Military Review

Russia and China have signed a contract for the delivery of a batch of Su-35 aircraft

188
Russia and China have signed a contract for the supply to the PRC of 24 of the latest multifunctional super-maneuverable Su-35 fighters. It is reported that the contract amount is estimated at 2 billion dollars. If this amount really corresponds to the terms of the contract, it turns out that the price of one military aircraft for China was about 83 million US dollars.


Newspaper Kommersant cites the statement of the head of Rostec Sergey Chemezov:
The long negotiations on the delivery of the Su-35 to China have been completed, we have signed a contract.


In this case, the People’s Republic of China becomes the first foreign country to which Russian Su-35 aircraft will be delivered.

In all likelihood, the details of the deal were discussed during a visit to Moscow by the deputy chairman of the Central Military Council of the PRC, Colonel-General Xu Tsilyan. The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation noted that issues of countering terrorism and aspects of military-technical cooperation were discussed with the Chinese delegation.

Russia and China have signed a contract for the delivery of a batch of Su-35 aircraft


It should be noted that the preliminary agreement for the supply of Su-35 to China was signed in 2012 year. All this time, the parties have been negotiating a contracting formula. Apparently, the formula was found, and Su-35 will soon begin to be delivered to Celestial.
Photos used:
http://stat.function.mil.ru
188 comments
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  1. Vladimyrych
    Vladimyrych 19 November 2015 06: 32
    24
    Bad ... We sell sensitive technologies. It is not yet known how it comes down on the arms market and on the security of our country ...
    1. Semen Semyonitch
      Semen Semyonitch 19 November 2015 06: 42
      40
      Quote: Vladimir
      . We sell sensitive technologies.

      Where does technology transfer say? They will be picked around, this is their national feature. They still have not really learned how to copy AL-31F ... Although some solutions are stolen in any way.
      1. Semen Semyonitch
        Semen Semyonitch 19 November 2015 07: 02
        17
        What gentlemen minus players disagree with? If you know the terms of the contract, educate about the "transfer" of technology. Or maybe you were outraged that they still can't copy old engines?
        1. Temples
          Temples 19 November 2015 08: 38
          14
          Timely.
          The following year, the T-50 begins to enter the troops.
          Itself a new generation of aircraft in China, great aircraft for good money.
          So nothing bad.
          1. Temples
            Temples 19 November 2015 09: 02
            +2
            Blame me for a hair dryer! laughing
            How dare to rejoice at such news? angry
            Surely a Chinese spy!
            1. Baikonur
              Baikonur 19 November 2015 09: 21
              +6
              I noticed that there are "some" shaiki-leiki that are minus the majority! And they raise "their" ones! recently one takoi (I will not name it all the same!) for the first day - from scratch - starley, (while 29 comments are not the most) for the second day - p / p-k (I repeat again - comments on the amount do not pull, i.e. e. his own "handful" personal rating raised him!)!
              1. bulvas
                bulvas 19 November 2015 09: 42
                12
                Quote: Baikonur
                I noticed that there are "some" shaiki-leiki that are minus the majority! And they raise "their" ones! recently one takoi (I will not name it all the same!) for the first day - from scratch - starley, (while 29 comments are not the most) for the second day - p / p-k (I repeat again - comments on the amount do not pull, i.e. e. his own "handful" personal rating raised him!)!



                Interestingly, what is the practical use of a high rating?
                1. _Vladislav_
                  _Vladislav_ 19 November 2015 09: 51
                  +7
                  Again disputes on the topic of selling do not sell?)
                  The arms market does not tolerate dogma.

                  Definitely sell. The arms market needs to loop back on itself. For the purchase of one such unit inevitably entails the purchase of components, the purchase of weapons, and service — in short, long-term dependence on the supply of Russian weapons (work, services).

                  Also, if you remember, Russia intends to supply the S-400 to China. All this is done so that the neighbors have a desire to acquire equipment no worse. By the fact that the possession of such technology outweighs the balance of power in the region. And from whom to get? In light of the recent misunderstandings with the F-35 (crude aircraft), there is an opportunity to consider Russian aircraft. Anyway, the technique.
                  1. ancient
                    ancient 19 November 2015 10: 23
                    +6
                    Quote: _Vladislav_
                    . The arms market needs to loop back on itself. For the purchase of one such unit inevitably entails the purchase of components, the purchase of weapons, and service — in short, long-term dependence on the supply of Russian weapons (work, services).


                    Yes, but .. just not with the Chinese .... remember the "story" with the Su-30MK wink
                    1. _Vladislav_
                      _Vladislav_ 19 November 2015 11: 03
                      +5
                      Quote: ancient
                      aki yes, but .. just not with the Chinese .... remember the "story" with the Su-30MK

                      Su-30MK (modernized, commercial) is a two-seat attack aircraft intended for export deliveries. I do not see any problems.

                      As I said, the arms market does not tolerate dogmatism. The supply of China's modern weapons is a strategic supply aimed at showing an alternative to potential customers. And our willingness to supply such weapons.

                      PS
                      Suppose you did not deliver Su-35 to China. Then who will you put it to? Yes, no one, because you are afraid and shaking, as if something had not been copied. Accordingly, your plane does not go out, no one knows that you have one at all, and if you know it, nobody cares because nobody buys it from you, and therefore it does not meet modern standards, and therefore such an aircraft nobody needs. Therefore, your treasury is not replenished with money.
                      Here is the psychology of the arms market. It doesn’t matter to everyone that you have the best one, show that they are buying it (that it is in demand), then we will buy it.

                      P.P.S.
                      And if you follow in the wake of your thoughts, then you will continue to trade with Zimbabwe for 20 more years, and you will not enter one serious market.
                  2. padded jacket
                    padded jacket 19 November 2015 11: 18
                    +1
                    Quote: _Vladislav_
                    Definitely sell. Arms market needs to loop back on yourself

                    I fully agree that the sale of the SU-35 to China will not only replenish the budget of our aviation enterprises, but will also push other countries to purchase various weapons from us, besides, this is also an important step towards the country that supported us during the "pressure" on us by the West.
                    Interestingly, does this amount of the contract include training pilots and technicians for spare parts and spare engines, weapons?
                  3. goose
                    goose 19 November 2015 13: 50
                    +4
                    Quote: _Vladislav_
                    And from whom to get? In light of the recent misunderstandings with the F-35 (crude aircraft), there is an opportunity to consider Russian aircraft. Anyway, the technique.

                    It would be fair if the Government were engaged in real production, and stimulated development. This is not there. The Russian Federation is not yet capable of mass production for all comers. Where will they get qualified welders and machine tools, if you need to increase production, say 3 times? Just nowhere. And migrant workers will not help here, it is precisely the skilled working elite that has been brought up for decades, in sufficient quantity, and even in excess, which, in particular, the USSR had in the late 80s, is needed here. It was the same working elite that saved England during World War II. Even in the USA they could not produce a Merlin engine, and British workers could, and not only in London, but throughout the country. Hitlerite Germany owed its stunning successes to a large mass of educated and highly skilled workers whose culture dominated the Kaiser Empire. In Russia, there are only a large number of directors, economists, accountants, lawyers and managers. But there is no productive skilled labor, just like engineers, i.e. the very middle class that they are in the USA, Germany or Sweden, and on which the state relies.
                    1. _Vladislav_
                      _Vladislav_ 19 November 2015 13: 56
                      +2
                      Quote: goose
                      ........ But there is no productive skilled labor force, just like engineers, i.e. the very middle class that they are in the USA, Germany or Sweden, and on which the state relies.

                      Etc.winked cool YOU avatar
                2. VP
                  VP 19 November 2015 09: 57
                  +5
                  Interestingly, what is the practical use of a high rating?

                  None.
                  From what I observe, the easiest way to get ratings is if a person writes in the style of "more of this technique !!!", "why are they selling, you need to yourself !!!", "the Americans can't do anything !!!" government to clean up !!! " etc.
                  The larger the specific gravity of exclamation marks in a message, the more advantages such a post gains for everyone can see right away - writes a super patriot who does not bother with anything superfluous laughing
                  Those. the rating does not allow sorting those who write interestingly from those who write "correctly"
                3. Themi30
                  Themi30 19 November 2015 10: 10
                  +1
                  Some believe that it will become longer, but it's their problem, why is there such a topic to raise? also complain about the cons ... like girls on VKontakte.
                4. The comment was deleted.
                5. The comment was deleted.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. ANTI.KORR.
                ANTI.KORR. 19 November 2015 13: 28
                +7
                Quote: Baikonur
                I noticed

                Eugene, but you’ve also become marshals for three months, and now the rating is already two mashals wink
                By the way, where did the Giant of thoughts go? request

                And now for the article .....
                Before you deliver something, you first need to re-equip your Air Force. Or are the "strategists" again stuck in the eyes of the "dead presidents" commerce?
                In terms of readiness for the T-50 series, there are more questions than answers, so we can consider the Su-35 to be the latest production aircraft in the Russian Federation now, and we are still flying on the 27th ...
            2. ancient
              ancient 19 November 2015 10: 18
              +5
              Quote: Temples
              Blame me for a hair dryer!


              One minus mine!
              I substantiate:
              1. One "high-ranking clown" "- a 5th grade locksmith" has already blurted out .... "this year there will be 3 more on trials, and one of them has already connected to them" belay

              Question .. is that .. "congenital fool "or ...." everywhere "our people" belay

              2. News ... "no hello" .. it is clear that "money must be taken somewhere", and the politeness to play, but ... it's not even that, but that we ourselves are staying for now .. "bare butt".

              "Patrner! Su-35S, and for myself ..." Besovetsky Su-3P upgraded to the level of SM27 " request

              Well, somewhere like this .. if on - the case soldier
              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS 19 November 2015 10: 20
                +5
                Quote: ancient
                One minus mine!

                How long have you been planning, "ancient" grumbler. drinks I've been breaking spears here since 4 in the morning laughing If only it would have helped ... wink
              2. adept666
                adept666 19 November 2015 11: 51
                0
                Patrner! Su-35S, and for myself ... "Besovetsky Su-3P upgraded to the level of SM27"
                Su-35S is not originally an export aircraft for our Air Force. In addition, we have 36 serial boards in the troops (by 2020 there should be 96).

