Military Review

Warriors Seimintsy and Turbintsy, or Bronze "chain" through Eurasia

91
Well, I don’t want many - not one or two, but many VO readers, to part with the military culture of Mycenaean Greece and the legendary Troy. However, in our country, there are almost more mysterious cultures of the Bronze Age in Russia than somewhere “there” in the East or the South. For example, we say “stone age”, “culture of the stone age”, but we only know about it that there all the tools of labor were stone. Then the “Bronze Age” began and all the tools were made of bronze? But what about the Eneolithic - "copper-stone age", intermediate between the technology of stone and bronze? But the Bronze Age itself is much more complicated than we used to imagine. This is a set of cultures that left behind, well, just a huge amount of various monuments. And do not think that all of them were only in ancient Egypt, Sumer, or in China, and only there were cast ancient bronze swords and daggers. On the territory of our East European Plain also existed the culture of the ancient metallurgists. And what about Siberia? After all, it is cold there ... But even there, among the pre-writing cultures of the Bronze Age, there are beautiful examples of ancient craftsmanship. They are there a lot of these cultures. But even among them, the Seimino-Turbinsky culture stands out among others in terms of the development of the metallurgy of northern Eurasia of the late Bronze Age, and, perhaps, is one of the most mysterious ...


Warriors Seimintsy and Turbintsy, or Bronze "chain" through Eurasia

The famous Borodino treasure.

Discovered this culture by chance. In 1912, an infantry regiment learned to dig trenches near the station of the Sejm gubernia in the Sejm. Found a lot of green objects and began to dig further, but at the same time the commander of the unit also reported where it was necessary and even superficially, described the findings, highlighting the presence of four groups of objects among the finds. And in the same year and the same method, but for 3000 km from this place, the famous Borodino treasure was found in Bessarabia, consisting of similar things. Then, in 50-s in Siberia, the Turbinsky burial ground and the burial ground on Shustovaya Hill were excavated, and the fifth monument of this culture was found near the village of Rostovka on the Irtysh tributary near Omsk.

In all cases, these were burial grounds, not villages, and very rich in relation to the grave goods. That is, the people of this culture did not spare their bronze products on their dead. Many burial grounds were destroyed, but in a strange way - the skulls and bones were broken, but their wealth was not touched!


Borodino treasure in the State Historical Museum in Moscow.

Given the lack of writing in both Seimino-Turbino and neighboring cultures, building a chronology of the existence of this culture is an important question with a rather vague answer. To determine the chronology of the Seimino-Turbino culture, three relative “binding lines” are used: the Balkan Mikenian, East Asian (Yin) and Caucasian ones. The most common are the first two of them. However, a comparative analysis of the products of the Balkan-Mycena and East-Asian binding lines gives significant differences in determining the time of the Seima-Turbino culture. Western binding gives the result of the order of the XVI century. BC er According to the East Asian data, the culture of the Seimins and the Turbins can be dated by much later terms - not earlier than 1300 BC. er and up to the 9th — 8th centuries. BC er This contradiction is resolved by the hypothesis that the appearance of the Seimino-turbine metallurgical culture in the Altai region was the impetus for the development of metallurgy in the East Asian region. In support of this assumption, there is the fact that such elements of Yin material culture as the use of race horses, war chariots, yoke, bronze weapons, sleeves and other products appeared without prototypes in China.

Consequently, on the basis of the Balkan-Mycenaan lines of bindings, it is possible to take the corresponding XVI-XV centuries as the time of the Seimino-Turbin culture. BC er And if the chronological boundaries of the culture of the Seimints and Turbins caused certain discussions, the geography of their distribution was determined quite accurately.


Map of the "bronze chain." Fig. A. Shepsa.

Restoration of the territory of residence of Seymin residents and Turbians was carried out according to the available archaeological data. The most eastern finds are found in small burial grounds and single burials of the Sayan-Altai region. The largest center in Western Siberia is confined to the basins of the middle Irtysh and Omi and is centered around the Rostovka burial ground. To the west of the Urals, Seima-Turbine metal products are concentrated in the Middle and Southern Kama Region, up to the Volga River, with individual items found up to the Sura basin. The most western major burial grounds are the Sejm and Reshny in the basin of the Lower Oka. Separate products were found down to the Baltic Sea in Finland and Estonia, as well as in Moldova (Borodino treasure). An important feature in the distribution of Seima-Turbian artifacts is their almost complete absence in the Ural Mountains, which looks rather strange, since the Urals at that time was a significant raw material base for metallurgy. Thus, the Seimino-Turbino culture was spread over the vast territory of Northern Eurasia, which means the fact of its significant influence on the neighboring cultures.


Ceramics of Seimino-Turbino culture from the Vladimir region. That's great rarity. But she is.

As mentioned above, the bulk of metal products is concentrated in burial grounds of various sizes. The largest of them are the Sejm, Turbino, Reshnoe, Rostovka and Satyga. Also, a large number of items are located in the proposed sanctuary in Kaninskaya cave. In large burial grounds and a sanctuary, 315 metal products and eight molds were found.


"Warrior and Horse" - the famous pommel knife. Burial ground Mid II millennium BC. er Omsk Irtysh. Western Siberia. Excavations V. I. Matyushchenko. MAES TSU.

The peculiarities of the Seimino-Turbino necropolis include the weak preservation of the remains of the buried. According to the assumption, based on the location of the bones of the dead, burials were deliberately defiled by representatives of other cultures for ritual purposes.
Of considerable interest is the sanctuary of the Kaninskaya cave in the Trinity-Pechersk district of the Komi Republic. A feature of this place is the presence of traces of the activity of two cultural horizons: Seimino-Turbino and medieval. In addition, single guns of the early Iron Age were found in the cave. An 41 damaged item made of Seimino-Turbino metal was found in the cave.

The second category of burials are small (up to four strictly fixed burials) burial grounds and single graves. They are unevenly scattered in the territory occupied by the Seimino-turbinians: there are more of them in the area of ​​large necropolises.

The morphological base is 442 metal products and 30 molds. There are also 39 items related to Seimino-Turbino bronze, but typologically different from other cultural monuments. First of all, these are impressive sized tips of prints up to 44 cm long! By their form, they resembled Zulu assegai, had a stiffener, and had a plug-shaped sleeve. The straight sides of the tip, extending from the tip, were carefully pointed, repulsed on the anvil and sharpened with abrasive. Some had a hook on the sleeve. A.I. Soloviev in his monograph “Weapons and Armor. Siberian armament: from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages ”(Novosibirsk, 2003) suggested that these spears had a short handle, and they could prick and chop like swords! In addition, they used decorated Celtic axes, daggers and curved knives. The handle was decorated with cast ornament, and the tops depicted figures of people and animals. All products are distinguished by a fairly high technological level. Also, many of them have various patterns and ornaments, which can also serve as one of the classification signs of the Seimino-turbine inventory.


Knives Seima-turbine type.

The tools, weapons and decorations of this culture differ, first of all, not only typologically, but also in their chemical composition. It is the uniqueness of the alloys used by the Seimino-turbines that caused such attention to them. The qualitative and quantitative composition of the 71% (331 product and 22 morphologically uncertain sample) of the Seimino-Turbian finds was determined by the method of spectral analysis at the Institute of Archeology of the USSR Academy of Sciences. Seven main chemical-metallurgical groups of Seimino-turbine metal were identified.
1. Metallurgical "pure" copper (C). All impurities are represented in small quantities, and their presence can be explained by natural causes or by adding bronze scrap to copper.
2. Arsenic copper or bronze (Cu + As). The main impurity is arsenic (from a few ppm to a few percent). Other impurities are due to the same causes as copper.
3. Arsenic-antimony bronze (Cu + As + Sb). The arsenic content is similar to the previous group, the amount of antimony is always less than the arsenic. Possible compositional deviations due to mixing of scrap of other alloys.
4. Copper-silver alloys or bilons (Cu + Ag). The amount of silver from whole fractions to tens of percent. Arsenic is often present.
5. Silver-copper alloys (Ag + Cu). The main component is silver. The rest is similar to the previous group.
6. Tin bronze (Cu + Sn). The amount of tin ranges from 1 to 10%. Lead, antimony, and other elements of unclear origin may also be present in the alloy.

It can be seen that the main feature of the Seimino-turbine bronzes was the use of arsenic as an alloying component. Arsenic as an alloying component improves the mechanical properties of copper, being a ligature, similar in action to tin. There are several hypotheses that substantiate the presence of arsenic in bronze seimintsy and turbinians. The most supported by the facts is the hypothesis about the natural origin of this admixture. This is due to the fact that in the Urals, where copper was mined by representatives of the Abashev culture, there are no tin deposits at all. But at the same time the content of arsenic is increased in local copper ores. Another confirmation of this hypothesis is the fact of a decrease in the relative number of tin bronzes in the western direction, as well as the fact that the nearest tin mines were located in the territory of Rudny Altai. However, natural reasons to explain the presence of such a large amount of arsenic in the products is very difficult. In the process of smelting copper, which contains arsenic, the latter always burns out, and its quantity decreases sharply. This means that it was added at the end of the melting process specifically (by increasing the melt flowability), immediately stirred and poured into the mold.

True, you can imagine what these people breathing with! There is, however, a hypothesis that the foundries were located on the tops of the hills, where the wind constantly blows and stayed with "leeward". But ... experience shows that it does not save from poisonous arsenic vapors. And who knows, maybe because of their specific metallurgy, they just all died (men), and the women "switched" to other tribes and dissolved among them.

So, according to the researchers, the chemical features of the Seimino-turbine metal are due, above all, to the inadequate resource base and creative kind of people of this culture!

