Military Review

Processor sour cabbage

223
To create your own electronic component base you need at least money


The GLONASS system uses American Intel, which means that it is vulnerable in wartime. There is no guarantee that a special signal will not arrive on board the satellite at an hour from across the ocean. And our global positioning equipment and georeferencing blind. When will we overcome the dependence on the supply of electronic components from the West? What does that require?

The problem of import substitution is not as simple as it was recently even seemed to some state leaders who said that in two or three years Russia will get rid of imported components. Now it turns out that in five years it will be necessary to purchase, if not in the West, so in the East, up to 30 percent of ECB. All this is the result of underestimating the role of our own machine-tool industry and microelectronics, an erroneous message: we will buy everything for oil.

Military space is not for us

The failure in the production of automated special-purpose systems is particularly acute. The most important requirement for the development of such equipment is the use of the domestic electronic database and components. They are defined in annually published lists. The list of EKB-2014 includes components of two main categories: 5 acceptance (military military) and 9 acceptance (products for space).

Let us explain: in the West, microcircuits are divided into commercial, industrial, military, and space.

Commercial - the most massive. They are designed for home and office products, designed for temperatures from 0 to + 75 ° C.

Industrial and military are conventional microcircuits that withstand cooling and a little more heating (from -40 to + 125 ° С). They are usually in plastic cases.

Space - radiation-resistant microcircuits for space applications. They are enclosed in a metal-ceramic case, differ in design and great rigor of manufacturing technology.

For sale of military chips and especially space there are significant limitations - special permits are required. If they supply them to us, it is only for civil engineering. The accession of the country to the WTO did not help either. If, nevertheless, it is possible to agree on the purchase of microcircuits in the execution of space, the time of their manufacture, delivery can reach a year.

In Russia, chips are sold with 1 acceptance (the so-called Quality Control acceptance, when the plant itself tests the chips), 5 acceptance (that is, the customer, when used in military equipment, the military representative controls the tests) and 9 acceptance (only the most qualified staff).

In exceptional cases (in the absence of the necessary components and according to a separate decision), our IWT is allowed to use foreign-made ECB. This is a complex process, due to the fact that the decisions are examined in the 46 Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Russian Federation, are agreed in the instances and approved by the Deputy Minister of Defense. The relevant documents indicate the deadline for the transition to domestic components, mandatory certification, and special checks. Do not use products without lead solders and in plastic cases.

Processor sour cabbage


The cheapness of imported components compared to ours is explained by the fact that they are commercial, not military (military) execution. We use them in PVN not from a good life. Components of military execution can be ten times more expensive than commercial ones. But even at such a price they are absent in the Russian market.

“A number of components in the performance of military and space (tantalum and ceramic capacitors) have, in contrast to commercial ones, substantially large dimensions, which is due to reliability, reserve in terms of parameters,” explains Vladimir Narkhov, a representative of NIISSU JSC. “The presence of precious metals on the contacts of switching components, connectors, switches, etc. is obligatory, which also affects the price, not to mention the use of metal-ceramic shells and testing for radiation resistance.”

Abroad, in the military and civilian equipment, only solders with lead are used to obtain high performance. Russia, on the other hand, sells only components for commercial use, which are manufactured using lead-free technology (plumbum free). “Of course, it’s a disaster that we buy commercial equipment for military purposes,” says Narkhov. “Therefore, the quality of the equipment is obtained accordingly.”

Why are prices for domestic products high? One of the reasons - the lack of mass production, comparable to foreign. In Russia, practically no electronic equipment is being made for national economic use, household appliances, medical equipment, etc., on domestic components. And the market for such products is relatively small to expand mass production.

In addition, the supply of domestic appliances has to wait a long time, which is caused by small-scale production, the lack of working capital by the manufacturers. As a result, the deadline for order fulfillment is equal to the technological cycle. It is not surprising that consumers turn to Western manufacturers who can ship goods from the warehouse.

30 On April, the Ministry of Industry and Trade issued an order No. 662 on the development of the domestic radio-electronic industry up to 2025. Realization of this plan, I hope, will help eliminate Russia's lagging behind the world-class ECB, reduce the dependence of our military equipment on supplies from abroad. But it would be naive to believe that we will be able to quickly catch up and overtake, after all, they lagged for decades. One resolution does not solve the problem.

Take the largest factory of connectors "Elecon" (Kazan), currently overloaded with orders, which, it would seem, should please. But there, as many years ago, they reproduce the Ukrainian nomenclature of the ECB. Many products are outdated. Although even they are not enough in the domestic market. And development requires investment, updating of the machine park, retraining of personnel. Simply rivet consumer goods. And so, apparently, things are in many factories.

According to Narkhov, the Ministry of Industry and Trade issued an order in April, and even the money for the priority development of the ECB has not yet been allocated to anyone. Enterprises are forced to bow to Western suppliers or, as a senior Rostec official once said, to turn in connection with the sanctions to the East.

“Our collaborators are forced to use, for example, only imported ECB, and so far domestic components do not even intend to install,” admitted frankly at the Innovations Day of the Defense Ministry of Narhov.

From the top of "Elbrus"


Our country must take the path of unification, says a member of the scientific and technical council of the military-industrial complex, a representative of the Research Institute of Automatic Equipment named after Academician Semenikhin German Oganyan. You should also determine the total for all complex technical software that will move the situation off the ground. In the meantime, each chief designer adds his own resistor, a capacitor, and tries to bring the product to the market.

Many domestic components (passive resistors, capacitors, piezotechnics, connectors) are already of sufficiently high quality; by 90, the percent corresponds to imported ones. The problem is in microelectronics, where we have a huge hole. The thing is that our specialists and consumers do not even know about the components of Russian production produced in a small amount. There is still no official and accessible list of ECB produced in our country.

Import substitution in office operating systems and programs is also a costly pleasure. Solving this problem by releasing individual components will fail. It also requires a comprehensive solution, including for the import of automated control systems. The life cycle of our ACS is 15 – 20 years. Buying for them even cheap Intel is not an option. After five to six years, a new modification processor is required. Therefore, it is necessary to rely on the domestic ECB manufactured by some OPK plants.

There are domestic microprocessors (MP) of the Elbrus series ЕNNUMXК, a number of others made under license. However, it is not surprising if we recall that the Soviet experts stood at the origins of the Intel Pentium. The USSR at one time achieved significant success in computer technology. What are the Elbrus supercomputers, which were created at the Institute of Fine Mechanics and Computer Engineering (ITM & T) in 2 – 70's. The same name carries a series of microprocessors and systems manufactured on their basis and manufactured today by CJSC “MCST” (Moscow Center for SPARC-technologies).

The downside of the process is that full import substitution is impossible. It is important to produce what determines information security. And this - MP and other components, including resistors. But what software should be in this case?

According to Herman Ohanian, there is a need for a unified software environment for all levels of management, which consists of three levels. The first is the operating system. The second is system-wide software. The third is special software for automated control systems.

System-wide software includes features such as security, work management, resiliency failures, and video conferencing. All these modules must be in the same layer. That is, import substitution requires the introduction of a unified software environment.

No less acute is the problem of maintenance. In the USA, for example, it is customary to talk about the cost of joint ownership. If some system is implemented, then 30 percent of investment goes to its development, and 70 percent - to service during 15 – 20 years of operation. We need to automate these solutions, which will dramatically reduce maintenance staff, and thus reduce the cost of ownership.

As for the protection of information, it is often missing its hardware support. “We have such protection introduced into the operating system and is called Elbrus OS,” says Ohanian. “We usually trust our trading partners and allies.” But it was our system that allowed us to detect the so-called bookmarks in the Windows and Linux libraries. If we do not solve this problem at the all-Russian level, then it’s difficult to talk about information security. Then each chief designer will have to write their own software, which will not be combined with others. Moreover, the joint responsibility for the software used in the Armed Forces and the corresponding hardware platform are needed. Such an approach is incorporated in our documents. ”

Problems remain with the use of legacy software. To solve them, the Elbrus OS uses the so-called binary translation programs, which allow it to perform tasks developed on Windows and other Shirtrebovskih operating systems on a military system. In 2012, the military industrial complex held a meeting on the creation of a domestic hardware platform. However, the program lacks specific wording and terms. In addition, the model for the control system can not be common, because so far there is no single idea of ​​what to take as a basis.

“We have not monitored the operating systems adopted by the armed forces, and we are not fully aware of their compatibility level,” said Ohanian. - Not to mention the language of the algorithms. Many different languages ​​are used today: C, C ++, Java, C #, 1C. And yet in the domestic processor managed to solve this problem. In Elbrus, for example, you can automatically change the program and load four cores. With an Elbrus clock frequency of 300 MHz, we’ll get the performance of many of Intel’s favorite 1,5 GHz Intels. ”

What is the price of such a kit? A domestic server is now being produced with 12,5 teraflops performance on Elbrus, costing 500 thousand rubles. It’s a lot or a little to judge by specialists. But he is, there are no problems with spare parts. You do not need to purchase an insurance spare parts kit for 10 – 15 years, as it happens with imported equipment.

How to lose documents

The developer of domestic software from OAO NPO Angstrem announced that their OS can meet all requirements, including the Ministry of Defense, and be protected. After the company incorporated the ROSA group of companies into its membership, their operating systems are built for different architectures. Having our own developments allows us to conduct many projects in a single environment, quickly transferring resources, to maintain their relevance. Distribution OS "ROSA" includes a huge package base. But for this OS, alas, a lot is still being borrowed. “We cannot create everything ourselves,” admitted the representative of the NGO Angstrom. - Although we are implementing and developing our own unique domestic product. Currently, operating systems are used for integration with domestic manufacturers of processors, in particular, Elvis. This, for example, the signal processor 1892ВМ10Я (Navikom-02T) with built-in GLONASS / GPS function. RPC Elvis JSC (Zelenograd) is a domestic fabless design center, a leader in the design of multi-core signal microprocessors in Russia. The company's strategy in VLSI projects - conceptually new domestic export-suitable chips. On their basis, it is possible to create advanced dual-use radio-electronic equipment systems with the 10 – 15-year life-support cycle. ”

Boris Sokolov, Deputy Director of the St. Petersburg Institute of Informatics and Automation of the Russian Academy of Sciences, believes that we need to learn how to create multifunctional unified software and hardware systems that are guaranteed to counter external threats. “Our institute is developing a national intellectual analytical platform. Since the most expensive and valuable that no one will sell to us is special software and software. But by and large, it’s time to create a Union of Information and Analytical Systems Developers in the country (Gosinformsystem), so that there is healthy competition at the server level, and the customer (Ministry of Defense, Govt. Structures) could choose the best quality product. ”

In March, the 2014 of the year, a meeting of the academic council of the military industrial complex took place, where they determined the direction in which we should move towards the development of a national information and analytical platform that is directly related to the ACS, including the military. But if we talk about global import substitution in the national economy, the conclusion is disappointing: we are physically unable to create complete chains of electronics production. This is the viewpoint of Alexey Morozov, a representative of Svyaz Engineering CJSC. According to him, this requires five percent of the world market.

Most of the military and government agencies use office tools from Microsoft Corporation. If we consider their composition, they are a text and table processor, presentation preparation tools, a graphical editor, a database. Microsoft Office time to replace. There is a free software package, which is similar to these tools, in particular LibreOffice.

“The point is that Microsoft Office functions on Windows and Mac OS. It does not work on Linux and is unlikely to happen, says Andrei Borisov, a representative of JSC RusBITech. - Therefore, it is necessary to discuss the issue of the availability of source codes for certification and information protection. The corporation does not provide them. Sooner or later, the problem of licensing will also become relevant. At Microsoft Office it costs money, at LibreOffice - for free. ”

If we work in any office tool and save the data in its basic format, then you can not worry about the information. Subsequently, any file is displayed without distortion. If we save the data in a different format (Microsoft Office), then the part may be lost. But the bulk of software in government and military government is outdated. If the files fall into an environment that is certified for information protection requirements, the data will be lost. That is, the questions of import substitution are directly related to the formats that must be used to save documents, including secret documents.

To avoid overlaps, you must:

make adjustments to the departmental regulatory framework to exclude requirements for the use of Microsoft software and formats and include requirements for the use of PDF (Portable Document Format) formats, as well as public fonts developed with the assistance of Rospechat and containing alphabetic characters from all languages ​​of the Russian Federation;
Deploy the LibreOffice office suite to the military and government authorities at the officials' workstations;
release study materials, conduct employee training for the use of the office package LibreOffice.

In the meantime, it seems that every Russian developer of IT-technologies is brewed in its own juice, not combined with other common goals and does not see the wood behind the trees.
Author:
Originator:
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/27714
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  1. VseDoFeNi
    VseDoFeNi 29 October 2015 14: 41
    -1
    So the Communist Party back in the 60s decided to reduce the development of the same logic, copying it from the US 155 and 176 series a copy of the Aybiem logic.
    1. V.ic
      V.ic 29 October 2015 15: 13
      50
      Quote: VseDoFeNi
      So the Communist Party back in the 60s decided to reduce the development of the same logic, copying it from the US 155 and 176 series a copy of the Aybiem logic.

      It's time to stop "nodding" at the CPSU and the USSR! They have been gone for almost a quarter of a century, but there is a state-oligarchic regime governing the Russian Federation, under which this issue is still in a state of "not standing". It came to the "top", like a giraffe, that "it smells fried" and dances with a tambourine about "import substitution" started ...
      1. Mareman Vasilich
        Mareman Vasilich 29 October 2015 15: 20
        14
        This is despite the fact that in this area, at the time of the death of I.V. Stalin, the USSR was in the lead.
        1. Samurai3X
          Samurai3X 29 October 2015 15: 32
          +6
          Quote: Mareman Vasilich
          This is despite the fact that in this area, at the time of the death of I.V. Stalin, the USSR was in the lead.

