Military Review

"Peoples of the Sea". Armor and weapons (part ten)

97
So, the invasion of the "peoples of the sea" was a massive migration of peoples, somewhat similar to the current exodus of Syrians and Africans to Europe. Only now German schoolchildren change their bedding for them there (they themselves are too unhappy for this!), And the volunteers clean up the trash left, and then the uncivilized Egyptians met them with spears and swords, and the copulative organs were cut off from the defeated, and they also portrayed it. ” event "on the walls of their temples. Do you know why? To avoid fraud! After all, if you cut off your hands, then how will you figure out where are yours, and where are strangers and who will check for the extra absence of a pair of hands from your own ... And here everything is obvious: the Egyptians were cut off, and the rest were not. So here everything is without forgery and overstating the "indicators"!


"Peoples of the Sea". Armor and weapons (part ten)

Warriors at all times loved to flirt with pretty women! Artist J. Rava.

Well, how did the warriors of the “nations of the sea” look like, we already partially considered in those materials where it was a question of the Trojan war itself. However, now we will discuss its consequences, especially since the spread of dates is quite large for 1250 - 1100. BC. However, it is great for us, and people of that time lived slowly, because mobile phones did not exist yet.

So, the most complete information about the "sea peoples" we get from the reliefs and inscriptions from Medinet Habu. This is a memorial temple, which was built by Ramses III at Thebes, in Upper Egypt. The decoration of the temple consists of a series of reliefs and texts about military campaigns against the Libyans and the "peoples of the sea." The events depicted date around 1191 or 1184 BC. And they also provide valuable information about the armor and ammunition of the various groups of "sea peoples" with whom the Egyptians grappled, and they can also give the keys to deciphering their ethnic origin. The image of the fights on land and at sea give a huge amount of information about the armament of "sea peoples". In particular, the reliefs depicting the battle on the ground show the Egyptian troops, who fight the enemy, who also uses chariots, very similar in design to the Egyptian chariot. Another famous relief in Medinet Habu depicts a sea battle. The Egyptians and the "peoples of the sea" use sailing ships as the main means of maritime navigation. And here is the text: “The peoples who came from their islands among the sea, they entered Egypt, relying on their weapon. But everything was prepared to catch them. Having stepped into the harbor, they were locked up in it ... "Well, then the Egyptians apparently defeated them due to their size and good military organization.


Warrior of the people of Shardan with a horn of blue and clearly in a metal, bronze helmet. Relief from the temple in Luxor.

Now we turn to the armor and start with the helmets - “fortresses for the head.” The reliefs from Medinet Habu, Luxor and Abu Simbel show us 22 sorts of horned helmets belonging to the warriors of the people of Shardan. Of these, one horn is shown only on two helmets, the rest of them are two, and their profiles are very similar. The 13 helmets have a ball on a stick between the horns. Nine don't have one. 17 helmets are given only in outline (as children used to paint Germans in helmets with horns), four helmets are filled inside with horizontal stripes, one “brickwork” and vertical stripes on one strip. This allows us to conclude that the horns and the ball were a kind of symbol of this tribe, and the helmets themselves could be solid forged from bronze (and even molded - one such molded helmet was found in Central Asia at one time), and assembled from “rings” leather with stuffing like a baby pyramid.


Philistine of Medinet Abu

Accordingly, the Philistines wore their characteristic “feather” helmet-tiara. On the bas-reliefs it is clear that the Shardans are fighting with the Philistines, that is, the Egyptians, as civilized people, already knew how to work with someone else's hands!


Pharaoh's Shardans fight the Philistines. Artist J. Rava.

Shardan armor is shown very carefully on the reliefs. As a rule, it is a cuirass with rounded shoulder pads made up of metal bands. British historians call this type of armor "lobster tail." It is clear that the material on the fresco can not be determined. Therefore, it can be assumed that this armor could be A - leather, B - from fabric (glued flax), or C - mixed - from metal and non-metal parts. The Greek historian of reconstruction Katsikis Dimitrios, using images of Medinet Habu and artifacts of the Athens Museum of Archeology, restored one such armor, and it turned out that it is quite functional.


Shardan warriors from the temple of Medinette Abu in characteristic robes "with stripes" V-shaped. What is it? Drawing on the fabric or image of some elements of the protective armor of metal or leather?


Breastplate of Katsikis Dimitrios.


Leggings and helmet of Kathsys Dimitrios shardan.

The Philistines, judging by the reliefs from Medinet Habu, also wore similar armor, but their shoulders were not always shown. The overall impression of the picture, they were very flexible, in any case, the bodies in the metal cuirass would not bend like that. This means that the “armor” was made of fabric, or it was just clothing with a characteristic striped pattern.


Philistines in battle. Midinet Abu.

Shardan shields were round, large, with a central handle. On the surface they had metal umbrellas, and they, most likely, were woven from a rod and covered with a bull skin. The frescoes from Akrotiri, which were cited in the previous materials, gave grounds for the artist Giuseppe Rava to depict the warriors from Cyprus, who also apparently had to fight with the “sea peoples” in exact accordance with the image on these frescoes.


Warriors with frescoes in Akrotiri return from a hike. “Women were shouting hurray and throwing their caps into the air!” Artist J. Rava.


Reconstruction of the appearance of the warrior Shardan Katsikis Dimitrios.

The weapons of the "sea peoples" warriors consisted of spears, long swords, axes, as well as bows and arrows. The swords were most likely similar in shape to such long blades in 90. One of them was found near Jaffa and dates back to 2000 BC. Interestingly, this huge blade (very often found on images of shardan warriors) consists of almost pure copper with a small amount of arsenic. A remarkable number (about 30) of similar swords (about 1600 BC) was also found in a cave on the island of Sardinia. So in this case, the composition of the metal was the same as the above-mentioned sample. That is, Sardinia and Jaffa were connected ... by sea, along which ships sailed back and forth at that far time with warriors who had such long swords.


Sword from Jaffa.


Ax. Archaeological Museum in Athens.





Reconstruction of the sword rapier.

A very interesting bronze sword was found in Ugarit in Syria. And it is interesting, first of all, by the fact that on its blade near the handle there is a cartouche with the name of Pharaoh Merneptah and it means that this is the work of the Egyptians. But to whom it was intended - the actual Egyptian soldiers or mercenaries, Shardan, accustomed to "work" with such long swords - this is a question.

Well, in general, Medinet Habu is still the most important source for our acquaintance with the "peoples of the sea". On this day, when this source was discovered, one could only thank the ancient Egyptians who created this funeral temple, which gives us so much valuable information. And although his images are also confirmed by the reliefs in the temples of Luxor and Abu Simbel, it is he who remains the real visualized encyclopedia of the "peoples of the sea."


Phrygian with "swords of Jaffa." Medinet Habu

But the map, created on the basis of archaeological finds and text messages, allows you to visually follow the migration routes of "sea peoples". As you can see, it was a real outcome, not inferior in scale and modern crowded movements ...


