Military Review

Once again on the issue of reconstructing the weapons of the era of the Trojan War. Warriors in armor and helmets (part 12)

121
Referring to the topic of reconstruction of weapons of warriors of bronze, it is easy to see that ... here historians and reenactors, one might say, were very fortunate that the people of that time were pagans and put everything that surrounded them in this world into their graves. Here are the Christian knights buried dressed in a shroud, and what can we say about what they had weapons in the relatively early Middle Ages? Kolchugs broke, swords re-crafted into new, modern designs, and we have to use only miniatures and effects. From later times, the armor itself, and their images on miniatures and the same effigies and brasses (planar engravings on copper and brass) that confirm each other, but with the early Middle Ages, have reached us.


But the bronze age is much easier to reconstruct. There are a lot of finds, and their degree of preservation is very high. And besides, there are many iconographic monuments. And it helps to reconstruct the appearance of the warriors of that era, first to artists, and then to “applied craftsmen.”

Once again on the issue of reconstructing the weapons of the era of the Trojan War. Warriors in armor and helmets (part 12)

"Duel of Achaean and Trojan Warriors". Artist J. Rava.

For example, the drawing by artist Giuseppe Rava "Duel of the Achaean and Trojan Warriors". One may argue about the fact that they could not be barefoot (“the sand burns”), although the Maasai warriors, the Bushmen in the Kalahari Desert, and the Dayak “headhunters” in Borneo walk around and barely manage, somehow cost. But everything else is what is, what we see and what you can hold on to. Swords, like what the warrior keeps on the left, are found all over Europe, from Ireland to Bulgaria, and further on in Palestine, Syria and Egypt. Helmets on their heads were found. Their images are found. Images of shields - are available. There is also armor (as many as three!), Like what the warrior wears on the right.


"Fresco from Paestum".

Bronze armor is also clearly visible in the Samnite warriors from Paestum in Lucania. It is believed that this mural can be dated IV. BC. On the warriors muscular cuirass, helmets with shoulder pads and back pads, leggings. The helmets are decorated with feathers, the shield is round, the rider has no saddle, no stirrups, no shoes, but he wears a bracelet on the ankle. The average warrior on the spears of the loop - therefore, they were used for throwing.


Achaean armor and helmet (c.1400 BC). Nafplion Museum. Greece.

Therefore, when the Greek restorer of armor and armament Katsikis Dimitrios decided to repeat this armor, he had no particular problems. It was enough to go to the Nafplion Museum ...

As a result, he had two impressive Mycenaean "warriors" in ancient armor. Alone in the "armor of Dendra." Another in the typical armament of the "peoples of the sea." And both of these sets are very similar to the later knight armor. However, there is nothing surprising here. Anatomically, people have not changed. Two hands, two legs, neck ... and how to protect all this to the maximum? The only way!


Impressive "armor" and impressive work!


Compare and verify their almost complete authenticity.

But he didn’t make his helmet for “armor from Dendra” to make their boar tusks, but he made them from leather and covered it with bronze badges. He himself writes about this helmet like this: “This is a complex helmet with a conical cross-section. The helmet consists of a bronze rim in the shape of a dome, on which a shell of organic materials is firmly fixed. The shell is made of linen fabric and covered with leather on top. Above this organic dome, eleven bronze disks of various diameters are symmetrically located.


Leather helmet to "Armor of Dendra."

At the top of the helmet is a tapered wooden bush for the horse's tail. Inside the helmet has a thick woolen lining for better fixation on the head, and to effectively dampen the force of the blows. In such helmets, their strength and protective abilities are striking, despite the fact that there is no uniform metal sheath on them. ”


“Helmet Menelaus” is simpler and consists of three bronze plates connected on rivets. Four horns - painted wood. They give it an awesome appearance, but, like knightly “horns,” were fixed insecurely so that the blow struck on them could not be transmitted to the cervical vertebrae.

Interestingly, no less interesting armor and helmets are made on the other side of the planet, namely in the USA. Among the reenactors there should be Matt Poitras, from Austin, Texas. He is engaged in the reconstruction of the armor 16 years. Among his diverse works is the theme of the Trojan War.
Here, for example, as he, in accordance with the description in the Iliad, recreated Odyssey's helmet from boar tusks. The base of the helmet is tied with leather straps at the top. Above it are fangs, drilled and sewn between themselves "shoemaker drag". Bronze nashechniki and nazatylnik with fur lining.


Here is what it looks like outside ...


And so from the inside


Well, these are all parts of it.


He dressed the most cunning Odyssey in leather armor with metal plates sewn on them and armed him with a spear, a sword, and supplied him with a shield of a characteristic form.


This photo clearly shows the thickness of the skin of this armor, and how the bronze plates are sewn onto the skin.


The sword with the bone handle of Matt is in the sheath, trimmed with fur.


And we see the same fur lining for the hand on his shield.


With this shield, Matt supplied his “Achilles”, which he wore in equally solid armor and also in a “grivasty” Achaean helmet with horns. The breastplate of his is made according to the type of the "peoples of the sea". Here he especially did not fantasize, unlike the reconstruction of Odyssey's armor.


The maned and horned "helmet of Achilles" on the device is very simple. It is a bronze hemisphere elongated in the shape of a skull with a riveted plate of a crown and naschechnikami on the loops. Horns, of course, although "scary", but also "toy", for beauty.


According to Matt, the armor of that era was multi-layered and it is difficult to argue against that, because it’s clear that two or three layers of skin protect better than one, and not so much is added in weight.

As for helmets, they could be made both by casting and forging and also in mixed technology. So, even in Soviet times, a helmet was found in Central Asia, which was cast entirely in bronze and with walls 3 mm thick. It was noted that it is heavy, but its protective properties are exceptionally high. The same could make and Mycenae gunsmiths, and even decorate his head with a horse tail is so obvious that it is clear without Homer, that it could well be so!

It should be noted here that Matt’s armor was shot several times in the cinema, although the accuracy of the reconstruction (and above all the material and weight!) In this case did not play any role. The main thing is the appearance, and what is done of what is the tenth thing!

And here, by the way, it remains only to regret that he did not dress the participants of the most famous film about the Trojan War - “Troy” with Brad Pitt in the title role. I will not talk about the movie itself - the critics have already dealt with it and have expressed their opinions as a work of cinema. But with regard to the armor, it should be noted that they are not at all historical, and why this is so unknown. After all, the creators of "Troy" had two completely win-win options: the first was to make a film with costumes depicted on Greek vases, that is, the 6th - 5th centuries. BC. It would not be historical either, but for many it is recognizable and familiar. The second is to use costumes in the style of the same Matt Poitras, known for vases and frescoes of the Mycenaean era - with characteristic horns, and all the rest, which, by the way, could have been very effective. For example, making a helmet for the same Odyssey.

The third option was chosen, however. A kind of hybrid has been created with an incomprehensible abundance of fine details that are completely uncharacteristic for that era. Somewhere on another planet ... that would be just right, but not on Earth at any time that we know well enough. Moreover, it is unclear from what material they are all made, because on the screen they are almost all black! The only time when the armor at Achilles looks like copper is a short scene on the ship just before disembarking on the land of Troas. True, in separate episodes the shields laid out by the “copper” flash, but there are few of them, even though polished copper would have to shine there completely.


Shot from the movie "Troy". What is it, why, and from what? Why so many small and completely unnecessary parts? Raise the price for the manufacture of armor? It's already clear that the "fairy tale", but still it is necessary and the measure to know.

After all, copper and bronze armor was customarily brushed so that they shine. "Helmet Helicopter" is what Homer is talking about! And here both helmets, and armor, and shields (the latter at least somehow resemble ancient samples, and that is not all!), All are for some reason black. And the Greeks and Trojans! The main color is dark, no gloss. But, for example, armor and shields in the Italian film "The Feats of Hercules" (1958). Let it be a fairy tale, but ... it looks more real than the "fairy tale" about Troy, shot in 2004, with very different possibilities. And ... the most important thing is that the actors still need something to wear, so why not just put them on right away?


Shot from the movie "Troy". The armor of Achilles was clean, but for some reason forgotten to yourself?