          Is it possible in more detail? In those days, there were no leaders, in principle, because many in the scientific community considered this an expensive toy. Then everyone was busy with nuclear energy. The Americans only caught on to 1953. Ours opened their eyes much later, but then it was too late.
          1. Irokez
            Irokez 29 October 2015 16: 13
            +7
            Quote: Samurai3X
            but then it was too late

            It's never too late.
            Late - this means it’s already gone and you won’t catch up, but we don’t have one that is left behind for life, if necessary, then we’ll catch up and overtake the problem of resources and desires and a smart approach.
            1. patriot-rf
              patriot-rf 29 October 2015 19: 47
              +1
              with us, a smart approach is always available. Here with desires, like a little strain
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. Samurai3X
              Samurai3X 30 October 2015 16: 18
              +1
              Meant that we were behind on 2 (!!!) generations in computer facilities. The problem is that the party often led the process of studying this area, rather than engineers and scientists. Dumb copying of legacy systems from IBM did not solve the lag problem. Those people in the Academy of Sciences who openly said that science (implied a party decision) was going in this direction the wrong way, did not sit for a long time in this Academy of Sciences. The party could not be mistaken? request
              Even now, we are lagging behind the 1 generation in military computing. You can forget about the civil. There are 2 pillars that will never go anywhere. Yes, and the point? Intel, AMD, Nvidia have long ceased to be US national corporations. They don’t want to lose such a market as the Russian Federation. Therefore, even if the Senate decides to arrange a trick on this side, it will be recommendation not to do business with the Russian Federation. IT corporations will put big and thick on this recommendation.
          2. Mareman Vasilich
            Mareman Vasilich 31 October 2015 01: 01
            +2
            Look on the Internet about the development of information technology, electronics in the USSR.
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 31 October 2015 01: 13
              +1
              Hi Maremanu! hi drinks
              I have been repeating for 20 years that if the country had not been destroyed, then the USSR was now the first in the world in all areas of science and technology!
              and the West made its leap in development, in many respects, thanks to Soviet scientific and industrial developments.
            2. Samurai3X
              Samurai3X 31 October 2015 17: 52
              +1
              My father and I are directly involved in this case. He worked in microelectronics. And he was taught by his grandfathers, who just in the 40-50-60 years. were engineers at the "spearhead" of the development of this direction in the USSR, who also told a lot of interesting things. I am currently working comprehensively in optics and electrical engineering (including nanotechnology).
              I know better than these of your Internet laughing
              Do not fall into insanity and assume that the USSR was the first in everything. It only shows a shallow level of knowledge of the matter. Being the first in everything is impossible. Someone always somewhere in the first place.
              Then the most promising and really needed areas of those times were developed: rocket science, atomic defense, armor and aircraft, radio technologies (radars, reducing the size of walkie-talkies, etc.). And they did it right. In the end, not lagging behind in this area collapsed the union.
              My father told me that in 1980 there was a "rumor" in various specialized design bureaus that they had decided to seriously pour funds into this area in order to make a breakthrough. As they once poured into space. Before that, they were just marking time. At that time, no fools were sitting upstairs and saw a lag + constant failure of equipment on satellites, which made it necessary to spend a lot of people's money on launching new ones. The KGB was also extremely interested in certain things. Some were given the task of researching and copying IBM and other machines (see what and how), others were engaged in scientific activities about alternative methods of creating crystals, and the latter were trying to understand how computers are created on an industrial scale in the United States. In general, a serious approach. The process went on, there were certain successes, the factories were modernized until 1984. Well, after Andropov's death, something went wrong. At the helm was another team, whose hands were not sharpened for that ...
              The union would not have collapsed, perhaps they would now be sitting on some Irish - 8 or Spark - 18М. Or maybe they could have come up with a completely different principle of work in computer technology.
              1. gridasov
                gridasov 31 October 2015 18: 02
                0
                So now we are talking about this new principle.
        2. Aleksey_K
          Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 15: 38
          +6
          Quote: Mareman Vasilich
          This is despite the fact that in this area, at the time of the death of I.V. Stalin, the USSR was in the lead.

          Do not make up. At the time of Stalin's death, there was no micro-radio-electronic industry anywhere in the World, nor in that country. And the first transistor, which began the global reduction of radio equipment, was not invented in the USSR. Cybernetics under Stalin was generally a corrupt girl of imperialism.
          1. Raven1972
            Raven1972 29 October 2015 16: 08
            43
            Quote: Алексей_К
            Cybernetics under Stalin was generally a corrupt girl of imperialism.

            Aghas, and that is why the first computer in the USSR was created already in 1951, it was called MESM - a small electronic computer ... December 25, 1951 regular operation of the first computer in the USSR began. In 1952-1953, MESM was the fastest and almost the only regularly operated computer in Europe. And in the late 60s, computer networks were already used in the USSR, which merikamersff had not had for a long time ... But the backlog began in 1967. after making the decision to copy Western ICs, instead of further developing their own ((((And until briefly, and until the end of the 80s, they almost went head to head, if it weren't for the hump building, it is still unknown who would be in front. .. recourse
            Quote: Алексей_К
            At the time of Stalin's death, there was no micro-radio-electronic industry anywhere in the world.

            Well, yes, but electronic lamps, diodes, resistors and so on. probably kneeled on the knee))))) Do not tell my horseshoes hi

            P.S. Enough of cliched stamps, maybe you should just ask how the computer technology and electronic industry in the USSR actually developed? hi
            1. mark2
              mark2 29 October 2015 18: 13
              13
              I support completely and completely. People can’t even logically think: they can’t manually lift up space into space on manual control, the lunar rover receiving commands from the Earth had to process them and translate them into the motility of its nodes, ballistic missiles also fly in manual mode. This is offhand ...
              And back in the early 90s, at one military engineering base, we guys managed to find American computers of the IBM brand - 8086 and 80286. These are processors. there they stood idle. just stood in a room where there was a variety of such trash. And a little later I managed to work on a domestic analogue, I don't remember exactly the model, but I remember the name - "Iskra 1030" - a funky analogue of the IBM 286 series. Everything was
              What about EC series computers? One day I visited the computer center where they were exploited. Yes, bulky, but slow. but that was enough for those times)
              If then someone was very interested in such products, if someone in the country's leadership looked at the front of his nose, then .... But history does not know the subjunctive moods. We have what we have. And so ... and a planned economy would be better calculated
              1. tolancop
                tolancop 29 October 2015 21: 14
                +3
                The spark-1030 is more likely an analogue of PC XT, and certainly not PC AT (at 286). And the analogue is limited - not all programs running on XT worked on Spark.
                And in the socialist camp, the closest to the "analogs", IMHO, came up the Bulgarian "Pravets-16", from which even the headscarves in the XT fit.
              2. ZAV69
                ZAV69 29 October 2015 21: 17
                +5
                Spark 1030 is an analog of ibm pc xt and not 286. I had one, I even added the Intel 1087 coprocessor to it, there was a socket under it, you just had to bite the jumper.
                And the analogs 286 were made in Minsk, the EU PC series, it seems 1849.
                There was a lot of things in the USSR, the first generation had its own, original, second imitation of DEC (series of SM computers) and IBM 360 (EU computers).
                It's a shame that their poheril.
                1. Asadullah
                  Asadullah 30 October 2015 01: 05
                  +2
                  It's a shame that their poheril.


                  They didn't lose anything. Instead of a planar technology, nothing new was invented, and the development of the VEGA and VILKAS projects were forty years ahead of time in terms of reliability. Everything else is freely available. Hence the author's statement:

                  The GLONASS system uses American Intel,


                  It shows that he is far from the topic, and simply moves someone's product there. Which, in general, is not bad either, but for confidential conversation with the military, there are few speculative thoughts.
            2. Samurai3X
              Samurai3X 30 October 2015 23: 01
              +1
              Read, form
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torpedo_Data_Computer
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC
              38 and 43 years respectively. And the first was nominally put on a submarine.
              Tension the greatness of the USSR on everything and everywhere is not necessary. In many ways, we were the first, but certainly not in computer technology.
          2. ava09
            ava09 29 October 2015 16: 49
            12
            You should not poke others with your nose in those questions where he himself: "I heard the ringing, I don't understand where he is?" The first workable transistors appeared in 1947, at the same time they began to develop schemes for their use. And there is no need to attribute the "merit" of the Trotskyist Khrushch to Stalin. This is Khrushchev, a lover of folklore, talking about "The Corrupt Girl of Imperialism."
            1. venaya
              venaya 29 October 2015 17: 33
              +5
              Quote: ava09
              "I heard the ringing, I don't understand where he is?" The first workable transistors appeared in 1947.

              Very interesting, but what about "crystalline", invented by O. V. Losev in 1928th year, "transistor" is the trade name of the Nobel laureate Shockley, who only repeated ours and came up with a new name 24 years later in 1952. Back in the 30s, the Komsomol newspaper Smena wrote that ac. Yoffe does not give a go to our young inventors, read. These crystals had to be used only in experimental equipment, by the 50s we already had such specialists that they produced hundreds of times more transistors than in the USA.
              1. tolancop
                tolancop 29 October 2015 21: 17
                +1
                No matter how much I read the magazine "Radio", I never came across "Kristalin". KristaDin was mentioned several times in connection with Losev, but I don't remember anything about KristaLin ... Years probably make themselves felt ... :)
              2. tolancop
                tolancop 29 October 2015 21: 41
                +1
                Already answered the post, but I can not help but answer again.
                Before Shokley attributed plagiarism, I suggest at least a little for myself to clarify what a transistor is and what a cristadine is.
                You can find an article on cristadines here: http://masterok.livejournal.com/1178178.html (I got tired of all the eyes on the circuit, but I didn’t find something similar to a transistor !!!

                And the offer to read the Smena magazine of the 30s is generally enchanting ... Even if I find it, then in addition to "clamping" talents, there will certainly be pages describing the atrocities of "enemies of the people." Or is the "clamp" true, and the "enemies" a lie?
                1. luxprofi
                  luxprofi 29 October 2015 22: 53
                  +2
                  I have an annual batch of G. Ogonyok for 1937. There are no pages about enemies of the people at all !!!
              3. Samurai3X
                Samurai3X 31 October 2015 17: 18
                0
                Well done, that he invented. And what about industrial mass production?
              4. gridasov
                gridasov 31 October 2015 17: 48
                -1
                The transistor that we are now using is essentially an elementary device with a linear bipolar distribution of the pulse. At the same time, the prerequisites for the possibility of the multipolar transistor working on a single base are completely obvious. Moreover, such a multipolar transistor easily forms a potential in the polarization of correspondence to a natural series of numbers, which will increase the computer's performance not on the basis of increasing processors, but on the basis of mathematical multipolar logic, and not binary as it is now.
            2. mark2
              mark2 29 October 2015 18: 15
              +9
              “Genetics is the corrupt girl of imperialism” is a phrase attributed to academician Trofim Denisovich Lysenko. The real authorship belongs to the satirical writer Alexander Khazin, the phrase is contained in his play “Wizards live nearby” (1964)
              Similar phrases are found in the address of cybernetics.
              1. ksv1973
                ksv1973 29 October 2015 19: 11
                +4
                Quote: mark2
                “Genetics is the corrupt girl of imperialism” is a phrase attributed to academician Trofim Denisovich Lysenko. The real authorship belongs to the satirical writer Alexander Khazin, the phrase is contained in his play “Wizards live nearby” (1964)
                Similar phrases are found in the address of cybernetics.

                Bravo! hi
                I read the comments and wait for someone to remember the source. Glad you did it !!!
            3. Azitral
              Azitral 29 October 2015 21: 22
              +4
              Don't lie. Even Khrushchev. He cheated - a lot, but you don't need to lie. It was with him that our electronics reached the world level. Zelenograd is he. And rocket science, mainly in his period. And the nuclear submarine. And space, by the way. And there is no need to say that it is "with him", yes "on the previous groundwork"! Unlike your idol, he understood the importance of electronics. And it ended after him. It says mildly about the events of the 67th. And there the groups were disbanded. The equipment was dismantled, sent out in parts! How many people have their lives broken. That's where the betrayal was! Such that there is nothing to compare with.
          3. adept666
            adept666 29 October 2015 19: 40
            +1
            Cybernetics
            Yes it was, but microelectronics - no.
        3. bulvas
          bulvas 29 October 2015 15: 42
          +4
          The challenge is incredibly difficult

          Today, the whole world uses what is created in the USA.

          While it is not possible to count on the commercial payback of your microelectronics, as well as to compete with many types of software.

          Only a focused development program with state financing, designed for many years to come, will it help to create their own products and develop their school of hi-tech specialists.

          Otherwise, more or less capable leave for the West

          The theme for the country is strategic, no less important than defense and agriculture

          1. nemec55
            nemec55 29 October 2015 17: 11
            +4
            Today, the whole world uses what is created in the USA.

            I cried and the Germans were Japanese and even a bunch of countries nervously smoked and waited for the gifts of heaven from the chosen people # $ #% $% # ^ $ %% $.
          2. twviewer
            twviewer 29 October 2015 20: 48
            0
            Quote: bulvas
            While it is not possible to count on the commercial payback of your microelectronics, as well as to compete with many types of software.

            There is nothing impossible in the world.
            And about impossibility usually say either impotent or profit-acquirers.
            Need a state program. Integrated. Why was it not adopted back in 2007 along with the rearmament program? Can an effective manager be both a fool? Not if it is claimed to be effective :) A criminal ?! when it comes to national security ???
            As for software, it’s even simpler, in the same states a quarter of programmers are Russians. Tons of open source public libraries. At the first stage, it will fit perfectly.

            PS The article is good, but belated. It is a pity that the author has not mastered the technical side.
          3. gridasov
            gridasov 30 October 2015 12: 43
            +1
            Talking about development programs is similar to the situation when Khrushchev ordered scientists to open a new chemical element at the next congress. It is not surprising, but now the situation is such that it is necessary to look for banal IDEAS. It is necessary to shake up the whole people who deal with more or less close topics.
            For example, what's the point, that we offer fundamentally new methods of mathematical analysis, so that you can switch to fundamentally new methods of working with information. At the same time, without copying anyone and not being afraid of competitors. But they do not hear us and are not able to hear. There is no program for finding ideas and their development. And time passes and it is not going to wait for anyone.
        4. The comment was deleted.
        5. tolancop
          tolancop 29 October 2015 16: 19
          -1
          The USSR was not a leader in electronics, neither before Stalin, nor during or after. As far as I know, there were some successful developments, but they did not change the overall picture.
          1. tolancop
            tolancop 29 October 2015 20: 11
            +4
            Minus players !!! I have never found fault with the USSR and will not: I was born in it, grew up and received an education. But this does not mean that I do not remember anything and will shout continuous "approvals". The level of electronics was high, but generally inferior to the bourgeoisie. And much depends on the criteria for assessing the level. A simple example: a team of developers came up with something that has no analogues in the world. Great ?! No words, great !!! Only after the victorious banquet it turns out that no one undertakes to do this unparalleled piece (it is unprofitable, does not want to, does not have the physical ability - without a border). Oh, and where is the general delight ?! Okay, found with half a sin, the one who nevertheless embodies the notion in iron. Hurray again ?! Hooray!!! and Again, until it turns out that the idea will not go into the series ... So we arrived ... They could do unique things, but they did not always reach the end user. And is this an advanced level?
            1. sharp-lad
              sharp-lad 29 October 2015 21: 50
              +2
              Yes, that was the case. The Union has accumulated a lot of advanced developments in various fields, but has not been launched into the series. crying But in the early nineties sold to "partners" for a pittance! And now you have to buy your own developments from smart dealers.
        6. EvgNik
          EvgNik 29 October 2015 16: 59
          +1
          Quote: Mareman Vasilich
          USSR was in the lead

          And even in the field of ballet, we are ahead of the rest
          Then yes, we were ahead.
      2. Alexander_
        Alexander_ 29 October 2015 16: 01
        +4
        That's for sure, there aren’t enough for golden parachutes, what kind of electronics is on ***.
      3. VseDoFeNi
        VseDoFeNi 29 October 2015 16: 22
        +2
        Quote: V.ic
        It's time to stop "nodding" at the CPSU and the USSR!