                Well, somewhere like this .. if on - the case.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. Vadim237
            Vadim237 19 November 2015 10: 44
            +2
            T 50 will begin to arrive only by an experienced batch.
          4. Nosgoth
            Nosgoth 19 November 2015 15: 15
            +2
            Read about the number of these for a start.
            The T-50 will not be the backbone of aviation, but a rare machine for "certain" tasks (quantitatively, several times less than the same Raptors in the Pendos).
            Other planes will become massive, the technologies of which will be copied by the "mad printer" 100500 times (like others) and sold all over the world (depriving us of some of the contracts). What's so great about that?
            1. adept666
              adept666 19 November 2015 16: 36
              0
              The T-50 will not be the backbone of aviation, but a rare vehicle for "certain" tasks

              Where does this information come from, if not secret?
        2. bulvas
          bulvas 19 November 2015 09: 17
          +5
          Quote: Semyon Semyonich
          What do gentlemen minus signers disagree with?



          Just gentlemen, the minuscoters hoped to sell their planes, so they are angry that the deal is not theirs

          There is another option - they know how to replenish the budget, but they did not listen ...

        3. The comment was deleted.
        4. Kibalchish
          Kibalchish 19 November 2015 10: 35
          +2
          I agree with Semyon Semenych. The Chinese have long knocked down wedges for the su-35, but they obviously will not be able to copy all the solutions and technologies. Apparently our government decided that it was better to sell and get money than to receive a leak of information through the prom. espionage, which the Chinese also trap.
        5. The comment was deleted.
        6. gjv
          gjv 19 November 2015 10: 41
          +2
          Quote: Semyon Semyonich
          educate about technology transfer. Or maybe you were outraged that they still can't copy the old engines?

          In particular, as Kommersant reported, the slip was due to the fact that, having decided on the number of Su-35s to be purchased, China demanded changes in the appearance of the aircraft: in particular, to equip the cockpit with its own avionics (see Kommersant on May 19 2014). According to a top manager of one of the aircraft industry enterprises, this contract does not imply licensed production of aircraft in China, that is, the customer will receive aircraft ready for operation. Recall that now the Su-35s are only in service with the Russian army: according to the terms of the contract from 2009, the Russian Air Force should receive 48 machines in the period 2012-2015. A new deal for 48 more of these fighters will be closed soon. The production capabilities of the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association make it possible to fulfill all agreements, says a Kommersant source in the aviation industry: "This is a guaranteed capacity utilization for several years."
          Military-technical cooperation between Russia and China is now very active. After the lull of 2006-2010, large arms deals are being concluded more and more often: for example, in 2011 in aviation and aircraft construction the amount of contracts approached $ 1 billion, in 2012 Russia and China signed a major contract worth about $ 700 million for the supply of 140 AL-31F aircraft engines and signed a framework contract for the Amur-1650 diesel-electric submarine (according to experts, its amount is about $ 2 billion). In September 2014, China was the first to buy four divisions of the latest S-400 Triumph air defense system worth at least $ 1,9 billion - this deal brought the total amount of contracts concluded that year to $ 14 billion. Best of all is the level of relations with China in the arms sector Anatoly Isaikin, general director of Rosoboronexport, said in his last interview with Kommersant: "I believe that if we work in the interests of the PRC, then we work in our own interests."
          This deal will significantly increase Russia's arms orders portfolio, Kommersant sources say. Back in 2013, China purchased more than $ 1,8 billion worth of Russian weapons and military equipment (then taking fourth place) and has not dropped out of the list of leading buyers since then.
      2. cniza
        cniza 19 November 2015 07: 51
        11
        Quote: Semen Semenych
        Quote: Vladimir
        . We sell sensitive technologies.

        Where does technology transfer say? They will be picked around, this is their national feature. They still have not really learned how to copy AL-31F ... Although some solutions are stolen in any way.



        We don’t know a lot, of course, we don’t want modern technologies to go to Chinese "partners" and I really want to believe that the contract was drawn up correctly, from the point of view of protecting our interests, ... it was coordinated for three years.
        1. Alexey-74
          Alexey-74 19 November 2015 08: 28
          +1
          Let's hope..... what
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. Alexey-74
        Alexey-74 19 November 2015 08: 26
        +2
        Well, let's hope that DRY will be sold in a truncated version .... as an export. Our army would have had more than 35 ........
      5. veksha50
        veksha50 19 November 2015 09: 54
        +6
        Quote: Semyon Semyonich
        Where does technology transfer say? They will be picked around, this is their national feature.



        Um ... For decades they mass-produced TT pistols and Kalashnikov assault rifles ... So what ???

        As there was a huge difference in quality, it remained ...

        It is one thing to buy ready-made aircraft, and another to buy full technology, a full production cycle, as Indians want ...
      6. Cossack Ermak
        Cossack Ermak 19 November 2015 11: 20
        +1
        It will be as China usually does. Will order 5 pieces. they will refuse the rest of the party. These will be dismantled to the cogs.
        1. KnightRider
          KnightRider 19 November 2015 18: 38
          0
          Quote: Cossack Ermak
          It will be as China usually does. Will order 5 pieces. they will refuse the rest of the party. These will be dismantled to the cogs.

          If they refuse, they will pay a penalty. Yes, and do planes only after receiving an advance payment. The contract did not write tea suckers, all the nuances are written there
      7. YARUSSIAN39
        YARUSSIAN39 19 November 2015 13: 31
        +1
        They are tying everything, do not forget about it, do not underestimate the Chinese
      8. huut
        huut 19 November 2015 14: 08
        +1
        Quote: Semyon Semyonich
        Where does technology transfer say?


        "This is work not only for our aircraft plant, but also for hundreds of enterprises in Russia," Shport said, adding that the contract for the supply of 24 Su-35s is "clean" - it does not imply the sale of a license to China.

        http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2452911
    2. twviewer
      twviewer 19 November 2015 06: 45
      23
      Quote: Vladimir
      We sell sensitive technologies

      Technologies are created to be sold or exchanged later. It is more important here what the exchange took place. If it’s just green papers, then it wasn’t worth it. If this is part of a mutual exchange of technologies, as part of a strategic partnership, then, you must admit, this is another matter.
      1. Vladimyrych
        Vladimyrych 19 November 2015 06: 47
        +5
        Quote: twviewer
        agree

        I do not agree. I do not see an equivalent exchange for military aircraft engines and modern air defense systems. They don’t have anything that cannot be produced in the Russian Federation. In Europe and the United States there is no in China yet.
        1. Semen Semyonitch
          Semen Semyonitch 19 November 2015 07: 14
          15
          Quote: Vladimir
          They don’t have anything that cannot be produced in the Russian Federation. In Europe and the United States there is no in China yet.

          Take off the pink glasses. Electronics and telecommunications .. Just offhand, Huawei and Lenovo aren't talking about anything?
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 19 November 2015 07: 17
            13
            Quote: Semyon Semyonich
            Lenovo is not talking about anything?

            Lenovo signed a contract for the installation of Russian processors "Baikal" on their new smartphones and tablets. Cooperation however. So we can do something. hi
            1. Semen Semyonitch
              Semen Semyonitch 19 November 2015 07: 23
              +5
              hi
              Quote: NEXUS
              So we can do something.

              Something we can, you can't argue ... The key word is "something" ...
              1. iliitchitch
                iliitchitch 19 November 2015 08: 33
                +8
                "Keyword something" ...

                The one who "can do everything" is a C grade and a dropout in life, as a rule. We sold 24 pieces - and they did the right thing. Firstly, the version is probably incomplete, and secondly, do not forget about the economy - about 30-40 "all-wheel drive" 35s will receive the VKS with this money. And the technology will be tyrit everything and always, there will always be a rat for thirty.
          2. Vladimyrych
            Vladimyrych 19 November 2015 07: 42
            +1
            Quote: Semyon Semyonich
            Take off the rose-colored glasses

            Do not use. Maybe even unfortunately ...
            The question is (we and they) have the technology and (or) whether (they or we) can restore the technological process.
            So here we have, you have the listed technologies, but the leaders have no desire, but they have no technologies listed by me and there is a great desire to get hold of them. We can do without them without problems. They too can but problems without us - a car.
        2. twviewer
          twviewer 19 November 2015 07: 20
          12
          Quote: Vladimir
          In Europe and the USA while there is no in China.

          please joke? Yes, you look at the level of industry in Europe, the USA and China and compare with ours. The nomenclature of which we simply don’t get tired of listing.
        3. Amurets
          Amurets 19 November 2015 07: 29
          12
          Quote: Vladimir
          Quote: twviewer
          agree

          I do not agree. I do not see an equivalent exchange for military aircraft engines and modern air defense systems. They don’t have anything that cannot be produced in the Russian Federation. In Europe and the United States there is no in China yet.

          In China, more than 90% of microchips for world electronics are produced, which are so lacking for us. Nobody has yet learned how to produce engines for aircraft developed in the Lyulka Design Bureau. Even after performing spectral analysis, neither the Americans, the Germans, nor the Chinese were able to make bearings and vanes gas turbines. And deliveries of MTU and MB engines for ships will not hinder us. RIGHT NEXUS, saying that no one will sell them technology, but there are subtleties of production. Even having licenses for production and technological support, in Russia they could not organize production reliable, small-sized turbochargers for automotive ICEs.
          1. Vladimyrych
            Vladimyrych 19 November 2015 08: 30
            +5
            You and not only you can continue to fantasize as much as you want. 10-15 years will pass and you will be surprised that China will somehow unexpectedly take our place in the arms market with our (though former) products. It is with those that we are now so frenzied with them to bargain with.
            1. Amurets
              Amurets 19 November 2015 09: 25
              +5
              I’ve lived almost a kilometer from China. Through Amur, the city of Heihe. Yes, China is developing, I will not argue, but only at the expense of Western technologies. You look at what technologies Volvo, Jaguar, Lotus companies have, I have listed not all, but these are firms , in which the Chinese have from a blocking to a controlling stake. It is difficult to surprise me for the simple reason that everything new is completely legal on the other side.
        4. clidon
          clidon 19 November 2015 08: 21
          +4
          The Chinese have a lot of other things that we really need - loans, electronics, machines, a good attitude towards us ...
        5. veksha50
          veksha50 19 November 2015 10: 05
          +3
          Quote: Vladimir
          I do not agree. I do not see an equivalent exchange on military aircraft engines and state-of-the-art air defense systems.


          Hmm ... An equivalent exchange is manifested even in the repeated support by China of Russia's positions in the UN on many issues ...
      2. NEXUS
        NEXUS 19 November 2015 06: 49
        10
        Quote: twviewer
        Technologies are created to be sold or exchanged later

        Nobody will sell the technology to them. But the supply of some units can be discussed. The Chinese have agreed to supply engines for the rook boats instead of the German ones, which are made under a German license. hi
        1. twviewer
          twviewer 19 November 2015 08: 18
          0
          Quote: NEXUS
          Nobody will sell technology to them.

