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Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62х39

Currently, one of the most famous cartridges in the world is the Soviet cartridge caliber 7,62x39, which is inextricably linked with the fate of the Kalashnikov assault rifle. Adopted in 1949, the Kalashnikov assault rifle was created specifically for this ammunition. Only at the beginning of the 1970-s was replaced by a new 5,45X39-mm cartridge, but to this day the cartridge 7,62x39 mm remains one of the most common and widespread in the world. It is considered the third power among all automaton cartridges.


Experts in the field stories making firearms weapons agree that the Soviet cartridge caliber 7,62x39 mm appeared under the influence of the German cartridge 7,92x33 mm or 8 mm "Kurz". In fact, the Soviet model of the patron has become an improved version of the German concept in terms of its shape and efficiency. The 8 mm “Kurz” cartridge was used on the Eastern Front for the first time during World War II, while both German and Soviet troops appreciated its effectiveness quite well. Thus, the German intermediate cartridge and small arms under it gave impetus to Soviet research in this area.

The first work on the development of an intermediate cartridge in the Soviet Union began in the 1939 year, but the question of their creation was raised even earlier. To study this issue in the USSR, a cartridge of the caliber 5,45 mm was created, and even a task was given to create a self-loading rifle for a new cartridge. But due to the outbreak of the Great Patriotic War, Soviet designers temporarily switched to more relevant types of work. As a result, the creation of an intermediate patron was returned only in 1943 year, after members of the Technical Council of the NKV (People’s Commissariat of Armaments) got acquainted with captured samples of German weapons at the front, as well as provided by the USSR for familiarization with the American self-loading carbine M1.



Most of all, the attention of Soviet gunsmiths was attracted by the new German cartridge caliber 7,92х33 mm, specially designed for the MKV 42 [N] carbine, which was tested in the army. This cartridge has a total length of 48 mm (33 mm sleeve length) had a mass of 16,2 gram. With the mass of the 8,2 bullet itself gram and initial speed of about 700 m / s, this cartridge provided accurate shooting at a distance of up to 800 meters. At the meeting, it was decided to create a reduced-power cartridge in order to replace the rifle cartridge in such weapons as the light machine gun and the self-loading (automatic) rifle, as well as new models of small arms specially designed for it. The new intermediate cartridge could be the basis for the development of light individual automatic weapons with a greater range of fire than the submachine guns. Responsible for creating a new cartridge was assigned to OKB-44, which in the future became NII-44, and in 1966 was reorganized into TSNIITOCHMASH. To determine the optimal characteristics of the new ammunition, calculations were made on the choice of mass and bullet speed for 5,6 mm, 6,5 mm and 7,62 mm calibers. These calibers were chosen as the most common in practice.

To the new Soviet cartridge caliber 7,62 mm the following requirements were met: the sleeve must have a modern form - without a flange; weight and dimensions less than the rifle cartridge; cartridge power less by 20% (compared to rifle); the energy of a bullet at a distance of 1000 meters must be no less than 245 J. An intermediate cartridge was created for use in a light machine gun, a self-loading rifle and an automatic carbine machine gun. Small arms, created under the new cartridge, should have been easier, including by reducing the length of the barrel. With the same goal, it was considered possible to use thin rifle barrels for carbines-machine guns (machine guns) without the fear that they would overheat, since the firing basically had to be carried out with single shots and only at the most critical moments of the battle - in bursts.

Taking the point of the report that the flatness of the trajectory is one of the main characteristics for the new cartridge, the OKB-44 specialists from the very beginning of development decided that the new cartridge should be better than the German one. For the German 7,92x33 mm cartridge, the direct shot range (ABS) was 300 meters; for the Soviet cartridge, the DPV was assumed to be equal to 325 meters. Already 3 September 1943, the NKV Technical Council reviewed the first two versions of the cartridge. As a result, a choice was made in favor of one of them, which later received the designation 7,62-mm cartridge model 1943 of the year. After the September meeting, which was attended by all the armory design bureaus and the research and development range of small arms and mortar weapons of the GAU (NIPSMVO), the development of new types of weapons for the advanced automatic cartridge began in the USSR.



Already in December 1943, the first batch of cartridges with a lead core bullet (the cartridge was assigned the index 57-H-231) was tested at the test site. After a slight refinement, starting in March 1944 of the year, the production of an experimental batch of 7,62-mm cartridges of the sample 1943 of the year started. The original version of this cartridge had a sleeve length of 41 mm and a lead core bullet with a short head and no rear cone.

Designed at the same time under the new cartridge samples of small arms - the carbine-automatic (automatic) and self-loading carbine - were primarily intended for firing single shots. It was assumed that the automatic fire will be needed only in melee at a distance of 100-200 meters. Based on this assumption, during the development of the 7,62-mm cartridge of the 1943 model, the focus was on ensuring the required accuracy of fire in single-shot fire, direct shot range and penetration of the bullet. Nobody demanded a high accuracy of fire when using automatic fire from a new cartridge. However, later, when the AK was adopted by the Soviet Army, the main type of firing from a machine gun to increase the density of fire (the number of bullets per linear meter per minute) began to regard fire in lines. Regardless of the distance of the target. In fairness, it can be noted that the probability of hitting a target when firing in bursts grew, but not significantly, while the expenditure of ammunition grew in proportion to the length of the queue.

In the 1944 year, when the hands of the gunsmiths turned out to be the results of the first tests of the new cartridge, work began on improving it in order to improve penetration and accuracy. In the framework of these works, the head (ogival) part of the bullet was lengthened. This allowed to improve the ballistic coefficient with a constant mass of the bullet. Also, the rear cone was inserted in the bullet, which was supposed to serve as a decrease in air resistance during the flight of the bullet. Moreover, as it was then believed, not only at subsonic bullet flight speeds (when firing at a greater range), but also at supersonic flight speeds. In order to preserve the overall length of the cartridge, the cartridge length of the cartridge had to be shortened by 2 mm, and the depth of the bullet in the cartridge was increased. As a result, the sleeve has gained the final length - 38,7 mm (with the designation of the cartridge 7,62х39 the length of the sleeve is indicated rounded). The next stage of work was the replacement of the lead core to the steel.



The bullet, which had a steel core, received the designation - "surrogated." The length of such a bullet has grown from 22,8 mm in the first variant to 26,8 mm. The main argument in favor of using low-carbon steel for the manufacture of the core was not so much the growth of the piercing effect of the ammunition, as the saving of lead (up to 50%), which was then in short supply and high manufacturability of the core forging. The technology of its manufacture was borrowed from the cartridge of the popular TT pistol. It should be noted here that in those years the main criterion for the bullet penetration was the assessment of the possibility of penetration of an army steel helmet at a distance of 800-1000 meters. By the middle of the 1947 of the year, all the deficiencies noted in the test on the 7,62-mm cartridge of the 1943 sample with a conventional bullet were eliminated. GAU decided to release a series of such cartridges and prototypes of weapons for military tests.

In order to increase the tactical capabilities of the small arms under development, as well as on the basis of existing experience in creating 7,62-mm rifle cartridges for various purposes, along with a cartridge equipped with a conventional bullet, a complex of works was carried out to create 1943 patrons of the year with special bullets: armor-piercing (created in 1944 year), tracer and incendiary (created in 1948 year). In the 1949 year, simultaneously with the Kalashnikov assault rifle, the 7,62-mm cartridges of the 1943 model of the year with all the bullet types listed were adopted. Further development of the 1943 model cartridge with an ordinary bullet equipped with a steel core was carried out in the direction of increasing its penetration effect (to ensure the defeat of enemy manpower in individual armor protection), and of the tracer cartridge, in the direction of further increasing the tracer burning time and slowing the start time his burning In the development of these cartridges, the use of new types of gunpowder as a charge, in particular, spherical granulation powder, played a significant role.

The priority in creating this type of powder belonged to the United States. The main advantage of spherical granulation gunpowder was that it provided a high gravimetric density (filling density of the liner) - around 0,85 g / cm3, high manufacturability and increased progressiveness of burning. All this together allowed, with an equal size of the charging chamber, to provide the bullet with greater muzzle energy or, with an equal muzzle energy, to reduce the size of the liner.