Movement "of the peoples of the sea." A. Sheps

In conclusion, it is worth noting that not only are numerous books published abroad stories Trojan War and the armor and armor of the Bronze Age in Greece and other areas of the Ancient World, but also very popular military miniature of the "white metal". There are several international scales in which these figures are cast, and then they ... "play."


Figures of shardan warriors Michael and Alan Perry. Price 12 pounds. Height 28 mm. Sold unpainted.
Author:
Articles from this series:
Weapons and armor of soldiers of the Trojan War. Swords and daggers (part one)
Armor of the Trojan War (part two)
Armor warriors of the Trojan War. Helmets (part three)
http://topwar.ru/83250-schity-troyanskoy-voyny-chast-chetvertaya.html
Weapons of the Trojan War. Spears (part five)
Weapons of the Trojan War. Bow and Arrows (part six)
The Trojan War and its reconstruction (seventh part) - ending
Trojan War: ships and chariots
The Trojan War and the "peoples of the sea." “English historians report ...” (part nine)
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  1. tanit
    tanit 26 October 2015 07: 41 New
    +3
    Libyan from unsuccessful intruders.
    1. siberalt
      siberalt 26 October 2015 22: 40 New
      +1
      Civilization came from the North. For, by the warm sea, you can live on fish and shells for free. That is why the old woman and the old man pinched. They would only give a goldfish. laughing
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 28 October 2015 03: 56 New
        +1
        Civilization came from the North. For, by the warm sea, you can live on fish and shells for free. That is why the old woman and the old man pinched. They would only give a goldfish.


        Are you talking about Eskimos?
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 26 October 2015 07: 51 New
    +2
    .. Interestingly, the movement of the peoples of the sea was not spontaneous, but organized, and over time ..
  3. misterwulf
    misterwulf 26 October 2015 09: 44 New
    +2
    Yes, it's some kind of Crusades! So don’t believe after that laughing
  4. misterwulf
    misterwulf 26 October 2015 10: 28 New
    0
    No, well, anyone familiar with the history of the Cross of the Heart, will not let you lie. It creates a steady feeling of deja vu.
    As a resident of the Crimea, this is very familiar. Here, the same events were repeated 2-3 or 4 times until the 1650s. (end of the 30-year war in Europe, Pereyaslavskaya Rada and the final accession of the Romanovs (legally recognized), notes by Evliya Celebi with precise geographical and topographic locations, etc. ....).
    One story of Simferopol knows 3 cities with different names and different owners (even ethnically) and ... with the same history.
    About Sevastopol and Feodosia with Kerch, I generally keep quiet.

    What are the 3 "Khazars". "match by territory, and 2 by name. wink
    And there, in general, "the case is dark." The above map tracks (for example) the 3rd Crusade and precisely the campaign of Richard the Lionheart of England and Frederick Barbarossa of Nematsky ....

    And by the way, where was the story written in the basis that we are studying? In England and Germany ...
    1. Glot
      Glot 26 October 2015 11: 21 New
      +6
      No, well, anyone familiar with the history of the Cross of the Heart, will not let you lie.


      Sign a bit. No, there is no feeling of deja vu. smile
      And the images on the reliefs by no means remind me of the crusaders or the soldiers of the same Saladin. winked

      And by the way, where was the story written in the basis that we are studying? In England and Germany ...


      It was written everywhere, everywhere from Russia to Africa. smile
      Or should we study history written only by Russian historians? It reminds me of the neighbors. They also actively write their story. smile
      1. miru mir
        miru mir 26 October 2015 14: 28 New
        +2
        Christianity did not exist in those ancient times smile
      2. Seal
        Seal 10 January 2019 12: 31 New
        0
        Images could be anything. So during the USSR I traveled a lot along its edges and scales. And I remember that somehow in Salekhard I just went nuts from a huge street portrait of V.I. Lenin. Since instead of Lenin some very narrow-eyed hunter was looking at me. Or Mansi.
        And here is that
        “The peoples who arrived from their islands in the middle of the sea, they entered Egypt, relying on their weapons. But everything was prepared to catch them. Sneaking into the harbor, they were locked in it ... "
        is just a short description of the unsuccessful campaign for the crusaders in Egypt under the leadership of Louis XI - ohhhhh very similar.
        Or should we study history written only by Russian historians? It reminds me of the neighbors. They are also actively writing their story.

        No need to study history written by someone. For in this case you are studying not history, but personal views on how this or that writer on historical topics could once have been there. You need to study photocopies of documents attached to historical research (books, works). But if no photocopies of genuine documents are attached to historical studies (books, works), then this study can, of course, be read. But to believe that after reading you began to know the story is naive.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. ando_bor
      ando_bor 26 October 2015 12: 17 New
      +4
      All major historical movers have one reason - climatic changes, while their landscapes are expanding and peoples attached to them multiply (people are primarily attached to the landscape) and occupy their expanded landscape, other peoples’s habitual landscape is degrading, and they are depressed .
      These changes occur cyclically, - 600 years, just the intensity of the cycles is different, 1200 years BC is perhaps the most powerful change in the history of civilization - the collapse of the Bronze Age, most states did not survive it. After 4 cycles, the Mongols became infected, they multiplied and flooded. - It should be understood that before the Mongols came to Russia, Mongolia came there, drought, cold, forests burn, fields burn, - and then the Mongols pinned down. Something like the ancient Egyptians had, only the peoples of the sea had a different landscape and they became prettier, unlike the Egyptians. The Crusades are also associated with these reasons, but I don’t understand all the mechanisms there - I don’t know those places very well - Europe and the Middle East.
      1. kalibr
        26 October 2015 21: 02 New
        +2
        There is a theory of Malthus, which in the USSR they were scolded, scolded, criticized ... But they could not kill it at all. In the meantime, she explains all this and moreover, based on it, we have two (at least I know two) history books for school in Russia — Dr. Peace and Wed. Century. It is very interesting to read them.
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 28 October 2015 04: 22 New
        +1
        The Crusades are also associated with these reasons, but I don’t understand all the mechanisms there - I don’t know those places very well - Europe and the Middle East.

        In Europe there were too many "younger sons" with a coat of arms and a sword, but without land. So that they do not stir in their native penates, they canalized to Asia with the benefit of those in power.

        The reason for a historical event is never one. Always complex.
        1. marline
          marline 28 October 2015 08: 14 New
          +1
          Quote: Aljavad
          ... lest they brawl in their native land, their canalized to Asia for the benefit of those in power ...

          For "channeling" you a huge good
    4. marline
      marline 26 October 2015 13: 18 New
      +3
      Quote: misterwulf
      No, well, anyone familiar with the history of the Cross of the Heart, will not let you lie. It creates a steady feeling of deja vu ...
      ... According to the given map, the 3rd Crusade is tracked (for example) and precisely the campaign of Richard the Lionheart of England and Frederick Barbarossa of Nematsky ....

      Really strange ... Although it may just the same road?
      Is that really where else they can get in? This is exactly the same as the Goths at one time, then the Huns, and then the Mongol-Tatars from Asia to Europe, perls, and before them, and in any other way, one thread has traveled more than once ...
      Quote: misterwulf
      And by the way, where was the story written in the basis that we are studying? In England and Germany ...

