Military Review

The Trojan War and the "peoples of the sea." “English historians report ...” (part nine)

146
The interest shown by VO readers to the topic of the Trojan War is very significant. Obviously, studying it in the fifth grade of a comprehensive school with very little children, they ... well, they don’t even bear much for themselves from the text of the poem in a prosaic retelling, let alone verses. Yes, and on the university bench ... Well, what do they say about those legendary events? I know that nothing particularly interesting. And about the Bronze Age itself, what is known? That everything was of bronze: and tools, and jewelry! And that's it! As a result, people who imagine themselves to be versed in at least something write the following: “these swords were mostly (after all,“ mostly ”added, well, how ... - V.O.) were for burial, because military use was difficult due to the fragility of swords, and the fragility of the lack of tin and arsenic content ... ". Alas, and tin at that time was, and arsenic bronzes (to tin) were not inferior to them in strength!


The Trojan War and the "peoples of the sea." “English historians report ...” (part nine)

"Peoples of the Sea" during the sea battle with the Egyptians. Relief on the wall in the temple at Medinet Abu. Drawing

It is surprising that all these perplexities are easily resolved by self-education. In Soviet times, it was necessary to go to the library or wait a month for an ordered book in the IBA. Now a couple of buttons pressed and ... read! However, even then the books answering all these questions were, and they gave answers exhaustive. Here, for example, the book of E.N. Ferrous "Metal - man - time" (M .: Publishing House "Science", 1972 g.). Moreover, this man knew about what he was writing, not by hearsay, since he was in charge of the laboratory of spectral analysis of the Institute of Archeology of the Russian Academy of Sciences. The book is popular so that it is understandable even for the most mediocre mind, and his more serious monographs are called: “History the most ancient metallurgy of Eastern Europe "(1966) and" The most ancient metallurgy of the Urals and Volga region "(1970). And this is available to Russians today and they have not lost their meaning, although there are several new discoveries ... only confirming everything that he wrote then!


"Peoples of the Sea" during the sea battle with the Egyptians. Relief on the wall in the temple at Medinet Abu. Original.

At a later time, that is, already in our days, the excellent monograph by A.I. Soloviev, an employee of the Institute of Archeology and Ethnography of the Siberian Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences, author of more than 50 scientific articles and eight monographs, “Weapon and armor. Siberian weapons: from the Stone Age to the Middle Ages "with drawings by the artist MA Lobyreva (Novosibirsk, publishing house INFOLIO-press, 2003).

Well, why is there no Russian studies of the same topic, but the Trojan War is obvious: we are poor and cannot afford to go where we should and, accordingly, study what we want. David Nicole, for example, suggested that I should somehow write about the Genoese fortresses in the Black Sea region. All I had to do was to drive them all and describe how they look now, and he would give their description in terms of retrospective, according to Western sources. Enough for me on Sudak and Kafu, and all. And then in different years, so what kind of book can we talk about? And in order to write a book about the Trojan War, one should visit Gissarlik, Mycenae, Athens, Crete, and Cyprus.


Cut off the penises of the enemies of Egypt. Relief on the wall in the temple at Medinet Abu.

I was in Cyprus, but when it comes to all other objects, I don’t even guess. And you need an artist to be always at hand and know how to draw, and did not dissuade with the fact that "I see this way." And I don't have such people in Penza! There is an art school, but there are no artists - I checked it! That is, the landscapes they write, but the buckles on the belts draw already than the belt itself, and how can you trust to paint the same “Osprey” ?! By the way, I proposed to write a book on this topic to one of our substantial publishers. And the editor replied that he personally would have read it with pleasure, but ... “the book will be expensive, the topic is narrow and who will buy such a book from us?” We have all the poor, and those who are rich in such books do not read! "That's it! Today the reader votes for the book ruble!


Another image from the ancient Egyptian relief. The sword hilt, characteristic for types C and CII, with the blade “horns” drawn back, draws attention.

Therefore, turning to the topic of the Trojan War and the "peoples of the sea", I will have to rely, first of all, on the work of such English-speaking historians as Raffaele D'Amato and Andrea Salimbeti. Moreover, Dr. Raffaele D'Amato is a famous Turin historian who collaborated with the University of Athens and received his second doctoral degree in Roman military archeology. He currently works as a deputy head of the laboratory of the Danube Provinces at the University of Ferrara. Well, Andrea Salimbeti has long been engaged in precisely the Trojan War. The illustrator of their books, Giuseppe Rava, who, as required by the rules of the Osprey Publishers, presented a detailed description of the sources from which this or that detail was taken, plus a photo of each such detail!


And this is how the appearance of the warriors of the “sea nations” imagines Giuseppe Rava. As you can see, every little thing is tied to their images on the wall in the temple in Medinet-Abu. Well, khopesh in the hands of a warrior could well have been a trophy.

And here are their books: “Ealy Aegean Warriors 5000 - 1450 BC” (Early Achaean Warriors 5000 - 1450 years BC), “Bronze Age Greek Warrior 1600 - 1100 BS” (Greek Warriors of the Bronze Age 1600 - 1100) BC, Sea Peoples of the Bronze Age Mediterranean from 1400BC - 1000 BS (“Bronze Age Sea People in the Mediterranean from 1400 to 1000 BC”). All of these books belong to different series, but any of them can be ordered, including in the electronic version, for about £ 10.


The same goes for their hats. Original.

Well, now let us turn to what is known today more or less accurately. So: “the peoples of the sea” is a whole group of Mediterranean peoples, which as a result of the “Bronze Age catastrophe” (eruption of the Santorini volcano, drought, etc.), in the XIII century BC. e., approached the borders of the Egyptian New Kingdom and the Hittite state from the Aegean Sea (Balkans and Asia Minor). Their names are known: sherdan, thirsena, tursha, Philistines and chakkal, danunas, Phrygians, shakalesha, Akayvasha (Achaeans), Garamanty, bows, tevkra.


Hieroglyphic inscription denoting "the peoples of the sea"

That is, it was so that a huge mass of tribes, including peoples who spoke different dialects of the Greek language (Dorian and West Greek dialects close to Dorian), as well as people of non-Greek origin, who lived in the same places, left their long-occupied places and moved south . There were rich areas in Central Greece and the Peloponnese, and the newcomers subjected them to destruction. The famous Pilos Palace was lost in the fires of the fires, and the place he stood for was forgotten for a long time. The citadels of Mycenae and Tiryns were not captured, but the economy of the Mycenaean states suffered irreparable damage. There was a rapid decline of crafts and trade just in areas most affected by the invasion ... Thus, at the turn of the XIII - XII centuries BC, the ancient civilization of the Mycenaean Greece suffered a terrible blow from which it had not recovered.


Sea battle of the Egyptians with the "nations of the sea." Artist J. Rava.

A number of modern historians believe that the beginning of the migration of the "peoples of the sea" to the south was caused by the Trojan War - or rather, its end, destructively affecting not only the defeated civilization of the western coast of Asia Minor, but also on the economy of the Achaean winners. That is, the migration process itself in this region began even before the invasion of the Dorians for one or two centuries!


Achaean leaders at the walls of the fortress wall of Troy. They still do not know what awaits their civilization after victory! Artist J. Rava.

Interestingly, some of the "sea peoples" were known to the Egyptians long before their invasion of Egypt. So, at the beginning of the XIV century. in the Amarna documents you can find a reference to the people living next to the Libyans, and most likely they were Phrygians. Sherdans from Phenicia were also known to the Egyptians, and from the middle of the XV and in the XIV century. BC er Danish and bows were added to them. The same Danyans are also mentioned in the inscription of Amenhotep III from Kom-el-Getan, as well as the names of the cities that belonged to them (presumptive decoding): Mycenae, Thebes, Messena, Navplion, Kiefer, Eleya, Amikly.


Something like this could look like the warriors of the "sea peoples" 1150 BC. Artist J. Rava.

In the Battle of Kadesh around 1274 BC. er in the composition of the Egyptian troops fought the sherdans, and among the allies of the Hittite king were bows and danays. The stele of Pharaoh Merneptah is known, the images on which are associated with the first invasion of "sea nations" in Egypt ca. 1208 BC er (in the fifth year of the reign of Pharaoh), which the Egyptians repulsed, defeating the newcomers from the city of Perira, in the area of ​​the so-called Nath lake.


Reconstruction of the ship "peoples of the sea."

(ending should)
Author:
Articles from this series:
Weapons and armor of soldiers of the Trojan War. Swords and daggers (part one)
Armor of the Trojan War (part two)
Armor warriors of the Trojan War. Helmets (part three)
http://topwar.ru/83250-schity-troyanskoy-voyny-chast-chetvertaya.html
Weapons of the Trojan War. Spears (part five)
Weapons of the Trojan War. Bow and Arrows (part six)
The Trojan War and its reconstruction (seventh part) - ending
Trojan War: ships and chariots
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  1. Glot
    Glot 23 October 2015 06: 53 New
    +4
    Now the "peoples of doubt" will catch up and rush. laughing
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 08: 19 New
      +8
      Yes ... I myself am always against like-mindedness. I even published an article here about how dangerous it is and what it leads to from a cultural point of view. But ... differences of opinion are also different. It is necessary, as they say, to know when to stop. However, I also know where such wild delights and obscurantism come from. Over the years of the USSR, our historians have in many ways compromised themselves with excessive political judgments, their readiness to bring Marxism-Leninism under any fact and much more. It was almost unthinkable for a non-communist to get a permit to work in the special security department of Leninka. Newspapers ... did not lie at all at every step. Here is the "credit of confidence" and dried up. And "smart people" use this to their advantage. From here the legs and ears grow.
      1. Glot
        Glot 23 October 2015 09: 01 New
        +2
        But ... the difference of opinion is also different. It is necessary, as they say, to know the measure.


        There is no measure because stubborn obstinacy multiplied by complete ignorance of what they are trying to talk about. That's ... request
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      3. Aljavad
        Aljavad 24 October 2015 02: 17 New
        0
        Over the years of the USSR, our historians have largely compromised themselves by the excessive politicization of their judgments, their willingness to bring Marxism-Leninism to any fact, and there is much more.


        Continuation of the dispute between "physicists and lyricists". The "lyricists" (philologists, linguists, historians) meant thieves from "decent families" who were waiting for clean and calm office work and a guaranteed career. And the "physicists" are the guys from the plow, all with their own mind, they, like geologists, are called "the foggy distance." And they can sing, play, and write songs as well as lyricists! And to understand the history - one spit. Right now, they will take the integral and the logarithm. But those historians of SNIP do not know! .... etc.
        Here are the echoes and wafting.