        So they ruined the USSR, how to stop it?

        Quote: V.ic
        For almost a quarter century, they have not been, but there is a state-oligarchic regime,

        Planted by the Americans who defeated us in the Cold War in the first half of the 90s after the dismemberment of the great country - the USSR.

        Quote: V.ic
        in which the given question is still in a state of "not standing".

        Today it’s a lie. The military-industrial complex, as the most high-tech industry, has been restored. Cosmonautics is being restored. Shipbuilding works. The country is reborn after the total collapse of the 90s.
        1. assam4
          assam4 29 October 2015 18: 50
          +4
          So they ruined the USSR, how to stop it?

          And who built the superpower on the ruins of RI? Aren't the communists? And those who destroyed the USSR according to their convictions were definitely not Communists, although many of them were members of the CPSU.
          Planted by the Americans who defeated us in the Cold War in the first half of the 90s after the dismemberment of the great country - the USSR.

          Here are Putin’s words: “There’s a lot of funny things, for example, the US CIA worked in the environment of Anatoly Borisovich, they were put on trial on their return to the United States because they enriched themselves during privatization and violated the law like regular intelligence officers. It was forbidden to them, but they could not resist. Corruption, you understand! ”But someone had to do what they (privatizers - MK) did. They changed the whole structure of the Russian economy ... It was necessary to have the courage to take these steps. There was a lot of everything wrong. But the fact that these people had the courage is an obvious fact. ”
          And the current state-oligarchic regime began to take shape under B. Yeltsin, finally strengthened under Putin ...
          Today it’s a lie. The military-industrial complex, as the most high-tech industry, has been restored. Cosmonautics is being restored. Shipbuilding works. The country is reborn after the total collapse of the 90s.

          I wonder how much% it is restored in comparison with the end of the 80s? ...
          1. VseDoFeNi
            VseDoFeNi 29 October 2015 19: 02
            -8
            Quote: assam4
            Aren't the communists?

            Stalin and his associates.

            Quote: assam4
            And those who destroyed the USSR according to their convictions were definitely not Communists, although many of them were members of the CPSU.

            "They are all different! That is the problem.
            There are different people: kind, sympathetic, honest, decent, womanizer, brainless, corrupt, greedy, generous ... very different.
            Communists are people, they are all DIFFERENT. ” © VseDoFeNi
            Do not idealize, illusions are dangerous collapse of the country.

            Quote: assam4
            And the current state-oligarchic regime began to take shape under B. Yeltsin, and finally became stronger under Putin ..

            “Today, under Putin, people in Russia live as RICH as they never lived in the foreseeable past. Vivid evidence of this is the courtyards of Russian cities, clogged with cars, many of which were bought with overpayment on credit. This indicates that people have money to overpay and the lack of intelligence, so as not to overpay.
            And I will repeat it as long as there are those who do not understand this. ”© VseDoFeNi

            Quote: assam4
            I wonder how much% it is restored in comparison with the end of the 80s? ...
            BELAZ abroad, Yuzhmash too ...
            Let me remind you that in 1991 the corrupt brainless communists destroyed the USSR, tied the RUBLE to the DOLLAR, deprived our enterprises of work and financing ...
            Putin is forced to correct the consequences of this destruction.
            1. sa-ag
              sa-ag 29 October 2015 19: 36
              +6
              Quote: VseDoFeNi
              Let me remind you that in 1991 the corrupt brainless communists destroyed the USSR, tied the RUBLE to the DOLLAR, deprived our enterprises of work and financing ...
              Putin is forced to correct the consequences of this destruction.

              Yeltsin ceased to be a communist in 1989 at the XIX party conference, Putin in 1991, do you mention them?
              1. VseDoFeNi
                VseDoFeNi 30 October 2015 08: 47
                0
                About them, about them. I repeat about Putin.
                Putin is forced to correct the consequences of the dismemberment of the USSR.

                How could it be easier for you to explain ... DO NOT put on a par with a mother of many children and lesbians ala Femen.
              2. VseDoFeNi
                VseDoFeNi 30 October 2015 08: 47
                0
                About them, about them. I repeat about Putin.
                Putin is forced to correct the consequences of the dismemberment of the USSR.

                How could it be easier for you to explain ... DO NOT put on a par with a mother of many children and lesbians ala Femen.
            2. assam4
              assam4 29 October 2015 21: 20
              +2
              Stalin and his associates.


              And which party consisted of Stalin and associates?

              “Today, under Putin, people in Russia live as RICH as they never lived in the foreseeable past.


              Especially such "representatives of the people" as Deripaska, Abramovich, Fridman, and their "comrades" from the Forbes list ...

              Vivid evidence of this are the yards of Russian cities, clogged with cars


              During economic growth (but not development), due to high world prices for hydrocarbons, the people got some crumbs from the "master's table", but as soon as oil fell in price, car sales fell by 2 times. By the way, most of the cars are of foreign production, and AtoVAZ is no longer entirely Russian.

              many of which are bought with overpayment on credit. This indicates that people have money to overpay and the lack of intelligence, so as not to overpay.


              In some cases, the way it is. But many people buy expensive goods on credit, because with a small salary and high inflation it is unrealistic to save money for an expensive purchase.

              There are different people: kind, sympathetic, honest, decent, womanizer, brainless, corrupt, greedy, generous ... very different.


              After perestroika, the "brainless, venal, greedy" came to power (and they are still in power), but this system does not accept honest and decent ...

              BELAZ abroad, Yuzhmash too ...
              Let me remind you that in 1991 the corrupt brainless communists destroyed the USSR, tied the RUBLE to the DOLLAR, deprived our enterprises of work and financing ...
              Putin is forced to correct the consequences of this destruction.


              GDP called the Stalinist regime "ugly", and never said anything bad about Yeltsin, the main initiator of the collapse of the USSR. On the contrary, according to him, under Boris Yeltsin, "Russia received a second birth." "It has become a civilized open state, and the role of the first president in the formation of this state is enormous,"

              Putin is forced to correct the consequences of this destruction.


              . It gives liberals freedom of action in the economy. He encourages Nabiullina and Medvedev (an office where the followers of E Gaidar and Chubais run the economy). He defends their actions with his authority. Among the untouchable and respected gurus of the economy are Kudrin and Gref. The authorities clearly stand guard over bankers and financial speculators, commodity officials (shadow oligarchs). Turning backwards to industry.
              1. VseDoFeNi
                VseDoFeNi 30 October 2015 19: 49
                0
                Quote: assam4
                And which party consisted of Stalin and associates?

                Most of our citizens were non-partisan. This time. And in which party were the collapsed USSR?

                Quote: assam4
                During economic growth (but not development), due to high world prices for hydrocarbons

                Something is not observed either in Norway or in other Nigeria. fool

                Quote: assam4
                By the way, cars are mostly foreign-made, and AtoVAZ is no longer entirely Russian.

                You admire China, whose entire industry is foreign.

                Quote: assam4
                After perestroika, "brainless, venal, greedy" came to power

                Before perestroika came, do not build illusions. They came, made perestroika and methodically dismembered the USSR.

                Quote: assam4
                GDP called Stalin's regime "ugly"

                Give a quote. Preferably on the video.

                Quote: assam4
                It gives liberals freedom of action in the economy.

                He gives the people to live as richly as he never lived in the foreseeable past.
        2. V.ic
          V.ic 30 October 2015 06: 11
          +1
          Quote: VseDoFeNi
          Today it’s a lie. The military-industrial complex, as the most high-tech industry, has been restored.

          Have you realized that you didn't fit into the topic of the article? If it has been restored, then why is the question of "import substitution" raised on the bill? Are we "all right, lovely marquise"? Your words: "today it is already a lie" should be understood so that there is no lag behind our "sworn partners" in the area mentioned in this article? You sing boringly ... and not on business ...
          1. VseDoFeNi
            VseDoFeNi 30 October 2015 19: 52
            0
            What are you turning around, like in a frying pan. Helicopter engines from Ukraine cannot be replaced in one day. If this is not clear to you, you are not capable. You only know how to throw a fan. And it flies on you first of all.
      4. Xanna
        Xanna 30 October 2015 05: 56
        0

        It is important to produce what defines information security. And this is MP and other components, including resistors.



        And what about the information security resistors ??? That's just what they can be imported. Microcontrollers and complex mikruhi need to be made, since it is in them that on the hardware level you can sew different left teams. You do not sew anything into the resistor.

        And most importantly, this is its own software, and comprehensive, for offices and offices, ranging from the OS to calculators, substitutes for Word and Excel, etc., because the lion's share of espionage is now at the software level. For software, a lot of working capital is not needed, small teams can also develop it, although at first it will be poorly not optimized for hardware and more universal, but the main thing is your own! And raising the coding of your software in the country is not such a problem, the main thing is the support of the state and the confidence of the developer in demand.

        Today, even relatively free things are done for free! A vivid example is such projects as Ubuntu. This is proof that even enthusiasts can at a very good level! And with minimal investment - even more so.
        In general, we can, we simply don’t want to, or someone is lobbying strongly for the interests of the West! In the meantime, do not eliminate lobbyists - little will come of it!

        release study materials, conduct employee training for the use of the office package LibreOffice.


        That's right, the transition to the open source system, at least at first, will protect against headaches associated with the left and undeclared data collection functions of any Windows.
      5. Totalwar
        Totalwar 30 October 2015 08: 32
        0
        Each problem has its own price. The cost of this problem is 10 billion dollars. a plant can be built within 2 years and processors similar to Intel and AMD can begin to stamp. True, you will have to give bribes, lure and recruit foreign personnel for this work in the early stages. Well, or to step over the officials through themselves and invest in the existing developments of domestic manufacturers .. True, here, too, it will not work without kickbacks laughing
    2. Mitek
      Mitek 29 October 2015 15: 15
      +9
      Not always copied. There are our most interesting developments, Setun for example. Another thing is that the introduction and replacement is only entering the initial phase, to my great regret ... But it has already begun. And import computers everywhere have bookmarks. And the computers standing in the authorities, despite technical checks, most have bookmarks that allow you to either destroy the computer or get information from it.
      A separate article deserves the lack of a domestic operating system. True, information about the domestic axis flashed, but this system was not widely used. Windows 10 already openly collects and sends information about the user and his contacts, correspondence in the USA. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. The possibilities laid down in it for espionage are much greater.
      1. Zoldat_A
        Zoldat_A 29 October 2015 15: 56
        +6
        Quote: Mitek
        Windows 10 already openly collects and sends information about the user and his contacts, correspondence in the USA. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. The possibilities laid down in it for espionage are much greater.

        It would be foolish to assume that such a global thing as the OS is not used by the developer for some of his purposes. After all, she is everywhere - both in the ministries, and with our nano-President in the iPhone ... In a proprietary piece of this magnitude, yes, do not hide "undocumented opportunities" - this is a complete sucker to be! The output is a fully local wired network. And the processors, they say, were their own, Soviet ones. You can laugh as much as you like over the "Electronics NC" architecture, but if you look at the processor with which the Americans flew to the moon, then they were quite promising.

        Only while we have the Chief Nanotechnologist - Red Fox, in Skolkovo they will invent anti-vandal bulbs for porches for 10 ty, and give lectures on 5 minutes for 24 lyam to read ... And we will do local wire networks and encryption algorithms. Secrecy provided. negative
      2. region58
        region58 29 October 2015 17: 57
        0
        Quote: Mitek
        True, information about the domestic axis flashed, but this system was not widely used.

        Rosa fresh set himself to "have a look", in general, nothing bad ... Another thing is that the stereotype has already taken shape: a computer means Windows ...
        And the search engine "Sputnik" is ...
    3. rafaelich
      rafaelich 29 October 2015 15: 22
      0
      Not Aybiemovskoy! ..
    4. tolancop
      tolancop 29 October 2015 16: 25
      +2
      Responsible comrades in the CPSU did not make decisions "out of the blue." If the direction was closed, then on the basis of the conclusions of a heap of specialists. And specialists could at the same time pursue their interests, there are many examples ... Besides, I see nothing wrong with copying: it allows you to save a lot of time and money, and at the same time also learn. And copying as a step towards your own progress can only be welcomed, as long as others follow this step.
      And for some reason I always thought that the 155 series is Texas Instruments.
      1. VseDoFeNi
        VseDoFeNi 29 October 2015 16: 40
        -7
        Quote: tolancop
        Responsible comrades in the CPSU did not make decisions "out of the blue."

        They made irresponsible decisions "out of the blue." They dried the Aral Sea, ruined the virgin soil, pulling out the salt marshes ...
        1. tolancop
          tolancop 29 October 2015 20: 21
          +1
          You would, before answering my post, first THINKED what was written.
          At least about the "rise of virgin soil". It was the largest economic, social and political event. And for its implementation, huge resources were involved, cut off from other events. Do you think the decision was made "from the bulldozer"? And for some reason I am convinced that many tons of paper were spent for justifications and calculations. And after that, the time for "baldy" came. It is now, "with hindsight" we know about the Aral Sea and salt marshes and much more. And then it is very possible that they did not know or that those who knew were not allowed to open their mouths.
          1. VseDoFeNi
            VseDoFeNi 30 October 2015 20: 19
            0
            Quote: tolancop
            At least about the "rise of virgin soil". It was the largest economic, social and political event.

            Exactly, precisely, was it after him that the USSR bought grain in millions of tons? fool

            Quote: tolancop
            It is now, "with hindsight" we know about the Aral Sea and salt marshes and much more.

            You almost answered the question - where does a person have a mind? laughing

            Learn the axiom - a person in his entire history has not created anything that would not harm us directly or indirectly.
        2. V.ic
          V.ic 30 October 2015 06: 16
          +2
          Quote: VseDoFeNi
          Dried Aral,

          They dried it like that, with rags and toilet paper? Moreover, they warmed it up with a hairdryer ... The problem of the drying up of the Aral Sea should not be attributed to the communists. Read the works of L.N. Gumilev. In several places he mentions the "connection" between the drying up of the Aral Sea and the filling of the Caspian Sea and vice versa. Everything is tied to the zone of passage of cyclones. I am not a meteorologist or climatologist, but the determinism of these processes was described by Lev Nikolayevich Gumilev.
          1. VseDoFeNi
            VseDoFeNi 31 October 2015 10: 03
            0
            Quote: V.ic
            Communists should not ascribe the problem of drying the Aral Sea.

            What? Itself has dried up ??? laughing

            Quote: V.ic
            Read the works of L.N. Gumilyov.

            Gumilyov, who is he? Creator and Almighty?
            The same Mechnikov did not understand the significance of the colon in humans, considering it to be the cause of autointoxication.

