Russian air combat that scared the Luftwaffe: rams

105
Russian air combat that scared the Luftwaffe: rams

From the very beginning of the war with the Soviet Union, the air forces of the Third Reich (Luftwaffe) had to experience the fury of the Soviet "falcons". Heinrich Goering, Reich Minister of the Imperial Ministry aviation in 1935-1945, he was forced to forget his boastful words that "No one can ever achieve an advantage in the air over German aces!"

On the very first day of the Great Patriotic War, German pilots encountered such a technique as an air ram. This technique was first proposed by Russian aviator N. A. Yatsuk (in the journal Aeronautics Bulletin No. 13-14 for 1911 a year), and was also used for the first time in Russian practice by the Russian pilot Peter Nesterov 8 of September 1914 of the year he shot down an Austrian aircraft scout.

During the Great Patriotic War, the air ram was not provided for by military regulations, any instructions or instructions, and the Soviet pilots resorted to this technique not on the orders of the command. Soviet people moved the love of the Motherland, the hatred of the invaders and the rage of the battle, a sense of duty and personal responsibility for the fate of the Fatherland. As Aleksandr Aleksandrovich Novikov, twice Hero of the Soviet Union, who was commander of the Soviet Air Force from May 1944 to 1943, wrote aviation chief marshal of aviation (from 1946): “Air ram is not only lightning-quick calculation, exceptional courage and self-control. A ram in the sky is above all a readiness for self-sacrifice, the last test of allegiance to its people, its ideals. This is one of the highest forms of manifestation of the very moral factor inherent in the Soviet man, whom the enemy did not take into account and could not take into account. ”

During the Great War, Soviet pilots made more than 600 air rams (the exact number is unknown, as research continues and now, new feats of Stalin falcons are becoming known). More than two-thirds of the rams occur in 1941-1942 years - this is the most difficult period of the war. In the fall of the 1941 of the year, a circular was even sent out in part of the Luftwaffe, which prohibited people from approaching Soviet aircraft closer than on 100 meters in order to avoid air ramming.

It should be noted that the pilots of the Soviet Air Force used a ram on all types of aircraft: fighters, bombers, attack aircraft and reconnaissance aircraft. Air ramming took place in single and group battles, day and night, at high and low altitudes, over its territory and over the territory of the enemy, in all weather conditions. There were cases when the pilots rammed a land or water target. Thus, the number of ground-based rams is almost equal to air attacks - more than 500. Perhaps the most famous ground ram is the feat that 26 performed on June 1941 of the year on DB-3 (IL-4, a twin-engine long-range bomber) crew of Captain Nikolai Gastello. The bomber was hit by enemy anti-aircraft artillery fire and made the so-called. "Fire ram", hitting the enemy's mechanized column.

In addition, we can not say that the air ram necessarily led to the death of the pilot. As the statistics show, approximately 37% of pilots died during the air ramming. The rest of the pilots not only survived, but even kept the plane in a more or less combat-capable state, so many cars could continue the air battle and made a successful landing. There are examples when the pilots made two successful rammers in one air battle. Several dozen Soviet pilots made the so-called. "Double" rams, this is when the first time the aircraft of the enemy could not be shot down and then it was necessary to finish it with a second blow. There is even a case when the fighter pilot O. Kilgovatov had to make four ram attacks in order to destroy the enemy. 35 Soviet pilots made two rams each, N.V.Teryokhin and A.S. Khlobyst - three.

Boris Ivanovich Kovzan (1922 - 1985) - this is the only pilot in the world who made four air rambles, and he returned three times to his own airfield on his plane. 13 August 1942 of the year on a single-engine fighter La-5 captain B.I. Kovzan made the fourth ram. The pilot found a group of enemy bombers and fighters and joined them in a fight. In a fierce battle, his plane was shot down. The enemy machine-gun fire went through the cockpit of the fighter, the instrument panel was smashed, and the pilot's head was shattered with splinters. The car was on fire. Boris Kovzan felt a sharp pain in his head and one eye, so he hardly noticed how one of the German planes went at him in a frontal attack. Machines rapidly converging. “If now the German does not stand up and turns it up, then it will have to be rammed,” thought Kovzan. Wounded in the head of the pilot on a burning plane went to the ram.

When the planes collided in the air, Kovzan was thrown out of the cockpit from a sharp blow, since the belts simply burst. 3500 meters he flew, without opening the parachute in a semi-conscious state, and only already above the ground, at the height of all 200 meters, he woke up and pulled the pull ring. The parachute could open, but the impact on the ground was still very strong. The Soviet ace recovered in the Moscow hospital on the seventh day. He had several wounds with splinters, his collarbone and jaw were broken, both arms and legs. Doctors could not save the pilot's right eye. Two months continued treatment Kovzan. Everyone was well aware that only a miracle saved him in this air battle. The commission’s verdict for Boris Kovzan was very hard: “You can't fly anymore.” But it was a real Soviet falcon, who could not imagine life without flying and the sky. Kovzan achieved his dream all his life! At one time, they did not want to take him to the Odessa Military Aviation School, then Kovzan assigned himself a year and asked the doctors of the medical commission, although he did not get 13 kilograms of weight to normal. And he achieved his goal. He was led by firm confidence, if you constantly strive for a goal - it will be achieved.

He was injured, but now he is healthy, his head is in place, his arms and legs have recovered. As a result, the pilot got to the Commander of the Air Force A. Novikov. He promised to help. A new conclusion of the medical board was received: “It is suitable for flights on all types of fighters”. Boris Kovzan writes a report with a request to send him to the warring units, receives several failures. But this time he got his way, the pilot was enrolled in the 144 Division of Air Defense (AD) near Saratov. In total, during the years of the Great Patriotic War, the Soviet pilot made 360 combat sorties, took part in 127 air battles, shot down 28 German aircraft, and 6 of them were already seriously wounded and one-eyed. In August, 1943 was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union.


Kovzan Boris Ivanovich

Soviet pilots during the Great Patriotic War used various techniques of air ramming:

Blow the propeller of the aircraft on the tail of the enemy. The attacking aircraft comes at the enemy from behind and strikes the propeller on its tail. This strike led to the destruction of the enemy aircraft or loss of control. It was the most common technique of air ramming during the Great War. When executed correctly, the pilot of the attacking aircraft had pretty good chances to survive. When an enemy collides with an airplane, only a propeller usually suffers, and even if it failed, there were chances to land the car or jump with a parachute.

Beat the wing. It was carried out both with the frontal approach of the aircraft, and when approaching the enemy from behind. The blow was struck by the wing on the tail or fuselage of the enemy aircraft, including the cockpit of the target aircraft. Sometimes this technique completed the frontal attack.

Hit the fuselage. He was considered the most dangerous type of air ram for the pilot. This technique also includes the collision of aircraft in a frontal attack. Interestingly, even with this outcome, some pilots survived.

Blow with the tail of an aircraft (ram I. Sh. Bikmukhametova). The ram that was committed by Ibragim Shagiahmedovich Bikmukhametov 4 August 1942. He went into the forehead of an enemy plane with a slide and a turn struck the tail of his fighter on the wing of the enemy. As a result, the enemy fighter lost control, fell into a corkscrew and died, and Ibrahim Bikmukhametov could even bring his LaGG-3 to the airfield and safely land.

Bikmukhametov graduated from the 2 th Borisoglebsk Red Banner Military Aviation School for them. V.P. Chkalov, in the winter of 1939 - 1940, participated in the war with Finland. In the Great Patriotic War, the junior lieutenant participated from its very beginning, until November 1941 served as part of the 238 Fighter Aviation Regiment (IAP), then in the 5 Guards IAP. The regiment commander noted that the pilot was "bold and decisive."

4 Augusta 1942 of the year six LaGG-Z single-engine and single-engine fighters of the 5 Guards IAP, led by Major Grigory Onufrienko, flew to cover ground forces in the Rzhev region. The composition of this group included the commander of the link Ibrahim Bikmukhametov. Behind the front line, Soviet fighters met 8 enemy fighters Me-109. The Germans went a parallel course. A short-term air battle began. It ended in victory for our pilots: the 3 of the Luftwaffe was destroyed. One of them was shot down by the squadron commander G. Onufienko, two other Messerschmitt I. Bikmukhametov. The first Me-109 pilot attacked at a combat reversal, hitting him with a cannon and two machine guns, the enemy's plane went to the ground. In the heat of battle I. Bikmukhametov later noticed another enemy aircraft, which came from above into the tail of his car. But the flight commander did not lose his head, he energetically made a slide and with a sharp turn went to the German. The enemy could not stand the attack in the forehead and tried to turn off his plane. The enemy pilot was able to avoid encountering the propeller blades of the machine I. Bikmukhametova. But our pilot contrived and, having sharply turned the car, struck a strong blow with the tail of his "iron" (this fighter plane was nicknamed by the Soviet pilots) on the wing of the "Messer". The enemy fighter fell into a corkscrew and soon fell into a thicket of dense forest.

Bikmukhametov could bring a badly damaged car to the airfield. It was the 11 th enemy plane shot down by Ibragim Bikmukhametov. The pilot during the war was awarded the Order of the Red Banner 2 and the Order of the Red Star. The brave pilot 16 December 1942 of the year in the Voronezh region was killed. During the battle with the superior forces of the enemy, his plane was shot down and during a forced landing, trying to save the fighter, the wounded pilot crashed.


LaGG-3

The first rams of World War II

Researchers are still arguing over who committed the first 22 ram on June 1941 of the year. Some believe that it was the senior lieutenant Ivan Ivanovich Ivanovothers call the first lieutenant Dmitry Vasilyevich Kokorev the author of the first ram of the Great Patriotic War.

I. I. Ivanov (1909 - 22 June 1941) served in the ranks of the Red Army from the autumn of 1931, then was sent on a Komsomol trip to the Perm aviation school. In the spring of 1933, Ivanov was sent to the 8 Odessa Military Aviation School. He initially served in the 11-th light-bomber regiment in the Kiev Military District, in the 1939 year he participated in the Polish campaign to liberate Western Ukraine and Western Belarus, then in the "Winter War" with Finland. At the end of 1940, he completed fighter pilot courses. He was assigned to the 14-th mixed aviation division, deputy commander of the squadron of the 46-IAP.


Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov

At dawn 22 June 1941, Senior Lieutenant Ivan Ivanov went up to the sky on alert at the head of the I-16 link (according to another version, the pilots were on the I-153) to intercept a group of enemy aircraft approaching the Mlynov airfield. In the air, Soviet pilots found 6 twin-engine bomber He-111 from the 7 squadron of the KG 55 Grif squadron. Senior Lieutenant Ivanov led the fighter link to attack the enemy. The link of the Soviet fighters swooped down on the lead bomber. The arrows of the bombers opened fire on Soviet aircraft. Coming out of the dive, the 16 repeated the attack. One of the "Heinkels" was hit. The rest of the enemy bombers dropped bombs before reaching the target and began to go west. After a successful attack, both Ivanov's slaves went to their own airfield, since, moving away from the fire of the enemy’s shooters, they maneuvered and spent almost all the fuel. Ivanov letting them go in for a landing, continued pursuing, but then also decided to sit down, because the fuel ran out and the ammunition ran out. At this time, an enemy bomber appeared over the Soviet airfield. Seeing him, Ivanov went to meet him, but the German, leading machine-gun fire, did not turn off the course. The only way to stop the enemy was a ram. From a strike a bomber (a Soviet plane was screwed off a tail of a German car), which was led by non-commissioned officer H. Volfeil, lost control and crashed into the ground. The German crew died all. But I. Ivanov's plane was badly damaged. Due to the low altitude the pilot could not use the parachute and died. This ram occurred in 4 hours 25 minutes in the morning near the village of Zagoroshcha, Rivne region, Rivne region. 2 August 1941, Senior Lieutenant Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov posthumously became the Hero of the Soviet Union.


And-16


Around the same time, a junior lieutenant committed his ram Dmitry Vasilyevich Kokorev (1918 - 12.10.1941). A native of Ryazan, he served in the 9-th mixed aviation division, in the 124-IAP (Western Special Military District). The regiment was stationed at the border airfield Vysoko - Mazowieck, near the town of Zambrov (Western Ukraine). After the war began, the commander of the regiment, Major Polunin, instructed the young pilot to reconnoiter the situation in the area of ​​the state border of the USSR, which has now become the line of military contact between the Soviet and German forces.

In 4 hours of 05 minutes in the morning, when Dmitry Kokorev was returning from reconnaissance, the Luftwaffe made the first powerful blow to the airfield, since the regiment interfered with the flight inland. The fight was fierce. The airfield was badly damaged.

And then Kokarev saw the Dornier-215 reconnaissance bomber (according to other information, the Me-110 multi-purpose aircraft) leaving the Soviet airfield. Apparently, it was Hitler's scout, who carried out the monitoring of the result of the first strike on the fighter regiment. The anger blinded the Soviet pilot, sharply jerking the high-altitude fighter "MiG" in combat turn, Kokorev went on the attack, in the fever he opened fire ahead of time. Missed, but the German shooter hit aptly - a line of gaps flashed the right plane of his car.

The enemy aircraft at maximum speed went to the state border. Dmitry Kokorev went on the second attack. He shortened the distance, paying no attention to the firing of the German shooter, going up to the distance of the shot, Kokorev pressed the trigger, but the ammunition ran out. A long Soviet pilot did not think it was impossible to let the enemy go, he abruptly added speed and threw the fighter at the enemy machine. The MiG propelled a screw around the Dornier tail unit.

This air ram occurred in 4 hours 15 minutes (according to other data - in 4.35) in front of the infantrymen and border guards who defended the city of Zambres. The fuselage of the German aircraft broke in half, and the Dornier crashed to the ground. Our fighter crashed into a tailspin, its engine stalled. Kokorev came to his senses and was able to wrest the car out of a terrible rotation. I chose a clearing for landing and landed successfully. It should be noted that Junior Lieutenant Kokorev was an ordinary Soviet ordinary pilot, of whom there were hundreds in the Air Force of the Red Army. Behind Junior Lieutenant was only flight school.

Unfortunately, the hero did not live up to Victory. He made 100 combat missions, shot down the enemy's 5 aircraft. When his regiment fought near Leningrad, October 12 intelligence reported that a large number of enemy Junkers had been discovered at the airfield in Siverskaya. The weather was not flying, the Germans did not rise into the air in such conditions and did not wait for our planes. It was decided to strike at the airfield. The 6 group of our Pe-2 dive-bombers (they were called “Pawns”) accompanied by 13 MiG-3 fighters, having appeared over the “Siverskaya”, came as a complete surprise to the Nazis.

Incendiary bombs from low altitude hit right on target, machine-gun fire and fighter jet missiles completed the rout. The Germans were able to lift into the air only one fighter. Pe-2 already bombed and left, only one bomber behind. Kokorev rushed to his defense. He shot down the enemy, but at this time the German air defense came around. Dmitry's plane was shot down and fell.



The first ...

Ekaterina Ivanovna Zelenko (1916 - 12 September 1941) was the first woman on the planet to commit an air ram. Zelenko graduated from Voronezh Aero Club (in 1933 year), 3 th Orenburg Military Aviation School. KE Voroshilova (in 1934 year). She served as part of the 19-th Light Bomber Aviation Brigade in Kharkov, was a test pilot. Over the years, 4 has mastered seven types of aircraft. This is the only female pilot who participated in the "Winter War" (as part of the 11-th Light Bomber Regiment). She was awarded the Order of the Red Banner - made 8 sorties.

