Military Review

Who in Russia suddenly became preoccupied with "historical myths" about the Panfilovites, Zoe Kosmodemyanskaya and the exploit of Alexander Matrosov?

235
In the network, and not only in the network, the controversy is gaining momentum, which is difficult to ignore. If I may say so, network potentials once again found themselves on opposite sides of the barricades in their relation to historical science, historical events and the very description of history.
A controversy has been initiated by individuals who call themselves “free history” supporters. This is a liberal group, as they say, the creative intelligentsia, which decided to throw a kind of challenge to the well-established and seemingly quite traditional information about those or other periods of the existence of the Russian State (in its different configurations and with different names). What is the essence of the challenge? To understand this, you can refer, for example, to the September publication of the historian Sergei Mitrofanov on the pages "Free Press"titled "What is the Evil of a Patriotic Myth?"


Кто в России вдруг озаботился "историческими мифами" о панфиловцах, Зое Космодемьянской  и подвиге Александра Матросова?


The reader, by clicking on the link above, you can get acquainted with the publication of Mr. Mitrofanov.

If you convey the essence of the publication, the historian (of course, from among the "free") tries to convey to the audience his thoughts that historical fiction, they say, should not be a place in modern historical science. The fact that any unproved episode of history must be removed from historical editions and publications, so that, you understand, do not mislead the younger generation. And in general, history, if you follow the logic of Mr. Mitrofanov and supporters of this same logic, is a science that must stand on the reinforced concrete support of archival data and the testimony of "witnesses" recorded by the "correct" historians.

As an example of what “the younger generation is misleading", the story of 28 Panfilovites who at the cost of their own lives stopped the advancement of German tanks near Moscow. From the publication:

Another unpleasant moment of this discussion is the ease with which the modern man in the street with the ribbon of St. George undertakes to sing the death of his fathers, as if it was the death by order of the command that was the apotheosis of military glory and a wonderful personal realization. Worst of all, he transfers this morality, including to the modern man, forming his militaristic attitude to the world and the agenda.

By the way, it is necessary to think that it was for this purpose that front correspondent Alexander Krivitsky composed an epic about 28 Panfilov’s fight with German tanks at the Dubosekovo junction, where they all died, but did not miss the enemy, for such was the political attitude. It doesn’t matter whether that episode of the war was in reality, wasn’t, but wherever the soldier was, from now on he would follow the example of Panfilov, Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya, Alexander Matrosov without hesitation to die in the name of the regime and on the orders of their commanders. Not only not feeling fear, but also thanks to the fate of being able to distinguish themselves in this way and join the communist saints.


In general, it makes no sense to continue quoting, because the position of Mr. historian Mitrofanov and the presented fragment is clear. But, as modern youth says, the trick is that Mr. Mitrofanov, with his sizzling criticism of “historical mythology,” is far from being the only instance. In Russia, for some time, there is a whole team of “correct historians” who formed the so-called Free Historical Society, for which, forgive, for three miles, it carries “one rifle for three” and “two million German women raped by the Red Army” ... And all these gentlemen and ladies now they are in a position and they are trying to declare that a whole layer of national history is based not on documentary evidence, but on myths composed either by journalists, or “historians-commies”, or by someone else who is not hand-crafted for the liberal scoops. These same ladies and gentlemen are trying to expose themselves as such adepts of historical truth, who “know for sure” that “there was no feat by Alexander Matrosov”, that 28 panfilovtsy “did not die near Moscow”, that Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya’s heroism was “not proved by anyone”. Like, this is all historical mythology, which the “regime” has powdered and continues to powder the brains of the Soviet, and now the Russian, society. They say that we and only we tell you the truth, you can rely on us and only on us when studying our national history, and everything else is a lie, a scoop and a provocation.

Well ... Let us assume that historical science, as its liberal "partners" see it, is strictly archival documents and confirmed facts. Well ... Let the feat of 28 Panfilov near Moscow is an unproved fact. Well ... So, publishers will publish only facts, facts, facts, and based on archival materials, obtained by the light of a green lamp by the same historian Mitrofanov. Wonderful…

Here is just one question: why adherents of the theory of “debunking historical myths” by this term understand only those pages that are written by Russian historians of the Soviet period? Why shouldn't Mr. Mitrofanov take care of the alternative “myth-making”, if he and his supporters tend to call this phenomenon in historiography that way. Well, for example, why not start by dispelling the myth that the Allies really cared about the fate of the Soviet Union and the peoples of Europe enslaved by the Nazis, and that, you understand, it was precisely because of this that the Allies suddenly decided to think about opening a second front ... When a Soviet soldier died he stood near Moscow and in Stalingrad, for some reason the allies were not eager to open a second front, and then, when the fate of the Nazis was clear, immediately bam - sharply expressed concern for the USSR, the enslaved peoples of Europe, the meeting on the Elbe, fraternization, smiles, etc. Veta ... Unless disinterested aid of the West - is not a historical myth that all the post-war years the citizens are fed adherents of liberalism.

Why do not liberal truth seekers try to dispel the myth of the “General Frost,” who, you see, stopped the Nazis near Moscow? Why not answer those crazy publications of a western journalist who, through the press, “told the city and the world” that the Soviet soldiers in Europe 1945 were the only ones who were engaged in “robbing, killing and raping German women”? Why not strike the truth with the historical liberal myth that the “oppressed” Soviet citizens in a single rush in the course of the referendum spoke in favor of liquidating the USSR, and that the economies of the former Soviet republics afterwards showed the wonders of growth, and the republics themselves felt the breath of true freedom and democracy ...

Why do those who are on the other side of the barricades have “claims” exclusively to the Panfilovites, Alexander Matrosov and Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya - that is, who and what is one of the foundations of patriotism, the core of the ideology of self-sacrifice, fraternity and mutual assistance? Why, our liberal, forgive my God, "friends" simply can not open the cards and say that their task is not to squeeze the historical truth, but to once again dab the memory of Victory, the very principles of sacrifice Russian (in the broad sense of the word) people, their desire for unity before a common misfortune. In this regard, such persons can call themselves at least free historians, although advocates of historical truth and morality, but you can’t hide the inside, as they say. Forgive me generously, but it is painfully frank from such “champions” who break into Russophobia as soon as their mouth opens ...
Author:
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235 comments
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  1. anEkeName
    anEkeName 11 November 2015 06: 57 New
    54
    Why do those who are on the other side of the barricade have “claims” exclusively to Panfilov’s, Alexander Matrosov and Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya — that is, to whom and what is one of the foundations of patriotism, the core of the ideology of self-sacrifice, fraternity and mutual assistance?

    An obvious attempt by pseudo-liberoids to cut the historical roots of patriotism - the trunk on which sovereignty rests.
    1. oleg-gr
      oleg-gr 11 November 2015 07: 02 New
      52
      Attempt No. ... to destroy the country from the inside. Candidates for the "foremen of perestroika" lined up. They are offended that their society does not support.
      1. Sirocco
        Sirocco 11 November 2015 07: 49 New
        24
        Quote: oleg-gr
        Attempt No. ... to ruin the country from within.

        You know, I noticed this trend in Odnokl. liberal propaganda is now underway, as everything is bad in the Russian Federation, salaries are falling, pensioners, medicine are being beaten by social programs in general, they say the authorities are not happy with them. So those who are over 60 years old, the pages of real people write a lot of comments, why would there be such a change?
        I understand that not everything is so smooth in our country, with the above, but being in a state of war, and now there is a war against us, many do not want to sacrifice goods, holidays abroad, and other delights. This is that egoism, or shortsightedness, of some of the masses.
        1. oracul
          oracul 11 November 2015 08: 10 New
          19
          Думаю, что среди шестидесятилетних не так уж и много, просиживающих за компьютерами. И вообще, компьютерные опросы это во многом мнение особой прослойки людей, отгораживающейся от реального мира виртуальным, в котором тепло и уютно, личное мнение превыше всего, напрягаться и мыслить ни к чему, если читаешь и принимаешь на веру размышлизмы какого-то "авторитета" осененного званиями и степенями и озабоченного лишь тем, чтобы вломиться, а скорее вляпаться, в историю.
          1. crazy_fencer
            crazy_fencer 11 November 2015 11: 48 New
            25
            Quote: oracul
            I think that among the sixties there are not so many people sitting at computers.


            Как говорил один неплохой программист: "Не обобщайте, да не обобщены будете". Мне, например, 61, и компьютер с обязательным наличием интернета - основной рабочий инструмент. Я я совершенно уверен, что отнюдь не один такой. Вы лучше на подрастающее поколение посмотрите. Из них половина "продвинутых пользователей" на самом деле, ничего, кроме "ВКонтакте" и Facebook не знают.
            1. guard
              guard 11 November 2015 19: 20 New
              +6
              one might not have noticed these statements by freethinkers of grant-eaters, but I would like to draw attention to the fact that they act sequentially, first your chief archivist said that there was no feat of 28 Panfilov’s, they say there is no documentary evidence, and his position allows us to assume that he then yes knows! Moreover, all this is transmitted to the media as a sensation !!
              And now another figure appears, says a lot, leads into such jungles from which the fragile young brain can’t get out, and indirectly, not speaking directly, all this nonsense relies on the statements of that archival official.
              There is a systematic work (attack) of liberal circles on the common past of Soviet people and, most importantly, the victory over fascism, equating Stalin with Hitler, the purpose of which is to denigrate it so that there is no connecting, unifying factor for people living in such vast expanses i.e. former union !!!
              1. aba
                aba 11 November 2015 21: 47 New
                +6
                Systematic work (attack) of liberal circles on the common past of Soviet people


                Только удар направлен в будущее. Если изъять эти, якобы, "мифы" то далее имеем в недалёком будущем общество без стержня и его можно на низать на любую идеологическую опору.
                1. go21zd45few
                  go21zd45few 13 November 2015 10: 21 New
                  +2
                  Everything is clear with the liberals. It is necessary to pay attention to school education where history and historical facts are either not considered at all or are considered in a distorted form. The school curriculum was laid down in the 90s under the editorship of the West. Next, on what films are young people brought up. Militants, murders, corruption, the thirst to get rich in any way. And nothing sacred.
              2. Zlatik
                Zlatik 12 November 2015 06: 54 New
                +4
                Этих "историков" - 5 колонну- давно пора отправить 20 метровый лес лобзиком пилить!
          2. OlegLex
            OlegLex 12 November 2015 20: 05 New
            0
            Ой не знаю не знаю, шестидесятилетние это те кто либо скоро пойдет на пенсию либо уже на пенсии, те кто последние годы работал как минимум с привлечением вычислительной техники или те у кого дети внуки с компутерами не расстаются, Вы в "одноклассники" загляните наберите в поиске возраст за 60 и поймёте правду жизни.
        2. patr
          patr 11 November 2015 08: 30 New
          39
          And it always has been. Take for example WWII. Who got under the gun? Who was dying in the trenches? Not these screamers who scream at every corner about the lack of crap and regularly go to the embassies for tanks, but simple IVANS and MARY !!! So it will be now. I believe, not everything is lost !!! But the war is already underway. Only some can not, or maybe do not want to understand this.
          1. Talgat
            Talgat 11 November 2015 09: 22 New
            38
            Конечно же, в СССР тоже была пропаганда, и возможно какие то факты были "художественно "интерпретированы"

            But the goal of the liberals is not to establish the historical truth at all - their goal is to use some details to discredit the USSR as a whole and belittle the significance of the feat of the Soviet people in the Second World War
            to sow disappointment and rejection of patriotism in society - these are the goals of external enemies

            In fact, the details are not so important, the main thing is that we all understand that the Panfilov division had a place to be - it was really recruited in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan and really played an important role in the battles near Moscow. Our hero is real - Baurzhan Momysh Uly - one of the most productive commanders near Moscow. The feat of the Soviet people and the leadership of the country is real
            1. Santa Fe
              Santa Fe 11 November 2015 10: 01 New
              -60
              The best monument

              The best monument ever!
              1. Ingvar 72
                Ingvar 72 11 November 2015 10: 31 New
                74
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                The best monument

                Hi Oleg! hi This one is better! laughing
                1. Santa Fe
                  Santa Fe 11 November 2015 10: 49 New
                  +6
                  Quote: Ingvar 72
                  This one is better!