        In the XNUMXth century, there were encyclopedists. In the XIX - Bazarov could no longer sacrifice "humanitarianism" for the sake of the "natural cycle". Now the specialization is off the charts. But everyone wants to see himself as a "multilaterally developed person"!
        Well them! Do not take their chatter to heart! Very good (tasty) articles. I look forward to the turbines.
        1. kalibr
          24 October 2015 13: 38 New
          +1
          Ready! Do not worry, waiting for the queue. Together with one young historian, we looked through everything that was on them, including the data of metallographic expertise.
    2. kumaxa
      kumaxa 23 October 2015 08: 21 New
      +2
      floods will catch up! But the problem is interesting Pts !!
    3. War and Peace
      War and Peace 23 October 2015 12: 20 New
      0
      "Egyptian bas-reliefs are well-finished stone slabs with images made with copper and bronze tools". This is what the traditional story of the stone art of the ancient Egyptians tells us.
      Egyptian bas-reliefs were made on stone, including granite. Images are depressed and convex. The depth of cut for depressed images exceeds the capabilities of even today's modern technologies, because the image is applied in many cases AT A RIGHT ANGLE, and this CANNOT be done with modern tools, let alone primitive "ancient Egyptian" ones. Well, the CONVEX IMAGE generally surpasses any imagination, how is it done with the help of copper teeth? but it is impossible to do this with copper chisels. On the face of the TI crisis, this science is not able to answer neither old questions nor current ones.
      The answer, and for some time, may be the CONCRETE VERSION of the pyramids, there are some EXPERIENCED samples of artificial stone made by the COLD METHOD, but as far as I know, the most promising samples made according to the prescription of the chemist Davydovich cannot compete with the samples of ancient masters.
      Apparently there was some kind of civilization whose capabilities were superior to ours, but TI stubbornly does not want to notice these facts, but is trying to explain the processing of stone with primitive tools ...
      1. brn521
        brn521 23 October 2015 13: 41 New
        -1
        Quote: War and Peace
        The answer and then for some time may be a concrete version of the pyramids,

        There are full blocks, there are obvious signs of the same plaster. I think that the blocks were cut down, and the resulting crushed material was allowed to fit the blocks and finish. If the inside and outside of the blocks fit well, then in the inner layers, exposed in the course of long-standing attempts to break-open, it seems like there are rather big gaps between the blocks.
        If granite blocks are cut down with diorite balls, then there will be a lot of crushed material, but not enough for large-scale castings. With marble, of course, it’s easier, but again the amount of grinding work is excessive. Take the same Roman concrete. The source material is not crushed into powder, but burned in the form of gravel. The lime obtained after the quenching is diluted with a filler - stones or gravel. The only exceptions were pools and decorative elements. Chipped pumice was added even to light ceilings. What for? They made the construction easier and saved material - it was not easy work.
        So I'm a supporter of the combined version.
        1. kalibr
          23 October 2015 14: 18 New
          0
          Most importantly, all their tools are found, images are found, how they are used and what else they need. When two granite sphinxes were brought to St. Petersburg in 1829, one was struck, beaten and ... all repaired, punctured and beaten. Of course, we did not work with copper chisels. But the technology of those times did not exceed ours ... And among the 104 pyramids there is a mass of those where stone was used, even inside, as can be seen, since they are unfinished or collapsed. And where is the concrete?
          1. War and Peace
            War and Peace 23 October 2015 15: 21 New
            -1
            this is something ...
            1. War and Peace
              War and Peace 23 October 2015 15: 23 New
              -1
              and this is the "ancient stouzhenge"
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          2. brn521
            brn521 23 October 2015 16: 26 New
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            And where is the concrete?

            In the Fomenko film on the pyramids, one can observe artifacts quite characteristic of the concrete theory. And in the film Sklyarov - for the stone. There is no evidence of fraud / video editing. Where does the average layman make a completely natural conclusion - in the object, i.e. in the pyramids, there is one and the other.
            Quote: kalibr
            Most importantly, all their tools are found, images are found, how they use them and what else is needed

            On the ship topic too. It is proved that a tree can be processed, that an oar can be rowed, that a boat can be sailed even in the middle of the ocean. There are ancient images. And what else is needed? They are messing around, reconstructing, spending time and money :).
            Quote: kalibr
            When two granite sphinxes were brought

            Not that. It's not about technology, but about specific films. We need a source in which they understand.
            1. Glot
              Glot 23 October 2015 18: 51 New
              +1
              In the Fomenko film on the pyramids, one can observe artifacts quite characteristic of the concrete theory. And in the film Sklyarov - for the stone.


              Two dreamers. One himself does not know what he is proving, then he squeezes time periods, then dumps countries, peoples, personalities, etc. into one heap, the second rushes about with the ideas of paleocontacts. laughing
              Study the topic not from films, but from scientific papers.
              You will find explanations there.
              1. brn521
                brn521 23 October 2015 20: 24 New
                -1
                Quote: Glot
                Study the topic not from films, but from scientific papers.

                A film demonstrating the studied sample is also a scientific work. And the most useful and intuitive. Have you ever seen articles 90-100% consisting of photographs and images? Who and for what reason is collecting data for me on the drum. If the methodology is followed, the study is considered correctly completed, no matter who and for what purpose it was conducted. So it is with movies. They painted something there, did they insert fake frames into the video sequence? If not, then on the drum, who and for what reason made these shots, doctor ist. Sciences, journalist or amateur, trying to prove it is not clear what. The main thing is that these are objects directly related to the pyramids.
                Quote: Glot
                One himself does not know what proves

                But he gave history a chance as a science to rehabilitate at least a little. A lot of people, having decided to understand the issue, found that the story can also be interesting.
                Quote: Glot
                the second is worn with paleocontact ideas.

                Come on, the postulation of the properties of matter to self-organization and development is also not very rational. Who determined the step of this spontaneous self-organization? What did this matter begin to begin with atoms, molecules and viruses? Why not start right away with God? For example, there are chemical elements that are not found in nature in principle and are synthesized by man in special conditions. Humanity may well be synthesized, and myths and religions have a real justification. So let him search, if only he would do it qualitatively.
                1. Glot
                  Glot 23 October 2015 21: 25 New
                  +3
                  A film demonstrating the studied sample is also a scientific work. And the most useful and intuitive. Have you ever seen articles 90-100% consisting of photographs and images? Who and for what reason is collecting data for me on the drum. If the methodology is followed, the study is considered correctly completed, no matter who and for what purpose it was conducted. So it is with movies. They painted something there, did they insert fake frames into the video sequence? If not, then on the drum, who and for what reason made these shots, doctor ist. Sciences, journalist or amateur, trying to prove it is not clear what. The main thing is that these are objects directly related to the pyramids.


                  Any film is primarily an associative video sequence. You can show there the same thing, with any advantageous to those who take positions. And the text you need to run for greater persuasiveness.
                  And there is a film about history filmed by individuals very far from this SCIENCE, is it worth trusting this film? And who makes these films, I already wrote above.
                  Plus, watching a movie you need to understand the topic that it covers. And if someone who has not read a single book is looking at everything, his pipe to MOSH. They cram stupid things there, then you won’t get rid of them.

                  But he gave history a chance as a science to rehabilitate at least a little. A lot of people, having decided to understand the issue, found that the story can also be interesting.


                  And from what is science rehabilitated?
                  He put a bunch of stupid things into weak heads, and people live with these stupid things.
                  Here this "War and Peace" runs on topics, read what it writes. At least in this thread.
                  Nonsense !!
                  And this is Fomenko and others like him are guilty.
                  And he could have been a man ... and so ... some kind of abyrvalg. laughing

                  Humanity may well be synthesized, and myths and religions have a real justification. So let him search, if only he would do it qualitatively.


                  Can. Maybe we are someone's experiment on this planet. Maybe something else, but there is not a single documentary confirmation of contact with extraterrestrial civilizations. No one ! All based on rumors. So many thousands of years of history and the "creators" did not seem to us. And so I agree, it can be anything. I completely admit it. But, there is no confirmation of these versions. request
              2. FM-78
                FM-78 23 October 2015 23: 06 New
                +1
                Look, 2 mm cuts in granite, I saw it.
            2. Aljavad
              Aljavad 24 October 2015 02: 25 New
              +2
              In the Fomenko film on the pyramids, one can observe artifacts quite characteristic of the concrete theory. And in the film Sklyarov - for the stone. There is no evidence of fraud / video editing. Where does the average layman make a completely natural conclusion - in the object, i.e. in the pyramids, there is one and the other.


              Do not drink from dirty dishes! Refer to the origins. Those. - to the primary sources. Finally, go to Egypt and make YOUR idea of ​​the pyramids.

              Fomenko is a commercial project.
      2. Sweles
        Sweles 23 October 2015 20: 16 New
        0
        Quote: War and Peace
        Apparently there was some kind of civilization whose capabilities were superior to ours, but TI stubbornly does not want to notice these facts, but is trying to explain the processing of stone with primitive tools ...


        I watched some kind of foreign film on history, and so they showed how it is possible to cut granite and diarite with a copper saw with an image, but the performance was frankly low or even insignificant. The use of copper saws according to TI seems problematic. But on Sklyarov’s travels, he took the same diaritic cobblestone and began to peck the granite — the efficiency is the same as with copper saws. It seems necessary to look for new explanations for the stone processing of those times ...
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 07 New
          +2
          he took the same diaritic cobblestone and began to hammer the granite - the efficiency is the same as with copper saws.
          People say about this: give a fool xp ... n glass, he will break it and cut himself.
          The fact that his hands, sorry, grow from one place, does not mean that this is observed before before all the others.
          For example, if by this Fomenko-Sklyarov is given a baclum and a knife in their hands, they will not be able to cut an ordinary spoon. Or they can’t weave bast shoes from the provided material. A primitive (according to similar revolutions) peasant 100-200 years ago easily and quickly. And regularly: the lifespan of a wooden spoon is a few weeks, bast shoes - a week. For he can.
          But what is there, it is unlikely that Fomenko knows how to wind up footcloths even in half a day, and any "primitive" guy from a village or working-class suburbs who served in the army will do it in 20-30 seconds.
    4. The comment was deleted.
  2. kumaxa
    kumaxa 23 October 2015 07: 05 New
    +7
    author ++++ w in turnips. well done the whole series of articles about the Trojan war read. interesting . I still don’t understand .hu from hu. who were they all ??? Now it is completely clear that the peoples living in the described regions. They have no relation to the representatives of these races and societies. Now, if -b the article-analysis ending the cycle. who are they. their origin and self-identification of these ethnic groups ???? after all, to this day it is not clear who the Hittites are. The peoples of the sea who belonged to the conglomerate of tribes ??. Dorians or pre-Aryans ?? Achaean tribal union who are they ??? ammunition and weapons are very interesting! but more interesting. the one who used it all. so to speak, where he was born and baptized! as they say. that's where the dog is buried! with respect !
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 07: 39 New
      +2
      Thanks for ++++. But I have to disappoint you. I do not know the answers to your questions. And the authors of the above books do not have them. I have a very narrow specialization (which is probably why the articles are good and come out-ha-ha!) - English-language historiography. That is, who, what, what he writes about, to which historical schools he belongs. We do not even know the exact name of these peoples among the Egyptians. They didn't write vowels. In Wikipedia, all their names are given from the consonants with reference to one or another nation by indirect - see below Aron Zaavi, signs. You can find the same in the literature mentioned in the article. A number of materials are now being prepared on the European-Siberian cultures of the Bronze Age. Look there what archaeologists have dug up ... And the language, the ethnic group - "the pieces of iron are silent."
      1. kumaxa
        kumaxa 23 October 2015 07: 58 New
        +1
        nuuu! {humor} you need to call the Ministry of Internal Affairs forensic service! I still wonder who they were. There is a version of the great migration of peoples. just at this we describe the line. I remember there are Soviet editions of the works of historians dealing with this topic! but alas, I don’t remember anything. I read something somewhere! Homer and Geradot do not count. here is identity trick. they considered themselves Hellenes. and we will bring them to the ancient Greeks. ??
        1. Glot
          Glot 23 October 2015 08: 51 New
          0
          Homer and Geradot do not count. here is identity trick. they considered themselves Hellenes. and we will bring them to the ancient Greeks. ??


          So everything is simple, the Greeks and Greeks are one and the same. In general, the Greeks called the Greeks the Greeks, and from there it actually went, but it remained. But the Greeks themselves called themselves the Greeks, and Greece - Hellas.
          Well-known fact. No questions asked.
          1. War and Peace
            War and Peace 23 October 2015 17: 29 New
            -7
            Quote: Glot
            Homer and Geradot do not count. here is identity trick. they considered themselves Hellenes. and we will bring them to the ancient Greeks. ??


