Military Review

Last commander of Sevastopol

65
Last commander of Sevastopol



We left the Crimea
amid smoke and fire
I'm from the stern all the time past
in his horse shot ...

In November 1920, the remnants of the Russian army, General Baron Peter Wrangel, left the last inch of their native land and went into the unknown. Thousands of winners who believed in charity and remained in the Crimea still lie in the unknown graves of the peninsula ...

The White Army was evacuated to Turkey on 126 ships, which apparently remains the largest in the world stories marine evacuation. Russia then left the 145 693 man (including 50 000 soldiers and officers), not counting ship crews.

The Crimean exodus 95 years ago became one of the tragic pages of the history of our country, which today reminds of the cruelty and uncompromising civil wars. Few people know that one of the organizers of the evacuation, who saved tens of thousands of people from death, was a modest Russian general, Nikolai Nikolayevich Stogov.


And so the White Army was evacuated from the Crimea in life. A photo:

Choice

By the beginning of the revolution, Nikolai Stogov was already fully established as a high-ranking officer of the General Staff. He was born on September 10 of 1872 in the family of a merchant of the Vyshnevolotsky Volost, Tver Province, graduated from the Nikolaev Cadet Corps (1891), 2-e Military Konstantin School (1893) and the Nikolaev Academy of the General Staff (1900). He began his service in the Life Guards Volyn Regiment. Subsequently, he served on the General Staff in the Warsaw Military District and the General Directorate of the General Staff. Participated in the First World War. In June, 1915, for bravery, was awarded the Order of St. George, 4 degree and St. George weapons. He served at the 8 Army Headquarters as Quartermaster General and served as chief of staff, commanded the corps. In the spring of 1917, he was promoted to lieutenant general ...

"We were met by a bewildered General Stogov ..." Some Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, he complained to me. “I’m used to counting you all, forgive me, traitors.”

By the revolutionary upheavals Stogov was wary. In 1917, the famous writer Viktor Shklovsky met the image of the general on the pages of his “Sentimental Journey”: “We were met by a bewildered General Stogov. He no longer understood anything.” Some Bolsheviks, Mensheviks, he complained to me. “I’m used to counting you all, forgive me, traitors.” I didn’t take offense at him. He was very hard ... he just felt hurt that his soldiers were fighting so badly. He didn’t have any influence on the soldiers, although they knew him and appreciated. "

The authorities, however, trusted the general. 10 September 1917, during the replacement of rebellious Kornilovites by more loyal commanders to the Provisional Government, Stogov took the post of chief of staff of the armies of the Southwestern Front, and from October temporarily served as commander-in-chief of the armies of the front.

And then it was time for a painful choice: with whom to be when the country and the army collapse?


Nikolay Nikolayevich Stogov Photos:


Military Officer of the Red Army


Finding no answer, Stag up to the spring of 1918, wandered from false documents. As Mikhail Bonch-Bruevich, one of the first generals of the old army who went to the red generals, recalled in the second half of March 1918 of the year, already in Moscow, a tattered man with a disheveled beard, run to the extreme by a man in a torn coat and, looking at me with red eyes for insomnia, as if checking whether I was this, he said unexpectedly:

- You will not learn, Mikhail Dmitrievich? I - Stogov ... "

8 May 1918, he became the first chief of the All-Russian General Staff - one of the highest governing bodies of the nascent Red Army. It is amazing that a monarchist and an opponent of the Bolsheviks fell on such a responsible post. Complaints of party workers fell on the former general. Polish revolutionary and commissar Ignatius Dzevaltovsky reported to the People's Commissariat for Military Affairs in the summer of 1918 that Stogov was “not a proponent of vigorous and energetic work for the Soviet Republic, but he did not believe in the creation of the Red Army as an illusion. For the existing system he looks like a temporary one and says that the Bolsheviks face the same fate as Kerensky. "

However, by some miracle, Stogov managed to keep afloat. The belligerent government urgently needed professionals.

According to the chairman of the Supreme Military Inspectorate Nikolai Podvoisky, "Stogov, good authority, a big man ... he is undoubtedly a man who does not believe in the regime or anything ... but I would not hesitate to take him to the inspection. First would not let out on such a role, but, ultimately, would have done so that he would work very productively. "

Bely General Petr Makhrov recalled Stogov’s story about life in Soviet Russia: “He was forced to join the Bolsheviks in the military. He had a large family: a wife and five children, of whom the oldest boy was twelve years old. We had to feed and clothe them. Life in Moscow for Stogov was extremely difficult, especially in the moral sense ... "

However, neither the red nor the white memoirists did not mention the main thing: in addition to the high official position in Soviet Russia, Stogov ... led the military organization of the National Center. That is, the anti-Bolshevik armed underground in Moscow.

General Stogov was the largest white agent in the Red Army.


General A.A. Brusilov (fourth from left) with the headquarters of the Southwestern Front. To the left of Brusilov - General Stogov. A photo:

White agent

According to various estimates, up to four hundred people collaborated with the underground military organization, including a number of high-ranking military personnel. But in 1919, the Chekists gradually arrested the leadership of the organization, and then eliminated it. Hundreds of defendants in the National Center case were sent to prisons and camps, several dozen were shot. Lenin attached particular importance to the disclosure of this case.

However, with the head of the organization there was a slip. Either with the aim of tracing the reconnaissance contacts, or due to an oversight of Stogov, they were transferred from prison to a concentration camp, from where he safely escaped. The details of the escape became known recently, after the discovery by the author of these lines in the Guverovsky archive in the USA of the secret report of the general to the white command.

18 July 1919 year Stogov was transferred to the Androniyevsky monastery, which housed a concentration camp. And then - to the Ivanovo camp, where the regime was very liberal: prisoners could work outside the "zone". Stogov signed up for unloading barges with firewood, and later settled down to disassemble the library. 16 August he went home and did not return to the camp.

For two months he lived in Moscow illegally, hiding on the outskirts of the city (for example, for five days in the Perovsky workshop area of ​​the Moscow-Kazan Railway). At the same time, he did not stop the underground work, was preparing an uprising, which was supposed to begin when Denikinists approached. For this purpose, he established contact with deserters hiding in the Volokolamsk district of the Moscow province — at the beginning of September 1919 there were such people up to 6000 people.


The arrest warrant for Stogov issued by the Special Department of the Cheka. 1919 g. Photo:

But they failed to incite them to the uprising.

Then Stogov decided to run. A good companion came up - Lieutenant Colonel N.N. from Kolchak's Stake, traveling to Denikin (his identity could not be established). Illegals left Moscow for Bryansk by train, and then made their way to the front line by train and on foot, moving south and south-west from Bryansk through Navlya and Zernovo, and then in the direction of Rylsk (the front line was held 25 versts before Rylsk). Having safely gone over to his own, Stogov reached Lgov, then from Vorozhba in the campaign car he arrived in Kharkov, after which he went to Denikin Headquarters in Taganrog.

According to Mikhail Bonch-Bruevich, "our big secrets of interest to whites, he (Stogov. - AG) did not know, and was not allowed to them. If he pursued this kind of espionage goals, he should more than one month to sit in the headquarters ... And yet he turned out to be a despicable defector. But I still can not exactly understand why he did it "8.


Letter from General A.I. Denikin Stogovu. Not earlier than 1924. Photo:


Commandant of Sevastopol


“I listened attentively to the monologue of Nikolai Nikolayevich and looked at his typical Russian face with an“ orthodox ”Russian beard, into his small eyes that shone with intelligence and kindness. Over the eleven months of our separation, he leaned over and lost weight, bearing - “vigorously and well done.” Only now his hair and beard were silvered. He was primarily a man of duty and an ardent patriot of Russia ... He dearly loved his "Orthodox" Russia, considered it above all "Basurman" countries, was deeply religious and church man. About he could not imagine Russia without the “pious and autocratic” and without the “Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia.” Any other Russia was perceived by him as devoid of soul. His whole being rested on the precepts of the old antiquity. However, it would be a mistake to consider him a retrograde. who knows Western ideas, but, paying tribute to them, he always said: “What is great for a German is death for a Russian,” General Mahrov recalled.

As noted by Colonel Alexei von Lampe, Stogov has aged very much during his stay in Soviet Russia. Constant nervous strain, arrests, interrogations ... There is information that the spouse of the general was executed after fleeing to the whites. She was arrested along with Stogov’s son, hitting a Cheka ambush. However, documents on this account could not be found.

At first, White Stogov was listed at the disposal of the head of the military department, then he held the position of chief of a fortified position near Rostov-on-Don, and was chief of staff of the Kuban army. Since May 1920, he was appointed commandant of the fortress of Sevastopol and commander of the army rear area. Here and found his outcome of the Civil War.


