Military Review

I do not want to be an air carrier or a couple of words to domestic aviation officials

539
About two years ago I already performed with similar material. It is clear that this did not bring any result, but repetition is sometimes necessary. Especially in light of what is happening.



We have obvious problems in the air. And, unfortunately, not only in the military, but also in civil terms. One of our readers rightly remarked that if "Tu" had fallen, then there would have been a cry on the subject that we were flying to old ones. So raised. And the "carcass" was removed from the airline.

But instead of a normal program for the development of the domestic aircraft industry, for some reason, they rushed to buy Boeings and Airbuses. Naturally, used. Let's look at our Aeroflot for an example.

The first digit shows how many aircraft are in operation, the second - how many are ordered.

Airbus A319-100 - 4 / 0
Airbus A320-200 - 63 / 14
Airbus A321-200 - 26 / 8
Airbus A330-200 - 5 / 0
Airbus A330-300 - 17 / 0
Airbus A350-800 - 0 / 4
Airbus A350-900 - 0 / 18
Boeing 737-800-12- 17/0
Boeing 737-900ER- 0 / 15
Boeing 777-300ER- 13-3
Sukhoi Superjet 100 - 21 / 29
Irkut MC-21 - 0 / 50

Total 161 aircraft, of which domestic 21. Ordered 158, domestic 79. A bit better.

But this is Aeroflot. They started with him, they need to continue.

The problem is in our aviationrather, not even in airplanes, but in the organization of civil aviation in Russia.

When the Soviet Union was gone, the single Aeroflot was divided, by Primitisation, into dozens, if not hundreds, of airlines. It seems that everything should be like in the enlightened West, competition and everything else. But no one thought at the time whether these companies would be capable.

Our readers, who with the sky "on you", I think, will not be strongly against my opinion. Its essence is that the airline (if it is) is obliged not only to sell tickets and pay for fuel and services of dispatchers, but also to train specialists: pilots, engineers, technicians. That is, take care of the trouble-free operation of its equipment. On time and efficiently maintain and repair it. Improve repair and service bases.

And most importantly, in time to update the fleet.

With the destruction of civil aviation, aviation civil aircraft construction collapsed, and aircraft factories and design offices closed. Our VASO, a huge aircraft manufacturing plant, is in a state of "rather dead than alive."

In general, everything that happens reminds of a Soviet-era anecdote, when a grocery store asks a saleswoman if there is black caviar. She says no, because no one asks her.

So it is with our civil aircraft. Indeed, why deal with the Balashikha plant about the UG151 unit for IL-96? We will ban its operation, and buy new Boeing and Airbus. Who can. Thin reservation.

We have dozens of small carriers in our country, such as the airline Kogalymavia, whose plane crashed in Egypt, having up to 10 aircraft. And what? Journalists have already extracted the entire track record of this "Airbus". The A321 aircraft with the 663 tail number was released 18 a half years ago, and was operated by several foreign companies, including Malaysian Airlines, before entering Russia. And already had an accident in the same Cairo.

Can these pseudo carriers afford to buy new planes? We see the answer on the example of "Kogalymavia". Tragic example. But maybe, at least he will make our aviation officials think.

It is necessary to stop with a large variety of air carriers in Russia, ideally return to one state-owned airline, which Aeroflot has been for many years. Did the whole Union fly Aeroflot airplanes? And then let Russia fly. Enough to produce incomprehensible "low-cost airlines" and other figures from aviation.

The security of Russian citizens must be ensured at the state level. Now, of course, the relatives of the victims will be compensated. Will they help them a lot? Compensation is good, I agree, but isn't it better to compensate in advance the possibility of the need to pay compensation? Highlighting, for example, money for new aircraft.

Speaking of new aircraft. The question arises, why do our aviation guardians hate our aircraft builders so much? Why is it so easy to give up ours in favor of foreign? Is A320 so younger and more perfect than the IL-96 that the use of Ela is not at all? So it seems to be IL-96, even younger will be like a model. And none of my friends who flew on it said a word about the fact that there is no comfort. On the contrary.

Mr. Khristenko, the former Minister of Industry in 2009, decided to discontinue the Il-96-300 passenger aircraft, since the liner "not able to compete with the latest long-haul passenger aircraft of the companies Boeing and Airbus". Mr. Khristenko is no longer in the ministry, but the situation remains the same.

In general, nothing but another betrayal of national interests, I would not describe it.

Mr. Khristenko needed some kind of competition there. And so he with one stroke of the pen sentenced several factories building airplanes. And at the same time, a certain number of people in Russia who will break up in ancient aircraft.

Result: VASO, where the "Elah" was produced, is worth American workers in Detroit get paid, and I, as a potential client of the airline, have to risk my life in a twenty-four-year-old Boeing or Airbus, with tail baked after the accident and other amenities. Well, thanks.

Actually, after an emergency landing at Pulkovo, the flight Rostov-on-Don - Kaliningrad in 2003 on a Boeing-737, you can't drag me into a plane (especially Boeing, especially an ancient one). And my three friends, whom I picked up from Lipetsk, because the Saab flight from St. Petersburg - Voronezh to Voronezh clearly did not reach. And flopped in Lipetsk. Successfully, at least, thanks to the pilots.

The question arises: is the new IL uncompetitive compared to Boeing, which is slightly less years old than me? It is quite competitive. Because new.

The president talked a lot about import substitution. How about the necessary details of the development of the country in a crisis. Isn't it time to seriously think about the import substitution of used foreign aircraft to domestic ones? At VASO, paradoxically, for serial production of "IL-96-300" is everything. And machines, and tooling, and, most importantly, people. They have not fled yet, although many were called to Samara and to Ulyanovsk. They get mere pennies, but they don’t run away anywhere, because apart from collecting planes, they are no longer taught anything.

In addition, for all history the use of IL-96 was registered only one emergency when the Aeroflot plane burned down. For an unknown reason, in the parking lot. No casualties. Yes, all 28 aircraft were released, but this is still an indicator. Cubans, by the way, exploit the "IL-96" and do not cry. And Putin, by the way, too.

And the history of the use of the predecessor, "IL-86", which was made more than a hundred, is also remarkable. For 21 year of operation of the entire 4 PE. In which 22 (twenty-two) people died. In three, moreover, the fault was the gross mistakes of the crew, in the fourth case on the "Ela" fell "Boeing". That is, for the 21 year a single accident for technical reasons.

And compare with the data on the "Boeing" and "Airbus".

It is clear that they were released a lot more, but there are enough accidents for technical reasons. So there is something to think about.

I am sure that our planes are no worse than American and European ones. Comfort and other show-off are organized in the course of production. This is not the reason for the Russians to constantly risk their lives on ancient flying aircraft-cemeteries of foreign manufacture.

And one more consideration. Who do you think is easier, cheaper and better can be serviced / repaired? "Boeing" or "IL"? Rhetorical question in my opinion.

I will sum up some written.

1. Russia needs a state-owned airline and a state guarantee of our air safety.

2. Russia needs to revive not just a civilian fleet, as it was in the USSR, but to revive it in a pattern and likeness, to revive the system of personnel training, the system of training and maintenance of aircraft.

3. Russia needs a park new domestic aircraft. To be fed by updating the fleet should be Russian aircraft builders, and not officials involved in contracts for the supply of aviahlama from the bounty of the West.

But this requires a tough political will of the Russian leadership.

We wait. Sincerely hoping that this will not require another tragedy. Are looking forward to.
Author:
539 comments
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  1. NKVD
    NKVD 1 November 2015 05: 31
    -179
    Author, do not run ahead of the cart! The investigation has just begun, there are still no conclusions.
    1. afdjhbn67
      afdjhbn67 1 November 2015 05: 53
      +201
      Quote: NKVD
      Author, do not run forward carts!

      Yes, if I had run .. the problem has long existed and therefore, against the backdrop of the tragedy, the article is especially hard on the nerves ..
      1. Enot-poloskun
        Enot-poloskun 1 November 2015 07: 49
        +89
        Sick !!!

        This is not the first plane to crash in recent years. I hope the last ...

        It is time to return the airline industry to state control. Leave 2-3 Airlines. State. One for domestic flights. Others are for foreign.

        What is this "Kagalymavia"? What the hell is this? And they are not the only ones ... They rented an old rotten plane, cut the loot, saving on safety!

        18 years the plane was operated! And most of them are abroad!

        It is also necessary to refuse leasing of foreign junk. And do the production of their civilian aircraft.
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 1 November 2015 07: 58
          +87
          The problem is in our aviation, rather not even in airplanes, but in the organization of Russian civil aviation.
          ...
          It is necessary to stop with a large variety of air carriers in Russia, ideally return to one state-owned airline, which Aeroflot has been for many years. Did the whole Union fly Aeroflot airplanes? And then let Russia fly. Enough to produce incomprehensible "low-cost airlines" and other figures from aviation.
          - from an article by Roman Skomorokhov

          That's right, Roman Skomorokhov !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          For Russia, with its endless expanses, where very few people live, but where "you can only fly by plane", and flights there are deliberately unprofitable, the presence of dozens, if not hundreds of private air campaigns, is state stupidity.
          Therefore, in Russia, all inter-regional and intra-regional air transportation has practically ceased.
          Therefore, for the sake of profit, aviation safety is neglected in all air campaigns.
          Civil aviation in Russia is in a miserable state, there is practically no building of its own aircraft, and flight and engineering personnel are not being prepared in the right amount, ...
          It is time for the Russian leadership to discard all the liberal cracking and think, finally, about the revival of civil aviation on a planned state basis. By and large, the death of people in a plane crash last quarter century, on the conscience of Russian leaders.
          It is necessary to stop this criminal variety of private air carriers.

          And finally it came to Russian lawmakers.
          The head of the State Duma's international affairs committee, Alexei Pushkov, proposed reducing the number of air carriers in Russia to two or three. He said this on the air of the Russian News Service. In his opinion, "this is the area in which the state should intervene.". - information Newspaper.Ru
          1. Enot-poloskun
            Enot-poloskun 1 November 2015 08: 36
            +129
            I would like to add the following thesis.

            Transport for Russia (rail, air, etc.) is not just a branch, but in no small measure a means of ensuring economic growth and development of the country!

            Remember: in the USSR, the unprofitability of passenger rail transport was offset by the profitability of freight. No one thought about making profit from the trains! We thought that they provide mobility for people who can provide economic growth! Jobs and so on!

            And now we are fixated on making a profit! It is not right.

            It must be said once and for all: transport in Russia is for people and for the development of the economy. Transport in Russia - should be under state control.
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 09: 03
              +22
              Quote: Enot-poloskun
              Remember: in the USSR, the unprofitability of passenger rail transport was offset by the profitability of freight. No one thought about making profit from the trains! We thought that they provide mobility for people who can provide economic growth! Jobs and so on!

              And now we are fixated on making a profit! It is not right.

              it only works when everything is in one hand
              after all, it was like that everywhere that the children's assortment was subsidized, in Central Asia they set up enterprises that never went to industrial capacity but at the same time gave jobs to the local population
              1. Baikonur
                Baikonur 1 November 2015 09: 47
                +25
                In fact, everything is simple: No matter how many airlines, shipowners, meat processing plants, etc.!
                It is important that the PERSONAL responsibility of directors, technologists (PHIZHLITS) with full confiscation of property is restored! Then they will tremble and do whatever is necessary for the safety and health of those for whom they work!
                1. Igor Nikonov
                  Igor Nikonov 1 November 2015 11: 11
                  +5
                  You will not find directors.
                  1. SAN31
                    SAN31 1 November 2015 20: 27
                    +5
                    We find, and worthy of their cause. Yes, we will not look for any trash.
                  2. Baikonur
                    Baikonur 1 November 2015 20: 45
                    +6
                    Quote: Igor Nikonov
                    You will not find directors.
                    It's Easy!
                    If a person is happy for his job, if it is important for him, he has the honor (and not money) to do his job correctly, without a hitch, without a hitch, then he is at least a locksmith, even a director! And the Shvets, and the reaper, and the igrets on the pipe, and the pilot on the plane, and the jailer on the tank and the swimmer on the steamer! And the Director - stoyets !!!
                    And then (when the PERSONAL, PERSONAL MATERIAL, MORAL responsibility of the locksmith who manufactured the part; the cleaners who washed the floors well / poorly; the director, managing 100 or 1000 or 10000 people), when it comes (albeit first by force), but eventually in the generations of the pope , mothers will be more and more children about conscience, honesty, professionalism, work,
                    ABOUT RESPONSIBILITY TO ENVIRONMENT, NEARBY, BROTHER, OWN, FRIENDS !!!
                    ACCEPT AND RELATE TO OTHERS AS WAY YOU WANT TO RELATE TO YOU !!!
                    And to write in the elevator - to harm others, neighbors - SHAME!
                    1. Baikonur
                      Baikonur 1 November 2015 21: 30
                      +1
                      Damn, I missed the comma!

                      GO AND RELAX TO OTHERS (,) AS YOU WANT TO RELATE TO YOU !!!

                      That is - the power of the RUSSIAN COMMAND !!!
                      Execution cannot be pardoned!
                      You can’t leave work!
                2. Cap.Morgan
                  Cap.Morgan 1 November 2015 11: 13
                  +11
                  Hiring the Chairs.
                  Rewrite the property on the mother-in-law. But you never know ...
                3. Lenin
                  Lenin 1 November 2015 14: 06
                  +10
                  It is also true, but in part. People from super-profits just tear the roof and they did not care about responsibility.
                4. asher
                  asher 1 November 2015 15: 30
                  +10
                  True capitalists for the sake of profit and they will not spare their mother and they will climb into the loop themselves.
                5. SAN31
                  SAN31 1 November 2015 20: 25
                  +3
                  In principle, Yes, but not enough. For those in power, there must be a direct responsibility to people! Around like in Japan, or sepuco or went down.
                  1. boris117
                    boris117 1 November 2015 21: 33
                    +4
                    "Russia needs a state airline and a state guarantee of our air security." There are industries where the state should be the determining player. Aviation is a high-tech area that determines the technical level of a country. It is naive to hope for a private owner or a foreign fleet of aircraft bought for petrodollars, or rather a crime.
                6. dvg79
                  dvg79 2 November 2015 08: 51
                  +6
                  As IVS said, every mistake has a name, surname and patronymic. Responsibility must be restored in all areas of life, otherwise it will get worse.
                7. AlexeyL
                  AlexeyL 2 November 2015 13: 14
                  +3
                  My opinion is this: I, you and others elect the leaders of the state so that, in particular, they ensure our security, welfare, etc. But at the moment, or rather, since the 90s, the state has withdrawn, giving it all to private hands (such as the pension system). The same is true in aviation. How the state can be held accountable for that uncle. Only conditionally.
                  And airline executives have one goal - profit. And everything else is secondary, serves to serve the main purpose.
              2. asher
                asher 1 November 2015 15: 28
                +25
                Central Asia is different. I worked for 7 years at the largest aviation association in Tashkent. Five IL-76 per month plan is much more powerful. And the local population is half Russian and 90% Russian-speaking. Now, in the place of the giant of the aviation industry, ruins, the population makes good money on shift and other earnings. And for the time being, the entire accident rate is yet to come. I’m now connected with a piece of iron and see how much has been done in recent years for collapse and destruction for the sake of the same superprofits.
              3. 44 World
                44 World 1 November 2015 22: 49
                +1
                In Russia 24 and Russia1 publish the names of 217 passengers who died in this disaster, I have a question why crew members are not being added to them ???
                1. TRex
                  TRex 2 November 2015 15: 53
                  +1
                  The crew members are getting a plus because "Kogalymavia" paid them only for July ... So August, September and October they are "not on the lists" yet. B ....! Pilots pay three months a salary !!! And what about the ground staff and the quality of its work with such bestiality ???
            2. Roman Skomorokhov
              1 November 2015 09: 14
              +48
              Quote: Enot-poloskun
              Transport for Russia (rail, air, etc.) is not just a branch, but in no small measure a means of ensuring economic growth and development of the country!


              Just like that, subscribe to every word. Too long distances for transportation to be super profitable.

              In general, Russia is such a unique phenomenon that some things simply have to be under the control of the state. Otherwise, the beginning of lawlessness begins.
              1. stalkerwalker
                stalkerwalker 1 November 2015 12: 53
                +32
                Quote: Banshee
                Otherwise, uniform chaos begins.

                Novel....
                It (lawlessness) began, and not even yesterday.
                I'm just too lazy to dig around and collect materials on the status of such an industry as the navy. There are problems everywhere - from the training system to local administration. Visible everywhere hand of Moscowno matter how loud it sounds.
                These Moscow managers from the main altar, equipped with enormous powers, money and arrogance, arrive in their places and begin to managering so that the howl rises.
                Short.
                There is no modern fleet. And nobody builds it, they don’t order abroad. Even in China.
                Nautical schools are only renamed.
                A former captain, one of the most competent specialists in the North-West of Russia, is working in the Arkhangelsk seafarer, for 18 tons per month - as an example.
                40% of graduates of naval schools in their specialty were not going to work initially, and the money was spent.
                The old fleet - the average age of the courts of the Russian Federation is more than 24 years.
                Etc. etc.
                hi
                1. navigator
                  navigator 1 November 2015 17: 40
                  +10
                  Quote: stalkerwalker
                  There is no modern fleet. And nobody builds it, they don’t order abroad. Even in China. Nautical schools are only renaming. A former captain, one of the most competent specialists in the North-West of Russia, works in the Arkhangelsk seafarer for 18 tons a month - as an example. 40% of graduates of naval schools by profession did not intend to work initially, and the money was spent. The fleet is old - the average age of the courts of the Russian Federation - more than 24 years. etc. etc.


                  In Murmansk, the same thing. Yes, and throughout the country it would be strange if it were different. Everything collapsed at the same time.
                2. The comment was deleted.
                3. AlexeyL
                  AlexeyL 2 November 2015 13: 19
                  +4
                  In the river fleet, the situation is even worse. We can say that he disappears. You can write to the Red Book
              2. Lenin
                Lenin 1 November 2015 14: 14
                +18
                It begins to put it mildly, the whole country has long been living in this lawlessness, already from the 90s. A simple example with the sale of US shares in the unique production of quartz in Gus-Khrustalny. The best quartz in the world were and the whole defense industry worked for them. Therefore, we have long been living in lawlessness. But a fresh example, in Pyatigorsk we decided to sell unique baleos and mud baths. Since tsarist times, no one has encroached on them, people from all over the country go for treatment, because it’s useful, affordable and there are no analogues in the world since the water is unique .. But what will happen now ... or is the nation’s health not the country's direct security?
              3. nikpwolf
                nikpwolf 1 November 2015 16: 52
                +5
                Quote: Banshee
                In general, Russia is such a unique phenomenon that some things simply have to be under the control of the state. Otherwise, the beginning of lawlessness begins.

                In fact, in general, everything should be under the control of the state. Here, however, control control strife. Everything rests on the personality of the controllers, controllers of controllers and leaders of controllers of controllers, as well as those who control them. These individuals, from here to "heaven", all together, form the structure of state control. The activities of the state are determined by law. The state is the law. And how this law is observed is an indicator of the health and strength of the state. And what difference does it make if the law is violated in one airline (for whose benefit it doesn't matter) or in a dozen? In fact, a set of legislative measures is needed to ensure the safety of transportation (limiting the service life of ships, admission of summer personnel, personal responsibility at all levels, including in permitting structures, etc., etc.), and not solely on the notorious "profitability" and profitability. First life and safety, then money. And compliance with the law. The bottom line is the obligation of the state to stop the ghouls (whoever they are) earning money for the life and health of citizens. If you can't organize it like that, you don't fly. Absolutely. You can - please. At least 10, at least 50 companies, whether you are public or private. And it’s not only in aviation.
            3. Nikolay K
              Nikolay K 1 November 2015 09: 38
              +5
              You do not understand that our market economy and the airline are not appointed by the state, but by PEOPLE voting by the ruble. Especially when it comes to charters. Well, make you airlines buy our new planes, but if they turn out to be uncompetitive, then passengers will still fly other planes, most likely foreign carriers. And our planes will rust, airlines will go bankrupt. The state should not be prohibited and forced, but stimulated. In order for companies to buy domestic aircraft, those must firstly be, not only modern, but also economical. But now the most important thing is not even that. We have crazy loan rates in our country. It is because of this that our companies operate old planes, because for them leasing an 15 summer airplane costs as much as leasing an 5 summer airplane for a European company. It is simply not affordable for us to operate new aircraft. Hence the high accident rate.
              1. Awaz
                Awaz 1 November 2015 10: 08
                +23
                duck, the author correctly draws attention to the fact that the authorities are stimulating the leasing of foreign used aircraft, absolutely not stimulating their own manufacturer. A very recent topic with Transaero also showed a lot. Of course, the management worked there too, but at least they tried to lease new planes and generally collapsed because of this, but instead of supporting and helping somehow, they took and closed a huge one, which was not bad at all, comparing with the same Kogalymavia company.
                There should be no wild capitalism where everyone survives as best he can. In many industries, even in the west, the state participates in this very market struggle.
                It is a pity for people who die not only from a desire to save money, but also from a negligent attitude of the authorities towards their people.
                1. Nikolay K
                  Nikolay K 1 November 2015 10: 42
                  +8
                  Most aircraft are leased, it is a well-established international practice. Aeroflot's superjets are also leased. The state just does not stimulate anything, which is why the old Boeing are leased because the new ones are not affordable and because there are simply no domestic old planes. And new domestic ones are almost equivalent in value to imported ones. If the state wants to develop its own economy, it must solve the problem with credit rates, without which we are not competitive. Air transportation is a prime example.
              2. Igor Nikonov
                Igor Nikonov 1 November 2015 11: 52
                +1
                Quote: Cap.Morgan
                Hiring the Chairs.
                Rewrite the property on the mother-in-law. But you never know ...

                Well, yes. "Technical Director - Chief Engineer" - a seasoned inmate will be.
              3. Igor Nikonov
                Igor Nikonov 1 November 2015 11: 59
                +2
                Nikolay K RU Today, 09:38 ↑
                "... We have crazy lending rates in our country. It is because of this that our companies operate old aircraft, because leasing a 15-year-old aircraft for them costs the same as leasing a 5-year-old for a European company ..." rubles take a loan?
                1. SAN31
                  SAN31 1 November 2015 20: 34
                  +4
                  And you don’t have to buy a western one; you exchanged your aircraft industry for 30 pieces of silver.
                  They have their own planes, they do not allow to run into a series - corruptible skins. This can be understood, 3% of their ships in the sky and that is the legacy of the Great Motherland! Administrators dragged the country !!! Where did our oligarchs come from - Did the merchants inherit ??? Where is our IL-96 ????
                  1. doxtop
                    doxtop 2 November 2015 00: 41
                    0
                    Quote: SAN31
                    Where is our IL-96 ????

                    Dear!
                    I beg you, do not rush into the mass accusation of everyone and everything! This has long been clear to hedgehogs that in the real world, commercial profit means everything, well, or almost everything. And everyone seeks to earn more.
                    To the question "why was our aviation industry abandoned?" There is one banal (although unpleasant for me) answer - in the USSR, and then in Russia, the domestic engine building has always lagged behind the Western. Yes it is true, and yes it is regrettable. If in the USSR this was not of particular importance (higher fuel consumption was always compensated by state subsidies), then in modern Russia fuel economy has come to one of the first (if not the first) place. In fact ... having the finest, extremely reliable and unpretentious IL-96, we simultaneously have 10-15% higher fuel consumption, and this is already many, many thousands of "unsaved" money.
                    As a result ... after the collapse of the USSR, it became more profitable for passenger air carriers to buy a Boeing or Airbus, because it provided a significant item to the company's budget on fuel savings every year. No! I'm not saying that there was no need to abandon attempts to modernize Ily. It just turned out that it was economically unprofitable for any company to redesign the same Il-96 for two more powerful and economical engines, like the B-757, or the A-330 (than the 4th in the base modification of Ilyusha). Rather, the design bureau could carry out such a modernization, but the cost of revision and alteration of existing aircraft would result in such a "pretty penny" that no airline would buy it.
                    And yet ... there is a way! And he has long been found! ;)
                    The IL-96s family, or rather, the experience in the production of these aircraft has not been lost and is now being used again. The existing fleet of the 96s began to be redone (according to the defense state order) from tanker planes for the needs of the East Kazakhstan region. The PS-90 engines currently available are being processed to meet increased requirements and meet modern conditions for cost-effectiveness (take at least the PS-90A-76 for the IL-76MD-90A) ... I don’t think in the not too distant future we will hear about the existence of modifications of this engine in the form of (let's say) - PS-90A-96, or whatever it may be. It may also become finite that one of the PD-96 variants will be installed on the IL-14e.
                    In addition ... the creation of a new main airliner is a very troublesome and costly business (in the current conditions) and in order to reduce financial costs it is simply necessary to cooperate with someone. That we are already successfully implementing together with some representatives of other countries in the MS-21 project. In addition, an intergovernmental agreement was signed between Russia and the PRC on the creation by 2020 of a new long-range airliner with 250-320 seats. According to rumors :) untested infa ... but it has the right to exist ... Perm Aviadvigatel has already been instructed to design a new type of turbofan engine with an operating thrust of about 30-35 ton-forces (a direct competitor to the Trent and GE-90 engines) ...
                    So, even after the collapse of the Union, the acquisition of Western airliners was justified, but now the situation has nevertheless (albeit slowly, but still) begun to change.
                    In general ... "wait and see," as they say.
                    :)
                    1. mervino2007
                      mervino2007 3 November 2015 15: 36
                      +2
                      Quote: doxtop
                      An intergovernmental agreement was signed between Russia and China on the creation by 2020 of a new long-haul airliner with 250-320 seats.