In the Great Patriotic War, she participated from the first day, fighting in the 16-th mixed aviation division, was the deputy commander of the 5-th squadron of the 135-th bomber aviation regiment. I managed to make 40 combat missions, including night ones. 12 September 1941 of the year she made 2 successful reconnaissance sorties on a Su-2 bomber. But, despite the fact that during her second flight, the Su-2 was damaged, Ekaterina Zelenko flew out for the third time that day. Already returning, in the area of ​​the town of Romny, two Soviet aircraft were attacked by 7 enemy fighters. Ekaterina Zelenko was able to shoot down one Me-109, and when she ran out of ammunition, she rammed the second German fighter. The pilot destroyed the enemy, but she herself died.


Monument to Catherine Zelenko in Kursk.

Victor Vasilievich Talalikhin (1918 - 27 October 1941) made a night ram, which became the most famous in this war, shooting down an X-7 bomber on the X-NNXX near Podolsk (Moscow region) on the night of 1941 in August. For a long time it was believed that this was the first night ram in stories aviation. Only later it became known that on the night of July 29 1941, the fighter pilot 28-IAP Petr Vasilievich Eremeev on the MiG-3 aircraft, an enemy Junkers-88 bomber shot down with a ram attack. He was killed on October 2 1941 of the year in air combat (September 21 1995 of Eremeev for courage and military prowess, was posthumously awarded the title Hero of Russia).

October 27 The 1941 fighter jets under the command of V. Talalikhina flew to cover our forces in the area of ​​the village of Kamenka, on the banks of the Nara (6 km west of the capital). They collided with 85 enemy fighters, in a battle Talalikhin shot down one "messer", but the other was able to knock him down, the pilot was killed by the death of the brave ...


Victor Vasilievich Talalikhin.

The crew of Viktor Petrovich Nosov from the 51st mine and torpedo regiment of the Baltic Air Force fleet made the first ram in the history of the war with the help of a heavy bomber. The lieutenant commanded the torpedo bomber A-20 (American Douglas A-20 Havoc). February 13, 1945 in the southern part of the Baltic Sea during an attack of enemy vehicles of 6 thousand tons, a Soviet aircraft was shot down. The commander directed the burning car directly into the enemy’s vehicles. The plane hit the target, an explosion occurred, the enemy ship sank. The crew: lieutenant Viktor Nosov (commander), junior lieutenant Alexander Igoshin (navigator) and sergeant Fedor Dorofeev (gunner-radio operator), died the death of the brave.

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  1. +33
    21 November 2011 08: 46
    Whatever and who would say about expediency, imperfection of weapons, etc. A ram is a weapon of the brave ......
    1. +10
      21 November 2011 13: 41
      You can't argue with that. Although if you think sensibly, the ram is justified only in cases when the plane can no longer be returned. If the equipment is in good order, and the whole problem is "out of cartridges", it is better to try to save the plane. Not your life, but an airplane! Many pilots died right in the hands of technicians, saving the car.
      1. strelok-07
        +11
        21 November 2011 16: 09
        It all depends on the situation. You can try to save the car and complete the task, but the solution should be one. I am sure that there was no time to think about my life going to ram. And thank God that among our ancestors were, I hope, there are Heroes from whom we must take an example of serving the Motherland and teach young people on their example.
      2. ISO
        ISO
        0
        10 February 2012 23: 18
        Ram is a weapon of poorly trained cannon fodder. Our guys had anger, courage and courage, but they didn’t have enough experience in fighting, and they ate the reptiles as much as they could, if only they couldn’t disappear. And it was still not very good to return without completing a combat mission, in general, it was possible not to return ...
    2. +1
      26 November 2011 17: 44
      what only our soldiers did not go to defend their homeland.
  2. +11
    21 November 2011 09: 03
    Taran is the weapon of Heroes !!!!!!!! And a good element of psychic weapons
  3. bober
    -20
    21 November 2011 09: 36
    Japanese kamikaze .u Russian ram. but most importantly there are no analogues)))))))) and the pilots did it only because the armor is strong and our tanks were fast. just like now)))))))))
    1. +13
      21 November 2011 10: 44
      everything is much simpler, the pilots went to ram - because they were not like you and your kind bober
  4. +2
    21 November 2011 10: 10
    battering ram has always been the last resort when it is not possible to use standard weapons, and the goal is too important to let go of it .... now the equipment is different and battering rams seem to have gone down in history ...
    1. +8
      21 November 2011 10: 49
      November 28, 1973 recorded the first in the history of air ramming committed by a jet plane. In the area of ​​the Mugan Plain (Azerbaijan SSR), the Iranian Air Force plane violated the Soviet border. From the airfield, Vaziani climbed to intercept the MiG-21SM. Having caught the intruder at the border and not having the opportunity to use rocket weapons, the pilot Eliseev decided to go to the ram. There was an explosion. The crew of the offender remained alive, and Eliseev died (he was posthumously awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union).
  5. Kostyan
    -34
    21 November 2011 11: 23
    Ram full. this is because they did not know how to use weapons .. as always, our suckers are in shit ... and they are also extolling ... battering ram .... weapons ... and the Germans always and everywhere had air superiority, at will ... just think, in 1944 and 45th they bombed us at the Stucks ..... nooo ..... our aircraft were crap ... and the pilots were unprepared ..... however, as always .... and now same....
    1. +16
      21 November 2011 13: 30
      Quote: Kostyan
      Germans always and everywhere had air superiority


      You do not quote Goebbels

      Our planes, "shot down" by German aces, are in fact planes at which the Germans only fired. At the time of the shooting, they were photographed. And the footage of a photo-machine gun installed on German fighters recorded the fact of shooting, and not real destruction.

      the German signal "Attention! Pokryshkin is in the air" is widely known, warning his pilots about the appearance of a fighter with the number "100" on board and about the need to quickly get out of this area.

      In August 1942, in North Africa, the unit of Lieutenant Vogel, the commander of the fourth group of the 27th fighter squadron, shot down 65 enemy aircraft in a month. Departing on a mission, the German pilots had fun as follows: shooting ammunition in the sand, they returned to the airfield and reported on their “victories”. When they were finally opened, they just disbanded the link, leaving all victories intact.

      This is how your favorite "trained" Germans fought
      1. Kostyan
        -21
        21 November 2011 13: 42
        think .... Rudel has never been shot down by plane
        , despite the fact that he flew on an iron thing ..... reading his book, I remember this phrase when he moved to the 190th .... "I realized that on this plane I am completely safe" ... how? ?? !!!! how could the pilot of an iron piece, which in the whole world already in 1940 was considered an outdated aircraft, to do this in our 44th ????? this is the level of training of our pilots ... what is there to argue about ...
        1. +13
          21 November 2011 14: 36
          Quote: Kostyan
          think .... Rudel has never been shot down by plane


          Rudel writes that he was never shot down by a fighter, How can you believe a Nazi shot down over 30 times? He was even shot down by IL-2 when he flew the Fw-190

          And his cellmate Gunter Rall recalled: “I often provided cover for his group. And when we were together in captivity after the war, I got to know him better. I was surprised how selfish he was, and he really considered himself great. it was not pleasant enough. "

          I would directly write a nonsense and a bastard, we would understand, but I advise you Konstantin to read the classics

          As President of the United States, Kennedy stated bluntly: “We cannot defeat the Soviet Union in a conventional war. This is an impregnable fortress. We can defeat the Soviet Union only by other methods: ideological, psychological, propaganda, economy. ”
          1. ZHORA
            -17
            21 November 2011 14: 58
            "... I was surprised how selfish he was, and he really thought he was great. It was not pleasant enough .."

            Well, really like G.K. Zhukov)
            1. Kostyan
              -21
              21 November 2011 18: 31
              and the bugs ... any stupid man ... only such a stupid man mlg in the 45th to beat Zeel in the forehead ... to put 2 tank armies ... well, almost ..... is that like ????? down ....
          2. Kostyan
            -19
            21 November 2011 18: 29
            Rudel 1000 times can be a bastard and an egoist ..... the fact remains ... he thrashed our vehicles and ships as much as he could and wanted .... none of ours could do that .. but no one in the world ... .that says a lot .. and ours that ... nothing ... break loose .. ours were given a hero for 3 chances of downed ...)))))))))))))))) this as????? I do not diminish our courage .. everything was at the collective farm level ... we didn’t know how to fly .. there was no maneuver ... there was no interaction ... radio and they put it on the plane at the end of the war ..)))))) the red ones ... they all ruined it ... they pissed off such an empire ... yes, the whole world laughed at the Stalinist falcons ... to sweep all aviation for the 22nd ... no one even knows how much ... no .. we never not to rise to the level of y-o-th chances ... never ... but like the current army of the Russian Federation ..... the Yankees will immediately overwhelm us .... what by the way they demonstrated in Iraq by kneeling them in a month .... it's like So ???? the best tank in the world like ours .. willows are all knocked out by a-10 or soaked by abrams .. ????? so the army in Russia will immediately be a kapets to her ...
            1. +6
              21 November 2011 19: 44
              to gain equipment allowed full domination in the air of the Luftwaffe in the initial period of the war, and even though the Nazis are bastards without a dispute, but the Germans are intelligent soldiers, we must admit!
              1. Kostyan
                -16
                21 November 2011 20: 00
                and so it’s a shame that they didn’t have superiority ... we had ... 4-5 times .... it's sad ...
                1. moment1978
                  +7
                  22 November 2011 02: 51
                  Sad about you, dear. About your indefatigable childish fantasy. It’s good to read non-fiction, but it’s not clear what.
                  1. Kostyan
                    -15
                    22 November 2011 09: 32
                    I say it again .. what kind of documentary and honest one ?????? shovel-fake or what ..... grief of ultra-patriots ????? more specifically .....
                    1. +3
                      22 November 2011 21: 51
                      Kostenka, learn how to simply analyze and think, if we were so shy that only fluff and feathers flew, then why did the war end in Berlin at 45, and not in Moscow at 41 ?!
                      why limes with Pindos, considering that it would not be possible to destroy the industrial and industrial base of the USSR with their first nuclear strike, abandoned the trench war ?!
                      1. Kostyan
                        -9
                        23 November 2011 00: 54
                        everything is very simple ... they drowned in blood and threw corpses .. the Germans drowned in it and the tanks stalled .. as well as the help of the Pindos and Johnny .. they all did this for our victory, absolutely everything .... but at the expense of the Oksp , they’re just not stupid people like us, that they would ruin our guys .. it's just we are such stupid people .. moreover, as before and now ...
                      2. +5
                        23 November 2011 07: 52
                        I won’t even explain anything to you. Kostya will give you advice if you want to seem smart it’s better to shut up. Yes, you need to know the history of the Great Patriotic War.
                      3. +3
                        23 November 2011 09: 57
                        about the sea of ​​blood mountains of corpses figures in comparison can lead ?!
                    2. andreypilot
                      +3
                      23 November 2011 19: 48
                      But is everything Soviet, isn’t it? You need to read either the yellow-block, about the great Stepa Bandera and the great independence and the heroes of una-unso (how they did not terrorize their people, well, they didn’t hang it, they didn’t burn, they brought up patriots) and bad Muscovites, or the Baltic, about the Soviet invaders, it’s definitely true .., like a grown man, where does this mood come from? Do you like anything in our country? Or judging by other comments, you’re cattle plowing, and you’re relaxing ?
                      1. Kostyan
                        -7
                        23 November 2011 21: 09
                        the pilot ... all Soviet lies ... and you know it no worse than me .... but I hate this whole black scum of black benderown scum no less than you .... I myself am Russian and proud of it ... and in my passport I haven’t changed some nationalities .... but I live in a village and work fine ... there is a garden ... I like not everything in the country, but a lot ... and I call those cattle who deserve it ....
            2. 0
              22 November 2011 00: 51
              saw cuts having rolled through the polymers of banduputin support !!!!!! lol
            3. +2
              22 November 2011 07: 44
              You are a victim of Pindos propaganda about their "invincibility", in Iraq in particular. The old T-62s fought against the Abrams there, and without the support of the Air Force. And the fighters of their "delta" squad are able to put fifty enemy fighters at once from one M16 horn (in which 30 rounds) (well, if you believe their films).
              By the way, when about 40 bombers took part in the Luftwaffe raid on the Marat in Leningrad, and for some reason, out of these 40 bombers, it was Hans Rudel who hit the front tower of the Marat with a 500-kg bomb. Of the 40 aircraft, it was HE. this is just suspicious.
              1. Kostyan
                -15
                22 November 2011 09: 38
                dada .. the information war and all that .. it’s understandable ... however the fact remains .... Pindos put everyone on their knees ..... and no one .. notice no one can stop them ..... they do what they want ... they don’t have to treat the enemy arrogantly ... but to know him really .. they really are the strongest in the world .... by the way, the Yankees, unlike us, didn’t put hundreds of armored vehicles in the city of Baghdad as we have in 95 stupid bosses did .... and why by the way the 62nd .. and where are 72-ki, the main tank of the Russian Federation .. ???? I'm sure they would have burned no worse, because shit .... why didn’t the black air defense work ???? yes because monkeys and air defense g.avno .... and why Rudel could not get to Marat ??? who???
                1. +4
                  22 November 2011 21: 53
                  Quote: Kostyan
                  all are put on their knees while Pindos .....

                  all of whom, Vietnamese, Koreans, Afghans whom? !!!!!!!
                  1. Kostyan
                    -7
                    23 November 2011 00: 56
                    Koreans yes, Afghans yes ... but Vietnam no ... and they put a couple of millions there ...
                2. andreypilot
                  +4
                  23 November 2011 20: 33
                  and where are 72 matches, the main tank of the Russian Federation .. ???? sure would burn no worse, for shit ....
                  -said the specialist .. As there have been a lot of them lately .. Study the facts, look at the documents, and then quilter ... In Iraq, most of the tanks were destroyed with the rank of T-54., 64. with the number of T-72 that were in service with Iraq (and very few modernized ones) the Americans themselves at their abrams did not even try to initially enter into combat contact, it was strictly forbidden to them ... Only after an air strike, cover, etc. .. The main damage the tanks suffered from air strikes, the Arabs threw serviceable tanks on positions, set fire .... No wonder our military after the war between Egypt and Israel, they told the Arab to entrust the technique that the monkey stick .. A lot is said about our tanks that are not good, who are interested, I am not the first, but once again I give a link to material that is worthy of all attention: http: //www.youtube .com / watch? v = GcXqiUKfA-4
                  Think it’s not advertising, it’s said by those who depend on the car ..
                  And once again about the main thing ... You forgot about whom and about what feats the article .. We have a different mentality, we are not kamikaze or other warriors .. We want to live, we do not want to die, we want to love, get married and raise children, but for the sake of the Motherland, we are ready for everything, and who died for the sake of the Motherland, are worthy of respect and worship ... And your banter, go to house-2, there are girls of your mentality and interest-money, sex and beer .. And for sure you have a lot of freedom, you is it missing? In your country you don’t like everything, why do you live here?
                  1. Kostyan
                    -5
                    23 November 2011 21: 15
                    the pilot .. glad to hear that you are no longer insulting ... about tanks .. well, after all, really 72 is already old ... what can I say .... where is she to the Abrash ... and even more so Merkava ... and the fact that the Yankees bombed again .. it is right .... better than a bomb to attack head-on, well, it's true .. agree .... and about blacks agree ....
                    Quote: andreypilot
                    And again about the main thing ... You forgot about whom and about what feats the article .. We have a different mentality, we are not kamikaze or other warriors .. We want to live, do not want to die, we want to love, get married and raise children, but for the sake of the motherland are ready for everything, and those who died for the sake of the motherland are worthy of respect and worship ...

