Military Review

Remington rifle: by countries and continents

As it very often happens, as soon as Remington's rifles saw the light, the imitators appeared: October 17, 1865, TTS, Ladley and S.А. Emery received a patent number 54,743 on the shutter, similar to the closure of Joseph Ryder, but designed to avoid infringement of Ryder patents. In 1870 year armory Whitney in Connecticut bought the Ladley-Emery patent rights and began to produce weapons for this shutter, competing with Remington.

The 1864 carabiner of the year turned out to be a model weapon and was produced for many years. The only improvement in it was that each time, under each order, its bolt was replaced with the corresponding cartridges and, above all, from the round ignition cartridges to the central combat cartridges.

However, it turned out to be more difficult to manufacture, had not three, but four details, but did not give real advantages. The firm failed to interest the United States government, and it lost to Remington in state rifle trials in New York. However, the firm’s rifles were popular in Latin America, where they were supplied chambered for .43 caliber for the Spanish Remington or .50-70 for the US caliber. In production, they remained from 1871 to the end of 1881.

After the Remington-Ryder patents expired, the Whitney company began to copy the Rmington gates in the open, with a total of rifles and carbines released from 50000 to 55000, although it has not yet been documented. However, the company's financial position deteriorated, and in 1888, the entire assets of the company were acquired by the Winchester company. The reason for the purchase is trivial: thus, another competitor was removed from the market, and technical documentation could no longer fall into the hands of potential competitors.

As for the army of the United States themselves, it should be noted that the Remington rifle was not officially accepted into its armament even once and was not officially consisted. Although ... although in fact it does not mean anything!

Remington rifle: by countries and continents

The bolt rifle chambered central combat.

Thus, the Remington carbine ("1867 Marine carbine of the year") in the 1867 year purchased the American fleet, which had a separate from the land department of armaments. First, the Navy ordered 5000 carbines, and then the same number of pistols with a “rolling block” bolt. True, pistols were not as popular as carbines, because at that time there were already a sufficient number of much more efficient revolvers. In service, they were not for long, and already in 1879, 4000 carbines were sold to private traders and thus spread across the states.

The shutter is closed, the trigger is released.

In 1867, in the amount of 498 pieces, the fleet ordered the so-called "cadet rifles" of the same caliber as the carbines for cadets naval schools. In 1870, in addition to carbines, the Navy ordered 10000 M1870 Navy rifles. From the same 1870 to 1872, three modifications of the Reinton rifle were produced for the American army by the Springfield State Arsenal, having received a license from the company. First, 1008 rifles and 314 carbines were produced, and a year later already 10001 rifles. For what? For testing! And they were carried out very intensively, as evidenced by the number of cartridges shot - 89828 pieces in 1872 alone. Of these, there were 2595 misfires, that is, 2.9% of shots. We managed to find out that the maximum rate of fire of the Remington rifle is 21 (!) Rounds per minute, against 19 for the Springfield bolt-action rifle and the Pipody rifle. It would seem a wonderful result, but the company, which has all the rights to the bolt, demanded a price for the rifles that the army did not agree to.

The rifle with the simplest sights. These could deliver to Honduras, Chile, and the Philippines ...

At the same time, as soon as the test results became known, the “walkers” from the states reached out to the company - order rifles for ... the National Guard! In November 1871, the governor of New York ordered 15000 rifles chambered for .50-70 for the State National Guard.

The rifle model was called the New York State Model, and then followed the 1873 order of the year for 4500 rifles and 1500 saddle rifles “with a ring and a clip”. Outwardly, they were distinguished by "blue trunks" (ie, blued steel) and "white parts", that is, polished bolt and trigger. Then the South Carolina militia (caliber .45-70), Texas, and already in 1898, 35 rifles for the Mauser cartridge 7х57 were made for the crew of the Niagara vessel that delivered to Cuba (and the Spanish-American war began a group of journalists from the newspaper New Yorker, which belonged to the father of the yellow press, William Hearst.

Pistol Remington M1866 .50 caliber was offered for free sale.

But if Remington was not very lucky with America, in Europe his rifles were met with open arms. Where? Yes, everywhere! For example, in the same Austro-Hungary, where in 1866, the company Edward Pajea in Vienna began producing rifles chambered for the caliber 11,2-mm and with Verdlya's tactical bayonet. The next country was the armory "Mecca of Europe" - Belgium, where the Remington rifles in 1869 were made by the company ... Nagana! True, not for myself! And for the neighboring powers: 6100 infantry rifles for the Pope’s Guard (the keys of St. Peter are knocked out on the barrel) plus 1700 carbines (1868); 5000 cavalry carbines for the Netherlands and 2250 carbines with bayonets for police and police; 686 rifles for the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg; 15000 for Brazil; 6000 for Greece. However, later the Belgians also released remingtones under the Mauser cartridge 7,65x53 mm and they were called M1910 in their own army.