                      Well, well, actually - we’ll give the Chinese the technology for building wide-body aircraft (IL96-300). And that’s all over.
                      doxtop, tell me, where did you get data on the low profitability of IL96-300? The man who once piloted the IL96-300 from Moscow to New York told me that when the American service staff at the New York Airport checked the remaining fuel in the tanks of the IL96-300, I was very surprised at this. These guys said that the Boeing is a classmate of the IL96-300, flies in on crumbs of fuel, and yours has a solid balance. It seems that the low efficiency of our aircraft is a myth that Boeing needs and is organized with their money.
                2. bornikrub
                  bornikrub 2 November 2015 07: 18
                  +1
                  This is true, the nationalization of the Central Bank is indispensable.
              4. Bayun
                Bayun 1 November 2015 12: 41
                +28
                If your wife cooks a tasteless soup - this is not a reason to eat at a neighbor's;) There are areas of life where the words "competition", "economy" are inapplicable. ANY foreign equipment with electronics can be turned off at the request of the manufacturer. What, at all, is the economy when it comes to everyday security.
                1. Dali
                  Dali 1 November 2015 15: 03
                  +3
                  Quote: Bayun
                  If your wife cooks a tasteless soup - this is not a reason to eat with a neighbor;)
                  Well said ... add only:

                  If your wife cooks a tasteless soup - this is not a reason to eat with a neighbor, and a reason to find a way to teach how to cook delicious !!!
                  1. a housewife
                    a housewife 1 November 2015 19: 17
                    +3
                    Or cook yourself.
                    1. Dali
                      Dali 2 November 2015 00: 01
                      0
                      Quote: housewife
                      Or cook yourself.
                      As they say in taste and color ... so there are enough ways to solve the problem ...
                2. viktor561
                  viktor561 2 November 2015 01: 27
                  +1
                  About soup and wife - it's cool ++++
              5. perm23
                perm23 1 November 2015 13: 26
                0
                Maybe just the leaders of such companies need to think in their pocket how to fill it up thicker and faster, and about people. Then the cranes will not fall and planes.
                1. asher
                  asher 1 November 2015 15: 37
                  +3
                  And they just think about people, about themselves and their loved ones, that they will have a lot of due to saving on the safety of others, too, sort of like people.
                2. cuzmin.mihail2013
                  cuzmin.mihail2013 1 November 2015 21: 38
                  +3
                  The current "leaders" will never think about safety. As well as reducing the cost of transportation.
                  They will not think and their immediate subordinates. There can be no talk at all about TB, or about any kind of social support (well, if only, the promise of a social package of services when hiring). There is only one argument: "If you don't like it, get away! There will be others."
                  Here they are. And, then the crew did not undergo a pre-flight medical examination for alcohol, then the driver of the snow blower left the runway, then ...
                  In principle, even if there will be only one airline in Russia, I am sure that the similar style of work of managers will be the same. An example is Russian Railways !!!
                  The whole system of the current Russian state is a mixture of the worst principles of work under the tsarist, capitalist and socialist system. And without her cardinal change, not a damn good.
                  No references to examples of "developed" countries are appropriate. This is Russia gentlemen !!!
              6. Lenin
                Lenin 1 November 2015 14: 16
                +10
                Do not confuse a market economy with a selling one. In Russia there is no and there is no market economy, no where in the world there is no such pricing. hi
              7. asher
                asher 1 November 2015 15: 35
                0
                Yes yes - the invisible hand of the market, market economy and other delights. Not to mention democracy. We all vote, who ruble, who ass, and someone listening and eating does not get drunk. State regulation just cuts off the activities of such cheap and insecure companies. Let the planes be ours, let the tickets be more expensive, BUT security is higher.
            4. Nikolay K
              Nikolay K 1 November 2015 10: 53
              -4
              Market monopolization will lead to higher prices. You can of course get airlines to buy new planes. But will you be willing to pay 3x more for air tickets? As you correctly said, transport, especially aviation, is a priority for Russia and its territories. Now imagine, if even now our people soar for several days in a reserved seat carriage or die on our broken highways, because they cannot afford to fly by air, then what "progress" will come if air tickets rise in price three times? The problem is big, but you can't solve it by swinging a checker.
              1. Felix
                Felix 1 November 2015 12: 19
                +6
                Quote: Nikolai K
                Market monopolization will lead to higher prices. You can of course get airlines to buy new planes. But will you be willing to pay 3x more for air tickets? As you correctly said, transport, especially aviation, is a priority for Russia and its territories. Now imagine, if even now our people soar for several days in a reserved seat carriage or die on our broken highways, because they cannot afford to fly by air, then what "progress" will come if air tickets rise in price three times? The problem is big, but you can't solve it by swinging a checker.

                I agree. Russian Railways went along a similar path - they reduced the number of passenger trains, and they are struggling with an influx of passengers ... increasing the fare. The same, quite likely, can happen with Aeroflot ... With an insufficient number of aircraft, there will be a number of people who want to limit.
              2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 12: 54
                +8
                Quote: Nikolai K
                Monopolization of the market will lead to higher prices.

                it all depends on the goal of monopolization, once again in the Union a 12-page notebook cost 2 kopecks even though the market was monopolized
                1. Your friend
                  Your friend 1 November 2015 13: 25
                  +1
                  Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Quote: Nikolai K
                  Monopolization of the market will lead to higher prices.

                  it all depends on the goal of monopolization, once again in the Union a 12-page notebook cost 2 kopecks even though the market was monopolized

                  Because no one else produced notebooks. But if you make a couple of state. companies just a few dozen as it is now, it will not save this pair of state. companies from competition with foreign airlines. And they will lose this competition. Look, even now, the price of Aeroflot’s flight, for example to Berlin, is much higher than that of Swiss or AirBerlin.
                  1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 13: 27
                    +3
                    Quote: Your friend
                    Because no one else produced notebooks.

                    why did you write this ?!
                    you yourself understood or most importantly blurt out?
                    1. Your friend
                      Your friend 1 November 2015 13: 34
                      -7
                      Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Quote: Your friend
                      Because no one else produced notebooks.

                      why did you write this ?!
                      you yourself understood or most importantly blurt out?

                      This is if you did not understand that in the USSR there was only one manufacturer. If it were 4, 5, 100, then how do you know that 2 cents is not enough, maybe due to competition the price would drop? Maybe her price is 1 kopeck.
                      For the rest, have something to say? Do you distinguish the difference between monopolies in a planned economy and a market economy?
                      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 13: 52
                        +8
                        Quote: Your friend
                        . If it were 4, 5, 100, then how do you know that 2 cents is not enough, maybe due to competition the price would drop? Maybe her price is 1 kopeck.

                        before writing, find out something on the topic, the cost was about 8 cents, it was simply more profitable for the state to lose here, but to win in another
                        but this can only happen when everything is in one hand, otherwise each owner thinks about the benefit and the benefits of others eat on the drum.
                        and it was profitable for the state to lose "6 kopecks" but win a "ruble"

                        what would you be aware of the monopolist (USSR) dated the entire range of children
                      2. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 14: 05
                        -2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        . If it were 4, 5, 100, then how do you know that 2 cents is not enough, maybe due to competition the price would drop? Maybe her price is 1 kopeck.

                        before writing, find out something on the topic, the cost was about 8 cents, it was simply more profitable for the state to lose here, but to win in another
                        but this can only happen when everything is in one hand, otherwise each owner thinks about the benefit and the benefits of others eat on the drum.
                        and it was profitable for the state to lose "6 kopecks" but win a "ruble"

                        The link is to the cost of 8kop., I did not find?
                        And what does this prove? Only that no one was thinking about cutting costs because there were monopolies everywhere.
                        and it was profitable for the state to lose "6 kopecks" but to win a "ruble" so that you would be aware of the monopolist (USSR) dated the entire children's assortment

                        And the state would not be more profitable to pay people so much money that they had enough to pay 8 kopecks. for a notebook and an undated "children's assortment"?
                      3. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 14: 26
                        +4
                        Quote: Your friend
                        The link is to the cost of 8kop., I did not find?

                        from reliable sources laughing
                        you think that only info is posted here from neta, be surprised, but no
                        I don’t know how to give you a link to the knowledge gained in the USSR
                      4. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 14: 32
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        The link is to the cost of 8kop., I did not find?

                        from reliable sources laughing
                        you think that only info is posted here from neta, be surprised, but no
                        I don’t know how to give you a link to the knowledge gained in the USSR

                        Clearly understood.
                        Give me knowledge not from the Internet, you write cleverness, in which book of the Soviet times there is information about the cost of notebooks?
                      5. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 14: 45
                        +5
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Give me knowledge not from the Internet, you write cleverness, in which book of the Soviet times there is information about the cost of notebooks?

                        don’t play the fool, the uncle of the direct notebook factory in Almaty, the mother was engaged in the design of light industry enterprises, you will be surprised but the person receives knowledge from different sources
                      6. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 14: 49
                        0
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Give me knowledge not from the Internet, you write cleverness, in which book of the Soviet times there is information about the cost of notebooks?

                        don’t play the fool, the uncle of the direct notebook factory in Almaty, the mother was engaged in the design of light industry enterprises, you will be surprised but the person receives knowledge from different sources

                        Clearly, there are no official data.
                        Seriously, I somewhere argued that only one source needs data to be taken? Rave
                      7. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 14: 46
                        +1
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Is there information on the cost of notebooks?

                        Feasibility study polygraph enterprises, look
                      8. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 14: 48
                        -3
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Feasibility study polygraph enterprises

                        What kind of TechEcObosn. polygraph enterprises? Is this a magazine? What year?
                      9. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 15: 06
                        +2
                        you checkered or go?
                        The feasibility study is done for the projects of various enterprises, there they will find all the information you are interested in, including the cost of production
                        and please don’t turn on the fool.
                        By the way, you never said how old you are.
                      10. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 15: 11
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        you checkered or go?
                        The feasibility study is done for the projects of various enterprises, there they will find all the information you are interested in, including the cost of production
                        and please don’t turn on the fool.
                        By the way, you never said how old you are.

                        Do you know how yap differs from a normal person? The fact that yap is not responsible for what he carries. (
                        You said that the cost of the notebook is "8 kopecks.", You did not give a single proof, but I "turn on the fool." Lovely.)
                        I will answer you again, why do you need to know how old I am?
                      11. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 15: 13
                        +2
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Do you know how yap differs from a normal person? The fact that yap is not responsible for what he carries ...
                        You declare

                        Tell me, do you have anything to do with printing ?!
                        and all so how old are you I'm just wondering if you lived with the union or not
                      12. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 15: 17
                        0
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Do you know how yap differs from a normal person? The fact that yap is not responsible for what he carries ...
                        You declare

                        Tell me in relation to printing?
                        and all so how old are you I'm just wondering if you lived with the union or not

                        Oh my god, what do I have to do with printing or not. What does this have to do with data on the cost of a notebook of 8 kopecks?
                        Yes, I lived under the USSR, how will this information help you?
                      13. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 15: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Your friend

                        Oh my god, what do I have to do with printing or not. What does this have to do with data on the cost of a notebook of 8 kopecks?
                        Yes, I lived under the USSR, how will this information help you?

                        to the fact that, unlike you, I have worked in this industry for 20 years and I’m talking about it as if from the inside you can’t distinguish offset paper from newsprint, but at the same time you’re clever how old you are
                      14. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 15: 32
                        -2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend

                        Oh my god, what do I have to do with printing or not. What does this have to do with data on the cost of a notebook of 8 kopecks?
                        Yes, I lived under the USSR, how will this information help you?

                        to the fact that, unlike you, I have worked in this industry for 20 years and I’m talking about it as if from the inside you can’t distinguish offset paper from newsprint, but at the same time you’re clever how old you are

                        This is a complete bdzets, once again I am already writing, you did not provide evidence of YOUR data that the cost of a notebook is 8kop, and at the same time I am "clever" ???)))
                        "how old are you" - what about your perception? I replied that I lived in the USSR. Why do you need my exact age? How does this help you?
                      15. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 15: 41
                        +1
                        "respected"
                        once again find the design documentation of a profile enterprise of the USSR period
                        and you have a full bzdets or not at all somehow violet
                        our problem is that amateurs like you undertake to discuss topics that even by ear do not know
                      16. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 15: 50
                        -3
                        No no. This is a real bzdets.))) Not amateurs with us can not provide confirmation of THEIR data. Not amateurs, we believe that in the USSR they reduced the cost of goods by building "enterprises of the light industry and local industry whose main task was to provide employment and not profit."
                        But this is certainly not a problem, the patamushta is "violet".)))
                      17. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 15: 53
                        +1
                        sorry, but you are stubborn like a ram
                        you will not find this data in nete personal knowledge of specific people you consider fiction
                        fat to be discus finished
                        if it’s very interesting, find the archives of the State Planning Commission
                        no, consider that the union had two varieties of sausages, etc.

                      18. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 15: 59
                        -2
                        sorry but go to the ass

                        The post was changed, but I saw everything.
                        Ay-ay. Such an adult, an integral marshal, and so uncivilized. (((
                        But "not an amateur". lol
                        Again twenty-five, where I thought that "there are two varieties of sausages in the union"? Where did I write it?
                        sorry, but you are stubborn like a ram

                        Are you in trouble with your head? I only ask you to give me a source, a SPECIFIC source, where these "8 kopecks." are counted. What knowledge of specific people, what kind of nonsense.
                      19. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 16: 09
                        -1
                        Quote: Your friend
                        but I saw everything.
                        Ay-ay. Such an adult, an integral marshal, and so uncivilized. (((
                        But "not an amateur".

                        I'm happy
                        http://natribu.org
                      20. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 16: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        but I saw everything.
                        Ay-ay. Such an adult, an integral marshal, and so uncivilized. (((
                        But "not an amateur".

                        I'm happy
                        http://natribu.org

                        Ahahahaha ... but there is nothing about "8 kopecks." ?!
                        Hell, you screwed up with the source of your knowledge again, you are not our amateur.
                      21. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 16: 31
                        0
                        for you have
                        The source of knowledge I told you, he will not suit you, all are free
                      22. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 16: 45
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        for you have
                        The source of knowledge I told you, he will not suit you, all are free

                        What is "for you", Marshal? Delirious again. You pointed it out to me, this is your source of knowledge. Again, from a sore head to a healthy one. Not good.
                        The source, the grandmother in the yard said, and the site http://natribu.org, of course does not suit, somehow in amateurish, you are not an amateur.
                        "everyone, free" - what a touchy marshal)))
                      23. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 17: 30
                        0
                        factory director is a grandmother ?!
                        the person who designed the light industry enterprises is a grandmother ?!

                        Once again, you are talking to a person who knows this industry, but you can’t distinguish offset printing from high printing and at the same time try to be clever
                      24. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 18: 46
                        -3
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        factory director is a grandmother ?!
                        the person who designed the light industry enterprises is a grandmother ?!

                        Once again, you are talking to a person who knows this industry, but you can’t distinguish offset printing from high printing and at the same time try to be clever

                        Granny, of course.) How can you believe a person who claims that in the USSR, light and local industry enterprises were built to "provide employment".)
                        Who writes that "unlike today's prices and wages during the union, they were just grounded and calculated" - fucking grounded and calculated - that they had to sell notebooks 4 times cheaper than their cost.)
                        I have no doubt about your knowledge of "the difference between offset and high printing".)))
                        By the way, please indicate where I am "clever".
                      25. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 2 November 2015 07: 50
                        +1
                        Who do you work for?
                      26. Your friend
                        Your friend 2 November 2015 11: 29
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Who do you work for?

                        I’m waiting for everything when I answer my questions:
                        once again for those who in the tank the children's assortment in the USSR was dated ALL

                        where did I argue with you that the children's assortment was dated or not dated?
                        no, consider that the union had two varieties of sausages, etc.

                        Again twenty-five, where I thought that "there are two varieties of sausages in the union"? Where did I write it?
                      27. viktor561
                        viktor561 2 November 2015 01: 31
                        +4
                        "Which Soviet-era book contains information about the cost of notebooks?" - open any accounting department of the boom of the plant and you will understand - everything is transparent and understandable there
                      28. Your friend
                        Your friend 2 November 2015 11: 22
                        -4
                        Quote: viktor561
                        "Which Soviet-era book contains information about the cost of notebooks?" - open any accounting department of the boom of the plant and you will understand - everything is transparent and understandable there

                        Who are you to poke me?
                        "Any accounting department is booming" - do you have it, do you have data on 8kop? If not, why are you bothering with your advice?)
                      29. AlexeyL
                        AlexeyL 2 November 2015 13: 41
                        +1
                        Clung to "8 kopecks." the topic of discussion was completely taken away !!!
                      30. Your friend
                        Your friend 2 November 2015 14: 48
                        -1
                        Quote: AlexeyL
                        Clung to "8 kopecks." the topic of discussion was completely taken away !!!

                        Those. the one who mentioned the first about 8 cops, he wrote on the topic, but I mean hooked. Ischo one wise guy.)
                      31. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 14: 30
                        +2
                        Quote: Your friend
                        And the state would not be more profitable to pay people so much money that they have enough to pay 8 kopecks.

                        sorry write nonsense, I hope why you will understand for yourself, by the way, unlike today's prices and salaries at the union, they were justified and calculated
                        another example in the SA were built enterprises of light industry and the local industry whose main task was to ensure employment and not profit
                        as a result of losing on this in general the state won having employment and relieving social tension,
                      32. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 14: 40
                        -2
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        And the state would not be more profitable to pay people so much money that they have enough to pay 8 kopecks.

                        sorry write nonsense, I hope why you will understand for yourself, by the way, unlike today's prices and salaries at the union, they were justified and calculated
                        another example in the SA were built enterprises of light industry and the local industry whose main task was to ensure employment and not profit
                        as a result of losing on this in general the state won having employment and relieving social tension,

                        Yes, yes, I already understood, "I am stupidity", you are clever.
                        Seriously, enterprises were built to "provide employment", and not to produce goods necessary for the country ??? Just think what kind of leadership there was in the USSR, truly Samaritans.
                        Yeah, everything was calculated, social. the tension was removed, the state won - and as soon as the USSR collapsed, surprisingly. Oh yes, the traitors who sold themselves for cookies collapsed.
                      33. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 14: 32
                        +1
                        Quote: Your friend
                        and the undated "children's assortment"?

                        actually it was dated and not vice versa
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Just the fact that no one was thinking about cutting costs because there were monopolies everywhere.

                        you will be surprised but just then thought
                        how old are you?
                      34. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 14: 44
                        -1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        and the undated "children's assortment"?

                        actually it was dated and not vice versa
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Just the fact that no one was thinking about cutting costs because there were monopolies everywhere.

                        you will be surprised but just then thought
                        how old are you?

                        Read carefully what I am writing to you. I wrote to you that maybe it was worth the salary. raise so people can buy undated "baby assortment", what's not clear to you?
                        We did not think about cost reduction. You yourself wrote:
                        another example in the SA were built enterprises of light industry and the local industry whose main task was to ensure employment and not profit

                        This is a super mega cost reduction)))) You wouldn’t contradict yourself.
                        Why do you need my age?
                      35. a housewife
                        a housewife 1 November 2015 19: 48
                        +4
                        What kind of salary increase can we talk about if all the time prices were cut at enterprises? As soon as they started to produce something more than the notorious 102%, they reduced their prices - otherwise the workers would get too much money!
                      36. 34 region
                        34 region 3 November 2015 01: 05
                        +1
                        Well today, then, as I understand it, they raise prices! Or increase the rate?
                      37. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 21: 09
                        +2
                        Quote: Your friend
                        This is a super mega cost reduction)))) You wouldn’t contradict yourself.

                        I understand with an understanding of the reading of the problem?
                      38. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 21: 16
                        -3
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        This is a super mega cost reduction)))) You wouldn’t contradict yourself.

                        I understand with an understanding of the reading of the problem?

                        So yes, you have a "reading understanding of the problem".
                      39. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 21: 17
                        +4
                        I’m typing into the blind, you understand what I’m talking about, but since you are just trolling, you cling to everything
                        once again do not know the topic quietly unscrew
                      40. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 21: 29
                        -5
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        I’m typing into the blind, you understand what I’m talking about, but since you are just trolling, you cling to everything
                        once again do not know the topic quietly unscrew

                        I’ll cheat on you, since you’re so slow-witted. Here is your phrase:
                        enterprises of light industry and local industry were built in the SA, the main task of which was to ensure employment and not profit

                        Those. according to your phrase, in the USSR, an enterprise is not being built where it is profitable and where it is possible to produce goods the country needs (where there is good transport accessibility, affordable and close raw materials, trained personnel - that is, the cost of goods is reduced), but where it is necessary " provide employment. " Thus, during the construction of these enterprises, no cost reduction occurs. Ferstein?
                        So what about "8 kopecks.", Are you our expert on the topic and not an amateur?)
                        "quietly back off" - but what is it, Marshal, and you behave yourself so cattle, it's not good.)

                        PS. It's funny that the person was the first to write - "as I understand it, with the understanding of reading the problem?", And when the answer is the same to him - it is trolling. What's a man with a head ...)
                      41. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 21: 37
                        +3
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Those. according to your phrase, in the USSR the enterprise is not built where it is profitable and it is possible to produce goods that the country needs

                        excuse me, but you are really either stupid or stubborn, the lack of social tension is the same financial benefit on a statewide scale, only it is expressed not in the production of goods, but in the reduction of the criminal situation and the pressure on interethnic relations.
                        goods were produced and at the same time a different task was being solved, but this is not possible in today's conditions
                        Quote: Your friend
                        So what about "8 kopecks.", Are you our expert on the topic and not an amateur?)

                        no all the same are stupid and not stubborn
                        these are two different topics, albeit from the same area
                        once again for those who in the tank the assortment of children in the USSR was dated EVERYTHING and put me with a part, believe it or not, you can find the info or not, it's just an existing fact, the whole topic is closed to argue with a brow who really doesn’t understand a thing in the subject no
                      42. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 21: 52
                        -4
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Those. according to your phrase, in the USSR the enterprise is not built where it is profitable and it is possible to produce goods that the country needs

                        excuse me, but you are really either stupid or stubborn, the lack of social tension is the same financial benefit on a statewide scale, only it is expressed not in the production of goods, but in the reduction of the criminal situation and the pressure on interethnic relations.
                        goods were produced and at the same time a different task was being solved, but this is not possible in today's conditions
                        Quote: Your friend
                        So what about "8 kopecks.", Are you our expert on the topic and not an amateur?)

                        no all the same are stupid and not stubborn
                        these are two different topics, albeit from the same area
                        once again for those who in the tank the assortment of children in the USSR was dated EVERYTHING and put me with a part, believe it or not, you can find the info or not, it's just an existing fact, the whole topic is closed to argue with a brow who really doesn’t understand a thing in the subject no


                        Ahahahaha ... What ???? Are you raving ??? What are you talking about, what kind of criminogenic situation, what interethnic problems, what kind of social. tension ??? These were our specialists in light industry, which dealt with interethnic problems, and not light industry. Everything's clear with you.(
                        Do you have something with your head, show me where I argued with you that the children's assortment was dated or not dated? You need to be seriously treated.
                      43. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 21: 59
                        +3
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Ahahahaha ... What ???? Are you raving ??? What are you talking about, what kind of criminogenic situation, what interethnic problems, what kind of social. tension ???

