agree not mistakenly, and the whole progressive world believes that Turkey has been defending itself, and you for the fact that the country has defended are offering to kill the children of women. (the case will be presented just like that).
      You need to read carefully what is written in brackets. (The case will be presented just like that).
      No keys are needed, I just ask you to teach how to buy a car, an apartment and learn children without a loan. Most likely you are young and such problems do not stand before you yet.
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 17: 01 New
    +4
    the first plane was shot down not by mistake and stop already clever. or wash your face in the bath. about how I live you can get the keys to the apartment ...
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 17: 03 New
    +5
    the first plane was shot down not by mistake and stop already clever. or wash your face in the bath. about how I live you can get the keys to the apartment ...
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 17: 28 New
    +4
    I repeat the strike on the bases of the air force of the navy sun. it's about mindfulness. progressive humanity lives on its own without us and for a long time. As for the mistake, dear, some kind of mistake was lost two military and two equipment. good mistake. apologies again, payment of pensions to families, payment for equipment. I'm not young I have two children of students. if you cannot live without loans then your position is clear.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Kostya Andreev
    Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 18: 45 New
    0
    what you offered is a warrior. and then what happens is described in my comments. then your sons will go to war.
    Always envied people who can live without loans. I can’t save for an apartment, a car, etc. Sorry with age. I didn’t want to offend, just such an expression is characteristic of young people.
  • Pvi1206
    Pvi1206 5 December 2015 18: 55 New
    -1
    There is no war without sacrifices.
    But now the Russian Federation does not need to justify the buildup of forces in Syria.
  • newcomer
    newcomer 5 December 2015 19: 24 New
    +4
    dear, maybe I’ll say a little out of fashion, but tell me why or why we men are needed at all, if at the right time when the movie comes, quit and go. I was brought up like that, I am brought up like that. Sorry, but from your comments I realized that for you in the first place is a quiet life on credit and comfort in your home, but understand the loans will run out, comfort will disappear if you wipe your feet about our homeland. let’s one last time: two killed warriors, two destroyed units. technicians. the only thing you need from these nonhumans: an official apology, the payment of a lifetime pension to the children of the deceased, payment for equipment. and it will be possible to say the incident is over. but instead, what we have: the Turks shout about our apologies, in Europe they assent to them, the Turks move the border into the depths of the Sar, bribed Iraqi Kurds and entered the Iraqi bootalion. I do not want to repeat yesterday, but again: the Moscow cruiser off the coast of Syria is grazed by the Yankees and Turks. the Yankees entered the Black Sea (obviously to the Bosphorus), in Ukraine they are ready for a winter throw to the east. Can you imagine if they synchronously start at one o'clock, what will it turn out to us? it is not for me to tell you that progressive mankind will only be glad of our losses. I don’t know what else or how else to explain to you: twice two four.
    1. Kostya Andreev
      Kostya Andreev 5 December 2015 21: 12 New
      0
      you offer to help progressive humanity, reduce the number of Russians.
      And from your comment, I realized that a person to satisfy his
      moral principles ready to send to the next world millions of people.