November 14 1920 of the year. Another ship leaves Yalta. A photo:

Parting

Nikolai Nikolayevich was one of the organizers of the evacuation of parts of the Russian army of General PN. Wrangel from Sevastopol in November 1920 of the year. Evacuation, thanks to the stewardship of Stogov, was carried out exemplary. As Wrangel himself recalled, Stogov and other leaders of the evacuation “all were at the height of the situation, with complete self-control, unrelenting exertion of forces, carrying out their work.” To protect the landing of the ships from a possible attack helped Junker Konstantinovsky Military School.

It is known that 15 November, the general left the city last. Less than two hours later, the Reds entered Sevastopol. Before leaving his native land forever, Stogov stopped, crossed himself and wept.

Stogov settled in Serbia, then moved to Paris. He worked at the plant, headed on a volunteer basis the military office of the Russian All-Military Union - the main military organization of white immigrants. Died

December 7 1959, buried in the Paris cemetery of Saint-Genevieve-des-Bois.

Until the last days, Stogov kept silence about his secret work with the Reds. Perhaps he was afraid to damage his comrades who remained in Russia. Even in 1938, he wrote to General V.V. Chernavin: "I can not say that, in my opinion, it is still far from the time to write" the whole story "16.
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  1. Same lech
    Same lech 22 November 2015 05: 47 New
    18
    In the film RUN AND SERVED TWO COMRADES, the civil war in all its despair and cruelty is very well shown.
    As if he himself went through it ... God forbid any people go through such horrors.
  2. apro
    apro 22 November 2015 06: 36 New
    +8
    As always, a military intellectual was talking like a g .... about in the hole neither ours nor yours, the white people betrayed the reds betrayed by the white, showed nothing in emigration, worked against Russia and whether he had a homeland. The Russian nobility and officers were far from people, the film Walking in agony well reflected this. The heroization of the white movement will not bring anyone good, they became strangers in Russia long before the revolution.
    1. mitrich
      mitrich 22 November 2015 17: 20 New
      +1
      Well, yes, but, as I understand it, your beloved Bolsheviks, like ... didn’t hang out and were so close to the people that millions killed them in a civilian and then tens of millions under the Soviet, cannibalistic government.
      And still in the country grayness is visible, as in your commentary, which has settled on the whole country for many decades, after the destruction and exile of most of the color of Russian society.
      1. apro
        apro 22 November 2015 18: 42 New
        +5
        It is the color of society that betrayed your tsar, betrayed the country and did nothing to prevent the massacre, the Bolsheviks did less evil and they only defeated it, and today the color of bourgeois society causes nothing but disgust as it did a hundred years ago.
      2. IS-80
        IS-80 22 November 2015 18: 46 New
        +4
        Quote: mitrich
        And still in the country grayness is visible, as in your commentary, which has settled on the whole country for many decades, after the destruction and exile of most of the color of Russian society.

        And what will you be from? From expelled or destroyed?
    2. Morrrow
      Morrrow 23 November 2015 13: 02 New
      +1
      English nobles - part of the people?
  3. parusnik
    parusnik 22 November 2015 07: 10 New
    +3
    Even in 1938, he wrote to General V.V. Chernavin: "I can not help but say that, in my opinion, the time has not yet come to write" the whole story "... The roots apparently existed for a long time .. Do not uproot ..
  4. swertalf
    swertalf 22 November 2015 09: 00 New
    +7
    A real hero - he entered the service of the proletariat to feed his five children, and slowly crap.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 22 November 2015 17: 03 New
      +1
      Quote: swertalf
      A real hero - he entered the service of the proletariat to feed his five children, and slowly crap.

      ... this is from your / proletarian = Trotskyist / point of view. He harmed Trotsky's chicks as much as he could, to the best of his ability, but something about the fate of his five children was not written in the article.
  5. kvs207
    kvs207 22 November 2015 09: 05 New
    +2
    The author was too lazy to remove the numbers pointing to the links. The reader must be respected.
  6. Nikita Gromov
    Nikita Gromov 22 November 2015 09: 49 New
    11
    This is an unforgettable Russian tragedy. Even now it's hard to read about it.
    1. Miner
      Miner 22 November 2015 12: 30 New
      +8
      I agree with you.

      "We left the Crimea
      amid smoke and fire
      I'm from the stern all the time past
      a horse shot at his ... "

      I still can’t forget that scene from the film when Vysotsky, looking at how his horse jumped into the sea after the departing ship, shot himself ... unable to survive the emotions tormenting him ..

      Strong photo ...
  7. Aleksander
    Aleksander 22 November 2015 10: 52 New
    +9
    Many thanks and grateful memory of the descendants of the Russian General Stogov for the skillful organization of the rescue of hundreds of thousands of Russian citizens ....
    1. Georg Shep
      Georg Shep 22 November 2015 12: 37 New
      14
      Yes, the Crimean tragedy and after the evacuation continued and those Russian people who remained were victims of the monstrous terror arranged by the international-ethnic executioners of the Russian people - Rosalia Zemlyachoy and Bela Kun. This is not to forget.
      1. MrK
        MrK 22 November 2015 16: 40 New
        +7
        Quote: Georg Shep
        seemed victims of the monstrous terror arranged by the international-ethnic executioners of the Russian people — Rosalia Zemlyacha and Bela Kun.


        Do not forget what the liberals blurt out.
        Solzhenitsyn correctly said: WASHING ALWAYS DIFFICULT THAN THAN TO SPIT. IT IS NECESSARY TO BE ABLE TO QUICKLY AND AT THE NECESSARY MOMENT, BE SINGED FIRST.
        To expose this lie about the Countrywoman and Bela Kun, I will quote from Alexander Kurlyandchik’s book “Damned Soviet Power” ... on Prose. RU. This book is well known today.
        «After the liberation of Crimea from Wrangel troops, according to the democratic scribes, it was chopped up with drafts and drowned in barges from 60 000 to 80 000 White Guard officers. Remember N. Mikhalkov’s film “Sunstroke”. A certain Zinaida Borisova, the head of the Samara House-Museum, MV Frunze, claimed that the Bolsheviks had drowned white officers in the Crimea - 200 000. “These officers were executed in a terrible way,” says the woman. “They were built on the seashore, each hung a stone on his neck and shot in the back of the head.” Imagine a picture - 200 of thousands of people (the same population of the city) were built on the seashore and everyone needs to tie a stone to his neck and shoot him in the back of the head. This is how many people need to be involved in this, how many ropes, ropes, etc. need to prepare for hanging stones. And what kind of psyche you need to have in order to shoot so many people.

        And so as not to be unfounded, let us turn to the book of Baron P.N. Wrangel's Notes (November 1916 - November 1920) in two books. And in chapter IX "Everything on Wrangel" of his second book P.N. Wrangel notes: “By September 1, our forces did not surpass 25 000 bayonets and 8000 checkers. And in Crimea, for the prepared fortifications, even a smaller number of the military personnel of our troops managed to retreat. ” Well, let's say 30 000 backtracked. If each officer in the subordination had at least four to five soldiers, it turns out that in Crimea there were about 6 000 white officers. Total!!!
        Of course they were shot. How many? I suppose a hundred, another, whose hands were up to the elbow in blood. Otherwise, where did the thousands of white officers come from in Turkey, Bulgaria, Korea, China, France, the USA, and around the world. I REMEMBER THAT AT ALL FRONTS (AT ALL) IN THE WHITE ARMY, THE FULL OF 40 000 OFFICERS (TOTAL) Fought. That's about it, and anti-Soviet "black" myths are composed! And seemingly respectable people with advanced degrees
        ».
        I am ashamed of people who innocently believe in ... gigantic liberals.
        1. V.ic
          V.ic 22 November 2015 17: 08 New
          +4
          Quote: mrark
          I REMEMBER THAT ON ALL FRONTS (ON ALL) IN THE WHITE ARMY, FULL OF 40 OFFICERS (TOTAL) Fought

          Remember how many officers stormed Yekaterinodar and how many expected their participation in non-participation in the struggle.
          1. MrK
            MrK 22 November 2015 22: 00 New
            +1
            Quote: V.ic
            Remember how many officers stormed Yekaterinodar

            I don’t know how many stormed them. I know something else.
            A huge role at the time was played by the appeal of a group of former tsarist generals, who called in 1920 for officers to go over to the Reds.
            Here are quotes: "The free Russian people liberated all the peoples that were subject to it and made it possible for each of them to self-determine and arrange their own lives at their own discretion .... At this critical moment in our people’s life, we, your senior comrades, appeal to your feelings of love and devotion to your homeland and urge you to ... voluntarily go with complete selflessness and hunting in the Red Army and serve there not for fear, but for conscience, so that with your honest service, not sparing your life, defend Russia, whatever the cost to us, and prevent its plunderbecause in the latter case it could irrevocably disappear, and then our descendants will rightly curse us ... because we ... did not use our military knowledge and experience, forgot our native Russian people and ruined our Mother Russia».
            The appeal was signed by famous and respected people in the old army: generals Polivanov, Zayonchkovsky, Klembovsky, Parsky, Baluyev, Akimov, Admiral Gutor. The first was the name of the most authoritative military commander, General A. Brusilov.
            And this appeal, by the way, was a huge success. After it appeared, another twenty thousand former tsarist officers came to the Red Army.
            Quote from the same book.
        2. Mangel olys
          Mangel olys 22 November 2015 17: 09 New
          +4
          Quote: mrark
          Solzhenitsyn correctly said: WASHING IS ALWAYS DIFFICULT THAN THAN TO SOMP. IT IS NECESSARY TO BE ABLE TO QUICKLY AND AT THE NECESSARY MOMENT, BE SINGED FIRST.