                        stupid stupid
                        earlier, these same Uzbeks and Tajiks were employed, including at "unnecessary" enterprises in your understanding, and now they are all in Russia, including in the criminal space
                        I'm generally interested in having you ever done a product cost calculation?
                      44. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 22: 08
                        -3
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Ahahahaha ... What ???? Are you raving ??? What are you talking about, what kind of criminogenic situation, what interethnic problems, what kind of social. tension ???

                        stupid stupid
                        earlier, these same Uzbeks and Tajiks were employed, including at "unnecessary" enterprises in your understanding, and now they are all in Russia, including in the criminal space
                        I'm generally interested in having you ever done a product cost calculation?

                        Really, you need to be treated, well, what Uzbeks, what Tajiks. What is my understanding? Where did I talk about "unnecessary" in my understanding of the enterprise "? Are you delusional again?)))
                        You ignored this, as always:
                        Do you have something with your head, show me where I argued with you that the children's assortment was dated or not dated?

                        ALL the topic is closed to argue with the brow who really does not understand a damn topic does not make sense

                        I'm generally interested in having you ever done a product cost calculation?

                        You have big problems with your head, then you want one thing, and then you want the opposite)))
                      45. nerd.su
                        nerd.su 2 November 2015 21: 35
                        +2
                        Quote: Your friend
                        And the state would not be more profitable to pay people so much money that they had enough to pay 8 kopecks. for a notebook and an undated "children's assortment"?

                        Not more profitable. Salary growth in those conditions was almost the only engine of inflation. Therefore, enterprises could not jump above the size of wage funds. But everyone who wanted this could live well, the rest could not be afraid of tomorrow.
                      46. Your friend
                        Your friend 2 November 2015 23: 54
                        -2
                        Quote: bot.su
                        Quote: Your friend
                        And the state would not be more profitable to pay people so much money that they had enough to pay 8 kopecks. for a notebook and an undated "children's assortment"?

                        Not more profitable. Salary growth in those conditions was almost the only engine of inflation. Therefore, enterprises could not jump above the size of wage funds. But everyone who wanted this could live well, the rest could not be afraid of tomorrow.

                        Yes? But wasn’t the lack of consumer goods the driving force behind inflation?
                        More profitable or not more profitable, nevertheless zp in the USSR grew.
                      47. nerd.su
                        nerd.su 3 November 2015 18: 00
                        0
                        Consumer Product Lack - Inflation? How?

                        Salaries grew according to plan, the planned economy. But still, for each enterprise there was an approved (regularly approved) payroll.
                      48. Your friend
                        Your friend 3 November 2015 22: 44
                        0
                        Quote: bot.su
                        Consumer Product Lack - Inflation? How?

                        Salaries grew according to plan, the planned economy. But still, for each enterprise there was an approved (regularly approved) payroll.

                        And where did they grow according to plan or did not grow. You wrote that it was not profitable for the state to raise the charge. charge due to inflation. And it was periodically raised. Although the term "inflation" itself looks oddly dismissive of a planned economy.)
                        There is a lot of money - there is not enough goods. Remember these stores are "commission". What kind of "commission" prices were there for a scarce commodity, and what state. the prices were for this product, which was not in ordinary stores or it was quickly bought up. Remember the prices for meat in the markets and in the state. stores. Remember the state. auto prices and auto sales prices according to advertisements.
                        http://afanarizm.livejournal.com/274525.html
                      49. nerd.su
                        nerd.su 4 November 2015 20: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Your friend
                        Although the term "inflation" itself looks oddly dismissive of a planned economy.)

                        Why is he strange?
                        Quote: Your friend
                        And where did they grow according to plan or did not grow. You wrote that it was not profitable for the state to raise the charge. fee due to inflation. And she was periodically raised

                        The amount of cash on hand at the population was strictly regulated in accordance with the mass of cash goods and services.

                        Quote: Your friend
                        There is a lot of money - there is not enough goods.

                        Once again, there was exactly as much money as goods. There are many people - there are few goods, here is the deficit formula. Due to distortions in the economy, but it is not fatal. Nobody was dying of hunger and lack of clothing and the range was growing. In commissions, as far as I remember - to Gorbachev, of course - prices were often even lower than in state trade. We thought it was a second-hand, in modern language. Perhaps in large cities it was not so, but then I lived in a small laughing With the collapse of the union, the situation began to change with us.
                      50. Your friend
                        Your friend 4 November 2015 21: 23
                        0
                        Why is he strange?

                        Brrrr ... If as you say:
                        The amount of cash on hand at the population was strictly regulated in accordance with the mass of cash goods and services.

                        how can it be that "the growth of wages in those conditions was almost the only engine of inflation." According to your statement, the increase in wages should be offset by an increase in the mass of goods and services, so "there was exactly as much money as there was goods." Inflation, based on your statements, should not be.
                        Inflation (lat. Inflatio - bloating) - increasing the level of prices for goods and services. With inflation for the same amount of money after some time, it will be possible to buy less goods and services than before. In this case, they say that over the past time the purchasing power of money has decreased, money has depreciated - they have lost part of their real value.
                        Once again, there was exactly as much money as goods.

                        Of course of course. Now we have 100 rubles of money, and the amount of goods that we have is 5 carrots, tomorrow we printed another 900 rubles, but we had 5 carrots as we had. But today and tomorrow we "had exactly as much money as goods." It's just that today one carrot costs 20 rubles, and tomorrow 200).
                        Do you have any links that your statement is true?
                        There are many people - there are few goods, here is the deficit formula.

                        You seriously wrote this ??? And there are "many people" here? Deficit is the excess of aggregate demand over aggregate supply. Although there will be a billion people and few goods, if they do not have money, then the goods will not become a shortage. According to your statement, it turns out that since there are few diamonds, and there are a lot of people and there are not enough diamonds for all, diamonds are in short supply. Here it is.)
                        Due to distortions in the economy, but it is not fatal. Nobody was dying of hunger and lack of clothing and the range was growing. In commissions, as far as I remember - to Gorbachev, of course - prices were often even lower than in state trade. We thought it was a second-hand, in modern language. Perhaps in large cities it was not so, but then I lived in shallow laughing. With the collapse of the union, the situation began to change with us.

                        These are all lyrics, and in the USSR they were dying of hunger (hunger of 32-33, and hunger of 46-47, it is clear that after the war, but it was), and in stores, with the "growth of assortment", there were sprat, matches and seaweed on the shelves ...
                      51. Nikolay K
                        Nikolay K 1 November 2015 18: 56
                        -1
                        If you follow your logic, should the state subsidize air transportation? At whose expense, doctors, army, road construction? You understand that in this world nothing arises from emptiness, including money. Well, there is still the option to raise personal income tax. Will it become easier for you if the air tickets get cheaper, but your salary will decrease by the same amount?
                      52. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 21: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Nikolai K
                        You understand that in this world nothing arises from emptiness, including money

                        in today's conditions it couldn’t be possible to do this only when there was a single owner and created the most optimal balance by redistributing financial flows
                      53. Nikolay K
                        Nikolay K 3 November 2015 13: 32
                        0
                        We have Gazprom a monopolist in the market for gas production (more than 90%), its transportation and export (100%). You want to say that Gazprom is working efficiently? Or, moreover, the company knows how to make money out of nothing, just like that and gas is free for everyone?
                      54. Nikolay K
                        Nikolay K 3 November 2015 13: 32
                        0
                        We have Gazprom a monopolist in the market for gas production (more than 90%), its transportation and export (100%). You want to say that Gazprom is working efficiently? Or, moreover, the company knows how to make money out of nothing, just like that and gas is free for everyone?
                      55. 34 region
                        34 region 3 November 2015 00: 51
                        +1
                        Your friend! Today, several oil companies. And gasoline is getting more expensive. Enlighten them about competition. They probably don’t know this.
                      56. Your friend
                        Your friend 3 November 2015 01: 36
                        -1
                        Quote: 34 region
                        Your friend! Today, several oil companies. And gasoline is getting more expensive. Enlighten them about competition. They probably don’t know this.

                        Hahahaha ... What? Today, Gazprom is a monopolist, and gas is getting more expensive. But you probably don’t know this.
                        Did you consult a doctor on my advice? Do not tighten.)))
                  2. perm23
                    perm23 1 November 2015 13: 53
                    +10
                    For comparison, you need to know how many yachts and villas our leaders bought themselves and German. After all, we have always overstated both the cost of fuel, and the cost of airport services and the airline itself. The whole point is this, and then the economy is coming. The most important thing for our businessman is to quickly fill your pocket and spit on everything thicker.
                    1. sabakina
                      sabakina 1 November 2015 14: 19
                      +1
                      Matches in the USSR cost 1 kopeck. How much was the cost of 1 box of matches? About 10 kopecks.
                      1. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 14: 29
                        -7
                        Quote: sabakina
                        Matches in the USSR cost 1 kopeck. How much was the cost of 1 box of matches? About 10 kopecks.

                        So what? It only says that the monopolist in the USSR set what price he wanted.
                        "The cost price of a VAZ car, which was in 1972..1975. This is no more than 1950 rubles.
                        The retail price for the buyer was about 5500 rubles ... 6000 rubles. "
                        So what? It only says that the monopolist in the USSR set what price he wanted.
                      2. nov_tech.vrn
                        nov_tech.vrn 1 November 2015 19: 14
                        +2
                        The State Planning Commission calculated the cost of goods and services in the USSR, and despite the cost, socially significant products were sold cheaply, and what was equated with luxury and were not vital goods, they were sold much more expensive, but with the layout of the annual plan, indicators were always balanced, well, that those who are not able to decipher the feasibility study - a feasibility study, may not understand this and pour in full pseudo-economic terms.
                      3. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 19: 53
                        -2
                        Quote: nov_tech.vrn
                        The State Planning Commission calculated the cost of goods and services in the USSR, and despite the cost, socially significant products were sold cheaply, and what was equated with luxury and were not vital goods, they were sold much more expensive, but with the layout of the annual plan, indicators were always balanced, well, that those who are not able to decipher the feasibility study - a feasibility study, may not understand this and pour in full pseudo-economic terms.

                        Are you talking to me? Where did I pour in "pseudo-economic terms", show me? Where am I "unable to decipher the feasibility study", show me? Let you not ascribe and invent to me what I did not say.
                        What does your passage have to do with the topic of our discussion with the marshal?
                      4. GraveBezKresta
                        GraveBezKresta 1 November 2015 22: 14
                        +3
                        Quote: sabakina
                        How much was the cost of 1 box of matches? About 10 kopecks.

                        Girl, what mushrooms did you eat? The cost of packing a match was less than 1 penny. The USSR produced them in hundreds of millions, so stop raving!
                    2. Your friend
                      Your friend 1 November 2015 14: 25
                      +1
                      Quote: perm23
                      For comparison, you need to know how many yachts and villas our leaders bought themselves and German. After all, we have always overstated both the cost of fuel, and the cost of airport services and the airline itself. The whole point is this, and then the economy is coming. The most important thing for our businessman is to quickly fill your pocket and spit on everything thicker.

                      Do you think German leaders offend themselves?
                      Strange, global airlines fly to our airports and no one overstates them and their prices are lower than those of Russian.
                      So all the same, it's not about leasing and old planes, but about our "leaders", you yourself wrote that.
                      1. Mwg
                        Mwg 1 November 2015 20: 20
                        +2
                        Yeah, they have lower prices. However, the Germans stopped feeding passengers on the airlines, and if you want some water, buy from a Stuart at their price. And you can’t carry with you - anti-terrorism security. And you want to take insurance, but you do not want to take it, but you want to take incomplete. But to put everything in a heap, it doesn’t turn out very cheaply and cheaply.
                      2. Your friend
                        Your friend 1 November 2015 21: 07
                        0
                        Quote: MVG
                        Yeah, they have lower prices. However, the Germans stopped feeding passengers on the airlines, and if you want some water, buy from a Stuart at their price. And you can’t carry with you - anti-terrorism security. And you want to take insurance, but you do not want to take it, but you want to take incomplete. But to put everything in a heap, it doesn’t turn out very cheaply and cheaply.

                        Seriously? Lufthansa flew to Barcelona last NG (with a change, it’s true, but by the way 2 times cheaper than direct Aeroflot). They fed and watered. I don’t know, maybe now what has changed. But we can’t carry water through the inspection either, what a claim to the Germans. By the way, we also have companies that do not feed and do not drink.
                2. Nikolay K
                  Nikolay K 1 November 2015 18: 49
                  +2
                  The declared goal of monopolization is to remove companies with an old fleet from the market. Accordingly, a monopoly with new (expensive) aircraft remains on the market. She will naturally raise ticket prices and quite reasonably, since she has a high cost price. There are no miracles.
                  1. Your friend
                    Your friend 1 November 2015 19: 05
                    -2
                    Quote: Nikolai K
                    The declared goal of monopolization is to remove companies with an old fleet from the market. Accordingly, a monopoly with new (expensive) aircraft remains on the market. She will naturally raise ticket prices and quite reasonably, since she has a high cost price. There are no miracles.

                    As if, if you make one company, then some other people will start working in it, who will stop stealing, those. service and repairs will rise to unattainable heights, and service will be at the level of Qatar Airways.
                3. cuzmin.mihail2013
                  cuzmin.mihail2013 1 November 2015 21: 52
                  +2
                  Maybe you will find out the current price for this notebook, and then you will calculate how much you could buy then and how much now, let’s say the salary of an engineer.
                  But then the state was engaged in this, and now there are a bunch of rather small companies profiting from "privatized" paper mills and printing houses.
                  1. Your friend
                    Your friend 1 November 2015 21: 54
                    -5
                    Quote: cuzmin.mihail2013
                    Maybe you will find out the current price for this notebook, and then you will calculate how much you could buy then and how much now, let’s say the salary of an engineer.

                    One more. Why should I do this? What does this have to do with cost
                    notebooks?
                    But then the state was engaged in this, and now there are a bunch of rather small companies profiting from "privatized" paper mills and printing houses.

                    Do you want to wipe yourself with a newspaper, as did most of the country then, and not with toilet paper?
                    1. 34 region
                      34 region 3 November 2015 01: 30
                      +1
                      Why paper? There is water!
                      1. Your friend
                        Your friend 3 November 2015 01: 37
                        -1
                        Quote: 34 region
                        Why paper? There is water!

                        To the doctor!)
                  2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 21: 57
                    0
                    then more if you take a salary of 30000 thousand
                4. Nikolay K
                  Nikolay K 3 November 2015 13: 43
                  -1
                  Do not confuse capitalist monopoly with the state economy of the USSR. In the first case, the company's goal is to maximize profits and in the vast majority of cases it is achieved by setting high prices. In the second case, the goal of the company is the production of what is prescribed above, the effectiveness or profitability of the production does not matter. Because notebooks can even be distributed free of charge, if ordered, and then they will heat the stoves. We in the USSR had stories when pigs were fed with cheap bread. And heads of state-owned companies strive to steal more, because again, personally, they don’t give a damn about the final financial result. If you have already forgotten the history of the Soviet era, you can look at the current Gazprom. What inevitably comes an economy built not on the principles of efficiency, but on the implementation of someone’s authoritative decisions, we have already seen on the example of the collapse of the USSR. Apparently you liked it, do you want to repeat it again?
            5. Igor Nikonov
              Igor Nikonov 1 November 2015 11: 17
              +6
              You see, we managed to separate just (at least in railway transport) freight and passenger transportation. THIS IS NOW 2 DIFFERENT COMPANIES. When they were in one and the transportation of 4 passengers in the village was compensated. "Conditional name" on a 4-car electric train. Now, the passenger side is heavily unprofitable. "Managers" do not know how to do otherwise and cut routes. or pull government subsidies.
            6. Strashila
              Strashila 1 November 2015 11: 49
              +4
              That's right ... they split up the branches ... they left only revenue parts for themselves, and subsidized and socially significant ones ... while there was one pocket it was not noticeable, expenses were compensated by incomes in other places.
              In Siberia, air travel that now a fixed-route taxi was ... not much more expensive than a bus ... but many times faster.
            7. fennekRUS
              fennekRUS 1 November 2015 13: 36
              +3
              Quote: Enot-poloskun
              Transport for Russia (rail, air, etc.) is not just a branch, but in no small measure a means of ensuring economic growth and development of the country!

              Transport is everything! For any country. This was understood even in ancient Rome, paving the road wherever the legions passed. Efremov was right — without knowledge of history, humanity is doomed to repeat its mistakes.
            8. Lenin
              Lenin 1 November 2015 14: 04
              +4
              Totally agree with you. And I want to add that not only transport, but also all enterprises and industries responsible for the direct security of the country should be under the strict control of the state other than the state - Russia will get tryndets.
            9. Starik72
              Starik72 1 November 2015 14: 59
              +2
              Raccoon-strip. In the last sentence: Transport in Russia, should be under state control, I would add: AND BE STATE.
            10. sssla
              sssla 1 November 2015 16: 04
              +3
              It must be said once and for all: transport in Russia is for people and for the development of the economy. Transport in Russia - should be under state control.

              Everything was --- ruined with the same slogans only about the great "MARKET"!
              Now, too, but at 180 degrees!
            11. 406ppm2gv
              406ppm2gv 1 November 2015 18: 33
              +4
              Enot Poloskun (3)I agree, in view of its peculiarity, Russia, railway, as well as air transport is strategic for the country and, therefore, should be only state!
            12. PSih2097
              PSih2097 1 November 2015 21: 57
              +3
              Quote: Enot-poloskun
              Transport for Russia (rail, air, etc.) is not just a branch, but in no small measure a means of ensuring economic growth and development of the country!

              troops what are you lucky with? transport is a strategic industry under strict state control ...
            13. Sirocco
              Sirocco 2 November 2015 04: 18
              +3
              Quote: Enot-poloskun
              It must be said once and for all: transport in Russia is for people and for the development of the economy. Transport in Russia - should be under state control.

              I would allow you to say a little differently, Transport, and its communications, should relate to strategic objects, because they provide national security. It is enough to recall the state of emergency with refueling (or rather, with failure) of the aircraft of the Russian Armed Forces during the exercises at one of the civil airfields in the Far East several years ago. This is what Entrepreneurship and Private Business leads to. Everything that is in the bowels should belong to the state, and not to a gang of swindlers, the same applies to transport and transportation.
              You just look at the railway transportation, this is a full scribe, the railway hires automobile transport companies to transport them foam plastic, and rolls of linen to replace the railway linen. Scribe, insanity is growing stronger. And what are the wagons, of any type, belonging to such as Kagalymavia? All on "snot" and wire twists. This is how we, gentlemen, live, balancing over the abyss because of the greed of our businessmen.
              A familiar businessman told me somehow. I won’t get up from the couch if the profit is less than 50%.
          2. Private Starley
            Private Starley 1 November 2015 13: 19
            +5
            Yes, for that matter, then everything must be returned to the state, not only the defense industry and aviation ...
            1. perm23
              perm23 1 November 2015 13: 54
              +1
              It's about time.
          3. Starley from the south
            Starley from the south 1 November 2015 15: 53
            +3
            Perhaps the number of domestic flights does not need to be increased, but the fleet should be updated to domestic. The issue of the profitability of domestic air transportation, of course, cannot be resolved right away, but, finally, we need to start producing our own aircraft.
          4. Evgeniy667b
            Evgeniy667b 4 November 2015 04: 01
            0
            Today, if we evaluate transport, and not only, even the military-industrial complex is guilty of this, making a profit at any cost is at the forefront. No wonder now "Kagalymavia" foaming at the mouth are carrying out the idea that the plane died as a result of external damage. They also need to support their image, no matter how blasphemous it may look, otherwise the authorities put an end to their activities. Although Aeroflot is not far ahead. Especially when CEO Saveliev (also a top manager), who really cares for Boeings, and for his own pocket, of course. This is above all. The author of the article is absolutely right, domestic aircraft manufacturers should work, not Boeing and Airbus. I'd like to see the presence of the navy, which was squandered by shipowners who fled from "unwashed Russia", as one of them put it. Part of the former USSR fleet is waiting for its fate to be cut up somewhere in Bangladesh, and the remnants have joined the Mongolian! sea ​​power. And once the fleet was the pride of the country and our flag was respected everywhere! All is not lost on the railway, but there are also unhealthy tendencies. It is not too late to stop them. As for the military-industrial complex, here I have many opponents in the military-industrial complex, but still, as long as there is such a structure as "Oboronexport", our army and navy will not become stronger. Elementary, the replenishment of new weapons in their armed forces is secondary, everything is at the mercy of exports, everyone who is not too lazy to pay. I do not argue, a profitable place, the main thing for the layman is to savor the billions of the parish, he is not interested in anything else. And the fact that instead of the planned "Alligators" that went to Egypt, it will be necessary to extend the service life of worn-out crocodiles - there is almost no word about this. Only then will everyone grieve that the helicopter fall has begun again.
          5. wicked pinnochio
            wicked pinnochio 13 November 2015 18: 33
            0
            Aeroflot killed transporter ahead and ticket prices for Vladivostok residents soared 3 times because of Aeroflot, and if he alone will carry all the money we have for tickets is not enough
        2. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 08: 56
          +9
          Quote: Enot-poloskun
          18 years the plane was operated! And most of them are abroad!

          18 years is not much, but how the machine was monitored here and there is a question
          1. Roman Skomorokhov
            1 November 2015 09: 15
            +8
            If the car has changed the 4 owners for these 18 years ... Draw an analogy with the car. Maybe someone was courting as it should.
            1. Skiff_spb
              Skiff_spb 1 November 2015 09: 41
              +8
              Generally speaking, the analogy with the machine does not work here.

              But if you try, it will look like this: for an airplane 18 years old for a car for 5 years. Yes, old one, yes, soon to change, but still running and running.

              And the service - imagine that you MUST undergo repairs at the official. And on the slightest problem MUST be repaired.

              Yes, repairs can be substandard. But if there is a signature - the person is CRIMINALLY responsible for it.
              1. tomket
                tomket 1 November 2015 12: 42
                -1
                Quote: Skiff_spb
                And the service - imagine that you MUST undergo repairs at the official. And on the slightest problem MUST be repaired.

                But in practice, is that so? Far from it. Take at least scandals with spare parts from China and bu.
                Quote: Skiff_spb
                Yes, repairs can be substandard. But if there is a signature - the person is CRIMINALLY responsible for it.

                Well, now it will be possible to see firsthand the justice of the state of these matters ...
              2. region58
                region58 1 November 2015 17: 27
                0
                Quote: Skiff_spb
                And the service - imagine that you MUST undergo repairs at the official. And on the slightest problem MUST be repaired.

                Moreover, there are technical regulations after what time what units and systems to change, repair, do preventive maintenance, who has the right to do the corresponding work, etc. Everything is very detailed with signatures and seals, passed - accepted. Technique needs to be able to operate ... If you drive an absolutely new Merce in summer tires in winter, then the result is predictable (this is about supposedly bad equipment).
            2. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 10: 08
              +3
              the main thing is exactly how they followed the technique, but in general it is time to introduce limits on "bourgeois" aircraft
            3. Vadim237
              Vadim237 1 November 2015 12: 35
              0
              This aircraft recently underwent a heavy maintenance, it may be that during this check they screwed up.
            4. tomket
              tomket 1 November 2015 12: 40
              +1
              Quote: Banshee
              If the car has changed the 4 owners for these 18 years ... Draw an analogy with the car. Maybe someone was courting as it should.

              If we draw an analogy with a car, then I think it is not in vain that sellers consider it a duty to indicate one owner in auto sales announcements. I think this is an indicator.
          2. glasha3032
            glasha3032 1 November 2015 12: 47
            +3
            21-year-old "IL-86" written off due to old age (resource exhausted) -and 18-year-old, in your opinion, is much younger?
            1. 16112014nk
              16112014nk 1 November 2015 15: 51
              +2
              They decommissioned due to the greed of airlines (high fuel consumption) and increased engine noise, which is why the IL-86 was not allowed into Europe, where the most profitable flights.
              And about the disaster "Watermelon". What if such a version: hackers got into the control of the plane - the computer controls it - and the engines turned on the reverse, then the sharp drop in speed to 180 km / h and the plane crash in the desert can be explained?
              1. glasha3032
                glasha3032 2 November 2015 00: 10
                +3
                Indeed, they were decommissioned because of the greed of the airlines — no one wanted to pay a design bureau for extending the resource to 40000 hours.
        3. donavi49
          donavi49 1 November 2015 09: 42
          +7
          It is time to return the airline industry to state control. Leave 2-3 Airlines. State. One for domestic flights. Others are for foreign.


