Military Review

Concern "Kalashnikov" put the Russian Defense Ministry the first batch of guided missiles "Whirlwind-1"

71
The Kalashnikov Concern, part of the Rostec State Corporation, in the framework of the execution of the state defense order (GOZ) delivered the first batch of Whirlwind-1 guided missiles to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.




Guided missile "Whirlwind-1" is designed to destroy armored vehicles, as well as low-speed air targets. The maximum firing range is up to 10 km, while launches can be carried out from a height of up to 4 thousands of meters.

“Today, the Kalashnikov Concern has already begun the serial assembly of products, and the fulfillment of obligations under the state contract for the manufacture and supply of Vortex-1 guided missiles for the needs of the Russian Defense Ministry does not cause any concerns,” said Alexey Krivoruchko, general director of Kalashnikov Concern . “The first batch of missiles has already been successfully delivered to the state customer.”

Concern "Kalashnikov" became the winner of the competition of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation in July 2013. According to the contract, the company must manufacture and deliver the Whirlwind-1 guided missiles to the Ministry by the end of 2015. The total cost of the state contract is about 13 billion rubles.
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  1. Magic archer
    Magic archer 23 October 2015 10: 53 New
    15
    Is the control system the same? By the laser beam? When we are already realizing a shot-forget?! The helicopter needs to hang and highlight the target while the rocket is flying! And at that time he himself is an excellent target ...
    1. Petrol
      Petrol 23 October 2015 11: 08 New
      +1
      so the vortex is replaced by an attack less time to shine
      1. aktanir
        aktanir 23 October 2015 11: 21 New
        +6
        Why don't I hang the helicopter? usually there are two people in the cockpit of combat helicopters, one controls and can easily control itself, while the second directly carries out tracking of the target. Or am I wrong, who can tell?
        1. Eugene-Eugene
          Eugene-Eugene 23 October 2015 11: 51 New
          -5
          Concern "Kalashnikov" put the Russian Defense Ministry the first batch of guided missiles "Whirlwind-1"
        2. Kalmar
          Kalmar 23 October 2015 11: 56 New
          +8
          Why don't I hang the helicopter? usually there are two people in the cockpit of combat helicopters, one controls and can easily control itself, while the second directly carries out tracking of the target. Or am I wrong, who can tell?

          The bottom line is that while the missile flies to the target, the helicopter must keep this target in direct line of sight, which creates an unnecessary temptation for enemy air defense systems.

          The “shot-and-forget" concept is gaining fashion: after launch, the rocket independently tracks the target, and the carrier (helicopter) can immediately hide behind hills / trees without flashing before anti-aircraft gunners.
          1. Saburov
            Saburov 23 October 2015 13: 33 New
            14
            The shot-and-forget system has a number of disadvantages both from a tactical and technical point of view.
            Missiles, regardless of their combat mission, are divided into three groups:
            _ passive guidance
            _ semi-active guidance
            _ active guidance.
            The principle of passive guidance is based on the target’s own radiation (thermal or radio radiation), in this case the missile is equipped with the so-called 'homing head', which brings the missile to the target. The advantage of this principle is that the operator works on the principle of "let-forget", hence the main drawback, if necessary, it is impossible to intervene in the guidance process. The probability of hitting a target with such a missile is rather low, approximately 0,3-0,4. This principle of guidance has become widespread in man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS).
            The principle of semi-active guidance is based on external illumination of the target from an external source (radar laser beam), in this case the missile is also equipped with a homing head, but strictly tuned to the emitter code. With this guidance method, the operator must illuminate the target until it is hit by a rocket. The advantage of such guidance lies in the possibility of 'highlighting' the target from another (not installed on the carrier) source, in which case the carrier will be able to act on the principle of 'let-forget.' The possibility of re-targeting the rocket by the operator is virtually eliminated. The disadvantage of this guidance method is that the missile is capable of self-re-targeting to a brighter target (the case when a Ukrainian aircraft was hit by a Ukrainian anti-aircraft missile). The probability of hitting a target with such a missile is approximately 0,6-0,7 (for laser illumination more than 0,8). This guidance principle is used in obsolete anti-aircraft missile systems, as well as in both versions (for the AGM-114A laser, for the AGM-114 B radar) ATGM 'Hellfaer'. The principle of active guidance is based on the direct control of the flight of a rocket (via radio, or wires) by an operator (automatic) located on the carrier. The advantages of this method are that the operator has full control of the guidance of the rocket, the defeat of the 'false' target is practically excluded, there is the possibility of re-targeting. The disadvantage is that the operator is obliged to carry out the guidance of the rocket until it meets the target. The probability of defeat is more than 0,8. Most modern anti-aircraft missile systems, ATGMs "Sturm" and "Attack", as well as outdated (guided by wire), but still in service with the US Army ATGM "Tou", work on this principle.
            1. Saburov
              Saburov 23 October 2015 13: 36 New
              10
              The same goes for the Hellfire missile, it is not guided by the radar, it is a 'semi-active' missile that requires target illumination with a coded laser beam, or radar radiation from an external source. It sounds beautiful, but it doesn’t have any special advantages over the Sturm and Attack missiles, while the Hellfire-A has very serious shortcomings, disruption of guidance in the conditions of smoke and dust (which is almost always present in the combat area) the impossibility of aiming at targets that do not have a reflective surface (embrasure of the bunker), the impossibility of using at night. It was for the possibility of night use was developed 'Hellfire-B'. But along with the aforementioned advantage, this missile received such disadvantages as a high probability of spontaneous re-targeting, a unmasking homing process and what is also a higher cost. Amazingly, the Hellfire rocket, of both modifications, has a subsonic speed, 4km distance. it arrives in 15 seconds (for comparison, the "obsolete" Sturm rocket overcomes the same distance in 9 seconds). In order to overcome the declared maximum range of 7 km. The Hellfire missile will take 22 seconds, perhaps the tank crew will have time to drink coffee before proceeding with the installation of a smoke screen, or passive interference. The installation of a smoke screen (the most common way to mask armored vehicles) is not always effective against the Sturm missile. It is enough for the operator to see a fragment of the target (or the contours of the target) through the smoke screen to hit the target. It is also very likely that a completely invisible target is struck if its position is known (it was possible to detect before setting the smoke screen) relative to visible landmarks. The Hellfire-A missile in these cases is completely useless.
              1. Kalmar
                Kalmar 23 October 2015 16: 33 New
                +2
                The same goes for the Hellfire missile, it is not guided by the radar, it is a 'semi-active' missile that requires target illumination with a coded laser beam, or radar radiation from an external source.