                    I absolutely agree .. without reservation .... to the very point .... only it is necessary not to die but to think and win ....
                    and house 2 is vomit ... no, I won’t lie, I watched earlier .. back in 2004 .... then they chopped off TNT from us and everything ... they chopped off in 2007 .... I looked, but there was slag complete .... but in my country the king has ruled for 17 years and therefore I don’t like everything ....
            4. +4
              22 November 2011 21: 48
              and weakly quote not those who laughed?
              Quote: Kostyan
              however, like the current army of the Russian Federation ..... the Yankees will immediately overwhelm us .... what, however, they demonstrated in Iraq by putting them on their knees for a month .... is it like that ????

              and you don’t have to kneel down on the mosals from birth apparently
              By the way, as soon as they resisted Pindos in Iraq, they immediately became overwhelmed for a long time, Iraq did not win the war and if you didn’t understand this (although you can’t understand what it is in principle about)
              1. Kostyan
                -7
                23 November 2011 00: 59
                it’s stuck in your opinion .. but in their opinion they didn’t stupidly rush like we stupid people at embrasures with shouts of cheers, and getting ready defeated the enemy without LOSS ... !!!!!!!!! but where to rush .. ?? they did everything right ... it's only our debits .. you can throw your breast at the embrasure ..... and they do everything right ...
            5. +8
              22 November 2011 22: 17
              Quote: Kostyan
              threshed our technology


              He thrashed his tongue

              Flacc ”37 mm caliber with ammunition of 12 rounds for each gun, sighting range 800 m, Minimum height from which the Yu-87 could get out of the dive without crashing - 500 m. Aim to shoot and take the plane out of the dive? Munchausen smokes nervously on the sidelines
              The sides of the T-34 were struck by 37-mm caliber shells only in the vertical lower part and at short distances, and without giving guaranteed armored action, only the engine and the top of the tower, that is, from a steep peak, could be defeated. Not from a gentle slope. Here is a fan of Goering aces
              1. Kostyan
                -11
                23 November 2011 01: 02
                flak 37 is the same mallet ... so it’s not necessary ... and it calmly from 400 meters threw our vaunted 34-ka at least in the forehead at least in the side ... I'm not talking about shells with a tungsten core ... piece for 180 gr. fell down, i.e. the simpleton is sheer ... so go get a smoke and don’t say what you don’t know ....
                1. +6
                  23 November 2011 14: 56
                  You would have been like Humpbacked the best German of the year to Germany, read it bluntly read carefully the way out of the peak of Yu-87 500 meters, the armor penetration of a 37-mm gun with an initial projectile speed of 750-800 m / s was at a distance of 200 m –40-50 mm at a range of 1000 m-20-25 mm. Where did you see that the plane could fly up to the tank at 200m?

                  And the rudel knocked out the gray mare with another IS-2 shell

                  Okay fascists, bye
                  1. Kostyan
                    -6
                    23 November 2011 15: 29
                    so what are you .... he beat from above ... into the engine or tower .. and there what is the armor of my young friend .. ???
                    1. andreypilot
                      +1
                      23 November 2011 20: 48
                      so what are you .... he beat from above ... into the engine or tower .. and there what is the armor of my young friend .. ???

                      Note one phrase, and a little earlier the other:
                      and she calmly from 400 meters threw our vaunted 34-ka at least in the forehead at least in the side ... I'm not talking about shells with a tungsten core ...]

                      Interestingly, the 34-85 in the tower, even with a 75 mm panther gun, had problems, 88 mm at the tiger on the base of the anti-aircraft gun also didn’t always break through, the distance is the main criterion, but ... This is Ruuuuudel, the hero of the Nazis and fascists ... Let them create idols for themselves I hope only Heil will not shout ..
                      1. Kostyan
                        -4
                        23 November 2011 21: 19
                        pilot .... found on waralbum ... our light 70 panthers put 2 in the sideboard ... how ???? that sometimes happens .... but I haven't heard about the problems of panthers with 34 ..... and Rudel was really cool .. read his book "Stuka's pilot" ... everything is very interesting there .. I agree true that he is an ultra-Nazi ... there is no way to take away ...
                      2. andreypilot
                        +1
                        23 November 2011 21: 43
                        to fall 30 times, then from anti-aircraft guns, right now it would be from the MANPADS, I don’t have a buzz .. the man is a piece of iron definitely, but we had it! I am silent about Maresyev, but read the article again, damn heroes!
                      3. porese
                        0
                        6 December 2011 17: 25
                        He praises himself in his memoirs, this Rudel. Only in this way could a soldier of the defeated army make PR and earn a fee and a name on his memoirs ... And I dare to note that not everything was fine in the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe, you should not read memoirs, read the history of that time, even ours, even German, American .... Then they did not lie yet, but how the memoirs went - it started, the business popped up.
                        And about the thing, yes, it was pretty old, but it was constantly upgraded. And about the sorties in the Luftwaffe - if it was considered a sortie with an ammunition strike, you can’t even see the enemy, it’s still fighting. It was different with us.
                        Our loss in airplanes in the first hours only at airfields, with a few exceptions.
                        37mm cannon, I turned the projectile from her armor-piercing armor piercing, nothing special, it’s not scrap, but a simple hard-alloy bullet about 24 mm in diameter in a soft shell and a cut in front, 34 on the forehead, it’s not scary, in the tower in a circle, too, only if in top and then with a large angle, very viscous armor was 34.
                      4. 0
                        21 February 2012 18: 26
                        Quote: Kostyan
                        70 of our light 2 panthers put in the side ... how ????
                        It's very simple, "Panther" was created as a breakthrough tank. Accordingly, the frontal armor is powerful, and the side armor is thinner than that of the T-34, it was easily taken by our "magpie".
                2. 0
                  21 February 2012 16: 03
                  Quote: Kostyan
                  and a piece of 180 gr. fell down, i.e. simpleton sheer

                  Sheer down is 90 degrees, in general, if my memory serves me. I started, soaring.

                  Quote: Kostyan
                  .a piece for 180 gr. fell down, i.e. simpleton sheer ...

                  "Simple sheer" is at an angle of 90 degrees, if my memory serves me. But some are true to the precepts of Goebbels' grandfather "the rougher the lie, the easier it is to believe in it," so it seems.
                3. 0
                  21 February 2012 18: 21
                  Quote: Kostyan
                  and a piece of 180 gr. fell down, i.e. simpleton sheer

                  If the "simpleton is sheer", then it is at 90 degrees. "The more impudent the lie, the more willingly they believe in it" -Y.Gebels.
            6. ISO
              ISO
              0
              10 February 2012 23: 37
              Well, let's say so in the Russian Empire, carburetors and, incidentally, did not produce copper wire. But the red-eyed managed to create on YOUR ELEMENTARY BASE THAT flew and knocked down these same aces on wunderwaffles, incl. and Me-262.
          3. ballian
            -12
            21 November 2011 21: 06
            What other "Il - 2 knocked down"? ? It's funny when the scoops lie directly, and what did you want to say with your speech at all? Rudel made more than 2500 sorties (!) On an assault plane (not even designed for air combat), then it is not surprising that he was shot down 30 times, only arouses respect.
      2. ZHORA
        -18
        21 November 2011 14: 28
        In the sky Pokryshkin pearl of Soviet propaganda ... The Germans had the most severe requirements for the confirmation of a downed plane ... actually read
        Andrey Smirnov
        "Falcons", washed in blood. Why did the Soviet Air Force fight worse than the Luftwaffe?
        1. +8
          21 November 2011 15: 17
          Quote: JORA
          In the sky Pokryshkin pearl of Soviet propaganda



          Again we quote Goebbels? In the philistine environment it has long become fashionable to "overthrow" Alexander Ivanovich from the pedestal.

          As for Pokryshkin, in der luft! There are documents, there is evidence, but I'm too lazy to argue with the Hitler Youth - time to spend
          1. +1
            21 November 2011 17: 42
            rather israel
        2. +3
          21 November 2011 15: 26
          We have the same way. Read the memoirs. In addition to the developed machine gun film, confirmation of the participants in the battle and ground service was required. Read the memories of veterans, not pseudo-historians.
      3. Kostyan
        -12
        21 November 2011 18: 41
        Incidentally taken not from Goebbels speeches. and from the memoirs popel ..... everything is described there .. so there is nothing to nod ....
      4. ballian
        -7
        21 November 2011 21: 08
        You have collected a hodgepodge of several tales trying to prove something here? :)))
        1. Kostyan
          -12
          21 November 2011 21: 26
          tried to show that our air force was crap .. and we never learned to fight in the air .....
        2. ballian
          0
          21 November 2011 22: 22
          Vadivak wrote in general, but here on the site there is complete confusion.
    2. +7
      21 November 2011 18: 46
      So you tell me not ashamed of your same ancestors, who gave their lives for your future? It wasn't they who were to blame for the fact that there were few planes and that they were not taught to fly. Even so in the war, we defeated the Germans, with huge losses, but won.
      1. Kostyan
        -15
        21 November 2011 19: 08
        joker I answer in order .... I’m not ashamed .. the ancestors are heroes, I just had a rotten and dumb head, in the sense of power ... all the military leaders are dumb ... ari. and de..bills ..... but what's the truth ??? what am I saying wrong ??? he said everything correctly .. heaped up with corpses .. there were few planes ??????)))))))))) who said !!!!!)))))))))) can give information on airplanes at the beginning of the war and how many chances were threshed on the first day .. ??)))))) more disgraceful ... but how little do you think .. was there advice from the 4th superiority .. but what kind of ???? 10-fold or something ???? ... did not learn to fly ??? How shoud I understand this?????? pilots were not taught to fly ??? and what did they do ???? waved shovels ??? so it’s already a battalion .....))))))) .. complete b.red .... all resources were depleted ... there were no more people ... put the mustachioed root all .. and after the war continued ... cannibalistic power ......
        1. -6
          21 November 2011 22: 23
          Here you are right, of course, the Russian soldier has always been cannon fodder, just like now, nothing changes.
          1. J_silver
            -2
            21 November 2011 22: 41
            You will, as usual ...
        2. J_silver
          0
          21 November 2011 22: 43
          If you are stupid and ignorant, then - our condolences! sources exist for that to study and analyze them ...
          1. -3
            21 November 2011 22: 56
            Well, what are your analyzes? Even now, look, it seems like it is buying MO equipment, but money is not allocated to the soldiers, just as there was a poor level of training, it remained so, didn’t it? Everyone always forgets the main law of war, people win wars!
            1. J_silver
              0
              21 November 2011 23: 35
              I have no words about the current, except obscene ...
        3. +3
          22 November 2011 21: 56
          Quote: Kostyan
          ce rightly said .. filled up with corpses ..

          I’m writing for the third time I didn’t fill anybody with the Red Army, the loss ratio is 1-1.3 and the main ones in the first stage of the war
          1. Kostyan
            -2
            23 November 2011 01: 05
            full he ... rya ... where is this from ??? from the greens .. old soviet books ... or from the stat. collection about the losses in the Second World War ... complete nonsense ... read about the Nevsky Piglet and everything will become clear to you ..... but what would you calm down, so know that in the 44th scoop began to call 17-year-olds simultaneously with Germany ... here you are not showered ....
            1. 0
              21 February 2012 18: 33
              Kostyan,
              Quote: Kostyan
              read about Nevsky Piglet

              Read about the "Valley of Death", which arranged for the huntsmen near Murmansk.
        4. andreypilot
          +1
          23 November 2011 16: 56
          The army was not to blame, it was beheaded harshly .. How many thrashed .. So, in fact, they did not believe until the last that the Germans would attack .. You must have, you knew! And you knew how to deal with the troops! Maybe Stalin knew and others like him. Do not forget, after 37, everyone was afraid not to say "bless you" when someone said "sneeze, puff .." He commanded a company yesterday, and today he was appointed a lump of a miracle ... And what you say, that everything was ruined by the Reds, the Communists ... These red scum did not let the invaders into our country after the 17th year, they gave pizdyul..y to all Europeans who decided to fuck Russia for free,. Or do you feel sorry that we did not become whose 28 Baku commissars, shot dead, people who laid down their lives for the good of the future. Your beloved Hans were put very harshly on the first day of the war, almost half of the army remembered Bismarck's words about Russia .. You don't like being Russian? Take your passport Israel, the United States, and so on, I think our country without people like you will manage .. it will not become poorer!
          1. Kostyan
            -4
            23 November 2011 17: 12
            they didn’t believe that they would attack .. and that .. this should justify the leadership of the country, you see, they didn’t believe .... so on heh..r such a leadership, didn’t believe .. didn’t wait .... but the red scum .. yes .... I will never deny it .... the power of cannibals and ghouls ... we have thrashed ourselves so much that it’s scary to think ... all these famines and civil wars .. they ... damn it ... they screamed, that we are building the best world and they put it in ... for the world, millions of millions .... tries ... all this was necessary ... what would it be like to sit on collective farms for workdays without a passport .. think why ... the benefit of the future tries .. Hans, by the way, are not my favorites ... and I don’t love Natsik no less than you, but I respect their military skill ... and who they put on the 22nd ... they draped while they could while they carried their legs ....
            1. +1
              23 November 2011 17: 23
              Quote: Kostyan
              did not believe .. did not wait ....

              you will be surprised, but you knew and expected and there is documentary evidence of this
              1. Kostyan
                -2
                23 November 2011 17: 42
                Volodya agrees ... they only knew ... and what conclusions were made ???? here as a saying ..... it was not a bobbin .....
            2. andreypilot
              0
              23 November 2011 18: 36
              And the military skill of the Russian army disgusts you? BELIEVED! Believed in a better future for the common man! Famine? Wars, civilians? Well, tell me about democracy? When almost the whole country recognized the power of the Bolsheviks and agreed with their theses? Or you or yours did the ancestors have a large house or a factory, so much so that it became a pity? Probably it was necessary for the foreigners to lead our country? But didn’t forget what the revolution was about? I advise reading Pikul, Unclean force, maybe a little balloons will open .. .Such as you, bad is good, it's also normal, anyway, we don’t like ... Suck, work, and don’t speak out ..
              1. Kostyan
                -3
                23 November 2011 19: 16
                Quote: andreypilot
                military skill of the Russian army

                the last time at Suvorov ... and no longer ... heroism yeah !!!!!! but skill is not

                Quote: andreypilot
                famines? war, you say civil

                what a trifle, nonsense ..... think 15 million died, well, that's right ... garbage ...
                Quote: andreypilot
                But did not forget, because of what the revolution took place?

                Of course I didn’t forget ... the cattle pissed off and toppled over at the call of the Reds to go home, not the Germans to blame but their own ....... probably cooler ....