      First in Greece, then in Rome, then in Europe (Russia is part of Europe, if you have not forgotten yet) ... back in Assyria, Egypt and China ... in general, history was written wherever they could write, well, the winners, of course .
    5. Aljavad
      Aljavad 28 October 2015 04: 16 New
      0
      No, well, anyone familiar with the history of the Cross of the Heart, will not let you lie. It creates a steady feeling of deja vu.


      "Our whole life is either a gulba or a fire."

      Everyone who studied in the 6th grade of high school is “familiar” with the history of the Crusades. But déjà vu (written in Russian with the capital only as the name of, for example, a film) is created if you do not delve into the details, but remain at the same level of the 6th grade.

      The above map tracks (for example) the 3rd Crusade and precisely the campaign of Richard the Lionheart of England and Frederick Barbarossa of Nematsky ....

      The map shows ONLY the direction of possible migration from the Balkans to Asia Minor through the Bosphorus. And this is not a map at all. And the scheme, where rivers, mountains, bridges and villages are ignored, which the "migrants" could not pass. They did not follow the line in a straight line, just like Barbarossa did. And yet, yes, related to the 3rd cross.
  5. misterwulf
    misterwulf 26 October 2015 13: 14 New
    +1
    Quote: Glot
    It reminds me of the neighbors. They also actively write their story.

    Well, there are 140 years of history. There are many periods and deja vu laughing

    We are observing another now.
    1. marline
      marline 26 October 2015 13: 24 New
      +2
      Quote: misterwulf

      Well, there are 140 years of history ... We are observing another now.

      +5. I remembered the picture from VO
  6. Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 26 October 2015 13: 17 New
    +3
    Thank you very much for the article !!! I learned something new about myself about EGYPT. I read it with pleasure. Photos are wonderful !!! I am interested in Ancient Egypt and everything connected with It. It turns out that the ancient Egyptians understood the situation with refugees more than 3000 years ago much better than modern Europeans.
    1. kalibr
      26 October 2015 20: 59 New
      +5
      Well, wait for the sequels. Contacted by the Greek Society of reenactors - they are allowed to use their photos!
  7. misterwulf
    misterwulf 26 October 2015 13: 24 New
    +1
    Yes there - not really refugees. Although the name of the current I'm not sure.
    ----------------

    Continuing the idea of ​​the Crusades. And who knows EXACTLY what the crusader of the 1100-1300s looked like? This is a time. And two - this is the 3rd sons, who, according to the French fairy tale, got only the "cat in boots". What are not refugees?

    This is in the era of the formation of centralized states (16-18 centuries) they were "attached" as the Royal Musketeers and other Life Guards.
    And then, adventurers. Refugees for wealth.
    1. Glot
      Glot 26 October 2015 13: 49 New
      +3
      Continuing the idea of ​​the Crusades. And who knows EXACTLY what the crusader of the 1100-1300s looked like? It once


      Well, obviously not half-naked, with a bronze sword and a skin-covered shield. smile
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. kalibr
      26 October 2015 16: 51 New
      +3
      Well, what the crusaders looked like we know very precisely. The effigy of that time reached us and all the details of the weapons were reproduced on them very accurately. And it is so precise that the rings on the chainmail and the hinges on the legs are visible, so it is clear that they opened like doors. And these are 1220-s years - the Albigoye Wars and the crusades. And there are earlier ...
  8. misterwulf
    misterwulf 26 October 2015 14: 06 New
    0
    Quote: Glot
    Well, obviously not half-naked, with a bronze sword and a skin-covered shield.

    And what does our soldier or NATO soldier look like in Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan NOW? Is it really the same as, for example, on the 60th parallel (S-Pb-Magadan)? I myself have not been there in that capacity, but most of them not only wear helmets, but also don’t wear much else. I was here in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, so on ... except for a T-shirt and shorts there was no nichrome (+ BZhT laughing ).
    So everything is relative.
    1. Glot
      Glot 26 October 2015 14: 19 New
      0
      And what does our soldier or NATO soldier look like in Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan NOW?


      Well, it will all depend on the commander. Some will fight in shorts, others - in full, and even in polished boots or boots. laughing
      No, do you sound your idea to the end?
      Do you think that the events described in the article were not and all this is fiction, a mirror image of later events to extend the chronology? smile
      But here this version does not roll. At least because of the images remaining both from the period described in the article and from the period of the Crusades. winked
      1. misterwulf
        misterwulf 26 October 2015 14: 29 New
        0
        I don’t think so, but I ASSUME. Well, I can’t imagine myself at a block post in polished boots and a pea coat here in the summer. fool
        Regarding the chronology, I do not argue, but the fighters of 1200 BC look painfully suspicious. and fighters 1200 g. And the image is not clear. Copper there, bronze or iron. laughing
        1. Glot
          Glot 26 October 2015 15: 58 New
          +2
          I don’t think so, but I ASSUME. I don’t argue about the chronology, but the fighters of 1200 BC look painfully suspicious. and fighters 1200 g. And the image is not clear. Copper there, bronze or iron


          Why are they so suspicious?
          Well, even if the image is not clear what kind of metal the swords have, that is, archaeological finds. Including these very bronze swords. And not only swords. There are finds both from the time of the "people of the sea" and from the time of the Cross Wars. And finally, if you read anything about medieval campaigns in the Holy Land, you should know that those people that are pictured here are different from the images of medieval warriors, not only with swords and shields, but also with other ammunition and weapons.
          So the ambiguity of the metal in these images does not play a plus in your version.

          Well, I can’t imagine myself at a block post in polished boots and a pea coat here in the summer.


          On a summer night at a pea coat post, it’s quite useful for yourself. smile
          And so of course during the day, cook. laughing
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. kalibr
          26 October 2015 16: 52 New
          0
          Iron archaeologists do not find ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. marline
      marline 26 October 2015 14: 25 New
      0
      Quote: misterwulf
      And what does our soldier or NATO soldier look like in Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan NOW? Is it really the same as, for example, on the 60th parallel (S-Pb-Magadan)? I myself have not been there in that capacity, but most of them not only wear helmets, but also don’t wear much else. I was here in the Ministry of Internal Affairs, so on ... except for a T-shirt and shorts there was no nichrome (+ BZhT laughing ).

      This is if the airfield service ... and in the field, or rather in the desert on the sand, you can fry eggs ... Anyway, these are issues of thermoregulation - look at the Arabs, they have nat. all clothes are closed, and everything is quite logical, because on the street +45 - +50, and under a fur coat +36 ... physics, however ...
      1. Glot
        Glot 26 October 2015 16: 06 New
        +3
        This is if the airfield service staff ... and in the field, more precisely in the desert on the sand you can fry eggs ...


