Military Review

And again about the heroes and falsifiers

73
And again about the heroes and falsifiers



Official история Britain’s participation in World War II spans dozens of volumes, although the efforts of the British in all theaters of operations are unlikely to be even one fifth of ours. In this case, the main military secret of England - the fact that the Second World War was provoked by the Anglo-Saxons and they also activated it, remains, of course, between the lines.

But even in the history of the Great Patriotic War not all pages were read, and above all the reasons for our failure in the summer of 1941 were shrouded in mist. Military historians stubbornly ignore a number of strange facts or superficially explain them. Vacuum is filled by authors like Suvorov-Rezun, Mark Solonin, Boris Sokolov and others like them. They paint the 1941 picture of the year with exclusively black colors, using either Goebbels’s well-worn myths, or inventing new ones.

As much as I, like a number of other researchers, try to counteract the detractors of the history of war and understand the incomprehensibilities of the 1941 of the year from the standpoint of the Soviet patriot. The result was, in particular, my books “10 Myths about 1941 Year” and “Myths about 1945 Year”, published under the pseudonym “Sergey Kremlev”. That is why it was annoying and offensive to read the article by Rear Admiral Radiy Anatolyevich Zubkov “Military history helplessness or hidden falsification”, published in No. 34 “NVO” and devoted to the criticism of my article “Secrets of War remain secrets”, published in No. 24 “NVO” .

Dear Radiy Anatolyevich claims that individual historians and researchers, among whom he probably includes me, "instead of revealing secrets and debunking the myths of the past war" are carrying out latent falsification. In particular, regarding the fact that readiness number 1 is on fleets - not a personal initiative of the People's Commissar of the Navy Kuznetsov.

Perhaps here we must talk about a misunderstanding, because there are not one among the Soviet warlords of the war, except for figures such as General of the Army Pavlov, to whom I would not feel deep respect already because they dragged the "war" of the war without sparing and your belly. This also applies to the Navy Commissar Nikolai Gerasimovich Kuznetsov.

However, the Soviet commanders during the war had enough sins, and their main sin, which very few did not fall into, and above all, Marshal Rokossovsky and Marshal aviation Golovanov consists in protecting his Supreme from Khrushchev's insinuations. The latter claimed that Stalin-de was leading the fronts either on the globe, or on a map shoved in the boot of his boot. This stubborn insecurity is hardly explained only by the fear of Khrushchev's "monarchy disfavor." Rather, it seems like a conspiracy of conspiracy of silence. Not without reason in the last pre-war week to this day there are many ambiguities, starting with the fact that the sources stubbornly emphasize that the People’s Commissar Tymoshenko and the NSSh Zhukov on June 14 asked Stalin to authorize the putting the troops on combat alert, but he did not agree. But there were June 15th, and the 16th, and so on ... Why, then, the People's Commissar and the NHS, seeing the increase in tension, did not ask Stalin's consent again? This question begs itself!

And - not he alone ...

Well, you have to ask questions again, something further explaining and analyzing. After all, this is not about personal ambitions, more and more seriously and substantially.

OVER WHAT WE LAUGH


Admiral Zubkov declares that I, “inventing a secret from creating a front-line command post in the Kiev Special Military District in Ternopil (South-Western Front),” makes readers “laugh” at my alleged “concern about the absence of such command posts in other districts.” But here is an exact quotation from my article: “And what is it - KOVO was ordered to deploy field control of the district (that is, already, actually, the front), but ZOVOV was not? Urgent instructions came to Kirponos in Kiev by the second half of 19 June, but didn’t they have time to Pavlov to Minsk and to June 21?

Let me disbelieve! ”

Where is the concern about the absence of PCF in other districts? On the contrary, the construction of the quotation itself shows that I meant a general order to all districts. I mentioned the deployment of the PCF only in KOVO because information about it, to which I referred, appeared in Soviet literature, but not in the official history of the war. Admiral Zubkov further writes: “After all, those who read“ Memories and Reflections ”by Zhukov (volume 1, edition 1995 of the year, p. 361 – 362) know that the front command posts were located: the North-Western Front - in the Panevezys area, Western - near Obuz-Lesny, South-West - in Ternopil, Southern - in Tiraspol. ”

That's right, and when I wrote my article, I, of course, knew this — to be convinced of this, it is enough to read my books. But does Admiral Zubkov know who quotes the publication of GK memoirs? Zhukov 1995 (!!) of the year, that there was no information about the location of the PCF in any lifetime edition of the book! Marshal passed away on 18 on June 1974 of the year, and 26 on March of 1974 of the year was put into set the second, enlarged edition of his memoirs, which is the latest authentic. So there on the page of 264 it is only briefly mentioned that “approximately in 24 hours of 21 of June, the commander of the Kiev district, M.P. Kirponos, who was at his command post in Ternopil, reported on HF ... ”and so on. And on pages 264 – 265 of this edition it is said that on that night Tymoshenko and Zhukov, returning from the Kremlin, “repeatedly spoke on HF with the commanders of the districts ... and their chiefs of staff who were at their command posts”. That's all there is to the KP constituencies in the 1974 edition of the year, the text of which can still be considered exactly Zhukovsky. In the posthumous editions, including the 1995 edition of the year to which Admiral Zubkov refers, there is reason to assume additional notes.

Moreover, the “lifetime” Zhukov, as well as in the memoirs of the People's Commissar of the Navy, also not all ends meet in the description of the last peaceful days. Thus, in the very first edition of 1971, “Memories and Reflections,” on page 235, it also says that the People's Commissar of Defense and the National Security Service spoke with district commanders on “the last peaceful night”, but there were commanders “at the command posts of the fronts”. As we see, in the second lifetime edition, the seditious word "fronts" was removed, which is understandable. God forbid someone inadvertently thinks - how is it? How could it be that, on the eve of the war, the front command posts were deployed, if, allegedly because of Stalin’s stupidity, the district troops were peacefully sleeping in pants?

Yes, when you begin to analyze these memoirs, and other memoirs, as well as declassified documents, you don’t have to laugh, but it often turns out that it’s time to cry. One system of mobilization sunduring packages for the notorious "cover plan" is worth something! It would be possible, of course, to laugh at this idea of ​​the General Staff: in the era of a dynamic, mobile war, write in advance what kind of units should move after the outbreak of hostilities. But the tears of evil impotence are more appropriate here ...

And millions of rifles, for some reason stored at the western borders, although it was clear that in the area of ​​their storage millions of recruits could not be found? Not without reason a number of researchers are now writing not only about negligence, but about the direct betrayal of some of the generals. I note in parentheses that, referring to the behavior of the Soviet generals in 1991 and 1993, or by reading, for example, the excellent book by Major-General Peter Alekseevich Teremov, “Burning shores” of the 1965 publication of the year, you can believe in such a betrayal.

But now it is not about that, but about the reliability of the same memoirs of the People's Commissar of the Navy N.G. Kuznetsova in the beginning of the war. I will not occupy the newspaper space, but simply suggest that the readers themselves carefully compare the time and circumstances of the transfer to the fleets of the order on readiness number 1, given by Admiral Zubkov according to the memoirs of the People's Commissar and according to the documents referred to by Admiral Zubkov. I will only draw attention to the fact that Kuznetsov said that he, having sent a telegram to the fleets, also decided to personally call the commanders, starting from the Baltic Fleet, from Tributs, and then immediately spoke with the Northern Fleet, with Golovko. Then Kuznetsov, he said, spoke on the phone with the chief of staff of the Black Sea Fleet Eliseev. According to the documents, the Baltic Fleet was verbally notified to the People's Commissar on 23.37 21 in June, and the Northern Fleet - on the radio, and only on 0.56 on June 22, 79 minutes after the Baltic Fleet. On the Black Sea, readiness No. 1 - according to the documents - was announced at all in 1.15, that is, 98 minutes after the Baltic Fleet.

What and who to believe?

What to laugh at and what to cry about?

ONCE AGAIN ABOUT SEVASTOPOL

Admiral Zubkov states that I allegedly “tried to express doubt” that Kuznetsov’s order played a significant role in increasing the combat readiness of the Navy, and that I’m expressing a “pejorative ... assessment of the actions of the People's Commissar of the Navy with the words" the fleets turned out to be more or less attacked by the Germans less willing ... ".

However, I did not even think about any derogation of the value of the order of the People's Commissar of the Navy, and, noting the relative readiness of the fleets, I meant only that it favorably distinguished fleets from the army.

On the other hand, Admiral Zubkov himself questioned the fact that the notes of the participant in the defense of Sevastopol, captain 1 of the rank A.K. Yevseyev, where information is reported that is badly consistent not only with the memoirs of the People's Commissar, but also with official documents. They are stored in the Central Naval Archive (f. 2, op. 1, d. 315, l. 6 – 126), but I am familiar with them from the collection “The Hidden Truth of War: 1941 Year. Unknown documents ”(M .: Russian book, 1992, p. 327 – 337). So Yevseyev reports that "21 of June 1941 of the year, the majority of the Black Sea Fleet ships in full combat readiness ... (without any directives from Moscow. - S. B.) gathered in extensive bays of the main base" because of the last day of large maneuvers. Here is what the former commander of the training detachment of the Black Sea Fleet Yevseyev wrote in December 1942: “... A wonderful Crimean evening arrived. Began dismissal of personnel to the coast. Life in Sevastopol went its usual way. Brightly lit streets and boulevards gleamed. The white houses flooded with fire, theaters and clubs attracted sailors who had left for the city to rest. Crowds of sailors and townspeople dressed in white filled the streets and gardens. The well-known Primorsky Boulevard was, as always, crowded with people walking ... The highest and most senior commanders of the fleet — the participants of the maneuvers — were invited by the fleet command to a banquet on the occasion of the successful completion of the maneuvers ... ”

The garrison alarm, according to Yevseyev, was already declared after the German bombers approached Sevastopol. And even then, many commanders to the question “What kind of airplanes are they?” Answered: “Yes, this is probably Ivan Stepanovich decided to check the readiness of the air defense ...” Admiral I.S. Isakov led the Black Sea Fleet maneuvers. It was he who secretly recorded Yevseyev’s 28 December 1943, ordering them to be classified as “with the right to use everything working in Sevastopol”.