The cock is cocked, the shutter is open.

In the Danish rifle M1867 / 96 used cartridges central combat caliber 11,35-mm. In total, Denmark received 31500 rifles for infantry and 7040 carbines for cavalry. An interesting feature of the Danish carbines was an additional shop in the butt. It contained 10 cartridges and was closed on top with a hinged lid that represented the top edge of the stock. This model was called "engineering".

In Canada, the Remington carbines were produced for the Montreal police, had a long straight needle bayonet and .43 ammunition of the “Spanish sample” caliber. Interestingly, the axis of the shutter and the trigger on them were fixed on the opposite side with one screw and two-leaf plate.

The cock is cocked, the shutter is closed.

As for France - the country of such powerful weapons traditions, then ... until the end of the Franco-Prussian war, she received a total of 393442 rifles and carbines of all types from Remington, and for different cartridges: Russian Berdanovsky .42 caliber, .43 Egyptian, and .43 Spanish, because during the war the French took everything they could shoot. That is, the contracts of other countries were bought up by the French at an inflated price, since they lacked their own weapons! The French arsenal in Saint-Etienne established the release of remingtones chambered for the caliber 11-mm M / 78 Beaumont, but why this was done for all researchers remains a mystery.

The First World War began, and France, which had an Lebel eight-charge rifle with an 8-mm cartridge, was again forced to order "single-charge" remington for the colonial troops. The caliber was standard - 8-mm, the model was called M1910 and was supplied to the French in 1914 - 1915. They were armed with units in Morocco, Algeria, and French Indo-China.

The French soldiers of the 22 Engineer Regiment are in their amazing sky-blue uniform and carrying Remington 8 rifles. 1915 year.

Greece became another major buyer of remingtones, which made a large order, but received only 9202 rifles. And then the Franco-Prussian war began, France did not have enough of its own weapons, and its government made an offer to Reinton: to buy a Greek order for 15 dollars per piece at a price of 20 dollars! “The power of the straw aches!”, So that the firm could not resist such a “profit” and resold the rifles to the French! As a result, the Greeks were so offended that they did not make the second order!

However, the most interesting thing in Reminton was where? Well, of course in Russia, where else ... One must keep in mind that the company “E. Remington and Sons ”from the very beginning considered Russia as an important potential customer, and tried to open it for its products, but, no matter how hard she tried, luck never came to her. But in the documents of the company 1877, it was noted that "Karl Gunnius was kindly disposed towards the Remington system and did not like the Berdan rifle." He also sent a memorandum to the Minister of War, General Milyutin, urging him to show interest in the Remington rifle. But he was against her and wrote a sarcastic resolution that Russia is not the Papal States or Egypt to buy remingtones, and that he finds it necessary to declare the importance for Russia to develop her own weapon system.

Wait, wait, but perhaps in the books on stories weapons of the Soviet era is not written that it Gorlov and Gunius just "paved the way" in Russia rifle Berdan? Here it is the text that I already forgot where I took it, but the fact that it was printed here is undoubtedly: “In Russia, the transition to a smaller caliber of the 4,2 line occurred on the 1868 year. Shortly before this, the War Department had sent officers A. Gorlov and K. Gunius to the United States. They had to sort out all the abundance of small arms systems, ... and select the best for the Russian army. After careful study, Gorlov and Gunius chose a rifle developed by Colonel X. Berdan of the American Army. However, before transferring it to service and recommending it for mass production, both envoys made improvements to the 25 design. As a result, the rifle has changed so much that it almost lost its similarity with the prototype, and the Americans themselves called it “Russian”. After successful tests, the Russians ordered the Colt plant in Hartford with at least 30 thousand rifles adopted to arm rifle battalions. ”

But in fact, everything was wrong, or rather not quite so! The same Gunnius, it turns out, did not sympathize with the Hiram Berdan system, but tried to advance the Remington rifle into the arsenal of the Russian army! And, it turns out, this is our military minister and the “royal satrap” Milyutin insisted on adopting the Berdan-2 rifle with a sliding bolt, and Gorlov and Gunnius just did what they were ordered from above! And after all the true minister made the decision! Because the Remington shutter, although it was good and fairly simple, nevertheless had one serious drawback - it was not suitable for installing a magazine on it, while magazine rifles began to appear. That is, our Minister of War turned out to be so far-sighted that even then he understood it, and was not at all some kind of stupid courtier the kind of royal ministers we were supposed to portray at the time of these! How does it know? Here's where it came from: from the study of George Lauman, Remington's largest rifle specialist in the United States, the author of a serious study published in 2010. Moreover, the discovery of this does not imply anything in our history, so there was no meaning for him to invent this, and the relevant documents were also preserved.