Soviet 7,62-mm cartridges: rifle, intermediate and pistol


Initially, the new cartridge 7,62x39 was made only with a bimetallic sleeve - steel coated with tompac. However, in the 1948 year, due to difficulties in obtaining a bimetal, most of which was previously supplied to the Soviet Union from the USA under a lend-lease, it was decided to produce an automatic cartridge case from brass-plated steel. The process of brass plating, which the USSR borrowed from German industry, was associated with the use of highly toxic substances. Therefore, after the production of bimetal was mastered in the USSR in 1952, automatic cartridges began to be made again from this material. Subsequently, at about the beginning of the 60 of the last century, some Soviet enterprises mastered the production of a steel lacquered sleeve (covered with green lacquer), which provided substantial savings for the tompac. Already in our time, the production of a steel tube with a polymer coating (a special water-polymer solution) was successfully mastered, which significantly reduced the harmfulness of production.

Gamma ammunition caliber 7,62x39 mm included cartridges with a conventional bullet with a steel core PS (index 57-H-231), and with special-purpose bullets. Such ammunition included: armor-piercing incendiary (BZ, index 57-BZ-231), incendiary (G, index 57-З-231), tracer (T-45, index 57-Т-231 П), armor-piercing (BP, 7 index Н23), as well as 7,62-mm cartridge of sample 1943 of the year with a reduced speed of a bullet (CSS, index 57-Н-231 У). For example, a steel core bullet could pierce a steel soldier’s helmet (helmet) at a distance of 900 meters, and an armor-piercing incendiary bullet at a distance of up to 1100 meters. An armor sheet with a thickness of 7 mm, an armor-piercing incendiary bullet confidently pierced at a distance of up to 200 meters. The use of tracer bullets in firing at moving targets provided the best observation of the shooting results and simplified the aiming of the weapon at the target, as well as the targeting process. Shooting at manpower of the enemy, located in cars, armored personnel carriers and motorcycles, as a rule, was conducted by cartridges with armor-piercing incendiary bullets and bullets with a steel core (in the ratio 1: 1). In addition, the ammunition caliber 7,62-mm sample 1943, and included auxiliary cartridges - idle (57-X-231) and training (index 57-H-231UC). The difference between these cartridges is that the training is used to train soldiers in loading weapons, equipping stores and firing shots, such cartridges do not contain a powder charge. At the same time, blank cartridges are designed to simulate the sound of a shot while training soldiers, as well as for weapons salute.

Patron in the market of civilian weapons

Cartridge 7,62x39 mm is loaded into a relatively short one - 39 mm long - flangeless, conical sleeve. While the “elder brother” of this cartridge - the Russian standard rifle cartridge 7,62x54R is fitted with a flange sleeve, which means it is not very well suited for use in automatic weapons - cartridges of caliber 7,62x39 mm are specially optimized for self-loading and automatic firearms. The original 7,62x39 mm cartridge uses a pointed shell bullet of 8 grams. The initial speed of its flight is of the order of 720 m / s at an initial energy level of about 1960 j.



Developed back in 1943, the cartridge was originally conceived for use only for military purposes. Under him in the USSR immediately began the development of a whole family of various firearms - self-loading and shop carbines, machine guns and light machine guns. The 7,62x39 mm cartridge was an intermediate cartridge for lightweight assault rifles that would be easier to handle and could serve soldiers in the ever-changing world of military tactics. The ballistic characteristics of this ammunition were developed based on the destruction of only human targets, without any focus on hunting.

Massive sales of the 7,62x39 mm cartridge on the territory of the former Warsaw Pact countries, as well as in countries formerly belonging to the Soviet Union, significantly affected their availability on the international market for civilian weapons - both for hunting and for sporting purposes. A huge amount of these munitions appeared on the market at the end of the Cold War. The world market is full of proposals chambered for 7,62x39 mm, ranging from classic military designs, for example, AK and SKS, including their civilian versions such as the Ruger Mini-30, and more modern US sports rifles. In some of them, the classic American design AR-15 is combined with the typically Russian caliber 7,62x39 mm.

Some rifles chambered for the 7,62x39 mm caliber, which have a rotatable longitudinal slide and are designed for target shooting and hunting, are also available on the market. Mostly, such models are made in Eastern Europe, for example, the popular Czech hunting rifles of the CZ series. Although some variants of such rifles are also produced by Western companies, for example, the Italian manufacturer Sabatti, which has thus diversified its product line.



And although the 7,62x39 mm cartridge is definitely not the best option in terms of firing accuracy, its characteristics are more than enough for shooting at short distances, especially when it comes to shooting at distances up to 100 meters. In this case, it is undesirable to use weapons of this caliber for firing long distances at a sufficiently serious game, since this caliber does not have enough energy for reliable slaughter action. The caliber 7,62x39 mm can be considered a viable option when hunting for medium-sized game, for example, roe deer, when the distance to the target is no more than 150 meters. Of course, this is not a cartridge for hunting big game, because its slaughter effect may not be enough to guarantee the effectiveness of the hunter's first shot.

Despite these features, 7,62x39 mm cartridges are still popular in Europe and are used with many self-loading rifles, which are used for battled boar hunting. And in the US, this cartridge has become very popular when hunting for various pests, as well as to control the number of foxes, coyotes and other small game. The advantage is that the recoil when firing ammunition caliber 7,62 x39 mm is minimal. This makes the cartridge very popular and enjoyable for use in training and sport shooting, as well as in entertaining shooting popular in some Western countries. The use of such ammunition does not cause fatigue to the shooter, and their self-charging is quite simple.

Information sources:
http://weapon.at.ua/board/11-1-0-31
http://www.dogswar.ru/boepripasy/41-patrony/7581-promejytochnyi-patro.html
https://www.all4shooters.com/ru/glavnaya/boyepripasy/2015-statyi/Boyepripasy-7-62x39mm-vintovochnyy-kalibr-dlya-okhoty-i-sporta
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  1. Igor39 23 October 2015 07: 02 New
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    It was necessary to replace the 7,62x54R with a flangeless one after the war, for example, with 7,62x57.
    1. i80186 23 October 2015 07: 15 New
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      Quote: Igor39
      It was necessary to replace the 7,62x54R with a flangeless one after the war, for example, with 7,62x57.

      And just “throw out” millions of rifles and hundreds of thousands of machine guns? The state destroyed by the war was not ready for such feats.
      1. alex-cn 23 October 2015 07: 31 New
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        Another question is why they did not organize the production of 54 cartridges with a groove, because the same Germans have 8x57 and the one ... and the weapons could be redesigned and changed as the resource was developed ...
        1. i80186 23 October 2015 08: 37 New
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          Quote: alex-cn
          Another question is why they did not organize the production of 54 cartridges with a groove, because the same Germans have 8x57 and the one ... and the weapons could be redesigned and changed as the resource was developed ...

