4,9 billion rubles for unused supercomputers

53
4,9 billion rubles for unused supercomputers

(c) www.cnews.ru


How the state wanted to help strategically important industries

During the audit of the use of budgetary funds aimed at financing the creation of Innopolis, the Accounts Chamber discovered the absence of practical results from another budget project - “Development of supercomputers and grid technologies” (from the English. Grid - grid, network; - Ed.) . The project was approved in 2009 by the Commission under President Dmitry Medvedev on modernization and technical development of the economy.

The aim of the project was the creation of domestic supercomputer simulation technology for enterprises of high-tech industries.

"Historically, to work with supercomputers, it was necessary to have physical access to them," explains the head of the project, the Information Democracy Foundation, former Deputy Minister of Communications, Ilya Massuh. - With the advent of the Internet, it became possible to get remote access to supercomputers. But conventional communication channels are not enough to transmit all the results that supercomputers receive, and therefore the need arose to create a dedicated communication network. ”

Grid network without consumers


In 2010-2012 4,93 billion were allocated from the federal budget for the project implementation, including rubles, including 750 million rubles through the Ministry of Communications and Mass Communications (the Ministry submitted these data to the analytical center under the Government in 2013). The main consumer of budgetary funds was the state corporation Rosatom (for example, in 2010, it received 1,1 billion rubles for this purpose).

In 2012, the construction of the grid infrastructure was completed. According to Rosatom, by this time the total performance of the supercomputers installed in the state corporation's data centers amounted to 2610 Tflops with the Tflops embedded in the 1400 project. As part of the project, a base series of compact supercomputers was created, which made it possible to reduce the thematic gap from the US by 50.

It also created software for simulation modeling and created virtual models for aircraft manufacturing, the nuclear industry, the rocket and space industry, and the automotive industry.

Commission abolished, forgot about supercomputers


However, the introduction of supercomputer and grid technologies by the project consumers (strategic sectors) did not happen, the Accounting Chamber states. Moreover, the 160 million rubles that the Ministry of Communications and Mass Media should have received from the federal budget for this project were transferred by the ministry to the construction of Innopolis in Tatarstan (that year Nikolay Nikiforov was an active supporter of the development of Innopolis). No further funding was provided to the grid.

The reasons for the loss of interest in the supercomputer project and the grid network lie in the fact that in the summer of 2012, after Vladimir Putin became president, the Commission on Modernization was liquidated. Instead, the Presidential Council on Economic Modernization and Innovative Development was formed. As the Ministry of Communications and Mass Media informed the Accounts Chamber, the issue of continuity by the Council’s work on the commission’s work, and, accordingly, the issue of amending projects previously approved by the commission, was not resolved.

Security Council is looking for a responsible


In the spring of 2013, the Ministry of Communications and Mass Media made a report on the construction of a grid network at a meeting of the Security Council’s interdepartmental commission on information security. According to the Ministry of Communications and Mass Media, which is contained in the document of the Accounts Chamber, in order to further implement the project and use its results, it is necessary to determine the state customer - the project coordinator.

Having heard the report of the ministry, the commission recommended the Government to pay attention to the measures for interdepartmental coordination, including the definition of the authorized body, as well as a set of measures and funding for further periods. At the current moment, the Presidential Office of the Security Council is expected to instruct the President to work out the feasibility of further measures for the development of grid networks.

What is a grid network


Now the grid network consists of an 21 facility in nine Russian cities. In particular, seven facilities were installed in Moscow: at the supercomputer center of the Russian Academy of Sciences, at Moscow State University (now its equipment has been transferred to the server Ministry of Communications), at the Voskhod Scientific Research Institute, as well as at communication centers on Warsaw highway and Butlerov street.

In the Moscow region there are two objects of the grid network: at the Institute of RAS in Chernogolovka and at the Joint Institute for Nuclear Research in Dubna. Three facilities are located in St. Petersburg: at St. Petersburg State University, St. Petersburg State Polytechnic University and at the site of the RTKomm.ru (Rostelecom subsidiary).

There are objects in Nizhny Novgorod (at the Nizhny Novgorod University), Rostov-on-Don (at the Southern Federal University), Yekaterinburg (at the Ural Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences) and in Kazan (at the Kazan Center of the Russian Academy of Sciences). In each of these four cities, one more object was installed at the sites of RTKomm.ru.