As for other military equipment - and moving across the expanses of Eurasia from Altai to Moldova, they simply could not help but fight - then the Seimians and Turbins had armor from ... horny plates made of antlers of deer and elk, sewn on a leather base. The same were the leggings and bracers. It is interesting that, judging by the tops of the knives' handles (sculptural group from the Rostovka burial ground), the Seima-Turbian warriors moved on skis, holding on to the reins of a galloping horse! It can be assumed that the Andronovo culture prevailed to the south, in the steppes, the soldiers of which rode on chariots, while to the north, in the forests, moving in winter along the river beds, the Seimans and Turbins lived, but for some reason moved from east to west.
Well, in the end they left Siberia on the territory of Eastern, and perhaps Western Europe, and somewhere here were dissolved among the masses of ancient tribes!
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  1. ratfly
    ratfly 18 November 2015 06: 03 New
    +2
    How much we do not know. The look of these ancient artifacts is surprisingly technological. The more ancient the more skillful products are found all over the world. Yes there, some manufacturing standards are visible. The feeling that these are echoes of the collapsed more developed civilizations.
    1. Vend
      Vend 18 November 2015 09: 39 New
      +4
      Quote: ratfly
      How much we do not know. The look of these ancient artifacts is surprisingly technological. The more ancient the more skillful products are found all over the world. Yes there, some manufacturing standards are visible. The feeling that these are echoes of the collapsed more developed civilizations.

      How much they don't say. Basically, about such finds, scientific articles are published in "Questions of History", written in a dry scientific language. Nobody reads like historians. But there are more and more people like Suvorov-Rezun and others like him, who write in a language that is understandable and interesting for people.
    2. Down House
      Down House 18 November 2015 11: 51 New
      0
      Quote: ratfly
      The more ancient the more skillful products are found all over the world. Yes there, some manufacturing standards are visible. The feeling that these are echoes of the collapsed more developed civilizations.

      1. The older, the generally worse the culture and manufacturing technology - within the boundaries of the same culture is 100% true, unless of course you take the period of overt decline of culture.
      2. There are no standards there, there is no special accuracy - everything is "by eye" including the instruments - go to the museum yourself and see.
      3. What other advanced civilizations ?! Bones of "monkeys" are found - no one has found traces of "advanced civilizations"!
      1. ratfly
        ratfly 19 November 2015 10: 32 New
        0
        Broaden your horizons and analyze information. Too lazy to search and sprinkle links, especially if you are a humanitarian, then in general I am wasting my time. The information for consideration is the antikythera machinism of the ancient Greeks, Egypt (a separate big topic is the pyramids. Diorite vases, almost digital stone processing, multi-ton monoliths like?), The global megalith system, the technologies of pre-Incan and Domayan builders, etc. All this is lost knowledge, but they undoubtedly were. Who? Who was that? Monkey? A man can become a monkey; a monkey is hardly a man.
        1. Down House
          Down House 19 November 2015 11: 27 New
          +1
          Quote: ratfly
          Too lazy to search and pour links, especially if you are a humanitarian

          Quote: ratfly
          almost digital stone processing, multi-cell monoliths like?),

          And after that you accuse me of "humanratism" ?! laughing
          Broaden your horizons and analyze information - the pyramids undoubtedly make a magnificent impression - but from an engineering point of view, this is one of the most primitive forms of structures, made by primitive methods and primitive tools - a huge amount of work has been written on this subject HOW exactly did everyone!
          1. ratfly
            ratfly 19 November 2015 16: 10 New
            0
            Your statement about the pyramids' conciliation demonstrates your narrow-mindedness. The most ancient pyramids are the most perfect; the degradation of the later kingdoms can be traced through them. Historians, as a rule, do not have technical education and, accordingly, interpret the available artifacts as fantasy tells them. Hence the claims to humanitarian education. Well, "humanratism" is generally a test for your illiteracy in the humanitarian field.
            1. Down House
              Down House 19 November 2015 16: 31 New
              0
              Quote: ratfly
              Your statement about the reconciliation of the pyramids demonstrates your nearness.

              Rather, the fact that, unlike you, I understand construction and I know that the "pyramid" is one of the most primitive forms of construction that does not require engineering calculations.
              Quote: ratfly
              The most ancient pyramids are the most perfect

              Look less "tour trips" by Sklyarov and Co.
              Quote: ratfly
              Historians, as a rule, do not have a technical education and accordingly interpret existing artifacts as their imagination tells them. Hence the claim to a humitary education.

              From here and claim to your preparation.
              Although historians are humanitarians, they attract graduate engineers in "technical matters", be it radiocarbon analysis or construction technologies.
              Regarding your "almost digital stone processing", the blocks were trite to be split off from each other, and then polished against each other with the help of an abrasive, from here and such an accuracy of fitting, despite the fact that the blocks themselves are NOT EQUAL.
              And about your "multi-hundred-ton megaliths", the largest "megaliths" are in the Russian Federation, for example, the Alexander Column in St. Petersburg - you can google at your leisure how the Russian peasants dragged and lifted it without "cranes and lasers".
              1. ratfly
                ratfly 19 November 2015 18: 57 New
                +1
                Are you serious about abrasion and fit? To crawl against each other two heavy crap ?! So easily believe in this dubious explanation (one of dozens of dubious) and so stubbornly reject the existence of problems posed by the same Sklyarov and many other researchers. The difference is only in the official assessment.
                "Digital processing" is the first thing that comes to mind when you see the finishing of the camera of the kings, not the eclecticism of hand finishing, but a proven technology, nothing superfluous, as in the program. I can't imagine a guest worker with a chisel, and even a bronze one.
                Are you impressed by the Alexander Column? Which miraculously settled down and then themselves did not believe. In Egypt there are hundreds of them, there are much larger ones. And how much time do these columns separate? Well, at least you will not deny the degradation of building skills.
                Will the current buildings stand for millennia like these "primitive pyramids that do not require engineering calculations."
                1. Down House
                  Down House 19 November 2015 21: 06 New
                  0
                  Quote: ratfly
                  Are you serious about abrasion and fit?

                  Not me, but graduated civil engineers, who were invited to explain the construction technologies of such structures.
                  Quote: ratfly
                  the presence of problems posed by the same Sklyarov and many other researchers.

                  Sklyarov researcher ?! Are you seriously? ))))
                  Quote: ratfly
                  Well, at least you will not deny the degradation of building skills.

                  There is no "degradation" - there is manipulation of facts from the same Sklyarov.
                  "Both there and there" polygonal rubble masonry of varying degrees of preservation - masonry is the most primitive possible.
                  Quote: ratfly
                  Are you impressed by the Alexander Column?

                  It is strange that it does not impress you, because it is really more complicated and more skillful and more than Egyptian, and at the same time it was made at a practically similar level of construction technologies.
                  Quote: ratfly
                  "Digital processing" is the first thing that comes to mind when you see the finishing of the camera of the kings, not the eclecticism of hand finishing, but a proven technology,

                  Yeah, it’s just that the proven technology is polishing one stone with another.
                  Quote: ratfly
                  Will the current buildings stand for millennia like these "primitive pyramids that do not require engineering calculations."

                  Maybe for a start, let's compare the useful volume of spaces of the pyramids to the spent building material, in comparison with the same "Khrushchevs"?
                  To then more accurately talk about the primitivism of building technology fellow antiquities
                  1. ratfly
                    ratfly 20 November 2015 14: 18 New
                    0
                    Well, well, I can state - "I have not convinced of anything." Moreover, it is true in both directions.
    3. War and Peace
      War and Peace 18 November 2015 17: 06 New
      +1
      There are several hypotheses that justify the presence of arsenic in the bronze of Seymynts and Turbines. The most supported by the facts is the hypothesis of the natural origin of this impurity.


      General information The uniqueness of arsenic lies in the fact that it can be found everywhere - in rocks, minerals, water, soil, in animals and plants. It is even called the ubiquitous element. Arsenic is distributed over different geographical regions of the Earth due to the volatility of its compounds and their high solubility in water. If the region’s climate is humid, then the element is washed out of the ground and then carried away by groundwater. In surface waters and in the depths of rivers, from 3 μg / l to 10 μg / l of substance is contained, and in sea and ocean water it is much less, about 1 μg / l.

      Source: http://www.tiensmed.ru/news/myshyak1.html


      arsenic or arsenicum (lat), arsenic (gr) is a strong, powerful, common element in nature, occurs as compounds EVERYWHERE, in the form of compounds, when heated it gives a garlic smell and is very toxic. It has been observed since ancient times that arsenic improved the properties of copper; copper added to fluidity, hardness, and corrosion resistance. And this has been noticed by people for a long time, arsenic freeze-evaporation occurs at a lower temperature than copper, but even 0.5% of arsenic in copper leads to an improvement in copper properties. -
      this is already arsenic bronze.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  2. Koshak
    Koshak 18 November 2015 06: 25 New
    +4
    Thank you for the article! It is very interesting and pleasing that the ancient inhabitants of Siberia were not "savages", civilizations - not only those that fluently "pass" in school.
    1. Down House
      Down House 18 November 2015 11: 55 New
      +2
      Quote: Koshak
      It is very interesting and pleasing that the ancient inhabitants of Siberia were not "savages"

      And who are, then, according to your "savages" - according to your opinion they must eat raw meat and hunt with sticks ?!
      Quote: Koshak
      civilizations - not only those that fluently "pass" in school.

      Civilization is not only the processing of copper jewelry and tools, it is much more - for example, writing, religion, various social classes, the beginnings of law and science!
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 19 November 2015 21: 24 New
        0
        And who are then according to your "savages"


        At one time, the scientific terms "Wildness", "Barbarism" and "Civilization" were introduced into scientific use by Morgan.

        Savages are hunter-gatherers; they do not know pottery and weaving.
        Barbarians are cattle breeders, weaving and sculpting pots, but they do not have a state.
        Civilization - have a city and a king.

        The classification is disproved and rejected, but the terms remain in speech. Both savage and barbarian = uncultured man.

        PS - in detail, he could have lied.
        1. Down House
          Down House 19 November 2015 21: 31 New
          0
          Quote: Aljavad
          The classification is disproved and rejected, but the terms remain in speech.