By the way, in 1961, Krymizdat released notes to Evgenia Melnik, the gunner’s wife with the 35 heavy coastal battery, “Path to Underground”. Simple but informative, these notes begin with a description of the night from 21 to 22 on June 1941 of the year, and it agrees with Yevseyev's note. The blackout of the last two pre-war weeks was observed as far as the biggest naval exercises were held, which ended on June 22, for what reason the famous Primbull was brightly illuminated on the evening of June 21, and admirals gathered at the banquet.

I am a former Crimean, Kerch, not only from films, but also from veterans' stories, I know from the walls of Kerch that were cut by shrapnel, that the Black Sea people were fighting heroically, but the Black Sea people had many complaints about Admiral Oktyabrsky and other leading admirals. Alexander Shirokorad also wrote about the gross, tragic miscalculations of the naval leadership in mine settings after the start of the war, who cannot be counted as anti-patriots and falsifiers of history. But this - by the way.

LOGIC AGAINST MEMOIRS



The last peaceful day of the Black Sea Fleet. The cruiser "Molotov" in Sevastopol the day before the start of the war. 1941 Photo of the Year

If you believe the memoirs of Marshal Zhukov, Commissar of the Navy Kuznetsov and the same Admiral Zubkov, then on the last peaceful night only the Commissar of Defense and the Navy, not Stalin, acted adequately to the situation, that is, with vigor, vigilance and almost at your own peril. Admiral Zubkov writes: “As for the initiative when introducing operational readiness No. 1 ... however strange it may seem to Brezkun, she is N.G. Kuznetsov was indeed manifested, since he did not receive direct instructions from Stalin on this. And the introduction of 21 June 1941 operational readiness number 1, and the introduction of another 19 June operational readiness number 2, and an order to open fire on aircraft violating the airspace of the country in the fleet bases, issued by the 3 directive in March - all this was done by Kuznetsov without sanction Stalin. "

Strangely it turns out - we are told that after the 1937 of the year, “everyone was afraid,” and then the most important decisions were made - without the instructions and knowledge of Stalin. But let us see how Kuznetsov himself describes the situation in which he decided to give orders to the fleets? For details, I refer the reader to his memoirs or to the appropriate place of my article in 24 No. NVO, and here I remind you: Kuznetsov writes that Tymoshenko summoned him on June 21 in the evening, said that the Germans were expected to attack, and Zhukov “showed the telegram he sent prepared for the border districts. " After that, the “memoir” Kuznetsov allegedly immediately and without further ado ordered Rear Admiral Alafuzov: “Run into the headquarters and immediately instruct the fleets about the total actual readiness number one ...”

But what should the first thing be to ask the real Narkom of the Navy after he was informed by the people's commissar of defense and the NGS? There are no miracles in the world, and the real Kuznetsov was obliged to ask: “Did your actions be coordinated with Comrade Stalin?” - to which the real Tymoshenko and Zhukov could not but reply: “But how? We act with his direct sanction, and you, too, should carry it out! ”Or did Admiral Zubkov really believe that in reality it could have been otherwise?

Of course, no documentary evidence can be found on this score, but the very logic of events and common sense tell us that it could not be otherwise. Moreover, the fact that since June 19, the fleets had entered readiness number 20, logically and historically confirms the fact that Stalin authorized the bringing of troops into combat readiness already on June 19, which I wrote about.

The directive from 3 of March on the opening of fire on airplanes violating the border near the fleet bases could not be adopted without Stalin’s approval. With regard to German aircraft violating the land frontier, there was a strict ban, because the Germans attributed the violations to the loss of orientation by the pilots, which still seemed plausible. As for the fleet bases, then such an explanation did not “work”, the intentional nature of the violation was obvious, and the photo-intelligence of the fleet bases was potentially much more dangerous than the photo-intelligence of the deployment of army units.

Further, Admiral Zubkov declares: “Sergey Brezkun asserts:“ There are many reasons to assume that the army and the navy received Stalin’s first sanction ... received in advance — somewhere 18 – 19 June 1941 of the year ”. Such bases he apparently considers the orders of the People's Commissar of Defense against 19 June 1941 about deploying front command posts to 23 – 25 June and about disguising airfields, military units and other military facilities in Western border districts, and 30 reconnaissance mission by June 18 June of the commander of the 43 th fighter air division ZAPOV Colonel Zakharov along the state border. However, Brezkun does not provide any evidence of Stalin’s involvement in these events. ”

I don’t know, first, why this distinguished opponent decided that I regard the mentioned orders and the flight of Colonel Zakharov as confirmation of the version about Stalin’s advance readiness of the troops. There are much more reasons for such a version, both documentary and memoirical, as well as logical. But not everything can be cited in a newspaper article, for which reason I refer Admiral Zubkov and interested readers, for example, to my books, in particular about Beria and Stalin. It says a lot more about that.

Secondly, as regards specifically the reconnaissance flight of Colonel Zakharov, the meaning of which I first analyzed in detail in my book about L.P. Beria, there really is no documentary evidence of Stalin’s involvement in this event. But if, excuse me, you find a man and a woman who escaped a year ago during a shipwreck, in company with a three-month baby, on a deserted island, then you, although you didn’t keep a candle over them, rightly assume who the father and mother of this baby is. So, all the circumstances of the flight of Colonel Zakharov (his detailed description by Zakharov himself is given in my books) logically unequivocally point to the direct involvement in this event not only of Stalin, but also of Beria. At the same time, I do not categorically state (as A. Martirosyan does, for example) that Stalin 19 of June gave the necessary sanction. I just say that a comprehensive analysis of the last prewar week allows us to reasonably assume that such a sanction was given and that the joint and benign efforts of many are necessary in order for this version to be reliably confirmed.

AND SOME SOMETHING ABOUT ORDERS


I emphasize once again that, as far as I can, I try to debunk the myths about the war, for today too many people are covered with a thick crust of dirt about the truth about Stalin, about his associates, his commanders and naval commanders ... About those who fell in the first days of the war, and those who gave strength, and then - and life, fighting on its fronts for almost four years. By false myths, this truth began to grow over with Khrushchev. Thus, in 1961, Voenizdat published the first volume of the “History of the Great Patriotic War of the Soviet Union 1941 – 1945”. The six-volume work was developed by a team of researchers from the Department of the History of the Great Patriotic War of the Institute of Marxism-Leninism under the Central Committee of the CPSU, and Academician Peter Pospelov was the chairman of the Editorial Committee. And in this capital (exactly 2 kg weight) volume on page 100 it was stated: “The Soviet Armed Forces achieved considerable success in their development, which worried the imperialist circles of the West ... These circles in search of ways to weaken the Red Army used Beria and his accomplices to destroy many of the most experienced and trained commanders and political workers. "

Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria had no relation to the 1937 – 1938 army and naval purges, working in those years as the First Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolsheviks) of Georgia. He became the people's commissar of internal affairs at the end of 1938, and at the post of people's commissar he returned to the Red Army and the RKKF many experienced and trained commanders and political workers, including the future Marshal Konstantin Rokossovsky.

Looking for comments here?

But this, so to speak, is an admonition to certain information, to reflect on certain orders of the prewar period ...

27 December 1940, the new People's Commissar of Defense, Marshal Tymoshenko, who replaced Marshal Voroshilov, issued Order No. 0367, which read:

“By the order of NKO 1939, No. 0145, obligatory masking of all newly constructed operational airfields was required. The Main Directorate of the Red Army Air Force was to carry out these measures not only on operational, but also on the entire airfield network of the Air Force. However, none of the districts paid proper attention to this order and did not fulfill it.

It is necessary to realize that without a thorough camouflage of all airfields, the creation of false airfields and the masking of all material parts in modern warfare, combat operations of aviation are inconceivable.

I order:



3. All airfields ... must be sown with due regard for masking and applicable to the surrounding terrain by selecting appropriate grasses. On airfields to imitate fields, meadows, vegetable gardens, pits, ditches, ditches, roads, in order to completely merge the background of the airfield with the background of the surrounding terrain. By 1 July 1941, complete the masking of all airfields located in the 500-km strip from the border.



9. The Air Force Inspector-General to establish control and report on progress on a monthly basis.

People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR Marshal of the Soviet Union S. Tymoshenko ”.

What does the deadline for the execution of the order “by 1 July 1941” mean?

This means that if the commission appointed by the People's Commissar to verify the execution of his order No. 0367 from 27 December 1940, 1 July flew over the entire 500-kilometer strip from the border, then ideally it would have to see the airfield instead of airfields gardens and pits. In this case, all the main work on masking by the middle of June 1941, the year should have ended.