Filipino insurgents 1899 of the year with Remington rifles in their hands.

It was already noted above that during the First World War, when there was a great shortage of weapons to the warring powers, France purchased Remington rifles to arm their second-line soldiers, and their service life turned out to be surprisingly long. But the most interesting thing is that a batch of Remington M1902 rifles (that is, those released in 1902), and made for the Russian cartridge 7,62x54 mm, was also purchased by Russia, and even earlier, namely during the Russian-Japanese war! It was difficult to say whether they were used or not at the time, but some samples from this lot are now appearing on the market for collection weapons. Then, already from the USSR, these rifles were for some reason sent, where would you think? To Spain, in 1936, as a military aid to the Republicans. In total, in October 1936, 23350 rifles were supplied, which were recorded in the consignment notes as “foreign old rifles”. And what "foreign old rifles" could come from Russia? Only Remington, of course. By the way, then they were captured as trophies by nationalists and demonstrated at the exhibition of captured weapons in August 1938! Why Stalin did just that, “flooding” military rubbish to Republicans, is unclear. That is, it is clear that in this way a part of the warehouses was cleared of the old, but generally useful weapons that had accumulated there, and besides, the USSR also received Spanish gold for them. But was it such a good advertisement for us? Or did he initially not believe in the victory of the Republicans, where the main rulers were still not the Communists, but the Social Democrats who were not so loved by them, who knows ?!

Private and officer of the Philippine Republican Army. In the hands of the ordinary carbine "Remington".

As for Spain itself, they tested Remington, Peabody and Shaspo rifles there in 1868. Won Remington, and the Spaniards ordered 10000 rifles for a Spanish .43 caliber cartridge. Then came the second contract for 50000 and the third for 30000 rifles already in 1873. Moreover, the third order was received simultaneously with the second due to the "business activity" of the defeated French! Well, and then the Spaniards themselves established the release of remingtones under license and sold their products to the countries of Latin America.

The Remington M1867 rifles of the year and the M1870 carbines of the year were in service with the armies of Sweden, Norway and Switzerland. In general, the list of countries that had Remington rifles in their arsenals is extremely extensive. Among them: Egypt and Sudan, Ethiopia and Morocco, Persia, Turkey, Yemen, Israel (!), Where they were used in the 1948 year, followed by Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Honduras, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba and Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, French Guiana, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, Jamaica, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Trinidad, Uruguay, Venezuela, Cambodia, China, Japan, Philippines and even New Zealand !

Well, and then they instantly sunk into oblivion. It is impossible to attach a store, although the system itself is exhaustively perfect!
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  1. D-Master
    D-Master 5 November 2015 06: 42
    A gorgeous, exhaustively perfect article. The author low bow for material of such quality. What about the rifle. The perfect shutter was perfected and was a model of reliability. But all that is perfect and most reliable carries one flaw - the lack of the ability to change, since the perfect cannot be improved. ))) So these beautiful rifles were ordered to live long with the advent of magazine rifles. It’s a pity, but nothing can be done about it.
    Author please review the Berdan rifle, or rather the Russian rifle. I'd like to read the material in your presentation.
    1. kalibr
      5 November 2015 07: 31
      Thank you for appreciating my work. And the "Berdanka" is also interesting to me, but ... I already wrote that all the articles "about weapons" will only be about those samples that I held in my hands. I have a friend who collects weapons. With his kind permission, I go to him and "hold on." He doesn't have a Berdanka! While. Now, if you buy it, we'll gut it together!
  2. Max repp
    Max repp 5 November 2015 09: 43
    Great article. I read it with pleasure.
  3. Grigorievich
    Grigorievich 5 November 2015 10: 32
    good There is nothing more to say. Neither add nor decrease an exhaustive overview of this rifle.
  4. Robert Nevsky
    Robert Nevsky 5 November 2015 10: 45
    Very interesting article!
  5. _KM_
    _KM_ 5 November 2015 11: 26
    Great article: informative and beautifully illustrated!
  6. Chukcha
    Chukcha 5 November 2015 13: 21
    Excellent article!
    I just don’t understand how the cartridge was inserted into the barrel?
    In the photo with an open shutter, there is absolutely no space where you can shove it.
    1. kalibr
      5 November 2015 15: 42
      So after all the protrusion under the finger on the right is set aside! This photo is not visible. But allotted. And there is enough space! Take and paste!
  7. _KM_
    _KM_ 5 November 2015 15: 28
    Quote: Chukcha
    I just don’t understand how the cartridge was inserted into the barrel?