          Then can at the same time tell us who and how rejected it and what is offered "in return"?
          And then in European countries as early as 50 years it is customary to reject everything, which even indirectly may hint at someone else's inequality smile
  3. Igor39
    Igor39 18 November 2015 06: 38 New
    +4
    So then we drove from Western Siberia to the west and south, this is not an episode, this is a trend))))
    1. kalibr
      18 November 2015 08: 03 New
      +3
      It is believed that the Seimians-Turbines come from Altai. Then we climbed "higher" (on the map). And only then they moved to the West. But ... yes, everyone went to the West: Aryans, Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Goths, Huns, Avars, Hungarians, Mongols ... it was smeared with honey!
      1. Igor39
        Igor39 18 November 2015 15: 28 New
        +2
        Hungarians are the descendants of the Huns, the name of the country even in Latin is spelled Hungary.
        1. Aljavad
          Aljavad 19 November 2015 21: 31 New
          +1
          Hungarians are the descendants of the Huns, the name of the country even in Latin is spelled Hungary


          Hungary - Ugra - Ugra. This is a self-name, in different ways. They were captured by the Hun movement, like the Sarmatians-Alans.

          But the name of Hungary is not related to the Huns.
          1. Igor39
            Igor39 20 November 2015 14: 13 New
            0
            The initial h- developed, probably under the influence of the ethnonym Hunni “Huns”. In the Middle Ages, Hungary was long called the Kingdom of the Huns, as it is mentioned in the novel “Song of the Nibelungs”.
            1. Aljavad
              Aljavad 21 November 2015 23: 26 New
              0
              The initial h- developed, probably under the influence of the ethnonym Hunni “Huns”.


              Humanité - Humanite
              Humor - Humor
              Hermitage-Hermitage

              Well, it's accepted there - "X" at the beginning ...

              In the Middle Ages, Hungary was long called the Kingdom of the Huns, as it is mentioned in the novel “Song of the Nibelungs”.


              The kingdom of Attila was in the same Pannonia, where Hungary later took shape. And the Huns were remembered in the Middle Ages, like the Scythians - by tradition. But "Huns" are not equal to "Hungarians". Both those and those are nomadic steppe inhabitants. But the Huns spoke one of the Altai languages, and the Hungarians - the Urals.
      2. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 19 November 2015 11: 05 New
        +3
        But ... yes, everyone went to the West: Aryans, Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians, Goths, Huns, Avars, Hungarians, Mongols ... there it is smeared with honey!
        Everything is difficult with arias. One of the main theories (so far theories and not proven facts) says that the ancestral home of the Aryans is the Steppes of the southern Urals and the adjacent territories to the Black Sea. And they came to Dravidian India from there. And to Iran ...
        And in Z. Europe. So for them it is more likely expansion in all directions attractive to them.
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 18 November 2015 07: 38 New
    +3
    A very interesting topic and article, special thanks for the posted photos .. This work however .. just hit the tops of the knives ..
    1. kalibr
      18 November 2015 07: 59 New
      +4
      The casting was carried out by the method of the lost form according to the wax model. But here is the interesting thing. Pouring bronze in this way is not a problem. But there is a figure of an idol cast from copper (!), And copper without a centrifuge flows poorly, it is viscous. But somehow cast!
      1. parusnik
        parusnik 18 November 2015 08: 13 New
        0
        Here's the question, how ?! Unfortunately, we know very little about casting and processing technology of that time ... So far, only guesses ...
        1. kalibr
          18 November 2015 08: 30 New
          +4
          There are plenty of amazing technologies, and again, aliens have nothing to do with it. We have a place of battle with the Mongols near Penza - Zolotarevka. There are a lot of artifacts. And now, among the arrowheads, they found a tip with a FORGED whistle! There is a hollow ball with 2 holes on the petiole behind the tip. And here's the question: it's not a problem to cast it from bronze. It's not a problem to forge it, and then put on a bone whistle. But how to forge a bean-sized iron ball on the stem of an arrow. If there is a stone ball inside from blows, it will crack. And if it doesn’t split, how can you extract it? But somehow they did it. He held it in his hands. Or ... silver kolts were found there. Crumpled. Fine silver! Our master found the technology, how they were knocked out and REPEATED their work !!! What did you fail? Solder the halves! Fine silver. Solder (silver) melts it! And "they" did it! Now he thinks how ...
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 18 November 2015 10: 40 New
            +1
            moreover, the aliens have nothing to do with smile ..Oh .. no, not the aliens, nor the great civilizations of the Atlanteans, the Tartarites .. smile I mean .. as many things of that era did not save time .. yes and the technology is the same ... I can assume that they were very simple and affordable .. As they say, everything ingenious is simple .. And time is a powerful thing, for stronger Faust, Goethe .. If you look at today's photos of Chernobyl .. only 30 years have passed .. and nature and time take their toll ..
          2. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 19 November 2015 11: 27 New
            +1
            Just do not solder there. It is necessary to make from one preparation. Moreover, silver is very plastic.
          3. Yorik
            Yorik 27 January 2017 16: 09 New
            0
            We figured out the forging of such tips. Everything is surprisingly simple and confirmed by finds. At first, the cavity of the whistle was forged, and then a cheren made in the form of a nail was inserted and all this was connected.
        2. Aljavad
          Aljavad 19 November 2015 21: 46 New
          0
          Unfortunately, we know very little about casting and processing technology of that time ...


          And not only "that time", even the technologies of the 19th century are already almost irreproducible. Even if the descriptions are preserved, the equipment, tools, SKILL are lost.
          Here, "Aurora". Well, they could not carry out not just repairs, but restoration. The riveted body technology has been lost.

          An engineer, like those who are crucifying here about liberal education (I have both), they usually know about old technologies that "this already sucks, now they are doing better."

          In the best case, they are familiar with the technology of the previous generation.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Aljavad
        Aljavad 19 November 2015 21: 35 New
        0
        and copper without a centrifuge flows poorly,


        Hot metal can be "driven" into a small form by covering it with wet felt. It works with gold for sure. Instead of a centrifuge. But I haven't tried copper.
  5. marline
    marline 18 November 2015 09: 00 New
    +3
    Thanks for the article, Vyacheslav Olegovich. I read about the culture of the Seiminz-Turbines, but now I looked at the photos of their products and, frankly, amazed: I feel the completeness of forms.
    Quote: kalibr
    ... there were found silver kolts. Crumpled. Fine silver! Our master found the technology, how they were knocked out and REPEATED their work !!! What did you fail? Solder the halves! Fine silver. Solder (silver) melts it! And "they" did it! Now he thinks how ...

    The ancestors were able to work with their hands!

    PS Now Riv will come and say that this is impossible, because his hands are crooked and his ancestors were the same ... although his ancestors may have been so ...
    1. parusnik
      parusnik 18 November 2015 10: 43 New
      +2
      PS Now Riv will come and say that this is impossible, because his hands are crooked and his ancestors were the same ... although his ancestors may have been so ...... Yeah, the "sectarians" will come running now .. and throw rotten tomatoes over everything .. smile
      1. Glot
        Glot 18 November 2015 15: 52 New
        +3
        Yeah, the "sectarians" will come running now .. and throw rotten tomatoes over everything ..


        They are still in schools yet. Now they will come, they will do their homework, and ... they will go to the network. laughing laughing laughing
  6. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk 18 November 2015 09: 14 New
    +1
    Exceptional stuff.
    Judging by working off the top of the spear, the rods of these same ones, judging by the skill of making knives (which anticipate the form of scimitars), the guys from the Sejm-Turbine culture were much more professional than the Crit-Mykene-Achaeans.
    At least I got the impression.
    .
    And now, brothers, a couple of buckets of tar.
    ".. It is interesting that, judging by the tops of the knife handles (a sculptural group from the Rostovka burial ground), the Seima-Turbino warriors moved on skis, holding on to the reins of a horse galloping in front! It can be assumed that the Andronovo culture dominated in the steppes, whose warriors rode on chariots, but to the north, in the forests, moving along the river beds in winter, the Seimians and Turbines lived exactly, but for some reason they moved from east to west.
    Well, in the end they left Siberia for the territory of Eastern, and maybe Western Europe and somewhere here they disappeared among the mass of ancient tribes! "
    ..
    1. Of the two flat cast compositions, I did not see any skis and horse races - but just the taming of the horse is quite visible.
    There is definitely skiing there, or am I skiing ... on the pavement.?
    2. In the steppes the Andronovo culture, and in the forests - seymintsy ..... but guys, you can’t ride a horse in the forest for skiing. In the forest-steppe zone, if only.
    And there’s nothing to make horses in the forest in winter.
    3. As for dissolution in the vastness of Western Europe - and if the last well-preserved burial grounds were found in Moldova, and then only individual objects - then it means that they disappeared in Moldova. Totally. No?
    .
    Thinking about something else. In the space from Moldova to the Irtysh there is a single technological culture!
    So, probably, there was a unified system of civilization, I won’t say anything about statehood - so as not to blame immediately for the delusionality and attempt to pass off the origin of Etruscan-Sanskrit.
    .
    And at the same time this one killed on the spot - "..In confirmation of this assumption, the fact is cited that such elements of Yin material culture as the use of race horses, war chariots, yokes, bronze weapons, bushings and other products appeared without prototypes in China. "
    And where is 2500 years of the history of China before .... ??? If they didn’t even know horses a thousand years later.
    1. marline
      marline 18 November 2015 10: 00 New
      +4
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      Exceptional stuff.
      Judging by working off the top of the spear, the rods of these same ones, judging by the skill of making knives (which anticipate the form of scimitars), the guys from the Sejm-Turbine culture were much more professional than the Crit-Mykene-Achaeans.
      At least I got the impression.

      Agree
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      And at the same time this one killed on the spot - "..In confirmation of this assumption, the fact is cited that such elements of Yin material culture as the use of race horses, war chariots, yokes, bronze weapons, bushings and other products appeared without prototypes in China. "
      And where is 2500 years of the history of China before .... ??? If they didn’t even know horses a thousand years later.