            So everything is simple, the Greeks and Greeks are one and the same. In general, the Greeks called the Greeks the Greeks, and from there it actually went, but it remained. But the Greeks themselves called themselves the Greeks, and Greece - Hellas.
            Well-known fact. No questions asked.


            people like you really never have questions, because you look at the world with your eyes closed.
            Did Greece call Greece the Latins? Somehow it's not in Latin.
            GREECE is GREECE i.e. country of mountains or even Highlanders. Those. in Russian.
            HELLA-ALLA-ALLAH-DIVINE, but most likely this name was not appropriated to the mountainous country, except for the invented past, Greece has nothing heroic in the PRESENT or in the foreseeable past. Greeks are the same synthesized people as modern Turks or Ukrainians ...
            1. Glot
              Glot 23 October 2015 19: 04 New
              +3
              ......... GREECE is GREECE i.e. country of mountains or even Highlanders. Those. in Russian.
              HELLA-ALLA-ALLAH-DIVINE ...............


              How much stupidity can you carry?
              Well, you don’t know anything, sit quietly, be silent, read more gaining knowledge. But no, not sitting. Nonsense writes from topic to topic candid.
              It is not even disputed that the Greeks, Greece came into circulation from Latin.
              What is GORECIA and the Highlanders ?!
              Learn the story.
              Hellas and Greeks have nothing to do with ALLA and especially ALLAH.
              Quite a tree !!!
              Play some more words, as in that topic about "S-AMURAev - Amur Cossacks". laughing
              You yourself surrender to me - a synthesized being. laughing
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                  1. War and Peace
                    War and Peace 23 October 2015 21: 34 New
                    -4
                    Quote: Glot
                    In any science, discovery is a dead end. In issued. laughing laughing
                    A dead end, this is when a lot of people like you become. Then yes, deadlock and degeneration for the nation. But thank gods like you a little. And all the zoos.


                    and here I didn’t understand anything, a dead end is you when you yourself have nothing, and even don’t understand, as a result, a full swallow ...
            2. marline
              marline 25 October 2015 20: 51 New
              +1
              Quote: war and peace
              GREECE is GREECE i.e. country of mountains or even Highlanders. Those. in Russian.
              HELLA-ALLA-ALLAH-DIVINE ...

              I think I understood what etymology you were talking about ...
              Here you are, just recently, they said that the Cossack, then following your logic, then what happens:
              KAZAK - KOZAK = GOAT + AK, what is it ... You are a machine gunner riding a mountain goat??? Original-s ... laughing
              1. abrakadabre
                abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 09 New
                0
                Rather, a goat with a gun.
        2. Aljavad
          Aljavad 24 October 2015 02: 47 New
          0
          they considered themselves Hellenes. and we will bring them to the ancient Greeks. ??


          Each nation has many names. 1. Self-name. for the majority it means, as a rule, "people" or "true people". 2,3,4,5 .... Names given by neighbors - near and far.

          But in life it’s still more complicated.
    2. timyr
      timyr 23 October 2015 08: 16 New
      +1
      Honor Anpilogov, in LJ he has a cycle of catastrophe of the Bronze Age. There's just about the collapse of the first global project.
      1. brn521
        brn521 23 October 2015 17: 11 New
        0
        Quote: timyr
        Honor Anpilogov, he has a Bronze Age catastrophe cycle

        Ah, so I once read it. http://alex-anpilogov.livejournal.com/51561.html Then it’s probably easier here, probably - all the articles on the topic are combined into one. http://voprosik.net/globalizaciya-i-krizis-bronzovogo-veka/ I wrote well, it fits logically and for a long time in my head. It looks like the future belongs to those authors who have a high rating in search engines. It’s easier for them to grab the grant, and publish and sell the book in the right amount. Moreover, it is not even necessary to be a historian, it is enough to have a broad outlook and interest the reader.
        1. Aljavad
          Aljavad 24 October 2015 02: 51 New
          +1
          Moreover, it is not even necessary to be a historian, it is enough to have a broad outlook and interest the reader.


          It used to be called "clickflyer". Himself "no boom-boom", but well trained to write. belay
          1. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 13 New
            0
            In a newer time, even a collective character appeared on this occasion. Very accurately characterizes these ...
      2. The comment was deleted.
    3. Glot
      Glot 23 October 2015 08: 54 New
      +3
      Dorians or pre-Aryans ??


      Do not start playing words.
      Dorians, and no "pre-Aryans".
      And then recently one started playing, assuring that the Japanese samurai are "Cossacks of S-AMUR". laughing
      1. kumaxa
        kumaxa 24 October 2015 19: 17 New
        0
        this is not funny! THIS was a question for the author of the article on the problem of the origin of the ethnic group! And not a pun ..
    4. Aljavad
      Aljavad 24 October 2015 02: 41 New
      +1
      to this day it is not clear who the Hittites are.

      ??
      Everything seems to be clear - the Aryans. (I.e., Indo-Europeans). Roughly speaking, the second cousins ​​are great-great-grandfathers of the Kurds. laughing

      Dorians or pre-Aryans ?? Achaean tribal union who are they ???


      Both those and others are "great-Hellenes". Wild Greek-speaking tribes. Obviously NOT pre-Aryans. The pre-Aryans lived several thousand years earlier. And nobody knows exactly where. "In the Circumpontic Region". Either in Armenia, or in Moldova ...

      Threat. Specialists will spit on me, express a mountain of objections. But they themselves will refrain from saying anything definite. That is science.
      1. kumaxa
        kumaxa 24 October 2015 19: 25 New
        +1
        Dear, here it’s not appropriate to smack. the author tells in an article about peoples using certain weapons and armor. but does not in any way reveal the roots of the origin of either Achaeans or Trojans; there is simply the fact of the existence of ethnic groups and the fact of military confrontation. I'm wondering who they are and where they came from to Europe.
        1. Turkir
          Turkir 24 October 2015 19: 31 New
          0
          I'm wondering who they are and where they came from to Europe.

          I am also interested in learning about this, but the data of historical science on this topic are very contradictory.
  3. Aaron Zawi
    Aaron Zawi 23 October 2015 07: 13 New
    +5
    Great article. Received a rare pleasure. By the way, Ancient Judea also survived the invasion of the "Sea Peoples". They seized the coast from Ashdod to Gaza and created five city-states. The Jews called them "plishtim" - "invaders". In Russian it was transformed into "Philistines". The emperor of Rome Andrian almost a thousand years later, after the suppression of the Bar-Kokhba uprising, in order to erase the memory of the rebellious people, renamed Judea to Palestine.
    1. kumaxa
      kumaxa 23 October 2015 08: 12 New
      +5
      oh li !!! Palestine ent one and Jude ent another! Sales in the bible write about two kingdoms! and what are your historians ??? !!! read spears about shields breaking with such frenzy gloom. I read in my opinion I sewed a geographic article by your archaeologist. about King David to be biblical. so he adheres to the version that in the described times Irshalaim was a kibbutz and david was a local leader. and he went as they said -b in the 90s to the arrow. and gave the guy the nickname Goliaff in the eye. and more to that village no one in the district climbed. I remember the description of the fight from that article. as the author writes !! screaming out loud. spat at each other. threw stones and related items.
    2. Glot
      Glot 23 October 2015 11: 01 New
      0
      The emperor of Rome, Andrian, almost a thousand years after the suppression of the Bar Kochba rebellion, in order to erase the memory of the rebellious people, renamed Judea to Palestine.


      Andrian means Adrian?
      Since he could rename Judea a thousand years after the suppression of the Bar Kochba rebellion, is he not MacLaud to live the millennium? smile
  4. parusnik
    parusnik 23 October 2015 08: 10 New
    +3
    Yeah, the peoples of the sea are a world mystery of history, it’s not clear where they came from, it’s not clear where they went .. Thank you, we are waiting for the end ..
  5. abrakadabre
    abrakadabre 23 October 2015 09: 21 New
    +6
    In the penultimate figure, there are several very significant inaccuracies:
    1. In the foreground is the most richly equipped warrior. But ... without shoes. While the shield bearer standing behind him is not barefoot. A rich leader in a first-class armor complex and barefoot ... Yes, on the rocky Mediterranean grounds ... Nonsense. There, even horses without horseshoe hooves are washed for one or two.
    2. To be consistent and logical in the use of weapon systems, a shield-bearer with a growth shield should hold a spear and have a dagger on the band (as an auxiliary and cheaper weapon). And the obvious leader standing in the foreground should be armed with just a long shield-bearer sword. A large sword involves active fencing in a more sparse formation than, for example, a shorter later gladius. Therefore, a swordsman with a large sword should be armed with a more convenient and maneuverable smaller shield. An equally large shield implies a tight formation and the use of a spear.
    3. Are there any sources for the use of pants in the Eastern Mediterranean in Ancient and Mycenaean times? I haven’t seen anything from it. But I could be wrong. The same later Greek hoplites did not wear pants and wore greaves without them. Most likely on the shock-absorbing winding.
    4. The leader in the foreground, with obvious prosperity, does not have leggings. Which is very strange. Especially in the absence of a shield. Like bracers of any design. From massive bracelets to special ones. When fencing open, the limbs are the same targets as the torso with the head. Especially hands like holding weapons and those closest to the attacker.
    At the same time, a shield-bearer with such a large shield from the ground to the head, most likely would not have had a grease. As a result of greater poverty. And, most importantly, because of their uselessness. Now, if he was armed with an analog of a hoplon that covers only the torso and upper thigh (like the hoplites), then the leggings are what the doctor ordered.
    1. tanit
      tanit 23 October 2015 10: 28 New
      +1
      I will add. The swordsman's growth shield is "trophy", Mycenaean. Moreover, it was "removed from service" 300 years before the Trojan War, and so 500 years before the battles of the Mycenaeans with the "Sea Peoples".
    2. tanit
      tanit 23 October 2015 10: 28 New
      0
      I will add. The swordsman's growth shield is "trophy", Mycenaean. Moreover, it was "removed from service" 300 years before the Trojan War, and so 500 years before the battles of the Mycenaeans with the "Sea Peoples".
    3. kalibr
      23 October 2015 13: 41 New
      +2
      As you correctly noted all these little things ... In defense of the artist, I can say only one thing: Osprey requires a sketch for each drawing, and on it the arrows indicate where what is from ... If the pattern is a photo from where, if the decoration is a photo from a museum showcase. Or a link to a book by a reputable author and a drawing. When I was preparing my books for them, for each sketch I presented 5-6 sheets of copiers and photographs. Indicate the fabric, the method of coloring, metal, bone ... EVERYTHING IS SPECIFIED. Link - "I see it" is not accepted. 20-30 photos to confirm your settings! That is, it was based on something. Although, of course, I have not seen the originals of the sketches.
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 23 October 2015 15: 29 New
        +2
        Who argues, individual items and items of clothing / weapons is not a question. The question is how to combine them in the preparation of the illustration.
  6. blizart
    blizart 23 October 2015 09: 27 New
    +3
    Pleased with the appearance on the site of such authors and the presence of trained readers.
  7. Velizariy
    Velizariy 23 October 2015 10: 35 New
    +3
    ... The emperor of Rome, Andrian, almost a thousand years after the suppression of the Bar Kochba rebellion, in order to erase the memory of the rebellious people, renamed Judea to Palestine .... [/ quote]
    This rebellious people, rebellious received the rulers whom the conqueror of Rome appointed ... Before that, the Persians, Asyrians, Babylonians, before that the Egyptians, after which Moses erased the slavish consciousness from the rebellious people for 40 years. And then Titus did not submit at all and for 2000 years, without a small one, they did not have a state at all.
    1. kumaxa
      kumaxa 24 October 2015 19: 32 New
      0
      well! actually according to the bible. the Jews were taken captive by the Babylonians under King Nebuchadnezzar and the Assyrians. already after Egypt.
  8. marline
    marline 23 October 2015 10: 36 New
    +1
    Great article, I’ll add a picture from Dupuis from myself (in an article from fragments):
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 23 October 2015 11: 43 New
      +3
      Despite the sketchiness of this relief, certain conclusions can also be drawn from it:
      1. Based on the presented weapons, the metallurgy was well developed among the peoples of the sea and there was excellent access to the copper and tin deposits. Armor depicted in bulk.
      2. The same cannot be said of the Egyptians. That metallurgy among the Egyptians was no worse developed, is known from other sources. But the amount of metal available, the relief speaks clearly. It is understandable, Egypt imported metals through the same ones represented on the relief of the conquerors. At least the Egyptian Navy had much less armor.
      3. The ships of the Egyptians are uniquely river and not adapted for long voyages outside the river - the absence of any hint of a developed keel. Essentially - just boats of a very large size. This is confirmed by archaeological and other pictorial sources. At the same time, ships of the peoples of the sea have a more developed and adapted design for navigation in the sea. The shape of the lower bow and stern hint at the presence of at least some keel. This certainly reduces the side roll on the waves. In general, increases seaworthiness.
      4. Based on weapons, the Sea Peoples were focused on energetic rapprochement and boarding combat. At the same time, it is somewhat strange that oars are not depicted on their ships. To actively maneuver in a naval battle only under sail is extremely unproductive and critical to the presence of a tailwind.
      At the same time, the Egyptians relied on remote massed shelling from bows. And they were able to impose it on the invasion fleet. The presence of a large number of rowers also contributed to this.
      5. It is possible that a considerable part of the ships of the conquerors were capacious transporters, carrying a ground contingent for the invasion with supplies, and not specialized warships. Indeed, in the Cretan-Mycenaean and Trojan eras, warships with a keel, a characteristic bow ram and a large number of oars for maneuvering and using this ram are well known for the "peoples of the sea", similar to the later Greek unirem-bireme-triremes. Which is also understandable. Such warships are ideal in the Greek archipelago, but not large enough for supplies, for such a long journey as crossing the vast open space of the Southeastern Mediterranean Sea to Egypt.
      1. kalibr
        23 October 2015 13: 45 New
        +1
        All this is in English. lang and to England, in a review of these books. True, the British would not be surprised !!! They know that we have many good historians who know their business. But it would still be nice!
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 23 October 2015 15: 33 New
          0
          I think they arrived at the same conclusions long before me. All this is simply striking.
          1. kalibr
            24 October 2015 13: 42 New
            0
            Surprisingly, someone for you put a minus. The question is, what? What do you look good in pictures? And see there inconsistencies?
            1. abrakadabre
              abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 16 New
              0
              From me will not depart. And I will not stupid from this minus. And I won’t lose interest in self-education
        2. kumaxa
          kumaxa 24 October 2015 19: 38 New
          0
          I will disappoint you to the British all this is far sideways! because they consider themselves the center of the universe. and I recall ordinary Nazism is the work of the British liberal philosophers as well as the concentration camps. There is a good poem from our childhood R. KIPLING. WHITE HUMAN.
      2. brn521
        brn521 23 October 2015 18: 17 New
        +2
        Quote: abrakadabre
        characteristic nasal ram