    If I’m not mistaken, then from behind from above.
    1. kalibr
      5 November 2015 15: 43
      Yes, from above he goes there well!
  8. gross kaput
    gross kaput 5 November 2015 16: 22
    And what “foreign old rifles" could come from Russia? Only ringtones, of course.Well, as it were, for some the question might be solved, but for those who are really on the subject, it could be Winchesters from the three hundred thousandth royal order M1895 under 7,62X54 (which by the way are still found among hunters in Siberia) and Japanese arisaki (300 delivered 000) and French Lebel and other trophy Mausers, Manlicher and Enfield. Now sho regards Russia also purchased a batch of Remington M1902 rifles (that is, released in 1902), and made under the Russian cartridge 7,62x54 mm, and even earlier, namely during the Russo-Japanese War!What a surprise, we open the official STANDARD CATALOG OF REMINGTON FIREARMS catalog and look for the rifle to which the author refers - the Remington-Rider Model 1902 Military Rolling Block Rifle was made in 6mm USN, .30-40, .303, 7x57mm or 7.65mm Mauser calibers they weren’t under domestic patronage, and there is no information on the purchase of remingtones for the Russian army, although the remingtones themselves came to the Republic of Ingushetia, only as hunting but not as army ones. Although Remington herself supplied weapons to the army of the Republic of Ingushetia, it was already during WWI, and not single-shot rolling blocks were delivered, but on the order of the tsarist government, Remington made Mosin rifles.
    But in reality, everything was not so, or rather, not quite so! The same Hunnius, it turns out, did not sympathize with the Hiram Berdan system at all, but tried to promote the Remington rifle into the arsenal of the Russian army! And it turns out that this is our Minister of War and the “royal satrap” Milyutin insisted on adopting the Berdan-2 rifle with a sliding bolt, and in the end Gorlov and Hunnius simply did what they were ordered from above! And the faithful minister made a decision! Because Remington’s bolt, although it was good and simple enough, it nevertheless had one serious drawback - it was not suitable for installing a magazine on it, while magazine rifles had already begun to appear. That is, our Minister of War turned out to be so far-sighted that even then he understood it, and was not at all such a stupid courtier, like the tsar’s ministers it was customary for us to portray at that time! How is this known? And here it comes: from a study by George Lauman, the largest US specialist in rifles Remington, the author of a serious study published in 2010. Without a doubt, the indicated American has access to all historical documents of the artillery committee for that period and is true in the last resort laughing
    But seriously the horse people mixed up in a bunch, we open the article of Alexander LOVI, professor of the Academy of Artillery Sciences, and it turns out that it was not Gunius but Gorlov who protested against Berdan No. 2, and it was not a rhyme of a remington with a hinged bolt and a rifle of Henry Martini.
    PS in general, the level corresponds to the previous material - when a person calls the Remington shutter a crane, its level is immediately clear.
    1. kalibr
      5 November 2015 17: 02
      As you yourself understand, I did not invent all this myself. There is such an authoritative person, George Lauman. He has a book: Remington Rolling Block Milutary Rifles of the World / 2010 /. And there all this is written in black and white, pp. 105-108. There are markings and everything ... Read it for yourself ... And imagine this is a very authoritative specialist. Are you a specialist of his level? You have articles on this topic published in authoritative publications, monographs, right? So "sho with regards to the topic", then ... yes, there are questions, but again this is for Lauman. By the way, a little about him. His monograph contains references to both published and unpublished sources. He began collecting remingtones ... at the age of 12. He worked in the US Army as a military translator. Speaks Japanese, Chinese, Korean, German, Hungarian, Swedish, Spanish and Portuguese. He worked in these countries and collected remington everywhere. Well, the salary allowed. has over 1100 publications on the history of weapons and, of course, Remington. In 2003 he conducted a cycle on the Discovery Channel, which means that doubting his competence is at least ridiculous. But everything is permissible for our man: Americans are bad! So would you like to deepen it, please! It is wonderful to "bring to light" the detractor of Russia. But will it come out? And by the way, why did you not like the name crane valve?
      1. shishkin7676
        shishkin7676 17 November 2015 11: 44
        Respected! I am not an expert in weapons, but the question has long been occupied with the question of why there were no weapons according to the scheme of the recent grenade launcher, when the barrel, after firing forward, throws out the cartridge case, then back and "puts on" the cartridge, well, a very obvious scheme.
  9. moskowit
    moskowit 5 November 2015 18: 15
    Thanks! Author, you are an enthusiastic person. Your eyes are burning. I subscribe to the request for a story about the "Russian rifle" Berdan-2. In childhood and adolescence, the name "Berdanka" was associated with some kind of frivolous weapon. Then, when I read the book by German Nagaev "Russian gunsmiths", which mentioned Gorlov and Konovalov and Berdan's rifle and the first and second. And a brief history of their adoption by the Russian Army.
    1. kalibr
      5 November 2015 20: 16
      To fulfill your request, you will have to order a book in the USA, but why not? Just have to wait ...
  10. gross kaput
    gross kaput 5 November 2015 18: 32
    Quote: kalibr
    he has a book: Remington Rolling Block Milutary Rifles of the World / 2010 /.