          In its pure form, probably not, but some part can be investigated and adopted.
          It would be more correct not to be limited to individual transactions, but to link them in a complex manner. The benefits of the fatherland for hi
      3. Basarev
        Basarev 19 November 2015 06: 49
        10
        And for some reason it seems to me that we are just buying verbal loyalty. For only one promise not to harm, we will give up the planes and technology. It will be like in the USSR: a lot of dough and technologies were poured, but as soon as the USSR became ill - immediately all these allies instantly repainted.
        1. Evgeniy667b
          Evgeniy667b 19 November 2015 06: 59
          -3
          Namely, the Russian Federation is trying to appease the Middle Kingdom, asking for its strategic interests. What can I say, the mind has left the heads of our leadership !!! Nothing !!!
          they sold how much to the Azerbaijanis, but they have already turned their backs - the planes are not letting in. (while "Ruslan").
          1. Amurets
            Amurets 19 November 2015 13: 12
            +2
            Quote: Evgeniy667b
            The Russian Federation is trying to appease the Middle Kingdom, asking for its strategic interests.

            I'm already tired of citing the words from the Book "Red Dragon" about the Navy and Strategic Forces of China. It clearly says: Russia is a Strategic Shield protecting the PRC from the northern direction and the destruction of this shield will lead to the death of the PRC. Firing missiles from the territory of the Arctic Ocean, without permission Russia is a pretext for war. Therefore, it is not profitable for China to quarrel with Russia. The capture of Siberia and the Far East by China automatically opens the underbelly of China. Do not look for self-interest where it does not exist. Look for the book on the Internet, for some reason my link does not work.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm 19 November 2015 10: 47
          +1
          Quote: Basarev
          For only one promise not to harm, we will give up the planes and technology.

          Airplanes are sold for quite decent money.
          Quote: Basarev
          however, as soon as the USSR became ill - immediately all these allies suddenly repainted.

          In the harsh 90s, it was Chinese and Indian orders that allowed Sukhoi Corporation to survive, and partially saved Yakovlev Design Bureau, and, accordingly, engine builders.
      4. veksha50
        veksha50 19 November 2015 10: 03
        +3
        Quote: twviewer
        Technologies are created to be sold or exchanged later.


        I would like to add - a strange situation in the comments ... We shout that we are a raw materials appendage of the West and we have nothing to sell it except minerals ... But as soon as there is a conversation about the sale of technology, they also greet with hostility ...

        And what, do we have such civil technologies that the West is ready to buy with pleasure ???
        There is something, I do not argue, but this is a minuscule ... For the most part, the latest technologies in any (!!!) more or less developed state come to a citizen from the OPK-VPK ...

        And who is so sure that the newest technologies, especially those concerning military equipment and weapons, will be sold without a corresponding "cut" ???
    3. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 19 November 2015 07: 26
      21
      Quote: Vladimir
      Bad ... We sell sensitive technologies

      You’re strange people. As soon as an article appears that someone has signed a contract for the purchase of American or French planes, you’ll immediately yell -And why didn’t they order from us.
      They ordered from us, so it’s bad for you.
      Sometimes some people want to make a craniotomy and see if there are brains.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 19 November 2015 07: 36
        +9
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        Sometimes some people want to make a craniotomy and see if there are brains.

        You can not conduct an experiment: as in a joke, there are no brains, only languages.
      2. The lead
        The lead 19 November 2015 07: 40
        +3
        It is one thing to sell advanced, high-tech technology to a banana republic that does not have its own aviation industry, which can compete with ours in the future. It is another thing to sell to China, with its imperial ambitions, which we will face sooner or later. this process.
      3. Bongo
        Bongo 19 November 2015 07: 48
        12
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        You’re strange people. As soon as an article appears that someone has signed a contract for the purchase of American or French planes, you’ll immediately yell -And why didn’t they order from us.

        Hello Sasha! Agree, there is a huge difference when selling Superjets and Su-35s? "Superjets", which, by the way, the Chinese are in no hurry to buy, will not be turned against us. However, in the PRC they managed to convert the Tu-154 purchased from us into electronic reconnaissance aircraft. And now these "carcasses" (pictured) are regularly monitored along our borders.
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 19 November 2015 07: 55
          +5
          Quote: Bongo
          Agree, there is a huge difference when selling Superjets and Su-35s? "

          Hello, Sergey! There is a difference, but now it does not play a big role. In the 90s, when the Chinese women came to KNAAPO, they were ready to put whores to them, if only they bought something. All SU 30 were exported, nothing to themselves. That was really a problem, but the factory survived due to this. Now we also need money will be sold, and so it was clear.
          Quote: Bongo
          ... And now these "carcasses" (pictured) are regularly monitored along our borders.

          They always flew there from the beginning of 90x, well, not our TUSHKI, but in general.
          1. Bongo
            Bongo 19 November 2015 08: 01
            +9
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            All 30 control systems were exported, nothing was done. This was really a problem, but the plant survived due to this. Now we also need money, they will sell it, and so it was clear.

            You forgot to add how it ended. Subsequently, they did not give a damn about all previously concluded agreements and began to build aircraft themselves without a license.
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            They always flew there from the beginning of 90x, well, not our TUSHKI, but in general.

            Here you are not quite right. I could develop this topic strongly, but for a number of reasons I will not. It was the aircraft based on our Tu-154 that became the first truly effective Chinese electronic reconnaissance vehicles. These "carcasses" of blood to the radar operators and air defense crews were curtailed a lot.
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 19 November 2015 08: 13
              +1
              Quote: Bongo
              . Subsequently, they did not give a damn about all previously concluded agreements and began to build aircraft themselves without a license.

              They build everything like that, everything that can be licked, everything licked.
              And probably already make the glider looks very similar to the T 50.
              Quote: Bongo
              These "carcasses" of blood to the radar operators and air defense crews were curtailed a lot.

              Perhaps, but here's the plus, they will learn how to counteract.
              1. twviewer
                twviewer 19 November 2015 08: 20
                +2
                Quote: Alexander Romanov
                Perhaps, but here's the plus, they will learn how to counteract.

                And on the departures of training goals, again, savings :)
            2. tomket
              tomket 19 November 2015 08: 47
              +1
              Quote: Bongo
              You forgot to add how it ended. Subsequently, they did not give a damn about all previously concluded agreements and began to build aircraft themselves without a license.

              Actually, it’s like they sold our license to them (I refer to M.Z. Yuryev who was in that commission) and they wanted to sell the engine license, but the Chinese decided to save a little here (they bought a couple of regiments and plus spare engines, they decided something like that they’ll figure it out), but ours didn’t insist on selling.
        2. mvg
          mvg 19 November 2015 23: 51
          0
          Damn the Chinese superjets, if they make its analogue (at the same time in today's topics it is). No worse and cheaper, and they don’t even order komlektuha around the world. They bought Tu-154 while there was no own plane of this class. Now flies C919 (analogue of MS-21) and the analogue of the transporter Il-76 (already 2 copies at least).
          Bongo, You are one of the most-most professionals on the site, in aircraft and weapons. You yourself understand perfectly well why such posts?
          And at the same time, the deal is more political than commercial, just like with Triumph. We give a "favor" for "abstained"
      4. FID
        FID 19 November 2015 11: 16
        +5
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        see if there are brains

        And if so, what are they thinking ... Maybe about food ???
    4. Alex_Rarog
      Alex_Rarog 19 November 2015 07: 55
      0
      I hope that deliveries will begin no earlier than 2150))
      1. Grenader
        Grenader 19 November 2015 08: 39
        0
        China wants to buy aircraft for more than our MO:
        2016 - 0309-0318 for the RF Ministry of Defense, 0319-0402 for the PRC, 0403-0406 - "other g / p" ("free slot" for an export contract that has not yet been concluded, probably with Pakistan or Indonesia).
        2017 - 0407-0416 for the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 0417-0506 for the PRC, 0507-0510 - other exports.
        2018 - 0511-0520 for the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 0601-0610 for the PRC, 0611-0614 - other exports.
        2019 - 0615-0704 for the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 0705-0712 for export.
        2020 - 0713-0802 for the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, 0803-0810 for export.
    5. Sigismund
      Sigismund 19 November 2015 08: 31
      0
      I agree with Vladimirovich. Apart from one thing, this is a distant "perspective".
    6. Yuriy3005
      Yuriy3005 19 November 2015 08: 35
      +4
      For such statements, you must at least familiarize yourself with the contract. Next, you need to know the timing of the start of production and delivery of aircraft to China, the first aircraft will begin to arrive in China at best in 2017. While they will master them, until they disassemble, assemble and can learn something, we will already have in the T-50 series (I really hope so).
      Selling the S-400 and Su-35 systems to China and India, we provide our own factories, as well as bring and implement advanced weapons systems with their money. Everything is logical
    7. sherp2015
      sherp2015 19 November 2015 08: 42
      +2
      Quote: Vladimir
      Bad ... We sell sensitive technologies. It is not yet known how it comes down on the arms market and on the security of our country ...


      For 5 they will pay, and after copying they will release their own, some kind of Wan Zhui
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 19 November 2015 08: 48
        +7
        Quote: sherp2015
        For 5 they will pay, and after copying they will release their own, some kind of Wan Zhui

        I’ll tell you so that you understand ... try to copy a picture of Leonardo da Vinci Monna Lisa and copy it for millions, so that the whole world recognizes your work as a work of art the same as Leonardo's. Or copy the Stradevari violin, even knowing what kind of wood was used and calculating all the key sizes and parameters. Something so far, no one has succeeded. hi
        1. sherp2015
          sherp2015 19 November 2015 09: 06
          0
          Quote: NEXUS
          I’ll tell you so that you understand ...


          You can say what you want. Only the Kitaezs did not ditch their industry as we have in Russia, but on the contrary increased their capacities and specialists in factories with design bureaus work tirelessly day and night ...
          Do not hesitate to do it after a while.
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 19 November 2015 09: 12
            +4
            Quote: sherp2015
            Do not hesitate to do it after a while.

