Due to C-400, China can improve its own air defense systems

Domestic anti-aircraft missile system (ZRS) C-400 can help China to bring to mind their promising developments that will be able to compete with the American ZRS. This information is being actively discussed today in the Chinese blogosphere. Information about the plans for the delivery of the Chinese People's Republic of China to the Russian C-400 air defense system was officially announced on 13 on April 2015 by Anatoly Isaykin, the general director of Rosoboronexport. He confirmed to reporters that China had become the first foreign buyer of the Triumph C-400. At the same time, in November 2014, representatives of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation denied the fact of the transaction.


ZRMS C-400 “Triumph” was adopted by the Russian army 28 on April 2007, and already on 6 in August of the same year, the first division, armed with this air defense system, took up combat duty in the Moscow region in the city of Elektrostal. In the West, the complex was defined as SA-21 (Growler, literally "Growler"). According to information from open sources, 8 regiments (2015 division, one regiment consisting of three divisions) with 10 launchers are already deployed in Russia on 21 September 168 of the year. The plans of the Ministry of Defense of Russia to purchase up to 2020, 56, C-400 divisions. According to a study that was published by the Australian analytical center Air February Australia in February 2009, C-400 has no analogues in the world and significantly surpasses the well-known American Patriot air defense systems.

October 27 2015, Anatoly Isaikin told reporters that Rosoboronexport is going to put the People's Republic of China on the Triumph C-400 anti-aircraft missile systems within the terms specified by the contract. At the same time, the head of Rosoboronexport did not specify when exactly this contract will be implemented, refraining from explaining any details of this transaction. It is worth noting that at present it is not even known the exact number of complexes acquired by China. The media featured information on 4-x or 6-ti divisional kits. The composition of the divisions is also unknown. Whether it will correspond to the Russian standard structure (8 PU in the division) or will be different, we will probably not find out soon.



At the same time, not everyone in Russia perceives this deal with optimism. On the one hand, the sale of modern, world-wide unparalleled missiles to China is a very good opportunity to consolidate the strategic nature of the relationship between our two countries. This becomes especially relevant in the light of recent events and a shift in the vector of Russia's foreign policy to the east. The so-called "eastern reversal" that occurs at the time of rather tense relations with the countries of the West. Yes, and two billion dollars, namely this amount of the transaction was announced earlier, will not be superfluous money for sitting on a strict diet of the Russian budget. However, all these positive aspects can be blocked by the fact that the Chinese military-industrial complex in the past few decades has managed to establish itself as a very skillful plagiarist in the field of military-technical cooperation (MTC).

The Internet resource Sputnik International News just recently published a material stating that in the near future C-400 systems purchased from Russia will be successfully replicated and copied under the guise of products of the military-industrial complex of China. In particular, opinions were cited that the technologies used in the Triumph complex will be thoroughly studied with a view to their further use in the three promising developments of Chinese air defense and missile defense systems. We are talking about the development of HQ-29, HQ-26 and HQ-19 systems (in Russian “Huntsi” is translated as “Red flag”). It is worth noting that earlier China had already widely used the technologies of the C-300 complexes acquired from Russia when creating its own HQ-9 air defense system, which today is actively promoting for export.

It is worth noting that China is really very actively working on modern long-range air defense systems for new generations, which include HQ-29, HQ-26 and HQ-19. It is reported that HQ-29 will have a missile similar to the American-made MIM-104F tactical anti-missile system PAC-3. Allegedly, in the nose of an anti-aircraft guided missile of this complex, more than 100 mini-engines are located, which are used to correct the missile’s flight and ensure its direct hit at a ballistic target. There is information that flight tests of these missiles have already been carried out. HQ-26 uses missiles created on the basis of the missile system of the HQ-9 complex, which will be equivalent to the American SM-3 SAMs. They will get more powerful starting accelerators and should go into service with combat ships of the naval forces of China. The third complex HQ-19 is a response to the American anti-missile complex THAAD, it also possesses the HQ-9B index (in contrast to the anti-aircraft variant HQ-9A). Perhaps all three systems are already being tested. At the same time, it is possible that the C-400 air defense systems acquired from Russia will make their immodest technological contribution to the process of bringing to the mind and modernization of the listed Chinese promising anti-missile systems. Thus, Russia is taking a risk, after earning two billion dollars, it will be possible to get a serious competitor in the international arms market. At the same time, the lost profit can cut off the income from the sale of C-400 to China.