Also, one object is located in the Nizhny Novgorod region - in Sarov (in the All-Russian Research Institute of Experimental Physics).

The last contract
In 2012, the last works on the project were carried out by the Scientific Research Institute “Voskhod”, with which the Ministry of Communications and Science signed a contract for the amount of 180 million rubles. It was signed as a result of the auction with a starting price of 330 million rubles. These funds were used to create design documentation and organizational and administrative documents for the commissioning of the Russian grid network.

Currently, the Ministry of Communications and Mass Media conducts an annual inventory of the grid system. So, as of the end of 2013, it contained equipment with a total value of 260 million rubles. We are talking about the equipment of the network control and monitoring center, storage systems, wiring closets, Cisco marshurtisers, etc.

The Ministry of Communications and Mass Media did not comment on the findings of the Accounts Chamber on this issue. Ilya Massuh believes that the grid project was very necessary, and the reasons for its stoppage should be sought in the political sphere.
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  1. +24
    17 November 2015 11: 38
    Sloppiness and embezzlement ... Where are the methods developed by the NKVD? After all, the people's good has been used up, and now a lot of money is idle ...

    So you just think about it - in the 1918 year - TsAGI was founded (a year after the revolution!), And continued to expand even during the Second World War (the most difficult for the country 1941-42g.)!
    And now, what prevents development?
    1. +23
      17 November 2015 11: 49
      I’m still thinking, they’ll bring the strand there themselves, or are they waiting for the people to start putting them on the pitchfork again ...?!
      1. +7
        17 November 2015 12: 11
        these themselves will not bring order
      2. +2
        17 November 2015 12: 24
        They have something "all right", what should they suggest. And the people and the pitchfork .... I would be glad, but utopia. The people are not the same, they themselves only look at what and where. And how the type of pitchfork is taken - it turns out to be a mess. Not. We don't need a pitchfork.
    2. +4
      17 November 2015 11: 49
      In a hurry, you will make the mouse laugh ...
      Radiophotonics - have you heard?


      Patience.
      Soon the tale says yes.
      It takes a little while to do it ...
      1. +6
        17 November 2015 11: 58
        Quote: attuda
        It takes a little while to get things done.

        At such a pace as in the article, the matter will remain a fairy tale.
    3. +2
      17 November 2015 12: 00
      Quote: Bombardier
      Sloppiness and embezzlement ...

      Quite possible. Especially considering that "grid systems" are actually "a cheap way to get more power. Regards.
    4. +3
      17 November 2015 12: 11
      so earlier, marshals and people's commissars sat down for the vrostvo, and who was leaned against the wall, and now the office has changed and that's it.
      1. +2
        17 November 2015 12: 57
        Who will change the cabinet, they are not changeable, eternal, under the leadership of our everything.
    5. +2
      17 November 2015 12: 30
      Quote: Bombardier
      Sloppiness and embezzlement ... Where are the methods developed by the NKVD? After all, the people's good has been used up, and now a lot of money is idle ...

      So you just think about it - in the 1918 year - TsAGI was founded (a year after the revolution!), And continued to expand even during the Second World War (the most difficult for the country 1941-42g.)!
      And now, what prevents development?

      No, those methods should not be repeated:
      21 October 1937 years A.N. Tupolev, who worked at TsAGI) was arrested on charges of sabotage, belonging to a counter-revolutionary organization. Along with him, many leading TsAGI specialists were arrested.
      We need a rigid system, but without such excesses, when on unproven grounds the best people were arrested and destroyed.
    6. +2
      17 November 2015 12: 39
      Bombardier
      "Where are the methods worked out by the NKVD?"
      Read the transcript of the joint meeting of communications and prosecutors (1935), I repeat once again- 1935
      it happened there, my hair moved as people stole seemingly in firing squad the time.
      The current ones seem to be shkolota against them - when the party maximum was 600 rubles (from Stalin), the team in the Ryazan branch managed to 2,2 million to steal parcels and transfers, somewhere else the head of the post office built a mansion and climbed up after he planted adults near the park trees brought from the forest. In Georgia, a whole system of forged
      transfers. The range in the work of the translation control bureau made it possible to steal 120 thousand rubles.
      Middle Volga Department
      —584 thousand rubles for the entire 1933 and: 1.700
      thousand roubles. for the 9 months of the 1934 (head of the communications department) T. Zharkov).
      In the East Siberian Administration in 1934, the amount of theft and loss reached almost 1 1 / 2 million rubles. (Head of Communications Department Comrade Kazakov).
      Western Siberia — there, according to statistics, waste decreased slightly. So, according to 9 months. 1934 g. Comrade Novikov still counts
      catch up and overtake 1933 g.
      In the Sverdlovsk Communications Directorate, Comrade Sinkov has a theft of over a million in the region.
      In the city of Moscow, which is especially unacceptable, the head of the postal service department, Comrade Stekhov, committed theft of 1.120 million