            And who doubts that? laughing Only a lag of 30 years is not so easy to overcome. As long as they are brought up and invented by a world-class fighter who would compete on equal terms with our or Amer’s cars, we and the adversary will already build 6th generation fighters. And this is not bravado, but a fact. Yes, we have reduced the gap very much to the Chinese, which at the beginning was 50-60 years, but this does not mean that we will push them ahead of us. But to understand and produce technologies is not as easy as you think. hi
            1. Falcon
              Falcon 19 November 2015 13: 50
              +5
              Quote: NEXUS
              Only the lag in the 30 years is not so easy to overcome. As long as they bring and invent, they will be a world-class fighter that would compete on equal terms with our or Amer’s cars


              Well, you bend of course. I don’t think for 30 years ... Look at their fleet - there is already a lot to be bought for us. Destroyers are quite attractive + paratroopers.

              Quote: NEXUS
              we and the adversary will already build 6 generation fighters. And this is not bravado, but a fact.


              We should get to 5 first.

              Our press has a very one-sided approach to this issue.

              5 Chinese generation at the same level of readiness as ours. I will not discuss the propaganda Old - that they are far from the fifth and we have a cross. Of there is no data - but in appearance both that and that are not bad.

              And why not take a couple of dozen Su-35. Experience adopted - see what how.

              I would not mind if ours bought pcs. 10 F-35. Why not explore a live competitor then! That's just not real it.

              Do not misunderstand me! Just suggest looking at the whole picture. In the English-language media, our 5s are no less questionable than the Chinese.

              And 6 is already practically there. The first flights were ... True at BAE

              1. Amurets
                Amurets 19 November 2015 15: 36
                +4
                Quote: Falcon
                We should get to 5 first.

                Cyril! You don’t have to be so pissimonious. Never did the press either have or print more than what is in the advertising leaflets. Print more, at best they will give you a hat. And what is shown in the photo, I saw a similar article in the article about Edwards Aviation Nevada wilderness. Jager R-13 and Jäger R-60 fighters of the German Luftwaffe 1944 similar in design. Description and photo in books: Shunkov. Jet aircraft of the Third Reich, Unusual weapons of the Third Reich, Miracle weapon of the 3rd Reich. Read all comments carefully and just make the right conclusion. The Chinese may build ship gas turbines, but there are no aircraft of the latest generations that require new technologies and new materials, because in the 90s in Russia they still managed to maintain the production of special steels and heat-resistant materials. we would not save only aviation, but also rocket propulsion.
                1. Falcon
                  Falcon 19 November 2015 16: 04
                  +4
                  Quote: Amurets
                  but aviation of the last generations, requiring new technologies and new materials, no.


                  No doubt about it. Still buying turbine blades for their Al-31.

                  So I do not mean that they are better. It's just that they are no longer the "little brother" as they used to be. Should not be underestimated.
                  1. Amurets
                    Amurets 20 November 2015 02: 10
                    +1
                    Kirill! Nobody wants to understand that China has never been a "little brother." Believe me, these are cunning, calculating people, fortunately, not militant. I will not quote the decisions of the CCP and the National People's Congress of ten years ago. Do not think that ancient archive. Then, on the eve of the Summer Olympics in Beijing, the Strategic Program for the Development of China was adopted. And it is being implemented. And we see it. Taking into account those 5 economic zones that were created in the 80s, now large blocks of shares of well-known foreign firms. Not for the sake of profit, but for the sake of access to the latest foreign technologies. You admire the Chinese Navy, and this is a visible result of old decisions. And the main decree of those congresses: Chinese in quality and technology should be the best in the world. That is why they forget .And the materials can be found in the decisions of these congresses.
              2. NEXUS
                NEXUS 19 November 2015 16: 46
                +5
                Quote: Falcon
                Well, you bend of course. I don’t think for 30 years ... Look at their fleet - there is already a lot to be bought for us. Destroyers are quite attractive + paratroopers.

                I spoke specifically about fighters. The Chinese have a noble fleet, for a long time they have been producing almost everything themselves. But tell me, as a pilot, is a Chinese-made Chengdu J-20 engine at least somewhat close to TTX in comparison with our AL-41F1 engine?
                Quote: Falcon
                We should get to 5 first.

                We’ll get there, we won’t go anywhere. Either we will scratch our heads, or we will hurry our competitors and adversary. And you would have more optimism wink
                Quote: Falcon
                Chinese 5th generation at the same level of readiness as ours.

                On that, they are on that, but one of these days it seems like one fell ... I’m not saying gloating for the sake of it, but I talked about the current. But you understand that any fighter is primarily an engine ... what engine, such an airplane.
                Quote: Falcon
                I would not mind if ours bought pcs. 10 F-35. Why not explore a live competitor then!

                Yes, one would be enough wink At least I got to know where the dog rummaged so that the terms are being debugged all the time.
                Quote: Falcon
                And 6 is already practically there. The first flights were ... True at BAE

                This is not quite the 6th generation, because on a par with the same Raptor or PAK FA, this heavy strike UAV can’t fight in an air battle so far. By the way, are the Yak-130 going to make the UAV strike, than this isn’t an option? as is the Clipper project.
                Well, we’ll see in general. Excuse me, I don’t know what to call you.
                Best regards hi
                1. Falcon
                  Falcon 19 November 2015 22: 00
                  0
                  Quote: NEXUS
                  Is the Chinese-made Chengdu J-20 engine at least somehow close in TTX to our AL-41F1 engine?


                  Well, I'm not a pilot. WS-10 - no, it's al-31. WS-15 - no one knows. But at least it should be better than Al-31. Problems with the turbine blades - of course, no one has canceled. But who thought 1 years ago about Ballistic RCC?

                  Al-41F1 aka ed.117 not quite Al-41. I say more by rumors, but Al-41 was more with a large number of rotors and with a variable degree of bypass.
                  And the publisher 117 is the development of Al-31. By the way, he does not have such a high figure for after-thrust, unlike adversaries.

                  Quote: NEXUS
                  And you would have more optimism

                  Maybe you're right. But he should be healthy, and not ury optimism.

                  Quote: NEXUS
                  that any fighter is primarily an engine ...


                  Well, d-30f6 more powerful ed117 at maximum. So, is Mig-31 better than Su-35? I would bet on Su.

                  Quote: NEXUS
                  This is not quite the 6 generation, as this heavy strike UAV cannot fight in the air battle on equal terms with the same Raptor or PAK FA. By the way, the Yak-130 are going to make UAVs strike, what is not an option?


                  Not yet. But the drummer is the 6-th generation. Yak-130 UAVs are going to be done for a long time. Not so easy - there are few Wishlist. We would also have to create RQ-9.
                  BAE is still a long way from autonomous
                  1. NEXUS
                    NEXUS 20 November 2015 02: 01
                    +2
                    Quote: Falcon
                    But at least it should be better than Al-31.

                    It’s very controversial ... we have a history of creating engines and a school, and the Chinese have only an attempt to drop into someone else's ridge.
                    Quote: Falcon
                    And what, the MiG-31 is better than the Su-35? I would bet on Su.

                    You compare the incomparable. MIG-31 interceptor sharpened to intercept KR, and SU-35-fighter to conquer the sky ... different tasks and different classes of machines.
                    Quote: Falcon
                    But the drummer is the 6th generation.

                    Rather, the first one, maybe before him there were no serious strikers ... the main task is reconnaissance and observation.
                    Quote: Falcon
                    The Yak-130 UAVs are going to be done for a long time. Not so easy - there are few Wishlist.

                    I think, in the light of recent events, they will take up this issue very tightly.

                    And yet ... if the Chinese had a good engine, they would not have ordered two in addition to our fighters.
                    Best regards hi
                    1. Falcon
                      Falcon 20 November 2015 08: 36
                      0
                      Quote: NEXUS
                      It’s very controversial ... we have a history of creating engines and a school, and the Chinese have only an attempt to drop into someone else's ridge.


                      Well, we were in the same position. Our first engines were copies of the western ones.

                      Quote: NEXUS
                      You compare the incomparable. MIG-31 interceptor sharpened to intercept KR, and SU-35-fighter to conquer the sky ... different tasks and different classes of machines.


                      You compare engines. I'm talking about the fact that the engine has long been not the most important. More precisely, one of the components. Of the many. More importantly, powerful electronics.

                      Quote: NEXUS
                      Rather than the first, maybe before him there were no serious drummers ...


                      1 is IL-2.

                      Quote: NEXUS
                      And yet ... if the Chinese had a good engine, they would not have ordered two in addition to our fighters.


                      No, that's not it. The engine resource is less than the aircraft resource. There are not enough two for the full life cycle.
    8. Jurkovs
      Jurkovs 19 November 2015 09: 00
      +2
      Quote: Vladimir
      Bad ...

      It is better that China butts the United States in the South China Sea than the United States bothers us in Syria.
    9. VP
      VP 19 November 2015 09: 21
      0
      Which ones?
    10. adept666
      adept666 19 November 2015 11: 25
      +2
      Bad ...

      What is bad? Su-35 (Su-27M), and then Su-35S, is an initiative development of Sukhoi Design Bureau specially oriented for export orders (instead of Su-30 MKI / SM)! It was not planned at all in the Russian Air Force, but the PAKFA program’s lag of 1,5 years (including the 2008 crisis - financial problems), the aggravation of the international situation against the background of 2008 (Georgia-South Ossetia) influenced the strategy of promoting this remarkable cars. Modern aircraft were needed much earlier than 2014 (the year of planning the first installation batches of PAKFA) and then he just fell into the courtyard. Moreover, this decision killed several birds with one stone at once 1: pilots will gain experience working on modern machines (this is almost the 5th generation) 2: saturation of the aerospace forces with new modern multifunctional machines (improving defense capability), which in turn should play on export contracts, etc. to. everyone knows that it’s better to buy what the air forces of the exporter’s country use. 3: to sell not a crude car (and according to the results of the first year of operation, the car was modified and significantly), but an already optimized board, and this is a reputation that you can’t buy with any money. 4: A large series (96 machines for MO) - a more interesting price for potential buyers (one of the factors of competition) initially not cheap aircraft. 5: Bring the buyer to their technology, which is difficult to copy, but which are critical.
    11. vladimir_krm
      vladimir_krm 19 November 2015 15: 38
      0
      "China demanded changes in the appearance of the aircraft: in particular, to equip the cockpit with its own avionics (see Kommersant, May 19, 2014). According to a top manager of one of the aviation enterprises, this contract does not imply the licensed production of aircraft in the PRC. , that is, the customer will receive aircraft ready for operation. "

      In addition, Russia is now buying from China marine diesel engines for the military-industrial complex, which Germany refused to supply. China does not spare "sensitive technologies" for the Russian Federation?
      1. adept666
        adept666 19 November 2015 16: 33
        0
        In addition, Russia is now buying from China marine diesel engines for the military-industrial complex, which Germany refused to supply. China does not spare "sensitive technologies" for the Russian Federation?
        Firstly, Chinese marine diesel engines are the same German, but licensed, i.e. this is not their technology. Secondly, the Chinese are well aware that we can do this dviglo on our own and there is nothing innovative for us there, the problem is that it takes time to master the production of high-speed diesel engines, but it just doesn’t, because the hulls are already formed and must be installed GEM, if you wait 2-3 years will be colossal downtime. Therefore, in this case, the example is not correct. And then what do we need Chinese diesel engines for? We have in our hands (on ships) real German originals for that matter. wink
        1. vladimir_krm
          vladimir_krm 20 November 2015 12: 42
          0
          With diesels - I agree. And with the risk to technology - no. The 35th outlines are not much different from the Su-27, small differences are caught (and copied) at exhibitions, without any purchases. Onboard equipment they ask to put their own. But copying engines without technology transfer will fail.