                Quote: andreypilot
                Suck, work and not have to speak out

                what's this??? your role ???

                by the way red pi .. gifts in the Brest peace in the know that they have uttered .... the western borders have been moved to the level of the beginning of the 17th century .. what is .. and ??????
                1. andreypilot
                  +2
                  23 November 2011 19: 34
                  the last time at Suvorov ... and no longer ... heroism yeah !!!!!! but skill is not
                  -Brusilov breakthrough? Operation "Bagration"?
                  Attention! You do not have permission to view hidden text.
                  90% of the population are cattle? Isn’t your people? How did the workers live under the tsar? Are you a descendant of the elite? Have you offended you? Have you taken the land and houses? Are you ready to take chickens with us and Germans? Nothing, I also have a grandmother grandfather dispossessed, many cows said .. All the famous designers came out of the people, in tsarist Russia they would not even have the opportunity to make themselves known! You didn’t teach history well, Lenin introduced the NEP, an analogue of the modern market economy, where did he go? , Stalin chopped everything up and destroyed, he did a lot of bad things, all the Communists are bad? Who went to the gallows Do you think that shooting, sincerely believing in the party and the future of your people, is that in your opinion red creatures? Then you didn’t go far from the fascists .. I don’t like Zyuganov and I won’t vote for him, but don’t insult our grandfathers for believing in communist utopia! They were the first to go under the fire of the Germans and call for the people, these are also our heroes, the same as those on Shipka or during the defense of Sevastopol! And think about your character, you hate everything from the beginning, give a little time, maybe it's good, what all the same they are trying to do and it will really be good for our country, one cannot be negative ...
                  1. Kostyan
                    -3
                    23 November 2011 21: 30
                    breakthrough massacre ..... Bagration is beautiful .... there are no questions ... chick Natsik flew strongly ...
                    I called rednecks cowards and scum who ran away from the front and bared him .... they stayed su..ki in St. Petersburg ... and I'm not a descendant of the elite .. the great-grandfather of the railroad in the second with the king in the council was some ... all the designers at komunyaki either were shot or were sitting in sharash .... for years .... and I do not insult my ancestors, they just stupefied their advice and that’s all ... well, how could it be otherwise ... such a utopia ..... deceived and then they all bent ..... and I don’t hate everything .. I say again .. at history and other things you need to look soberly, truthfully and not biased ...... but the fact that trying is so good is I'm all for it......
        5. andreypilot
          +3
          23 November 2011 21: 34
          You have a clever scribe’s head, not rotten and dumb at all, with your thoughts in kindergarten to collect the cubes, you will collect the fastest of all..Excellence in aviation, we were ahead of everyone in general .. You forget that by the age of 41 most the air fleet became obsolete morally, like the tank fleet, all of these bt, tb, i-16 and so on didn’t meet modern requirements, they lost to the Germans, even our pilots fought legs even on i-16 a couple of years after the start of the war, and fought successfully. The presence of new T-34 and KV tanks yielded nothing in terms of superiority over the Germans, since there were few of them, their bro or after any breakdowns, maybe there was little operational experience ... There is something from the version of Suvorov that we were preparing to attack the Germans, but do not forget, we were also preparing to repel German aggression, pulling troops to the western borders .. Destroying to the council of newly-minted chiefs (who became them after the repressions) the old line of defense, implying the construction of a new, so-called Stalin line, along the new border, our country lost good fortified areas along the old line of defense without building a new line by the 41st year .. [quote] the Soviets have 4th superiority .. e ???? 10-fold or something ???? ... did not learn to fly ??? How shoud I understand this?????? pilots were not taught to fly ??? and what did they do ???? waved shovels ??? so this is a building battalion .....)))))) [/ quote] All the superiority burned out at the airfields in the early days, it was not for nothing that Stalin hid for several days in his country house, fearing that they would come to arrest him, he knew that his policy-we do not succumb to provocations, there will be no war, we don’t believe the scouts — they will provocateurs yet ... but how .. he took himself in blinders, how he spent the whole war, except he does not deserve respect ... But 37 years. ..but all repressed generals .. the army lacked brains, academic brains, for the first who fell under the distribution were former tsarist generals and officers, graduates of the Ak Ademias of the Russian General Staff .. Perhaps the exception is the chief of the General Staff of the USSR B.M. Shaposhnikov, who enjoyed great authority with Stalin and whom he called only by his first and middle name .. And the pilots, sorry, we were one of the best pilots, the first aces who who passed Finland, Spain, Khalgin-Gol in the end .. Yes, many others had no experience of fighting and in the air battles with the Germans the guys learned to fight, but according to your mood to explain to you that they are not: [quote] [ waved shovels ??? t / quote] it seems useless ... zig hail to you in eb..lo, I would pack your bags if I were you and go away from here to Germany at least, God forbid, you get caught by our drunken cheers, as you say, you won’t leave alive ..
          1. Kostyan
            -2
            23 November 2011 21: 55
            Quote: andreypilot
            The presence of new T-34 and KV tanks yielded nothing in terms of advantage over the Germans, since there were few of them,

            well, it’s poor, but 1500 were .. how much kleist had in the 1st tank group of tanks? right 800 .. and all the crap is almost .. and with us? 8 BAGS ... about how ...
            I say ... the head was rotten ... give a moron a microscope in his hands, he will break it ... and on the 22nd it burned down how much ... 2000 ... was it ??? so .... read on Wikipedia how many there were and what what .... and the mustachioed truth is about ... shit ... hmm ... scary ... su ... ka ..... why don’t you have with us the hero was given for 3 shot down ??? think .. and the Hans? there is a difference .. and even then on our front they were given a cross only for our 50 shot down .. how is this to be understood? and what does it mean guys learned to fight .. it was necessary to learn before the war ... and not during ... the military and pay for what they would at the right time give their lives for their homeland .. and so they turn out just parasites .. ..they studied .. like the generals sra..ny .. studied by the blood of our ancestors ... and again .. I'm not a Nazi, I'm for the truth in history ...
            1. andreypilot
              +1
              23 November 2011 22: 23
              On July 4, 1941, the commander of the 401th Special Fighter Aviation Regiment, GSS, Lt. Col. Suprun S.P., covering a group of bombers, alone fought with six enemy fighters, was mortally wounded and died, having managed to land a damaged fighter. By decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of July 22, 1941 for courage and heroism shown in air battles with superior enemy aviation forces, S. Suprun the first during the Great Patriotic War was awarded the second Gold Star medal (posthumously
              In the Great Patriotic War, the fighter pilots were the first to be awarded fighter pilots junior lieutenants Zhukov MP, Zdorovtsev SI and Kharitonov P.T., distinguished themselves in air battles with enemy bombers, tearing to Leningrad. On June 27, these pilots in their I-16 fighters used ramming attacks against enemy Ju-88 bombers. The title of GSS was awarded to them by Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR of July 8, 1941
              1. andreypilot
                0
                23 November 2011 23: 01
                and who showed about 3 downed? heroes were given for the number of sorties, for each class of vehicle a separate situevina, about downed cars and individual situations were all considered separately ..
                1. Kostyan
                  -3
                  24 November 2011 09: 27
                  I never heard the answer .. why is there such a difference between us and the Germans in rewarding for the downed planes ... and why is there such a big difference between the eastern and western fronts, where even the Germans could not beat the Anglo-Saxons since us .....
                  1. +1
                    24 November 2011 15: 29
                    and you can’t explain why the Nato aces who fought on the western front successfully died or were shot down precisely on the eastern
                    1. Kostyan
                      -3
                      24 November 2011 22: 49
                      for example, who? it doesn’t matter ..... an accident ..... probably the anti-aircraft gun filled up .....
              2. Kostyan
                -3
                24 November 2011 09: 24
                Quote: andreypilot
                fought alone with six enemy fighters

                Why you are alone? attack results ?? why do so .. look real guy, not a coward .... but he died without causing any cause to the business .... the Germans pounded a professional and that’s all ....
            2. andreypilot
              0
              23 November 2011 22: 58
              we must not forget that the new tanks were dispersed at least along the western border, while the Germans' tanks were concentrated in powerful strike groups ... what does Kleist and his 800 "shit almost" have to do with it?
              On June 22, 1941, in the East, including the reserve of the Wehrmacht's High Command (2nd and 5th Panzer Divisions), about 3680 tanks were concentrated, in North Africa - about 350
              this time .. two- what is the opinion that German tanks
              almost all shit ..
              ? All of Europe was bent, except for the T-34 and KV, which German (then Czech) tanks couldn’t know about; almost all of Europe’s tanks could be knocked down! It was because of the collision with our new tanks that the Germans modernized their equipment, the T-4 real example ...
              1. Kostyan
                -2
                24 November 2011 09: 40
                oh well ... God bless them with those new tanks pilot .... (though we had them like the Germans in the 4th and 1st tank groups combined, oh well) ... and the rest? where were you? more or less thousand 15 of them were hanging out there ... and Kleist despite the fact that having 800 tanks, there weren’t more wedges (t-1 wedge-not even more likely an armored car, only on tracks, t-2 also wedge, t-3 already something similar, but there was a clapper, and the T-4 was generally an infantry escort tank with a short-barreled gun) ... threshed our whole herd, not to name it another way ... put 8 mechanized corps ... and I don’t have to blame the pier for surprise, cool German tanks and aviation .... only a ram could put such a number of tanks, ghouls ... the military, it’s for nothing mine if my bread and .. did not know how to bastard .. you ....
                and the German tanks of Europe they didn’t bring down everything in a row .. matilda (a thick-skinned lady) and churchill were too tough for them ...
        6. 0
          21 February 2012 18: 31
          "The best win in the war. In this war the Russians turned out to be the best" -V. Schellenberg.
      2. 0
        22 November 2011 21: 55
        the ratio of losses in that war is 1-1.3 so that we didn’t overwhelm anyone with labor, we just need to be able to count
    3. Den_tw
      0
      22 November 2011 16: 57
      I agree with Kostya, how many tanks, guns were there - ZIS-3 was put on Marder - how could it be possible to delay .. 41-42gg? Why did they storm the forehead near Yelnya - what is the plan of the operation? Compare the characteristics of T-34 and T4 ... the Germans beat us with skill and we don’t need to be afraid of this - we need to confess, and then we learned. but 41-42 is a shame.
      1. J_silver
        -1
        22 November 2011 19: 59
        The T-4 will be any stronger than the T-34, but with a 75 mm long-barrel - almost several times ...
        1. +3
          22 November 2011 22: 27
          Quote: J_Silver
          -4 any stronger than the T-34 will be,


          Until a certain time, read the classics

          Baryatinsky - in 1940 - 1941 in Europe there were only two full-fledged medium tanks - T-34 and Pz.IV. Pz.IV was conceived and created as an assault tank, designed to deal with enemy firing points, but not with its tanks. In this regard, the T-34 was more versatile and, as a result, according to the declared characteristics, the best medium tank for 1941 in the world.
          In 1942, the Germans went around us and until the end of 1943 the combat characteristics of the T-34 remained virtually unchanged, Pz.IV took first place among medium tanks. The answer, both Soviet and American, was not long in coming.
          in 1944, having installed a 76-mm long-barreled cannon on the Sherman, the Americans caught up with the Pz.IV, and we, having launched the T-34-85 into the series, overtook it. The Germans had no time or opportunity for a worthy answer.
        2. Den_tw
          0
          23 November 2011 14: 26
          Well wait J_Silver - I'll be back home - I'll get the Tank Encyclopedia - you'll be beaten by it!
      2. andreypilot
        0
        23 November 2011 17: 23
        Before you find fault, at least read the wiki! History, in the end .. The main amount of equipment concentration is in the west, without prepared bunkers, without ready-made specialists, some on vacation, others on study, destroyed the old line of defense, prepared a new , the line of Stalin, but as always lied about readiness, no one wanted to land .. of all the USSR Armed Forces, the bulk of the tanks were old .. What number of T4 tanks did the Germans prepare for Kursk, with which trunks, how many panthers and tigers, ferdinants and etc., in fact, they were preparing for this battle, preparing a report on the graduation in history for sure I can say, while reading the documents, ours first met with the whole zoo of the Germans, it was after the Kursk arc that the T34-85, IS, IS-2 entered the army. Tanks, ready to be beaten on equal terms with the Germans .. T-34-76, which they beat the zoo right on the side, didn’t think of sitting out in the bushes, flew in all pairs at the side of it. heavy and shot him ... about the disgrace of the retreat ... - probably our youth, having seen enough of house-2, thinking that if it’s lying down alone, it can pile on all., and if it doesn’t work, then run away, also thinks about the army .. But. after the aggression of Georgia, they screamed most of all that we I’m not eating myself right, the Georgians guys are nothing, especially when they give me money for beer .. let us pity them ... but for some reason their (Georgians) records of the attack are more like a diary of a crazy person .. And yet .. for you, look and learn how to be a man, can you jump with a parachute .. http: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = 4mx8mEGCQFY & feature = related -such as you run, and we, as you say, are pseudo patriots, we fight !! Hooray Russia and the sun!
        1. Kostyan
          -2
          23 November 2011 17: 52
          pilot, I’ll say it again .... I don’t hay .... I say what happened ..... I’m not a Russophobe, but vice versa ... you just need to know the truth, so as not to repeat the mistakes of our ancestors in the future .. ..about tanks ... already tired of telling me .... what does old tanks mean ???? what is their percentage ... how many tanks were there ... yes about the tanks neh .. and say .... 22 TVS. by 4, that's the whole tale .... about aircraft the same ... read the Beshanov tank case and everything will become clear ... what about Kursk ???? having forces 2 times more with the steppe .. we managed to ... fuck almost everything and occupied only Oryol and what's there ... Belgorod ... think .. we lost more on the defensive in the offensive with the Germans having more troops and technicians .. how's that ???? what can I talk about .... and it wasn’t the fault of our guys that they fought on the coffins .... and don’t mix Georgia, their people and eb..lana ne..dika miho .......
        2. Den_tw
          +2
          23 November 2011 22: 29
          So, for J_Silver and andreypilot. Encyclopedia of tanks (Colonel General S. Maev) PzIV armor: hull forehead-50mm / board-30 / tower-50 gun-75/24, T-34 45/45/52, respectively, tilt angle 45 *, gun 76/30 -41. The question is - who is better? The number on June 22, PzIV - 439 pieces. T-34 -655pcs. Who has more? Moreover, the Germans did not have KV-1 75/75/75 barrel 76, the Red Army - 636 pieces. How to destroy the KV-1? and KV-2? and T-28, T-35? The colonel general himself explains - we had worse tactics - conducting a constant offensive, including on the defensive, fired on the move - without stopping, but the Germans just stopped, there was no attack from the ambush - we are MUZZERS! GIVE A TARAN! and even the T-26, BT of all modifications are similar or better than German tanks - 18138pcs. All data from the encyclopedia of Colonel General. That's who wrote the tactics, who accepted it - that’s all our losses. I often drive past places where search engines work - fresh graves appear, Russian broken helmets - sorry for the guys - the generals are to blame. How could you lose the experimental Katyusha in the first battle - this is a secret weapon, but where is the military guard? Katyusha blew Flerov to the enemy did not get - well, how to prepare this first and last battle? Take the memoirs of Marshal Konev - he narrates from 43g, and why don't you, Marshal about 41-42gg say nothing? For the sake of the dead soldiers could tell the truth - a bitter, but the truth. Stand gentlemen over the graves of those soldiers and answer why, having such super-tanks, such super-humans - wars, designers, workers - a German in 41-42. spit as I wanted. My answer is mediocre generals. Near Kiev prosral FIVE armies !!! All I have no words ...
          1. Kostyan
            -3
            24 November 2011 09: 44
            Dan is all right .. and I’m talking about the same thing .... and I was immediately amazed like a sucker and a Russophobe ... they have a simple technique, a substitution of concepts ... you just need to know the truth ....
          2. andreypilot
            0
            24 November 2011 14: 43
            there was no attack from the ambush - after all, we are MEN! GIVE A TARAN!

            It was at the beginning of the war that tank ambushes were widely used, covering the withdrawing troops ..
            1. Kostyan
              -1
              24 November 2011 14: 51
              yeah .. under the fords ..))))))
          3. J_silver
            +1
            24 November 2011 23: 06
            You would have thought a little before angry philippics break out! T-34 lost in the main thing - ease of use! The low reliability of the first cars, and this is a fact, a very cramped tower, and this is also a fact, extremely poor surveillance devices, bad guns and even more bad shells, poor crew training - these are terrifying losses! What will you do? Well there is nothing better! Modified, improved, trained - and in the end won! The T-34-85 is a completely different tank, and other people fought on them ... But one of my grandfathers registered in Ukraine near Kharkov from May 1942 - thanks to my dear Nikita Sergeevich to a large extent ...
    4. +2
      22 November 2011 21: 43
      tell you in the face did not spit ?!
      Quote: Kostyan
      our aviation was crap

      shit is it you bad those boys fought well, but thanks to them such a jerk came to light
      cries about how they rolled us down, drowned, drowned, etc.
      it still rolled in the late 80s when shit was poured on all ushattas and it was very difficult to distinguish truth from lies, but today such statements are worthy only of contempt.