      And Central Asia, there was not even a sum, it just says, "A lot of stolen goods"

      But this is the coolest fellow fellow
      "The communications worker of the Western Directorate Vladimirov was sentenced to 10 years in prison for forgery and embezzlement, but his forgot to arrest, he left"-
      Reminds nothing, does not cause associations ???

      ZY "when no one could steal from the state," - sounds a little incorrect after reading this.
      And this is a normal working meeting of that time, a working transcript, and I have no doubt that there are others, you just need to look
      Z.Y.Z.Y. and believe it after reading this (especially according to Vladimirov, generally a joke about the basements of the Cheka) in Scary NKVD methods what what
    7. 0
      17 November 2015 15: 24
      Where are the methods worked out by the NKVD? After all, the people's goods have been used up, and now a lot of money is idle ...


      If you carefully read the article, it turns out that there was never one person responsible for the project, the commission was liquidated, and the cases were not transferred (i.e., no ends can be found). ... ...
      In short, the usual history for Russia, if you look in the history of the Russian Federation in recent times, then this is not an isolated case.
      But what is interesting is that everyone knocks out funding, and then the funding went on silently all the time, if this is so, then you need to look for a person who accompanied this funding.
      1. 0
        17 November 2015 23: 01
        Quote: user
        If you carefully read the article, it turns out that there was never one person responsible for the project, the commission was liquidated, and the cases were not transferred (that is, no ends could be found). .

        In any country, in any system, any project or plan always has a hierarchy of the chief or curator and subordinate performers. The main is always there. Another thing is that someone decided to hush it all up. And the second one. Although the commission is liquidated, people are not liquidated. The prosecutor will tell everyone everything in order to shield himself. So the President of Russia is primarily to blame, it was he who derailed it all.
  2. +2
    17 November 2015 11: 42
    It seems to me that the money has been plundered, but the guilty will not be found. Or what kind of cleaning lady will be appointed guilty and the watchman. All these commissions and tips are nothing more than a means of money laundering.
  3. +1
    17 November 2015 11: 45
    Everything is confusing, but one thing is clear, they stole the money and drank it. Of course, you will not find the extreme ones.
  4. +6
    17 November 2015 11: 47
    RUB 4,93 billion were allocated for the project,

    And how many more similar projects have quietly died down? Therefore, the indexation of pensions has been reduced, and talk about increasing the retirement age is being actively discussed. Billions of money go to no one knows where and it is not clear for what, but the social sector is being cut. When will the perpetrators bear real responsibility, and not go down on the brakes according to the Vasilyeva-Serdyukov version?
  5. +1
    17 November 2015 11: 49
    Far from all these computer technologies, but, perhaps, thanks to the "freezing" of this project, a lot of military industry technologies have been kept from the eyes of the "partners" and who knows, if the LADY would continue to "preside", then thanks to this very grid we would be like on palms? request I think so. Correct if not right. what And money, no doubt, should be turned into the treasury!
    1. jjj
      0
      17 November 2015 12: 08
      Here, too, for some reason I thought that there was a challenge in the system. And all the data could leak on it
      1. 0
        17 November 2015 13: 36
        Quote: jjj
        Here, too, for some reason I thought that there was a challenge in the system. And all the data could leak on it

        Nowadays, it is much easier for traitors to the Motherland to transmit classified information. The miniaturization and functionality of spy gadgets has reached tremendous heights. Therefore, it is not necessary that the traitor had access to the Internet from a secret system.
    2. 0
      17 November 2015 12: 25
      hi Kolka82
      thanks to the "freezing" of this project, many technologies of the military industry have been saved from the eyes of the "partners" and who knows if the LADIES would continue to "preside", then thanks to this very grid we would be in full view?