                  No, you have a desecration of the monument

                  The meaning of the Motherland is a call to peace
                  1. Ingvar 72
                    Ingvar 72 11 November 2015 11: 44 New
                    14
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    No, you have a desecration of the monument

                    The Statue of Liberty is not a monument, but a symbol for attracting a slave of power. Type of lamp-trap for mosquitoes.
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    The meaning of the Motherland is a call to peace

                    A pretty call for peace - you will come with a sword - you will rake the Lyuli! good
                    P.S. And I like Rasteriaev the same! drinks
                    1. Sober
                      Sober 12 November 2015 17: 44 New
                      +5
                      The strongest call for peace! Whoever comes to us with a sword will perish by the sword. (St. Alexander Nevsky)
                2. free
                  free 12 November 2015 08: 47 New
                  0
                  chop off your hand!
              2. aba
                aba 11 November 2015 21: 50 New
                +1
                Looks like censored Charlie Ebdo
              3. OlegLex
                OlegLex 12 November 2015 20: 08 New
                0
                you can’t mix holy things with shit. minus
            2. kalibr
              kalibr 11 November 2015 14: 02 New
              0
              Even the ancients knew: the devil is always hiding in trifles! (in this case - in the details!)
            3. MrK
              MrK 12 November 2015 14: 02 New
              +9
              When you read liberal-moronic nonsense, I want to once again lay out a story about modern Panfilov liberals. Read.

              EXPLOITING HEROES (STORY) - 2011.11.19
              AUTHOR: ANDREW SIDORCHIK
              http://www.pravda.info/society/96593.html

              ... The historian Mironenko felt a kick in the ass and collapsed to the frozen bottom of the trench. Still not believing what was happening, he got up and looked up. On the edge of the trench in a semicircle were soldiers of the Red Army.
              - This is the last? - clarified one of the military, apparently the commander.
              “That's right, comrade political instructor!” - the soldier reported, whose kick sent the director of the State Archive to the trench.
              - Excuse me, what's going on? The historian muttered.
              “How is it going?” - grinned the political instructor. - The establishment of historical justice. Now you, Mironenko, will save Moscow from the Nazi invaders.
              Politruk pointed to a field on which several dozen German tanks froze in anticipation. Tankers climbed onto the towers and, shivering from the cold, watched with interest what was happening at Russian positions.
              - I? Why me? - Mironenko asked in shock. “What do I have to do with this?”
              “The most direct,” answered the political instructor. - All of you here have the most direct relation to this!
              The commander pointed Mironenko to the trench and the historian saw that it was full of respected people: there were already academician Pivovarov and his nephew-journalist, Svanidze was sitting by the machine gun with bulging eyes, next to him was the main de-regulator Fedotov, who was trembling from the cold, or from horror , further there were still familiar faces, but the frightened archivist completely forgot their names.
              “What are we all doing here?” - asked Mironenko. - This is not our era.
              The soldiers laughed together. Not only Russians but also Germans laughed, and even the recently killed German tanker, trying to maintain decency and pretending not to hear anything, nevertheless, shuddered with laughter.
              - Yes? - the political instructor was surprised. “But you all tell in such detail in detail how it really was!” You explain with foam at the mouth that we threw Hitler with corpses. It’s you shouting that the people won the war, not the commanders, and especially not Stalin. You explain this to everyone that Soviet heroes are a myth! You yourself, Mironenko, told us that we were a myth!
              - Excuse me, are you political instructor Klochkov? - asked Mironenko.
              “Exactly,” the commander answered. - And these are my fighters who are destined to lay their heads in this battle at the Dubosekovo junction! But you, Mironenko, assured that everything was wrong, that all these heroes were a propaganda myth! And you know what we decided? We decided to really be a myth. And to defend Moscow to trust trusted and reliable people. In particular, to you!
              - And you? The historian asked quietly.
              “And we are in the rear,” one of the fighters answered. - The guys and I were thinking to die for our homeland, for Stalin, but since we are a myth, why should we substitute bullets for nothing! Fight for yourself!
              “Hey Russians, how long have you been?” - shouted the shy German tankman.
              “Now, Hans, now,” the political instructor waved to him. - You see, Mironenko, time does not endure. It is time for you to defend your homeland.
              Then academician Pivovarov jumped out of the trench and rushed briskly towards the Germans with raised hands. In his hands he held white pants, which he was actively waving.
              “What a shame,” one of the fighters said.
              “Don’t worry,” Klochkov chuckled. - This is not our shame!
              Two German tankers caught Pivovarov and dragged him by the arms to the trench, dropping him down.
              “Schweine,” the German swore, looking at his overalls. “This hero of yours has pissed me off my leg with fear!”
              1. MrK
                MrK 12 November 2015 14: 07 New
                +7
                Read more.
                The second tankman shot Panfilov’s people to smoke and, drawing out, said:
                - Yes, comrades, you're out of luck! And for these here you were dying! Really in our Vaterland same have grown?
                “No, comrade,” one of the Panfilov responded to him. “You now have none.” Only g e and yes the Turks.
                - And who are they? - the German specified.
                A Red Army soldier whispered an answer to the aggressor in his ear. The face of the German was flooded with shame. Waving his hand, he went to the tank.
                “Let's quickly end with us,” he said. “I want to die from such things again.”
                Svanidze rushed from the trench to the political instructor.
                - Comrade commander, you misunderstood me, I didn’t say anything like that! And then, I can’t, I have a “white ticket”, I have poor eyesight and an ulcer!
                Politruk confidentially leaned towards Svanidze:
                - Do you think the tyrant Stalin was worried? He bombarded the enemy with cannon fodder! And even more so, I'm not your commander. You have your own - experienced and proven! Here he comes!
                From the depths of the trench Nikita Mikhalkov came to the place of conversation, holding a shovel from his hand.
                - Comrade political instructor, how can this be fought against tanks? - the director begged.
                “You know better,” the commander answered. “You already did this.” Yes, by the way, your beds are there. You can quickly establish anti-tank defense from them! Well, or pray, or something. Maybe help!
                Then the political instructor ordered the construction of his fighters.
                - Where are you going? - Mikhalkov asked with a longing in his voice.
                - Where to? - the political instructor grinned. - Take a position in your rear! The NKVD detachment is not at hand, so we ourselves will replace it! And if some scum from your penal battalion rushes out of position, we will shoot on the spot for cowardice and treason!
                - So there are no penal battles yet!
                - One created. Especially for you!
                German tanks roared engines. Desperate screams and swearing were heard in the trench - the new defenders of Moscow found out who was the first to expose the myths and dragged them into this story. Fedotov was beaten all together, after which he was thrown out of the trench under a German tank with a bottle. Someone shouted goodbye to him:
                - Well, for the Motherland, for Stalin!
                Mikhalkov clung to the outgoing political officer:
                - Comrade, my father fought, I was always a patriot and defender of heroes, help me!
                “Only out of respect for you,” the political instructor answered. - I give a great tool to fight the enemy! As good as it gets!
                And the commander handed the director a badminton racket and three shuttlecocks.
                “Farewell, your homeland will not forget you,” Mikhalkov, the political instructor, patted goodbye and rushed after his departing fighters ...
                repost with Captain45:
                1. gorefest7777
                  gorefest7777 13 November 2015 09: 21 New
                  +3
                  great fiction !!!! It would be true that these dodgers at least an hour there, so as not to mess our souls with their shit from shit!
              2. THE_SEAL
                THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 14: 56 New
                -12
                Political instructor at the forefront? What kind of bullshit?
                1. Sorokin
                  Sorokin 13 November 2015 16: 49 New
                  +1
                  They were in reconnaissance, and went in search. The fact that they were not prepared and the idiots lacked is also true. Grandfather told. But there were. And on the very front line and the stripes were not paired. They finished them first and knocked them out.
            4. THE_SEAL
              THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 14: 54 New
              -7
              Quote: Talgat
              In fact, the details are not so important, the main thing is that we all understand that the Panfilov division had a place to be - it was really recruited in Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan and really played an important role in the battles near Moscow. Our hero is real - Baurzhan Momysh Uly - one of the most productive commanders near Moscow. The feat of the Soviet people and the leadership of the country is real

              Well no. Details are just important. In order to prevent more war without a dull cheer of patriotism.
          2. Hon
            Hon 11 November 2015 13: 01 New
            +3
            Quote: patr
            And it always has been. Take for example WWII. Who got under the gun? Who was dying in the trenches?

            Well, where are we now in the trenches? on stock exchanges and banks.
            1. Sober
              Sober 12 November 2015 17: 56 New
              +2
              Quote: Hon
              Well, where are we now in the trenches? on stock exchanges and banks.

              There is no place here for dreams and chimeras,
              Noisy those years time.
              All couriers, couriers, couriers,
              Broker, broker, broker.
              From Jew to Chinese
              Rogue and gentleman
              All in a single column are considered
              Equally - business men,
              On tops, caps and caps
              A rain of stocks whistles and pours.
              That's where the world chains are to you,
              This is where the world swindler is.
              If you want to burst out your soul here,
              That will be considered: either stupid, or drunk.
              Here it is - the world exchange!
              Here they are - scoundrels of all countries. (Yesenin)
          3. THE_SEAL
            THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 14: 49 New
            -14
            Read the memories of veterans. Political workers were not particularly fond of keeping their fat asses away from the front lines. And such political workers invented fairy tales about the destroyed thousands of Germans. Frontline workers only grinned bitterly in response to this bullshit, because the war came with great blood and partly because of such stupid ideologists who were going to throw all their hats. Where in the 41st year came 3 million prisoners? But these were the very peasants who did not want to fight for the fucking workdays on the fucking collective farms, where they also wanted to charge you for the fact that you wanted to have an extra cow to feed the children. Maybe it's time to tell people the truth? What should they bear the hardships for and what should they fight for? For the patrician ambitions of leadership?
        3. mishaia_23
          mishaia_23 11 November 2015 09: 30 New
          +6
          You know, I noticed this trend in Odnokl. liberal propaganda is now underway, as everything is bad in the Russian Federation, salaries are falling, pensioners, medicine are being beaten by social programs in general, they say the authorities are not happy with them.

          Admins. you really need to block these pages ...
          Honestly already got these русофоwould
          1. Hon
            Hon 11 November 2015 13: 05 New
            +6
            Quote: mishaia_23
            You know, I noticed this trend in Odnokl. liberal propaganda is now underway, as everything is bad in the Russian Federation, salaries are falling, pensioners, medicine are being beaten by social programs in general, they say the authorities are not happy with them.

            and it’s possible to block thoughts? if you close yourself from such moods, the mood will not go anywhere, just you will not know about them.
        4. Alexey-74
          Alexey-74 11 November 2015 09: 52 New
          0
          precisely noticed ....
        5. Down House
          Down House 11 November 2015 10: 18 New
          +2
          Quote: Sirocco
          So those who are over 60 years old, the pages of real people write a lot of comments, why would there be such a change?

          Наврятли это реальные люди, скорее обычные платные боты, маскирующиеся под реальных людей "с опытом".
          1. varov14
            varov14 11 November 2015 21: 56 New
            12
            Something tells me that this is crap about sixties. I’m close to seventy, I’m friendly with the computer, but I don’t like much in domestic politics, we harness too long, but anyway, the main enemies of Russia. They found historians, now in peacetime a person can lie on a grenade to protect his neighbor, and war in general requires self-sacrifice by definition. Listen to these pigs do not respect yourself, in Syria, the airfield kept the garrison for a year, and we Russians have been surrounded all our lives, we must scrape off this liberal mold, the state body will be healthier.
            1. Sober
              Sober 12 November 2015 18: 11 New
              +2
              With filthy mold must be constantly and vigilantly fought. According to scientific research, it is indestructible. It can lurk, and then still it will come out in all its glory. One must be vigilant, not let her penetrate deeply into the foundation and walls. And then, like the USSR, this trash can undermine and destroy.
          2. Sober
            Sober 12 November 2015 18: 04 New
            0
            Quote: Down House
            Наврятли это реальные люди, скорее обычные платные боты, маскирующиеся под реальных людей "с опытом".

            Who recorded me in bots ?!
        6. Hon
          Hon 11 November 2015 13: 00 New
          10
          Quote: Sirocco
          and now there is a war against us,

          а руководство страны, руководители госкорпораций и прочие, про войну в курсе? чего то не заметно. депутатам зарплату в два раза повысили "все для фронта все для победы" wassat
          1. Sirocco
            Sirocco 11 November 2015 17: 24 New
            +1
            Quote: Hon
            and the country's leadership, heads of state corporations and others, about the war in the know?