                In general, there are many different “hellfires”. "Shot-forgot" is implemented in modification L. It uses a radar operating in the millimeter range, so that the smoke curtains do not interfere with it. The target is not illuminated by the laser, so the tank may not know until the last moment that it is already being attacked.
                1. Saburov
                  Saburov 23 October 2015 21: 46 New
                  +2
                  So no wonder, but you are comparing a tank against a helicopter. And we talked about the principles of missile guidance, and here you can put one big one, but, firstly, tanks in isolation from the military air defense and attached to them parts of electronic warfare, no one will use in their right mind, and just the principle shot and forgot is the most predictable second, on the AGM-114L Hellfire-Longbow, an active millimeter-wave seeker, and with the advent of the effective use of power electronic warfare to combat high-precision weapons, this is not a problem, it depends on the method of setting interference continuous or pulsed, it is much more difficult if the missile is controlled go through the wires, well, and thirdly, do not forget the technical law — the more complex the product, the more ways there are to act on it.
                  1. Kalmar
                    Kalmar 23 October 2015 23: 02 New
                    +2
                    on the AGM-114L Hellfire-Longbow, an active millimeter-wave seeker, and with the advent of the effective use of power electronic warfare to combat precision weapons, this is not a problem

                    It is possible, but until tests “our electronic warfare against their AGM-114L” have been conducted, all this is very speculative. Maybe they’ll clog the GOS with interference, maybe they won’t.

                    And in general, sometimes it seems to me that modern electronic warfare is perceived almost as an analog of the protective field from Herbert's “Dune”: it is worthwhile to include jammers, and all precision weapons immediately lose their meaning. It only remains that in the bayonet. In fact, the means of electronic warfare are far from omnipotent.
                    1. DobryAAH
                      DobryAAH 24 October 2015 00: 30 New
                      +1
                      They will hammer it unambiguously, because the direct signal at the GSN receiver is higher in level by orders of magnitude than the reflected signal.
                      1. Kalmar
                        Kalmar 24 October 2015 12: 22 New
                        +1
                        They will hammer it unambiguously, because the direct signal at the GSN receiver is higher in level by orders of magnitude than the reflected signal.

                        I would not be so categorical. Recall, say, that any anti-ship missile has an active radar-targeting system, and their potential targets (warships) are equipped with very powerful electronic warfare systems. But these tools alone do not provide reliable protection against anti-ship missiles and only supplement air defense / missile defense.
                      2. Saburov
                        Saburov 24 October 2015 13: 37 New
                        0
                        Quote: Kalmar
                        Recall, let’s say, that any anti-ship missile has an active radar-targeting system, and their potential targets (warships) are equipped with very powerful electronic warfare systems.