      There are vague doubts that you are right in many respects. The communication systems between super-computers are completely imported. And nobody canceled bookmarks yet. It is quite possible to simulate a 6th generation aircraft and transmit the results to the Pentagon.
      1. +1
        17 November 2015 13: 19
        Can you give me 4.9 lard? otherwise it will leak anyway, even from a closed network :)
        And the fact that the equipment is only 260 ml of all this amount does not say anything?
    3. +1
      17 November 2015 13: 28
      Quote: Kolka82
      Far from all these computer technologies, but, perhaps, thanks to the "freezing" of this project, a lot of military industry technologies have been kept from the eyes of the "partners" and who knows, if the LADY would continue to "preside", then thanks to this very grid we would be like on palms? request I think so. Correct if not right. what And money, no doubt, should be turned into the treasury!

      It’s hard to say about visibility at a glance. To do this, you need to know the subtleties of this project. If it was focused on the modern Internet, then YES, visibility, at a glance. If this is the global Internet, but only within Russia, without a connection to the American Internet, then there is no visibility. Data transfer protocols and network equipment developed for the military, as well as computers, are not compatible with the American global system. Therefore, in Russia there is not a single hacking of the military global network. Hacking it, one-time, is possible only as a result of direct betrayal.
      The fact is that smart programmers create controlled systems and any user or equipment connected directly to the system in the wrong place or not allowed, that hour will be registered. The simplest thing that happens is to shut down the system and automatically switch to a parallel system that is not accessible to intruders. Another thing is an attempt to transcode signals transmitted over communication cables using equipment located next to the system cables. I’ll briefly say that such a transcoding can take tens or hundreds of years, unless of course there was a treacherous transfer of an encoding-decoding system. But then you need to shoot the entire encryption department. Because this is not possible without the prior conspiracy of several people.
      To judge a project, in general, you need to know the technical details of the project.
      1. AUL
        0
        17 November 2015 15: 04
        Aleksey_K
        I agree with you in almost everything except one.
        Decoding and transcoding of signals taken from communication cables may not take decades now. Now mathematicians have developed quite powerful approaches to decryption with the help of supercomputers, and, alas, traitors, alas, are not decreasing. So breaking a new cipher is not a matter of years, but of weeks or days. And writing a driver between systems is not a question.
        1. 0
          17 November 2015 23: 30
          Quote from AUL
          Decoding and re-encoding signals taken from communication cables may not take decades now. Now mathematicians have developed quite powerful approaches to decryption using supercomputers

          If we apply mathematical algorithms that are well-known to everyone, then yes - decryption will be fast enough. But if I created my own cipher, not based on the mathematics and frequency of letters, syllables and words, then no one will ever decipher it, even if they will guess about the subject of the programs, unless this system is treacherously transferred to other special services along with the text. Moreover, if the decryption of one transmission of the text was treacherously executed, the second transmission of information will no longer have anything to do with the encryption of the previous transmission.
  6. 0
    17 November 2015 11: 49
    And this is just one example, but how many are there in the country? Such articles should only be welcomed, it is necessary to look for sources of possible co-financing in other places, such publications should help this. Thanks for the article.
  7. -2
    17 November 2015 11: 49
    Yes, and this product (a supercomputer, albeit a distributed one) is rapidly becoming obsolete. And when they finish it, nobody will need it again - give everyone exaflops ... And on the second round ... What a prospect, however, how many new yachts will see the light in the Moscow sea ...
  8. 0
    17 November 2015 11: 52
    About 5 days ago (I don’t remember exactly) on the 1st channel news - banged in Moscow, where the University Supercomputer, such as a gas cylinder, and then quietly on the brakes lowered .. Type "stupid" welders. WHO Hired THEM THERE?
    1. avt
      +1
      17 November 2015 12: 00
      Quote: Barracuda
      , where the University Supercomputer, such as a gas cylinder, and then quietly on the brakes lowered .. Type "stupid" welders. WHO Hired THEM THERE?

      whatI heard about this accident and it seems fatal for one person on Leninsky Prospekt in Moscow. But I don’t know the details, but I suppose the cooling system could have exploded. Some kind of refrigerant cylinder .... with freon, or even nitrogen. Such a clot of equipment in the bunker should be conditioned anyway, but this is not done by a fan. Quite a serious industrial installation is needed and not with a compressor from a household refrigerator.
    2. 0
      17 November 2015 14: 03
      Quote: Barracuda
      About 5 days ago (I don’t remember exactly) on the 1st channel news - banged in Moscow, where the University Supercomputer, such as a gas cylinder, and then quietly on the brakes lowered .. Type "stupid" welders. WHO Hired THEM THERE?