          What did he do successfully.
  8. dobr5919
    dobr5919 22 November 2015 11: 05 New
    11
    A true "patriot" of Russia! He swore an oath to the Tsar, the Reds, and Wrangel (represented by the French, for example. Here is the flesh of the agreement between the French government and the "restored Russia", which supposedly is "represented by Baron von Wrangel." what this Russian patriot signed up for (I quote only the most delicious):


    "Recognize all the obligations of Russia and its cities in relation to France with priority and interest on interest.

    Payment of interest and annual repayment is guaranteed:

    a) the transfer to France of the right to operate all the railways of European Russia for a known period; b) the transfer of France the right to levy customs and port duties in all ports of the Black and Azov Seas; c) by providing France with surplus bread in Ukraine and the Kuban region for a certain number of years, with pre-war export being taken as the starting point; d) by providing France with three-quarters of oil and gasoline production for a known period, with pre-war production being put in the foundation; e) transfer of a quarter of the coal mined in the Donetsk Region over a known number of years. The indicated period will be established by a special agreement that has not yet been worked out.

    Paragraphs b, c and e take effect immediately upon the occupation by the troops of the gene. Wrangel relevant territories. The proceeds from the export of raw materials are used to pay interest on old debts.

    Under the Russian ministries of finance, trade and industry, official French financial and commercial offices will be established in the future, the rights of which must be established by special agreement. "
    1. Bekas1967
      Bekas1967 22 November 2015 11: 51 New
      +6
      They sold then, they are selling now. They were far from the people then, far away, and now. I mean the Russian elite. (The so-called) ...
    2. Korvo
      Korvo 22 November 2015 13: 53 New
      +1
      So he (the contract) apparently entered into force, though almost a century late fellow
    3. Ermak
      Ermak 23 November 2015 06: 12 New
      0
      Where is the link to the source?
  9. Basil50
    Basil50 22 November 2015 11: 41 New
    +3
    This is the most common * tiligent * with its claims to respect and recognition. Today, they also appeared quite a lot, and everyone claims to be recognized, they are furious that they are recognized only in the * West *, and here they are all the same renegades. Really like ... in the hole.
  10. kirpich
    kirpich 22 November 2015 12: 09 New
    +7
    Life in Moscow for Stogov was extremely difficult, especially morally ... "6

    However, neither the red nor the white memoirists mentioned the main thing: in addition to the high official position in Soviet Russia, Stogov ... led the military organization of the National Center. That is, the anti-Bolshevik armed underground in Moscow.

    General Stogov was the largest white agent in the Red Army.


    It’s a pity they didn’t shoot him.
  11. Roy
    Roy 22 November 2015 12: 45 New
    10
    I pay tribute to all Russian people who died in the Civil War unleashed by alien forces. This is the fratricidal tragedy of our Russian people, a wound that will never heal.
  12. holgert
    holgert 22 November 2015 13: 47 New
    +9
    Many thanks to VO for this article !!!!! How many years have passed, but the Civil War did not end ----- an example of diametrically opposed comments on this article .... The article mentioned Shklovsky’s novel "Sentimental Journey" "- ---- very well shows the whole "" beauty "of the" revolution and its "" aesthetics and truth "" .... Read the witness of the events !!!!
  13. gendir.grifon
    gendir.grifon 22 November 2015 14: 20 New
    +9
    The heroization of the white and other bourgeois will not lead to anything good. They kind of fought for their Russia. What is there. For their familiar world of “Schubert waltzes and the crunch of French rolls” they fought. Long before the revolution, they lived their own world, far from the world of the common people. Therefore, the majority of the people and the majority of the military, including higher ones, followed the Bolsheviks. One can blame the Bolsheviks a lot for being agents there, but the nationally oriented Bolsheviks, headed by Stalin I.V. just saved Russia from collapse and destruction. And the bourgeois, including the highest ranks ruined Russia, allowed the creation of a revolutionary situation, the signs of which were very correctly described by Lenin V.I. (the tops cannot, the lower classes do not want). Among the whites there were many confused people who, by the will of fate, ended up in the white army and in exile. Many later returned to Russia. And those who support today's bourgeois state in Russia heroize and sculpt from them the image of victims of red terror. As then in Russia, society is greatly divided, the revolutionary situation is obvious. The media are doing everything to prevent an explosion.
    1. veteran66
      veteran66 22 November 2015 14: 36 New
      -5
      Quote: gendir.grifon
      They kind of fought for their Russia. What is there. For their familiar world of “Schubert waltzes and the crunch of French rolls” they fought.

      and where does such knowledge come from? Have you personally asked them about this? And what majority of the people and officers went where? The civil war flared up all over Russia, the two main forces that met there were supporters of legal power, and supporters of storytellers about a beautiful future, there was also a third force - "people's", all kinds of fathers, chieftains and other "heads". The storytellers won, and so we followed them to the "communist far", even did not reach ....
      1. MrK
        MrK 22 November 2015 16: 36 New
        +4
        Quote: veteran66
        The storytellers won, and so we followed them to the "communist far", even did not reach ....

        The people who created the second world economy won. And what did your democrats create? Second Nigeria, but with missiles.
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 22 November 2015 17: 32 New
          +4
          Well, firstly, the democrats are not mine, I do not campaign for them, and secondly, before democracy, we still like Beijing before in a known manner. Please indicate the period of validity of these "democrats", otherwise the current fears of Europe and Russian state officials do not fit with this "second Nigeria"
        2. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. 22 November 2015 19: 15 New
          +3
          Quote: mrark
          The people who created the second world economy won. And what did your democrats create? Second Nigeria, but with missiles.

          No need to offend the Democrats: they have nothing to do with the missiles - the missiles came from the Communists.
          1. MrK
            MrK 22 November 2015 21: 49 New
            +3
            Quote: Sergey S.
            No need to offend the Democrats: they have nothing to do with the missiles - the missiles came from the Communists.


            So I do not offend. They created a second Nigeria, and yes, missiles from the Communists
      2. Korvo
        Korvo 22 November 2015 19: 00 New
        -4
        Quote: veteran66
        so we followed them

        There are two types of people, one go behind by someone, while others go with by someone !, and so the first case is also characteristic of animals of the artiodactyl squad from the genus of rams and they always lead to the same thing!
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 22 November 2015 19: 47 New
          +4
          Quote: Korvo
          and so the first case is also characteristic of animals of the order of artiodactyls from the genus of rams and always lead them to the same thing!

          Judging by the slogan: "The party is our helmsman!" are the peoples of the USSR equated with the glorious detachment of gentle artiodactyls? Bravo!!! Before you give such characteristics, you would at least bother to study the topic, so as not to make such mistakes.
          1. Korvo
            Korvo 22 November 2015 20: 21 New
            -1
            Quote: veteran66
            "The party is our helmsman!"

            And here are Mikhalkov’s poems and “peoples”? Well, for that matter, what is it- steering?
      3. Rastas
        Rastas 22 November 2015 21: 03 New
        +3
        Well, why did White really fight? Only without common words, such as "united and indivisible Russia." Specifically, for what? For the past? So most did not want to live in the past anymore. For the future? Which one? What kind of Russia did they want to build? Reading memoirs, I did not find the answer anywhere. Only common words and goals to defeat the Reds, and then we'll see. Only Denikin had any political views, the rest could not boast of this. Many whites went against the reds only because they made the Brest Peace, like Roshchin in "Walking through the agony."
        1. Morrrow
          Morrrow 23 November 2015 13: 09 New
          0
          One and indivisible
    2. V.ic
      V.ic 22 November 2015 17: 11 New
      +6
      Quote: gendir.grifon
      Many later returned to Russia. And whites are heroized and sculpted from them as the victims of red terror

      Do you remember the fate of Slashchov-Crimean?
    3. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 22 November 2015 19: 11 New
      0
      Quote: gendir.grifon
      And those who support today's bourgeois state in Russia heroize and sculpt from them the image of victims of red terror.