        When scrolling through Internet articles, the following was postponed. Initially "battering ram" is a design feature. Reinforced central part of the conventional "raft", which is then folded, giving the hull shape. Then it was rated as a breakwater. For some reason not clear to me, such a nose contributes to a better course on the sea wave, especially under the oars. But on the ocean, the nose, on the contrary, begins to bury itself too much in the water, so the design is characteristic precisely for the Mediterranean. Well, then, when the design and strength of the skin allowed, this ledge was strengthened and began to be used as a ram. And before that, even a weak blow could lead to a leak or even destruction of the cladding fasteners. Again, it works well against ships of a similar design. Heavier ships, merchant or medieval, with hulls attached to a powerful inner (or even outer) set, better resist ram attacks. In the presented period, the Phoenicians should have had such ships.
        Quote: abrakadabre
        Perhaps a considerable part of the ships of the conquerors were roomy transporters carrying the ground contingent for the invasion with supplies

        The texts said something about the fact that the Egyptians hooked the ships of the aliens with hooks and turned them over. So there were obviously ordinary "kayaks", narrow and with an extremely lightweight body. The transports have a problem. They do not come ashore, but wait for a favorable wind somewhere in harbors or bays. But with a tailwind, they can go around the clock. Weight is not critical, so the hull can be reinforced for better seaworthiness and better sail use. A sail, unlike oars, does not imply the distribution of tractive effort along the entire side, but, on the contrary, loads only individual parts of the hull (mast support, cable stay and stays), so it is better to use a hull with a reinforced set. On warships, the hull is extremely lightweight, there is little space, and the seaworthiness is poor. It is better for such people to pester somewhere at night, and to pull the ships ashore. And the ship is safe, and the crew normally rests and sleeps on the shore. Whereas on the ship itself, even shops may not be enough for everyone, if the team is strengthened to conduct hostilities.
        However, I could find somewhere a full-fledged report on the sailing of the same "Ivlia". And then some stubs, a photo here, a couple of comments there.
        Why am I doing this. You can’t just drown a transport worker.
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 18 New
          0
          The transporter does not have to be drowned. Its just nicer to capture. The au pair is helpful.
          But what transporters compared to rowing warships have incomparable maneuverability and speed, is crucial during the battle.
          Moreover, the warships of that time were far from being boats for a couple of people, but transporters were not at all a modern tanker with vertical 10-15-meter smooth sides.
      3. brn521
        brn521 23 October 2015 19: 01 New
        0
        Quote: abrakadabre
        Moreover, it is somewhat strange that their oars are not shown oars.

        Rowing vessels are vulnerable to casualties among the rowing crew. Violation of synchronization. Perhaps removed, having come under fire.
        Quote: abrakadabre
        The ships of the Egyptians are uniquely river and not adapted for long voyages outside the river

        A small analysis of relief images is here. http://histseeship.com/ramzesIII.html Alien ships are in good harmony with the ships from here http://histseeship.com/kenamun.html Again bearded, again on the ships of the Egyptian type and again without oars. Sailed to trade.
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 24 New
          0
          It is of course an option. But what can a rowing ship with numerous infantry on board do under heavy shelling, how to avoid boarding at maximum speed? After pulling in the oars and covering the rowers, the ship loses not only maneuver, but generally turns into a floating island. And the attackers have the opportunity to do whatever they want: circle around, shoot little by little any who appear, come under fire to the distance of the torch throw ...
      4. Aljavad
        Aljavad 24 October 2015 03: 03 New
        0
        as a passage to Egypt through the vast open space of the Southeastern Mediterranean Sea.


        From the island of Crete from the mountain in fine weather, a hint of Africa seems to be visible.

        I read that the sea peoples migrated with children and belongings. So they could not resist the regular forces ...

        Otherwise, good observations!
        1. kumaxa
          kumaxa 24 October 2015 19: 45 New
          0
          BUT, first, pharaoh and the army set up a camp of peoples at the mouth of the Nile. and then the current in the arms of the mouth of the nile broke the fleet of nations. judging by descriptions, the Egyptians didn’t fight at sea. in those days only the Phoenicians were capable of this.
        2. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 31 New
          0
          The shortest distance between Crete and Africa is approximately 285 km. In no weather can Africa be seen from Crete. Even from the mountain. Because:
          a) the corresponding coast of Africa - a low plain with a height of 0 to ~ 200 meters;
          b) at such a distance, evaporation above the sea surface will make the air insufficiently transparent. Everything will turn into a gray-blue misty haze.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. marline
      marline 23 October 2015 14: 01 New
      0
      From there, Egyptian ships of different eras:
      http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2015/801/ygze232.jpg
      http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2015/350/kuvr799.jpg

      The ship of the era of the raids of the "peoples of the sea" (in the article "Naval battle of the Egyptians ..."):
      http://topwar.ru/uploads/images/2015/034/giqx976.jpg
      1. abrakadabre
        abrakadabre 23 October 2015 15: 41 New
        0
        From the above figure it is clear that the Egyptians were also not averse to taking the ship on board. This is evident from the ram design - the point of impact above the waterline. So the ram can be used to clutch with the enemy ship and the subsequent boarding (otherwise why bother with it). They can also break the ranks of the oars of the enemy in the passing course.
        For comparison, the ram of the Greek triremes was located at or below the waterline, which allows drowning the enemy without getting involved in hand-to-hand combat. Also, the lack of extensions at the end of the ram of the Greek ships made it easier to back up and free itself from the enemy after the ram.
        The ram in the presented figure has an extension (the head of the beast). This allows you to more reliably grapple with it when breaking the side of an enemy ship.
  9. Jääkorppi
    Jääkorppi 23 October 2015 11: 12 New
    0
    Thanks so much for the article! It is unfortunate that you were not able to visit the Crimea! Moreover, Osprey publishes works including Russian authors! We are waiting for new work! It is interesting about the peoples of the sea and about ancient Crete!
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 13: 52 New
      +1
      Yes, in the Crimea, I have been many times, but I looked in the wrong place! You don't climb the ruins a lot with your family. "I'm thirsty, I'm tired ..." And in Osprey I have already published 4 books. But David Nicole, my co-author - he is ten years older than me, learned both his son and daughter (that is, you don’t need to pay for Oxford and Cambridge!) And decided to throw all his strength into writing an academic book. He already has one in two volumes of 860 pages each, so he decided to make another one. So I won't work with him anymore. And without a co-author there it is difficult for our Russian brother - I still do not write like a Briton.
      There will be material from one of my colleagues about the death of the Minoan civilization, the 2 part of this material and another 10 material is final. It has already been written - follow BO.
      1. Glot
        Glot 23 October 2015 14: 14 New
        0
        You don't climb the ruins a lot with your family. "I'm thirsty, I'm tired ..."


        The familiar picture. smile
        When I climbed Ephesus, my wife was nude, heat +50 and in general. It was not possible to climb all ... Then he took her to what was left of the temple of Artemis, one of the Wonders of the World smile , well, it’s clear that there was already nothing to look at, but even that, we went back and so on ... And as for the tombs of Kavnos in the rocks, it did not climb with me ...
        In general, if you want to see something, climb where, it’s better alone. smile
        1. kalibr
          23 October 2015 15: 55 New
          0
          Yes, I alone in a day traveled all the most interesting places in Northern Cyprus, and the three of us did not see the whole of Southern Cyprus, although we were there for more than two weeks. Yes, and expensive, damn them - our "tours". For example, we traveled from a Bulgarian travel agency. Ours - 56 euros per person, they have 26. The same route!
        2. kumaxa
          kumaxa 24 October 2015 19: 52 New
          0
          Well, she had to guess the poor woman to drag in the mountains! better, I would go shopping with my wife. and then in the mountains. Here yyyud!
          1. abrakadabre
            abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 36 New
            0
            You are like a child, by golly. Nobody dragged her of course.
            Are you married? If so, you should be aware that in such cases, lugging is always the spouse's initiative. Even though she knows in advance that she is not interested and wants to go to another place.
            smile
            Anyway, despite the proposal to split up, wives always choose to hang around with you in such cases. Then they quickly get tired of putting up with it and start to get tired.
  10. andrew42
    andrew42 23 October 2015 12: 01 New
    +5
    Reading in childhood the modern interpretations of the Iliad, for some reason he always found himself psychologically on the side of the Trojans. Troy - from this word it always blew with something relatives and friends. Not like all sorts of Argos, Sparta, Thebes. Information about the period 2000-1000 BC set out in various concepts: mythological, archaeological, linguistic, finally, on literary monuments like the Iliad.
    In the end, compiling a heterogeneous info, I got something like this picture, - further theses:
    1) Phaistos disc. The island of Crete. Orient. 1650 - 1550 BC About the letters - "in the words of the famous specialist in archeology of Crete J. Pendlebury," it is better to pass over them in silence ".
    2) Explosion of Santorin volcano on the island of Thira. Orient. 1600-1500 BC The thickness was 3 times higher than the Krakatau eruption. That is - hundreds of atomic bombs.
    3) Minoan culture. Officially 2500-1400 BC Moreover, the last buildings are "over the ashes", but the culture is the same.
    4) Archaeological: Northern Black Sea region. 1600-1400 BC Interruption of the Cimmerian (it is, in fact, early Scythian) culture. It is also the Srubnaya culture of barrow burials. - Thrown away for Don. Seizure of the North. The Black Sea region is the so-called "culture of multi-roll ceramics", identified with the "Thracians", although such a naming is pulled out of the geography of much later eras and has no ethnic meaning in relation to the Thracian tribe. Conditionally - from the territory of later Thrace.
    5) 1400 BC Return of the Srubnaya culture to the Northern Black Sea region. Now it is already called "early Scythian" - the successive "Cimmerian".
    6) The "Achaean" union of tribes, driven from the north of the Balkans and from the Danube, invades the Balkan Peninsula, sweeping away the Pelasgian populations, burning cities, or destroying the infrastructure around powerful fortresses (so Mycenae and Tiryns fell).
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 13: 54 New
      0
      Yes, it is. You can insert and draw a very beautiful map in Wikipedia!
    2. Aljavad
      Aljavad 24 October 2015 03: 21 New
      +1
      4) Archaeological: Northern Black Sea region. 1600-1400 BC Interruption of the Cimmerian (it is, in fact, early Scythian) culture. It is also the Srubnaya culture of barrow burials. - Thrown away for Don. Seizure of the North. The Black Sea region is the so-called "culture of multi-roll ceramics", identified with the "Thracians", although such a naming is pulled out of the geography of much later eras and has no ethnic meaning in relation to the Thracian tribe. Conditionally - from the territory of later Thrace.