Alexander Khramchikhin, deputy director of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis, commented on the possible consequences of this deal. According to him, the Chinese can really copy everything they get to. It is rather difficult to judge how technically perfect their analogs are, since such information is confidential, it is impossible to verify these data. Therefore, all HQ-29 test reports with a MIM-104F-like rocket and having 100 mini-engines in the nose are difficult to both confirm and deny. The Chinese themselves could reliably tell about this, since, besides them, no one has access to the tests of such a technique, but for obvious reasons they remain silent.

At the same time, the fact that the Chinese military industrial complex is able to copy the SM-3 SAMs does not mean at all that they have an analogue of the AEgis control information system (combat information and control system). The similar system created on the basis of the French system Thomson-CSF TAVITA, China has. But it’s very difficult to judge how their PIUS and radar are similar to American ones and are comparable to them, so the presence or absence of the Celestial own Aegis system is rather a rhetorical question.

Returning to C-400, Alexander Khramchikhin noted that it was not worth China to deliver C-400 air defense systems to China. According to the expert, China should be on the first place in the black list of potential buyers of military equipment, but in Russia they decided to do the opposite. According to the expert, China should not sell at all weapon. And not only and not so much because it is our competitor in the global arms market, but because China is one of the main potential opponents of Russia, which consistently and systematically engages in strengthening its own armed forces. In this aspect, Khramchikhin’s opinion differs from the official rhetoric of the Russian authorities, who want to see their strategic partner in China.

At the same time, directly on the market of air defense systems and missile defense systems, China and without selling the latest Russian C-400 system to it can compete with Russia. For example, the People's Republic of China recently won a tender to supply Turkey with its own HQ-9 air defense systems, while Russia offered time-tested C-300. Commenting on this deal, Khramchikhin said that if Turkey chose Chinese HQ-9, this does not mean that this system is superior to the Russian C-300 complex in terms of price-quality ratio. Hinting that there is still such a criterion as “price rollback”, and the East, as is known, is a delicate matter.



Another expert who gave comments to the Free Press, reserve colonel, member of the expert council of the chairman of the Military Industrial Commission under the Russian government, Viktor Murakhovsky, noted that the analogy between C-400 and the latest Chinese systems is rather relative, since these are different systems. Differences both in the field of application and in their capabilities, as well as in their intended purpose. If we talk about analogues of SM-3 missiles, then such a rocket is part of the ship's missile defense system, which is designed to work at high altitudes (up to near space). HQ-26 is not able to solve such tasks, most likely it is something between a Patriot PAC-3 air defense system and a missile defense system of the THAAD direct action theater. All reports that China seeks to create for the HQ-26 an analogue of the SM-3 missiles with kinetic striking elements are expert assumptions or just speculation. Officially, Beijing did not declare such characteristics. In comparison with the defense complex of Russia, the Chinese defense industry is a very closed area.

The United States and Russia today sell more weapons than China, and behave more openly when disclosing the tactical and technical parameters of their weapons. Despite this, the PRC is now ranked third in the world in arms sales. Commenting on the contract with Turkey for the supply of missile defense systems, Viktor Murakhovsky noted that, in fact, China supplied Ankara with copies of the Russian C-XNUMPPMU-300 and PMU-1, winning this tender through price dumping. According to him, on a number of characteristics, HQ-2 is inferior to C-XNUMPPMU-9, not to mention the more modern C-300 system. Simply, Russia was not ready to work with Turkey under the same conditions as China, which is ready to go on price dumping in order to enter the market. It is also assumed that Turkish-made chassis will be used in the complexes supplied by Ankara, and in the future Turkish defense companies will be able to take part in the production of this complex.