          Well, the main advantage of a cartridge without a flange is the convenience of using a box magazine and that's all. What is the point of it if the machine guns are for a rifle cartridge with a tape supply, and only sniper rifles? smile
          1. tropic 17 December 2015 00: 07 New
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            Oh ho ho.
            And what only people on the Internet does not carry. So the shit cartridge 7,62x39 mm has already become even some, almost great.
            Let me tell you briefly the history of individual automatic weapons in Russia. Maybe she will help someone understand the essence of the matter.
            So, although the so-called Fedorov’s assault rifle (AF) had no consequences in terms of design, but I’ll start from it anyway.
            1. Attempt No. 1a. AF on a 6,5 mm Mauser cartridge with a non-native bullet (it is sometimes called the Fedorov cartridge). Complete and obvious failure. Reasons - Fedorov did not take into account the heat removal of weapons. And the momentum of recoil. As a result, AF, in principle, could not act like an automatic weapon. And if he acted, it was impossible to provide a heap (accurate) automatic fire. These products were transferred to aviation. There, natural airflow was already sufficient, and the simplest machines were used so that at least somewhere you could get out of it. Those. there is a light machine gun, not an infantry machine gun. We will leave its reliability outside the brackets.
            2. Attempt No. 2b. AF on the cartridge Arisaka in caliber 6,5 mm. Fedorov took into account the shortcomings of attempt No. 1. The heat sink was normalized. And the recoil momentum is significantly reduced. Everything is cool? No matter how. In the end, too complete but no longer obvious failure. Following the weakening of the cartridge, the range of the effective defeat quite naturally decreased. Decreased critically. But then it was clear only to specialists. To foreigners. And closer to the 70s, already domestic. And it is not clear to "sofa designers" from this site. In addition, to achieve a heap of automatic fire, too, failed, the recoil was still excessively strong. Those. failure.
            3. Attempt #2. AK-47, the ideological heir to the Sturmgewehr 44, a German ersatz weapon from the time of 2MB. Just like his ancestor was designed based on the maximum possible density of fire. Eventually complete but NOT OBVIOUS FAILURE. Moreover, there are all the same reasons as for attempt 1b. Those. stepped on the mop for the second time. The only difference is that, based on the real TTX, the AK-47 was a so-so assault rifle (some even tend to attribute it to assault rifles, although the NSD does not agree with this). And the attempt No. 1b on the same real TTX was quite a fig machine gun carbine. As they say now, something is between a submachine gun (-) and a submachine gun (+). In this case, both weapons "worked" on the intermediate cartridge. Those. The AK-47 was still much more advanced than AF on the Arisak cartridge. At least the source material (intermediate cartridge) corresponded to the final product (assault rifle). But what a "wise guy" came up with such an ersatz weapon to arm ALL army, this is a big mystery. Nevertheless, in Russia everything is fine with its traditional problems (roads and du * aki). They are present, and in large quantities. It should also be noted that in no country in the world such a "miracle weapon" was no longer mass-produced. And even more so, nowhere did it become the main army.
            Amused the whole honest world, what can I say. Neighing over the USSR from the heart.
            To be continued.
            1. tropic 17 December 2015 00: 11 New
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              3. Attempt #3. The AK-74 is the ideological heir to the American M16A1. In fact, this is the best that was done by Soviet industry. The shortcomings of the AK-47 were taken into account, and from the very beginning the emphasis was on the accuracy of automatic fire. Because it was not possible to balance the design on a cartridge similar to the M16A1 cartridge, it was necessary to weaken it and thereby reduce the recoil momentum. And, as a consequence of this, lighten the bullet and reduce its caliber. Which was done. It would seem, here it is, happiness. The heat sink is normal, the accuracy of automatic fire is normal, the mechanics are normal. What else does? Besides chocolate, by itself? But besides chocolate the army still needs an automatic rifle. And not simple, but advanced, in the SMG version. Like the M16A2-4. But this is a problem. According to TTX, the AK-74 pulled a maximum of an assault rifle (+). Those. on an advanced assault rifle. But not more. Moreover, the plus sign was such a liquid. Well, in those days the USSR could not portray a full-fledged SMG. The technological level of the country did not allow. Today, the Russian Federation, surelycould already. But what to do with the cartridge? The cartridge is old. And unsuitable for gaining new heights. And the new cartridge is money. Big ones. Today is not lifting. And the TTX AK-74 is not so bad. In extreme cases, and with them you can trample.
              That's the whole story. Everything obvious to everyone in the AK-74 is hurt. He has another “Achilles heel”, obvious only to specialists. Insufficient effective destruction range for the main army automatic weapon. Approximately 83% of the norm. With an acceptable minimum of about 91%. This is a very noticeable shortcoming. In this case, the AK-74 can in no way be attributed to the army service automatic weapons, like the American M4A1. Although there is some similarity in their performance characteristics, but in terms of the totality of all the parameters, these are still different things.
              PS. And laudatory articles on the topic of 7,62x39 mm are really funny. Highly. And after all, the profane invent for him some "advantages" there.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. E.S.A. 17 October 2019 15: 23 New
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              Quote: tropic
              AK-47 ... matched the final product (assault rifle)

              What? Since when is the AK-47 (AKM) of the year considered an assault rifle? It is an automatic carbine or assault carbine, as barrel length in calibers carbine. Here is the AK-74 - yes, an assault rifle, because with the same barrel length in millimeters, it is longer in calibers.

              Quote: tropic
              But what kind of “clever man” came up with such an ersatz weapon to arm an entire army is a big mystery.

              What else was needed?
              SCS so were in the rear until the early 80's.
              AKSU is a degraded version of the AKM, suitable for tankers, drivers and doctors, and it’s better to defend some headquarters, communications center, field warehouse of the logistics brigade or tank repair base with full-size machine guns.
              RPK light machine guns with automatic stores are also not an option, because too overall.
              Or weapons of increased accuracy, such as a Nikonov assault rifle? But this is still the cuckoo clock.
              And so full unification of the shooting.

              Mention of the same
              Quote: tropic
              in SMG variant

              - it’s a diagnosis right away that someone wrote, turned on different terms, ignoring Russian terminology. My dear, you don’t admire it there - and you shouldn’t even try, anyway the experience of WWII is an empty phrase for you. Otherwise, I would have understood why the same Americans abandoned the “long oud” of the M16 and switched to the “scrap” of the M4 - because of such a stick-shooter, you see, the M113 armored personnel carrier came out grave-shaped.
              But suppose we take the logic: to equip in the motorized rifle division with automatic rifles only 3,5-4 thousand people, and the rest (sappers, signalmen, artillerymen, chemists, repairmen and others) in an unequal defensive battle with a probable breakthrough, let them use submachine guns ( Submachine Gun) ... and under what cartridge - not 9x18PM hour? Which does not give a breakdown effect or range ... Get rid of the logic! wassat
          2. blog 23 December 2015 00: 35 New
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            Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62х39

            In a huge huge, deep and deep, fetid and fetid puddle, the USSR sat down with a cartridge of 7,62x39mm. Amused the whole honest world with its incompetence. We neighing all from the heart. And, of course, conclusions were drawn.
            And before that they neighed over the 6,35x15mm TC cartridge.
            And then neighing over the cartridge 7,62x25mm TT.
            And after the cartridge 7,62x39mm neighing over the cartridge 9x18mm PM.
            Some clowns, not gunsmiths.
            They did not laugh at a 5,45x39mm cartridge. Just guessed that "could not." “I couldn’t” fully rework the M16A1 in the Soviet manner. Those. on the Kalashnikov’s gutting. Had to do weaker and simpler. That’s why such a cartridge came out.
            Therefore, neigh did not laugh, only giggled sarcastically. Like, throwing dogs and people into space is not a tricky business. And you go SMG (automatic machine in the Soviet way) with TTX automatic rifle do. Yes, and on the intermediate cartridge. Weakly, however.
            And the Americans did. Has long been. M16A2 was called.
            1. E.S.A. 17 October 2019 15: 31 New
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              Quote: blogg
              And you go SMG (automatic machine in the Soviet way) with TTX automatic rifle do.
              SMG is not an automatic rifle, but a submachine gun. SubMachine Gun, however! I have not seen a single "automatic rifle" under a pistol cartridge. Well, except for the Hungarian PP Kirali and the Soviet light machine gun LDA. A laugh. Laughter for no reason is a sign ...

              Quote: blogg
              And the Americans did. Has long been. M16A2 was called.

              Americans laughed at M16 and switched to automatic M4 carbines. Apparently, in the BMD "Bradley" did not fit in ruzhzho.
          3. anew 27 December 2015 20: 32 New
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            Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62х39

            Actually, there is nothing special to discuss here. This is a cartridge holder. The German armourers thus avenged the USSR for the defeat of Germany. How could. By the end of the war in Europe, they had already gained rich experience in using weapons on a similar cartridge. The experience is quite negative. Therefore, when the USSR after the war requested them to develop a similar cartridge and weapons on the USSR for them, they gladly agreed. Moreover, the USSR also paid generously for this.
            When the USSR understood that it was a setup, it is not known for sure. But already in the 70s of the last century, the SA actively began to get rid of weapons on this cartridge. At the same time, the weapon, of course, was "legendary", and the cartridge was "brilliant", like everything in the USSR. The USSR also began to generously distribute these weapons to "friends." As if in debt, of course.
            More than anywhere else in the world, similar cartridges and weapons on them were not produced in a large series for arming the armies of the world. Yes, and shallow, too. Sometimes for special operations in small batches they produce weapons on intermediate cartridges with a classic bullet in the caliber of 6,5-6,8 mm. This is if you need mainly increased penetration to the detriment of many other things. In all other cases, intermediate-power cartridges for the army are issued only with small-caliber, weakly stabilized bullets.
            Although you can still recall the Czech experience. It is actually forgotten, but the concept of the Czechs was quite interesting. Although not without jambs. But small, not at all the level that they received on this "ingenious" cartridge.
            In vain did the USSR at one time listen to the Germans and did not listen to the Czechs. In the field of riflemen in those days, the Czechs were much cooler and more authoritative than the Germans. Not Belgians, of course. And not the Americans. But they also stood very high, the Germans were far from them. It was then, after "socialism", they were blown away. However, like everything else, to what this "socialism" managed to reach.
        2. Vega 23 October 2015 12: 01 New
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          The thing was to change the production technology, after the war, changing universal equipment to specialized was clearly not affordable.
        3. gross kaput 26 October 2015 21: 22 New
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          Quote: alex-cn
          why did not organize the production of 54 sleeves with a groove,