The author is grateful to Katsikis Dimitrios (http://www.hellenicarmors.gr) and Matt Poitras for the opportunity to use their photos of armor (http://www.mpfilmcraft.com/mpfilmcraft/Home.html), as well as the Greek association Korivantes »(Koryvantes.org), which provided photographs of their reconstructions.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Weapons and armor of soldiers of the Trojan War. Swords and daggers (part one)
Armor of the Trojan War (part two)
Armor warriors of the Trojan War. Helmets (part three)
http://topwar.ru/83250-schity-troyanskoy-voyny-chast-chetvertaya.html
Weapons of the Trojan War. Spears (part five)
Weapons of the Trojan War. Bow and Arrows (part six)
The Trojan War and its reconstruction (seventh part) - ending
Trojan War: ships and chariots
The Trojan War and the "peoples of the sea." “English historians report ...” (part nine)
"Peoples of the Sea". Armor and weapons (part ten)
Once again to the question of the reconstruction of the armor of the era of the Trojan War. Warriors with Shields (part 11)
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  1. tanit
    tanit 6 November 2015 07: 32
    +2
    And why does the Achaean armored soldier need a 400-year-old infantryman’s shield? Notice a word about bare feet. smile
    1. kalibr
      6 November 2015 07: 55
      +3
      And how do you want me to answer your question?
      1. tanit
        tanit 6 November 2015 08: 03
        +3
        The question is rhetorical. But. The cycle of your publications is about the era of the Trojan War, right? And it turned out about the Mycenaean-Cretan era, which stretched for 500 years. Accordingly, and the drawings - something like this - "Polish hussars of 1615 against the motorized rifle brigade of 2015"
        Best regards hi
        1. kalibr
          6 November 2015 08: 45
          +7
          Yes you are right. But this is not only my "fault". This is how this topic is considered in the works of Western historians. I don't see any point in narrowing it down, since VO readers now have a complete understanding of how this is all viewed "there". With all the advantages and disadvantages.
        2. Aljavad
          Aljavad 7 November 2015 20: 48
          +2
          commercials for 500 years stretching. Accordingly, and the drawings - something like this - "Polish hussars of 1615 against the motorized rifle brigade of 2015"


          Note! Progress is accelerating. Last year's iPhone sucks. A mother's dress for Frosi Burlakova was cool. And Herr Peter proudly used cannons and squeaked Ivan Vasilich ... Carolingian swords of lope centuries were in price? And then from them Dagestanis also made daggers. Do you think going to the forgotten ruins behind the sword of an ancient hero - a fantasy invention?

          The weapon of the Mycenaean Cretan era could well have been actual for 500 years (not specific samples - models, types). At least until the specific development of iron.
      2. The lead
        The lead 6 November 2015 13: 43
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        And how do you want me to answer your question?
        Bronze plate armor is very suitable for phalanx tactics. Heavily armed soldiers could be placed in the first row, so that the phalanx will gain greater combat stability. The only question is whether the Achaeans had a sufficient number of such armor.
        1. brn521
          brn521 6 November 2015 15: 32
          +1
          Quote: Lead
          Bronze plate armor is very suitable for phalanx tactics.

          Then it’s more logical to leave the back open, and strengthen everything with the released metal in front. Because, as it is, bronze is about 1 mm, it will not hold a spear strike in any way. Maybe it’s just a chariot driver who only held reins in his hands, so powerful shoulder pads did not interfere much. In theory, chariots really did not hope for armor, but for their own attention. They ruled the horses, they themselves dodged spears / arrows and a shooting partner, who did not look around, but focused on finding the target, while covering with a shield. In general, definitely, in the photograph of that character, one would have to have a chariot. And do not give weapons, just reins. And there may be a hefty shield (only balance then how to keep, I do not understand, there is no spring).
          1. tanit
            tanit 6 November 2015 16: 40
            +3
            Quote: brn521
            Bronze plate armor is very suitable for phalanx tactics.

            Yes sir. But the fact is that such armor in those distant times was very piece. And it came complete with a chariot, at least among the Cretan-Mycenaeans. The chariot is also not the most massive thing (then they have it). As for the "eight" mast shield, which often comes across in the drawings of modern authors, it was not used in this way in 1400 BC, and the masters of that era stopped depicting it. And they didn't. hi
            By the way, would the wooden base of the shield base last so many years? And to sheathe the "all-metal" shield with skin? Hmm ... however ... wink
            1. brn521
              brn521 6 November 2015 20: 06
              0
              Quote: tanit
              But the fact is that such armor in those ancient times is extremely piece-wise. And came complete with a chariot

              This particular armor has a serious problem - poor visibility at short range. For a chariot, this is a serious jamb. He must see the horses, and the road, and what is happening nearby nearby. And for the second number, such a canned food is not at all in the subject, neither to shoot at it, nor to throw darts. As a result, we get ceremonial-status armor, nothing else comes to mind. The leader loomed on the battlefield, inspired his fighters by the presence. Supernikov razdarzhal, naturally, so everything flew into him that could only fly. So he covered himself with armor so that fighting in it really would not work. But this I repeat what I wrote below.
              Quote: tanit
              By the way, would the wooden base stand the base of the shield for so many years?

              It depends on what kind of burial. Sometimes even bones are poorly preserved, not to mention leather and wood products.
              Quote: tanit
              And to sheathe the "all-metal" shield with skin?

              The value of metal is that it is solid. A blow that came at an angle, he will redirect to sliding. And the skin on the outside will prevent this. However, making an "anatomical" cuirass is also stupid, the enemy's weapon should not cling to anything. That did not prevent, even in the Middle Ages, some characters from carrying masks instead of a visor, for example.
              1. tanit
                tanit 6 November 2015 21: 25
                0
                This particular armor has a specific and one focus: to break through armor, not in the infantry sector. And certainly not on horseback. Do not look at a restoration with poor visibility. Look at the thumbnail, the photograph of real armor with a real helmet, or the armor itself in the museum. hi
                At the restoration, a completely modern master expressed his vision. But other masters, including modern ones, see this slightly differently.
              2. tanit
                tanit 6 November 2015 21: 43
                +1
                How is the blow taken by the chariot confirmed? Are all the charioteers and all the infantry from the class "keep the line !!!" were pathological cowards? Hardly. And all sorts of different chariots went to the front, and unknown guys from the infantry tried to "keep the line !!!"
                I mean that once again - documented. The number of chariots. Number of lat. Number of swords. Perhaps the number of hired archers. Phalanx ... Oh, phalanx - yes, it could be. But there were no "bronze horsemen" in the infantry order. And the "copper foot soldiers" - the same.
              3. Stilet
                Stilet 7 November 2015 00: 50
                0
                If you look closely at the armor, then it does not create the impression of massiveness and inconvenience and closeness. If we add fabric lining to it (it is more preferable than leather), then in reality it is not such a clumsy "suit". And most likely this is the armor of the charioteer, tk. his entire torso is covered. hips and neck, except for the hands for driving the chariot, which could be covered with leather belts wrapped around the arms and / or bracelets. Outwardly, the armor looks like .. a movable shield .. behind which you can hide for a spear thrower and a noble warrior during an intense shelling. The Greeks, and not only they, were good at throwing spears, therefore, such an armored cover is needed for both the "mechanic" of the chariot and the "gunner-operator". And the legs were covered by the sides of the chariot. Everything is functional and optimized. And perhaps, as a second option, armor for breaking through the line of spearmen - then a round shield or pelta, and an ax is it.
                1. Aljavad
                  Aljavad 7 November 2015 21: 05
                  +1
                  And the legs were covered by the sides of the chariot.


                  It’s not a matter of how WE and YOU would equip themselves in those battles, and how the troops would be lined up or ordered to act.

                  The point is how THEY acted.

                  From our point of view - often absurd, irrational and generally - stupid.
              4. Aljavad
                Aljavad 7 November 2015 20: 57
                +3
                For a chariot, this is a serious jamb. He must see the horses, and the road, and what is happening nearby nearby. And for the second number, such a canned food is not at all in the subject, neither to shoot at it, nor to throw darts.


                So the Achaeans / Aegeans / Danians from the chariots did not seem to fight. Just arrived at the scene of the battle. And about the review - 150 years ago, the Tlingit riveted the same style, only made of wood. And they had no chariots. Only melee.
                1. marline
                  marline 7 November 2015 21: 04
                  0
                  And the truth is, practically the same model, only the material is different ... smile
                2. brn521
                  brn521 9 November 2015 11: 19
                  0
                  Quote: Aljavad
                  And about the review - 150 years ago, the Tlingit riveted the same style, only made of wood. And they had no chariots. Only melee.

                  This is not the same style. Consider no healers. Whereas in the sample under consideration, the shoulder pads are hefty. If it were not for the shoulders, it would be possible to put the owner of the armor into the infantry.
    2. IS-80
      IS-80 6 November 2015 08: 24
      +2
      Quote: tanit
      And why does the Achaean armored soldier need a 400-year-old infantryman’s shield?