                        Naturally, the size of these missiles is incommensurable, much more anti-jamming systems and anti-electronic defense systems (noise immunity) can be shoved into the anti-ship missile systems and all the more so that the AGM-114L Hellfire-Longbow seeker is incomparable in power and size with the anti-ship missile system, and therefore, to bring it out failure or to clog the channel with noise, you need a much more powerful and narrowly focused signal.
      2. GSH-18
        GSH-18 23 October 2015 13: 27 New
        +1
        Quote: aktanir
        Why don't I hang the helicopter? usually there are two people in the cockpit of combat helicopters, one controls and can easily control itself, while the second directly carries out tracking of the target. Or am I wrong, who can tell?

        Well, yes, tracking ONE goal, and the rest will be peeling at you from all the trunks. In addition, the laser illumination of the target hampers the helicopter’s maneuverability until the missile hits the target, otherwise it will be impossible to illuminate if maneuvered as expected.
      3. Koshak
        Koshak 23 October 2015 18: 46 New
        +2
        Quote: aktanir
        Why don't I hang the helicopter? usually there are two people in the cockpit of combat helicopters, one controls and can easily control itself, while the second directly carries out tracking of the target. Or am I wrong, who can tell?

        The target illumination is not carried out manually (by some kind of laser pointer), everything is done by automation. The pilot selects a target on a television or thermal imaging screen and launches a rocket. The laser beam is held on target automatically via a television or thermal imaging channel.
    2. max702
      max702 23 October 2015 11: 59 New
      -3
      It’s like the Whirlwind is faster than the Attack of 610m / s at 550m / s and the first one has laser control and the second has a radicand command that seems to be outdated .. But I shot and forgot to master our industry so far.
      1. Samaritan
        Samaritan 23 October 2015 12: 20 New
        +5
        So straight and could not ??? add more info 100%
        1. max702
          max702 24 October 2015 13: 52 New
          0
          Quote: Samaritan
          So straight and could not ??? add more info 100%

          Well, what is this product called? And not a sample that is being developed, but at least they are TESTING! If it’s not difficult, enlighten the illiterate ...
    3. NordUral
      NordUral 23 October 2015 21: 33 New
      0
      Better not to shine, but to "light up"!
  2. Tambov Wolf
    Tambov Wolf 23 October 2015 11: 20 New
    24
    The helicopter does not hang, as you write, but moves in a circle (the so-called carousel) or in a curve, while simultaneously illuminating the target. You can see googlers on the work of the helicopter pilots.
    Sighting complex I-251V "Shkval-V" is a television equipment, coupled with a laser rangefinder, target designator and equipment for guiding missiles along the laser beam. It is equipped with a system for stabilizing the field of view and a device for automatically tracking the target, based on the principle of remembering the visual image of the target. The television equipment of the complex has a wide and narrow field of view, deviation angles of the line of sight: in azimuth ± 35 °, in elevation from + 15 ° to -80 °. The IT-23MV television indicator is designed to reproduce monochrome images transmitted by the Shkval-V TV system. Information from the external target designation systems of the VTsU is issued to the same indicator. The complex also serves as a search and search system (OPS). The line of sight for finding the target at the request of the pilot deviates automatically or manually from the joystick. After recognition of the target and its capture, the target is tracked automatically.
  3. Mama_Cholli
    Mama_Cholli 23 October 2015 11: 25 New
    +7
    How many seconds do you think a helicopter should be in the tank’s field of view for hitting it from a distance of 10 km, given that the speed of the missile is supersonic?
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 23 October 2015 12: 08 New
      +4
      How many seconds do you think a helicopter should be in the tank’s field of view for hitting it from a distance of 10 km, given that the speed of the missile is supersonic?

      At maximum range, the rocket flies 25-30 seconds. Plus, we don’t forget that the helicopter hangs for some time before launch, looking for and recognizing the target, pointing weapons and all that. In sum, this can give enough time to calculate some sort of air defense system to plummet. Therefore, the helicopter is very interested in hiding as early as possible.
    2. rubidiy
      rubidiy 23 October 2015 12: 37 New
      +7
      supersonic is not so much. The speed of the ATGM Whirlwind is approximately 600m / s. I’ll count for you: a 10km rocket will overcome in at least 17 seconds. To this time, add the target guidance and capture time. And this is with network-centric warfare, when the target has already been detected in advance. And if it is also necessary to detect it ???
      Nevertheless, “experts” who believe that a shot-and-forget missile is needed should not forget that this requires irradiation of the target. Those. suitable for the destruction of firing points, but for the destruction of modern armored vehicles - no. And attack helicopters such as KA-52 are sharpened to combat modern armored vehicles. In this case, the Whirlwind does not irradiate the target.
      You can dream about a rocket with its own automatic homing head on a television channel, but only professionals will say how much it will cost and how effective it is. soldier
      1. Mama_Cholli
        Mama_Cholli 23 October 2015 12: 55 New
        +5
        Thank! Here is toto and it ... And this is at the maximum distance, from 1 kilometer the tank will have a force of 2 seconds. for guidance and retaliation, which is unrealistic in principle.
        My previous comment is addressed to the TS.
        17-20 sec during this time, the tank will still not be able to answer, especially at a distance of 10 km.
        So Whirlwind-1 is quite a normal means to destroy tanks.
        1. Kalmar
          Kalmar 23 October 2015 13: 06 New
          +3
          from 1 kilometer the tank will have 2 seconds of force. for guidance and retaliation