      But no ... The fact is that the Przewalski horse (Equus przewalskii) - well, it just cannot be the ancestor of a modern horse ... Moreover, the Przhevalsky horse has 66 pairs of chromosomes, and the domestic one has 64 chromosomes (although Equus przewalskii crosses with a domestic horse and produces prolific offspring).
      The ancestor of the modern horse is the steppe tarpan (Equus caballus gmelini), i.e., the European wild horse.
      If you look at the linguistics that some here love so much, we will see the following (from V.V. Ivanov and T.V. Gamkrelidze):
      In Celtic languages, “horse” is denoted as marc (Old Irish), march (Welsh), μαρχαν (Gallic), which names go back to the form * mark [h] o-. From Celtic this form was borrowed into Germanic languages: marrlmerr, horse / mare (Old Icelandic), marahlmariha, horse / mare (Old High German), mearh / miere, horse / mare (Old English). This horse name is common in many languages ​​of Eurasia: morin (Mongolian), murin (Manchu), mal (Korean), which tokens have the form * mor-. In Tibetan-Chinese languages, this ancestor was changed to * mran, whence the Chinese word ma, the ancient Burmese mran, the ancient Tibetan rman.
      In Russian - MERIN.
      True, further V.V. Ivanov and T.V. Gamkrelidze claim that it was the Celts who pushed into Europe from China.
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 18 November 2015 10: 41 New
        +2
        Hello, hello.
        With horses I understand - Komon, Losha, Alasha, and many more. Nags, for example.
        I meant something else.
        Is Yin material culture China?
        Well, as I understand it, but how else can you understand, maybe I'm dense just?
        So - the Yin culture uses bronze weapons, chariots with horses, respectively, yokes, bushings, drawbars, clamps, etc., etc. eyecups, henchmen, horseshoes ... damn, tired of listing - not having prototypes in China!
        That is, in the most ancient, civilizational culture, which is counted for 2500 years before R.Kh. - a rolling ball. there is no copper, no bronze, no complex technological cycles.
        So or not?
        .
        And where is the antiquity of China? If all this was brought to them by the Seimino-Turbines?
        1. marline
          marline 18 November 2015 11: 28 New
          0
          Quote: Bashibuzuk
          Hello, hello.

          Hey.
          Quote: Bashibuzuk
          So - the Yin culture uses bronze weapons, chariots with horses, respectively, yokes, bushings, drawbars, clamps, etc., etc. eyecups, henchmen, horseshoes ... damn, tired of listing - not having prototypes in China! If all this was brought to them by the Seimino-Turbines?

          Igor, the question is really interesting, and yet it seems that YES.
          Yin culture is primarily horses. Where did they come from? As already mentioned above - from the Black Sea steppes ... i.e. in fact, culture was introduced from the outside, it’s another matter that it changed a lot, naturally, subsequently.
          And this is what happens: as V.V. Ivanov and T.V. Gamkrelidze Celts (who have the word MERIN in the language) first domesticated the horse, then went to China, and then returned to Europe (and in Europe, they are really newcomers) ... I think it's stupid.
    2. kalibr
      18 November 2015 11: 04 New
      +4
      So, A.I. was engaged in cultural issues of Siberia. Soloviev, and in his monograph and ski is visible and there is a sketch - he is an expert in this. He believes that they were moving along the beds of frozen rivers. It’s clear that you can’t ski on a horse.
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      Thinking about something else. In the space from Moldova to the Irtysh there is a single technological culture!
      So, probably, there was a unified system of civilization, I won’t say anything about statehood - so as not to immediately be accused of delusionality and an attempt to pass off the origin of Etruscan-Sanskrit.

      Yes!!! And there’s nothing to be ashamed of your thoughts! This can be seen, as well as extensive trade links. And you didn’t come up with this! We have been talking about this for a long time!
      As for China - that is, the culture of the Indians ... seemingly did not have early prototypes. That is, the genesis of objects is not traced ...
      1. Down House
        Down House 18 November 2015 12: 17 New
        -1
        Quote: kalibr
        And there’s nothing to be ashamed of your thoughts! This can be seen, as well as extensive trade links. And you didn’t come up with this!

        Well, yes, they rode horses on frozen rivers, had apparently similar language, and not only fought, but also traded for example, and I don’t see anything surprising in this, as I don’t see any signs of civilization in it.
        1. marline
          marline 18 November 2015 12: 23 New
          +1
          Quote: Down House
          Well, yes, they rode horses on frozen rivers, had apparently similar language, and not only fought, but also traded for example, and I don’t see anything surprising in this, as I don’t see any signs of civilization in it.

          Do you understand how civilization differs from culture?
          Or as in the 19th century. everything is strictly linear with you - savagery, barbarism, civilization.
          So I will disappoint you, in the framework of modern science, it is incorrect in principle to talk about the stages of development of human communities.

          PS IMHO, the fact that they unearthed unequivocally is not enough to judge the presence or absence of a local civilization of the Seiminz-Turbinians, but there is Culture
          1. Down House
            Down House 18 November 2015 13: 11 New
            0
            Quote: merlin
            Or as in the 19th century. everything is strictly linear with you - savagery, barbarism, civilization.

            Well, in general, absolutely true!
            There is wildness, as in the forests of the Amazon with the complete absence of any culture.
            There is barbarism - as the presence of a material culture, and there is civilization as the development of a material culture and the emergence of an intangible culture.
            Quote: merlin
            obviously not enough to judge the presence or absence of a local civilization of the Seiminz-Turbinians, but there is Culture

            I don’t argue with this - but this is first of all the material culture of the Bronze Age, there is no reason to talk about any civilization, again there are no banal reasons for its appearance.
            1. marline
              marline 18 November 2015 13: 29 New
              +1
              Quote: Down House
              Quote: merlin
              Or as in the 19th century. everything is strictly linear with you - savagery, barbarism, civilization.

              Well, in general, absolutely true!

              This is the theory of the 19th century, which has long been recognized as untenable! According to this theory, for example, it turns out that the civilizations of Mesoamerica simply do not exist - they did not come out of the stage of "savagery", simply because they did not invent the wheel. laughing
              Quote: Down House
              I don’t argue with this - but this is first of all the material culture of the Bronze Age, there is no reason to talk about any civilization, again there are no banal reasons for its appearance.

              Again, it is customary to talk about local civilization, but it could well have been and the prerequisites are there - linguistic kinship, the kinship of culture and mentality - are perfectly traced. We do not know about religion (but it was also clearly present), the political and economic structure, in order to declare the existence of civilization.
              1. Down House
                Down House 18 November 2015 23: 20 New
                -1
                Quote: merlin
                This is a 19th century theory that has long been declared bankrupt!

                Who recognized?
                Quote: merlin
                According to this theory, for example, it turns out that the civilizations of Mesoamerica simply do not exist - they did not come out of the stage of "savagery", simply because they did not invent the wheel.

                I don't understand what kind of "theory" you are telling us about, but the civilizations of Mesoamerica show us how "one-sided and incompletely" civilizations that are closed to the outside world develop.
                Quote: merlin
                Again, it’s now customary to talk about local civilization

                Who accepted? ))))
                I'm talking about the fact that any society in its natural (not violent colonial) development goes from savagery to barbarism, from barbarism to civilization - these are somewhat "figurative" terms, I hope you will understand me.
                1. marline
                  marline 19 November 2015 09: 00 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Down House
                  Who recognized?

                  The scientific world.
                  Quote: Down House
                  I don't understand what kind of "theory" ...

                  We are talking about social evolution, in particular, the theory of social evolution of L. Morgan, if you do not know, although if so, then why argue?
                  Quote: Down House
                  Quote: merlin
                  Again, it’s now customary to talk about local civilization

                  Who accepted? ))))

                  The scientific community, you have not studied philosophy? Where did such questions come from?
                  Quote: Down House
                  I'm talking about the fact that any society in its natural (not violent colonial) development goes from savagery to barbarism, from barbarism to civilization - these are somewhat "figurative" terms, I hope you will understand me.

                  Everything is in exact accordance with L. Morgan, although you may have heard about it in the arrangement of F. Engels, but the trouble is: there are still criteria - which society should be considered wild, barbaric and civilized - in general, the theory is ethnocentric and does not work ...
                  1. Down House
                    Down House 19 November 2015 12: 08 New
                    0
                    Quote: merlin
                    We are talking about social evolution, in particular, the theory of social evolution of L. Morgan, if you do not know, although if so, then why argue?

                    Indeed, why argue!
                    If you are talking about ethnocentrism as a special case of social evolution, then yes, it is not only depraved but also trivially unscientific, as it refutes both the basic postulates of social evolution of both the general theory and the anthropic principle.
                    Quote: merlin
                    Have you not studied philosophy?

                    And you read less philosophy - this is not a science. Read normal scientists hi
                    Quote: merlin
                    in general, the theory is ethnocentric and does not work ...

                    It is not the theory itself that does not work, it is not scientific, and its particular case of ethnocentrism contradicts it.
                    It should be understood that the linear and time-dependent development of society does not follow from the basic postulates of the theory - but nevertheless, in any society, one can find "reporting points" on the basis of which one can judge the location of society on the "scale of absolute progress."
                    For example, the invention of a nuclear bomb and a banal ICE is physically impossible without the functioning of a higher education system in society.
                    1. marline
                      marline 19 November 2015 14: 03 New
                      0
                      Quote: Down House
                      If you are talking about ethnocentrism as a special case of social evolution, then yes, it is not only depraved but also trivially unscientific, as it refutes both the basic postulates of social evolution of both the general theory and the anthropic principle.