    Do you have it? well, lay out a scan of these pages will be interesting to take a look at, but in general, American monographs have one feature - collectors write and if everything is top-notch with the description of iron then they usually don’t really like history - they don’t like rummaging through archives, so that once again I repeat the rimmington rifles in the Republic of Ingushetia fell in commodity quantities and in different calibers, including under the Mosin cartridge, but it’s not strange about the order during the Russo-Japanese War M1902 for the army of the Republic of Ingushetia for some reason neither our researchers working in no archives Ki firms remington do not know - is not it strange? and taking into account the fact that weapons hunger appeared much later - already during the WWII the very thought of such an order is absolutely not logical.
    Quote: kalibr
    Are you a specialist of his level?

    I don't know what your "his" level is, but I clearly see yours, and let's just say for me he is absolutely not authoritative.
    Quote: kalibr
    And by the way, why didn’t the crane shutter name please you?

    One more confirmation of your level - a crane lock and a folding two different systems.
    1. kalibr
      5 November 2015 20: 05
      You know little to say loudly I AM A SPECIALIST! This is proved not by scans from other people's books, but by official recognition. I have it both in Russia and abroad. But I see your level very well. You cite a scan from the book as proof of your innocence. So? P. 68. I never prove anything to anyone in principle, let alone give scans - I gave you the page numbers in Laumann's book, that's more than enough. Yes, I have a book, but is there something to scan, humiliate myself in front of someone whom I do not know? Fi! And about the crane shutter, I can also refer to the book and again I will not give a scan - just a page. Page 344 - V.E. Markevich. Hand firearms. It says there is a "crane construction" shutter. And then - the same scheme as yours, only turned in the other direction - p. 345. If except for "sho" with the Russian everything is in order, then the answer will be the same - the gate of the crane structure is the Crane gate. You believe your source more, I am V.E. Markevich.
      Your opinion is against mine - that's all! I think, I am even sure that VO readers themselves will figure out who understands this issue better. But you obviously did not read Markevich, although according to your words you have been doing 25 weapons for years. And in vain ...
      Yes, about the level of Lauman, I wrote to you above. Take an interest.
      And the last: "they do not like to rummage in the archives" ... Do you know that for sure? Where from? You worked with them, right? Do you know the requirements of their publishers, were published "there"?
  11. _KM_
    _KM_ 5 November 2015 22: 38
    Quote: kalibr
    Do you know the requirements of their publishers, were published "there"?

    Nothing personal. But I know the requirements of both them and our publishers. No one will dig and check the author now. Especially if he is famous. Their authors are not really friends with history. And the story with the geography of Russia is generally a dark forest for them. At one time he was translating one very authoritative foreign publication (non-weapons). Everything related to the West was described there wonderfully. But when it came to the Russian Federation, a dream of reason began.

    And further. When a person writes that

    Quote: kalibr
    Yes, I have a book, but is there something to scan, to humiliate before someone I don’t know? Phi!

    then, to put it mildly, it leaves a strange impression. If there is an argument in a scientific dispute, then it is brought up, and not written - I will answer that, but I do not want to humiliate myself ...
    1. kalibr
      6 November 2015 06: 51
      We have no scientific argument! In a scientific dispute, people present themselves to each other, and erysipelas do not draw. Ask questions. If you have read carefully. A man knows one thing, and does not know another, but demands a third from me. So let him work. Will find, scans ...
      Plus Laumann doesn't write about our history. All his information is from the other side. But I know a thing or two about translators. Nicolas and I published a book in England "Russian armies 1250-1500". And its translation was made by AST publishing house with comments. And the translator in them began to reproach us for not knowing the history of Russia, but he himself did not know it and did not make ends meet. Now I have this ridiculous book in my closet!

      By the way, this "they do not like to rummage in archives" ... Do you know that for sure? Where from? You worked with them, right? Do you know the requirements of their publishers, were published "there"? It was not for you, but for the "gross".
  12. gross kaput
    gross kaput 5 November 2015 23: 03
    Quote: kalibr
    To fulfill your request you have to order a book in the USA, but why not?