      Everything is beautiful. But here's the question: Why is there a demographic (or technological?) Explosion in the "territory of later Thrace"? What drove them to the steppe and allowed them to beat the Chimers?
      1. kumaxa
        kumaxa 24 October 2015 20: 03 New
        0
        the period of the end of the Bronze Age, as well as the rest, are periods of climatic changes. According to this version, great transfigurations of peoples began from the territory of southwestern Siberia in the Aral Sea region of the southern Urals. in the Caspian littoral, the flows were divided and diverged, who from the west to Europe, who to the southwest to front Asia.
  11. andrew42
    andrew42 23 October 2015 12: 26 New
    +2
    Continued:
    So, the remnants of the Minoan culture (aka the culture of the Pelasgians), which never recovered from that Santorini nightmare, perish in a few years under the blows of the Achaean conquerors. The latter are extremely fierce - they were driven to the south by the Scythians who returned from behind the Don, who changed the agricultural way of the "Cimmerian fathers" to a more militarized and mobile semi-nomadic way of "Scythian children" (see "Horses of Resa" in the Iliad).
    7) Myths: Scamander, a native of Crete, "moves" to Asia Minor. Founds the Phrygian kingdom.
    By the method of exhaustion from the reverse - conditionally 1350 BC
    8) Myths: Tevkr, the son (descendant, relative) of Scamander, develops Phrygia.
    Ancient Greek authors call it Cretan roots, but the Athenians (and ethnically these "nobles" of Greece have always identified themselves with the Azians) claim the homeland (ancestral home) of Tevkra.
    We call it conditionally 1330 BC
    8 *) In the same period: Dardanus (in mythology, the son of Zeus), also a typical "Cretan", first moves to the island of Samothrace, and then to the coast of Asia Minor. He builds great-Troy, or moves into a "Phrygian outpost", it doesn't matter. The main thing is that he is of the same ethnic group, and marries the daughter (sister) of Tevkra, the ruler of Phrygia. That is, the second wave of Minoan refugees.
    9) The name of the son of Dardan is somehow not indicated. Conditionally, we will accept 1310 BC
    10) Troy, is the grandson of Dardan. Conditionally 1290 BC
    11) Il - the great-grandson of Dardan. Conditionally 1270 BC
    12) Laomedont, - the legendary builder of that very "Powerful" Troy, - with the mythological help of Poseidon and Apollo (and these are Asia Minor deities), and to the great discontent of Zeus (a typically "Achaean" deity). This is the 6th city in the same place. Conventionally - 1250 BC
    12 *) According to legend, Hercules (that is, the "Achaean" hero) captures Troy, kills Laomedont and all his sons. But the rule of the invaders did not last long. As you can see, the Trojan War was far from the first Achaean raid on Troy / Ilion. The descendants of the Minoans continue to gouge and gouge. But! the king's youngest son, Priam, remains alive. He revives both the power of Troy and all of Phrygia as a whole.
    I draw attention to the fact that there is another oglasovka of his name - a GIFT! (last child of the king).
    13) Well, and then 1240-1230 BC. Trojan War. The rest is more or less known. I draw your attention to the fact that the gang of "ataman" Agamemnon is terrified before the march of the "horses of Res" (that is, the Scythians). on the side of the Trojans, the Amazons (the Scythians who established themselves in Asia Minor with the arrival from the Caucasus) are fighting, well, a lot
    what more.
    14) And now, "... dancing!" The fact that the Etruscans / Rassens are tied to the Trojans is even claimed by modern pseudo-historical science. And return to point (1) FESTIC DISC translated by S.S. Grinevich:
    "The sorrows and the past cannot be counted, however, the sorrows of the present are bitter. In a new place you will feel them. All together. What else did God the Father send us? A place in the world of God. Do not count the past strife. A place in the world of God that God sent us to -Father, surround him in close ranks. Protect him day and night: not a place, but a Will. Rejoice in her power. Her children are still alive, knowing whose they are in this world of God. "
    "We will live again. There will be service to God. Everything will be in the past, we will forget that we are. There are children - there are bonds - we will forget what we have. What to count, God-Father! Lynx enchants the eyes. You cannot get away from it, you cannot be cured of it. We will be more than once, we will hear: "Whose will you be, trotters? What are the honors for you? Helmets in curls, talking about you ... "".
    And the Peoples of the Sea are rather the "gangs" of the ancestors of Agamemnon, who swept through the Peloponnese and reached Egypt. Achaeans, Danaans, and other robbers. The Minoans with Egypt were all right. The Minoans were more important in the Mediterranean. And geopolitically, "Igipt" was not opposed. Why confront your dominion? Britain and Canada are similar.
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 14: 05 New
      +1
      By the way, Grinevich is a geologist by profession! And I didn't even know that the Kommersant sign until 1918 in the Russian alphabet was called the letter "er". And disassembled the disk ...
      Oh, I don’t like the themes of the Vles book, but I’m probably going to write about it ...
      1. Glot
        Glot 23 October 2015 14: 17 New
        0
        Oh, I don’t like the themes of the Vles book, but I’m probably going to write about it ...


        And what is there to write? A muddy story, a slurred fake that's all.
        1. kalibr
          23 October 2015 15: 56 New
          0
          Well, yes short it is. Just transfers from it became a lot ...
      2. The comment was deleted.
  12. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 23 October 2015 13: 07 New
    0
    Interestingly, is this all about collecting for the candidate? Painfully interesting topic.
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 14: 01 New
      +1
      Will pull, subject to 5 publications in the journals of the Higher Attestation Commission and the presence of the Council for the Ancient World with 5 specialists. But they will demand from you NOVELTY, WHAT YOU OFFERED, FOUND AND PROVED NEW? Agree that I have worked out the historiographic aspect of the topic much better than the historical one. And what will you defend against? By 2 or by 9? And the Council where, and the publications ... I would not advise you. Although so ... here it is, take it, rewrite it and go ahead! The publishing house did not take my book about this ... "narrow topic". And you are the dissertation! The candidate's thesis should be written on a "relevant topic".
    2. kalibr
      23 October 2015 16: 12 New
      0
      Here is the topic "Military affairs of the peoples of the Aegean world based on the poems of Homer" (look, maybe someone has already written on it) And defend yourself at the Institute of Military History.
  13. andrew42
    andrew42 23 October 2015 13: 09 New
    +3
    I apologize, with the following I got excited in the heat of the presentation: "So, the remnants of the Minoan culture (aka the culture of the Pelasgians), which never recovered from that Santorini nightmare, are dying in a few years under the blows of the Achaean conquerors." Of course, for several decades. Fifty-hundred years. The algorithm and pace of the conquest were most likely similar to the conquest of Asia Minor by the Seljuk Turks - this is a whiter and more illustrative example. But this makes it all the more likely that the remnants of the Minoans flee to Asia from 1350 to 1250 BC.
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 23 October 2015 15: 47 New
      0
      Of course, several decades. About fifty-one hundred. The algorithm and pace of the conquest were most likely similar to the conquest of the Seljuk Turks by Asia Minor - this is an example whiter than later and illustrative.
      Which is more suitable for expansion than for conquest. Although, the Reconquista generally lasted 700 years.
    2. Romans
      Romans 23 October 2015 15: 58 New
      0
      The Pelasgians, they are the Philistines, they are the PLST Egyptians, a very large people, their habitat from Italy to Palestine! They lived under Herodotus in Greece (2th century) and even during the XNUMXnd Punic period are mentioned as one of the inhabitants of Magna Graecia (XNUMXrd century). So there is no talk of any extermination of the Pelasgians! The so-called "Peoples of the Sea" paved with fire and sword the road from Balkan Greece together with neighboring islands, through Asia Minor, Syria, Phenicia, Judea, Palestine, Sinai, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia to Italy. After the so-called victory over the "Sea Peoples", Egypt did not come to its senses and slowly but surely went to its historical finale, which finally came under the Romans.
      1. Aljavad
        Aljavad 24 October 2015 03: 27 New
        +1
        Egypt after the so-called victory over the "Sea Peoples" did not come to its senses and slowly but surely went to its historical finale, which finally came under the Romans.


        A thousand (!) Odd years of extinction? Not every runoff civilization will exist!

        As they said in the USSR, "It rots beautifully!"
  14. Glot
    Glot 23 October 2015 13: 18 New
    +1
    And now, "... dancing!"


    This is yes ...
    But the trouble is, the Etruscans are not Russian, and the Fest disk is still not decrypted.
    And so on and so forth ...
    If we study the problem, then from different points, and not from one more convenient, desirable and interesting. request
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 23 October 2015 13: 41 New
      +2
      Well, if it fits into a more or less harmonious space-time concept, then why not? In any case, this is at least something in comparison with the incantations of figures from history in the ranks of our "partners", such as "Etruscan cannot be read", "The Fest disc has not been deciphered." That's all, well, everything is just deciphered. Down to all the Dead Sea scrolls, where they wrote without vowels. And there are only two languages ​​in European / Mediterranean archeology that defy deciphering! Doesn't this fact bother you? And these are not some kind of pictograms, and not even "lines and cuts". Quite a civilized letter of highly cultured peoples.
      1. Glot
        Glot 23 October 2015 14: 24 New
        0
        "fest disc is not decrypted".


        Yes, that's right.
        What can you do ? request
        I say, study this story from different points.
        What kind of literature on the topic have you read?
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. andrew42
      andrew42 23 October 2015 13: 47 New
      +2
      Of course the Etruscans are not Russian. Just as the Russians are not Muscovites, and the Muscovites are not ancient Rusichs, and the Slavs are not Scythians, and the Scythians are not Aryans. However, this does not break the line of succession, and at least in our historical tradition, no one denies that "Glorious and Scythian, like eagles to fly .. and founded the city of Slovensk on the river, I recommend Mutnaya." It would be strange if modern Russians were suddenly identical with the Etruscans. Ethnogenesis, you know. there are side branches, there is a trunk.
  15. dvg79
    dvg79 23 October 2015 14: 14 New
    +1
    But the Jews do not come out invaders? Strange Old Testament says that the invaders who committed the genocide of the natives.
  16. The comment was deleted.
  17. Pcorda38
    Pcorda38 23 October 2015 15: 06 New
    +1
    the fantastic spoke of the Peoples the seaman so dear to my land. Sherdans and Thiersens, were Sardinians! We have so much archaeological evidence (in Sardinia) and academic (in Egypt).