            I will answer you with your phrases.
            Quote: Hon

            and it’s possible to block thoughts? if you close yourself from such moods, the mood will not go anywhere, just you will not know about them.

            laughing hi
        7. THE_SEAL
          THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 15: 18 New
          -1
          Sirocco, you are probably a civil servant or deputy?
        8. mervino2007
          mervino2007 13 November 2015 00: 22 New
          +1
          Quote: Sirocco
          many do not want to sacrifice benefits

          Dear, how should these old people sacrifice? Than? In what form? And most importantly - why? Do not turn away, war is war, and wealth is wealth, it is growing. Poverty, too. Here you would turn to the oligarchs. With the same. But there will be no response, seriously. Our elite at all times at first thought about their pocket, and then about the general. Therefore, the trouble of 1612. and the death of Emperor Paul - their actions. And now? The booth continues .....
        9. cast iron
          cast iron 13 November 2015 22: 56 New
          0
          Well, yes, the oligarchs with bureaucrats will not sacrifice anything, because the belts for them will be pulled around the neck of the population)))
      2. Ded_smerch
        Ded_smerch 11 November 2015 08: 41 New
        12
        Attempt No.
        согласен эти "историки" уже эток с середины 80х нам рассказывают о том, что наша история это грязь и ужас. Все это с такой регулярностью происходит, что я лично не замечаю когда новая волна начинается. По мне это уже лет 30 как не утихает, а появлением интернетов стала более заметная.
        1. THE_SEAL
          THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 14: 58 New
          -6
          Quote: Ded_smerch
          Attempt No.
          согласен эти "историки" уже эток с середины 80х нам рассказывают о том, что наша история это грязь и ужас. Все это с такой регулярностью происходит, что я лично не замечаю когда новая волна начинается. По мне это уже лет 30 как не утихает, а появлением интернетов стала более заметная.

          If there he himself survived several attacks of the Nazis, with huge losses because there is nothing elementary to defend. And then German machine guns would drive you into the forehead - then I would listen to you.
          1. gunya
            gunya 12 November 2015 17: 21 New
            +5
            THE_SEAL (3) RU

            And if you, dear, do not even put on the defensive, but push you into a drunk with a knife, what would you do?
            It is good to reason while sitting on the sofa and in the subjunctive mood, and if so, in fact?
            1. Sober
              Sober 12 November 2015 18: 24 New
              +2
              I saw, in real, modern life, how one person rushed at 6 drunken people kicking two with their feet. It was not a commando. He did not even serve in the army (by sight). And he dispersed them. There are Russian people, there is the Russian Spirit, on Russian Earth! Shut up the mold! You have to keep the answer!

              And, I also know a woman who, when a bandit pointed a gun at her husband. I broke the bottle and put it to the throat of a villain ...
              And defend the homeland ... Many can and Panfilovskimi and Sailors ... become. Do not doubt!!!

              And also, I want to say. Everyone judges others by himself! So it's easy to see who is in front of us!
          2. Ded_smerch
            Ded_smerch 13 November 2015 08: 28 New
            +1
            ну расскажи нам всю правду про черенки от лопат и заградотряды, давно вас "знатоков" не слушал
      3. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 11 November 2015 10: 36 New
        +4
        Quote: oleg-gr
        Кандидаты в "прорабы перестройки" в очередь выстроились

        The candidates are the same. When searching for the biography of Sergei Mironov, a fact surfaced quite by accident (but naturally) -
        Jewish historian and teacher Sergey Mitrofanov
        http://www.aen.ru/?page=brief&article_id=74884
        Nothing changes in this world. request
      4. Sasha 19871987
        Sasha 19871987 11 November 2015 14: 40 New
        +4
        I can tell the liberals only one thing - they don’t judge the winners ... don’t touch our heroes, from century to century the achievements of Russia are belittling Mothers !!!
        1. THE_SEAL
          THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 15: 00 New
          -6
          Quote: Sasha 19871987
          I can tell the liberals only one thing - they don’t judge the winners ... don’t touch our heroes, from century to century the achievements of Russia are belittling Mothers !!!

          Heroes should not be touched. But the truth must be said about the war. So that generations would not be tempted to start another slaughter.
          1. MrK
            MrK 13 November 2015 18: 47 New
            +1
            Quote: THE_SEAL
            But the truth must be said about the war. So that generations would not be tempted to start another slaughter.


            The truth about war is our victory. The truth about the war - these are the heroes we know that gave their lives for what you lived Real propaganda cannot beat its own.
            And even if the propagandists of the time of the Great Patriotic War embellished something, then this was done to raise the national spirit, and not to receive prizes and stars.
            Most people live with myths about our victories, because there are almost no living sources.
            And destroying these myths you destroy the national spirit, faith in the grandfathers of the victors. And you are just trying to get the Russian people to lose their ability to rally against a possible aggressor. The question is why are you doing this?
            If you are a historian, then argue about the accuracy of historical facts in your own scientific journals. And do not touch the people.
            And one should not print stupid liberal stupid things about one rifle on three, detachments of the border, who shot their own, fines who won the war, the troupes of our soldiers who covered up the trenches.
            Question: Why do almost all liberalists belong to a particular ethnic group?
      5. Aksakal_07
        Aksakal_07 11 November 2015 17: 11 New
        +3
        Ну, уж нет! Не удастся либерастам повторить трюк конца 80-х с созданием очередного "Межрегионального блока народных депутатов", чтобы попытаться развались Россию!
      6. bastard
        bastard 11 November 2015 20: 45 New
        +3
        Quote: oleg-gr
        Попытка №... развалить страну изнутри. Кандидаты в "прорабы перестройки" в очередь выстроились

        Queue in turn. am
      7. BMP-2
        BMP-2 11 November 2015 21: 00 New
        +5
        ВИА "Историки" поёт под чужую дудку. А если доплатят - то ещё и станцует! yes lol
        1. Sofia
          Sofia 12 November 2015 10: 04 New
          +2
          Это точно! И станцуют, и спектакль покажут. И сколько из, таких "виа", которые себе имя делают на всем, чем могут. Нет бы сами проявили патриотизм.
          1. gunya
            gunya 12 November 2015 17: 25 New
            +4
            Это точно! И станцуют, и спектакль покажут. И сколько из, таких "виа", которые себе имя делают на всем, чем могут. Нет бы сами проявили патриотизм.


            And why, they already live well on grants: know to pour mud on the country in which you grew up and got an education.
      8. THE_SEAL
        THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 15: 16 New
        -6
        Quote: oleg-gr
        Attempt No. ... to destroy the country from the inside. Candidates for the "foremen of perestroika" lined up. They are offended that their society does not support.

        To tell the truth about the war is to ruin the country? Dude, you need to be in the trenches for a day.
        1. Sober
          Sober 12 November 2015 18: 31 New
          +1
          Who has some truth!
        2. Ded_smerch
          Ded_smerch 13 November 2015 08: 33 New
          +2
          да что ты все кудахчешь про "тебя бы..." других аргументов нету? Как вы уже задолбали "правдарубы"
    2. Starover_Z
      Starover_Z 11 November 2015 07: 05 New
      +6
      Пытаясь извернуть поток истории и место погибших в войне за право существования государства кампания "Митрофанов и Ко" просто напросто обозначила себя современными политическими евро-геями !
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 11 November 2015 07: 48 New
        17
        100 years will pass and historians will be crowded who will say that there was no battle on the Kursk Bulge and there was no Brest Fortress.
        And the most surprising thing is that those who will believe and say will come to their surprise. Yes, you read the works of the next Gumelev, he put everything on the shelves.
        1. aleks_29296
          aleks_29296 11 November 2015 10: 26 New
          10
          Everything will depend on the upbringing of young people, what values ​​they instill in her, because she is the bearer of historical memory. And so, if the young now drive the so-called alternative history, over time, those who witnessed historical events will die out, and ... welcome to the new reality. Ukraine is a living example of this.
          1. Sober
            Sober 12 November 2015 18: 33 New
            +3
            Quote: aleks_29296
            Ukraine is a living example of this.

            A terrible example.
        2. perm23
          perm23 11 November 2015 10: 56 New
          21
          The whole trend is that we Russians are always and to blame for everything, everything is wrong with us, everything is false. We all have to apologize for everything. We have honestly gotten it all. And the worst thing the country is doing about it. Someone really wants to rummage and find a lie and expose it, someone just spit in their history once again, in their people. Yes and power being on it, apologizes too. We bomb ISIS and why all this evidence that we didn’t end up in the hospital, we are so good. The West is useless to prove something, they don’t need it, Nobody is fighting for the truth. The USA and the EU, when they bombed Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, didn’t apologize to anyone that they didn’t get there. It is time to end this endless apology for Lenin, for Stalin, for Katyn, for the USSR, etc. No one apologizes to us, not Italy, Spain, Hungary, Romania, for which they fought against us in the ranks of the Nazis. Not Poland for the tortured Russians in 20 years. None . And all these scribblers and pseudo-historians have enough to touch our history with their dirty hands.
        3. Sergey S.
          Sergey S. 11 November 2015 22: 37 New
          +5
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Yes, you read the works of the next Gumelev, he put everything on the shelves.

          A L.N. Gumilev then?
          He listened to his lectures, did not hear anything seditious.
          Гумилев был противником теории борьбы "деса и степи", и отстаивал идею необходимости учета географического _этнографического) фактора.
          But only.
          Лишь некоторые упертые "историки" не соглашались... находили к чему придраться по мелочи.... но и не опровергали суть от Л.Н. Гумилева.
          1. The comment was deleted.
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          3. GAF
            GAF 12 November 2015 00: 13 New
            +2
            "А Л.Н. Гумилев то причем?" Ну как же. В своё время он кое-каким этническим группам порядком соли на хвост насыпал, сравнивая их с вирусами в здоровом организме. Вот и жжёт до сих пор. Никак успокоится не могут.
        4. The comment was deleted.
    3. Victor jnnjdfy
      Victor jnnjdfy 11 November 2015 07: 09 New
      -24
      Advocates from the frontline newspapers worked as they could. How much they lacked imagination.
      Хотелось бы, чтобы наши "исторические корни" были правдивы.
      Moreover, we always had heroes and there were examples of self-sacrifice in the name of the Motherland. But sometimes it happened that it was easier and easier for a fighter of the propaganda front to come up with something while sitting in the editorial office.
      Сейчас не нужно выяснять, кто был какой герой. Люди сражались и гибли за свою страну. А на будущее сделать выводы, что у г-д Митрофановых было меньше поводов для "подрубания".
      1. mirag2
        mirag2 11 November 2015 07: 52 New
        17
        Извините,но в попу этих "историков"...
        Вот истинное лицо таких "историков"-все они одного поля ягоды(+18,нецензурщина):
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 11 November 2015 08: 00 New
        12
        Yes, that would be something to pay attention to the author. For example, there is a photo of Zoe, obtained from a German officer. They show that the young girl gave her life for her homeland. What is even more valuable you can give? It doesn't matter what she did or didn't do. She died fighting for the Motherland! So there is no problem with the base.
        Панфиловцы... Вроде бы выяснялось, придумал это автор статьи или нет. Так выяснилось или нет? Вот что важно! Читаем как в газете Правда этот их подвиг описал тов.Жданов (был у нас такой парт.деятель) в Англии. Так как он его описал, ох, лучше бы не описывал. Немки... С ними так.К юбилею 1995 года у нас вышла книга,написанная офицерами нашей армии "Психология Великой победы Советского народа", где со ссылками на архив МО сообщалось и про дезертиров, и самострельщиков, и о 500 тыс. уголовных дел возбужденных против сов. солдат за войну. И 80 тыс. офицеров! Но... по ОТДЕЛЬНЫМ ВИДАМ преступлений они не разобраны, то есть разобраны, но это секретно до сих пор. Понятно, что изнасилования были, и приговоры были... Сколько точно? Секрет! Так что же мы удивляемся, что люди "там" этим пользуются и льют на нас помои? И кто в этом виноват? Секретным было даже куда послали танки колонны АЛЕКСАНДР НЕВСКИЙ на деньги РПЦ. Узнали это лишь недавно, а в советское время это была ТАЙНА! Так что вопрос об исторической правде -это важный политический вопрос. Пока все не выяснится, будут люди спекулирующие на каких-то отдельных неточностях и "неизвестностях". Они будут объявлять их ВАЖНЫМИ по принципу "за деревьями леса не видно", а "слабые умы" им поддакивать - "Все вранье!". И так и будет продолжаться, если все оставить так, как есть!
        1. oracul
          oracul 11 November 2015 08: 35 New
          11
          Я надеюсь, что ваши помыслы чисты. Но надо всегда помнить, что на весах истории всегда есть правда и кривда. Так вот, если старательно рыться в анналах истории, в поисках мерзостей, то они действительно были. Как им не быть, если в движение пришли десятки миллионов людей, если мы потеряли 27 млн. человек, из которых подавляющее большинство мирных жителей, если разрушена самая индустриальная часть страны, города и села, если у многих потеряны родные и близкие? Но правда в другом: партия и лично Сталин не призывали к насилию, напротив они говорили,что "Гитлеры приходят и уходят, а немецкий народ остается", переступавших эту грань привлекали к ответственности, вплоть до расстрела. Может нам еще извиняться за то, что фашизм разгромили? По поводу же немок скажу так: многие из них готовы были ради продуктов для семьи переспать хоть с американцами хоть с русскими. Потом пришло время оправдываться перед теми, кто этого не делал, а тут подсуетились западные историки - русофобы и понеслось - насилие, насилие... Надо уважать себя, свою страну, свой народ и его подвиг отвечать так как отвечал Сталин Тито, когда тот предъявил претензии к поведению отдельных солдат и офицеров при освобождении Югославии: да, факты имеют место, но это не может перечеркнуть то, что сделано для Победы ( в моем изложении). Не надо превращаться в чистоплюев, ибо не они, к счастью, делают историю, а Сам народ.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 11 November 2015 08: 59 New
            +6
            Леонид! Чтобы Вас не повторять, ограничусь: ДА,ДА,ДА! И я как-то уже писал в статье по Макаревича (здесь же!), что вот дед Щукарь... у плетня, сортира не имел, ан все равно мы великий народ и история у нас великая и трагическая. И в ней все было,да, но это наша история! И должен быть большой ТАКТ у того, кто пытается разбираться в ее хитросплетениях, КУЛЬТУРА ИСТОРИЧЕСКОГО ИССЛЕДОВАНИЯ. А не так - а-а-а, данных нет... значит тут все наврали, все г... "Погибла Россия"! Так тоже нельзя и это не метод!
        2. perm23
          perm23 11 November 2015 08: 43 New
          +7
          Then there was a war, a terrible war, there was a lot, but you don’t have to dig into all this now, there was a different time and today you should not sit in the trench but at the table, and enjoy the life given to the dead soldiers, find out what and how it was then. You just have to be thankful to the dead heroes. You just need to be people. Why do you know who and how many raped, who sat for what, who knocked out how much, who exactly was at this junction, whether it was or not. They are all heroes and all.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 11 November 2015 09: 03 New
            +1
            If you follow your logic, then such attacks will continue in ever-increasing amounts. Therefore, that from the point of view of the law, people did not commit anything criminal, which means they simply can’t shut up their mouth like that.
        3. Egoza
          Egoza 11 November 2015 09: 25 New
          13
          Quote: kalibr
          Так что вопрос об исторической правде -это важный политический вопрос. Пока все не выяснится, будут люди спекулирующие на каких-то отдельных неточностях и "неизвестностях". Они будут объявлять их ВАЖНЫМИ по принципу "за деревьями леса не видно", а "слабые умы" им поддакивать - "Все вранье!". И так и будет продолжаться, если все оставить так, как есть!