          Threat. Sometime in the 70s, our scientists got an aviation block of membrane boxes from France (the one that connects to the LDPE). The membranes are half as much as ours, and the error is less, the hysteresis is less, etc. They decoded the metal by spectral analysis, made a copy, but did not get the result: in addition, you need to know the processing, hardening modes ... The engine is immeasurably more complex than the membrane ...
          1. adept666
            adept666 22 November 2015 16: 17
            0
            The 35th outlines are not much different from the Su-27, small differences are caught (and copied) at exhibitions
            The resemblance is deceptive. These two machines have different degrees of static instability, which makes their glider fundamentally different.
            Onboard equipment they ask to put their own.
            In general, there are a lot of questions. The avionics of the Su-35S is very seriously integrated into the digital computer, and it, in turn, controls the same EMDS. Maybe the radars will deliver them and the code will be corrected (so that their type of missiles can be used). Although Irbis, I think it would be very interesting to the Chinese (the whole question is how difficult it is to learn how to work with Chinese missiles and the price of such an upgrade)
  2. V.ic
    V.ic 19 November 2015 06: 36
    +4
    A Chinese general / colonel in a blue uniform, however, cannot walk as a combatant, "mandarin". When will we expect the next "J- ??" our Su-35?
    1. SAM 5
      SAM 5 19 November 2015 06: 39
      +6
      When will we expect the next "J- ??" our Su-35?

      You won’t have to wait long.
    2. GRAY
      GRAY 19 November 2015 07: 32
      +2
      Quote: V.ic
      A Chinese general / colonel in a blue uniform, however, cannot walk as a combatant, "mandarin". When will we expect the next "J- ??" our Su-35?

      The Su-35 is a modernized Su-27, and the Su-27 has been in service with them since 1992.
      Their, please note, they also produced a LICENSE copy of this aircraft (Shenyang J-11), but it didn’t work out very well and they abandoned this business.
      And they allegedly made an analogue of the Su-35 (J-16) - they were going to push them for export, though for some reason they decided to purchase Russian-made aircraft for themselves. lol
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 19 November 2015 07: 39
        +3
        Quote: GRAY

        Su-35 is a modernized Su-27

        The upgraded SU 27 is SU27 SM3
        1. GRAY
          GRAY 19 November 2015 08: 12
          +3
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          The upgraded SU 27 is SU27 SM3


          SU27 SM3 - well, and how does it differ from the Su-35?
          The Su-35 has other engines with a deviating thrust vector and a radar better - that's it, the differences are over.
          The platform for these machines is common, it cannot be said that these are different planes.
          1. adept666
            adept666 19 November 2015 13: 18
            +2
            The Su-35 has other engines with a deviating thrust vector and a radar better - that's it, the differences are over.
            Not just a radar, but avionics in general, the glider is also different (both in materials and in design).
            The platform for these machines is common, it cannot be said that these are different planes.
            Can.
  3. Sirocco
    Sirocco 19 November 2015 06: 38
    +4
    Lego for China. Now Chinese collectors are rubbing handles, in anticipation of new work on the dismantling of a new Russian aircraft. laughing I think it will be so. Although you can’t get away from it, sooner or later, they will still get it and take it apart.
    A question for experts, how is China doing with engine building, is there a change?
    1. Starover_Z
      Starover_Z 19 November 2015 06: 44
      +4
      Quote: Sirocco
      A question for experts, how is China doing with engine building, is there a change?

      Not a connoisseur, but ... knowing the Chinese on topics I write -
      With the disassembly of devices, the Chinese are doing fine,
      In the construction of new, to our happiness, it does not matter.
      1. Sirocco
        Sirocco 19 November 2015 06: 52
        +2
        Quote: Starover_Z
        With the disassembly of devices, the Chinese are doing fine,
        In the construction of new, to our happiness, it does not matter.

        This is known and discussed more than once. I am afraid with their pressure and experience, they will try to steal technology, production, engines, (blades) As in the case of Armata, on which landings for espionage have already gone.
    2. Sirocco
      Sirocco 19 November 2015 06: 48
      +1
      Again Baba Yaga appeared against. With what you dear grandmother do not agree?)))) Justify your minus)))))))))))))
  4. .Strannik.
    .Strannik. 19 November 2015 06: 39
    -9
    Soon, the Chinese dragon will stop at nothing to regain its Siberian and eastern territories ....
    1. Eugene-Eugene
      Eugene-Eugene 19 November 2015 06: 51
      +7
      Yes, we heard: Putin was soon overthrown, the Crimea itself will return to 404, fat will be distributed free of charge to true svidomits. So what about the bacon? Got your dose, piggy?
    2. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 19 November 2015 07: 30
      +7
      Quote: .Strannik.
      Soon, the Chinese dragon will stop at nothing to regain its Siberian and eastern territories ....

      They have already been seized from us, I’m sitting in Komsomolsk, here are ten Chinese people for one Russian. The people are afraid of getting out of the house.
      So that's it, the Chinese women are breaking in the door, calling the police, last hope crying the police for some reason respond to the Chinese belay ..... people-HELP
      1. Semen Semyonitch
        Semen Semyonitch 19 November 2015 18: 25
        0
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        the police for some reason respond to the Chinese

        Maybe they asked in Chinese? what
    3. Amurets
      Amurets 19 November 2015 07: 44
      +6
      Quote: .Strannik.
      Soon, the Chinese dragon will stop at nothing to regain its Siberian and eastern territories ....

      Question? Why do they need them? But ours are happy to buy apartments on the other side, it’s cheaper to manage, one inconvenience is crossing. I don’t understand, you don’t live in the Far East, on the border with China, but judge the dangers, the seizure of territories and the devil still knows what. And we have lived here all our life and don’t know anything. Have you at least read the demarcation agreement? Not too lazy to poke a search engine?
    4. Valenok
      Valenok 19 November 2015 14: 14
      0
      The Chinai dragon (only Russians call them Chinese) has already grabbed the fattest lands of the Chinese. The Russians got what the Chinai could not "digest" in their time. So their stigma has long been in the gun. And they are unlikely to want to give up the role assigned to them by the current historical "science". After all, how nice it is to be listed as builders of videoconferencing, inventors of paper and gunpowder, etc. Not a bad addition to a third of the territory of the current China ...
      The very same Chinese who died, whatever one may say, are white people. Our ancestors. And if it comes to clarifying land ownership, the Russians will have to abandon ignoring this fact (it will cease to be profitable), and the Chinayans, accordingly, will have nothing to cover.
      How can they hide it. The pyramids were planted with bushes, all the excavations were classified ...
      Here it is, your Chinese Great Khan Khubilai and Marco Polo.
    5. Semen Semyonitch
      Semen Semyonitch 19 November 2015 18: 24
      0
      Quote: .Strannik.
      regain their Siberian and eastern territories ....

      Wanderer, from the word strange?
  5. venaya
    venaya 19 November 2015 06: 39
    +1
    It is hoped that the issues related to intellectual property have at least been resolved. Perhaps it’s not profitable for the Chinese to put us down, while we pray only to God.
  6. ProtectRusOrDie
    ProtectRusOrDie 19 November 2015 06: 41
    +8
    Eheheh ..... The price of friendship with China is great ....
    Intellectually, I understand that cooperation with China on the plus points more than covers the "loss" of the SU-35 - one xher cuts like a living.

    It seems that this means that PAK FA is very close.

    Patriots bow.
    1. Vadim Zhivov
      Vadim Zhivov 19 November 2015 06: 49
      +3
      I am a patriot and do not hide it ... From me +++ It is a shame for me for the Power ... hi
      1. sherp2015
        sherp2015 19 November 2015 09: 11
        0
        Quote: VadimLives
        I feel sorry for the Power ...


        Evil takes!
  7. Mikhail m
    Mikhail m 19 November 2015 06: 42
    +2
    Do not be sad, comrades. The aircraft itself does not yet know how to manufacture. From disassembling and seeing how and what is made of, to reproducing production technology, a huge distance is. Not at stools we already live. No wonder the contract has been concluded for so long.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. SAM 5
      SAM 5 19 November 2015 06: 55
      -1
      before reproduction of production technology, a huge distance.

      Behind them will not rust. Soon they will succeed.
    3. Private Starley
      Private Starley 19 November 2015 07: 20
      0
      as in another branch on VO it was already written about this ...
      http://topwar.ru/37965-kitay-nachal-pechatat-na-3d-printere-voennye-samolety.htm
      l

      "... now the process of copying and developing new military equipment by Chinese manufacturers will become even easier and faster. It is enough to disassemble a foreign sample. Using a 3D scanner, make digital models of complex parts, and then without introducing a complex technology for their production in the usual way, just print details on an industrial 3D printer .... "

      so there are a lot of questions ...
      1. viktor_ui
        viktor_ui 19 November 2015 08: 06
        +4
        ordinary starley - So at this stage, you can accurately copy ONLY the EXTERNAL DUPLICATE of the product ... but how much the "physical and chemical" parameters of this DUPLICATE will differ from the ORIGINAL is a big question. Performance characteristics of products hang in the plane not only in the "outer contours", but have already migrated a long time ago to the level of molecular and atomic design with all the accompanying technologies drinks .
      2. NEXUS
        NEXUS 19 November 2015 08: 13
        +4
        Quote: Private Starley
        "... now the process of copying and developing new military equipment by Chinese manufacturers will become even easier and faster. It is enough to disassemble a foreign sample.