      According to German archival documents, Hitler aviation from June 22, 1941 to December 31, 1943 only lost about 15 thousand fighters. Of these, 2581 aircraft were shot down on the Western Front and over Germany during the reflection of the raids of Anglo-American aviation, or 17 percent of the total number of losses ...

      Quote: Kostyan
      our aviation was crap ...

      Already in February 1942, the leadership of the German aviation industry noted:


      "The Soviet aircraft captured as trophies prove that in recent years there has been an unexpected technical breakthrough in the development of aircraft construction in the USSR. Moreover, in some areas their competitiveness is noted in comparison with the best products of Europe and America."
      And here are the lines from a document dated April 1942:


      "It should be noted that the Soviet engine building made an unexpectedly big leap forward, and not only quantitatively, but also qualitatively in comparison with other belligerent states."

      in short, that under the taboo of viburnum the bridge collapsed and not a single haircut flew up to you am
      1. Kostyan
        -3
        23 November 2011 01: 22
        connoisseurs .. here's the aspect ratio ...
        the numbers on the Soviet-German front — first because of Germany’s very limited release of fighters, and then because of the need to withstand powerful US and British aircraft — were very
        limited (as of January 1, 1943 in Soviet-German
        front there were about 12300 Soviet aircraft,
        but only 395 German day fighters, as of January 1
        1944 - 13 and 400, respectively). In those conditions, from 473 / s to 2/3 of her strength began to absorb
        opposition to Anglo-American air
        attack on the Reich. like this .... and these guys of ours drove in the tail and mane ... a disgrace .....
        15 thousand ... heh..nya ... komunyakov .... myth ... here are the true data ..
        all for the war the loss of our fighters is 20 and the chances are 700 ...... so don’t need Lalya ... our planes .. plywood and coffins ... there were no engines at all except an air star ..... I do not belittle the courage of our heroes pilots .... fought against all odds ... but did not learn to fight and fly ... sad ...
      2. ballian
        -2
        23 November 2011 21: 38
        Dear - in general, the war went on from the fall of 39 to May 45 - so your numbers somehow missed (you didn't even give a link, - "German archival documents" - this is designed for idiots, but did not forget to highlight them in red) but what about Soviet aviation motobuilding - a big breakthrough continued before the war (due to copy-paste of Western engines) - during the war it was in a terrible stagnation (read Solonina)
        your quote does not say anything at all about how our aviation developed during the war - "recent years" ..... even if they knew what to copy and paste.
        1. 0
          23 November 2011 21: 55
          Apparently you studied a different story, the conversation is not about World War II, but about the Second World War, and if it was about World War II, it ended in the spring of 2
        2. Kostyan
          -3
          23 November 2011 22: 08
          from Sokolov took .. about falcons washed with blood ...
    5. andreypilot
      0
      23 November 2011 15: 49
      You damn think, in 41-42 they bombed Berlin with their superiority in the air .. Well, which ones are not skillful .. You have to beat your face and change your name to some kind of Fritz, and believe me, you get caught, Troll fuck ..y, I’ll tear your eggs out, fuck you like hell, I don’t like everything Russian -... in the USA, such as you are waiting there, workers on a loader and with great conceit, but only without going beyond .. Who goes- they already started to poison them .. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU, how would you meet the Germans, piss yourself from fear or go and help the old people and other village people to lock them in sheds? the Germans crouched for war — our aviation was the queen of the sky! Aviation shit and all shit smeared? -Well, what flower grew on fertilizer! Our pilots, even with the most average training, are the best .. Korea and Vietnam-Pindos, they recall with a shudder .. Pindos are even aloud afraid to say the test results, the confrontation of our category 4 ++ aircraft against a wide range of their aircraft, up to the 5th generation .. And if you grew up with diarrhea in your soul, you’re sorry for all and will remain, I wish you on time paper, with you I think even in pa No one would want to live in the campaign, even now, we love our country, and you have it ... Wait, I personally will find a rubber phallus that I put in your mouth, for a start ... Shut up your shit fountain .. Who interesting, Soforumites, how to train combat pilots in Lipetsk-
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJl02345vgI&feature=youtu.be -Росия,союз,братья славяне-можно много сказать лозунгов,давайте жить как кот Леопольд-в дружбе!!!
      1. Kostyan
        -4
        23 November 2011 16: 33
        wai wai ... what a plebeian way of Andrei ... ah yay yay .. it’s not good to say that ... snot rub your puppy ... damn .. .. don’t say those words whose meaning you don’t know .. and I didn’t offend you .. you yourself started a bitch ... what do you rip me ???? interesting...???? serve with my army in \ h 1259 and then I look what you are a fighter .... insulting a person without knowing him, you can answer .. yes Andrew ... they cleared the sky .. crap .. fuck ... both beat and beat ... the amount may have been a little blamed and then pissed off into the battle .. not all of course .. but mostly .... oh your favorite planes of the Russian Federation, they fall in packs wherever they pour ... starting from Korea and ending with livia ... and iraq .... as there were coffins and remained ... bitch ... w
        1. +1
          23 November 2011 16: 47
          Quote: Kostyan
          serve with me in the army in \ h 1259

          are you military?!
          what a nightmare, you are a military man who does not understand what irretrievable losses are, who do not know the history of his own army !!!!
          and your last name is not Serdyukov for an hour?
          By the way, where is your unit and what rank did you serve in ?!
          1. Kostyan
            -3
            23 November 2011 17: 24
            I served in PV ... but you can learn about losses from an Internet ....
            1. 0
              23 November 2011 17: 44
              about whose losses, you have already given so many people that even Serdyukov would have understood
              1. Kostyan
                -1
                23 November 2011 18: 13
                think for yourself ... 40 million passed through the war, and ended with the 6th ... the state’s mobile reserve 20% .. MEAN AGAIN 40 MILLION ... so who would end the war with if it weren’t for the Anglo-Saxons ... about the losses ....
        2. andreypilot
          -1
          23 November 2011 18: 57
          Puppy? I started? You shit with your shit are ready to smear everyone who had a "misfortune" in your opinion to be born in Russia .. But you have to keep away from the army, damn it, you’re the first to run over to those who will wave their snickers and tell you about development crap .. Well, he is proud that mature .. 31st Guards Nikopol Red Banner Order of Suvorov lll degree named after.
          Hero of the Soviet Union
          Glazov Nikolay Elizarovich
          fighter aviation regiment, military unit 82550 9 OBATO, Falkenberg city, GSVG, suck the devil a stick, pour your shit on your loved ones, maybe they will not kill you, but as they say in a joke, it’s warm, sit and tweet ..
          1. Kostyan
            -2
            23 November 2011 19: 12
            I don’t understand .. what does shit mean ... I’m only telling the truth ... and only the truth .. whatever it is .. so nah .. then you can teach history so that you can grind rubbish ... you can't ...
        3. andreypilot
          0
          23 November 2011 19: 13
          and then pissed into battle get involved ..
          you know, sophorums, tired of such trolololo, can a person be too lazy to read the history of the Russian (Soviet) Air Force? Or does he relate this article to another fairy tale story? I do not belong to people who initially put the stigma of distrust on any material that was based on Soviet historical documents, after all, it was strictly then ... I believe the documents, I believe that there were simple 20-year-old guys who were ready to sacrifice their lives for the sake of their country, am I a pseudo-patriot or how else will they call us names? Suvorov? Pot capacious? Brusilov? Zhukov? Rokossovsky? I always have a glass half full, I believe in the best!
      2. andreypilot
        0
        23 November 2011 19: 01
        Sorry, in a hurry, upset because of some negativity from those present - RUSSIA!
      3. Den_tw
        +1
        23 November 2011 23: 31
        andreypilot, let other people express their opinion. Opinion different from yours - not a reason "fuck .. th, I'll rip your balls out, fuck you like a devil", "rubber phalos, which I'll put in your mouth, for a start ... Shut up your fountain of crap." Your opponent has never insulted you. And your shit shimmers across the screen. Do we have such people in the Armed Forces, at the red button? Now it is clear why the West is building missile defense - it is simply afraid of these "people" full of hatred.
        1. 0
          23 November 2011 23: 37
          Quote: Den_TW
          Your opponent has never offended you.

          it becomes scary that people insult their ancestors and smile and rejoice like children
          1. Kostyan
            -1
            24 November 2011 09: 46
            I do not insult, I say again .. I carry a beam of truth for people .. !!!
            1. 0
              24 November 2011 15: 31
              yoklmn, so you’re a light, but we’re orphans, well, excuse me, we don’t recognize
  6. spok
    +4
    21 November 2011 11: 49
    may soon have to repeat what our ancestors did
    1. Kostyan
      -11
      21 November 2011 13: 47
      repeat what ???? throw fields with corpses ...... remember .. if they take on us .. we’ll end .... scatter like a house of cards, and units of fanatics will run around the forests with Kalash, the hunt for which from the Yankees and NATO will turn into an exciting sport ... we have nothing to oppose the west ....
      1. +5
        21 November 2011 14: 37
        Quote: Kostyan
        repeat what ???? throw the corpses of the field ...... remember.


        Katz offers to give up .....
        1. Kostyan
          -6
          21 November 2011 18: 43
          Katz captured our Great Empire in the 17th .... we were about ... shredding it back then ...
      2. Gur
        +7
        21 November 2011 15: 45
        Well then what are you actually afraid of ??? You have already prepared, if anything, your jar of jam. And there have always been more fans in Russia than bad guys.
      3. strelok-07
        +3
        21 November 2011 16: 21
        Yes, you are not sts, you will not see this. If ours are not shot, then you’ll drown in your own shit. So think what the hell are you talking about.
      4. +2
        21 November 2011 23: 27
        It seems to me that you are a Cossack mishandled, Kostyan, a NATO spy.
    2. Artemka
      -1
      21 November 2011 13: 54
      This is hardly how you imagine it. Airplanes rush at a speed of more than a thousand kilometers per hour.
  7. ZHORA
    -3
    21 November 2011 11: 56
    The Germans also used rams in the last years of the war ... and in general, to be sincere with themselves, the Germans were cool ...

    "Hans-Ulrich Rudel (German: Hans-Ulrich Rudel; July 2, 1916 - December 18, 1982) - the most effective pilot of the Ju-87" Stuka "dive bomber during World War II. The only holder of the full bow of the Knight's Cross: with Golden Oak Leaves , Swords and Diamonds (since December 29, 1944) The only foreigner awarded Hungary's highest award, the Gold Medal of Valor, surpassed only by Hermann Goering in the number of Rudel's awards.

    According to the official data of the Luftwaffe [3], Rudel made 2530 sorties (the largest number among the pilots of World War II [4]), during which Rudel destroyed about 2500 units of military equipment, including 519 tanks (according to other sources, 532 tanks [5 ]), 150 self-propelled guns, 4 armored trains, 800 vehicles, numerous, but not countable, small craft such as rafts, motor boats, etc., which the Red Army command used to transfer troops over water, also participated in the heating of two cruisers , destroyer and battleship " Arat. "
    Most of the flights took place on various modifications of the Shtuk diving bomber Yu-87, which became highly effective for destroying tanks after installing two guns in the underwing gondolas at Rudel’s insistence [6].
    At the end of the war, he also flew an Fw 190 fighter. He shot down 9 enemy planes - 2 Il-2 attack aircraft and 7 fighters (perhaps one of the pilots who died from his actions in battle was the famous Soviet ace Lev Shestakov) [7].
    Rudel himself was shot down 32 times during the Second World War (always only by anti-aircraft artillery), and was seriously injured several times. The last time a 40 mm anti-aircraft shell hit his leg was injured, however, he continued to fly even after amputation of his leg below the knee. After the war, he was arrested by the Americans.