          Пока у страны нет четкой и ясной идеологии, такие историки и будут извращать историю, чтобы оболванивать молодежь. Как там было в "плане Далласа"? "Мы должны проводить такую пропаганду, чтобы у них больше никогда не могли появиться молодогвардейцы и Космодемьянские" Вот все по плану и идет. Тем более опорочить СССР очень нужно тем, кто захватил народное добро - заводы, фабрики, земли. С одной стороны вроде и нельзя хаять все подряд, но и хвалить нельзя а то народ живо про социализм вспомнит. Потому и нужно опорочить самые яркие, героические страницы истории. Но настоящая ИСТРОИЯ все расставит по своим местам. Дайте срок.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 11 November 2015 10: 33 New
            +2
            Quote: Egoza
            But the real ISTROIA will put everything in its place. Give time.

            Did you know that many of our data in the military archives is classified until the 2045 year? Is this the time limit you give? Why not open them now, eh?
            1. creak
              creak 11 November 2015 21: 51 New
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              Quote: Egoza
              But the real ISTROIA will put everything in its place. Give time.

              Did you know that many of our data in the military archives is classified until the 2045 year? Is this the time limit you give? Why not open them now, eh?


              Прочтите сборник "Гриф секретности снят" (под редакцией генерал-летенантанта Кривоошеева(Генщтаб РФ) - это просто первая и надеюссь, но не последняя попытка показать истинный масштаб трагедии,которая постигла страну...
              For those who are especially vigilant - a documentary collection - prepared by professionals - the State Department did not participate in the preparation ...
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 11 November 2015 22: 23 New
                0
                So what? One tiny collection of huge archive MO. Do you know how many pages in the books PSYCHOLOGY OF THE GREAT VICTORY OF THE SOVIET PEOPLE, Prometheus, Tver 1995 (military team, all on the MO archive) - 85 page. ALL PSYCHOLOGY in 85 page. And how many volumes in our history of the Second World War? And how much in the history of 2-th world of war published in the United States and in Japan? Incompatible !!! And why is that? And they started all with a 6 volume!
        4. PSih2097
          PSih2097 11 November 2015 11: 57 New
          +6
          Quote: kalibr
          For example, there is a photo of Zoe obtained from a German officer. It shows that the young girl gave her life for her homeland.

          Then Joseph Vissarionovich ordered not to capture the soldiers of that German regiment that Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya was hanged.
        5. MrK
          MrK 12 November 2015 13: 50 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          It is clear that there were rape, and the sentences were ... How much exactly? Secret!


          Yes, there is not a secret. Type in any search engine author Alexander Kurlyandchik "Damned Soviet Power" ... on Prose. RU. A quote from this book with links:
          Historians know the exact number of Soviet troops punished for their cruel treatment of civilians, mostly German (including rape): 4148 troops.
          This, incidentally, is consistent with the number of Allied soldiers who fell under the military tribunal for rape in 1944-45. - 5280.
          1. gorefest7777
            gorefest7777 13 November 2015 09: 25 New
            +1
            only the proportions in the propropy are different, how many allies on the front were 450 tons for the people, and we have 7 million. I think there is a difference.
      3. Simon
        Simon 11 November 2015 08: 06 New
        26
        "Victor Jnnjdfy", у меня стоит вопрос, а почему у Дубосекова фашисты остановились? Им оставалось до Москвы пройти совсем немного и они были бы в Москве, ведь дальше было свободно, войск больше не было. Видимо фашисты устали, или замерзли и подожгли свои танки, чтоб согреться! Туфту гонишь- современный пропагандист. Были 28 панфиловцев, были эти герои и они остановили танковую фашистскую армаду. Изменяя историю, в скором времени либералы, подпитанные американскими долларами, начнут говорить, что войну выиграли американцы с англичанами, что они и Берлин брали и что Советский Союз войну не выигрывал.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 11 November 2015 08: 36 New
          +3
          Тезка, приветствую! Вы хорошо ответили "Виктору", но... сколько бы Вы не говорили, что верите в 28 героев(а герои были, иначе бы война закончилась совсем иначе), всегда найдется человек, который прочитает описание их подвига в газете ПРАВДА за 42 год (номер навскидку не помню, но это кто хочет -найдет)данное в Англии нашим парт-деятелем Ждановым. Наверно он говорил с лучшими намерениями. Хотел произвести впечатление. Но... там есть подробности, которые, ну... "не реальны". И что Вы возразите этому человеку, когда он Вам покажет текст из газеты? А ведь Жданов должен был знать лучше других? Или нет? То есть нужны честные и объективные люди, которые бы раз и навсегда это все выяснили. Потому, что герои были, много, людей скромных, даже застенчивых. Неизвестных! И были да, Козьмы Крючковы, убившие 11 немцев, 11 взявших в плен и получившие 11 ран в себя и 11 в лошадь? Вот это он сказал, кстати, или написал досужий журналист?
        2. patr
          patr 11 November 2015 08: 38 New
          +6
          It's time for them to close their mouths. Selling creatures !!!!
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 11 November 2015 09: 03 New
            +2
            Как Вы это сделаете, Виктор? Поймите, эпоха "диктатуры пролетариата" и "товарища маузера" канула в Лету, сейчас сделать это можно только по закону. Даже про их "продажность" писать Вы не имеете по закону права - где доказательства, что тот же Митрофанов получает деньги из США, в том числе и за указанный материал? Поверьте, если бы все было так просто,как Вам представляется, они бы уже давно бы этим не занимались... Понятно почему?
            1. Nonna
              Nonna 11 November 2015 11: 40 New
              +1
              don't worry - the time will come for shooting liberal shit.
          2. Alexey-74
            Alexey-74 11 November 2015 10: 12 New
            +1
            they need to be planted ..... for 10-15 years then they will think about how to open their mouths.
        3. gorefest7777
          gorefest7777 13 November 2015 09: 27 New
          +1
          even better - the Americans landed a squad of immortal zombies under a Dubosekovo teleporting them from parallel reality and JJ Bush the Younger commanded them along with Eisenhower. Just a little bit and it will be so: ((((!!!!!
      4. Colonel
        Colonel 11 November 2015 08: 13 New
        11
        Quote: Victor Jnnjdfy
        Advocates from the frontline newspapers worked as they could. How much imagination they had

        That's right. For example, Sergei Borzenko fantasized to the point that he went to the landing (as a correspondent) and earned the Star of the Hero (as an officer). And it does not dispute, documented. And you with your
        Quote: Victor Jnnjdfy
        Хотелось бы, чтобы наши "исторические корни" были правдивы

        you think that since Matrosov was not near a lawyer and a DVR, then there was no feat. And so more than 300 times during the war. The propagandists sat and invented according to the order. I don’t want to stick labels, you stick it yourself.
      5. The comment was deleted.
      6. Varyag_1973
        Varyag_1973 11 November 2015 09: 20 New
        +5
        Для Victor Jnnjdfy. Ну вот ты и нашелся г-н митрофанов..., перелогинься, страна должна знать своих "хероев" в лицо!

        "Пропагандисты из фронтовых газет работали, как могли. Насколько им хватало фантазии."

        Everything was clear with the propagandists in the USSR, they worked for the good of the Union, but whose good are you working for ?!
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 11 November 2015 10: 43 New
          -5
          You, Alexey, are too severe to Victor. You can not do it this way! Open all the same truth. We look at the photo: T-34 goes to the front. We look at the chassis - there is no rubber on the wheels! Rubber deficiency with all the ensuing consequences! Not one photo, not two ... The question is, why not give the tower, the body, but not to show that ... it would not be necessary? Then a photo - tires appeared on the first and last wheels - deliveries began ... Then - again, all the wheels in tires.
          Читаем статью... "Танкист-герой ранен осколком находясь в танке..." О чем нельзя было писать? Что ранен? Нет! Что осколком в танке!!! Понятно почему? А Вы "работали на благо Союза"... Как работали? Получается плохо работали!Или не умели? А кто следил?
          That is, the blunders made with the best intentions because of the dense non-professionalism (?) Are so much in the Truth that ... you won’t wonder who is behind this? Enemies? Stalin did not see that he was reading the Truth with a blue pencil in his hands? So he is not so wrong ...
          1. Colonel
            Colonel 11 November 2015 12: 56 New
            +4
            Quote: kalibr
            What a shrapnel in the tank !!! I see why?

            Unclear. In the absence of alloying additives in the armor, it became quite fragile and a shell hit, even without breaking through the armor, caused chips that split the crew.
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 11 November 2015 13: 30 New
              -5
              And why was it to know the general Soviet public? Newspapers also wrote that our tanks .... high-speed, armored. And suddenly a fragment broke through the armor and wounded the tankman. Let this 100 time be true during the war years should not have been written about this. This is the basis of propaganda: do not lie, but keep silent!

              I do not understand what a minus? What did I say wrong?
              1. uragan114
                uragan114 11 November 2015 20: 36 New
                +4
                Why only to the Soviet public? If about the T-34, it was already recognized by everyone that it was the best WWII tank. And here lies and silence?
                1. kalibr
                  kalibr 11 November 2015 22: 27 New
                  -1
                  I tell you about one thing, you tell me about another, by God! It is not written in the Truth that this is T-34! And it doesn’t matter 34 or 144. It is important how the material is served: first our tanks ... blah blah blah. Then - a shard struck in the tank. So fragments pierce the armor of owls. tanks! Why write about it when you can not write? Heroism does not diminish it! What is it really necessary to chew on it?
              2. gunya
                gunya 12 November 2015 18: 05 New
                0
                I do not understand what a minus? What did I say wrong?


                For not understanding the situation of that time. For those who do not understand:
                the front and the rear were not isolated, on the contrary, they closely communicated, so there was no need to hide anything.