On the issue of selling C-400 to China, Viktor Murakhovsky is of the opinion, diametrically opposed to the opinion of Alexander Khramchikhin. According to him, such a deal is necessary in order to restore the normal volume of military-technical cooperation between the countries. It should be understood that after the 2017, in the Russian Federation, the systems of the new generation C-500 should appear in service. For example, the C-400 uses the same rockets as the complexes of the previous generation. A new "long-range" rocket on 400 kilometers should appear just now. That is, the C-500 SAMs will have a completely new missile equipment, as well as new means of target designation and intelligence.

Due to C-400, China can improve its own air defense systems


At the same time, the expert assesses the capabilities of China’s missile defense very highly, but so far China cannot compete with Russia and the USA. Rather, it is a competitor only in the arms market. Moreover, with the fact that China is our opponent, Murakhovsky strongly disagrees. According to him, the direction of China's military construction indicates that the main focus is on development fleet и aviation. In general, it is directed to the coastal and distant sea zones in the southeast side of the Asia-Pacific region. It is obvious that China is preparing to defend its disputed islands from Japan, while ensuring freedom and safety of navigation, as well as providing markets in the Asia-Pacific region with serious cover from its naval forces.

But the defense of the mainland in Beijing is also not forgotten. Many believe that the Russian C-400 complexes are planned to be deployed around the Chinese capital to protect it. According to Viktor Murakhovsky, China at this stage of development does not have an integrated missile defense system. At the same time, Beijing possesses prototypes and ready-made developments, with the help of which it seeks to build missile defense in the positional areas of its intercontinental ballistic missiles in order to maintain its potential for retaliation in the event of aggression. And the Russian C-400 system can also be used for this purpose. China is well aware and aware of the capabilities of this Russian complex. In the sense that its capabilities far exceed all that is available to the PRC at the given moment of time.

Information sources:
http://svpressa.ru/war21/article/118942
http://ria.ru/economy/20151027/1308841870.html
http://nevskii-bastion.ru/hq-19-china
http://rbase.new-factoria.ru
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  1. Linkor9s21 29 October 2015 06: 20 New
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    They are already tired of stealing our technology! how long to! they wouldn’t sell anything at all, they still went with slingshots.
    1. USSR 1971 29 October 2015 07: 03 New
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      Firstly, the export version has different characteristics from the Russian one (remember cruise missiles from the Caspian?)
      Secondly, even for three hundred in so many years no one has completely successfully copied completely, although with the collapse of the Union there were many opportunities.
      Factories, people, designers, cooperation, production traditions, if you want, everything is here in Russia.
      The main thing is not to lose it.
      Painting in a beautiful blue-blue pixel is certainly cool, but the main thing is the performance characteristics and combat capabilities.
      1. denisey 29 October 2015 08: 55 New
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        Quote: USSR 1971
        USSR 1971 SU Today, 07: 03 ↑ New

        Firstly, the export version has different characteristics from the Russian one (remember cruise missiles from the Caspian?)
        I completely agree. As for the missiles, I’ll say that in one factory, when exporting missiles were sold, a hole was made in a certain place and the missile lost about 30-40% in the range. And since the Chinese are good at copying, in this case, too, I think they will not achieve the performance of our Triumph air defense system.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Mera joota 29 October 2015 09: 29 New
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        Quote: USSR 1971
        Firstly, the export version has different characteristics from the Russian