    1- Le Colonne D'Ercole. L'inchiesta - di Sergio Frau

    2- Shardana: I Popoli Del Mare - di Leonardo Melis



    1- because Sergio Frau:

    The first pillars of Hercules were found in the Strait of Sicily, according to Sergio Frau in his fundamental research, this fact was recognized even by the most tenacious critics of this journalist. There is a version that Sardinia is the very lost Atlantis and Sergio Frau was not the only one who adhered to this version, but was one of the few who possessed sufficiently strong evidence. It is believed that Atlantis was located somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean, because, according to Plato, it should have been behind the Herculean pillars, which, according to another ancient writer, Eratosthenes, were located near Gibraltar.
    But Frau believes that Eratosthenes, the librarian and geographer who lived in Alexandria in the third and second centuries BC, was mistaken, and the Pillars were actually located in Sicily.
    It occurred to Frau when he saw two maps of the Mediterranean, as it was in the Bronze Age. Tunisia and Sicily almost touched on one of them, Gibraltar was hardly distinguishable on the other.
    Frau believes that Eratosthenes was mistaken, because over 120 years, the period between his era and the era of Plato, the world of Greece has changed dramatically and the strait between Sicily and Africa was no longer than the length of the Empire.
    Moreover, geological shifts and
    rising sea levels increased the distance between Tunisia and Sicily, which resulted in the error of Eratosthenes. If the pillars of Hercules really were in Sicily, Sardinia would have been part of Atlantis.




    2 - because Leonardo Melis: .... Well, the photos speak for themselves!
    1. Glot
      Glot 23 October 2015 15: 49 New
      0
      It is believed that Atlantis was located somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean, because, according to Plato, it should have been behind the Herculean pillars, which, according to another ancient writer, Eratosthenes, were located near Gibraltar.


      Atlantis is a myth. Fictional ideal state and no more. smile
      1. Pcorda38
        Pcorda38 23 October 2015 16: 12 New
        0
        Atlantis myth ... true !! But the "great green sea" is not. Nuraghi South Sardinia, covered with land, brought from the sea (tsunami) at the time of Shardana. The Egyptians spoke of the land of Shardana being destroyed in one day and one night from the sea, which was located in the "great green sea" ... to the west ... above the columns of Hercules ... according to the Greeks!

        Plato's myth: "grandissima Isola di Atlante, terra del tramonto - sorella della Roccia di Prometeo, il Caucaso dell'Alba greca - si raggiungevano altre isole e la terra che tutto circonda. E che quell'isola era stata grande, ricca di metalli e felice di tutto, fin quando non venne travolta da cataclismi marini che Zeus inviò per rendere migliori i suoi abitanti. " ... Atlantis, but not Shardanas> Sardanya> Sardinya> Sardigna


        The pillars of Hercules are not in Gibraltar, but in Sicily, actually bringing Herodotus’s calculations:
    2. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 23 October 2015 15: 55 New
      +2
      Moreover, geological shifts and
      rising sea levels have increased the distance between Tunisia and Sicily
      Have you seen a map of the depths of that area? Do you imagine the scale of forces that can cause such changes in the tectonics of such a vast area?
      Yes, with such a cataclysm, an asteroid disaster that led to the disappearance of dinosaurs (the Chiksulutsky astroblema) will nervously smoke on the sidelines. Even in the case of stretching the changes for decades, and not a one-time cataclysm.

      Atlantis is an extremely hackneyed topic. The most likely version of this phenomenon is Minoan civilization and its decline in connection with the eruption of Santorini. In Santorini itself, by the way, at the time of the eruption there was a large settlement of the Minoans with a port. For hundreds of years, this catastrophe has grown over the epic scale of the continent's sinking.
      Somehow, I remember reading a version about the dating of Atlantis. The fact is that the ancient Greeks did not know our modern system of recording numbers and wrote down numbers with an alphabetic system similar to the later Roman one. And in different parts of the Mediterranean there were slight nuances in this. Something like, conditionally:
      - people A - - people B -
      A - units B - units
      B - dozens; C - dozens
      B - hundreds G - hundreds
      D - thousands D - thousands
      .

      Given these nuances, if you select the wrong scale when reading sources (or with the scribe's negligence), the time intervals change by an order of magnitude. Which is very consistent with the age indicated by Plato of this Atlantis. With a decrease in her age by an order of magnitude, just about the time of sunset of the Minoan civilization is obtained.
      1. Pcorda38
        Pcorda38 24 October 2015 17: 15 New
        +1
        Quote: abrakadabre
        Moreover, geological shifts and
        rising sea levels have increased the distance between Tunisia and Sicily
        Have you seen a map of the depths of that area? Do you imagine the scale of forces that can cause such changes in the tectonics of such a vast area?
        Yes, with such a cataclysm, an asteroid disaster that led to the disappearance of dinosaurs (the Chiksulutsky astroblema) will nervously smoke on the sidelines. Even in the case of stretching the changes for decades, and not a one-time cataclysm.

        Atlantis is an extremely hackneyed topic. The most likely version of this phenomenon is Minoan civilization and its decline in connection with the eruption of Santorini. In Santorini itself, by the way, at the time of the eruption there was a large settlement of the Minoans with a port. For hundreds of years, this catastrophe has grown over the epic scale of the continent's sinking.
        Somehow, I remember reading a version about the dating of Atlantis. The fact is that the ancient Greeks did not know our modern system of recording numbers and wrote down numbers with an alphabetic system similar to the later Roman one. And in different parts of the Mediterranean there were slight nuances in this. Something like, conditionally:
        - people A - - people B -
        A - units B - units
        B - dozens; C - dozens
        B - hundreds G - hundreds
        D - thousands D - thousands
        .

        Given these nuances, if you select the wrong scale when reading sources (or with the scribe's negligence), the time intervals change by an order of magnitude. Which is very consistent with the age indicated by Plato of this Atlantis. With a decrease in her age by an order of magnitude, just about the time of sunset of the Minoan civilization is obtained.



        ABRAKADABRA, I have not seen my opinion ... sorry, not yet practical "interface" on topwar.
        how to answer?
        First, we are talking about a period. Let's talk about 1200 BC ... it's the golden age of Nuragica civilization.

        Second, let's talk about geology. Porto examples of the "Su Nuraksi" fortress from Barumini (photo) with a 20 meter stand. The fortress is located on a hill 238 meters above sea level. The dolmen was covered in mud and people didn't grow grain until 1950 !!! Many other Nuraghi are buried in the hills around Campidano (according to the Egyptians, Atlantis disappeared in a tsunami day and night). Throughout Sardinia we surveyed more than 7000 Nuragi, but found up to 11000. This is a sign of a great civilization, very populated (Sartorini was not very large, it is inhabited.
        Third, we are talking about Atlantis. Atlantis was to the West, Santorini to the East. Atlantis has no volcanoes (Sartorini yes, no Sardinia). Atlantis has a large plain with mountains around (no Sartorini, but yes Sardinia). Atlantis is rich in metals and silver (no Sartorini, yes Sardinia);
        Fourth, the pillars of Hercules. in the 5th century BC, and Herodotus himself does not know where it ends in the West. How did he find out to stay the Strait of Gibraltar ?. He did not know, !!! In fact, when you consider the travel distances of Ulysses, everything is in the Eastern Mediterranean and Adriatic.

        Fifth, Tartesso. Where is tartesso. Andalusia? Have you ever found you the remains of Tartesso with a stele written? ... No !!! In Sardinia, Nora stele (South Sardinia), shows the name Tartess. The myth says that Tartess was associated with Corsica, and 30 days sail from Iberia.
  18. Pcorda38
    Pcorda38 23 October 2015 15: 13 New
    +1
    bronze statues
    1. Aljavad
      Aljavad 24 October 2015 03: 33 New
      +1
      bronze statues


      Nuragi is very interesting.
  19. Pcorda38
    Pcorda38 23 October 2015 15: 15 New
    +1
    Nuragic Bronze Ship (Votive Lucerne)
  20. Pcorda38
    Pcorda38 23 October 2015 15: 19 New
    0
    bronze statues in series
  21. Pcorda38
    Pcorda38 23 October 2015 15: 24 New
    +3
    fortress Nuragica "Su Nuraxi" Barumini (Sardinia)
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 16: 10 New
      0
      Very interesting! Would love to go there!
      1. Pcorda38
        Pcorda38 23 October 2015 16: 47 New
        +2
        You would be welcome. Many Russians are in Sardinia ... even when using a car with a Russian license plate, especially in Arzachena Porto Rotondo (Olbia).
        Russians are very popular in Sardinia because you are very kind people.
  22. Romans
    Romans 23 October 2015 16: 02 New
    0
    Many thanks to the author and fellow countryman for the article! The topic is very interesting! I have a question that’s not quite a topic. Can you tell me about the Tartesse state?
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 16: 13 New
      0
      No I can not. Not the topic! Sorry.
    2. Pcorda38
      Pcorda38 23 October 2015 16: 41 New
      +1
      Tartess says Leonardo Melis, but I don’t think there is a book in Russian!


      But "Le Colonne D'Ercole di Sergio Frau" is much more interesting and academically very grounded.
  23. andrew42
    andrew42 23 October 2015 16: 13 New
    +1
    Based on the foregoing, I believe that the "Sea Peoples" are essentially Celtic tribes. Eastern branch. The conquering handwriting of the Achaeans / Danaans / Tanaites is very much similar to the maneuvers of their relatives from the "Book of Conquests" of Ireland, and the Gaulish campaigns in Northern Italy (the successors / relatives of the Trojans, Etruscans, and there they got rid of the Celts). And what is interesting, in all theaters of military operations, for thousands of years, we have a competitive confrontation between tribes with the haplogroup R1b (Celts, Danaians) with the tribes of the haplogroup R1a (Cimmerians, Scythians, Asia Minor states). You really can't drink genetics! From one root, but apparently the value systems are different. Where the Minoans / Pelasgians are attributed, I am at a loss. Rather, to the second. It is no coincidence that the people of Dardanus leaned back against Asia Minor, which was under the rule of the Scythian leaders. In such cases, where their own, where are strangers, people feel intuitively. What surprised me was the pictures of the "Sea Peoples" warriors. Some kind of subconscious synthesis of different details, but very much reminiscent of the images of "greyhound" Gauls, albeit of a later period.
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 19: 05 New
      0
      In Egypt, who is interested in a large array of information immediately, here: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/museums-static/digitalegypt//Welcome.html
    2. Aljavad
      Aljavad 24 October 2015 03: 36 New
      0
      "sea peoples" are essentially Celtic tribes


      They later isolated themselves. According to the language.
      1. kumaxa
        kumaxa 24 October 2015 20: 08 New
        +1
        Celts identity theme muddy. Celt is an ax form. The Romans of the Celts called Gallus - a rooster. By the way, it is the Romans who mention the existence of the fighting state of the Berserkers of the Gauls.
        1. abrakadabre
          abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 43 New
          0
          What is the "BERSERK combat formation"? Could you explain?
          The concept of "berserk" is fifteen hundred years younger and has a completely different geographic reference. As well as means an individual, not a group action.
  24. Kombrig
    Kombrig 23 October 2015 21: 43 New
    +1
    Quote: abrakadabre
    Who argues, individual items and items of clothing / weapons is not a question. The question is how to combine them in the preparation of the illustration.