          when the issue of arming the Red Army was decided in the 20s, the topic with the transition to a progressive cartridge with a groove was raised, various options were offered including the manufacture of a cartridge 7,62X54 without a flange and the transition to Japanese 6,5 BUT the main reason for the failure was not bone thinking and not the need for alteration of weapons, but the impossibility of that industry to ensure the mass production of weapons and ammunition under a cartridge without an edge - everything is extremely simple - 7,62X54 is fixed in the cartridge by the edge, so it allows you to produce ammunition and ammunition Si with a fairly large tolerances - if you look at the shoot treshichnye liner that time you will see a different embossing shoulders when fired. A cartridge with a groove of such liberties no longer allows for fixing in the chamber by means of an emphasis on the shoulders of the step of the cartridge chamber, which also ensures a mirror clearance as a result, and the cartridge itself and the cartridge chamber of the weapon require high precision manufacturing, which in the industry of the 20s I couldn’t, and in the 30s when it was already possible to mass produce such products, it was already considered that starting a rearmament was too troublesome and expensive.
      2. Igor39 23 October 2015 08: 02 New
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        The army switched to an intermediate cartridge, handed over rifles to the warehouse, received SKS and AK, machine guns were also replaced on a PC, nothing would have happened except the transition to a cartridge with a hollowed sleeve.
        1. gross kaput 29 October 2015 19: 09 New
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          Quote: Igor39
          The army switched to an intermediate cartridge, handed over rifles to the warehouse, received SKS and AK, machine guns were also replaced on a PC, nothing would have happened except the transition to a cartridge with a hollowed sleeve.

          Mdya knowledge of history is not your greatest strength laughing by the time the AK was armed with standard machine guns in the army, the SG and RP-46, and there was no question of replacing them with a single machine gun at that time, serious work to create a single machine gun started only 10 years later and ended only in 61 adoption PC / PKS, and after a year of PCT. In addition, AK, SKS and RPD became the grave diggers of the new rifle cartridges, since the question of creating high-capacity magazines for individual weapons of 7,62X54 caliber was no longer standing (and this is what is considered the main drawback of these cartridges - the complexity and reliability of the magazines with capacity more than 10 rounds) then replace the cartridge with all the ensuing consequences of rearmament considered (and quite reasonable) meaningless. Although in the 50s attempts were made to create a universal machine-gun cartridge - intermediate from the other end between the rifle and machine-gun - but it ended with nothing - the cartridge was created, in terms of ballistics it was significantly higher than 7,62X39 and in terms of recoil it was significantly lighter than 7,62 , 54XXNUMX, but rearmament was not considered appropriate.
          1. 4thParasinok 12 July 2016 16: 57 New
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            Quote: gross kaput
            Although in the 50s attempts were made to create a universal machine-gun cartridge - intermediate from the other end between the rifle and machine-gun - but it ended with nothing - the cartridge was created, in terms of ballistics it was significantly higher than 7,62X39 and in terms of recoil it was significantly lighter than 7,62 , 54XXNUMX, but rearmament was not considered appropriate.

            and what to create was Czech 7,62x45 vz.52, the bullet was a bit heavier (8,4g), the speed was slightly higher (744m / s), the muzzle energy was slightly higher - 2325 J.
      3. prosto_rgb 24 October 2015 08: 09 New
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        Quote: i80186
        And just “throw out” millions of rifles and hundreds of thousands of machine guns? The state destroyed by the war was not ready for such feats.

        It is not necessary to throw out anything.
        Back in 1931, there were proposals to remake both the cartridge itself and the Maxim machine gun under the power of both types of cartridges, but something did not work.
        And on the three-ruler, everything is not much more complicated. Maximum replace the shutter, and even then, not the fact that the whole.
        1. forwarder 25 October 2015 01: 15 New
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          Quote: prosto_rgb
          Back in 1931, there were proposals to remake both the cartridge itself and the Maxim machine gun under the power of both types of cartridges, but something did not work.

          But what about the chamber?
          Quote: prosto_rgb
          And on the three-ruler, everything is not much more complicated. Maximum replace the shutter, and even then, not the fact that the whole

          And another barrel. And everything else can be left as is.
    2. fa2998 23 October 2015 07: 42 New
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      Are you suggesting that you use an even more powerful cartridge for automatic weapons? How to hold it in your hands, and the portable stock will be significantly reduced. A good cartridge and weapons for it are excellent (AK, AKM). I had to use it only several times in the service, part of it already switched to 5.45 mm . hi
      1. alex-cn 23 October 2015 07: 47 New
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        Do not forget that there is still a single and tank machine guns, military snipers and so on. Who still need a rifle cartridge. It’s just a little off topic, but on the issue of switching to a cartridge with a groove.
        1. fa2998 23 October 2015 09: 09 New
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          NO, here we are talking about the INTERMEDIATE CARTRIDGE. It is for an individual automatic warrior weapon. The rifle cartridge is too powerful for this. And the fact that the 7.62x54R cartridge is still used in separate weapon systems is what I already know. hi
      2. forwarder 25 October 2015 01: 24 New
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        Quote: fa2998
        Do you propose to use an even more powerful cartridge for automatic weapons? How to hold it in your hands and the wearable stock will be significantly reduced.

        And the apologists of AF No. 1 (the one on the cartridge with the Mauser sleeve, which they call the "Fedorov cartridge") claim that the beautiful is an individual automatic weapon. And Fedorov said so. True, the numbers speak differently. But faith is a terrible power.
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    4. Aleksandr72 23 October 2015 10: 02 New
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      Attempts to switch to a new rifle and machine gun cartridge with a flangeless sleeve were made back in the Russian Empire. Moreover, experiments were conducted with a decrease in caliber. The reason was that it is difficult to create an automatic weapon under the arsenal of a three-line cartridge because of the problems that inevitably arise when the ammunition is fed with ammunition during the shooting process. The same Dragunov spent a year on creating a well-functioning store for the famous SVD! Fedorov’s 6,5x57 mm cartridge is an example (although some people who are not very literate in the arms business agreed to call this typical rifle cartridge intermediate). Fedorov originally created his automatic rifles under his small-caliber rifle cartridge. But in connection with the beginning of the imperialist war, the question of adopting a new cartridge was completely forgotten, the usual three-line cartridges were not enough. And Fedorov handed over his rifle, and then created a 1916 automatic rifle under the usual 6,5 × 51 mm Japanese rifle cartridge (in which the original sleeve had an annular groove and a small welt (flange) so that this cartridge could be used for automatic weapons and for magazine rifles).
      The issue of changing a cartridge was repeatedly raised during the Soviet era. But they did not go to this extremely costly event, because when creating a massive cartridge and weapons for it, huge expenses were required for the production of both a cartridge-weapon complex, with inevitable rearmament problems, and for the storage of small arms samples taken out of service (and there were a lot of them, only Mosin rifles and only during the war about 12 million pieces were released!), as well as cartridges for it, with the inevitable need to dispose of both after expiration dates (the gunpowder he has decomposed from time to time even when it was in an airtight sleeve). With the adoption of 7,62x39 mm as the main intermediate cartridge and a set of weapons for it (self-loading carbine - light machine gun - automatic machine), the need to adopt a new rifle-machine gun cartridge, the scope of which has decreased significantly (machine guns and tank machine guns, sniper rifles) lost all relevance. Especially in the current conditions, when a great many rounds of ammunition for special weapons have been developed and used, but there the volumes of expenditure of rounds are not comparable with such mass weapons as an automatic weapon. For single and tank machine guns (PC and its clones), developed under the cartridge 7,62X54P, in principle, it does not matter which cartridge - with or without a flange. Their design in terms of feeding cartridges worked out almost to perfection. For magazine sniper rifles with manual reloading, the type of cartridge used (i.e., again with or without a flange) does not matter at all. I already mentioned about SVD and its store. Therefore, the good old three-linear cartridge adopted for service back in 1891, together with the Mosin rifle, still remains in service. By the way, the adoption of just such a cartridge with a sleeve with a protruding rim served as the reasons for both the economic and production plan. Russia at that time was not so technically advanced and did not have the ability to organize the production of a more complex flangeless cartridge for its rifles and, in the future, machine guns. Although even then it was known about the advantages of a cartridge with a sleeve without a protruding collar, it was not obvious to everyone (the armament consisted of a 4,2-line cartridge for Berdan rifles with a flange sleeve) and the benefits of the economic plan were outweighed.
      I have the honor.
      1. Vega 23 October 2015 12: 03 New
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        I absolutely agree with you!
      2. forwarder 23 October 2015 20: 52 New
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        Quote: Aleksandr72
        Fedorov’s cartridge 6,5 × 57 mm is an example (although some people who are not very literate in the arms industry agreed to call this typical rifle cartridge intermediate)

        For starters, no “Fedorov’s cartridge” existed. There was a cartridge of Arisak, which was made in Russia out of economy and equipped with Russian gunpowder. He was worse than the Japanese and the cartridge was a little weaker. Fedorov had nothing to do with this. I just used these cartridges in my fart. That’s the whole “Fedorov’s cartridge”.
        Then, a typical rifle cartridge also has the power of this rifle cartridge itself. And this BASIC cartridge characteristic. And the cartridge that Fedorov used in his fart had the initial energy in 1938 J. And the Arisaka G cartridge had the energy of 2119 J. And the SKS carbine cartridge on the completely typical intermediate cartridge has the energy of 2134 J. Did you notice any similarities?
        All these Arisaki-Breda-psvdoFedorovs from the real intermediate cartridges differed only in the increased length of the sleeve. And that’s all.
        So, "very literate" on this topic would be better to be silent.
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        Fedorov originally created his automatic rifles under his small-caliber rifle cartridge.