                For colonel SU

                It's not about the absence of alloys, if you had to be inside the tank, then probably remember that the inner surface is rubberized (T-34-85, T-10, IS-3, T-54) in order to eliminate the spread of scale that occurs when casting the tower and subsequent t /about.
                1. Colonel
                  Colonel 13 November 2015 16: 47 New
                  0
                  Quote: gunya
                  rubberized surface

                  Наверняка в указанном Kalibr ом эпизоде речь шла либо о Т-34-76, либо о КВ. Внутренностей этих машин не видел, но вряд ли можно говорить о покрытии их резиной (не смог просклонять слово "обрезинена" crying ), and even if the BT or T-28 .....
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. gunya
            gunya 12 November 2015 17: 56 New
            +1
            kalibr RU

            О чем нельзя было писать? Что ранен? Нет! Что осколком в танке!!! Понятно почему? А Вы "работали на благо Союза"... Как работали? Получается плохо работали!Или не умели? А кто следил?


            А зачем "не зная броду" передёргивать?
            Or it is not known what any tank crew member
            can injure a fragment inside the tank from armor pierced by armor-piercing, from a burst of the projectile itself, even from a stray fragment flew into the hatch.
            According to the tankers who fought, the hatches of the commander and driver were almost always ajar.
          4. uragan114
            uragan114 14 November 2015 12: 19 New
            0
            "Смотрим фото: Т-34 идет на фронт. Смотрим на шасси - нem rubber on wheels! Дефицит каучука со всеми вытекающими последствиями! Не одно фото, не два"

            Понимаю,что поздно отвечаю,но это Т-34 образца 41-го года.Это конструктивная особенность:на двух колесах "обрезинка" стояла сверху колеса, на остальных внутри ступиц.
            Take a closer look and see that the wheels are different.
        2. Victor jnnjdfy
          Victor jnnjdfy 11 November 2015 14: 51 New
          +4
          They would work for the good of the Union, if they wrote the Truth about the exploits, and would not invent them. As happened, for example, with the feat of Mr. Gastello.
          Then it turns out that it was not like that at all (many more local residents remembered those events), as some military commander-in-chief described, and the crew was not the same, and the grave was wrong (they discovered this back in 1951 and silenced this fact ) ... As a result, in the 90s they shot a docfilm in which all the lies were turned inside out, and according to the results, the title of Hero of Russia (posthumously) was assigned to another captain, by the name of Maslov, who was buried in the grave, although they learned about it back in 1951 ...
          And the Union was not largely due to the total lies of such propagandists. Lie has short legs.
          Both Maslov and Gastello died fighting for their homeland. Maslov eventually got a Hero star, thanks not to propagandists, but to historians and enthusiasts.
          I wrote, if you carefully read, that you do not need to give an occasion to Messrs. Mitrofanov for their propaganda, inventing fairy tales and fables, and henceforth, as far as possible, truthfully write about the exploits and people who committed them.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 11 November 2015 22: 32 New
            +1
            Quote: Victor Jnnjdfy
            And the Union was not largely due to the total lies of such propagandists. Lie has short legs.

            Yes!!! Totally agree with you! Moreover, it has been proven long ago by research on newspapers and archives! My graduate student will have to defend on the topic of informing the Soviet press of citizens of the USSR from 1921 to 53 year about living abroad. There are TRUTHs, archives, a lot of local newspapers ... I think it’s worth giving here excerpts from her work, so that people would see at what unsteady information foundation our society was built. But it is impossible!
            1. Victor jnnjdfy
              Victor jnnjdfy 12 November 2015 08: 46 New
              0
              Как только "дадите отрывки", так на Вас тут же набросятся и попытаются "растерзать" местные ура-патриоты, ископаемые замполиты и просто неадекватные товарищи...
              On this site, for example, almost everyone is convinced that Polish officers in Katyn were shot by the Nazis. And such facts as Shelepin’s letter, or the fact that in May 1940 all correspondence between these officers and their relatives ceased, does not seriously affect local minds and does not prove anything.
            2. Victor jnnjdfy
              Victor jnnjdfy 12 November 2015 09: 40 New
              +2
              Сейчас тоже информационный фундамент местами не очень "фундаментальный". Например, СМИ и высшие чиновники часто твердят, что Хатынь сожгли бандеровцы. Хотя, если есть желание, то можно легко узнать, что Хатынь сожгли каратели из батальона, который был сформирован в Киеве из пленных красноармейцев. И главный поджигатель Васюра был до войны не бандеровцем, а ст. лейтенантом Красной Армии. В батальоне, конечно, были в подавляющем большинстве этнические украинцы. Но для нынешних свидомых украинцев мы "лживые ", пытающиеся опорочить "героических патриотов-бандеровцев". Сами даем им повод.
              Или взять наш Государственный Праздник 4 ноября. Как он правильно называется я так и не знаю до сих пор. Но смысл в его в том, как нам везде говорят, что в этот день в 1612 году были изгнаны из Кремля польские интервенты. На какой-то передаче два экс-депутата-"демократа" Станкевич и Цапко (они, походу, либо этнические поляки, либо с примесью польской крови) ткнули всех носом в то, что в 1610 г. русские бояре (Семибоярщина)сами пригласили поляков в Москву, а Владислава хотели сделать русским царем. Если глубже покопаться, то польский комендант Кремля Гонсевский был Велижским старостой (г. Велиж ныне в Смоленской обл.), а больше всех тогда зверствовали реестровые казаки Польского Королевства, которые вовсе не поляки, но предки нынешних украинцев. И каких поляков откуда изгнали? А в руках "Станкевичей" козырёк...
    4. Alexey-74
      Alexey-74 11 November 2015 09: 50 New
      +7
      С автором целиком согласен - зародить зерно сомнения в молодежь вот истинная цель либералов. Альтернативная история - это не наука, с таким же успехом каждый из нас может стать историком.А "псевдоисторики" - просто проплаченные агенты иностранного влияния.Нам просто необходимо поднимать патриотизм в стране, основанный на великой истории великого государства. Полностью изменить методику образования в школах и Вузах, ввести наконец единый учебник истории и т.д.
      1. Walking
        Walking 11 November 2015 10: 15 New
        +6
        The Great Patriotic War dealt a big blow to our gene pool, brave active people died at the fronts, and not the best people in the rear sought armor from the draft.
        And all these pseudo-historians are truly ambitious, either actually stupid, or work out the money invested in them.
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 11 November 2015 14: 08 New
        +1
        Dear Alexey! And who will write this tutorial? Specify a specific person?
    5. Hyppopotut
      Hyppopotut 11 November 2015 10: 25 New
      +5
      В 90е мы таких "историков" наслушались и начитались... До сих пор тошнит.
      It’s very insulting that there are quite a few idiots who are being waged on this bullshit!
    6. Down House
      Down House 11 November 2015 10: 25 New
      +3
      Quote: anEkeName
      Why do those who are on the other side of the barricade have “claims” exclusively to Panfilov’s, Alexander Matrosov and Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya — that is, to whom and what is one of the foundations of patriotism, the core of the ideology of self-sacrifice, fraternity and mutual assistance?

      They have more extensive claims to all the positive moments of our history!
      Но уезжать они от нас не хотят в "либеральные страны", там за то чем они занимаются нелиберально так сажают в тюрьму!
    7. Altona
      Altona 11 November 2015 12: 05 New
      +5
      Quote: anEkeName
      An obvious attempt by pseudo-liberoids to cut the historical roots of patriotism - the trunk on which sovereignty rests.

      ----------------------
      Исходник статьи лучше прочитать, он там всех приплел, и американцев в бок толкнул с их флагом на Иводзиме, и в конце сам себе стал противоречить, что мол надо "ценность жизни" воспевать, генералы умирали "от водки и в постели". Да у нас без пяти минут маршалы в боях умирали, на переднем крае, тот же Черняховский, например. А подвиги совершали люди во имя жизни на земле. А солдат и должен действовать по приказу, и погибнуть по приказу, а иначе какой же он солдат. Видимо господин историк мало осведомлен о предназначении армии вообще. А за что погибали немецкие солдаты, они же тоже погибали по приказу? Какого рожна им надо было на Востоке? И кто дал им приказ "дранг нах остен"? Этот аспект почему то господина историка не взволновал, какая то избирательная историческая правда получилась, однобокая и с претензией к мёртвым...Как то уж совсем некомильфо...
    8. bornikrub
      bornikrub 11 November 2015 12: 22 New
      +1
      The creators of fascism are Jews (Torah, Talmud and other cannibalistic charms),
      Distributors - Germans,
      The main carriers are Anglo-Saxons.

      The fascist roots of pseudoliberoids are obvious.
    9. THE_SEAL
      THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 15: 13 New
      -3
      У Владимира Першанина собраны воспоминания именно фронтовиков, а не комиссарские байки, которыми активно пичкали в советское время, т.к. пропаганда запрещала говорить правду. Так вот когда им рассказывали байки про Матросова они удивлялись, т.к. дословно "МГ-42 просто разрезал бы его тело пополам за доли секунды". И я с этим согласен. Нужно воспитывать на подвигах реальных героев, многие из которых остались в тени. А то при Сталине потери были 7 млн. При Брежневе уже 20. А при Горбачеве уже 26. Причем 26 это считается наиболее близко к истине.
    10. gorefest7777
      gorefest7777 13 November 2015 09: 13 New
      +1
      эти животные (а людьми их назвать сложно) начали эту гнусность еще в 1991, я помню как вышла статья какого -то "психолога", который утверждал, что Александр Матросов был сумашедшим, что никакой человек в здравом уме не расстанется добровольно с жизнью. Эти земноводные говорят на нашем языке, но мы должны четко осознавать - это враги не только Русского Мира, это враги всего самого сокровенного, что издревле прославлял сам человек в своих деяниях. Это не либерализм- это скотство умноженное на разврат. к сожалению выход один депортировать их в светлый запад , пусть там взасос лобызаются со своими педофилами, геями и пр. цветом либеральности.
  2. Glot
    Glot 11 November 2015 07: 01 New
    +4
    Каждый зарабатывает на "хлеб с маслом" как может. Те кто пытается переписать те или иные исторические моменты, подменить одно другим, зарабатывают вот таким вот способом. Сами они, либо отрабатывая заказы наших многочисленных "друзей" не суть. Суть что это - враги, и отношение к ним должно быть соответствующее.
    It seems like it was already proposed to introduce at the legislative level an article on the inadmissibility of revision and distortion of history. It's time, it's time to introduce. Enter and start attracting on it, giving a real term. Let them feed each other on felling sites.
    1. dmb
      dmb 11 November 2015 12: 43 New
      +1
      And for this article we will send everyone to logging, or selectively? If everyone, then I'm afraid without the leadership of the country will remain. There, including it is not clear that the guaranteeing Guarantor, such is carried, that it does not smell of objective history. Examples of pharisaism lead, or themselves repeatedly convinced? Honestly read their assessments of Stalin's activities (by the way, I partially agree with them here).
      1. Glot
        Glot 11 November 2015 12: 51 New
        0
        What do you suggest? Leave as is?
        1. dmb
          dmb 11 November 2015 13: 56 New
          +2
          Ну отчего же, только если уж всех, то всех. Ну по крайней мере это с Конституцией хоть как-то будет совпадать. Кстати, если Ваше "дельное" предложение пройдет, то боюсь первыми тайгу будут осваивать вовсе не Мироненко или Пивоваров, и не редакция "Эха", а те, кто будут писать историческую правду о приходе во власть нынешних "выдающихся государственных и общественных деятелей". Это ведь тоже история нашей страны.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. dvg79
      dvg79 11 November 2015 13: 21 New
      0
      Do you believe that the current government recognizing Katyn will defend the truth, and not sculpt matters on the patriots ??
  3. dedBoroded
    dedBoroded 11 November 2015 07: 01 New
    +6
    клеймить надо таких "историков"...
    1. Turkir
      Turkir 11 November 2015 08: 45 New
      +5
      клеймить надо таких "историков"...

      Yes, they are already branded, there is no place for a new brand ..
      This distortion of our story seems to be well paid. You yourself know who we are sitting in the media and on TV. They know how to write greyhounds.
      It is they who inspire us with the idea that in Germany there was no fascism, but there was Nazism, and fools are repeating this propaganda.
      We ourselves must increase our level of knowledge, including in our history.
      Otherwise, it will be different.
      1. marline
        marline 11 November 2015 09: 59 New
        +4
        Quote: Turkir
        It is they who inspire us with the idea that in Germany there was no fascism, but there was Nazism, and fools are repeating this propaganda.

        And what's the difference? ... I don’t think that our fathers and grandfathers knew the grades of g ... They just beat the Nazis and the Nazis without understanding the whole world - Russians, Ukrainians, Tatars, Uzbeks, Cossacks, Chechens ... Why many thanks and eternal glory to them ...
        А что касается героев, простой солдат он как у Бернеса: "с медалью за город Будапешт"
        1. Turkir
          Turkir 11 November 2015 10: 32 New
          +1
          Who cares?.