        And the micro composition of the alloys you also get a 3D printer? M
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 19 November 2015 10: 10
          +2
          Earlier, the Chinese insisted that included
          with each aircraft they were supplied with three more (!) spare
          motor. This is a disassembly-assembly for copying.
          I don’t know what was closed in this contract.
          Cracking manufacturing technology is, of course, harder than
          copy the form. There are two ways: 1) "method of enumerating options" -
          change the conditions of hardening, annealing, etc., until the required
          quality.
          2) "method of buying a specialist" - find a senior technologist from a given
          factory, they offer him a salary for a couple of years 100 times higher than him
          retirement, and he himself tells everything that he remembers.
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 19 November 2015 10: 18
            +2
            Quote: voyaka uh
            1) "method of enumerating options" -
            change the conditions of hardening, annealing, etc., until the required
            quality.

            Have you seen that blade? In addition to the alloy itself, the shape itself has been calculated and verified to a fraction of a micron. And the Russian method, "by typing", does not work here. laughing
            And about buying a retired specialist ... but it's okay that such specialists are "restricted to travel abroad" under a government secret subscription for 50 years?
            1. corporal
              corporal 19 November 2015 10: 48
              +1
              Quote: NEXUS
              In addition to the alloy itself, the shape itself has been calculated and verified to fractions of a micron. And the Russian method, "by typing", does not work here.

              Here is just a scan of geometry, now the trickiest thing.
              Quote: NEXUS
              "restricted to travel" under a nondisclosure agreement

              And vigil for everyone around the clock lol
              After retiring, he wants for his children a better share, and .... will provide.
              1. NEXUS
                NEXUS 19 November 2015 17: 03
                +1
                Quote: Corporal
                Here is just a scan of geometry, now the trickiest thing.

                I repeat, since they didn’t understand ... where do you get the chemical composition of the alloy? Or have blades gathered from luminium to fight? laughing And there, by the way, more than 2000 degrees in the nozzle then. hi
                1. adept666
                  adept666 19 November 2015 17: 26
                  0
                  I repeat, since they did not understand ... the chemical composition of the alloy where to get
                  There are a lot of ways to determine the detailed chemical composition of a product and the problem with copying the elements of the "hot part" is far from that.
            2. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 19 November 2015 12: 22
              +1
              "by typing" does not work here "///

              And how did metallurgy develop?
              brute force method. There is still no complete theory.
              Even with the advent of fast spectral analyzes and atomic microscopes.
              "The method of enumerating options" is not a "typing method",
              a series of parallel experiments on a certain logic.
              So the Japanese, who started in the 50s with the terrifying quality of steels and alloys,
              came to the highest quality standards just by enumerating options.
              I think the Chinese will do the same. Patience they do not borrow, money and engineers - in bulk.
              1. Amurets
                Amurets 19 November 2015 13: 44
                +1
                Quote: voyaka uh
                So the Japanese, who started in the 50s with the terrifying quality of steels and alloys,
                came to the highest quality standards just by enumerating options.

                The Japanese made excellent steels before the war. Just after the defeat in World War II, Japan lost its sources of raw materials, and during the period of recovery of the industry, reinforcing steels were more needed, and something else than high alloy steels. Judging by your comments, you are well versed in materials science. Perhaps you know that damask steel is low-grade steel, brought to the ideal by special methods of forging, hardening and finishing in weapons, but it is no longer suitable for anything. At the same time, Damascus steel gave direction to composites. You are special and you will understand what I mean.
              2. NEXUS
                NEXUS 19 November 2015 17: 11
                +3
                Quote: voyaka uh
                "The method of enumerating options" is not a "typing method",

                What is it? laughing At one time, Lyulka created a domestic engine ... but the blades quickly went out of order. And then he went with the Soviet delegations, in which Tupolev was, and the other bright heads of our aircraft industry, (correct someone, if not accuracy) not to England, not to Germany (I don’t remember, but not the point) ... and Cradle in the shop where these same blades were made, walked in soft slippers. laughing And then we brought home the shavings of this alloy, which adhered to the soles of the slippers. So the secret of the alloy of the shoulder blades was unraveled.
                But this is only an episode. The thing is not only in the blades. The double-circuit jet engine is not a toaster, but a high-tech unit with its secrets and difficulties. hi
            3. Ugrumiy
              Ugrumiy 20 November 2015 11: 55
              0
              Those. the Chinese themselves can’t come to him, but will they wait until he will definitely go abroad?
      3. adept666
        adept666 19 November 2015 17: 43
        0
        Using a 3D scanner, make digital models of complex parts
        The form alone does not give much, even if you can copy the product 1: 1, it’s still a dead end because it will be possible to produce only this type of product, it’s important not only to produce the analog form, but also to understand why it is just like that, and it is a whole science and methods for determining these complex geometries - this is the main technology that will never be sold to anyone.
        , and then without introducing the complex technology of their production in the usual way, just print the details on an industrial 3D printer ....
        Additive technologies certainly far advanced from the first prototypes and with the help of them it is already possible to manufacture products competing in their performance characteristics with powder metallurgy, but! So far additive technology this level there are only two countries in the world: the Russian Federation and the United States. And then these are rather tentative steps. Indeed, for such highly loaded elements, it is not just chemical that is important. composition, but the "correct" crystal lattice. Just put yourself a diamond - this is a very hard mineral (one of the hardest in the world), but it is enough to simply crush it! (If crumbling correctly smile ) Now imagine the blade of the hot part of the turbine. This product is only homogeneous in appearance, but in fact in one place it has one crystal lattice (aimed at hardness, for example, at the base of the rotor), in the central part the crystal lattice is different (directed at hardness, but less than at the base and at heat resistance), etc. This is a controlled crystallization process! In fact, we assemble a crystal lattice from various atoms with the necessary physical and chemical properties in different places of one monolithic product! So this problem cannot be solved with a conventional printer, here the printer needs a special one and you can build it only after passing through the powder metallurgy stage (and additive technologies are essentially the same powder metallurgy only, the method of forming a crystal lattice is different)
  8. NEXUS
    NEXUS 19 November 2015 06: 43
    +6
    The news is ambiguous ... on the one hand, we didn’t really equip ourselves with such a thought, but we are already sending it for export. But there is another thought that is secret and advanced, I’m sure they won’t pass it on, but they will put the economy option, so to speak. And even copy what they will not be sold if they get the same product as the original. Nobody will sell them the technology.
    The Chinese copied the SU-27, but the copy is an order of magnitude worse than the original. And although they made their own engine, its resource is much less, and indeed the quality leaves much to be desired. But I think over time, the Chinese will achieve decent fighter quality by seeing them purposefulness.
    1. Sirocco
      Sirocco 19 November 2015 06: 56
      +1
      Quote: NEXUS
      The Chinese copied the SU-27, but the copy is an order of magnitude worse than the original

      This is approximately like in this picture, there is little desire, here we need technology. Nevertheless, do not underestimate their pressure.
    2. Ugrumiy
      Ugrumiy 19 November 2015 07: 12
      -2
      Even if they sell an economy option, we don’t have an economy, plus the plant will not be engaged in the manufacture of weapons for our army, but will supply someone else's!
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 19 November 2015 07: 23
        +3
        Quote: Ugrumiy
        Even if they sell an economy option, we have no economy

        Where did you get the idea that our VKS do not get the SU-35?
        Under the contract, the Russian Aerospace Forces will receive the second batch of 48 Su-35S. Deliveries under the first contract will be completed in 2015, and a new agreement will be implemented in the coming years. After completing all the deliveries, the number of Su-35S fighters in service with the Russian Aerospace Forces will double and amount to 96 units.
        1. Ugrumiy
          Ugrumiy 20 November 2015 01: 37
          0
          Those. 48 cars for the whole of Russia do you consider a sufficient number, as well as 48 more unknown when "in the coming YEARS" !? While the PRC is guaranteed to receive 24 aircraft in two years, i.e. half of what we already have in the ranks. First you need to be fully armed with your own, and only then deal with neighbors! Let it be better to complete the T-50 plant than to divert production to the Chinese.
          1. NEXUS
            NEXUS 20 November 2015 02: 02
            +1
            Quote: Ugrumiy
            Those. 48 cars for the whole of Russia do you consider a sufficient number, as well as 48 more unknown when "in the coming YEARS" !?

            I don’t think so. But the conversation was that they do not exist in our VKS hi
            1. Ugrumiy
              Ugrumiy 20 November 2015 11: 50
              0
              Well, I exaggerated a little, but in general, in my opinion, 48 aircraft is actually zero on the scale of our entire army.
    3. Amurets
      Amurets 19 November 2015 08: 00
      +3
      Quote: NEXUS
      The Chinese copied the SU-27, but the copy is an order of magnitude worse than the original.

      China’s industry looked specifically. I won’t give figures there, that’s not the point. The most important thing in China is not the production of electric steel and materials with special properties, and without them you won’t make rocket or aircraft engines.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 19 November 2015 08: 04
        +2
        Quote: Amurets
        China’s industry looked specifically. I won’t give figures there, that’s not the point. The most important thing in China is not the production of electric steel and materials with special properties, and without them you won’t make rocket or aircraft engines.

        You will familiarize yourself with the story of how we had the necessary alloys for vanes for engines. Still, Cradle was a truly brilliant person. hi
        1. Amurets
          Amurets 19 November 2015 09: 47
          +3
          I have three books about A.M. Lyulka. In truth it was a genius. And a very interesting book has been posted on the Internet freely available: "Scientific and technical intelligence from Lenin to Gorbachev." There are answers to many questions that forum users ask.
    4. saturn.mmm
      saturn.mmm 19 November 2015 15: 48
      0
      Quote: NEXUS
      The Chinese copied the SU-27, but the copy is an order of magnitude worse than the original

      Maybe the Chinese have problems with the engine, but it seems there is no glider, the video landing on the aircraft carrier of a Chinese fighter, nothing falls apart, nothing falls off. Selling to the Chinese is also a good advertisement, the Chinese do not buy much in the world, they mainly sell.
      1. NEXUS
        NEXUS 19 November 2015 16: 25
        +1
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        but with a glider it seems not, a video landing on an aircraft carrier of a Chinese fighter, nothing falls apart, nothing falls off.

        And I did not claim that their fighters were glued with super glue for a ruble. request
        Quote: saturn.mmm
        Selling to the Chinese is also a good advertisement, the Chinese do not buy much in the world, they mainly sell.