      Heirloom. laughing
      1. tanit
        tanit 6 November 2015 08: 36
        +1
        laughing Well, that's unlikely. Although ... The armor and accompanying chariots they (namely the Cretan-Mycenaeans, they do not know about the rest) in the written reports of their "home front service" documented the same swords, but the shields were not included. according to the charter is not allowed. " Then yes, or family, or some other relic. smile
        1. Vend
          Vend 6 November 2015 10: 21
          +2
          Shot from the movie "Troy." What is it, why, and from what?
          Not even worth paying attention to. Hollywood is a bunch of storytellers, far from historic in any film. Article +
      2. Glot
        Glot 6 November 2015 11: 33
        +4
        Heirloom.


        In general, it may very well be.
        I personally saw the Corinthian helmets twice, which have lived for more than 500 years changing owners. They were already patched up at the points of penetration (one in one place, the other in three.) The patches were from those times. Both were actually cut off the cheeks and scaffolds, but they didn’t remove them at all, but replaced the ones that were deaf and solid with a helmet and moving ones. In general, it was evident that these helmets have served for more than one hundred years. Both were from burial grounds, from different. Well, of course there were not only helmets. smile
        So the fact that weapons and ammunition could be transmitted from owner to owner is a fact.
        1. tanit
          tanit 6 November 2015 16: 42
          0
          Quote: Glot
          In general, it may very well be.

          What is the Corinthian helmet made of? From the hide? And the height eight - even in modern drawings either "selfish" at all, or wood-skinned. Most likely - the second option.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    3. Sweles
      Sweles 6 November 2015 12: 09
      -5
      The abundance of images from Hollywood shots, as well as other reconstructions, which are essentially just the imagination of contemporary artists, do not reveal the world of the past to people, but only create a screen and inspire the layman with something that did not exist in reality. The past of humanity was not what the author of the articles represents. What we see is just someone's view of the armies of the past. Looking at such "stories" we must always remember that the world could never be what Hollywood represents to us, worse than that we never do in our life that we see at this dream factory, if we want to correspond to the realities of course. This is called PSEUDOSCIENCE which has there is very little to do with reality.
      1. kalibr
        6 November 2015 18: 05
        +2
        But I am not referring to the "dream factory", I just say - "reality has little to do with reality." Only today I gave a lecture on this cultural phenomenon to students.
      2. tanit
        tanit 6 November 2015 21: 28
        0
        Listen, Sweles, are you saying that Hollywood is older than the written history of mankind? request
        He is what ... belay
    4. datur
      datur 8 November 2015 08: 44
      0
      he is KING !! wink
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 6 November 2015 07: 55
    +3
    But, for example, armor and shields in the Italian film “Feats of Hercules” (1958). Let it be a fairy tale, but ... it looks more real than the "fairy tale" about Troy, filmed in 2004 with completely different possibilities... I watched both films ... in Feats .. the armor looks more realistic .. Thank you ..
    1. kalibr
      6 November 2015 08: 46
      +2
      Yes, I agree with you on that too. "Art" - however!
  3. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 6 November 2015 09: 23
    +3
    Thank you so much for the article! I really liked the helmet with 4 wooden "fangs" or "horns" on the sides and with a tubercle in the center. 4 in the corners + 1 in the center --- like a pyramid! Or a solstice! Or 5 Brahma heads! Or, if the central tubercle is up, then ... PENTAGRAM. In ancient products, nothing happened by chance. If it seems so, then it is!
    Sincerely.
    1. tanit
      tanit 6 November 2015 09: 31
      +1
      Quote: Reptiloid
      4 in the corners + 1 in the center --- like a pyramid! Or a solstice! Or 5 heads of Brahma! Or, if the central tubercle is up, then ... A PENTAGRAM. In ancient products, nothing happened by chance. If it seems so, then it means so!

      Smiled ... I will continue. Or a five-pointed star ...
      So here you are, soldiers of the Red Army laughing
      1. Glot
        Glot 6 November 2015 11: 37
        +2
        Smiled ... I will continue. Or a five-pointed star ...
        So here you are, soldiers of the Red Army


        By the way, met on dr. Greek gizmos, both five-pointed stars, and swastikas. Even the photos were somewhere on the computer. smile
        However, not only in Greek. On gizmos from areas of Asia, India. There it was more common.
        1. tanit
          tanit 6 November 2015 16: 49
          0
          That's it. There were ready-made and familiar characters. The question is, what kind of Brahma should be so sacred? By the way, the five-pointed star also flaunted on the field caps of the Japanese militarists. Here is just something about Brahma or something. And the Greeks. And the Slavs. No, the many-headed monster (monster) is available to all peoples. And almost no one has 5 chapters. But here is what it is Brahma ... Hmm ..
          Me
          Quote: tanit
          If it seems so --- it means so!

          - it is fun. hi
    2. kalibr
      6 November 2015 18: 05
      0
      I can't answer you either "yes" or "no" - I don't know.
  4. marline
    marline 6 November 2015 09: 51
    +2
    Thanks for the article, as always wonderful.
    The only thing, it seemed to me that the Achaean plate armor is a bit too big for the reconstructor in the photo, or is this, in general, a rather bulky design?
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    4. kalibr
      6 November 2015 18: 08
      +3
      Well, you yourself see everything, everything is in front of you. It also seemed to me that the collar was too much like a samovar, but ... who knows how it was there? Armor from Dendra is - is. And the one who put on the reconstruction, may indeed be "small" for her.
  5. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 10: 21
    +2
    Great selection.
    But....
    ".. And both of these sets are very similar to later knightly armor. However, there is nothing surprising here. Anatomically, people have not changed ..."
    By rough estimates, between these "early knight armor" and the later knights - two thousand years, right? Minimum.
    People have not changed, I believe, and agree. Despite the fact that from childhood I was buzzing in my ears about acceleration.
    Question - brains also have not changed in two thousand years?
    Two thousand years of ossification in the brain?
    Or even even worse - knightly armor made two thousand years ago. Then forgot what for. Identified. Exactly two thousand years.
    And after this time - the broads and the same armor again rivet, but already from steel.
    Something here is not fitting in my brain.
    .
    The most interesting thing is that the "armor from Dendra" is one in one heavy knightly TOURNAMENT armor, with a characteristic protection of the throat, such as "toad's head" and the distribution of the weight of the helmet (armet with a barbut, so I believe) on the shoulders of the warrior.
    1. marline
      marline 6 November 2015 10: 46
      +3
      Yes, all our ancestors in the Middle Ages understood ... There simply weren’t the necessary technologies to create full plate armor ... And when they appeared, then, as they say, it was too late.
    2. brn521
      brn521 6 November 2015 12: 48
      +1
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      The most interesting thing is that "armor from Dendra" is one in one heavy knightly TOURNAMENT armor

      "Armor from Dendra" is not that heavy, just uncomfortable and specific. kalibr writes, (http://topwar.ru/83055-dospehi-troyanskoy-voyny-chast-vtoraya.html), the main plates, protecting the carcass, 1mm thick in total. Little bronze, so thin too. What kind of tournament can there be?
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 13: 25
        0
        And I don’t speak for the tournament.
        As for me, so on bronze-copper they just worked out the technologies for assembling and binding armor.
        It was painfully expensive steel to immediately forge it was necessary to forge test armor.
        Simply put - modeling, as it is now accepted.
        And the specificity immediately becomes clear - "trial balloon".
        .
        And that's not the point for me, for example.
        Where to go three thousand years of historyKarl? Where?
        Well, I can’t believe that human people forged, forged armor ... and once suddenly they were so dumb that they completely forgot how.
        That from the 4th century, after the collapse (supposedly) of Rome (supposedly) and before the Renaissance, the masters only stupidly forged horseshoes, collecting rusty scrap along the Catalan fields.
        And then - figase - the most sophisticated, honed Milanese armor.
        Why didn’t they return to bronze, to copper, from which supposedly Roman armor was made?
        Or maybe - bronze-copper armor served only as shiny trinkets, anatomical cuirasses where emphasize the figure as beneficial.
        Before Cleopatra show off and the Senate - put on a shiny copper. Like Hector.
        Go into battle - put on a reliable, but clumsy steel cuirass.
        Could this be?
        1. Sweles
          Sweles 6 November 2015 13: 33
          0
          Quote: Bashibuzuk
          It was painfully expensive steel to immediately forge it was necessary to forge test armor.


          steel appeared in 7th c.
          1. marline
            marline 6 November 2015 15: 00
            +1
            Quote: Sveles
            Quote: Bashibuzuk
            It was painfully expensive steel to immediately forge it was necessary to forge test armor.

            steel appeared in 7th c.