          And will it give something? Well, besides raising prices (monopoly) and closing unprofitable routes (that is, all small transportation)? For example, hundreds of companies work in the USA, but after a series of sensitive disasters, both due to the fault of pilots and poor maintenance of equipment (the worst catastrophe in the USA was before the 90's - the engine came off on take-off, we figured it out, the technicians optimized the process removed the engine from the wing with the loader together with the pylon, and then pushed the fasteners back - the fasteners cracked, a crack started to grow - the pylon came off, interrupted the hydraulic lines, the wing mechanization was pressed in and because of the distortion of the lifting force they crashed into the hangar), they significantly twisted the nut ki, more control, more reporting, sudden spot checks of both pilots and the technical process.

          It is also necessary to refuse leasing of foreign junk. And do the production of their civilian aircraft.


          This is a very global challenge. Now not a single country in the world (generally in everything) can provide itself with its aircraft. Companies in the USA fly on Embraers, Lierzhet and Airbuses with the Asia-Pacific Region, with a live Boeing. Companies in France fly on Boeing, Asia-Pacific, Embraers with live Airbus.

          Yes, and not the fact that the plane is to blame. Or he can be partially to blame. For example, the Turks crashed an absolutely serviceable plane - the reason was Wasp’s nest pit in the pipes (the technicians didn’t put the plugs), this gave the wrong speed, could not navigate in the clouds and went into a tailspin.
          1. Orionvit
            Orionvit 1 November 2015 13: 20
            +2
            In the states, with hundreds of airlines, only one organization deals with flight safety. And so that no one could put pressure on this structure, it is headed not by some average official, but by the US president. He also has such a position, maybe even a purely nominal one. It seems to be thought to him that there is nothing more to do? But they adopted such a law. And I think that this move had the best effect on flight safety.
        4. bastard
          bastard 1 November 2015 11: 17
          +2
          Quote: Enot-poloskun
          What is this "Kagalymavia"? What the hell is this?

          This is probably a way for officials to throw responsibility on all sorts of "Marmyzhi-Avia", "Kobelyaki-Fly" and "Syktym Wings". Well, kickbacks with levies, of course.
        5. Vladimir 1964
          Vladimir 1964 1 November 2015 12: 03
          +1
          Quote: Enot-poloskun
          It is time to return the airline industry to state control.


          Dear Enot-poloskun, and officially the industry is under the control of the state, and there are several bodies that carry it out. The question is, how is this control carried out? In addition, everyone is well aware that airlines like "Kagalym .." are a priori unable to organize transportation at a level that ensures safety, for the simple reason that its working capital is not enough for all the necessary measures. And the organization of air transportation at the level of appropriate security is an expensive and multifaceted event.
        6. VSC
          VSC 1 November 2015 12: 16
          +1
          They ditched their aircraft industry in order to have a bribe from Boeing and Airbus. Now they say that 18 years for an airplane is not age (they do not remember how it was operated and maintained). And at the Samara Aviation Station it is even worse than in Voronezh: there are no orders, a little repair and renewal of old aircrafts, people ran away, they generally wanted to cover production and give the Bosch plant for warehouses.
        7. SPLV
          SPLV 1 November 2015 12: 29
          +1
          Quote: Enot-poloskun
          It is also necessary to refuse leasing of foreign junk
          And you did not forget that in our country a legislative step has been taken that kills the training of domestic specialists? I mean permission to hire foreign pilots. Everything purposefully moves towards feudalism. Soon there will be no specialists left - there will be no one to educate. The teaching staff is being destroyed and not developing.
        8. The comment was deleted.
        9. The comment was deleted.
        10. andrey70179
          andrey70179 1 November 2015 13: 47
          +5
          Guys !!!! What to guess, just on TV in the news they said that the wreckage of the plane scattered over an area of ​​30 km. What does this mean? Yes, the campaign that it was blown up at a high altitude. Is it logical? If there was a malfunction, he would have fallen to the ground in one "piece" (I apologize for the word), and so .... well, you understand me. One thing is bad .. to hell with it with this iron ..... sorry for people ((((((((((((.
          1. sabakina
            sabakina 1 November 2015 14: 27
            +2
            I also wanted to write about it. There was an opportunity to compare the crash of that Boeing, our 321 and just (damn it, sorry, I do not know how to correctly write) a plane crash.
            It sounds wild that he wrote, but life is life ...
          2. glasha3032
            glasha3032 2 November 2015 00: 14
            +1
            In life, everything happens - the plane could fall apart from overloads.
        11. kot28.ru
          kot28.ru 1 November 2015 14: 52
          +2
          In the year 2012, he went on a business trip from Blagoveshchensk, the Transaero, Boeing, and so, flew away more than a day later due to a plane malfunction, it landed with difficulty, the third time, the landing gear was defective! I flew off as a result, which surpassed from Moscow during the night! In general, it’s better to develop and revive their work, and work for people and we are calmer! Transport workers are all domestic, military aircraft, too, and then caved in for the sake of someone’s business projects and just huckster in the ministries! their time with a broom! There is no Stalin on them!
        12. soxantg39
          soxantg39 1 November 2015 16: 52
          +2
          Quote: Enot-poloskun
          Sick !!!

          This is not the first plane to crash in recent years. I hope the last ...

          It is time to return the airline industry to state control. Leave 2-3 Airlines. State. One for domestic flights. Others are for foreign.

          What is this "Kagalymavia"? What the hell is this? And they are not the only ones ... They rented an old rotten plane, cut the loot, saving on safety!

          18 years the plane was operated! And most of them are abroad!

          It is also necessary to refuse leasing of foreign junk. And do the production of their civilian aircraft.


          Absolutely agree!!! Stop "playing" the market economy, it's time to return the state to the main industries !!! A bunch of private airlines is nonsense !!!
        13. tolan_petrovich
          tolan_petrovich 2 November 2015 11: 25
          +1
          Hello.
          Add: and not only aircraft, but also buses, at least.
        14. Sasha_Sar
          Sasha_Sar 2 November 2015 12: 30
          +2
          It is not so easy to build an airplane, it is possible to destroy the production of aircraft in a few years, for example, the Saratov Aviation Plant. There was a factory and there is no factory (thanks to Mr. Yermishin), for that there was a territory (land) almost in the center of the city. What we have on it, that's right, a hypermarket and skyscrapers and still a lot of land left for development, and there is also an airfield (or rather land). Yes, if you put on rose-colored glasses and imagine that the state gave "dough" for the revival of the plant, where the human resource that will build these aircraft. Ulyanovsk AVIASTAR AU. The whole city was built as a plant and where are 30 Tu 204? Aircraft a year. Super jet vaunted, where? There are orders, but no planes ...
        15. ism_ek
          ism_ek 2 November 2015 12: 55
          0
          Quote: Enot-poloskun
          It is time to return the airline industry to state control. Leave 2-3 Airlines. State. One for domestic flights. Others are for foreign.

          We have a monopolist in the field of railway transportation ....
          Suburban traffic is almost collapsed. Livestock is transported in the best conditions. Electric trains are massively closing .... Traveling to compartment cars is more expensive than flying on an airplane ...
          Destroying competition in aviation is very simple. Going back will be impossible.
      2. volot-voin
        volot-voin 1 November 2015 08: 06
        +8
        Quote: afdjhbn67
        Yes, if I had run .. the problem has long existed and therefore, against the backdrop of the tragedy, the article is especially hard on the nerves ..

        Whatever it is, a terrorist attack or a breakdown, the problem does not disappear. We fly on imported junk, instead of developing our aircraft industry. They handed over such an important industry to hucksters, and they are used to saving on everything, including our security.
        It's time to announce sanctions to the Boeing.
        My deepest condolences to the relatives of the victims, unfortunately anyone can be in their place.
      3. shtanko.49
        shtanko.49 1 November 2015 10: 54
        +4
        I wonder how many Khristenko got kickbacks on the paw for ditching our aircraft industry. And why our government is not doing anything, they would all be gathered on that plane, everyone would cross themselves with relief.
      4. Koshak
        Koshak 1 November 2015 13: 35
        +3
        Quote: afdjhbn67
        the problem has long existed and therefore, against the backdrop of the tragedy, the article is especially hard on the nerves ..

        The article is good, it’s only a pity that things will not go further than discussion on this site. Those officials on whom it all depends are unlikely to enter VO.
      5. Starley from the south
        Starley from the south 1 November 2015 15: 46
        +4
        One obvious conclusion can be drawn from this tragedy - it is necessary to produce and buy domestic aircraft. Of course, this will require significant funds. And the problem is not as simple as it seems (although setting up the production of our own aircraft on the right scale is an extremely complicated task). The problem is servicing our aircraft abroad. Foreign airlines will not let us into their own and service-controlled markets, as they have not allowed to do so far. Therefore, first of all, it is necessary to create favorable conditions (legislative, tax and others) for the operation of our aircraft with us. Our planes should fly on the domestic line and no Boeing and Watermelon! Yes, and domestic carriers need to be enlarged, then the money will be for new planes.
        R.S. Although I am not a supporter of the conspiracy theory, no one excludes the likelihood that during the production of Boeings and Watermelons programs are not sewn into their electronics that, upon signal from a satellite, can destroy some aircraft systems. You should not forget about this either.
      6. Yars
        Yars 1 November 2015 18: 01
        +3
        Quote: afdjhbn67
        Quote: NKVD
        Author, do not run forward carts!

        Yes, if I had run .. the problem has long existed and therefore, against the backdrop of the tragedy, the article is especially hard on the nerves ..

        in the west, too, planes are falling, and what does it mean that they are out of date ?!
        This tragedy smacks of a provocation by "friendly" to us "Western partners", they are very much upset by the successful strikes of Russian aviation on the loyal West "ISIL". It's their style! ! !
      7. Esso
        Esso 1 November 2015 20: 22
        +3
        I decided to speak, in fact the problem is acute. It so happened with the collapse of the Union that all of us beggars were blown up to rake in money, whoever can do it from wherever! Business does not count people, only profit. Medvedev and Putin fly to IL-96. The plane is good and it is often checked. We have a lot of lawlessness in the country, starting from counterfeiting of spare parts for aircraft (which I don’t hear about the last, they solved the problem in the process) to the old foreign rubbish. Our aviation industry has turned into the so-called, we can produce sell for the same hill! Sukhoysuperjet 100, Ms-21, tu-204.
        The tragedy in Tatarstan
        AIR TRAGEDY IN KAZAN. ALL DIED, INCLUDING THE SON OF THE PRESIDENT OF TATARSTAN
        An example of what happens when one of the officials' children dies.
        Epilogue According to the results of the audit conducted after this disaster, Rosaviatsia decided to revoke the certificate of the company’s operator.
        Aeroflot company (do not consider it advertising, the most reliable airline company at the moment, I do not take into account its subsidiaries) The pilot training base has been preserved there. I try to fly with this airline.
        What about other companies, they survive, practically make ends meet and they don’t have money for new planes! No! Everything eats away from taxes, payments of loans and salaries! The state doesn’t really support! There are of course those who just want to profit and shit on safety. As they say everything from leadership policy.
        We have the same circular problem with banks and their crazy interest on loans! Then the strings go to the Central Bank and Putin who was not allowed to privatize him!
        Abroad, banks give loans to residents and private owners within the country from 3-8%. That's where we returned to the money problem. The state should reduce small air carriers. Aeroflot should become a locomotive. (Refused to buy Transaero, it does not need crazy debts and pay on loans) Privatize the Central Bank! It’s strictly for banks: The interest on loans should be minimal, especially for government agencies, whose activities relate to the security of the country and its citizens, these are strategic untouchable things. We live on the economic problem of the West, that’s all the problems we have, starting from falling planes, ( it’s not profitable to produce ourselves), destroyed by agriculture (producing high-quality products is not profitable), stupid USE means poor education, hello Livanov!
        PS is ready to fly quietly with other companies on old airbuses and Boeing, if D.A. is sitting next to me Medvedev, I will be calmer if we die, at least something in our air transportation will change. I’m wildly afraid of flying, but my wife loves it! Why, in order for a small airline to close, an official’s relative or ordinary people should not die for their careless safety attitude .....!
        I really hope that the Petersburgers will not let this matter slip on the brakes. Let the earth be lost to the dead ..... Scary. of course!!!
      8. tank64rus
        tank64rus 1 November 2015 21: 51
        +1
        Foreign planes buy similar small companies at aviakladishchi, where such small companies can buy a plane or, more precisely, auto rubbish at bargain prices. About five years ago after another disaster, even a documentary was shown. Then they forgot to another disaster. Lord, when Christians will be removed from power. After all, they harm as much as they can.
      9. tank64rus
        tank64rus 1 November 2015 21: 51
        +1
        Foreign planes buy similar small companies at aviakladishchi, where such small companies can buy a plane or, more precisely, auto rubbish at bargain prices. About five years ago after another disaster, even a documentary was shown. Then they forgot to another disaster. Lord, when Christians will be removed from power. After all, they harm as much as they can.
      10. The comment was deleted.
      11. red_october
        red_october 2 November 2015 10: 43
        -1
        The specialized ministry of civil aviation is urgently needed, which would be entrusted with the solution of all the safety issues of air travel.
      12. 89043515687
        89043515687 2 November 2015 19: 42
        +1
        It seems that the Americans about these falling planes said ****** our military females are not for them to slog. always these underdeveloped were vile freaks and besides ordinary citizens they have no strength to kill (But they will get an answer according to all the rules of international law ......
      13. Ghenxnumx
        Ghenxnumx 2 November 2015 23: 18
        +1
        In the UAE, the only airline "Emirates Airlines" is state-owned and none of the private companies will be allowed into this industry, and they do not see any monopoly in this.
        It would be nice for us to do so, and not just copy fountains from them.
      14. Insurgent LC
        Insurgent LC 3 November 2015 22: 53
        0
        In my opinion, such a tragedy was already on August 12, 1985. Airliner Boeing 747SR-46 of Japan Airlines in Tokyo, one hundred percent coincidence also operated a Boeing with a damaged tail, but no one draws conclusions, the thirst for money overshadowed everything, and people and the hardest children die
    2. Just BB
      Just BB 1 November 2015 06: 20
      -8
      smile
      You might think, fool what the true cause of the tragedy will tell you
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 08: 58
        +4
        Quote: Just BB
        You might think that they will tell you the true cause of the tragedy

        personally, you personally and I personally could not say anything, neither you nor I have any relation to this, it’s important that the experts understand and draw conclusions
        1. Just BB
          Just BB 1 November 2015 12: 49
          +1
          Had for 15 years and I know how everything is made out ...
          Thanks for the "minus" - the level of competence of the audience good
          1. Vasilenko Vladimir
            Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 13: 04
            0
            what have you had for 15 years ?!
            1. Just BB
              Just BB 1 November 2015 15: 50
              0
              investigations of flight accidents and incidents - sorry, for some reason it was forwarded in a trimmed form
              1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 18: 32
                0
                then you do not need to communicate to me, to you well, if you are in the "cage" you need
          2. perm23
            perm23 1 November 2015 13: 57
            +2
            Put a plus. BUT all the same, since you have had the experience of fighting so that everything comes. Not like that. - that all the same deceive.
            1. sabakina
              sabakina 1 November 2015 14: 31
              +2
              Quote: Just VV
              Had for 15 years and I know how everything is made out ...
              Thanks for the "minus" - the level of competence of the audience good

              I think, right now, not 2000 ... But the truth about the "Kursk" will emerge ...
              1. Just BB
                Just BB 1 November 2015 15: 53
                0
                "Honor of the uniform" - there is such a concept. Here it is "protected" by all sorts of methods
              2. Amurets
                Amurets 2 November 2015 05: 13
                0
                She surfaced a long time ago.
            2. Just BB
              Just BB 1 November 2015 15: 55
              0
              Already got out -"time is over"
    3. dpu
      dpu 1 November 2015 06: 40
      +30
      But LADIES, said that the Yak-42 "is the worst aircraft in the world," when the dead near Yaroslavl "did not cool down." And no investigation has begun yet. Although the fault is 100% of the airport, the company and then the crew. But what does it have to do with the materiel? A fallen A-321 - old junk.
      1. Turkestan
        Turkestan 1 November 2015 09: 00
        +4
        Do you think that 18 years of operation is OLD JUNK ???
        WELL. WELL.
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 1 November 2015 09: 23
          +7
          Do you think that 18 years of operation is OLD JUNK ???
          WELL. WELL.
          - Turkestan

          You are probably not quite up to date. Yes, an airplane can be operated for more than 18 years, BUT everything depends on the strength and durability inherent in it, an hour raid, and the economic development of the state operating the aircraft, its economic power.
          There is an estimated life of the aircraft, which is assigned by the manufacturer, it is calculated in flight hours. Usually it is from 30 to 60 thousand hours. But the operation in our time is carried out according to the "actual state", after which the aviation safety is reduced.
          Usually, government agencies regulate aviation security. For example, in the United States, the Federal Aviation Agency banned the operation of passenger aircraft over the United States with a flying time of more than 60 thousand hours. But these planes are purchased in the United States on the cheap, many countries, including Russia.
          Well-established airlines usually get rid of airliners over 12-15 years old, but these machines continue to be used in third world countries, where airplanes that are 35-40 years old or more are not uncommon.
          So that it is possible to operate aircraft older than 18 years, and more than 35-40 years of operation, but this is the lot of the underdeveloped countries of the Third World, probably to which Russia can already be attributed, judging by the planes on which its citizens are transported.
          1. SPLV
            SPLV 1 November 2015 13: 00
            +4
            Quote: vladimirZ
            So that you can operate aircraft older than 18 years, and more than 35-40 years of operation, but this is the lot of underdeveloped third world countries

            The example is not from civil aviation, but indicative. Remember when the B-52 was produced. And nothing fly. Just the continuation of their operation is associated with a very significant investment. And the private owner does not want to go to great expenses.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. perm23
            perm23 1 November 2015 14: 00
            +2
            Thank you very much, it’s good when there is a knowledgeable person and can correctly explain.
            Yes, in normal countries they clean and in the 3 countries of the world they sell. Of course, a plane can fly a hundred years. With proper care. But best of all is proper care and a new plane.
        2. Stas157
          Stas157 1 November 2015 10: 16
          +4
          Quote: Turkestan
          Do you think that 18 years of operation is OLD JUNK ???
          WELL. WELL.

          So say the former A321 operators, Saudis, Turks, Syrians, who got rid of this junk, obviously in order to get yourself something newer!
        3. tomket
          tomket 1 November 2015 12: 46
          -1
          Quote: Turkestan
          Do you think that 18 years of operation is OLD JUNK ???
          WELL. WELL.

          It turns out falling brand new aircraft? Well then, it’s generally no way .....
      2. Amurets
        Amurets 1 November 2015 12: 42
        +7
        Quote: dpu
        But LADIES, said that the Yak-42 "is the worst aircraft in the world,"

        But DAM understands aviation like a pig in oranges. A lawyer who does not have a penchant for technology, that he understands this. Let him learn how to password protect his iPhone. He would be dragged to court for such statements abroad.
      3. tomket
        tomket 1 November 2015 12: 45
        +5
        Quote: dpu
        But LADIES, said that the Yak-42 "the worst aircraft in the world"

        And there that, charging for an iPhone was not found?
        1. sa-ag
          sa-ag 1 November 2015 13: 00
          +5
          Quote: tomket
          And there that, charging for an iPhone was not found?

          WiFi is missing there :-)
          1. sabakina
            sabakina 1 November 2015 14: 41
            +1
            Modern airplanes are not LI-2, not Cornfield ... Care and money are needed ...
            Chkalov proved with his flight that Russian planes are the most volatile.
    4. The comment was deleted.
      1. saltickov.
        saltickov. 1 November 2015 07: 27
        +4
        here he is the sales functionary himself and whined on a truthful article.
      2. 89043515687
        89043515687 1 November 2015 08: 27
        +3
        Just whining and wheezing from your text rolls over))) laughing
      3. afdjhbn67
        afdjhbn67 1 November 2015 09: 16
        0
        Quote: EGOrkka
        how disgusting it becomes to read.

        So you do not read-the collective farm is voluntary .. wassat
    5. Aksakal_07
      Aksakal_07 1 November 2015 07: 32
      +3
      You suggest to wait until the next plane crash? It turns out that among the authors of our forum there is a whole fan club of defenders of imported air junk!
      1. Down House
        Down House 1 November 2015 09: 00
        +3
        Quote: Aksakal_07
        It turns out that among the authors of our forum there is a whole fan club of defenders of imported air junk!

        I doubt that "imported junk" has fans, but there are people who understand the obvious things: any plane must initially be profitable for the carrier.
        Therefore, our planes are absolutely necessary, but for them to be bought (including foreign carriers) they must not be inferior to Western competitors in the same noise / environmental friendliness, otherwise there will be no sense in them.
        1. Camel
          Camel 1 November 2015 09: 39
          +1
          they should not be inferior to Western competitors in the same noise / environmental friendliness otherwise they will not be of any use.

          The European regulations do not apply on domestic routes, so the aircraft are not limited in terms of noise and ecology. On external lines, yes, you can start up quiet and "environmentally friendly".
          1. Down House
            Down House 1 November 2015 09: 47
            0
            Quote: Camel
            The European regulations do not apply on domestic routes, so the aircraft are not limited in terms of noise and ecology. On external lines, yes, you can start up quiet and "environmentally friendly".

            That's exactly what:
            The volume of domestic traffic is not enough to pay off the development and production of a truly modern aircraft.
            It is initially not profitable for carriers to buy an aircraft capable of operating only in a single region.
            1. Vasilenko Vladimir
              Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 10: 18
              0
              Quote: Down House
              The volume of domestic traffic is not enough to pay off the development and production of a truly modern aircraft.
              and in numbers you can justify
              1. Down House
                Down House 1 November 2015 10: 41
                -1
                Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                and in numbers you can justify

                They will not approve, but I read about 250 regional aircraft.
                This is only enough to recoup a single aircraft, and still need to make a profit, and we also have several manufacturers of these same aircraft.
                And this is the problem - they cannot sell so many planes to recoup their production - it is imperative to enter foreign markets.
                1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 10: 59
                  +1
                  Quote: Down House
                  They will not approve, but I read about 250 regional aircraft.
                  This is only enough to recoup a single plane

                  So what?!
                  But how many planes are required in the domestic market? !!!
                  Quote: Down House
                  And this is the problem - they cannot sell so many planes to recoup their production - it is imperative to enter foreign markets.

                  and what does this mean? !!!
                  1. Down House
                    Down House 1 November 2015 12: 48
                    0
                    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                    But how many planes are required in the domestic market? !!!

                    Wrote about 250.
                    Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                    and what does this mean? !!!

                    From the fact that the demand for aircraft in the domestic market is less than the amount needed for the development of a truly new aircraft to pay off.
                    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 13: 13
                      0
                      Quote: Down House
                      Wrote about 250.

                      Are you seriously?! can source
                      1. Down House
                        Down House 1 November 2015 13: 47
                        0
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        can source

                        Is Aeroflot suitable?
                        161 aircraft and 23,6 million passengers last year.
                        Of the 125 destinations, only 51 are located in the CIS.
                        Catch the logic?
                2. sa-ag
                  sa-ag 1 November 2015 11: 02
                  +2
                  Quote: Down House
                  in order to recoup their production, it is imperative to enter foreign markets.

                  or can the manufacturer lease the airline, then the financial burden will not be as burdensome as with the purchase of a new plane
                  1. Down House
                    Down House 1 November 2015 12: 51
                    0
                    Quote: sa-ag
                    can the manufacturer lease the airline

                    Well, this is already done for a long time.
            2. perm23
              perm23 1 November 2015 14: 03
              0
              Come on . Well, how much everything can be measured by profit. How long we will have it. Profitable not profitable. It is necessary. So you have to do it. And your planes and excellent pilots, and may I be foreign aircraft, but good and new.
              1. afdjhbn67
                afdjhbn67 2 November 2015 04: 02
                +1
                Quote: perm23
                Come on . Well, how much everything can be measured by profit.