Alas, the order of the People's Commissar of Defense No. 0367 from 27.12.1940 of the year was not executed in the same way as the order No. 0145 of 09.09.1939 of the year was not executed.

The question is, after the outbreak of war, the Air Force Inspector-General, Assistant Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army for Aviation, twice Hero of the Soviet Union, Lieutenant-General Aviation Yakov Smushkevich and Head of the Main Directorate of the Air Force, Deputy People's Commissar of Defense Hero of the Soviet Union, Lieutenant-General Aviation Pavel Rychagov? But Nikita Khrushchev rehabilitated them in 1954 year.

Actually, Tymoshenko also gave the order, and he clearly forgot to demand that he fulfill it in terms of the monthly reports of the Air Force Inspector. Otherwise, the order would be executed! And so in the order number 0042 from 19 June 1941, the People's Commissar Tymoshenko and the Chief of the General Staff Zhukov stated:

“So far, no major has been done to disguise airfields and major military facilities.

The airfield fields are not planted, the take-off strips for the color of the terrain are not painted, and the airfield buildings, standing out sharply in bright colors, attract the observer’s attention by tens of kilometers.

The crowded and linear arrangement of aircraft on airfields in the complete absence of their concealment and poor organization of airfield service with the use of unmasking signs finally unmask the airfield ... "

As followed from the same order, the Air Force leadership did not bother to arrange false airfields for 19 June 1941, too. And the crowding of technology can be judged by the photos of our planes destroyed on the ground. Burnt, destroyed, they stand wing to wing, and even in two rows.

Many ground generals on the part of the criminal neglect of the affairs of the service from the aviation generals left not far. And this was mentioned in the same order No. 0042 from 19 June 1941:

“Artillery and mechanized mechanized units display a similar carelessness for masking: the crowded and linear arrangement of their parks is not only excellent objects of observation, but also targets that are beneficial for defeating from the air.

Tanks, armored vehicles, command and other special vehicles of motorized and other troops are painted with colors that give a bright reflection, and are well observed not only from air but also from the ground.

Nothing has been done to disguise warehouses and other important military installations. ”

And this is not all the killer facts of this kind! Is it possible now to be surprised that the war began as it began? And is it guilty that it began like this, Stalin?

We really lack the true history of the war, but we are unlikely to have it without revealing, but glossing over the unattractive facts, if not of direct betrayal, then of criminal negligence and irresponsibility of a large part of the higher generals of the Red Army, explained by no means cleansing (the repressed were even worse, that show, for example, transcripts of meetings of the Supreme Military Council under the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR), and an insufficient sense of responsibility, which had to be eliminated at a high price. Without touching on this topic in detail, it can be noted that even after half a century, in the summer of 1991, the then higher generals, instead of defending the constitutional order, were totally covered by inaction and connivance of the enemies.

As for specifically Admiral Kuznetsov, the marshals of Tymoshenko and Zhukov, they drank their bitter cup and guided the war that started as a whole with dignity - who is more successful, who is less, but honestly. However, do not make them knights without fear and reproach - they, as I understand it, didn’t have fear, but they deserved the accusations. But reproach is not reproach. Reproach does not exclude our gratitude and respect for those who stood next to Stalin at the head of that war and won it, having assimilated its first lessons correctly.
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  1. tatarin_ru
    tatarin_ru 24 October 2015 14: 54 New
    12
    They say winners write history, we need to win more often.
    1. razzhivin
      razzhivin 24 October 2015 16: 20 New
      12
      World War I, too, began not without Anglo-Saxons .... And the third (if any) is not without them ...
      1. severniy
        severniy 24 October 2015 22: 21 New
        +5
        Quote: tatarin_ru
        They say winners write history, we need to win more often.

        seems to be so .. but where the current did not win, and history is written crookedly .., the Baltic states were just captured !, Western Ukraine was occupied, the heroes of the Banders, Shukhevychs and others were exterminated! .., they say black in white, at least kill yourself .. here it is time not to write a campaign, but to put a stigma with a red-hot iron .. so that all our "brothers" at the genetic level remembered how to spoil relations with Russia ...
        1. vladimirZ
          vladimirZ 25 October 2015 06: 51 New
          +3
          The history of the defeat of 1941, and even 1942, unfortunately in our historical literature is little studied.
          This was facilitated by a number of reasons, since the war period, when it was impossible to undermine the people's faith in Victory, faith in generals and marshals, faith in the leadership of the state for the sake of a future undoubted Victory.

          But what was justified in the war is not justified in the post-war period, when for our future, it was necessary to investigate all the causes of our failures and defeats of the pre-war and initial periods of the war.
          And Stalin I.V., at a banquet on the occasion of the Victory and Parade of Forces in 1945, said about this that we still need to deal with those events of the 1941 defeat.
          And the "disgraced" Zhukov G.K. and a number of other military leaders, in the post-war period, is partly associated with these "showdowns".
          In the post-Stalin era, all studies of the causes of defeat were forgotten and all the reasons for the defeat of the beginning of the war were attributed by the Khrushchev campaign to I.V. Stalin, who "innocently" repressed the military leadership, and, according to Khrushchev, "who led military operations on the globe."
          Everything is easy and simple - Stalin is to blame, the rest are all white and fluffy.
          So we got a distorted history of the Great Patriotic War, the truth of which we still do not know.
          Therefore, any research, whether by professional historians or just people who are interested in these problems and are able to write books, only deserves praise and encouragement.
          We need to write about this, we need to open the archives of the war for researchers, and tell the truth, no matter how bitter it may be.
          This is necessary for us alive to learn from them, to draw conclusions to evaluate the current modern time, and the current leaders of Russia.
          Stop stepping on the same rake of the infallibility of the leadership of both the country and the Army.
          Stop singing "Aliluya!" any leaders of the country during their rule, and then throw mud at them after they leave power.
          One must be objectively critical of the leadership in power while they are in power, preventing their "mistakes" and troubles for the people and the state.
          It costs too much for our people and our Russia.
    2. razzhivin
      razzhivin 24 October 2015 16: 32 New
      -15
      The main irony is that the current Anglo-Saxons, in fact, are not, because their elite was cut out in the 11 century by the Franco-Normans ... And the article is so-so, it raises more questions than explains something ...
      1. fzr1000
        fzr1000 24 October 2015 16: 39 New
        +1
        Quite a few of this "elite" fell in North America, South Africa, India, in the fields of 1 MV, but they will never end.
        1. razzhivin
          razzhivin 24 October 2015 17: 13 New
          0
          These are already the "bastards" of the Normans .. lol
    3. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 24 October 2015 21: 00 New
      +4
      Quote: tatarin_ru
      They say winners write history, we need to win more often.

      A plus!
      The thought is excellent and promising.

      But, as for the article itself, then everything is not simple.

      1. Memoirs are not in the full sense of a professional source of information. As they said, in the military departments of the 1970s: “Newspapers are written for housewives. All politics is done by boys in black jackets in iron boxes in the Atlantic. ”
      The same with a great degree of truth can be attributed to the recollections of generals and admirals ...
      The objective function of all 5 of these books is patriotic education. A very important component of national security. And do not water the Communists for false information. There was no special lie in those books, but there are, of course, many misunderstandings and errors. But this is a natural process.

      2. It must be assumed that our discussions did not involve officers who had access to special manuals and training aids on military strategy. I suppose that an analysis of what happened in 1941 by the Institute of Military History was made. I am sure that it was done. I even remember the book "The initial period of the war" of the early 1970s. So there was such a conclusion: after the Nazis entered Paris. Our General Staff conducted exercises. In which beetles. Playing for the West, he spread the defense of the East .... But, supposedly, the conclusions of the General Staff G.K. Zhukov did not ...
      So there is a closed version of such a study not for housewives ... Otherwise, where the open version comes from.
    4. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 24 October 2015 21: 00 New
      +1
      3. Concerning the "conspiracy of silence."
      Of course he was. This is the natural state of a normal person.
      There is such a proverb - the one who does nothing is not mistaken.
      Our warlord heroes were also mistaken. Even very good ones. And they know the price of Victory. And the price of a command error. And they also have a conscience. And a feeling of compassion, so as not to blame forever for past mistakes.
      And in order to at least sometime sleep themselves without terrible dreams ...
      So they are silent.
      My father-in-law, a true disabled person from a non-working group, was also silent, ticks must be pulled out, at least something about the war ...