    Battleship "Marat"
    September 23, 1941 the battleship "Marat", which participated in the defense of Leningrad, received a direct hit by two bombs, one of which was dropped by Rudel. As a result of the explosion of the ammunition of the bow tower, the ship broke into two parts (the moment of the attack was shot by the shooter K. Bayer) and lay on the ground [8].
    The stern part of the battleship, in which three of the four three-gun towers were preserved, which sat on the ground near the wall of the Kronstadt harbor, after rising to the surface, was used under the name "Volkhov" as an artillery battery and fortification. According to Rudel himself, he successfully attacked the Marat twice - on September 16, he dropped two 500 kg bombs onto the deck, and on September 22 it was he who dropped that 1000 kg bomb, which led to the flooding of the ship [9]. The last statement is confirmed by a photograph taken by Rudel's tail gunner at the moment he leaves the dive, which shows the explosion of a battleship. It is interesting that Rudel’s colleagues and the Luftwaffe command also believed that it was Rudel who sank the Marat.
    1. +6
      21 November 2011 18: 55
      Well, you bent of course, do you think then American pilots are cool, what is cool when you stupidly drop bombs on the enemy who has nothing to answer? Read the story, in our first months many airdromes with airplanes were destroyed, and the Germans attacked just when we began rearmament. Read the book by Vasily Zaitsev, you will learn a lot of interesting things, for example, that already in the middle of the war our soldiers were dressed and armed better than German soldiers, all the opponents who fought with us in the whole history could not stand the long wars, and we already have it norm of life, the same Americans, yes they are well armed and equipped, but when they start to suffer heavy losses, and they are inevitable, they will crawl back with their tail tucked up because their soldiers never saw such fights when from your platoon after 20 minutes of battle survive xnumx% he and they’ll run away, no one will die for money. Moreover, one Russian word sounds awful to them and they are afraid of it, Arnold Schwarzenegger played a role in this in the film Red Heat, whoever saw me would understand.
      1. Kostyan
        -5
        21 November 2011 19: 26
        Zhora you are well done. That's right ... American pilots are very cool ... it’s so ... and not otherwise .. they put everything on the Luftwaffe ... they killed it ... mother ... and that’s the way it is, there’s nothing to drop bombs on the enemy answer .. this is absolutely normal .... but what is better to fill up with corpses .... it’s only de..beat can do it and the councils did so ... and by the way we have rearmament all our life in the army ..))) )))) I am sure that if Hitler attacked after 10 years, then we would have been re-equipped ..))))))))))))))) our soldiers were dressed and shod and armed .. true ... only thanks to Lend-Lease .... if it weren’t for the help of the Anglo-Saxons ... it would be much harder for us .... they put us all in the most difficult moments .... and the Yankees are fighting absolutely right .. Better to bomb than to lose people .. But as Pindos run away, I did not see something ... only the whole world bends ....
        1. +1
          21 November 2011 19: 32
          a real example - Somalia - they skidded from there, Vietnam, and now we are observing Afghanistan (I am already silent about the British, when the young state flooded into Canada - so then the White House was burned) and to put the world in cancer - so you are talking about Iraq, Libya, and the "superpower" Yugoslavia - which was torn apart by the whole "civilized" world !? and to fight the entire anti-Hitler coalition (except for the USSR) in Africa against 7 divisions - which have no fuel or food - and shout that they won the war - clowns! And about Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki - it's better not to remember
          1. Kostyan
            -5
            21 November 2011 19: 51
            in Somalia, the Yankees had a company ... and they didn’t capture the country of black-assed macaques ..... Vietnam pissed off yes .. I agree .... in Afgan too, a puncture .. I agree ..... but in Yugoslavia they did it normally. ... filled up with the wrong hands and bombed .. than not an example of a strategy of indirect actions .... but in Africa the result is known ... they filled up all the chances and captured ... there were more than 300 thousand prisoners by the way .. yes I agree in Africa these Okinleks and Monti were stupid ... but if you look like this ... they won the WWII ... we just played the role of an anvil, cannon fodder that broke the Wehrmacht hammer .. but they won ... we were just too stupid and not far away .... and all these cities .. I can say that the Natsik practiced total bombing .. an example of England and Stalingrad ... so here it’s all about garlic ....
            1. J_silver
              +2
              21 November 2011 22: 51
              Stupid you, hoopoe, and every new post confirms this ...
              1. Kostyan
                -4
                21 November 2011 23: 44
                that the truth hurts my eyes ....
        2. +3
          21 November 2011 19: 32
          Whole world is who? Libyans or what? Iraqis? Who else? In that they know how to make money in any situation, no one argues. Here is an example
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ9ifgyDJ5I
          I think many will find it informative
          1. Kostyan
            -4
            21 November 2011 19: 55
            and what Iraq is not an example ... The 5th country in the world in armaments .. and armed by the way exclusively with Soviet weapons was crushed to the smithereens .... than not an example .. ?????? in short, they will want everyone they want .. and they will fill up ... we just have nothing to oppose them now ... we are all a bunch of Aboriginal people in front of them armed with primitive weapons, WWII level against their background and nothing will save us if that ... and soon vigorous bombs in the Russian Federation will rot ... then you have to wait .. and unfortunately there is nothing to contrast ...
            1. J_silver
              -1
              21 November 2011 22: 52
              Not defeated. and bought - there is a difference ...
              1. Kostyan
                -4
                21 November 2011 23: 46
                bought ... this is a fairy tale that drives the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation to justify the loss of sovkovgo weapons .... all this shit was torn apart in a matter of days .. a disgrace ... one r ..... and not a weapon .. you have to look the truth in eyes...
              2. nmd_1
                +1
                22 November 2011 08: 40
                Kostyunya - Troll, do not feed him. By the naivete of children, he perceives only movies and comics, well, maximum Wikipedia.
                1. Kostyan
                  -5
                  22 November 2011 09: 42
                  but you’re in vain .... he served in the army as early as 11 years ago .... you’re just chewing and snotting all snot .. I’m .... we are we ..... them .. you don’t you can because your military leaders are a herd of sheep, and even more so .... we need to look soberly at things ...
        3. stalker
          -2
          21 November 2011 20: 20
          Lend-lease helped a lot in the initial period of the war with tanks, armored personnel carriers, trucks, airplanes, food, but not with clothes and shoes, since everyone was in padded jackets and felt boots, but they didn’t let such out in the West)
          1. Kostyan
            -5
            21 November 2011 20: 36
            the councils were saved by Mongolia ..... short fur coats .. and with our eternal sloppiness even those would not be enough .. and only God saved the scoop .... the Soviet rulers were all about to get the hell out of the way .... if they had been preliminarily fellow citizens did not raise ....
            1. stalker
              0
              21 November 2011 20: 49
              Well, if only with wool and skins, but our grandmothers and great-grandmothers sewed, for which they bow to the earth.
          2. J_silver
            0
            21 November 2011 22: 53
            In the initial period, we were left to our own devices, it was only then that supplies were established ...
            1. Kostyan
              -1
              21 November 2011 23: 50
              to yourself this is how ???? it is not clear ... but who was to call .... ???? do not forget that the mustachioed pi..dor started the war with Hitler .. tore the smelly Europe to pieces together .. and Molotov tapped out welcome telegrams to Berlin for every occasion about the next capture of the next capital ..))))) just a mustachioed about .. .e..b..also in politics ... that..some kill..bast ... only a scoop could put millions and still be proud of it ....
        4. kostya
          0
          22 November 2011 16: 22
          what are you talking about, what’s the coolness of Amer’s pilots, and who put the Luftwaffe on your knees? Did you see everything yourself? And if the Pindos are so cool then they missed the attack on the Pearl Harbor? They bombed them Japs in the tail and mane. Almost the entire fleet lost from this air attack .. in Yugoslavia, their vaunted invisibles shot down from Soviet air defense of the 60s. And they don’t bend the world, but only bomb those countries that can’t fight back because they don’t have modern weapons, but the day will come and they will bend Pindos, and they will not be able to unbend later.
          1. Kostyan
            -2
            22 November 2011 17: 55
            Kostya, what do you ... Ocst ...... our praised mustachioed falcons will meet and were afraid of the yagdfligers in an open battle .... and the Lutwaffs raped the Yankees with Johnny is a fact .... and the pearl harbor .. it's about .... Yankee fuck ... yes ... no one fucked up ... well, the result is known .... the japas just crap ... then fought on the midway and marshals, etc. .... and our brother Yugoslavia .... which by the way oh e ... b..any authorities of the Russian Federation sold and betrayed and about ... shit .... they threshed as they wanted ...... and all these snotty and slobbering lamentations about the downed bullshit aircraft ... so a minor oversight ..... and how to understand weak countries ... Iraq was the 5th armament in the world .. and what ????? sucks slowly and Pindos eb..lanov ......
            1. +2
              22 November 2011 18: 12
              Well, you and the joker, America got into the war unprepared and with bad weapons, before the war they had no professional army and you want to say that their pilots shot down armfuls of German planes? Wake up and think with your own head, and not the propaganda films of which you have seen enough. If the United States were as cool as you say, why does it, as a whole, squeeze around us and not attack? Yes, they have a good army at the present time, but they never suffered heavy losses, but left in all wars by bombing, and it willn’t roll like that with us, and they stupidly don’t stretch their armies without air support for a couple of months, as an example Georgia, you were also armed cool, but they grabbed the lyuley quickly, even a super duper cool American weapon did not help. You did not grind nonsense, think with your own head and not the films of which you have seen enough, compare the facts and draw conclusions. In World War II, their most real help was Lend Lease, all of them were terrible warriors, and when they fought with the British they always put them in the second line, because they fought hard and did not know how to fight. Read the records of the English warriors. The fact that Hollywood shows you is all fiction, a fairy tale.
              1. Kostyan
                -1
                23 November 2011 18: 29
                Quote: Joker
                their pilots shot down armfuls of German aircraft?

                exactly. 4 \ 5 German aviation fought in the west, what does this mean ???
                Quote: Joker
                how the whole presses around us and does not attack

                are they sick ??? we have a vigorous club, and even that will soon decay, then we will wait ...

                Quote: Joker
                they never suffered heavy losses

                but why, they already fulfilled all the assigned tasks without big losses ..
                Quote: Joker
                they were always put on the second line,

                and who then fought in the first in Normandy ???

                Quote: Joker
                they squabbled strongly and did not know how to fight.

                who then liberated the europeans .. ???
            2. kostya
              +1
              22 November 2011 18: 18
              how were you afraid? Who then shot down the Germans? How did the pilots heroes Pokryshkin, Kozhedub and others also feared? But what about the war in Korea, what can you say when our Pindos pilots shot down there in an air battle, and there were many conflicts where the Russians and Amers were in direct contact came in. and you say it feels like you taught history from Amer’s textbooks, where I won’t be surprised if it is written that the valiant Pindos army defeated Napoleon in the Battle of Borodino.
        5. 0
          22 November 2011 22: 02
          Quote: Kostyan
          and what is better to fill up with corpses ....

          and you can give examples in numbers
          1. Kostyan
            -1
            23 November 2011 01: 23
            straight in the morning and bring .....
        6. andreypilot
          0
          23 November 2011 18: 09
          Wow, the Germans began to feel sorry for you, to hell with the furnace .. After the revolution, the Americans and the British and the French wanted to bend us, and, it’s necessary, even the Germans .. You’re an unwise person, you don’t understand anything, not love for the Motherland , no relation to the invaders, who is raping our country, you, who are bending asshole under the rapist, wait a bit, maybe Putin will have you like an enemy, although I think that you who are more fond of ..
          and the Yankees are fighting absolutely right ... it’s better to bomb than lose people.
          it was enough for Vietnam to look at their napalm .. At Gaddafi and Hussein .. also ... And at your friends, concentration camps .. Once again I say, get me, I’ll break your fucking heart, you changed the dialect, you look you will understand another’s problems people and become an internationalist
          1. Kostyan
            -1
            23 November 2011 18: 34
            Germans feel sorry .. I don’t remember .... I generally pokh on them .... hk oh well ....

            Quote: andreypilot
            After the revolution they wanted to bend us

            not us but the red ones ..

            Quote: andreypilot
            neither love for the motherland, nor attitude to the invaders who rape our country,

            it is not true...

            Quote: andreypilot
            who bends asshole under the rapist,

            why do you think so???

            Quote: andreypilot
            Vietnam had enough to look at their napalm .. At Gaddafi and Hussein .. also ... And at your friends, concentration camps ..

            not at all in the subject ... oh baby .... are you okay ...

            Quote: andreypilot
            Schaub, you changed the dialect

            what do you mean..???
    2. J_silver
      0
      21 November 2011 22: 49
      Yes, Rudel made many sorties, yes, he is one of those who were called paratroopers - usually many shots were enough for many. to calm down forever ... But! There is no confirmation of the declared figures of the destroyed equipment, although we can definitely say that there are a lot of them, and secondly, very many people attribute it to Marat not to Rudel, but to his colleagues ... so it’s not the only one who wrote his memoirs, I didn’t write that he did it in battle, but Rudel, there is such an opinion, just one of those ...
      1. Kostyan
        -3
        21 November 2011 23: 51
        just the winners write the story ... so of course he’s a burrow now ....
  8. boos24
    +4
    21 November 2011 13: 43
    ETERNAL MEMORY OF HEROES
    1. Lech e-mine
      +3
      21 November 2011 14: 44
      AND DEATH FRITZAM.
      1. boos24
        +2
        21 November 2011 14: 50
        thank God they are no longer (destroyed), but others have appeared with different slogans but with the same idea and they should be feared, take into account the mistakes of the past and arm themselves
      2. +5
        21 November 2011 15: 18
        Quote: Leha e-mine
        DEATH FRITZAM.


        And their current lackeys
        1. ZHORA
          -2
          21 November 2011 15: 25
          But their ideology is alive in Russia the most .. Russian march is an example ..
          1. strelok-07
            +2
            21 November 2011 16: 29
            So, as something begins, it will be necessary to devote part of the forces to internal cleansing. I do not like it when it stinks behind a creature.
            1. stalker
              +1
              21 November 2011 16: 36
              Do not pay attention to this eccentric, he is an "ideological Ukrainian" (Bandera in our opinion), if only Russia or the Soviets give a shit.
          2. +3
            21 November 2011 18: 57
            You confuse, the skin of the heads does not hit the Russians, but among the Nazis, the goal was to eradicate the Russian people. In Ukraine, yes, they venerate Bandera there sacredly, but they also erect monuments to them.
            1. -4
              21 November 2011 19: 40
              Mlyn Joker have you been to Ukraine !? do not speed! with the same layout in Russia, they revered Hittab and Umarov, but it remains to erect a monument!
  9. zavesa01
    0
    21 November 2011 15: 35
    From the memoirs of the same Pokryshkin it follows that at the beginning of the war the ram was considered heroism, and then the tribunal followed the ram. USSR bought planes in the USA for gold and such a waste was considered a crime

    I already wrote here that heroes pilots are not only our example Eric Hartman.
    Understand that politicians drive into wars, and people fight. By the way, the Wehrmacht at the Nuremberg process was acquitted.
  10. SVD
    SVD
    +4
    21 November 2011 16: 20
    Kostyan wrote:

    repeat what ???? throw fields with corpses ...... remember .. if they take on us .. we’ll end .... scatter like a house of cards, and units of fanatics will run around the forests with Kalash, the hunt for which from the Yankees and NATO will turn into an exciting sport ... we have nothing to oppose the west ....


    During the years of World War II, such reptiles as you served as fascists among the Nazis as police officers, betrayed your people, your homeland.
    Other reptiles like you were shot right away, like defeatists, deserters, and cowards. Ugh!
    1. Kostyan
      -6
      21 November 2011 18: 38
      I don’t understand. Why insult .... I’m not at all lousy and rotten Yankees I hate no less than you .. it’s just disgusting to read all this communist fuck ... about the history of the Second World War ... all lies and untruth ... so no country in the world could crap ... it’s necessary to come up with ... kaz..el Stalin lured Natsik to the Volga, so that they could ditch them .... such .... remember, we won miraculously ... and if it weren’t for Lend-Lease ... everything was amba ..... it’s not a big deal for the Urals ... we always fought badly ... as far as I remember the latest achievements under Suvorov ..... and everything else was dead and ... ... a word ....
      1. +3
        21 November 2011 19: 01
        You will be a little more accurate, the fact that there were a large number of dead, is this the fault of the people? Who is to blame that Stalin was such a slow-witted person and only in the 43 began to do something, look at the documentary film Hitler and Stalin, it’s called it, it was made jointly by our and American scientists, very informative.
        1. Kostyan
          -6
          21 November 2011 19: 34
          the guilt of the leadership ... and the generals in general ... the army was a gray mass ... the command staff was stupid and narrow-minded ... no organization, all stupid ... formations in the country were zero .. everyone was killed and intimidated by repressions .. etc . and all this rot was revealed by the Finnish War .. the country is midget Suomi, the land of the Chukhonets, filled the snout of a huge red cannibalistic monster, on feet of clay ..
          1. J_silver
            -1
            21 November 2011 22: 56
            Stop carrying crap - try reading and analyzing sources ...
            1. Kostyan
              -2
              21 November 2011 23: 53
              what sources ..... shit .. soviet ravings .....)))))) this is reading for suckers ..))))))
              1. andreypilot
                0
                23 November 2011 18: 18
                This is your lokhovskoe mood .. trash? nonprofessionals? not patriots? Learn how "pseudo-patriots" fight, you will be the first to yell, save you from violence, when the Georgians will have you in the ass with their humpbacked ones! Do the girls really love you?, troll and just a Pindos gasket with wings ... http: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb4aE59BsMs -that's who to look up to
                1. Kostyan
                  -1
                  23 November 2011 18: 57
                  Well, what is it here .... great guys, well done ... no one argues ....
        2. J_silver
          -2
          21 November 2011 22: 55
          It’s not surprising that you have not far gone from Kostyan ... This is not a film, this is a bastard ...
          1. Kostyan
            -2
            21 November 2011 23: 53
            and the movie is excellent by the way ......
  11. +2
    21 November 2011 16: 49
    The Russian Army is not defeated, in the air and on the earth !!! bully
  12. Filin
    +1
    21 November 2011 18: 34
    We had rams in the initial period of the war, then they began to occur less frequently and in hopeless situations.
    And when such an amount of adrenaline in the blood, during the battle, then a person begins to make lightning decisions ... without hesitation ...
    The Germans also have a lot of rams carried out, but mainly starting from the year 43, when the Allies launched massive raids on cities and factories in Germany.
    Mostly rammed by Lancaster and flying fortresses. This was widely reported in the press in order to raise patriotic feelings.
    1. Kostyan
      -4
      21 November 2011 19: 36
      Flin it's true ... they were called "rammyggers" .. and the ram was the last resort ... but yes, really ...
    2. Guns
      0
      22 November 2011 15: 06
      How many rams were made by the "ramming" squadron of fascists? how many wolves fought in the occupied territories?
  13. +1
    21 November 2011 19: 38
    In my opinion, only Russian and Japanese pilots tried by all means to harm the enemy. Even at the cost of their lives. Now it is easy to argue: I would save the car and show them in another battle. But in reality, during the battle, everything happens in a split second. Make a decision and execute it. inflicting damage on the enemy. As Gorky said, "We sing a song to the madness of the brave." But it is interesting that the Angles and amers rammed? Maybe someone knows, tell me.
  14. -2
    21 November 2011 20: 11
    good aerobatics reliable technique rally people and fuck these heroic rams are unnecessary. remember the words of the brigade commander Serpilin from the film, alive and dead, you have to fight so that your enemies die and you lived, that's what martial art is
    1. ballian
      -6
      21 November 2011 21: 20
      All these stories with "battering rams" and in such an amount (600) were written in the Soviet wartime when it was only encouraged to write any kind of lobuda for propaganda purposes (the same mythical "28 Panfilovites" were sorted out only after there was a serious reason to understand - (Panfilovets- policeman)., and there was no free press that could doubt it. And "battering rams" to organize on paper the simplest thing.
      .
      In general, I recalled from Pokryshkin’s memoirs read that at the end of the war, before his eyes, a Soviet and a German fighter flew into each other's foreheads - not a single one turned away - as a result, both planes and the pilot died.
  15. +3
    21 November 2011 23: 02
    The mind does not understand Russia, these are not my words, and also our soul and sense of our patriotism.
    And there are a great many examples of this in our history, and not necessarily in the air but also on the earth.
    And I am proud that I am a compatriot of those heroes who are capable of such acts as our pilots since the Great Patriotic War!
  16. Guns
    0
    22 November 2011 15: 02
    All these stories with "battering rams" and in such an amount (600) were written in the Soviet wartime when it was only encouraged to write any kind of lobuda for propaganda purposes (the same mythical "28 Panfilovites" were sorted out only after there was a serious reason to understand - (Panfilovets- policeman)., and there was no free press that could doubt it. And "battering rams" to organize on paper the simplest thing.
    ____________________
    ECA brain is fouled by Smeshariki and Mikkimaus. Yapov's Masoan heroism is undeniable, and the Russian people are propaganda
  17. Municipality
    +1
    22 November 2011 21: 32
    Kostyan Yesterday, 11:23 read "aces of the Luftwaffe" Mukhin about his Nazi heroes and about Rudel too
    1. Kostyan
      -1
      23 November 2011 01: 25
      the Nazis are not mine ... and they are not friends to me .... an ordinary bastard ... but they fought with dignity .... not a couple to us ....
  18. Municipality
    -1
    22 November 2011 21: 51
    as always our suckers are in shit
  19. rom
    rom
    +2
    22 November 2011 22: 01
    to Kostyan Yesterday, 23:46
    bought ... this is a fairy tale that drives the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation to justify the loss of sovkovgo weapons .... all this shit was torn apart in a matter of days .. a disgrace ... one r ..... and not a weapon .. you have to look the truth in eyes...
    Actually, the stubbornness of people like you is amazing. Do you write bought this lies? Remember how many times Basra in Iraq took times, d 9 only officially announced that they had come under control, and the next day we again heard about the assault. They agreed that they lied. they don’t give you money there, it’s not sickly. To notice all your super powers are simple Iraqis (as you called them monkeys there). And now remember the storm of Baghdad. They obviously sold it. I can’t give a link to the news portal, it was a long time ago, but your Yankees themselves recognized it bribery of the generals of Sadam. And about the stupid x goals we have, so just remember the operation in Georgia. Notice that your beloved Americans were armed and prepared them, and that in the end. So you yourself understand about schools so here they will give you a head start. And if you remember Chechnya, you fought there one school is Dudaev, Maskhadov is also a native of the Soviet school. And notice how the situation changed after they were destroyed (and scumbagging, just don’t be stupid about Basayev,). So don’t be stupid and think what you write. Do not disgrace.
    1. Kostyan
      -1
      23 November 2011 01: 34
      Well, they fought, so what ..... well, they didn’t go right away .. well, after a week ..... and the losses ?????? how much they put in a formidable against a handful of city dwellers with machine guns and grenade launchers .... and how many gre .. banged Yankees in Baghdad against the 5th Army in armament in the world .. ????? ahh ... ??? answer .. ??? !!! bought and good .... and right ... it’s better to buy than to storm ... Read Sun-Tzu ..... only we hit our forehead and get on our forehead .... what at Plevna, that in the Second World War that in '94 ... it’s very insulting and sad ... but this is our destiny .... better we would buy everything .. it would be much better .... but what about Georgia .. a small country with a boss crazy and a schizophrenic managed to shoot down 7 or 8 of our planes .. is that how ???? unbelievable ..... so if the conflict lasted for a month your aircraft would have lost everything .... and what do you say that I disgrace, ... I love Russia and respect .... you just have to be honest even to yourself and do not fool everyone ... but because in front of the Second World War ..... little blood on foreign territory. and how it turned out .. you need to know the errors in order to take them into account in the future ...
      1. Passing
        +1
        23 November 2011 17: 34
        the country of a small fry ... managed to bring down 7 or 8 of our planes ...