        Yeah, the Chinese are such boobies that they are ready to pay for the purchase of air defense systems with cut TTX. They needed the originals, when they were selling the S-300PMU, they demanded that preliminary tests be carried out for compliance with the declared characteristics, as the participant described, they had to create such a targeted environment that they themselves had not experienced before and there were fears that the complex could not cope, but everything turned out well that surprised our developers, they themselves did not expect such efficiency.
        So do not hope.
        1. denisey 29 October 2015 10: 57 New
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          1. It’s one thing to show on tests and to a friend which missiles to deliver.
          2. The missiles were nevertheless delivered with deteriorated characteristics, which means they were not finished. And the S-400 will be more complicated.
          3. Regarding the deterioration of the characteristics of the rocket, I just voiced the fact that our kulibins will do this time, I think we won’t know for a long time wink
        2. VP
          VP 29 October 2015 20: 24 New
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          For export, they immediately declare deteriorated performance characteristics, the Chinese are the ones who check them.
          This is not a muhlezh or a hoax, it is a standard of world practice.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. samoletil18 29 October 2015 13: 14 New
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      Quote: Linkor9s21
      They’ve steamed already
      This is not an iPhone, you need to copy more than one year. Yes, while ours will still be delivered in an export version! I don’t see any reason to refuse the deal, even if our military-industrial complex is in good shape to compete with China on our own developments.
    4. AAV
      AAV 29 October 2015 15: 33 New
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      Let's be honest. If possible, everyone copies everything, if there is something and this opportunity is provided.
      Let us recall the history of the creation in the USSR by the method of "reverse engineering" of the first strategic bomber TU-4. It was copied down to the smallest detail with the American B-29, which remained in the union after the Second World War.
      1. Lapkonium 29 October 2015 20: 12 New
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        and what did the states copy from the USSR?
        1. wk
          wk 30 October 2015 02: 17 New
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          Quote: Lapkonium
          and what did the states copy from the USSR?

          there was a story with the abduction of MIG 25 unique at that time .... it was not completely copied but many solutions were used on the American analogue ... too lazy to google, but it was like that!
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. wk
        wk 30 October 2015 02: 13 New
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        Quote: AAV
        It was copied down to the smallest detail with the American B-29, which remained in the union after the Second World War.

        in the USSR, the USA never delivered B29 .... there was a whole operation to abduct a single copy (google) .... to Tupolev’s phrase “we will do our best” to Stalin there was an answer “absolutely no need” ... copied everything down to the ashtray in the cockpit, even according to the Soviet charter, pilots were forbidden to smoke ..... for the work done Tupolev was given the Stalin Prize and it still seems to be an order .... narrow-minded people joked that they were awarded for translating inches to millimeters .... in fact, a lot of work was done for the development of new materials and technologies, which significantly increased the overall level of Soviet aircraft construction!
  2. Bongo 29 October 2015 06: 32 New
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    It must be understood that after the 2017 year in the Russian Federation, new-generation C-500 systems should appear in service. For example, the C-400 uses the same missiles as in the complexes of the previous generation. A new "long-range" missile at 400 kilometers should appear only now. That is, the S-500 air defense system will have completely new missile equipment, as well as new means of target designation and reconnaissance.

    The priority purpose of the S-500 air defense system is not supposed to be the defeat of aerodynamic targets, but the fight against targets in near space and missile defense. To combat tactical aircraft and aircraft of the Kyrgyz Republic its SD is too expensive, although of course you can hammer nails with a microscope. no

    In any case, the C-400 and the promising C-500 are quite expensive, albeit very long-range systems (with new SDs). The massive air defense system that will replace the C-300P family should be the C-350, with greater fire performance.
    1. Falcon 29 October 2015 09: 33 New
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      Quote: Bongo
      The massive air defense system that will replace the C-300P family should be the C-350, with greater fire performance.


      The missile defense component of C-350 raises big questions.
      1. Bongo 29 October 2015 09: 37 New
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        Quote: Falcon
        The missile defense component of C-350 raises big questions.

        And what is the anti-missile component (capabilities) of the S-300PS anti-aircraft missile system which actually should replace the S-350? For missile defense on TVDs, the S-300В family of missiles with completely different missiles is intended. The S-350 air defense system was primarily created to combat the Kyrgyz Republic and TA aircraft.
        1. Falcon 29 October 2015 09: 45 New
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          Quote: Bongo
          And what is the anti-missile component (capabilities) of the S-300PS anti-aircraft missile system which actually should replace the S-350?


          48n6 has greater speed and the ability to intercept faster targets. What is essential for tactical missile defense.

          Quote: Bongo
          The S-350 air defense system was primarily created to combat the Kyrgyz Republic and TA aircraft.


          Of course, but the speed of the C-350 missiles is inferior to the 48n6 - they are lower in some capabilities (not to mention the range). At the same time, C-350 certainly has its advantages
          1. Bongo 29 October 2015 09: 53 New
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            Quote: Falcon
            48n6 has greater speed and the ability to intercept faster targets. What is essential for tactical missile defense.