      4. The tragedy of 1941, in principle, is understandable. The fortifications of the western border - the Stalin line - were actually disarmed for the sake of a political mission in the newly promised territories. The armed forces are a very complex organism, even from an economic point of view. Someone explained to me at the time that the division commander is roughly the rank of management — the head of the 300000 city. And in the west we had about 100 divisions. And what, could this community be fully equipped within 1,5 - 1 years? Moreover, in the presence of hostility among a part of the population.
      If only the border guards and the NKVD troops had gone west, and the rest would have remained in their previous positions, maybe there would have been no war in 1941. And the result of border battles would be completely different. And we would have other hero cities.
    5. Sergey S.
      Sergey S. 24 October 2015 21: 01 New
      +7
      5. Still, the main reason for the losses of 1941 is the insufficiently high level of training. And it’s not about repression. That is, repression is a monstrous evil. But they also became such, due to the lack of professionalism of the performers. And where does professionalism come from? Remember the Russian-Japanese, the First World ... About Civil and nothing to say. So much of it is exclusively from political expediency, and on both sides. Accordingly, at the beginning of World War II, many "experienced" military leaders were replaced by young nominees. Forced. And again we studied from personal experience ...
      Until 1941, the last big war in which Russia entered fully prepared (with reservations) with its entire army - the Patriotic War of 1812. And then they let Europe into Moscow. And here again Europe, and even with the experience of modern warfare ...
      Now about the level of training of our soldiers. Literacy has just ended in the country. Many learned to read and write, wrote in block letters, and read fluently in syllables. I know what I'm writing about. In the late 1960s, he personally observed grandparents in the collective farm village of Vesyegonsky district.
      And what kind of soldiers are these who do not know how to read the charter, military manuals, technical regulations ... And also units from the Union republics that do not speak Russian at all and are generally illiterate ...
      The exception was the technical branches of the troops. Tankers, pilots, artillerymen were, as a rule, from working youth - literate and more disciplined.
      Things were even better with personnel in the Navy. This largely lies in the relative successes of the fleet against the background of ground forces.

      6. I can’t judge all commanders.
      But N.G. Kuznetsov blame and even today in the "conspiracy of silence" is deeply wrong. This is not consistent with military ethics. But the merits of N.G. Kuznetsova is undeniable. The combat readiness system - at that time it was the pinnacle of operational management, which saved many lives and ships, which brought up the cadres of a new generation.
      In addition, I do not understand why to find out the little things, who told whom to whom and when. The main fleet entered readiness number 1 a little earlier. What appeared German planes.
      And evidence of celebrations on primrose in Sevastopol is not an argument. Signal workers, searchlights and anti-aircraft gunners were with ship guns and technical means.
      And something was written about Sevastopol’s flare. At the same A.B. Shirokorada reported, as I understand it, on the basis of documents that, on the basis of the dimming order, the Inkerman directional signs and lighthouse did not go out - the connection was cut by saboteurs. And there were sent messengers on motorbikes.
      It also reports that in Sevastopol in the morning about 70 dead were found - the result of provocations and incitement to panic.

      So the conditions for our military were unusually difficult. The Germans were well prepared, the number of saboteurs was huge. Hence, accurate raids, accurate tank raids, congestion on roads and crossings, supply disruption.

      7. Today, these conversations are almost meaningless.
      This is if you just blame or just get excited. And it doesn’t matter to whom, I.V. Stalin or K.K. Rokosovsky.
      You must understand that the leader is always responsible for everything. And for me there is no reason to separate the person. All who then lived and served were subordinates of I.V. Stalin. And if someone did not show himself with dignity, then the chief who appointed him is also to blame. But if someone achieved Victory, good luck ... then along with those. Who taught him, appointed, supervised.
      Therefore, the bitterness of the losses of 1941 is a spot not only on Pavlov and others like him. But also on Zhukov, Tymoshenko, ... ....................., Stalin.
      Equally, the Victory is an achievement not only of Egorov and Kantaria, but also of Zhukov, Konev, Rokosovsky Rodimtsev, Kuznetsov, Oktyabrsky, .... , And, of course, I.V. Stalin.

      And there’s nothing to cast a shadow on the fence.
      1. meriem1
        meriem1 25 October 2015 00: 02 New
        0
        In general, not quite like that. !!! Sources and history are always right. Just bring the philosopher Nietzsche !!!

        1. "Evil people have no songs." Why do Russians have songs?

        2. “For the emergence of any kind of institutions, there must be a will, instinctual, anti-liberal to brilliance, a will to tradition, to authority, to responsibility for entire centuries, to the solidarity of past and future generations ... If this will is present, then something like a Roman empire arises, or like Russia - the only country that currently has a future ... Russia is the opposite of the miserable nervousness of small European states, for which, with the founding of the German Empire, a critical time has come. "

        3. “For the task before us, the evidence of Dostoevsky is of great importance - this is the only psychologist, by the way, from whom I learned a lot; he belongs to the finest accidents of my life, to better than, for example, the discovery of Stendhal.

        This deep man, who had every right to put the surface Germans low, felt something completely unexpected for himself in relation to the Siberian convicts, among whom he lived for a long time, to these heavy criminals for whom there was no return to society; he felt that they were as if carved from the best, strongest, most precious tree that only grew on Russian soil. ”

        4. "They obeyed the punishment, as they obey illness, misfortune, death, with that deep fatalism without indignation, due to which, for example, at present, Russians have an advantage in life compared to us, the Western peoples."

        5. “The strongest and most amazing of all willpower is manifested in the vast middle kingdom, where Europe, as it were, returns to Asia - Russia. There, the power to want has long been put aside and accumulated, there the will waits - it is not known, the will of denial or the will of affirmation - it waits in a menacing way in order, according to the favorite expression of the current physicists, to free itself. ”

        6. “The thinker who has the future of Europe on his conscience, with all the plans that he makes for himself regarding this future, will reckon with the Jews, and with the Russians, as the most faithful and probable factors in the great struggle and play of forces” .

        7. “A painful state is itself a form of malice. “The patient has only one great healing remedy against him,” I call him Russian fatalism, that fatalism without indignation with which the Russian soldier, when the military campaign is too heavy for him, finally lays in the snow. ”

        8. "That Russian fatalism, which I spoke of ... - this is in such circumstances self-determination and self-determination."


        Where is Nietzsche and where are we ??? But about the ulcer of liberalism, I ask you to check out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      2. yuriy55
        yuriy55 25 October 2015 03: 50 New
        +1
        With all the understanding and admiration, the work you have done will simply add (on the conclusions of many, many):
        the retreat and setbacks of the first months of the WWII are the result of poor field training (coherence of the combat arms during tactical exercises) and poor quality of command and control (lack of communication and coordination among units and subunits). Therefore, neither the availability of equipment, nor the warning of defectors and intelligence helped us. And coherence and training were polished already during the war, and, thanks to the heroism of our people, the perseverance and firmness of the Russian character, we won ...
        And, most importantly, all those who today are trying to humiliate and belittle the role of our country and our people in the victory over fascism should know, understand, and cut off on their nose ...soldier
      3. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 26 October 2015 16: 26 New
        0
        Quote: Sergey S.
        The exception was the technical branches of the troops. Tankers, pilots, artillerymen were, as a rule, from working youth - literate and more disciplined.

        Blessed is he who believes ...
        In the "old" mechanized corps formed in the autumn of 1940, 10-15% l / s had an education of 1-3 classes or did not have it at all. 60-70% had education from 3 to 7 grades. In the technical branches of the troops!
        And in the "new" MK in the spring of 1941 came the appeal of 1941:
        Recruitment by rank and file is mainly due to the March draft of recruits (70-90%). Parts are 100% complete with recruits.
        The quality of replenishment by education is up to 50% with education not higher than 4 classes.
        The presence of a large number of nationalities that are poorly fluent and completely fluent in Russian will make it difficult

        However, as the experience of the post-war SA showed, there is a way to train such soldiers. But it requires trained sergeants and junior commanders, as well as manuals and training aids. But in the pre-war BTV, all of this either did not exist at all, or was in completely insufficient quantities. For example, instructions on T-34 were planned for publication in the second half of 1941. Arrangement of classes and training grounds - the end of 1941. As for the sergeants and junior commanders, there were 40-60% of them in the BTV. Moreover, just the most scarce specialties were lacking. For example, instead of radio specialists, they sent specialists to the communication unit by wire.
        Moreover, even young committees of "traditional" specialties with training were full of seams:
        The division has a significant lack of staff: senior and secondary - 271 people. (21%) ... Lack of junior command personnel - 575 people ... When checking classes, it was found:
        In the 2nd battalion of the 29th tank regiment, classes on the subject “A fighter in an offensive battle” were conducted by Art. Sergeant D. No one instructed him on this topic. Abstract is poorly compiled. D. himself does not know how to use a shovel. The Red Army men do not know the technique for lying down trenches, they do not use a shovel well, and they choose unsuccessfully places for shooting. The dashboard technique is poorly developed, and weapons for shooting are not manufactured. Senior sergeant D. explained the combat mission clumsily. Example: "The squad take possession of the farm and defeat the enemy."
        A lesson on the topic “Observation outside the tank from an observation post” was conducted by ml. Lieutenant K. No observation post was scheduled. No change of observers was made. There were no binoculars in the classroom.