        For a change, try reading the chronology of the day, sorted by the day, on specialized sites. The losses of the aircraft were only in the first two days, then the Georgian air defense was suppressed by our electronic warfare systems, they began to use competent tactics, and in the future, not a single plane was shot down by the Georgians. So, neither in a hypothetical month of the war nor in a year of loss would there simply be no loss.
        A tale about 8-14-20 planes shot down by Georgians is a propaganda of the wounded pride of Georgians. In the best case, Georgians give out wishful thinking. For example, three of our attack aircraft were hit by missiles in the engine, but returned safely to the base (see photo on the Internet), I hope there is no need to explain the difference between a downed and crashed aircraft. Plus, there are rumors about several of our planes shot down by their own. But these are only rumors, and we are unlikely to hear official confirmation of this. In any case, we shot down our own by mistake or not, but exactly 4 pieces remain on the Georgian account at the very beginning of the war.
        1. Kostyan
          -1
          23 November 2011 17: 57
          here is a competent answer ... I respect .... it all can do so ... however I saw a wonderful picture on TV ..... our gabs are standing ... and rooks sweep over them .. a couple ... next two bullshit with needles ... and they don’t know what to do .. shoot or not .... or run away ... in short, as always, our interaction was lame, and that is to say the least ....
      2. +1
        23 November 2011 17: 45
        Quote: Kostyan
        and how many gre .. fucking Yankees in Baghdad against the 5th Army in armament in the world .. ?????

        Do you know how much? !!!!
        I think that even in the white house they’re afraid to give the exact number so that they don’t leak onto the street
        if the conflict lasted a month, finally aviation would have lost everything

        I sincerely hope that you have already quit the Army
        Quote: Kostyan
        I love Russia and respect
        this is only our debi .. you can throw a breast at the embrasure this is an example of your respect for those to whom you owe life
        1. Kostyan
          -1
          23 November 2011 18: 18
          Well, in the states you don’t really hide everything, the truth will leak out, so there’s no reason to lie to them ... quickly the government and the president tries .. this is not where we have tsarism so far .. only in a veiled form .... I’m in reserve ..... but about embrasures in the sense that they should not be closed with a breast but cleverly undermined .... there is no need to die a lot, but to complete the task and win and survive ... wow. ..and how kamikaze ....
          1. +1
            23 November 2011 21: 07
            Quote: Kostyan
            well, you don’t really hide everything in the states, the truth will leak out, so there’s no reason to lie to them ... quickly the government and the president tries ..

            are you naive or ?!
            Quote: Kostyan
            but about embrasures in the sense that they should not be closed with breasts but cleverly cleared .... there’s no need to die a lot

            how old are you, 18? !!
            Do you know why at one time the Ottoman shipwreckers stopped boarding the Russians, although their boarding crews terrified the fleet of the world, including the Limes ?!
            sometimes there are situations when it’s easier to die than to retreat and it’s very strange that I explain this to the border guard
            1. Kostyan
              -1
              23 November 2011 22: 00
              Volodya know what a feat is? it’s someone’s mistake at the headquarters ... like that ..... once again I say it’s not necessary to die, but to complete the task and stay alive ... and by the way it’s not to retreat ... it’s possible, sometimes it’s necessary to retreat. ... and then e ... banute ... Venter Cossack remember ....
              1. 0
                23 November 2011 22: 08
                Quote: Kostyan
                it’s not a retreat ... it’s possible to retreat, sometimes it’s necessary .... but

                and sometimes it’s impossible, your colleagues from the 12th Frontier Guard of the Moscow Border Detachment knew this well, 84 paratroopers of the 6th company of the 76th Pskov Guards Airborne Division knew this

                there can be anything in war, and retreat is a maneuver, although there is a difference between retreat and flight, but we are talking about retreat and in order for the division to retreat and regroup, it happens that someone has to stay and cover the retreat at the cost of their lives.
  20. Municipality
    +1
    22 November 2011 22: 04
    Kostyan Yesterday, 11:23 - are you talking about the millions of our compatriots who died? you after that !!! (to the administrator - I don’t want and I won’t choose the expressions for this bind)

    not enough word C ,,, KA

    censors - the word C ,,, KA literary
    1. Kostyan
      -1
      23 November 2011 01: 37
      how so ??? I don’t understand ... why are you appealing ??? I wrote about the fact that they drove to slaughter like cattle and mass .... that's all ... and the whole army was, more precisely, its head was just a bunch of du..rakov .. so here to be offended by the truth ......
  21. 0
    22 November 2011 23: 11
    There would be more articles like these, and not only on the Internet, otherwise such as bonefruit, beaver, etc. would be produced, they would have been planted on the bayonet at that time.
    1. Kostyan
      -1
      23 November 2011 01: 39
      I say again .. I love Russia myself, but I am against a lie .... if that goes so our children will not know the truth .. but what kind of story will it be if all the rotten lies ....
  22. Filin
    +2
    23 November 2011 04: 43
    Kostyan Today, 01:37
    how so ??? I don’t understand ... why are you appealing ??? I wrote about the fact that they drove to slaughter like cattle and mass .... that's all ... and the whole army was, more precisely, its head was just a bunch of du..rakov .. so here to be offended by the truth ......


    If you do not believe the encyclopedias about the Second World War, published in the USSR (which, in fact, I have little confidence in), then there is also a German detailed six-volume "GERMANY IN WORLD WAR II". It contains detailed data on the military losses of Germany and its allies and the USSR. And also data on prisoners of war, stolen to work, etc. and so on.
    Loss ratio 1 to 1.3 (Germany-USSR). All the other losses of the USSR are civilians hijacked to work, destroyed in punitive expeditions, died from diseases, natural decline in 5 years, losses in the newly acquired territories of the USSR (Poland, Moldova, Lithuania, Latvia, western Belarus, etc.) - all this counted toward a decline in the population of the USSR.
    If we count the losses of Germany with its allies + the loss of the civilian population of Germany and its satellites, then the number is approximately equal. Because there were also Holocausts on the territory of satellites, people died during the bombing of city factories, they died from diseases (which also counted down)
    Moreover, the USSR counted the entire population decline in the entire territory of the USSR.
    This included military losses, civilian casualties from bombing, starvation, disease, driven to work (many were later returned), emigration to the west of people collaborating with German troops (Vlasovites, policemen, ROA, etc. - about a million collaborating), partisans who many were considered missing and were never deleted from the list (hundreds of thousands of people.) Those remaining in the occupied territory (many were also counted as missing, but when the Soviet forces attacked, they were again mobilized into the troops.
    The loss of the Soviet Union recorded a population decline in the newly occupied territories that were already part of the USSR (15 republics in total)
    In general, the methodology for calculating losses .... this is a very difficult task.
    But what our and Western experts agree on is the ratio of losses as
    1 to 1.3 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    And no need to talk about overwhelming corpses.
    In the initial period, we leased territories and died in boilers ... But after 1943, count the number of boilers in which German, Romanian, Hungarian, etc. units were surrounded and see the speed of the Soviet offensive in Europe. The Germans also retreated ... blew up bridges , abandoned equipment, fled in a panic, fell into boilers, died in thousands in senseless counterattacks, put them all to the front in a row .... (children, old people unfit for service0
    Further, I consider the argument and discussion pointless, since I do not see any weighty arguments and arguments presented by you, other than empty demagogy ..
    Read literature, but not fiction. Read the new nine-volume book about the Second World War, published in the Russian Federation and the German Encyclopedia on the Second World War.
    Plus a huge amount of literature and research on this topic.
    Speer, Halder, Manstein, Zhukov are not serious scientific arguments. The information is presented too one-sided and it has to be checked several times.
    Good luck.
    Sincerely.
    1. Kostyan
      -1
      23 November 2011 12: 03
      Owl, thank you for not throwing mud and insulting. For one it is a huge respect .. !!!!! and on your subject and also for Vladimir Vasilenko I answer .....
      26. 548 thousand were killed by our fighters versus 2 million 608 thousand chances .... the ratio is 1 to 10.1 how do you get these numbers ... it’s easy to give the calculation for a long time ... but what is the statement, such is the refutation ... to prove the numbers I can....
      1. +2
        23 November 2011 16: 31
        Quote: Kostyan
        26. 548 thousand were killed by our fighters versus 2 million 608 thousand chances .... the ratio is 1 to 10.1 how do you get these numbers ... it’s easy to give the calculation for a long time ... but what is the statement, such is the refutation ... to prove the numbers I can....


        my friend where did you study? !!!
        you know neither history, nor mathematics, I’m even afraid to mention logic. I explain the last time for the gifted.
        what does the "Hans" have on the eastern front not only the Germans fought, maybe this is a revelation for you, of course, but you can't argue against history

        Irrevocable combat losses include those killed on the battlefield, who died from wounds during sanitary evacuation and in hospitals. These losses amounted to 6329, 6 thousand people. Of these, 5226 thousand were killed and died from wounds at the stages of sanitary evacuation, and 8 thousand people died from wounds in hospitals.

        Irretrievable losses also include those missing and captured. There were 3396, 4 thousand of them. In addition, in the first months of the war there were significant losses, the nature of which was not documented (information about them was collected subsequently, including from the German archives). They amounted to 1162, 6 thousand people.

        Non-return losses also include non-combat losses - those who died from illnesses in hospitals, those who died as a result of emergencies, who were shot according to the sentences of military tribunals. These losses amounted to 555 thousand people.

        The sum of all these losses during the war amounted to 11444, 1 thousand people. Of this number, 939 thousand servicemen were excluded, who were considered missing at the beginning of the war but recruited into the army on the territory liberated from occupation, as well as 7 thousand former servicemen who returned from captivity after the war ended — 1836 total thousand people.

        Thus, the actual number of irretrievable (demographic) losses of the USSR Armed Forces amounted to 8668, 4 thousand people.

        _________________________________

        The irretrievable human losses of the German armed forces on the eastern front are equal to 7181, 1 thousand military personnel, and together with allies ... - 8649, 3 thousand. "

        If we count according to the same method, that is, taking into account the prisoners, then "the irretrievable losses of the armed forces of the USSR ... exceed the losses of the enemy by 1 times."

        I am extremely surprised by the fact that at the military forum, in discussing the military topic, people who have no idea how the irrecoverable human losses of the armed forces differ from the general human losses of the country participating in the war, people who do not even know WHO AND WITH WHOM they fought in the eastern front (I'm talking about losses, as you say, "hans")

        if your knowledge of the technical characteristics of German technology is the same as your knowledge of the history of the Great Patriotic War, then ALL of your opuses on this branch can be easily wiped wink
        1. Kostyan
          -1
          23 November 2011 17: 30
          everything from here only carefully http://www.rus-sky.com/history/library/w/w091.htm#_Toc2489830
        2. ballian
          0
          23 November 2011 21: 46
          Dear, here you have copied past loss data from Krivosheev, presenting them as some kind of truth for some reason, but if the loss ratio is the loss of the Germans and their allies, this is a big question (if you didn’t know)
          1. 0
            23 November 2011 22: 00
            http://krieg.wallst.ru/frames-k/allarmy.html#2
            and what does Krivosheev not suit you for ?! can you refute them?
            http://demography.ru/xednay/demography/facts/4rotmistr/filimoshin_ww.html
  23. Armand
    0
    23 November 2011 11: 50
    Indeed, Nazi memoirs are a source of crystal clear data! My grandfather, a veteran of the Great Patriotic War, would have strangled Kostya with his own hands. Allies showed very well how they can fight in Dunkirk. And then the Germans gave up without a fight. And why did the ingenious German commanders break their teeth about our dumb ones so?
  24. Kostyan
    -1
    23 November 2011 12: 16
    Quote: Armand
    My grandfather, a WWII veteran, would have strangled Kostya with his own hands

    and why such hatred of Armand ??? I'm just telling the truth .. !!!! I do not insult anyone, but call a spade a spade ...
    Quote: Armand
    .Allies showed well how they can fight in Dunkirk. And then the Germans generally surrendered to them without a fight

    Dunkirk yes, it’s a disgrace, there are no questions .... and the phrase gave up without a fight is complete nonsense .. when you give up .. learn the story baby ... Normandy, Falez, Ruhr, Market Garden, Ardennes counterattack .... what kind of change without a fight ??? you are either mistaken or simply did not study history .....
    Quote: Armand
    And why did the ingenious German commanders break their teeth about our dumb ones so?