          And what did I write? What is the difference?
          Honestly, I'm just surprised.
          After all, I wrote the same thing as you wrote.
          1. marline
            marline 11 November 2015 11: 24 New
            0
            Yes, I'm sorry ...
      2. gunya
        gunya 11 November 2015 12: 59 New
        +2
        Turkir (1) SU

        It is they who inspire us with the idea that in Germany there was no fascism, but there was Nazism, and fools are repeating this propaganda.


        Если вникать в тонкости, то в Италии был фашизм, а в Германии национал-социализм -упрощенно "нацизм". По большому счёту вещи однотипные и мало различимые.
  4. Barakuda
    Barakuda 11 November 2015 07: 06 New
    12
    Мои Деды таким "вольным историкам" глотки бы перегрызли. am Fighters, People at the cost of life defended their homeland. And it doesn’t matter, one rifle for three or even one leaflet stuck .. And not out of fear or profit.
    Such liberals should be run into tanks (a smaller fin), so that later fingers wouldn’t hit the keyboard with trembling.
    1. perm23
      perm23 11 November 2015 08: 12 New
      +6
      These scribblers would be sent to the front in the trenches in 1941, there they would have written more than one trench. And we just need to know this scum and not let it disgrace Russia and our memory. Not one country would not allow anyone to dare to chase its heroes. Nobody, but we allow. Norway, Denmark, Poland, France quickly surrendered, but still they have their own heroes and no one there dares to write badly about them or seek out the truth or not. Here the power should be tough - to punish.
      1. Weyland
        Weyland 12 November 2015 01: 43 New
        0
        Quote: perm23
        These scribblers would go to the front in the trenches in 1941


        no, better than the 42nd, and be sure to not earlier than July 28 - otherwise they would have run away ... smile
        (if you forgot - the famous order No. 227 was issued on July 28, 1942) soldier
  5. venaya
    venaya 11 November 2015 07: 10 New
    +4
    historical fiction, they say, should not have a place in modern historical science

    Yes, modern science consists entirely of historical myths, only fertilized with evidence, and this is what enemies use. How great is the influence of history on people, it seems that it is already unnecessary to prove, therefore, it is necessary to treat this science with extreme caution, avoiding serious blunders in terms of both factual and evidence. And here on the site there are already many examples of free interpretation of individual events. One must always be on the alert in such a delicate matter.
  6. Koronik
    Koronik 11 November 2015 07: 10 New
    16
    "Да ведь наши либеральные, прости господи, "друзья" просто не могут раскрыть карты и сказать, что их задача состоит вовсе не в том, чтобы выжимать историческую правду, а в том, чтобы в очередной раз обмазать грязью память о Победе, сами принципы жертвенности русского (в широком смысле этого слова) народа, его стремление к единству перед общей бедой".
    I agree with the author.
  7. bulat
    bulat 11 November 2015 07: 13 New
    +9
    And how many unknown heroes and exploits? Eternal memory to all.
    1. patr
      patr 11 November 2015 08: 42 New
      +2
      My grandfather is missing!
      1. Koshak
        Koshak 11 November 2015 18: 21 New
        +1
        The Kingdom of heaven! soldier hi
  8. Stinger
    Stinger 11 November 2015 07: 13 New
    +5
    Яблоня от Яблока не далеко падает. Им бы только об открытии собственного "свечного заводика" писать. Как высшей либеральной да и общемировой (не побоюсь этого слова) ценности.
  9. Humpty
    Humpty 11 November 2015 07: 18 New
    +3
    Эти либероиды в своих дегенератских семейках разобраться не могут , но гадят на подвиги людей . И зачем им заниматься развенчанием мифа про генерала мороза ,если "это" занимается созданием мифа о том , что дескать Советский союз - главный виновник 2-й Мировой войны , которую Сталин и Гитлер договорились начать для истребления евреев .
    In Europe, for example, many publications write just that.
  10. Same lech
    Same lech 11 November 2015 07: 19 New
    +5
    as they say, the creative intelligentsia, which decided to challenge the established and seemingly quite traditional information about certain periods of the existence of the Russian State


    Is this this or something ... this abortion victim recently made a scandal in the FSB reception room .... PR horseradish man .... 30 days now in the monkey has this PR.

    With such guys it’s the only way ... he immediately mocked him at the monkey ... court and a month of community service
    1. perm23
      perm23 11 November 2015 08: 35 New
      +4
      Little is this attitude. And this would have to beat the eggs in the pre-trial detention center to the floor for real.
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 11 November 2015 08: 37 New
        +2
        Quote: perm23
        And this would have to beat the eggs in the pre-trial detention center to the floor for real.

        I would cut it off.
        1. Weyland
          Weyland 12 November 2015 01: 45 New
          0
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          I would cut it off.


          What for?!
          It is necessary as in Poland in the old days - to nail and put a knife nearby; won't want to die of hunger - he will cut off! laughing
        2. The comment was deleted.
    2. gunya
      gunya 11 November 2015 13: 04 New
      +3
      Сему "пиарщику" не месяц "принудработ" а минимум 5 лет на свежий воздух для обдумывания своих поступков без права УДО.
  11. Sanitary
    Sanitary 11 November 2015 07: 19 New
    14
    Go into yourself and the doctrine; do sim
    constantly: for, by doing so, you will save yourself and those who listen to you.

    Enough to listen to anyone, I’m sick of the vysers of the liberals pretty and for a long time. My grandmother was twice in occupation (now Kaluga Region), her eldest sister was evacuated (Omsk) with a factory, they collected weapons for the front, my wife was a partisan, my grandfather was 90 years old, I was in captivity twice. Although they do not like to talk about those times (especially grandfather), but I heard from them quite a bit about the Second World War. Yes, for some it’s the 2nd World War, but for me it’s the Great Patriotic War, which the whole Great Country embarked on, because they fought for their homeland!
  12. Kos_kalinki9
    Kos_kalinki9 11 November 2015 07: 20 New
    11
    but wherever the soldier was, from now on he had to follow the example of the Panfilov, Zoe Kosmodemyanskaya, Alexander Matrosov without hesitation to die in the name of the MODE and on the orders of his commanders.

    The word is some kind of regime. According to liberals, the concept of Homeland and Fatherland for a Soviet person does not exist.
    1. gunya
      gunya 11 November 2015 13: 07 New
      +4
      For liberals of all stripes, the concepts of Homeland and Fatherland do not exist.
  13. sva180480
    sva180480 11 November 2015 07: 21 New
    20
    These are not historians. They for what they rounded up what they write. There is such a profession to sell the homeland.
  14. sledge
    sledge 11 November 2015 07: 23 New
    +2
    Burn sedition with hot iron
  15. parusnik
    parusnik 11 November 2015 07: 29 New
    +1
    The fact that any unproven episode of history must be removed from historical publications and publications, so that, you know, he would not mislead the younger generation...Hmm..interesting, it turns out the approach from the point of view of the Code of Criminal Procedure Article 14 Part 3. All doubts about the guilt of the accused (in our case Nazi Germany), which cannot be eliminated in the manner established by this Code (historical facts), are interpreted the benefit of the accused (Nazi Germany).
  16. sa-zz
    sa-zz 11 November 2015 07: 29 New
    22
    A new teacher comes to class:
    - My name is Abram Davidovich, I am a liberal. And now all get up in turns and introduce yourself just like me ...
    - My name is Masha, I am a liberal ...
    - My name is Stepa, I am a liberal ...
    - I am Little Johnny, I'm a Stalinist.
    - Little Johnny, why are you Stalinist ?! !
    - My mother is Stalinist, my father is Stalinist, my friends are Stalinists, and I, too, are Stalinist.
    - Little Johnny, and if your mother were a prostitute, your dad was a drug addict, and your friends were p.ed.k.a.m.i, who would you be then ?! !
    - Then I would be a liberal.
    1. THE_SEAL
      THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 15: 05 New
      0
      sa-zz what do you mean by liberal?
  17. 1536
    1536 11 November 2015 07: 31 New
    +8
    Смысл понятен. Просто этим вольным каменщикам от истории надо задать один вопрос: Вы, господа, признаёте, что Красная Армия победила германский фашизм, который нес гибель всему человечеству? Если "да", то дальше разговор бессмысленно продолжать, т.к. Победителей не судят. А если "нет", слушайте, вы последователи фашизма, ведете борьбу с устоями нашего государства и общества. После этого уже в другом месте с ними будут вести беседы.
  18. rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 11 November 2015 07: 36 New
    +5
    Что-то в последнее время слишком активно начала проявлять себя "либеральная" плесень. Наверное поступили новые методички из Вашингтона и решается вопрос о грантах. После начала действий ВКС в Сирии эти продажные "свободно мыслящие" агрессивно полезли из всех щелей. Тут без народного средства борьбы с такой нечестью не обойтись.
    1. Svetlana
      Svetlana 11 November 2015 08: 43 New
      +2
      Quote: rotmistr60
      продажные "свободно мыслящие" агрессивно полезли из всех щелей. Тут без народного средства борьбы с такой нечестью не обойтись.

      Народное средство, я думаю, это "дать пи...юлей".
  19. Same lech
    Same lech 11 November 2015 07: 39 New
    +2
    from Washington and the question of grants is being decided.


    Yes, it’s all the US Ambassador TEFT activated his agents among the liberals .... he urgently needs to register an enema on the carpet in our Foreign Ministry for other procedures.
  20. Bugor
    Bugor 11 November 2015 07: 44 New
    +7
    One of my grandfathers went missing in the first battle. I should not assume that he died protecting the future ME?
    There would be no grandfathers, there would be us ...
    And just what they were - leave for academic science.
  21. Tatar 174
    Tatar 174 11 November 2015 07: 55 New
    +5
    А ведь эти "историки" живут среди нас, если встречу хоть одного из них, то фронтон я им попорчу стопроцентно...
    1. perm23
      perm23 11 November 2015 08: 33 New
      +2
      Agree with you . they need to know them to spoil the pediment and pull out the language.
  22. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack 11 November 2015 08: 08 New
    +3
    hands off the history of My Homeland !!!! ready to ruin everything, one word liberals! to stifle these attempts in the bud - to such historians according to the article - for treason to the Motherland - to think of Toda. for ardor - sorry. I have the honor!
  23. Shurale
    Shurale 11 November 2015 08: 10 New
    +4
    It's simple, the war continues with the Soviet Union. And why? Because while his last representative is still alive, the union is also alive. As long as those who remember him remain, the war will continue.

    And now the question is, did the USSR die so? They do not fight a dead enemy ...
    1. Darkness
      Darkness 11 November 2015 08: 17 New
      +4
      Our powers that are, to the snot, are even afraid of the thought of a revival of the Union. Because they understand - you’ll have to pay and not everyone can catch a plane to London in time.
  24. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 11 November 2015 08: 10 New
    +1
    Да, попытки "развенчать" исторические мифы были и будут. Но народ слагает легенды, и верит в них не потому, что работает пропаганда, а потому, что в кошмаре постоянных поражений первого периода ВОВ безумно хотелось положительного примера. Чтобы те, у кого есть стержень в душе, оперлись на этот пример, вопреки всему, уперлись - и победили.
  25. Darkness
    Darkness 11 November 2015 08: 18 New
    +2
    Эти "историки" в отличии от Юлина, Дюкова и др. Имеют поддержку на самом верху. Десоветизация - это цель нынешней власти.
  26. Corsair0304
    Corsair0304 11 November 2015 08: 26 New
    15
    В этом месяце на экраны выйдет фильм "28 панфиловцев". Обязательно схожу сам и сына тоже возьму. У того, кто не помнит прошлого своей страны нет будущего.
    1. foxstrat89
      foxstrat89 11 November 2015 09: 19 New
      +3
      Unfortunately, the film will be released only next year, the team working on the set does not have time to finish everything in the stated time frame. They promised to release a movie on the anniversary of the counteroffensive near Moscow. On November 16 only the trailer for the film appears. Waiting for
    2. _my opinion
      _my opinion 11 November 2015 17: 41 New
      +5
      Quote: Corsair0304
      В этом месяце на экраны выйдет фильм "28 панфиловцев". Обязательно схожу сам и сына тоже возьму. У того, кто не помнит прошлого своей страны нет будущего.