            Quote: V.ic
            Everything is tied to the cyclone passage zone.

            I recall something about the Karakum Canal, about irrigation and irrigation of cotton with water drainage from the Syr Darya and Amu Darya. Scientists like stretching to nature.
    5. Sweles
      Sweles 29 October 2015 16: 46
      +7
      The author was afraid to say that Russia did not even adopt a program of state support and development of RUSSIAN ELECTRONICS and such Russian companies as Mikron, Angstrom, MTsST, T-platforms carry out all work on research and development, development and creation of microcircuits at their own expense. With such a pace of the creation of microcircuits, we will have to wait a long time for the creation of real independence and sovereignty, so if Russia goes too far somewhere, then we will be left without glonas and without a machine park, and without advanced weapons.
      The latest ELBRUS, BAIKALS are still made in China and Taiwan. It turns out all this import substitution, one-sided, BASIC-ELECTRONICS, then without which ANYTHING does not work now, for some reason are ignored by the Russian government.
      When will the first Russian computer already appear? unknowingly. Rather, some kind of Turkey or Egypt will release its own comp.
      1. sa-ag
        sa-ag 29 October 2015 17: 56
        0
        Quote: Sveles
        , T-platforms, all work on R&D, development and creation of microcircuits is carried out at their own expense.

        I remember in the media there was a scandal with T-platforms, even before the Olympic Games, where the USA forbade T-platforms to use components and developments made in the USA in their products, the head of T-platforms rushed to Putin with a request to resolve the issue with partners, such are his own development
    6. The comment was deleted.
  2. Lt. Air Force stock
    Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 14: 44
    15
    Russia needs to develop its microchips primarily by creating commercial products for the PC market, the only way microprocessors can be developed.
    If we compare Elbrus with Intel I7 6700K, the choice will not be in our favor. We need to set the task to create a microchip an order of magnitude more productive than the latest microchip from Intel.
    1. EGOrkka
      EGOrkka 29 October 2015 14: 49
      14
      Lt. Air Force stock
      not in our favor.



      Elbrus is made purely for defense. .... and the benefits ... correspond to the task!
      1. Lt. Air Force stock
        Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 14: 51
        +2
        Quote: EGOrkka
        Elbrus is made purely for defense. .... and the benefits ... correspond to the task!

        And in the defense industry that compact powerful processors are not needed?
        1. Baikonur
          Baikonur 29 October 2015 14: 58
          11
          Quote: Lt. Air Force stock
          Russia needs to develop its microchips. We need to set the task to create a microchip an order of magnitude more productive than the latest microchip from Intel.

          So it is, and we have the minds and nanotechnology!
          But RosNano (you know who you are) is not doing that at all!
          And Skolkovo (you yourself know who) is inventing children's "toys"!
          The enemies of Russia are in positions of leverage of the State Mechanism!

          SABOTAGE!

          Microprocessor - This is the processor of all State electronics, heart!
          If it is its own, powerful, healthy - then the whole body will function perfectly!
          And if someone else’s, and even specially programmed for illness, death, then ...

          1. Zoldat_A
            Zoldat_A 29 October 2015 16: 17
            +3
            Quote: Baikonur
            Microprocessor - This is the processor of all State electronics, heart!
            If it is its own, powerful, healthy - then the whole body will function perfectly!
            And if someone else’s, and even specially programmed for illness, death, then ...

            Slightly off-topic, but the essence is the same - when they were going to buy Mistrals, I kept thinking - is it possible on a unit of such complexity, and even made under the control of, to put it mildly, an unfriendly military-political bloc, to examine at least all the hidden cavities on the subject of 100-200 kilos of explosives? And where is the guarantee that it will not explode at the most inopportune moment? It seems to me that hiding a radio-controlled land mine in a piece of iron of such mass is easier than a steamed turnip.

            And what can we say about the sabotage capabilities of Windows? Or about the ability of the same Intel to remotely work out a command, for example, for an uncontrolled increase in frequency (acceleration), as a result of which it will be kirdyk, and with it, for example, a large-large rocket, which it controls.

            By the way, the classification of processors into groups according to operating conditions is touching. Even before the appearance of two-bucket stones, I read about the overclockers' coven in the "Computer-Press" magazine. So the Americans, probably, could not imagine that the Pen-4 3,2GHz can be overclocked to 8GHz. However, if you cool it with liquid nitrogen.
        2. EGOrkka
          EGOrkka 29 October 2015 15: 33
          +3
          Lt. Air Force stock
          And in the defense industry that compact powerful processors are not needed?


          ...... you look ... at your leisure in a hardware store ...... notice that the sizes of processors depending on performance .... differ ... not dramatically, but if you read literature ... then show up that the more productive the processor, the more energy is required for operation and for cooling the system. Elbrus is the golden mean of performance and power consumption! It was not created for games ... smile
          1. Zoldat_A
            Zoldat_A 29 October 2015 16: 34
            +6
            Quote: EGOrkka
            Elbrus is the golden mean of performance and power consumption! Not for games, it was created ...

            So each processor is needed for something of its own. To play with toys - this is how iron runs racing with software manufacturers. And to launch a rocket - so the processor at the level of the programmable calculator B3-34 is enough.

            The computer, for example, installed on the Apollo 11 lunar module, had about 4 KB of RAM (ferrite RAM for 2 048-bit words), ferrite ROM for 15 36-bit words, consisted of 864 microcircuits, and weighed 15 kg and cost 5000 thousand dollars. I do not want to get involved in the "flew-did not fly" disputes now, but the Americans say that they flew to the moon with such a computer. And more than once.
            1. MrK
              MrK 29 October 2015 18: 30
              +1
              Agree Zoldat_A. I will add. In the not secret already "Zaslon" on the basis of the 133 series, the Hungarian method of target allocation was implemented and worked perfectly.
            2. Awaz
              Awaz 30 October 2015 00: 38
              +1
              probably by the middle of 80 = x the computer that controlled all the spacecraft of the USSR is now unlikely to even open a page in Word ..
              In general, I agree that for many processes you do not need some kind of special super duper technique. You can do with quite average characteristics that Russia can afford.
              1. Zoldat_A
                Zoldat_A 30 October 2015 04: 19
                +2
                Quote: AwaZ
                probably by the middle of 80 = x the computer that controlled all the spacecraft of the USSR now hardly even opens a page in Word..
                A page in the Word is 99,999% of graphics and 0,001% of the algorithm (calculations). Therefore, TE processors are guaranteed to not cope with the Word. And launching a rocket is just the opposite. The main thing there is an algorithm (calculation), and a 7-thread tube indicator was enough for display. But as an example of the difference of tasks - absolutely true. More than 99 percent of the power of all super-duper Intel goes on schedule. And the ICBM can also be directed with a programmable Soviet micro-calculator. I remember that on MK-85 there were even programs in BASIC like toys - submarines, artillery, etc. And I think a good engineer would be able to easily calculate the launch of the Topol ... laughing
                1. Awaz
                  Awaz 30 October 2015 08: 59
                  0
                  Well, that's what I meant. If there are some own and unique, albeit a little "outdated" in the generally accepted scale, schematic solutions, they can probably be produced, at least for a narrow spectrum of the military-industrial complex and even partially for state structures. Here, after all, the main thing is to start mass production and not slide into extras, then maybe even buyers abroad will begin to appear, if maximum reliability and quality are ensured.
                  And the most important thing is not to copy someone else’s but to invent your own. We still have smart heads that can do it simply and uniquely. It is necessary to use it ...
          2. Raven1972
            Raven1972 29 October 2015 16: 36
            +2
            Quote: EGOrkka
            Elbrus is the golden mean of performance and power consumption! Not for games, it was created ...

            Moreover, it is also with open architecture (CISC), which allows you to increase computing power without any problems, and even a full-threaded parallel processor .... hi
            1. region58
              region58 29 October 2015 22: 16
              +1
              Quote: Raven1972
              open architecture (CISC)

              CISC, RISC, MISC is a little about ...
          3. Lt. Air Force stock
            Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 18: 03
            -3
            Quote: EGOrkka
            . notice that the sizes of the processors depending on the performance .... differ ... not dramatically, but if you read the literature ... then it turns out that the more efficient the processor, the more energy it needs to work and to cool the system.

            By compact processor, I meant portable (increase in productivity due to improvement of the microchip), it’s clear that from hundreds of elbrus you can create a supercomputer occupying an entire floor with tremendous performance, but it will not be a portable computer anymore; it will be difficult for a plane, submarine or ship to install dimensions.
            1. ZAV69
              ZAV69 29 October 2015 21: 32
              +1
              And what the hell is a supercomputer in a submarine? For most tasks, 3 hemp performance is quite enough !!!!!! A telephone station with 30000 numbers is operated by p III 1000 Mz. Just ... They say that they tried to increase the capacity of rooms to 60000 and the processor coped. We are now witnessing a collusion of software writers and iron producers, so sometimes on Windows 7 the Windows slows down and we want more.
            2. Azitral
              Azitral 30 October 2015 09: 16
              +2
              The well-known "Arzamas-16" makes desktop supercomputers (not quite according to the main profile). Not "petaflops", of course, but enough. It looks like a somewhat swollen system unit in thickness. What element base - I do not know, I was not interested. I think, ordinary "household" Intel. By the way, to do this is not at all a trivial task, even with a good element base, contrary to popular belief.
        3. Sura
          Sura 29 October 2015 15: 36
          0
          Yes, everything is there, again this Falichev with an all-prose article on electronics.
          Reason sensibly, an example in front of everyone in front of Syria. Or, what exactly do they bomb and precisely launch missiles with the help of cunning ropes?
          Only here in Udmurtia, those who know, the old factories of the Radio Plant in Izhevsk, Elekond in Sarapul, and that there are all stupid people and do not understand anything at all in electronics? And across Russia, how many electronics plants? And all the fools? ..., and one Falichev is more cunning than all ...
          The production of civilian electronics, mainly in China, is cheap rabsila, the construction of factory buildings is simpler than ours (the walls are thin), there is no need for heating costs there, there is a whole range of minerals for electronics, nothing needs to be imported (customs duties on raw materials are everywhere high). World division of labor.
          1. Sura
            Sura 29 October 2015 15: 59
            -1
            Military Cosmic Forces is hard to say louder about our electronics.
        4. region58
          region58 29 October 2015 15: 44
          +5
          Quote: Lt. air force reserve
          And in the defense industry that compact powerful processors are not needed?

          In the vast majority of cases, no. Need reliability. And the noise immunity, which is directly related to the process technology, that is, I7 according to the 45-14nm process technology in conditions of electromagnetic interference, is unlikely to work stably ...
      2. sa-ag
        sa-ag 29 October 2015 17: 58
        +2
        Quote: EGOrkka
        Elbrus is made purely for defense.

        and manufacturers of Elbrus work purely on a budget, judging by their site, of course - guaranteed sales and lack of competition
      3. region58
        region58 29 October 2015 18: 03
        0
        Quote: EGOrkka
        Elbrus is made purely for defense.

        I would say for the public sector.
    2. Vend
      Vend 29 October 2015 14: 52
      +3
      Quote: Lt. Air Force stock
      Russia needs to develop its microchips primarily by creating commercial products for the PC market, the only way microprocessors can be developed.
      If we compare Elbrus with Intel I7 6700K, the choice will not be in our favor. We need to set the task to create a microchip an order of magnitude more productive than the latest microchip from Intel.

      That's right, you need to develop. Back in the 90s, our "kulibins" created a model superior to Penyok 4. Although at that time the third Penyok had just appeared. Our guys didn't find funding. How many promising developments then sank into oblivion. Do not count.
      1. Lt. Air Force stock
        Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 14: 58
        +2
        Quote: Wend
        That's right, you need to develop. Back in the 90s, our "kulibins" created a model superior to Penyok 4. Although at that time the third Penyok had just appeared. Our guys didn't find funding. How many promising developments then sank into oblivion. Do not count.

        Well, here everything depends on the clock frequency, yes there are multi-core processors, but they do not speed up many processes. For example, when converting one video file from one format to another, only one core is loaded, the rest are idle, and will help speed up the process if several video files are encoded at once, but not one.
        The clock frequency is growing very slowly, now the ceiling is for serial processors (we are not talking about overclocking to 6 gigahertz using liquid nitrogen), 4-4,2 gigahertz is not enough for some processors. For example, 40 minute video in H265 format is encoded for many hours at 4,2 gigahertz.
        1. region58
          region58 29 October 2015 15: 28
          +4
          Quote: Lt. air force reserve
          Well, here everything depends on the clock frequency, yes there are multi-core processors, but they do not speed up many processes.

          Dear, everything you say is true for the house for everyday life. Maybe you can tell us here, why, having run into a dead end in frequencies, the producers and developers of the processes have taken the path of parallelization? Are you aware that this architecture was almost completely borrowed by Sun at one time, having bought out our designers with giblets (I will not name the names)? And are you aware that then, with the "ripping" of Sun, this architecture was partially borrowed by Intel? Is it because our designers are stupid? And you generally know the fact that until the time of Leonid Ilyich, we were ahead of the rest of the planet in architecture and computing power, in the development of large computers ... and the designer remained ...
          1. Lt. Air Force stock
            Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 17: 03
            -2
            Quote: region58
            Perhaps you will tell us here, why did you run into a dead end in frequencies,

            With increasing frequency, the heating increases, and here there are problems with cooling the system.
            1. region58
              region58 29 October 2015 17: 37
              +2
              Quote: Lt. air force reserve
              With increasing frequency, the heating increases, and here there are problems with cooling the system.

              Heating is one of the most harmless consequences of increasing the frequency. To understand the essence of processes, you can dig deeper into superscalar architecture ... In addition, you should not forget that the processor has peripherals, where there are limitations ...
              PS I really do not want to use terms that are not clear to everyone.
        2. Aleksey_K
          Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 15: 47
          +5
          Quote: Lt. air force reserve
          For example, when converting one video file from one format to another, only one core is loaded, the rest are idle,

          It depends on the programmers. If the conversion program is based on outdated software that does not use multithreading and parallelization of processes, then one core will be loaded. Modern software allows you to use not only all cores for huge tasks, but also all available computers on the network.
          1. Lt. Air Force stock
            Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 16: 56
            +1
            Quote: Алексей_К

            It depends on the programmers. If the conversion program is based on outdated software that does not use multithreading and parallelization of processes, then one core will be loaded. Modern software allows you to use for huge tasks not only all the cores, but also all available computers on the network

            There are programs that use several cores, but the gain in speed is due to parallel conversion, in simple language, if the processor is 4-core, then it can simultaneously encode the 4th video (each video will load only one core), but if you encode 1- about the video, only one core will be loaded, the rest will be idle.
          2. xtur
            xtur 29 October 2015 20: 36
            0
            > It depends on the programmers.

            it depends on the nature of the process that runs on the processor. There are tasks that can be parallelized, but there are tasks that should be performed only sequentially.

            this is the result of computer theory
        3. purple
          purple 29 October 2015 15: 49
          +2
          nonsense, loading one core only speaks of imperfect transcoder software, that's all, the frequency is not a panacea, the fourth stumps had crazy megahertz, and why, their barks were torn then with a lower frequency, precisely due to multicore
          1. region58
            region58 29 October 2015 22: 02
            0
            Quote: purple
            nonsense, loading one core only speaks of imperfect transcoder software

            No. There are processes that can only be performed sequentially. Roughly speaking, you cannot build a third floor until the first two are ready. If specifically about the video, then it is encoded quite specifically, you can not start from an arbitrary point.
        4. Vend
          Vend 29 October 2015 16: 11
          0
          Quote: Lt. Air Force stock

          Well, here everything depends on the clock frequency, yes there are multi-core processors, but they do not speed up many processes. For example, when converting one video file from one format to another, only one core is loaded, the rest are idle, and will help speed up the process if several video files are encoded at once, but not one.
          The clock frequency is growing very slowly, now the ceiling is for serial processors (we are not talking about overclocking to 6 gigahertz using liquid nitrogen), 4-4,2 gigahertz is not enough for some processors. For example, 40 minute video in H265 format is encoded for many hours at 4,2 gigahertz.