      Uh ..... Putin?
  9. +1
    17 November 2015 11: 54
    Naive dreamers, they believed that to give a dough and any problem is solved. You give the dough and any amount disappears, this is how it works. The dim-witted humanitarians first destroyed entire industries and scientific directions, and then they wanted to get advanced technologies, throwing money at the problem. Fuck there! First people, then means of production, and then MAYBE some kind of high tech. And this is long!
    1. jjj
      +2
      17 November 2015 12: 10
      Apparently, the time has come for the people to nominate the new Lavrenty Pavlovich from their ranks
  10. +1
    17 November 2015 12: 00
    Yes, these capacities were idle, therefore they froze the allocation of funds. Why does a plant need teraflops if it has no orders and no machine!
  11. 0
    17 November 2015 12: 00
    Ilya Massukh believes that the grid network project was very necessary, and the reasons for stopping it should be sought in the political plane.


    Only those who need it are gone, while others are far away. And the managers do not know why it is necessary until Putin intervenes.
  12. +1
    17 November 2015 12: 03
    The idea, perhaps, was not bad, but the execution was such that not a single article of the Criminal Code would be enough, it is only a pity that the guilty will receive new posts and positions
  13. +1
    17 November 2015 12: 04
    We did everything right. Consumers forgot to educate. Moreover, it is necessary to teach from the 1st year of the institute and so on, and now there is no one at the factories to interact with the supercomputer.
    1. +1
      17 November 2015 14: 00
      Quote: Jurkovs
      and now there is no one in the factories to interact with the supercomputer.

      Which factories? At least you wondered what a supercomputer is and where it is used.
      Supercomputers are used in all areas where numerical modeling is used to solve a problem; where a huge amount of complex calculations is required, processing a large amount of data in real time, or a solution to a problem can be found by a simple enumeration of the set of values ​​of the set of initial parameters.
      The improvement of methods of numerical modeling took place simultaneously with the improvement of computers: the more complex the tasks were, the higher were the requirements for the machines being created; the faster the machines were, the more difficult were the tasks that could be solved on them. At first, supercomputers were used almost exclusively for defense tasks: calculations for nuclear and thermonuclear weapons, nuclear reactors. Then, as the mathematical apparatus of numerical modeling improved, knowledge in other areas of science developed, supercomputers began to be used in “peaceful” calculations, creating new scientific disciplines, such as: numerical weather forecast, computational biology and medicine, computational chemistry, computational fluid dynamics, computational linguistics, etc., where the achievements of computer science merged with the achievements of applied science.
      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Суперкомпьютер
      1. 0
        17 November 2015 18: 13
        Such factories, car damage in an accident, calculate - please, estimate the antenna cover - please, cut a sheet of metal - keep it. And the fusion of high technologies, scientific disciplines and the rest is, forgive me, water. Yes, boundary problems can be solved quite well, only everyone who understands these problems is placed in one classroom.
        1. 0
          18 November 2015 09: 26
          Quote: HollyGremlin
          Such factories, car damage in an accident, calculate - please, estimate the antenna cover - please, cut a sheet of metal - keep it.

          It's too shallow for a supercomputer! smile You can also "cut a sheet of metal" on a laptop!
  14. +1
    17 November 2015 12: 05
    I did not understand from the article, but who needed these supercomps? Who are their solvent consumers?
  15. +1
    17 November 2015 12: 12
    The political plane is probably the usual stolen ...
  16. 0
    17 November 2015 12: 15
    You shouldn't be like that, people!
    I think an article on inciting anger towards the ruling, and then what, Maidan wanted? !!!
    Justify my thought: the project manager was removed, but a new one was not appointed!
    The project is necessary and in demand, BUT a responsible manager is needed for completion and implementation! This is what the Ministry of Telecom and Mass Communications insists. The money spent has not been stolen, but idle.