            The 48n6 missile is part of the air defense system C-300PS ? what
            Quote: Falcon
            Of course, but the speed of the C-350 missiles is inferior to the 48n6 - they are lower in some capabilities (not to mention the range). At the same time, C-350 certainly has its advantages

            I repeat, C-350 - first intended for hitting aerodynamic targets . Its advantages are: lower cost of hardware and SAM in comparison with C-400 and greater fire performance. The price for this is a lower firing range compared to the C-400. However, regarding C-400, one should not be deceived either. Firing at the maximum range of SAM missiles S-400 is possible only high-altitude and very large targets. Such as AWACS aircraft, strategic bombers, tankers, etc.
            1. Falcon 29 October 2015 10: 09 New
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              Quote: Bongo
              The 48n6 missile is part of the S-300PS air defense system


              No, but as I understand it, c-350 should replace c-300pm.

              Quote: Bongo
              I repeat C-350 - this is the first intended for hitting aerodynamic targets.


              I understand perfectly. But the possibility of pro is never ruled out.

              Quote: Bongo
              For missile defense on TVDs, the S-300В family of missiles with completely different missiles is intended.


              I never could figure out what is special about s-300в. Can you tell me?
              If we compare it with the 300-pmu2 (48н6 and 9м83), we get:
              The range for aerodynamic and ballistic targets is the same, the height is about the same, the warhead weight of the 9m83 is even slightly less, the speed of the missiles is the same.
              Only the mass 9m83 is much larger. So what is the advantage as a pro?
              1. Bongo 29 October 2015 10: 23 New
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                Quote: Falcon
                No, but as I understand it, c-350 should replace c-300pm.

                No, not really. Almost all C-300ПМ have been finalized to the option С-300ПМ2. Replaced are the heavily worn С-300ПС which have about 50% of air-breathing agent.
                Quote: Falcon
                I understand perfectly. But the possibility of pro is never ruled out.

                Of course you can shoot, but the probability of defeat ...

                Quote: Falcon
                I never could figure out what is special about s-300в. Can you tell me?

                I do not want to go into long explanations. Some time ago, I was preparing a series of publications "Development and the role of air defense systems in the air defense system." Read, in this part about C-300В it is said: http://topwar.ru/74268-razvitie-i-rol-zrk-v-sisteme-pvo-chast-4-ya.html
                Right in the article there is still an active link to a more similar publication. hi
                1. Falcon 29 October 2015 11: 48 New
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                  Quote: Bongo
                  I do not want to go into long explanations. Some time ago, I was preparing a series of publications "Development and the role of air defense systems in the air defense system." Read, in this part about C-300В it is said: http://topwar.ru/74268-razvitie-i-rol-zrk-v-sisteme-pvo-chast-4-ya.html
                  Right in the article there is still an active link to a more similar publication.


                  I read your links. In principle, I am familiar with all the information. But there is no complete answer to my question.

                  By and large, C-300в had advantages as a missile defense only until the advent of the 48н6 missile request
                  1. Bongo 29 October 2015 14: 40 New
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                    Quote: Falcon
                    By and large, C-300в had advantages as a missile defense only until the advent of the 48н6 missile

                    The anti-missile defense system "Antey-2500", which is based on the C-300B, uses heavier 48M6M missiles than the 9Н82. They are “sharpened” specifically for missile defense missiles, the potential of the 48Н6 missiles, the first modifications of which appeared more than 20 years ago as part of the S-300ПМ air defense system, is much more modest. The 9M82M missiles have the ability to maneuver with large overloads, it has great thrust-weight ratio, and the warhead is more powerful.
            2. mvg
              mvg 29 October 2015 20: 44 New
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              The pay for this is a shorter range compared to the S-400. However, regarding the S-400, one should not deceive oneself either.
              I agree, "fill up" the F-16 at a range of 400 km, the S-400 does not work. It’s about, like a telegraph pole, will chase after a fighter .. But for normal Boeings and Airbus, that’s it ... repeat
              Selling the S-400 is more of a political move. Because the little yellow ones in the UN Security Council either vote "for us" or else "abstain", plus real money .. It's not like giving Ebipt a loan .. or Syria .. or Venezuela .. There aren’t so many buyers left in real money. Vietnam, India, China ...
              So it is NECESSARY to push in, we also will not make such billions on these billions ..
    2. remy 29 October 2015 11: 10 New
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      rather, S-350 air defense systems of divisional composition will be introduced to the already formed regiments of S-400 air defense systems