          If the tanks are covered by decent air defense, then they will not get close to 1km, it will be necessary to hit from afar. If there is no air defense, then the tank turns into a sedentary target, here even the "Whirlwind" is not necessary.
          1. Mama_Cholli
            Mama_Cholli 23 October 2015 13: 41 New
            +3
            Quote: Kalmar
            from 1 kilometer the tank will have 2 seconds of force. for guidance and retaliation

            If the tanks are covered by decent air defense, then they will not get close to 1km, it will be necessary to hit from afar. If there is no air defense, then the tank turns into a sedentary target, here even the "Whirlwind" is not necessary.

            Partly you are right, but if you look at the hilly terrain, then the helicopter is quite capable of using tactics of maneuver using the hills as cover. For example, it rises above a hill for 10 seconds and then again behind a hill under cover with the shooting of heat traps. In this case, the helicopter may well approach the tanks for a distance of 1 km or less under cover of hills.
            On the plain, in the desert, as you said, the helicopter will not have such a chance.
            But, for example, against the fight against bans of the IG type, which have no serious MANPADS capable of destroying a helicopter at a distance of more than 5 km, it is not necessary to approach the enemy at close range, since these missiles can burn tanks from a distance of 10 km. Therefore, the pinwheel gallops over a relatively calm area (in terms of air defense) and methodically shoots the technique of baboons or primates.
            1. Kalmar
              Kalmar 23 October 2015 16: 06 New
              +1
              if we consider the hilly terrain, then the helicopter is quite capable of using tactics of maneuver using the hills as cover. For example, it rises above a hill for 10 seconds and then again behind a hill under cover with the shooting of heat traps. In this case, the helicopter may well approach the tanks for a distance of 1 km or less under cover of hills.

              Yes, it is possible. It depends on how well air defense is organized. If anti-aircraft guns are deployed on these same hills, then a helicopter "diving" back and forth can be spotted before it sees / recognizes the target. And then who the first will be in time.

              But for example, against the struggle against the bans of the IG type ...

              In truth, it’s even a pity to spend Whirlwinds on ISIS orangutans, well, perhaps with the aim of practicing. Actually, they themselves understand that a tank in conditions of enemy domination in the air is just a steel coffin, so they prefer to ride on something more nimble, cheap and not so noticeable (there are all kinds of SUVs).
        2. GSH-18
          GSH-18 23 October 2015 13: 39 New
          +2
          Quote: Mama_Cholli
          Thank! Here is toto and it ... And this is at the maximum distance, from 1 kilometer the tank will have a force of 2 seconds. for guidance and retaliation, which is unrealistic in principle.

          You described the super-ideal conditions for a helicopter attack, which is impossible in real life. First you need to find the tank. And they usually hide in urban areas and actively maneuver. Long range detection is not possible. Here is the simplest case of an unsuccessful attack on a tank: A moving tank is captured and illuminated by a laser, the rocket went off and then the tank drove around the corner of the building ... request
          I affirm that laser illumination is relevant only for attack aircraft and bombers. For helicopter missiles, it is flawed; it has a number of disadvantages for use in helicopters.
          1. Mama_Cholli
            Mama_Cholli 23 October 2015 14: 18 New
            0
            Quote: GSH-18
            Quote: Mama_Cholli
            Thank! Here is toto and it ... And this is at the maximum distance, from 1 kilometer the tank will have a force of 2 seconds. for guidance and retaliation, which is unrealistic in principle.

            You described the super-ideal conditions for a helicopter attack, which is impossible in real life. First you need to find the tank. And they usually hide in urban areas and actively maneuver. Long range detection is not possible. Here is the simplest case of an unsuccessful attack on a tank: A moving tank is captured and illuminated by a laser, the rocket went off and then the tank drove around the corner of the building ... request
            I affirm that laser illumination is relevant only for attack aircraft and bombers. For helicopter missiles, it is flawed; it has a number of disadvantages for use in helicopters.

            Yes, I do not argue that the ideal conditions.
            The tank also has an opinion about life expectancy on the battlefield. But the helicopter on the principle of a more maneuverable machine (obviously), and if the tank can only move in two planes, then the helicopter in three. Given the speed and maneuver, a helicopter has more chances for a successful attack on a tank than a tank has in repelling this attack. If we take all the factors, then of course it is not necessary that the helicopter comes out the winner. The battle of a tank and a helicopter can be compared as a battle of a helicopter and an airplane. Who do you think is more likely? )))
          2. Kalmar
            Kalmar 23 October 2015 16: 09 New
            0
            A moving tank is captured and illuminated by a laser, the rocket went and then the tank drove around the corner of the building ...