      And do not care about those who hold what was really.
      And while capitalism is bending in Russia, whites will be furry, romanovs will be saints, rich and honest and smart ...
      But the time will come ... a flame will flare up from the spark ... and wagering will be adequate: contracts of whites will be opened for transferring national wealth to foreign jurisdiction, we will finally figure it out and include in the history books the events of 1608 - 1613 and explain how Romanovs and other homeland sellers they didn’t allow the election of Prince Pozharsky as Tsar of Russia; we’ll also deal with the public domain, which was stolen from the people.
  14. gendir.grifon
    gendir.grifon 22 November 2015 14: 55 New
    +6
    The storytellers created a reality, due to the heritage of which we all continue to live now. Even those who curse the "bloody" communist regime. True, the legacy of this totalitarian regime remains less and less, the oligarchs and other bourgeois do not want to invest, they want to get more dough. They want to keep the opportunity to continue to live on the Soviet heritage, therefore, in the media controlled by them, there is an inconspicuous process of heroization of the white movement.
    1. veteran66
      veteran66 22 November 2015 15: 10 New
      -3
      Quote: gendir.grifon
      The storytellers created a reality, due to the heritage of which we all continue to live now.

      Until recently, the main revenue side of our budget was oil and gas. Did the Bolsheviks try ???? "Winter has passed - summer has come, thanks to the party for that !!"
      1. Sergey S.
        Sergey S. 22 November 2015 19: 18 New
        +1
        Quote: veteran66
        Winter has passed - summer has come, thanks to the party for this!

        Once upon a time we joked ...
        But times have changed and humorous thanks from a year turned into sincere gratitude.
        And if you don’t understand this, don’t try to repeat the maidan delirium, now, to the sweeping groaning of the USSR, an excellent antidote has appeared - real life.
        1. veteran66
          veteran66 22 November 2015 19: 50 New
          -3
          Quote: Sergey S.
          And if you don’t understand this, don’t try to repeat the maidan delirium, now, to the sweeping groaning of the USSR, an excellent antidote has appeared - real life.

          I did not engage in sweeping harassment of the USSR, there were positive aspects there, but what is the antidote? Today's life only emphasizes the wretchedness in which we lived.
          1. Sergey S.
            Sergey S. 22 November 2015 19: 58 New
            +4
            Quote: veteran66
            Today's life only emphasizes the wretchedness in which we lived.

            It depends on what life is considered.
            A normal person spends most of his life at work.
            In the USSR, no matter what the business trip is, you will find out such a thing .... you will see ...
            Starana confidently moved into the future.

            There were domestic problems, sometimes even misery came ...

            And now it's the other way around. Home computers, Internet, sausage and clothes ...
            At work, managers and 20% of productivity from the time of the USSR.
            For 25 years not a single ship in the ocean zone has been built ...
            1. veteran66
              veteran66 22 November 2015 20: 46 New
              -1
              Quote: Sergey S.
              At work, managers and 20% of productivity from the time of the USSR.

              You know, productivity in the USSR was no extensive method. That's why the economy collapsed when the borders were opened. That's all and sundry say (and rightfully) that the villages are dying. But what’s the paradox, then, with the millionaire collective farms, we bought grain, and now, with the farm that was hayed, we sell
              1. Korvo
                Korvo 22 November 2015 20: 54 New
                0
                Quote: veteran66
                But what’s the paradox, then, with the millionaire collective farms, we bought grain, and now, with the farm that was hayed, we sell

                http://zavtra.ru/content/view/pochemu-sssr-ne-prodaval-zerno-za-granitsu/
              2. IS-80
                IS-80 23 November 2015 00: 00 New
                +1
                Quote: veteran66
                But what’s the paradox, then, with the millionaire collective farms, we bought grain, and now, with the farm that was hayed, we sell

                But what about cattle and other sheep and sows here? And then, with the bloody communes of my grandmother in the village, the herd was three times as large, and in the heyday of capitalism, somehow, somehow, the boyar cattle was declining. And the people were three times less. Some kind of zrada. Well, these are my personal impressions, but the statistics were about 60 million, and now about 19 in Russia.
                1. veteran66
                  veteran66 23 November 2015 19: 44 New
                  -2
                  Quote: IS-80
                  But what about cattle and other sheep and sows here?

                  You know, I didn’t count cattle on their heads, but now, not in the example of the USSR, in shops and markets, I do not want to take meat and products from it in bulk, take it. So there is no point in counting where it has disappeared, but somewhere has arrived. But "Cho", for a minute, is written through "ё", learn the Russian language, Mr. BANDERlog, Glory to the DPR !!
          2. IS-80
            IS-80 22 November 2015 20: 14 New
            0
            Quote: veteran66
            Today's life only emphasizes the wretchedness in which we lived.

            But from now on, more specific. What exactly?
            1. veteran66
              veteran66 22 November 2015 20: 42 New
              +1
              Quote: IS-80
              But from now on, more specific. What exactly?

              you know, already tired of talking about these lines and empty counters, the pursuit of normal clothes, dull hotels and the architecture of cities, the impossibility of traveling abroad .... what's the point. I don’t want to go back to the USSR.
              1. IS-80
                IS-80 22 November 2015 21: 09 New
                +4
                Quote: veteran66
                you know, already tired of talking about these lines and empty counters, the pursuit of normal clothes, dull hotels and the architecture of cities, the impossibility of traveling abroad .... what's the point. I don’t want to go back to the USSR.

                That I also remember. But then let us compare the USSR of the 80s with the Russian Empire of the year 1905. A very interesting comparison will come out. Especially if you take as an example not some Yusupovs and Sheremetevs, but for example my family.
                Quote: veteran66
                I don’t want to go back to the USSR.

                And I want. Of course, rethinking the experience and getting rid of those shortcomings that were inherent in the USSR and destroyed it. Socialism and communism are the systems of the future. It is a pity that you do not understand this.
                1. veteran66
                  veteran66 22 November 2015 21: 52 New
                  -3
                  Quote: IS-80
                  But then let us also compare the USSR of the 80s with the Russian Empire of the year 1905.

                  and how will we compare? It’s better to compare my life in the 70s and the lives of my children in the 2000s, especially since the criteria are the same, and the lives are different and my children now live much better than I did in their years
                  1. IS-80
                    IS-80 22 November 2015 22: 11 New
                    +2
                    Quote: veteran66
                    and how will we compare? It’s better to compare my life in the 70s and the lives of my children in the 2000s, especially since the criteria are the same, and the lives are different and my children now live much better than I did in their years

                    And you wait a bit to rejoice. The global economic crisis has not gone away. The most interesting is ahead. So let's see how your favorite capitalism, which provoked him to cope with it. smile
                    1. Ermak
                      Ermak 23 November 2015 06: 40 New
                      +1
                      I would not call our time capitalism, not even NEP. In our country, we have now left the measurements of a person’s residence a la the end of the 80s of a hunchback, with the exception of state obligations to a person, they were simply excluded, plus chemistry in food (so that the poorest do not die of hunger), even people with wealth cannot guarantee buy in kind. What is difficult to say now. They didn’t starve in the USSR, but also didn’t live (maybe only the top of the party), but there were obligations to ordinary people: school, hospital, medicine, pension, housing, cultural development and more. Now they are not there - this is the main contradiction with modern foreign policy, which is very alarming.
                    2. veteran66
                      veteran66 23 November 2015 19: 47 New
                      -2
                      Quote: IS-80
                      The global economic crisis has not gone away. The most interesting is ahead.

                      These crises have passed more than once, even a period of cyclicality has been determined, so that everything is in normal mode. In addition, the childhood of my children has already ended, already adults and again live better than I did in their years)))
                2. veteran66
                  veteran66 23 November 2015 19: 45 New
                  0
                  Quote: IS-80
                  Of course, rethinking the experience and getting rid of those shortcomings that were inherent in the USSR and destroyed it.

                  You know, if grandmother had Faberge, then that would be grandfather ...
  15. tank64rus
    tank64rus 22 November 2015 15: 05 New
    +9
    During the revolution, officers divided almost evenly. This happened because the majority of the officer corps was lost during the war. Those who were called up from the reserve and graduated from wartime courses were mostly non-members. Although the revolution was everything. The general was a nobleman from pillar nobles Bonch-Bruevich, Count Ignatiev, and the generals were the peasant son Denikin, the son of a simple Cossack, General Kornilov, etc. In my family, half were for the reds, half for the whites. Not going to blame the wrong ones. Everyone had their own truth. It was their war.
  16. V.ic
    V.ic 22 November 2015 17: 21 New
    +7
    Well, who did the “comrade” Trotsky & Sº work for? It doesn’t bother you that the ghoul I mentioned before the February Revolution worked together with Khaim Yurovsky (organizer of the ritual murder of Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov’s family) for banker Yakov Schiff. Many thanks to Joseph Vissarionovich, who removed this nest from the face of the earth and thinned the circle of accomplices of the "demon of revolution".
    1. Korvo
      Korvo 22 November 2015 19: 07 New
      0
      Quote: V.ic
      the organizer of the ritual murder of the family of Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov

      I'm sorry, but what is ritualism this murder, that is, what does this indicate?
  17. mitrich
    mitrich 22 November 2015 17: 34 New
    -3
    Yes, most comments are just depressing. "Incomplete ... traitors, that's right ....".
    The Bolsheviks, all these cannibals-haters, destroyed, trampled the Empire, their country into the mud. Destroyed tens of millions of people, as many mutilated fate. Medieval, inquisitorial darkness fell on Russia for decades.
    The tsarist regime, with all its shortcomings, was simply "white and fluffy" in comparison with this ghastly, pakhanovsky regime.
    And how many more people who grew up with this obscurantism mourn for him, as here, in VO, for this musty, dull, stinking and merciless swamp. So you and brought up the same haters.
    And because the country was ruled by dullness and wretchedness, the elite was rotten and kicked out. And it’s so hard for yourself to admit that you were gray and lived almost all your life in it.
    1. sigdoc
      sigdoc 22 November 2015 20: 25 New
      +5
      Pensions, free and affordable education and medicine, aviation, tank, nuclear, space
      natural, rocket, aluminum industry, Moscow metro, BAM, Belomor channel, Dneproges, sambo and gto, and many more scary things, such as 3D films, SO THAT YOU LOOK FOR MEDIEVAL DARKNESS !!!! am
      1. veteran66
        veteran66 22 November 2015 21: 02 New
        -2
        Quote: sigdoc
        SO THIS IS HOW YOU LOOK FOR MEDIEVAL DARKNESS !!!!