      S-400 SAM: 48H6- 400 km
      S-350 SAM: 9M96 SAM - 120 km
      SAM Pantsir-C1: SAM 57E6E - 20 km
      1. Falcon 29 October 2015 11: 41 New
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        Quote: remy
        S-400 SAM: 48H6- 400 km

        48n6 has a range of 250 km in the latest upgrade

        400 km is 40н6
        1. Bongo 29 October 2015 14: 41 New
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          Quote: Falcon
          48n6 has a range of 250 km in the latest upgrade

          400 km is 40н6

          Absolutely fair yes
  3. denssss 29 October 2015 07: 26 New
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    when do they promise to finish C-350?
    1. Bongo 29 October 2015 07: 38 New
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      Quote: denssss
      when do they promise to finish C-350?

      Almaz-Antey threatened to complete state tests of the S-350 Vityaz air defense system this year. If this is really so (which I really want to believe in), then at our pace it will take several more years to establish mass production and training calculations.
    2. Lenivets 29 October 2015 13: 09 New
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      They promise this year, so there is a chance that they will finish it next year. hi
      And as Bongo correctly said, more time is needed to set up the series (training will take place in parallel).
  4. Aleksandr21 29 October 2015 07: 41 New
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    Selling the S-400 to China is not worth it. I will not write about the reasons, this topic has already been dismantled and chewed a hundred times. I would like to note some points in the article “after 2017, new-generation S-500 complexes should appear in service in the Russian Federation” they will appear, but whether they will differ greatly from the same S-400 is a big question, i.e. The S-400 is made with a reserve for the future, and now there is a large-scale re-equipment and replacement of the S-300 with the S-400, will there be such a program to replace the S-400 with the S-500? It is doubtful that the budget will not pull every 10 years to change the air defense system in mass composition, if they introduce a couple of divisions to cover Moscow, and so the S-400 for the next 20-30 years will definitely be part of our armed forces. So the question arises, is it worth it to transfer one of our most advanced military products to an “ally”? Not only will China make a similar system and will offer it to everyone on the market, our technologies will also push China into the anti-aircraft missile industry and in 10-15 years we may already be in the role of catching up, and there are doubts about China’s bright feelings for us no matter how our media outlets “enlighten” the population, the reality is that China is “friends” with us so far, it’s not profitable how long this period will last, but it’s not worth arming a potential adversary. Who knows what will happen in 10-20 years ....
    1. Bongo 29 October 2015 07: 45 New
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      Quote: Aleksandr21
      Will there be such a program to replace C-400 with C-500? It is doubtful that the budget will not pull every 10 years to change mass air defense systems

      C-400 and C-500 are not not SAMs, but SAMs. Those. not a complex, but system. Replacement of C-400 with C-500 is not expected, as they have different tasks. Otherwise, I agree with you. hi
      1. Malkor 29 October 2015 19: 11 New
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        I think we are quietly creating our missile defense with c400 and c500 systems, evolution without revolution. Politically and economically, this has advantages. And for air defense there will be (and there are) other systems and subsystems.
        The Air Force was not in vain renamed into the Air Force.
    2. Beaver 29 October 2015 09: 54 New
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      Quote: Aleksandr21
      our technologies will push China into the anti-aircraft missile industry and in 10-15 years we may already be in the role of catching up