                At least a strange question for those living under the capitalist system ...
          2. Vasilenko Vladimir
            Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 10: 10
            +6
            Quote: Camel
            On domestic lines, the European regulation is not valid

            it seems to me that the geo-regulation sought and achieved one goal: the destruction of our aircraft industry and the screwing of their equipment, to introduce reciprocal regulations
            1. sa-ag
              sa-ag 1 November 2015 10: 30
              +3
              Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
              it seems to me that the geo-regulation sought and achieved one goal: the destruction of our aircraft industry and the screwing of their equipment, to introduce reciprocal regulations

              But maybe something else? For example, a reduction in noise and emissions is associated with a more complete combustion of fuel and an increase in power, therefore, you can take more passengers, at a reduced fuel consumption, and hence get a big profit
              1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 10: 33
                0
                Do you think that Europe cares about the profits of our airlines?
                1. sa-ag
                  sa-ag 1 November 2015 10: 59
                  +2
                  Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                  Do you think that Europe cares about the profits of our airlines?

                  No, of course, they were concerned about the profit of their companies, which is why they introduced requirements, forcing manufacturers to improve technology, the USSR was behind in this regard, so its liners were forced to leave the European market
                  1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 11: 08
                    +2
                    only with all this, the prices for air transportation in the USSR were several times lower
                    Alma-Ata Moscow 82 rubles
                    1. sa-ag
                      sa-ag 1 November 2015 11: 37
                      0
                      Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                      Alma-Ata Moscow 82 rubles

                      I would not say that this is a low price
                      1. afdjhbn67
                        afdjhbn67 1 November 2015 11: 53
                        -1
                        Quote: sa-ag
                        I would not say that this is a low price

                        I agree 86 rubles Ulan-Ude - Moscow .. I remember a tangible hit on a skinny wallet ..
                      2. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 12: 16
                        +1
                        and how much is now and what is the real salary in Ulan Ude
                      3. afdjhbn67
                        afdjhbn67 1 November 2015 12: 44
                        0
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        and how much is now and what is the real salary in Ulan Ude

                        Volodya, now he costs about 16 thousand rubles if one way Well, the average salary is declared 35 thousand, but for some reason no one believes and laughs nervously ... (the average temperature in the hospital is with the morgue)
                        Something then the site to hang began to overheat from emotions, it somehow broke through to answer hi
                      4. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 12: 49
                        +4
                        that is, Aunt Dusya, a cleaner, will definitely not fly to Maaskwa with her child without it.

                        But after the Union, the student could fly off the discount was 30%, for schoolchildren 50
                        By the way, I asked not the middle one, but the real one
                      5. afdjhbn67
                        afdjhbn67 1 November 2015 13: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        By the way, I asked not the middle one, but the real one

                        My general is to blame, I am correcting myself - the average HBZ, probably 15-20 tr ... recourse
                      6. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 13: 28
                        +1
                        it turns out that with the union and one airline ticket prices were cheaper?
                      7. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 12: 13
                        0
                        compare with today, by the way the school cost 40
                      8. sa-ag
                        sa-ag 1 November 2015 12: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        compare with today

                        What to compare with? For example, an EasyJet ticket from London to Rome costs an average of £ 60
                      9. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 12: 50
                        +1
                        let's not compare buses with wings
                    2. a housewife
                      a housewife 1 November 2015 20: 21
                      0
                      Salary in the USSR postal operator or kindergarten teacher.
                    3. a housewife
                      a housewife 1 November 2015 20: 21
                      0
                      Salary in the USSR postal operator or kindergarten teacher.
                      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 21: 15
                        +1
                        compare with the salary of a postal operator today
            2. Down House
              Down House 1 November 2015 10: 44
              +1
              Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
              The regulation sought and achieved one goal: the destruction of our aviation industry

              No, this is a consequence of the global practice of the struggle for the environment.
              And these are not only such trends in the aircraft industry, but the same trends in the automotive industry.
              1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 11: 00
                +3
                Quote: Down House
                global environmental practices.

                Are you seriously?!
                as a rule, grandmothers and not ecology stand behind all this struggle
                1. Down House
                  Down House 1 November 2015 12: 56
                  0
                  Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                  as a rule, grandmothers and not ecology stand behind all this struggle

                  And this too, but specifically aircraft manufacturers from this have not a penny.
                  1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                    Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 13: 29
                    +1
                    have more like they have, especially us swami
                    1. Down House
                      Down House 1 November 2015 13: 49
                      -1
                      Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                      especially us swami

                      Us?!
                      How?!
                      They never even heard about us and don’t want to know anything! Calm down! ))))
                      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
                        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 15: 47
                        +1
                        you see, they didn’t hear, but they have, but the technique reached the point
                      2. Down House
                        Down House 1 November 2015 16: 03
                        +1
                        Quote: Vasilenko Vladimir
                        you see, they didn’t hear, but they have, but the technique reached the point

                        Well, tell the truck faster how exactly they do it, otherwise nobody knows except you.
        2. complete zero
          complete zero 1 November 2015 11: 18
          +6
          - "initially it should be profitable" ... yes, it should NOT be profitable, but RELIABLE and SIMPLE, so that the pilot in a sudden situation would not rummage through notebooks like a schoolboy in search of causes and their elimination, but KNEW how to do it ... profitability a corpse is not needed ... (reliability is the main criterion of all our Ilov, Anov, Carcass) reliability and simplicity
    6. alekc73
      alekc73 1 November 2015 07: 41
      +8
      Roman is right. The problem is old. Where profit rules and money for human life rules. They will buy western auto trash instead of new domestic aircraft, because it’s profitable. Money in the first place is the law of the market.
      1. perm23
        perm23 1 November 2015 14: 06
        0
        That's right, not everything needs to be measured by profit.
    7. vovanpain
      vovanpain 1 November 2015 09: 01
      +14
      Quote: NKVD
      Author, do not run ahead of the cart! The investigation has just begun, there are still no conclusions.

      Nobody runs ahead of the engine, rather, on the contrary, the author beats all the bells and has long been beating at the position that now exists in civil aviation.
    8. Alekseev
      Alekseev 1 November 2015 09: 09
      +7
      Quote: NKVD
      Author, do not run forward carts!

      The author does not run ahead of any carts.
      But the matter is somewhat more complicated. During the years of perestroika, we had a significant lag in the development of competitive commercial aviation. Yes, and organizational team. Indeed, why dozens of weak airlines that do not fully meet the requirements of this highly responsible industry?
      And IL-96, the plane is good, but outdated, alas. On the machines of this class now put not 4 engine, and two ... Here's your efficiency, and payload. We, unfortunately, do not produce engines of this class ...
      Tu-204 is more competitive. BUT and it is 5 tons heavier than the A-321 with the same passenger capacity. So much for the same end and the same place.
      Could this car be upgraded? In theory, probably yes. But in practice in the 90s - this is unlikely ...
      Now, as far as the fleet is concerned, we are trying to catch up.
      Our hopes are the MS-21 and Superjet, the development on the basis of IL-96 of a new range of composites with motors based on the technologies acquired when working on the PD-14 project.
      May God grant success.
      And airlines like the same "Flight" that stuck at one time in Voronezh and others like that should be driven in three necks.
      By the way, all over the world in such a current case the airline must pay substantial compensation to relatives. Will Kalamavia, which does not have even a dozen of liners, do this?
      1. Roman Skomorokhov
        1 November 2015 09: 20
        +1
        Quote: Alekseev
        And airlines like the same "Flight" that stuck at one time in Voronezh and others like that should be driven in three necks.


        "Flight" flew off. Already happy.

        Quote: Alekseev
        And IL-96, the plane is good, but outdated, alas. On the machines of this class now put not 4 engine, and two ... Here's your efficiency, and payload. We, unfortunately, do not produce engines of this class ...


        It's a shame that they do not. BUT: you can, of course, buy engines. It is still cheaper than the whole plane. And so much dough does not float abroad.
        1. evge-malyshev
          evge-malyshev 1 November 2015 11: 13
          +1
          Quote: Banshee
          You can, of course, engines and buy


          Better yet, develop. True, for the future.
      2. cesar65
        cesar65 1 November 2015 10: 13
        0
        Quote: Alekseev
        And IL-96, the plane is good, but outdated, alas.

        But the A-321 is not outdated? 18 flew for years, and when the first sample flew? The first flight of the 1987. How do you think the new one? If the IL-96 had been operated as much time, there would have been modifications as the Tu-154 had been modified at one time.
        1. Alekseev
          Alekseev 1 November 2015 10: 49
          +5
          Quote: cesar65
          But the A-321 is not out of date?

          You read a book, that is a comment, but, unfortunately, you don’t perceive. No.
          Once again about "obsolete". Here the years are not decisive.
          Here is another. Tu-214 weighs about 60 tons (empty). A-321 about 50. Passengers take the same.
          Each ton of weight is extra kerosene, and now it costs 32-36 rubles. per liter.
          Why is that? However, the manufacturing technology is of varying degrees.
          The same applies to the IL-96.
          Four motors with systems can't weigh lighter than two
          But that's not all.
          MOT of our cars due to a number of reasons, including a small series, is by no means cheaper than Airbus and Boeing.
          In general, the problem is complex. It is not for nothing that only two companies massively produce mainline aircraft in the USA and the EU.
          This is not just the squandering and sabotage of "individual civilians." Here general level of development many industries need to raise. What they are trying to do now through the projects PD-14, MS-21 and, in part, the Superjet.
        2. evge-malyshev
          evge-malyshev 1 November 2015 11: 18
          0
          Quote: cesar65
          If the IL-96 was operated as much time, there would be modifications, as the Tu-154 was modified at one time.

          and IL-62
        3. Vadim237
          Vadim237 1 November 2015 12: 40
          0
          Actually, the A 321 that crashed was put into operation in 1996, and 18 years of operation for airliners is normal.
          1. perm23
            perm23 2 November 2015 12: 27
            0
            Only probably the director of this airline does not go to Merce who is 18 years old. A plane that has already been sold more than once before cannot be normal.
      3. Awaz
        Awaz 1 November 2015 10: 17
        +6
        I'm not a big specialist in aviation, of course, but in the same TU 204, excess weight is most likely associated with safety and durability. As I remember the Superjet project was drawn on a Boeing, but ours had to completely revise it due to the lack of a safety margin. That is, along the way, everything was "drawn" on the maximum possible minimum tolerances. But in the USSR they always knew how to make gliders for airplanes and I do not think that they could not have brought the TU 204 or Il 96 to more or less decent performance. About engines: even in the most difficult post-war years, when the Cold War flared up, the USSR managed to buy licenses for the production of Rolls Royce jet engines for MIGs .. There are probably enough engineers who would then be able to keep the quality and parameters of these units at the proper level and modernize them according to the realities of progress.
        1. complete zero
          complete zero 1 November 2015 11: 13
          0
          Mikoyan did not buy them, but won billiards with a representative (or director Royce))))
          1. Awaz
            Awaz 1 November 2015 11: 57
            +1
            Well, I also heard such a version ... But still, we acted honestly, unlike the Americans, who not only steered the engines but also the plane itself ..
            1. complete zero
              complete zero 1 November 2015 12: 31
              0
              How much do I remember with the Me-262?
        2. aleksandrs95
          aleksandrs95 1 November 2015 11: 14
          0
          The main thing in our aircraft industry is avionics and engines. The glider is very good, and if you put the composite wing without assembly and hydraulics, it's just fantastic.
          1. complete zero
            complete zero 1 November 2015 12: 32
            0
            more (to your written) hydraulics
        3. aleksandrs95
          aleksandrs95 1 November 2015 11: 14
          0
          The main thing in our aircraft industry is avionics and engines. The glider is very good, and if you put the composite wing without assembly and hydraulics, it's just fantastic.
      4. glasha3032
        glasha3032 1 November 2015 13: 01
        +4
        4 engines "IL-96" give me, as a passenger, confidence in a happy ending of the flight, especially if you need to fly across the ocean. Examples of the fall of "Airbus" with 2 engines are enough.
    9. Roman Skomorokhov
      1 November 2015 09: 10
      +1
      Quote: NKVD
      Author, do not run forward carts!


      In your opinion, you have to wait until a couple of planes fall, right? Or hope that data about a terrorist attack or a rocket leaks from somewhere?
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 1 November 2015 09: 28
        +2
        In our opinion, it is necessary at the legislative level to introduce the responsibility of all those involved from below to the top. And the higher the position, the higher the measure of responsibility and the higher the level of punishment.
        1. gunya
          gunya 1 November 2015 15: 57
          +1
          Amur (2) RU

          In our opinion, it is necessary at the legislative level to introduce the responsibility of all those involved from below to the top. And the higher the position, the higher the measure of responsibility and the higher the level of punishment.


    10. guzik007
      guzik007 1 November 2015 09: 37
      +1
      Actually, the author tried to say something completely different, if you didn’t understand.
    11. Siberian1965
      Siberian1965 1 November 2015 09: 50
      +1
      The conclusion is long-standing and unequivocal - it is necessary to build YOUR aircraft, regardless of the results of the investigation !!
      1. Oprychnik
        Oprychnik 1 November 2015 09: 53
        +1
        100% agree with you, Roman! Yesterday, my son and I discussed this topic in the same vein.
    12. gunya
      gunya 1 November 2015 10: 39
      +2
      NKVD(1)SU

      Author, do not run ahead of the cart! The investigation has just begun, there are still no conclusions.


      Is it too late to run, or will you deny that instead of reviving the domestic airfield, we feed a foreign one and actually fly on a charge?
      It's time to take up the mind!
    13. evge-malyshev
      evge-malyshev 1 November 2015 10: 39
      +2
      Quote: NKVD
      no conclusions yet


      And what conclusions do you want to wait?
      The author has already drawn some conclusions, including: "Russia needs a fleet of new domestic aircraft. The aircraft builders of Russia, and not the officials involved in contracts for the supply of air junk from the bounty of the West, should feed on the renewal of the aircraft fleet."
    14. evge-malyshev
      evge-malyshev 1 November 2015 10: 39
      0
      Quote: NKVD
      no conclusions yet


      And what conclusions do you want to wait?
      The author has already drawn some conclusions, including: "Russia needs a fleet of new domestic aircraft. The aircraft builders of Russia, and not the officials involved in contracts for the supply of air junk from the bounty of the West, should feed on the renewal of the aircraft fleet."
      1. BMW
        BMW 1 November 2015 12: 36
        +1
        A little off topic, but essentially.
        I would also like to focus on the moral and ethical behavior during the catastrophe of our valiant media, and in particular the main news channel "Russia-24".
        Three previous hours, before the final presentation of the information about the plane crash, different versions of what was happening were broadcast, sometimes contradicting each other. In particular, from the initial loss of communication, to the crash that occurred for various reasons. I was especially outraged by the information submitted 5-10 minutes before the finally confirmed information about the crash, which was that the plane was in Turkish airspace. Really it was impossible to refrain from "savoring" what happened, and at that moment without having practically any reliably confirmed information.
        I’m just scared to imagine what was happening at that moment in the souls of loved ones, from complete despair to relief from joy, and vice versa.
        1. perm23
          perm23 1 November 2015 14: 08
          +1
          That's for sure. The main thing is to give info on all channels. And drive her. And how are they to people what.
    15. go21zd45few
      go21zd45few 1 November 2015 12: 17
      +2
      The question is, will they bring the whole truth about the tragedy after the investigation, or will they be written off to the crew again. Smart people have long warned of the abandonment of foreign aircraft since maintenance personnel must undergo retraining, avionics and electronics all according to Western standards. Where is the guarantee that the equipment failure was not provoked by interested parties.
    16. ArhipenkoAndrey
      ArhipenkoAndrey 1 November 2015 12: 23
      +3
      If it were a domestic-made cart, then it would have already been banned for use in Russia, the most powerful lobby in the Duma and the government, which is kept at the salary of Boeing and Airbus, will never miss domestic aircraft in sufficient quantities for release, one Serdyukov-Taburetkin in Rostec set to oversee aviation, which is worth it, and our machines are no worse than imported, and in some ways even better, timely modernization and improvement would put everything in their place, but in Russia there was no time for this, then perestroika, then the construction of a gloomy democracy, what kind of planes are there, Medvedev’s order alone after the Yak-42 crash was worth what, in general, the creation of a state-owned airline buying domestic cars with branches all over Russia is long overdue and there is no alternative to this, or flying in constantly decreasing fleets of aircraft with huge service life and no less enormous risk for passengers.
    17. efimich41
      efimich41 1 November 2015 12: 39
      +2
      Author, do not run ahead of the cart! The investigation has just begun, there are still no conclusions.

      It looks like you are against the restoration of the Russian aircraft industry. The author raised the right topic. Aircraft must be built, ground aviation services must be provided with qualified technical personnel, pilots and navigators must be trained, etc. All this is possible only if there is a single carrier under the leadership and supervision of the state. To the author of the article "+".
    18. Starik72
      Starik72 1 November 2015 14: 51
      +1
      Igor. The author is right for all 100%% !!! And I am not a specialist in this industry completely agree with him!
    19. starshina78
      starshina78 1 November 2015 15: 07
      +3
      The author writes correctly, and he is not in a hurry, but only supplements what he said earlier. What will happen now can be predicted, and you do not need to be a visionary. We go through all this every time Russian civilian ships crash. The first thing will be a meeting of the Government, where they will talk about the shortcomings in civil aviation. The second will be a meeting with the President, where it will once again be said about the production of Russian aircraft. That's it, that's all over. They'll talk a little more on TV - box, and then everything will go on as before. There will again be reports about the purchase of the next Airbus and Boeing, and everyone will forget what they talked about at the meetings in the Government and at the President's. Because by this time the Airbus and Boeing employees will visit whomever they need, leave whomever needs a "diplomat" with a nth sum, and again it will turn out that our Silt and Carcasses are of poor quality, consume a lot of fuel, etc. .P. ... Tired !!! How many more people have to be killed so that the Government finally begins to do business, not nonsense.
    20. Vladimir65
      Vladimir65 1 November 2015 16: 28
      +1
      At one time, when the Yak-42 crashed in Yaroslavl and a whole sports team died, Mr. Medvedev, long before the end of the investigation, ordered to ban the use of these aircraft and organize the purchase of foreign abroad. And now, when the A-321 crashed, all the high-ranking bureaucrats hid their heads in the sand. Yes, we need our own aviation and domestic aircraft.
    21. ishkovam
      ishkovam 1 November 2015 18: 22
      +1
      Yes?! The cart is generally long in the ditch. There is nothing to run before. These are the long-known FACTS. Boeings - goners of old people - are scared to sit in them. I remember (it’s good to remember) how calmly I flew our years that way 30 years ago It was reliable. I support the author as a whole.
    22. Army1
      Army1 1 November 2015 20: 04
      0
      Kogalym (hunt. Kogym - black spot) That's why call it that
    23. igor.borov775
      igor.borov775 2 November 2015 15: 24
      +1
      Hi!! You did not understand the author correctly. If you are in the know, please explain to everyone who reads the site. WHAT IT IS FOR ORDERING MAINTENANCE OF THE AIRCRAFT. A very clear prospect for the passenger who is buying a ticket hoping for quality service. And now a little about the accidents. Remember the drowned Bulgaria. How much noise and remember the result. How many court have been jailed. This is the situation in China. Twenty-five people sat in court, among them there were many officials from the Shipping Company. In addition, several articles were additionally added to river and sea transport, gaps in legislation were taken into account, and liability was clearly specified for what the official is responsible for what the company is .. And we have. Everything is fine. Now bankrupt is a big company, but now they are talking about the same with might and main. Leasing machines have non-native parts taken from other machines of the same company. But we, ordinary passengers, thought that there shouldn’t be such a thing in principle. And how then to trust our officials from transport. If this is news for them. In principle, we have a major catastrophe in transport that brings out many problems that clearly manifest blatant impunity. So how do you understand the service ordered. In Samara, they say the board went through those services now they say no it was not ordered. That's how they carry us.
    24. cherkas.oe
      cherkas.oe 2 November 2015 15: 37
      0
      Quote: NKVD
      Author, do not run ahead of the cart! The investigation has just begun, there are still no conclusions.

      Run do not run. We are the second largest number of air crashes after the states, despite the fact that the flight intensity is several tens of times lower. Does this tell you something?
    25. THE_SEAL
      THE_SEAL 2 November 2015 16: 58
      +1
      NKVD, the problem is complex. We, from the filing of such as Khristenko, buy air junk that flew off wherever possible. Small companies save on everything by squeezing all of their aircraft. Security is at stake.
      Still, air transportation should be completely under state control.
    26. cyberhanter
      cyberhanter 2 November 2015 18: 13
      0
      The question is not in the investigation of the reasons, but in principle.
  2. shinobi
    shinobi 1 November 2015 05: 46
    +6
    Reducing to one airline, however, is overkill. But to minimize, say, one company per region with tight control from the center. Well, or as regional units of Aeroflot. And your planes. Especially on domestic routes.
    1. TVM - 75
      TVM - 75 1 November 2015 06: 06
      +11
      It was reduced to one company, so that there was someone to ask, so that it could organize aircraft maintenance and pilot training. At the regional level, this is not possible. Right now, higher education can be obtained at universities in every gateway. For aviation, such a training and service system is simply unacceptable.
      1. obskoyd
        obskoyd 1 November 2015 06: 57
        +21
        The main problem is that current higher education is characterized by the presence of a piece of paper, and not by education itself.
        1. SSR
          SSR 1 November 2015 07: 34
          +7
          Quote: obskoyd
          The main problem is that current higher education is characterized by the presence of a piece of paper, and not by education itself.

          How many incidents do uzbekiston aba yullpri (fig. Pronounce the name) have turkmeniston, and kazakhstan have breebolt hub yulari? And Belarusians and ..... You can go on for a long time ... We must take our airline owners and their founders with a fingernail, and first of all, the law should punish not only directors but also the founders. Founders set the tone for the whole company.
          1. makarick
            makarick 1 November 2015 09: 20
            +3
            Uzbekistan Airways. Translation: air (havo) routes. Lines (yul-rub. Road. Line. Yullari-plural. Number. Uzbekistan is understandable. This is a state-owned company. Therefore, there is more to the order. By the way, only new planes are bought. I know for sure because brother ground engineer.
          2. makarick
            makarick 1 November 2015 09: 23
            +2
            I’ll add that airplanes (GVF) in Uzbekistan are based only in Tashkent.
      2. venaya
        venaya 1 November 2015 07: 09
        +1
        Quote: TVM - 75
        It is reduced to one company, so that there is someone to ask ...

        "Who to ask"- it will be if there are hundreds of companies. It's another matter that the human psyche is so arranged that it remembers well no more than six subjects, objects (remember the size of the department), then the optimal number of companies, it is desirable to have no more than six. And from this number too The presence of only one company, you know, there is no one to ask from either, since there is no competition and in this case even greater misunderstandings are possible.
      3. vitls
        vitls 1 November 2015 12: 26
        -5
        That's right, but sausages need 2 varieties - doctoral and cervelat. And cars - Lada and Volga, well, the military is still UAZ.
        Well, that was all, it was, we see the result. Competition is GOOD, but competition within the framework of the law with the control of state bodies over its implementation. No competition, no development. no quality service. What for? I am ONE in the market, all the same, everyone is FORCED to bring me money.
        1. Vasilenko Vladimir
          Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 13: 01
          +7
          Quote: vitls
          That's right, but sausages need 2 varieties - doctoral and cervelat.

          Apparently, you only know about sausage in the USSR from the words of the then "starving" dissidents
          By the way, I agree on two varieties, the main thing is that of that quality
          Quote: vitls
          What for? I am ONE in the market, all the same, everyone is FORCED to bring me money.

          stupidity, a question in goals and objectives
          1. perm23
            perm23 1 November 2015 14: 12
            +7
            Better than 2 varieties of sausage than 100 varieties of incomprehensible what made. And about competition, no need to listen to the wise guys from the HSE. Competition is not a panacea.
        2. bastard
          bastard 1 November 2015 21: 56
          +6
          Quote: vitls
          That's right, but sausages need 2 varieties - doctoral and cervelat. And cars - Lada and Volga, well, the military is still UAZ.