            It seems to me that in this situation, any GOS will have a breakdown of guidance, regardless of the principles of work. Here, a barrage rocket is already needed, which, having lost the target, will wind circles over the place of its alleged location until it again appears in sight. The Americans seem to be thinking something in this direction, but I have not heard about real products.
        3. rosomaha
          rosomaha 23 October 2015 21: 22 New
          0
          at a distance of 1 km ATGM will work vryatli. There is NAR S-8TS, specially adapted to combat TBT. In general ... at 1 km you still need to be able to get to the tank.
        4. rubidiy
          rubidiy 24 October 2015 00: 23 New
          0
          I apologize. The source with which I checked, lied. smile I correctly remembered: Whirlwind-1 speed = 390m / s, not 600m / s. Those. 10 km overcome in 26 seconds.
          Regarding the "shot-forgot":
          In theory, there is such a Vikhr-M ATGM with 9M227M1, 9M227F, 9M227O-2 missiles. Heat / TV homing head. Speed ​​600m / s. Range up to 15km. But given the fact that Kalashnikov has just mastered Whirlwind-1 now, Whirlwind-M is a dream. With a 9M227M2 shot with a passive radar seeker - even more so.

          Z.Y. the tank will be able to respond to the helicopter with the same ATGM, but there is no detection and capture speed. Most likely, Armata with its headlight and airborne radar will be capable of this, but modern tanks are definitely not. Therefore, it is important not to frighten off. Laser irradiation modern tanks recognize, shoot special smokes and change their location.
          When firing at Whirlwind-1, the tank is not irradiated. Heat / television tracking is carried out automatically after the operator has fixed the target. Those. unless KAZ can bring him down on approach. But firstly, KAZ is expensive, and it’s not even on all modern tanks, and secondly, it doesn’t cover all aspects. In addition, ATGMs are usually allowed in pairs. To be sure. :)
      2. Kalmar
        Kalmar 23 October 2015 12: 55 New
        0
        Nevertheless, “experts” who believe that a shot-and-forget missile is needed should not forget that this requires irradiation of the target.

        What for? GOS can be aimed at the target's own thermal radiation without any external radiation. Similarly, the anti-tank systems of Javelin (USA) and Spike (Israel) work.

        In this case, the Whirlwind does not irradiate the target.

        Missile - no, but the complex as a whole - yes, with a laser.

        You can dream about a rocket with its own automatic homing head on a television channel, but only professionals will say how much it will cost and how effective it is.

        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Спайк_(ПТРК)
        About the cost: somewhere it came across that about 250.000 dollars per shot.
        1. kos2910
          kos2910 23 October 2015 13: 29 New
          +1
          Quote: Kalmar
          which is about 250.000 dollars per shot

          That's the whole point, such systems are much more expensive. And Javelin is not ideal far, how many videos were they flop
          1. Kalmar
            Kalmar 23 October 2015 16: 13 New
            +1
            That's the whole point, such systems are much more expensive

            Naturally. But:
            1. Still much cheaper than a tank;
            2. much cheaper than the loss of a helicopter (especially with the crew).

            In any case, having such systems in the arsenal is advisable. At least for some especially neglected cases when the target is covered by dense air defense. In other situations, of course, the existing complexes with semi-active GOS are quite adequate.
        2. rosomaha
          rosomaha 23 October 2015 21: 35 New
          0
          And did not think about a multi-channel GOS. Amer’s ATGM JAGM (experimental so far) has 3 guidance channels. Her GOS is adapted for the development of the UAB SDB GBU-39 - SDB-2 GBU-53. But while the results do not please them. But the idea was not bad. The combined GOS will consist of 3 channels: infrared (passive mode), semi-active laser (for destroying single targets with minimal contrast) and active radar (will be used in bad weather conditions, as well as in dust and smoke on the battlefield). In addition, it is possible to correct the guidance and flight of ATGMs according to information received from other sources.
  4. figwam
    figwam 23 October 2015 12: 09 New
    +1
    The helicopter needs to hang and highlight the target while the rocket is flying! And at that time he himself is an excellent target ...

    Well, if he hits the tank from 10 km, he will be safe, but if he enters the MANPADS zone, then I hope they will cover them with the Vitebsk or Lever system.
    1. figwam
      figwam 23 October 2015 12: 55 New
      +4
      A little bit about the system
      1. figwam
        figwam 23 October 2015 13: 06 New
        +2
        Implemented in a flight simulator
        1. War and Peace
          War and Peace 23 October 2015 15: 50 New
          0
          what is the reason for abandoning the ka50 in favor of the ka52? after all, also piloting during Vortex attacks on SU25 is probably more difficult than on a low-speed ka50 ...
  5. SPACE
    SPACE 23 October 2015 12: 11 New
    0
    Quote: Magic Archer
    Is the control system the same? By the laser beam? When we are already realizing a shot-forget?! The helicopter needs to hang and highlight the target while the rocket is flying! And at that time he himself is an excellent target ...