            Fomenko said? Where does the figure in 7th century AD come from?
        2. brn521
          brn521 6 November 2015 14: 47
          +2
          Quote: Bashibuzuk
          It was painfully expensive steel to immediately forge it was necessary to forge test armor.

          Then why was only one, very primitive pattern preserved? In the Middle Ages, the evolution of armor was in full swing, especially in the end. Ready-made kits contained many practical details. According to your logic, such an advance should have been accompanied by the creation of many bronze test items. Instead, some single junk. In terms of the Bronze Age, an advanced thing. And to attach some Milan armor to this shit, to disgrace only.
          Quote: Bashibuzuk
          And then - figase - the most sophisticated, honed Milanese armor.

          This "figase" is being reproduced right before our eyes. There are certain components in civilizations and cultures. If they are, technologies are growing by leaps and bounds. If not, then the communities can vegetate for millennia in the Stone Age.
          Quote: Bashibuzuk
          Where did three thousand years of history go?

          The concept of constant "interference" is closer to me. For example, there is a microcivilization of technically quite advanced anthropomorphic "gods" that humanity is specially cultivated. What would they prescribe as a key technology? I think it would be just right to travel forward in time, in essence conservation, the fundamental laws of physics that does not contradict. I set an alarm clock for a million years, then woke up on the call and was reactivated. So it is possible to move around the universe at a snail's speed, time means almost nothing. Look for a suitable planet, sow self-developing life there, or correct the existing one so that the conditions are more convenient for them. Slaves / lower caste / genetic material will slowly be left where conditions are favorable. Leaving them for hundreds and thousands of years for brood is not a problem for themselves, like one second. Pull on successful samples, put them in one pile and transport them to another place, which is better. And the part for conservation, just in case, all of a sudden, while the "gods" are in stasis, everyone outside will die out from some nonsense. The very gods from the myths who created and destroyed peoples, gave knowledge, etc. And then they produced sons and supplied them with additional knowledge and high-tech nishtyaks. I note that the gods in this sense are not mythical intangible supernatural beings, but someone like ourselves. In general, it's a handy thing to have different ends that are in the office. stories hide in the water, tie them in a single knot, and do not tear them away from modernity (modern mythology also fits well into the concept, including the popular idea of ​​"forged history").
        3. marline
          marline 6 November 2015 15: 14
          0
          Quote: Bashibuzuk
          Where to go three thousand years of historyKarl? Where?
          Well, I can’t believe that human people forged, forged armor ... and once suddenly they were so dumb that they completely forgot how.
          That from the 4th century, after the collapse (supposedly) of Rome (supposedly) and before the Renaissance, the masters only stupidly forged horseshoes, collecting rusty scrap along the Catalan fields.
          And then - figase - the most sophisticated, honed Milanese armor.

          In the Middle Ages, kawaii was considered chain mail / chain armor. In their own way, they were very good for that time and the laboriousness of the manufacturing work was greater in comparison with the segmented loric.
          Scale armor, again, was always present.
          What 3 thousand years have you been talking about the disappearance?
          1. Bashibuzuk
            Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 15: 49
            0
            The armor from Dendera is 1500 BC. Or not? 1000 years? 500 years old? How many.
            Milan Tournament Armor - 1500 AD Round off everything, round off.
            The difference in material and performance.
            There is bronze, here is steel.
            There is uncertain forging, then forging you will love.
            In general, evolution can be said.
            So what? Has this evolution taken 3000 years? 2500? 2000?
            Etc.
            Plate armor, and, as an option, chain armor give a very acceptable degree of protection and a good degree of mobility - for infantry.
            But one-piece, cuirass-like exactly the opposite - for riders with stirrups.
            How does history say that striking power was in antiquity?
            1. marline
              marline 6 November 2015 16: 13
              0
              Quote: Bashibuzuk
              The armor from Dendera is 1500 BC. Or not? 1000 years? 500 years old? How many.
              Milan Tournament Armor - 1500 AD Round off everything, round off.
              The difference in material and performance.
              There is bronze, here is steel.
              There is uncertain forging, then forging you will love.
              In general, evolution can be said.
              So what? Has this evolution taken 3000 years? 2500? 2000?

              You forget about the evolution of bronze and steel armor, but you can trace it, there were also torrexes and gelothoraxes in bronze; for steel from brigantine to Maximilian armor. And pay attention, the tasks of stiffeners in antiquity and the Middle Ages were solved differently.
              Quote: Bashibuzuk
              Plate armor, and, as an option, chain armor give a very acceptable degree of protection and a good degree of mobility - for infantry.
              But one-piece, cuirass-like exactly the opposite - for riders with stirrups.

              Do not tell. Here is a photo of the Landsknecht armor
            2. kalibr
              6 November 2015 18: 18
              +3
              Yes, apparently, such a long evolution. But it gradually accelerated, and now it is jumping straight ahead.
        4. tanit
          tanit 6 November 2015 16: 55
          +2
          Quote: Bashibuzuk
          Could it be

          Well, then they gathered all the steel armored armor and together drowned them in the Mariana Trench. Yes, and left detailed instructions on the festival disc for the elite - how to make bronze armor, how to fake ceramics and murals with bas-reliefs, how to fake Egyptian hieroglyphs and linear writing.
          laughing
          1. Bashibuzuk
            Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 17: 07
            +1
            Not excluded, not excluded .... laughing
            1. tanit
              tanit 6 November 2015 17: 15
              +1
              By the way, the difference is in the armor - pay attention. A "bronze soldier" could not have become a similar rider. He has armor - it doesn't seem to fit for riding (he fought in one way or another - but standing, on a chariot or on foot). But with the "steel horseman" of the Middle Ages, everything is in order here.
              1. Bashibuzuk
                Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 17: 25
                +2
                Yes, that's right.
                I can’t get rid of the feeling given to me in the sensations that this Dender armor and the armor, the photo of which I posted, is separated by two hundred and three hundred years. And even less.
                Well, I can not help myself.
                That's why I cried out - where, they say, three thousand years?
                Etc.
                The master, the hammer, the blacksmith, thought - but should I swipe at the armor, which FIG will pierce with what? Swung.
                Then I realized what needs to be done in a slightly different way, from a different material.
                As a result, his grandson forged the one whose photo I posted.
                And the grandfather, with his Derder armor, remained dense, in ancient antiquity.
                Option?
                1. tanit
                  tanit 6 November 2015 17: 58
                  +4
                  Option. But that's just not 200-300 years.
                  Remained from prehistoric (pre-antique, or rather) times to the early Middle Ages, and to the Middle Ages in general - much more than came down to us. But whoever is still able to portray in a drawing or mural ...
                  For example - heavy riders were ready. Yes, they were, were, and even described ... But their armor was not found. And no one made "painted" amphorae in those dark (medieval) times. Who could do or draw - you were already dead, for the most part. And who survived did not know how to draw. And do the same amphora.
                  They learned to draw much "after later", even write too ... But not all and not all at once. Take manuscripts, for example. He wrote, who did not see what happened. And since I have not seen the illustrations for the manuscript - from the field "as I see around" - so I draw. Why is there a "dark" Middle Ages - "renaissance and in some places revival" - to see biblical stories - so there are all either Italians or Flemings ... laughing
                  Quote: Bashibuzuk
                  The master, the hammer, the blacksmith, thought - but should I swipe at the armor, which FIG will pierce with what? Swung.

                  But for a master, if he is a master, perhaps, at one time, one glance at something that survived from the "bronze" times was enough to understand and refine.
                  Maybe.
                  1. kalibr
                    6 November 2015 18: 23
                    +4
                    "For example, heavy horsemen were ready. Yes, they were, were, and even described ... But their armor was not found. And no one did" painted "amphorae in those dark (medieval) times. Who could have made or Most of them were already dead to draw. And those who survived were not able to draw. And to do the same amphorae.
                    They learned to draw much "after later", even write too ... But not all and not all at once. Take manuscripts, for example. He wrote, who did not see what happened. And since I have not seen the illustrations for the manuscript - from the field "as I see around" - so I draw. Why is there a "dark" Middle Ages - "renaissance and in some places revival" - to see biblical stories - so there are all either Italians or Flemings. "

                    Very entertaining, but in my opinion, the correct judgment. It always has been and always is: in one place a person knows, but cannot. In another can, but does not know. In the third - maybe he knows, but ... does not know how!
                    1. tanit
                      tanit 6 November 2015 19: 20
                      0
                      Well, about "blocking the curl butted the sides and the stock curls the side" (am I correctly describing your test based on the literary translation of "Alice in ..."? - You still have not so many interesting opinions, I am sure, over the past 25 years - have heard enough. And now we've read a lot. smile
                      1. kalibr
                        6 November 2015 21: 20
                        +2
                        I have been listening to them since 1977, when I got to work with a village school. Then in 1982, the university and ... pearl went! But here they are often interesting and smart, so not only write here, but also respond to comments is worth it!
                      2. tanit
                        tanit 6 November 2015 21: 34
                        0
                        Well ... But that's not what the children said such words laughing ... Special thanks to you. Because you are a historian. hi
                      3. kalibr
                        7 November 2015 08: 28
                        +1
                        Vadim, memories of that time. I sit on duty in a boarding school. Kolya Chushkin and Vitya Shnyakin (grades 5-6) are sitting outside the door and "talking." "Have you seen how a peasant woman e ...? How many times! My father, like a drunkard, pounces on his mother, and she shouts: Vitka, hit him in the ass with a rolling pin, I'm tired today!"
                        What is it, huh ?!
                  2. Aljavad
                    Aljavad 7 November 2015 21: 31
                    0
                    "Silent kuzdra shteko budlanula bokra and kurdyachit bokrenka" (

                    This is not from Alice.