    Quote: kalibr
    Yes, I have a book, but is there something to scan, to humiliate before someone I don’t know?

    Where is the truth here? Do you have a book or need to order? Apparently not and never was. laughing
    Quote: kalibr
    and again I won’t give a scan - just a page. Page 344 - V.E. Markevich.

    Yes, do not give a clear stump, because you do not have this book - since it was reprinted here in 2005 in St. Petersburg by the publishing house "Polygon" and Rem's description in it on pages 207-208 laughing As for Markevich - even though he dealt with iron for a long time and knows the device of many samples thoroughly, the lack of specialized education affects - in terminology he gets confused (which, in principle, for those years was forgivable, then often in the descriptions of pistols P 08 or S-96 it is possible it was possible to meet such pearls as "a pistol acting by recoil") if you continue to read the description of the same rem, you can stumble upon such a thing "The bolt with its lower part acts on the ejector, which throws the cartridge case out of the chamber" - nothing hurts the ear in this phrase ? And if we had not limited ourselves only to this book of Markevich, then from others they could have learned that it turns out that the shutter is swinging.
    Quote: kalibr
    And then - the same scheme as yours,

    Only here the scheme is not with me, but with Major General Fedorov laughing Have you heard about this?
    Quote: kalibr
    I have it both in Russia and abroad.

    Yes, really ?! Could you share links to your scientific works? Or maybe what articles are serious based on previously unknown archival data or with a description of previously unknown designs of firearms? You will forgive, but unfortunately the history of shooters is not a history of politics and "alternative" versions involved in conspiracy theories and fantasies do not go there, and your fertility with a rate of fire of 1-2 articles a day makes you think about their quality.
    Fedoseev, Chumak, Monetchikov, Popenker, Shiryaev, Dragunov and many more competent specialists rummaging in archives and museums, visiting exhibitions, production facilities and polygons are really famous modern authors writing about shooters, who in this area can really claim that their names are known to amateurs and experts firearms that we have that abroad, but the name Shpakovsky, oddly enough, is not known among the "gunsmiths" - isn't it strange?
    1. kalibr
      6 November 2015 07: 03
      You seem to be in a hurry to get somewhere and read inattentively. And the man asked me to write about the BERDAN rifle. I have no book on it! There is a book by Laumann. No need to judge by everything how you do it, Sergei, just read carefully. I have a 1994 edition of Markevich's book, so the pages may not coincide. That is, the grinning face does not roll here. About terminology. Fedorova suits you. Me Markevich. That's all. About the bouquet of names that you brought. I am familiar with Semyon Fedoseev, not with others. So what? They have their own topic, I have my own. About weapons, I do not have articles with links to archives, but there are others, there are many of them. Including in the VAK magazine "Voprosy istorii". Everything is on the Web. Fertility ... yes, according to the article, this is the norm. But ... when you have 35 books, you can afford it. You take a chapter and ... I have no books on alternative history. There are "Tanks unique and paradoxical", but this is not an alternative in its purest form. What do you personally have?
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 6 November 2015 12: 28
        Quote: kalibr
        You are satisfied with Fedorov. Me Markevich.

        There is only one tiny nyansik - when Markeaich wrote his book of established terminology, there was still no established terminology, even after reading Fedorov’s works of that period, you can be surprised to find out that he owns his own product — a machine gun of 1916 calls it an automatic machine, then an automatic rifle, or a machine gun. In the future (late 30s and early 50s), weapon terminology was systematized and brought to a common denominator primarily thanks to Fedorov, and at the moment this classification is generally accepted, including for official examinations and descriptions of firearms - Example excerpt from the training manual for forensic experts on the ball. examinations
        - leaning up and down (Wenzel rifle 1866, Berdan №1 1868);
        - tilting up-right or left (Snyder rifle 1866, Krnka 1869, respectively);
        - crane shutter, which is a cylinder with a longitudinal cut, rotating around an axis parallel to the barrel (Verndl rifle 1873);
        - swinging bolt (the front part is lowered and access to the chamber is opened - Peabody rifle 1860, sports pistols MTs-55-1, TOZ-35)

        In this particular case, the statement that "you believe Markevich" is simply a confirmation that you have not read anything else with a firearm.
    2. kalibr
      6 November 2015 08: 12
      By the way, the scheme for Major General Fedorov is not his. It is taken from the book by Greenner (WW Greener) “The Gun and its Development”, published at the end of the 19 century.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 6 November 2015 10: 28
        Quote: kalibr
        By the way, Major General Fedorov’s scheme is not his.