    Quote: Manul
    But is it impossible to create an independent optical tracking unit that captures the target and independently illuminates it with a laser? All the minuses and difficulties are clear, and the need for an analogue of Halffier is clear, but such a system would allow the helicopter to maneuver and escape from enemy fire .. what

    Everything has long been created in the Russian army, optical and thermal imaging systems for tracking and target recognition, they themselves can detect the object and highlight it with a laser. This also achieves the principle of "shot-forgot", so that the helicopter does not need to hang and the operator practically has to control the operation of the complex and monitor the progress of the work. Yes, there are limitations, but at such speeds this is not significant, but there are advantages to hitting “other” targets and firing from around the corner.
  6. marlin1203
    marlin1203 23 October 2015 12: 44 New
    0
    Magits Archer (1) RU Today, 10:53 AM
    Is the control system the same? By the laser beam? When we are already realizing a shot-forget?! The helicopter needs to hang and highlight the target while the rocket is flying! And at that time he himself is an excellent target ...

    And not just a target, but a target at an altitude of 4 km i.e. reach shots MANPADS. Sadness however
  7. War and Peace
    War and Peace 23 October 2015 12: 52 New
    0
    Whirlwind1 is Tula development, and there is also STURM-VK / VU is still development of the 70s, but in Syria they are used, ATTACK is a continuation of Sturm, Chrysanthemum is already Kolomensky development of ATGMs ...
  8. GSH-18
    GSH-18 23 October 2015 13: 23 New
    0
    Quote: Magic Archer
    Is the control system the same? By the laser beam? When we are already realizing a shot-forget?! The helicopter needs to hang and highlight the target while the rocket is flying! And at that time he himself is an excellent target ...

    Totally agree with you. We need rockets that do not hinder the actions of a helicopter. A helicopter is not a plane; it flies lower and slower. And they will hit it from the ground from everything that comes to hand, including anti-tank systems. Attack helicopters just need weapons "fired and forgot."
    1. Petrol
      Petrol 26 October 2015 18: 00 New
      0
      we like (when there was a lot of fuss about selling with “bison”) representatives of the Almaz NGO talked about the promising capabilities of multichannel optics and electronics systems where there was an “attack” on the leash of the UAV and the team “didn’t hit” and it was coming from him distribution of goals to the operator according to the threat-importance of the goal
  9. Welcome to hell
    Welcome to hell 23 October 2015 15: 02 New
    0
    The system fired and forgot expensive compared to pointing at the laser beam, and given that the vortex will mainly be used for a distance of 3-5 km, it will reach the target in just a few seconds. Shot and forgotten is usually used for cruise missiles with a long range of fire, and it is impractical to use it for military operations primarily economically, gold missiles are obtained !!!
  • a-cola
    a-cola 23 October 2015 10: 55 New
    +1
    Quote: Magic Archer
    Is the control system the same? By the laser beam? When we are already realizing a shot-forget?! The helicopter needs to hang and highlight the target while the rocket is flying! And at that time he himself is an excellent target ...


    Probably have to wait. Not all at once.
    1. infantryman2020
      infantryman2020 23 October 2015 11: 03 New
      +2
      What does it mean, not all at once? The saga of the Whirlwinds has been going on for many years.

      Not to mention that it raises questions about the feasibility of operating two similar systems - with the Whirlwind and Attack missiles (on the Mi-28).
      1. Vladimir 1964
        Vladimir 1964 23 October 2015 11: 18 New
        +3
        Quote: infantryman2020
        What does it mean, not all at once? The saga of the Whirlwinds has been going on for many years.


        Colleague, how long does the "epic" last with a Kalashnikov assault rifle?
    2. armageddon
      armageddon 23 October 2015 11: 14 New
      +4
      Quote: a-cola
      Quote: Magic Archer
      Is the control system the same? By the laser beam? When we are already realizing a shot-forget?! The helicopter needs to hang and highlight the target while the rocket is flying! And at that time he himself is an excellent target ...


      Probably have to wait. Not all at once.

      Damn ... Well, like children ... Everything depends on the cost of production ... Missiles costing more than a tank lose their meaning ... Perhaps with rare exceptions !!! When the general is in the tank ... That's what they do with laser guidance ... And cheap and cheerful ... !!!
      1. Kalmar
        Kalmar 23 October 2015 12: 02 New
        0
        Missiles costing more than a tank lose their meaning ...