        Wow, you can not only boil chicken eggs, but also your own. laughing
        I remember in Tadzh about stupidity I almost cooked.
        I don’t remember why, but I had to urgently drive off somewhere in the summer on BET. And he stood in the sun for half a day. We climbed on the armor, I'm on the tower, KPVT between the legs laughing but, he jumped up in a thin masked suit, didn’t put anything under his ass. Although he knew, and the grandfathers shouted that he’d put something but, he thought garbage, it’s not far ... Yeah, it was a real trip to a hot pan !!! I already tried to pry up, and then sit with one roll and then another. laughing Then the truth already became anyway, it seemed like it was frying and ok, but as the armor got up, I was still demolished from the tower with great speed. laughing laughing laughing
    4. brn521
      brn521 27 October 2015 13: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: misterwulf
      And what NOW does our soldier or NATO soldier look like in Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan

      The NATO soldier is obliged to wear a bulletproof vest and a helmet in any situation. Otherwise, insurance is cut.
  9. rusik090
    rusik090 26 October 2015 14: 26 New
    +4
    If your warrior costume isn’t able to please the enemy with its elegance, then you cannot defeat it bully

    By the way, the French, up to the 1st World War, refused to change into a protective color uniform, how primitive prejudices were still strong.
  10. misterwulf
    misterwulf 26 October 2015 16: 26 New
    0
    Quote: ru ik090
    By the way, the French, up to the 1st World War, refused to change into a protective color uniform, how primitive prejudices were still strong.


    AND! Raspberry pants to say 2 times "KU"!laughing
  11. misterwulf
    misterwulf 26 October 2015 16: 43 New
    +2
    By the way, about fried eggs. The familiar "internationalist" told laughing as he was somewhere in East Africa. Either Somalia or Tanzania. Somewhere. On the street for 40 degrees. Negroes with machine guns are sitting on the T-55 armor and .... absolutely naked am And the fried eggs are not fried ....
    1. Glot
      Glot 26 October 2015 16: 47 New
      +1
      Negroes with machine guns are sitting on the T-55 armor and .... absolutely naked And they don’t fry eggs ...


      So everything has already been fried. laughing
      And so, I'm not a black man. smile Someone can sleep in the snow, and without problems, and someone from a draft of pneumonia picks up. smile
    2. marline
      marline 26 October 2015 16: 58 New
      +1
      Yes, they have the wrong system laughing
    3. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 27 October 2015 07: 35 New
      0
      Or they just don’t serve it. They will quickly be laughed at, if you show weakness.
    4. Aljavad
      Aljavad 28 October 2015 04: 31 New
      0
      Negroes with machine guns are sitting on the T-55 armor and .... absolutely naked am And they don’t fry eggs ...


      Australian Aborigines at 0 degrees - not chill! Naked

      We are all humans. But sooo different.

      (and why is pygmy basketball not popular? request )
  12. Pcorda38
    Pcorda38 26 October 2015 18: 23 New
    +3
    You Russians have a hard head ... but in the end you will be suporters of Sardinia !! laughing





    bully

    special armor
    1. kalibr
      26 October 2015 18: 55 New
      +1
      Someone did not understand what the person wanted to say and put a minus ...
      1. Pcorda38
        Pcorda38 26 October 2015 23: 36 New
        +5
        stubborn = masterful ... in a good way.

        If a person does not understand, make the score less. This is the fault of the writer!

        The Russian language is very, very beautiful, but too much too complicated (for us Italians).

        I will continue to follow "Topwar" with interest and great sympathy. fantastic site. Anyway, a big big hug from Italy. Russia is always alive.
        Hug Paola.
        Hello! good




        Ps: I forgot ... Today, the Russian military are in Sardinia to view NATO exercises!
  13. Pcorda38
    Pcorda38 26 October 2015 18: 27 New
    +1
    Full statue
  14. Bashibuzuk
    Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 19: 32 New
    -2
    No one had the idea that these horned helmets are just Vikings.
    In its traditional outfit.
    And the "peoples of the sea" are those who, on the other hand, are from the Vikings.
    The Vikings that in Byzantium were in the service, that they took part in the campaigns of Svyatoslav.
    ....
    You guys, as you want, but I still made a strange sensation from school, namely - deja vu ....
    everything repeats ... the great migration of peoples, Huns, Tatar-Mongols ..... Hyksos, Persians, Greeks.
    Something from the millennium to the millennium is one and the same.
    Or really everything is going in a spiral.
    Or just a story - like Russian folk tales. About the same thing. In other words.
    And I met with HX much later than school, at the age of 40. And then and not only with HX.
    .
    Not a single artifact will convince me.
    Because for a dozen artifacts introduced into scientific use, there are hundreds of artifacts - NOT SUITABLE in the entered everyday life.
    Do not fit into the mainstream.
    .
    Roman Empire ... brilliance and beauty. And then - the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation. Also shine and beauty.
    Who was the first?
    The question is from the category of the Ukrainian new chronology. The first were Ukrainians.
    Why do we consider the holy Roman Germans more sensible?
    Why do we think the Greeks are beyond jurisdiction.
    Why do we believe the Egyptians. And with aspiration we repeat their legends for the Chinese?
    .
    Recent history - constantly breaking spears about the Great Patriotic War. Stalin is spat on, now choked with delight.
    How do we check what happened 3 thousand years ago?
    Believe?
    .
    Well, who wants to - believe it.
    1. Glot
      Glot 26 October 2015 19: 55 New
      +3
      No one had the idea that these horned helmets are just Vikings.
      In its traditional outfit.


      And what else is there besides the “horned helmets” traditionally Wiging? smile

      Or really everything is going in a spiral.


      Maybe. So what ?

      And I met with HX much later than school, at the age of 40


      Acquaintance with those books began. Bad is the company.

      Not a single artifact will convince me.


      This is bad ...

      Because for a dozen artifacts introduced into scientific use, there are hundreds of artifacts - NOT SUITABLE in the entered everyday life.


      Can you list at least a dozen of the hundreds?

      Roman Empire ... brilliance and beauty. And then - the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation. Also shine and beauty.
      Who was the first?


      And there was also the era of Hellenism. Where the splendor and beauty was no less, and which actually fueled the creation of the Roman splendor and beauty.
      With Hellenistic civilizations who parallelize?

      Recent history - constantly breaking spears about the Great Patriotic War. Stalin is spat on, now choked with delight.
      How do we check what happened 3 thousand years ago?


      Invalid comparison.
      Let me explain.
      WWII was? It was! We won ? Yes ! Who denies this? No one yet. It's hard for now ...
      But spitting or praising one or another leader, this is politics.
      With the same success, we can deny or agree that, for example, Nero was a narcissistic pervert or not, BUT, we cannot reject the existence of Rome on this basis.
      Do you understand the idea? Do you feel the difference between HISTORY and PERSONALITY in history, between the momentary benefit of covering certain figures and the general layer of history in which this figure lived?

      Well, who wants to - believe it.