                      Well done! They still read about social evolution ... And now notice any terms like savagery and barbarism ...
                      A small digression - at present, there is no general theory of evolution; there are only certain areas, often contradicting each other.
                      Quote: Down House
                      And you read less philosophy - this is not a science. Read normal scientists hi

                      Youthful maximalism? Although many will agree with you, because for them philosophy is not a science, but a worldviewthat, as you know, the concept is much broader.
                      In general, are you familiar with Popper’s criteria?
                      Although maybe you are a historian and just for this reason you do not like philosophy?
                      Quote: Down House
                      It is not the theory itself that does not work, it is not scientific, and its particular case of ethnocentrism contradicts it.

                      We talked about the concrete theory of L. Morgan, and not about social evolution in general, in which there are many theories.
                      In general, to you a secret, sociology is not a science, from the point of view of science.
                      Quote: Down House
                      For example, the invention of a nuclear bomb and a banal ICE is physically impossible without the functioning of a higher education system in society.

                      That is, only the development of society does not necessarily have to be scientific and technical; even if it is scientific and technical, it can go on a completely different vector; even if it follows a vector familiar to us, it is not at all obliged to build the same social institutions and repeat our far from ideal social system.
                      How, in this case, are you going to determine the degree of "civilization" of society? You will simply take our society as a standard (as you have already done in the example with nuclear weapons and internal combustion engines), but this is “ethnocentrism”.
                      In general, pay attention in your post, you write that ethnocentrism is unacceptable; here, as an example, cite the material culture of our society - a classic example of mutually exclusive paragraphs. Meanwhile, philosophy teaches us to avoid such logical errors.
                      1. Down House
                        Down House 19 November 2015 15: 35 New
                        0
                        Quote: merlin
                        a general theory of evolution does not exist at the moment, there are only separate areas, often contradicting each other.

                        There can be no general theory here (and not only here) at all, there can only be general postulates and on the "basis" of their exact, but particular and concrete theories. But it seems to me that we are going into sophistry.
                        Quote: merlin
                        because for them philosophy is not a science, but a worldview, which, as you know, is a much broader concept.

                        That's exactly what I share "philosophy" as an abstract definition of the worldview in the form of an "extended" private scientific theory, as a rule, officially does not go beyond the competence of a scientist, from the remaining 95% of "philosophies" as empty balabolism.
                        Quote: merlin
                        In general, are you familiar with Popper’s criteria?

                        It is a sign that it is precisely by this criterion that philosophy, for the most part, is pseudoscience, in contrast to sociology itself.
                        Quote: merlin
                        We talked about the concrete theory of L. Morgan

                        On the whole, I completely agree with her, except perhaps for the postulate "on a single progressive path of human development" - it is very controversial and NOT SPECIFIC.
                        But here the question is only in a more precise definition of the "single path", the question is in choosing the correct "starting points".
                        Quote: merlin
                        That is, only the development of society does not necessarily have to be scientific and technical; even if it is scientific and technical, it can go on a completely different vector;

                        Exactly, the vector from the initial point can be different, but if we "draw circles" around the original point, then we get those "reference points" of which I speak.
                        The clearest example: a society does not have to necessarily be communist, or capitalist or anything else - but in any case, these societies will have an initial "starting point" in the form of the initial presence of "political parties".
                        And there are a lot of such "points".
                      2. afdjhbn67
                        afdjhbn67 19 November 2015 15: 41 New
                        +2
                        Quote: Down House
                        It is precisely that the vector from the starting point can be different

                        Guys, now I’ll wash my hands and put on the front door, I’ll write about someone's Hegel .. Feast of spirit .. nectar and ragweed, for the soul tormented by cries of cheers .. fellow 100500 + to both high sides .. laughing
                      3. marline
                        marline 19 November 2015 16: 19 New
                        0
                        Quote: afdjhbn67
                        Guys, now I’ll wash my hands and put on the front door, I’ll write about someone's Hegel .. Feast of spirit .. nectar and ragweed, for the soul tormented by cries of cheers .. fellow 100500 + to both high sides .. laughing

                        Thank you, myself in shock ...
                    2. marline
                      marline 19 November 2015 16: 13 New
                      0
                      Quote: Down House
                      There can be no general theory at all ...

                      Then that's all, as you write "idle talk."
                      We must come to unified, general laws, otherwise the "theory of the evolution of society" should be sent to the trash bin.
                      Quote: Down House
                      It is a sign that it is precisely by this criterion that philosophy, for the most part, is pseudoscience, in contrast to sociology itself.

                      Read the article by K. Popper himself "The Poverty of Historicism", he quite clearly indicates there that "the complete absence of predictability of social phenomena due to the inextricable connection between the course of history and the growth of human knowledge, the development of which is just as unpredictable" - unambiguously speak of the unscientific nature of sociology and stories.
                      Quote: Down House
                      Quote: merlin
                      We talked about the concrete theory of L. Morgan

                      In general, I completely agree with her ...

                      We will not spread our thoughts on the tree, I already understood this, even after your first post in this thread of discussion.
                      I’ll repeat it for the third time: It’s not about the initial points, it’s about the standard with which you compare and what stages of development of the society you highlight ...
                      Although how do you understand:
                      Quote: Down House
                      In general, I completely agree with her [L. Morgan's theory, approx. merlin], except perhaps for the postulate "about a single progressive path of human development" - it is very controversial and NOT SPECIFIC.

                      That is, you wrote - on the whole I agree, but "except for" the basic basis of the theory.
                      You can directly say: agree or not?

                      PS what you write about circles is generally more like "cultural relativism" - a theory that completely rejects evolution ...
                    3. Down House
                      Down House 19 November 2015 17: 30 New
                      -1
                      Quote: merlin
                      We must come to unified, general laws, otherwise the "theory of the evolution of society" should be sent to the trash bin.

                      We can only come to general principles and postulates.
                      The Theory of State and Law answers this as much as possible, as it does not have a single general theory as such, but I will explain the particulars in their symbiosis - I will explain.
                      The culture of the "Eskimos" will never follow the path traveled by the culture of the "Egyptians" - they have different external reasons for the formation of the state - the very anthropic principle in its historical interpretation.
                      But despite the different external and internal reasons for the formation and development of the state, the state itself is a consequence of the formation and development (regardless of the vector of development) of strictly obligatory institutions of society and the state, which may be different, but which must be - here comes the "organic theory of the state "based on the same anthropic principle.
                      Quote: merlin
                      Read the article by K. Popper himself "The Poverty of Historicism"

                      That is, in your opinion, is he right in everything that he wrote? smile
                      Quote: merlin
                      It's not about the initial points, it's about the standard with which you are comparing and what stages of the development of society you highlight

                      I do not think that the standard can be strictly defined, but there is to supplement the "triad" of savagery-barbarism-civilization with the fourth stage "world civilization", then the "standard" can be determined theoretically.
                      Quote: merlin
                      On the whole I agree, but "except" for the basic basis of the theory.

                      I agree from the standpoint of the "organic theory of the state" and the anthropic principle, but disagree with the principles of ethnocentrism.
                      Quote: merlin
                      what you write about circles is generally more like "cultural relativism"

                      In no case ))))
                    4. Aljavad
                      Aljavad 19 November 2015 22: 34 New
                      0
                      Then that's all, as you write "idle talk."
                      We must come to unified, general laws, otherwise the "theory of the evolution of society" should be sent to the trash bin.


                      "On the introduction of like-mindedness in Russia"

                      It is difficult to talk about the evolution of society in social terms lately. There is a technological evolution - from simple to complex.
                      And socially - everywhere and always this or that variant of the power of owners of production assets with a more or less developed bureaucracy.
                      The evolution of humanism in Europe has reached tolerance - is this progress? The evolution of social guarantees in Europe has reached the level of "the envy of the whole of Africa" ​​- is this progress? Or a harbinger of the collapse of a given society? Spiral? Or a loop?
                2. Aljavad
                  Aljavad 19 November 2015 22: 21 New
                  0
                  How, in this case, are you going to determine the degree of "civilization" of society?


                  He doesn’t wear pants - a savage.
                  Sitting on the floor is a barbarian.
                  He took the plug in his right hand - the savage.
                  Waltz does not know how to dance - a barbarian.
                  (quotes from my own grandmother who graduated from high school.)
              2. Aljavad
                Aljavad 19 November 2015 22: 16 New
                0
                And you read less philosophy - this is not a science.


                Yes. For an experiment on any of the philosophical questions is impossible. This is a SEPARATE way of humanity's knowledge of REALITY. Along with science, art, etc.
                And one does not replace the other.

                By the way, mathematics is not a science. For it studies not reality, not nature, given to us in sensations, but only itself, beloved. But the benefits of this are concrete.
                1. family tree
                  family tree 19 November 2015 22: 34 New
                  0
                  Quote: Aljavad
                  By the way, mathematics is not a science. For it studies not reality, not nature, given to us in sensations, but only itself, beloved.

                  Does this mean alchemy, astrology, as well as meteorology, science, is it? belay
                  He doesn’t wear pants - a savage.
                  Yes, man!
                  Scottish scientists have created a piglet using a similar technology cloning
                  The famous laboratory of the Scottish Roslin Institute, where the legendary sheep Dolly was cloned, announced a new scientific sensation - the birth of a pig (Porshenko what? )
                  The pig is the first animal to be created with the latest technology known as gene-editing, the BBC radio reported.
                  wassat
                  Aglitsky scientists sob behind the barn, cigar, in the mouth, does not hold, damn it recourse
                2. Aljavad
                  Aljavad 19 November 2015 23: 38 New
                  0
                  perepilka (7) SU Today, 22:34 PM ↑
                  Quote: Aljavad
                  By the way, mathematics is not a science. For it studies not reality, not nature, given to us in sensations, but only itself, beloved.
                  Does this mean alchemy, astrology, as well as meteorology, science, is it? belay
                  He doesn’t wear pants - a savage. Yes, man!


                  For astrology - I will not say anything.
                  Alchemy is a chain of attempts to obtain the Philosopher's Stone.
                  And an extensive campaign around this. As for self-promotion and raising funds for the continuation of experiments, and to conceal the results (positive? Negative?).