        Is this something seriously changing what made you write a separate post?
        Quote: kalibr
        I have no books on an alternative story.

        And this is not your work - "If Hitler took Moscow"?
        1. kalibr
          6 November 2015 18: 35
          This is a novel, not a historical study. Do not you know the difference?
  13. gross kaput
    gross kaput 5 November 2015 23: 46
    Well, let's return to our sheep - so what about the supply of M-1902 Remov during the Russian-Japanese war? As I understand it, since you "don't want to be humiliated" with scans, can this moment be considered the author's fantasy? As, indeed, with the supply of Rem to Spain - for the author makes his assumptions that some "obsolete foreign rifles" were exactly the rem from two key points: 1 - from the alleged delivery of them to RI in 1904-05
    2 - the author simply does not know about the huge number of foreign rifles delivered to the Republic of Ingushetia already during the WWII - we will educate the United States - Winchester m 1895 - 300 0000, France - Gra-Kropachek - 80 000, Gra - 480 000, Lebel 39 000, delivered Arisak 60 from the UK and 000 from Japan, Italy - Vetterly 200. So any of these samples can be hidden under obsolete foreign ones, and after the defeat of the Republicans, there were only reminiscents that were exclusively Spanish in the exhibition of captured weapons.
    PS In general, the article leaves a double impression: the first one is clear which one, and the second one with an inexperienced person has the impression that remingtones were almost the most common rifles in the world, you just need to take into account that despite a large number of orders, they are issued for each individual the order rarely exceeded 15, so that it would be understandable how small it is, for example, the Republic of Ingushetia’s army during WWII could be brought in to compensate for the losses and armament of the new units of the Russian army each month 000 screw .
    1. kalibr
      6 November 2015 07: 22
      Finally, at least something without a face. I repeat that everything about what is written in the article is taken from the book of Lauman, a very authoritative person. What I wrote to you. I pointed pages. This is not enough for you, but you will have to be content with it. Why? But why. If I, Sergey, were just asked what and how, without silly faces and accusations, I would answer you. Introduced, as is customary between normal people. So I know who I'm dealing with. And is it worth, yes? For it is said: Do not tag beads before swine. But you have chosen a different path. Well, my full right to do as I see fit. On the supply of rifles to Russia, believe me, I also know that rifles were bought for Russia in Japan too. But in this case, again, the information was taken from Lauman and I trust her. You are Fedorov, I am Lauman. He worked with their historians, I know about their attitude to facts and information.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 6 November 2015 11: 32
        Quote: kalibr
        This is not enough for you, but you have to be content with it. Why? And here is why. If I, Sergey, were simply asked what and how, without stupid faces and accusations, I would answer you.

        Let's just say that you posted an article containing previously unknown / controversial information on a shared resource, for a general reading, respectively, and should have been prepared for the fact that you would be asked uncomfortable questions and you would have to prove your point. Based on this, there can be only two options:
        1 - You yourself understand the inferiority of your source or you simply fantasized and therefore you cannot reasonably prove your case.
        Quote: kalibr
        And is it worth it? For it is said: Do not mark the beads before the pigs.
        Those. just suffer from delusions of grandeur and consider visitors V.O. cattle who are obliged to eat any information and at the same time also admire your genius, well then this is the usual megalomania.
        Although one does not exclude the other.
        Moreover, from my point of view, such behavior is strange for a person who positions himself as a historian - an example from life in 2008. in the PGBA a round table was held dedicated to the 70th anniversary of the events on Khasan, despite the fact that there were no random people there, my report on the unprecedented high ratio of irrecoverable / sanitary losses of the Red Army with an analysis of the causes of this phenomenon, and high losses in particular, caused a violent negative reaction at the stumps from BMC MO - the answer was extremely simple - it was simply offered to all those who had complaints about the quality of the report to study the archival documents that were literally behind the wall, especially since there was no need to look for individual papers in the funds - a selection was made for this event, As a result, the grandfathers had no choice but to quietly complain that they gave me a trinket for the "difference in search" from the VIC for the 55th anniversary of the Victory. The moral of these stories is simple - you tell some unknown or controversial fact - be ready to prove it with real evidence "in the circles to which I am close" C / F "Shirley-Myrli" it is customary to do this.
        1. kalibr
          6 November 2015 18: 46
          I am glad for you that you write such serious reports. But ... here are published articles of non-fiction, that is, not providing links to sources, the second - the burden of proof lies according to the law on who accuses. On the accused is always the presumption of innocence. I wrote to you that the article is based on the book Markevich 1994 of the year and the book of Lauman. Until now, it has not been proven anywhere that my work contains fiction, which means why I decided to start with this article? And I would be able to explain everything to you in detail and explain, and even send a scan, if they had otherwise built their communication with them. I don’t accept such a tone from anyone. You may have noticed that I respond to normal questions very patiently. But rudeness and vulgarity, I can not stand. You can write whatever you like about the inferiority of the source and so on. The answer is that the dogs bark and the caravan moves on!
  14. Mihalich17
    Mihalich17 6 November 2015 10: 09
    Here is the ARTICLE !!!
    Role Model!
    With GREAT interest I "plunged" into history, thanks to the undoubtedly talented author of this article !!!
    Thank you!
  15. gross kaput
    gross kaput 6 November 2015 20: 07
    Quote: kalibr
    popular science articles are published here, that is, those that do not provide links to sources,