      probably because of this (the release of this film) and screams intensified ... all that can not even imagine how 28 people could stop such forces of the Nazis ... and they could ...
      Они хотят "раскопать правду"?... а правда в том, что ценой героических усилий наш народ разгромил гитлеровцев!!!
      ... even one Man can be an irresistible force for example you do not have to go far:
      This famous photo in August 2008 circulated around the world newspapers.
      After the rout of the Georgian army, its retreating units regrouped and decided to return to Gori, but stumbled upon a Russian checkpoint. The photo shows how a soldier of the RF Armed Forces, at the ready with a machine gun, is opposing the motorized infantry of the Georgian Armed Forces, convoy officers threatened the machine gunner to get out of the way and let them in, to which they answered, "I’ll go. Then the media, who were moving with the column, tried to talk with the machine gunner, and they received the same answer. As a result, the column turned around and moved to where it came from.
      Foreign journalists then published an article entitled "300 is not necessary, one is enough."
      The hero of this photo is Bato Dashidorzhiev.
  27. Zomanus
    Zomanus 11 November 2015 08: 36 New
    +1
    What is bad is that these truth-loving guys write history books for our children and students. That's what they need to be weaned from in the first place.
  28. Tamanskiy
    Tamanskiy 11 November 2015 08: 39 New
    +3
    Мне интересно, почему этим тварям вообще разрешается публиковаться в нашей стране?! И опять развенчание мифа о "путинской цензуре", что, оказывается - нет её?!
    1. Darkness
      Darkness 11 November 2015 08: 42 New
      +2
      In Russia there is a desovetization.
    2. kalibr
      kalibr 11 November 2015 09: 16 New
      +1
      And why is it allowed to publish Fomenko's nonsense about Russia-Horde, which discovered America? And the Cossacks who built the pyramids in Giza?
  29. Svetlana
    Svetlana 11 November 2015 08: 39 New
    +1
    I always have a desire to simply give such clever people a face, and not to engage in polemics with them and to prove something.
  30. Mercury
    Mercury 11 November 2015 08: 47 New
    +2
    As a single-celled, everything turns out. Since the Maidan of Ukraine, it is customary for us to hate the liberals of those who are for Western customs and ideas. Yes, and I am against this wave of liberalism. But somehow I won’t drive in. Putin didn’t comb himself to the left and did not renounce Orthodoxy, and the Communists, who had always cursed power, suddenly, on the wave of patriotism and the rise of Russia, began to type such people on the blackboard. Vaughn Zyuganov hugs even priests. And here on the forum there is a feeling that there are patriots and they are loyal to the Communists and all the rest are damned liberals. The Communists have a new tactic to use other people's achievements. We would like to do this like Putin. The Communists eat in the blood of Russians and here all in fact and no historical speculation.
    1. dvg79
      dvg79 11 November 2015 13: 31 New
      +2
      On liberals, this blood is orders of magnitude greater, in addition, the communists shed a lot of their own, in the interests of the people, and the liberals always preferred to pour someone else's in their selfish. Any anticommunist, by announcement, is a Russophobe by default.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. kotvov
      kotvov 11 November 2015 17: 42 New
      +2
      The Communists eat in the blood of Russians and everything is in fact and there is no historical speculation. ,, and you count how many deaths on the conscience of shit and liberals in recent history.
  31. maikl50jrij
    maikl50jrij 11 November 2015 08: 47 New
    +3
    "Хуже всего, что он переносит эту мораль в том числе и на современного человека, формируя его милитаристическое отношение к миру и повестке."

    Это слова человека, болеющего идиотизмом. Даже зверь защищает свое логово. Не мы войны начинаем, но мы добиваем агрессора уже в его логове! Так было, так есть и так будет! Всегда! А вся эта вонь (либо передача этой вони) от их бессилия. Да, мы парни простые! Так и по простоте душевной можем так душевно звездануть, что долго потом "хрюкалки" закрыты будут... angry
  32. MATROSKIN-53
    MATROSKIN-53 11 November 2015 08: 56 New
    +1
    Эти приверженцы "вольной истории" обыкновенные Иваны не помнящие родства. Просто хочется плюнуть им всем в рыло и не вести никакой полемики!
  33. Sergey S.
    Sergey S. 11 November 2015 08: 57 New
    +3
    Another unpleasant moment of this discussion is the ease with which the modern man in the street with the ribbon of St. George undertakes to sing the death of his fathers, as if it was the death by order of the command that was the apotheosis of military glory and a wonderful personal realization. Worst of all, he transfers this morality, including to the modern man, forming his militaristic attitude to the world and the agenda.

    Something beyond.
    I don’t understand how the earth wears this geek.
    There is not a drop of politics proper.
    There is a manic desire to condemn the patriotism of our people.
    The reason is clear: once an apple tried to express the interests of a working intelligentsia. Did not work out. Working demagogues and Westerners do not like. Then the apple hoped for money bags. Again failed. The bags parted pocket lots without any brains at all, only with a party task, and scored bad boys there.

    And now mitrokhins strive to demonstrate that they are bad. The competition is serious. They will either set the FSB on fire without fear of a bullet in the forehead, or they will write an abomination about the death of our citizens, or they openly incite to action against the Motherland in the international arena ...

    In my opinion, this bastard must be judged. At least by a friendly court ... and flogging on the square of each city, where citizens can read the above abomination.
    So write down in the sentence: daily public daily spanking with a salt rod.
  34. sevtrash
    sevtrash 11 November 2015 08: 57 New
    0
    It is worth separating one from the other, everything will depend on how you view history, and, in fact, everything. If we consider from the standpoint of the ongoing struggle between the West (USA, etc.) and the East (USSR, Russia), there were or were not some events that did not matter, from the point of view of one side or another, they were / were not based solely on ideological prerequisites (like we are getting better). If they really were and there is evidence for that - all the better, no - well, so what. The winner writes the story, but depending on where, the winners are different, they may be in one institution, in one country / countries, or maybe in most countries. So the truth, one that is not at all true, about the same event can vary greatly in different minds. Within the family, even, or even above all. laughing The most interesting thing is that such a mind may well understand that the truth is, in fact, different, but it will still prove its position, because it is its own and at least profitable for itself. wassat
    And if we are talking about science, then: ... Science is an area of ​​human activity aimed at the development and systematization of objective knowledge about reality. The basis of this activity is the collection of facts ... In the most general sense, a scientific fact is an objective and verifiable observation ...
  35. Stas57
    Stas57 11 November 2015 09: 03 New
    +2
    a few days ago I published a huge article on the Panfilov division, and where is it?
    I did not miss moderation, and then such materials appear here-- a. guard, liberals, help!


    please read an article unpublished here
    http://warspot.ru/4282-na-podstupah-k-moskve
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 11 November 2015 09: 25 New
      +1
      Read it. Very interesting material, although in my opinion fragments are thin. works could be omitted. Did you write this? The rest is great!
      1. Stas57
        Stas57 11 November 2015 10: 14 New
        +1
        no, it was written by xnumx of a large and honest historian
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 11 November 2015 10: 48 New
          +1
          Well, it doesn't matter. In principle, write on archival documents, having thoroughly studied the whole layer of evidence and counter-evidence.
          1. Stas57
            Stas57 11 November 2015 19: 35 New
            0
            which was done, the Topvar editor did not seem interested ...
  36. 31rus
    31rus 11 November 2015 09: 18 New
    +3
    Уважаемые,все намного глубже,отказ и запрет идеологии,отказ от идеологии ,повлек за собой именно "пересмотр"всей идеологической(а это на прямую связанно с патриотизмом)основы,уже Красная Армия грабила и насиловала бедных европейцев,вот откуда заказ,вот откуда сначала "переписать",потом забыть,пример даже в нашей стране много мы знаем о героях Первой ,о героях Афгана,Чечни,Чернобыльцах,вот и почва для "новых открытий"Нужен закон "о историческом наследии",четко прописать ,что такое фальсификация,искажение,умышленное скрытие фактов и наказание,пусть этот "историк"возместит за оскорбление всем родственникам погибшим и государству ,не зависимо гражданин России или другого государства,скажите "инквизиция",а как бороться,если уже фашисты в соседнем государстве "герои"
  37. press officer
    press officer 11 November 2015 09: 31 New
    +3
    Quote: Alexander Romanov
    100 years will pass and historians will be crowded who will say that there was no battle on the Kursk Bulge and there was no Brest Fortress.



    ну может и не 100 лет..а меньше.. Вот товарищч Чубайс старший яро высказывается везде о том, что "Блокады Ленинграда" не было вообще! Это миф! И забывает почему то, что папик ихний (чубайсов) воевал как раз за освобождение Ленинграда...может не тот Ленинград освобождал? Или просто дети тупыми выросли?
    1. Weyland
      Weyland 12 November 2015 01: 56 New
      0
      Quote: press attache
      Or are the kids just dumb grown up?


      Why childrenand not a son? It's just that the family has its black sheep: the brother of the Red Cockroach, EMNIP, a perfectly sane person and the brother can not stand!
  38. Egoza
    Egoza 11 November 2015 09: 39 New
    +2
    Почему то никто из этих "правдоискателей" не хочет уточнить факты, кто писал доносы на людей, чтобы развенчать миф о "сталинских репрессиях". Или этот миф подходит? Или здесь историческая правда не нужна?
  39. Mercury
    Mercury 11 November 2015 09: 48 New
    0
    The truth does not depend on a change of ideology. Stupidly, the truth was hidden as much as they could. I do not need to search for truth in the archives. Our people already knew about the affairs of the Reds. I don’t know what could have happened in Europe in the forties. I know what they did in the civil war in our area, as well as the episode during the liberation of Rostov when one ardent communist reigned herself Zhanna Dark very early revealed our positions and the Germans killed them. This is all from the witnesses from the people who were there. This was spoken only by the most daring and quietly and only to their own.
    If you hide the truth, it will be discovered by children or grandchildren and it will be worse. We must admit mistakes and move on.
  40. Hardy
    Hardy 11 November 2015 09: 58 New
    +4
    I completely share the author’s attitude towards liberals, but ...

    But doesn't it seem strange to you that in almost all the propaganda examples of our heroic past, the main characters are killed? Our monuments are not triumphal arches or symbols of victory, but solid gravestones ... It’s not even clear how they actually won? It turns out that the liberals are right, they overwhelmed with meat?
    It is interesting, since when did this sacrifice begin to be so extolled with us? Is it not from Khrushchevsky, huh? When they joined the world economy, they started selling oil for bucks ... Then all these giant monuments began to be erected, right?

    Ask any person not a historian about the Great Patriotic War? What will immediately remember? The heroic defense of the Brest Fortress, Zoya, Panfilovtsev ...
    А где наши победы? И почему собственно ВОВ, а не Вторая Мировая? Что, победа над Японией это не повод для гордости и вечной памяти? Для вас, типа "патриотов" нет Второй Мировой, есть только ВОВ? Ну тогда будьте последовательны, вверните Курилы.)))) Что, жалко сразу стало? А почему тогда об этих наших победах своим детям не рассказываете? Стесняетесь говорить потому, что это не соответствует навязанной нами западной морали?
    Personally, I am proud of how we destroyed the Japanese army in a matter of days. The first attacked and destroyed. And precisely because of this feat of Soviet soldiers, our allies, or, as is now customary to say, partners, did not then start the third world war against us.
    Вы что, правда не понимаете, откуда эта жертвенность у нас пошла? А "Догоним и перегоним Америку" это хоть помните? Типа не мы уже вроде как победители, не мы первые в космосе, не у нас передовая экономика... Да нам догонять нужно...

    Of course, everything was done quite thinly. When in every family there are those who died in the war, it is easy to play on these feelings ... And at the same time, the inability to control the country will replace pathetics.

    Do you think our country was captured and destroyed in the 90s? Yes, no, it was with Khrushchev that it all started ... He certainly didn’t do it on purpose, as Gorbachev was possible ... Although this is already a slightly different topic ...