      I’ll try to calm you down. hi
      First, the reporter always goes behind.
      Secondly, who does not go forward, that lags behind.
      Let me explain: without developing technologies, without constantly improving our weapons systems, in any case, we will find ourselves in the role of “catching up”. sad
      And the Chinese, yes, hi-i-yitry "tovarischi". bully
  5. sa-ag 29 October 2015 07: 50 New
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    3D printer cover is already open :-)
  6. Aksakal_07 29 October 2015 08: 05 New
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    All the arguments expressed in the article, both for the deal and against it, are quite reasonable. The main problem, in my opinion, the USSR-Russia in international trade affairs has always been a bad merchant.
  7. Project 24 29 October 2015 09: 29 New
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    Yeah ... The Chinese probably think that the Russians are ready to give the last port for a stack of bucks. "Eastern U-turn" ... Now China will twirl us, as it wants, will buy up all the best cheaply. Well, and then, naturally, “treacherously” will be turned away in favor of more powerful and worthy partners. When we are no longer needed. And the Chinese are absolutely right. As someone once said, the state "has no friends, it has national interests."
    1. Mera joota 29 October 2015 09: 42 New
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      Quote: Project-24
      Now China will turn us around as it wants; it will buy all the best cheaply

      It’s hard to blame altruism for the Chinese. Well, the fact that they do not recognize friends in politics has long been known.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  8. Mera joota 29 October 2015 09: 40 New
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    In the S-400 Chinese, only the hardware of the complex may be of interest, for they are familiar with missiles (except 40N6). The Chinese are more interested in hit-to-kill technology, and here they don’t learn anything from us, they couldn’t implement it on the S-400, although there were loud statements earlier.
    so there will be no mass purchases as it was with the S-300PMU, purely for acquaintance and search for original ideas.
  9. chunga-changa 29 October 2015 10: 48 New
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    At the helm - vremyachiki.
  10. chinArmy 29 October 2015 11: 22 New
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    N-yes, apparently it became poor in the budget.
  11. antiexpert 29 October 2015 11: 57 New
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    so far, the Celestials could not repeat the project of the lunar rover that the USSR successfully created 40 years ago, so do not worry
  12. TIO1969 29 October 2015 12: 27 New
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    Oh, we do not learn even from our own experience. Of course, we’ll supply the S-400, the Chinese will disassemble the cog, everything that they can copy and implement into their systems. And they will be released to the market with their weapons, which will compete with our systems :( On forums and in the media we will cry and curse, and after 6-7 years - everything will happen again ... we will put them the S-500, and everything in a circle .. It is sad .. :(