                    This is a rigorous science. A very revealing linguistic experiment on the semantic loading of affixes.
                    was proposed by academician L.V. Shcherba in the 1930s for his narrowly professional purposes.
    3. kalibr
      6 November 2015 18: 16
      +1
      I think quite! Just the lack of logic underneath and confirms. People are illogical people! And then there was the "age of chain mail", then the "age of mixed armor", then the "age of white armor". This has been proven. That is, continuity and genesis can be traced. And even on effigies. I wrote here an article about effigies. There are ... a lot of them. Look!
  • kalibr
    6 November 2015 18: 12
    +1
    That's why I wrote it! But ... what confuses you? Succession term? Does it bother you that we still use "animal" surnames - Volkov, Sinitsym, Medvedev? A relic of totemism - "Son of the Wolf", "Son of the Bear". In general, the Upper Paleolithic, the beginning of culture and a wonder to this day! The inertia of people's thinking is colossal!
  • Aljavad
    Aljavad 7 November 2015 21: 17
    +1
    Question - brains also have not changed in two thousand years?
    Two thousand years of ossification in the brain?
    Or even even worse - knightly armor made two thousand years ago. Then forgot what for.

    And what is this age? Or not armor? But before that - 400 years of armor did not.

    However, the people are the same, and their brains are the same. The tasks and opportunities are different.
  • dvg79
    dvg79 6 November 2015 10: 41
    +2
    It is just that development proceeds in a spiral and over time, successful ideas are reincarnated, but from other materials using different technologies, recall the revival of personal protection in the 20th century.
  • Romans
    Romans 6 November 2015 11: 15
    0
    Why is this "Fresco from Paestum" here? Does she describe warriors from a completely different era? And bronze details in armor were used until the end of antiquity as a historical period.
    1. kalibr
      6 November 2015 18: 24
      +1
      Show that the bronze in the armor was used for a long time! A little behind the ears, but clearly. And has this really spoiled the material?
    2. Aljavad
      Aljavad 7 November 2015 21: 45
      0
      Why is this "Fresco from Paestum" here?


      And I liked the fresco! At first I was surprised: and no comforters made of fur or felt? I thought and understood. So no one will hit the pumpkin hard! What are they armed with? Spears and stabbing "swords", short.
  • miru mir
    miru mir 6 November 2015 11: 24
    +6
    I enjoy your every article! Thank you so much)
  • brn521
    brn521 6 November 2015 11: 45
    +1
    Quote: merlin
    The only thing, it seemed to me that the Achaean plate armor is a bit too big for the reconstructor in the photo, or is this, in general, a rather bulky design?

    Yes, a strange design. Killed in the trash review and no way to restore it. Here he will be the one who will also put on a helmet with horns. Scarecrow-stuffed, clean neighing. However, such a character could have been terrifying for the warriors there: obviously crazy, but how else he bites, and suddenly it’s contagious ... Of course, it’s not serious, but just as he imagined himself in this tin. Yes, it is necessary to fight in it ...
    Where to put this junk. The author wrote
    the people of that time were pagans and put to their dead men in the graves everything that surrounded them in this world.
    What do we now use in funeral rites? All kinds of tinsel, souvenirs, junk, nowhere else unusable. Here is this armor. Suppose it was useful, but status-wise, say. Those. Some kind of "bump" wears it, and a normal warrior will not even covet. And it is not a pity to put it in the coffin with the deceased "bump". Further, why does the "bump" need this uncomfortable tin? Suppose he did not fight in it, but formally participated in battles and parades. Let's say he stood on a chariot, sparkling with polished armor. The legs are covered by the chariot itself. But everything else is in sight, and asks to throw or poke this dude with something. But it will not work, because even the head from this angle is almost completely covered by the armor itself. In general, I think this armor is not for the war itself, but in order to portray a banner. Shining with polished bronze, gleaming with some expensive and gore-eyed purple cloak, as well as a tail borrowed from a nearby peacock as a plume on a helmet. But not taking an active part in the fights. So if we are talking about photographs, that character should be well decorated and mounted on a chariot.
    1. marline
      marline 6 November 2015 13: 23
      0
      Quote: brn521
      Yes, a strange design. Killed in the trash review and no way to restore it. Here he will be the one who will also put on a helmet with horns. Scarecrow-stuffed, clean neighing. However, such a character could have been terrifying for the warriors there: obviously crazy, but how else he bites, and suddenly it’s contagious ... Of course, it’s not serious, but just as he imagined himself in this tin. Yes, it is necessary to fight in it ...

      It is possible that it was. In any case, such a quantity of scarce metal per carcass can only be spent by the Leader.
      Although, what can I say, it looks great like late medieval armor. Simply, specifically from the photo, the impression is that the reenactor is like Gavrosh in it.
      1. brn521
        brn521 6 November 2015 15: 17
        0
        Quote: merlin
        In any case, such a quantity of scarce metal per carcass can only be spent by the Leader.

        Reconstructors and counters for that period produce considerable metal production in the empires of that time. From 50g (Egypt) to 300g (Babylon) of bronze per person per year. The link to the article was already given somehow by http://voprosik.net/globalizaciya-i-krizis-bronzovogo-veka/.
        300 g of iron on the nose by medieval standards at one time was almost the norm.
        Quote: merlin
        Simply, specifically from the photo, the impression is that the reenactor is like Gavrosh in it.

        That’s what they are talking about, they copied the dimensions from a real sample. Either the owner was a mutant with a long neck, or he needed it. The review is poor, and the tin is flimsy. Well, if at the level of automotive tin. But it should be noted that the reenactors love car doors even with ordinary stone weapons. So I had to shove this character with such armor not just on the chariot, but also away from the battle itself. Normal fighters, even in the Middle Ages, compensated for the weakness of armor in close combat with visibility and mobility. And this, respectively, all the more so in melee only drag to certain death. In the Middle Ages only horse knights had powerful shoulder pads. And the infantry dispensed either with small ones or without any shoulder pads at all - the mobility of the hands was appreciated. On the sample, they are excessively large and seemingly uncomfortable - they will interfere with normal swing and hit.
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 7 November 2015 21: 49
        +1
        Yes, a strange design.


        Or maybe it’s a ritual-funeral product?
        A flimsy simplified copy of the real thing?
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 6 November 2015 14: 38
    0
    In the film, almost all wars are computer. I suspect that the color and brilliance of the figures were selected as the cheapest or fastest for computer processing.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 6 November 2015 16: 34
    0
    Quote: Sveles
    Quote: Bashibuzuk
    It was painfully expensive steel to immediately forge it was necessary to forge test armor.


    steel appeared in 7th c.

    I want to clarify: Antonio Arribas in the book "Iberians", M.Tsentrpoligraf, 2004, gives data on the IRON weapons among the Celts in the XNUMXth century BC! I have other sources, I hope to provide them.

    Dear Vyacheslav, I am embarrassed to ask: where is Tatiana, the author of the article on the Staffordshire treasure? I really regret that I could not immediately read her article, I was late ...