        And this is 15 TD 8 MK ("old").
  2. avvg
    avvg 24 October 2015 15: 00 New
    13
    In my opinion, we will admire for a long time - about the heroism of the Soviet people during the Second World War, led by Stalin. Unfortunately, falsifiers were and will be, especially among national traitors.
    1. Masya masya
      Masya masya 24 October 2015 15: 28 New
      22
      And do not admire, just need to know! We must remember! And to pass on to our children and grandchildren, this is pain! What admiration? This is a memory !!! This is pride !!!
  3. Hardy
    Hardy 24 October 2015 15: 18 New
    -31
    "From the standpoint of a Soviet patriot" you can only engage in propaganda, not history.)))
    No need to be a Soviet patriot, you just need to be a patriot. That is, always for their own, then there will be no need to look for excuses, and then it will not be forgotten that the war has long been ongoing.
    If we attacked Finland, voluntarily and forcibly annexed the territories of other countries independent at that time, then what prevented us from preparing for a war with Hitler not on our land? Yes, this is no one before 41 and did not hide, you watch films of those years. The main slogan is to beat the enemy on its territory. Drap was because they were not preparing for such a war ...
    Moreover, they expected that Hitler would start first, but did not expect such a strong blow, and so all the troops and depots at the border were stationed to make it easier to attack. The superiority in technology in the USSR over Hitler was multiple. What can I say, even if the remains of that army after the defeat of 41 years were enough to conquer half of Europe. But all of Europe was no longer enough ... There were still many points, but they were no longer significant, although they also played into Hitler’s hands.
    If we were not ready for war, then Leningrad would not have kept it. There, the Nazis crossed the border like that and ran into us. Is the army in the north different or weapons? No, it’s just that we were really preparing for the defense.
    And on the central front, in anticipation of their response to the aggression of the offensive, they drove themselves into a sack, hoped for the indestructible power of our army.
    It was Stalin’s mistake. Not because he is stupid, this is just the mistake of an intelligent person, a player. He put too much at stake, but that was practically the whole world as a prize ... It would be possible to contain the first onslaught and further crush the Wehrmacht and that’s it, you can free the whole world. Therefore, even after the first defeat, everyone was still trying to advance instead of a competent defensive, exhausting war. It was difficult to abandon the original plans.
    1. Masya masya
      Masya masya 24 October 2015 15: 38 New
      +9
      You tell it to my grandfather, I think in response you did not hear such words ...
      1. severniy
        severniy 24 October 2015 22: 30 New
        +2
        for hardy ...
        you watch movies of those years

        Do you have them in 3D?
        Is the army in the north different or weapons? No, just there we really prepared for defense

        "The ratio of forces in Lithuania in the first echelon was 3: 1, and in some areas even 4: 1 in favor of the Germans. The Germans' task was to successfully pass the critical phase of the operation - the first day. Most likely, the result of the operation was carefully calculated in the German General Staff and showed minimal risk of defeat. The Germans, not without reason, were confident of success. "
        what kind of defense were we preparing for there, tell me ??, there simply was actually the city of LENIN, which at that time was sacred and that’s why it wasn’t given ..
        but did not expect such a strong blow

        yeah, they probably thought at Headquarters that Adolfushka would throw Polish apples .., he wasn't the one who crushed the whole of Europe, what else could he hit with ..
        if even the remains of that army after the defeat of 41 years were enough to conquer half of Europe

        look through the archives, that there is a mobilization of all ages ... there weren’t any remnants like you, there all the people all 4.5 years rushed to the front, many without waiting for adulthood stood at the military commissariats, and you say .., yes lan, oh what is there to talk ....
    2. 79807420129
      79807420129 24 October 2015 17: 49 New
      16
      Dear Hardy, you probably have scribbles such as Viktor Suvorov (Rezun) or Igor Bunich, because this nonsense repeats what you wrote and you don’t need to rewrite history, my grandfathers would have read if I had read it, I won’t continue , and catch the minus from me.
      1. Hardy
        Hardy 24 October 2015 22: 50 New
        +1
        Quote: 79807420129
        Dear Hardy, you probably have scribbles such as Viktor Suvorov (Rezun) or Igor Bunich, because this nonsense repeats what you wrote and you don’t need to rewrite history, my grandfathers would have read if I had read it, I won’t continue , and catch the minus from me.

        And could you answer in more detail that you were so hurt in my post? Do you consider yourself patriots of Russia, but at the same time you are ready to accept only an impeccable history from the point of view of declared Western morality? Are you ready to recognize our ancestors as stupid, clogged assholes who, having multiple technical superiority, let the enemy pass right up to Moscow? And then they threw corpses over? Does this West Khrushchev version suit you more?
        And why are you so shy to talk about the war until June 41 and after May 9 45? Personally, one of my grandfather fought in Finnish and was seriously injured, and the second in Japanese. And what, they are not heroes? Nothing so that we only honor the heroes of the Second World War, is this normal in your opinion? Or tell me, if Hitler suddenly attacked us and we only defended ourselves, such are weak-willed pacifists. Then why did we attack Japan, Finland? Maybe you think the sixth of the land just got to Russia?
        But now, after we drained everything with such enormous blood and deprivation, our ancestors conquered the Second World War. After you exposed them as cowardly sillies fearing Hitler, you have the audacity to celebrate Victory Day, and tell tales, what would happen to me?))) What do you think about us now?
        Listen to Stalin's speech on the Victory over Germany on May 9, 1945:
        "From now on, the great banner of freedom of peoples and peace among peoples will fly over Europe.
        Three years ago, Hitler publicly declared that his task was to dismember the Soviet Union and tear the Caucasus, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic states and other regions away from it. He stated bluntly: "We will destroy Russia so that it can never rise again." That was three years ago. But Hitler's crazy ideas were not destined to come true "

        And explain to me that we are now celebrating May 9th? After all, all that Hitler dreamed of came true. And you were left only with flawed pride in return, so that, God forbid, they thought that it turns out that the ancestors didn’t ask anyone and they themselves decided when and with whom to fight ...
        Oh, Khrushchev-Western patriots)))

        And where does the version of Suvorov? He argues that Stalin would certainly attack Germany. And I just think that Stalin would not have framed. And the real story only confirms this.
      2. EvgNik
        EvgNik 25 October 2015 05: 42 New
        +2
        Quote: 79807420129
        Dear Hardy, you probably such scribbles as Viktor Suvorov (Rezun) or Igor Bunich read

        So I wanted to say that Hardy read the wrong books.
        ""The main slogan is to beat the enemy on its territory. Drap was because they were not preparing for such a war.""
        Always quote this quote which supposedly proves that the Soviet Union wanted to attack Germany. Is this the biggest mistake (or the biggest lie?). There was no desire to attack Europe themselves, not in the traditions of the Russians to attack first. Underestimating the strength of the enemy - this is. The belief that the enemy did not advance beyond the border was. And since Hardy touched films of Soviet times - I advise you to reconsider again, and not from the positions of enemies of the USSR.
    3. razzhivin
      razzhivin 24 October 2015 19: 35 New
      +2
      Hardy to you not only to read V. Suvorov (by the way for the first time printed in Germany, and actively used before the collapse of the USSR), but something more serious ...
    4. Etric
      Etric 24 October 2015 23: 13 New
      +4
      Judging by your speeches, you grabbed at the top of scraps of knowledge and carry nonsense. Finland was offered excellent conditions for the exchange of territory. After all, it was possible to shell Leningrad directly from Finland, and this did not suit the government, and the fact that the seizure of land and the movement of the border was a result of the war, this decision is right and wrong for us not to judge. The question is different why there was such poor command and control.
      Further, after the Soviet-Finnish war, the USSR was expelled from the League of Nations and we would start the first war it is not yet known if the Germans would not have united with the British for a general war against us. So not everything is so simple
    5. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 October 2015 17: 20 New
      +1
      Quote: Hardy
      If we attacked Finland, voluntarily and forcibly annexed the territories of other countries independent at that time, then what prevented us from preparing for a war with Hitler not on our land? Yes, this is no one before 41 and did not hide, you watch films of those years. The main slogan is to beat the enemy on its territory.

      Probably, it was precisely for the war on a foreign territory that the InzhUpr of the Red Army in early 1941 began to breakdown on the territory of the UR near Moscow - with a delivery date of 1942. I'm not talking about the evacuation plan, which was being prepared for 15 pre-war years (moreover, their enhanced adjustment began in 1939), and about the main warehouses of the border districts, which belonged even to Smolensk and Kiev. smile
      Don't confuse propaganda and planning. The strategic planning of the USSR since the beginning of the 20s was carried out on the basis of a strategy of attrition: the war will be long, the army will retreat, the industry will be evacuated. The winner will be the one who can better mobilize the industry and crush the enemy with "iron".
      Quote: Hardy
      Moreover, they expected that Hitler would start first, but did not expect such a strong blow, and so all the troops and depots at the border were stationed to make it easier to attack.

      No, I understand such statements 15 years ago. But now the deployment of warehouses for 1941 is on the network. In the border zone there were only "consumable" warehouses of the 4th category. The main warehouses remained on the "old land", in the rear areas of the districts.
      Quote: Hardy
      The superiority in technology in the USSR over Hitler was multiple. What can I say, even if the remains of that army after the defeat of 41 years were enough to conquer half of Europe.

      Do you still think tanks on tablets? smile
      Better count the crews. Taking into account the availability of 200 new types of training tanks for all border districts. And you can also count the serviceable equipment. That is, with tracks, not worn out engines, serviceable running gear, etc., etc. Do not offer the "second category" - it includes vehicles requiring military repair, which is impossible without spare parts.
      Quote: Hardy
      If we were not ready for war, then Leningrad would not have kept it. There, the Nazis crossed the border like that and ran into us. Is the army in the north different or weapons?

      You will not believe it, but from the north to Leningrad a different army did indeed attack. Finnish. And even in a month she managed to organize a couple of boilers and discard our units on the KAUR line and even beyond the old border to Svir.
      Moreover, in order to counter the Finns north of Ladoga, they had to violate Zhukov’s order and hold 1 td 1 MK for a month.
      Quote: Hardy
      Therefore, even after the first defeat, everyone was still trying to advance instead of a competent defensive, exhausting war.