          You are probably right, I am far from technology.
        5. i80186
          i80186 29 October 2015 16: 38
          +5
          Quote: Lt. air force reserve
          4-4,2 gigahertz, which is not enough for some processors. For example, a 40-minute video in H265 format is encoded for many hours at 4,2 gigahertz.

          Imagine, but there are specialized microcircuits that will not be a processor at all, and can carry out encoding almost instantly. Moreover, there are programmable logic microcircuits that make it possible to implement this in the form necessary for a specific task, which provides tremendous performance against the background of conventional processors. smile
          1. Lt. Air Force stock
            Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 16: 59
            0
            Quote: i80186
            Imagine, but there are specialized microcircuits that will not be a processor at all, and can carry out encoding almost instantly. Moreover, there are programmable logic microcircuits that make it possible to implement this in the form necessary for a specific task, which provides tremendous performance against the background of conventional processors.

            If so, Youtube would buy such systems long ago and their servers would not process video in 4K format for 12 hours. Yes, even the relatively old 1080P format is processed for 2-3 hours.
            1. i80186
              i80186 29 October 2015 17: 16
              0
              Quote: Lt. air force reserve
              If so, Youtube would buy such systems long ago and their servers would not process video in 4K format for 12 hours. Yes, even the relatively old 1080P format is processed for 2-3 hours.

              And here they are. winked
              http://www.intrasoft-spb.ru/catalog/computers/codec_mpeg4_h264_mjpeg
              1. Lt. Air Force stock
                Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 17: 31
                -1
                Quote: i80186
                And here they are.
                http://www.intrasoft-spb.ru/catalog/computers/codec_mpeg4_h264_mjpeg

                There we are talking about H264, H265 is several times more demanding due to the greater degree of video compression. Video in H265 format with the same quality as H264 takes up 2 times less disk space and lower bitrate. This codec was developed in order to offload traffic on the Internet. There are no hardware converters yet.
                In H264, an ordinary modern processor also encoded 40 minutes of video (1 pass encoding) for 30 minutes, a maximum of 1 hour. And in H265 hours 12.
                1. i80186
                  i80186 29 October 2015 18: 38
                  +1
                  Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                  I'm talking about H264, H265 is several times more demanding due to the greater degree of video compression. Video in H265 format with the same quality as H264 takes up 2 times less disk space and lower bitrate. This codec was developed in order to offload traffic on the Internet. There are no hardware converters yet.
                  In H264, an ordinary modern processor also encoded 40 minutes of video (1 pass encoding) for 30 minutes, a maximum of 1 hour. And in H265 hours 12.

                  Yes, that's not the point. The bottom line is that you can encode-decode anything using hardware methods, as well as perform any other operation. For example, multiply / divide floating-point numbers, or do convolution with correlation. Anything else, otherwise cruise missiles would not fly. smile
                  1. Lt. Air Force stock
                    Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 18: 59
                    -1
                    Quote: i80186

                    Yes, that's not the point. The bottom line is that you can encode-decode anything using hardware methods, as well as perform any other operation. For example, multiply / divide floating-point numbers, or do convolution with correlation. Anything else, otherwise cruise missiles would not fly.

                    Yes, it’s possible, but such systems only take off the load from the processor, they can hardly encode video in seconds, very powerful video cards + to the processor which part of the calculations during encoding take care of all the same do not greatly accelerate the process, and these hardware converters hardly have capacities of top-end video cards.
                    No matter how powerful the hardware card is, anyway the calculations need to be done enormously during coding and it is unlikely that such cards are more powerful than processors in conjunction with video cards.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. i80186
                      i80186 29 October 2015 19: 14
                      0
                      Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                      No matter how powerful the hardware card is, anyway, the calculations need to be done enormously during encoding and it is unlikely that the cards are more powerful than processors in conjunction with video cards.

                      Well, that's straight from the tin about H.265. http://www.ixbt.com/news/ht/187516 Pay attention, coding "IN REAL TIME" Have you been banned from Google or what? laughing
                      1. Lt. Air Force stock
                        Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 19: 44
                        -1
                        Quote: i80186
                        Well, that's straight from the tin about H.265. http://www.ixbt.com/news/ht/187516 Pay attention, coding "IN REAL TIME" Have you been banned from Google or what?

                        "Almost instantly" as you said and in real time are slightly different concepts. In real time, this 40 minute video is encoded in 40 minutes.
                        For mass coding such schemes are not suitable. Such a board can encode in real time one 4K video or 4th 1080P video, 86400 hours of video are downloaded on Youtube per day (9,86 years of video, almost 10 years of video every day), well, how many such boards are needed to process such colossal video volumes?
                        And if similar boards already exist for the H264 format, why do video hosting services still process video for hours, and not in real time?
                        The answer is simple, mass coding requires powerful servers, not hardware boards.
                      2. i80186
                        i80186 29 October 2015 20: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                        "Almost instantly" as you said and in real time are slightly different concepts. In real time, this 40 minute video is encoded in 40 minutes.

                        This is what you think, but what GOST thinks.
                        Real-time mode - Information processing mode, in which the information processing system interacts with external processes relative to it at a pace commensurate with the speed of these processes. [GOST 15971 90](C)
                        The flow rate is the rate of change of the image, i.e. 60 frames per second. This means a delay in the region of 1/60 = 16ms. And pay attention, all this on four channels at the same time. winked
                      3. Lt. Air Force stock
                        Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 20: 16
                        0
                        Quote: i80186
                        The flow rate is the rate of change of the image, i.e. 60 frames per second.

                        Now a lot of videos are shot in 1080P 60fps format, a smoother picture is obtained, although the size of the video is increasing. Everything is correct 60 frames per second, if the video was shot in the format of 30 frames per second, and the encoding speed would be 60 frames per second, then the encoding duration of the 40 minute video would take 20 minutes, and so I wrote everything correctly. 1-in 40-minute file will be encoded 40 minutes
                        For four channels, these are 4 separate 1080P videos, one 1080P video will occupy one channel. The program cannot cut the video into four parts and load it with 4 channels.
                        On the site, it is written that the board can encode either one video in 4K format or the 4th video in parallel in 1080P format.
                        For example, download some kind of converter that supports multi-channel encoding, and try to convert one video file, only one core will be involved.
                      4. i80186
                        i80186 29 October 2015 20: 28
                        -1
                        Quote: Lt. air force reserve
                        A 40 minute video would take 20 minutes, and so I wrote it right.

                        And if the video was three months long, it would encode one and a half, yeah. laughing
                      5. Lt. Air Force stock
                        Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 20: 42
                        -1
                        Quote: i80186
                        And if the video was three months long, it would encode one and a half, yeah.

                        There are no such long videos. For fun, ask the torrent trackers a question about how much they encode a 1,5 hour 50 gig bluray, the answer will be several hours with a multi-pass encoding method (to achieve the best quality, video is encoded in several passes).
            2. ZAV69
              ZAV69 29 October 2015 21: 44
              +1
              And what do you actually rested in video coding? To control the machine with CNC so 286 stones for the eyes, but what 286, there z80 will cope. But such tasks are generally the majority.
              1. Lt. Air Force stock
                Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 21: 57
                0
                Quote: ZAV69
                To control the machine with CNC so 286 stones for the eyes, but what 286, there z80 will cope. But such tasks are generally the majority.

                And for designing in AutoCAD, or 3D compass, it’s not enough anymore, I7 is needed there, a decent graphics card and more RAM.
                And if we talk about simulating physical processes, a supercomputer is already needed there.
              2. Awaz
                Awaz 30 October 2015 09: 04
                0
                I'm not a big specialist in Compass 3 D and in general in graphic editors it’s really not very strong. But a friend of mine, who understands, says that in the first versions of these programs, designed for simpler processors and video cards, you can do almost the same thing. According to him: even in the west, in fairly decent firms, people work on the software of past generations and are not particularly worried about this.
  • region58
    region58 29 October 2015 18: 10
    +1
    Quote: i80186
    Imagine, but there are specialized microcircuits that will not be a processor at all, and can carry out encoding almost instantly.

    You can also recall the AVM (analog computers). The result is instant, though the accuracy is not very ... And as for video encoding ... enlighten me where it is used in the public and military sectors (is this a question for the Air Force reserve)?
    1. i80186
      i80186 29 October 2015 18: 48
      +1
      Quote: region58
      You can also recall the AVM (analog computers)

      There is nothing to remember here, our brain is an example of such a "device" smile
      1. VseDoFeNi
        VseDoFeNi 29 October 2015 19: 08
        -1
        Quote: i80186
        There is nothing to remember, our brain is an example of such a "device" smile

        A hundred billion neurons, each of which has up to ten thousand synapses, is that microcircuit for you. good
        1. i80186
          i80186 29 October 2015 19: 17
          0
          Quote: VseDoFeNi
          A hundred billion neurons, each of which has up to ten thousand synapses, is that microcircuit for you.

          Well, a smaller mosquito. And how it flies. The main principle. smile
        2. Azitral
          Azitral 29 October 2015 21: 49
          0
          The analogue of the microcircuit is, perhaps, a separate neuron. And the brain is a spatial network of such microcircuits. Interestingly, this device cannot be considered "electronic" or even "electrical" in general in our understanding. Translation from neuron to neuron is chemical. Otherwise we would be fatally "buggy" from every lightning nearby.
    2. Lt. Air Force stock
      Lt. Air Force stock 29 October 2015 19: 01
      -1
      Quote: region58
      enlighten me where it is used in the public and military sectors (is this a question for the Air Force reserve.)?

      This is not about the public sector, it was originally about the power of microchips, which are not enough for everything.
      1. region58
        region58 29 October 2015 19: 39
        +1
        Quote: Lt. air force reserve
        This is not about the public sector, it was originally about the power of microchips, which are not enough for everything.

        I will tell you more - there will always be a task for which any computer is not enough. But the point is that everything is supposedly bad with us, everything is fine with them, and that if we stick superprocessors everywhere, then happiness will come.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Nick
    Nick 29 October 2015 15: 23
    +3
    Quote: Lt. air force reserve
    If we compare Elbrus with Intel I7 6700K the choice will not be in our favor

    And the most annoying thing in this situation is that Intel Pentium was developed by domestic specialists.
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 29 October 2015 19: 03
      0
      Quote: Nick
      And the most annoying thing in this situation is that Intel Pentium was developed by domestic specialists.

      That's not true.
  • Irokez
    Irokez 29 October 2015 16: 20
    +3
    Quote: Lt. air force reserve
    If we compare Elbrus with Intel I7 6700K, the choice will not be in our favor.

    And recently, by the way, we also made the Baikal processor with us, so not everything is so bad in the Russian Empire.

    And about Elbrus, so who is stopping us from delivering systems based on this processor to the troops now, making servers and introducing them into the industry. Already, military beeches are on these processors and other devices that work quite normally. But for now, there is no alternative to Intel and AMD in large quantities, but these are mainly toys and media applications, and for typical work, ours is completely replaceable, and even with our Linix OS assembly. Everything rests on desire and a firm hand like Shoigu (Everywhere you go, you put things in order).
    1. VseDoFeNi
      VseDoFeNi 29 October 2015 16: 54
      0
      Quote: Irokez
      And about Elbrus, so who is stopping us from delivering systems based on this processor to the troops now, making servers and introducing them into the industry.

      The lack of mass production is in the way. Type piece expensive. But this is also fixable.

  • volot-voin
    volot-voin 29 October 2015 14: 44
    +6
    When all this developed with us. Bali Elbrus processors, computers the size of a room (our partners had no less), microcircuits from precious metals ...
    It's time to restore domestic electronics. What to invent and what to copy.
    1. Azitral
      Azitral 29 October 2015 21: 52
      0
      Anything - just do not restore !!! Say better, re-create, on a new organizational and (especially) technological basis.
  • sledge
    sledge 29 October 2015 14: 47
    +3
    Not everything is as simple as it seems
    1. volot-voin
      volot-voin 29 October 2015 14: 48
      +3
      Quote: Sanya
      Not everything is as simple as it seems

      And whoever said that it would be easy, the road will overpower the walking one.
    2. venaya
      venaya 29 October 2015 15: 09
      +1
      Quote: Sanya
      Not everything is as simple as it seems
      When will we overcome the dependence on the supply of electronic component base from the West? What does that require?

      After all, we had such an opportunity, and more recently. The Germans offered to build a turnkey plant. Local tycoons quarreled over where he should be in Moscow or St. Petersburg. So, here, we are falling through nonsense.
      1. a housewife
        a housewife 29 October 2015 18: 06
        +3
        In 1981, construction began in Novorossiysk Zd "Priboy", electronic. The scope was large - for several thousand jobs. They built their own microdistrict, a technical school, buildings were built. Specialists from all over the Union have arrived! The first recruited groups left for six months to study in Krasnodar, Velikiye Luki, Kaunas. All production was destroyed in the 90s! The squares were sold piece by piece. say, now something radio engineering is doing 1 small area, obviously everyday life. The rest is furniture, a shower for a summer residence and similar garbage! In Maikop, there was no such scope, as well as a military purpose, but it was also destroyed and sold. Personally, I am offended, I worked as a cable harness operator, then as a controller of radio electronic equipment. Since I went on maternity leave, there is no work for me. You go into the store - all foreign cars, rarely ours. Although I bought a wonderful Belarusian microwave. But she was alone in fifty models
      2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Starover_Z
      Starover_Z 29 October 2015 15: 47
      +3
      Quote: Sanya
      Not everything is as simple as it seems
      to users!
      I’m testing some service programs at work, as they say manual assembly, they are needed for work. So it’s not so easy for a programmer to grab a failing link even in his small program, not to mention specialized automated control systems that need to be written in large teams and dock all the modules into a workable system!
  • mishastich
    mishastich 29 October 2015 14: 47
    +6
    In the meantime, it seems that each Russian developer of IT technologies is brewed in its own sap, is not combined with other common goals, and does not see forests behind the trees. (C)

    It is, and frankly, nothing has changed so far. They write mathematics, but there are no PAKs (hardware and software systems). To get a development grant, you need to tear slightly.