        But who argues? But it is one thing to sell a finished product, and another thing is technology. No one in the world of technology sells their own. And finished, for God's sake. hi
      2. adept666
        adept666 19 November 2015 17: 53
        +1
        Maybe the Chinese have problems with the engine, but it seems there is no glider, the video landing on the aircraft carrier of a Chinese fighter, nothing falls apart, nothing falls off.
        The question remains how many times can he repeat this? laughing
  9. VNP1958PVN
    VNP1958PVN 19 November 2015 06: 45
    +5
    There remains one little hope - that there is somewhere somewhere a box controlled from a distance ...
    1. Bongo
      Bongo 19 November 2015 06: 52
      +1
      Quote: VNP1958PVN
      There remains one little hope - that there is somewhere somewhere a box controlled from a distance ...

      In every plane? wassat
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 19 November 2015 07: 42
        +6
        Quote: Bongo
        somewhere a box controlled from a distance ...

        In each plane a box laughing
        1. NEXUS
          NEXUS 19 November 2015 07: 46
          +3
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          In each plane a box

          Laughed in the morning laughing Thank you, Sasha.
          But there is something in this ... remember the scandal with the Raptors about the "bookmarks" in microchips "supplied by the Chinese for the US Defense Ministry ...
          1. Alexander Romanov
            Alexander Romanov 19 November 2015 07: 48
            +6
            Quote: NEXUS
            about "bookmarks" in microchips "

            Yes, we also heard about bookmarks laughing
            1. NEXUS
              NEXUS 19 November 2015 07: 51
              +3
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              Yes, we also heard about bookmarks

              Morning trolling invigorates laughing Thanks for the positive. Since me Aliverds wink
              1. Alexander Romanov
                Alexander Romanov 19 November 2015 08: 06
                +3
                Quote: NEXUS
                .With me Aliverds

                I do not know what it is, but for free and sweet vinegar, I take it!
                1. NEXUS
                  NEXUS 19 November 2015 08: 15
                  +2
                  Quote: Alexander Romanov
                  I do not know what it is, but for free and sweet vinegar, I take it!

                  This is a response gesture. wink And pills for greed in the appendage ... yes more, I think so laughing
      2. sherp2015
        sherp2015 19 November 2015 09: 14
        0
        Quote: Bongo
        In every plane?


        On each electronic board ...))
  10. .Strannik.
    .Strannik. 19 November 2015 06: 52
    +1
    Such a box is simply vital ...
  11. apro
    apro 19 November 2015 06: 52
    +7
    What is a su-35 glider? The Soviet development of the seventies engines is a little newer, there is nothing revolutionary in it for a long time, the more expensive and maintenance equipment is also not cheap, therefore the market is limited, and it would be nice to earn a pretty penny for the introduction of the t-50. while su-27-based planes are of interest to someone, it’s another ten years and it will become completely obsolete, and its life cycle is 25 years old. China may copy some secrets and force them, but they will be able to use them as an open question, as soon as China learns how to do it engines at the level of the need for foreign aircraft disappears completely.
    1. NEXUS
      NEXUS 19 November 2015 07: 00
      +5
      Quote: apro
      What is a su-35 glider Soviet design of the seventies

      You are very mistaken in claiming that the SU-35 is a modernization of the 27th Soviet era in the sense that is considered to be considered. In the 35th, even the glider is changed, not to mention engines (with all-angle nozzles), avionics (many of which nodes By the way, they will also stand on the PAK FA) and so on ... Let's just say this is essentially a new fighter, which is incorrect to compare with the 27th, like the T-72 with Armata. But if it’s more convenient for you to talk about succession, then it is DEEP MODERNIZATION SU-27. hi
      1. apro
        apro 19 November 2015 07: 30
        -1
        Well, comparing the T72 and the Armata is somewhat incorrect, but the T 34 and T34-85 are quite possible, also with the Su27 family fighters their concept is gradually leaving, no matter how we upgrade them, the future will be with super highly maneuverable stealth and unmanned vehicles with artificial intelligence that will become full-fledged 5 ++ +. And Su 27 is still 4 and how many pluses you don’t put in full they will not meet the new tasks. Deep modernization is all from our poverty and the consequences of a catastrophic defeat in the confrontation with the amers.
        1. NEXUS
          NEXUS 19 November 2015 07: 36
          +3
          Quote: apro
          . Deep modernization is all from our poverty and the consequences of a catastrophic defeat in the confrontation with the amers.

          Deep delusion. The modernization resource is laid in absolutely all types of weapons around the world. Take at least Amerov’s Abrams ... have they been upgrading it from poverty for 30 years already, or Leopard, as well as F-15/18/16?
          And the SU-35S is a super-maneuverable fighter complex, which will be relevant for another 30 years.
          1. apro
            apro 19 November 2015 08: 01
            +1
            It is clear that it is laid down, but it is not infinite, the only thing that justifies it is the conformity of the product and the assigned task, Tanks are not the main shock element of Western countries compared to Russia, their main cannon aviation and the design of new machines or their diversity is their main task with which they are less But we are a little off topic, the supply of Su35 can not harm the security of Russia, but it can strengthen the Chinese Air Force in the confrontation with the amers.
            1. NEXUS
              NEXUS 19 November 2015 08: 11
              +2
              Quote: apro
              It’s clear that it’s laid down, but it’s not infinite,

              And you look at what kind of modernization resource the United States is laying in Lightning, and we in PAK FA ... we are talking about 50 years! For example, 4th-generation fighters have been in service for more than 30 years. Americans are also modernizing their F-15/18/16 , and f-15 appeared earlier than our SU-27 and MIG-29.
              Quote: apro
              , the supply of su35 can not harm the security of Russia, but it can strengthen the Chinese air force in the confrontation with the amers.

              Nobody canceled help to allies wink In addition, in return, we also get components and assemblies that we either do not manufacture, or all of this at a low level, unlike China. This cooperation is mutually beneficial.
  12. kuguar7777
    kuguar7777 19 November 2015 07: 04
    0
    Instead of arming our army, we are arming others ... Where is the guarantee that this will not turn against Russia sad
  13. Alexander S.
    Alexander S. 19 November 2015 07: 11
    +1
    if the Chinese learn to copy technology at 100% ... then ours will have an even more powerful incentive to come up with something better .. better. The point is to hold on to the su-35 ... if it has a pack fa ... and then 6.e.7e and so on. You must always move forward and develop technology .. without pauses.
    1. 3officer
      3officer 19 November 2015 07: 21
      +2
      So it’s so .. ideally. But we need to prepare for the fact that the proceeds from the sale of weapons will inevitably begin to fall in the future. The Chinese will always be able to offer their copies on the market, albeit with lower performance characteristics, but at a much lower price. If ours the managers of the armament are all calculated and they are ready for this, I would like to believe.
      1. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 19 November 2015 09: 05
        +3
        Quote: 3officer
        So it’s so .. ideally. But we need to prepare for the fact that the proceeds from the sale of weapons will inevitably begin to fall in the future. The Chinese will always be able to offer their copies on the market, albeit with lower performance characteristics, but at a much lower price. If ours the managers of the armament are all calculated and they are ready for this, I would like to believe.
        Well, the Chinese could not win the car market, for example, even with obviously lower prices, although there are solid copies of cars from other countries.
  14. Wolka
    Wolka 19 November 2015 07: 20
    0
    the deal may be good in itself, but I think first you need to saturate your army with enough of these birds
  15. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 19 November 2015 07: 34
    0
    Are we giving them away for free? The amounts there are not small. And experience shows that the sophisticated weapon "against the manufacturer" does not work. Who knows why? recourse And for Siberia and Primorye - no need to worry. It is necessary to monitor the forest, the land, the rivers. But worry - no need. The dragon looks south and east. And his aviation - the one that was not bought from Russia - is lame. Engines from Sushki are still sweeping, although long ago they announced the release of their ...
    And in general, those who talked with the Chinese know that they will buy something — they can only be made very necessary. But copying an airplane without its own design and technology school is a futile business. You’ll be trailing behind all the time.
  16. stc-lsz
    stc-lsz 19 November 2015 07: 39
    +5
    The leitmotif of many messages is surprising: "Such-wicked Chinese will copy everything!" Let's remember our own, not so ancient history - how we bought and successfully copied foreign models of military equipment before the war, tanks, aircraft engines, etc., and so on ... So we can, but the Chinese can't? Double standards, however, are obtained!
    1. Lenivets
      Lenivets 19 November 2015 09: 31
      +1
      "how we bought and successfully copied foreign military equipment before the war"

      But nothing that we bought with technical documentation and a production license?
      1. stc-lsz
        stc-lsz 19 November 2015 19: 50
        0
        This is especially true of TU-4, "nee" - B-29 ...)))
        1. Lenivets
          Lenivets 19 November 2015 20: 00
          0
          "like us before the war foreign samples of military equipment were bought and successfully copied "

          "This is especially true of TU-4," nee "- B-29 ...)))"

          Or did you mean Afghan? laughing
  17. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 19 November 2015 07: 40
    +5
    Friends, there is another side to the coin. Selling the Su-35 in the east, we are encouraging India to participate in the financing of the T-50. And this is very important for us, that these technologies in the future will help to once again modernize the Su 35. And equip the army of the T-50
    1. MT266
      MT266 19 November 2015 08: 03
      +2
      I completely agree, because we need money for new developments, the main thing is not to focus on what has been achieved, but to build new aircraft. On civil aviation, we are in a complete hole!
      1. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 19 November 2015 09: 06
        0
        In any case, it’s better than trading your raw materials.
  18. hartlend
    hartlend 19 November 2015 08: 04
    +1
    The Chinnays must be strengthened so that in the event of a conflict the states could not immediately defeat them. Let them fight, and we will come to the division of property.
    1. Lenivets
      Lenivets 19 November 2015 09: 36
      0
      "in the event of a conflict, the states could not defeat them immediately. Let them fight, and we will come to the division of property."