        Quote: Aleksandr72
        And Fedorov handed over her rifle, and then created an automatic rifle of 1916 under the usual Japanese rifle cartridge 6,5x51 mm

        Uuuuuuuuuuuu how everything is running. And where, let me ask you, Fedorov took this very "own cartridge"? The cartridge is a difficult thing, you can’t develop it in a barn on a machine. He did not have any “of his own patron”. Neither at the beginning nor at the end. At first, the "native" cartridge of Arisak shoved there, and then, the same cartridge, but of domestic production, on local gunpowder. Which had the worst performance. As a result, kvas patriots managed to call such a cartridge of reduced power “Fedorov's cartridge”.
        had both an annular groove and a small welt (flange) so that this cartridge could be used for both automatic weapons and magazine rifles)

        Mosinka and SVD what? Which cartridge is used? What rifle DP? Which cartridge did you use? Which Tokarev PP cartridge used? Why tell tales?
        Quote: Aleksandr72
        But they did not go to this extremely costly event, because when creating a mass cartridge and weapons for it, huge expenses were required for the production of both a cartridge-weapon complex, with inevitable rearmament problems, and for the storage of small arms samples taken out of service (and there were a lot of them

        How did it not go? And the weapon on the cartridge 7,62x25 mm TT, which then all went into the furnace? And the weapon on the cartridge of 7,62x39 mm, which went there too? And the weapons on cartridges of 5,45x39 mm and 9x17 mm PM, which will also go there too? What is not "rearmament", then expenses and all by. Have you noticed? All Soviet cartridges were non-standard. And all of them will leave. This is on the theme "Soviet, which means excellent." The kingdom of incompetence.
        The first normal army pistol PY adopted ONLY IN THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION. I’m keeping silent about the “tricks” of its ergonomics in combination with ballistics. The need for invention is cunning, but everything has been done sensibly there.
        1. forwarder 23 October 2015 21: 55 New
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          Quote: Aleksandr72
          The same Dragunov spent a year on creating a normally functioning store for the famous SVD

          It is strange that not 50 years. And where to rush? Salary is coming, length of service, too. The beauty.
          Quote: Aleksandr72
          With the adoption of 7,62x39 mm as the main intermediate cartridge and a set of weapons for it (self-loading carbine - light machine gun - automatic machine), the need to adopt a new rifle-machine gun cartridge, the scope of which has decreased significantly (machine guns and tank machine guns, sniper rifles) lost all relevance.

          Yes? And what was that in 1974? Diversion of enemies of the Soviet power?
          Quote: Aleksandr72
          Especially in the current conditions, when a great many rounds of ammunition for special weapons have been developed and used, but there the volumes of expenditure of rounds are not comparable with such mass weapons as an automatic weapon.

          You may not have noticed, but all kinds of contests are constantly taking place to find a replacement for the AK-74. Bye on the old cartridge. They want to solve the problem with little blood. If they don’t invent cheaper gunpowder more efficiently, they won’t decide. The 5,45x39 mm cartridge, in the form in which it exists today, is not capable of functioning. Do you understand? Capable, but not very. Therefore, you have to start with it. And this VERY expensive.
          Quote: Aleksandr72
          Therefore, the good old three-linear cartridge adopted for service back in 1891, together with the Mosin rifle, still remains in service.

          It remains in service because it is ONLY legally capable cartridge today. Everything that the stupid Bolsheviks piled during their outrage was all substandard.
          Yes, and one more thing. All these "legendary products" will also go away. And the army will eventually sooner or later receive fully capable weapons. A pistol more or less decent has already appeared, now it is the turn of the individual automatic small arms. I would buy a license for something old German or Belgian on the M855 cartridge. Such a license will cost less. It seems to me that this is the cheapest way to get out of the Soviet infantry insanity in one fell swoop.
          Only I'm afraid they won’t sell it now. And without this, most likely it will not work. With the weapons school, in my opinion, everything is bad, but without this nothing sensible and high-quality can be created. Only another "legendary ...". It may not be so bad, but there is no good cartridge. 5,45 mm was created as a compromise for the AK-74 and in fact today is rather weak. It can be left, new, it is very expensive, but at the cost of final performance characteristics of the weapon. Those. even if you make a good weapon at 5,45 mm, then because of the cartridge it will not be conditional.
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          2. Aleksandr72 24 October 2015 06: 29 New
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            Personally for forwarder
            I never argue, because I see no point in this. Especially if the opponent did not consider it difficult for himself to read at least a preliminary and try to analyze someone else’s comment or article before expressing his opinion, and even in such a boorish style.
            I’ll explain it to you personally once again, I never called Fedorov’s cartridge intermediate, his cartridge was a normal rifle cartridge, equal in power to the arsenal of a three-line cartridge arr. 1908 with a pointed bullet. And this cartridge was developed by Fedorov by the beginning of 1913, when after not very successful attempts to create an automatic rifle under the standard 7,62X54P cartridge, with a sleeve with a protruding rim not suitable for automatic weapons. Fedorov’s cartridge had a 57 mm long bottle-shaped sleeve without a protruding flange (welt, flanges - if you like). Under this cartridge, Fedorov developed his automatic rifle of the 1913 model, which, together with the cartridge, he proposed to take into service with the Russian imperial army. They even started preparations for the production of both, but the First World War began and the patron of Fedorov was forgotten. Meanwhile, Japanese Arisaka rifles of 1897 and 1905 were delivered to Russia, including those that Fedorov himself bought in Japan during his mission to purchase and order the production of rifles for the Russian army abroad (about which he wrote a good book) . Japanese rifles used a 6,5x50 mm cartridge (aka 6,5x50SR) with an original cartridge case, which has both an annular groove and a slightly protruding rim. Fedorov redid his rifle for him and then developed his automatic rifle. 1916, with the latter used a cartridge of reduced power with a muzzle energy of 1960 joules. The same cartridge of "reduced power" was used in the Japanese light machine guns Nambu arr. 22 and arr. 99. But there the reason for using a cartridge with a weakened charge is different - the Japanese “miracle heroes” with a height of 152 cm (standard A of the Japanese army) simply could not physically withstand the recoil when firing bursts from a machine gun with cartridges of normal power. By the way, when after the war the Japanese Self-Defense Forces switched to the NATO standard - 7,62x51 mm cartridge, for the same reasons the charge of this cartridge for the Japanese "64" assault rifle was weakened.
            I will not give you links to the fundamental work of weapons experts, for I have doubts that you will not consider it hard for you to read them. Read at least these articles about Fedorov’s cartridge: http://ww1.milua.org/bullets1916.html and about his automatic machine (it’s mentioned there too): http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/rus /automatic-fedorov-r.html.
            I won’t even comment on the rest of the nonsense. Going down to your level is categorically unacceptable to me, and explaining something in a normal language to a person who does not want to adequately perceive someone else's point of view that is different from his own is impossible. I see no reason to personally give you a lecture on the long-known truths in the arms business, especially on the "substandard and weakness" of Russian-made cartridges. Believe me, it doesn’t matter to the corpse what bullet’s bullet cut off his life (of course, not the life of the corpse itself, but the one he was before receiving a gunshot wound that was not compatible with life). At one time, I had seen enough of the corpses with a wide variety of gunshot wounds: from the "snipe" shot from the 16-gauge smoothbore, to the torn limbs (including the upper, which is called the head), a 12,7 x 108 bullet.
            1. forwarder 24 October 2015 22: 06 New
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              Quote: Aleksandr72
              Yes, even in such a boorish style

              Are you not used to being opposed? Then you are a great boss. Or a big hermit. In all other cases, hearing objections is normal. Get used to it.
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              nowhere did I call Fedorov’s cartridge intermediate, his cartridge was a normal rifle cartridge