    The regulatory framework will be postponed until the mess begins and it will be necessary to correct it.

    Regards and sadness.
  • yuriy55
    yuriy55 29 October 2015 14: 51
    +4
    The article is large and capacious. One thing is clear:
    To create your own electronic component base, you need at least money ...

    In order to create something, we need the knowledge of people and the desire of the state. While the state wants something overseas ... I would like it to turn to face Russian science and Russian scientists. And money, of course, plays an important role here.
    hi
  • Mama_Cholli
    Mama_Cholli 29 October 2015 14: 53
    +2
    In the 90 of the last century, he worked at a defense enterprise, collected r / a. At that time, only domestic microcircuits were used on the boards, not to mention resistors, etc. ....

    What has changed over the past time?

    Maybe it is in the operating system, and not in the components?
    1. venaya
      venaya 29 October 2015 15: 31
      +2
      Quote: Mama_Cholli
      Maybe it is in the operating system, and not in the components?

      There, special firmware is used. It is not easy to find it. They have worked on these issues for more than a decade, and have had significant success in installing all sorts of nasty things. This is a relatively new direction, you can fight only by producing components yourself, without "surprises", so far there is no other way.
      1. Mama_Cholli
        Mama_Cholli 29 October 2015 15: 38
        +1
        OK. Thank.
    2. Aleksey_K
      Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 15: 51
      0
      Quote: Mama_Cholli
      In the 90 of the last century, he worked at a defense enterprise, collected r / a. At that time, only domestic microcircuits were used on the boards, not to mention resistors, etc. ....

      What has changed over the past time?

      Maybe it is in the operating system, and not in the components?

      Both the operating system and the components matter. Over Yeltsin's years, all microelectronics have collapsed.
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 29 October 2015 16: 19
        +1
        Quote: Алексей_К
        Both the operating system and the components matter. Over Yeltsin's years, all microelectronics have collapsed.

        Here's how, you tell me, sideways operating system (which is the essence program, only large) refers to "microelectronics that was destroyed"?

        It would be very curious to understand belay
        1. Aleksey_K
          Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 18: 11
          0
          Quote: Cat Man Null
          Quote: Алексей_К
          Both the operating system and the components matter. Over Yeltsin's years, all microelectronics have collapsed.

          Here's how, you tell me, sideways operating system (which is the essence program, only large) refers to "microelectronics that was destroyed"?

          It would be very curious to understand belay

          When you minus, you first at least wait for clarifications. And then after all, your not knowledge is just illiteracy.
          The answer is a little rude, but quite accurate.
          Here is a laptop or PC, but there are smartphones. Both those and other types of computers. Try to install on your laptop or PC the operating system Android or Mobile Windows, which are designed for smartphones. This is the first sign that OSes are tied to microelectronics (microprocessors). You will not succeed.
          The second and most important thing. Russia does not have its own operating system for home computers.
          And there are no computers in Russia. All computers that are declared Russian are built on American chips or are made on licked outdated American chips.
          Therefore, the problem is in the components and in the operating systems - at the same time.
          1. region58
            region58 29 October 2015 18: 42
            +1
            Quote: Алексей_К
            Try to install on your laptop or PC the operating system Android or Mobile Windows, which are designed for smartphones. This is the first sign that OSes are tied to microelectronics (microprocessors). You will not succeed.

            This is you in your own words about the hardware and software platforms. Yes, there are many, and not all are compatible.
            Quote: Алексей_К
            Russia does not have its own operating system for home computers.

            Why do you need your own OS for household computers? I do not like Windows, use a unix-system, of which there are many.

            Quote: Алексей_К
            And there are no computers in Russia. All computers that are declared Russian are built on American chips or are made on licked outdated American chips.

            Well, you are completely in vain ...
          2. Cat man null
            Cat man null 29 October 2015 20: 16
            +2
            Quote: Алексей_К
            And then, after all, your not knowledge is just illiteracy

            Nu-nu .. illiteracy .. but how would I know, I’ve been dealing with all this trouble since 1988, and they have been redeeming money for me .. they’re strange, who are still laughing

            Quote: Алексей_К
            Try to install on your laptop or PC the operating system Android or Mobile Windows, which are designed for smartphones.

            - try to install wheels from Zaporozhets on KAMAZ (you just said it right now)
            - The android, by the way, is based on Linux. Which Linux remarkably gets up on PC and laptops
            - now there is an Android X86, which also gets up wonderfully on a PC and laptops

            Quote: Алексей_К
            OSes are tied to microelectronics (microprocessors)

            Exactly .. and the wheels from Zaporozhets are not intended for KAMAZ .. also to me, Newton’s bin ..

            About the rest, region58 correctly said everything to you, read it.

            Solids:

            - when the electronics were "torn apart", Russia no longer had its own OS, common. The EU OS has already been ripped off OS / 360. Next went DOS-s, half-axles, all different Windows.
            - the article that was discussed talked about the dangers of hardware "bugs". That is, about mines embedded in electronic components. Well, where does the OS, in general?

            By the way, the article was written by a person who absolutely does not own the subject. From the word at all. I'll find a dozen blunders without straining. But this is, as it were, "outside the scope" of our deeply scientific dispute.
  • Basarev
    Basarev 29 October 2015 14: 58
    +6
    The trouble is that the vast majority of the government is Westerners. They hope that soon the sanctions will be lifted, the price of oil will rise - and it will be possible to live as before, as in the fat three-year-old. In the meantime, to cover their losses at the expense of the most unprotected and unrequited. That is us.
  • Aleksandr2012
    Aleksandr2012 29 October 2015 15: 00
    0
    Quote: Mama_Cholli
    In the 90 of the last century, he worked at a defense enterprise, collected r / a. At that time, only domestic microcircuits were used on the boards, not to mention resistors, etc. ....

    What has changed over the past time?

    Maybe it is in the operating system, and not in the components?

    Everything has changed. During this time, microelectronics and technology have gone far ahead.
    1. Mama_Cholli
      Mama_Cholli 29 October 2015 15: 20
      0
      Well, yes, the televisions became flat and the mobiles became huge again ...
      1. EGOrkka
        EGOrkka 29 October 2015 15: 37
        0
        ...... there are no longer mobile phones .... but whole .... combines ... here and compare ... based on the totality of incoming systems. winked
        1. Mama_Cholli
          Mama_Cholli 29 October 2015 16: 48
          +3
          That's right, and the most valuable thing for them is the second camera, which allows you to capture your own stupidity for the whole world ...
          1. Aleksey_K
            Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 18: 24
            0
            Quote: Mama_Cholli
            That's right, and the most valuable thing for them is the second camera, which allows you to capture your own stupidity for the whole world ...

            You are not right. Everyone wants to have a big screen. Therefore, the size is growing. If the screen would virtually unfold in front of you in space or mentally in your head, then the smartphones would be the size of a battery or a little bit larger that is inside.
            In the 70s, the Japanese designed a wristwatch TV. So what? Do you carry this TV with you? Why not wear? Everything is simple - it is inconvenient to look at the microscopic screen.
            So you wrote nothing about stupidity. Do not want a large smartphone - buy a small one with a screen 3x4 see, they are less than 1000 rub. And you won’t even want to get into the Internet.
          2. EGOrkka
            EGOrkka 29 October 2015 18: 56
            0
            ... well, this is not a problem at all .... then ... your wife .... will tell you in great detail your ... punctures ... even those that did ... as you think, and not you wink
  • Modernwarfire
    Modernwarfire 29 October 2015 15: 05
    12 th
    when will we overcome ?? not very soon .. low bow to komunyaks who dubbed genetics, cybernetics, robotics - pseudoscience ... So we disentangle now. Donkeys ...
    1. Severomor
      Severomor 29 October 2015 15: 12
      +1
      Facts!!!! There is?

      Blyin, and soon the holidays are coming
    2. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    3. EGOrkka
      EGOrkka 29 October 2015 15: 40
      0
      .... yes Khrushchev with his ... frolicked ... and cybernetics and genetics .... "Michurintsi shitty."
      1. Severomor
        Severomor 29 October 2015 15: 58
        0
        Quote: EGOrkka
        .... yes Khrushchev with his ... frolicked ... and cybernetics and genetics .... "Michurintsi shitty."

        even as we frolic, we still wash ourselves.
        But how it started:
        1) In the USSR, MESM was launched at a time when in Europe there was only one computer - the English EDSAK, launched a year earlier. But the MESM processor was much more powerful due to the parallelization of the computing process. A similar EDSAC machine - TsEM-1 - was put into operation at the Institute of Atomic Energy in 1953 - but also surpassed EDSAK in a number of parameters.
        2) Built as a development of MESM, the new BESM computer in 1956 became the best in Europe. The International Center for Nuclear Research, established in Switzerland, used BESM machines for calculations. During the Soviet-American space flight Soyuz-Apollo, the Soviet side using BESM-6 received processed telemetry information in a minute - half an hour earlier than the American side.
        3) In 1958, the M-20 machine was launched, which became the fastest computer in the world, as well as the M-40 and M-50, which became the "cybernetic brain" of the Soviet missile defense system, created under the guidance of V.G. Kisunko and who shot down a real rocket in 1961 - the Americans could only repeat this after 23 years.

        "The decision of the USSR leadership to switch to the" monkey policy "made in 1967 was a disaster - to copy American computer technology, to launch into production an IBM-360 machine called the Unified System" Ryad "."
        1. venaya
          venaya 29 October 2015 16: 15
          +3
          Quote: Severomor
          "A disaster was the decision of the USSR leadership, made in 1967, to switch to the" monkey policy "- to copy American computers, to launch the IBM-360 into production

          I must note that at this moment Khrushchev is already "bye-bye." After the coup of 64, even more sophisticated and cunning came. Andropov, Henna Brezhnev, perhaps Brezhnev himself, did a lot of nasty things and prepared a coup for Humpbacked. Few people notice this, although back in the 70s I was already told that something was wrong. Quietly, quietly we were deceived. Now about this information in bulk.
          1. MrK
            MrK 29 October 2015 18: 36
            +1
            Quote: venaya
            "The decision of the USSR leadership to switch to the" monkey policy "made in 1967 was a disaster - to copy American computer technology, to launch into production an IBM-360 machine called the Unified System" Ryad "."


            I agree. But the decision was not taken by one Central Committee. The decision was made by a commission of the Central Committee of the CPSU together with the Academy of Sciences.
            1. venaya
              venaya 29 October 2015 18: 59
              +1
              Quote: mrark
              the decision was made by more than one Central Committee. The decision was made by a commission of the Central Committee of the CPSU together with the Academy of Sciences.

              You have a similar divine attitude towards the academy, I have a personal practice of communicating with both. Everything is very difficult, no one is able to express themselves honestly and frankly there, too much responsibility on everyone and everyone was afraid of everything, it was evident. There existed "corporate" relations, which everyone tries to keep silent about. I know of cases of other outright failures.
      2. 2s1122
        2s1122 29 October 2015 17: 06
        -1
        Yes, Khrushchev is not for you, it’s almost for you Gorbachov, they knew how to spoil what people did.
      3. Aleksey_K
        Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 18: 40
        +1
        Quote: EGOrkka
        .... yes Khrushchev with his ... frolicked ... and cybernetics and genetics .... "Michurintsi shitty."

        So it was mainly under Stalin that cybernetics, genetics, and Michurinians were. Khrushchev, by inertia, continued this Lysenkoism.
        Khrushchev became famous for the destruction of the army, he plundered aviation at the root. The design and manufacture of strategic aviation was slowed down for many years. It was with him that the aircraft carriers did not begin to build. Like rockets decide everything.
        Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine and halted the development of the Black Sea Fleet in the 90 and subsequent years. A bit of NATO did not settle in the Crimea.
        And the destruction of livestock in cities. It was he who cut the meat farming in the USSR.
        And the corn. He's just crazy. First I would compare the climate of America and Russia.
    4. Aleksey_K
      Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 15: 58
      +4
      Quote: ModernWarfire
      when will we overcome ?? not very soon .. low bow to komunyaks who dubbed genetics, cybernetics, robotics - pseudoscience ... So we disentangle now. Donkeys ...

      So those like you have christened. Pests from liberalism, traitors to the Motherland, hiding behind the guise of communists. Little Stalin shot. They climbed and destroyed the USSR and all industry, and now everything is blamed on normal communists. It was you who, in the 90 years, destroyed all industry and the army, ruined the state. Traitors are liberals!
      1. MrK
        MrK 29 October 2015 18: 39
        0
        Quote: Алексей_К
        Pests from liberalism, traitors to the Motherland, hiding behind the guise of communists. Little Stalin shot.

        Not often do I agree with Alexey_K. But in this case, I’m ready to put 1000 +. Alexey pointed to the main cause of all problems, including computer technology. Thank you so much.
    5. xBoris
      xBoris 29 October 2015 16: 13
      +4
      Well, the package No. 3 - Wali on the old boss - is over, no one canceled. Moreover, this is a win-win.
      But where did the "anti-communyak" government lead us ??
      What - live better than steel ?? Everyone’s houses appeared, salaries increased, poverty disappeared ..?
      Yes x .. pa with two !!
      Again, we feed communal homes, street children - no one can take it, beggars, homeless people, complete prostitution (and not corruption - call your own names!) Of the authorities .. !!
      - One word - Ah ... but got up !!!
      If it weren’t for the grandfathers who were still at the military factories, there would be nobody to do tanks and planes for.
    6. Irokez
      Irokez 29 October 2015 16: 44
      +3
      Quote: ModernWarfire
      a low bow to komunyaks who christened genetics, cybernetics, robotics - pseudoscience ... So we disentangle now. Donkeys ...