        You will be surprised, but the foundations of the space, rocket, aviation industry, BAM and even Sambo were laid in that old Russia, which you call backward, the USSR only continued its development. If these two countries (RI and the USSR) developed in parallel, then it would be possible to compare, and so ... an empty chatter.
        1. IS-80
          IS-80 22 November 2015 21: 30 New
          +1
          Quote: veteran66
          in that old Russia that you call backward

          And so it was. Alas. The country had a whole bunch of unresolved problems. And it’s very sharp. Which World War II exacerbated. But something wasn’t given to that government by their decision.
          1. IS-80
            IS-80 22 November 2015 22: 32 New
            0
            Quote: IS-80
            Which World War II exacerbated.

            Taki was wrong. World War One. hi
          2. veteran66
            veteran66 23 November 2015 19: 50 New
            -3
            Quote: IS-80
            But something wasn’t given to that government by their decision.

            Well, yes, but with the comms of power, everything was decided on “Hurray!”, The Gulag was invented and everything was decided))), but how many people were killed did not interest anyone.
            1. IS-80
              IS-80 24 November 2015 00: 39 New
              +2
              Quote: veteran66
              Well, yes, but with the comms of power, everything was decided on “Hurray!”, The Gulag was invented and everything was decided))), but how many people were killed did not interest anyone.

              And you are very interested in how many peasant children died in Russia due to the lack of normal medical care under the tsar? You somehow do not cry about it at all. And over the people who died in the Gulag you pour crocodile tears. And yes, if you think that the Bolsheviks exclusively with the help of the Gulag solved all the problems, you are very mistaken.
        2. sigdoc
          sigdoc 22 November 2015 21: 55 New
          +2
          Of course, I’m surprised because this is not so. The achievements of the Bolsheviks, which it was stupid to deny, were impossible without global changes in the state (separation of the church from education and state administration, liquidation of estates, landowner side, national politics, reform in education, etc.) to which the tsarist government was incapable.
  18. gendir.grifon
    gendir.grifon 22 November 2015 18: 32 New
    +4
    Enough of Solzhenitsyn’s mantras to repeat about the bloody totalitarian regime. If it were not for this regime, now Russia would not be in any form. Now it seems that it is not Soviet, but bourgeois power, and the civilized west is still coming to the city, but it is proceeding, as it were, to spoil Russia. As under the tsarist regime, people who call themselves the "elite" now rule us. But in fact the same bloodsuckers in the bulk. Only before there were all sorts of princes and counts, who scorned the people, and now it’s just a thief and all scum with the same attitude towards people as garbage. I’ve been involved in identifying tax and economic crimes for 15 years, so I know this bargain "elite". As you know, everything is known in comparison, the most just system is socialist.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 22 November 2015 18: 55 New
        +4
        Quote: mitrich
        And you have enough Bolshevik tales to tell

        Kakbe, dear - the RF is at least 50 percent at the moment and now lives off of the inheritance left over from the "system that has shown its complexity."

        How old are you? The very system that - caught, or only read the Internet? It’s painfully familiar rhetoric lol
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. mitrich
          mitrich 22 November 2015 19: 47 New
          +4
          Godikov, 54, as an un respectable one, and I lived decently in this grayness, I know by hearsay. So in front of me, as a guru, it is not necessary to expose oneself. And don’t have to label people with a different opinion. I do not detract from your opinion, but it is not necessary to humiliate me either. Only balanced and correct arguments. hi
          According to your post: how many councils lived off the legacy of the Republic of Ingushetia? And how many values ​​were sold to the hated capitalists?
          And at the same time twice destroyed the country in the 20s and 90s. Creators, damn it. request
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 22 November 2015 20: 07 New
            +5
            Quote: mitrich
            Godikov to me, kakbe dear, 54

            Oh, almost peers laughing

            Quote: mitrich
            I lived in this grayness decently

            I lived the same amount of grayness now - an order of magnitude (or even two) more than at that time. IMHO.

            Quote: mitrich
            how many councils lived off the legacy of the Republic of Ingushetia?

            Without a clue. But for sure - less than 25 years (1991-2016 is already 25 years old).

            Quote: mitrich
            And how many values ​​were sold to the hated capitalists?

            I don’t know. I only know that when the mattress partners offered 100 steam locomotives behind the bars of the Summer Garden (in St. Petersburg), the Bolsheviks did not sell it .. somehow wink

            Quote: mitrich
            twice destroyed the country in the 20s and 90s

            Um .. IMHO mix warm with soft.

            - the whole "white movement" was a project aimed at the economic destruction and dismemberment of the Republic of Ingushetia. The project, by the way, is not at all Russian. And it was financed (the white movement) - not from Russia at all. There wouldn’t be this - there would be no collapse of the times of the 20s. Dispute?
            - in the 90s - a similar garbage. Only the “strongly degenerated communists” were breaking up, and they were breaking up completely purposefully. They were tired of pretending to be “people's property managers”, they wanted the property itself. Myself, beloved. Well funded again .. well, you get the point. And where does it seem to be “advice”?

            Quote: mitrich
            Only weighted and valid arguments

            This is not an argument yet, so, a prelude .. your opinion is so .. unexpected, let's say that I don’t even know what to argue with request
          2. IS-80
            IS-80 22 November 2015 20: 09 New
            +4
            Quote: mitrich
            And at the same time twice destroyed the country in the 20s and 90s. Creators, damn it.

            Remind me who forced Nicholas II to sign the abdication. And also tell who there in the 17th century Troubles arranged after which the country lay in ruins. Tell us how it happened that Ukraine and Belarus were under the rule of the Poles. Why such a rout in Russia was from the invasion of Batu. Also swear komunyaki blame?
            1. mitrich
              mitrich 22 November 2015 20: 25 New
              +3
              They, they swear, and the Tower of Babel collapsed too laughing
              You can argue here until hoarseness, the main thing is not to fight, you can’t arrange a new civil one. lol
              From myself, I can say: back, I don’t want to "tank in USESESER". Now it’s not sugar, it's hard, there are problems above the roof. But this is LIFE and life problems, and not those pseudo worries: how to get sausages- boots- jeans — a normal jacket and not tsigey with a wrapper around the neck (s) and so on the list for ... nts sheets. Why did your commies bring the country! That's why it collapsed.
              And yes, of course, it’s not the Gorbachev-Yeltsin Communists who again ruined and plundered the country, but the white-emigrant introducers. lol
              1. IS-80
                IS-80 22 November 2015 20: 48 New
                +1
                Quote: mitrich
                Why did your commies bring the country! That's why it collapsed.

                And before that, your favorite white elite. But what other kind of communists were to 91? In form, yes, in content, it’s just your white elite.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. mitrich
                  mitrich 22 November 2015 21: 15 New
                  -4
                  Well, yes, yes, true communists are in the 20s and 50s. With packs of “warm heart, cold mind and bloody hands” they shot, drowned and sent people to Siberia to hard labor by trains, millions invaded poverty. Real defenders of the oppressed!
                  For me, this is the white elite, which is a couple of orders of magnitude more humane, closer.
                  1. Cat man null
                    Cat man null 22 November 2015 21: 33 New
                    +2
                    Quote: mitrich
                    real communists are in the 20s - 50s. Who, with a "warm heart, cold mind and bloody hands" in batches fired, drowned and echelons exiled people to Siberia, to penal servitude, millions invaded poverty

                    I note - then you were not in the project either (like me, however .. he said the same age). Therefore, everything that you know about that period, you know .. indirectly. And if you take into account that the information about that period (absolutely, by the way, polar) is simply immeasurable - then here you just chose the version that seemed closer to you.