    I would like to add about the chronology: during wars, fires, natural disasters, CHANGE OF CIVILIZATIONS, sources disappear, are lost, intentionally destroyed barbarously, from PURE EVIL. This is written in a 5-volume book about Atlantis, Publishing House "Veche", 2004. Also about this wrote Arnold Joseph Toynbee in his thick book Comprehension of History, which was stolen from me on the train.
    1. tanit
      tanit 6 November 2015 16: 57
      +1
      And you are aware that steel and iron, in the arms business, how could you explain it softer to you, is not the same thing? laughing
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 17: 39
        +1
        Yes, in principle, everyone is in the know, but they do not bother with subtle differences in steel and iron.
        But, now, regarding Fe alloys, an idea occurred to me.
        After all, we all know the iron column in Delhi, which does not rust.
        So she is an alloy.
        It may well be that from meteorite iron, which is already with additives, they prepared some kind of exclusive equipment - knives, swords, helmets.
        The hassle was above the roof, but it was worth it, half-cold otkovka. With difficulty, honestly, I imagine.
        In my opinion, it occurred to Efremov that steel was already known in Ancient Egypt. There is no talk about India at all.
        They did not want to process, troublesome, long, unprofitable.
        This is just how orders were flooded.
        1. tanit
          tanit 6 November 2015 18: 11
          0
          Hmm ... And among the Assyrians, whole warehouses (treasuries in the royal palace) filled with iron are described and partially found (well, here is a "bauble with a manichka" such was always with the kings - to keep what is most valuable)
          What is characteristic is iron. Not cast iron, not steel.
          1. Bashibuzuk
            Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 18: 17
            +2
            I have not heard about this.
            Why store iron?
            They sucked him, or what? Did you increase your hemoglobin?
            Why do you need raw iron?
            Etc.
            Etc.
            Ahhh, got it.
            The Annunaki and Nibiru were waiting. Those who surrender more iron will be castrated less.
            In the name of Enlil and Enki.
            1. tanit
              tanit 6 November 2015 18: 29
              +1
              As a result, the cast iron was handed over. With luminium (and why, Google archaeologists already find solid axes from it, with gunshots and mass destruction, the hammer of Thor, for example) And what didn’t have time to scare away, it’s left laughing
            2. Aljavad
              Aljavad 7 November 2015 21: 55
              0
              Why store iron?

              Mob Reserve
          2. tanit
            tanit 6 November 2015 18: 20
            +1
            The great and talented (I really think so) Efremov (historian and writer) in one fantastic story described an "electric worm" - so cryptozoologists are still sure that this is an old legend ("She will scream - I will complain to the procurator ... Pay no attention. This is our old Caucasian custom ... ")
            Bushkov once referred to the chronicle invented by him (where "you go out and eat" wassat ) - so this is the same evidence (for someone) laughing
            1. Bashibuzuk
              Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 18: 23
              +2
              Is that a fucking jerk then?
              So now, time and time go crazy, discover it in the Gobi.
              Etc.
              They would be hit by an electric catfish in the Nile. Brains would fall into place.
              1. tanit
                tanit 6 November 2015 18: 26
                0
                Well, I'm talking about the same thing. Taking "Thais of Athens" as a basis is about the same. smile
                1. Bashibuzuk
                  Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 18: 34
                  0
                  Not the basis.
                  Although, I read all of Efremova. At least I think so.
                  In the novel "Starships", so it seems, where paleoanthologists dug up a dinosaur skull, punched by an oval hole - I did not believe it initially.
                  And now I don’t know myself, there are publications, I really found such ones. All the same, I have little faith.
                  On the other hand, what he described - a battery found somewhere in the Babylonian ruins - is confirmed. Some kind of calculating machine, I think that the arithmometer is rather confirmed too.
                  Giant hyena-like creatures from "On the Edge of the Oycumene" .... the most important thing is that I dreamed of such horror stories in childhood nightmares. And when I read "On the edge of the Oycumene" it precipitated. Guiche .. bang-tibidoh ....
                  Etc.
                  Crypto paleoantologist Efremov Ivan Antonovich
                  1. tanit
                    tanit 6 November 2015 18: 48
                    +1
                    Note. There are so-called finds on the devil-there some kind of stones .... The most interesting thing is that on those "finds" people and dinosaurs are brothers or enemies for a century, well, contemporaries are unambiguous. But small, but. For some reason, there are images of only those dinosaurs that became known where before the 1950s. And not a single unknown species. Help - the appearance of known species is still being corrected, and a bunch of creatures not depicted on these stones were found in the same Yu-A, which existed much more massively at one time.
                    Although, the skill of working with a dentist's drill + talent + knowledge of the general stylistics of the "pre-Columbian" drawing (it is her, because the Ancient one is quite different from the pre-Columbian one) of South America evokes involuntary admiration.
                  2. kalibr
                    6 November 2015 21: 26
                    +1
                    Brezhnev thought him to be an alien who accepted our appearance and lived among us!
                    1. tanit
                      tanit 6 November 2015 21: 55
                      0
                      And here ... Hmm ... In which volume on which page of the Collected Works of Dear Leonid Ilyich - is it written? laughing
                    2. Aljavad
                      Aljavad 7 November 2015 21: 59
                      0
                      Brezhnev thought him to be an alien who accepted our appearance and lived among us!

                      Progressor!
                  3. Aljavad
                    Aljavad 7 November 2015 21: 58
                    0
                    Some kind of calculating machine, I think the arithmometer is more likely

                    Antikythera mechanism - google. Rather, a planetarium.
                2. kalibr
                  6 November 2015 21: 25
                  +2
                  I remember reading it as a student ... And I was very angry that she there and then famously sheds clothes, but there is no fucking and no ...
                  1. tanit
                    tanit 6 November 2015 22: 35
                    0
                    laughing I’m clarifying that you’re not talking about Brezhnev. wink About Thais hi
                    1. kalibr
                      7 November 2015 08: 29
                      +1
                      This was in an article in the journal Secrets of the twentieth century. Is it really, I certainly do not know.
                  2. marline
                    marline 7 November 2015 17: 33
                    -1
                    Quote: kalibr
                    I remember reading it as a student ... And I was very angry that she there and then famously sheds clothes, but there is no fucking and no ...

                    Well, duck, in the same place Ivan Antonovich explained everything, Thais was not some kind of luponaria there, she was a priestess, therefore, it was impossible to just take and sleep ... only in the order of a ritual cult - on the field there recently plowed or so that day and night after the substances ... and the priestess disagreed on the matter in five minutes))))
                    At one time, the novel, just struck by the fact that the Greeks are shown by people with completely different value orientations. And they say that people do not change ...
        2. kalibr
          6 November 2015 18: 30
          +2
          Column in India! In India! The day is heated so that it is hot all night! Therefore, the dew does not fall on it. And if the rain wets, it dries quickly. So I told another friend of mine who made a career in India. And she said so there, at the column.
          1. tanit
            tanit 6 November 2015 18: 34
            0
            But interestingly, she was at that column. Or she was there, or
            Quote: kalibr
            And she was told there, by the column.

            If it was, why not check it? If she is your fellow historian?
            1. kalibr
              6 November 2015 21: 29
              +1
              And she is surrounded by a fence - a column! And she is not a historian, she is a PR man, is engaged in information support of the project of a solar station somewhere there. Sometimes she comes to her parents in Penza.
              1. tanit
                tanit 6 November 2015 21: 56
                -1
                Well, do not refer to it. hi
        3. Aljavad
          Aljavad 7 November 2015 21: 53
          0
          After all, we all know the iron column in Delhi, which does not rust.