    Logic and common sense ... If the reconstruction is based only on arch. finds and graphic images, then most of the soldiers will be without pants))) well, they were not found .... The path is correct, but so far limited (unfortunately) With respect to all those arguing, it's nice to read ...
    1. abrakadabre
      abrakadabre 26 October 2015 08: 48 New
      +1
      Logic and common sense are our everything. But sometimes these tools of cognition have their limits or require correction ... for other historical realities. Because our modern logic, in some matters, may slightly differ from that of 3-4 thousand years ago.
  25. Riv
    Riv 23 October 2015 21: 46 New
    0
    Of course, I cannot explain anything to the professors. They are used to treating things dug out of the ground like exhibits. "Wow! Bronze ... Wow! Arsenic ... Wow! Reconstructors cast the same ..." My approach is much more practical. The suitability of a piece of iron as a weapon is determined by its ability to make holes in the body. And if you look closely at the arsenic bronze sword, it is ... fragile. And if he also has a thin blade, then he breaks not even through the knee, but simply with his hands. After all, even a sapper shovel must be used wisely, because when it comes into contact with the enemy's skull, its blade bends trivially. Well, the steel is thin, what can you do? You must also skillfully beat with a spatula.
    What I am writing now is addressed primarily to people who know how to use their brains.

    So, let's look at the picture. A brutal-looking tanned man points his finger at you with a show-off: "Your soul belongs to me!" A sword is tied to his chest with a rope. If the man bends his right leg at the knee to take a step forward, the sword will hit his thigh.
    No less brutal is another man in a helmet with horns (is everything at home with his wife in order?) He is wearing very good armor at the time. Why what? Steeper except that the pharaoh had. At the same time, the man is barefoot. He didn’t have enough dough not only for slippers, but also for the deadest greaves. None of the three had enough armor that was really great. Maybe the uncles are tempered? ..
    Well, the third "hero" is holding on his shoulder some kind of light version of the Egyptian khopesh. Alyosha Popovich, damn it ... The khopesh had a sharpening on the inside. Now the Moreman will safely open his shoulder and it is better for you not to listen to the words that he will say at the same time.

    We proceed to consider the boarding scene. First of all, a very calm man on the bow of an Egyptian ship attracts attention. He clearly does not care. I admire endurance. But in general: who takes boarding there? If the Egyptians, so there merchants and does not smell. All people in the same type of armor. On the second ship too. What are they not divided? Pay attention to the oars. If the Egyptians attack, then why are the oars not removed? They prevent converging board to board. If the Moraeans, why aren't the Egyptians pushing back with theirs? It is extremely difficult for a rowing vessel to board aboard to board. That is why the Romans on their ships put a bridge with a sharp beak on their bow. A ram into the side, the bridge falls, the legionnaires toppled on the enemy ship and cut everyone there. Everything is simple. What do we see? Riddles are cleaner than Bilbo Gollum guessed.

    In general, there is still something to get to the bottom of the little things, but this is still enough. Summing up: guys, believe in pictures and reconstructions less. And in general, do not really trust the opinion of professors, but have your head on your shoulders. Otherwise, you will think that the Egyptians cut off their penises to their enemies. :)))
    1. kalibr
      23 October 2015 22: 00 New
      0
      About khopesh I also caught my eye. And more forks ... They are, yes, not fiction. But ... it is believed that they are for fishing, and not to go to battle. You all great noticed! But the members are still cut off. There is a record about it, not just a drawing!
      1. Riv
        Riv 24 October 2015 04: 51 New
        0
        So there is an inscription on the fence. And there is firewood.
        The professor’s problem is that he never in his life even killed a cat, not to mention larger creatures. And, of course, didn’t cut anything from them. Well, explain to me: WHY ??? Why did they stock these items, and even in such massive quantities? Pharaoh to treat impotence, or what?
        1. kalibr
          24 October 2015 07: 56 New
          0
          The article says. The Egyptians, in confirmation of the number of killed enemies, cut off their hand, usually the right one. But ... during the mass battles, they began to cut off the hands of their dead for the sake of "profit", they say, they don't care. They reported to the authorities, but no one asked the opinions of the funeral teams ... But bureaucracy is everywhere bureaucracy! "The fact of additions has been found!" So they decided how to fix this matter ... And about the cat ... There are no cats! My beloved creatures. And when he was a teacher in the village, he easily chopped off the heads of chickens, ducks, and geese. Then he stopped for chickens and ducks - it's troublesome, you just pull your hands by the neck and that's it. Also on the hunt. Twist the neck of a lined bird and that's it. My grandfather kept the rabbits. Need meat? By his legs and his head on the corner! And the inscriptions on fences and temples are different!
          1. Riv
            Riv 24 October 2015 08: 09 New
            -1
            So I say: the professor never killed anyone and had nothing to do with corpses. Meanwhile, a person's sphincter relaxes after death. If there is at least something in the rectum, it simply crawls out immediately after death. On the other hand, blood pressure drops to zero and the corpus cavernosum in the penis shrinks. In general, a corpse has organs that are much easier to cut off. It makes sense to castrate only the living. But again: why? There is a 9/10 chance that the person will die from the infection without treatment. That is, there was no sense in "educating" future slaves like that. And if the idea came to kill a person, then it is again easier for him to intercept his throat.

            Okay, I’ll explain. :) The professor was apparently unaware that circumcision was used in ancient Egypt. And they did it in adolescence, so the chest opens simply. There are no such enemies of Egypt on the fresco, but there are quite loyal Egyptians there. So to speak: volunteers.
          2. Riv
            Riv 24 October 2015 08: 09 New
            0
            So I say: the professor never killed anyone and had nothing to do with corpses. Meanwhile, a person's sphincter relaxes after death. If there is at least something in the rectum, it simply crawls out immediately after death. On the other hand, blood pressure drops to zero and the corpus cavernosum in the penis shrinks. In general, a corpse has organs that are much easier to cut off. It makes sense to castrate only the living. But again: why? There is a 9/10 chance that the person will die from the infection without treatment. That is, there was no sense in "educating" future slaves like that. And if the idea came to kill a person, then it is again easier for him to intercept his throat.

            Okay, I’ll explain. :) The professor was apparently unaware that circumcision was used in ancient Egypt. And they did it in adolescence, so the chest opens simply. There are no such enemies of Egypt on the fresco, but there are quite loyal Egyptians there. So to speak: volunteers.
            1. kalibr
              24 October 2015 13: 47 New
              0
              Have you looked at the relief? What kind of volunteers are there? And I know about circumcision, there is an article about it, you did not notice. And on the relief it says WHAT IT IS AND WHY CUT OFF. And I also know about cavernous bodies. If to draw in nature, then what to draw? So the worms are of decent size. The Egyptians used this method frequently. Relief on the wall of the temple in Medinet Abu. It is dedicated to the victory over the "peoples of the sea".
              1. Riv
                Riv 24 October 2015 16: 51 New
                -1
                This is not a temple where the columns are also in the form of members?
                However, not a fact. I personally hardly distinguish distinguish between penis and eggplant on the relief. Maybe they dragged a bag of carrots to Pharaoh? Or there can by no means be depicted a report on the results of the battle, but some completely peaceful action. Or is it still cut off hands in this form. Or fingers in general.

                On the other hand, if the "Sea Peoples" did not practice circumcision, then it was easy to distinguish them from the Egyptians. Just like a Muslim, or an Orthodox Jew from a European - taking off his pants. And if the hands can be cut off from their Egyptian corpses, then deception is excluded.
                1. brn521
                  brn521 24 October 2015 18: 51 New
                  0
                  Quote: Riv
                  On the other hand: if the "peoples of the sea" did not practice circumcision, then distinguishing them from the Egyptians was easy

                  Usually distinguished by a beard.
                  1. Riv
                    Riv 24 October 2015 21: 06 New
                    0
                    Beard on the penis ??? Original, lieutenant ... Original ...
                2. kalibr
                  24 October 2015 23: 20 New
                  +1
                  Not that one. The one in Luxor! In addition, you are not an authority in Egyptology, no matter how many "brains you include". Turn on empty brains, don't turn on ... You are not an Egyptologist by training, so what are you talking about? You don't tell the dentist what to drill and how? Trust him as a professional, don't you? And here you do not trust the Egyptologists ... What is the point of deceiving the ignorant? And each other is even more ridiculous and unprofitable. Turner - turner does not deceive, because he can check! So it is here!
                  1. Riv
                    Riv 25 October 2015 11: 01 New
                    0
                    In Luxor? Hmm ... I thought I was wrong and decided to check my memory. There she is, the column. And it is the temple in Medinet Abu.
                    That's why I do not trust. How could I put it mildly? They know too much and lie too much. It’s easier with the dentist: the seal fell out, came, presented a guarantee, made a new one.

                    1. kalibr
                      25 October 2015 17: 48 New
                      0
                      Well, it makes no sense to lie to me. A lie is not a capital. And by the way, what is a lie? Luxor is exactly the same ...
      2. kumaxa
        kumaxa 24 October 2015 20: 13 New
        +1
        Egyptians borrowed Hopes from the Semites. Egypt's usual weapon is a bow spear mace ax or a hybrid of maces and axes.
    2. The comment was deleted.
    3. brn521
      brn521 24 October 2015 18: 47 New
      0
      Quote: Riv
      He didn’t have enough dough not only for slippers, but also for the deadest greaves. None of the three had enough armor that was really great.

      The skin from seawater is stony and cracking. If the ship is without a deck, it will constantly splash at the bottom of the water. Apparently therefore barefoot.
      Quote: Riv
      But in general: who takes boarding there?

      "The battle consisted of three stages.
      At first, the Egyptians unexpectedly surrounded the enemy on land and water (probably during the landing) and archers fired at him.
      Then the Egyptian ships attacked the ships of the "Sea Peoples", firing at them and trying to hook them on the rope and turn them over.
      In the last stage, the defeated are dragged out of the water and taken prisoner on the surviving ships. "
      Taken from here http://histseeship.com/ramzesIII.html.
      1. Riv
        Riv 25 October 2015 11: 03 New
        -1
        Lieutenant, how are things with the beard? Is everything okay, not bald?
  26. Severomor
    Severomor 23 October 2015 23: 27 New
    0
    2 war and peace: they talk to themselves ??????
    Well, nonsense))))))))
  27. Aljavad
    Aljavad 24 October 2015 01: 46 New
    +1
    Who-the thread knows why the sword was hung on the right and high - the armpit? and the Romans too ...
    1. kalibr
      24 October 2015 07: 58 New
      +1
      I can say why the Romans. Was this a tactic? hide behind a large and heavy shield, which prevented the sword from being removed from the left and stabbing the enemy, who had often fallen. Hence, this form of handle. Do not reach far, quickly grab and immediately prick.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Riv
        Riv 24 October 2015 08: 23 New
        0
        Again, this is not the case.
        Imagine that you are a legionnaire. Cohort is rushing forward on swords, a dart is stuck in a shield, Germans are seizing from the front, a dump, in his left hand is a shield, in his right spear, he cannot see a centurion. Probably escaped, bastard. There were no free limbs (grabbing, not those supposedly cut off by the Egyptians to enemies). And then some kind of nimble Hans squeezed into the gap between the shields, pulled your sword from your scabbard and planted it under the lorica. Trouble...

        In order to avoid such surprises, they placed the short sword as high as possible so that the shield would cover the sword and only its owner could reach it. If you think that it was inconvenient to draw the sword like that, this is not true. He grabbed the handle, unfolded the scabbard on the belt up and pulled it back and down. A short blade allows such a technique. At the same time, the hand is immediately ready for a stab. And it turns out even faster than from the scabbard to the left on the thigh.