                    There is nothing to argue about. On the taste and color, all the markers .. different (s)

                    Quote: mitrich
                    For me it’s so white elite, which is a couple of orders of magnitude more humane, closer

                    Um .. and the crunch of the French rolls, apparently ..

                    As for the "humanity of the white elite" - in vain, you also have a lot of information .. diverse. And most importantly - ge "white elite" ordered the music. She, this elite, went there for extras.

                    Somehow request
                  2. IS-80
                    IS-80 22 November 2015 21: 47 New
                    +1
                    Quote: mitrich
                    For me, this is the white elite, which is a couple of orders of magnitude more humane, closer.

                    Is this the one that led the country to a severe crisis and forced to sign Nicholas II abdication?
                    Quote: mitrich
                    With packs of “warm heart, cold mind and bloody hands” they shot, drowned and sent people to Siberia to hard labor by trains, millions invaded poverty.

                    Remind me how often revolutions happen without sacrifices. Alas, it was always and everywhere. Both in England and in France. As if by the way, they provided free accessible medicine, universal free education, won the worst war in the history of mankind, conducted industrialization, created a powerful scientific school. All that Nichrome did not cope with your white elite. For which you are crying here.
                    1. mitrich
                      mitrich 22 November 2015 22: 10 New
                      -5
                      Tales have been read from the newspaper Pravda about free and affordable education and medicine?
                      I will not write much, only from the family.
                      Dad was born in the early 30s in the Smolensk village. Poverty is hopeless, the hard labor of cheating on the "native" collective farm for workdays, check marks in the statement. The father of the pope, grandfather, in the 37th was taken away and met. And along with his grandfather and the last cattle was stolen, saying to the last: "and you die the seed of the enemy yourself." Grandmother was exhausted, raising 5 children, did not die. In winter, they took turns to school, one sheepskin coat, two boots. They wrote on the sidelines of newspapers. And what kind of study, when there is nothing to eat.
                      What is the medicine in the coffin ??? They survived despite the fact that their parents did not offend their health and the grandmother did the impossible.
                      And as they grew up and did not die, as they wished, let us join the army, to give the duty to the motherland. But what about! Native Soviet power has brought you up and fed you.
                      It may be that your ancestors were treated in special hospitals and bought food in special dispensers, and mine drank completely from this "people's" government. Enough!
                      Do your children want this? I did not fuck!
                      1. IS-80
                        IS-80 22 November 2015 22: 28 New
                        +6
                        Quote: mitrich
                        It may be that your ancestors were treated in special hospitals and bought food in special dispensers, and mine drank completely from this "people's" government. Enough!

                        Stop, what about the tsar’s hospital there, where all the peasants were treated free of charge, and now the Bolsheviks came to the oath and destroyed the hospital? And as I understand it, the 37 year old has not ended yet, every day the last cattle is taken away and the mat is covered?
                        You know, my relatives with special distributors were somehow unlucky. And there was everything. And they planted and shot both for the cause and not for the cause. That's just all indiscriminately blame me, unlike you are not going to. And I try to objectively look at the story.
                      2. mitrich
                        mitrich 22 November 2015 22: 49 New
                        -3
                        And under the king, and without him, most importantly without the Communists, my ancestral peasants would have had land. And they would work on their land no less than under the advice, but for themselves. And accordingly, they would live richer, and without all these utopian "Sovetskie" nishtyaks, they could afford education and treatment. For this, no utopian people's power, driving “live labor” like cattle into collective farms, is needed. The peasant needs the land and that would not have climbed either with Marx-Leninists or with Soros and Chubais. hi
                      3. IS-80
                        IS-80 22 November 2015 23: 31 New
                        +3
                        Quote: mitrich
                        And under the king, and without him, most importantly without the Communists, my ancestral peasants would have had land.

                        Is not a fact. Your dreams are capitalism to the bulb.
                        Quote: mitrich
                        And accordingly, they would live richer, and without all these utopian "Sovetskie" nishtyaks, they could afford education and treatment.

                        These are your dreams and no more. And it could have happened like that. Crop failure, ruin, everyone died of starvation. Or so. 1941, the Third Reich is finishing off the remnants of the Russian army in the Urals because industrialization has dragged on again, so neither tanks nor artillery or airplanes in the right quantity again, and again disorder and staggering in our heads because a well-fed hungry man doesn’t mean theft in the rear on an appalling scale. the peasant and the worker are starving, and the industrialists the latifundists are furious with fat. Further. Work from morning till night for the German master. And if the arrears are shot subhuman. Purely for preventive purposes.
                        Quote: mitrich
                        The peasant needs the land and that would not have climbed either with Marx-Leninists or with Soros and Chubais.

                        These luboks you leave for stupid people. Do not want to think, then they will think for you and most often not in your favor. And learn to look at life wider. And not only from the point of view of Tse, Tse is not mine and they did not give me.
                      4. mitrich
                        mitrich 22 November 2015 23: 47 New
                        -3
                        Well, what about your luboks for smart people?
                        Private, personal, for you, this is bad. Again, fists, bourgeois, exploiters. For the Bolsheviks, neither man nor country meant anything. The goal is world communism. And for this, we’ll inflame the world fire, all in ruins and bourgeois and fist and proletariat and a country with Europe, everything is in the furnace!
                        And with this idea, for 80 years, they first rotted their country and people and then Eastern Europe. I mean under Stalin, then there was another calico, they fed this whole gang, and then all the nude Asia, Africa, and Latin. And who fed-built-armed? Armed with the idea of ​​Marxism-Leninism-Stalinism, our ancestors, fathers, grandfathers and we partly participated.
                        Here is your "learning to look at life wider." Seen enough that with naked jo.oy remained.
                        I want my own, personal, private, and not a communal apartment and "a bottle of kefir half a loaf" (c) hi
                      5. IS-80
                        IS-80 23 November 2015 00: 20 New
                        +6
                        Quote: mitrich
                        Well, what about your luboks for smart people?

                        I have no luboks. I have whole pictures. smile
                        Quote: mitrich
                        Private, personal, for you, this is bad.

                        Probably not.
                        Quote: mitrich
                        Again, fists, bourgeois, exploiters.

                        Yeah, and again and again. This is an objective reality.
                        Quote: mitrich
                        For the Bolsheviks, neither man nor country meant anything.

                        In how. Strong. Just like panzenfraust Goethe. And under the kings of the peasants did they indulge in buns?
                        Quote: mitrich
                        Here is your "learning to look at life wider." Seen enough that with naked jo.oy remained.

                        Wrong way looked. It happens. In history more than once.
                        Quote: mitrich
                        I want my own, personal, private, and not a communal apartment and a "half-loaf of kefir bottle"

                        Ndaaaaaa. And these people are telling us for morality. And sell your homeland for your private personal? Well, how do you have to make a choice to sacrifice private or homeland?
                      6. mitrich
                        mitrich 23 November 2015 00: 37 New
                        -4
                        I'll try and I, looking at you, go from lubok to a picture. lol
                        Yes, I speak for morality, just like you. But your morality coexists with love for the cannibalistic regime, which has squeezed your compatriots from the light. What kind of rubber do you have, morality is. what
                        Without private there will be no state, your favorite system has shown it. "Everything around is folk, everything around me." But essentially a draw, come in all, take it all. When jo.a is naked, and everything around is just “yours” for half the world, like this, in my opinion, does not contribute to the formation of the image of the Motherland.
                        It’s possible to step aside for the Motherland as private, but not for the world revolution and the happiness of the proletarians of the whole world, for whom our ancestors, under the yoke of your beloved Communists, have sacrificed, giving up the latter and being left without this particular.
                        I am glad that our dialogue did not go hand to hand, in the 4th revolution. hi
                      7. IS-80
                        IS-80 23 November 2015 01: 15 New
                        +4
                        Quote: mitrich
                        Yes, I speak for morality, just like you. But your morality coexists with love for the cannibalistic regime, which has squeezed your compatriots from the light. What kind of rubber do you have, morality is.

                        Please answer simple questions. When Peter III and Paul I killed the communists were to blame? When the peasants were thrown into the land again in 1861, the communists were to blame? Sagittarius Peter I who he executed the tyrant or the great Russian Tsar? Nicholas I was dispersed by the Decembrists, and this is your very white elite. Who is the Bolshevik?
                3. The comment was deleted.
                4. veteran66
                  veteran66 23 November 2015 21: 19 New
                  -2
                  Quote: IS-80
                  Or so. 1941, the Third Reich kills the remnants of the Russian army in the Urals because industrialization again dragged on again, so neither tanks nor artillery

                  These are your dreams, because without the shells and tanks in the WWII, the tsarist army didn’t let the Germans go further than Belarus, and the Red Army rolled back to the Volga and Moscow, although they were preparing for war from the 38th. And there wouldn’t be any war
                5. IS-80
                  IS-80 24 November 2015 00: 32 New
                  +1
                  Quote: veteran66
                  These are your dreams, because without the shells and tanks in the WWII, the tsarist army didn’t let the Germans go further than Belarus

                  And in 1812, the tsarist army burned Moscow.
                  Quote: veteran66
                  And there wouldn’t be any war

                  Yes, of course. The Bolsheviks organized the Munich conspiracy. In general, they are to blame for all the wars that Russia waged from the Paleolithic to the present day.
                6. nail
                  nail 24 November 2015 00: 33 New
                  0
                  And why France could not hold out for two weeks, although in World War I fought against Germany with dignity?
            2. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 23 November 2015 00: 32 New
              +3
              Quote: mitrich
              And under the king, and without him, most importantly without the Communists, my ancestral peasants would have had land.