      In the event of a conflict between China and the United States, we will come not to the division of property, but to a nuclear winter. hi
  19. starshina pv
    starshina pv 19 November 2015 08: 06
    +2
    Yes, it’s enough to sell one plane to them, they will do the rest !!!
  20. srelock
    srelock 19 November 2015 08: 28
    -2
    Great news, plus. Su-35 sales have officially started, the price tag is ~ $ 84 million. LM will find it difficult to compete with this "offer" good
  21. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 19 November 2015 08: 31
    0
    Yes, a normal contract. Export planes are truncated, no one has yet canceled the know-how, the Russian Air Force is preparing to adopt the T-50, the Su-35 is the modernization of the Su-27, which the Chinese are familiar with. Nobody is going to transfer technology to them.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 19 November 2015 10: 23
      +4
      So it was once, in the days of the USSR.
      Now nobody buys "truncated" versions. Fraers are gone.
      For example, Indian Su-30s are more "wound"
      than those that are in service with the Russian Aerospace Forces.
      The same with the T-90 tank.
      1. srelock
        srelock 19 November 2015 15: 30
        0
        Quote: voyaka uh
        For example, the Indian Su-30s are more "twisted" than those used by the Russian Aerospace Forces.
        As I understand it, this is your personal opinion smile
  22. iliitchitch
    iliitchitch 19 November 2015 08: 41
    +1
    Quote: Basarev
    And for some reason it seems to me that we are just buying verbal loyalty. For only one promise not to harm, we will give up the planes and technology. It will be like in the USSR: a lot of dough and technologies were poured, but as soon as the USSR became ill - immediately all these allies instantly repainted.


    But it is not necessary to persuade that "it becomes bad in the USSR", and we will be respected. The weakest dies, Darwinism however.
  23. stas11830
    stas11830 19 November 2015 08: 48
    -2
    For export, planes are always sold in an export version, but there are no new technologies there. It's like the "Caliber" exported by us for a long time flew only 300 km, and "Caliber" for internal use fly 2500 km. And for these 2 billion dollars, we will build for ourselves more advanced aircraft models with the latest technologies that have already been developed.
  24. Aleksiy
    Aleksiy 19 November 2015 09: 06
    +2
    2023 year. The Russian leadership decided to release all the defense documentation at the Chinese printing factory Kui All Lee. It’s cheaper and more profitable. An agreement was also signed, according to which any new model of military equipment should be sold from the country of Kötai. That's who truly is a PARTNER.
  25. Fantazer911
    Fantazer911 19 November 2015 09: 09
    +1
    Put a minus, from patriotism, it’s a shame for the fatherland, it’s a shame to sell everything and it’s not important without or with technology, but as they say those who know the technology do not need much time, it’s bad that we’re selling celestial things without filling in new troops, so we can immediately give them everything and not steamed, and the point is not in the terms of the contract you hope understand.
  26. Maksim
    Maksim 19 November 2015 09: 11
    0
    The news is definitely positive.
    If there is no corruption and kickbacks, and the proceeds will go to the good of the country.
  27. dchegrinec
    dchegrinec 19 November 2015 09: 17
    +1
    So the Chinese plan: to buy a couple of planes, one to disassemble copy on another to fly did not fail! You will have to spend a considerable amount on a batch of planes. And they will only be able to copy the corps, and then with errors for 15 years ..
  28. Alexvl
    Alexvl 19 November 2015 09: 28
    +1
    Unfortunately, our negotiators are much weaker than those who make these aircraft. We don’t know the details yet, or maybe we will never know everyone, but the matter was about the franchise and production of some aircraft in China. And this is a completely different story, in this case, technology transfer is indispensable. And their dismantling and research workshop will remain without work. We will give everything ourselves. It is necessary and clear to sell weapons abroad that obsolete models are of no interest to anyone, since the competition in this market is high. But you need to do it wisely.
  29. afrikanez
    afrikanez 19 November 2015 09: 38
    +1
    In any case, the aircraft would have to be sold to China, he is interested in this already in 2012. So, there’s no sense in pulling further. For one, we will go faster developing a new engine. The money we get from the transaction is not small. good
  30. iv.ionov
    iv.ionov 19 November 2015 09: 59
    +1
    How is it so, they said that we would trade among ourselves for rubles and yuan, and then again this green one, well, no way without it! Or in heaven under heaven so many rubles were not scraped together for grades !? smile wink laughing
  31. askort154
    askort154 19 November 2015 10: 01
    +3
    Don't break your spears guys. Everything is much more prosaic, read:

    The newspaper "Kommersant" quotes the statement of the head of Rostec Sergey Chemezov:
    Long negotiations on the supply of Su-35 to China are completed, we signed a contract ...

    And who recently came to Rostec? That's right - Serdyukov! fellow
    1. Aleksiy
      Aleksiy 19 November 2015 18: 29
      +1
      Or maybe Serdyukov such a role - the boyar. They put him in his place, he loots everything, plunders everything, and then, again, keep the thief. So here is someone who is stealing public money! And what about the KING - yes, he is holy, and nothing to do with it at all, then the boyars are filthy.
  32. VP
    VP 19 November 2015 10: 11
    0
    Quote: Sirocco
    I think it will be so

    Question to experts

    So, are you not a connoisseur yourself? If not, then based on what, then make an assumption about how it will be?
  33. amba balamut 77
    amba balamut 77 19 November 2015 10: 13
    +1
    The deal is dark, they will not tell us the truth. What is this statement based on? And you compare the deal with India on the Su-30. There is a difference, right? Hindus wanted new fighters, chose a successful model and a solid number. China, what does he want if he takes only 24 pcs for his Air Force They took the Su-27s 96 or so, although at first they said something about the 200s. The Chinese are on their own minds, who thinks we are in the black? It is safer to sign a blind contract with the US than to trust a sleeping tiger of the east. I really hope that all of us have calculated everything for 10 years in advance.
  34. amba balamut 77
    amba balamut 77 19 November 2015 10: 22
    +1
    Quote: Zaurbek
    Friends, there is another side to the coin. Selling the Su-35 in the east, we are encouraging India to participate in the financing of the T-50. And this is very important for us, that these technologies in the future will help to once again modernize the Su 35. And equip the army of the T-50

    Your words, yes to God in ears. For 15 years, we sold an aircraft carrier - 1 piece, destroyers - 4 pieces, frigates - 6 pieces. How much stronger have our Navy become? Still think that grandmas for 24 drying will help our Air Force?
  35. Mama_Cholli
    Mama_Cholli 19 November 2015 10: 23
    +3
    In their aircraft, the cat wept and already leaked to the Chinese for cloning ...
    Stupid deal IMHO.
  36. Dan Slav
    Dan Slav 19 November 2015 10: 37
    0
    Absolutely poorly visible with financing in the country. With a head too rotten.
    China give the plane. Yes, he will refuse in the top ten and go his own way.
    Soon we will buy everything there.
    And then we will turn out to be a province of China. Inner Russia. Sounds interesting.
    Instead of advertising bombing in order to raise oil prices, one should deal with one’s own country!
    All give away for a penny! Profuka country!
    The people were right before the Second World War. "Fucked up the country" though. Not then, but now!
  37. Vladimir
    Vladimir 19 November 2015 10: 39
    +1
    Personally, I don’t think that the contract was signed to the detriment of my own defense capabilities, the details of the deal were not announced, and since it is not known with what filling the deliveries will be, I repeat once again - this question was probably thought out.
  38. iliitchitch
    iliitchitch 19 November 2015 10: 44
    0
    Quote: Ugrumiy
    Even if they sell an economy option, we don’t have an economy, plus the plant will not be engaged in the manufacture of weapons for our army, but will supply someone else's!


    Who said that ??? I already wrote, I repeat: recently there was an interview with Rogozin on Russia 24, the priority was orders from the Ministry of Defense, the package was formed for three years, export is secondary, with the exception of contracts signed earlier.
    If you concluded today, this does not mean that tomorrow they will leave everything and begin to work for the Chinese. Production capacities were calculated during the preparation of the contract. Something is already annoying moans. Su-35 is a great car, but the batch for the VKS will be limited, because since 2016, the T-50 will go into production, and after the Yak-130 they won’t put a young lieutenant in, they’ll master the skill first in double SU-30SM, then in the 35th. A competent approach, in my opinion. If we don’t do it ourselves, the Chinese will not catch up with us, so we need to sell.
  39. aviator1913
    aviator1913 19 November 2015 11: 11
    0
    And how many sets of engines go with them? The Chinese usually buy airplanes, and they have twice as many aviation engines for cloning at home and installing generation 5 aircraft in this case.
  40. Sukhoi
    Sukhoi 19 November 2015 11: 38
    0
    I can’t understand one thing:
    If China created as many as two fifth-generation fighter jets, then why the hell did they need drying?
    1. aviator1913
      aviator1913 19 November 2015 11: 44
      0
      He doesn’t buy dryers, he buys sets of engines that go to dryers, and there are much more engines than on the 24 Su-35. They will put these engines on their 5 generation aircraft. Some will try to parse and copy, if this time succeeds. All the same, the engine is not a toy so it would be so easy to make a copy with similar characteristics
      1. Sukhoi
        Sukhoi 19 November 2015 16: 15
        0
        So they don’t have any fifth generation. And there can be no without our units.
  41. kill the fascist
    kill the fascist 19 November 2015 11: 43
    0
    Chinese comrades can only sell military-industrial products in large quantities, as in this case. it will be at least some kind of compensation for the spent funds on development, in the event that China arranges for the release of copies.
  42. Ilya77
    Ilya77 19 November 2015 12: 37
    0
    In fact, the Su-35 and T-50 for us = it's like the F-35 and F-22 for the United States. f-35 is supposed to be exported for itself, and F-22 only for itself. So it is here. And as for copying ... not everything is so simple, even Europeans and the USA have not learned how to make the same high-quality titanium, they are buying from us. And even more so now all the composites are on, finally there is alles, it’s hard to copy, you can’t get it with a simple brute force.
  43. imugn
    imugn 19 November 2015 12: 53
    +1
    Again, a bargain in the bucks ...
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 19 November 2015 14: 24
      0
      Quote: imugn
      Again, a bargain in the bucks ...

      Bucks is the equivalent, and not the currency of the calculation, in which this secret of the transaction will be calculated, maybe in Kauri shells, or maybe a bag of chip chips.
  44. GraveBezKresta
    GraveBezKresta 19 November 2015 19: 28
    0
    Putin is betraying the interests of the Slavs and arming the chinaways to the teeth, and with the latest weapons. It will end badly for us. War and millionth sacrifice. The Chinese people themselves write and talk about it openly. Go to any Chinese patriotic site, everything is written there. Vova Putin is not the prophet Moses. And because he calls the Chinaman friends and partners, they will not become one. The dragon is a creeping and flying reptile. And by definition, he will never become a peaceful dove, despite all the oligarchic propaganda.
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 20 November 2015 02: 32
      0
      Check out the document "On the strategic doctrine of the development of the PRC". And do not carry nonsense. Success in learning the Chinese language and "RED FLAG" in your hands.