      Enough of blaming the past for the already far away present and looking into the future. And start tovarisch with the fact that change the avatar to a more positive one, let's say the smile of Gagarin or Zadornov. Start being an optimist, not a hopeless pessimist.
  • pimen
    pimen 29 October 2015 15: 08
    +1
    I can’t understand how an enemy signal can be sent to intel glonass if the system is autonomous and the Internet is cut off?
    1. Cube123
      Cube123 29 October 2015 15: 26
      +3
      A bunch of synchronization protocols, clock corrections, orbit corrections work ... All this is chasing between satellites and the earth. All this is handled by processors. If there is a bookmark, then by sending a signal with a specific sequence, you can make the processor recognize this sequence as a command for self-destruction. One to two transistors of hundreds of millions are burned and hello. It is impossible to replace it in space and the satellite in the trash. This is so, a fairy tale in which there is grain.
      1. pimen
        pimen 29 October 2015 15: 39
        +1
        and yet, you did not understand: the bookmark may be, but not letting it work is completely in our power (unless, of course, it’s just some date of its own internal counter)
        1. Cube123
          Cube123 29 October 2015 15: 47
          +2
          No, not completely in our power. If you do not know the code sequence, then trying to find it is akin to the task of selecting a password from thousands of characters. To create and implement such a bookmark is quite realistic. The Americans have already found something similar in microcircuits received from China.
          1. pimen
            pimen 29 October 2015 15: 55
            +1
            Quote: Cube123
            No, not completely in our power. If you do not know the code sequence, then trying to find it is akin to the task of selecting a password from thousands of characters. To create and implement such a bookmark is quite realistic. The Americans have already found something similar in microcircuits received from China.

            so do not look for it - it must be isolated. This is just an adjustment for incoming tasks.
            1. Cube123
              Cube123 29 October 2015 16: 03
              +2
              There is only one way to isolate a processor - turn off its power lol

              The problem is really very serious.
              You can not only disrupt the functioning of the chip, but even mechanically destroy it by a signal from the outside.
              http://technowars.ru/article/263/
              Quote: "The results of this work were demonstrated at the 'Wait, What?' Forum, held September 9-11, 2015 in St. Louis, USA. Xerox PARC engineers presented a chip that can self-destruct on command, which could revolutionize practical applications The chip can be used to store data, such as encryption keys, and, upon a signal from the outside, decay into thousands of particles, so small that it is impossible to recover. "
              The issue is not only intentional corruption, but also reliability:
              http://lenta.ru/articles/2011/11/09/counterfeit/
              1. pimen
                pimen 29 October 2015 16: 10
                +1
                Quote: Cube123
                There is only one way to isolate a processor - turn off its power lol

                Again I do not agree, my modest experience with Intel Celeron and XP quite plows itself without the Internet for years 10. Tell me how to break it from the side?
                1. Cube123
                  Cube123 29 October 2015 16: 24
                  +4
                  Yours only with the help of a virus. By the way, we heard that viruses have already been detected in the microcode of the hard drive controller. You can also control your computer using a special USB cable that goes to the printer. One and a half to two kilometers without the Internet and cable lines. The link breaks. In Google, type the request: "spy usb cable".
                  Those. someone replaced you with a cable, presented with a mouse, flash drive, keyboard ... And your computer is under complete control without the Internet and visible connections.

                  http://www.compromat.ru/page_34131.htm
                  "NSA Spy Directory" Bugs "for Firewalls, Servers, SIM Cards, USB, LAN and VGA Cables, iPhone Exploit"
                  1. pimen
                    pimen 29 October 2015 16: 32
                    0
                    here I am about the same thing, by the way, the system is also not connected to the printer, and the virus, if it is somewhere, does not detect itself
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                2. Aleksey_K
                  Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 18: 51
                  0
                  Quote: pimen
                  Quote: Cube123
                  There is only one way to isolate a processor - turn off its power lol

                  Again I do not agree, my modest experience with Intel Celeron and XP quite plows itself without the Internet for years 10. Tell me how to break it from the side?

                  Really you do not install any programs on this old computer? Can not be! The question is - why do you need it if you do not use it.
                  Probably still install any additional programs. So you get one-way communication with the outside world. Some program once, after turning on the computer, simply gradually erases everything on your computer in two minutes. You will not be able to understand, because everything in the background will pass.
              2. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Cat man null
        Cat man null 29 October 2015 16: 31
        +1
        Quote: Cube123
        A bunch of synchronization protocols, clock corrections, orbit corrections work.

        Exactly ...

        Quote: Cube123
        All this is handled by processors.

        Exactly ...

        Quote: Cube123
        All this is chasing between satellites and the earth

        Oh how .. chasing .. But it, an hour, not on the radio chasing?

        And if on it, darling, then you need to encode the radio signal through which the exchange is going. So that the enemy does not guess. And then the bookmark will sleep peacefully, always.

        Where am I mistaken?
        1. Cube123
          Cube123 29 October 2015 16: 46
          +2
          Any code is cracked. The only question is the time necessary for this. Accordingly, the seriousness of the task.
          In the book, Kevin Mitnik has a story about how students broke a card generator for a Black Jack slot machine. The sequence was pseudo-random and repeated over two billion combinations. But it turned out that having eight consecutively drawn cards, you can solve the linear equation and determine where in the sequence the machine is currently located. After that, you know in advance the entire sequence of cards on any number of moves forward. The guys earned several million until they were caught.
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 29 October 2015 17: 06
            0
            Quote: Cube123
            Any code is cracked. The only question is the time necessary for this. Accordingly, the seriousness of the task.

            Any code changes periodically. You can once a minute. You can more often.

            Tired of breaking.

            It is here that the specialists in radio encryption are already needed. And better - they are not needed, otherwise they will say something else ... such a thread .. secret ..

            Nafignado No.
            1. Cube123
              Cube123 29 October 2015 18: 14
              +1
              Everything is simpler. There is a law of nature: What is created by one can always be broken by the other.
              There are asymmetric hacking methods. As they say, the most effective way to crack a password is a soldering iron in the ass. Or find a person who is ready to sell the results of someone else's work for a green card. Have you not heard here the recent story of a stolen hard drive with closed GLONASS data at the developer institute? http://lifenews.ru/news/158163
    2. Strezhevchanin
      Strezhevchanin 29 October 2015 15: 35
      +1
      Quote: pimen
      I can’t understand how an enemy signal can be sent to intel glonass if the system is autonomous and the Internet is cut off?

      No idea, can we bring down it will be easier ??? Not??? What can be sewn into stone so that it is imperceptible?
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 29 October 2015 15: 44
        -5
        Tales are all about signals on chips and self-destructive circuits - they check everything before installing it on equipment.
        1. Aleksey_K
          Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 18: 57
          +1
          Quote: Vadim237
          Tales are all about signals on chips and self-destructive circuits - they check everything before installing it on equipment.

          Neither who nor what does not check. No one knows that the developers of microcircuits, where millions of transistors, have laid in their electrical circuits. Only Americans, yes, and then only developers and their special services employers.
    3. Aleksey_K
      Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 16: 02
      0
      Quote: pimen
      I can’t understand how an enemy signal can be sent to intel glonass if the system is autonomous and the Internet is cut off?

      Who told you that? Spit in the eyes. But how do you think Glonass works? How does he communicate with devices? Or is this, in your opinion, a silent box flying in space?
      1. pimen
        pimen 29 October 2015 16: 24
        +2
        Do you think that GLONASS works internally via the Internet?
        1. Aleksey_K
          Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 19: 00
          0
          Quote: pimen
          Do you think that GLONASS works internally via the Internet?

          No, not via the Internet, but through radio signals. And it’s even easier to intercept and change the satellite and Glonass control commands.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Cat man null
        Cat man null 29 October 2015 16: 34
        +2
        Quote: Алексей_К
        So do you think Glonass works? How does he communicate with devices?

        Does he communicate with enemy devices, or with "his" all the same?
        1. Aleksey_K
          Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 19: 03
          0
          Quote: Cat Man Null
          Quote: Алексей_К
          So do you think Glonass works? How does he communicate with devices?

          Does he communicate with enemy devices, or with "his" all the same?

          He communicates with stations on earth. The Americans even refused to install these stations in America. If the Russians can control, then why not the Americans to crack this system? I would be in their place day and night to do this.
          1. Cat man null
            Cat man null 29 October 2015 21: 21
            0
            Quote: Алексей_К
            Etc.

            Alexey, please answer one simple question:

            - the stations with which the GLONASS satellite communicates - who are they under control? "Our" or "the enemy"?

            And then you all somehow leave to the side .. strictly opposite Occam's razor laughing
  • imugn
    imugn 29 October 2015 15: 14
    +2
    We can add to the article that the Moscow Region does not recommend the use of Belarusian components, while it distributes licenses to the second suppliers left and right, who without problems make certificates and EPs for imported components. Often, it is easier to buy imports than to agree with domestic manufacturers on the delivery of a complete set with VP
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Modernwarfire
    Modernwarfire 29 October 2015 15: 18
    -4
    Quote: Severomor
    Facts!!!! There is?

    Blyin, and soon the holidays are coming

    Is that fact enough, schoolboy?
    The bourgeois press widely advertised a new science - cybernetics. This fashionable false theory, put forward by a group of American "scientists", claims to solve all the core scientific problems and to save humanity from all social disasters. Cybernetic affection has gone through various branches of knowledge: physiology, psychology, sociology, psychiatry, linguistics, etc. According to cybernetics, the reason for the creation of their pseudoscience was the similarity between the human brain and modern complex machines.
    - Yaroshevsky M. “Cybernetics - the“ science ”of obscurantists, Literary Newspaper, 1952, April 5. No. 42 (2915), p. 4

    More facts, or will you look for it yourself)?
    1. Mama_Cholli
      Mama_Cholli 29 October 2015 15: 25
      +3
      Son, you yourself still play such a thing as the name of the game in tune with your nickname.
      Self-respecting adults prefer to play Battlefield or chess ...
      Lulu march ... premature.
    2. yuriy55
      yuriy55 29 October 2015 15: 31
      +3
      Frankly, Mikhail Grigoryevich Yaroshevsky, a Soviet psychologist, science historian, methodologist and philosopher, knew cybernetics like Nikita Sergeyevich did in corn cultivation. Is it possible to take seriously his work, in which he takes apart concepts that are not characteristic of his activities?
    3. Aleksey_K
      Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 16: 07
      +5
      Quote: ModernWarfire
      According to cybernetics, the reason for the creation of their pseudoscience was the similarity between the human brain and modern complex machines.

      Have you ever seen somewhere a computer with a processor similar to the human brain? There are none and will not be for a long time. Do you know why? Because scientists still don’t know how our brain works. And they just suggest, poking the electrodes in one or another place in the skull, that there seems to be something here where you can get some strange electrical signals.
      1. Streich
        Streich 29 October 2015 16: 54
        -1
        The top of brain knowledge is the removal of phantom pains. This is a very scary thing - for example, there is no hand, but it hurts. So, a hole is drilled in the head, an electrode is inserted and what is not amputated with an electric pulse. And there is no pain. For more ............
  • Streich
    Streich 29 October 2015 15: 23
    +1
    Please tell me, those who write these articles with permission, are you a professional in the field of electronics, molecular electronic architectonics, or at least a high-order system programmer. How can one judge such an object, well, if only to talk. Military acceptance is very serious. By the way, the Pentium was developed by an engineer from Russia, though he left for the USA. Even the name is his last name.
    1. shinobi
      shinobi 29 October 2015 15: 32
      +2
      I completely agree. Similar opuses are written as a rule by people who even did not see our hardware closely.
    2. Alexander_
      Alexander_ 29 October 2015 16: 06
      +1
      It is categorically impossible to trust the development of serious things to one person, there must be a team, at least for mutual safety against implicit errors, and for the safety of the results.
  • Lumumba
    Lumumba 29 October 2015 15: 27
    +1
    500 thousand for a performance of 12.5 teraflops it's a breakthrough. This is really cheap.

    For comparison, a "home" computer on the currently best "top-end" hardware has a performance of no more than ~ 0.5 teraflops.

    Another thing is that our processor has a fundamentally different architecture, close to the architecture of GPUs and it is necessary to port the source codes of programs for it.

    Now, if they ever port ReactOS to our architecture, then the situation with the Microsoft monopoly will radically change.
    1. Mama_Cholli
      Mama_Cholli 29 October 2015 15: 31
      +1
      Microsoft and so-so dug the grave with its new 10koy.
      Of all my friends, only one switched to it, three have already switched to Linux from Windows.
      One explains the transition of Windows brakes, especially when it comes to its corporate use.
      "We will soon see" the development of the situation ...
      1. Aleksey_K
        Aleksey_K 29 October 2015 19: 09
        0
        Quote: Mama_Cholli
        Microsoft and so-so dug the grave with its new 10koy.
        Of all my friends, only one switched to it, three have already switched to Linux from Windows.
        One explains the transition of Windows brakes, especially when it comes to its corporate use.
        "We will soon see" the development of the situation ...

        I tried stupidly. And regretted it. Some licensed programs stopped working, began to require reinstallation, as well as some free (not pirated) ones. He returned to 7-ku, but many errors did not resolve. Still disintegrating.
    2. region58
      region58 29 October 2015 18: 29
      0
      Quote: Lumumba
      close to GPU architecture

      GPUs have other tasks ... for example, multiplying matrices in parallel is easy, that's why video cards have dofigisa kernels: multiplying matrices is one of the main operations.
      Quote: Lumumba
      500 thousand for a performance of 12.5 teraflops is a breakthrough.

      NVIDIA Tegra X1 - the first mobile processor with a capacity of 1 teraflops ... this is from advertising ...
  • Rostislav
    Rostislav 29 October 2015 15: 36
    +2
    In the meantime, it seems that every Russian developer of IT-technologies is brewed in its own juice, not combined with other common goals and does not see the wood behind the trees.

    The article is needed, pain points are correctly marked, but blame the developers for the allowed mess in the system?
    It is necessary to answer for the devastation, but hasn't the language turned to reproach the leadership of the branches? Only narrow-minded developers who "don't see the forest for the trees"?
    I barely put a good article in my hearts just because of one last phrase!
  • shinobi
    shinobi 29 October 2015 15: 39
    +4
    After the events of 2008, the Russian Federation abandoned GPS and began to deploy GLONASS. A question to such scribblers, why, oh, such mighty USA didn’t drop our "Calibers" on the way to Syria and cannot bring down navigation from the glonas of our bombers? in what horror our electronic warfare leads them.
  • purple
    purple 29 October 2015 15: 44
    +3
    Quote: Lt. Air Force stock
    Quote: EGOrkka
    Elbrus is made purely for defense. .... and the benefits ... correspond to the task!

    And in the defense industry that compact powerful processors are not needed?

    Elbrus are powerful enough, no need to talk nonsense, architectures are generally different, on a number of tasks elbrus tears any intel into rags
  • Modernwarfire
    Modernwarfire 29 October 2015 15: 45
    -8
    Quote: Mama_Cholli
    Son, you yourself still play such a thing as the name of the game in tune with your nickname.
    Self-respecting adults prefer to play Battlefield or chess ...
    Lulu march ... premature.

    I’ve been eating your sprat, nigga!
    You forgot to ask what to play) March on the plantation, slave!
  • anfil
    anfil 29 October 2015 15: 59
    +1
    The GLONASS system uses American Intel, which means it is vulnerable in wartime. There is no guarantee that no special signal will arrive on board the satellite from overseas.