                  And about the pants - at my grandmother's (her kingdom of heaven). She really kept the Scots for savages on this formal basis.
                  And I respect the kilt. And it's not about clothes.
                  Another savage is more cultured than another Parisian. And nobler than another lord.
    3. Aljavad
      Aljavad 19 November 2015 22: 05 New
      +1
      with the complete absence of any culture.


      This does not happen. Any society carries its own culture. In the Amazon forests, culture is on a different plane than the Swedes.
  • Aljavad
    Aljavad 19 November 2015 21: 57 New
    0
    And where is 2500 years of the history of China before .... ??? If they didn’t even know horses a thousand years later.

    Around the same place where the history of the country of Yamato is many thousands of years old.

    Well, people remember their ancestors for many generations, well, they call the head of the ancestors "emperor". But this does not exclude the fact that this emperor was sitting barefoot on his skin in a thatched palace. And his mighty knights threatened the enemy with stone spears.

    China became the birthplace of technology much later.
  • tanit
    tanit 18 November 2015 09: 24 New
    0
    Have settlements been found? Or the burial place of the "civilian" population? As can be seen from the article - are only soldiers buried in the burial grounds found?
    1. kalibr
      18 November 2015 11: 07 New
      +3
      No settlements were found as such. Read more in the book by A.I. Soloviev’s WEAPON AND ARMOR. Siberian weapons: from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. Novosibirsk INFOLIO-press, 2003.
      1. marline
        marline 18 November 2015 11: 32 New
        +1
        You really need to see this book.
        1. tanit
          tanit 18 November 2015 17: 41 New
          0
          From this book, illustrations throughout the network have certainly been walking for several years.
          But it’s strange - only military graves, no settlements were found - but the version of the death from arsenic vapor is voiced even in this article belay
        2. Down House
          Down House 18 November 2015 23: 22 New
          0
          Quote: merlin
          You really need to see this book.

          It also became interesting, so many times a person mentioned it smile
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 19 November 2015 22: 48 New
        0
        Have settlements been found? Or the burial place of the "civilian" population? As can be seen from the article - are only soldiers buried in the burial grounds found?
        Reply Quote Report Abuse
        3
        AvatarColonel
        kalibr RU Yesterday, 11:07 ↑
        No settlements were found as such. Read more in the book by A.I. Soloviev’s WEAPON AND ARMOR. Siberian weapons: from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. Novosibirsk INFOLIO-press, 2003.


        Another interesting article was in the journal "Science and Technology". No. 5 (84) 2013 by Natalia Bespalova.
        There, this community is defined as wandering gunsmiths with an established supply of raw materials.
  • marinier
    marinier 18 November 2015 10: 04 New
    0
    Good time of the day!
    Ho4u acknowledgment, I didn’t know about this period of cultural development.
    of modern Russia. The author expresses his gratitude. He got through all the new lengths
    sebia.
    1. Bashibuzuk
      Bashibuzuk 18 November 2015 10: 50 New
      +1
      Anthony. Hey.
      You, from France, are excusable.
      We ourselves are here, dark, like .... pack-packs .... dense, in short.
      Some scraps only.
      Here was the Turkic Kaganate - it covered just these territories. which are discussed in the article.
      So he was later.
      On the basis of what did it arise? Could not appear from scratch.
      Here is prof. Okladnikov discovered there the Golden Empire of the Jurchen - sushi.
      Well .... read and remember - http://www.razlib.ru/istorija/drevnjaja_vedicheskaja_rus_osnova_sushego/p24.php

      And what really happened - there is a great mystery.
      ..
      Salut!
    2. kalibr
      18 November 2015 11: 09 New
      +1
      Read more in the book by A.I. Soloviev’s WEAPON AND ARMOR. Siberian weapons: from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages. Novosibirsk INFOLIO-press, 2003.
  • Dimas Tugarin
    Dimas Tugarin 18 November 2015 10: 55 New
    +1
    http://lubovbezusl.ru/publ/istorija/vladimir/r/37-1-0-1490 здесь оригинал статьи которую скопировали и отредактировали авторы.
  • but still
    but still 18 November 2015 10: 56 New
    0
    Therefore, based on Balkan Mycenaean binding lines as the time of the existence of the Sejm-Turbino culture can be adopted in the relevant XVI - XV centuries. BC e. And if the chronological boundaries of the culture of the Sejmians and Turbines caused certain discussions, then the geography of their distribution is determined quite accurately.

    good
  • Mangel olys
    Mangel olys 18 November 2015 11: 36 New
    0
    The ancient past of our people is rooted, as the famous Russian ethnologist and anthropologist V.P. Alekseev "into the endless distance of history." The way it is.
  • Val_y
    Val_y 18 November 2015 12: 47 New
    +1
    Quote: Mangel Olys
    The ancient past of our people is rooted, as the famous Russian ethnologist and anthropologist V.P. Alekseev "into the endless distance of history." The way it is.

    So the task of modern NORMAL historians and archaeologists of the Russian Federation is to delve into OUR history to carry out analyzes and the most important thing to filter from the nonsense and abominations imposed by Western historians of the Romanovs and other modern grant-eaters. And, unfortunately, there were a lot of them before (Miller, Bayer, Schletzer and others are now ... as well as patriotic ones (Lomonosov, for example, criticized Miller's just appeared thesis "On the origin of the name and the Russian people" or Tatishchev also in every possible way his works were inhibited ...)
    and how they led ... quote, - Miller, Bayer and Fischer led the gymnasium. In the gymnasium "THE TEACHERS DIDN'T KNOW RUSSIAN ... THE STUDENTS DIDN'T KNOW GERMAN. The following conclusion was drawn from this. It was stated that "the only way out is to dismiss students from Germany, since it would seem that it is still impossible to prepare them from Russians." Here's a "civilized", that is, a "western" approach to the Slavs stop
    1. Down House
      Down House 18 November 2015 13: 13 New
      -2
      Quote: Val_Y
      So the task of modern NORMAL historians and archaeologists of the Russian Federation to delve into OUR history

      You might think that they’re not doing it.
      And yes, there is no reason to believe that the culture from the article is OUR history.
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 19 November 2015 23: 42 New
        +2
        And yes, there is no reason to believe that the culture from the article is OUR history.


        The whole story is OUR.

        Count how many ancestors you personally had 3500 years ago. (and on the female line - too)
    2. Glot
      Glot 18 November 2015 13: 53 New
      +1
      So the task of modern NORMAL historians and archaeologists of the Russian Federation ...


      Can you name at least an approximate list of names of NORMAL historians and archaeologists of the Russian Federation?
      Well, to know who to trust is possible ...
      1. Down House
        Down House 18 November 2015 23: 27 New
        +1
        Quote: Glot
        Well, to know who to trust, you can

        The main thing is, do not read all sorts of Inglings and "alternatives" - and you will be happy - the main thing is more logic, otherwise what you read will often not fit hi
        1. Glot
          Glot 19 November 2015 06: 44 New
          0
          The main thing is, do not read all sorts of Inglings and "alternatives" - and you will be happy - the main thing is more logic, otherwise what you read will often not fit


          No, I know all this. smile
          I just wanted to clarify with a person whom he considers NORMAL.
          1. Down House
            Down House 19 November 2015 12: 16 New
            0
            Quote: Glot
            I just wanted to clarify with a person whom he considers NORMAL.

            Members of the scientific community fellow
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. Severomor
      Severomor 18 November 2015 16: 33 New
      0
      The most important thing is to filter out the nonsense and abominations imposed by Western historians of the Romanovs and other modern grant-eaters. And, unfortunately, there were a lot of them before (Miller, Bayer, Schletzer and others are now ... as well as patriotic ones (Lomonosov, for example, criticized Miller's just appeared thesis "On the origin of the name and the Russian people" or Tatishchev also in every possible way his works were inhibited ...)

      "For 117 years (more than a century!) In the Russian Academy of Sciences, from its foundation in 1724 to 1841, out of 34 academic historians there were only 3 (THREE !!!) Russian academicians. M.V. Lomonosov, Ya.O. Yartsov and N.G. Ustryalov ALL THE OTHER THIRTY ONE ACADEMICIANS WERE FOREIGNERS Thus, up to the middle of the 90th century, the share of foreign historians in the Russian Academy exceeded XNUMX% (NINY PERCENT!)
      It turns out that for more than a hundred years, foreigners completely controlled the entire process of writing Russian history. It was the foreigners who were uncontrollably deciding which old Russian documents should be destroyed, which ones to rewrite, which ones to keep, which ones to falsify. As we can see, Russian historians were rudely kicked out the door, completely removed from Russian archives and primary sources. "
      1. Glot
        Glot 18 November 2015 16: 44 New
        +2
        It was the foreigners who uncontrollably decided which old Russian documents should be destroyed, which ones to rewrite, which ones to keep, which ones to falsify. As we can see, domestic historians were roughly exposed at the door, completely removed from the domestic archives and primary sources.


        Words and no more.
        I would like to add specifics to such statements.
        Namely, at least the surnames that were destroyed, rewritten, falsified?
        And then these screams "foreigners wrote our history", etc., they are already bored.
        Yes, and plenty of documents, primary sources. And not only ours, Russians. Which actually confirm this or that.
        Generally ... No.
        1. War and Peace
          War and Peace 18 November 2015 17: 10 New
          -3
          Quote: Glot
          Words and no more.
          I would like to add specifics to such statements.


          even if you have ssy eyes, I have long laid out the lists of Russian academics starting from Peter, they are on the RAS website ...
          1. tanit
            tanit 18 November 2015 17: 46 New
            +2
            And you do not confuse the RAS and the "public organization" RANS with a bunch of "academicians" such as "Chudinov"? laughing
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 18 November 2015 17: 59 New
              -2
              Quote: tanit
              And you do not confuse the RAS and the "public organization" RANS with a bunch of "academicians" such as "Chudinov"? laughing


              yes type no ...
          2. Glot
            Glot 18 November 2015 19: 40 New
            -1
            even if you have ssy eyes, I have long laid out the lists of Russian academics starting from Peter, they are on the RAS website ...