        Come on. With an average cost of AGM-114 of about $ 100.000, the homing variant (114L), I think, should cost no more than 300.000, i.e. at least an order of magnitude smaller than a modern tank. Apparently, the problem is not only in cost.
  • samara-58
    samara-58 23 October 2015 10: 59 New
    +2
    Twenty years have passed ... Perhaps they have become in demand!?!
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. bolat19640303
      bolat19640303 23 October 2015 11: 03 New
      +2
      While there are no MANPADS in Syria - there are very much in demand there.
      1. Kuzhugetovich
        Kuzhugetovich 23 October 2015 11: 07 New
        +2
        And this is a matter of time. I think they’re already going.
        1. veksha50
          veksha50 23 October 2015 12: 32 New
          0
          Quote: Kuzhugetovich
          bolat19640303 Today, 11:03 ↑ New
          While there are no MANPADS in Syria - there are very much in demand there.
          Reply Quote Report Abuse
          2

          Kuzhugetovich Today, 11:07 ↑ New
          And this is a matter of time. I think they’re already going.



          Rather, have arrived ...

          I can’t believe that among the dropped 50 tons of weapons there were no MANPADS ... Moreover, embittered Saudis promised to plant the same air defense systems ...
  • Vadim12
    Vadim12 23 October 2015 11: 08 New
    +1
    "Whirlwind" seems even for the Ka-50 Shark was developed? Is this the same rocket, or is it completely different?
    1. samara-58
      samara-58 23 October 2015 13: 04 New
      0
      Probably one!
  • Manul
    Manul 23 October 2015 11: 12 New
    +2
    But is it impossible to create an independent optical tracking unit that captures the target and independently illuminates it with a laser? All the minuses and difficulties are clear, and the need for an analogue of Halffier is clear, but such a system would allow the helicopter to maneuver and escape from enemy fire .. what
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 23 October 2015 20: 35 New
      0
      The latest modifications of Helfaire shoot already on the principle of shot and forgot.
  • roskot
    roskot 23 October 2015 11: 17 New
    +1
    Started. The first batch has gone. Second get ready ...
  • lav67
    lav67 23 October 2015 11: 22 New
    +1
    Will they use it in Syria?
  • Dimka off
    Dimka off 23 October 2015 11: 23 New
    +7
    Hermes torment but not torture. That's where the system is realized, shot and forgot. And the range is increased decently.
    1. Lt. Air Force stock
      Lt. Air Force stock 23 October 2015 11: 55 New
      0
      Quote: Dimka off
      Hermes torment but not torture. That's where the system is realized, shot and forgot. And the range is increased decently.

      The ground version has 100 kilometers, the aviation version has 20 kilometers.
    2. abc_alex
      abc_alex 23 October 2015 12: 30 New
      0
      And the same problem as all the "alternative" projects of the Tula KBP: without the experience of launching a series of missile systems, the KB cannot create production cooperation for its projects. The same as with the Whirlwind. And, by the way, it’s not the fact that this “first batch” from Kalashnikov is anyway numerous:

      “The Mayak plant of Kirov did not deliver 326 Vikhr-1 guided missiles. The manufactured materiel failed the tests, the characteristics were not confirmed. The catch-up schedules of the enterprise were disrupted.
      A similar situation exists for the supply of Vikhr-1 missiles by the Kalashnikov concern. Not delivered 1972 guided missiles. Reasons: poor processing of design documentation and failure to carry out full-fledged production launching activities; said Deputy Defense Minister Yu.I. Borisov at a single day for the acceptance of military products July 16 2015 year."

      So the problems of homing "Tula ATGM" are not as great as the problems of their production.
  • aviator1913
    aviator1913 23 October 2015 11: 48 New
    0
    How much by the way is the cost of one launch of such a rocket? And how much is the cost of launching a rocket without laser target tracking?
  • uav80
    uav80 23 October 2015 12: 27 New
    +1
    Quote: aktanir
    while the second is directly tracking the target

    The I-251 automatically accompanies the target so that no one needs to keep anything in sight, and the fact that the carrier cannot be quickly dumped is all the same minus, but if you take into account that the speed of 9M127-1 is about 600 m / s, you need to find a more accurate info, it's the speed of the old 9M127 model, the media doesn’t need to “glow” for so long
  • yanus
    yanus 23 October 2015 12: 42 New
    0
    Urgent send to Syria. X-25 will be boldly launched on Igilovsky pickups, and the whirlwind is still bearable.
    True, there are no carriers in Syria yet. Su-25, but not that modification ....
  • VILEN
    VILEN 23 October 2015 12: 43 New
    0
    Here on the video training on combat use from the Ka-50 simulator, you can see what the pilot has to do to use vortex 1. Perhaps there is something for the friend on the ka-52.
    https://youtu.be/rgfXFG7TpCA
  • gg.na
    gg.na 23 October 2015 12: 49 New
    0
    It is much better than nothing! But generally good good things! I will soon develop a new, more advanced guidance system and it will be so SHOT and FORGOTTEN! Everything has its time! And it is necessary to make such a system so that it could be ahead of other similar systems for many years! wink
  • 2806 Mikhail
    2806 Mikhail 23 October 2015 16: 11 New
    0
    I have a question, the reaction time of the MANPADS and the flight speed of an anti-aircraft missile? How much is the reaction time of the enemy’s air defense in general. And then it’s time to think for a long or short 17 seconds per 10 km.
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 23 October 2015 16: 54 New
      0
      My question is, the reaction time of MANPADS and the flight speed of an anti-aircraft missile?