              Quote: Aleksandr72
              And this cartridge was developed by Fedorov in early 1913

              And I pointed out to you quite objectively that such a cartridge did not exist at all. The fact that someone there took a 6,5x57 mm Mauser cartridge, disassembled it, supplied it with a non-native bullet (it was too lazy to look for someone who had manufacturers of bullets of such caliber as fleas on a dog) and suggested that all this be done in series, does not mean that that this proposal is called "Fedorov’s cartridge". The maximum is "Fedorov's proposal." Pupkin's cartridge is called a cartridge mastered by industrial production.
              And if you use your approach, then only “Ivanov’s cartridges” will be typed in a couple of tens of thousands. Rarely, one of the "risk hunters" did not try to insert a non-standard bullet of the same caliber into the sleeve. Read the Internet, there are a million of such inventors-masturbations. Those who survived "share positive experiences."
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              Meanwhile, Japanese Arisaka rifles of 1897 and 1905 were delivered to Russia, including those that Fedorov himself bought in Japan during his mission to purchase and order the production of rifles for the Russian army abroad (about which he wrote a good book)

              Exactly. Such weapons could only be bought if it was very necessary, and no one else sold. Maybe it was. And if not, then this is not an inventor, but a saboteur. Instead of purchasing capable weapons, he bought Arisaki. Well, what else can I say?
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              Fedorov redid his rifle for him and then developed his automatic rifle. 1916, with the latter used a cartridge of reduced power with a muzzle energy of 1960 joules.

              It is not true. Used cartridge with a standard "rifle" hitch, 2,15g. See screenshots of NSD.
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              The same cartridge of "reduced power" was used in the Japanese light machine guns Nambu arr. 22 and arr. 99. But there the reason for using a cartridge with a weakened charge is different - the Japanese “miracle heroes” with a height of 152 cm (standard A of the Japanese army) simply could not physically withstand the recoil when firing bursts from a machine gun with cartridges of normal power.

              It's funny I occasionally meet this joke on the Internet. You, Alexander, would at least learn the basics of small arms business, or something. Then it would become clear to you why the Japanese used a cartridge with a reduced weight in automatic weapons. And compare the recoil of the Akisaki rifle and some MG42. And even better than the Japanese type 99 arr. 1939 Where else was it necessary to reduce the return, did Arisaki have “none” at all? The Japanese, do you think that they are all sickly and sickly suffocated? Not at all. The hitch in the cartridge was reduced for completely different reasons.
              In general, of course, the “Internet revelations” are surprising. Sometimes it’s strong.
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              2. forwarder 24 October 2015 22: 11 New
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                Quote: Aleksandr72
                By the way, when, after the war, the Japanese Self-Defense Forces switched to the NATO standard - 7,62x51 mm cartridge, for the same reasons the charge of this cartridge for the Japanese "64" assault rifle was weakened.

                Well, the province went to write fairy tales. Do not stop.
                Besides this, is there anything that this “assault rifle” has a rifle cartridge?
                In addition, nothing that type 99 arr. 1939 recoil more than type 64 by 14%. What happened? Did the Japanese grind? But what about the acceleration? Or is that not the reason? Think about it.
                Quote: Aleksandr72
                I will not give you links to the fundamental work of weapons experts, for I have doubts that you will not consider it hard for you to read them.

                You know, "fundamental experts" squeezing such articles differ from you only by arrogance. You do not have the audacity to squeeze them. And they have it. And that’s all.
                You can’t get any information from the links you provided. Because the data in them contradict each other. And in the one where the drawings are with sizes, these data contradict the plate. Two parts of one article contradict each other. The right hand does not know what the left is doing. Here is such a "level" of your sources.
                Quote: Aleksandr72
                I won’t even comment on the rest of the nonsense.

                You don’t have to. You can not. You do not have qualifications; you have confirmed this even with these comments of yours. But to make fun of yourself is not worth it.
                Quote: Aleksandr72
                I see no reason to personally give you a lecture on the long-known truths in the arms business, especially on the "substandard and weakness" of Russian-made cartridges.

                You can only give me a lecture on Internet gossip. Like, about the Japanese machine gunners, suffocating. I do not need such “lectures”.
                Quote: Aleksandr72
                Believe me, the corpse doesn’t care what bullet of the cartridge cut short his life

                Usually such "arguments" are called "cheap." And especially appreciated by those who do not bother with knowledge. "Hit by a tear" is always easier than studying the materiel.
                Quote: Aleksandr72
                At one time, I had seen enough of the corpses with a wide variety of gunshot wounds: from the "snipe" shot from the 16-gauge smoothbore, to the torn limbs (including the upper one, which is called the head) with a 12,7 x 108 bullet.

                Apparently, not a horse feed. Seeing is one thing. Understanding is different. Not everyone who sees sees the essence of what is happening.
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            4. k_ply 25 October 2015 10: 54 New
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              Quote: forwarder
              Besides this, is there anything that this “assault rifle” has a rifle cartridge?
              In addition, nothing that type 99 arr. 1939 recoil more than type 64 by 14%. What happened?

              Alexander, forwarder - a rare ur-d! whose, by the way, cartridge 7,7x58 Arisaka and cartridge 7,62x51 / .308 Win with a powder charge reduced by 20%, turns out (!) to be equivalent, this stump does not know for example that the Spaniards are in their 7,62th, The 51x7,62mm CETME mod.B rifles also used a light cartridge with a light bullet (51xXNUMX CETME).
              I have a habit of protecting myself and my loved ones from debi-s, so they are on the black list.
            5. Bormanxnumx 11 December 2015 23: 31 New
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              Quote: Aleksandr72
              Fedorov redid his rifle for him and then developed his automatic rifle. 1916, with the latter used a cartridge of reduced power with a muzzle energy of 1960 joules. The same cartridge of "reduced power" was used in the Japanese light machine guns Nambu arr. 22 and arr. 99. But there the reason for using a cartridge with a weakened charge is different - the Japanese “miracle heroes” with a height of 152 cm (standard A of the Japanese army) simply could not physically withstand the recoil when firing bursts from a machine gun with cartridges of normal power.

              The attenuated 6,5x50 cartridge is a very "muddy story", I recommend looking at http://mpopenker.livejournal.com/1853423.html
            6. Bormanxnumx 12 December 2015 00: 07 New
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              Quote: Aleksandr72
              Japanese rifles used a 6,5x50 mm cartridge (aka 6,5x50SR) with an original cartridge case, which has both an annular groove and a slightly protruding rim. Fedorov redid his rifle for him and then developed his automatic rifle. 1916, with the latter used a cartridge of reduced power with a muzzle energy of 1960 joules.

              The attenuated 6,5x50 cartridge is a very "troubled story", I recommend looking at http://mpopenker.livejournal.com/1853423.html Regarding the "miracle heroes 152 cm tall" you are a little cunning, indicating the minimum height for joining the Japanese army- the average "in the hospital" was 158cm. Our average height was 165-167cm.
            7. blog 23 December 2015 01: 00 New
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              Quote: Aleksandr72
              Fedorov redid his rifle for him and then developed his automatic rifle. 1916, with the latter used a cartridge of reduced power with a muzzle energy of 1960 joules.

              NSD AF does not agree with you. Arrogantly claims that the AF used the standard Arisaka rifle cartridge.
              Quote: Aleksandr72
              The same cartridge of "reduced power" was used in the Japanese light machine guns Nambu arr. 22 and arr. 99. But there the reason for using a cartridge with a weakened charge is different - the Japanese “miracle heroes” with a height of 152 cm (standard A of the Japanese army) simply could not physically withstand the recoil when firing bursts from a machine gun with cartridges of normal power.