      Thank God, the vast majority believe. So not everything is so bad. So we won’t jump.
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 20: 34 New
        -2
        The gulp, for a start, would get rid of the boorish manner of communication.
        I am not in defense of the dissertation; you are not my opponent.
        Spread the text on sentences and insert "deep-wise" remarks - the lowest level of opposition, such as - itself is inadequate for the letter -d-.
        There would be nothing to say except hihanek da hahanek, they would be silent.
        Maybe they would have passed for smart.
        .
        Vyacheslav, who has done a great job, deserves respect already because he firmly acts within the framework of his discipline and direction.
        In which direction are you acting?
        .
        You will not jump. Have you done something else, or what?
        .
        In short, an emergency.
        1. kalibr
          26 October 2015 20: 47 New
          +2
          Dear Igor Vladimirovich! You do not need to be angry with him, because in essence he is right, although he is unwinding your comment to pieces. Everything repeats everything, everything is cyclical. Drought, wet period ", there is nothing people migrate. Migrate constantly. Like now! When with a weapon, when without it ... Different level of culture. So it is not surprising that it seems that it repeats. And it really repeats. But the level is different. So let both of you reconcile it.
          It’s a pity that my best and biggest book on this topic was published in Germany and its price is so ... that I simply cannot recommend it. And so in it all the English-speaking historiography of armor and weapons with links to monographs and authors. There is something about 500 page. Two books should be published this year in EKSMO - one about 30 copyright knights and samurai - 25 copyright. (1 auth.leaf 40000 characters). But ... see what the situation is? Who will buy them?
          1. Bashibuzuk
            Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 20: 52 New
            0
            Here I am, dear Vyacheslav, now and then I constantly inserted sometimes malicious remarks, then I was simply enthusiastic. That was cool.
            You calmly, silently, consistently suffered my unbearable character.
            When they objected (as a rule), when they passed by (which will be even more true).
            That's why for some reason you and I do not have to put up with anything, huh? Although ... not to say that do not spill water.
            And according to the articles, if I were with you in intelligence, I would risk it.
            With the Throat - not a shit.
            Why so?
          2. Bashibuzuk
            Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 21: 05 New
            0
            About your research in the Japanese style and medieval effigies, I do not mind that.
            I am amazed at the scrupulousness.
            Himself in Cologne Cathedral literally sniffed and licked all these tombstones.
            There is nothing to talk about.
            Everything is worthy.
            .
            But about the "peoples of the sea" ... and the Phaistos disk, with concrete Knossos .... the topic, as they say.
            Sailors such, the sailor himself, will lie and will not blink an eye.
            The Egyptians walked by sea. Greeks with the Phoenicians - how else.
            So we learned to whistle, from the heart.
          3. Glot
            Glot 26 October 2015 21: 30 New
            +2
            You do not need to be angry with him, because in essence he is right, although he pulls your comment into pieces.


            And what is angry then?
            The man expressed his opinion, I - his.
            And, another Fomenkovets merged without answering questions.
            Everything is as usual with them. No wonder even. request
          4. Aljavad
            Aljavad 28 October 2015 04: 44 New
            0
            Two books are due out this year at EKSMO - one about 30 copyright knights and 25 copyright about samurai. (1 auto sheet of 40000 characters). But ... see what situation? Who will buy them?


            Let me know when they come out!
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. kalibr
      26 October 2015 20: 39 New
      +1
      Because for a dozen artifacts introduced into scientific use, there are hundreds of artifacts - NOT SUITABLE in the entered everyday life.
      Here you are wrong. If this were so, archeology would consist of some discoveries. Alas, it is not so - boring is a science. A lot of shards and ... little interesting. And on 1000, suitable items of all 1 are not suitable. So discoveries are rare. Well, what you think ... I also think that all the machines are the same: iron and smell oil. In addition, the Vikings did not wear horns with horns. Not worn at all! One helmet is known, obviously ritual and the horns are completely different there. All the combat that they found - smooth.
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 20: 43 New
        0
        Well, for example, take and read Michael Cremo "Forbidden Archeology"
        Well, for example, take and read A. Tyurin - http://artifact.org.ru/kalibrovka-teorii/am-tyurin-sostoyanie-datirovaniya-sobi

        tiya-izverzhenie-vezuviya-79-goda-po-fakticheskim-dannim.html.
        .
        For example, driving into a search engine is falsification of history.
        .
        And here....
        .
        PS. Only I will be glad if I can, Vyacheslav, extend my life. Your publications, this is a layer. A worthy layer of research.
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 27 October 2015 07: 57 New
          +1
          Better go to the library. Although there are many worthy sources on the Internet. At least drive the key phrase "Norman helmet" into the search engine in the "image search" section
          Then try to find a horned helmet there. Moreover, to not plastic or a reproduction of cartoons, but a photo of iron, from a museum or made in a forge. Well, or in ancient images, at worst.
          And there we’ll talk and discuss.
        2. kalibr
          27 October 2015 11: 13 New
          0
          Thank you for rating. But it should be so! In my opinion, the historian cannot, has no right to write otherwise. Here are the finds, so you look at them, notice every little thing. You read what others wrote about it. You see what they went by. Pointing to it. You compare with other objects - then you write, you express your opinion. For every fact and example - a link. All those who write differently - on a big rise and insight overnight cause my strong doubts. Moreover, I myself know the methodology of how to write such "breakthrough" materials, but I myself know that this is not a story. And about the falsification ... Of course it is, like bestiality, by the way. But not at all on the scale presented to us by the media!
    3. marline
      marline 26 October 2015 20: 54 New
      +2
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      You guys, as you want, but I still made a strange feeling from school, namely, deja vu ... everything repeats ... the great migration of peoples, Huns, Tatar-Mongols ..... Hyksos, Persians, Greeks ... Something from the millennium to the millennium is the same ... Either everything really goes in a spiral.

      You just taught history poorly at school, unfortunately ...
      Look here: The campaign of Alexander the Great to Persia (to the east) - one and a half thousand years later - the Crusades (again to the east) ... It would seem déjà vu ...
      But figs to you: why did Alexander the Great go east? Beyond the Bubble ... he didn’t hide it ... he didn’t even think of hiding it.
      But why did the crusaders go east? REQUEST THE Coffin of the LORD ... and, yes, of course, most of the crusaders still trample on the dough, but this is already hiding, it is indecent to talk about it in society ... and, yes, there were those who went for the IDEA ... you understand difference? Are you ready to go for the idea? Or just like Alexander the Great - behind the BABLE ???
      1. Bashibuzuk
        Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 20: 57 New
        0
        Our dear merlin .....
        What class did you learn about Olbia?
        And in FIFTH grade I surprised my history teacher with a report about Olbia.
        Where is this - say, without a search engine?
        .
        Say, we will continue to talk.
        1. marline
          marline 26 October 2015 21: 03 New
          0
          Am I on an exam? Olbia is a Greek colony ... And I also surprised my history teachers ...
          You know in the fifth grade, the entry was: "arguing in a history lesson with a teacher" ... And, yes - this is not an indicator ... and your right not to communicate with me
          1. Bashibuzuk
            Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 21: 07 New
            0
            What for?
            I asked, you answered with dignity.
            There is no question.
            Moreover, I love those who argue with teachers.
            1. marline
              marline 26 October 2015 21: 23 New
              +1
              Quote: Bashibuzuk
              Moreover, I love those who argue with teachers.