    I’m just wondering, with these examples, who do you want to grow from your children? The victim?
    1. 79057330785
      79057330785 11 November 2015 11: 26 New
      0
      I recall history lessons at school:
      Kosmodemyanskaya, Panfilovtsy, Sailors, Gastello, Molodogvardeytsy.-All died.
      But how many people know about the feat of the pilot Devyatayev, who stole Heinkel and took out his captured comrades. Why don't they know about this feat? Is it because the hero instead of awards and honors thundered into the camps.
      1. Insurgent LC
        Insurgent LC 11 November 2015 16: 30 New
        +2
        in Soviet times, there was such a journal, Technique of Youth, so it regularly contained various articles on military subjects, described the deed of Devyatarev called the escape from the island of Usedom and the feat of 30 batteries over the defense of Sevastopol, and much more, more than one was written out of this magazine
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 11 November 2015 22: 39 New
          +1
          He is still there, and not 12, but 14 numbers per year! And everything is printed there too ...
        2. THE_SEAL
          THE_SEAL 12 November 2015 15: 09 New
          +1
          Quote: Insurgent LPR
          in Soviet times, there was such a journal, Technique of Youth, so it regularly contained various articles on military subjects, described the deed of Devyatarev called the escape from the island of Usedom and the feat of 30 batteries over the defense of Sevastopol, and much more, more than one was written out of this magazine

          I wrote out. And in my opinion a lot of people wrote out. But the magazine was interesting precisely in Soviet times. After the 91st year, reading became impossible.
      2. Egevich
        Egevich 11 November 2015 19: 30 New
        +2
        Quote: 79057330785
        I recall history lessons at school:
        Kosmodemyanskaya, Panfilovtsy, Sailors, Gastello, Molodogvardeytsy.-All died.
        But how many people know about the feat of the pilot Devyatayev, who stole Heinkel and took out his captured comrades. Why don't they know about this feat? Is it because the hero instead of awards and honors thundered into the camps.

        who doesn't know something? who can’t read?
        Well, yes, well, for 2 months I was on a special check ...
        ну да, ну да, в 1972 году его книга "Полет к солнцу" была издана тиражом 150 000 экземпляров...
        Please do not hesitate to check the information that you want to convey to the erring and ignorant ...

        at least take a look at the wiki or something ...
      3. Stas57
        Stas57 11 November 2015 19: 38 New
        +1
        But how many people know about the feat of the pilot Devyatayev, who stole Heinkel and took out his captured comrades. Why don't they know about this feat? Is it because the hero instead of awards and honors thundered into the camps.

        In November 1945, Devyatayev was sacked. In 1946, having a diploma of the captain of the vessel, he got a job as a duty officer at the station in the Kazan river port. In 1949 he became the captain of the boat [9], and later one of the first who headed the crews of the very first Russian hydrofoil ships - Rocket and Meteor.
        Mikhail Devyatayev lived in Kazan until his last days. Worked while forces allowed. In the summer of 2002, during the filming of a documentary about him, he arrived at the airport in Peenemuende, lit candles for his comrades and met with the German pilot G. Hobom.

        Grave of Devyatayev at Arskoye cemetery
        Mikhail Devyatayev buried in Kazan
      4. Weyland
        Weyland 12 November 2015 02: 02 New
        +1
        Quote: 79057330785
        Is it because the hero instead of awards and honors thundered into the camps.


        2 months in filtration camp - this is a common practice for those who escaped from captivity: there is always a risk that he was recruited. Unpleasant, humiliating - but necessary - war is war!
        А слухи про полученные им "15 лет лагерей" - это как раз либерастическая пропаганда из серии "миллиард расстрелянных лично Сталиным" laughing
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. crazy_fencer
      crazy_fencer 11 November 2015 11: 43 New
      +1
      No need to dramatize. And then the question immediately arises: what to do with Pokryshkin, Kozhedub, Marinesko, Lunin, and many more who returned from the war alive, and this did not prevent them from remaining famous heroes.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 11 November 2015 13: 37 New
        -1
        And Marinesko to sit in prison for theft ... what did he steal there?
        1. Colonel
          Colonel 11 November 2015 20: 24 New
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          what did he steal there?

          And here they inserted their five cents? He stole nothing. He was too independent and honest. For which they framed.
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 11 November 2015 22: 43 New
            0
            And here, five cents? I read a book about him, a ridiculous sentence to such a hero. And no one interceded, however. And what does too honest mean?
            Too honest to be impossible! You can be either honest or dishonest. You can not be a little pregnant!
            1. Colonel
              Colonel 13 November 2015 19: 38 New
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              You can't be too honest!

              actually written
              He was too independent and honest.
    4. 3axap82
      3axap82 12 November 2015 13: 29 New
      0
      Man, my respect to you. For your thoughts.
      "А заодно заменить патетикой неумение управлять страной."
      Раньше, при Хрущёве это звучало как "Лишь бы не было войны!"
      Сейчас домохозяйки говорят "Хоть и плохо зато бомбы не падают!" Почему они должны падать, и кто может осмелиться их ронять непонятно.
  41. Landwarrior
    Landwarrior 11 November 2015 10: 15 New
    +5
    Myths to debunk gathered? am So at first the order would be put in order in historical science! am When it was necessary to write books on history, professors, scientists were engaged in repetition, earned money, and then when they began to spit on the Rezun exams, they realized it, but it was too late. fool
    Как начали в период Катастройки лить всякие псевдоисторические помои- так и льют, "правдорубы" фиговы am
  42. alstr
    alstr 11 November 2015 10: 30 New
    +4
    Another unpleasant moment of this discussion is the ease with which the modern man in the street with the ribbon of St. George undertakes to sing the death of his fathers, as if it was the death by order of the command that was the apotheosis of military glory and a wonderful personal realization. Worst of all, he transfers this morality, including to the modern man, forming his militaristic attitude to the world and the agenda.


    In fact, this is exactly what you need to educate your children so that they can give their life for the sake of others if necessary. In this case, by order or not - there is not much difference. There is no difference in the names of the heroes. There is no difference in the place and time of the feat. In this case, it doesn’t matter whether the Panfilov’s feat was accomplished in this place or not. In another place, and not at all Pavfilov’s accomplished a similar feat. And how many unknown or little known similar cases? Weight. And not only the initial stage of the war. At the end of the war, there were also enough cases when a small group delayed the Germans' counteroffensive at the cost of their death.

    This is not important. It is important that the description of such cases (albeit not entirely reliable and largely collective) encouraged others to perform their exploits or even simply not to run.

    In this sense, it is very good to recall two songs:
    "На неизвестной высоте" и "От героев былых времён".

    "From the heroes of the old days
    Sometimes there are no names left.
    Those who have taken mortal combat
    They became just earth and grass.
    Only their terrible valor
    Settled in the hearts of the living
    This eternal fire,
    We bequeathed one,
    We keep it in our chest. "


    "Нас оставалось только трое
    Of the eighteen guys.

    How many of them, good friends,
    Lying is left in the dark
    At an unfamiliar settlement
    At an unnamed height.
    At an unfamiliar settlement
    На безымянной высоте."
    1. Weyland
      Weyland 12 November 2015 02: 05 New
      +1
      Quote: alstr
      В этом смысле очень хорошо вспомнить две песни:"На неизвестной высоте" и "От героев былых времён".


      Я бы добавил третью: "У деревни Крюково". Благо, основана на реальных фактах.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  43. afrikanez
    afrikanez 11 November 2015 10: 39 New
    +3
    Интересно, почему на таких вот "историков", до сих пор смотрят сквозь пальцы? recourse
  44. Epifan
    Epifan 11 November 2015 10: 48 New
    +3
    Озабоченные "либералы",а если сказать прямо,пятая колонна и враги народа.В определённый период нашей истории это привело к нехорошим последствиям.А потому учитывая опыт другого периода,гадину нужно давить.Ничего все одно хорошего никто не скажет.Ни "цивилизованная" Европа,ни ни внутренняя тусовка с характерными фамилиями.
  45. crazy_fencer
    crazy_fencer 11 November 2015 11: 40 New
    +4
    The author of the article narrowed the problem somewhat to Zoe Kosmodemyanskaya and 28 Panfilov’s. In fact, the campaign of deliberate slander of military feat during the Great Patriotic War did not begin yesterday, and has a much wider character. They went through all those who for decades have been an example for the younger generation: Marinesco, Gastello, and Alexander Matrosov. Lunin began to interfere with dirt back in the 50s. Rummaging around on the Internet - a lot of things can be found in this regard.
    Автор заслуженно пинает "вольных историков", ссылаясь только на одно конкретное лицо. Не знаю. По-моему страна должна знать своих героев. Кампанию "мифа о 28 панфиловцах" активно раскручивал еще директор Государственного архива Сергей Мироненко. Это ничего так должность. Тщательный и подробный анализ того, как это происходило, можно прочесть здесь: http://niramas.livejournal.com/33993.html
    Зачем? Или, как говорили древние римляне: "Qui prodest?"
    This question is answered in some detail here: http://photonoid.livejournal.com/31668.html
    Я очень рекомендую тем, кто хочет аргументированно бить по головам подобных либеральных "историков", ознакомиться с указанными материалами полностью. Хотя сразу предупреждаю: "Многабукафф", - поэтому привыкшим мыслить рекламными слоганами туда лучше не соваться. Ибо приведенная мною первая публикация состоит из трех частей, вторая - из шести.
  46. Buffalo
    Buffalo 11 November 2015 11: 57 New
    +8
    "Пятая колонна" получила приказ о мобилизации. Железный Шурик(девичья фамилия - Невзоров), содержанка и цепная собака Березовского, заявил, что он перестал быть русским.
    Political prostitute, you have never been Russian, if in your blood - 1/4 Tatar!
    Жванецкий заявил открыто, что мечтает об уничтожении России(до этого берёг невинность!), старый "козёл"!
    How many of them, such, in Russia and neighboring countries are fattening!
    It would be time for such a furnace!
    1. AVATA-ta-R-in
      AVATA-ta-R-in 11 November 2015 13: 47 New
      +2
      Well, I'm Tatar, so what? What is the boundary between you and me?
    2. Weyland
      Weyland 12 November 2015 02: 12 New
      +1
      Quote: Bison
      Political prostitute, you have never been Russian, if in your blood - 1/4 Tatar!


      Sometimes the soul is so hard
      What can hit her nothing can.
      May the wind of death be colder than ice
      He will not disturb the petals of the soul.

      A proud smile shines again with a smile.
      And forgetting the vanity of the world
      Again I want, without knowing the barriers,
      Write, write, write, not tired.

      Let my minutes be numbered
      Let the executioner wait for me and dig a grave,
      I'm ready for anything. But I still need
      The paper is white and black ink!

      The author of these verses is 100% a Tatar named Musa Jalil. Hero of the Soviet Union (posthumous). Guillotined in fascist captivity for participating in an underground organization of prisoners of war.
  47. An64
    An64 11 November 2015 12: 38 New
    +2
    Во все времена историки обслуживали государственную идеологию: в царские - царскую, в советские - советскую, сейчас единоросскую... В этом нет ничего плохого и ничего хорошего - это факт. История умышленно искажается в целях показать "правильность" существующего строя. Это делается у нас, это делается и на западе и на востоке.
    Оперировать только архивными документами и доказанными фактами - это, на мой взгляд, хорошо. Но, к сожалению, не много людей смогут в этом разобраться и выстроить взаимосвязь исторических событий. Поэтому факты "одеваются" в политику и доносятся до нас историками. Сколько в мире идеологий, столько и будет "исторических правд". Ничего с этим не поделаешь.
    1. Hardy
      Hardy 11 November 2015 13: 05 New
      +2
      Quote: An64
      At all times, historians served the state ideology: in the tsarist - tsarist, in the Soviet - Soviet, now United Russia ... There is nothing wrong with that and nothing good is a fact.

      Small clarification. In Soviet times, ideology changed several times. United Russia ideology is very reminiscent of the Soviet era of Khrushchev. When real actions were replaced by populism, propaganda, and eventually led to collapse.
    2. Sober
      Sober 12 November 2015 17: 12 New
      0
      Everyone adjusts the truth for themselves, considering the facts through the prism of their personal hatred of someone or something.
  48. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 11 November 2015 13: 28 New
    +1
    Whatever the case, however liberals and patriots would not howl at each other’s ears and wouldn’t spit in their souls — these are their problems. Everyone who died defending their homeland has the right to truthfully cover their role. Descendants are simply obliged to understand how everything was in reality.
  49. AVATA-ta-R-in
    AVATA-ta-R-in 11 November 2015 13: 45 New
    +8
    in 1999, after a demobilization for the new year, I bought a computer and, accordingly, different games, there was a game there a medal of honor — my deceased grandfather, a veteran of the war (left to be a 43-17-year-old volunteer), learned to play and went through the whole series of games except the last one -Died in 2011. I saw for myself-give him now a real opportunity to shoot at the Germans again, he will forget about the age of the disease, forget about the family and go to fight again - he had at the subconscious level how many times he saw the German, so much and kill. my question is that the grandfather said that he didn’t fight grandfather in response, 27 men and 2 women left the clan for the front — 2 (only my great-grandfather and grandfather) returned and that I (the Nazis) should pray? in order to oppose mitrofanushki and you just need to remember the history of the family — remember not only May 9th about the great-grandfathers of grandfathers — the sons of the grandchildren of the daughters should already be pulled to the museum and the gym — the son was 5 years old — that year went to his relatives in Kursk, were in museums and diramas 4 years was, but still in my head something will be postponed - sorry for the confusion
  50. Rich-ksy
    Rich-ksy 11 November 2015 13: 55 New
    0
    Такие "вольные" историки первыми побегут к супостату, просить "ярлык на княжение"