              Tell less jokes. And read more. Then you will discover the true reason for the weakening of machine gun cartridges "G".
              By the way, type 99, the successor to type 96, darted with more powerful ammunition 7,7 × 58 mm Arisaka. And nothing, supposedly dead Japanese machine gunners somehow coped. Do you think 2 people were holding a machine gun?
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    5. Slobber 23 October 2015 11: 40 New
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      I think the whole world will soon come to me, in about 30 years, it will come to the point that two, maximum three rounds will be needed - pistol and intermediate between rifle and intermediate, for carbines and machine guns (no, not for automatic shooting from carbines). Well, some sort of patrick for super long-range shooting.
      Why? Yes, because if you look closely, the role of equipment in the current military operations has pushed the role of infantry to the long-term plan, leaving that infantry only to control the occupied territory. Tashchimta will remain all sorts of Kalash and arches as vkusovschina for various special forces.
  2. Hubun 23 October 2015 07: 32 New
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    that the truth is true, for hunting is rather weak
    1. alex-cn 23 October 2015 07: 38 New
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      In Europe, in general, cartridges with a sleeve shorter than 40 mm are forbidden for hunting (ungulates? I don’t remember offhand ..) are prohibited, and the small side bullet is allowed only for training shooting. In fact, we also cut the possibility of hunting with this cartridge now.
      1. nicolay338 23 October 2015 10: 01 New
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        They didn’t cut anything. As the hooves fell from him, they knocked down. And all the talk about low power comes from little experience and love for the senseless shooting at the assholes of an escaping beast.
        Psi: on a bear, of course I wouldn’t risk it. Well, what for smile
        1. alex-cn 23 October 2015 11: 42 New
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          It seems that they have now been canceled, but in nature there was a Resolution of the GOVERNMENT of the RUSSIAN FEDERATION of January 10, 2009 N 18 "ON EXTRACTION OF ANIMAL WORLD RELATED TO HUNTING OBJECTS"
          1. nicolay338 23 October 2015 13: 33 New
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            It was when foreign calibers steamed us, to certainly exclude the purchase of a penny cut by the population.
  3. bunta 23 October 2015 08: 31 New
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    The spherical shape of the grain gives the most degrading combustion process. And in 7.62x39 used tubular single-channel VUFL with almost zero progressivity.
  4. erased 23 October 2015 09: 32 New
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    The cartridge is really good. Now the army uses 5,45 x 39. But they still don’t talk about the option of switching the army to 6,5 or 6,8 or some other. But 5,45 is far from happy with everyone. In the West, they also did not leave 5,56, although attempts are being made. There, too, the economy controls the process, the mass of weapons is made under 5,56 and a lot of rounds were made. However, practice shows that sooner or later the transition will have to be done.
  5. Siberia 9444 23 October 2015 15: 01 New
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    Quote: bunta
    The spherical shape of the grain gives the most degrading combustion process. And in 7.62x39 used tubular single-channel VUFL with almost zero progressivity.

    Quote: sanya.vorodis
    "... weak for hunting"
    ===============================
    Don’t tell me - at one time hunters hunting hoofed animals with SCS complained that the bullet strikes the animal right through, not touching the vital organs, the game runs away ... As a result, the game dies from blood loss, but is no longer available to the hunter.
    As a result, a hunting cartridge was developed (shown in the article in the photo) with a bullet with a lead core and a cut off “tip”, which, when it enters the body of the game, “unfolds”, acting as an expansive one.

    All you wrote correctly is only there, but these cartridges are very "dead" 7.62 * 51 refineries as an example for a 300-meter drop of 59 cm. (It was drawn on the ballistic box of a bullet) principle, that’s how it is, that’s why they use armored cartridges.
  6. Robert Nevsky 23 October 2015 16: 34 New
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    Super article. Thanks to the author!
  7. zenion 23 October 2015 16: 48 New
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    All the same, the first under this cartridge was the SKS-43 carbine. Beautiful and accurate weapon.
  8. Owl
    Owl 23 October 2015 20: 44 New
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    A good cartridge, powerful, decent caliber. Only one question has long arisen: what figure took a decision during the 80s and 90s to equip the police with 5,45x39 mm caliber automatic weapons? The "awl" (5,45x39 mm cartridge bullet) usually simply flashes the enemy and does not cause damage that excludes "further resistance" (only damage to the heart, brain and spine excludes active resistance), plus the "excellent" work of the "servants" (freeloaders) People - deputies who do not know ("probably") about the need to pass a law allowing the use of ammunition against the offenders expansive or semi-shell (the most worthy when applied to "soft" meat, without clad armor protection). Personally, when I had the opportunity, instead of the AK-74M, I received the old Soviet AKMS.
    1. 4thParasinok 16 December 2015 23: 17 New
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      Quote: Eagle Owl
      Only one question has long arisen: what figure took a decision during the 80s and 90s to equip the police with 5,45x39 mm caliber automatic weapons?

      it is necessary to ask the police authorities what they thought. But there is an option that they were not allowed into army warehouses, and the newer was only under 5,45x39 mm. That’s why there were contests from the Ministry of Internal Affairs for PP, unfortunately under the PM cartridge, but it was necessary under the TT. then the willows would not have to be on duty with AKMS, but on duty,
      When developing the Bison-2 submachine gun, we were faced with the task of unifying it as much as possible with AK series assault rifles. As a result, it has a 74% interchangeability with AKS60, which makes it possible to quickly and economically set up serial production of Bizon-2.
      The following modifications of the gun? Machine gun "Bison-2":
      - "Bison-2" chambered for 9x18PM and 9x18PMM;
      - "Bison-2-01" chambered for 9x19 (Now available as the "Hero");
      - "Bison-2-02" chambered for 9x17;
      - "Bison-2-03" chambered for 7,62x25.

      or like this:
      In 1993 ... ... In parallel, EF Dragunov developed and manufactured a small-sized submachine gun chambered for 7.62x25. A design feature of this submachine gun is the use of a balanced automation system, i.e. the shutter is kinematically connected with the movable barrel.
  9. forwarder 23 October 2015 21: 59 New
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    In fact, the Soviet model of the cartridge became an improved version of the German concept in terms of its form and efficiency of use.

    The usage concepts were completely different. Therefore, the term "improved" is not appropriate here.
    The first work on the development of an intermediate cartridge in the Soviet Union began in 1939, but the question of their creation was raised even earlier.

    And pink elephants were first bred also in the USSR. The author needs to clarify "in caliber more than 7,5 mm and on a sleeve of reduced height." Because without these reservations, these “intermediate cartridges” (power cartridges of the intermediate cartridge) were like fleas on a dog. This is Arisaka (especially G), and Breda, and even a 6,5 mm Russian-made cartridge, then Fedorov used it for his fart, (Arisaka with a rifle mount and Russian gunpowder, this made the cartridge less powerful).
    and also provided by the USSR for familiarization with the American self-loading carbine M1

    That’s what you shouldn’t even get acquainted with. But they got acquainted because in the USSR, a cartridge case for weapons of this class was mass-produced. Therefore, ammunition could be inexpensive and their production would not cause difficulties.
    self-loading (automatic) rifle

    Self-loading rifle is semi-automatic.
    The intermediate cartridge was created for use in a light machine gun, self-loading rifle and automatic rifle-machine gun.

    The machine gun carbines used carabiner cartridges. Such were not produced in the USSR. Cartridges of intermediate power with a classic bullet are used in assault rifles and machine guns (USSR). Soviet automatic carbines, if they existed, would use a rifle cartridge.
    submachine gun carbines

    Writing in parentheses is not appropriate here. These are weapons of two different classes. And given the “dissenting opinion” of the USSR on this issue, there are three.
    thin rifle trunks without fear that they will overheat, since the shooting was mainly to be carried out with single shots and only in the most critical moments of the battle - in bursts

    It’s funny. The author knows how to amuse with his craftiness. Because these are the later requirements adopted in the USSR for AK-74 and AKM. For some reason, the author does not write why such a requirement was accepted. And it would be necessary. Or doesn’t he know that?
    Taking as the point of the report that trajectory persistence is one of the main characteristics for the new cartridge

    Boo-ha-ha. No, well, just boo-ha-ha. Even without add. comments.
    OKB-44 specialists from the very beginning of the development decided that the new cartridge should be better than the German

    Better in what? How can you determine the "best" cartridge in principle? Will there be less misfires? Then yes, it’s possible. And no more.
    the main part of which was previously supplied to the Soviet Union from the USA by Lend-Lease

    The author writes "counter". Leavened patriots will crush him.
    To be continued …
    1. forwarder 23 October 2015 22: 01 New
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      The German cartridge 7,92 x 33 mm direct range (DPV) was 300 meters, for the Soviet cartridge DPV was taken equal to 325 meters

      The author is a real comedian. I’ll even continue his joke - and the cartridge for the PKK was better than the first two, because the PKK has a longer range of direct shot than these two. I hope now the author understands what he wrote? By the way, with all this, the "cartridge from the PKK" is not necessary BETTER German
      Nobody demanded high accuracy of fire when using automatic fire from a new cartridge.

      You also write that automatic weapons do not even require the ability to fire at all. And what? I can’t make a normal weapon, so there are no such requirements. True, everything is arranged differently in the world. But pooh on him, on this world.
      However, later, when the AK was adopted by the Soviet army, the main type of firing from an automatic machine to increase the density of fire (the number of bullets per linear meter per minute) began to be considered to be firing bursts.