      In the southern direction, they sat down on the defensive - on the "Stalin line", received reinforcements in units, with the support of artillery up to 203 mm. The result - the Germans took advantage of our passivity and, having exposed the front, concentrated superior forces and broke through this defense in 2-3 days.
  4. hly
    hly 24 October 2015 15: 26 New
    +3
    worthy answer ...
  5. Sergey Medvedev
    Sergey Medvedev 24 October 2015 15: 33 New
    +2
    Tired of these black diggers in the underwear of military leaders of the Second World War. It would be better if they investigated other issues, the real balance of forces and means of the warring parties, for example. Instead, they intrigue us with some kind of intrigue (which either were or were not) and try to convince that these intrigues solve everything. The author himself is a schemer, hike.
    1. ava09
      ava09 24 October 2015 19: 18 New
      +4
      Quote: Sergei Medvedev
      The author himself is a schemer, hike.


      An intriguer is one who blames others for no reason. Whether you intentionally do this, not sure. Judging by your wishes, rather out of dense stupidity.
  6. meriem1
    meriem1 24 October 2015 15: 48 New
    +7
    Admiral Zubkov was carrying such madness. And about "CALIBR" they said that they would never fly. But not so. Everything happened. WWII is a pain. At least OUR. What is there and how the Saxons did ... everyone understands approximately. We understand. They don't seem to. Nobody wants war. But if you have to, then even those who were corrupted ... the last junkie will die for his Mom or Sister ... forgetting about the buzz. But they definitely don't understand this. Those who are poor in spirit, and now obviously and mentally moved, will once again receive ... and will hide for another 50 years. All repeats. Only the history of lovers of dough, hamburgers and those close to them does not teach.
    1. _GSVG_
      _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 14: 42 New
      0
      I’m not sure about the nariks, if only the back of the detachment will stand with an alternative - either you will be buried in this trench, or you’ll go on the attack, and it’s not a fact that it will, say, shoot here. soldier
  7. nrex
    nrex 24 October 2015 15: 50 New
    +5
    The last peaceful day of the Black Sea Fleet. The cruiser "Molotov" in Sevastopol the day before the start of the war. 1941 Photo of the Year


    Something the military comrades are dressed in an improper way, it does not look like June 21 in Sevastopol. The one on the far right rests on a quilted pea coat, and a winter hat is not tied on the head. (Not according to the charter)
    As a person who has passed the army, I am well aware that the transition to summer or winter uniforms is carried out by appropriate order. Therefore, judging by the photograph, the form is not suitable for the summer Crimea in the Sevastopol region, but is more suitable for early spring or late autumn.
    Therefore, the author’s words about the aspects of the defeat of the Soviet Union at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War cause great doubt. Of course, many facts of miscalculations are hidden by the Heroes of the Winners, but there are reasons for this, such as the reprisive apparatus and the lack of desire to show one’s own weakness and confusion at the initial stages of the war against the backdrop of the Great Victory. I think not for a big circle, but at the General Staff Academy they know and study these mistakes and miscalculations. There are things that ordinary mortals do not need to know, so they know less sleep better.))
    1. Denis DV
      Denis DV 24 October 2015 16: 56 New
      +4
      Judging by the outermost robe on the right, this is from the repair unit, possibly welders, or service staff.
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 24 October 2015 20: 57 New
        +2
        Quote: Denis DV
        Judging by the outermost robe on the right, this is from the repair unit, possibly welders, or service staff.

        The picture was taken from the side of the hospital wall, most likely it is recovering.
        Quote: nrex
        Something the military comrades are dressed in an improper way, it does not look like June 21 in Sevastopol. The one on the far right rests on a quilted pea coat, and a winter hat is not tied on the head. (Not according to the charter)

        The photo shows that the Molotov entered the Sevastopol Bay (along the bow there is a small breaker and the anchor is in place), with an increase, a thickening is noticeable at the stern in the area of ​​the littered barge. Perhaps this photo was taken on November 5, 1944, when the squadron was returning to Sevastopol, although at that time the English "Spmtfire" was based on the Molotov, and in the photo KOR-2 and the mooring team are not wearing pea jackets (supposed November) but a white work uniform. Most likely this is a post-war photo, but not as a pre-war one, "Molotov" came to Sevastopol on June 16-17 and stood on barrels in the area of ​​the artillery bay. In the photo posted, the cruiser passes the Sevastopol parking lot, and the houses on Severnaya are all destroyed. Nevertheless, it is not this photo that is important, but what happened on June 22! And I have no final answer to the question "why" what
  8. cniza
    cniza 24 October 2015 16: 40 New
    +2
    Quote: Sergey Medvedev
    Tired of these black diggers in the underwear of military leaders of the Second World War.



    Near the great events, hangers-on were always rubbing in order to at least somehow show themselves and show their significance.
  9. bashkort
    bashkort 24 October 2015 18: 05 New
    +6
    About the fact that they stole the direct order of Stalin on bringing the troops into combat readiness No. 1 has already been written many times. But the farther, the less likely that someday the truth will be revealed. And about the deceit of the brazen ones and others like them, they are just completely deaf and stupid not in the know.
    1. razzhivin
      razzhivin 24 October 2015 18: 20 New
      -2
      Was 37 years old ... And if after that the orders are not carried out, then the meaning of these repressions cannot be explained except by "internal politics" ... Then the price had to be paid accordingly ...
      1. _GSVG_
        _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 14: 57 New
        0
        The point is that not everyone in the 37 was raked in, and those who didn’t raked in hoped that the USSR would break up quickly, and no one would figure out who had not fulfilled what order on time and why.
        Yes, they raked in the army conspirators and the Trotskyists, well, there were just fools who got out at the expense of the Civil, and completely inexperienced (in the sense of no experience and knowledge about the modern motorized war) and maybe those who really wanted to win Adik, but did not tell anyone grouping did not enter. Read above? Orders were carried out, but not by all, not always on time. Sometimes, due to negligence, elementary discipline and knowledge of charters and regulations were not enough.
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 26 October 2015 17: 39 New
        0
        Quote: razzhivin
        Was 37 years old ... And if after that the orders are not carried out, then the meaning of these repressions cannot be explained except by "internal politics" ... Then the price had to be paid accordingly ...

        The difference in the situation before 1937 and after 1937 is that before 1937 they often ignored or interpreted not only the orders for camouflage, but even the orders of the highest level - about the beginning of hostilities and mobilization.

        For example, the notorious citizen Blucher, at first instead of the assistance prescribed to him by the border guards, created a commission to investigate their activities, and then, without having permission from Moscow, announced a general mobilization in his district - which could translate the conflict with Japan into the format of a full-fledged war. In short, he behaved in much the same way as his opponents in China - acted according to his own understanding, ignoring the Metropolis.
  10. grinyow.ivan
    grinyow.ivan 24 October 2015 18: 13 New
    +1
    from all this for Russia, one conclusion (damned is someone who relied on people) trust in the Lord and be strong.
    1. _GSVG_
      _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 15: 00 New
      0
      "It's hard to learn, easy to fight." A.V.Suvorov. soldier
  11. kartalovkolya
    kartalovkolya 24 October 2015 18: 17 New
    +5
    Soldiers are losing battles, but generals are winning! And who, in your opinion, agree to write about his mistakes and miscalculations, but here Stalin is no longer alive, so why not blame everything on him, and put yourself in the role of the savior of the Fatherland, especially when you have already seized power (that's me about Nikita, after all, with his light "Trotskyist" hands, they so zealously poured mud on Stalin) ?! And enough to water each other with slops, but it would be better to look for the truth together!
    1. EvgNik
      EvgNik 25 October 2015 06: 07 New
      0
      Quote: kartalovkolya
      It would be better if together we searched for the truth!

      But do not look for her, because Pliny says: In vino veritas ...
      1. kartalovkolya
        kartalovkolya 25 October 2015 09: 12 New
        +1
        And one ancient Greek about your "truth" said: "Drunkenness is voluntary madness"! And the TRUTH is above all in the TRUTH itself!
    2. _GSVG_
      _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 15: 07 New
      0
      Why look for it, just open the archives, invite patriotically minded young historians there, and not those senile people who did their associate professors and professorships on the "History of the KPSS", and now they think that it would be time for peace and who cares , from which NPO, that peace will be.
      And let those young historians keen on the history of their homeland write everything as it is, without bleaching and not pouring mud.
  12. NDR-791
    NDR-791 24 October 2015 18: 33 New
    +9
    The official history of Britain’s participation in World War II covers several dozens of volumes, although the efforts of the British in all theaters of operations are unlikely to make at least a fifth of ours.
    Kappesdorf village, a suburb of Berlin. There is a memorial to the fallen Germans. On the left are the surnames, and on the right are the geographical names ... I won’t list the surname, who wants to find the photo itself, but the names in order, and this is so, excerpt ...
    U-298 Atlantic, Russia, Russia, Russia, Ukraine, Africa, Russia 1941, Norway, Russia, Russia Seltzo village, Russia, Ukraine, Ukraine, Russia died in captivity 1945, Belarus Minsk, Russia, Poland 1944, Russia village Konura, Konigsberg Defense, Belarus, Sicily 1943, Poland 1944, Russia, East Prussia 1944, Russia, Berlin, Russia, Russia ...
    The Germans know too well who actually won the Second World War. Oh proud Britons, break off, it was NOT YOU ...
  13. individual
    individual 24 October 2015 18: 43 New
    +1
    Sofa philosophers intrigue past history.
    The main fascism, its den Berlin fell before Soviet soldier!
    1. razzhivin
      razzhivin 24 October 2015 19: 41 New
      +3
      In addition to Berlin, do not forget about Tokyo ... but there, far from all war criminals were punished according to their deserts - these same Anglo-Saxons intervened ... saved ...
    2. _GSVG_
      _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 15: 14 New
      0
      Then there is a kind of hitch, fascism has moved to another den, and it inspires everyone that it does not exist, and finally - it’s good, and those who fascism once broke and their descendants - they are bad.
      So, you can’t be silent.
  14. moskowit
    moskowit 24 October 2015 19: 10 New
    +1
    The Internet is a good thing. I immediately found the entire bibliography of the author. Now I will get acquainted with the book "10 myths ..." I have read corned beef for a long time, it will be possible to understand the position of the author ...
    1. tasha
      tasha 24 October 2015 19: 55 New
      0
      Too S.Kremlyov-Brezkun is emotional. And the water as it pours, pours, swim later.
      Look on the Internet, for example, Fedor Viktorovich Lisitsyn. On the filibust there is a selection from the forum. Though scraps, but get more information and not sleep.
  15. cniza
    cniza 24 October 2015 19: 55 New
    +2
    Quote: individ
    Sofa philosophers intrigue past history.
    The main fascism, its den Berlin fell before Soviet soldier!