          I personally do not need such a variety of sausages, as now. Better a little, but from meat. These are fairy tales of liberal majorities such as Shevchuk, Weller or Orlushi that dogs and cats did not eat Soviet sausage. They ate and how! In Soviet times, when I walked past the store, I could tell by smell whether they brought fresh sausage or not. And now you go to the store - there are hundreds of varieties of sausages, but there is no proper smell. By the way, in the 70s sausages in stores were free, they took 200-300 g and cut, the deficit of these products began 3-4 years before the death of Leonid Brezhnev, when the food program was adopted until the 90th year, and think sabotage or not. The bastard sellers used to drink real sour cream with real kefir, and powdered milk was sold in the form of only powder, from milk, by the way.
          Regarding foreign cervelates and salami: representatives of the Soviet trade mission bought only the highest grade food abroad, because they believed that it was useless for a Soviet person to eat that compound feed that is now being fed to Russians like cattle, this product, naturally, fell into the category of a deficit and, as a result, became an object of envy and corruption, because it was bought a little. But I got along with loin, ham and "Ocean" pasta made from natural crab and shrimp meat (state price - 52 kopecks / 0.5 kg or per kilo, I don't remember). As for 2 varieties of sausages, dear sir, you were misinformed, fell in love with, so to speak.
          The assortment of foreign (Western, non-socialist countries) cigarettes was not excessive, but it was real tobacco, and not what it is now: Pall Mall, Salem, Dunhill, Ambassador, Camel, Bond, Winston, Marlboro and other lesser-known brands lay on the shelves in cafes and bars, and even in our grocery store, but they were taken tightly, the price was 1 ruble, from the beginning of the 80s - 1r. 50 kopecks About "Partagas" and "Ligeros" (Cuba) I will modestly keep silent, they were lying almost everywhere, they were hefty strong, cigar tobacco, however. But in all the stores there were Cuban cigars in some kind of aluminum pencil cases, something 60-65 kopecks, a little expensive, but if you forget it periodically, it was enough for a day. There were also domestically produced cigars, I smoked pogar "Falcon" and "Pogar". Now this is the lot of the elect.
          Okay, enough about the eater and cigars. move on to the cars.
          I didn't really like Zhiguli and Muscovites, but I drove. I liked the "Volga" and, as soon as there was a moment - got behind the wheel of "Volzhanka - 3102". The car is simple, like a bicycle, strong, it was enough for me. Repair can be done with pliers, a hammer, and, of course, the magic word, no processors. UAZ, especially the "loaf" (not in the current tyap-lyapov performance), I consider a masterpiece of ingenious simplicity. If you don’t suffer from a handshake and you know how to use it correctly, you’ll have enough for life. I don't like to depend on services and the local razvodilov. Now I am without a wheelbarrow, circumstances, but I want to take just the old "loaf", carburetor, comfort for me is the second thing, I am not spoiled, although I also drove foreign cars that were not rotten and even new (there was one).
          Well, okay, boyars. Be healthy! hi
        3. perm23
          perm23 2 November 2015 12: 34
          +4
          You remembered the Soviet era. I also remembered - the competition is there. At the entrance to the market, 7-10 grandmothers were sitting and selling seeds and that someone was lowering the price of them. Not all of them sold at the same price. Businessmen will always agree. And an example when my grandmother went to sell the fish we caught and decided to sell cheaper, everyone around who sold flew, or sell at our price, or even get out of here. That’s all your good in competition. All this lies and the tales of false democrats about competition, so that we can powder our brains. For 20 years we have heard the market come and put everything in its place.
    2. obskoyd
      obskoyd 1 November 2015 06: 53
      +16
      There is no search, in Soviet times Aeroflot existed and coped with all transportation, as did the Ministry of Railways (now the Russian Railways).
      1. Down House
        Down House 1 November 2015 09: 05
        -4
        Quote: obskoyd
        Aeroflot existed in Soviet times

        It existed, but we are no longer in the Soviet era and no one will launch airplanes "free of charge" anymore - it's time to adopt new rules.
        1. BMW
          BMW 1 November 2015 13: 12
          +1
          Quote: Down House
          it's time to accept the new rules.

          Who establishes or imposes these rules?
          We live in our own country and we must establish the rules for ourselves and implement them. The issue is performance, not the number of companies. It makes no difference one company or several if the state sets the tariffs. You are not against the monopoly of energy production and energy sales.
          1. Down House
            Down House 1 November 2015 15: 25
            -3
            Quote: bmw
            Who establishes or imposes these rules?

            Constitution.
            We have a free capitalist state and we cannot de facto prohibit airlines from acquiring imported aircraft.
            Quote: bmw
            We live in our own country and we must establish the rules for ourselves and implement them.

            For God's sake.
            I’ll just repeat once again that the volumes of our domestic transportation are not enough to pay back the production of new equipment.
            1. perm23
              perm23 2 November 2015 12: 38
              0
              We have a huge volume of domestic traffic. We do not know our country. We do not travel on it due to the fact that there is no traffic. You can pay back. Just do not evaluate everything only profit. We must also think about people. there would be flights everywhere and inexpensively. people would fly with might and main. And so now.
              1. Down House
                Down House 3 November 2015 09: 03
                0
                Quote: perm23
                We do not travel on it due to the fact that there is no traffic

                I travel - but by car.
                I don’t travel by plane because it’s boring and expensive.
                And more expensive because no one flies. Either they are not interested, or they save on the train.
          2. sa-ag
            sa-ag 1 November 2015 17: 50
            +4
            Quote: bmw
            We live in our own country and we must establish the rules for ourselves and implement them. The issue is performance, not the number of companies.

            In the USSR there was one basic rule - everything for the people, everything in the name of the people, all other rules were built from here, now profit is the basis, hence all other rules
            1. Down House
              Down House 2 November 2015 00: 09
              -2
              Quote: sa-ag
              one basic rule - everything for the people, everything in the name of the people, from here all the other rules were built,

              Rules by rules, but something really was better then, something really better now.
              And if in general, there used to be more guarantees, now there are more opportunities.
              My parents were safer, but I live better, and you can not compare these 2 periods only in black and white - the truth is in semitones.
    3. Down House
      Down House 1 November 2015 09: 03
      0
      Quote: shinobi
      .But minimize

      You don’t need to reduce anything, you just need to properly regulate the quality of transport, control the quality of aircraft service, give priority to companies flying our planes.
      And how many carriers will be specific is already the second thing.
      1. BMW
        BMW 1 November 2015 13: 16
        0
        Quote: Down House
        give priority to companies flying our aircraft.

        If you care about market competition, then you need to give preferential concessions and preferential loans, they themselves will switch to our equipment. The law is simple "demand creates supply", sort of like the mantra of market people.
        1. perm23
          perm23 2 November 2015 12: 43
          +1
          Yes, understand YOU. Do not need business exemptions and loans. Because the business wants only one profit more and faster. And if tomorrow you give them zero credit and exempt from taxes, what do you think these directors will take care of new technology for airlines. No . Here, they will take care of new technology for themselves, about new castles, for themselves and their loved ones. It is necessary to ask them toughly, and if relief is given, then so that they answer for it, and that’s how the money will go to their own needs.
          1. Down House
            Down House 3 November 2015 09: 12
            0
            Quote: perm23
            Yes, understand YOU. Do not need business exemptions and loans

            Yes, YOU understand that there is such a word as Profitability in the capitalist world.
            I explain to you, if Pyotr Petrovich has a billion and he thinks where to invest it, then where will he invest it?
            In construction with 300% per annum or in air transportation at 30% per annum?
            In Moscow, we are now building new buildings on every corner - because it is profitable.
            And in aviation, the cat wept - it is not profitable!
            And you offer carriers to tighten the nuts even more, then there will be nothing to fly on - and the last enthusiasts will go to other areas.
        2. AlexeyL
          AlexeyL 2 November 2015 15: 08
          0
          Demand of course gives rise to an offer, but the offer from heaven will go down to earth and consider such an example. Buses and trolleybuses have always been public transport. They also performed a social mission and a commercial one. But then there was a demand and minibuses appeared - gazelles, and then imported minibuses. Good! Fast, convenient, though not entirely safe. As a result, the buses almost disappeared, and passenger traffic fell in trolleybuses. They have become unprofitable. But what about the social mission! And although there is a demand for it, there will be no supply. Not profitable. As a result, entrepreneurs remove foam (far from always worrying about security, because this is secondary, primary - profit), and the social mission - to the state. Something like this.
  3. Siberia 9444
    Siberia 9444 1 November 2015 05: 48
    +23
    Both civil aviation and railways should be only public and not private, which pursue profit neglecting everything! (this does not apply to the last crash, a serious investigation is needed) just my opinion as I work on the railway and see what was done to it after the MPS.
    1. yuriy55
      yuriy55 1 November 2015 07: 31
      +8
      ... only state-owned and not private, which pursue profit neglecting everything!

      The interesting thing is that you are not alone in your opinion.

      Why are local branches of one state company worse and wasteful of small companies? And as regards aviation, and transport in general, they cannot exist without state relations and support (of course, if the government is not in private hands ...) An example of love for passengers from private airlines we saw recently when tickets to Moscow began to cost 80 rubles. And the fragmentation of railway transport did not lead to healthy competition, but to an increase in transportation tariffs. On the sea and river transport entire enterprises (sites) disappeared ...
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 1 November 2015 08: 30
        +4
        And not only railways and air transportation - banking should also be a state monopoly. And then it was fruitful of garbage cans with only one idea: to cut the loot on the interest on the loan.
        1. BMW
          BMW 1 November 2015 13: 21
          -1
          Quote: Basarev
          And then it was fruitful of garbage cans with only one idea: to cut the loot on the interest on the loan.

          Oh come on, this is so a side run-in. The main earnings are speculation on the stock exchange and the carousel of state funds or large companies.
      2. perm23
        perm23 1 November 2015 14: 17
        +3
        Yes, they told everyone that there will be competition and all. Prices down, quality up. Yes, no. All this is a lie. That someone does not need an extra ruble. He will look at a neighbor and say, I will sell the best quality product at a low price, Why. It will make it easier. will set the same price. Why should he save up for 5 years on a new yacht, if it is possible for a year. And then the children need it, etc. Here in my city in a radius of 500 meters there are already 5 stores and what, the price has changed somewhere. No and no.
  4. Zomanus
    Zomanus 1 November 2015 05: 56
    +15
    Yes, they constantly talk about it. From one tragedy to another.
    Only now it is apparently more profitable to pay compensation to those who died in another plane crash every few years than to constantly invest in aircraft construction.
    So I think that this time too, everything will be limited to angry articles, speeches ... until the next catastrophe.
    1. igor.borov775
      igor.borov775 3 November 2015 05: 37
      0
      Yes, there is a whole field for our beloved deputies. After all, the state pays the bulk of the compensation. Why. There the German fell in the Alps where all payments were made by the carrier company. But there will be another trial. The company’s fault is complete and compensation for the dead is considered small. And the main thing is clear that this company will have to fork out again. All lawyers associated with this catastrophe unequivocally predict this. Here we are talking about something else. Jets produce only 35 pieces a year. This is very small, the cost will be high. Now they are trying to take the figure 40. Until there is a release of cars, the cost will be high. Two years they built one first IL-XNUMX in Ulyanovsk, too, the second two years. While production is still stalled. The fault of non-aircraft manufacturers is a much deeper problem. Related industries in a difficult situation. Instrument making, machine tool engineering, etc., etc. Breaking up with Ukraine is expensive for us. Helicopters of Russia feel better. Import substitution is faster here, since they took up this problem a little earlier. Only by the end of this year bottlenecks in the production of high-tech high-tech products were clarified. For a year they can’t be solved as soon as I would like. The sanctions highlighted a lot. Even the fact that we have product samples is much better than imported ones. But she was not needed, it was cheaper to buy and not bother. Of course, the liberal wing of the Government is in full swing to oppose the change of outlook on our native industry, they have to wait and all the sanctions will be lifted. But now it has come for a long time. The bulk of the confusion problems, but things are moving forward. And if the cash flow tracking system that was launched in the MO proves to be effective, then things will go even faster. The president wants to launch this system in the Government. Just imagine all the expenses in the budget country will work with the so-called colored money. That's where the dog is buried. This is for now in the Moscow Region and the military-industrial complex, she earned a lot of interesting translations in test mode. Competent organizations are now dealing with these issues. Only after a certain time, we will find out whether our authorities managed to cope with this disaster by producing new aircraft for passengers. It is useless to say anything now.
  5. Amurets
    Amurets 1 November 2015 06: 00
    +16
    Until they introduce protective duties on the operation of aircraft junk in Russia and there will be no point in importing junk. I am not against imported aircraft, but only new cars should be registered and it is not necessary for 10 years this is not operation and the car will fly and fly. Also, officials do not take cars that have been a year in operation, but only new ones are taken? And another question? Why does the government want to allow foreign pilots to fly on our flights? It will not be cheaper, only more expensive. The best will not go to Russia, it is not bad for them, at home, but the refuse of Western companies that are not needed there. I have a proposal: to calculate all the pilots of the government squadron and replace them with pilots from the West, typed according to advertisements: "I am looking for a job."
    1. Igor39
      Igor39 1 November 2015 07: 29
      +3
      It is necessary to do as with the auto industry, to produce our own and western and to ban the import of junk.
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 1 November 2015 08: 38
        +5
        I would prefer only domestic transport. There is nothing to feed the West, who are so unfriendly to us. That is to ban absolutely all imports, regardless of the fraternity of the people ... Yes, and the term fraternal people itself is forbidden. And then every time we throw billions into the next fraternal regime, and in return we get betrayal over and over again. And then calmly write off and forgive debts.
        1. Igor39
          Igor39 1 November 2015 11: 29
          0
          Then it is necessary to ban everything imported, cars, clothes, food, and most importantly, machines and equipment, we will carry out modernization at our domestic, if we can ...
          1. complete zero
            complete zero 1 November 2015 12: 36
            +1
            Well, why should such extremes (be forbidden) but how should rams follow everything be no better than prohibitions ... The West, for the sake of simplifying work (human labor), will automate everything as much as possible ... and by will not a person (driver or pilot) becomes a hostage get out of a situation that is sometimes incapable
      2. Greenwood
        Greenwood 1 November 2015 15: 55
        0
        Hey, don't touch the cars. Primorye against. The Japanese do not fail on the roads, unlike the domestic auto industry.
  6. Alexander Romanov
    Alexander Romanov 1 November 2015 06: 07
    0
    Roma minus you for the article. Yesterday Zyuganov condoled, or rather PR on corpses.
    Your article is not PR, but. A321 aircraft with tail number 663 was released 18 and a half years agoFirst of all, you need to look at the raid in the watch. The average age of operation is 25-30 years.
    Quote: Siberia 9444
    Both civil aviation and railways should be only public and not private, which pursue profit neglecting everything!

    In the world in every country, piles of private carriers fly on different machines, including new ones, but sometimes planes crash in different countries.
    In the days of the USSR, there was one state-owned company, with a bunch of new planes, but the planes still crashed. This is a tragedy and there were and will be many more, simply because the equipment sometimes fails.
    And the same Finn Air for 34 did not have a single disaster, and the company is private.
    1. Platonich
      Platonich 1 November 2015 06: 32
      +4
      Have you seen where they fly? From the neighboring village to the city and back! So our "corn workers" have the same statistics!
      1. Alexander Romanov
        Alexander Romanov 1 November 2015 06: 42
        +8
        Quote: Platonitch
        Have you looked where they fly? From a neighboring village to the city and back!

        Finn air from a neighboring village and back? The company flies around the world, for you a screen. And the link about flights it is lain http://www.finnair.com/en/en/flights/flightlist
        Qantas Airways also has not had a single crash in 34 years.
        All Nippon Airways
        Cathay pacifi

        You dear, it’s better to keep silent once again, it won’t leave you.
        1. SeregaBoss
          SeregaBoss 1 November 2015 07: 09
          +5
          Silence is gold, not I came up with. Finair is an excellent carrier, especially for Petersburgers
      2. Igor Nikonov
        Igor Nikonov 1 November 2015 11: 46
        0
        Corners could (and can) plan + to sit where more or less exactly.
        It seems to me from the experience of flying on modern airliners that modern mass planes cannot plan in principle (did they see the extended parts of the wings when the speed decreases? - obviously to increase the bearing capacity when the speed decreases (c) Bernoulli), there is no fuel dump system - in case of emergency landing - 100% explosion, no chance to survive.
    2. redeemer
      redeemer 1 November 2015 07: 49
      -3
      how infected you are with this idiocy ... you don’t even want to see facts through this veil. that hecate with his torch will illuminate that and are happy ...
      1. Vasilenko Vladimir
        Vasilenko Vladimir 1 November 2015 09: 06
        0
        and you can expand the idea?
    3. The comment was deleted.
  7. venaya
    venaya 1 November 2015 06: 24
    +12
    The problem is in our aviation, rather, not even in airplanes, but in the organization of Russian civil aviation. Russia needs a fleet of new domestic aircraft.

    We do not have that country to allow ourselves to be left without the domestic aviation industry. Apparently this is the main conclusion from this article.
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      1 November 2015 09: 24
      +1
      Apparently so.
      1. BMW
        BMW 1 November 2015 13: 40
        0
        Quote: Banshee
        Apparently so.

        That's right. We have from conclusions to making decisions, as to the moon on foot. And from making a decision, to putting it into practice, a whole hollow. This is a systemic crisis, because the system is no longer able to support and reproduce itself. hi
  8. Platonich
    Platonich 1 November 2015 06: 25
    +22
    A very correct and timely article! Having ditched their own fleet of civil and, to some extent, military aviation, our grabber-"busmesmen" have collected some trash flying somehow and squeeze out profits to the maximum without caring about hundreds of lives of their fellow citizens. They save on everything: on fuel, personnel training, spare parts, maintenance, etc. I have a familiar Boeing pilot who plows just for wear and tear, since he is still young and already at the limit of human capabilities. There is a merciless, in the name of enrichment, exploitation of both people and technology. So the author has a huge respect !!!
    1. Alexander Romanov
      Alexander Romanov 1 November 2015 06: 33
      +6
      Quote: Platonitch
      Very correct and timely article!

      After each plane crash, hundreds of such articles come out. After each fire in which people die, hundreds of articles go out. After each major accident involving buses, hundreds of articles are published.
      Dancing on blood-mourning today!
      1. venaya
        venaya 1 November 2015 06: 59
        +3
        Quote: Alexander Romanov
        After each ... hundreds of articles come out.

        This is the only way, unfortunately, on the blood of people, and to study. "Until the thunder breaks out ...".
        1. Alexander Romanov
          Alexander Romanov 1 November 2015 11: 21
          +3
          Quote: venaya
          Only in this way, unfortunately, do people study on the blood.

          No, they don’t study, there will be slogans and inspections of companies all over the country, then everything will return to normal again. Until next time.
      2. Amurets
        Amurets 1 November 2015 07: 52
        +13
        [quote = Alexander Romanov] Dancing on blood-mourning today!

        Yes! Mourning, and again no one will answer for this mourning. In Soviet times, two of my classmates sat down. One pilot was the commander of the Yak-40 - he sat down for an extra passenger, took pity on the lagging passenger and got caught. And the second sat down at the knot that was out of warranty, and there was nothing to replace. Here he succumbed to persuasion and received two years of probation with a wolf ticket. And then he worked as a mechanic, with a higher education, until his death. That's how they fought accident rate in Soviet Aeroflot.
        1. Basarev
          Basarev 1 November 2015 08: 48
          -1
          And I think more and more about airships. Think about it: even with the crash of Hindenburg, less than a third died, and yet it was filled with flammable hydrogen, and this was the case in the thirties, and since then the technology has taken great strides.
          1. Roman Skomorokhov
            1 November 2015 09: 28
            +4
            Quote: Alexander Romanov
            Dancing on blood-mourning today!


            AND? What would change if the article came out tomorrow? Would you be less relevant?

            In general, each judge in moderation. To each his own.

            Alexander Romanov, for example, is being promoted on anti-flame. But this is Romanov, he can do almost everything here.
            1. Alexander Romanov
              Alexander Romanov 1 November 2015 11: 13
              -5
              Quote: Banshee
              . But this is Romanov, almost everything is possible for him here.

              Oh, how you got hooked, you write articles so be able to accept criticism or do not write at all.
              Especially when you write an article.
          2. venaya
            venaya 1 November 2015 10: 25
            +1
            Quote: Basarev
            during the Hindenburg crash, less than a third died, and yet it was filled with flammable hydrogen, and it was in the thirties, and since then technology has taken a big step forward.

            I will add a little: the Hindenburg airship is the first German airship that did not have the name Zepelin, from the very beginning of its development it was designed for the first time for non-combustible helium, which at that time was produced exclusively in the USA, but due to a trivial competitive war, the Americans did not their contractual obligations and did not supply strategic helium to Germany. It was this that became fatal for such a successful airship design and naturally ended in the largest tragedy at that time. In principle, this could not have happened if the Americans had supplied their helium to Germany. Only in this way was it possible to end the era of the monopoly of airships in commercial transatlantic transport and move on to the development of commercial use of heavier-than-air vehicles (aircraft) on this route.
      3. perm23
        perm23 1 November 2015 14: 20
        0
        You are wrong, we do not dance in the blood. We simply express our sorrow and think and reason that this should not happen. Therefore, we write here.
  9. ia-ai00
    ia-ai00 1 November 2015 06: 39
    +5
    Platonich SU
    .... our grabbers - "busmesmen" have scored some trash flying somehow and are squeezing out profits to the maximum

    Hmm ... You are 100% right.
    As the saying goes, "nothing personal, just business ..." am
    The kingdom of heaven to the dead, condolences to the close.
  10. Just BB
    Just BB 1 November 2015 06: 51
    +17
    The author is completely right - both in terms of import substitution, and in the monopolization of air transportation.
    See how the country's leadership "rush" with the "auto industry", although the country has never been a leader in this industry and the prospects for this to become very vague. But the rationale is that we save jobs.
    The aircraft industry — where we have much more and we can use the forces of industry (already! For almost everything is worth it) you can do much more — the chemical industry, metallurgy, engine building, electronic industry, etc.) —this is how many jobs. That’s where the money is - and it’s own money, not oil dollars!.
    But for some reason it is more profitable for our carriers to use leasing equipment ("buying" is inappropriate here - as Papanov's hero said to his son-in-law in the film "Beware of the car": "There is nothing of yours here! You are a HUNGER!").
    Maybe because Western banks easily give loans for such leasing

    A sad example of "Transaero" and how many before that - it is very easy to take such owners as a causal place and throw them to the sidelines.

    Air carrier today there should be one and the state - well, we are still under-grown to the private aviation market -

    The Kogalymavia airline, whose plane crashed in Egypt, is owned by private individuals.

    According to the SPARK system, in the early 2000s it was co-owned by Lukoil, but then it was completely taken over by the Western Aviation Investment Company, registered in Moscow. Its owners are Khamit Bagana, Amirbek Gagaev, Buvaysar Khalidov. They also own travel companies, and Amirbek Gagaev owns the Moscow security company Almaz.

    In 2012, the airline rebranded and became known as Metrojet. In 2013, revenue amounted to 7,5 billion, profit - 10,6 million. In 2014, with the same revenue, profit was minimal - 43 thousand.

    The company's fleet consisted of five Airbus A 321.


    "Cooks" are not suited to control the "sky" - no matter how rich and advanced they are
  11. Stinger
    Stinger 1 November 2015 07: 02
    +18
    I am ready to subscribe to all three points of the author’s conclusions. But this unfortunately will not happen. Our army is led by traders in furniture, energy and nanotechnology, Chubais, etc. But for some reason they don’t want to work as pilots. Dangerous for health.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. creak
      creak 1 November 2015 10: 35
      +2
      Quote: Stinger
      . We are taken by the army to manage furniture dealers,


      And now these merchants will also manage the production of civilian aircraft - I’m talking about the new appointment of Serdyukov to Rostec ...
      While at the forum, commentators shock the air with curses against them and give various advice, the country's leadership has already taken practical steps to rectify the situation and has entrusted Serdyukov with overseeing the civilian aircraft industry ..
      It seems above that they believe that now the civilian aircraft industry is in good hands and has no doubt in success ...
      He is a man already proven in business .. hi
      1. BMW
        BMW 1 November 2015 14: 10
        +1
        Quote: ranger
        He is a man already proven in business.