        But the commanders dragged the sword just to the left. But with them they were usually more authentic.
        1. kalibr
          24 October 2015 13: 56 New
          +1
          And the commanders and legionnaires had the same swords. The shield was different, Round and lighter - the center. And if you think that I invented it all, alas. All this has long been found out by very authoritative people on the basis of the writings of ancient authoritative people. So fantasy is a good thing, but you can't be "holier than the Pope."
          Perhaps today the best publication on this topic is the following:
          Weapons of the Romans / Michel Feugere / UK / Tempus Publishing House, 2002. There are also Russian-language translation books of the Osprey series, but they are also scattered across eras. And here all together and in great detail. And the period is old, you can buy with a big discount!
          1. Riv
            Riv 24 October 2015 16: 29 New
            0
            Well, what can I say? .. The Legionnaire, regardless of the position, did not receive weapons from the treasury. He bought it. To your blood sisters. Therefore, absolutely identical weapons were not and could not be. One sword is longer, the other is shorter - nothing strange. Well then there were no industry standards. Have not come up yet.

            The length of the sword is dictated by the conditions of the battle. So: the place of the company commander (and the centurion by our standards is precisely the company commander) is by no means in the platoon's battle formation. He exercises general command and must see the battlefield. In modern combat, a company NP is equipped for this, and horse officers were simply planted in legions.

            Let the author of the book to which you refer, try on occasion to get someone off the horse with a half-meter smoothness. ;)
            1. kumaxa
              kumaxa 24 October 2015 20: 35 New
              0
              Legionnaires armed themselves at their expense during the early republics. then the legionnaires armed and equipped at the expense of the state until the end of the empire. because the legionnaire became a mercenary. not a draftee. in the days of the early republic, only a rome citizen could serve. therefore, the legionnaire acquired weapons and cash at his own expense at the end of the company and received a share of the booty. later legionaries became mercenaries and served mainly for Roman citizenship. that are now actively using the Yankee. come if there is a desire. we will arm you will teach to feed, we will pay a salary, you pay current, fight. the contract poured here are those bonus. Roman citizenship and land tenure under the walls of Rome. weapons and armor were unified and modernized according to the combat tactics of the legion.
              1. Riv
                Riv 24 October 2015 21: 29 New
                0
                You contradict yourself. If the legionnaire became a professional mercenary (and this was by no means the case - there was a conscription, especially in the provinces, which could not pay taxes in money), then the mercenary always came to the service with his weapon. Any local mercenaries, auksilaria - they all had their "native" weapons. And this is understandable. Why take away the weapons that a person is accustomed to and knows how to use?

                Of course, there were also newcomers from the plow in the legion, and of course there was a supply of weapons for them. But there are nuances here too. Firstly: the service was very often hereditary and the recruit came with his father's arms. Secondly: the quality of the weapons issued to the recruits was, for obvious reasons, very low. And thirdly: weapons were given "at a minimum." Caesar called it expeditio: a spear (or sword), a shield, a helmet ... and that's it.

                And finally: before the adoption of the first industrial standard, about 1700 years remained ...
                1. kalibr
                  24 October 2015 23: 17 New
                  0
                  Mercenaries of auxiliaries also received Roman weapons, which differed from the actual Roman ones. Although not always. Sometimes fought their own. It is proven! There is a lot of information about Rome. The period is already written and monetary.
                  1. Riv
                    Riv 25 October 2015 10: 57 New
                    0
                    "Roman" but "different from Roman proper"? Eh ...

                    Imagine yourself a legate. Your legion is somewhere on the banks of the Danube and you have the opportunity to hire several hundred ready from the left bank. And you have a choice: to hire young and unburnt, or bearded, brutal thugs. Who will you hire? The choice is determined by the availability of dough. An experienced mercenary costs more. Now estimate: the young must be armed at the expense of the legion, i.e. actually at your own expense. And the experienced one will come with his own weapons, which are of very high quality, and the rookie will save up to three years, no less.

                    Well, what will you save on? On the imperial sesterces, or on weapons that don't care what yours and will still come in handy if you really have to arm "spirits"?

                    In fact, there is another very important factor, but about it later, if it is interesting.
            2. kalibr
              24 October 2015 23: 09 New
              0
              You are confusing eras. There was a time - I bought for my own. It was - received from the treasury. There were whole "factories" producing the same armor. This is in the research of Peter Connolly - his book is in Russian, by Michael Simkins and others. Now it makes no sense to delve into the details, when, under the Republic or Empire, before the reforms of Mary or after. But it was so. And the riders did not have gladiuses, but spats and they were longer. Connolly also has this, and he is probably the most authoritative historian of this topic today.
              1. Riv
                Riv 25 October 2015 10: 42 New
                0
                Well, of course. There was a time when a Roman official even received concubine slaves from the treasury. Such is communism ... And the "factory" making armor could well exist. But there is a nuance: the productivity of the blacksmith at that time did not allow him to provide at least a hundred people with standard weapons (but in reality - two dozen per year). The division of labor was too primitive. That is, she somehow could have supplied one legion with equipment, but hardly more than that.

                One more nuance. An officer carrying out the "state acceptance" of such weapons would be rich. It is hard to believe that the legate would give someone such a profitable occupation. That is, the "factory" had to constantly produce weapons of at least average quality. The legate doesn't really need his legionnaires' swords to break in their hands, and shields to break through with arrows? This means that some of the weapons will go to marriage. Her legate would buy cheaply and arm the recruits. But in the same way, some of the products will be of better quality and will not go to the Legion's warehouse, but to the free market. Who will buy it there? Yes, the soldiers will buy.
                1. marline
                  marline 25 October 2015 20: 38 New
                  +1
                  You are engaged in demagogy. This is the use of the legion, in which all legionaries are armed anyhow? This is not a legion, but a crowd.
                  Therefore, they tried to unify all the weapons of the legionnaires, and when they began to recruit a gopota, excuse me, "proletarians", of course, who, by definition, have no money for weapons, they began to arm them according to the standards of the state. score.
                  Everything is simple and logical, you just need to remove the cap from the foil to understand it :)
                  1. Riv
                    Riv 26 October 2015 05: 54 New
                    -1
                    You do not know life. Gopota will spend the last money, but he will buy a gun. Since then, nothing has changed. No matter how the mercenary, or the robber, or the ronin was poor, but his weapons will always be in order. Hand picked and ground.

                    And you were not in the army. Otherwise, they would understand a simple thing: "uniform" does not mean "the same." They never tried to ensure that the soldiers were equally armed. And the difference between mass-produced and custom-made weapons you cannot comprehend.
                    1. marline
                      marline 26 October 2015 09: 18 New
                      0
                      Blah blah blah, and not a word in the case ... Fomenkoid in his repertoire ...
                      What you wrote ... Are you friends with logic ???
                      Quote: Riv
                      Gopota will spend the last money, but he will buy a gun. Since then, nothing has changed. No matter how the mercenary, or the robber, or the ronin was poor, but his weapons will always be in order. Hand picked and ground.

                      How often do you see gopniks in camouflage, unloading, body armor and with a gun? Can you see a doctor?
                      Quote: Riv
                      And you were not in the army. Otherwise they would understand a simple thing: "uniform" does not mean "the same"

                      Learn Russian: these are synonyms.
                      Quote: Riv
                      Never that soldiers were armed equally, did not aspire.

                      What are you saying? Do words like "supply" and "logistics" tell you anything? Do you know them?
                      Quote: Riv
                      And you can’t realize the difference between mass production weapons and piece manufacturing.

                      If you are going to be released with a gladius gut, you are unlikely to have time to estimate the difference in length by plus or minus two centimeters and hardness by 5-10 units.
                      1. Riv
                        Riv 26 October 2015 11: 43 New
                        0
                        Gopnikov in camouflage, I watch every day in the pictures from Ukraine. Are you not from there? I have the impression ...

                        "Like" and "like" mean different things. The first implies weapons that provide certain tactical capabilities for the unit. For example, if one company is armed with a T-90 and the other with a T-64, then the uniformity is obvious. But it doesn't smell like the same. Another example: a motorized infantry squad may have a machine gun and a grenade launcher (or may not), and an internal military squad has a sniper and soldiers of various lengths with rubber truncheons. Again: not too identical weaponry. But uniform.

                        You didn’t serve, it’s obvious. Smash nonsense. And most importantly, passed by your consciousness. If the legate of the legion hired barbarians, then of course he brought them to the perpendicular on a par with the recruits. But then ... For any commander from ancient times to the present day, mercenaries are always special forces. Intelligence, saboteurs, corsairs, arrows ... It has always been that way. It’s stupid to put special forces in the general order. He has his own tactics and his own application.
                      2. marline
                        marline 26 October 2015 12: 45 New
                        0
                        Quote: Riv
                        Gopnikov in camouflage, I watch every day in the pictures from Ukraine. Are you not from there? I have the impression ...
                        If a dispute arises about penguins tomorrow, will you send me to Cape of Good Hope or to Cape Horn?

                        Quote: Riv
                        "Like" and "like" mean different things.

                        I thought you were writing something original. About tanks and grenade launchers, of course it’s interesting, but not the topic ... What is the difference between the smooth surface 55 cm and 50 HRC and the smooth surface 57 cm and 55 HRC?
                        Quote: Riv
                        If the legate of the legion hired barbarians, then of course he brought them to the perpendicular on a par with the recruits. But then ... For any commander from ancient times to the present day, mercenaries are always special forces. Intelligence, saboteurs, corsairs, arrows ... It has always been that way. It’s stupid to put special forces in the general order. He has his own tactics and his own application.

                        Not an argument at all ... Have you seen tungus or Buryats in our army? (also a kind of barbarian, oh, yes this is "special forces", although if a good hunter ...)
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                      4. Riv
                        Riv 26 October 2015 14: 47 New
                        0
                        I even saw Hungarians in our army. Why what? In our company, the second platoon was a real German commander. Moreover, he finished Suvorov. Fiction by today's times.

                        Gladium with a length of 50 cm differs from that of 57 cm in blade length. I am happy to tell you this secret.

                        Any other questions, my young friend?
                      5. marline
                        marline 26 October 2015 15: 23 New
                        0
                        Quote: Riv
                        Gladium long 50 см differs from smoothness in 57 cm blade length ..

                        Again demonstrate your inability to read ... I did not expect anything else from you ...
                        You have counted the drain.
                      6. Riv
                        Riv 26 October 2015 17: 30 New
                        0
                        Yes? Well, how do you like it in the drain pipe?
                      7. marline
                        marline 26 October 2015 17: 39 New
                        0
                        Quote: Riv
                        Yes? Well, how do you like it in the drain pipe?

                        How witty ... Straight in the style of Polygraph Poligrafovich.
                        However, besides what else to expect from you?
            3. The comment was deleted.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 24 October 2015 18: 17 New
    +1
    Dear Vyacheslav, thanks for the article! I learned a lot for myself, including and what I have not read yet. Now, before the weekend, a good mood.
    1. kalibr
      24 October 2015 23: 13 New
      +1
      What nonsense to put a minus man only for the fact that he showed elementary politeness and thanked for the good mood. This is some kind of sociopathy - you need to be treated for it! Wow, what monsters are hanging around here!
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 25 October 2015 03: 30 New
    0
    Dear Vyacheslav, I think it's not stupidity, but some other emotions. I have an opinion about these emotions. Just after reading a lot of history books, I was interested in historical processes, religion, mythology. And in your articles a new topic for me, about than I am happy and grateful to report. I didn’t have a chance to read special books on weapons, although I could get to the exhibitions .. I sit quietly resting, reading your article. I have nothing to say about weapons, to argue about chronology is pointless, tk. others always say it before me. Again, this is a very big topic about the destruction of history, about foreign projects. But in principle, people here think sensibly and not on the topic. Maybe I would write something about Atlantis, because there are many books, lectures, journals on Atlantology, but not the topic of the article, but by the "ears" you can pull anything. Thanks again.
  • Inco
    Inco 28 October 2015 11: 44 New
    0
    As for metal processing in the ancient world, the further the more questions arise, I won’t be surprised if someday an automatic hammer is found in the Roman Empire. or maybe early.
    Z.Y. In Sumer, they were already familiar with oil, later there was still naphtha (Greek fire) - to what am I, the burning of these leads to an interesting temperature.