            Oh, keep your enuresis to yourself. laughing
            As for the lists, I think you have not seen them.
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 18 November 2015 21: 47 New
              0
              Quote: Glot
              even if you have ssy eyes, I have long laid out the lists of Russian academics starting from Peter, they are on the RAS website ...


              Oh, keep your enuresis to yourself. laughing
              As for the lists, I think you have not seen them.

              http://isaran.ru/?q=ru/persostav&order=3

              in topic
              http://topwar.ru/84155-chto-stalo-prichinoy-gibeli-pervoy-evropeyskoy-civilizaci
              i.html # comment-id-5145569
              I just laid out this exile for you, but you are blind, deaf and stupid ...
              1. Glot
                Glot 18 November 2015 21: 58 New
                0
                I just laid out this exile for you, but you are blind, deaf and stupid ...


                "This link" laughing I do not need to spread.
                You in "this link" forget in the search engine of the ACADEMICS OF THE RAS 19-20 CENTURIES and look at the "link" what surnames there are, all over the list that pops up. laughing
                1. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 18 November 2015 22: 44 New
                  0
                  Quote: Glot
                  I just laid out this exile for you, but you are blind, deaf and stupid ...


                  "This link" laughing I do not need to spread.
                  You in "this link" forget in the search engine of the ACADEMICS OF THE RAS 19-20 CENTURIES and look at the "link" what surnames there are, all over the list that pops up. laughing


                  Already completely turned on the fool? what is wrong throat again? again you do not see the academicians 17-18-19v? what else do you need?
                  1. Glot
                    Glot 19 November 2015 06: 36 New
                    0
                    what else do you need?


                    Is it necessary? Ideally, that you wouldn’t crap around network space with your nonsense.
                    And so, I already told you everything above. And more than once.
                  2. Aljavad
                    Aljavad 19 November 2015 22: 57 New
                    0
                    and finally turned on the fool? what is wrong throat again? again you do not see the academicians 17-18-19v? what else do you need?


                    Already in the 17th ?????

                    Maybe in the 15th ?????

                    The St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences is the name adopted in literature for the highest scientific institution of the Russian Empire in 1724-1917 [1]. It was founded on January 28 (February 8), 1724 in St. Petersburg by decree of Emperor Peter I [

                    Or there was no Academy, but academicians already ????
                    1. War and Peace
                      War and Peace 20 November 2015 08: 34 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Aljavad
                      and finally turned on the fool? what is wrong throat again? again you do not see the academicians 17-18-19v? what else do you need?


                      Already in the 17th ?????

                      Maybe in the 15th ?????

                      The St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences is the name adopted in literature for the highest scientific institution of the Russian Empire in 1724-1917 [1]. It was founded on January 28 (February 8), 1724 in St. Petersburg by decree of Emperor Peter I [

                      Or there was no Academy, but academicians already ????


                      another blind, deaf and dumb? and a link to the RAS website, what to look at in the bastard, before arranging the scene?
            2. The comment was deleted.
        2. War and Peace
          War and Peace 18 November 2015 17: 20 New
          0
          Quote: Glot
          Namely, at least the surnames that were destroyed, rewritten, falsified?


          Lomonosov's "Ancient Russian History" was investigated by the method of INVARIANT ANALYSIS and it was proved that this work did not belong to the number of Lomonosov's works, it was simply a fake ...
          1. Glot
            Glot 18 November 2015 19: 44 New
            0
            Lomonosov's "Ancient Russian History" was investigated by the method of INVARIANT ANALYSIS and it was proved that this work did not belong to the number of Lomonosov's works, it was simply a fake ...


            Yes ?
            And you can find out:
            - Who did the research?
            - Where was it held and how?
            - Under whose patronage or on whose initiative?
            - Where can I get acquainted with the materials of this study?

            Yes, if this work was carried out in the "laboratory of Fomenko and Co" or the like, then you can not continue further.
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 18 November 2015 21: 55 New
              0
              Quote: Glot
              Lomonosov's "Ancient Russian History" was investigated by the method of INVARIANT ANALYSIS and it was proved that this work did not belong to the number of Lomonosov's works, it was simply a fake ...


              Yes ?
              And you can find out:
              - Who did the research?
              - Where was it held and how?
              - Under whose patronage or on whose initiative?
              - Where can I get acquainted with the materials of this study?

              Yes, if this work was carried out in the "laboratory of Fomenko and Co" or the like, then you can not continue further.


              do you think that your accomplices in the shop will attend to finding the truth someday? your traditional history, makes excavations not in order to build on them, but in order to build into this delusional picture of the world with the "ancient" Romans and their "progressive" descendants, the modern West and barbarian Russia. Naturally, the discovery of the method of invariants of texts was made not by zaliznyak or Yanin, but by the parents of Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko and tested on QUIET DON SHOLOKHOV ...
              1. Glot
                Glot 18 November 2015 22: 00 New
                -1
                do you think that your accomplices in the shop will attend to finding the truth someday? your traditional history, makes excavations not in order to build on them, but in order to build into this delusional picture of the world with the "ancient" Romans and their "progressive" descendants, the modern West and barbarian Russia. Naturally, the discovery of the method of invariants of texts was made not by zaliznyak or Yanin, but by the parents of Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko and tested on QUIET DON SHOLOKHOV ...


                I asked SIMPLE QUESTIONS, and not one received a CLEAR ANSWER.
                Which is generally expected. So, as they said in one wonderful movie:
                - Chill out Vasya ... laughing
                1. marline
                  marline 18 November 2015 22: 05 New
                  -2
                  Glot, of course, I understand everything ... but you are not tired of reading this stream of consciousness from topic to topic ???
                  He still won’t write anything new, and don’t wait ...
                  1. Glot
                    Glot 19 November 2015 06: 32 New
                    -2
                    Glot, of course, I understand everything ... but you are not tired of reading this stream of consciousness from topic to topic ???
                    He still won’t write anything new, and don’t wait ...


                    Yes, I agree, and I understand that the case here is already clinical, but the fools have to be hit on the nose from time to time, so that they don't block everything around with their foolishness.
                    And so, every time I tell myself, they say you don’t pay attention to the fools, let them put up their business to show, but I can’t always ignore them. smile
                    With the same representative of the ATFiKo sect, the case is absolutely critical. You see a person has zero knowledge but is trying to prove something, although he cannot prove anything. Does not answer questions, merging in a fog of loud but empty phrases. In general, the shiz is complete.
                    1. marline
                      marline 19 November 2015 09: 04 New
                      0
                      Quote: Glot
                      He does not answer questions, merging in a fog of loud but empty phrases. In general, the schiz is complete.

                      It’s just that you ask such questions that there are no atvetoff in his training manual laughing
                2. War and Peace
                  War and Peace 18 November 2015 22: 52 New
                  -4
                  Quote: Glot
                  do you think that your accomplices in the shop will attend to finding the truth someday? your traditional history, makes excavations not in order to build on them, but in order to build into this delusional picture of the world with the "ancient" Romans and their "progressive" descendants, the modern West and barbarian Russia. Naturally, the discovery of the method of invariants of texts was made not by zaliznyak or Yanin, but by the parents of Anatoly Timofeevich Fomenko and tested on QUIET DON SHOLOKHOV ...


                  I asked SIMPLE QUESTIONS, and not one received a CLEAR ANSWER.
                  Which is generally expected. So, as they said in one wonderful movie:
                  - Chill out Vasya ... laughing


                  I will find a link to this method and bump you in - don’t hesitate ...
                  1. Glot
                    Glot 19 November 2015 06: 42 New
                    -2
                    I will find a link to this method and bump you in - don’t hesitate ...


                    Well, that means you don’t understand what you are writing about. smile
                    They wrote to you in a stupid little book that they say such a method was established that something and so that. You read and bought. And what is there and how you did not even understand. Therefore, again, and sat in a puddle.
                    Once again, the last one for you to repeat.
                    I do not need a reference to this method, I need information:

                    - Who did the research?
                    - Where was it held and how?
                    - Under whose patronage or on whose initiative?
                    - Where can I get acquainted with the materials of this study?

                    Although you have already written above who and where conducted this "research". But I already told you that the "research" of fomenkoids is not taken into account, so you can no longer work in search. Charlatan "works" have neither weight, nor power, nor truth and recognition in science.
                    I will say it again:
                    - Chill out Vasya. (with) laughing
                    1. War and Peace
                      War and Peace 20 November 2015 09: 40 New
                      0
                      Quote: Glot
                      Although you have already written above who and where conducted this "research". But I already told you that the "research" of fomenkoids is not taken into account, so you can no longer work in search. Charlatan "works" have neither weight, nor power, nor truth and recognition in science.


                      I am making a selection not for you, with you everything is clear for a long time already no arguments from the outside enter the atrophied mind, there is only one idea in the inflamed brain - "no new ideas."
                      So, I have already said that the discovery of the method of statistical word processing by the so-called INVARIANT belongs to the parents of A.T. Fomenko Valentina Polikarpovna Fomenko and Timofei Grigoryevich Fomenko in 1974-1981.
                      The method consists in the following - it takes a sample of text — a few thousand words and counts the number of OFFICIAL WORDS — UNIONS, because it is unions that are the UNKNOWLEDGE BASE — its part, the personal style of each literary author and does not depend on the mood of the author and the time of writing the work i.e. the author unconsciously uses ALWAYS PERSONAL (his own) NUMBER OF UNIONS in the work.

                      Fomenko Anatoly. Book: Methods of statistical analysis of historical texts (part 2).
                      http://www.libtxt.ru/chitat/fomenko_anatoliy/27258-metodi_statisticheskogo_anali



                      za_istoricheskih_tekstov_chast_2 / 98.html
                      1. Glot
                        Glot 20 November 2015 14: 06 New
                        -1
                        I do not make collections for you


                        Then why answer me? laughing

                        However, as I said, the "laboratory of discoveries" is known:

                        Fomenko Anatoly. Book: Methods of statistical analysis of historical texts (part 2).