        Of course, it will destroy the corruption scheme, take away (save) billions. I realized that they put an end to Superjet and MS, we will definitely buy Airbus and Boeing.
  12. Garis
    Garis 1 November 2015 07: 12
    +7
    I subscribe to every word of the author.
  13. astronom1973n
    astronom1973n 1 November 2015 07: 16
    +23
    I agree with the author! The IL-86 (96) in comfort is in no way inferior to its foreign counterparts, it flew on many aircraft of the USSR (of course, a passenger). The TU-204, when compared with charter purchased Boeing, is a palace! Legs can be pulled out without problems! And they don’t buy our planes are enemies of the people! There are various reasons not to take your own, but to buy and sponsor Americans and Germans with frogs! And then sit and talk that the economy is not growing and not developing am It's a shame for the motherland ..... We are not worthy of such a fate!
    Put minus fans of business class massage chairs!
    1. yuriy55
      yuriy55 1 November 2015 07: 39
      +2
      Do not treat cons as negatives. This is an indicator of your personal personality. The more there are, the sharper your person stands out in the crowd.

      It's a shame for the motherland ..... We are not worthy of such a fate!
      good
  14. Aleksander
    Aleksander 1 November 2015 07: 22
    +9
    I absolutely support the author!
    As a passenger, I want and demand that I deal with air travel ONE STATE COMPANY-powerful and strong, using DOMESTIC aircraft — new and reliable, not foreign stuff!
    If you offer potential passengers to fly to a state-owned company or to a private flyfish, the answer, I think, will be obvious!
    1. Down House
      Down House 1 November 2015 09: 10
      -2
      Quote: Aleksander
      I want and demand that ONE STATE company, powerful and strong, using DOMESTIC aircraft, new and reliable, and not foreign stuff, is engaged in air transportation!

      Forgot to add - and to cheap, and even better almost free!
      And how many people will fly at normal prices, not really that people want to fly on expensive flights - they themselves buy tickets for 20-year old stuff because it is cheaper.
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 1 November 2015 09: 46
        +2
        One company is a monopoly. That is, prices you can draw whatever you want, all unprofitable routes for the knife and infrastructure for sale.
    2. Stas157
      Stas157 1 November 2015 10: 34
      +3
      Quote: Aleksander
      I demand that ONE STATE company, powerful and strong, using DOMESTIC aircraft, is new and reliable, and not foreign stuff, is engaged in air transportation!

      It was so in the USSR! One company, a state-owned company, acquired exclusively new aircraft and serviced them from start to finish. And now what? After the Turks, Saudis, Syrians, Lebanese got rid of the plane, it was acquired by a small private company Kogalym-Aviya and registered in Ireland. How it was exploited, what problems it had, why it was sold, we are told everything is recorded in the documents. But, in life it often happens that: "It was smooth on paper, but they forgot about the ravines!"
  15. Neophyte
    Neophyte 1 November 2015 07: 23
    +5
    I agree with the author! For a long time there was an article about the airbus cemetery in America, and there they bought this trash-Russian huckster for a penny!
  16. pts-m
    pts-m 1 November 2015 07: 26
    +2
    The author is right. We are talking about the independence of Russia, but in fact almost everything belongs to Western exploiters.
    1. Basarev
      Basarev 1 November 2015 08: 54
      +4
      The secret is that independence means responsibility, and this, by no means, fits into the worldview of the ruling elite.
  17. Vovanfalcon
    Vovanfalcon 1 November 2015 07: 34
    +4
    I respect Roman very much, but the view on things is very amateurish. The problem does not lie on the surface .... if earlier, while Tu and Yak and An were still in operation, our average person (no worse than DAM) also shouted that we were flying in the trash, let's buy Bobiki and Watermelons, now the polarity has changed. And the matter is not in the manufacturer, not in the plane itself, and sales are not in the age of this VS. Specifically to yesterday's event - the plane does not fall so fast .... think further.
    1. Just BB
      Just BB 1 November 2015 07: 39
      +6
      Yesterday's event is an occasion to raise once again the problem that has developed in civil aviation - no planes, no pilots, no techies. Some ticket sellers !!!
    2. yuriy55
      yuriy55 1 November 2015 07: 46
      +11
      And I respect any person who can compose correct, convincing phrases and express their thoughts with this ...
      About those who love Bobiks and Watermelons:
      I know there are more families
      Where our screaming and scolding,
      Where they look with emotion
      On foreign stickers ...
      And fat ... Russian eat!
      1. Vovanfalcon
        Vovanfalcon 1 November 2015 08: 14
        0
        I love planes !!!!! .... no need to juggle. And I meant that maintenance is always at the level !!!! ... damn, so I want to say disgusting ...
        1. Roman Skomorokhov
          1 November 2015 09: 34
          +1
          I love them too. And he had nothing against the planes (until a certain time). And pleading just for the fact that they were as written in the article. New and ours.

          And who (like Romanov, for example) likes 30-year-old Boeings, so what's the question?
    3. Roman Skomorokhov
      1 November 2015 09: 31
      +2
      Quote: VovanFalcon
      a look at things is very amateurish.


      Naturally. To write professionally, you need to at least work in the air transportation system. But those who work there are silent, silent and will be silent. For the street reluctance, and narrow specialization does not give a choice.

      Of course, the judgment is amateurish and purely consumer. But how many professionals were on that plane? I think that some consumers were.
      1. Vovanfalcon
        Vovanfalcon 1 November 2015 16: 10
        0
        Roman, I don’t know how to write professionally ..... and I will be silent. And it's not about the street .... I'm not Magomed Tolboev, I won’t draw conclusions ..... but I suggest thinking. A working plane does not crash quickly.
  18. emercom1979
    emercom1979 1 November 2015 07: 39
    +12
    Our aviation industry was demolished on purpose, according to a knurled scenario. They say they do not pass through noise and emissions. From 1999 to 2002 he worked in the fire department of VASO. So, with full maintenance, the IL-86 is disassembled almost completely and almost everything on it changes, at the factory. The question is, what full MOT can the owner of the aircraft do in his home hangar in 30-40 days? It was just that the news said that the plane had recently passed a "heavy maintenance". And in terms of quality. I saw how and in what modes the ILs are driven and therefore I am confident in them. The comfort in them is at the level, and at the request of the customer (then the Il-96 presidential was at the assembly).
    1. Vovanfalcon
      Vovanfalcon 1 November 2015 07: 50
      0
      "Severe form" of Watermelon and Bobik is no worse than it was on our equipment. Sometimes it also seems to me that I can treat myself better than a doctor.
      1. Alekseits
        Alekseits 1 November 2015 11: 17
        +2
        There are many doctors, the treatment of which is better to prefer independent.
      2. Alekseits
        Alekseits 1 November 2015 11: 17
        0
        There are many doctors, the treatment of which is better to prefer independent.
    2. Just BB
      Just BB 1 November 2015 07: 54
      +10
      Who would doubt - why is there an extra competitor on the Globe: Boeing and Airbus are enough. The fact that our planes have "become" uncompetitive is "purely literary" arguments.
      In Soviet times, the designers "did not soar" with noise, efficiency - there was no question - airfields far outside the city, and not in its center, there was enough kerosene for everyone ...
      There were "requirements" there were new engines.
      But alas, the "new owners" quickly replaced the fleet of domestic cars with used foreign cars and the issue of replacing engines on domestic aircraft disappeared "as unnecessary."
      "As unnecessary" they plundered the Saratov Aviation Plant, and the rest are "riveted".

      And the fact that our aircraft production is not a "primus plant" is evidenced by the fact that the same Boeing locates the production of its components at these enterprises.
      1. Down House
        Down House 1 November 2015 09: 12
        +1
        Quote: Just BB
        the same Boeing places production of its components at these enterprises

        And this is good!
    3. Roman Skomorokhov
      1 November 2015 09: 36
      +1
      That's what I mean! So it is "IL", which was going to VASO. And THAT was done by people who knew him before riveting!

      Would you make a Boeing on VASO? Fuck there! Would you do such a renovation at the airport? Right now!
  19. Billikid
    Billikid 1 November 2015 07: 47
    +3
    The author’s words are in the ears of GDP, although I think he does not solve much in the light of recent events.
  20. olimpiada15
    olimpiada15 1 November 2015 07: 48
    +6
    Article plus. The problems outlined in the article exist, they must be addressed.
    The fact of silencing problems also takes place, and not only in aviation.
    Pilots carry a great emotional and psychological burden, and at a critical moment, people's lives depend on their decision. It is necessary that at such moments they should not be punished for undermining the commercial interests of the campaign, only then the decision will be unambiguously taken to reduce risks for passengers. Small passenger transportation companies do not have a sufficient technical base for operating such complex objects as airplanes. must be recognized and corrected. The fragmentation of aviation into many small companies has a negative imprint on the safety of aircraft operation, on the training of pilots.
    This is a national problem and I must admit that in this regard, the commercial interests of carriers, rather than passengers, still prevail, moreover, measures to revive domestic aircraft manufacturing, improve pilot training will have a beneficial effect on the country's economy and increase the safety of air transportation.
    Like everyone, I sincerely condolences to the relatives and friends of those killed in the plane crash. The eternal memory of people who died prematurely.
  21. AIR ZNAK
    AIR ZNAK 1 November 2015 07: 49
    +2
    But the author is not right about privatization Trademark ** Aeroflot ** and all the consequences of this have been seized by Moscow internationals. And then, if you want, you don’t want to, ALL THE OTHERS. Out of need !!! If the author of an article from the Minaviaprom system, at least I didn’t even read about the topic and asked the civil aviation workers. As for Minaviaprom, put the men in order with counterfeit spare parts and increase the warranty resources of components and assemblies for domestic cars and then wash that there are no orders AvtoVAZ also cried that production was not working well, it didn’t improve anything, it hung on the neck of taxpayers and was engaged in eating state money without any progress in production And what? Ask yourself the author, what did you do in this direction except for the article on the site?
    1. Roman Skomorokhov
      1 November 2015 09: 39
      +3
      Quote: AIR-ZNAK
      If the author of the article from the system Minaviaproma


      Not. The author is purely consumer. No relation to the aviation industry.

      Quote: AIR-ZNAK
      Ask yourself the author and what have you done in this direction besides the article on the site?


      Asked. He published two materials in defense of the Voronezh Aircraft Building Association. Here and in other places. Even so.
  22. Monster_Fat
    Monster_Fat 1 November 2015 07: 51
    +9
    The problem is money. Or rather, in the greed and complete immorality of the owners of the aviation market in Russia. They only need money, only profit, and as little costs as possible. It is for this reason that amendments to the flight code of the Russian Federation were lobbied and adopted, allowing guest workers to work in Russia on the basis of only national flight diplomas, etc. Look at what is being done in terms of aircraft maintenance in Russia. Quite recently, one of the leaders of our aviation industry complained that the planes are serviced by "who knows how and who knows who", that our airlines attract Gaster with dubious qualifications for this and "invent" their schedules and maintenance standards - and all this for one if only it was cheaper. The same is with spare parts - what do you think of this old junk, which our air carriers use during repairs and put new spare parts? Yes, no matter how it is, for many it is just that such spare parts are not produced due to the antiquity of aircraft brands and therefore we have a thriving market for used spare parts and illiquid assets from all kinds of air dumps.
    1. Amurets
      Amurets 1 November 2015 08: 04
      +6
      In confirmation of your words. The truth is not an example from aviation. It was necessary to buy spare parts for equipment repair. Does the seller ask me? You for sale or for yourself? I was dumbfounded asking what is the difference? And the answer: for the sale is cheap and for several hours of work, for yourself more expensive, but for that, factory and high-quality.
      1. perm23
        perm23 1 November 2015 14: 22
        +1
        I had the same thing. One to one
    2. Just BB
      Just BB 1 November 2015 08: 21
      +2
      Any unit for an aircraft produced in the USSR had a passport. Even if it is a "duplicate", it is not difficult for a specialist to establish the "normality" of the unit. Forms of the main units l. were restored only after the unit was repaired. I do not think that any of the heads of the repair enterprise was found and "legalized" such a unit. Supervisors don't sleep. A trifle that does not affect flight safety may slip through, but you cannot do "business" on them (unless it is "XXX - Avia"), and there is a lot of stench.
      Although there are "amateurs", as in the city dumps
    3. Down House
      Down House 1 November 2015 09: 15
      0
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      They need only money, only profit and the lowest possible costs.

      Yes, that's why people open their own business and this is a feature of any business.
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      amendments to the flight code of the Russian Federation allowing migrant workers to work in Russia

      And it is possible in more detail, what kind of "guest workers" are they?
      1. Monster_Fat
        Monster_Fat 1 November 2015 10: 01
        0
        Quote: Down House
        And it is possible in more detail, what kind of "guest workers" are they?

        And, the very brains do not have enough to think about who this "might be" (although, what am I talking about, what brains can there be in Daun House)? Or a crest with a "temporary registration" is no longer a "Gaster"? I generally keep quiet about "outsourcing" ...
        1. Down House
          Down House 1 November 2015 10: 51
          -3
          Quote: Monster_Fat
          Or a crest with a "temporary registration" is no longer a "Gaster"?

          Do Ukrainians work on US lines? Or what exactly did you want to say ?!
          AAA - I realized that international law does not prohibit pilots who are citizens of other countries from flying over other countries!
          Well, this is so everywhere, and concerns not only pilots, but also sailors and truckers for example.
          Now it remains to clarify something else (more precisely, what I initially asked): why do you think this is bad ?!
          And most importantly, how are you going to fight this ?!
          1. Monster_Fat
            Monster_Fat 1 November 2015 11: 27
            +2
            "Durka" -that "turn on" is not necessary ... Why "bad" ... I do not even want to explain, you still do not understand in your "Daun ..." once you did not understand until today. And "how to fight" ... first, at the state level, prohibit "outsourcing" ..., then introduce compulsory "licensing" of flight and technical personnel ...
            1. Down House
              Down House 1 November 2015 13: 12
              0
              Quote: Monster_Fat
              Why "bad" ... I don't even want to explain, you still won't understand

              Yes, I don’t understand.
              "guest workers" and "outsourcing" are a worldwide practice and it is useless and senseless to fight against this, it is in the direct interests of air carriers.
              And they hire "guest workers" not because our "licensing" does not pass, but because our pilots often do not pass their "licensing"!
              1. Monster_Fat
                Monster_Fat 1 November 2015 14: 05
                +1
                There is nothing "meaningless" and "useless", and there is no need to refer to some mythical "international practice". You will tell the German trade unions in the aviation industry about this "practice" - they will tell you in detail about "outsourcing" in Germany. And the fact that it is in the "direct interests" of greedy carriers, I absolutely agree. Outsourcing and everything connected with it, this again brings me back to my very first post about the uncontrolled greed of the tycoons of our aviation industry, who by any means want to quickly reduce any "costs" they consider. So it is the direct responsibility of the state to control the "appetites" of greedy hucksters from the aircraft industry and carriers without conscience, and to monitor compliance with all regulatory and regulatory rules and documents related to operation and safety, and not to be eliminated hoping for the notorious "self-regulatory" "hand of the market".
                1. Down House
                  Down House 1 November 2015 15: 41
                  0
                  Quote: Monster_Fat
                  monitor compliance with all regulatory and regulatory rules and documents related to operation and safety

                  And with this I completely agree!
                  But do not confuse the warm with the soft - any business will reduce costs and work to increase profits.
                  And if "outsourcing" makes the business more profitable and does not harm security, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
                  Remember the same MTS at collective farms - the same "outsourcing".
                  And as the tractor was hung on the balance of collective farms, so immediately the small ones began to bend.
                  1. Monster_Fat
                    Monster_Fat 1 November 2015 16: 34
                    0
                    You are not speaking correctly about MTS. Motor-tractor stations (MTS) were created by the state to help collective farms to facilitate the maintenance and processing of arable land. The MTS system assumed: full state service, including spare parts, but the collective farm paid for the fuel. In fact, MTSs were bases on which there was equipment supplied by the state for FREE, but assigned to a specific collective farm or group of collective farms and was serviced by the collective farmers themselves. Spare parts and so on were sent on demand-order, which was issued at the collective farm. After the resource was spent, tractors and other machines were left on the farm as a source of spare parts. This system has nothing to do with "outsourcing", it is more like "free leasing". "Outsourcing" involves the withdrawal of labor from under the jurisdiction of the direct employer and the transfer of it to another company, another employer, which carries out attention! operating this workforce on its own terms, from which the direct employer "rents", then, this workforce. "Outsourcing" was created and serves for non-fulfillment by the primary hiring company of higher wages, hazard payments, labor protection and safety conditions in certain "complex" industries and production. "Outsourcing" is an evil that the state needs to fight, and to stop the practice of "outsourcing" you can easily ban it and that's it. But the state does not agree to this, since "outsourcing" is lobbied at the very top by gas producing, oil producing and other companies.
                    1. Down House
                      Down House 1 November 2015 19: 46
                      0
                      Quote: Monster_Fat
                      "Outsourcing" involves the withdrawal of labor from the jurisdiction of the direct employer and the transfer of it to another company, another employer

                      No.
                      Outsourcing is the initial transfer by an organization, on the basis of an agreement, of certain business processes or production functions.
                      And these functions are not limited to labor alone.
                      And what you are talking about is called outstaffing.
                      I explain briefly.
                      Taxi tractor rental - outsourcing.
                      Taxi service at OD, and not in its own workshop - outsourcing.
                      The contract with the private security company - outstaffing.
                      In all of this, initially there is nothing wrong, provided that the services are provided in a quality manner, to verify this, the state introduces licensing for certain types of activities.
                      Quote: Monster_Fat
                      You speak incorrectly about MTS

                      I initially spoke not about MTS (although this is also outsourcing) but about the fact that any even the most decent businessman will seek to save.
                      And initially there is nothing wrong with that.
    4. perm23
      perm23 1 November 2015 14: 25
      +1
      Everywhere and everything like that. And the dash knows what equipment. what specialists. a lot of illegal immigrants. Here are some of our friends driving buses. And that they monitor the machine, the safety. For the owner the main thing is profit, and everything else is not interesting to him.
    5. GAF
      GAF 1 November 2015 16: 00
      +1
      "The whole problem is in money. Or rather, in the greed and complete immorality of the owners of the aviation market in Russia. They only need money, only profit, and as little costs as possible."
      In fact of the matter. Small private campaigns, the main concern of which is profit, violate the main requirement for ensuring flight safety: a unit that has exhausted a resource established by the technical regulation, for example, 500 hours, regardless of its condition !!! must be replaced with a new one or with a diagnosis after cap. Repair, with a certificate of validity for the nth number of hours.
  23. RF92
    RF92 1 November 2015 07: 57
    +1
    I agree with the author
  24. NACC
    NACC 1 November 2015 08: 04
    +1
    The author is a hundred times right. All foreign-made aircraft are not of the first freshness that have come to us through the tenth hands.
  25. avia12005
    avia12005 1 November 2015 08: 06
    +6
    Who doubts that Boeing and Airbus bring kickbacks to the government for the airlines not to buy Russian planes, but to buy their troughs, and our Ilushin and Tupolev do not carry, because there is nothing to bear, you can bet me a minus ... am
    1. Awaz
      Awaz 1 November 2015 16: 39
      +3
      plus put. Although Ilyushin and Tupolev have a lot of problems with the characteristics, they could not be completely closed in any case. Who did this are criminals. They would be right now to find and punish.
      And since it is not with an armed look that it is clear that all these tricks with the pushing of the interests of Boeing and Airbus are made due to good infusions into the budget of the home of some officials. I even think that finding who it is not difficult, even I think that some still receive this money and feel good ...
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. Siberian
    Siberian 1 November 2015 08: 35
    +2
    ..... The article is correct, it’s all too painful according to ours, according to Russian: we destroyed the whole Aeroflot world, to the ground, and then .. we will build our new Azroflot. And you think the planes will not fall .. will be, just as cars beat, ships sink, rockets fall ...... Remember ten to twenty years ago .... How many of them fell our TU-a lot ... a big scandal arose and shouted: = Russian everything for soap ... = .... Abandoned our technical specifications and that foreign planes appeared, by the way, not only old, but also new .... And in general, the concept of an old aircraft in aviation, the name is relative, no one will give rubbish carry passengers, and fly them, there are no suicidal pilots, so the concept of an old plane is a literary concept, but not a technical one ... and again an emergency ... But let's not judge everything based on initial information only. ..It is nevertheless necessary to wait for the results of the investigation. Moreover, it’s an international investigation and I'm sorry, you can’t hide the sewed bag in it ...... Although the author’s claims, I repeat, many people are forced to think .........
    1. sa-ag
      sa-ag 1 November 2015 08: 59
      +2
      Quote: Siberian
      The concept of an old airplane is a literary concept, but not a technical one ...

      In Singapore, if I’m not mistaken, after seven years of operation, the plane is written off, what they do with it then I don’t know, maybe it’s sold to those countries that believe that they bought a lot of aircraft for little money
  28. velikoros-xnumx
    velikoros-xnumx 1 November 2015 08: 42
    +5
    I agree with the article by 100%. What is needed to ideally avoid such incidents, or to minimize the number of air accidents and as a consequence of the victims:

    The first is the creation of a single air carrier under the state wing (it is much easier to control one large company than a few dozen "snakes" with a fleet of two or three aircraft. The capabilities of a large company for servicing cars, training personnel, technological equipment, etc. are incomparable with small companies (especially with the maximum unification of the fleet with the minimum required variety of cars by class). The combination of profitable destinations and flights with marginal ones will minimize losses and require less government subsidies for such flights)

    The second is the ban on the purchase of used cars from abroad (as a minimum the maximum hours in hours for each model in accordance with its manufacturer-designated resource in the region of 20-25% of the use of the flight resource)

    Third, as the domestic civil aircraft industry develops (intensively) over a period of 7-10 years, it prohibits the purchase of new foreign-made aircraft that have an appropriate analogue to the main performance characteristics of domestic production (provided that they have comparable operational characteristics, such as the cost of the board, the assigned resource for the glider and engines, fuel efficiency). Of course, a capable state aircraft manufacturing program for manufacturers, and for a carrier a convenient mechanism for acquiring aircraft (leasing with state support or something else).
    1. cat hippopotamus
      cat hippopotamus 2 November 2015 23: 03
      +2
      The problem is that we have lost our technical support staff abroad. And the maintenance of our aircraft outside our ports is associated with these difficulties. At one time, we were squeezed in this way from their airports, citing the fact that Boeing and Airbus were unified in service. And for our board we need another service and stuff, here's another snag.
  29. Down House
    Down House 1 November 2015 08: 46
    -2
    Why is it so easy to abandon ours in favor of a foreign one?

    Including because flying abroad (if I'm not mistaken of course) today can only Superjet - the rest are too noisy and environmentally friendly.
    Russian aircraft builders should be fed by updating the fleet, and not officials who deal with contracts for the supply of air junk from the bounty of the West.

    Strange, but for some reason I thought that the airlines themselves buy aircraft - and not necessarily from the "generous west" and who will sell cheaper))
    Russia needs a state airline and a state guarantee of our air security.

    First of all, Russia needs normal production, normal engines to start, which will be launched abroad and which will work there.
    The thing is that the capacity of the regional market of the Russian Federation is 200-250 aircraft maximum and this is not enough to recoup a plane flying only with regional flights.
    Therefore, of course, it is necessary to support production, it is necessary to support airlines flying with our new planes - but this will absolutely not help if it will be impossible to fly abroad.
    1. onix757
      onix757 1 November 2015 08: 56
      +1
      Including because flying abroad (if I'm not mistaken of course) today can only Superjet - the rest are too noisy and environmentally friendly.

      1) Abroad is not only EU requirements
      2) The issue is decided by the introduction of its own rules for them. I think the ES people are reasonable and would not aggravate the situation.
      PS In order to defend the domestic aviation industry, you need will, desire and eggs. Our rulers have problems with this.
      1. Down House
        Down House 1 November 2015 09: 25
        -1
        Quote: onix757
        1) Abroad is not only EU requirements

        Yeah, you might think the rest of the world is not interested in Kyoto and other protocols!
        Still as interesting - increasing the environmental friendliness of all that is possible is the global BOOM.
        And then, the number of countries where the plane can be sent and its environmental friendliness are important for any carrier - not only EU planes fly to the EU.
        Quote: onix757
        2) The issue is decided by the introduction of its own rules for them.

        This is, again, a global trend. And the tendency, to be honest, is that the environment needs to be protected.
        Quote: onix757
        In order to defend the domestic aviation industry, one needs will, desire and eggs

        First of all, you need to understand that a modern aircraft is very complex and very expensive - in order for its production to be profitable, sales are needed not of regional, but of world level.
        "Regional manufacturers" are financially unable to afford to produce modern aircraft.
        1. onix757
          onix757 1 November 2015 09: 41
          0
          Yeah, you might think the rest of the world is not interested in Kyoto and other protocols!