      The ability to fire automatically and the ability to hit targets with automatic fire are not directly related. There are still subtleties about how to hit. But this is already very detailed.
      This made it possible to improve the ballistic coefficient with a constant bullet weight.

      A double edged sword. The Germans in their cartridge adhered to the opposite philosophy. A bullet of the typical carabiner type was used. And this was done intentionally.
      Also, a rear cone was introduced at the bullet, which was supposed to serve to reduce air resistance during the flight of the bullet

      And one more controversial thing.
      Nameplate

      The plate is really funny. Its essence lies in the fact that the author does not understand small arms, but squeezes "articles". Therefore, he has in one pile the AK-47 and AK-74. Weapons on cartridges of a completely different type. How can they be dumped in one pile, and even compare? Particularly pins "important indicator" rate of fire. Why would he be there?
      The main advantage of gunpowder of spherical granulation was that it provided a high gravimetric density (filling density of the sleeve)

      Not a virtue, but a feature. In some cases, this feature is a drawback.
      All this together made it possible to provide the bullet with large muzzle energy with an equal size of the charging chamber or, with equal muzzle energy, to reduce the dimensions of the sleeve.

      So what? It would be possible to make the sleeve 1-2 mm longer. In operation, no one would have noticed. A high charge density would not be needed. In addition, part of the negative aspects associated with this would disappear. It would be more correct to go this way.
      To be continued …
      1. forwarder 23 October 2015 22: 06 New
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        The brass process, which the USSR borrowed from German industry, was associated with the use of potent toxic substances.

        So the process of production and consumption of thermal power plants is also extremely toxic. But the "comrades" had to put it on the device. This disgrace was banned only after the USSR. But brass sleeves were not canceled because of this.
        which means it’s not very suitable for use in automatic weapons

        The author is spreading groundless rumors.
        The original cartridge 7,62x39 mm uses a pointed shell bullet weighing 8 grams. The initial speed of its flight is about 720 m / s with an initial energy level of about 1960 J.

        And in the NSD brazenly printed slightly different numbers. None matched. Spin the drum again. By the way, the numbers for the AK-47 and AKM were slightly different.
        Developed in 1943, the cartridge was originally conceived for use only for military purposes.

        Therefore, in 1947. adopted the AK-47 for him? Usually disingenuous, my friend. For use ONLY in wartime, such a cartridge and weapons on it were conceived by the Germans. In fact, it was so, except for the USSR with satellites, no one has ever released and does not produce such van der wafers in peacetime on an industrial scale.
        based on the defeat of only human targets, without any focus on hunting.

        A large monkey, for example, does not differ much from a person in terms of hunting. What are the problems here? Want expansive bullets? They exist.
        And although the 7,62x39 mm cartridge is definitely not the best option in terms of firing accuracy

        No, well, the author is an avid comedian. Did he decide to write off all the jambs of the "legendary" to the cartridge?
        as well as to control the number of foxes, coyotes and other small game

        I hope the author understands how the fox and coyote are different in size from humans? That's why all the weapons on this cartridge since the 70s of the USSR and began to urgently remove from the army.
        The advantage is that the recoil when firing rounds of 7,62x39 mm caliber is minimal.

        Here's how to explain to the author and his apologists on this site that BEFORE a certain physiological level, it is not so much the recoil itself that matters (although it is far from the last meaning, this is not the notorious "flatness" to you), but the resulting values ​​of the force vectors. Can do balanced weapons with powerful returns (within physiological norms), which is very difficult and only a few manufacturers in the world can do. And this weapon will be beautiful. And you can make a relatively weak weapon that will fight in your hands, like a fit. And to weaken these “fits” such unfortunate producers WILL BE FORCED in different ways to reduce this return. Mostly, but not always, loosening the cartridge. And worsening the performance characteristics of their van der wafers.
        However, such a weapon will be inexpensive. Even if it is "fantastically reliable." Ax, he is also reliable. But ineffective. Unless, against old women-interest.
  10. Thompson 24 October 2015 08: 58 New
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    [quote = forwarder] [quote]
    Can do balanced weapons with powerful returns (within physiological norms), which is very difficult and only a few manufacturers in the world can do. And this weapon will be beautiful. And you can make a relatively weak weapon that will fight in your hands, like a fit. And to weaken these “fits” such unfortunate producers WILL BE FORCED in different ways to reduce this return. Mostly, but not always, loosening the cartridge. And worsening the performance characteristics of their van der wafers.
    However, such a weapon will be inexpensive. Even if it is "fantastically reliable." Ax, he is also reliable. But ineffective. Unless, against old women-percent. [/ Quote]

    It is not so much knowledge of weaponry that blows from you, but, much more, banal anti-communism and anti-Soviet!
    1. forwarder 24 October 2015 15: 09 New
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      Quote: Thompson
      It blows from you

      And what difference does it make from me when discussing technical issues? Technique, it is objective. It does not depend on the worldview. Although propaganda, of course, can inspire people with a lot of things that are not true.
  11. Ze Kot 24 October 2015 20: 47 New
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    Quote: razgildyay
    I think the whole world will soon come to me, in about 30 years, it will come to the point that two, maximum three rounds will be needed - pistol and intermediate between rifle and intermediate, for carbines and machine guns (no, not for automatic shooting from carbines). Well, some sort of patrick for super long-range shooting.
    Why? Yes, because if you look closely, the role of equipment in the current military operations has pushed the role of infantry to the long-term plan, leaving that infantry only to control the occupied territory. Tashchimta will remain all sorts of Kalash and arches as vkusovschina for various special forces.


    The whole point of wars is when the “pixota” controls the occupied territory. So early you deduct infantry.
  12. gross kaput 4 November 2015 02: 17 New
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    Quote: bunta
    The spherical shape of the grain gives the most degrading combustion process. And in 7.62x39 used tubular single-channel VUFL with almost zero progressivity.

    And Mr. Plumber Engineer also noted here, as if the author wrote in the article the improvement of these cartridges was of great importance the use as charges of new types of powder, in particular powder of spherical granulation. The key word here is perfection, i.e. improvement of the existing one - probably a connoisseur of tapered threads and angles with spiders in the assault does not know that since 1984 in the army 7,62X39 they began to use spherical gunpowder CCNf30 / 3,97, so the author of the article made no mistake and the great connoisseur of Schmeiser sat down again in a puddle.
  13. Fight cat 8 November 2015 10: 59 New
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    eh, it was still necessary to switch to 6.5mm, the most successful cartridge in its class! No wonder the Fedor machine was under 6.5X50
    1. Bormanxnumx 11 December 2015 23: 44 New
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      Quote: Fighting Cat
      eh, it was still necessary to switch to 6.5mm, the most successful cartridge in its class! No wonder the Fedor machine was under 6.5X50

      The cartridge 6,5 × 55mm Swedish Mauser is at least no worse than the Japanese, just in WWI the Russian Empire bought Arissak rifles cartridges for it in a fair amount. Here Fedorov used what was at hand.
      1. tropic 17 December 2015 00: 00 New
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        Quote: BORMAN82
        Cartridge 6,5 × 55mm Swedish Mauser at least no worse than Japanese

        Of course. He is even much better. If with the Japanese, AF could sometimes pretend to be an automatic weapon, then with a Swede it would be practically impossible to do this. Approximately, as the first AF on the Mauser cartridge with a non-native bullet (some of this miracle proudly call the Fedorov cartridge).
        What only shkolota on the Internet does not carry. Straight ears wither.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. tropic 16 December 2015 23: 55 New
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      Quote: Fighting Cat
      eh, it was still necessary to switch to 6.5mm, the most successful cartridge in its class! No wonder the Fedor machine was under 6.5X50

      When you don’t understand something, it’s better to chew than talk.
      Quote: Fighting Cat
      No wonder the Fedor machine was under 6.5X50

      It is a pity, he did not work. Because could not. The laws of physics were in the way. And so, of course, was a brilliant thing. Like everything else, mythical.
  14. 4thParasinok 17 December 2015 01: 06 New
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    and here this troll was noted ...
  15. E.S.A. 18 October 2019 12: 03 New
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    The first work on the development of an intermediate cartridge in the Soviet Union began in 1939, but the question of their creation was raised even earlier. To study this issue in the USSR, a 5,45 mm caliber cartridge was created, and even a task was given to create a self-loading rifle for a new cartridge. But in connection with the outbreak of World War II, Soviet designers temporarily switched to more relevant types of work.

    Well, FIG knows that for the 5,45 mm intermediate cartridge was created in the pre-war USSR, but I have doubts. Because the pre-war experienced small-caliber cartridge was very different than the author mentions.