    As for the tender in Turkey, to be honest, few believed that the Turks would take the Russian complex. They would not be allowed to do so by their "senior comrades" .. And even with the Chinese complex, nothing is still clear. The Turks do not bend for children ... Most likely they will not buy a system from the PRC.
  13. silver_roman 29 October 2015 18: 48 New
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    how am I enraged by these talk of "turning the RF east" !!!! No need to turn anywhere and turn to anyone. Unless to turn to your past, draw conclusions and build your future, regardless of east or west. Or minimize this dependency.
    The USSR was self-sufficient, such should be the Russian Federation. and for this it is necessary to clean out any liberal shit from your yard!
    2 billion for several divisions from the sale of s-400 are easily compensated by all sorts of basil and other scum, which billions are stolen.
  14. Colonellee 29 October 2015 20: 29 New
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    There is an article right there on the Chinese missile defense systems. Including the "stolen" analogue of the S-300. Allegedly, they began to develop it since the beginning of the 80s. And only when they received the S-90 at the beginning of the 300s, were they able to develop something (copy) and then it took them ten years to finalize (well, very leisurely guys in the east) and almost as much to adopt (read technology development) production, you can’t steal it in any way). And even after so many years of refinement, they only got the semblance of obsolete S-300 systems (generally inferior to the same modernized 300). What do you think, how long will it take them to “refine” the Chinese production of the S-400 complex? And I will not even talk about the S-500, or about competition in the arms market (in which, frankly speaking, no one is in the queue for S-300 systems, not to mention the 400s, respectively, the competition is still speculative). And the copies they often get are worse than the original, you just have to remember the Chinese “Kalash” falling apart in your hands or for example the Drying engine, which they not only stole, then bought, including all the documentation, and still could not reproduce for 20 years. I will only say that science and technology can only copy and do not create anything revolutionary new has no future. The USSR also often copied, but then created samples completely surpassing the original, be it the T-34 or the Royal P-7, moreover, created in record time and not in such hothouse conditions (working samples, documentation, a lot of money and 20-30 years). The Chinese will always be one step behind both Russia and the United States, because they do not create anything new. For 25 years after the collapse of the USSR, they could create a star engine based on the technological secrets stolen from him. The USSR took much less time and in more difficult conditions to not only catch up with the technological leader of those years - Germany, but also get ahead of it. They can dominate the economy, in the East they have always been considered traders, but to be geopolitical leaders - for this you need to have steel eggs - and for this they need to change their mentality - but then it will not be China ...
  15. mvg
    mvg 29 October 2015 21: 13 New
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    These "copywriters" copy 1 modern destroyer per year (with no 956 pr), with their (French) Aegis, and these are not our frigates - 1 pc at 6-7 years old. Yes, and without dvigla .. And quite modern aircraft J-10 (Lavi), J11B (Su-27, Su-30) they already have more than 300 .. Soon they will finish J-15 (Su-33) for the "Varyag" or how is his liao line? For some reason I’m sure that the J-31 and J-20 will be exported faster than the F-35 and T-50 (even in the Indian export version), I’m not talking about single deliveries of F-35 to Britons or the Dutch for “familiarization”. They have modern tanks of type 99A2, and in quantities larger than 400 T-90 in the Russian Armed Forces .. modern infantry fighting vehicles (APCs), their strategists (ICBMs) are not much inferior to those of Merikos and Russian .. There is a backlog in the nuclear submarines, but not critical .. There is its own "Glonass / JPEs", and the rover, in my opinion, is still crawling. In 2022 they plan to launch an orbital station. So the little yellow ones can not only copy, but also create .. But, of course, they don’t disdain plagiarism ...
    In vain you are so ... about them. By 2050, it will be the largest economy, with an awesome army, plus 2 billion goners.
    1. voyaka uh 1 November 2015 11: 42 New
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      I agree with you. The Chinese army (especially the fleet) is a nightmare for the CIA and
      American military analysts. Too fast the Chinese are rearming
      missile destroyers and them descend from the stocks, like hot cakes.
      And modern aircraft carriers are on the way.
  16. Gunther 30 October 2015 15: 02 New
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    Alexander Khramchikhin, Deputy Director of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis. According to him, the Chinese can really copy everything they get to.

    It’s not necessary to go far for an example:
    "..Turkey orders China to create its own air defense system. Rosoboronexport was among the other bidders, but lost. "
    Lost about 3,6 billion Pendoshkan rubles (12 sets of "HQ-9").
    And before that, in mid-1994, they sold three S-300PMU-1 divisions to the Chinese, we draw conclusions.
    "The development of the Turkish missile defense is being carried out with the assistance of China, which won a tender in 2013 to supply Turkey with medium and long-range anti-aircraft missile systems. It is interesting that these are Russian systems converted by enterprising Chinese. Military observer, retired colonel Viktor Litovkin confirmed to the NSN that "The HQ-9 air defense system that Turkey bought from China is nothing more than the Russian S-300 PMU-1 converted by Chinese specialists. It’s only worse." ©
    ... returning to the S-400, Alexander Khramchikhin noted that China was not worth delivering S-400 air defense systems. According to the expert, China should come first on the blacklist possible buyers of military equipment, but in Russia they decided to do the opposite. According to the expert, China should not sell any weapons at all. And not only and not so much because it is our competitor in the global arms market, but because China is one of the main potential opponents of Russia..

    Here neither diminish nor add.
    I totally agree.
  17. Psaking systems 30 October 2015 22: 06 New
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    Quote: Lapkonium
    and what did the states copy from the USSR?

    Well, for example, the States in the 90s bought from OKB them. A.S. Yakovleva VTOL Yak-141 technology, which ultimately helped them create the F-35B.
  18. magirus401 22 November 2015 17: 13 New
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    So that the Chinese can’t copy, then they don’t sell anything to anyone, otherwise they will buy and copy from others, it’s like they like everything that moves, and that they don’t move, move and love, the Chinese need to sell the first batch of new equipment more and more, that would be at least fat