    They are like black diggers trying to get something on the glory of others.
  16. Vladimir K
    Vladimir K 24 October 2015 20: 37 New
    +5
    What to talk about. Have you watched the film "Triumph of Will"? There the Fritzes, as early as 34, are marching to the envy of the Chinese. Mobilized, with fully equipped military units, charged with the spirit of Prussian militarism, the Wehrmacht represented an irresistible force in June 41st. There could be no other. We can talk about the total superiority of the Germans in the air, the erroneous strategic message about the war on foreign territory, about the unpreparedness (surprise attack) for a worthy meeting of the enemy, but this is not the main thing. In any case, the Germans with tank wedges (after the air raid) would have opened our defenses stretched for 2 thousand km. from the Baltic to the Black Sea. Our victory is in the self-sacrifice of the people, and whoever says anything - in the correct leadership on the organization of defense, as well as in the ability to move about 1500 enterprises beyond the Urals in a short time and provide them with everything necessary for smooth operation. Only with a lot of blood our army learned to fight and the result is known. As for all the information about the beginning of the war, now it is difficult to find the truth. The Khrushchev era worked here, and besides this, it is possible that certain authors (or representatives of the military elite) conceal (distort) facts at a later time. No wonder they say: the truth is somewhere out there.
  17. Denis_469
    Denis_469 24 October 2015 20: 48 New
    +6
    Article wasted. Just today I read a dissertation defended in our Ministry of Defense for the 1st World War. Horror and horror. As I learned the dissertation was approved unanimously. Personally, I did not find anything that would say that when writing it, documents were used. I looked at the part of the description of the fighting of submarines and did not find anything there that would say that the author of the type of scientific work used documents when writing. Not a single document was used at all. What else can we talk about when the scientific council unanimously accepts open falsification? And the text of the dissertation itself is similar to that. what Rezun could write for example. To understand what I mean, here is a link to my personal opinion: http://sovpl.forum24.ru/?1-1-0-00000445-000-120-0#108

    What kind of fight against falsifications can be said now, when for our Ministry of Defense there are quite enough "works", such as historical ones, in which the author did not bother to use documents at all and used only rumors and gossip ... Now with the history of darkness and horror. Truth is not needed by anyone, not even the Defense Ministry itself.
    1. _GSVG_
      _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 15: 20 New
      +1
      It is such an impression that no one needs, especially the upper classes from power and from historical science.
  18. Michael - 235
    Michael - 235 24 October 2015 21: 03 New
    +1
    The author's phrase "LOGIC AGAINST MEMOIRS" comes into clear contradiction with the author himself. Discussing the inconsistencies of the Red Army commanders in military memoirs, the author forgets that these memoirs were written by specific participants in specific events, described as they saw it. The author himself (being in absolutely calm external environment, has a lot of literature and documents at hand), meticulously going through each of the sources, tries to express an opinion that will satisfy his inner desire and the task he has set himself for this purpose. And its result is the fulfillment of this particular task set for himself ...
    But the result of military memoirists is the ultimate Victory that they could gain all over the place in the GREAT COUNTRY (despite terrible obstacles, burdens and torments) .In contrast to them, the actions of the author in the considered actions are immeasurably less, and his goal is incomparably insignificant.
    A VICTORY OF A COUNTRY needs to be respected and cherished, and not fruitlessly arguing upholding a personal reputation.
  19. Vega
    Vega 24 October 2015 21: 04 New
    0
    History is written by the winner, but all sorts of "analysts", "historians", by which I mean Suvorov and Co. are trying to rewrite it for the sake of both themselves and the customers of rewriting. How did he discover how smart and talented he is. Ask these gentlemen: How much did you get paid and who?
    1. razzhivin
      razzhivin 24 October 2015 21: 14 New
      +2
      In principle, who paid, it is no longer a secret - the task is completed "Jerusalem (USSR) is destroyed" ... all the more strange are the efforts of modern "Suvorovs" who continue this theme, and even with attempts of patriotism ...
  20. Vlad5307
    Vlad5307 24 October 2015 21: 10 New
    +3
    As I understand the failure at the beginning of the war, it must be remembered that at that time the commanders of the military districts did not always strictly follow the instructions of the General Staff, but were guided by the situation on the ground. And this was the factor of the unexpected attack, which caused such a rapid advance of the Wehrmacht troops. Otherwise, how can one explain the fact that with a massive raid the air defense did not oppose, but waited, in practice, that they would be bombed? We are unlikely to know the whole truth, but that Khrushchev thoroughly distorted many events is a fact. This was also said by my father, the kingdom of heaven to him, which took part in battles almost from the very beginning of the war! hi
  21. Terner38
    Terner38 24 October 2015 21: 35 New
    +1
    As I read about Zhukov's requests about "combat readiness" immediately the desire to read further disappeared, I recommend the book "If it were not for the generals"
    1. _GSVG_
      _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 15: 22 New
      0
      Interesting, read.
  22. tatarin_ru
    tatarin_ru 24 October 2015 22: 48 New
    0
    Quote: severniy

    it seems to be like that .. but where we did not win the current, and the story is written crookedly .., they seized the Baltic states!, they occupied Western Ukraine, they exterminated the heroes of Bander, Shukhevychs and others! ..,


    The fact is that during the "perestroika" period, we gave up our positions, and so it began, although in the days of the USSR no one could afford it.
    This process is endless and never stops, this is how our world works drinks
    1. _GSVG_
      _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 15: 25 New
      0
      Consequently, our country should lead this process and lead in the direction it needs. smile
  23. zenion
    zenion 24 October 2015 22: 59 New
    +7
    My wife’s grandfather was telling. That he was immediately called upon, Vinnytsia region. They were brought to Vapnyarka, where they were to be washed, dressed and given out weapons. Warehouses were closed. The station was constantly bombed. All the same, they managed to create a train and sent them to Zhytomyr. The same situation as in Vapnyarka. Finally they managed to get to Kiev. There they were bought, dressed up and taken to warehouses for weapons. The rifles were without bolts. One shoulder blade for three. could not find anyone who worked there. They found again some rifles, but there were no cartridges for them. Then in the Arsenal they were given new weapons, there were no blades. It is clear that in this state, they could not be sent to the front. They took this part in which all the old men who fought in World War I near Moscow, were diluted with youth, where they taught to bayonet and shoot. He was wounded in the leg near Moscow, and was sent to a hospital after Moscow. The wounds were festering, the doctors drank alcohol and had fun. In general, the commission arrived and put things in order. After being wounded, he was found to be of limited fit. But he didn’t want to stay in the rear and leaned into the engineer units. He fought until the end of the war. He did not like to tell much. Unless the war veterans gathered for a hundred grams and then something could be heard. But still scary.
  24. Fight cat
    Fight cat 24 October 2015 23: 16 New
    -6
    The generals lost the war, and the soldiers, contrary to the generals, marshals and all sorts of Stalin, won it !!! soldier Try to prove the opposite, Stalin is the leader of the country, the generals are his direct subordinates that they did not know about the troops accumulated in front of the German border, they just believed that 200 divisions in order to transfer them later to the capture of Great Britain. Or did they do it specifically so that the people would die as much as possible !!! That was the plan of Stalin and Camarilla, they put it into practice with systematic stubbornness, all these fans of the megandavid! 30 million victims in the war, demographically we lost even more, before that, 700 thousand people were shot in two years, hunger, real genocide by hunger, so much under the tsarist government did not die of hunger, before that 7-10 million people died in the civil war. and how the apotheosis of the annihilation of the people of 154 million rims .... That's how the Soviet government fought for the happiness of the people inhabiting a large part of Eurasia!
  25. Hardy
    Hardy 24 October 2015 23: 27 New
    +1
    Quote: 79807420129
    Dear Hardy, you probably have scribbles such as Viktor Suvorov (Rezun) or Igor Bunich, because this nonsense repeats what you wrote and you don’t need to rewrite history, my grandfathers would have read if I had read it, I won’t continue , and catch the minus from me.