              In general, you are not alone in this ... However, in fairness, my long tongue often led to my fifth point in big problems ... wink
              Although this is lyrics ... Sorry, if my post offended you, I wrote more about what I understood at school - history moves in a spiral, then I really realized that this is all garbage and there is no spiral ... in my the current view is more like a non-linear dynamic system.
              1. Bashibuzuk
                Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 21: 34 New
                0
                Dynamic system.
                Yes, and non-linear.
                We both seem to love physics very much. Or we work with physical phenomena.
                .
                I believe that there is no spiral. Dialectics is applicable only to the spirit, to the immateriality of mankind.
                In reality, in practice, everything went sequentially and gradually.
                Learned to melt copper, switched to bronze. Then to iron and steel. Then they engaged in titanium, vanadium and zircon.
                And no one ever forgot what was passed. Otherwise, who are they - nerds?
                Centuries of Dark Ages - WASN’T.
                Because there were no these Dark Ages themselves.
                .
                Well, why would Milanese gunsmiths repeat Corinthian helmets?
                Already played reenactors? With a meager material base?
                No!!!
                This was the era of Corinthian helmets.
                Only very quickly switched to full armety.
                .
                Can you imagine the workshops of Rome where they produce weapons, ABSOLUTELY ONE TYPE, for twelve legions?
                Not counting the allied and auxiliary troops.
                Where are the workshops? For some reason, no one writes about them.
                And these are such manufactories that England did not dream of 16-17 centuries.
                ....
                The main criterion is materiality, economics. And a technical opportunity.
                There is neither one nor the other in antiquity.
                So ...?
                1. marline
                  marline 26 October 2015 22: 17 New
                  +1
                  Again, it is debatable ... There are examples of newly discovered technologies (the same damask steel was rediscovered by Anosov).
                  Further ... Corinthian helmets ... the same conditions give rise to the same technical solutions ... the same can be said about swords, for example, xyphos - gladius - katsbalger - cleaver - boarding saber ... and this is only offhand ...
                  And then you simply underestimate the degree of division of labor, in the DR it was high, despite the fact that the technologies were much more modest (a cheese-making furnace), in England with more advanced technology (gummies up to 15th century) the volume of steel production, as it is not paradoxical, remained at the same level. As for the production itself, there is information about this, for example, Spain was the center of metal production.
                  And, after all, 25 legions (rather than 12) to the entire Mediterranean - not so many.
                  1. abrakadabre
                    abrakadabre 27 October 2015 08: 38 New
                    +2
                    Up to 30 legions, to be exact.

                    As for the technology of mass or relatively mass production, stamping was not invented in the 19th century.
                    In the 16th century, medieval weapons centers were able to produce 10-15 thousand sets of armor for infantry under state orders in 8-10 months. Relevant documents have survived to this day. And the corresponding forging dies (matrix and punch) of 3-4 sizes for different armor elements made of metal also survived to this day. Moreover, they are now used for their intended purpose in several European blacksmith workshops that have existed since then. The only difference is that at one time they worked a lot, and now they get it from case to case, under the order of the next reenactor or museum.
                    The main form is attached hot in the stamp, and then manually only corrected, if necessary.
                    Fully manual forging at that time was only with an individual order, for the manufacture of armor exactly according to the figure of the owner.
                    In the era of ancient Rome, the level of production was no worse. Given that the lorica of the segmentate is much easier to manufacture - solid rectangular stripes. And even a child can handle chain weaving. The technology there is simple to primitive. Only weave for a long time. He planted a bunch of slaves for her weaving, who are working for food and the owner has spoiled less often. And that’s all.
                    The most time-consuming in the legionnaire's armor complex is a helmet. All other details at the skill level of not the most skilled apprentice.
                    1. kalibr
                      27 October 2015 11: 19 New
                      0
                      Yes, you are right. The same Heinrich the Eighth thousandth ordered armor on the continent. There are lists, prices, invoices ... the only thing that sucks is the language of Middle English. Well, it is very difficult to read and translate ... The British themselves complain.
                2. kalibr
                  27 October 2015 11: 16 New
                  +1
                  "Where are the workshops? For some reason, no one writes about them.
                  And these are such manufactories that England 16-17 of centuries did not dream of. "

                  Just write and I know who and where. But BO is not rubber and you can not print me alone, but in days 24 hours.
                3. brn521
                  brn521 27 October 2015 13: 54 New
                  +1
                  Quote: Bashibuzuk
                  in practice, everything went sequentially and gradually. We learned how to smel copper, switched to bronze. Then to iron and steel.

                  African tribes seem to have started right away with iron. Copper was also known and used. For decoration.
          2. Glot
            Glot 26 October 2015 21: 18 New
            0
            Olbia - Greek colony ...


            And who doubts?
            Milesians founded. smile
            1. Aljavad
              Aljavad 28 October 2015 04: 54 New
              0
              Olbia - Greek colony ...

              And who doubts?
              Milesians founded. smile


              This is not where one Roman poet sings a link and complains about the cold?
      2. Glot
        Glot 26 October 2015 21: 15 New
        0
        But figs to you: why did Alexander the Great go east? Beyond the Bubble ... he didn’t hide it ... he didn’t even think of hiding it.


        I think that the loot was a bonus to the general plans of the WORLD EMPIRE, headed by him.
        All the same, I think if everything rested only on one loot, I would limit myself to the Persians and their satrapies, I wouldn’t popper further.
        And here, the idea was.
        Well, all who are with him, friends, diadochi those yes, for the loot. What actually they did together after his death - the division of dough and land, each under his own kingdom. smile
        1. marline
          marline 26 October 2015 21: 33 New
          0
          Quote: Glot
          I think that the loot was a bonus to the general plans of the WORLD EMPIRE, headed by him. All the same, I think if everything rested only on one loot, I would limit myself to the Persians and their satrapies, I wouldn’t popper further.
          And here, the idea was.

          So yes, there is only one small problem - an empire is not built without concern for the heir ... and Alexander ... rather, he just buried himself ... at least it feels like reading his biography and never about building the WORLD EMPIRE . But this is my IMHO ... as you wrote there:
          Quote: Glot
          With the same success, we can deny or agree that, for example, Nero was a narcissistic pervert or not, BUT, we cannot reject the existence of Rome on this basis.
          1. Glot
            Glot 26 October 2015 21: 44 New
            0
            I agree, maybe he has gone too far. Maybe he decided that really - God, or his son.
            And yes:
            - "With the same success, we can deny or agree that for example Nero was a narcissistic pervert or not BUT, we cannot on this basis reject the existence of Rome."
            Here really, depending on which side to look and which side the info came from.
          2. Bashibuzuk
            Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 21: 49 New
            -1
            Well, as far as Glock is concerned, I already said everything.
            "..But this is my IMHO ... as you wrote there" - and so I confidently declare to you that your IMHO has nothing to do with the eared idols of Easter Island.
            .
            And what, Vadim, how do you like this objection?
            ....
            Yes, eat, ALL ANCIENT ROME has only a couple of three names. Prokhindeev from Venice and Genoa, in the 16-17th centuries.
            Do you think there was no Fomenkovschina at that time? How do we ride around here?
            .
            Now it’s easy and simple to check.
            Who checked whom at that time?
            Cagliostro - Count Casanova?
            1. marline
              marline 26 October 2015 22: 47 New
              0
              Quote: Bashibuzuk
              "..But this is my IMHO ... as you wrote there" - and so I confidently declare to you that your IMHO has nothing to do with the eared idols of Easter Island ... And what, Vadim, how do you like this objection?