                        laughing laughing laughing
                        Nothing new, all the same, and the same ...
                        I thought you would call at least a couple of new names. And then ... Okay. Chill out Vasya ... laughing
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                  2. Aljavad
                    Aljavad 19 November 2015 23: 03 New
                    0
                    And why are there no links to Ernst Muldashev ??????

                    He also reveals the hidden. Or is it another sect?
                    1. Glot
                      Glot 20 November 2015 14: 08 New
                      -1
                      He also reveals the hidden. Or is it another sect?


                      Yes, there is something else. I personally had conversations with the aliens there. To the Fomenkoids. They have not yet agreed. laughing
                      1. Aljavad
                        Aljavad 20 November 2015 22: 52 New
                        -1
                        And why are there no links to Ernst Muldashev ??????

                        He also reveals the hidden. Or is it another sect?
                        Reply Quote Report Abuse
                        0
                        General Major Avatar
                        Glot (1) SU Today, 14:08 PM ↑ New
                        He also reveals the hidden. Or is it another sect?

                        Yes, there is something else. I personally had conversations with the aliens there. To the Fomenkoids. They have not yet agreed. laughing


                        Ahhh ... clear. Fomenko has not yet reached the desired degree ...
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    5. Mangel olys
      Mangel olys 18 November 2015 20: 32 New
      +1
      The MOST important thing is to filter out the stupidities and filthy things imposed by Western historians the Romanovs and other modern grant-eaters.

      Totally agree with you.
  • Glot
    Glot 18 November 2015 13: 54 New
    +1
    Article plus. I learned a lot for myself.
  • GAF
    GAF 18 November 2015 14: 57 New
    0
    Question to the authors. You wrote: "And who knows, maybe due to their specific metallurgy, they just all died (men), and women" moved "to other tribes and disappeared among them." If there are no men left within one generation, there is no question. If men disappeared over a long period, where did the women of this tribe come from?
    1. kalibr
      18 November 2015 18: 07 New
      +1
      Well, of course, if the swimming trunks were carried out intensively, then in some group - bang and all the men died, breathing in arsenides. There are women and children left!
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 20 November 2015 23: 11 New
        -1
        kalibr RU November 18, 2015 18:07 ↑
        Well, of course, if the swimming trunks were carried out intensively, then in some group - bang and all the men died, breathing in arsenides. There are women and children left!


        But the bones - albeit crushed - were not tested for increased arsenic content?
  • marline
    marline 18 November 2015 15: 40 New
    0
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, I saw the ceramics in your photo, it seemed that it was familiar, and in fact, here, you’ll agree, it seems:
    1. Glot
      Glot 18 November 2015 15: 55 New
      0
      Not at all such pots. And the finish, the neck, a little bit wrong.
      1. marline
        marline 18 November 2015 16: 15 New
        0
        I did not claim to be identical ... similar
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • exalex2
    exalex2 18 November 2015 17: 32 New
    0
    The "ancient" semi-wild ones managed to carve drawings in stone with a copper or bronze instrument. They cut out blocks with gigantic dimensions with an accuracy of zero millimeters of deviation. Have you tried it yourself? This does not happen .. It is still unknown who was "dumber"
    1. tanit
      tanit 18 November 2015 17: 54 New
      +1
      Yes, a simple stone ax is already a problem for manufacturing - well, most "experts about everything" cannot make it. However, how laughing and find flint.
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 19 November 2015 23: 14 New
        -1
        However, how to laugh and find flint.


        Quite by accident I had a chance to listen to a lecture at the State Historical Museum that a picture emerges: even in the Paleolithic, an "international" division of labor took shape. One group of people professionally mined flint (in the press they persistently write "silicon", "silicon tip") at the deposit, another group of people professionally carried out the initial processing (in a separate settlement) and so on. Then thin flat flakes-blanks dispersed across Eurasia, from which the final product was made on the spot.

        I was very surprised. And then calmed down. People were no more stupid than us.
    2. Down House
      Down House 18 November 2015 23: 31 New
      -2
      Quote: exalex2
      carve drawings in stone with a copper or bronze instrument ..

      Discord fellow
      Quote: exalex2
      Lumps were cut down with gigantic dimensions to an accuracy of zero millimeters of deviation.

      They did not cut it down, but "chipped it off" - and not with such precision as you write.
  • 31rus
    31rus 18 November 2015 18: 44 New
    0
    Dear, you personally have completely confused me, not only "break the whole picture", my idea, write an article only in more detail and in order
  • kumaxa
    kumaxa 19 November 2015 04: 39 New
    +1
    Well, finally, the authors reached us! Looks like they remembered that our ancestors were not made with a finger, and culture will be richer than some!
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 19 November 2015 07: 25 New
    +1
    I read the article with pleasure. I regret that I did not have time yesterday.
    I’m embarrassed to ask: so who were they, these Siberian Our Predecessors --- Caucasoids or Mongoloids? This question is really of great importance. Let's look at the anthropological map of North Amer. In the 35th century and in the 000th century, there is a huge difference ! Or, for example, Europe XNUMX years ago was mainly ... Neanderthal! And after --- Europeoid! Dear Authors, what do you think about this?
  • but still
    but still 19 November 2015 10: 48 New
    +1
    Varna - Bulgaria - the place where the oldest processed gold in the world is found.


    http://portal-bg1.ning.com/profile/DrevnataKulturaVarna
    1. atalef
      atalef 19 November 2015 10: 56 New
      -1
      Quote: but still
      Varna - Bulgaria - the place where the oldest processed gold in the world is found.


      http://portal-bg1.ning.com/profile/DrevnataKulturaVarna

      And what is it in his pelvic area? Golden condom?
      1. but still
        but still 19 November 2015 11: 27 New
        0
        laughing Most likely not a condom, judging by the fact that culturally and genetically left their traces in many ancient civilizations
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 19 November 2015 23: 21 New
        0
        Golden condom


        It is called - a fallocrypt!
        1. but still
          but still 20 November 2015 12: 52 New
          0
          Yes, but why is there a hole (look in the film close-up)? So not a condom, i.e. did not prevent fluid from flowing out. Maybe an ancient tread? But why? Maybe to collect the fluid? Or maybe an ancient vibrator? Or maybe to protect against contact during intercourse?
    2. Aljavad
      Aljavad 19 November 2015 23: 20 New
      +1
      Varna - Bulgaria - the place where the oldest processed gold in the world is found.


      Plovdiv is the oldest city in Europe. 9000 years without a break in one place.
      1. but still
        but still 20 November 2015 12: 39 New
        0
        good Yes, Plovdiv is the oldest "living" (and permanently inhabited since its foundation) city in Europe.
  • but still
    but still 19 November 2015 11: 08 New
    +1
    The American, French and Japanese science of whitewashing, the most ancient civilization in Europe and the world, has spread to the territory in Bulgaria and often from Balkanite from 6200 to 4500 g. Tverdenyat se founded on the exposition "The ruin is holy on Stara Europa" in New York, studied on prof. David Anthony, anthropologist Michel Louis Seferiad, archaeologist Prince Mikas, archaeologist Uliam Rayan, prof. Petko Dimitrov from the Institute of Oceanology, Kam BAS, prof. Hristo Smolenov - mathematician, prof. Yordan Yordanov is an anthropologist and a book on the researcher Harald Harman "A riddle on Dunavskat civilization"

    Representatives of American, French and Japanese science noted that the most ancient civilization in Europe and in the world flourished in Bulgaria and part of the Balkans from 6200 to 4500 BC. These statements, in connection with the exhibition "The Lost World of Ancient Europe" in New York, are based on the research of Prof. David Anthony (Anthony), anthropologist Michelle Louis Seferiad, archaeologist Prince Mikasa, archaeologist Viliam Ryen, prof. Petko Dimitrova from the Institute of Oceanology at the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, prof. mathematicians Hristo Smolenova, prof. anthropology Yordan Yordanov and the book of the researcher Harald Harman "Mysteries of the Danube Civilization".
    1. Aljavad
      Aljavad 19 November 2015 23: 25 New
      0
      the most ancient civilization in Europe and in the world flourished in Bulgaria


      Why be surprised? The oldest agriculture in Europe is the consequence. And Tartar inscriptions again. (not to be confused with "Great Tartary"! This is not the topic.)
  • Truth-lovers
    Truth-lovers 19 November 2015 20: 50 New
    +1
    Quote: Severomor
    For 117 years (more than a century!) In the Russian Academy of Sciences, from its foundation in 1724 to 1841, out of 34 academic historians, there were only 3 (THREE !!!) Russian academicians. This is M.V. Lomonosov, Ya.O. Yartsov and N.G. Ustryalov. ALL THE OTHER THIRTY ONE ACADEMICIAN WERE FOREIGNERS

    What to do if our, Russian aristocrats or those who had the means, did not want to study and teach, and do science, and use more serf girls in their estates?!? And in Europe since the 12th century, a lot of universities, not to mention the fact that not only Germany (Brandenburg), but also Austria, Bavaria, Saxony, Denmark, Switzerland and etc.

    Quote: Reptiloid
    I read the article with pleasure. I regret that I did not have time yesterday. I am embarrassed to ask: so who were they, these Siberian Our Predecessors --- Caucasoids or Mongoloids?

    This is one of the main issues, and the fact is that the skeletons are poorly preserved. BUT most likely the Symen-Turbins are not related to the Caucasoid Aryans of Andronovo, and perhaps the Caucasians of Central Asia mixed with the Mongoloids, possibly even from the Amur region (sort of protopoleans or Huns). Indeed, it was a quick military migration, perhaps something in the style of the later nomadic empires of Asia.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 20 November 2015 12: 20 New
    +1
    With pleasure I read all comments TODAY. Just "birthday heart" !!! Received answers to my questions and thoughts. Thank you to the respected author and respected members of the forum!