      The “needle” captures the target somewhere within a second. Everything else already depends on the operator and the general situation. Say, if the helicopter has already managed to “light up” while it was looking for targets, then its next appearance from behind the hills can already be immediately met by a volley of missiles. Or maybe it will turn out that the air defense will look in the wrong direction until the very last moment.
  • 2806 Mikhail
    2806 Mikhail 23 October 2015 16: 28 New
    0
    And one more question, how long does it take to capture the target’s homing head? I forgot when I shot it. I heard this decent time with the javelin and how much it differs from the vortex? And how about an attack of non-contrasting targets? What should I do?
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 23 October 2015 16: 58 New
      0
      what about attacking non contrasting targets?

      In the case of the "javelin" - no way. This is a pure anti-tank complex; Bunkers of all sorts of them can not crumble. Therefore, as before, no one writes off the good old active and semi-active complexes.
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 23 October 2015 17: 17 New
    0
    With a shot - scoring is also not so simple. Possible options are optical homing, infrared homing, radar homing, laser target illumination by unauthorized citizens or with an UAV. With all these things, in principle, we have long learned to fight, more or less. The most effective radar remains homing, but here we unfortunately do not have all the glory of God. Large radars with crews are excellent, but small ones with a computer so far.
  • Goldmitro
    Goldmitro 23 October 2015 19: 06 New
    0
    The first batch of missiles has already been successfully delivered to the state customer. ”

    And in the near future it will be tested under the conditions of "as close as possible to the fighting", since this opportunity is now available!
  • Anchonsha
    Anchonsha 23 October 2015 19: 55 New
    0
    Well, that’s good, just wonderful. NATO, fear the power of Russia and do not go to our lands, get out of the countries of Eastern geyropa so that there are no misunderstandings.
  • rubidiy
    rubidiy 24 October 2015 00: 33 New
    0
    Quote: Kalmar
    In sum, this can give enough time to calculate some sort of air defense system to plummet. Therefore, the helicopter is very interested in hiding as early as possible.

    Here comes the standard fight between firing ranges and detection. A soldier with MANPADS or armored vehicles with ATGM helicopters at 8-10km will not be corny. They will count the flies until it arrives. For this, Tunguska was invented.
    1. Kalmar
      Kalmar 24 October 2015 02: 19 New
      0
      A soldier with MANPADS or armored vehicles with ATGM helicopters at 8-10km will not be corny.

      I’ll take action: for 8-10 km MANPADS does not pose a threat, because it does not shoot so far. Well, an ATGM to bring down an attack helicopter is always on the verge of fantasy :)

      By "SAM" I meant something more adult, like the same "Tunguska" or "Shell", capable of quickly detecting targets at long ranges.
  • rubidiy
    rubidiy 24 October 2015 00: 48 New
    0
    Quote: Kalmar
    In any case, having such systems in the arsenal is advisable. At least for some especially neglected cases when the target is covered by dense air defense. In other situations, of course, the existing complexes with semi-active GOS are quite adequate.

    I agree. I wrote about it above.
    Those. Whirlwind-1 is sufficient for current conditions. Whirlwind-M with IR / TV missiles ГСН (9М227М1, 9М227Ф, 9М227О-2) and 9М227М2 with a passive radar seeker have yet to be mastered. So far, there are no analogues of Armata to NATO troops en masse, there is time.
  • Hornet
    Hornet 25 October 2015 11: 17 New
    0
    Quote: Kalmar
    Nevertheless, “experts” who believe that a shot-and-forget missile is needed should not forget that this requires irradiation of the target.

    What for? GOS can be aimed at the target's own thermal radiation without any external radiation. Similarly, the anti-tank systems of Javelin (USA) and Spike (Israel) work.

    In this case, the Whirlwind does not irradiate the target.

    Missile - no, but the complex as a whole - yes, with a laser.

    You can dream about a rocket with its own automatic homing head on a television channel, but only professionals will say how much it will cost and how effective it is.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Спайк_(ПТРК)
    About the cost: somewhere it came across that about 250.000 dollars per shot.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 25 October 2015 22: 22 New
    0
    If you do not focus on Shot and forget, it is important to implement the principle of shooting at once for several purposes. The result will be equivalent.