              No way, I try not to discuss megaliths, pyramids, idols of Easter Island, etc. ... And the thing is not that they could not be built using those technologies ... just, I don’t understand why to build such a thing ?. .
              Quote: Bashibuzuk
              Yes, eat, ALL ANCIENT ROME has only a couple of three names. Prokhindeev from Venice and Genoa, in the 16-17th centuries.
              Do you think there was no Fomenkovschina at that time? How do we ride around here?

              There was ... always was ... unfortunately, we all want to believe in a fairy tale, for example, ABOUT GREAT AND GREAT ANCIENT RUSSIA ... The problem is that we live in the present and the greatness of our ancestors does not make us decent people. If you want to know what I am for, then for objectivity and pluralism of opinions.
              Quote: Bashibuzuk
              Now it’s easy and simple to check.

              Yes, it’s not so easy, if you think about it, on the contrary, in the past it was easier ... wink
              You understand what the problem is, here in “traditional history” you can trace a clear model of the development of society, but in the NF? It is not clear who, what where and why ...
              Or, if simpler: they say that the winners write the story, supporters of the NF say that our story is rewritten, but who defeated us? where are these winners? and whom did they defeat?
              The winners will make their people - the MOST-MOST: the most ancient, the most cultural, the most intelligent ... and what we see is the most ancient - the Egyptians (from whom nothing is left) ... culture, take China and Tibet, but there this cultures - even eat with a spoon, but China is not at all in business here ... etc. etc. Then the question is: Why all this? Who needs? And there is no purpose ...
              1. Bashibuzuk
                Bashibuzuk 26 October 2015 23: 11 New
                -1
                That's what, with what. - and I completely agree with that - "..Yes, and no purpose... "
                .
                Actually, the goal is still there ... well, do not let die goof. Never.

                .
                It's a shame to die just like that. Like a cockroach, say.
                .
                .
                And who defeated us? Well, Miller and Schletser, say. But Lomonosov lost. And Tatishchev.
                This is an incorrect statement of the question.
                .
                It needs to be formulated in another way - to set boundary, extreme, conditions - is it possible, in the conditions of artisanal production, without access to cheap energy and cheap, energy-saving technologies, to ensure REPRODUCTION of metal weapons in SCALE quantities.
                .
                The answer is unequivocal.
                Where then is History?
                Look in the direction - D_e_l_bruck, Hans G_o_tlib Leopold. Germany.
                Since our historians are not your authority.
                1. abrakadabre
                  abrakadabre 27 October 2015 08: 46 New
                  +2
                  It was artisanal in your fantasies. Artisanal was the production in the forges and other workshops in a single castle on the outskirts or in the village of the landowner. In large cities there was no scrub. If you do not know this, then this is not a problem of history, but only the level of your knowledge on the topic.
                2. marline
                  marline 27 October 2015 09: 14 New
                  0
                  Quote: Bashibuzuk
                  Actually, the goal is still there ... well, do not let die goof. Never.

                  They didn’t understand it, it meant: What purpose can the hypothetical falsifiers of history pursue?
                  Quote: Bashibuzuk
                  And who defeated us? Well, Miller and Schletser, say. But Lomonosov lost. And Tatishchev.

                  Miler, Schletser ... not a hat for Senka ... just like that, you can’t rewrite history so ... As for Russian historians, I respect it completely.
                  Quote: Bashibuzuk
                  It needs to be formulated in another way - to set boundary, extreme, conditions - is it possible, in the conditions of artisanal production, without access to cheap energy and cheap, energy-saving technologies, to ensure REPRODUCTION of metal weapons in SCALE quantities.

                  A common misconception. You know how conveyor creator G. Ford said: "We can make a car of any color only if it is black." And this is connected, in fact, with the specifics of the conveyor industry. production. Itself at one time worked in closed production, and with pens everything was done perfectly, much better than on the conveyor in quality ... the loss was in the cost of production and the requirements for the qualification of workers, well, the number of workers, of course, was greater.
              2. abrakadabre
                abrakadabre 27 October 2015 08: 44 New
                +2
                I would add: for pluralism of opinions, provided that the opponent has serious arguments. It’s not that one half-life is seriously working, and his opponent has read a couple of tabloids and imagines himself an expert smarter than the first
              3. kalibr
                27 October 2015 11: 24 New
                0
                Quote: merlin
                The winners will make their people - the MOST-MOST: the most ancient, the most cultural, the most intelligent ... and what we see is the most ancient - the Egyptians (from whom nothing is left) ... culture, take China and Tibet, but there this cultures - even eat with a spoon, but China is not at all in business here ... etc. etc. Then the question is: Why all this? Who needs? And there is no purpose ...

                Wonderful thought! Just take it and insert it into scientific work - is it possible?
                1. marline
                  marline 27 October 2015 11: 51 New
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Wonderful thought! Just take it and insert it into scientific work - is it possible?

                  Sure. For your wonderful articles, as much as you want ... and I hold the view that knowledge, ideas, thoughts - like a fire, from replication do not go out, but only flare up more.
                  1. brn521
                    brn521 27 October 2015 14: 27 New
                    +1
                    Quote: merlin
                    thoughts - like a fire, from replication do not go out, but only flare up more strongly.

                    However, private property plays an important role in official historical science. If you want to get acquainted with the monograph - pay. If you want to use materials - ask for permission. The same goes for museums and storerooms. It’s even just taking pictures - either for money or not at all. Business.
                    1. marline
                      marline 27 October 2015 21: 23 New
                      +1
                      Quote: brn521
                      However, private property plays an important role in official historical science.

                      So what to do? Historians also want to eat and need money for research. But we publish our posts completely free of charge and this is good
                      1. brn521
                        brn521 28 October 2015 11: 23 New
                        +1
                        Quote: merlin
                        So what to do? Historians also want to eat and need money for research

                        Naturally. But as a result of the idea of ​​free replication of thoughts, they do not find reliable reinforcement. More precisely, the thoughts that are most easily done are replicated. Take for example all sorts of new historians / chronologists. They fit perfectly into the Western concept of "give people what they want." People are cramped and bored with school history. And they are happy to amuse their FAC, suddenly discovering that they are much better historians than the short-sighted, but cunning professors and academics. At the same time, these new historians are not at all worried about the fact that their works are pirated replicated, and the materials are used without permission - because this is a sign of success.
                      2. marline
                        marline 28 October 2015 12: 09 New
                        +1
                        Quote: brn521
                        ... More precisely, thoughts are replicated by those with which it is easiest to do. Take for example all sorts of new historians / chronologists. They fit perfectly into the western concept of "give people what they want"

                        Don’t tell me ... such a “story” at a minimum of costs brings tangible benefits to the authors ... And at school, while they still teach for free, and on the Internet you can, for now, also find books and photos of archaeological finds for free.
            2. brn521
              brn521 27 October 2015 14: 04 New
              +2
              Quote: merlin
              we all want to believe in a fairy tale, for example, ABOUT GREAT AND GREAT ANCIENT RUSSIA ...