    You know, I understood that now hurray patriots with brainwashed attack me.
    After all, after the death of Stalin, the corrupt leadership of the USSR did everything to find a new owner in the face of the West, and so that the people would not interfere with this, they thoroughly inspired an inferiority complex. No, that you, as we could want to seize Europe, well, it just happened by chance. And they handed over to transnational business both us and Europe.
    Tell me, what's wrong with that, we wanted to capture the whole world and bring our cultural values ​​to it? Why do you think we did not have the right to want to free Europe from fascism? Or do you think we did not fight in Spain, did not defend our values?
    Maybe we are now in vain and moved to Syria VKS?
    1. _GSVG_
      _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 15: 35 New
      0
      Amendment, the world Vissarionitch did not want to capture, but wanted to free from imperialists and capitalists.
      Create socialist states of equality and respect for people of work.
      This, I think, many of the parents of comrades on this site have seen firsthand. Unfortunately, after the murder of Vissarionych, the socialist system, to put it mildly, began to mutate and came to 91.
      By the way, reading your first post, I also thought - "Suvorov-Rezun was re-read by a man." laughing
  26. Tra-ta-ta
    Tra-ta-ta 24 October 2015 23: 50 New
    +1
    Brezkun / Rezun = 0: 1
    Rezuna / Suvorova read and in many places I agree with him ...
    Your handwriting does not reach me ...
    As the saying goes: blurred speech comes from blurred thoughts ... And it’s too late for you to write.
    Many? Signs I have lost after Rezun’s books, written on the basis of painstaking and analytical studies of archives ..
    The fact that he pulled the cordon, saving the family - I do not blame. He didn’t surrender anyone ...
    In your article - golem question marks ..
    I feel that Rezun wouldn’t even talk to you ...
    Mr. Brezkun probably has no idea how it was possible in 41 so retreat due to the lack of maps of the terrain of our commanders .., and when they shout from the headquarters, -Take the height in the village of Ivanovo ..! And in the district of these Ivanovka from the heels will be ...
    Just remember "Burnt by the Sun" when the driver was looking for the village ...
    Are you lost in the forest in one sq. Km ... But how to manage the front without maps ..?
    1. _GSVG_
      _GSVG_ 26 October 2015 15: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: Tra-ta-ta
      The fact that he pulled the cordon, saving the family - I do not blame. He didn’t surrender anyone ...

      If Rezun hadn’t handed over, he would not have needed the Saxons, in his Aquarium he mentioned how he could be useful and interested in the Saxons so that they would start talking to him, so don’t ....
      I handed over everything and everyone.
  27. Hardy
    Hardy 25 October 2015 00: 24 New
    +4
    Quote: Etric
    Judging by your speeches, you grabbed at the top of scraps of knowledge and carry nonsense. Finland was offered excellent conditions for the exchange of territory. After all, it was possible to shell Leningrad directly from Finland, and this did not suit the government, and the fact that the seizure of land and the movement of the border was a result of the war, this decision is right and wrong for us not to judge. The question is different why there was such poor command and control.
    Further, after the Soviet-Finnish war, the USSR was expelled from the League of Nations and we would start the first war it is not yet known if the Germans would not have united with the British for a general war against us. So not everything is so simple

    And now, excellent conditions to shell us from anywhere in the world. You suggest everyone to move to the moon))))
    And I’m talking about that, that under Stalin, Russia always acted decisively and was ahead of the enemy. So why do you think that Stalin, who managed to create a coalition, being sanctioned in a ring of hostile states, for 15 years turning a ruined agrarian country into a superpower, suddenly dumbed before the German attack, was frightened of Hitler and could not organize defense?)))))
    And why do you think that everything was perfect in the Wehrmacht? The memoirs of German aces have been read?))) Yes, always in any army, if you drip, it is generally unclear how it fights and if you wish, you can find any examples. Only these particular examples do not prove anything. You need to look at the situation as a whole and then it turns out that on June 22, 1941. the Soviet army was the strongest in the world, and it proved it by taking Berlin in May 1945. But Stalin’s mistake was, he underestimated some of the factors and Hitler’s stupidity, so it’s a war, once and for all ...

    But if you discard your empty accusatory pathos, then what am I wrong? Do you think Stalin did not want to protect our country by capturing Europe and possibly the whole world? And why then do you think the Bolsheviks took power in Russia?))) Do you think they were so naive and believed in the brotherhood of nations, universal love, friendship and chewing gum?)))) Do you think they didn’t understand why multinational companies brought to power an unknown demoniac artist, pumped him with money, and then armed and surrendered to Europe ...
    Why are we still embarrassed to recognize those of us as a great empire having its own views on the world order? After all, the greatness of that victory is not that Hitler was knocked down, but that our country gave the world an alternative to the corrupt Western usurious culture. Now I don’t even give ratings, in Western culture there is as much beauty as in terrible Soviet culture. But the culture of the West is based on animal instincts. And Russia (by the way, from a Western perspective, but reworking for itself ...) for the first time offered the world a culture based on not human or religious, but human values. It was not by chance that it was we who opened the way to space, the west could have done it before us, it just didn’t even occur to them.
    1. Tra-ta-ta
      Tra-ta-ta 25 October 2015 01: 12 New
      +4
      Guys, listen to Hardy - this is a new way of thinking on the site ..!
    2. Fight cat
      Fight cat 25 October 2015 19: 05 New
      0
      at the initial stage, the Communists themselves sponsored Hitler, except for the Communists themselves, so they didn’t see a damn thing if before the war itself there were several times warnings not to give in to provocation, believing Hitler that some German generals want to start a war between them! hi
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 26 October 2015 18: 00 New
        +1
        Quote: Fighting Cat
        the Communists initially sponsored Hitler themselves

        This is when they managed it?
        Quote: Fighting Cat
        if before the war itself there were several times warnings not to succumb to provocation, believing Hitler that some German generals want to start a war between them!

        Say thanks to the intelligence service that fed the General Staff with such perfect diso that the hair stands on end. For 3 pre-war months, intelligence three times announced an imminent attack and twice disavowed its messages.
        And what’s the worst thing is that the information regularly went: the Reich will not wage war on 2 fronts, they will first solve the problem with Britain, before the start of the war there will be diplomatic claims. And just this information was not refuted - but in many ways it was it that caused the defeat of our army in the Border Battle.
        For the leadership and the General Staff were confident: we have time, and if the enemy is going to attack, then everything will be like with Poland or Finland: negotiations, a "threatened period" and time for mobilization. A sudden attack without a declaration of war by the mobilized army was not expected.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 October 2015 17: 54 New
      +1
      Quote: Hardy
      Do you think Stalin did not want to protect our country by capturing Europe and possibly the whole world? And why then do you think the Bolsheviks took power in Russia?)))

      Do you consider Stalin a Bolshevik !? belay
      Yes, he is a terry counterrevolutionary, transplanted the entire revolutionary guard and put in its place the officials from the party. And he, instead of promoting the world revolution on the bones of the Russian people, made an agreement with world imperialism and began, with the help of the exploiters, building socialism in a single country. Lev Davydovich will not let lie. smile
      Incidentally, Judas is a great example of how Stalin treated the "Bolsheviks."
      Quote: Hardy
      Do you think they didn’t understand why multinational companies brought to power an unknown demoniac artist, pumped him with money, and then armed and surrendered Europe ...

      And tell us - why is it Britain and the United States created Adolf? Is it really for the sake of some kind of Russia there, which until 1939 was even afraid of the combined army of Finland, Poland and Romania? I’m not joking - these three countries covered our forces on ETVD like a bull to a sheep. For in the Red Army in the mid-30s there were only 25-35 personnel divisions from Leningrad to Vladivostok. And half of them are in the Far East.
      Adolf is a product of the internal European policy of "checks and balances", which the Yankees successfully used to prepare for the future weakening of Europe. The USSR was not the main target of the future Reich ... otherwise in 1939 we would have seen the German-Polish army at our borders.
  28. Zaval
    Zaval 25 October 2015 15: 10 New
    +1
    The worst thing in history is its constant interpretation for the sake of the current political regime and rulers. The most striking and relevant example: today's Ukraine. But this does not mean that only Ukraine suffers from this disease. It is inherent in all states, not to recall inconvenient facts of history, to present recent historical events in a light favorable for the current moment. This was also the case in the USSR, and Russia is not without this disease. History should not only be read but also revered, and from various sources, if it is not possible to read the source, any opinion of persons setting out historical facts to be questioned, to form their opinion. To be ashamed of your story, even if some events are uncomfortable is not worth it. Thanks to all that was, we became what we are. To study, evaluate the causes and consequences in order not to repeat mistakes and prevent distortion of history.
  29. Vladycat
    Vladycat 25 October 2015 17: 09 New
    +1
    During my studies, I wrote a report on the events of July 41. On the whole, my opinion is the betrayal of the top military leaders. Which in some cases resemble modern liberals. In Rokossovsky’s memoirs it was said that, unlike the Far East, where he served, there was no such thing in the West as the interaction of neighboring parts. And he built it whenever possible. Moreover, we had the peculiarities of counting units according to documents and not to fact. There is a mechanic team on the map and do not care that in fact there are 20 tanks. Also, the withdrawal of artillery before the attack. In short, basically, the jambs were in the western direction, the Balts were holding normally, and the Kievites even knocked out the enemy abroad. But everyone had to refuse to align the front.