          No, they are not interesting if they see a major player in the global aviation market as a supplier.
          And then, the number of countries where the plane can be sent and its environmental friendliness are important for any carrier - not only EU planes fly to the EU.

          For any carrier from third countries that do not have influence in the global aviation market, they are important. The rest create rules and make them play see above.
          1. Down House
            Down House 1 November 2015 09: 55
            0
            Quote: onix757
            see in the supplier of a major player in the global aviation market.

            It is not entirely clear exactly how objective prohibitions and large expenditures on exploitation are linked by the image of a "big game". I think if there is a dependence here, it is only inversely proportional to your logic.
            Quote: onix757
            For any carrier from third countries that do not have influence in the global aviation market, it is important.

            And this "any carrier" will most likely buy a used aircraft.
            1. onix757
              onix757 1 November 2015 10: 13
              0
              It is not entirely clear exactly how objective prohibitions and large expenditures on exploitation are linked by the image of a "big game". I think if there is a dependence here, it is only inversely proportional to your logic.

              "Objective" bans are created under the influence of large aircraft manufacturers (today A and B), in order to prevent "stray" people from entering their market. Previously, the USSR itself created bans, but now we use strangers.
              And this "any carrier" will most likely buy a used aircraft.

              Well, if we are without claims on a major aviation manufacturer (which is so), then they do so, they buy BU-trash.
              1. Down House
                Down House 1 November 2015 10: 58
                0
                Quote: onix757
                "Objective" bans are created under the influence of large aircraft manufacturers (today A and B), in order to prevent "stray"

                What is it like?!
                Boeings are not allowed into the EU, and Airbases are in the USA ?! ))))
                And for carriers, what matters are the problems of these companies, their total turnover significantly exceeds the turnover of aircraft manufacturers!
                Do you understand?
                International carriers rule over national manufacturers and in no case vice versa.
                1. onix757
                  onix757 1 November 2015 11: 52
                  0
                  Boeings are not allowed into the EU, and Airbases are in the USA ?! ))))

                  Boeing and Busik with the collapse of the Union half the world in clients. Do you understand which market? There is no great reason for them to bite, because they get along well, complement each other and share profits.
                  And for carriers, what matters are the problems of these companies, their total turnover significantly exceeds the turnover of aircraft manufacturers!

                  Carriers really have little to do with manufacturers 'problems, which does not negate manufacturers' interest in carriers, who in turn are gentlemen sharing the market.
                  International carriers rule over national manufacturers and in no case vice versa.

                  And who are international carriers? Yes, there are mergers and acquisitions in the west, but in most cases the controlling stake remains with the national government, which in turn is subject to political and economic influence.
          2. sa-ag
            sa-ag 1 November 2015 10: 34
            0
            Quote: onix757
            No, not interesting

            Even as interesting, you can sell your quota to a country that pays good money for it
        2. onix757
          onix757 1 November 2015 09: 45
          +1
          First of all, you need to understand that a modern aircraft is very complex and very expensive - in order for its production to be profitable, sales are needed not of regional, but of world level.

          Yes, you at least make a spaceship, in the world they will not buy it without patronage. Nobody just lets anyone into their market. We gave our market and now we are on the verge of markets A and B and are waiting for the bone to be thrown.
          1. Down House
            Down House 1 November 2015 09: 58
            -2
            Quote: onix757
            in the world they will not buy it without patronage

            Without whose patronage?
            Private carriers are not interested in "patronage" - when buying aircraft, they are guided primarily by their own benefits.
            1. onix757
              onix757 1 November 2015 10: 19
              0
              Without whose patronage?

              States or groups of states manufacturing aircraft.
              Private carriers are not interested in "patronage" - when buying aircraft, they are guided primarily by their own benefits.

              Private carriers (read a trifle) uses the rules of the game that the state will establish. For example, the state will say that from today used A and B will cost as new and immediately all the benefits will come to naught.
              1. Down House
                Down House 1 November 2015 14: 00
                0
                Quote: onix757
                States or groups of states manufacturing aircraft.

                So you might think the heads of these states collect carriers from around the world in a circle and say what they should buy and when. And at the same time and what kind of cars to drive and in which house to live. Well, it's funny, well, it's not so simple!
                Quote: onix757
                Private carriers (read a trifle) uses the rules of the game that the state will establish.

                First of all, they use the rules of international law and the rules of doing business.
                If the state begins to twist the nuts excessively, the business goes either to another sphere or to another country.
                And do not think that you can just take it and make the business work in a way that is beneficial only to the state.
                If this is not beneficial to the business, it will simply go bankrupt.
    2. onix757
      onix757 1 November 2015 08: 57
      0
      Strange, but for some reason I thought that the airlines themselves buy aircraft - and not necessarily from the "generous west" and who will sell cheaper))

      The question of barrage duties on air junk was never resolved by the DAM cabinet
    3. glasha3032
      glasha3032 2 November 2015 01: 04
      +1
      Do you think the world market for regional aircraft is so large that it is strongly interested in Russian aircraft? Yes, it has long been divided between Brazilian and Canadian manufacturers, and the fact that Russia managed to SLEEP with the Superjets is already happiness! will not be able to recoup production, only an emphasis on the domestic consumer will be able to reverse the situation with the production of aircraft in a series (250-300 pieces is ALREADY a lot for us today!)
  30. Valga
    Valga 1 November 2015 08: 59
    +2
    We must end with charter companies. And also with contractors, subcontractors, subcontractors and other parasites. If this is done away with, it will only be better for everyone.
    1. Down House
      Down House 1 November 2015 09: 31
      0
      Quote: Valga
      We must end with charter companies.

      Nobody is forcibly planting anyone in them, people voluntarily choose cheap carriers and infa for all of them from the fleet to the statistics of disasters is freely available.
      And to put an end to "parasites" is possible only by giving up the Russian "maybe"!
  31. tracer
    tracer 1 November 2015 09: 03
    +5
    Right people who speak out about the potential causes of the disaster. This terrible tragedy that claimed the lives of our compatriots. Eternal memory to them, the land rest in peace ....
    However, this is a reason to stir up the public consciousness for solving such an important problem in Russia as ensuring flight safety. this is a grandiose topic about which one can and should talk, or even better, SOLVE it using all available means. I think that many people understand that the main reason for the accidents of aircraft in Russia is associated with the very system of organizing air transportation. Everyone understands and knows that not a single small shop or private shop selling anything will NEVER be able to compete with large retail chains. Large retail chains (in this case, this is just a comparison) will always offer better quality products, more favorable prices, and provide the best service guarantees and maintenance. Since in Russia today the capitalist economic model of economic development is used, this rule of the market economy can be extended to any type of activity, including air carriers. So why is this happening? Let's try to figure it out ..)))) The point is probably much greater saturation (large companies) with capital, a network of sales and services ramified across cities and regions, a single center of management and planning .... These are at least several main components. "Unified control and planning center" don't you think it smelled familiar? Yes it is - the Soviet management style. Wow !! So it turns out that under "that antediluvian socialism" we used the most advanced economic models of development !!! What a surprise . The conclusion suggests itself. Until Russia is restored, in one form or another, the "old" and it is already "new" air transportation system that includes absolutely all the necessary components (aircraft are only part of this system), nothing will change in terms of air transportation safety. The Constitution of the Russian Federation states that the source of power is the PEOPLE. So PEOPLE, it's time to do something about it. How would and to whom it would be "unpleasant".
    1. sa-ag
      sa-ag 1 November 2015 09: 35
      0
      Quote: tracer
      The constitution of the Russian Federation states that the source of power is the PEOPLE.

      He - the people delegate power to the elect in the election, and this ends his role, and the chosen one starts a business game with his environment, which is his real pillar
  32. F.Vastag
    F.Vastag 1 November 2015 09: 07
    +6
    Air Carrier - there should be only 1-one (such as the Soviet "AEROFLOT") with Unified flight rules, uniform regulations and maintenance - as in the Civil Aviation of the USSR). The aircraft fleet should also be purely domestic: TU-334, Tu-214, TU-204, IL-96-400 (in the passenger version) - on which the VVP flies, and so on. For EVERYTHING (in Civil Aviation) only ONE STRUCTURE should be responsible (and not dozens, as it is now). All Rape (in other countries) Foreign BU-AVIA-KHLAM (Airbus, Boeing), which is now in the RF Aviation Park - Under PRESS (on LOM).
    1. Down House
      Down House 1 November 2015 09: 34
      +1
      Quote: F. Vastag
      Air Carrier - there should be only 1-one with Unified flight rules, unified regulations and maintenance

      Here is the fact that transportation rules and services should be the same for everyone and should be controlled by the state - this is absolutely true.
      But how many companies / owners will be on the market is absolutely irrelevant if they all work according to general rules.
      1. Amurets
        Amurets 2 November 2015 06: 12
        0
        Quote: F. Vastag
        For EVERYTHING (in Grazhd. Aviation), only ONE STRUCTURE should be responsible (and not tens, as it is now).

        Quote: Down House
        But how many companies / owners will be on the market is absolutely irrelevant if they all work according to general rules.

        By combining both your proposals, there will be a way out of the impasse. You need a single service or structure for controlling air traffic, and not only, but for all traffic in the country. If you look, now in the country there are several hundred government agencies for all types of transport, which they’re not responsible for anything, but only regularly collect money for nothing, and those leaving do not know where. It’s better to be alone, but with which both the prime minister and the president can ask.
    2. donavi49
      donavi49 1 November 2015 09: 52
      -3
      Even in the USA and France they cannot make dominating the presence in the sky of their aircraft giants on their territory! Companies in the United States massively exploit different types of aircraft with live Boeing.

      Plus, and this is the main thing, the domestic is not taken at all not because of the harmfulness, but because of the market. For even take Il:
      - operation in Aeroflot is completely unprofitable. In other words, if you go to IL-96 have by a third raise ticket prices for Boeing / Airbus.

      - service efficiency is extremely low, simple for a similar breakdown of a Boeing and 96 differed by more than 5 times! In other words - more downtime, more loss, more expensive ticket!

      - the production itself, now only Sukhoi makes 30-40 boards per year. The rest of 1-2 and then not every year. Many hundreds of aircraft, hundreds of new service centers across the country are needed.
  33. Support
    Support 1 November 2015 09: 28
    +5
    Ha, capitalism rules. At the head is profit and superprofit. The main thing is loot, the rest is nothing. And like children. Who will allow you to have one airline? At least to the state. Antitrust code will immediately run up, such as breaking the law. And in Kamchatka we raised the price of gas three times in two months - and this is within the framework of the law. it turns out.
  34. Cook
    Cook 1 November 2015 09: 29
    +2
    Dear ones, maybe you still need to wait for the conclusions of the commission of inquiry, and listen less to various "specialists" who, as a rule, have no direct relation to either maintenance or flight operations. I share and understand the emotional state of compatriots, but our industry alone cannot produce competitive aircraft in sufficient quantities in a short period of time. The fact is that such aircraft are just beginning, with great difficulties, to enter the market. Dear, understand - the plane itself is just iron, and without normal after-sales support and built-in service systems and supply of spare parts, it will never become a successful project. Whatever opinion we have about its comfort and reliability. The indicator of the cost of an aircraft operation hour is very important for an airline; it consists of many indicators. Believe me, no kickbacks will be able to influence the decisions of the airline's management, to operate a particular model of an aircraft if it is not able to recoup the operating costs, this is just a road to nowhere. Air transportation is a very tough business, and an aircraft is a means of production. Here you also need to clearly understand that airlines do not buy aircraft, they lease them and the cost of this lease does not depend very much on the size of the carrier - the lease rate is also a market, only between lessors and it is basically the same.
    1. Awaz
      Awaz 1 November 2015 10: 27
      0
      the authorities have many levers of pressure on the business and I think that they would find something to force all these small companies to merge into two or three large companies, which would also act according to the laws and regulations that do not allow the use of old aircraft. That is, it is not difficult to prohibit the purchase (or lease) of used aircraft at all, just as it is not difficult to prohibit the operation of aircraft older than a certain wear and tear on its territory.
      the author may be wrong in some approaches to the problem, but in general, everything is true.
      1. Cook
        Cook 1 November 2015 11: 39
        +1
        Yes, you finally understand that the aviation business is unprofitable in itself. Even with the current state of affairs, just think about it, 9% of the country's population uses air transport. By themselves, restrictions on the age of airplanes in an airline will only make tickets more expensive. We are now looking at the operational history of the crashed aircraft, but we don’t see the reasons why it was leased by this or that airline. But this may be not only obsolescence of the aircraft, it may be due to the economic problems of the airline returning the aircraft to the lessor. Unification of its fleet or change of business model. For example, the transition from scheduled to charter flights, or to someone specifically this model did not fit. So it’s impossible to blame everyone for everything in any way, here it is necessary to resolve it very carefully.
  35. sevtrash
    sevtrash 1 November 2015 09: 30
    -1
    It seems that the author is not of this world - I forgot, probably, that everything determines the possibility of making a profit. The state-owned enterprise also, to say nothing of a private trader. Who will pay for a state-owned enterprise if it is inefficient and unprofitable? State budget? And how long will the unprofitable enterprise support the budget, and then who will fill this budget? And then what will happen to the state, which will spend the budget on unprofitable firms when it falls apart?
    Based on this, a simple question is how much / will foreign and domestic aircraft cost, how much will it work, how much will it cost to service it at different airfields, and train and support pilots. Evaluate the ratio of the costs of designing / creating an aircraft at the Boeing, Airbus level with the need to reimburse this money spent, make a profit and invest in the development of technologies.
    The economy is primary, no one forgot? The author does not remember.
    1. onix757
      onix757 1 November 2015 09: 36
      +1
      Profit is a conditional concept, since it all depends on the "mood" of the state. You can create conditions for making a profit (even on old YAKs), but you can, on the contrary, bend it.
      1. Cook
        Cook 1 November 2015 10: 16
        +2
        You forget about external competition, we are no longer as closed as under the Union. Foreign companies fly to us in large numbers, there is a choice. To do as you say, you need to close the borders and fly only within the country, entrusting any one company to fly abroad, subsidizing it at the same time. All this has already happened, TsUMVS Aeroflotv, etc. Meanwhile, the state does not take VAT from Russian airlines, only for international flights, so as not to make them uncompetitive in comparison with foreign ones. And for domestic transportation, take out and put 18%, and then we say our companies are fucked up, such prices are tearing.
      2. sevtrash
        sevtrash 1 November 2015 12: 25
        0
        Quote: onix757
        You can create the conditions for profit (at least on the old Yak), but you can on the contrary rot.

        Gorgeous, is it like issuing an order - should everyone make a profit next month? Issue an order - do aircraft manufacturers sell aircraft cheaper? And what kind of bucks will they pay salaries, purchase components, develop equipment? For airlines - stop servicing aircraft because it's expensive? And raise ticket prices, by itself?
        Accidentally did not forget - the crisis in the yard? The filling of the budget from oil and gas dollars collapsed, and this is at least 50% of the budget. The dollar jumped, incomes on the contrary, those wishing to fly abroad and generally fly became smaller. Travel agencies collapsed that year, in this airline. This is a crisis.
  36. Fonmeg
    Fonmeg 1 November 2015 09: 34
    0
    But this requires a tough political will of the Russian leadership.


    Something needs to be changed in the country and this requires a tough stance by the authorities. But you need to change a lot and, first of all, responsibility for your affairs with hard demand, regardless of ranks and ranks! The stable that the country has been converted into over the past 20 years must be thoroughly cleaned of the accumulated shit!
  37. Geosun
    Geosun 1 November 2015 09: 35
    0
    The author’s anger is fair and I share it, but seriously:
    The state airline will always be more expensive. Take, for example, the Vostochny cosmodrome or a construction site in Sochi, or the Elbrus processor, or IL-96. These are wonderful products, but insanely expensive. Well, state-owned enterprises lose to private ones. Fuel consumption on IL is 2 times higher than Boeing. And abroad, such rules are not allowed there with our avionics and engines. Even if you do everything according to their rules. they will still come up with new ones and cut us off. The Soviet Union did not care about fuel consumption and the economic efficiency of air transportation, Russia cannot afford that. And if you create only the aircraft body, and put everything else imported, then the engine and avionics are the most important thing.
    But to oblige oil producers to send 10% of oil for processing to aviation kerosene for domestic aircraft would not be bad.
    1. sa-ag
      sa-ag 1 November 2015 10: 49
      +2
      Quote: Geosun
      But to oblige oil producers to send 10% of oil for processing to aviation kerosene for domestic aircraft would not be bad.

      Or ".. As reported in early February 1999, RAO" Gazprom "ordered one Tu-156 aircraft for 104 passenger seats for air transportation of workers working on a rotational basis.

      At the same time, negotiations were under way with Gazprom and Lentransgae to work out options for operating the Tu-156 on cryogenic fuel and creating the necessary infrastructure for gas liquefaction. For the Tu-156, the design documentation is being revised in accordance with the new requirements of Gazprom, with its planned completion at the end of 1999. Earlier, Gazprom demanded a cargo-passenger plane, now it is only a passenger car.

      The first flight of the Tu-156 should take place in 2001.

      An agreement was reached with Gazprom on advancing the work being carried out, the cost of which was previously estimated at 100 billion rubles, or approximately over $ 10 million. Now this amount is being overestimated, it is clear that it is, in the opinion of the chief designer of ANTK im. Tupolev Vladimir Andreev, will increase. NK-89 engines, created on the basis of NK-8-2U for operation on kerosene and liquefied natural gas, have successfully passed bench tests at the stand in Samara. According to some reports, the NK-89 engine also successfully completed the entire flight test program of 100 flights.

      In mid-February 1999, it was reported that technical problems at the Aviation Scientific and Technical Complex (ANTK) named after Tupolev to create the world's first commercial aircraft Tu-156, operating on liquefied natural gas (LNG), does not exist. The documentation for the construction of the first sample worked out by 70%.

      According to the chief designer of this aircraft, Vladimir Andreev, intensive negotiations were underway with Gazprom on lending to this work: the preparation of a contract for the supply of Tu-156 aircraft with engines running on liquefied natural gas (LNG) was at the final stage. "http://aftershock.su/?q=node/302166
    2. mervino2007
      mervino2007 3 November 2015 17: 39
      0
      Quote: Geosun
      Fuel consumption on IL is 2 times higher than Boeing

      And where did you get these numbers? There are facts that suggest that Boeing’s economy is not higher than IL96-300. And the opposite opinion is imposed and paid by the same Boeing. The government family is not without a freak. The bribe rules the ball.
  38. donavi49
    donavi49 1 November 2015 09: 58
    +1
    You have to wait for the results before blaming the plane. The model is very popular by the way and tenacious. The overwhelming majority of accidents with him is a pilot's mistake (9 from 13 with human casualties, the pilot’s mistake, intentional crash or gross violations of maintenance / pre-flight training).
  39. fazayek
    fazayek 1 November 2015 10: 01
    +1
    Compare IL96 and A320 is strong. I don’t understand how to compare and propose replacing planes of two completely different classes and destinations. Further, to revive the aircraft industry is not 1 year, and not 5, but all 10-20. And then, at first, the hated Boeings and Airbases will be better for you, both in terms of security and in terms of operating costs. And before that? Do you offer to fly old carcasses?
    The problem is not the planes, the problem is the airlines. When coffins fly without maintenance, because there is savings. When pilots are forced to continue flying with malfunctions, to fly through a thunderstorm, because fuel is consumed, and this is a fine and a loss of bonus. When some homeless companies cannot even afford dispatching services. These are the "businessmen" that should be tried for attempted mass murder.
  40. Cook
    Cook 1 November 2015 10: 02
    +3
    To everyone who advocates tough actions against the so-called air junk, I will ask one question: in which of the latest catastrophes is the equipment specifically to blame?
    It is the equipment, its failure or violation during maintenance. For those who like to draw analogies with road transport, I also suggest recalling the most resonant car crashes associated with failures. Only one comes to mind where the brakes failed on an overloaded KAMAZ. Technique is now only to blame for a quarter of events, the rest one way or another, unfortunately, is done by man.
  41. tracer
    tracer 1 November 2015 10: 03
    0
    Quote: Geosun
    And if you create only the airplane’s body, and put everything else imported, then the engine and avionics are the most important thing.

    I am very glad that I saw our Russian Superjets at Sheremetyevo Airport yesterday. It is very joyful for me that this is the first car after the collapse of the USSR was created and lifted into the sky. The aircraft is small, a direct competitor to Ambyer and General Electric. Others say that they say FUU, Boeing helped create the plane. Where are they looking .... Guard .... Avionics, the engines are all according to "theirs" and not "ours". I would like to remind such citizens what is most important in air transportation. So the most important thing is to get a stable profit. Deliver passengers and cargo to different parts of the world. And these points are Airports. Russian airports in quantitative comparison with the world's minuscule. In addition, the idea of ​​making a profit from transportation itself implies constant visits to airports located anywhere in the world. So all these airports are standardized (electronic support, maintenance, technical service, etc.) for the main types of aircraft. These "basic types" are Boeing and Airbus products. Hopefully there is no need to explain that a "competitive" aircraft must contain the most wear parts and adhere to standards from "well-known manufacturers". Otherwise ... Sorry, such costs were only within the USSR and then within the Union. This is why the latest passenger aircraft must and will contain the equipment and component standards most common in this type of business. Even with all this, foreign "independent" organizations will in every possible way hinder the spread of our modern and promising aircraft under the most far-fetched pretexts. Nobody needs competitors.
    1. aviator65
      aviator65 1 November 2015 20: 06
      0
      Quote: tracer
      So all these airports are standardized (electronic support, maintenance, technical service, etc.) for the main types of aircraft. These "basic types" are Boeing and Airbus products.

      But what, our domestic planes do not fly to foreign airports? Even if you do not take passenger air transportation. Under the Union, Aeroflot also flew around the world by no means on Boeing, and did it have problems at foreign airports?
      Quote: tracer
      Such citizens would like to remind what is the most important thing in air transportation. So the most important thing is to get a stable profit. Deliver passengers and cargo to various points of the globe.

      Here, in the first place should be transport safetybut it’s worth writing about profit at the very end. Boarding a plane, I want to think about the fact that I will safely reach my destination, and not about the fact that I got on an expensive attraction with an unpredictable end.
  42. AlNick
    AlNick 1 November 2015 10: 04
    +5
    Quote: Enot-poloskun
    And now we are fixated on making a profit! It is not right.

    A classmate worked for a while in a small airline (just a few Mi-8s).
    He had to argue with the leading "effective manager" about flight safety, the frequency of maintenance and the legality of minor repairs.
    In response, as a result I heard: "Don't bother us to earn money!"
    The next day, quit ...
  43. tracer
    tracer 1 November 2015 10: 11
    0
    Quote: tracer
    The author’s anger is fair and I share it, but seriously: The state airline will always be more expensive

    Sorry, but you never noticed that good things are always more expensive. And this applies to everything, even cosmodromes. Well, there are no good and cheap Mercedes, even though you burst. It happens cheaply, only a plastic bucket on plastic wheels is made in India. You have to pay for all the good.
  44. Simple
    Simple 1 November 2015 10: 12
    0
    The nature of the destruction suggests that the pilots still brought the aircraft to the horizontal.
    But because of the unacceptably high vertical speed, the plane simply "folded". IMHO.
    1. asher
      asher 1 November 2015 15: 41
      0
      And why wouldn’t it be so super-economical, semi-plastic and as light as possible. I suspect that with backup and protection of control systems there were entirely economical solutions. All for profit.
      1. Simple
        Simple 1 November 2015 18: 05
        0
        Quote: asher
        And why wouldn’t it be so super-economical, semi-plastic and as light as possible. I suspect that with backup and protection of control systems there were entirely economical solutions.



        The design of ANY aircraft manned by humans is not designed for such overloads - it makes no sense.

        And do not judge the design of aircraft for civil aviation by the level of their education - from the outside it looks ridiculous.
  45. maestro123
    maestro123 1 November 2015 10: 13
    +4
    But this requires a tough political will of the Russian leadership.
    Author Roman Skomorokhov
    1. GraveBezKresta
      GraveBezKresta 1 November 2015 16: 31
      0
      The trouble is that these liberal ghouls do not fly these planes and do not float on these old troughs. The tragedy of "Bulgaria" - 122 people died. Most of them are children. Question to Putin: after that, at least one new ship is sailing on the Volga ?! Of course, there are no new ships, they "modernize" the old ones, just like the planes ...
  46. Stas157
    Stas157 1 November 2015 10: 18
    +3