              Your ancestors of peasants with acre of ragged portcuts, but bull bubbles on the windows instead of glasses, there would be nothing yes
              And they taught to write and read at the Soviets, the dark peasants were.
              Grandmother told (born in 1906) that village tram and steam locomotives, having got into the city even in the 20s, were frightened, and instead of signing, they put a thumb blackened on paper!
              Something like that, dear ...
            3. The comment was deleted.
            4. Bekas1967
              Bekas1967 23 November 2015 12: 29 New
              0
              You would live nishtyakovo, landowners exploiting peasants ... Of course, it’s a shame, you see, you divided the land into all!
          3. veteran66
            veteran66 23 November 2015 21: 16 New
            -2
            Quote: IS-80
            Stop, what about the tsar’s hospital there, where all the peasants were treated free of charge, and now the Bolsheviks came to the oath and destroyed the hospital?

            So it was like that, there were zemstvo hospitals where peasants were treated free of charge, and then the zemstvos were dispersed, doctors, like a kulak or counter-revolutionary element at a cost (those who refused to treat the Reds) or to the red army. For example, I studied at the school, which the local landowner built for peasant children, the Soviet government for 70 years only made an extension to it in the form of a gym, and the liberals built, or rather almost completed, but the money was not enough. You can check Tunoshyon High School.
          4. IS-80
            IS-80 24 November 2015 00: 49 New
            +1
            Quote: veteran66
            So it was so, there were zemstvo hospitals where peasants were treated free of charge, and then the zemstvos were dispersed, doctors, like a kulak or counter-revolutionary element at a cost

            And how many were there? One and a half pieces to the province? Yeah, they shot everyone, they didn’t forget anyone. And until 1991, people self-medicated in the country.
            Quote: veteran66
            For example, I studied at the school, which the local landowner built for peasant children, the Soviet government for 70 years only made an extension to it in the form of a gym, and the liberals built, or rather almost completed, but the money was not enough. You can check Tunoshyon High School.

            You have been thrown a bone from the master's table, and you are glad. Ndaa ... Well, what is your choice. That's just me and you out of the way. And in my city there are several schools built by your unloved Soviet government. And as far as I remember, there was only one. Like this.
      2. Bekas1967
        Bekas1967 23 November 2015 12: 26 New
        +1
        And what, in tsarist Russia, the peasants received medical assistance through education, and the workers' social security guarantees? What you write about is what the tsarist Russia has come to ... Poverty, child mortality, theft and lawlessness of local officials (read classics) ..
      3. veteran66
        veteran66 23 November 2015 21: 25 New
        -1
        Quote: Bekas1967
        And what, in tsarist Russia, the peasants received medical assistance by education, and workers social security guarantees?

        Yes!
        Quote: Bekas1967
        Poverty, child mortality, theft and lawlessness of local officials (read the classics) ..
        These classics, whom Communist ideologists palm off on us, were called dissidents, you read Soviet dissidents, you will say the same about the USSR. We were not allowed to read Aksyonov or, say, the second volume of dead souls at school. Read, maybe you’ll find out the truth about Mother Russia.
      4. nail
        nail 24 November 2015 00: 36 New
        0
        What is the second volume, you rave. Gogol burned the second volume. After that, he died about a week later.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Sling cutter
    Sling cutter 23 November 2015 00: 48 New
    +3
    Quote: mitrich
    With packs of “warm heart, cold mind and bloody hands” they shot, drowned and sent people to Siberia, to hard labor by trains, millions invaded poverty. Real defenders of the oppressed!
    For me, this is the white elite, which is a couple of orders of magnitude more humane, closer.

    you probably Roizman chief methodologist lol
    You don’t forget to mention for completeness how the Bolsheviks, led by the "bloody" Lenin, ate peasant children wassat
  • veteran66
    veteran66 22 November 2015 21: 08 New
    0
    Quote: IS-80
    Also swear komunyaki blame?

    And who is to blame and what does the current system have to do with it? And there was a time of troubles in Russia when there was no king. So the current one lasts from the 17th year
    1. IS-80
      IS-80 22 November 2015 21: 58 New
      +3
      Quote: veteran66
      And who is to blame and what does the current system have to do with it?

      Who's guilty? Of course, the Communists are the same bastards in the 17th century, all arranged.
      Quote: veteran66
      And there was a time of troubles in Russia when there was no king. So the current one lasts from the 17th year

      It’s in your head that it lasts. Because of the unwillingness to objectively look at the historical process.
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 23 November 2015 00: 39 New
        +4
        Quote: IS-80
        Because of the unwillingness to objectively look at the historical process.

        I am sometimes surprised, to put it mildly, by people, especially those who are over forty with some sort of new historical "truth" and not understanding that even their own existence, not to mention the education received for free by housing, they owe to the USSR.
        "There were people, like people and ...." (Brother-2)
        1. IS-80
          IS-80 23 November 2015 01: 26 New
          0
          Quote: Stroporez
          I am sometimes surprised, to put it mildly, by people, especially those who are over forty with some sort of new historical "truth" and not understanding that even their own existence, not to mention the education received for free by housing, they owe to the USSR.

          And the categories are sometimes amazing. For example, those who are nichrome neither earlier under socialism nor now under capitalism have achieved anything in life. Or a group of companions of the descendants of those unfortunate people who lived below the Pale of Settlement and the last horseradish without salt to eat up. Or those who from the most recent poor peasants during the USSR became an elite. You wonder right.
        2. veteran66
          veteran66 23 November 2015 21: 31 New
          -1
          Quote: Stroporez
          not the understanding that even with their own existence, not to mention the education received free of charge by housing, they owe it to the USSR.

          maybe not thanks, but contrary to? And my existence I am grateful to my ancestors. You have a strange logic, although no, the usual shovel, in life you need to earn everything yourself, and not wait until someone serves, this is the lot of the poor on the porch.
          1. IS-80
            IS-80 24 November 2015 01: 04 New
            +2
            Quote: veteran66
            maybe not thanks, but contrary to? And my existence I am grateful to my ancestors. You have a strange logic, although no, the usual shovel, in life you need to earn everything yourself, and not wait until someone serves, this is the lot of the poor on the porch.

            You do not measure people by yourself. If you are ready to strangle yourself for a penny and if for you the meaning of life is to row for yourself and despise everyone who is poorer than you, then not all of them are. And it’s not your morality to read. A person who defends the system here with foam at the mouth for whom it’s completely normal for the whole country to collect money for the treatment of a seriously ill child with essemems while some kind of ladies in curly-haired women bathe in a private plane flying there or scatter money from the balcony to see how people are running after them.
  • mitrich
    mitrich 22 November 2015 18: 50 New
    0
    And you have enough to tell the Bolshevik tales. The regime that destroyed the whole country, destroyed millions of people, you have a savior of the fatherland. What, the Soviet elite did not disdain people? How fat in the hunger and war years, in besieged St. Petersburg in particular. Yes, and destroyed everyone for the slightest reason and without. And they lied, lied: "freedom-equality-brotherhood." And your most just system has rested in the Bose everywhere, and everywhere has shown its failure and bestiality.
    For good intentions ...
    No, there is still, in the DPRK. Bored, well, to Comrade Eun. You can stretch a couple of years in a concentration camp.
  • veteran66
    veteran66 22 November 2015 21: 05 New
    +2
    Quote: gendir.grifon
    so I know this huckster "elite".

    if you know all this "elite", then why are you hiding the fact that they are sons and grandchildren of those "faithful Leninist-Stalinists" of the 50s and 70s who were educated in Soviet schools and institutes? Do you think they came to us from Mars or poorly learned their biographies?
  • Jmbg
    Jmbg 22 November 2015 19: 19 New
    0
    Well, why didn’t they tell where the children went to 140 Russians after Turkey? In total, Bulgaria has received, fed and settled more than 000. For all who consider us to be enemies.
    1. mitrich
      mitrich 22 November 2015 19: 53 New
      +4
      Thanks for that! hi
      But this does not negate the fact that you are always (two worlds now) in another trench, look at us again in the crosshairs of the sight.
      And we, our ancestors, REALLY shed blood for you and gave the most precious life. And you are like a weather vane, in the wind, where an extra penny rang, you are there against us. That’s all your REAL gratitude. request
      1. Basil50
        Basil50 22 November 2015 20: 44 New
        +2
        Bulgaria as a country, and Bulgarians as a people, feel guilty only in relation to Turkey, and did everything to meet the requirements of the Turks. So * whites * were sheltered in the hope of creating support from them for the king of the Bulgarians and nothing more. Only consonants were attached to any meanness in relation to the SOVIET PEOPLE. So what about nobility is not necessary, not that case.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Peterhof 73
      Peterhof 73 22 November 2015 23: 53 New
      +2
      Quote: Jmbg
      Well, why didn’t they tell where the children went to 140 Russians after Turkey? In total, Bulgaria has received, fed and settled more than 000. For all who consider us to be enemies.