          Where buried - slightly rust. And the composition of the alloy found out. There the main catch is the size of the casting.
    2. kalibr
      6 November 2015 18: 27
      +2
      Tatyana is my colleague, works with me in high school. As well as Svetlana Denisova. Here I decided to write ...
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. tanit
        tanit 6 November 2015 18: 39
        0
        Here Svetlana Denisova wrote a wonderful article. But, again, as a tourist. But not like your colleague.
        The attempt is excellent (about your colleague Svetlana). A great essay was written on the subject. But - is that what the historian writes like that ?!
        Even you, when writing popularly and massively accessible - you are a historian (this is not a compliment, this is a statement of fact) hi
        1. Bashibuzuk
          Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 18: 41
          +1
          And what is the humidity in Delhi?
          Humidity with temperature will cause corrosion even faster.
          1. tanit
            tanit 6 November 2015 19: 13
            +1
            You know, but Vyacheslav Olegovich "kalibr" Shpakovsky has one very rare habit for a historian - to write only about what he held in his hands or saw with his own eyes. Or write about something, if the same actions were performed by people whose competence he does not doubt.
            The exception is "tank" articles ... Well ... At this point - what kind of hobby was there. And who sees how. But in this thread - he writes about "how I see", and not about "you are all stupid people."
            1. Bashibuzuk
              Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 19: 34
              +2
              And I noted that.
              A story of a passionate person about the work done.
              Regardless of prevailing trends.
              Friendly approach to opponents. But what about opponents, critics who are brainless, frankly, screaming screamers.
              It costs a lot.
              Etc.
              And great illustrations. A sight for sore eyes.
        2. kalibr
          6 November 2015 21: 31
          +1
          So I am a historian by education, but she is not, she is a writer, she works in the publishing department. But since many of the most diverse books are being ruled by professors-doctors-candidates + articles — she was very well-trained. She believed in her strength ...
          1. tanit
            tanit 6 November 2015 22: 56
            0
            And who is this from? Discover the secret. Svetlana or Tatyana? winked So they, these unknown people, also have access to your account? wink
            Here's how ... Just kidding. hi
            So. So what? The photographs are genuine. The fact that the photographs are true. Artifacts do not cause doubts.
            To what I "stuck" - until "drawing on a theme". And this is just one less dash more vocal claim to the author, which he explained and chewed ...
            What, now, to the Glory of Brahma? Or someone else? wassat
            1. kalibr
              7 November 2015 08: 33
              0
              Both work with me in the same university. But they themselves do not want to open their account and have all the associated troubles. Then they have problems with a selection of illustrations. Therefore, they give me materials, I sometimes correct them, if necessary I add a photo. Here is a creative collaboration. There is also a graduate student Svetlana Timoshina, she is now also preparing a large article on her dissertation topic.
  • Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk 6 November 2015 19: 14
    +2
    Quote: Bashibuzuk
    And what is the humidity in Delhi?
    Humidity with temperature will cause corrosion even faster.

    Yes, I read it.
    Dry air in Delhi is second only to Sudan. Deserts.
    The column itself contains 0,11 - 0,18% phosphorus.
    ".. Modern weather-resistant steels (for example, steel 10KhNDP) have their own characteristics due to the high content of phosphorus in them. In the joint interaction of copper and phosphorus, as well as chromium with oxygen, carbon dioxide and water vapor, hardly soluble compounds are formed, which are part of the oxide This film protects metal well. The corrosion rate of structures under such protection under normal conditions is about 0,3 mm per 100 years [11].
    Such steels under the Corten brand were invented in the United States in the 1930s [12] and contained up to 0,15% phosphorus. In the Delhi column it is 0,11-0,18%. "
    She is not the only one - "... A similar column of even larger dimensions, made in the XNUMXrd century, rises in the Indian city of Dhar."
    1. tanit
      tanit 6 November 2015 19: 38
      +2
      I have always admired the dating of "sacred and hidden" metal (and other) items. The methods of modern archeology and the finds made by it are completely denied. For - Everything is fake !!!. laughing And when you wonder what this particular theirs (well, archaic, so archaic-not theirs) "sacred" artifact is confirmed? Answer - You are All Lying !!! (hmm, but, in fact, it happens, you only have time to ask, where else is there to lie, then have time laughing) Modern Science Hides Everything (without comment) !!! Modern Power Hides Everything (without comment) !!! Well, finally, Read (what exactly to read - depends on the particular adherents of a particular sacred laughing )
    2. Aljavad
      Aljavad 7 November 2015 22: 10
      0
      She is not the only one - "... A similar column of even larger dimensions, made in the XNUMXrd century, rises in the Indian city of Dhar."

      Bravo! Many summer google!
  • tanit
    tanit 6 November 2015 22: 17
    +2
    By the way .. About what is repeated. Or that everyone came up with us ...
    There is such a collective concept - "Australian aborigines". You will all laugh, but the beginning of the battle for them never differed from the present. They threw themselves at each other as best they could.
    And at this stage the differences began. Someone took flying shells to shields. Someone on hand in the hands of spears and clubs (and who will take a chance now). Someone just dodged (from everything flying). Some had bows. Some had slings. Some limited themselves to boomerangs. All threw spears.
    What am I doing. The most ancient continent with the most ancient human contingent. And all over again, just like now. Remote strike against missile defense system wink
    But they didn’t think of any copper or bronze or iron armor ... Wild people, right?
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 6 November 2015 23: 25
    0
    Just came back. Good evening. Well, I think that Vyacheslav Olegovich Shpakovsky has many good and different habits. Do not be lazy, be hardworking, constantly think about something new, make plans and implement them, and also help other people in implementing their projects. I would like to read all the previous publications of Vyacheslav, but with this, unfortunately, I have a break now. Every day, less time. Regards.
    1. tanit
      tanit 7 November 2015 06: 40
      0
      Apparently ... Not how he (V.O.SH.) Has not changed laughing
      But, reading his old articles about tanks - do not jerk. hi
  • tanit
    tanit 7 November 2015 07: 00
    +1
    About articles (oh, we don’t have enough to throw in a paper edition recourse) Vyacheslav Olegovich earlier would have written in a short annotation- "For senior school age."
    So what's wrong with that? "Senior school" - he is up to the freaks of Chudinov, and to the Hyperboreans dash of hyperboloids, (probably Garin ( laughing), as well as to Veles hairs - sooner or later comes. Not for everyone, but for some. smile
    PS or PS But, about aluminum tanks, - especially in Penza, with its art school (taking place then) - the fate of a brave one. laughing
    Yes, V.O.S. -n’t sound right. Let’s say something excellent in sound, but short in capacity? - Yes, and come up with?
    "caliber" - without keyboard re-layout?
    1. kalibr
      7 November 2015 08: 39
      +1
      Vadim! One Japanese (full name does not matter) wrote a book about ninjas, where they ride a fire-breathing cow, fly gliders, descend from the mountains on wheeled tanks and go on water contrary to Archimedes' law. And everything went! They began to reprint, they forgot about the law - JAPAN. And here is just an aluminum tank ... In my opinion, a very moderate level of fantasy!
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 7 November 2015 22: 14
        0
        And here is just an aluminum tank ...


        One shot was written about an aluminum engine!
      2. tanit
        tanit 18 November 2015 18: 17
        0
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, so I am without any malice and (almost, well, sinful) all maliciousness soldier
  • Riv
    Riv 7 November 2015 09: 03
    +3
    Isn’t it time for me to confirm the reputation of a person poisoned by technical education? :)

    The starting picture is certainly impressive. Did you go on the Black Sea beach on a summer afternoon? Barefoot, how are these uncles? Well yes, it's hot. And in the Mediterranean the sun is shining brighter and the sand will be hotter ... Well, okay, uncles are tempered. Today we are not talking about that. Today we are talking about something else.

    In the background is a chariot. Well, it costs itself - and okay. Passengers enjoy the scenery. The problem is that with such a chariot ... you can’t shoot. You cannot throw spears either. Estimate yourself in the passenger seat. You have a bow in your left hand, you pull it, turn left ... Bummer! There is a charioteer. For dagger fire you have only a sector open from 10 to 11 hours. At 12 o’clock it’s already a horse, you have to shoot with a canopy, accuracy will suffer. To shell targets on the right, you will need to take a bow in your right hand. With a spear the same. Back generally beat uncomfortable with any hand. Speed ​​addition works against you.
    In general, we have a chariot for the left-hander. However, lefties are usually in the minority. If the chariot acts on the field not alone, hit-and-run, but as part of a unit, then the left-hander will not be able to participate in the general "carousel" that spins clockwise.
    In general, the shooter should be to the left of the driver and nothing else.

    Now let's look at the fighters. Hefty men under forty. At that time - pensioners. Odyssey was plowed into the war when he was still twenty. Well, okay, for example, let’s say it’s the fight between the elderly and the fighters that we specially selected. This does not care about the hot sand and thorns under bare feet. He can push tanks with one finger. And so the one with the spear jumps ... Stop! Of course, you can jump heroically, but the classic technique of working with a short weapon versus a long one is precisely to converge shield into shield. Then the short sword will have an advantage over the spear. That is, the fighter on the right is clearly looking for death.
    Actually, the fighter on the left is also looking for her. But how else to understand that he gave the initiative to the spearman? On the contrary, he should actively maneuver, strive to reach the distance of an injection. But he apparently lays bricks in his armored pampers ... Such is the battle of suicides. Maybe it’s easier for them to stab themselves?

    Well, one more nuance in the end. A spear with a shield is good only in formation, when the same shields are on the left and right. And in a one-on-one battle, the spearman only gets in the way. Remember in "Game of Thrones" at God's judgment, the duel of a spearman with a swordsman is described? The description is historically accurate. Neither armor, nor a shield, nor animal power saves, if they do not allow a strike to be at a distance. Musashi also considered the spearman the most uncomfortable opponent for himself and spent a lot of time developing techniques against the spear. So in the duel depicted, the warrior on the right would have thrown the shield and took the spear with both hands. Or, more likely, he would have thrown a spear, trying to leave the enemy without a shield.