    I also explained this .... thanks to Lend-Lease deliveries that went on September 41st, with the monthly delivery of hundreds of tanks and planes that have a mustachioed h ... well, right there ... yo ... bye. ... dirt, frost, human resources and, most importantly, God ....
    1. andreypilot
      +1
      23 November 2011 16: 26
      You read and teach better about Dunkirk, Hitler did not push the Anglo-Saxons in the hope that they would give him time to deal with the USSR, it was his gesture, which was originally accepted by England .. Oh god, miracle, the Germans stopped .. Hitler wanted to deal with communism, which Churchill and Chamberlain wanted .. One division, having withdrawn from the tanks, could roll out the whole British army on the pancake on the coast — they weren’t given them, but they were told to let go .. England rested spit on Hitler (after sinking a number of ships) and joined the USSR ..) You are with your themes, gestures, theses and behaviors, the crap that the closest NATO branch has ruined .. And once again, be afraid to meet with me personally, I’ll clap ...
      1. Kostyan
        -2
        23 November 2011 17: 38
        ... read when Hitler signed the Barbaross plan and you’ll understand who, when and whom he planned to attack ..... and the Molotov personally tapped welcome telegrams to Hitler regarding the taking of the capitals of Europe ..... and ub .. the mustache ..leaving hysterically appealing to the accursed enemies of the Anglo-Saxons ... help, they kill ... and he himself planned shortly before that to demolish them from the face of the earth .... some irony in this is not it ??? .... well and about dunkirk maybe I agree ... but it’s not clear there either .. maybe Hitler believed Goering that he would flood everyone from the planes there .. and why not ??? he promised the same, but didn’t fulfill it .... to understand it all, read Hitler’s table talk .. everything describes his attitude to Johnny and his motives .... I don’t need to associate me with NATO, I’m not their fan, but I respect for strength and wisdom ... we would have to learn from them, otherwise we will storm the cities in the 21st century ....
    2. +1
      23 November 2011 16: 42
      Quote: Kostyan
      I'm just telling the truth .. !!!!

      you write nonsense, it’s not clear where they were picked up, the worst thing is that someone will almost consider them to be true.
      Quote: Kostyan
      learn the story baby ..

      it's funny to hear such phrases from a person who thinks that the Red Army fought on the eastern front with the "Hans"!
      Quote: Kostyan
      which mustachioed h ..mo

      .....
  25. Filin
    +1
    23 November 2011 15: 52
    Kostyan
    26. 548 thousand were killed by our fighters versus 2 million 608 thousand chances .... the ratio is 1 to 10.1 how do you get these numbers ... it’s easy to give the calculation for a long time ... but what is the statement, such is the refutation ... to prove the numbers I can....


    And you prove ...
    And even better. Prove me the figure of 2 million 608 thousand chances. Open the German Encyclopedia and see the total BATTLE LOSS + axis loss ...
    1. Kostyan
      -1
      23 November 2011 17: 03
      data taken from stat. research "Russia and the USSR in the wars of the twentieth century"
      http://www.rus-sky.com/history/library/w/w091.htm#_Toc2489830

      just be careful ...
      1. 0
        23 November 2011 17: 18
        you also read poorly
        by your link
        General Jodl after the war declared that the German army had lost a total of 12,4 million people., of which 2,5 million were killed, 3,4 million were missing and captured and 6,5 million were wounded, of which 12-15% did not return to duty
        and those two losses with a half a lemon are losses from January to Arpel 45 for the truth, for the sake of that, the figure is 2 thousand people, of which 072 thousand are irrevocable
        well before you write well at least analyze
        1. Kostyan
          -2
          23 November 2011 18: 02
          Volodya ... so what is the claim .. I wrote that 2.500 were killed .....
          1. +1
            23 November 2011 21: 10
            http://krieg.wallst.ru/frames-k/allarmy.html
            read develop
            1. Kostyan
              -1
              23 November 2011 22: 02
              I'm talking about Thomas, and you're talking about .....
    2. +1
      23 November 2011 17: 08
      you also ask him to give separately the losses of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS, from the "military" it will be surprised that these are different things
      1. Kostyan
        -1
        23 November 2011 18: 04
        Well, no longer need to humiliate ...
        1. +1
          23 November 2011 21: 10
          at you humiliated your grandfather or great-grandfather, I don’t know
          1. Kostyan
            -1
            23 November 2011 22: 02
            than .. the desire to know the truth .. ??
  26. OLESHA
    +1
    23 November 2011 20: 09
    You can disagree with Kostyan in many ways, but he is in many ways right. The heroism of our warriors is well-known, but, you see, it’s very bad when they, the heroes, are banally driven to slaughter ,,, to complete the task at all costs .. for the birthday ,,, to the solemn date ... or just to curry favor. And the price ... soldier's life, and if you give it .... so in the name, not for! Who and when did we feel sorry for the fighters? I myself didn’t want to remember about it myself once, but then, the dead were awarded posthumously, though not all, and the survivors were accused of cowardice. And the boys had 1/2 horn and a grenade for a farewell salute.
    And the fact that emanating emotions and pouring numbers is good, so there are still indifferent, albeit each with his own opinion ..
    For victory!
    1. 0
      23 November 2011 21: 09
      this is a completely different question
      the dispute arose that our victory was solely due to the fact that we were not able to fight, we simply filled up the German with corpses
    2. Kostyan
      +1
      23 November 2011 21: 35
      thanks OLESHA ... !!!!!
    3. andreypilot
      0
      23 November 2011 22: 02
      The final thesis sounds like this: we won, but ... But! The Germans fought beautifully, the best troops, and we ... And we people for slaughter, the generals of rams, except pulling up their pants can do nothing, the pilots shit, they only know how to shoot down rams, forgetting about the weapons, the tanks are not bad, but the tankers are also rams, if it weren’t for the crowd of Russian cattle, crushing the number of nemchur, we would not have won ... In this sense, his message sounds like nothing else ... I know about many bad situations, but when there was a fashion recently, some of the disadvantages that make up a small percentage of positive stick out and savor everything, sorry, go, as they say, to the trolls to visit, you will find an accomplice ..
      1. Kostyan
        -1
        23 November 2011 22: 12
        everything was so .....
        1. Vovanchyk
          -1
          24 November 2011 14: 50
          Well, not all, but a lot. OLESHA answered you, most accurately. The problem of the command staff of the Red Army is purely ideological and professional in nature. When unity of command was introduced and the role of liquid commissars was reduced, the army began to fight much better in general. The problem is that they were selected for leadership positions in the Red Army as well as throughout the USSR not according to their wisdom and professional skills, but according to the principles of personal or corporate devotion or servility. Now the problems are the same. And the gorfanpatriots are ready to lay down now a bunch of cannon fodder, i.e. us with you. But inappropriately, only to whine everything indiscriminately. Examples, both brilliant and worthless, a bunch of small. There is only one conclusion: a patriot must be trained, organized and equipped, and a professional must be a true patriot. Yes, and the enemy, it is better to overestimate than underestimate, choke in the blood.And the false patriots who speculate on the blood and heroism of our ancestors, it's time to shut up the mitten. I remember how in the spring of 2004 in Ukraine the East-West confrontation (Ukraine, of course), the Russians-Ukrainians were kindled. Then in Donbass, the Ukrainian patriots were called fascists, and Judas Kobzon sang: "Get up, a huge country ...". Divide and conquer, their principle ....
  27. zavesa01
    +1
    24 November 2011 17: 00
    Kostyan, about our mediocre command during the Second World War, I completely agree with you. Suffice it to recall the Kharkov offensive operation and the concentration of forces on the Crimean peninsula. You can also write legends about the defense of the Brest Fortress. Everywhere the defense of the CITADEL is described, but the citadel is NOT a fortress. The problem with water in a fortress standing on water is also a question. Zhukov, the commander, who is not most respected by me, rewrote his memoirs FOUR times. By the way, the nickname in the army "butcher" says a lot. According to one of his memoirs, he placed FOUR bqs on the ships of the Baltic Fleet, the sailors will understand me, and they won't put me in a 4 bq tank. From Paulus's diaries: "It is very easy to break up large Russian formations, but when it comes to the confrontation of battalions, the Russian companies show miracles. If the war drags on and the commanders of the companies begin to command divisions, we will lose the war." This was written in 41. His words preserved the prophecy to this day, the Terrible confirmation of this.
    But about Stalin, I strongly disagree with you. His readiness for war is undeniable. To have ALL Europe in allies is to be prepared. To withdraw Japan from the game against the USSR means to be ready, To create the MOST strong army at that time means to be ready BUT he is not a military leader but a GENIUS politician. Regarding his repressions, I can answer you the following.
    After the intervention, a huge amount of residency of foreign states remained on the territory of the USSR. The same huge number were the remaining White Guards and their sympathizers. After Lenin's death and Stalin came to power, a VERY strong opposition arose and that opposition was not like ours; his former comrades-in-arms fought for power with arms in hand, they were famous people and they had thousands of followers. Perhaps if Stalin had NOT carried out the purges, an armed struggle for power would have arisen in the country, especially since Lenin did not name his successor. Yes, on his part there were excesses "Dizziness with success" but he was aware of them. besides, he knew very well that Soviet Russia would not be allowed to live in peace and was extremely limited in time. Foreign intelligence worked just fine as an example of the export of Christie tanks from the United States, the purchase of aircraft engines from France. He did not hesitate to attract foreign engineers to the USSR. By the way, with regard to our Stalinist design bureaus, the whole world officially recognized that such a scientific breakthrough could happen ONLY in the USSR, and the point here is in psychology. Each outstanding scientist promotes only his own idea and criticizes the ideas of opponents, as a rule, he is the head of the KB. So for Stalin, they worked together, which excluded prolonged criticism of the opponent and forced to look for compromises. Remember when your "mustache" canceled the cards that were introduced with the humpback.
    And after the death of this man, only an overcoat and a tunic remained from his father's family. This is his expression: “I don’t change a soldier for a field marshal” It was his son who was shot by the Germans, and he COULD save him.
    The grandson of the Queen of Great Britain fought in Iraq, and where the sons of our party bosses fought. Because you are not throwing stones at that garden. Look at how officials in power live now.
    As for the one who fights better here is a controversial question, as I wrote earlier, each nation has its own heroes, each. They simply dispose of their people and their soldiers differently. When, after the war, Paulus was asked why he did not break through the encirclement, he replied that he could not afford to lose two-thirds of the army. "I could not look their mothers in the eyes" Our generals will get another more important. star and smartly report on the completed task. And cover up your mediocrity, for example, with weather conditions (eltigen)
    And there is no need to panic as Paulus said: "When the Russians learn to fight, we will lose the war."
    The whole history of our wars unfortunately boils down to the following:
    1- an army led by military leaders flees from the borders.
    2- Shoot those who fled.
    3- Women pick up forks, men axes.
    4-Yesterday's lieutenants come to the place of the shot generals.
    4-places of the company foreman and teacher
    5- after this, the enemy usually runs.

    To my great regret, this has always been the case.

    Out of ALL, only Brusilov stands out, and perhaps all.

    PS. The question of why Stalin did not accept the victory parade and May 9 was not celebrated until the reign of Brezhny is still open.

    P.PS. I suppose that a lot of people will be minus, I’m ready to argue my point of view.
    1. Kostyan
      -3
      24 November 2011 23: 07
      I read the veil with pleasure ..... excellent presentation, normal rhetoric, nice to listen to ... just a couple of questions ...
      Quote: zavesa01
      His readiness for war is undeniable

      preparedness for war with whom? .. against whom? against world capitalism with the Germans or against Germany .. against whom ???

      Quote: zavesa01
      To have ALL Europe in the allies

      who do you mean? it’s not clear .. because I said that we congratulated Germany on every capture of the next European capital ...
      Quote: zavesa01
      Withdraw Japan from the game against the USSR

      honestly I don’t understand his merits in this moment ...

      Quote: zavesa01
      Create the MOST strong army at that time

      forgive the Veil, but in my opinion to create the BIGGEST and strongest army, these are 2 different things .. you saw .. a colossus with feet of clay ...
      and I'm sorry, but I consider a mustachioed monster ... to put so many people ... to rot and kill .... I do not understand ...

      and all this bureaucratic scum .. here I agree with you completely and unconditionally .... there are no questions, absolutely ..... like you and we have .... we generally have tsarism ... and the receiver ready ....
      Yes, and about the heroes of Eltigen I agree .. there was generally .. so fail everything ....
      I don’t know about the parade, I read the version of the rezun, and that’s all and no assumptions ... maybe the pressure was high ...
      1. 0
        26 November 2011 09: 33
        For stupid !!

        Readiness for war is readiness for war. It is defined as a willingness to repel any external threats! If America was ready for a war in Iraq and was not ready to fight against Russia, they would say that it was not ready for a war.
        And to beat the Papuans is not war, but murder is cannibalism too!
        As for the allies, so in Europe they had current until the revolution and during the Warsaw Pact!
        About the biggest and strongest! the strongest is not the one with more optical sights or laptops per person. And the one in which more soldiers are willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the country!
        Literally I do not remember BUT !!!!
        At the risk of an American invasion, China said it was ready to lose 500 million people, and the American cattle put a jail on it and more came up !!!!!
        What you do not understand with a mustachioed is from not knowing our history !!! Learn !!
        1. Kostyan
          0
          26 November 2011 12: 31
          Quote: SergeySK
          Readiness for war is readiness for war

          originally ...))))
          Quote: SergeySK
          It is defined as a willingness to repel any external threats.

          then we were not ready ..
          Quote: SergeySK
          And to beat the Papuans is not war, but murder is cannibalism too!

          better than the Papuans than us ..
          Quote: SergeySK
          As for the allies, so in Europe they had current until the revolution and during the Warsaw Pact

          why is it red ... joh ... they didn’t get them ?? it speaks of diplomatic art ..
          Quote: SergeySK
          And the one in which more soldiers are willing to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the country!

          an anachronism for the times of Shipka ...
          Quote: SergeySK
          China said it was ready to lose 500 million
          people

          Krasnozhyo .. they’re the same everywhere ... the power of the cannibals ... the Yankees will kill a billion without tension if necessary ....

          Quote: SergeySK
          What you do not understand with a mustachioed is from not knowing our history !!! Learn !!

          Yes, everything has been clear with him for a long time ... bastard, coward, villain and cannibal ....
    2. J_silver
      +2
      24 November 2011 23: 19
      By the way, it is still not really known who wrote those Zhukov's memoirs that we know - so this is a slippery question, and about the "butcher" too ...
  28. valeriigr,
    +2
    26 November 2011 22: 35
    Two pilots in 73 and 81 made rams of violators of the state border of the USSR .. Mr. Eliseev from Vaziani and Mr. Kulyapin from Marneuli (both regiments were stationed in the Georgian SSR, symbolically) They did not have a single gram of doubt, they were PATRIOTS GREAT COUNTRY., Like their fathers during the Great Patriotic War .... It is difficult to understand modern youth, but Homeland, this is not a place where there are no taxes ....
  29. 0
    28 June 2017 08: 46
    Since when did Goering become Heinrich? He was baptized by Herman. And Henry is Himmler.