    And yes, ahead of misunderstandings, I live in Russia and love my homeland !!!
  17. +2
    17 November 2015 12: 22
    Everything turned out great, and now they are looking for where to get more money for some new toy for the government, which then no one will need for nothing.
  18. 0
    17 November 2015 12: 25
    Another Medvedev's whim was fulfilled and fucked! This is how the people's money is spent simply and not under compulsion. It's a pity. that the Accounts Chamber did not disclose how much was stolen from the budget.
  19. +3
    17 November 2015 12: 25
    Quote: Bombardier
    And now, what prevents development?

    Chubaisoids
  20. 0
    17 November 2015 12: 34
    :)))))))))))))))) Just another story in the spirit of "MyOffice" ...
  21. +2
    17 November 2015 12: 36
    Involuntarily, one wonders if our country does not have problems that require modeling on supercomputers? I understand that our scientists can offer an original "scheme" for solving complex problems, which will simplify the simulation and will not require a supercomputer, but not to the same extent!
    1. +1
      17 November 2015 12: 38
      99% of our scientists are engaged in sophistry, so they don't need anything other than a smart look, clothes and a Word with an Internet for research ...
  22. +8
    17 November 2015 12: 40
    Supercomputers are useful when there are scientific
    projects (physics, astronomy, military, genetics, etc.), where they are driven
    at full capacity.
    If there are no projects, then they are useless hardware.
  23. +2
    17 November 2015 12: 45
    All projects created by Medvedev turned out to be a solid linden, a feeding trough for bureaucrats, even the time was not translated correctly (
  24. +3
    17 November 2015 13: 01
    Conversations will remain conversations if changes in the structures of Power remain at the same level, and much needs to be changed. For example, I don't understand why the State pays for the work of the deputies, isn't it the responsibility of the organizations that nominate them? Why are the deputies in the State Duma on a permanent basis, and not where their voters are? Why, after their term, the deputies remain in service apartments, and do not leave for the place of registration? If the deputy does not protect the interests of your enterprise, organization, community, and you pay him for a business trip, don't you want to change him? I'm just sure that after such changes, parasites and cunning ones will be much less, and the money will go to more necessary things. And most importantly, the pensions of the deputies should not differ many times from the national ones, the deputy must understand "As you drown, so do you." Let's start with that.
  25. 0
    17 November 2015 13: 23
    Recently on the channel "Russia 24" there was a program about the modest Russian billionaire Mamut. So, he is a fan of promoting all sorts of interesting (and complex) projects. And mostly not for state money. It is necessary to introduce him to whoever you need (unless of course he knows already) and let him make this supercomputer work for our industry. I first learned about him and he impressed as an honest man.
  26. 0
    17 November 2015 14: 39
    Read attentive.
    It's not that the money has been stolen (although not without it, most likely some part).
    And the fact that the supplied equipment and built infrastructure idle... This is the most offensive.
    P.S. Look at the root (Kozma Prutkov)
  27. 0
    17 November 2015 15: 10
    Quotes from the article: "The Commission was abolished, they forgot about the supercomputer"


    "The reasons for the loss of interest in the project of supercomputers and grid networks lie in the fact that in the summer of 2012, after Vladimir Putin became president, the Commission on Modernization was liquidated."

    Digging under the GDP?]
  28. 0
    17 November 2015 15: 10
    Quotes from the article: "The Commission was abolished, they forgot about the supercomputer"


    "The reasons for the loss of interest in the project of supercomputers and grid networks lie in the fact that in the summer of 2012, after Vladimir Putin became president, the Commission on Modernization was liquidated."

    Digging under the GDP?]
  29. 0
    17 November 2015 15: 22
    Out of the corner of my eye I saw the work on this project.
    Initially, a delusional statement of the question, apparently, by several lobbyists-suppliers of equipment for the deployment of this network.
    Enterprises that were completely unprepared were approached and demanded plans to use supercomputer capacities.
    Whatever the question, this is the answer. Those enterprises that have seen before using supercomputer capacities - several years of investment and hard work of designers
  30. 0
    17 November 2015 16: 03
    What the hell is everyone shoving into Moscow ?! Do we have more space in Russia? The Novosibirsk academic town alone is worth something ... No, damn it, everyone shoves and shoves in Moscow. To make it easier to steal? Morons, b ... (c)

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