    Come on?! did you read this at Markevich? laughing
    Quote: kalibr
    second, the burden of proof is legally on whoever is blaming.

    Well, you know, are we not in court, and strangely enough in historical research, everything is exactly the opposite - you need to prove the event, otherwise you will reach the supply of Martian blasters to the troops of Alexander Nevsky at such a pace - and in this situation, the option is a win-win - prove that this was not, and if you can’t, it was. laughing
    Quote: kalibr
    The answer is - the dogs bark, but the caravan is coming!

    Yes, no doubt, because creating such articles is your bread and shooting 1-2 articles a day, without days off, but raising the educational level is simply not enough time, so I think that in the future we will have many more facts that were previously unknown to anyone, and possibly even auto RU. laughing
    1. kalibr
      7 November 2015 08: 44
      You can write whatever your heart desires, but my rule is to play only by your own rules, and you are a person of the wrong caliber, so that I can change them for you!
  16. gross kaput
    gross kaput 8 November 2015 23: 02
    Quote: kalibr
    and you are a man of the wrong caliber to me to change them for you!

    Well, I’ve already got acquainted with your caliber - the most appropriate definition would be 7X3 laughing
    But seriously, something I’ve thought about, maybe it’s really a person who writes serious books at a professional level, and therefore all these
    Quote: kalibr
    but my rule is to play only by my own rules

    just a habit already? I decided to look - since I'm not strong in cold weather and armor, let me think I'll see what he writes in "Paradoxical Tanks", nevertheless I understand a little in BTT and at least I can estimate the level of the book.
    I leafed through, appreciated - the level of submission of the material is designed for the initial level of the reader - which is not bad in principle - different books are needed, different books are important laughing including those not overloaded with unnecessary ones. details.
    But while the author is tearing down the descriptions of tanks from other books, everything is fine (there are, of course, small mistakes but without them), but as soon as he begins to share his highly scientific conclusions, a full out begins - in order not to be unfounded, this is how our author describes the T-34 security On the other hand, the creators of the T-34 tank, which had its shortcomings in armor, should borrow from the HF the horizontal position of the driver’s hatch on the upper armor plate of the hull, which would guarantee its complete invulnerability. To do this, it would be quite enough to slightly decrease the slope of the front armor plate, and push the turret quite a bit back. - What immediately gives out in the writer either an amateur or a provocateur - I will explain for those who are far from the BTT - in order to move the T-34 turret back, at a distance sufficient to accommodate the mechanical water hatch, a complete re-arrangement of the entire tank was required, or a serious increase in its length , and this was really done only on the T-44 - which received a longitudinal engine placement and a torsion bar suspension, as a result, with approximately the same dimensions, it was possible to move the fighting compartment back - but it was already a completely different tank. In general, this whole, so to speak, "book" is imbued with one idea that domestic tank building is either a monkey borrowing of foreign ideas or absolutely stupid and flawed tanks - in general, an extremely disgusting creation, and besides, written by an amateur. So I was finally convinced that I was dealing with a hack and a "koekaker".
  17. _KM_
    _KM_ 9 November 2015 11: 02
    The author of the books is not a techie, but a humanist. He read somewhere that if you move the hatch ... and without hesitation retold. He either ignored the fact that this was either a complete rearrangement of the tank or a significant increase in the load on the overloaded front rollers or did not understand the scale of the problem.

    In such a situation, it is more logical to behave more restrained, rather than talk about how much he published.

    Moreover, AST is not an example of a serious scientific publishing house. Many books go to print with them, which is called "off the wheels" (in the author's edition). Those. directly from the author or translator. At one time, a huge number of blunders in science fiction published by AST were discussed on the network.

    Those. Of course, such books are needed, but they should not be considered scientific works. No offense, but it's cheap consumer goods. Like everything published by AST.
  18. vonWolfenstein
    vonWolfenstein 26 November 2015 21: 25
    Thanks a lot to the author! We are waiting for the same informative and easily read articles.