      Nobody in their right mind thinks that the enemies of the Bulgarians. This time. 50 approximately soldiers, junkers, officers of the Russian Army of the TWO years started off on the deserted island of Galipoli in the Mediterranean Sea, where even starving families, they maintained the military order of military units, banners, etc. attributes of the Army. These are two. Bulgaria had nowhere to go, since the victorious countries in the WWI were at that time, and the Russian Army was considered allied (and was so), and France helped than it could in the placement of military personnel of the allied forces who found themselves in the status of political refugees (including on the territory of defeated Bulgaria) These are three. Most Russians turned up in Serbia and France. These are four. Please do not write what you do not know. These are five. The figures you have given for finding a shelter in Bulgaria are greatly overstated. These are six. In principle, in our time everything is easy to verify, well, going to Pedivikia. These are seven, well, there will be. God bless you.
  • Ivan Tartugai
    Ivan Tartugai 22 November 2015 19: 50 New
    0
    He also tried to serve Stogov to the emperor, then to the interim government, then red and finally white. He was always “afloat”, he was always in the highest posts under the emperor, made a brilliant career at the age of 45, became a lieutenant general, and under the interim government “Stogov took up the post of chief of staff of the armies of the Southwestern Front, and from October he temporarily performed the post of commander in chief of the armies of the front, ”then with the Reds,“ he became the first chief of the All-Russian General Staff ”of the Red Army, and finally with the White, also in high positions. From this we can already conclude I tried only for myself, and tried it there, and here I took a bite. I was looking for where the porridge is fatter.
  • gendir.grifon
    gendir.grifon 22 November 2015 21: 13 New
    +2
    The fact that the civil war in Russia has not ended to this day is for sure. The separation line also runs through families. Now the reasons are about the same as in 1917, only there is no military conflict so far there is no territory of Russia. The same egregious stratification in society, many enemies within the country and beyond. And the bourgeoisie, the so-called "elite", not wanting to return the loot after the collapse of the USSR.
  • Kim Klimov
    Kim Klimov 22 November 2015 23: 05 New
    +2
    The civil war, after the 1917 year, never ended. It will end only when the power in the country will again be in Russian hands.
  • Truth-lovers
    Truth-lovers 23 November 2015 00: 26 New
    0
    At that time, 145 693 people left Russia (including 50 soldiers and officers), not counting ship crews.
    The article is very high quality, only the first photo is off topic. Too many people sat in the rear, and did not fight at the front for their own lives ...

    He could not imagine Russia without the "pious and autocratic" and without the "Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia." Any other Russia was perceived by him as devoid of soul.
    What golden words!

    Quote: apro
    in exile he worked against Russia and whether he had a homeland.
    The motherland did not exist just at that international trash who came to organize a revolution in our Fatherland.

    Quote: apro
    This is the color of society betrayed your king betrayed the country and did nothing to prevent the massacre, the Bolsheviks lesser evil
    Lesser evil?!? Compared to whom? Who covered the whole concentration camps, recall?

    Quote: holgert
    How many years have passed, and the Civil War did NOT end ----- an example of diametrically opposed comments on this article ...
    Yes, it is a fact. Therefore, I say that the Russians need to study the experience of Franco on genuine national reconciliation.

    Quote: gendir.grifon
    The heroization of the white and other bourgeois will not lead to anything good. They kind of fought for their Russia.

    Firstly, among the white "bourgeois" practically nonexistent. They basically withdrew their capital and dumped themselves among the first. And the majority of whites are nationally-minded Christians.

    Quote: Sergey S.
    Romanovs - saints, rich and honest and smart ...
    But the time will come ... from a spark a flame will burn ...
    Are you not enough? 70 years of a bloody nightmare and tens of millions of ruined lives - and all is not enough?!?

    Quote: IS-80
    Remind me how often revolutions happen without sacrifices. Alas, it was always and everywhere. Both in England and in France. As if by the way, they provided free accessible medicine, universal free education, won the worst war in the history of mankind, conducted industrialization, created a powerful scientific school. All that Nichrome did not cope with your white elite.
    Or maybe these revolutions are not needed, huh? A free "social network" and without any revolution is in normal countries ... And do not recall - why was industrialization needed and at what cost? (and without it, RI was one of the leaders of the global economy)
    1. IS-80
      IS-80 23 November 2015 00: 45 New
      +3
      Quote: True-Loving
      Or maybe these revolutions are not needed, huh?

      Well tell as possible without revolution.
      Quote: True-Loving
      A free "social network" and without any revolution is in normal countries ...

      Are you serious?
      Quote: True-Loving
      And do not recall - why was industrialization needed and at what cost? (and without it, RI was one of the leaders of the global economy)

      How many tanks were released in the Russian Empire? How many planes and in comparison with other countries of the Entente and the Triple Alliance? What did we have with heavy artillery there?
  • qwert_s
    qwert_s 23 November 2015 09: 15 New
    +3
    It may be enough to moan which “heroes” the Bolsheviks destroyed. Recall the Soviet Union, what a great country was. And where were the famous officers who took the oath. And they swear an oath once and for a lifetime, or they don’t swear at all. They also behaved like whores! So stop moaning ...........
  • bug
    bug 23 November 2015 17: 20 New
    0
    Quote: IS-80
    How many tanks were released in the Russian Empire? How many planes and in comparison with other countries of the Entente and the Triple Alliance? What did we have with heavy artillery there?

    Ahem ... I don’t understand something, is the industrialization of a country measured in the number of tanks? If so, Germany at that time was a terribly backward country with its A7V in the amount of as much as 20pcs. And how many tanks did the USSR have in the 41st? What about airplanes and heavy artillery? And where was the front line after three years of war in WWI and where in six months of WWII?

    And let's look at the picture as a whole, so at a vskidka from Wikipedia:
    “On the eve of the revolution, the country's national income amounted to 16,4 billion rubles (7,4% of the global total). According to this indicator, the Russian Empire took fourth place after the USA, Germany and the British Empire.

    State budget from 1031 million rubles. in 1894 it increased, in 1916 almost four times - 4 billion. And this despite the fact that railway tariffs were reduced, redemption payments and many taxes were canceled, and in 1914 the state sales of alcohol were closed.

    Taxes in the empire were significantly lower than in other countries. Direct taxes per inhabitant in the Russian Empire amounted to 1 rubles. 3 cop., And indirect - 11 rubles. 5 kopecks (98% of annual income). In France, they amounted to 7,2 and 12,25 rubles, respectively (10%); in Germany - 6,5 and 12,97 rubles (9,64%); in the UK - 7,7 and 26,75 rubles (15,86%)

    At the beginning of the 14th century, the Russian Empire, along with the United States, occupied a leading position in world agriculture. This is especially evident in the example of grain crops: in the first 15 years of the 10th century, the sown area increased by 20%, grain yield by 5637%, and grain harvest per capita by more than 92,5%. Gross grain harvest - 1 million poods (1 million tons) - 647,8 place in the world (half the world rye crop, second place in wheat harvest), as well as 10 place in grain export - 610 million poods (651 1 tons were exported) ) cereals. The total volume of grain exports amounted to 77576 million rubles. Russia occupied the first place in the production and export of butter (XNUMX tons of butter were exported).

    Number of factories:
    1854 9944 pcs.
    1896 38401 pcs.

    The latest estimates of the growth rate of Russia's national income are more modest, the American researcher P. Gregory estimates the average growth for the period 1885-1913 at 3,25% per year (with an increase to 4,7% per year during the period of greatest growth (1889-1904 )), which is estimated as a level of growth slightly higher than developed European countries, but lower than the United States "

    I don’t understand one thing, everyone says that the Republic of Ingushetia was very backward, some kind of “direct Zimbabwe”. But if you dig a little bit, it turns out that the pace of development was high, industrialization was in full swing, etc., etc.
    1. IS-80
      IS-80 24 November 2015 01: 37 New
      +1
      Quote: error
      I don’t understand one thing, everyone says that the Republic of Ingushetia was very backward, some kind of “direct Zimbabwe”. But if you dig a little bit, it turns out that the pace of development was high, industrialization was in full swing, etc., etc.

      All these statistics are very wonderful, only one fact is permissible. In Germany, and now more taxes than ours, does this mean the Germans live worse? The same is in Finland, Great Britain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Canada, Austria, the USA.