    Do you have any specialists? They can confirm this, otherwise we will agree that the bolts and nuts produced in the fascington in the hour "H" will unwind by themselves and all the equipment will sort it out and gather into the cyborgs of the killers.
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 29 October 2015 16: 39
      +1
      Quote: anfil
      Do you have any specialists? They can confirm this, otherwise we will agree that the bolts and nuts produced in the fascington in the hour "H" will unwind by themselves and all the equipment will sort it out and gather into the cyborgs of the killers.

      One hundred pluses ..

      The GLONASS system uses American Intel, which means it is vulnerable in wartime. There are no guarantees that per hour h overseas not a special signal will arrive on board the satellite.

      From overseas, a "special signal" will come on board the satellite only in one case - if "overseas" somehow managed to get into the satellite's radio exchange with the Earth.

      And this is no longer a problem of "bookmarks" - it is a problem of ensuring the secrecy of radio exchange.
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  • Domino45
    Domino45 29 October 2015 16: 03
    +2
    That's where import substitution is needed, and first of all.
  • HAM
    HAM 29 October 2015 16: 12
    +4
    In the 90s, because of the capacitors of the KM series, how many radio equipment were ditched (the buyers bought them for grams)! The current Chinese and other KM-kams are not suitable. I wonder if the Belarusian "Integral" is alive ??
    1. region58
      region58 29 October 2015 18: 54
      +2
      Quote: HAM
      In the 90s, because of the KM series capacitors, how many radio equipment were ditched (buyers bought them for grams)!

      Yeah, the ads wrote: I’ll buy a VM-12, a buyer came, agreed on a price, then the VCR was sorted out, KMki bit out and the stunned owner was asked to throw out the rest ... smile
      And how many normal industrial equipment was ditched ... tears in his eyes were welling up looking at all this ...
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 29 October 2015 16: 18
    +1
    No matter how long ago everything has been invented and is. Simply, each of the players is trying to pull the blanket over himself. Here, of course, it all depends on government agencies, they should quickly determine the rules. Well, or at least choose the winners and give them everything.
  • EvgNik
    EvgNik 29 October 2015 17: 07
    +1
    ""In addition, the model for the control system cannot be general, since there is still no single idea of ​​what to take as a basis.""
    For military women - one model, for the people - another. But by no means is it shtatovskaya. We have our own morality, our own preferences. And we don’t need to force someone else’s morality into us.
  • Burmistr
    Burmistr 29 October 2015 17: 12
    0
    need a ministry, anyway
  • anfil
    anfil 29 October 2015 17: 22
    +1
    Military space is not for us


    That's right ... we’ll develop our MacroFac with Wi-Fi and Blueup.
    But I just don’t understand, if everything is so bad, why countries buy military equipment from each other and why does not India announce the hour “H” after all, most of the electronics are developed by them? So not everything is as bad as it is often presented here.
    1. sa-ag
      sa-ag 29 October 2015 18: 25
      0
      Quote: anfil
      Why do countries buy military equipment from each other and why does not India announce the hour "H" after all, most of the electronics are of their design?

      The first Iraqi company, and installations with Exocet suddenly stop working in Iraq (if I'm not mistaken)
  • The comment was deleted.
  • a housewife
    a housewife 29 October 2015 18: 24
    0
    Inadvertently put a plus in the wrong place, I mean this, who dismissed his dirty tongue. So there should be -5 there too. negative
  • Russian_German
    Russian_German 29 October 2015 18: 25
    +2
    Quote: Vadim237
    What can be sewn into stone so that it is imperceptible?

    Quote: Vadim237
    Tales are all about signals on chips and self-destructive circuits - they check everything before installing it on equipment.

    Microcodes are sewn into the stone for its operation.
    Microcodes were introduced into the processors to enable software correction of conversion errors and execution of x86 system commands in RISC uops. To avoid recalling processors with a detected problem, manufacturers began to use downloadable microcodes.

    As you can see, there are downloadable microcodes, but there are tightly sewn ones. They are needed for the processor itself to work with ALU (arithmetic logic device), registers, cache memory, data buses and instructions. Bookmarks in the form of micro-commands themselves may not be a program, but a link to a sequence of libraries implementing a malicious program, but they may also be a program. Really embedded microcode can easily destroy the processor. And you can run it not only over the air, as Cat Man Null writes, if the processor has a special sensor, of course, and I think this is not a problem for the USA. Something like this approximately.
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 29 October 2015 20: 55
      +1
      Thank you, you have very clearly and correctly set out everything.

      Quote: Russian_German
      And you can run it not only over the air as Cat Man Null writes

      I didn’t write about that. And that whole the exchange of commands between the satellite (on which the same processor is standing) and the Earth goes on the radio. And correspondingly, there is no other way to transmit a malicious command - no. In addition, for this, the pest must creep into the radio exchange between the MCC and the satellite. And this exchange is by definition (simply obliged to be) protected.

      Quote: Russian_German
      if a special sensor is built into the processor, of course

      Question: sensor of what? Sound? Sveta? Thermal radiation? Kill me against the wall - I can’t imagine such a sensor that it could be from Earth directly send the command into orbit.
    2. Dryulea
      Dryulea 29 October 2015 21: 04
      0
      Something similar we already had, somewhere in the 70s, either processors or computers entirely were purchased from mattresses. They worked for a normally defined time, and then began to break. When they began to understand the reasons, it turned out sabotage in the MP
      1. Cat man null
        Cat man null 29 October 2015 21: 27
        +1
        Quote: Dryula
        Something similar we already had, somewhere in the 70s, either processors or computers entirely were purchased from mattresses. They worked for a normally defined time, and then began to break. When they began to understand the reasons, it turned out sabotage in the MP

        This is not quite right.

        It was about the fact that in the event of a war, GLONASS will break. Because the cunning and evil Americans:

        1. Put in the percent of the computer that is on the satellite, "bookmark"
        2. They have the ability to activate it at any time (and not "by timer", as you described)
        3. Somehow managed to get into the satellite control and activated the bookmark

        I have no doubt about possibilities 1 and 2. 3 for me - the most important question.

        hi
  • Oprychnik
    Oprychnik 29 October 2015 18: 50
    -3
    Well, well, well. It is clear that we have lagged behind in all respects. And where do we have so much advertised "scientific companies" with bespectacled people who want to pay back their debt to the Motherland? :)))
  • There are a lot of us
    There are a lot of us 29 October 2015 19: 26
    0
    In fact, "Senikhin" is Vladimir Sergeevich Semenikhin, the author should have known. I hope this is just a typo ...
  • Anisim1977
    Anisim1977 29 October 2015 19: 28
    0
    I don’t understand a damn about it - but at the same price or not much more expensively, I’ll be happy to buy our computer and OS. Soon to change ...
    1. Vasilenko Vladimir
      Vasilenko Vladimir 30 October 2015 08: 26
      0
      Quote: Anisim1977
      I will buy both our computer and OS

      in any case, do not overturn for the OS, besides the operating system you still need software, and these are not only test editors
  • Dryulea
    Dryulea 29 October 2015 21: 12
    -2
    As for superiority in radio electronics- In the mid-80s, during an urgent, fate pushed me with one colonel. He told such a story about the first satellite — its launch was delayed due to the fact that the semiconductors were not ready. He himself took part in the development of these semiconductors, told how crystals were grown. I don’t remember anymore - 30 years have passed
  • TOR2
    TOR2 29 October 2015 21: 21
    +2
    The order of the Ministry of Industry and Trade was issued in April, and money, even for priority development of electronic components, has not been allocated to anyone, according to Narkhov.

    Therefore, the result is as follows. There are five largest manufacturers of electronic components in the Russian Federation. With five money it is quite possible to find, as well as to monitor the progress of work.
    Why are prices for domestic products high? One of the reasons - the lack of mass production, comparable to foreign. In Russia, practically no electronic equipment is being made for national economic use, household appliances, medical equipment, etc., on domestic components. And the market for such products is relatively small to expand mass production.

    Here the author has hit the most painful point. Our military-industrial complex does not like to engage in the production of civilian products, and this will be done only by order. For example, in addition to electronic warfare equipment, it would be nice to start the production of domestic tomographs, as well as panoramic car recorders capable of "seeing" in conditions of disgusting illumination. There are many examples, only civilian devices should be no worse than imported ones. Then it is possible to increase the output of the element base.
    1. Andryukha
      Andryukha 30 October 2015 06: 54
      0
      Only private developers will be engaged in this, because this is a completely different specificity. Military factories will not pull out to release a new model every year. And so that everything develops intensively, you need to turn around oh how quickly, and not according to the year, approve the specification for the transistor.
  • Straight
    Straight 29 October 2015 21: 26
    0
    "We'll buy everything for oil" is not a mistaken message, but a deliberate sabotage and betrayal of the Motherland. The main result is technological lag and population extinction. There is no need to build naive simpletons out of them ... naive simpletons, it's you and me.
    1. Andryukha
      Andryukha 30 October 2015 07: 03
      0
      In hindsight it is easy to speak.
      Here, imagine: there is a path in a dense forest. Branches, merges, where it is not known.
      In the swamp? To the den? Well, where is your competent strategy to come to oil fields?
  • Vasisualiy
    Vasisualiy 29 October 2015 23: 14
    +3
    I would like to ask the tovarische on what computers did the Buran fly? What language did he speak? Who wrote the programs?
    Yakovlev, labeled Judah and other agents of the West had a task. And performed.

    But ... there is no Stalin ...
  • leon1204id
    leon1204id 29 October 2015 23: 32
    -2
    That's it to the point. 5 with a plus article. good
    And everything is connected with the bureaucracy, which cannot look in perspective, he does not have a perspective free from another official!
    Robert Bartini in the 30s came to Beria and put on the table a draft of a jet aircraft with a swept wing and said that the plane would fly faster than sound. Beria said "work" and thought Bartini was crazy all his life and did not let him turn, and the following rulers. .... Bartini! They say he asked all his papers to be sealed in a zinc box and opened in 2197! smile
  • NordUral
    NordUral 29 October 2015 23: 57
    0
    But if we talk about global import substitution in the national economy, the conclusion is disappointing: we are physically unable to create complete chains of electronics production. This is the point of view of the representative of Svyaz Engineering Alexey Morozov. According to him, for this it is necessary to have five percent of the world market.
    . This is not necessary at all. Only need to combine market and national economic (defense) planning principles.
    It must be clearly understood that they will not let us win the market, even less than the mentioned percentages. And proceed from this fact in their actions.
    And independence in the defense industry is worth forgetting about profits altogether.
    And closer to the topic. I think it’s time for us to put forward a program in this direction according to the principle that the Stapes performed on the flight to the moon. And complete it in a short time.
  • magician
    magician 30 October 2015 00: 02
    0
    Quote: VseDoFeNi
    So the Communist Party back in the 60s decided to reduce the development of the same logic, copying it from the US 155 and 176 series a copy of the Aybiem logic.

    Here I do not agree with you, open any reference on TTL microcircuits of the 155 series analog 74 and compare the composition, also with the 176 CMOS series, a close analogue of the 40 series (561 domestic).
  • Andryukha
    Andryukha 30 October 2015 06: 51
    0
    Quote: Asadullah
    that he is far from the topic

    I also have the feeling that the author is more likely a manager or a PS programmer who "studied the issue of microcircuits on the Internet" and talked about it with friends over a glass of tea.
    He ultimately drives LibreOffice, but what does micro electronics have to do with it?
  • linadherent
    linadherent 30 October 2015 07: 52
    0
    No, what amateurs do not reach, arguing on topics that they generally don’t understand! 1) Programming a microprocessor is a fantasy, it does not have its own memory, so the program simply has nowhere to store, although there is one signal that is guaranteed to turn off any processor, this is a strong electromagnetic pulse. Typically, these occur during the explosion of nuclear weapons, but only in this case, ALL processors that receive this signal and the American ones are not an exception will turn off.
    2) Found software bookmarks in OS Windows and Linux? I won’t argue about Windows, everyone who is connected with computers knows that Microsoft works with the NSA, in the 95th version of Windows it was even called the registry key, but about linuh ... Does the author even imagine what Linux is? And the fact that his favorite OS Elbrus is also Linux, is that how?
    3) Creating an operating system from scratch, in our time, simply does not make sense, remember that Windows started with MS DOS in 1981, and the Windows that we use now in 1984 with OS / 2. Even a giant like Aple, when developing their Mac OS X, simply screwed the mach microkernel to OS FREE BSD ...
    1. region58
      region58 30 October 2015 10: 15
      0
      Quote: linadherent
      Microprocessor programming is a fantasy, it does not have its own memory

      The most common are PIC, AVR.
  • Massik
    Massik 30 October 2015 08: 38
    +1
    One has only to want - you can fly into space. If you still close the border with a "big iron lock", along with all the pipelines ... Whether you like it or not, you have to somehow get out - in 5-10 years everything will appear at once ...
  • Wolka
    Wolka 30 October 2015 08: 39
    0
    the nation-wide problem is indicated correctly, some solutions are also proposed, it remains for the small - to draw up legislation and ensure adequate financing without delaying ...
  • bashkort
    bashkort 30 October 2015 09: 47
    0
    Mdya, about this a lot of things have been written, and, for a long time. We have so many talented programmers, engineers, physicists, chemists, really can not, relying on the already well-known Western counterparts, coax for the military, something, even oak, but not to be killed? For butting with NATO - that's it!
  • linadherent
    linadherent 30 October 2015 10: 44
    0
    Quote: region58
    The most common are PIC, AVR.

    Dear, do not confuse God's gift with fried eggs, the microcontrollers you listed are not processors !!! fool
  • linadherent
    linadherent 30 October 2015 10: 48
    0
    Quote: bashkort
    We have so many talented programmers, engineers, physicists, chemists, really can not, relying on the already well-known Western counterparts, coax for the military, something, even oak, but not to be killed? For butting with NATO - that's it!

    I'm afraid to disappoint you, but not killed is impossible in principle ... negative
  • Oleko
    Oleko 31 October 2015 09: 41
    0
    Quote: tolancop

    tolancop
    (1)

    29 October 2015 20: 11

    ↑ ↓


    Minus players !!! I have never found fault with the USSR and will not: I was born in it, grew up and received an education. But this does not mean that I do not remember anything and will shout continuous "approvals". The level of electronics was high, but generally inferior to the bourgeoisie. And much depends on the criteria for assessing the level. A simple example: a team of developers came up with something that has no analogues in the world. Great ?! No words, great !!! Only after the victorious banquet it turns out that no one undertakes to do this unparalleled piece (it is unprofitable, does not want to, does not have the physical ability - without a border). Oh, and where is the general delight ?! Okay, found with half a sin, the one who nevertheless embodies the notion in iron. Hurray again ?! Hooray!!! and Again, until it turns out that the idea will not go into the series ... So we arrived ... They could do unique things, but they did not always reach the end user. And this is the cutting edge
    .
    It was said that intelligence mined chips in the United States. The Institute of Communications of the Ministry of Defense removed layers with a laser. The technical documentation was transferred to Svetlana. They couldn't do it there.