    So, what am I doing? All these reconstructions are exactly the same picture. The artist sees it that way. By and large, historicity only hinders him. It is more important that it is beautiful. The fact that a person does not paint a picture, but dresses up a mannequin in armor, does not change anything. "He sees so." Therefore, often include your own brains, and do not rely on the opinions of professors-shamans.
    1. Riv
      Riv 7 November 2015 09: 12
      0
      Now minus and spit napalm. And a little later I will go through the rest of the heroic reenactors. They are all there in brutal poses of course, but I will find something to dig into.
      1. kalibr
        7 November 2015 10: 42
        +1
        No, why minus? You write everything correctly except one. Walking barefoot is a matter of habit. Primitive people walked and nothing. The skin is rough and everything is fine. And so - yes, the remarks are correct. But the historical illustration is "a little game". That is, the artist needs to show the typical to the maximum. In reality, this maximum could be significantly different from ... the minimum and the real situation. Here you are absolutely right. By the way, the British, in their comments to the books of Osprey and the drawings of the same Angus McBride, repeatedly pointed to certain shortcomings. I also wrote about this at one time when I saw him Svyatoslav, completely unlike the Lancer statuette and the description in the annals ... So it's very good that you are looking at everything so meticulously!
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 7 November 2015 22: 33
        +1
        And a little later I will go through the rest of the heroic reenactors. They are all there in brutal poses of course, but I will find something to dig into.


        The main trouble of both the reenactors and their critics is their common sense. For their common sense is a child of their life experience. And their life experience is modern. What would the same Ojissey look like if it weren’t easy for us, here? It's ridiculous. We look in the same technical conditions. And no erudition will save.

        "I am the son of a candidate of sciences and I will not allow an illiterate old woman to eat us!" This only works in a fairy tale.
    2. Olezhek
      Olezhek 7 November 2015 13: 47
      +2
      I. Think about yourself in the passenger seat. You have a bow in your left hand, you stretch it, turn to the left ... Bummer! There is a driver there. For dagger shelling, you only have a sector from 10 to 11 hours.


      In general, the spravo guy tightly squeezes a spear in his right hand.
      Next - the tactics of using chariots did not always imply a battle with chariots.
      The fighter reached the place, jumped off, threw a couple of DART, jumped back and was like that ...
      By the way on the chariot could be stock darts.
    3. Olezhek
      Olezhek 7 November 2015 14: 09
      +2
      Now look at the conquerors. Hefty men under forty years. For those times - pensioners. Odyssey to the war was plowed when he was not yet twenty. Well, okay, let's say it was just the fight between the elderly and the fighters who picked up a special one
      about.

      Hmm, but why did you think that they were forty?

      And that means that with a spear, it jumps ... Stop! Of course you can heroically jump, but


      He clings like a finger to a huge shield, which is useless one-on-one in a battle.


      The classic technique of working with short weapons against a dlinnny one is precisely to form a shield into a shield. Then a short sword will have an advantage over a spear. That is, the fighter on the right is clearly looking for death.


      Alas! he is not looking for happiness
      And not from happiness runs!

      I don’t know what he might be looking for, but as long as he stands in front of him .. Clinging with his fingers for the enormous shield to which he is tied with a strap slung over his neck ..
      Worthy rival!


      Actually, the fighter on the left is also looking for her. How else to understand that he gave the initiative to the lancer? He, on the contrary, should actively maneuver, strive to go the distance of the injection.


      The second person with undisguised interest looks at the whole show ... (because of its size - more reasonable sizes)

      A spear with a shield is good exclusively in the ranks, when left and right are the same shields. And in one-on-one combat, the spear bothers only.


      In general, the Greek classics of the era before Pericles, Pericles, and further - the shield and the FIRE
      Once again, the main thing is a shield and a spear.
      Quite a good pair.
      The shield and the sword - it is rather to the Romans ...
    4. marline
      marline 7 November 2015 19: 18
      +1
      Quote: Riv
      Isn’t it time for me to confirm the reputation of a person poisoned by technical education? :)

      Already useless, the label is pasted seriously and for a long time, and there is nothing to be proud of ... laughing with we understand your problems, dearest Riv ...
      Quote: Riv
      The starting picture is certainly impressive. Did you go on the Black Sea beach on a summer afternoon? Barefoot, how are these uncles? Well yes, it's hot.

      On the Black Sea - it’s not so hot as it hurts pebbles ... Here in the Caspian Sea, yes there, there is sand, there it is hot ...

      Further, I will not quote, there everything is absolutely right for you, for which you plus ...
      But there is one small point, such pictures are usually drawn, not in order to absolutely accurately convey any historical moment, but to show how it could be, to show how the people of that era could look and what they were armed with ...
      Here, as an example, Vasnetsov's painting "Heroes" was in my school history textbook, as an illustration in the paragraph dedicated to the 9-10th centuries. Rus is absolutely not historical, but it illustrates well and gives an idea of ​​the armament of Russian soldiers in the Middle Ages. (By the way, since you like to take pictures: what's the problem?)
    5. Aljavad
      Aljavad 7 November 2015 22: 25
      +1
      Did you go on the Black Sea beach on a summer afternoon? Barefoot, how are these uncles? Well yes, it's hot. And in the Mediterranean the sun shines brighter and the sand will be hotter ...

      In Australia - it's much warmer. But the natives didn’t come up with shoes.

      The problem is that with such a chariot ... you can’t shoot.

      Achaeans did not shoot from chariots! They went on these!

      Back generally beat uncomfortable with any hand. Speed ​​addition works against you.

      Google about the "Scythian shot"!
      That is, the fighter on the right is clearly looking for death.
      Actually, the fighter on the left is also looking for her.


      They do not fight! They are posing! To show you archaeological finds IN DYNAMICS.
      1. brn521
        brn521 9 November 2015 14: 01
        0
        Quote: Aljavad
        Achaeans did not shoot from chariots! They went on these!

        Well, yes, they didn’t seem to shoot. The Egyptians fired. The Cretans fired. But the Achaeans for some reason were not seen in this. Odysseus won the one that left his best bow at home. But to ride on the provided sample is also not very. Normal chariots of a similar format had a kind of railing in front, you could hold on to them and fasten the reins, But on the one in the illustration there is nothing like that. As for fighting or transportation, the same Homer has both options.
    6. brn521
      brn521 9 November 2015 13: 28
      0
      Quote: Riv
      Did you go on the Black Sea beach on a summer afternoon?

      So they didn’t take off their shoes yesterday. And the rationale I have already proposed. Leather shoes do not tolerate salty shoes. Ships without decks, so at the bottom constantly sea water splashes.
      Quote: Riv
      You cannot throw spears either.

      Why bullshit? For throwing a spear, a man is just fine standing on a chariot if he throws with his right hand.
      Quote: Riv
      You have a bow in your left hand, you pull it, turn left ... Bummer!

      Why left? There is a system of enemy infantry. The task of the chariot with the archer is to go along this formation, conducting continuous shelling.
      Quote: Riv
      The artist sees so.

      An artist may be quite sane, but they demanded that he depict a duel using pavaz instead of shields. So the poor fellow had to get out. A strange picture, I do not argue.
  • Olezhek
    Olezhek 7 November 2015 15: 06
    +1
    Thanks for the photo of the high collar armor !!
  • kumaxa
    kumaxa 8 November 2015 08: 10
    0
    I will not enter into debate! Just ATP to the author for the continuation of the cycle!
  • owl
    owl 11 November 2015 19: 02
    0
    Thank you very much for the series of articles. Very interesting, and most importantly in one place)
    Its five cents.

    [quote] A spear with a shield is good exclusively in the ranks, when the left and right shields are the same. And in battle, one on one shield spearman only interferes. [/ Quote]

    In general, the Greek classics of the era before Pericles, Pericles, and further - the shield and the FIRE
    Once again, the main thing is a shield and a spear.
    Quite a good pair.
    A shield and a sword are more likely to the Romans ... [/ quote]

    In fact, the archaic period is characterized by the image of a warrior armed with a shield (hoplon, dipilonian or variants) and two spears. And hoplite (phalangitis), in the late archaic and classical period, is depicted with one spear. This is the question of the existence of the phalanx, at least in our understanding, at that time.
    This type of armor (taking into account its practical use) perplexes our idea of ​​the way of life and war in that period.
  • Klim2011
    Klim2011 14 November 2015 20: 54
    0
    Respect to the author for a series of articles. I went on in for half an hour, as a result I read all the articles of the author and comments on them.