              I don’t. If the state died, then it was a bad state.
            3. Aljavad
              Aljavad 28 October 2015 06: 09 New
              +1
              idols of easter island


              And here Heyerdahl put all the points. The islanders dragged them to him and lifted him. They even wanted to cut it down, but they overstrained it - they say we don’t have the skill, all hands were beaten off. But the circuit was cut down. According to old technologies.
          3. kalibr
            27 October 2015 11: 21 New
            0
            Why a couple of three? There is a wonderful study of T. Mommsen ... there names - in bulk!
        2. Aljavad
          Aljavad 28 October 2015 06: 05 New
          +1
          an empire is not built without concern for the heir ... but Alexander.


          According to the memoirs of contemporaries, young Alexander cried sobbing that now, another day had lived, but he had not accomplished anything great.

          Later he was awakened with the phrase "Wake up, great things await us!"

          What is not an idea? Similar people are indifferent to dough. They have other toys.
          1. marline
            marline 28 October 2015 08: 25 New
            0
            Quote: Aljavad
            According to the memoirs of contemporaries, young Alexander cried sobbing that now, another day had lived, but he had not accomplished anything great.
            Later he was awakened with the phrase "Wake up, great things await us!"
            What is not an idea? Similar people are indifferent to dough. They have other toys.

            There are many interesting memories about young Alexander. Of course, Alexander wanted to be like the great heroes of antiquity: Hercules, Achilles, and at least the same Cyrus and Xenophon ... The thirst for glory - smacks of vanity that there is a mortal sin, it would be better if he killed people because of the dough .. Although you may be right.
  15. abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 27 October 2015 07: 48 New
    +1
    For starters, they would have wondered how the Vikings warriors actually looked.
    Horns, allegedly wearing Viking helmets, are about one and a half hundred years old. And this nonsense was not invented by a historian or even a person who was not close to history.
    Judging by your thoughts set forth here, you represent the Vikings from Valeggio’s paintings: such brutal naked rolls in a fur loincloth, a horned helmet and an al-ax sword with 2-3 pounds in weight; and their women in armored swimsuits on their naked bodies. smile
    And do not care that in Scandinavia it is cold and damp.
    In fact, the Viking (for the 8-10th century) in battle looked like the attached picture. Throw out the rest of the horned and other paraphernalia of supposedly Vikings from cartoons and movies, to the trash.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  16. Aljavad
    Aljavad 28 October 2015 04: 40 New
    +1
    that these horned helmets are just Vikings


    Horned helmets - invented by Wagner's directors at the end of the 19th century!
    According to another version - students at the carnival.

    And shardans - wore. In Egypt - reliefs, in Sardinia - sculptures. And in Scandinavia - nothing.
  • Stilet
    Stilet 27 October 2015 00: 03 New
    +3
    There is little information about the peoples of the sea and all in general. Thank you for the article. Only the persistent idea of ​​an “alternative” view of the periods of the history of other commentators is terrifying. How many different things are in people's heads ... Directly militant neo-historians wassat ! If the author allows .... with all modesty I want to draw your attention to the reconstruction of Katsikis Dimitrios cuirass. Perhaps I’m deeply mistaken, but the abundance of bronze or copper at that time, plus the lining of armor plus the shoulders .. The image of the Shardan Warriors from the Medinet Abu temple is still a different type of armor and there is a belt there. It seems to me, and this is purely my opinion that the armor was linen (more accessible, lightweight and not as hot as the skin). Just for comparison - in later centuries, the Greek hoplites along with bronze wore linen armor, which was not inferior to bronze in protective properties. Thanks again for the article.
    1. Glot
      Glot 27 October 2015 06: 30 New
      +3
      Only the persistent idea of ​​an “alternative” view of the periods of the history of other commentators is terrifying. How many different things are in people's heads ... Directly militant neo-historians!


      Yes, this is a big problem however. As you can see, there are not one or two, but more.
      In their heads - porridge, multiplied by exorbitantly hyped conceit, so they yell that everyone and everyone lies, giving stupid "evidence" of their innocence.
      This problem must be fought. Since this is some kind of horror.
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 27 October 2015 08: 51 New
        +2
        This problem must be fought. Since this is some kind of horror.
        For the sake of this, we are here and post answers to all this nonsense. If you don’t convince your opponent. so at least we will direct outside readers into the mainstream of self-development, rather than rubbing our brains.
        And not for the sake of pluses and drovers.
        1. Glot
          Glot 27 October 2015 10: 45 New
          +1
          For the sake of this, we are here and post answers to all this nonsense. If you don’t convince your opponent. so at least we will direct outside readers into the mainstream of self-development, rather than rubbing our brains.
          And not for the sake of pluses and drovers.


          I agree. drinks
          So we will continue, as one acquaintance says, to give to the ignoramuses and from charlatans.
      2. Aljavad
        Aljavad 28 October 2015 06: 18 New
        0
        In my head is porridge


        An American journalist at the similar words of Putin about Odam-offended! wassat
    2. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 27 October 2015 08: 50 New
      +2
      Flax armor was inferior in protective properties. But at a price, especially for arming a large army of the same Philip of Macedon or armies of diadochi - they won radically.
    3. kalibr
      27 October 2015 11: 32 New
      +1
      Correctly noticed! But ... Dimitrios just has a reconstruction with just one shoulder strap. It's just ... oh ... and he and I choose what is prettier. But this does not mean mass character, of course. But could this be? It could! Is there any armor from Dendra? There is!
      And so you think correctly. Although ... Do you know what copper mines were in Cyprus? Preserved until our time! KAMAZ trucks spiral and carry ore. "Developed over the Millennia!" - told me the guide. Is it so worked out?
      What happened in Mycenaean time? The whole island was covered with dense forests! And where are they? ALL burned coal, smelt copper! So there was enough copper. And the ships that drove her! It will be about this stuff!
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 10 November 2015 10: 30 New
        0
        Do you know what copper mines were in Cyprus?
        Copper in the Mediterranean was its own. From far away, mainly tin for bronze was imported.
        And the unfading trace of the copper mines of Cyprus has been preserved forever in the very name of copper, used since those ancient times - cuprum. Just from the name of the island where it was mined.
        Just like iron - ferum, from the island of Fera with the best at that time mines of this metal.
  • Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin 22 August 2018 01: 27 New
    0
    Quote: Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
    Phrygian with "swords of Jaffa." Medinet Habu
    Only not the Phrygians, but the "Lab" - the Libyans, who by the way had a very Caucasoid origin in those days.